sk-lore

[sturdy hedge]

We only learn that it’s weak against void in Silksong

It could also just be a regular white flower-

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong doesn't say its so fragile because TK is void

[whole holly]

what about embrace the void flower ending?

[sinful nimbus]

The flower never comes in contact with the shade

[whole holly]

true

[sinful nimbus]

It survives coming in contact with the shade lord too but that's also strange in light of Silksong

[sturdy hedge]

It’s only briefly exposed to the shade lord, in Silksong it’s in the abyss for a much longer period, and is also directly in contact with the void for longer

[oblique dove]

it may be that the flower from memory is just stronger cuz its from the original source, and zemers are weaker cuz they are from hallownest

[craggy smelt]

I think it's this, somehow

overtime everblooms may just grow more frail when grown in a land

hence Hornet not thinking they would be in Pharloom

(makes me very curious about what kind of realm the 'lands serene' are...)

[frosty gate]

If it even exists nowadays

[craggy smelt]

...I'm sad now

[gentle aspen]

The knight’s shell has no void whatsoever the void is within and wouldn’t weaken the flower at all?

This isn’t a valid point

[graceful grail]

Probably has no Void around

[jade skiff]

Is the everbloom more durable in Silksong because Hornet takes care of it properl under her cloak or ebcause its a memory version of it

[plain gazelle]

the latter

[candid blade]

… how does hornet hold her needle while using scuttlebrace

[candid blade]

Or more accurately where does it go

Its not on her back

Well maybe she has more arms holding it out of view idk

[near jasper]

Mouth

[candid blade]

… wheres the mouth

[near jasper]

Head

[candid blade]

The mask looks yk. Fully sealing whats below it so it cant be

[near jasper]

Even masks that look fully sealing can be taken off and have holes at different angles

[candid blade]

Well the needle wouldnt fit… it is like nearly her length

[near jasper]

Horns

[edgy nebula]

it's one of those things that isnt important and will never be explained

like how she drinks nectar or flea brew

or show she speaks

or breathes

[near jasper]

Thats also how the encrusted heart stays fine, its a humid enviroment

[dire lynx]

mouth can go through mask

[near jasper]

Do you think the troupe has a mask maker That works for them or they're just really rich And getting them from each place they visit

[dire lynx]

they just have a room full of masks

[edgy nebula]

nmh probably makes the masks

theyd have to be really mystical to be able to cloak the wearers in forms dreamed

[near jasper]

But where do they get them from?

[dire lynx]

probably as bobbit said

[near jasper]

Actually I wonder

Do they reuse the masks?

[dire lynx]

the only real bugs in the troupe are brumm, divine and the grimmsteed, so probably yes

oh, and the dead guy who we light the lantern for

[near jasper]

and trobbio

[quartz flicker]

Do we think the flame cult in Wisp Thicket could have been inspired by the Grimm Troupe?

[near jasper]

I dont think so

[quartz flicker]

Maybe the cult learned about them somehow.

[near jasper]

The burning bugs seem like a very well organized group ngl

[quartz flicker]

The Grimm Troupe could have harvested flames from the nearly dead Verdania.

Or even the dying coral empire of Kahn.

[near jasper]

I dont think those were big enough to get the troupes attention

[quartz flicker]

Unless the Troupe was less ambitious in the past.

[dire lynx]

they are seperate, they worship the father

[quartz flicker]

Perhaps the Nightmare Heart grows in strength over time.

[near jasper]

Also the citadel would probably just throw them all in the slab for messing up their colonization of those areas

[graceful grail]

Nah, when you stun Grimm he turns into a bunch of grimchilds, implying thats how many times the ritual has been completed.

Grimm contains all the previous grimms

[quartz flicker]

I meant: Maybe the Troupe sought smaller kingdoms in the past, when it was less powerful and had less experience.

So Verdania was a valid target.

[near jasper]

Wouldnt they have been stronger in the past?

With the nightmare heart not living on their life support fully

[graceful grail]

How do you even start a campaign so Neesh? like, what were the steps to make a cult circus that travels thru dreams to dying kindoms??

Very Specific.

