sk-lore

[frosty gate]

But why would they be a Catalyst instead of something related to void

[foggy stratus]

Because they’re powerful soul batteries and work.

[sinful nimbus]

They're spellcasters

[stray fog]

I think I have some copium for this:

"it's not within the skills of us shamans" and "not a place we thought to look" might refer to the specific mechanism with which the ancient civilization's machinery gave tk the abyss shreik spell

[random harbor]

Snail Shaman - Reacting to spells - Reacting to Abyss Shriek

That scream? Ooohh, distorted in such a way... It's not within the skills of us snails to do such a thing.
Wherever you draw this new power from, it's not a place my kind ever thought to look.

@dhruv._19 used /npcs misc name: Snail Shaman category: Reacting to spells dialogue: Reacting to Abyss Shriek

[sinful nimbus]

The fact that you upgrade two spells using the spellcasters energy isn't that strange and is in fact explicitly explained

[foggy stratus]

Clearly either Abyss shriek is was stronger or Howling Wraiths needed more juice to upgrade and as such TK used the fuck ass abyss room for it instead.

[edgy nebula]

fusing soul with void is also something tk does and not them

it makes sense a one of a kind creature could do something like this and the shamans couldnt

[foggy stratus]

-# ignore the countless other vessels in the child murder hole

[edgy nebula]

actually i could've worded that better

theres no real way the shamans could know that their bodies transform soul to void, cause theres nothing for them to even try that on cause tk is a special being

thats what i mean

[frosty gate]

And that makes sense to me, I don't argue that Shamans can Control Void or something. Doing what TK does is for TK only, but I still think it's weird you get it from Snails

[stray fog]

The catalyst explanation is satisfactory imo

[frosty gate]

The only non retconned explanation for the difference between HK Snails and SK Snails, is time

Perhaps Snails became obsessed with Void after the ending of HK

Who knows

[foggy stratus]

Because you use them as a battery to transmutate the spell. It’s not from the shaman, it’s from TK’s own body you just use the snail as a way to trigger said process.

[frosty gate]

I also don't think that makes sense

[foggy stratus]

What doesn’t?

[frosty gate]

Which I would totally believe before Silksong

This is something I would've totally agreed to

But the fact that TC said "Snails like Void" means they had to get the idea from somewhere

And the only Somewhere is the 2 snails that give us Void Spells

[edgy nebula]

caretaker also says shamans power is all from soul

[stray fog]

True actually

[frosty gate]

Back to what I said before, I don't think Shamans can actually use Void as we do in HK, because it makes sense they can't

[stray fog]

Retcon discussions hurt my brain

[stray fog]

Actually only the snail shaman retcon

[frosty gate]

But they are "Fixated" on it

[foggy stratus]

Fuck it the Pharloom Shamans are a different group then the Hallownest Shamans thus explaining the takes on Void differing.

[stray fog]

Then why would hornet be expected to know about their fixations

[edgy nebula]

shamans are all part of a huge family it wouldnt make sense for caretaker to say "our family" and not be referring to all of his family

[frosty gate]

Which would make sense if Caretaker and his bigass forehead didn't says his dialogue

[foggy stratus]

Because she too did the drugs TC did.

[foggy stratus]

Which dialogue?

[edgy nebula]

caretaker is so cool but his design SUCKS

[frosty gate]

Caretaker: Don't play daft. You should well know our family's fixations. Surely you had a hunch?

[edgy nebula]

genuine fetus body

[foggy stratus]

Yeah, fugly ass snail.

[stray fog]

We all have to ask tc about this retcon if they ever do an AMA

[edgy nebula]

he could've atleast kept the necklace

[frosty gate]

I'd rather believe the TC of today than the TC from the past

[stray fog]

Why do none of the skong shamans have bone stuff

[foggy stratus]

Could have been referring to the other Pharloom shamans. Or they spilt off from the other shamans so long ago the take on Void spilt and changed.

[frosty gate]

And if TC says Snails like Void then I have no choice but to assume Ancient Mound Snail is unliked by his family and therefore not invited to the Void Cookout

[foggy stratus]

Too wimpy for the Aesthetic

[edgy nebula]

wrap it up caretaker youre washed

[frosty gate]

I hope to fix the retcon they just patch the dialogue in HK

[foggy stratus]

Bro he doesn’t even look like a snail that’s a slug in a hat

[stray fog]

So are you saying that its a retcon, or are explaining how its not a retcon

[stray fog]

Fr

[frosty gate]

You need to fix like 2 lines of Dialogue

[edgy nebula]

tc doesnt seem to mind drastically changing pre existing lore tbf

[frosty gate]

Which gives me hope they will lobotomize AM Snail into thinking they always liked Void

[edgy nebula]

weve got green prince, romino, every other silksong retcon

[stray fog]

Does anyone have any theories

[foggy stratus]

Like I said, too wimpy for the Aesthetic

[edgy nebula]

they probably just didnt care to make any bone items while they were in hiding

[stray fog]

I guess they're tryna blend in in pharloom cities, and bones wouldn't be good for that

[frosty gate]

It is a retcon. When I talk about retcons I usually try to think of a way this could be saved without changing much of the past story. Retcons don't necesarilly have to be as complex as this one

The problem with Retconsong is that it has a couple of very twisted retcons

[edgy nebula]

walking around with a bone staff in a bone house wearing a bone necklace would definitely draw some attention

[foggy stratus]

I’m just saying, my theory would fix it.

[frosty gate]

Because Herrah being a Weaver is still horrible and I have no way to go around that one

[stray fog]

Shaman void is the worst retcon

[foggy stratus]

Dropped on the head as a pharlid.

[edgy nebula]

lifeblood and herrah weaver are pretty bad too

[stray fog]

Is lifeblood a retcon?

Are you talking about hallownest lacking plasmofiication

[edgy nebula]

not technically since it just adds new information but we had no clue it was evil in hk

[foggy stratus]

That’s because PK outlawed that shit.

[foggy stratus]

I mean, we knew it could transform organs into Lifeblood if over done

We were just kinda blind I guess.

[edgy nebula]

we don't know if he did

salubra calls it a taboo it doesnt mean its illegal

[frosty gate]

Lifeblood is not necesarily a retcon honestly

I think it is by the word's definition of Retcon

But it's not bad

[foggy stratus]

Joni is called a heretic in her charm’s description.

[stray fog]

#LifebloodInfectionRelationsExistedInHK

[frosty gate]

They didn't exist, but they're not weird to see

[edgy nebula]

doesnt mean anything that isnt specified by lifeblood being a taboo in the first place

[frosty gate]

Plasmium and Lifeblood are quite different honestly

[plain ruin]

Don’t know if it was mentioned but the actual Shaman Spells TK learns are all something it interacts with, they’re spells you see physically before picking them up

[foggy stratus]

I mean if it’s a taboo no one would really label you anything if you did it. Joni got called a heretic by someone so clearly at least somebody cared enough to do so.

[foggy stratus]

Tbh I think Plasmium is just what happens if you let Lifeblood spread unchecked. Also it could have been messed with by the alchemist dude.

[plain ruin]

Plasmium Lifeseeds also have wings while the Lifeblood Lifeseeds don’t, which I think is worth noting

[frosty gate]

It literally got injected into an ecosystem not used to having Lifeblood

That's basically all the issue

[foggy stratus]

Oh yeah I forgor

[frosty gate]

In Hallownest, it grew unchecked, but it was controlled by, PK i guess

And it's not like it disappeared

[foggy stratus]

“That shit just turned that kid’s organs into juice!…. Hegemol, burn it down.”-Pale King.

[frosty gate]

Its still there, but no mutations on sight

[foggy stratus]

Pale King was just that good at containment.

[frosty gate]

He did it thrice

Failed at one

[foggy stratus]

-# ignore the moth alright

[frosty gate]

What I do wonder is where did Hornet see the abominations

[foggy stratus]

What abominations?

[edgy nebula]

Radiance infection

[frosty gate]

You think she's talking about Rad?

[edgy nebula]

yeah

[frosty gate]

I mean, fair, i have nothing against that

Although the Plasmid journal entry speaks against it

Pharloom shall quickly learn the curse of this substance. What benefits it provides can be swiftly outweighed.

