sk-lore

[twin dragon]

Yeah he does

[near jasper]

The first word well ignore because its not real

[twin dragon]

tc js made up a word thats crazy

[frosty gate]

Clattorous is also a made up word

[twin dragon]

craws are literate

[frosty gate]

And honestly, I can only assume

Clattorous = Harmonious? Loud?
Spinderous = Trickery

[near jasper]

I wonder how they translated that to other languages

[foggy stratus]

Maybe Spinderous is like dangerous? Or it’s a combination of Spinner and dangerous?

[frosty gate]

No idea how they did it in Spanish, but I could maybe check if I reload my save before I killed Crawfather

[frank dove]

Ah good point mb

[frosty gate]

It could be, I relate it to Trickery because I assume most bugs seem to relate Weavers to Trickery and Deceit

[foggy stratus]

Do common bugs even know what the Weavers did? Their burial shrine things are still standing so I’d assume they’re related to like holiness or divinity.

[frosty gate]

Nah that was lost ages ago

!wiki Weavers

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Weavers

Hollow Knight Wiki

Weavers

The Weavers, also known as the first children, are an all-female tribe of sapient arachnids native to Pharloom. They played an influential role in that kingdom and in other lands such as the kingdom of Hallownest.

[frosty gate]

I think some know something

[near jasper]

What was sinners road before it became a roach pen

[frosty gate]

Oh, nothing to do with the conversation at hand but no wonder people keep thinking that the Weavers fled after GMS was sealed, it's implied to be the case in the wiki

[frosty gate]

Farmlands

[frosty gate]

But the lie never saw the light. Only the Pontiff and the Conductors know

Although Cardi seems to dislike the Weavers

[foggy stratus]

Cardi’s the living Vault Keeper right?

[edgy nebula]

prolky yeah

[edgy nebula]

cardinius yeah

[foggy stratus]

I figured they hated Weavers because they had to listen to them.

[near jasper]

Silkeater was a slur for weavers before it became an animal name

[frosty gate]

Maybe

[twin dragon]

I mean

i consider it to be possible

even if gms was sealed, her very existence still posed a threat to weavers

esp when the citadel weavers still deemed her a "silken burden"

even when the citadel was supposed to work eternally

[frosty gate]

Sure, it is a possibility, but honestly there's a sense of Urgency from Weavenest Cindril

And why make Anklets that make you run faster when you can just walk away, you own the place

You don't gotta flee

GMS wasn't gonna stop them while asleep

[twin dragon]

I mean

suuuure

but then weaver spires are kinda nonsensical

[wispy orchid]

no way

was it actually

[near jasper]

Yes

[twin dragon]

who are they waiting for

[wispy orchid]

where did that come from

[near jasper]

Me i am team cherry

[wispy orchid]

oh

[twin dragon]

the cindril weavers wanted to start anew

[wispy orchid]

idk what team cherry

is

[twin dragon]

they didnt want to go back

[near jasper]

If we're assuming the weavers fled by the point the spires were planned then they should know that the citadel solution wont work forever

[twin dragon]

The spires were planted by the citadel weavers, presumably after the cindril weavers fled

for who and why?

[wispy orchid]

@static citrus what was it

[frosty gate]

The Spires are nonsensical in any case imo because
If the Weavers fled before GMS was put to sleep, the Spires had no reason to wait for an Heir other than a vague hope
If the Weavers fled while GMS was put to sleep, they wanted to start anew, not send one of their descendents to do the job

[frosty gate]

My guess, and the only guess I have because I personally think this is one of those things that had not much thought put into, is that they just had the hope that, at some point, someone would kill GMS

[wispy orchid]

ah

good theory

[twin dragon]

I mean

[wispy orchid]

interesting way to look at it

[frosty gate]

They couldn't possibly know Hornet

[twin dragon]

I think that cindril and citadel weavers were in contact i guess

cindril took off to look for a child but

that can do their job

but

they also wanted to start anew and never return apparently=?

[wispy orchid]

mm

[frosty gate]

Through their silkphones I assume

[twin dragon]

I mean they were weavers under one monarch

[frosty gate]

Ring ring ring ring ring

SILK-PHONE

[twin dragon]

i doubt they were very separated from eachother

[near jasper]

"Kill gms because we're petty no shes not doing us any issues"-herrah

[frosty gate]

Some were in Hallownest

[twin dragon]

Ye but like

the initial plan

this is why other weavers had offspring aswell

[wispy orchid]

wait

[twin dragon]

that was eventually brought back into pharloom presumably by gms or the conductors

[frosty gate]

Did they even say something about having a Child? They probably just wanted to have a normal life far from their despotic mother

[twin dragon]

Nope

but "silken one to weave us free"

smt smt

and yk, the ones that fled had a child

a few actually

[frosty gate]

But that's on the Spires isn't? Not Cindril

[twin dragon]

Yeah, by the citadel, but otherwise it wouldn't make sense

they had to have some connection

[wispy orchid]

oh

[frosty gate]

I wouldn't particularly count on it, but I admire your resolve to hope TC actually has something planned honestly

[twin dragon]

I mean

the way i look at it

it makes sense

its probably a bit misleading with the cindril text n all

[frosty gate]

It would make sense but at the same time we don't got any clue about Weavers communicating like that

[twin dragon]

But considering the citadel weavers also had something planned for a weaverkin in pharloom i wouldn't be surprised

man

[frosty gate]

And the cherry on the cake

[twin dragon]

a few lines of dialogue would go a long way

[frosty gate]

Hallownest Weavers "Went back to their homeland"

YOU DON'T GO BACK TO PHARLOOM IF YOU KNOW WHAT'S UP

[twin dragon]

This got retconned

i mean

the citadel was up

and the infection ravaged the lands

[wispy orchid]

do we now?

[twin dragon]

retconned OR they never came back

[wispy orchid]

have any clue

[twin dragon]

I mean it would make sense considering that they were select few pharlids and lived under one mother

[frosty gate]

We don't even know how this retcon works, maybe they didn't, maybe they did and died, maybe they didn't even go back to Pharloom

[twin dragon]

all of them tried producing something against her aswell

[frosty gate]

What is it?

[twin dragon]

this

[near jasper]

A charm, the thing born from bugs final wishes being where we learn weavers tried going back to pharloom probably isnt a good sign they're doing great

[twin dragon]

I mean most of them died to the infection

Yk

[frosty gate]

I think that the Spires dialogue works even if they didn't have comunication with outside Weavers

[twin dragon]

this can be a good retcon

if it added nothing before

[frosty gate]

Because they would be hoping that someone that fled had the resolve to come back and finish the job

The spires are also weird because like

[twin dragon]

If they didnt have communication they couldn't have known

[frosty gate]

Why the fuck is FS in a Spire

[twin dragon]

that cindril fled

[twin dragon]

Its a barebones one

she got "constricted"

thats her punishment

that's probably a burial rite for them

[frosty gate]

I mean, I think they had communication before everything went to hell

[twin dragon]

i think so too

like, all of their weavenests are very similar looking

[frosty gate]

I personally think that Cindril took advantage of Atla overthrowing GMS

And with that, they fled

And never looked back

[twin dragon]

they wanted to escape "her silken sight"

though

which implies silk was activer

[frosty gate]

Yeah, but that's my point

I dont think GMS went down so easy

[twin dragon]

it could've been during the planning phase

as an alternative

[frosty gate]

