sk-lore

[twin dragon]

i really think that's kind of unoriginal

[midnight reef]

Like against Garmond and Shakra

[twin dragon]

and unrealistic aswell

It would be nice to have i guess, but i'm looking forward to new shit

[edgy nebula]

definitely but i do feel like it both goes against tk's character and would be wildly unrealistic to win

[sinful nimbus]

that's why you team up with the great knights and rely on ze'mer to weaken shade lord like uumuu

[twin dragon]

hold up from where the fuck

[near jasper]

Pick up the knights shade with a bowl from the void lake and rematch

[foggy fractal]

😭 nah man Hornet gets no diffed!

[tawdry flare]

[sinful nimbus]

so like you just spend half the fight dodging the void attacks (tendrils, projectiles, blades, etc), killing void masses and then ze'mer hits it with an everbloom and its immobilized for like 20 seconds for you to deal the big dam age

[edgy nebula]

"Creatures of Pharloom, we must team up to destroy this beast of void!"

my favorite line from Silksong: ShoeLace

[foggy fractal]

the everbloom ain't doing shit!

[near jasper]

The shit people put on the wishwalls knowing only hornet reads it

[sinful nimbus]

its the first light, the only means we possess to resist that void with which our family is forever linke (only a fool believes the void can be fashioned to do his bidding)

[twin dragon]

It eventually decays btw

[edgy nebula]

everbloom vs weedkiller

[twin dragon]

Plus doubt ze'mer has the roided flower

[sinful nimbus]

She could use delicate ones

So Hornet has to like make sure she doesn't get hit

[twin dragon]

Those dont work that way pretty sure

Is this a sattire on act 3 again?

[near jasper]

The only way we beat the shade lord is we put it in an even smaller vessel next time

[edgy nebula]

do we think we'll get more snail shaman lore in dlc

[twin dragon]

Hydraulic press vs shade lord

[sinful nimbus]

Lest Ze'mer dies and Sherma yells "The knight is down! What are you doing muckmaggot? The mission is failed, everyone go home *sigh*"

[twin dragon]

Glowing hydraulic press mb

[near jasper]

Not really

[edgy nebula]

maybe tc will reveal that the shamans are made of void this entire time and by extension zote is void too!

[twin dragon]

And hornet is actually void

[edgy nebula]

elderbug is void

[sinful nimbus]

More shaman lore would be good they aren't really fleshed out in Pharloom

[near jasper]

Zote could be void from the way he kills so many things

[twin dragon]

Act 3 could be mostly fixed with a bunch of dialogues its crazy

[sinful nimbus]

Idk what opportunities you would have to do that though since they're all dead

[near jasper]

Just dream nail them smh

[twin dragon]

Add the dialogues before.. they like die yk..

Qol stuff can be done even if unrelated to the main content of the dlc

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah ig

[twin dragon]

Grimm troupe added pop after all💔

[near jasper]

They should scrap sea of sorrow for a styx game

[sinful nimbus]

Always bet on Boon cooking game

[twin dragon]

But

Zote boat..

Elderbug standing simulator

[near jasper]

Stardew valley but Its sherma in songclave

[sinful nimbus]

Always felt weird how he does nothing once he turns into a leader

[near jasper]

Act 3 needed more wishes

They blew all the budget on the story ones

[tawdry flare]

it's a metaphor for capitalism

[silk dirge]

LMAO

[near jasper]

Lowkey act 3 had a ton of story wishes and 5 normal wishes

[silk dirge]

i feel like if there was an epilogue with more wishes to repair pharloom that would be better

but i think the delivery wishes couldve been made meaningful in act 3

[near jasper]

Kill belleater kill the 3 old hearts go to the abyss leave the abyss kill lost lace talk to the snail shamans leave the first area you start the act in

[covert night]

i can agree if you're not talking about fetch quests

game already has enough fetch quests

[frosty gate]

ALWAYS BET ON EPILOGUE CHAPTER

[near jasper]

And then theres mister mushroom, trobbio, the void masses, advanced Alchemy and pinstress

[covert night]

i want an epilogue so much. i want to explore dlc content in a voidless pharloom

[frosty gate]

Considering Silksong is divided by Chapters they can do Prologue and Epilogue

[near jasper]

Its weird how much styx knows about silk

[covert night]

maybe if we get a steel dlc

[willow epoch]

is lace a child 👀

[graceful flicker]

No. She is older than the citadel, but is made to look an act like a child

[willow epoch]

ok good to know the fandom seems to have sorted that

[graceful flicker]

[frosty gate]

It really depends on the time of day when you ask the question

[tawdry flare]

tldr yes

[willow epoch]

FIGHT!

[sinful nimbus]

Eternally young basically

She's said to have the "look of a child and a mind to match" and Lace herself states she was created that way by GMS in her second encounter

[covert night]

yes

4000 year old child is still a child

[sinful nimbus]

Silk-spun child possessed by the void
As for whether or not the game considers her one

Kinda doesn't get more explicit than the meta descriptions in the top portions of the journal

[edgy nebula]

terrible idea

a GREYMOOR cooking game would be far superior

[edgy nebula]

yes

[sinful nimbus]

Your only ingredient is roach guts

[edgy nebula]

wheat, bamboo, there can even be an aphid milking minigame to make nectar dishes

itd be tuff

[covert night]

moorwing is a food too according to fleas

[dire lynx]

she is

only someone who is illiterate or a shipper (almost the same thing) will tell you otherwise

[spark valve]

they really need to unrelease silksong

[fiery karma]

wat hapin

[fiery karma]

why

[fiery karma]

but isnt she immortal so she might have been alive for as long as hornet or less?

[foggy stratus]

Chronologically yes, but the factor that matters more is mentally is she a child.

[fiery karma]

yea i get that. also thats prob what the game tries to tell you

[dire lynx]

Aye, bellringer! You've slain a marvel indeed... Well, flawed marvel, at least.
One to keep far from she was, least for us mortal sorts. Look of a child and a mind to match, but her's been up wanderin' this Citadel longer'n most. Even in its long silence, way 'fore you came and roused its ire.

[foggy stratus]

-# still waiting for SilkScribe bot

[ionic stump]

I’m pretty sure it’s as much as the vessels are made to be hollow

She’s essentially dragged to be in that role and position

All that to impress her mother

[dire lynx]

im too stupid to use bot commands

[finite wind]

These things have needolin dialogue

[foggy stratus]

Sorta I think? Assuming you mean what I think you mean. Vessels appear to look like(probably) children due to how they’re formed while Lace was purpose made to appear that way. The difference is that Vessel don’t have the mind of a child while Lace does.

[foggy stratus]

Despite lacking a mind to think, I know how to:)

[finite wind]

Drop the molten skarr lore

I found the needolin dialogue from the boomerang guy interesting

I mean the one who gives you upgraded boomerang

[foggy stratus]

Hm yes my favorite NPC. The Molten Skarr.

[ionic stump]

What i meant to say was that she essentially pulls up an act to attempt to appeal to her mother just as much as the hollow knight wanted to impress pale king

[finite wind]

The skarr with vitiligo

[ionic stump]

That was my interpretation

And my understanding

[foggy stratus]

I know who you’re talking about, I’m just poking fun at you for saying Molten instead of molted.

[foggy stratus]

-# my username is LexMolten

[finite wind]

🥺

[ionic stump]

Mottled skarr are exiled by regular skarr possibly because they are also not haunted and think they are an enemy of the skarr

[marble oasis]

It’s not them it’s the area

[finite wind]

No, it is them

[marble oasis]

Mottled

[finite wind]

When the guy disappears there's no dialogue

[finite wind]

Why are they not haunted

[marble oasis]

Oh do you mean the lilypad not the glowing fly?