[quartz flicker]

Nightmare King Grimm is strong as shit in HK.

[near jasper]

Yeah he's empowered by a higher being

[dire lynx]

it is the avatar of a god

[graceful grail]

Dreams are always more powerful than reality in HK

[quartz flicker]

What happens to the Troupe if the Knight is wearing their Charm when it awakens the Void Lord in the Godmaster ending?

The new Grimm seems tied to the Charm.

[near jasper]

Grimmchild gets consumed by the void

[quartz flicker]

Anyway, back to skong: You think we'll get Greyroot lore in the DLC?

[near jasper]

Maybe

Therell probably be a plasmium+curse interaction

[dire lynx]

i doubt sea of sorrows will hold anything on greyroot

[near jasper]

Since we'll probably get more cocoons

[quartz flicker]

Greyroot is this weird anamoly we know very little about.

[muted lantern]

what if sea of sorrow is just a thalassophobia horror game

[dire lynx]

2D subnautica

[muted lantern]

hornet just gets put in the iron lung

[graceful grail]

Nah, Roguelike, so there is an excuse to nerf hornets abilitys and you chose what ones you want as you go so he int OP

[near jasper]

What if the real sea of sorrow was the skongs we made along the way

[craggy smelt]

what if it was something else

something funnier

[glacial warren]

What if the submarine is all one giant elaborate ploy for the brilliant performance of Trobbio.

[stray fog]

How would the funny insect game be scary

[craggy smelt]

return to Deepnest

very dark and spiders crawl across your eyeballs every now and then

no, you know what would be a scary zone?

somewhere full of leeches

that might work in Sea of Sorrow, if you go into some deep sea cave

have leeches all over the place

pits of leeches, leeches slithering around in the foreground

vry scry

[glacial warren]

One, simple word: Whiteward.

[stray fog]

True

[stray fog]

What's this?

[stray fog]

That's more disgusting than scary

[glacial warren]

Whiteward is, bar nothing, so far the scariest thing we’ve seen besides Nosk from the first game, though the Unravelled is similarly horrific to consider.

The Unravelled is honestly mostly terrifying in the simple fact that it cannot, in all truth, die. Not in a capacity that would matter, at least.

[frosty beacon]

is ts mf shaded citadel

[craggy smelt]

underwater unravelled

that's what SoS needs to be scary

[cursive sinew]

Bro first time wandering through Whiteward I was genuinely kinda scared

I am not good with these kinds of atmospheres

The funny part is thst TC actually get to jumpscare you with the mob spawns

[whole holly]

true, something like Cephalopod version of leviathan

[stoic harbor]

Wait so why was hornet taken to pharloom again

I forgot

Was it to prolong the seal on gms

[whole holly]

no, for GMS to bind her because she was a weaver

[stoic harbor]

I see

[whole holly]

if hornet can Bind in Hollow Knight, why doesn't she, at least in sentinel fight?

[stoic harbor]

Because she wants to be fair to the knight maybe

Its not a death battle

Well

I guess she does try to kill the knight

But she isn't in danger of dying

Its just a test

If she kept binding the fight wouldn't end until the knight died

Maybe

[whole holly]

true but First Sinner was testing hornet and she binded during fight

[stoic harbor]

Idk

[stoic harbor]

True

[whole holly]

i think it is combination of those reasons and gameplay

[stoic harbor]

But first sinner is also not a real fight, so hornet has no danger of death there

As if you "die" in the fight, you just respawn outside and leave no cocoon

[whole holly]

also why didn't anyone do anything about Soul Master?

[bleak ridge]

She needs silk to bind, she needs soul to gain silk, the knight is soulless

[bleak ridge]

Atleast that's what I think

[whole holly]

is knight soulless though?