I think while Atla was putting her to sleep, Cindril ran away

[twin dragon]

thats why most weavenests are also devoid of any weaver remains

most of them fled

probably

which implies that they were indeed united and had connection

man, a line of dialogue could go a long way 2

[frosty gate]

Definitely, but before the sealed GMS

[frosty gate]

I SWEAR TO GOD

[twin dragon]

The citadel ones remain ye

[frosty gate]

IT TAKES NOTHING TO GIVE US SOMETHING

[near jasper]

How do the Spire dialogues even work

[near jasper]

Is it imprinted in their soul

[frosty gate]

JUST PUT SOME DIALOGUE IN KARN

[wispy orchid]

u gotta click theu them

[frosty gate]

KARN DID NOTHING I HATE THAT NEST SO MUCH

[twin dragon]

make trobbio a songclave recruitable npc and my life is yours

[frosty gate]

Karn is the most irrelevant Nest and gives nothing to the plot other than a shitty SilkSkill

[twin dragon]

sharpdart is goated

[twin dragon]

so is absolum kinda

it had potential

as if the weavers dug far too deep

and didnt look back

[near jasper]

What if karn is the weavenest we see in the widow memory but covered by the wormways

[frosty gate]

Absolum lets us know they thought about using void

Wtf did Karn give?

[near jasper]

Oh yk

[wispy orchid]

souls?

[twin dragon]

is there anything about it?

[near jasper]

How is the silk inside widow still good to bind after so long

Silk expires

[twin dragon]

her body can naturally produce it i think

and is part of her

it expires only for silkborn because they're purely made out of it and lack a biological function to mantain it

[near jasper]

What about the silk in silkeater rooms

[twin dragon]

Idfk how they work, their silk prob isnt soulsilk

[near jasper]

Nah it gives soul

[twin dragon]

uh

[near jasper]

The cocoons

[twin dragon]

idfk theyre beings that adapted to is

silk being around

idk

[near jasper]

Silk just expires naturally because its made from a naturally decomposing thread

Widow should have kidney stones

[twin dragon]

soul doesnt decompose

[near jasper]

The thread

Not the soul

[twin dragon]

she would still have the soul anyways duh

[frosty gate]

Let me check, but the fact that they were in the Abyss is honestly enough to know they wanted to mess with it

[near jasper]

How do the mushrooms in pharloom's mm room grow

[frosty gate]

Or at the very least they thought about it

[frosty gate]

Wdym, they just grow

Spores or something

[near jasper]

From what

[frosty gate]

It's just mushroom, they do that

[near jasper]

What do they consume

The only thing there is rocks and saltwater

[frosty gate]

Fuck I know, they probably just evolved to do that

It's mushrooms

[twin dragon]

mr mushroom essence or smt

he shrooms it all or some shit

[near jasper]

Who wrote the tablet

[twin dragon]

mr mushroom worshippers idfk

the spore hivemid

[frosty gate]

I don't even mean fantasy shit like

Mushrooms really just do that shit

They just grow

[twin dragon]

they fed themselves with the fucking

trace old skin cells of gms when she was descending into pharloom

btw do y'all think gms is shackled?

like her abdomen seems to be specifically shaped to make silk extraction easier

and a pair of her arms is also unable to move

actually nvm she grabs hornet with them literally

what am i saying

maybe it restricts her other arms from popping

nvm her silkless abdomen is also like that

[foggy stratus]

Very odd how Hornet seemingly doesn’t believe in luck.

[blissful harbor]

the gold bits?

i think they serve something similar to chains without being literal chains
even just a design motif

theres the whole gold being related to the citadel, as well as those pieces just kinda popping off of her when binding her

[foggy stratus]

GMS just understood the need for drip

[midnight zinc]

I personally got the impression it was the conductors who adored the citadel with gold, I don’t see why GMS would care about making it pretty.

[blissful harbor]

yes that’s what i meant

[whole holly]

would Vessel solve events in Silksong way hornet does?

i don't see why they would struggle

[near jasper]

They cant get the burial spire skills

[whole holly]

true

but other than that they should be fine-ish at least if they get equivalent help from shamans maybe

i am totally convinced hornet would be able to bind this, i don't have any reason just feelings

[near jasper]

Or yk

Just make the void kill grs

They have voidheart

[whole holly]

they don't have to have Void Heart, they can just focus GMS like they focus Infection and Dreamers

they can focus soul and essence(and infection) from living beings

[foggy stratus]

A vessel(especially TK) jus beats the shit outta GMS.

[whole holly]

true, provided they can't be imprinted/tainted from haunting

[foggy stratus]

Their Void would prolly handle that tbh.

[whole holly]

it works differently than infection, it requires will to resist it, not mind that is of vessel

[near jasper]

Gms versus 1 brick of void with a face

[whole holly]

true, i agree

[whole holly]

i think Vessel will be able to focus entire GMS without turning into Weaver Queen, at most they will turn into Pure Vessel-adjacent, even that may not be true, they will actually be able to solve haunting without Act 3 at least

[foggy stratus]

Hydrogen baby vs coughing "god".

[whole holly]

i don't need you to hate on GMS with that friendly Fire

[fierce narwhal]

this actually made me think the reason why hollow grew so much was because the influence of pale beings like the king

[foggy stratus]

Wait why is it freind;y fire?

[near jasper]

Thk ate fertilizer

[whole holly]

only Higher Beings we can definitively say are stronger than GMS are Lord of Shades and Radiance, with their divine influence

[fierce narwhal]

the king fed the baby pale ore💔

[whole holly]

friendly as way to contribute to discussion, fire - being unnecessary hate on GMS power-scale wise

i also i don't like power-scaling, it doesn't contribute much to discussion

[near jasper]

Powerscalers when i uninstall the game

[whole holly]

but would random vessel be able to absorb Weaver skills?

[fierce narwhal]

true it can be fun but not for this game i feel😭

[near jasper]

The spires have a lock for weaver Spawn only

[fierce narwhal]

my question is, do vessels even have like, crests...?

[whole holly]

we don't really know mechanism behind that? but most likely true, they are expecting weavers to bind them

[whole holly]

most likely no? but we can't be sure

[near jasper]

Their crest is just an empty hole with 11 notches glued in

[whole holly]

Crest is Soul Imprint made from lived experiences

[whole holly]

lol

i don't think it is impossible but it seems related to profession or craft or life purpose, which is why Vessels purpose of them being empty kind of facilitates them having no crest but it seems that by default they have no soul as well, they are said to, also hornet can claim other's crest and that's skill unique to her

[near jasper]

Trying to bind a vessels crest will just kill you with void juice

I think wanderer crest is the crest that tastes closest to beef

[whole holly]

I think Vessel focusing sheer amount of GMS soul might transform them into something like pure vessel

[foggy stratus]

Or it might overcharge and maybe kill them.

[whole holly]

Would that possibly happen ? That usually happens to bugs like Soul Master and they start bloating, Hornet and Vessel can contain skills of many kinds and higher beings as well

They have unique physiology

Hornet doesn’t contain higher being but binds them

[fierce narwhal]

considering that the vessels are children of two whole pale beings who are in general associated with soul i think they can do it

[near jasper]

Weaver queen crest has too much salt

[foggy stratus]

Too much soul in too little time without a proper outlet might cause explosions.