[sick tinsel]

do yall think sharpe will appear in next dlc

[finite wind]

Yeah

[marble oasis]

Gotcha

[dire lynx]

the entire first game tells us that the vessels do have a mind and will, while everything in silksong is telling us lace is a child

[ionic stump]

I really don’t take that at face value

[plain ruin]

Is this in the Clover Dancer building

[finite wind]

It is

[plain ruin]

That’s needolin dialogue for the location

[finite wind]

👆

[plain ruin]

One of the lines for that location is “Our strength…”

[dire lynx]

even the meta text in the journal states she is a child, there is literally nothing supporting her being anything but a child

[plain ruin]

Needolin dialogue for locations like this often has long gaps between individual bits of dialogue

That’s probably why it didn’t show up again

[finite wind]

Idk man

[near jasper]

Wait dont the edges get messed up when you needolin in a dream

[plain ruin]

The wiki doesn’t say anything about the lilypad enemies having dialogue

[finite wind]

I'll try it next play though

[ionic stump]

I thought they meant child as in, of gms

[ionic stump]

no vignette appears when using the needolin in memories

[dire lynx]

"Silk-spun child possessed by the void."
how

[ionic stump]

I’m unsure

[plain ruin]

“Of gms”

[dire lynx]

but it doesnt say that

and everything else is saying that shes a child, even she herself

[plain ruin]

The message you replied to says “of GMS”

Child as in, a child of GMS

[finite wind]

Lace is a child

[dire lynx]

thats just not what the dialogue says

[finite wind]

No, a literal child

[ionic stump]

I’m just here to give my interpretation

[finite wind]

The snail shaman says so

[dire lynx]

shaman, lace, hornet and the journal all say shes a child

[plain ruin]

Should’ve read back at the earlier context that’s my bad, misinterpreted what they meant by that message

[dire lynx]

"A child, too broken..."

"Who are you hoping you'll find down there, spider? An ailing child and a Silk starved beast?
If so, I'm afraid we may sorely disappoint. What waits below is me no longer."

lace calling herself a child

[foggy stratus]

She also kinda behaves like a child iirc.

She be a fetus and as such the natural prey of both the Pale King and the Child Murder Hole Abyss.

[jovial lily]

speaking of lace art of lace i did

[foggy stratus]

Post in #art-discussion and/or #hk-art-gallery

Still fire tho.

[jovial lily]

ah ok i didnt see that TwT

[jovial lily]

TY

[ionic stump]

Thats cute

[jovial lily]

thankyou

[marble oasis]

Hornet will be disappointed actually because she was hoping to find a child and Lace is not a child

[dire lynx]

[graceful flicker]

If you define a child by their age or their personality changes how lace is defined

[edgy nebula]

she's a child in mind and body, she's just lived a long time

she is virtually unaging it's really hard to define her as anything other than what she is

[edgy nebula]

(a child)

[foggy stratus]

Old ass child.

[foggy stratus]

This should be her official description.

[edgy nebula]

unclet

[foggy stratus]

Something I’ve noticed is that Skarrs(the one with the masks but don’t fly) have a somewhat similar move set to Hornet. Neat.

[near jasper]

Karmelitta is just a beast crest user

The sawblade pogo, the meele, wants to kill herself

[dire lynx]

yeah, people often miss the "in body" part since shes not a human, an equivalent that would be closer to us is something like kanna from dragon maid

[marble oasis]

I thought this myself

I was like damn this is just hornet 1 and now it’s a regular ass enemy

[edgy nebula]

i odnt watch dragon maid but i assume she's similar in how she's just forever a child

[dire lynx]

not quite, shes like 30 but still a baby becuase the dragons live for ages

same idea tho yeah

[near jasper]

Its weird not a single person thinks to put up a wish asking for supplies

When the world is falling apart

[muted lantern]

they do, supply wishes just go to the couriers i presume. How else would they know styx wants a silkeater queen?

[near jasper]

Yeah but like did not a single person not worry the couriers wouldnt answer and put in on a wishwall

[muted lantern]

also songclave puts in wishes for supplies like cloaks and pins, bone bottom asks for cloak.

and the shell shard requests too

[dire lynx]

they mean in act three

[near jasper]

In act 3

Id expect bellhart, having like 20 pilgrims waiting there might want like 300 rosaries for some shelter

And there arent even any real songclave wishes for act 3 trobbio just went there because he knew Hornet passed that place

The whole shrine is caved in but trobbio is the only one wishing for anything

There are like 9 wishes in act 3 if you dont include story wishes

[dire lynx]

it might be since nobody has faith after the black quakes, the only wishes made in act three are emergency cases

[near jasper]

There arent any emergency cases

Except gillys doll I guess

[dire lynx]

Seek out the distressed bug near the Blasted Steps Bellway.
Destroy Void Masses throughout Pharloom.
Track the one who stole Gilly's keepsake near the Bellshrine between Deep Docks and Far Fields.

Find Pinstress on the stormward side of Mount Fay and defeat her in battle.

[ionic stump]

The tormented one

[near jasper]

Is that really more important than helping the 20 pilgrims having to rest in the middle of town square

[ionic stump]

Yes the void masses are threatening

[near jasper]

That one makes sense the rest dont really

[dire lynx]

the requests are more personal and are not based around things some may consider based in faith, generosity, compassion etc

other than gilly who is a kid

[near jasper]

Theres more story wishes in act 3 than normal ones

[ionic stump]

I mean someone might want to save garmond

None of the pilgrims seem competent enough to go out on their own at all

[near jasper]

Yeah thats what wishes were for in the first 2 act

[near jasper]

Look pavo I know you like to put wishes for Weird noises outside bellhart on the wall but theres 20 homeless people on the street

[graceful flicker]

b...but... there's noises!

[ionic stump]

They just want that glimmer of hope and not dread I guess

The world is ending but hornet is still here to help

[near jasper]

The first wish you can get there is "theres corpses hung on the walls of every location from void consuming soul"

One of the other wishes you can get there is "the world is ending, meet me at mount fay so we can fight to death"

[dense sigil]

did the Pure Vessel copy the Weaver's Rune Rage?

[muted lantern]

rune rage seemed to be unique to first sinner but maybe pv got infused with similar silk runes

[dense sigil]

or
maybe

its a common soul-based ability

maybe not common but

[muted lantern]

eh we don't really see any other soul users making use of the ability

and since its specifically tied to runes a believe runes are a mainly weaver thing

[dense sigil]

maybe only demi-gods can use it

[muted lantern]

and we know weavers helped with the vessel plan

[dense sigil]

you got a point

unless we see somebody else use that ability then its speculation for now

[foggy stratus]

Nothing ever indicates that PV got infused with any form of silk. It’s fully possible that it’s just an ability used by soul wielders that overlaps with silk wielders.

Also if the weavers of Hallownest had it why wouldn’t they also teach it to Hornet?

[edgy nebula]

soul runes probably exist i think pv is just using soul runes

it wouldnt be wildly different cause silk is just soul

[whole holly]

Shamans also use Runes, Runes aren't exclusive to Silk, but maybe Pure Vessel still learned from them?

[plain gazelle]

my theory is team cherry put this connection in as a "pure vessel isn't hollow" moment by showing that they get pissed off when we bring them to phase 2

[solar gale]

...the pure vessel is infact hollow

The hollow knight isnt

PV is what THK could've been if it didn't bond with PK

[jagged sun]

I'm pretty sure that it's just that PV is the same one that's impure, but just unweakened by the infection

Essentially if they found another method last minute and used it as a kingsmould on steroids

[marble oasis]

It’s just a different application of Focus

That attack is to Rune Rage what TK’s Focus is to Binding

[frank dove]

I theorize that from the time on the clocks in cogwork core sea of sorrow will release tomorrow

Ha hey that rhymes

[stark marlin]

of course

[foggy stratus]

PV is just THK before getting the Radiance inserted into it. And nothing would change if PV “bonded” with PK since it was never pure to begin with.

[foggy stratus]

-# TC most likely wouldn’t have the concept or the name of Rune Rage when they gave PV that attack

[rotund pulsar]

Probably. Silk is just soul weaved into string so most likely the pale king who has infinite soul taught Pv to use it like that with soul directly

[rotund pulsar]

The weavers in hallownest weaved silk seals which aren't too far off from runes so it's either the pale king adapted this to normal soul and taught it to pv or pv just learned it on it's own

[foggy stratus]

Doesn’t answer why they wouldn’t teach it to Hornet.

[rotund pulsar]

Because those were seals not actual runes

I just said the pale king most likely made the adaptation himself

Not that the weavers did

And there's a big chance none of that even happened and the pale king could just do that without the weavers help

Then taught pv

Soul is more powerful than silk and as a being that has an infinite amount, it's also highly possible he could just do that

[foggy stratus]

So then PK/PV didn’t copy Rune Rage they’d have used the basics of a technique borrowed from the Weavers and applied it in their own way.

[rotund pulsar]

This is one possibility. Another is the pale king having existed before the weavers as a wyrm knowing how to use all kinds of soul spells and then teaching it to pure vessel

So it's more likely to say, pvs is the original technique while first sinners is silks adaptation

Since soul is the base behind silk

Now a question I have is, did the shamans die after using the hearts for the red memory or are they just in a state of hibernation in their shells?