[bleak ridge]

She can't really turn soul into silk if the opponent she's fighting is an empty husk

[stoic harbor]

He was shut down then started doing stuff again after the king died so there was nobody to stop him as he's way stronger than the citizens and guards

[bleak ridge]

We don't obtain soul from any of the shades in the abyss so it's logical to assume hornet shouldn't obtain any from us either

[stoic harbor]

And he was trying to find any way to survive the infection

[whole holly]

not really though since Knight is alive with his shell intact, so it makes sense for knight to have soul

[stoic harbor]

True but if the knight was carrying soul she should be able to steal it technically, i get why not because of gameplay

[bleak ridge]

Fair point

[whole holly]

true but Hornet could have defeated him, she is literally Princess Protector of Hallownest

[bleak ridge]

The knight is built like a tiny nuke

Born from two pale higher beings and infused with void

[stoic harbor]

She couldn't get into the city bc the gates were shut (although she did manage to get in to meet us at the statue somehow)

[bleak ridge]

Wait nvm

[stoic harbor]

Funny

[whole holly]

exactly it is weird

[stoic harbor]

Yeah

[bleak ridge]

Your talking about soul master mb🌾

[stoic harbor]

Well by the time soul master was infected and had already killed so many it was too late to do anything about him anyways

[whole holly]

to be honest aside from Shamans, Weavers and Pale Beings nobody can control soul, Soul Master couldn't achieve Pure Focus

[stoic harbor]

He can't do any more harm now

[bleak ridge]

Hornet probably had bigger fish to fry then some fat dude who was obsessed with soul lmao

[whole holly]

yeah, i meant them too

[whole holly]

like the knight?

[stoic harbor]

Ik but the whole point was that nobody could escape the cot because the gates were sealed

[bleak ridge]

Probably

[stoic harbor]

Although hornet is much more capable than regular citizens

[whole holly]

yeah, she probably would have binded him too

[stoic harbor]

I think she was making sure nobody else got in to the kingdom bc its dangerous like how she was guarding it from quirrel

Yeah

Infected too

[whole holly]

it is all the wills of victims that hornet would have absorbed

i don't think that's how it works

[bleak ridge]

Because it's funny

[stoic harbor]

She would have bound the body of soul master and channeled his essence along with the radiances

[bleak ridge]

Honestly half of the stuff related to "why didn't hornet just do ____" are probably just gameplay related reasons

[whole holly]

idk, but i don't think Infection could be transmitted by binding, since it only binds silk and memories

[stoic harbor]

No need to, he wasn't doing anything bad after he got infected and had already killed so many

[whole holly]

it doesn't channel essence, only silk and memories and lived experiences

[stoic harbor]

The radiance effects people through dreams and memories

[whole holly]

memories wouldn't make her infected, especially with her will

[whole holly]

just dreams mostly, memories is bit of stretch

Widow

[stoic harbor]

Not like actual essence, i mean like the essence of his soul so that would include the radiances influence

[whole holly]

besides she is not limited on what she can bind, Eva makes point on that she can bind Crest

[stoic harbor]

Exactly

[whole holly]

i mean infection affects mind, but Soul Master wouldn't be independent in Hornet's mind, he would only be soul and memories

now i kinda want to switch the topic to Snail Shamans

nothing, he wouldn't have control

[bleak ridge]

Problem with them is they're confusing as hell

[whole holly]

true

[stoic harbor]

Yeah but when hornet binds someone she basically copies who they are and how they act so she would essentially copy his infected self

[whole holly]

they are only faction of tribe unrelated to pale beings that can manipulate soul

she binds multiple crest in silksong

[stoic harbor]

Of long dead people

[bleak ridge]

But the thing is they might even be related to pale beings we just have no idea🌾

[stoic harbor]

We know that the infection remains after death

[whole holly]

i don't think way binding works would copy the disease, only lived experiences

[whole holly]

i doubt it, personally

wdym?