[whole holly]

Me too, they never have shown tendency to not handle soul, they can contain higher being

[fierce narwhal]

honestly i feel like silk tastes like sourdough bread

[whole holly]

It’s fine with infection, I doubt soul is too difficult

[whole holly]

I think it tastes like milk

[foggy stratus]

Yogurt.

[fierce narwhal]

true i always associated that with soul maybe goat milk

[stray fog]

Soul is said to be cold

Its a white liquid

Cold white liquid

[near jasper]

Shaman actually has a real life equivalent that people eat so im skipping it

[whole holly]

Cold milk?

[stray fog]

Idk

[whole holly]

Do you think Vessel can focus GMS?

And also transform?

[near jasper]

Architect Is eating metal but with tiny soul after taste

[stray fog]

It did that with the radiance
Gms doesn't seem far fetched then

[stray fog]

Nah

Vessels don't transform after focusing

[fierce narwhal]

for me witch always gave off like expired mint candy

[whole holly]

I mean I believe sheer amount of soul may change that, also if that’s not case they might gain skills like pale nails

[near jasper]

Def

Hunter and beast Are both very tough to chew meat

[stray fog]

Tk does "absorb" a lot of abilities afterall

[near jasper]

Wanderer crest is very fatty meat

[stray fog]

Soul seems less viscous than yogurt

[whole holly]

Game says consume weirdly, bind is associated with claiming

[stray fog]

Yeah the word was consume

I forgot

[near jasper]

How does salubras blessing work

[whole holly]

No, it tastes like chicken

[fierce narwhal]

i always liked the idea of all the weavers/eva/the ppl she binded for crests are all somewhat conscious and all in her head so the thought of gms whole arm just appearing is rly funny to me

[stray fog]

Do you know about the Sylphean salubra theory?

[near jasper]

The reason rune rage sucks is first sinner has been arguing with the other spire weavers the entire time you had her bound

[stray fog]

Salubra = slug
Sylphean slug = associated with palness = associated with soul
Sylphsong = analogous to salubra's blessing
Salubra = sylphean slug?

[fierce narwhal]

they're each controlling which rune appears where and no one can agree what should it hit or if it even will hit

24/7 backseating in Hornets head bless her soul

[near jasper]

Theres just one of laces organs there after you get her silk heart

[fierce narwhal]

all the silk hearts are being used as balls to be thrown in the air so that they can play flea juggle in there

[near jasper]

Widow and Phantom have been trauma dumping about gms mistreating them

[fierce narwhal]

the random intimidating primal beast crest bug in the corner

[whole holly]

Witch Crest infant screaming and crying In background

[near jasper]

And a chorus just thrown on the floor

[whole holly]

Karn being useless just like she always is

[fierce narwhal]

with a billion spine holes in it like cheese

[near jasper]

Absolom is in the corner getting void withdrawls

[whole holly]

Eva singing 🎵

[near jasper]

"what do you mean you built yourself a burial spire how long did you survive down there"

[whole holly]

Why are weavers so useless unlike Shamans

[fierce narwhal]

aura

poor unnamed greymoor weaver she doesn't have any visible spines to make her look unique but atleast she has thread storm #tho

[near jasper]

What weavenest is in the widow memory

[plain ruin]

None

Weavenests didn’t exist at that time

[near jasper]

What are the doors then

[plain ruin]

Don’t know but that isn’t part of the Weavenests we know

[near jasper]

Also source?

[fierce narwhal]

i think the only one that might have existed is the cradle widow memory room because it has a inactive ceiling lamp thats seen in weavenests and mount fay

[plain ruin]

Weavenests were created for the rebellion against GMS, no?

[near jasper]

Could just be repurposed

Also why build a nest when you're planning to leave forever on cindrils case

[fierce narwhal]

but then again might just be general weaver architecture

[plain ruin]

Those are definitely the same rooms, but I don’t think it was a Weavenest, or at least in the same way we understand them

[fierce narwhal]

yeah i agree

[lone folio]

To make new technology and make plans before they left

[plain ruin]

Cindril houses the map

[near jasper]

Just write it down

[plain ruin]

A map like that is valuable, has to be hidden

[lone folio]

Kind of a stupid idea to run into the wastes unprepared

[plain ruin]

Don’t think that was an option in the eyes of the Weavers

That map has to be hidden away in a place only another Weaver could access

[fierce narwhal]

it might be like a situation where it was like "hey cindril made a map go to her weavenest to see it and run"

[lone folio]

They could of had that map to theorize on where to go

[fierce narwhal]

very true

[near jasper]

They didnt arrive on a conclusion seeing theyre spread out across the whole world

[plain ruin]

The map depicts routes leading out of Pharloom, there is no mention of destinations

[lone folio]

They all found their own path that they thought would work

[fierce narwhal]

i mean i dont think their goal was to ever go to one place

[lone folio]

Either way the building that weavernest wasnt a waste

[plain ruin]

They just followed routes that got them out of Pharloom, from there they likely lacked a map

[fierce narwhal]

weaver named murglin

[lone folio]

Murglin built weapons I think

[plain ruin]

I wonder if we’ll encounter the Murglin burial spire in SoS?

If that dlc adds a spire at all

[fierce narwhal]

im doubtful since i feel like the silkshot is already the most we'll get of her but not impossible

[near jasper]

Acquired the dive
The power of non bouyancy is your

[lone folio]

It doesn't exist because murglin accidently blew himself upp

Obviously

[plain ruin]

We have the needolin memory as well, which is likely Murglin, so we know what she would look like if a spire was added

Kinda looks like First Sinner tbh

[fierce narwhal]

i actually made a image of how every weaver we know of looks like but idk where to post it😭 it's just sprites arranged by order and category

[plain ruin]

Not identical, certainly not FS, but same amount of those little “spike” things some Weavers have on their shoulders

[fierce narwhal]

its more a guideline on how they look like when i finish making my weaver oc

[plain ruin]

I was looking at those a while ago while drafting a Widow theory

Atla’s three Weavers are a mystery

[near jasper]

Atla murglin and michael

[lone folio]

So yeah this point seems pretty solid as every single one had s purpose that could have something to do with rebelling against GMS

[fierce narwhal]

Weaver named A, weaver named T and weaver named La duh

[lone folio]

Except that one guy in wormwsys

[near jasper]

Except karn

[lone folio]

He was useless

[lone folio]

Yeah

[steep gyro]

Oh yeah this is the channel I was looking for

[plain ruin]

Karn’s role was likely lost to the sands

[fierce narwhal]

LEAVER HER ALONE SHE JUST LIKED WORMS!!!

[steep gyro]

Who's karn again?
The crust king khann?