[foggy stratus]

Probably died I’d say.

[ionic stump]

they're straight up gone

[rotund pulsar]

How tho?

[ionic stump]

they sacrificed themselves to fix their mistakes

[rotund pulsar]

Wasn't that what the hearts were for?

[ionic stump]

idk man they don't seem to be in their shells

cracked with nothing inside

[rotund pulsar]

Well damn

[ionic stump]

hitting them ingame just knocks them

[ionic stump]

yes, but the shamans used a spell that destroyed themselves in the process

a soul for a soul...

[foggy stratus]

Serves them right. Fake ass Snails.

[graceful flicker]

Or there's three random snails running nude through Pharloom

[foggy stratus]

-# they’re just slugs in hats…

[rotund pulsar]

Bro might be on the something

Or maybe the power of the flower vanquished them since they're technically beings of void

[foggy stratus]

Or their matter had to be used to make the flower. Laws of thermodynamics and all.

Also nothing says they’re Void.

[rotund pulsar]

Black bodies, white eyes. Two of the dead snail shamans even gave the knight shade upgrades to its spells so I assumed

They look like collector who is a confirmed void being

[pale narwhal]

i know hollow knight bugs don't follow real biology,
but snails shells are part of them
to the point that if it spirals the wrong direction they can't mate

[foggy stratus]

The first one isn’t exclusive to Void, soul eyes and TK just used them as a catalyst to transfigure the preexisting spell.

[pale narwhal]

there's a lot of bugs with black bodies under their clothes
hornet, sly, elderbug

[rotund pulsar]

Fair point but theirs looks a little different

Plus the white eyes

I don't recall anyone having that other than lace and she's not even a bug

Wait

Jiji

[foggy stratus]

Soul eyes. Eyes with the color of Soul. Eye Soul.

[dire lynx]

snail shaman reaction to unlocking void version of wraiths:

"That scream? Ooohh, distorted in such a way... It's not within the skills of us snails to do such a thing.
Wherever you draw this new power from, it's not a place my kind ever thought to look."

[rotund pulsar]

Ah

Well damn

[pale narwhal]

and yet descending dark gets "i feel the power of my fourth aunt"

[blissful harbor]

you absorbed her

as a battery

[dire lynx]

based on the dialogue for shade soul it seems the knight needs the extra power from a shaman to infuse its void into the spells

[ionic stump]

you groal'd her

[dire lynx]

What's this? My vengeful gift has warped within you. You've twisted it into something... else.
Ohohohoh! I knew it. My friend! You're a marvel. Your essence has melded with the spell.
You must have found a powerful source to transform it in such a unique, expressive way.

[ionic stump]

if groal had another snail shaman he might have gotten shade soul

ehh probably not

[blissful harbor]

not how that works

[ionic stump]

he isnt like a vessel.

[blissful harbor]

TK turned them into void because of the void already inside it

[dire lynx]

no, since he doesnt have its own void to draw from

[ionic stump]

oh yeah

he's just soul master

[rotund pulsar]

Also notice how groals vengeful spirit doesn't have eyes like tk's

[karmic tartan]

The pharloom maskmaker clearly presents themselves as mortal, and yet, when you take their mask off in act 3, they claim "My mask has remained defined through lifetimes uncounted." What do y'all think that means?

It's possible maskmakers just have weirdly long lifespans, but clearly nowhere close to higher beings, as they directly tell Hornet "The lifetimes of bugs are poor measures for one like you." Clearly making a distinction between Hornet's lifespan and their own

[gentle aspen]

they just have a long lifespan?

This isn’t strange

[karmic tartan]

Yeah but it's weird

[gentle aspen]

not really

varying lifespans are like

the least strange thing

[karmic tartan]

I just wanted to see if anyone had any cool theories -_-

[gentle aspen]

there isn’t a theory here

[karmic tartan]

People can always make theories

[gentle aspen]

dawg

there’s nothing to make a theory about

You just had a question and you were answered there’s no room for interpretation the guy just has a long lifespan

[karmic tartan]

There isn't one designated answer, you just gave me the most likely answer, which is pretty boring but it is the one that's probably right

[gentle aspen]

😐

The game doesn’t make any other answer viable

[karmic tartan]

People can theorize still, even if it's stupid, that's what makes lore entertaining

[gentle aspen]

Theorizing isn’t making stuff up and acting as though it’s a reasonable assumption or assertion to make

[tawdry flare]

A theory is based on evidence

[karmic tartan]

Of course not

[lapis flower]

Well that's not exactly true. Mentioning a bugs lifetime doesn't necessarily mean his own. Plus the Hallownest MM seems to be resistant to the infection. Plenty of reason to think they could be more than an average, long lived bug.

Plus they have the same eyes as Mr Mushroom, who himself is definitely special since he can see through realities.

[gentle aspen]

???

The second sentence is like, not relevant to the conversation

he mentions his mask remaining defined throughout lifetimes

He speaks of masks much in the same vein as crests and identity, he’s clearly referring to his own identity enduring over all those years

The part about “MM being resistant to the infection” is totally irrelevant as so many bugs resist the infection that aren’t special in any real regard

and like…what does bringing up mister mushroom prove? having similar eyes isn’t at all enough to draw a comparison, visual similarities aren’t the basis of any real theory with nothing else to back it

we know mask maker has something called the sight but that relates to seeing within bugs and knowing what they are

[lapis flower]

"Clearly". Dude it's Hollow Knight, clearly doesn't exist there XD

As for the eyes, attention is drawn to them,l after you unmask them, they quite literally tell you there's more to the Mask Makers than what you see. They're SUPPOSED to be an ambiguous mystery with no answer.

[frosty gate]

I don't even know what is being discussed here

[lapis flower]

https://tenor.com/view/mask-maker-maskmaker-hollow-knight-hollowknight-silksong-gif-5944498561629537110

[karmic tartan]

I asked a question, the noon guy gave me a really boring answer and said it's the only acceptable answer, and the ento guy started opposing that

Tbf the noon guy is most likely right but eh

[frosty gate]

Embed fail, laugh at this man

[lapis flower]

Yeah but that's no fun!

[frosty gate]

I mean yeah, it is a boring answer but it is the right one.
They have to be more long lived than a regular bug, but less than a Pale/Higher being

[lapis flower]

Do they though?

[frosty gate]

You could theorize why they have long lifespans, which in my opinion it is interesting, considering it could be related to the Masks

[frosty gate]

Yeah

[lapis flower]

Why can't he just not age?

[frosty gate]

They age, just slower than normal bugs

[lapis flower]

Do they though? Mortality has always been a grey area in the series

Lots of "normal" bugs seem to be ageless

[karmic tartan]

I was just tryna have fun seeing what theories people could come up with

[frosty gate]

Like which one

[frosty gate]

Nothing wrong with that, but there are things were theories find a wall. I think it's more fun to ask why they're long lived

[karmic tartan]

That was what I asked tho

The noon guy just told me "they're long lived, that's all, there is no reason why."

[frosty gate]

I mean there has to be a reason why, even if the reason is "different bugs, different lifespans"

[lapis flower]

Dung defender, mantis Lords (maybe), grey mourner (pale maybe?), that one rich bug who's happy to see her friends go mad.

[lapis flower]

Yeah but stating that it's just because they're long lived bugs as if its fact is wrong. It's just another theory

[frosty gate]

How are Ogrim and Ze'mer "normal bugs"

[lapis flower]

Well they aren't gods (I don't think), and they seem relatively unchanged since the height of Hallownest, just more depressed.

Without a timescale it's hard to say

[frosty gate]

Ok, pause, not all long lived bugs have to be gods

Or god related

[lapis flower]

I mean it's implied to have been a LONG time.

[frosty gate]

Some bugs just live that long

Emilitia is one of those, although there is absolutely no good reason as to why she is long lived

[lapis flower]

Could theorise it has something to do with the red flowers she's surrounded with

[frosty gate]

The Lords, as with Ogrim and Ze'mer are strong bugs who probably are more long lived than the rest of regulars, which I wouldn't call weird

[frosty gate]

Fair enough

Honestly, the weirdest of cases is Emilitia

She is the most common of bugs

[lapis flower]

Again, we need a time scale. If bugs CAN live that long, then it's weird that Hornet laments how she lives so much longer than other bugs. For all we know, Hallownest could be almost dust by the events of Silksong, or it could have been a week.