She clearly knows

[foggy stratus]

She could have been around when it got taboo-efied in Hallownest and seen the what it did to her labeled a taboo.(probably liquified a child’s organs)

[plain ruin]

She does refer to the Infection in some dialogue with Zylotol, but she’s absolutely familiar with the side-effects of Lifeblood/Plasmium

[frosty gate]

Which dialogue?

[plain ruin]

And there’s the Plasmidas journal entry as well

[frosty gate]

Oh yeah that one, I forgot about it

[twin dragon]

everyone died

[plain ruin]

And the Plasmidas entry does mention “aberrations”

[frosty gate]

I think she could be talking about both Lifeblood and Infection

Although, Plasmidas are clearly Plasmium

[plain ruin]

She specifies that it was Plasmium/Lifeblood that caused these aberrations, saying “this substance” instead of “a similar substance”

[frosty gate]

Yeah

[plain ruin]

The Zylotol dialogue could refer to both Lifeblood and Infection, tho

Oh wait is that what you meant

[broken canopy]

She says 'similar aberrations' so it makes it a little ambiguous but it would make sense for her to be referring to both i guess

i mean we do literally see similar aberrations with the butterflies in hollow knight but not much else

[frosty gate]

It honestly has to be just Plasmium tho

She speaks of This substance

[broken canopy]

yeah imo id prefer to just be referring to plasmium

[plain ruin]

But she also calls out Plasmium as the reason, since she saw these aberrations where the substance flourished

[frosty gate]

I still wonder where in the map she could've seen those things

[plain ruin]

Shame TK doesn’t encounter ‘em, otherwise we could have a clue other than somewhere probably near a Lifeblood cocoon

[broken canopy]

yeah then another thing im wondering is that lifeblood seems to flourish in abundance in desolate places(?) which may just be a coincidence, but we do find it in the void and also the howling cliffs, then the wormways

[plain ruin]

Especially since some Cocoons seem to be “stronger” than others, having more butterflies and a wider range of them, as well as dropping more/less Lifeseeds

[frosty gate]

The one in the Void is weird

I think it either got sealed there

Or idk

It probably got sealed there

[plain ruin]

It’s a dream so that could be possible, PK has sealed things in dreams before

[frosty gate]

And PK probably knew that Void and Lifeblood don't mix

For whatever reason

[lone folio]

Maybe it survives in those areas more often because those places aren't as populated by a kingdoms bugs so it doesn't get destroyed.

[frosty gate]

I'm unsure about that, but I can't deny the similarity between the two places where it flourishes

[lone folio]

Alot of the cocoons are hidden and the only reason for that being the case is because something is stopping it from growing in easy to spot places

[edgy nebula]

probably bugs destroying it since they see it as a taboo

[frosty gate]

I don't think it has to be a major something, Grass stops growing where people walk

[lone folio]

Sure but not to that extent

I doubt anyone's walking on the ceiling and by accident also stepping on the cocoons

[frosty gate]

I mean

If you take it more literal you're gonna stop and smell the grass

I meant that if you keep killing things in an area, the thing is gonna learn to not grow in that area

[lone folio]

Like no amount of normal bug activity would stop such a quickly growing plant from spreading

[lone folio]

Yes that's exactly what I was talking about

[frosty gate]

If Lifeblood was purged and any sign of Lifeblood would be purged, it would mean that Lifeblood would learn to grow Hidden

[lone folio]

In areas like howling cliffs there are no bugs that could destroy it so it gets to grow and flourish in peace

[frosty gate]

Yeah, what I mean that it doesn't have to be a Major something

Like, it doesn't have to be a God commanding lifeblood

[lone folio]

But a few messages ago you said that you didn't think it was a major something, am I going crazy?? 😭

[frosty gate]

Oh sorry, typo

[near jasper]

Can yall give me some phantom lore

[spark valve]

gms kid
stationed to manage exhaust from the citadel
dying because of silk deprivation

[muted lantern]

All we know is they are GMS's older silk child, seen as a prototype and discarded for some imperfection, there's a couple possibilities for exactly why they were discarded to be replaced by lace. they seemed to be close with lace after being discarded to the exhaust organ to expel the cities exhaust, due to being neglected by gms and not receiving her silk they rotted away and were slowly dying, deciding they'd rather die in battle than waste away.

They seemed to put on an artificial mask in place of their face

Likely a reference to phantom of the opera

[spark valve]

the whole phantom lace gms dynamic is pretty nonsense but hey that's silksong for ya

[muted lantern]

Phantom could have rebelled and been punished, or was seen as impure. Perhaps they simply were seen as a poor first draft and GMS made her next one stuck as a child in hopes to keep them loyal and emotionally dependant. though that plan was clearly a bad one.

As lace still isn't loyal

[edgy nebula]

pretty sure it's essentially confirmed atp

their appearance, their name, their theme in the files being phantom of the organ

it's really on the nose

[muted lantern]

I wish we were told why phantom was abandoned

[spark valve]

it's kind of the point that we aren't but it's a lame point

[muted lantern]

My assumption is they were just too independent for GMS's tastes and developed their own sense of self beyond being GMS's doll

Hence why lace was made how she was

[spark valve]

lace being made as a contrast to phantom is weird with lace's silk heart dialogue unless you just lump phantom in with weavers but that's also a bit weird

[muted lantern]

How so

[spark valve]

better a child spun pure than them phantom isn't really less pure she's as silk as lace is

[muted lantern]

I think it's purity in a less literal sense

[spark valve]

also better a child spun frail than none phantom is very frail lumping her in with the discarded inferiors is awkward

[muted lantern]

Being disloyal was probably seen as an impurity, or any behavior that's not what GMS wanted

[spark valve]

and it's just not as homogenous a group with phantom lumped in

it's just sloppy

[floral venture]

She seems too frail

[spark valve]

but gms is fine with a frail child

[near jasper]

Phantom having a proper mask different from every proper gms worshipper we see probably means the reason she got discarded is she developed too far from her mother

[muted lantern]

I forget is the silk heart dialogue referring only to lace or not. I've heard an interpretation that it's referring to widow "child spun mad" phantom "child spun frail" and then lace last but idk if that really works

[spark valve]

'better a child spun frail than none' is not something you say in reference to discarding one child because it's too frail

[spark valve]

it's all in reference to lace presumably

it's disavowing the weavers as her children

[muted lantern]

Yeah a lot of gms's dialogue seems to be her describing laces percieved flaws and than saying she's better than nothing. Kinda a fucked up way to think about your own child

[spark valve]

I think maybe gms is a bad guy

[edgy nebula]

honestly i think shes just ignoring phantom in this dialogue

[near jasper]

No widows stolen underwear doesnt count

[spark valve]

apparently which is weird

[edgy nebula]

sk-discussion had this whole argument yesterday on if gms was evil before she was imprisoned

it was so stupid

[muted lantern]

I think it's just phantom was seen as a prototype not actually her child

A failed experiment

[spark valve]

you don't have to tell me an argument in that channel is stupid that's redundant

[muted lantern]

But anyway why do you guys think phantom was tossed out

[edgy nebula]

some arguments are good

[near jasper]

Bald

[edgy nebula]

theyre very very rare

but they exist

[muted lantern]

Let me guess was it the not a ragebaiter guy

[spark valve]

idk

[edgy nebula]

honestly im not sure where it started i think it mightve satrted with some random guy i forgot his name

not a ragebaiter guy was involved in it though, but he was kinda neutral

[spark valve]

I'm not sure gms even actively discarded phantom necessarily

[muted lantern]

I think my idea that they were too much of their own person and developed beyond what they were made for is cool, as it gives good reason for why lace is made the way she is. It makes sense in GMS's twisted worldview to stunt your kids growth to make sure she can never outgrow you.

[spark valve]

sure that's possible

[edgy nebula]

i feel like it's possible phantom was constantly fading somehow and thats why she was discarded

[spark valve]

lot of things are possible even if they don't mesh well with the silk heart dialogue which uh idk you just have to assume gms/tc forgot about phantom

[floral venture]

She's fine with it by Lace's time, who I think is her last child? Maybe she was going for perfection but settled with what she got by the end

[spark valve]

I mean so is Lace

better a frail child than none implies she had no other children

[near jasper]

Its weird the mist has so few bodies

[muted lantern]

I argued that a while ago that lace promising gms she wouldn't fade in her needolin dialogue came off as trying to give reason to not be thrown away like phantom.