[plain ruin]

Sharpdart

[near jasper]

The weavenest

In wormways

[tiny marlin]

[steep gyro]

Oh i see
So where these places like experiment places for the weavers? Or just hideouts? I think its both

[lone folio]

WORMS WONT KILL A GOD

[near jasper]

They're just weaver nests

[lone folio]

Yeah something like that

[plain ruin]

Actually Karn could’ve been one of the three Atla memory Weavers

[lone folio]

They are rebellion bases

[plain ruin]

She looks like the leftmost one, three small sets of spikes from shoulder to waist

[fierce narwhal]

SHE DIDN'T MAKE ANYTHING IN TIME SHE JUST WANTED TO DIE WITH HER WORMS AND HOPED FOR THE BEST

[near jasper]

Weavers really never got post their pharlid Era of building nests in baren stone

Until hallownest

[steep gyro]

I'm still wondering how the fuck they made their nests with like no arms

Or even like the whole citedal

[lone folio]

Each one served a function that was meant to help in the rebellion in whatever way the weavers in that weavernest believed was gonna get them free from GMS

[lone folio]

They have arms

[fierce narwhal]

i mean you can make plenty of stuff with just your legs if you're really skilled at it

[lone folio]

Widow has arms

[plain ruin]

The Citadel has definitely changed since they left

[steep gyro]

Dinasour type shit arms lol

[plain ruin]

Pious Isamor is proof of that

[fierce narwhal]

also they have claws so😭

[plain ruin]

As is Cogwork Core

[steep gyro]

Oh yeah
Maybe she's different? Looking at the first sinner
She has like no arms

[plain ruin]

First Sinner has arms

[fierce narwhal]

she does actually she just hides them really well

[plain ruin]

She just also has a dress

[steep gyro]

Oh i see

[lone folio]

All weavers are the same except for a few details

[steep gyro]

Hmmm

[lone folio]

And in FS's case brain damage

[steep gyro]

Also wait
In the scene when hornet gets her nedolin
You can see the weavers playing the harps and they have like arms but realy small

[fierce narwhal]

i dont fink its brain damage she just looks like that

[steep gyro]

Wait actually?

[lone folio]

I was joking

[steep gyro]

That's just a mask too not part of her body

[plain ruin]

FS looked like that from the start

[lone folio]

It is a part of her body

[fierce narwhal]

i mean bugs can be born with masks aswell

[near jasper]

I think first sinners mask just exploded because she had too much rage

[steep gyro]

Didn't know about that

[plain ruin]

No

[lone folio]

Did you see the pharlid ascension cutscene?

[near jasper]

Yes

[plain ruin]

First Sinner’s mask has always looked cracked

[lone folio]

I wonder why that happened

[steep gyro]

The one where GMS wins when hornet is binding?

[plain ruin]

Methinks she looks like that because she was the first Weaver, a bit of a prototype

GMS learned from ascending FS

[lone folio]

No when a small pharlid gets turned into a weaver

[plain ruin]

That’s why every other Weaver has a round mask

[fierce narwhal]

also if it was the line in the middle would be straight but it isnt, it's just a more primal version of the general weaver mask

[steep gyro]

Oooh yeah
Definitely
It's realy interesting

[near jasper]

Was first sinner imprisoned alive or did they build the jail around her burial spire

[lone folio]

I wonder if a pharlid diver ever got turned into a weaver

[edgy nebula]

alive probably

[lone folio]

I saw a theory that herrah was a pharlid diver but I'm not that sure about the theory

[fierce narwhal]

up to debate there's a lot of odd things going on with fs and her cage in general

[near jasper]

How the fuck did she get a spire

[steep gyro]

Ari Gibson's way of potreying bugs in HK is realy cool
Like i never thought anyone can turn a scary looking spider from rl into a sick bad ass design
Or turn the disgusting looking fleas
Into cute little fluff balls in game

[edgy nebula]

that's a headcanon with no proof

[fierce narwhal]

i feel like she just evolved from a normal pharlid with just a pointy mask instead of a round one

[near jasper]

What if shes just ugly

[plain ruin]

I think Herrah looks like that because of the Dreamer process

[lone folio]

You might be onto something

[steep gyro]

No? I mean we saw her design too in red memory
So nothing have changed

[edgy nebula]

her design is different in red memory

[plain ruin]

Those masks they wear are clearly a key component for the seals, and the mask was added

[edgy nebula]

she has the basic weaver body instead of the one she has in hk

[fierce narwhal]

i mean hornet had to have gotten that mask shape from somewhere

[plain ruin]

Herrah even says “before the mask”

[edgy nebula]

beer belly retcon

[lone folio]

I feel like that grub body is a retcon

[steep gyro]

Yall have printed their designs into your heads huh?

[plain ruin]

PK could’ve played a direct role

[lone folio]

Some role yes but the head shape is too similar

[fierce narwhal]

true but i just dont think he did i think she just had a normal weaver body with a pointy mask before she gave birth

[plain ruin]

And Herrah’s body almost certainly changed due to birthing Hornet

[edgy nebula]

her body is the exact same after hornet was birthed

[fierce narwhal]

standard weaver body* nothing about the weavers is normal 😭

[plain ruin]

We never see her body before the birth of Hornet

[steep gyro]

They're a gaint head with stick bodies

[edgy nebula]

do you think she was fat before birthing hornet, very quickly lost weight, and then gained the weight back?? 😭

[plain ruin]

And she is the only Weaver we see who has given birth, and yet she looks unlike any other weaver

[steep gyro]

You can send images? Why can't I?

[near jasper]

Herrah is just ugly yheory stays winning

[fierce narwhal]

sidenote i love her design so much shes so pretty

[near jasper]

You need 300 messages

[near jasper]

Ok fork

[edgy nebula]

you need to have 300 messages

[plain ruin]

She’s clearly larger than the other Weavers in this image, just look at her cloak.

[steep gyro]

Aight thx you two

Gotta start grinding

[edgy nebula]

not really she seems about the same

[steep gyro]

Tiny hornet so cute

[plain ruin]

TC might’ve altered her size a little between games, but regardless she is clearly larger than the other Weavers

[steep gyro]

The entire red memory was fucking peak cinema bro

Genuinely insane

I started tweaking out when I saw the stag sign

https://tenor.com/view/todo-jjk-todo-peak-its-so-peak-it's-so-peak-gif-12631077882600129156

[lone folio]

Is she though??

[plain ruin]

Compare this to the other red memory weavers

[steep gyro]

No gifs 😔

[plain ruin]

They look so different

[fierce narwhal]

another sidenote but this makes me think did all the dreamers have red cloaks originally? the statues of lurien look kinda red

[plain ruin]

Herrah is so clearly larger

[edgy nebula]

i think it's just the cloak ngl

also the weavers are crouching much lower than herrah

[plain ruin]

That makes no sense

[steep gyro]

Same
The cloak makes her look like that

[fierce narwhal]

like if the weavers just stood up they'd be the same height

also just in general weavers are TALL

[near jasper]

Herrah is just ugly

[fierce narwhal]

she was pretty enough to get with 2 kings tho #owned

[plain ruin]

We have seen her body in HK, we can see that she is large. Is it so far-fetched to say that the fact that her cloak looks like this in the Red Memory is because it is covering a larger torso than a Weaver would normally have?

[steep gyro]

The other king?

[near jasper]

Deepnest sire

[fierce narwhal]

king of deepnest though we know lickety split abt him im just joking

[lone folio]

Like if you compare to how big they were compared to adult hornet they seem really similar aside from the horns

[edgy nebula]

she is HUGE in hk i really think she just has a normal weaver body

[steep gyro]

First time I know about a king in deepnest

[candid linden]

theres a king?

dude

[fierce narwhal]

was presumably

[edgy nebula]

yes

[candid linden]

Weavers all are girls

lol

what

???

[edgy nebula]

the king wasnt a weaver

[steep gyro]

Maybe she ate a lot before going for the long sleep (becoming a dreamer)

[fierce narwhal]

deepnests king is probably native to hallownest

[plain ruin]

Again, I think her size was retconned a bit, but she would still be larger than the other Weavers, which I think would have to do with the fact that she gave birth

[steep gyro]

How many kings were there in Hallownest?
Mantis king?
Fool king?
Deepnest king?