[frosty gate]

I'm going to make a High Fantasy comparison here

Imagine elves to dwarves

Elves can spend thousands of years and not age a wrinkle

Dwarves start aging around 200 years

[lapis flower]

Ehhhhhhh it would be weird to have that but make it have no impact on the lore

[frosty gate]

Wdym

[lapis flower]

Like if bugs had THAT large a variation in lifespans, I feel like it'd have lore implications.

[frosty gate]

What kind of lore implications would it have? There are many things we haven't gotten to explore and honestly I don't particularly mind that we don't get to see the ages be one of them.

[silent oasis]

guys where is sea of sorrow in the timeline

[frosty gate]

Ages are particularly weird, because you can clearly see that bugs age but we don't know why some age longer than others.
It could be purely irrelevant or it could have some explanatio regarding strong bugs living longer than common bugs

With the exception being Emi, because ????????????????

To me its not weird certain bugs are long lived and look "well mantained" while others don't

[near jasper]

Whats the topic rn

[frosty gate]

I'm pretty sure Team Cherry hasn't thought too deep into stuff like that

They are good at making a story and building a world while in that story

[silent oasis]

WHERE IS SEA OF SORROW IN THE TIMELINE

[frosty gate]

But they don't seem particularly bothered by massive Worldbuilding

[frosty gate]

We don't know, it hasn't come out yet

[silent oasis]

MAN STOP YAPPING UR LIKE A BOT IGNORING EVERYTHING-

[frosty gate]

Bug ages

[frosty gate]

I wanna make my point before I move onto a question which the answer is "We don't know"

SoS hasn't come out, so we don't know where in the timeline does it take place

[silent oasis]

I THOUGHT THIS IS A THEORY / LORE CHANNEL

[near jasper]

Starts before she gets to pharloom bay and ends before she dies

[silent oasis]

NOT A OH I DONT KNOW THAT-

[silent oasis]

i mean what act gng

[near jasper]

Oh yk

[frosty gate]

I'd love to make a theory about it, but we have no clue about it

It could be act 2 or 3

It could be in act one

It could be a new act

I'm hoping its a new act

[silent oasis]

if its after the events of act 3 then i think its gonna be an act 4/new pale being

[near jasper]

I dont think we can really go after the events of act 3

Gameplay wise

Theres no more haunting so

What do you do if you were missing a boss

[frosty gate]

You can go back in a save

Also they can just give a "After this action, everything will change" before doing Lost Lace

[near jasper]

I dont think tc is adding like 20 npcs to give you items that you were meant to get for killing them

[frosty gate]

What?

[near jasper]

Like what do you do now that theres no haunting and someone didnt do lugoli

Or pinstress

Or trobbio

Or one of the old hearts

[frosty gate]

Pinstress, Trobbio and old hearts have NOTHING to do with Haunting

[pastel timber]

they put in failsafes for things like verdania where your missing journal entries auto fill up itd be weird for them to suddenly stop doing that just so they can put side content in a whole new act instead of just fitting it into the existing ones

[near jasper]

Pinstress goes to mount fay because the world is ending

Trobbio would need a whole 3rd show (and quill)

[frosty gate]

If you don't kill Lugoli, you probably would find a the jar of mucks lying there

[frosty gate]

"So you stopped the world's end, you are strong, wanna fight?"

Solved

[frosty gate]

As if people wouldn't like a 3 Trobbio

Also, Trobbio is a Wish boss, so you get a mission to go get him

It's harder to miss Trobbio

Lugoli you would miss tho, no mission for that one

[frosty gate]

They could do it during Act 2

And just act 2

[near jasper]

And the craw you could miss too

Unless theyre really mad about the scarecrow

[frosty gate]

Craws would still want to kill you

You get Craw summons and you never lose it so you can probably go there whenever you want

[pastel timber]

what would even happen to 90% of the enemies in the game, no haunting theyre not hostile anymore, just get rid of them?

[frosty gate]

Yep

[near jasper]

Why tho

[pastel timber]

for what end though, like genq what about sea of sorrow warrants it being its own act that locks you out of all this content and massively reduces the amount of things in the world

[frosty gate]

For being different? Idk, I doubt they would care we fixed the world ending

[near jasper]

The craws arent racist

[frosty gate]

Not particularly just SoS, but I want an Epilogue chapter for Silksong

Instead of doing Haunting, the current issue would be the Plasmium spreading

Which is what SoS is about

Now that the Skarr are unhaunted, they can expand and seek revenge on Hornet for killing their Queen

Idk, I'm not saying it would be perfect, but I wanna see what's next for Pharloom

[near jasper]

I dont think an epilogue chapter can really work when theres thing you would need to get beforehand or be permanently locked out of

Like lost garmond

[pastel timber]

yeah from what we see of silksong tc really dont like locking you out of things you havent done

the only things i can think of are the optional spars with shakra and garmond that dont even count towards hunters mark or give you any reward

and i guess palestag which is the same story

[near jasper]

Palestag is just a tiny lore thing

[pastel timber]

mhm

[near jasper]

(also has anyone actually missed it? I didnt even know you could until I checked the wiki)

[frosty gate]

There's nothing you need to get, if it was obligatory you wouldn't be able to miss it

[pastel timber]

if the theories on where the pharloom bay entrance is are right then you need wings to get there so to answer the original question it looks like its gonna be an act 2/3 thing

[near jasper]

I dont want to be locked out of all mementos or 100%

[pastel timber]

im sure theres someone out there has, or just found it too tough and did everything else instead

[frosty gate]

The only memento you'd be locked out would be the Hunter's, which it is a shame

[near jasper]

Nope

Heros memento

[covert night]

i believe there is an alternative path where you have to do a gauntlet arena

[near jasper]

And probably craw

[frosty gate]

Oh yeah Garmond. I mean, you could get there and see him already be dead

[pastel timber]

i dont know if you even have to do that arena, you just have to get enough memory orbs and the palestag counts towards that total

[near jasper]

So we just steal something from garmonds corpse while zaza watches

[covert night]

no memento locks out i think

[near jasper]

Yes

Except the other 3 hearts

[pastel timber]

nothing locks out, theyve set up the game very deliberately to never lock you out of 100% or completion achievements

[frosty gate]

Add some extra pain to see he killed Zaza

[near jasper]

Wait you can miss unravelled too

Since the silk there would be gone

[pastel timber]

killing gms doesnt zap all the silk out of existence, lace still exists after all

[frosty gate]

To be fair, I don't even like Unravelled I would've missed him on purpose

[pastel timber]

but the silk heart would be weird since thats linked to gms

[near jasper]

Yes

[frosty gate]

But it can't live without GMS

[near jasper]

True but she was controlling the silk there

Mostly

[frosty gate]

Well, with the Heart it could, actually

[pastel timber]

the heart's the thing linked to gms

[frosty gate]

But the Silkheart wouldn't die out without GMS

[near jasper]

I guess

[frosty gate]

I mean, otherwise it wouldn't make sense for Lace to be alived

Making the educated guess that Lace has a Silkheart

[pastel timber]

the one that we take after the second lace fight?

[frosty gate]

She's still alive after both of those things

So we either don't get how Lace works

Or she has more than a Heart

[near jasper]

Shouldnt she not need gms if she has a silk heart

[pastel timber]

i dont think the silk hearts are magic balls of silk that generate it endlessly tbh

hornet "consumes" them to "regain her power" of generating silk, rather than just lodging them in her shell

if anything it seems theyre like little balls of silken strength, the thing gms wants to bind from the weaverspawn to regain her own strength

[frosty gate]

So they're probably the thing keeping them alive, wouldn't you say?

[frosty gate]

Maybe they still need to be fed Silk?

Honestly this a really nice line of questioning, I've never thought about it

Maybe they work like Silk-powered machines

[pastel timber]

i wouldnt be surprised if it was the medium by which gms supplied lace with the silk she needed, since theyre all directly connected to her

[frosty gate]

Imagine Lace never actually needed GMS

[near jasper]

The silkhearts we get just kinda appear after we beat up a large amount of silk

[frosty gate]

And GMS just put the idea she's dependent so she wouldn't betray her too

[frosty gate]

And... Well...