[near jasper]

And the exhaust organ area doesnt have any

[muted lantern]

Considering the other lines in her needolin text

[spark valve]

possible but lace doesn't exactly have an accurate understanding of gms's mental state anyways

[muted lantern]

Of her trying to get gms to notice her and see her as good enough

[edgy nebula]

i mean she certainly seems to be trying to deny it, where does it state lace is fading?

[spark valve]

the fading is something that happens when they don't have access to silk

[edgy nebula]

isnt that only mentioned with the weavers though?

[spark valve]

A bug born entirely of thread. Much Silk would have been needed to see her sustained. A fragile form of life, but life nonetheless.

[edgy nebula]

closest thing i can think of is when lace says she spun us to fade

[near jasper]

The entire alternate citadel path is kinda weird

[spark valve]

this too lace sees herself as in the same position as phantom

[near jasper]

Like theres not a single person who opened up the mists in like 30 years

On the road for the sinners which is basically every bug

[muted lantern]

Yeah but my thought is the line frames this fading as a reason to be discarded rather than the result of such. Why say I will not fade alongside other lines giving reasons not to throw her away if fading was only the result of being discarded already.

[near jasper]

Like the mists are caved in but somehow the bodies there also never decomposed

[muted lantern]

It's mostly illusory, also husks don't decay like ours do, as their exoskeleton remains like our bones would so their outer shell sticks around

[edgy nebula]

the humble bug bones also exist

[foggy stratus]

Maybe they’re just hyper specialized feeding tubes.

[muted lantern]

If you shake a husk around it's like maracas with their 2 internal bones rattling inside the shell

[near jasper]

What of the mists is even euclidian enough to be canon

[edgy nebula]

skull tyrant wears a skull

[foggy stratus]

Could just be a shell.

[near jasper]

I mean tbf everything in the marrow looks like bones

[muted lantern]

The truth is that phantoms been hotboxing the exhaust organ and their laced weed is making hornet hallucinate

[edgy nebula]

why do you think skull tyrant is named skull tyrant

[foggy stratus]

It’s a tyrant? Why else?

[blissful harbor]

it’s called bone idk why you would assume it’s not

[near jasper]

Skull as in shell for the head

[edgy nebula]

https://giphy.com/gifs/VCPLIYOGmywr8bS8Jd

[blissful harbor]

i don’t like that picture

[muted lantern]

Bones are used to refer to outer shells in hk

[blissful harbor]

when has that ever happened

[muted lantern]

Harbone bugs are commonly described

[near jasper]

Its weird theres no bodies past the entrance of the mists

[edgy nebula]

theyre never referred to as skulls in hk1

[blissful harbor]

you get turned around

[edgy nebula]

also muckroaches ahve bones aswell

little among us bones

[foggy stratus]

That’s what I was calling the hyper specialized feeding tubes. Source? I made it the fuck up.

[muted lantern]

Skull tyrants wear fossilized skulls of other bufs

Those are likely external skulls tho

[near jasper]

I mean they probably do need hyper specialized food tubes

They eat soul

Actually how the fuck do bugs that eat soul even work

What is the nutritional value of a hornet cocoon

[edgy nebula]

no bones here... i guess crull and benjin prefer their muckroach wings with bones

also a huge waste of meat the abdomen is entirely intact

hornet is wasteful if she were more efficient we couldve had an easier quest

[blissful harbor]

how is she gonna carry the whole thing
she takes off pieces she can fit in her cloak

[near jasper]

Thats the evil container

It fits their memories of being born in bilewater

[edgy nebula]

she can fit 30 damn tools in that cloak im sure she can stuff in a few more pieces of muckroach

[blissful harbor]

the juices will start ruining it ofc

[spark valve]

hornet doesn't eat she doesn't know what parts are good

[near jasper]

Can normal bugs eat soul and gain nutrition from it

[muted lantern]

No but hot springs I think heal their wounds

[near jasper]

Not keep in a soul vessel like groal and soul tyrant presumably are actually eating it

[foggy stratus]

Prolly not. They’re just get super bloated. Or dissolve.

[muted lantern]

Bugs who consume too much soul become like soul master

[near jasper]

Silkeaters

[blissful harbor]

hot springs are just a relaxation thing according to the WJ, not really literal soul

[edgy nebula]

damnit i forgot crull and benjin specifically ask for the guts cause theyre a choice cut

still wasteful though

[edgy nebula]

silkeaters are very bulbous

[near jasper]

Theyre grub shaped

Like the grubs

And muckmaggot grubs

[muted lantern]

Consuming silk has different effects. It doesn't bloat the body unless they are injected with way too much like the guys in whitward

But most citadel bugs have had silk injections presumably

High ranking citadel bugs*

Tho conductors might be bloated by it but we don't get a good look

[near jasper]

The silk husks?

[foggy stratus]

They’re just normal fat.

[muted lantern]

Yeah very different from how soul masters dudes look

[near jasper]

They're open corpses

They dont even have organs

The wheel guys arent even connected

[edgy nebula]

do we think the snail shamans have individual names

and what do we think theyd be

[covert night]

snail shaman in hollow knight would be john shaman

[muted lantern]

Gary is one for sure

[edgy nebula]

i think all of their names would start with G's and theyd make the G a spiral on their signature

[plain ruin]

Probably had names known only to them or something

[foggy stratus]

Gohn, Gammes, Gessica, Gesse, Gamal and Frank.

[plain ruin]

Frank's the fucker in Bilewater, yeah?

[foggy stratus]

Yeah.

[edgy nebula]

and these are?

[foggy stratus]

The shamans from Hallownest. And Frank.

[marble oasis]

I think it would be interesting if they only called each other by their family relations

Or their mound maybe

[near jasper]

Groal's stolen hut mound shaman

[marble oasis]

The Pharloom shamans don’t seem to have mounds since they move around just fine

No mounds, using Pilgrims for Soul, consorting with Void, tsk tsk #DisappointingtheAncestors

[shy sorrel]

Why do the shellwood hunters attack hornet but are chill in bellheart?

The ones with the spears

[unique tangle]

The one in bellhart is like

A single dude

[marble oasis]

The shellwood pond catchers are haunted and the bellhart one is not

[dire lynx]

they are haunted, but he isnt

[shy sorrel]

Oh ok

[craggy smelt]

pray for Reed

(he disappears in act 3)

[random aspen]

can you get in his house or is that a silkpost

where tf is this

[plain ruin]

Longpin room

Above the left exit of Bellhart, behind a Wood Wasp nest

[random aspen]

is he there in act 3

[plain ruin]

Far as I know he disappears in Act 3

[random aspen]

shakra killed him accidentally

[plain ruin]

This room probably isn't even his home, since he flies up into Bellhart whenever you see him in the town

[plain ruin]

Nothing to indicate that

[random aspen]

she did she told me irl

[plain ruin]

Valid enough

[marble oasis]

You’re right it was on purpose

[blissful harbor]

it’s hard to tell common bugs apart

honest mistake on her part

[stray fog]

https://youtu.be/29qxzihCQCU
Steel city mentioned ‼️ ‼️ ‼️

[normal imp]

Imagine a Silkstone game with a steelsoul enemy

[fierce narwhal]

there's cut code of him sitting in the background in act3 bellhart but das it

he has singing animations like the other characters in the background but its very choppy

[grizzled berry]

is there a Godseeker still alive

And plus would Elegy (i got spoiled im on act 1) work like dream nail

[dull agate]

What's the lore meaning for the secret room in architects crest room

Are those the other architects (11?) I think I counted 11

[unique tangle]

There’s 12

[marble oasis]

0th architect

Honestly it's kind of surprising to me that all the previous Architects were robots

[fierce narwhal]

i mean maybe they were originally bugs of a specific line of work similar to the forgebugs, its possible that the architects were one of the first if not the first line of cogwork machines built

[marble oasis]

Sentinels predate them

[edgy nebula]

allat for them to be chud void beings

[fierce narwhal]

really? on the wiki its says that the first architect made the Sentinels

(no I'm not using the fandom wiki just fyi)

[marble oasis]

Ah I got it mixed up

[fierce narwhal]

its fine!

[frosty gate]

Well if there's 12 it wouldn't make sense those are the dead Architects

[frosty gate]

Are you sure the 7th you are counting isn't the shadow of the 6th?