[plain ruin]

Deepnest King was from Deepnest

[fierce narwhal]

i don't fink the mantis tribe had a monarchy but like atleast 3

[plain ruin]

Probably inherited the throne from the previous rulers

[edgy nebula]

pale king, vengefly king, deepnest king, and other than that im not sure

[plain ruin]

Deepnest dynasty

[fierce narwhal]

maybe he was a really big centipede

[steep gyro]

There were 4 lords
But one of them went to the corruption path because it was male and weak I think?

[plain ruin]

Traitor Lord wanted strength

[edgy nebula]

traitor lord thought the infection would make him strong

[fierce narwhal]

yes but lord doesn't really equal king ik this is terminology babble tho

[edgy nebula]

i dont think it's ever stated he was weak before though

oh right tk is also the king

cause they took kings brand

[steep gyro]

Yeah so the kngiht became the pale king when he did that right?

Also the place where the knight got the kings brand
Is that the true form of PK?

[fierce narwhal]

not thee pale king but they did become the king

[fierce narwhal]

previous form but yes

[plain ruin]

Cast-Off Shell is from the PK’s Wyrm form

The egg inside, the one you collect the brand from, is where he was reborn as the PK we know and love

[steep gyro]

Shit PK was insane back then

[fierce narwhal]

i saw this post somewhere which said that the pale kings eyes are mimics and he's just constantly looking up all the time which is funny to me

[edgy nebula]

or know and hate depending on how much you wanna paint him as chaotic evil

[fierce narwhal]

i mean you can also both love and hate him aswell

[steep gyro]

I wonder if we're gonna see city of steel in silksong

Probably not

[plain ruin]

We’ll be seeing Sharpe at some point

It’s not impossible

[steep gyro]

Yeah that's is confirmed

[fierce narwhal]

random but i always felt like the golden limbs and leg scissor thingies weren't always a part of gms's body rather somehow related to how she was put to sleep

[steep gyro]

I always thought that the steel assassins would be something thst you will encounter randomly when playing the game from time to time
Trying to hunt you down or slow your process of reaching the citadel

I think that's how they were gonna work

Just like how when you're walking through the citadel
Sometimes one of those spider robots appear and take your silk

Something like that

[fierce narwhal]

she's also described as frayed so maybe in her prime they were originally made out of pale ore? like pale ore armor

[steep gyro]

True
Feels like someone put that there instead of something else

But what it could be

Tinderles

Human legs maybe?

[fierce narwhal]

i did see a really good post on Tumblr how she fights very very similarly to widow, y'know never really using silk itself to attack like at all, she instead makes use of the environment with silk and only uses her claws which is very cool to me

[steep gyro]

She litrally have attacks from all of the enemies in the game
Especially with widow
Which is why it was so easy to defeat her
Because all of her attacks were kinda predictable

[fierce narwhal]

also she never actually uses the pale nails skill she uses the scissors blades instead

[steep gyro]

Another attack like the FS

[marble oasis]

Ironically LL has an attack more similar to PN

[fierce narwhal]

also when you bind her, you can see her face is very similar to how phantoms face looks like, all frayed and stuff

[marble oasis]

That’s because you’re actively unravelling her, what?

[fierce narwhal]

that is true actually

mask maker does call her frayed and he seems to know alot so i do think she's actively unraveling anyway

that's why she needs to get her yearly fill of weaver descendants found at your local Walmart

[marble oasis]

I don’t have a local Walmart

[steep gyro]

One thing I'm confused with is that
Why did she leave phantom but choose lace

[steep gyro]

Me too

[marble oasis]

Can I make them at home?

[fierce narwhal]

that's why you need to go weavenest cindril to find one! (i dont have one either)

[steep gyro]

Probably

[marble oasis]

phantom was probably made unconsciously and then trapped by the citadel before gms could properly communicate with her

[near jasper]

Phantom probably got her own identity away from what gms liked

As by them having a mask

[steep gyro]

Huh

So she isn't a great mother at all

Ig she never was

[fierce narwhal]

i mean the memory in the organ says "discarded" so it might've been intentional? we rly dont know

[steep gyro]

So there is no answer huh?

[near jasper]

I mean id expect that more from phantom rotting to death while still working but yk

[fierce narwhal]

i guess you can say she wasn't GRAND

[steep gyro]

Ig you can say she wasn't a MOTHER

[marble oasis]

Why would you spin a child born loyal and stick her in the keep-the-citadel-going machine though

[fierce narwhal]

i don't have an answer to that question sadly

we just genuinely dont know how or when phantom and lace were born, like lace calling herself a knight is that an official title given by the citadel? does the citadel even see her as one of their court...?

[marble oasis]

She’s a knight because she serves the queen

The citadel doesn’t really have proper mobility

[steep gyro]

Also I never really understood what lace meant when we defeated her at the place where after it we fight gms

[marble oasis]

Which bit

[steep gyro]

All of it

Like does she say

"gms likes you more than me, dammit"

Idk

[plain ruin]

Lace is upset because of the attention GMS is giving Hornet

[steep gyro]

Oh yeah smth like that it was

[steep gyro]

But what attention tho?

[fierce narwhal]

i mean gms is actively binding weaver descendants meanwhile presumably giving little to no attention to lace, if she even can

[plain ruin]

GMS wants to capture and bind Hornet, same as she wants to do for every Weaver descendant

[fierce narwhal]

lace does seem very willing to die, maybe she wishes gms would bind her back...?

like i wish i was never born type of deal

[plain ruin]

Lace just wants GMS to treat her like a daughter

Attention, love, all that

[steep gyro]

Ok this makes it clear for me now thx

[plain ruin]

She feels disregarded completely, especially given the fate of Phantom

[steep gyro]

So in the end
She finally gives her attention by trying to save her from the void?

[fierce narwhal]

i wonder if she even knew what those concepts were, only learning about them when she saw the pilgrims and their devotion to the citadel

[plain ruin]

Lace lashes out and rescues Hornet by slicing off the arm of GMS, and GMS constructs a cocoon in the void to protect Lace because she actually does love Lace

[steep gyro]

She actually loves lace but never gives her attention to begin with?
What kind of love is that

[fierce narwhal]

i mean both she's probably unable to and a lot of mother's are just like that

[plain ruin]

The kind of love that a Pale Being would show to their children

PK raised THK and sealed it away, he loved THK anyways but he sure as hell didn’t like to show it

[steep gyro]

Still
Damn the story of this game is just...I don't have words

[plain ruin]

GMS also had the betrayal of the Weavers on her mind at all times, likely making it harder to actively be a good mother to Lace

[steep gyro]

True true

[plain ruin]

She spun Lace to be a child born loyal, but surely she was afraid she too would rebel, deep down at least

[steep gyro]

She was too focused on her revenge probably

[plain ruin]

But deep down she still cared about Lace, it just took the threat of inevitable death for it to come out

[steep gyro]

Herrah is the best mother here
Wait actually the white lady too
Oh and vespa

Peak mothers

[fierce narwhal]

i mean maybe it wasn't even revenge only? its described that the haunting is inherently a sad feeling, so maybe the binding of descendants is in her own mind, some cruel form of being able to reunite with her children

i do think shes mad at them but i dont think its anger that drives her

[plain ruin]

There is some level of revenge to it

[fierce narwhal]

yes very

[steep gyro]

Hmmm sadness could be the case too
Were was the haunting described like that in game? By who or where?