The Bellbeast

[near jasper]

Theres silk actively blocking her off and the arena

[pastel timber]

thats why i think theyre more a manifestation of silken strength than a magic silk producing yarn ball, if they were an infinite silk source theres no way the unravelled would not only get one but also lie dormant this whole time til hornet shows up

[near jasper]

Gms is trying to get to bone bottom the silk in bell beast and mosshome is her trying to haunt the pilgrims there

[pastel timber]

i feel like she also has pretty good reason to stop the big bell beast from burrowing through the bell veins making a huge racket when she needs quiet to wake up

[blissful harbor]

if the answer is simply just large amount of silk, one would expect to get one from widow
or hell even fourth chorus, literally puppeted by it

[near jasper]

Fourth chorus is silk flies which is different enough imo

[pale narwhal]

could also be someone trying to make either hornet's or the pilgrims lives harder

[blissful harbor]

there still tons of silk inside it, we see its joints and shit are made from silk when it flexes its fingers

[pale narwhal]

stringing up bellbeast i mean

[frosty gate]

It could generate only a little silk, not a lot

[near jasper]

Why didnt lace give phantom a silkheart if she had one to give Hornet smh

[pastel timber]

forgor

[pale narwhal]

but still
if they were like that why would lace need the silk of halfweavers to stay alive

[pastel timber]

?

[blissful harbor]

i don’t think a silkheart would be enough to sustain either lace or phantom
they specifically need a ton of silk, and silk hearts, for hornet at least, don’t really give all that much

[pale narwhal]

Lace has a limited lifespan without an external source of silk
similar to the clawmaidens

[near jasper]

I assume gms has her own silk generation And doesnt need the weavers

[pastel timber]

if silk is spun from soul, and the silkhearts facilitate that, it could be that gms being a pale being with a massive soul supply could make a lot more silk through them to maintain lace than hornet could?

[pale narwhal]

not much, but infinitely to a cap

[pastel timber]

the weaverspawn get sacrificed to the cocoon in the cradle though

[near jasper]

Lowkey

Why didnt anyone think of the weaver mummies during gms gathering weavers

[pale narwhal]

ok yea, i think i misremembered the purpose of capturing halfweavers
but Lace does indeed need an external source

[pastel timber]

youd think theyd design their tombs specifically so nobody but the silken saviour could get into them

[near jasper]

She should be able to sense the silk inside them right?

Widow is right there if its just meant to detect weaver Spawn

[pastel timber]

can she even bind if her silk is pinned down

[near jasper]

Gms could have had an actually decent relation with widow if she cared at all about her

[pastel timber]

one thing i do find odd about widow is that she is the only place in pharloom that hornet can learn the needolin

like the hallownest weavers taught her thread storm and stuff, which were also stored in spires in pharloom almost like a failsafe in case she didnt learn them

but the needolin? which we need to access some spires, meaning the weavers expected us to know it?

we can only get that from widow?

[near jasper]

Herrah is deaf

[pastel timber]

youd think thered be a spire for that somewhere

[near jasper]

Honestly why didnt gms care about widow at all in the entire game

[pastel timber]

she barely even cared about lace

[near jasper]

Like shes getting treated almost worse than Phantom by her

[frosty gate]

Probably sees her as incompetent

[pastel timber]

hell widow might just be haunted

[near jasper]

Gms ableist theory

[pastel timber]

even with her silk pinned down shes full of it and that makes her a huge target

[frosty gate]

"Almost" nah, she is getting treated worse

[near jasper]

At least phantom had an underworker salary for playing the organ probably

Widow is just a random ass pharlid to gms

[plain ruin]

Widow is haunted, I believe that she let herself become haunted to demonstrate her devotion

[near jasper]

Wait

[pastel timber]

we can only check if we cheat in needolin before the fight iirc and since thats inacessible normally its not strictly canon

[near jasper]

Widow has the haunting strings if you needolin her

[plain ruin]

The fact that threads show up at all is important

[near jasper]

Id assume the code for any widow needolin was made for her having the spinner crest

[fallow gulch]

why was cut ending cut in ss

[dull agate]

Good ending BAD

[sinful nimbus]

I don't know too much about cut content but iirc originally strung to serve was the bad ending and you'd have to like active tuning forks to weaken GMS and get the good ending (weaver queen)

Probably scrapped because that's not super satisfying narratively

So they reworked weaver queen into the bad ending

[dull agate]

Weaver queen feels like "under new management"

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[frosty gate]

You so wanna say "But they left SotV so who knows about TC's standards"

[sinful nimbus]

Perhaps

[dull agate]

[frosty gate]

[dull agate]

[whole holly]

with ongoing discussion in hk lore, it makes me think that vespa was old heart of hive

[barren beacon]

Is old heart a title

[sinful nimbus]

Old hearts are a manifestation of power central to their respective region

[whole holly]

sure but do you think Vespa meets similar enough powerful mortal status? given that she held back infection same way Karmelita warded off haunting

[sinful nimbus]

The way I interpret it is that the bees were left without a queen to unify their hivemind after Vespa's death and Radiance took advantage of this to use their desires to infect them

But possibly

[whole holly]

honestly, that's pretty agreeable interpretation, Heart symbolism is there, she was strength of hive that prevented them from getting infected, hiveblood charm and vespa being central mortal power of the hive suggest similarities of Hearts of Pharloom we see

[dull agate]

Was the HK and Lost vessel in the army in the true ending?

[dull agate]

I think the Hive Knight was the last to go. He still remembers the queen and stays there to protect her charm

[minor scroll]

yo what do yall think is in hornets cocoon ?

[edgy nebula]

regrets

[frosty gate]

I like the regrets answer because it implies that Regrets look different depending on the bug

Hornet's look like spiders

The Knight's is the shade itself

[foggy stratus]

Hornet's corpse.

Either that or a bunch of flesh eating spiders that got into Hornet's cocoon.

[edgy nebula]

pretty sure tc confrmed it anyway

the bilewater shaman also turns into tiny balls just like hornet's regrets so maybe shamans are living regret

[foggy stratus]

That... I honestly don't even know anymore. What the hell.

[rancid marsh]

lol

[foggy stratus]

I hate the idea that Void is somehow regrets, or regrets are somehow something that can become tangible.

[frosty gate]

Hold the fuck up, Bobbi is cooking

[foggy stratus]

If you call a kitchen fire cooking, sure.

[rancid marsh]

bro what

[frosty gate]

Who the fuck is talking about Void

[foggy stratus]

Gray Prince Zote seems to also turn into tiny balls after his defeat, is he also living regrets?

[foggy stratus]

I keep seeing people call regrets Void lately, and someone above said that TK's shade is made of regrets and its shade is made of Void.

[frosty gate]

GPZ is not only a meme, he's also not real and made up of essence

[foggy stratus]

YOU! IT WAS YOU!

[frosty gate]

Echo of a previous life. Defeat it to retake its power and become whole.

Each of us leaves an imprint of something when we die. A stain on the world. I don't know how much longer this kingdom can bear the weight of so many past lives...

How did the bot work again?

!wiki Shade

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Shade

Hollow Knight Wiki

Shade

The Shade is an enemy in Hollow Knight. It is the Void within the Knight which is let loose when the Knight's shell breaks.

Health

Nail Damage x ([max HP at death / 2]rounded down)

Drops

All Geo lost on most recent death and repairs soul meter

Journal Kills

0

[edgy nebula]

[[shade]]

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Shade

[frosty gate]

Yeah

[foggy stratus]

Are you trying to say TK's shade isn't made of Void?

[frosty gate]

I'm trying to say that TK's regrets manifest as their shade, which is made of Void

[foggy stratus]

The word regret doesn't even appear in the journal entry, and the Hunter is just being metaphorical or commenting on what he's seen in killing Vessels. Or he means the actual physical stain people leave behind after getting killed.

[frosty gate]

!wiki Jiji

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Confessor_Jiji

Hollow Knight Wiki

Confessor Jiji

Loading page description…

[frosty gate]

You see, sometimes we leave our regrets behind in the world, like black stains.

If we don't deal with these regrets, hope starts to drain from us.
Do you have regrets of your own, little one? Let me peer into you for a moment...

They both explain how we leave things behind in the world when we die

[foggy stratus]

Jiji summoning TK's Shade isn't a canon interaction since TK has to be there after it died for Jiji to "peer into" TK to find its Shade. The Hunter isn't some scholar on Void and might just be commenting on something else since the text is super vague. Jiji is just talking about everyone in a vague sense and could also be speaking in a metaphorical way.

Also, and this is more personal but still, they consdier Rancid Eggs "delicous". I'm just saying, I'm kinda questioning them and their mental facilties. Just a lttle.