[unique tangle]

Yes cause that’s not how shadows work

[frosty gate]

There's no way there are 12 corpses

[frosty gate]

I just saw the Antennas, yeah

TC oversight maybe?

[marble oasis]

We went over and over this

[frosty gate]

I just got here

[marble oasis]

It makes no sense but twelve there are nonetheless

[marble oasis]

We as in mola and i and others have gone over and over this room in the past

[stray fog]

Maybe one or more of them are failed prototypes

[marble oasis]

Maybe there were two architect nines who the fuck knows man

[spark valve]

one of them is 13 and 12 was supposed to get replaced a while ago but the replacement broke down somehow

[frosty gate]

Mola? Damn, they've been around?

[marble oasis]

?

[frosty gate]

I'll believe it

[frosty gate]

You mean Mola the one from the wiki or am I tripping?

[marble oasis]

Yes that mola

[frosty gate]

Oh ok

[marble oasis]

Her

[frosty gate]

Oh I didn't recognize her with that username 🥀

[unique tangle]

Maybe they’ll remove one

Particularly 8

No one will miss 8 being gone

[frosty gate]

You can barely see it, so it makes sense it'd be 8

[stray fog]

I can't even see 7

[unique tangle]

If they can delete poor Romino they can delete one architect corpse

[stray fog]

Retconsong but good

[frosty gate]

We'll never forget Romino

[marble oasis]

As far as I’m concerned you can take out seven and eight and have architect 1 be a real bug

[frosty gate]

This would also be a nice course of action because I'd like First Architect to be a bug

[marble oasis]

If anything she should be a weaver

Murglin maybe

[unique tangle]

I’m fine with the architects being robots from the start

Twelfth speaks of the directive cage as if it’s been programmed from the start

And who else would program such a directive into the architects other than the weavers who would’ve been the creators of the first architects

[marble oasis]

I agree with that but at the same time it’s kind of weird to me that they programmed a robot to be good at making robots

Like First Architect was really creative with it they made the Sentinels

[frosty gate]

Nah, I don't think it should be a Weaver

[marble oasis]

So it would be cool if whoever was the first architect was such a robogeek they roboticised themselves

[unique tangle]

The sentinels weren’t even that cool apparently

Given that the core is supposed to be the peak of architect creation

[frosty gate]

That's a good point, unless they made it so that the First Architect made them all to be loyal to them, but i don't think it matters

[spark valve]

Part of the point of the citadel was for them to not have to do the chores

[marble oasis]

Murglin liked making things though

[unique tangle]

Murglin made a gun

[marble oasis]

Anyway I realise it doesn’t matter because they would have been made by a Weaver anyway

[spark valve]

liked is a strong word

[marble oasis]

She just wouldn’t be counted as the first

[unique tangle]

Yeah I think the first architect would’ve been like

Definitionally an architect

[marble oasis]

An Architect is a robot bug with that body type and that directive

Not just any robotsmith

[unique tangle]

I would say so

[frosty gate]

I agree to that

But I like the vagueness of not knowing who really made the Architects

It could very much be the same case as Cogwork Dancers

[unique tangle]

The weavers likely made the architects given the directions of the directive cage

[marble oasis]

Clover Prince just always looked like that actually

[unique tangle]

Other option would have to be the conductors

But I don’t feel like that works well

[marble oasis]

The only “mould” involved was making a perfect copy

[unique tangle]

Given that the conductors are treated as being on the same level of class as the architects

[marble oasis]

It would be a bit weird for the Conductors to program in deference to Weavers

[unique tangle]

Yeah that too

[frosty gate]

Yeah, what I was trying to say is that they did the same thing to another bug and turned them into First Architect and then that Architect just made more of itself

[edgy nebula]

that's a pretty cool idea

[marble oasis]

I was doing a bit

You could be right

[unborn hamlet]

btw guys is phanthom and lace sisters?

[marble oasis]

Yea

[frosty gate]

"Oh this guy is really clever. Let's inmortalize their shell and make them into an eternal architect that will not defy us"

[edgy nebula]

yes

phantom is lace's older sister

[unborn hamlet]

i though lace was older-

[frosty gate]

Not really, after all they're basically at the same level.

[frosty gate]

Considering Phantom's journal entry, she's the oldest

[marble oasis]

immortalise a craftsbug’s shell in iron
the cogs fail over time anyway

[unborn hamlet]

ooh i never read the journal for some reason xd

[frosty gate]

"Oh, our toy is about to break. Let's make them make more of itself so it never dies"

I genuinely believe Weavers thought Slavery was flattery

[finite wind]

why tf would the citadel need judges and a prision when they are so desperate for workers that they didn't even want to let them die

[unique tangle]

Honestly my theory is that the weavers only left behind 12 architect shells and never passed on the knowledge of how to create architects

[finite wind]

are they stupid

[stray fog]

Gotta keep the people in check

[unique tangle]

Which is what the error is that the twelfth runs into at the end of its life

[stray fog]

Im talking about the prison

[finite wind]

the thing is, they went to reason for stupid reasons

[unique tangle]

The conflict between the directive given by the weavers of keeping pharloom eternal yet not passing on a method to keep making more architects

[finite wind]

so there was no point in putting them in there since they were never a threat

[marble oasis]

13 architect shells

[unique tangle]

Thus causing a logical error in twelfths system

[marble oasis]

I think it’s interesting 12A says the knowledge was taken by time rather than lost

[unique tangle]

Ok fine 13 of them

[marble oasis]

I think the Architects had it at one point

[stray fog]

Apostasy is a valid reason for imprisonment because they didn't want the fake religion to fail

Indolence is valid because they wanted people to keep working for the citadel

[unique tangle]

But if the architects had it and simply lost it, it would just be an unfortunate tragedy wouldn’t it. For twelfth to claim that there is an fundamental error in the directive of the weavers implies a deeper issue imo

[finite wind]

the imprisioned bug was more than willing to work I bet

[spark valve]

the fundamental error is the idea that the citadel can last eternal

architect is realizing the citadel is doomed and that that may be a good thing

[marble oasis]

Ehh

The directive is for Pharloom eternal

But 12 cannot make another Architect so she can’t fulfill eternity

[unique tangle]

Yea but her wording for it implies a more fundamental flaw I think

S-s-strange... 'For Pharloom eternal,' states the d-d-directive-cage. But how can eternity sustain without an Architect to serve? This seems e-e-error. An end? An error... welcome?

If the weavers passed down the method to build more architects

[frosty gate]

Sincerely believe Judges were Citadel creations and not Weaver

[unique tangle]

And they simply lost it

[frosty gate]

Citadel as in, Conductors

[unique tangle]

Would it be considered “strange”?

[spark valve]

the no dying thing is certainly conductor era

[unique tangle]

Wouldn’t it just be an unfortunate tragedy

[finite wind]

my point works for whoever is ruling the citadel

[frosty gate]

Conductors are morons

They didn't care for new workers, they just cared for loyalty and power

[marble oasis]

I think she just never considered her own mortality before

[finite wind]

yes they did

[marble oasis]

Judges are not really to keep people out at all costs

[finite wind]

why would they be so desperate to maintain the ones they have if they are going to be picky with new workers

[frosty gate]

The fact that they say "An error welcome" makes me really feel like what I said earlier about First architect being done the same as Cogwork Dancers is true

[marble oasis]

They’re there to ensure the docile, subservient, unarmed get in

[unique tangle]

That’s possible but given that she knows all her peers have died would this knowledge that she cannot fulfil the weavers goal of pharloom eternal not be that strange to her

[edgy nebula]

topic?

[unique tangle]

She should know that her type isn’t immortal and she knew that she cannot create more of her type so at that point when the ability to make more architects was lost shouldn’t she have already realized that the directive was failed

[glacial warren]

Well they dislike the idea of death and want the Citadel to have permanence, hence the creation of the Whiteward.

[unique tangle]

I just think her wording implies more that the ability to create architects really was just never passed down to them and was lost with the weavers

But that’s just my interpretation

[near jasper]

Whats the topic Rn?

[marble oasis]

Architects

[frosty gate]

Architects

[edgy nebula]

what about them

[marble oasis]

It is interesting

[glacial warren]

Ye, the knowledge on Architects and their make was lost, so the 12th doesn’t know how to repair herself or build a successor.