[plain ruin]

Pavo

[fierce narwhal]

after freeing bellhart by Pavo

[steep gyro]

Oh I see
Damn yall are answering All my questions that I have been wondering through my playthroughs
Thx a lot

Especially Frito and Kassandra

[fierce narwhal]

always happy to help!

dont forget to form your own theories and interpretations aswell not everything we say is complete gospel

also i just realized i can send images I CAN FINALLY POST IT YAY

[plain ruin]

You’ve got Keelal mixed up with Clawline

[steep gyro]

Those unused FS and widow crawling frames give me the weird feels lol

[fierce narwhal]

yeah i noticed that😭 fml

[steep gyro]

Holdup all of these statues are different???? I actually never noticed that

I thought they were the same

[fierce narwhal]

i was trying to find her sprite in my gallery for the longest time i knew i was missing someone

[steep gyro]

Yeah like tell me if their arms not short

[fierce narwhal]

back to ibis paint x i go

[steep gyro]

Yooo an ibis paint enjoyer here
Let's gooo

[plain ruin]

Can’t blame you, only reason I remember is because of how hard it is to see the “bullhorns” on the clawline weaver, had to load up a file and reset back to before I got clawline to look at the spire a while back

[fierce narwhal]

yea i remember her having downward spines so i mixed them up

also manually erasing the black airbrush outline from the weaverspire ones was TORTURE i was always checking if i messed something up😭

only one that was easy was the greymoor one because she has no spines at all

[steep gyro]

Why did you do that tho? Probably would have looked cool with that maybe

[fierce narwhal]

its more of a me thing where im trying to design my own weaver oc so having a clear look at the spines would help me personally

[steep gyro]

Oh I see now

[fierce narwhal]

like for the longest time i didn't know absolom had two horizontal spines connecting to her larger vertical spines i thought it was just one

[steep gyro]

You could have used a drawing tool for that
You can manually choose and edit the lines where you want to remove

I use that all the time both for drawing and erasing

[fierce narwhal]

true but i like torturing myself sadly

[steep gyro]

For the longest time I always thought all of them looked the same except for herrah and widow 💀

[marble oasis]

Everything I say is

I don’t say anything without extensive sources and a peer reviewed basis

[marble oasis]

Is unused cauldron weaver?

[fierce narwhal]

nope thats the one i mislabeled with keelal

unused is to my knowledge just never used at all ingame

[marble oasis]

Who’s Keelal then

[fierce narwhal]

keelal for reference

[marble oasis]

📝 🐀

[fierce narwhal]

aka cling grip

omfg i accidentally relabeled some text i was planning to delete omfg😭

[marble oasis]

Did you mean to edit out the white eyes of the Deepnest one

[fierce narwhal]

NOW fully updated

[fierce narwhal]

yes more just a personal pet peeve so that they're relatively cohesive

[marble oasis]

This is for comparison’s sake though no

[fierce narwhal]

more just for myself because im designing a weaver oc I've stated this a few times

more like a reference sheet than anything

[marble oasis]

Okay sorry

[fierce narwhal]

its fine!

[near jasper]

Put hornets entire spritesheet in the corner

[fierce narwhal]

i was planning on adding these two but one just doesn't have any spines so it would be kinda redundant for me and the other is... odd to say the least😭

[near jasper]

Oh hell nah

That aint a weaver thats a silker

[marble oasis]

Here’s an unused weaver with horns

Fuck

You have it

[fierce narwhal]

they're both unused, the first is from the original way to get the needolin and the second is a scrapped vfx that would be used for the spires

[near jasper]

Wait wheres the unused memory weaver meant to appear

[fierce narwhal]

we do not know sadly, maybe the itty bitty tiny weavenest in mount fay

maybe shes somewhere in a specific area if i dig around with the unity explorer mod tho

[near jasper]

It looks like shes kneeling to worship

Maybe its in the cradle

[fierce narwhal]

she could also be sitting on something

with the way her dress is folded

[near jasper]

Its karn doing a single useful thing once

[fierce narwhal]

if only, sadly this one has downward facing spikes

[near jasper]

What were wormways during the coral gorge age

In the lore

[fierce narwhal]

only when making the image i realized they love reusing this specific spine design its kinda funny😭

slightly tweaked between all but similar nonetheless

[marble oasis]

Wormin’

Probably did used to be moister though considering MG

[fierce narwhal]

the worms also probably looked like the fossils seen in the spikes of the area

[edgy nebula]

probably full of coral and water

probably less worms

[limpid summit]

Herrah if TC just went all the way with the retcon

[marble oasis]

You would say that

[shy sorrel]

Why wasn’t Skarrgard in Skarrsinger’s fight?

[near jasper]

Because the gauntlet would get too long

[foggy stratus]

Not their job to guard Karmalita.

[shy sorrel]

But the scouts from act 1 get to appear?

[foggy stratus]

They’re in the crowd.

[shy sorrel]

i see

Why do like 4 minions come out besides the guards anyways

[foggy stratus]

To help.

[shy sorrel]

theres like an entire army in there tho

[foggy stratus]

Stage fright.

[shy sorrel]

[marble oasis]

He’s too fat

He would take up like half the arena

[edgy nebula]

they hated him cause he spoke the truth

[near jasper]

How did karn even get allowed by the karak to build inside their territory

Do you think you can unnatach laces croissant hair like a lego piece

[foggy stratus]

Yes.

[marble oasis]

Karak probably started drying in weaver era no?

[near jasper]

They only died fully by the haunting starting

I dont think so

Also wormways is not that Far from their home even if they did

They had half of pharloom at a time

[fierce narwhal]

maybe she was really really secretive about it and they didn't notice

[near jasper]

Wait we never hear of any currency or see anything for sale in the old heart age of pharloom

Did the citadel introduce capitalism

[marble oasis]

It was the upper half

[plain ruin]

The Citadel's currency system probably just drowned out everything else

Either that or the older societies didn't participate in trade, or they might've used bartering or something

[shy sorrel]

makes sense

Also why do some enemies hate or fight eachother

Like the shellwood hunters killing the waterbugs or gurr the outcast and his enemy collection

[near jasper]

Gurr isnt haunted he's just like that

[shy sorrel]

wth

[plain ruin]

None of the mottled skarr are haunted

Gurr, the merchant, the curvesickle dude

All free of the haunting, all mottled

[marble oasis]

Shellwood hunters do it for food

Gurr is just evil

He gives mottled skarr a bad name

[near jasper]

Did since they're husks by now

[shy sorrel]

Howd he even manage to kill a grand reed theres like 3-5 of them

[near jasper]

Oh yk

[shy sorrel]

wait no howd he even enter the citadel

[marble oasis]

and?

[plain ruin]

Gurr's a stealthy dude

[near jasper]

Oh yk

[marble oasis]

Haunting makes you endlessly repeat the task you had in life

[plain ruin]

Probably snuck in

[shy sorrel]

???

[near jasper]

:3

[marble oasis]

Who says the grand reeds didn’t leave

[shy sorrel]

Bro hes giant

[marble oasis]

He’s a trapper not a hunter

[shy sorrel]

Theyre always inside tho

[plain ruin]

Doesn't matter too much

[shy sorrel]

on the higher floor

[marble oasis]

Reeds and Choristors and Envoys leave

On Weaverspawn missions at the very least

There’s also Memorium, they had to collect all that shit somehow

[plain ruin]

There's also that dead group in Bilewater

[near jasper]

Probably how gurr learned a pale being was coming too

[plain ruin]

and that one patrol over in Mount Fay

[shy sorrel]

Oh yeah why does bilewater have a lot of citadel enemies too

[near jasper]

To drain soul from

[plain ruin]

The Stilkin absolutely despises the Citadel

[shy sorrel]

Why

[marble oasis]

Why do you say that?