[frosty gate]

The swedes eat that canned meat that smells like death

The Rancid Eggs is honestly pretty whatever

[foggy stratus]

And as such I shall judge them. But when the Hunter actively advises against eating them, I'm going to be a little adverse to putting them anywhere near my mouth.

[edgy nebula]

yeah i dont trust swedish people duh

[foggy stratus]

"Fatty, rancid egg of an unknown creature.
Emits a powerful stench of decay.
Generally not considered edible."-Description of the Rancid Egg

[edgy nebula]

doesnt tuk eat rancid eggs too

[foggy stratus]

Yeah these things aren't "pretty whatever" if im being honest.

[edgy nebula]

thats two npcs that eat the inedible food

[[tuk]]

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Tuk

[edgy nebula]

or no they sell them

nevermind

or no they do eat them

[foggy stratus]

I also question them if so.

[frosty gate]

Before I even try to argue against this, what do you even suggest is Hornet's cocoon?

[foggy stratus]

Either its her corpse or a bunch of flesh eating spiders.

[frosty gate]

Wouldn't her corpse just be a regular corpse

[foggy stratus]

Said flesh eating spiders would have eaten her corpse, if it is spiders.

[edgy nebula]

i couldve sworn tc confirmed somewhere that what is in hornet's cocoon is regrets

[foggy stratus]

I swear to the Nine Divine if they did I'm eating my bedframe.

[frosty gate]

They called them internally as "Remnant"

!wiki Cocoon

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Cocoon

Hollow Knight Wiki

Cocoon

Loading page description…

[frosty gate]

Trivia section

[lone folio]

It's not canon but it's still lore in the world of the game.

[frosty gate]

I was looking for the words to explain this, thanks Tytus

[edgy nebula]

jiji is canon to hk so we can assume she does the same thing and regrets exist

[foggy stratus]

That honestly doesn't make sense.

If its not canon then its not in the lore(the Shade summoning part)

[lone folio]

It may not happen in the story but it's still information that's worth considering

[edgy nebula]

jiji is canon just living after you die in hk isnt

[lone folio]

That better?

[foggy stratus]

If it doesn't happen in the canon events of the game or its story then no probably not. Since the only time we see Jiji summon Void is after TK's death it renders it invailed.

[lone folio]

this would also mean that every ending except for etv and dnm aren't additions to the lore

Which isn't the case

[foggy stratus]

In those cases TC straight up said they're canon.

[lone folio]

Did the knight do all 5 in the same timeline?

[frosty gate]

And it's also worth considering that Jiji most likely can summon a shade, whether we see her do it or not

[foggy stratus]

No but it does do it in five separate equally canon timelines.

[frosty gate]

Which means she can do what it does, but not with us

[lone folio]

Exactly

[frosty gate]

Which, thanks to Silksong, it makes absolute sense

[near jasper]

Jiji is doing the most basic teleporting magic that a literal silkeater grub can

[frosty gate]

Actually, its different, the Silkeaters find the Silk, it works differently although its unclear

Jiji is summoning Void, which is a big thing

[near jasper]

Do you think silkeater is a slur for weavers

[edgy nebula]

i feel like jiji's job is just to summon regrets, and the shade can be seen as tk's regret in a way so it's a loophole she can get away with

[lone folio]

Eh, Sula could kind of disprove that fact but there is a big connection between void and regrets

Unless void is entirely made from regrets

Then I guess that could work

[edgy nebula]

i mean im sure jiji could just summon void too but that's illegal

she can use regrets as a loophole to summon tk's shade

[frosty gate]

Sula disproves this yeah

[frosty gate]

That could work honestly, but I don't think its what they're going for

[frosty gate]

Is it really? I haven't read Sula's dialogue so I'm genuinely not sure

I wanted to get to her in game before I checked her on the wiki but

Steel Soul hard

[lone folio]

Either this or a retcon, would be pretty funny if it was true and she's dodging the law

[frosty gate]

It could also be that she is within the law, somehow

Jinn is her friend after all

[edgy nebula]

let me find the dialogue

[frosty gate]

And Jinn works for the Steelmasters

[edgy nebula]

!wiki sula

[lone folio]

How does jinn change anything?

[edgy nebula]

screw you wiki bot give me my stuff now

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Sula

Hollow Knight Wiki

Sula

Sula is an NPC in Hollow Knight: Silksong, exclusively in Steel Soul Mode. A vassal of the Steel Society, they are part of the A Vassal Lost wish.

Location

Bonegrave

Role

Miscellaneous

Tasks

A Vassal Lost

Affiliations

Steel Seer Zi (superior)
Unseen masters
Steel Society

Gender

Unspecified (English)
Male (Translations)

Singing

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/File:Sula_Sing.ogg

[frosty gate]

Wouldn't Jinn being a Steel servant with a Vassal that's actively breaking the law be weird

[lone folio]

Jiji is most likely Jinns vassal like Sula is Zi's

[lone folio]

Yeah

[edgy nebula]

"The wish? No... pale It... Zi sensed clear your meeting... The rite... The vassal is tarnished. They have touched the dark. By the Masters, they will now be hunted... no matter the distance fled." - zi

[lone folio]

That's why I think that TC weren't quite sure about the steel city stuff while making those characters

[frosty gate]

Uh

That's weird

[frosty gate]

Yeah, this makes sense then

Maybe Jinn is unaware? Jinn is like an armored baby after all iirc

!wiki Jinn

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Steel_Soul_Jinn

Hollow Knight Wiki

Steel Soul Jinn

Steel Soul Jinn is a Merchant in Hollow Knight. A steel child of the Steel Society, she only appears in Steel Soul Mode, replacing Confessor Jiji.

Location

Dirtmouth

Gender

Female

[lone folio]

I mean even if she was then the masters would still know

[edgy nebula]

zi didnt even tell on sula, apparently the masters just know if you break the rules

she can also sense zula through the sight rune or whateevr

[frosty gate]

Well yeah

[lone folio]

And Jiji should be aware of the masters rules

[frosty gate]

Fuck

Jiji is in on deep shit

[edgy nebula]

so the masters probably do the same

[lone folio]

Unless.... ✨ Retcon ✨

[frosty gate]

Actually!!!

Actually actually actually

It might not be a retcon

[lone folio]

Oh?

How so?

[frosty gate]

We just talked about how Jiji summoning a shade isnt canon perse, the fact that she can doesn't mean that she's doing it

In the instance we see her doing it, it breaks the law

But in Steel Soul...

[lone folio]

True

But it doesn't change the fact that she was willing to do it

[frosty gate]

Very willing and almost eager ngl

[lone folio]

Yeah

And that would still be weird

[frosty gate]

Maybe she is loyal in one and isn't loyal in the other? Idk

[lone folio]

🤷‍♂️

[frosty gate]

Zi's comment is honestly what is bugging me out

"Touched by the dark"

[lone folio]

Also on the topic of Jiji, how is she aware of the grim troupe. Has she been to a dead kingdom on a past mission?

[frosty gate]

But Jinn implies Masters are similar to the Knight with Voidheart

[dire lynx]

in that they are "complete" not to do with their relation to void

[frosty gate]

And also, why do they have Vassals who can control Void

Like, controlling Void isn't your everyday ocurrence

And these two do it as if it was natural to them

[lone folio]

Maybe it's something they get taught for another reason but if they use it for any other reason they get hunted down

[frosty gate]

You know I was thinking precisely that

Controlled and supervised Void usage

[dire lynx]

that also my thought, jiji's job might give her special permission to summon void in the context of "regrets", she also seems far more an equal to her steel soul than sula is to zi

[frosty gate]

And also, Zi is way different than Jinn

Zi is called a Seer

[lone folio]

I feel like that's one of the things that TC wasn't sure about

[frosty gate]

The attitude?

[lone folio]

They are too similar design wise and how they speak and the fact that they both have an associate of the same bug species is too similar to dismiss just because one isn't called a "seer"

[dire lynx]

jinn is young, perhaps she lacks a role due to her age

[lone folio]

No the seer part and how jinn and Jiji are more equal

[lone folio]

Could be, maybe they see themselves as equals since like a child she wouldn't understand social hirearchies as well

[dire lynx]

i was about to say that, jiji may be the leader in this case, and jinn the vassal

[frosty gate]

Yeah i was going to go that path, Jinn is just innocent

[frosty gate]

It is possible, Jinn is a merchant after all

Compared to Zi being a Seer, whatever that means

It seems a petty task by comparison

Maybe Jinn and Jiji are just selling their services as a co

What's Jiji called?