[marble oasis]

I just wonder why the Weavers limited themselves like that

[spark valve]

they wouldn't have

[unique tangle]

Cause they left pharloom knowing it was a futile task

[spark valve]

no they didn't

[unique tangle]

They tricked the bugs into thinking they could keep GMS asleep forever

[glacial warren]

Not so much a limitation and moreso just the inevitable march of time. Even something as important as Isamor got forgotten, buried deep in the Vaults.

[marble oasis]

Like why stop at 12

[frosty gate]

Because if they did pass the knowledge, what would stop them from breaking code and rising up to the weavers by making hundreds of Architects

[unique tangle]

13

[marble oasis]

13

[near jasper]

Throw water at them

[frosty gate]

It's easier to control most likely

[glacial warren]

I think 12 was stopped at because by the time she came into operation, the Weavers had abandoned Pharloom and a lot of time had passed, resulting in the knowledge of repairing and making Architects was lost.

[spark valve]

they didn't abandon pharloom they just died out

[glacial warren]

A lot of them did in fact run for the hills, as evidenced by the Weavers camping out in Hallownest.

[unique tangle]

I think they just left behind a flawed system (which is the error that the twelfth realizes), they knew the citadel was gonna fail anyways so they just created 12 and left it at that, maybe the process was too complex to create more before they left

[spark valve]

that happened before

[near jasper]

Weaversong description

[glacial warren]

A lot of the Weaver faction kind of went ‘oh SHIT’ upon realizing the Citadel was doomed to fail at keeping their Mother asleep forever and got the hell out of dodge.

[spark valve]

that didn't happen

[edgy nebula]

the citadel weavers were the ones who mummified themselves methinks

[spark valve]

weavers died out believing the citadel would work forever

[marble oasis]

Could it be that a Weaver was around to make another one whenever the last one failed instead of premaking 12 13?

[glacial warren]

It did. You find Lore detailing their choice to flee if you go to the Weavenest at the Far Fields and descend into a hidden chamber.

[spark valve]

nope that's not what that's about

[edgy nebula]

that was before the citadel

[frosty gate]

It happened with her awake

That said, we've had this conversation before

[spark valve]

however there is a rune harp conveniently explicitly stating that they believed the citadel's song would continue forever without ceasing

[marble oasis]

Don’t they know that only Void is eternity potential force that can deny Time

[glacial warren]

Eh true they believed that. At first.

[unique tangle]

I think that’s a bit weird for the timeline as to when the said weaver was still around and how many architects they went through prior to abandoning the citadel

[spark valve]

no

that was

their last words

[glacial warren]

But as time marched the Weavers began to realize the Citadel was faulty somewhere down the line and the Grand Mother was starting to become lucid. Hence they panicked and a good chunk of them fled for the hills.

[spark valve]

nope

"the last words of the weavers"

[marble oasis]

to be honest I read never to cease never to silence as not being allowed to let it stop, not that it couldn’t possibly stop

[glacial warren]

So they left the place in the care of the Conductors and most fled for the hills, while some branches stayed behind to try and puzzle out a way of dealing with the Grand Mother Silk.

[marble oasis]

That is the burden

[spark valve]

'never to cease never to silence' is not very ambiguous about whether they thought it would

[unique tangle]

I do think premaking 12/13 is the hardest part to explain but I think it’s an intentional flaw left behind by the weavers

Pointing back to twelfth’s line again

[glacial warren]

It’s never made exactly clear how much of the Weaver faction split between those who stayed and those who fled their home to escape Silk waking up, but a certain amount did just flee from Pharloom outright out of fear of facing their divine maker once the lullaby stopped working.

[unique tangle]

It’s just something they didn’t account for, or just didn’t bother to account for as they knew it wasn’t going to work forever anyways

[edgy nebula]

here's a simplified weaver timeline

weavers build weavenests
they get sick of gms so some run for the hills
the ones that stayed plan the citadel
citadel is made
weavers make the religion, quickly growing tired
they scheme up plans to get rid of gms so they dont have to work anymore
none of the plans get that far so they give the citadel to the conductors, many die and others mummify themselves into the statues, awaiting hornet

atleast this is what it is afaik

[frosty gate]

Maybe the Architects had the knowledge but it got diluted everytime a new architect was made?
This one makes sense to me considering Twelfth forgot the song

[spark valve]

that's not when or why they fled

[marble oasis]

Maybe making an Architect takes quite a while and whichever Weaver was on Architect duty just got up to 13 whenever everyone decided it was time to kill themselves

[unique tangle]

That is a possibility yeah

[marble oasis]

This is also true

[glacial warren]

That is exactly why they fled. Again, the Lore found in the Far Fields Weavenest proves this.

[spark valve]

no it doesn't

they fled to escape gms's oppression not her potential waking up

[edgy nebula]

they fled to escape gms’ silken sight, implying she was awake

[glacial warren]

They fled out of the simple, primal instinct of fear because they realized their scheme wouldn’t hold up the way they believed it would initially.

[spark valve]

no they didn't

[near jasper]

I mean she did use it while asleep

[edgy nebula]

she started hunting down weavers after the song waned and she was starting to become lucid

[glacial warren]

They did. Again, there’s a whole stretch of Lore describing that somewhere down the line they realized the Citadel and its mechanism wasn’t as infallible as they’d believed and so they fled for fear of knowing the Mother would wake up.

[spark valve]

and was heavily drained of silk she might not have even had to do that if it wasn't for the citadel

[spark valve]

no there isn't

[unique tangle]

Yeah that’s possible but again why is it phrased differently tho, why is forgetting the melody just an apparent natural part of being an architect but not having the ability is instead treated like a fundamental flaw in the whole directive of the citadel

[edgy nebula]

please prove it

[spark valve]

nothing ever indicates that they thought the citadel would fail and it's explicitly stated they believed it wouldn't fail

[frosty gate]

I think it makes the most sense imo, each Architect started to feel their last error approaching, so they made a new one, but they didn't have the time to pass on the knowledge of how to make more

[near jasper]

Theres not really anything to indicate shes running out of silk

[spark valve]

Last words of the Weavers.

"Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence.

We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."

[marble oasis]

My biggest thing is if you make all those shells ahead of time how do you only get the silkfly in whenever the current one dies

[glacial warren]

All you need to do is go beneath the Far Fields Weavenest’s main chamber and find the Lore down below. It requires doing a Puzzle involving having to cap out Hornet’s speed.

[spark valve]

it doesn't say what you're claiming it does

[edgy nebula]

we’ve disproved that but youve ignored us

[glacial warren]

How have you disproved it? The evidence exists and i’ve told you where it is.

[spark valve]

oh right hollow knight fans can't read

[unique tangle]

Just have the current architect plant a silkfly and start up the next, their dialogue explicitly states that they have a method which passes down the memories and knowledge of all previous architects

[edgy nebula]

“Flee, sisters, Flee until your strength exhausts, so far you may at last escape her silken sight.”

her being able to see the weavers implies she is awake, and the urgency of the message conveys that she is a threat at that time, which she wouldnt be, cause she’s asleep

[marble oasis]

Except the song

[unique tangle]

Idk if what silkfly being used matters as much as the architect’s shell construction

[glacial warren]

Hrm. It’s left vague but still the Weavers did flee at some point.

[marble oasis]

No it wouldn’t, the body takes over

[frosty gate]

It also says that it was "taken by time"

One cannot. The skill to construct an Architect... That was taken by t-t-time. I am the last-final. The core remains to sustain the song, but no more Architects to tend-toil or build anew.

Maybe the flaw they see in the Directive Cage is just a paradox for this one specifically because they can't make more Architecs? Twelfth could've been made with the Directive of Pharloom Eternal, but not with the knowledge of creating new Architects because the previous one didn't leave the knowledge

[unique tangle]

Yea tho I assume they prolly forgot more than just the song over time

[marble oasis]

But you would have to carefully stagger it or else you exhaust all the bodies at once

[marble oasis]

Also wouldn’t the bodies start to fail anyway if not in use

[frosty gate]

I mean of course. My current bet is that Cindril Weavers fled at the same time Atla Weavers rebelled

[glacial warren]

Perhaps.

[unique tangle]

Maybe but if you keep them preserved well it seems like they can last a long time while not in use

[glacial warren]

We know the Atla Weavers’ scheme involved making Eva in an attempt to reverse-engineer a Goddess to combat the Grand Mother, but they failed and Eva was made too fragile for the task.