[stoic harbor]

His lived experiences of being infected and also he's pretty infused with the infection, you can't just separate it from him

So we are interperating

[bleak ridge]

Are the minds and the soul the same thing

[whole holly]

sure but hornet has strong will that won't let her get infected despite of lived experiences she absorbed, she retains herself despite binding many crest and beings in silksong

[whole holly]

not really

[stoic harbor]

Yeah so we are theorising potentials

[bleak ridge]

The radiance infects the mind but if the mind and soul are related then binding would infect hornet

[stoic harbor]

Exactly but she would basically be willingly taking the infection into her shell, which you can't really avoid with just a strong will at that point

[bleak ridge]

Maybe nobody is right and the infection was the friends we made along the way

[whole holly]

i mean hornet has strong mind and will

[stoic harbor]

Its all a dream

[bleak ridge]

Her body still isn't built to contain the infection, if she willingly took in the infection by binding someone I don't think she would be able to resist that

[whole holly]

Infection is dream-based, hornet's bind is not like focus it only binds soul/silk/lived experiences and memories so you are wrong in thinking that her will and mind can't prevent her from getting infected from those experiences

[whole holly]

like i said, Infection is dream-based, hornet's bind is not like focus it only binds soul/silk/lived experiences which she would be able to resist from getting infected

[stoic harbor]

Yeah but the infection has a physical body, it's not just in the mind. The inside of soul master is FULL of infection, so she would be pulling all of that into her shell too, and i believe having enough exposure to the infection in that way would infect you too in a more traditional way

[whole holly]

Infection having physical body doesn't change anything, physical goop only manifests because veil between waking realm and dream realm are separated by infection, Infection doesn't spread physically and never has be stated to

[stoic harbor]

I see

[whole holly]

only willingly

[bleak ridge]

Slight mistake there

The mantis' who got infected took it in willingly

[whole holly]

not really, that's unsubstantiated

[stoic harbor]

And still have control over their minds right? It was just to become stronger

Or did they lose their minds too

[bleak ridge]

That's hard to say

[stoic harbor]

Yeah

And we can see that a physical infection (plasmium) doesn't affect hornet badly

[bleak ridge]

It does tho

[stoic harbor]

So the radiances infection probably wont do much even if it's physical as well as mental bc she has a strong will

[bleak ridge]

She states that she's barely keeping her sanity when she goes to that one disease fixer

[stoic harbor]

Damn

[bleak ridge]

I forgot the name that one bee dude

[whole holly]

and it is partially mind based, neither plasmium and haunting affect hornet in significant way compared to normal bugs

[whole holly]

Yarnaby? that's a fly

[bleak ridge]

No the dude that removes grey roots parasite

[bleak ridge]

Oh yeah

[stoic harbor]

True

[bleak ridge]

Yeah if you go to yarnaby while plasmium overdosed hornet says that she's barely retaining her mind

[stoic harbor]

Both goated too

[bleak ridge]

They're just regular flies so idk lol

[stoic harbor]

Small fly and bigger fly

[whole holly]

what would happen if Greyroot parasite latched on Vessel

[stoic harbor]

Exactly

[stoic harbor]

It would be killed by the shade i assume

Void is very dangerous

And the greyroot would just be killed by it

[whole holly]

i think something similar

[stoic harbor]

Also nothing for the parasite to latch onto inside the knights shell

[whole holly]

i mean sure but in circumstances where parasite was forcefully latched on Vessel

[stoic harbor]

Yeah it would try and enter and just genuinely get swallowed by the void 😭

Or corrupted or something

[stoic harbor]

It probably wouldn't be because the greyroot person wouldn't consider the knight as a vessel

Hey i got voicechat perms

[whole holly]

his shell is strong and parasite doesn't like void, so parasite would die, would vessel focus parasite as a Crest?

[stoic harbor]

I don't think the knight can get crests

No way to bind the will of another

[whole holly]

true, lived experiences are only imprinted in his shade and don't manifest as crests

[stoic harbor]

Focus is just using gathered soul to heal

[stoic harbor]

Yeah

[whole holly]

Focus also focuses Dreamers and Infection

[stoic harbor]

True

It can draw in stuff, i forgot

[whole holly]

they just don't manifest, unless you count infection seeping through THK

[viscid ridge]

Focus seems to be something that gods can do naturally, while normal bugs need augmentations like masks and gems to be able to do it

[twin dragon]

This has genuinely zero correlation and evidence, and both craftmetal n pale ore aren't the only metals that exist

[viscid ridge]

Those silkflies that flies above Laces corpse in the flower room, where they always there? I feel like they were not there when the game released?