[plain ruin]

Pollution

[shy sorrel]

uhh

[marble oasis]

I think that’s the citadel trying to reach Mask Maker

[plain ruin]

Gurr's probably been stalking Hornet for a while

[near jasper]

How the hell would he just know hornet is a pale Being

[finite wind]

The quest is called the great hunt

He was hunting you

[shy sorrel]

still if theyre both possessed it doesnt make sense theyd kill eachother

[marble oasis]

Fucking look at her

[plain ruin]

Valid theory

[marble oasis]

yeah but it’s not like he planned it out from an envoy mission

He just saw her in hunters march and far fields

[finite wind]

Idk what envoy means but he planned it

The mission was fake

[marble oasis]

The weaverspawn capture missions

[near jasper]

Envot the dudes

[plain ruin]

Gurr's smart

[marble oasis]

Pale is one of those things you can just see in universe

[plain ruin]

Probably figured out Hornet was pale through simple observations

[marble oasis]

It’s their word for “white and glows”

[near jasper]

I might be sturpid

[finite wind]

Still don't know what you're talking about but it's too late, food night

[plain ruin]

And Pale Beings have a certain atmosphere to them, it seems

[near jasper]

The enemies called envoys from the intro

Also good night

[plain ruin]

Karm, Mask Maker, Caretaker, they all instantly recognize Hornet for what she really is

[marble oasis]

The dudes who captured Hornet at the start of the game are Envoys, they also appear in the Citadel

[near jasper]

https://tenor.com/view/sleepy-cat-kitty-gif-13695833556276623938

[marble oasis]

Chapel Maid also recognises Hornet’s “focus” in a way that implies something other than just determination to get to the Citadel

[marble oasis]

I also think it’s the equivalent of seeing someone wearing purple in ancient times

You can tell they must be rich

[plain ruin]

Yeah

[marble oasis]

Same way in HK you see someone white and glowing you can tell they’re powerful

(In a specific way)

[trail wagon]

she's predominantly black though

[marble oasis]

Her head is like 60% of her surface area and probably 90% of her weight

Look at that fuckin thing

[limpid summit]

I think if you measured her volume she would be mostly white

Get that yam off yo face

[marble oasis]

Makes me so sad she didn’t just ram bitches when she lost her needle

Taste these pale horns fuck ass

[trail wagon]

Bro, try better

[marble oasis]

You bouta see why they call me hornet

[marble oasis]

White != Pale try again

What’s SL got to do with this

[trail wagon]

just kinda making fun of this

no serious argument here

[shy sorrel]

Why does seth guard nyleth?

[trail wagon]

however I think pale beings just have some aura

[trail wagon]

cause he shrine guardian

[shy sorrel]

ah

[trail wagon]

I think his cloak works similarly to Quirrel's mask

[shy sorrel]

is green prince strong when not in verdania?

[limpid summit]

Define strong

Oh like heart power?

[trail wagon]

Definite weak without the green prince 2

[limpid summit]

I mean his inherent heart power seems based on his partner cause it’s just the tornadoes

He’s probably pretty fast and strong regardless

[trail wagon]

he got captured though

[plain ruin]

He's horribly depressed

[limpid summit]

He let himself

[trail wagon]

And didn't break out of the cage even though he probably could

[limpid summit]

Still weak though

Weakest heart for sure

[trail wagon]

Well, yeah, I mean mentally 100% weak

[shy sorrel]

howd a boss get captured lmao

[marble oasis]

He is very fast and can blow his opponents

wait

[trail wagon]

btw, how did that happen? Is there any info?

[trail wagon]

?

[marble oasis]

Kid named first sinner:

[trail wagon]

Wellllll she got captured by GMS and stuff like that

[barren beacon]

So like the thing that replaces Styxx in Steel Soul could be a Nosk right?

[trail wagon]

super hard super cool

[plain ruin]

Nah, other Weavers

[shy sorrel]

howd she get captured too

[trail wagon]

they're both prolly the same thing

[limpid summit]

“Romino why are you going to go siege verdania again bro”

[barren beacon]

Maybe

[plain ruin]

GMS was asleep by the time First Sinner was imprisoned

[trail wagon]

I don't think so, it doesn't make any sense

[marble oasis]

She mummified herself and then got her statue dragged off into the jail

[shy sorrel]

oh

[plain ruin]

The Citadel symbol is on the door of the cage

[marble oasis]

The statue shows signs of being moved

[trail wagon]

GMS controls the Citadel now

[marble oasis]

Is this why they removed the mask from blasted steps

[limpid summit]

She probably got beat bad and went somewhere to die

[trail wagon]

They're using the same symbol

[limpid summit]

https://tenor.com/view/speed-ishowspeed-speed-stream-ishowspeed-stream-speed-nod-gif-1082323842437565509

[plain ruin]

She's the first penitent imprisoned in the Slab, she was captured long, long before the Haunting

[trail wagon]

I mean honestly I wish TC made the difference between eras of the Citadel clearer

[plain ruin]

and after GMS had been put to sleep, hence the Citadel symbol on the door

First Sinner was imprisoned by the other Weavers because her knowledge threatened the religion they had created to justify their false divinity and rule over Pharloom

[limpid summit]

True…

[plain ruin]

If the origins of the Weavers became common knowledge, the system falls apart

[trail wagon]

You can find the Atla effigy, which kinda implies The FS is Atla

[limpid summit]

Also true

[trail wagon]

She was supposedly leading the Weaver revolution

I don't see why the Weavers would imprison her

[plain ruin]

Doesn't matter once the revolution is completed

[trail wagon]

Prolly true as well

[plain ruin]

First Sinner knew that they were not divine, she knew that they were common bugs elevated to appear divine

[limpid summit]

She helped lead the revolution but once it was over and the citadel was in place what she discovered could inadvertently dismantle it

[marble oasis]

she was in on the saviour plan though

[trail wagon]

But her dialogues don't say anything suggesting she's angry at other Weavers

[marble oasis]

which was very late

[plain ruin]

Not necessarilly

[marble oasis]

yes necessarily

[plain ruin]

The dialogue says "Reclaim the future of our accursed kingdom"

[marble oasis]

she has almost the same lines as all the other ones

[limpid summit]

Why do weaver burial spires besides FS say “haunted kingdom”

[plain ruin]

Not haunted, cursed

[limpid summit]

Are they pseudo aware like the AC member

[plain ruin]

Perhaps the Weavers are the curse in her eyes

[limpid summit]

Or is haunted just a word they’re using independently of the haunting

[plain ruin]

Their false rule, their lies

[trail wagon]

She is specifically angry at GMS. She views silk as the curse. GMS gave them silk. She also says "wait and hate, wait and die" which relates to the last word of the weavers talking about "waiting for someone to weave us free".

She also says OUR silk, OUR rage, implying unity with other Weavers

It would be awkward if she was betrayed by other Weavers and none of her thoughts reflected that

[plain ruin]

She's likely angry at both GMS and the other Weavers

[marble oasis]

The weavers all died long before the haunting

[plain ruin]

She's just pissed at everything

[trail wagon]

Because she views SILK as the curse. The problem is not that it's just haunted, the problem is that there's silk in it at all

[limpid summit]

I know but then why

[marble oasis]

The spectre of Silk looms over everything that’s pretty haunted

[limpid summit]

Yeah that’s what I mean

Was haunted just what they called it

[trail wagon]

Which of the dialogues suggest the latter?