[unique tangle]

Like second sentinel

[near jasper]

Or most of deep docks

[marble oasis]

True

[frosty gate]

Atla made the Citadel

[spark valve]

that is Not What Atla's Plan Was

[marble oasis]

What disused robots are well preserved in deep docks

[spark valve]

eva wasn't supposed to fight gms or supplant her eva was an attempt at making more weavers

[marble oasis]

The disused machinery we see fucking breaks the first time we try use it

[frosty gate]

Stated by Eva herself

[glacial warren]

Pretty sure there’s Lore in that Weavenest that’d claim otherwise.

[unique tangle]

Deep docks has automatons?

[marble oasis]

Divinity mimicked in form too frail

[glacial warren]

They made her as ‘Divinity Mimicked’, what do you think that implies?

[spark valve]

weavers notoriously saw themselves as divine as well as the act of motherhood

[near jasper]

The weavers copied gms

[spark valve]

I was born within this space. To leave would be my death, an uninspired end, though one I've sometimes wished would come.
I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task.
Hornet: I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.
Hornet: Are you too an attempt to defy that cruel constraint?
A flawed attempt. A life spun from rune and shell, sustained only by its cage. My thoughts may mimic a Weavers, but my senses are my own.
Over time, that difference brought only distance between us.

[glacial warren]

They weren’t trying to copy themselves, they were trying to copy a Pale Being and thus forge a weapon able to oppose their Mother. But the attempt was botched since trying to, you know, make a Goddess is a hardy task.

[marble oasis]

I agree that Eva is their attempt at a child

But she’s an attempt at a divine child

[near jasper]

Where did the weapon part come from

[spark valve]

which the weavers were

[marble oasis]

They weren’t

They knew that at this point

[glacial warren]

Again, form ‘Divinity Mimicked’. Put two and two together.

[near jasper]

Which is the other 2 bro 😭

[spark valve]

gang fs got locked up for apostasy for what she said, assuming the weavers were on the same page about that is not well founded

[near jasper]

Shes a mimicked gms how is that a fucking gun

[edgy nebula]

even after fs was imprisoned they still thought they were divine what do you think she was imprisoned for

[spark valve]

fs claimed they weren't divine that doesn't mean the other weavers agreed

[edgy nebula]

cause they challenged the weaver's idea they were divine

[glacial warren]

Sinner got locked up because she knew too much. She’d figured out the Weavers’ true origins and that their ‘divinity’ was false.

[near jasper]

Its weird how late in time fs was imprisoned

The mumification plan was already in motion by that time

[spark valve]

no it wasn't

[marble oasis]

FS is in on it

[near jasper]

?

[frosty gate]

Actually, we don't know if they knew the truth by this point

[marble oasis]

naive foundation

[edgy nebula]

could that not be just worshipping gms

[marble oasis]

Also FS being Atla if you buy into that

[spark valve]

gms being a naive foundation is true irrespective of her or their divinity but again fs thinking the weavers aren't divine doesn't mean they all agree on that point

[frosty gate]

I do, it's a nice theory

[glacial warren]

Ye true. Not all of them agreed with it, but the flashback from Sinners’ perspective proves the Weavers themselves aren’t truly divine and never were. They’re just souped-up Pharlids.

[spark valve]

that's not even an objective truth divinity is a more abstract concept and beings elevated by a god could be considered divine fs just doesn't

[glacial warren]

Eh not really? Again they’re just basic animals that got upgraded by a Goddess’ power, but they’re not Demigods or Godlings.

At best they’re advanced Casters and can do cool Magic stuff with their Silk but beyond that.

[spark valve]

animals magically enhanced by a god could absolutely be considered divine

[near jasper]

"beings elevated by a god could be considered Divine"

[frosty gate]

If God ascends a human, are they or are they not a demigod

[glacial warren]

A Demigod would imply a ‘child’ of a divine being, I.E. Hornet.

[plain ruin]

I think FS knew from the start that they were false divinity. Some of her needlolin dialogue says “cursed to know”, which would make sense if she was the first Weaver and if she was able to witness the elevation of other Weavers

She was the successful prototype

Not perfect, but satisfactory for GMS, and so she elevated the rest of the Weavers she desired to have under her

[spark valve]

divine doesn't mean demigod or god it just means related to a god

[glacial warren]

In fact come to think of it, in large part the Weavers never lost a lot of their base Pharlid attributes.

[plain ruin]

Fixing the imperfect mask, sealing away knowledge of their origins in the process

[spark valve]

not in a specifically biological sense I hope that doesn't need to be specified

[near jasper]

I have a little theory about first sinners mask

[glacial warren]

Like most of their combat outside of the Silk stuff amounts to doing exactly what the Pharlids’ gameplan is: ‘Charge at it and Rip And Tear with my claws until it dies.’

[edgy nebula]

honestly fs's mask being like that makes me wonder

was first sinner getting her mask taken really that bad

that thing is hollow it couldnt have been that bad

[plain ruin]

Either way, I mean that they are not gods, merely pretending to be. The other weavers believed themselves to be genuine gods, divinity, but FS knew

[idle mesa]

widow* also YES

like masks are what define a character

[near jasper]

The masks in silksong are used to define a bug having an identity like phantom

[edgy nebula]

yeah widow mb

[idle mesa]

when widows mask was taken she lost her IDENTITY

id be tweaking too

[spark valve]

correct

[edgy nebula]

im not really sure about that? theyre hugely metaphorical in the world of hk

[near jasper]

The weaver Masks imo are the worshiping input gms made them with

[idle mesa]

they are but that is what they are

[glacial warren]

Yeah Widow just went mad. My guess is Widow was a resident of the Slab, punished via Casting for an ‘unnamed Sin’.

[idle mesa]

like masks define who you are

[edgy nebula]

certain magic masks can change personality but im not necessarily sure if weaver's masks can be considered like that

[near jasper]

First sinners mask naturally broke from the sheer amount of rage she had

[idle mesa]

hk mask maker said this too

its like

[edgy nebula]

mask maker is an insane bug who speaks in tongues who can see your inner self im pretty sure hes being metaphorical

[idle mesa]

bobbie

think like

every character ever has a mask

basically every

[near jasper]

Except those ones

[glacial warren]

We don’t know what exactly she did to result in her punishment being that severe but then again fanaticism does things to a person.

[idle mesa]

bugs need masks for identity

[edgy nebula]

they dont

[near jasper]

Most bugs

[idle mesa]

dude

[edgy nebula]

maskless bugs exist and nonsapient masked bugs also exist

[idle mesa]

yes most

[spark valve]

not every character has a mask bugs don't need masks for identity there are a ton of things that don't even have the white faces

[idle mesa]

usually pale beings

like obv radiance doesnt need a mask

or gms

[near jasper]

And fleas

[idle mesa]

true but thats like

eh

[near jasper]

I can ignore grub forms of beings not having masks since basically toddlers

[idle mesa]

godly toddlers

lore in tower of love

they are quite powerful

[near jasper]

Not the grubs

[idle mesa]

yeah

[near jasper]

Just bug grubs in general

[idle mesa]

ah

yes yes

[near jasper]

Like silkeaters

[edgy nebula]

what even is the metaphorical meaning of mask maker like what is he trying to tell us

that all deserve love?

[near jasper]

Oh yk

[idle mesa]

hoenstly the mask makers

are such a grey spot

lorewise

[glacial warren]

There are also sentient maskless Bugs in Pharloom, I.E. the Greymoor and Sinner’s Road workers, and the tribe of Stilkin.

[idle mesa]

cz like

masks might also contain?

cz lucid mask makers seem to be much more knowledged

and mr mushroom has a simmilar effect in his eyes

its all very odd

[near jasper]

Masks are the backup for if a bug have no identity

[edgy nebula]

mask makers have the sight which lets them see the inner workings and inner soul of bugs

[near jasper]

Like phantom wasnt meant to have one

[idle mesa]

this case is coo

cool

[glacial warren]

I love how Hornet tries to converse with Mr. Mushroom and she just seems pleasantly endeared to his enigmatic nature.