[native sapphire]

Hmm ? Always has been

[twin dragon]

lace's "corpse"?

[native sapphire]

Bro

[viscid ridge]

Are you sure? Cause they're so fuck off big i dont think i would have missed them 😭

[native sapphire]

wait

Show me

[whole holly]

what other metals exist?

[native sapphire]

Always has been

[viscid ridge]

Bronze comes to mind

[whole holly]

i mean ones we interact with? bronze is also color

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but the literal metal is bronze, not just its color

[viscid ridge]

Idk man thats mad sketch

[whole holly]

true but bronze, just like steel is alloy and have to be derived from something

[whole holly]

also can you not be hostile

[viscid ridge]

Its still a metal doesn't matter if its pure or an alloy

And steel shows iron does also exist

[twin dragon]

Mb twin

[viscid ridge]

Gold is also mentioned

[whole holly]

i was talking about pure metals that we can find, Craftmetal seems somewhat volcanic it might be iron or basalt impure ore

Pale Ore is diffucult to pinpoint since it is intended to be mythical and magical ore with connection to pale beings

but Pale Oil does turn regular metal to steel, why can't Pale Ore do the same, also it isn't far fetched to say that weapons are made from Craftmetal, since Pale Ore isn't abundant

[viscid ridge]

Id just assume most weapons are made of steel? Id doubt that normal bugs could even have access to the amount of pale ore that the knight and the king seemed to have,

And you have to remember unlike how the nailsmith completely reforged the nail every time he got more pale ore, the pale oil is only used to sharpen the needle. It doesn't turn into anything, it just sharpens and reveals whats already there

[whole holly]

true, Pale Oil is polisher and Needle is being Sharpened

but what is steel made out of in HK world?

it might not be Pale Ore, since it is rare

but how did Hive get access to Steel, maybe Craftmetal can produce bronze? honestly who knows, we might know more in City of Steel media

[crystal mist]

Actually pale ore remind of silver kinda

[whole holly]

me too, but isn't silver soft-er metal

[viscid ridge]

Iron

[crystal mist]

It's hive steel,is little bit different from pale ore i think

[whole holly]

Iron isn’t only component typically

[viscid ridge]

Yeah theres also carbon, but im talking about iron cause the topic is metals

[crystal mist]

Cause pale ore is pale and hive steel is orange(yellow???)

[viscid ridge]

Hivesteel is probably just a steel alloy mixed with some magic nector or something

[whole holly]

Craftmetal is really similar to Iron, i don't know what else could craftmetal be, maybe impure Iron or aluminum

[whole holly]

true, or their local type of iron i guess

[crystal mist]

Bee liquid👍

[viscid ridge]

Im sure craftmetal is just some fantasy metal like pale steel is. If it was iron it probably would have said so

[crystal mist]

Cause is really happening in real world

[whole holly]

maybe, it would still be fun if another fictional metal was introduced and if we got more clarity on Steel and other Metals

[viscid ridge]

I personally think Hivesteel is just steel that have been treated and molded in a certain way.

[crystal mist]

Maybe is a mixed metal and because of that it's so rare

[viscid ridge]

We already have tons of fantastical minerals in both games tbf

[whole holly]

i thought that too, probably impure metal of some kind, since it isn't really magical

[whole holly]

Pale Ore and Craftmetal? they are just two, btw Pale Steel and Hivesteel don't count

[crystal mist]

Is find near volcanic area and it's make sense maybe is mixed metal (aluminium is absolutely inside that)

[whole holly]

yeah Aluminium is really flexible, maybe iron too since it is volcanic what else could be there

[crystal mist]

Cause shape of aluminium is really similar to craft metal

[viscid ridge]

We got those light crystals, coldshard, flintslate, pale ore, craftmetal, magnetite, voltridian

[whole holly]

magnetite counts, Crystals don't voltridian is also crystal maybe Flintstate does but it might be similar to craftmetal in composition

[crystal mist]

Wite what shell shared are made of????

[whole holly]

probably chitin is it is bugs shell irl but fossilized version idk

[viscid ridge]

Why doesn't the rest count though?