[lone folio]

There was a really good recent video on the steel city that talked about this stuff.

[dire lynx]

confessor

[lone folio]

Confessor i think

[frosty gate]

That

Maybe that's their job

[dire lynx]

exactly

as soon as we meet her "do you have regrets?"

[frosty gate]

She also speaks on how the land is covered with regrets

I wonder if she knew what the knight was from a glance or she understood it when she saw the shade

Oh she has Dialogue per location, I didn't know that

I didn't use Jiji much

[lone folio]

She probably knew that it was void

[dire lynx]

she seems to really skirt around reffering to it directly

[plain ruin]

Her abyss dialogue recognizes that the Knight’s shade is “almost a part of it”

As in, almost a part of the darkness of the abyss

[dire lynx]

"Only faintly though... a black stain deep below the world, surrounded by darkness. Almost a part of it..."

[frosty gate]

She so knows

[frosty gate]

I was gonna say that regrets and void are similar thanks to this dialogue but like

It's a shade

It doesn't really count

She also calls Ancient mound a place of "Strange Worships"

I swear to God I'm gonna kill that Snail

[lone folio]

I still think that they are connected

Places like modern verdania and the pale kings throne are desaturated and dark

And both are connected with regrets

Same with hornets cocoon. When you break it there is a black clump of liquid that looks like hornet, its sort of like a shade except without any actual void. And hornet would probably feel regret if she failed to save pharloom

[frosty gate]

It make sense

[muted lantern]

I think void is more thematically connected with regret than literally

[dire lynx]

i wish we knew what sulas role was, all he ever gets reffered to is vassal, but we know hes old enough to have watch pharlooms fall with zi in real time

[near jasper]

I kinda wanna see more of the relation between the citadel and skarr

[lone folio]

Probably

I do also think that it's what killed the pale king

[frosty gate]

Maybe we'll get more when Steel Assasins drop out

[craggy smelt]

I'm worried that we'll see Sula again, but just so Sharpe can break his neck or something right before he attacks us

[frosty gate]

Which was also regret, funny enough

[lone folio]

Yeah I think that regret killed the pale king

[frosty gate]

I wish I could animate because I wanna do a full animatic of the Pale King deciding to basically die because he failed

The devastation he must have felt

[near jasper]

Pk died of cringe

[modest trail]

how does Styx get the silk eaters?

[marble oasis]

Rears them with love and care

[craggy smelt]

he refers to growing and tending them, so presumably he breeds or farms them somehow

you can deliver him a queen's egg at some point and he'll start getting them faster

[modest trail]

ok tank u

[near jasper]

He probably has a silkeater queen somewhere in his nest

[marble oasis]

He does after we give it to him

I would say the fact that the rate triples after we give him the queen means he was probably going out and finding them

[near jasper]

How does styx have enough silk for a full nest thats strong enough to hold Hornet and also multiple silkeater cocoons

[sudden imp]

I'm not sure I understand the sequence of events between grandma silk making the weavers, who started worshipping who first, what were the pilgrims told would happen, was their pilgrimige ever successful, when did things turn for the wrong, what did the citadel do to bilewater, etc...

[marble oasis]

As you may clearly see the nest is not made out of Silk

[near jasper]

Aight so

[near jasper]

The top part

[marble oasis]

What top part

[near jasper]

Gms silk finds pharlids and evolves them into weavers

[near jasper]

Silksoar

:3

[heavy spire]

Wait you can go up there??

[marble oasis]

I think that’s just a big pile of dregs

He lives right above Greymoor where they collect so

[sudden imp]

so this was before the citadel religion was a thing at all right... it was dank caves, and GMS makes weavers out of pharlids, right?

[near jasper]

Yes

[sudden imp]

okay then what happened

[near jasper]

Then the weavers started rebelling against gms

[sudden imp]

why?

[near jasper]

Lying to them about being her Daughters

[sudden imp]

did the weavers make their weird technologies before after or during the building of the citadel?

[near jasper]

The weavenests are before

[sudden imp]

okay, so was the citadel a response to weavers rebellion?

[near jasper]

Yes

They made the citadel to keep her asleep

[sudden imp]

how was it a response, how does the citadel oppose the weavers?

[near jasper]

I may have misinterpreted

Oops

[sudden imp]

wait you skipped a step...

[marble oasis]

The Citadel is the Weavers’ response to every other avenue of killing GMS failing

[near jasper]

Yeah

[sudden imp]

okay so the citadel is there to keep GMS trapped by the "song of the silk" cocoon?

[near jasper]

Yes

[sudden imp]

so how did the haunting occur?

[near jasper]

She started waking up

[marble oasis]

The… say that again?

[near jasper]

The original plan of the citadel was just a stone place where pilgrims went to and sung until death

[sudden imp]

okay so GMS is resisting the song cocoon trap thing... and lashes out with silk, and this lashing out literally extincts the weavers??? But not before they know their doom is coming and they make all these shrine things to give power to a future savior? How did they know they would fail to oppose gms and how did they know a future savior would ever come?

[near jasper]

There wasnt any of the luxury you see today

[near jasper]

No

Most weaver left after they noticed the citadel would fail

The ones that stayed are the weaver shrines

The future saviour thing was just hoping theyd pass the word of mouth down to a child strong enough to kill gms

[sudden imp]

So the citadel is a construct to keep the cocoon with song... why is the underworks so screwed up, what is a "sinner" in terms of the slab, why is the first sinner a weaver? I thought the citadel was the weavers against gms, so the whole idea of the first sinner is confusing.

[dire lynx]

no, the weavers who left did so before the creation of the citadel. all the weavers who stayed (and probably those who fled) have died of age/silk use

[near jasper]

First sinner revealed to the pilgrims the weaver werent gods as the weavers told them

[sudden imp]

ah, so he sinned against their lie that they were diety

[near jasper]

The underworks is after the weavers left the citadel to the conductors

[near jasper]

Yeah

[sudden imp]

okay, so weavers are like, "This is too much work, make a religion and delegate this crap"

And the architects are like, "This is way too much work, automate this crap"

[near jasper]

The religion was to get people to work for them

[sudden imp]

so what was whiteward? Was that a weaver idea or a conductor idea?

[dire lynx]

weaver

[sudden imp]

what were they trying to do?

[dire lynx]

stick silk in pilgrims to make them immortal slaves

[near jasper]

Keep the bugs there to sing forever

[sudden imp]

why not just delegate some of this to the lowest on the weaver totem poll?

[dire lynx]

and also turn them into silkflies

[sudden imp]

What is Lace, how old is lace? Is she born of GMS' silk after she started waking up ?

[near jasper]

I think most the Whiteward silk experiment was after the weavers left

[dire lynx]

its all weaver tech

[near jasper]

Gms made lace as a perfect Daughter to herself

[sudden imp]

when

[near jasper]

Idk man

[dire lynx]

we dont know, some time after the weavers betrayed gms

[near jasper]

Shes a higher being they can just kinda materialize stuff from dreams

[edgy nebula]

he has a silkeater queen, she breeds them

[sudden imp]

Wasn't Bilewater and Verdania super nice at some point... why did the operations of the citadel screw those places up so hard?

[near jasper]

The conductors were greedy basically

[dire lynx]

the exhaust organ spewed all its waste into them

[edgy nebula]

they dumped their waste into the water using the exhaust organ like humans do

[near jasper]

Bilewater was where their waste went

[edgy nebula]

the conductors werent apart of the destruction of verdania tho

[sudden imp]

okay so for some reason the organ was needed to play music to keep gms caged up, but it also dumped massive amount of toxic waste?

[near jasper]

No

The organ was a separate thing

[edgy nebula]

the citadel choir and cogwork core made the music

the organ is just environment destruction aurafarming

[marble oasis]

I don’t think they needed the immortality at this point

[dire lynx]

they were, the memorium was a conductor creation and we see verdanian stuff in the memorium

[edgy nebula]

yeah they took stuff but otherwise they made true to their promises

the haunting was what destroyed verdania, gp's lover sacrificing himself mightve also been a part in it

[sudden imp]

okay so who is Phantom and Widow... are they pro GMS or anti GMS?