[idle mesa]

cz shes not wearing it sometimes

[edgy nebula]

but all bugs have identity that's a message reinforced by the themes of hk, with no vessels being hollow

[idle mesa]

dude i NEED more mr mushroom content

she refers to him as the "herald"

[near jasper]

Look man its weird

[idle mesa]

like thats tuff

[spark valve]

mask makers aren't literally talking about masks they're talking about identities

[idle mesa]

i

[idle mesa]

which are GIVEN by masks

which is why widow was tweaking shit

[glacial warren]

Ye like she respects him and treats him as like a somewhat weird sage.

[idle mesa]

which is why first sinner was slightly tweaking

[edgy nebula]

why though

[idle mesa]

masks very much dictate a bugs identity

[spark valve]

widow is 'tweaking shit' because she's a zealot

[near jasper]

Oh you know

[idle mesa]

a what

[near jasper]

Widow was tweaking because she was hotboxing on silk fumes

[glacial warren]

Ye I agree. I think she went mad long before her Mask was removed.

[edgy nebula]

zealot

[idle mesa]

ah

[spark valve]

because it's cool

[idle mesa]

well thats cz of her mask being remove

[spark valve]

and thematically relevant in hk

[glacial warren]

Again personal theory is she was imprisoned in the Slab and punished via Casting for an ‘Unnamed Sin’.

[idle mesa]

they ripped that shit clean off and stuck pins in her back

[edgy nebula]

why is it needed though? no bugs really struggle with identity nor need masks afaik

[idle mesa]

and forced her to toil for haunted bellheart

[edgy nebula]

aside from the vessels i suppose they struggle with identity a little

[near jasper]

I mean styx is there

[edgy nebula]

but theyre the only things that come to mind

[idle mesa]

dude i forgot about styx

[edgy nebula]

styx is a freak with multiple personality disorder

[near jasper]

He legit doesnt have a face

[idle mesa]

he regularly switches masks

[near jasper]

Styx and silkeaters are by far some of the weirdest bugs in the entire series

[edgy nebula]

styx is just weird i dont like talking about him

[idle mesa]

i mean

cz he doesnt fit ur lore

[edgy nebula]

why is he there why is skynx there what is he jus why son

[near jasper]

Skynx is probably a nosk

[idle mesa]

big maybe

also slight coincidence

[edgy nebula]

he has very glaring differences skynx is just a mystery

[foggy fractal]

😭 son im crine!

[idle mesa]

but styx and that girl in ducts

yk the

longclaw quest

[near jasper]

Huntress

[idle mesa]

yes her

[glacial warren]

Ah the Huntress yeah.

[idle mesa]

they have simmilar masks

[edgy nebula]

they have no relation

[idle mesa]

and share a

no no

i have one

[near jasper]

I mean their species seem to breed a lot

[idle mesa]

their masks are similar and like

they both like serving

[near jasper]

And are caniballistic

[idle mesa]

ok so like

i dont think this runs in the species

[near jasper]

Not that hard to find a mask from them id assume

[stray fog]

Styx's mask is fake

[edgy nebula]

breeding silkeaters is specifically a job styx takes on when he equips the Simp Mask™

[idle mesa]

its more that we STARVE her in order for that to happen

[idle mesa]

still a masks

[near jasper]

I meant huntress

[idle mesa]

mask

[near jasper]

They should scrap sea of sorrow to give styx more lore

[idle mesa]

thats a funny way to spell 3rd claw mirror

[edgy nebula]

also i dont even think their masks look that similar

[near jasper]

Its weird styx has so much knowledge on silk

Even if he was a greymoor slave

[idle mesa]

i mean thats close to identical

if you ask me

[near jasper]

How does he instantly clock the needolin is silk while barely looking at it

[edgy nebula]

vaguely in the general face shape i guess?? but also like, not really?

[idle mesa]

they do what

[near jasper]

He knows how to nest in silk Without being haunted

[runic acorn]

isnt it kinda obvious?

[idle mesa]

i cant be tweaking

they look so simmilar

[glacial warren]

There are minor differences in the horn/antler prongs but yeah overall the same shape.

[karmic tartan]

It's not just the masks, the entire creature looks similar, look at how the body is separated and it's the same color

[edgy nebula]

being honest if he didnt have nostrils i dont think theyd be compared so much

[idle mesa]

this yes

[idle mesa]

theyre both servant ish

idk wym

[near jasper]

?

[edgy nebula]

they arent?

[idle mesa]

yeah

[near jasper]

Its a white string

[karmic tartan]

The only thing huntress is serving is her brood

[idle mesa]

close enough

im trying here

[edgy nebula]

huntresses character is about feeding her brood and styx is only a servant cause he has on his simp mask

[near jasper]

He wasnt even looking at it at all while singing

[idle mesa]

so like

masks do dictate identity

[near jasper]

Styx has a whole fucking nest of silk and is never haunted

[edgy nebula]

i mean he might just be insane in the membrane

it's ambiguous

[idle mesa]

no no

[near jasper]

And no one in his little house is haunted

[idle mesa]

if he has a simp mask

[stray fog]

It might have something to do with his maskless nature

[idle mesa]

h

[idle mesa]

maybe but

a lot of bugs are also maskless

[karmic tartan]

I think the mask only dictates his identity because he's faceless

[near jasper]

Skynx And the silkeaters are just unhaunted

For fun ig

[idle mesa]

same reason as trobbio

[glacial warren]

Not really? Tons of maskless Bugs, I.E. Greymoor and Sinner’s Road workers plus the Stilkin are still Hunted en-masse.

[stray fog]

Nymm wasn't faceless, but the grimmkin mask is probably what made him serve the troupe

[idle mesa]

like

[stray fog]

I meant to say faceless

Like without a head

[karmic tartan]

I think the nightmare heart is a different scenario and shouldn't be treated as the same thing as Styx

[idle mesa]

nightmare heart is yeah

different

[edgy nebula]

grimm's troupe hide themelves in forms dreamed and the nmh's nature as a hb could easily let him control mortal bugs

he cant be used as an example for masks changing identity imo

[idle mesa]

widow is the clearest example

by far

[glacial warren]

Ye the Nightmare Heart is a powerful entity. The fact the Nightmare King is such a small creature is still funny, though.

[stray fog]

True

[near jasper]

Styx

[idle mesa]

him too yeah

but widow is VERY clear that her shit was ripped off and shes tweaking

[edgy nebula]

both widow and styx are insane in the membrane, masks are hugely metaphorical and i think that's that

[near jasper]

And the mask makers

[idle mesa]

how can you be so sure

whos to say

[edgy nebula]

i cant be but you cant be either

[idle mesa]

i mean

theres more merrit to mask

[glacial warren]

Eh I think she went mad long before her Mask came off. Her Mask being removed exacerbated it but her madness seems largely her own.

[near jasper]

Styx isnt that insane

[idle mesa]

we see masks changing idenities twice

[idle mesa]

im like almost certain its the mask

like it made her loyal

to gms

[near jasper]

Then they took it off and she still was

[idle mesa]

no i mean

no weaver was actually loyal to gms

i think

not sure

[stray fog]

And the other Weavers weren't loyal with the mask

[glacial warren]

But then why is she still so fanatical even without it?

[idle mesa]

we dunno how she was before

im presuming this on how other weavers act

[karmic tartan]

I believe there's a difference between maskless and faceless, the maskless are impacted by masks but not dictated by them, only the faceless are a reflection of their mask

[edgy nebula]

i mean he kind of is, his masks could very easily just not be magic, if we take into consideration masks being a metaphor for identity, styx could represent multiple personality disorder or people changing themself for others

[glacial warren]

My guess is Widow was hyper-fanatical to the Grand Mother to the point of madness. She did something that went too far in her worship and this landed her in the Slab, where she was punished via Casting, having her Mask ripped off and the pins driven into her spine.

[idle mesa]

thats deep

[edgy nebula]

i mean in silksong mask is also used to refer to a bug's natural shell

[near jasper]

what if styx not having a mask is from his identity being destroyed from being enslaved for so long

[edgy nebula]

blurs the line between face and mask alot

[idle mesa]

i js think they ripped her shit clean off

[idle mesa]

it is?

[edgy nebula]

yes mask maker calls hornet's face a mask when it isnt worn at all

there's also the gromlings and maskflies in hk

[idle mesa]

is it not a mask

[edgy nebula]

no she's born with it

[idle mesa]

i mean

eh

theres empty masks in hk abyss

and if we guess that theyre made slightly simmilar

then she was js born and grew into it

[glacial warren]

Hornet’s circumstances differ immensely from the Vessels. She’s her own category.