[marble oasis]

Yeah

Although putting on the Doylism cap it’s a holdover from early development when Haunting only referred to the new Infection and they wanted to really push that

[plain ruin]

There's no indication that she willingly let herself be imprisoned

If I was imprisoned by my former family, I'd be pissed at them too

[trail wagon]

Well, I've heard a pretty good theory that can explain that too. The other weaver mummies are actually still alive (at least in some sense) and are aware of the Haunting, while the FS is dead, and the fight takes places in the memory

[trail wagon]

Of course she didn't

[limpid summit]

It makes sense that FS was imprisoned by the Weavers but since the spire was moved into the Slab postmortem it’s possible they didn’t even actually fight so it makes sense that she doesn’t mention them

[marble oasis]

FS is just as “alive” as the others

[limpid summit]

It’s not them she’s actually angry at it’s GMS

[trail wagon]

I don't see how it makes sense. Why? Where's any evidence of that?

[limpid summit]

She might have stretched herself too thin researching or whatever and died in fury

[marble oasis]

You hear the same laboured breathing outside the cell as you do next to every other Weaver statue

[limpid summit]

What’s rhe alternative

[trail wagon]

Other than the Citadel logo

[trail wagon]

GMS

[limpid summit]

When

Post Conductors?

The slab is part of the citadel

[trail wagon]

We know that GMS has captures other Weavers, why wouldn't she capture the FS/Atla too?

[trail wagon]

Yeah, why not?

[trail wagon]

True

[plain ruin]

How would she capture her?

She's been in this prison for a damn long time

[trail wagon]

Idk, the same way they imprisoned the other ones, no idea how they did that

[trail wagon]

I'm not sure there's anything necessarily suggesting that

to be honest

[plain ruin]

She can't just send her haunted envoys out to break into the cage, pick up her burial spire and bring her up to the Cradle

[limpid summit]

“Within this cage I have waited” and her general vibe doesn’t seem to suggest she just got locked in there by GMS it suggests a long time

[plain ruin]

She's the First Sinner, she's the first resident of the Slab

[limpid summit]

She’s locked behind the very last slab key

[trail wagon]

That is true too, but maybe not THAT long, plus we don't really know when the Haunting started

[plain ruin]

Those weren't full Weavers, and some of them were wounded at the time

Or just old

[limpid summit]

It also doesn’t make sense for first sinner to be locked up for apostasy at that point the weavers didn’t even matter to GMS

[trail wagon]

I don't think her being the FIRST sinner means she was the first to be imprisoned. I think the Slab was used by the Weavers too, and it's likely that the penitents we see were imprisoned by them. The FIRST implies she was the FIRST Weaver to rebel against the GMS imo

[limpid summit]

The slab was likely created by the weavers yeah

[plain ruin]

The rebellion was a group project

[limpid summit]

Considering old penitent was drawn down

[trail wagon]

Widow is captured too. She is pretty much confirmed to be a full Weaver

[trail wagon]

Yes, but it's suggested that the FS was also cursed by the "knowledge". She might've been the first one to find out about their past

[plain ruin]

Widow had her mask removed and her silk capabilities restricted by other Weavers as well, not GMS. Widow has always been loyal to GMS

[trail wagon]

Where is it said that it was done by other Weavers?

[plain ruin]

First Sinner was the only one who knew about their origins, yes

[plain ruin]

One sec

[trail wagon]

I know about the cut cutscene, if anything

[plain ruin]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Silksong/comments/1rn2505/just_realized_something_about_widow_the_first/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[limpid summit]

First sinner is also trapped by silk runes

Which GMS doesn’t really create

So those were weavers who learned from her

[trail wagon]

Well, perhaps Widow is actually the twelfth of the first

and she has committed an unnamed sin

it can also be GMS

GMS is not interested in having powerful Weavers with an ability to potentially rebel

So why not lobotomize her?

[plain ruin]

Why would Widow be anywhere nearby in the first place

[trail wagon]

because she didn't rebel against the GMS perhaps

[plain ruin]

And so there would be no reason to break her

The other Weavers would have a reason to do this

[trail wagon]

I mean yeah, the idea that she clashed with other Weavers is also plausible

Yeah, true

[plain ruin]

And so they did, cast her into exile afterwards

[trail wagon]

But idk about the FS still. I don't think it necessarily makes sense

She is the direct opposite of the Widow

[plain ruin]

Both posed threats to the Weaver's system of rule

[trail wagon]

I've heard a theory that they wanted to lock her away so she wouldn't spread this information. But I don't think there's any proof of that

It doesn't necessarily mean that

[plain ruin]

One possessed knowledge that could destroy the foundations of the religion they created, the other threatened to awaken the one meant to be caged by their religion

[plain ruin]

There's not much proof of anything in HK lore, that's why we gotta make theories

[limpid summit]

Well we know the weavers locked her away

Ballador calls them “bitter” and we know they “lavished in their false rule”

[trail wagon]

I mean it's also said a couple of times in different dialogues that the Weavers have this innate desire for power

[trail wagon]

true too

[limpid summit]

So any notion of their lack of divinity would not only be insulting but it might stall motivation from the pilgrims (pre cogwork core) and allow GMS to wake

Them imprisoning FS would make sense

[trail wagon]

I see no reason to think the FS was communist and wanted equal rights for both the Weavers and non-Weavers, and the Weavers had to tone her down

[plain ruin]

what

[trail wagon]

true too

[limpid summit]

Huh

[trail wagon]

I mean like.. Why would the FS spread this info to other bugs?

[limpid summit]

No I see where you’re coming from

But idk it doesn’t matter much right we don’t have to know her thought process

We just have to understand the weavers saw that possibility as a risk

[trail wagon]

The Weavers are still prone to want to have control, it's entirely possible that the FS wanted what she viewed as justice for the Weavers, but didn't care about other bugs

[plain ruin]

Regardless of if she did or did not, the Weavers knew that she was fully capable of breaking the illusion

[trail wagon]

I mean it might be true, yeah

[limpid summit]

Maybe she thought transparency was key pilgrims in “her” (Atla’s) effigy describe her as being devoted to upholding true history

Well as much as she could without revealing GMS

Which would have been detrimental

[trail wagon]

hmmm interesting, yeah, I mean both theories can exist I think

We don't have sufficient reasons to build any understanding of the lore tbh 😭

Everything is so vague

[limpid summit]

I don’t think that’s the right way to think about it

There’s a lot of ways people have made good theories and even pieced together a good timeline

You just have to be respectful and thoughtful about it

[trail wagon]

I mean there is evidence of contrary things

[limpid summit]

Like what

Not in a confrontational way ofc I’m just asking

[trail wagon]

I mean the idea that the Weavers imprisoned the FS makes sense, but I find it very awkward that there's nothing in her dialogues that would imply anything even remotly similar to that

[limpid summit]

That’s fair

But her narrative relevance is the lie

[trail wagon]

Like if it was the last thing to happen to her, she should dedicate some time to shit on both the GMS and the Weavers

[limpid summit]

GMS would be the target of her anger primarily cause almost all weavers hate her regardless