[whole holly]

shell and bone so probably calcium

[whole holly]

Crystals aren't metals, they are both minerals sure, but in this case we are talking about metals

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but i wasn't, i was talking about minerals if you look back

[crystal mist]

Maybe if know that can find what metal is craft metal cause tools are repare with shell shared!!!!

[whole holly]

sure but conversation is about metals

[whole holly]

it might be composed by Calcium, so Craftmetal might also contain calcium but it is probably just gameplay

[crystal mist]

Aluminium and calcium.... Maybe is that all?

[whole holly]

Aluminium, Calcium, iron

[crystal mist]

It's DONE 👍

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but i said minerals, not just metal 😅

[whole holly]

yeah, i know you brought it up, but that's not what we are conversing

[viscid ridge]

Probably just some volcanic rock that melded a ton of metals together

[viscid ridge]

Sure thing...

[crystal mist]

And near volcanic area we can find fossils and aluminium and iron is easi

[whole holly]

that's objectively true...

[viscid ridge]

Its not, but ydy 😅

[crystal mist]

Mixed metal 👍

[whole holly]

i don't think about aluminum

[whole holly]

i literally started this conversation about metals...

[whole holly]

you even say topic is metals right here

[crystal mist]

Can i start a new conversion???

[whole holly]

Magnetite is also likely iron, magnetized one, Pharloom seems to be rich in Iron

[whole holly]

or at least iron-adjacent metals

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but my specific was refrencing minerals, and you proceeded to only list the metals, and said there isnt any other ones so idk 🤷‍♂️

[whole holly]

why did you bring up minerals for no reason

[viscid ridge]

I doubt it, its description calls it a rock

[whole holly]

iron containing rock, yeah

[viscid ridge]

Why couldn't i? 😭

[whole holly]

not relevant to convo

[viscid ridge]

No? Just rock

[crystal mist]

[viscid ridge]

Sure thing...?

[whole holly]

omg, rocks containg metals, metals don't occur in pure form

[whole holly]

objectively true...

[whole holly]

why don't you start new conversation

[crystal mist]

Absolutely true

[viscid ridge]

Ydy

[viscid ridge]

Think it would've mentioned it but ok

[crystal mist]

Cause i waiting this conversation end

[whole holly]

it doesn't have to, rocks contain metals and other compounds, what do you think rocks are composed from

[viscid ridge]

Watch out, if you change the subject nika might say its not allowed 😭

[whole holly]

start it anyway, Jonathan is never gonna stop

[crystal mist]

OK

[viscid ridge]

But the quality is attributed to the rock itself not the the supposed metals inside it

[crystal mist]

Weaver is have male👍

[viscid ridge]

👍

[crystal mist]

Because of widow

[whole holly]

what do you think stone's derive properties from, magnetism is associated with iron, sweetie

[viscid ridge]

Maybe they ate all their males 😅

[whole holly]

we that may be figurative name, but i don't think male Weavers exist

[crystal mist]

For you become a widow you need have a husband and loss it

[whole holly]

true

[viscid ridge]

Not with magnetite honey

[crystal mist]

Widow spider💀

[whole holly]

ydy😭

[crystal mist]

But no

[viscid ridge]

I just wonder what she looks like under the cloak

[whole holly]

Weavers likely had regular spider husbands

[viscid ridge]

What her face or lack thereof looks like

[whole holly]

i mean soft jelly like facial are with eyes, because she lacks exoskeleton and her brain is exposed

[crystal mist]

For a long time a think i flea that turned into a weaver...

[whole holly]

lol, sounds very accurate to how she looks like

[crystal mist]

Only answer is weaver are feminist....

[jagged sun]

I thought she was a clothmite elevated into a weaver

(before knowing)

[viscid ridge]

Nah she had a round beforehand

Id still like to see some more types of weavers

[crystal mist]

First sinner have that thing from time he was a pharleed in head sooooooooo is the only and first thing a think about...

[whole holly]

male weavers literally don't exist, they might be matriarchal

[whole holly]

Herrah might be drapemite weaver

[crystal mist]

I don't think soo....