[near jasper]

I mean masks being made of bones is probably a reason your identity changes when using it

[edgy nebula]

even if she was gromlings and maskflies are there which are definitely not wearing masks that are made

[idle mesa]

not IMMENSLY

[karmic tartan]

Maskmaker lore is still so vague

[idle mesa]

she’s still pale offspring

[edgy nebula]

theyre never stated to be made of bone

[glacial warren]

Partially but she’s still technically a hybrid and not a full Godling.

[near jasper]

Its really the only material we know of they could be made from

[edgy nebula]

they could be made of literally anything

rock, pale ore of some sort

anything

[near jasper]

Pale ore is too rare

[karmic tartan]

I think masks are to Styx what crests are to hornet

[edgy nebula]

i honestly agree with tammo that masks are metaphorical and just represent identity but also i do not care an ounce about mask discussion

[near jasper]

Masks are cool ig

Not much we can learn from them

[karmic tartan]

Maskmaker appreciation is literally in my name I want to know more about maskmakers and masks

Could just be me though

[humble oasis]

wonder how many hours were put into making masks for skynx's identity crisis

[near jasper]

I think those are stolen from corpses

[near jasper]

Also dont you mean styx's

Styx will probably be pretty good for the rebuilding of pharloom

He seems to have insane amounts of knowledge on silk

Do you think mask makers use masks to last hundreds of years to serve a kingdom

[karmic tartan]

Yeah that seems likely

[karmic tartan]

I mean the process to make masks is called a very difficult process, so I doubt they'd be able to make very many, which makes it much more useful to have longer-standing masks

[near jasper]

TC should scrap their next game for styx and silkeater lore

[frosty gate]

Seems to be the case

[graceful flicker]

Hollow Knight 3: Styxeater

[frosty gate]

Masks aren't metaphorical, the Silksong MM reads Hornet's

Masks are just faces, it doesn't have to be a Mask made by Mask Maker

It's basically Palm reading, but for your face

Masks also do change personality, as seen with Silksong MM and kinda with Hollow Knight MM

Drastically too

[karmic tartan]

Or a game focused entirely on maskmakers

[near jasper]

Wait idea

Soul sanctum but with bugs masks instead of souls

[frosty gate]

Idk, I'm honestly kinda convinced that Mask Makers are not interested in Kingdoms

If we do get that, it'd have to be a Crazed Mask Maker who is trying to get rid of all masks

Which makes for an absolutely amazing story

[near jasper]

Mask makers are like lightning rods they just appear in homes and function

[frosty gate]

Basically, that's their job.
Both MM even keep working despite the fall of their respective Kingdom

[foggy fractal]

MM (silksong) did say that he had a contract right?

[near jasper]

Do you think the troupe does pit stops to get masks after some break

[frosty gate]

I believe he did, but not with the Kingdom itself

Or at least, it doesn't seem to be with the Kingdom

Maybe it's a contract that bounds them to the land

[foggy fractal]

who the hell is contracting him 😭

[frosty gate]

That's the scariest fucking part because there could be something bigger there

[near jasper]

Mask pale being

[plain ruin]

He doesn’t mention a contract, just a calling

[edgy nebula]

yeah i meant the concept of masks? in a way? the way mask makers talk about them seem wildly mysterious

[edgy nebula]

This does clear it up though, thanks

[plain ruin]

Maybe some unspoken contract, something inherent to the kind of bug the Mask Makers are

Since they describe it as a task they must do until death

[foggy fractal]

apparently act 3 unmasked he does, at least that's what the wiki says
MM: Enough talk, Old One. My contract remains. I'll work till caverns' collapse.
Hornet: Very well, Maker. If it is within my power to do so, I shall see your lands saved.

[plain ruin]

Oh wait I missed the word completely

Wonder why he changes that line before and during act 3? Since before A3 he instead says “Enough talk, Old One. Mine is a calling that scant allows rest.”

They can be synonymous but calling has a more “innate” connotation

Or divine

[frosty gate]

I don't think there's a reason why honestly, it's the same dialogue of "Fuck off" but with different words

[near jasper]

Hear me out

Both the princes are there in the godhome version of clover dancers

[strong idol]

ok?

[dull agate]

Yo what do you think of @rancid marsh

[rancid marsh]

I have been summoned

[dull agate]

I fumbled I meant to bring up your profile and ping them 😭

[rancid marsh]

lol

[frosty gate]

LMAO

[frosty gate]

I like her a lot but Team Cherry did her dirty

[dull agate]

lol

[frosty gate]

She could've played a bigger role

[strong idol]

i wish she had a second fight

[near jasper]

Phantom 2 in godhome

[whole holly]

i wonder how Godhome will be implemented in Silksong

[near jasper]

Not with godseekers probably

[foggy stratus]

It might just not be canon tbh.

It’s there, but strictly non canon.

[whole holly]

i know, but how will it be implemented

[foggy stratus]

Maybe something with the steel people and melody of the deep?

[whole holly]

wdym, that would be first case of memory/dream not being canon that we heard of, why would TC do that

[foggy stratus]

To make it not super complicated. And so they could do really whatever with it.

[whole holly]

lot of people think so too, but i don't think shamans use Elegy of Deep for red memory, they use more advanced spell, so godhome would be more advanced

[whole holly]

Godseekers and Mothkin are only group with memory/dream manipulation, shamans and weavers accessed it with Elegy of the Deep and Needolin

[blissful harbor]

i mean
for a godhome equivalent i don’t see a good reason why hornet couldn’t just use elegy of the deep on herself and refight bosses like that

no need for godmasters

[foggy stratus]

GodSeekers*

[blissful harbor]

*yroue

[spark valve]

TC has to make it conflict with the first game somehow

[whole holly]

because we can only access existing memories, with Elegy of Deep not manipulate in into one place that lumps every boss fight together

[near jasper]

What if hornet just remembers really fast the parts in between

[foggy stratus]

A TK boss fight is lowkey real then.

[sinful nimbus]

thats kinda boring imo

a lost godhome in the abyss would be cool

shade lord rematcxh 🙏

[spark valve]

Eugh

[whole holly]

ehh, i mean it would be interesting if something was involved

[sinful nimbus]

or first match

[foggy stratus]

Hornet gets turned into Lost Hornet no matter what. It’s like AbsRad for Silksong.

[spark valve]

Advocating for slop 💔

[whole holly]

Lost Memory concept is interesting, hornet also regaining memories as bossfights like Vespa and so on, procedurally

[near jasper]

Summoned saviour 2 before godhome

[foggy stratus]

Really quickly just saying Lemm would have an aneurism if he saw how Scrounge treats their artifacts.

[whole holly]

Steel Masters attempting to commune with lord of shades and using hornet to fight through her memories to somehow make lord of shades appear in memory would be interesting concept in my opinion

Star's ideas are really great and interesting

also i like how Knight's Abyss memory and Hornet's Red memory mirror each other and reveal something fundamental about themselves, Silksong's Godhome could lean into this

[near jasper]

Lemm is like a vaultkeeper, give them an artifact for a chance to know about it

[foggy stratus]

He has a back log, alright? Journals can take a while to decipher.

[edgy nebula]

shade lord rematch where we play as rad

[quick jetty]

Maybe we dive into the twisted bud’s core/being and take on all of pharloom’s potential hosts(bosses)?

Could call it mirror of reflection or something 🤷‍♂️

[glacial warren]

I don’t really think Hornet would fight the Lord Of Shades/Knight, given she stands not a chance in hell at opposing it, much less Void Given Focus.

That thing already handed her her ass twice back when it was a tiny Vessel child, and this was before she got stuck in a Rune Cage and depleted of most of her strength.

[near jasper]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Silksong/s/AqdCaPj1De

This is a what a shade lord fight would be like if you're getting good rng

[frosty gate]

The ominous canonizing VGFocus

[twin dragon]

"child"

[twin dragon]

you advocate against those things

[midnight reef]

I mean

it'd be cool, I dont deny that

I'd think its a cop-out

[sinful nimbus]

You don't speak for me

[midnight reef]

Considering Act 3 gives Hornet a way into memories

[sinful nimbus]

I think I speak for everyone when I say a shade lord boss fight would go hard asf

[midnight reef]

Oh certainly

I'd think it'd be more of a friendly spar than a proper fight though

[twin dragon]

Ehh