[edgy nebula]

widow is pro gms phantom is probably anti gms

[dire lynx]

widow (the goat) is pro gms

[spark valve]

Big ol’ citation needed on that one chief

[near jasper]

Phantom is gms' first attempt at chikdren after the weavers

[marble oasis]

On which part

[edgy nebula]

widow is a first generation weaver who stayed in pharloom, but got mutilated by either the weavers or gms and now serves her, and phantom is a discarded child made after the weavers

[near jasper]

Shes the prototype for lace

[spark valve]

Well all of it but primarily the haunting being responsible

[sudden imp]

Widow had her mask "forcibly removed" by who? And needles forced into her back to make her silk "powerless" (why was this a risk, and to whom?) and why is it a cruel punishment? What did widow do to be punished? Who punished her?

[edgy nebula]

i mean if it wasnt the conductors then it was rpobably the haunting

[near jasper]

The weavers for her being pro gms

[marble oasis]

You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow.

[dire lynx]

the other weavers (widow is the only good one)

[spark valve]

Who says it wasn’t them or it didn’t happen during their reign and they just didn’t intervene

[marble oasis]

So long, I dared not visit… Even as our lands fell to thread and ruin…

[spark valve]

That uh really emphatically is not saying GMS did it

[sudden imp]

wait, is GMS the baddie or were the weavers?

[dire lynx]

both

[near jasper]

Dont worry about it

[dire lynx]

they both suck

[marble oasis]

The conductors are not pale

[spark valve]

Yup he’s saying he didn’t return even as Pharloom was getting ravaged

[marble oasis]

Regardless

[sudden imp]

what is phantom trying to accomplish working the organ?

[spark valve]

That’s not relevant to the point hornet was making

[marble oasis]

By the Haunting yes

[edgy nebula]

she's forced into labor probably

[dire lynx]

maintaining the exhaust organ

[near jasper]

Shes there to keep the citadel waste off

[marble oasis]

Instead I wasted, a coward caged, too weak to witness his grace bound in parody so cruel.

[near jasper]

Got exiled there

[marble oasis]

This is before act 3

[sudden imp]

Man I'm still confused

[spark valve]

None of that is saying why verdania got destroyed…

[near jasper]

Who isnt

[dire lynx]

its all good, we love to answer questions

[spark valve]

That’s such a commonly misunderstood dialogue I don’t really want to explain it for the millionth time

[marble oasis]

Link me to somewhere you did then

[sudden imp]

Who are the snail sages, how long have they been around, what is their relationship with the citadel? They act like they are just outside pagans, but the whole origin story of this whole thing doesn't neatly fall into paganism versus catholics, so maybe I'm getting conflated.

[marble oasis]

It’s clear cut to me - Clover Prince left in the Conductor era which left Verdania vulnerable to the Haunting

[near jasper]

A species of bug related to magic

Against gms

[spark valve]

The haunting wouldn’t cause the changes to verdania’s caverns that we see that’s just not what it does

[dire lynx]

the snails are shamans like we see in the first game, they didnt follow the citadel and their places of worship/magic practice were destroyed for opposing the citadel

[spark valve]

It wouldn’t dry up the caverns and kill all the flora

[sudden imp]

So like if we go back to origin stories, who are the higher beings, why are they so often totally messed up, where did "other" bugs come from, and why is there an oposition?

[edgy nebula]

theyre a mysterious magical family of shamans who just dont like gms' rule

[edgy nebula]

i dont think this is ever said?

[near jasper]

Higher beings are the gods in the franchise

They want followers and probably need them to live

[dire lynx]

"This building's state is a sad example of those who'd dare suggest another path..."

[sudden imp]

seems like gms and radiance are like beings of light... but the pale king also was "white" and the shamans are often "black" like the void... it feels like there must be some sort of yin yang things going on, but I can't untangle it yet.

[edgy nebula]

this doesnt really confirm anything though?

[dire lynx]

at minimum they stopped the shamans from practising at and repairing their chapel

[edgy nebula]

shamans have a fixation with void, atleast in silksong, but theyre just black

[near jasper]

Gms and pale king are the pale breed of higher beings

[marble oasis]

shamans are not void

[near jasper]

They're like that from soul

[dire lynx]

radiance isnt pale

[marble oasis]

Well

[dire lynx]

its in the context of discussing the citadel, i dont see how this confirms nothing

[near jasper]

A

[dire lynx]

What duty binds you to this old chapel, madam? The structure barely stands, and I see no signs of congregation.

Aye! Gone! The lot'o them, fled and hidden. But I'm not leaving till I've set this place right...
...It's that Citadel above, you see. Even now, in Pharloom's long decline, the simple bugs, they're witless before it. Too grand. Too majestic. Too powerful.
This building's state is a sad example of those who'd dare suggest another path...

[marble oasis]

I was going to say the flora started to wither when GP left and the Haunting finished off all the citizens but then I realise the Haunting puppets corpses just fine and there’s nothing there

There’s not even any fossils

[sudden imp]

Is a chapel something that used to be part of the same religion as the citadel or totally separate religion?

[marble oasis]

Gay ass cat bro

[marble oasis]

Snail religion (sneligion)

[near jasper]

Separate

[ionic stump]

Shamans are just colored black with white eyes

[near jasper]

Except maybe reaper

[plain ruin]

Probably depends on the chapel

[ionic stump]

It is entirely a stylistic thing

[sudden imp]

all the other chapels where you get a crest, are from the "snails"?

[near jasper]

And wanderer

[ionic stump]

They arent like kingsmoulds

[plain ruin]

Wanderer chapel is full of pilgrims

[near jasper]

No

[ionic stump]

No lmao

[sudden imp]

what's the beast chapel about?

[marble oasis]

No they’re just independent veneration of a certain figure within that area

[dire lynx]

sperarate, its where the snail shamans carried out their practices, whatever those may be

[near jasper]

Beastly being worshipped some time

[marble oasis]

Like that silk snipper in the Reaper was probably the lebron of that shit

[sudden imp]

but isn't there at least a weaver in wanderer and reaper? What's the big thing in the beast chapel? What even is the architect chapel?

[ionic stump]

Reaper has a moorbug (possibly a silk snipper)
Wanderer has a pilgrim
Beast has a big ass bug
Witch… uhh
Architect has a chorus
Shaman crest is the only one with a snail shell

[marble oasis]

There are no weavers there

[ionic stump]

You don’t bind weavers for crests

[marble oasis]

Architect is the store of all the Architects’ knowledge

[ionic stump]

Only their ancestral art

[dire lynx]

the big thing appears to be the ancestor of the beastfly

[near jasper]

No, bug corpse, architect shell storage room

[sudden imp]

there is definitely a weaver in wanderer and reaper

[plain ruin]

Chapel just seems to be another word for tomb

[near jasper]

Nah

[marble oasis]

You gonna have to back this one up big dawg

[sudden imp]

you are literally binding a crest from a previous weaver, that's that EVA is strongly hinting at

[plain ruin]

No

[near jasper]

Nah theyre just random dudes

[plain ruin]

You’re binding a bug

[near jasper]

Its like binding ed sheeran

[dire lynx]

no, you bind the crest of the dead bugs/clanker inside each chapel

[plain ruin]

Or some other creature sometimes

But no weavers

[marble oasis]

Eva just says that Weavers had crests

[plain ruin]

Weavers are in those burial spires

[marble oasis]

Their own crests like how Hornet starts with Hunter

[sudden imp]

what are we binding to?

[plain ruin]

The dead dude

[near jasper]

Scissor guy

[marble oasis]

Silk snipper/moorbug

[plain ruin]

The non-Weaver dead dude

[near jasper]

From Greymoor

[sudden imp]

scissors guy can have crests?

[marble oasis]

Yeah

[near jasper]

Yes

[marble oasis]

Everyone has a crest

[dire lynx]

everybody has a crest

[marble oasis]

A crest is just the shape of your soul

[blazing sundial]

the act of binding to weavers only gives you ancestral arts and some silk skills

[sudden imp]

you're telling me pilby and sherma have crests?

[marble oasis]

Yes

[near jasper]

Yes

[marble oasis]

Probably wanderer

[sudden imp]

Hmmm... I thought I was doing something particular to weavers... but you're telling me hornet could just stab literally anyone and absorb their crests? Why do we need to go to a chapel to absorb crests?

[near jasper]

1 the bodies are well preserved
2 they had some sort of religious or otherwise importance

[dire lynx]

only certain bugs would have skills particularly useful or advanced enough to benefit hornet

[blazing sundial]

a crest is just the imprint of a bug's memories and identity, acting as a soul essentially