[jagged sun]

I wish we got more info on the bugs that we get crests from (maybe with elegy if the deep we could get a boss fight and a cool upgrade for that Crest)

[crystal mist]

O don't care about that part really.... But that's make sense actually

[viscid ridge]

Like a lot of the weavers seem to draw from orb weavers designs, so maybe we could see more types of weavers like herrah in the future

[crystal mist]

Imagine bind a crest and then crest turn alive and atk you

[crystal mist]

That's being soo coollllllll

[viscid ridge]

Like fs almost?

[crystal mist]

Maybe

[viscid ridge]

I hope we get a weaver crest in the future

But i wonder what its attacks would look like

[crystal mist]

Remember fighting first sinner?

[crystal mist]

I hope we don't find a god crest

Like GMS

[viscid ridge]

Id like that cut pale king crest to be utilized in the future personally

[crystal mist]

It's more than like hornt hunter crest

[whole holly]

that's just Hunter Crest, though, what would His Crest even be

[viscid ridge]

Yeah i know its the old hunter crest but i think it looks cool enough to be its own crest

[crystal mist]

The dlc gonna have a savage beastfly boss fight again....

[viscid ridge]

Yeah i know nika

[whole holly]

sure but where would be obtain it

[viscid ridge]

Who knows

[whole holly]

great answer

[crystal mist]

And of course team cherry gonna make her plusimium version

[crystal mist]

Another hunter???

[crystal mist]

Only answer i can find

[viscid ridge]

You want me to pull an awnser out of my ass?

[whole holly]

why would another hunter have crest of pale king, if anything it fits monarch crest thematically

[viscid ridge]

Definitely

[whole holly]

yeah, lore channel includes speculation, you could have said memory or something like that

[crystal mist]

New Idea: a hunter can obtain crest....

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but i don't know, so id rather not speculate

[crystal mist]

For that thing ee need to gather powerful things again

[whole holly]

why not? you want something but have no idea how it can be executed

[crystal mist]

And this time we gonna go through pantheon

[viscid ridge]

You really like to argue about pointless things 😑

[crystal mist]

Like my sister

God of light and dream: radiance
God of nightmare and flames:grimm
God of dark and destroy:void

We need god of war
And god of blood

And it's completel

God of sleep unn

[whole holly]

I am just trying to tell you that it might not be feasible

[crystal mist]

Random is appear in my mind

[muted ember]

question? since hornet is a weaver and she can make silk and crawl like one how come she doesn't use more spider powers it would be really cool if hornet could hold needle in one spider leg and do like silk soar or climbing upsidedown

[whole holly]

wdym, Scuttlebrace let's hornet crawl

[muted ember]

im asking why doesn't she show any more weaver skills

[whole holly]

which weaver skills?

[muted ember]

shes a spider she should be able to do some spider things

maybe is sea of sorrow

[whole holly]

like what? she uses silk

[viscid ridge]

Probably just dont know how to to it, she seems to be a major fan of learning abilities from others. Maybe in the future she can

[muted ember]

I was just thinking ik team cherry wont add too many spider things but it would be cool to have more use of silk like a silk lasso or a bridge

[viscid ridge]

A lot of the skills she only learns after binding a weaver, so that specific ability is probably some weaver skill she hasn't learned yet

[viscid ridge]

Silk bridge honestly sounds cool

Like spiderman

[muted ember]

ikr

we also see she has many legs or arms like when used for scuttlebrace what if she used her arms more to fight like dual wield

[viscid ridge]

Hopefully well get some sort of silk skill that lets hornet create a bubble to breathe underwater

[muted ember]

or to grab items in the background to throw

not to say that we sould ignore ||pale|| abilities

I just think it would be cool to see both weaver and ||pale|| powers

[viscid ridge]

Id not want hornet to get the ability to use soul as an skill, but i lowkey want to find out if she can use it or not

[muted ember]

ye

agreed

[twin dragon]

she moves with her 4 limbs when using scuttlebrace

Doesnt have any more past that

[muted ember]

I thought it would be cool if she could use 4 limbs for things like combat imagine how cool it could be hornet duel wielding

[copper patio]

God of blood is the knight prolly

He has did mass murder to peaceful creatures

Aka the ones that go back and forth

[whole holly]

god of blood is lifeblood creature

[viscid ridge]

Nuh uh the god of blood is obviously Zagreus

[dusty wagon]

why was hornet so downgraded in silksong, istg i remember she had like 50 masks in hollow knight and she had clawline, faydown cloak, thread storm, cross stitch, max needle and silkspear

[viscid ridge]

She forgor

[dusty wagon]

understandable

[viscid ridge]

Glad to be of service bingus bongus

[sinful nimbus]

She was weakened by the magic cage she was brought to Pharloom in

Although she didn't have faydown cloak cross stitch or max needle in the first place

[dusty wagon]

she did

the parry

in sentinel

and

[sinful nimbus]

That works differently

[dusty wagon]

she damaged the knight

and

she jumped higher than the knight

[viscid ridge]

The parry isn't the same. The one in hk is a normal blade parry, while cross stitch covers the needle in silk

[dusty wagon]

and in silksong

faydown cloak is around the same height

[viscid ridge]

And she didn't have double jump in hk

[sinful nimbus]

She's like visibly not using faydown cloak

[dusty wagon]

so how did she jump so high

[sinful nimbus]

Why would she have fayforn fur

[dusty wagon]

yeah

[near jasper]

She fell like 4 of the tallest rooms in the game while unconscious, her ankles are fucked

[frosty gate]

She's just taller than the knight

She's probably jumping about the same height

[copper patio]

Then what about war?

[whole holly]

who knows, we never even seen war in HK Universe

[copper patio]

Pale king against void so the pale king is

That's the best I can think off

[copper patio]

The war of pale king and the void

Void taken already so pale king is the god of war

Bets idea of it

[tacit steeple]

Who will win. The void god capable of destroying worlds or a cute white flower?

[copper patio]

If your talking about the one that a grey mourner gave them void I don't know much lore about the flower just that it's rare

[craggy smelt]

"The answer may surprise you."

[near jasper]

Khann

Yk theres probably a lot of stuff we overcomplicated about the lore in hk

[lone folio]

The power of friendship

[craggy smelt]

oh my goodness yes

[cinder remnant]

I understand the game choices for the abilities, but some abilities could have been portrayed as skills regained

Rather than newly learned

[cinder remnant]

I'd say the pale king is the god of science, he has transforming powers to some extent and he was trying to create new beings

Using mechanics and stuff

[vast nebula]

I've returned to p5 for HK's anniversary, and noticed this dream dialogue when in the white lady room:

"Pale mother... We barely dare to think. The chance of meeting is too rare... but thine resonance! Could you be one of Them?"

I haven't seen anyone discuss who They might be before, I feel like it could be some reasoning behind the white lady's connection to the pale flower maybe?

Or am I maybe reading into it too much and they just mean pale being?

[craggy smelt]

I was wondering this for a while, I figure with what we learn in SS it probably refers to pale beings

they seem very powerful but still exceptionally rare, compared to other creatures

[vast nebula]

I suppose both are kinda true as pale beings and the pale flower must have some connection, except of course there's the distinction of the flower being able to resist the void and the 3 pale beings we've encountered not being able to

[craggy smelt]

though I am curious as to why Godseeker doesn't have anything further to say about 'Them/pale beings' regarding PK, but maybe if he'd been erased completely she either couldn't tell or just didn't bring it up

Godseeker doesn't seem to find the delicate flower as remarkable

[vast nebula]

I haven't got that far yet, but I hope I'll get that far this attempt

[craggy smelt]

good luck
you can also bring Godseeker a delicate flower and get more dialogue, fyi

[left dune]

that's because godseeker is a little slow

[vast nebula]

I only beat p4 the day before silksong and did like 2 attempts on p5 so I'm pretty new to it. I've been coming back every HK anniversary to do one of the harder things I hadn't managed before, it will be kinda sad once I've done everything

[craggy smelt]

she isn't called 'Flowerseeker'

[left dune]

True but you'd think he'd be smarted if he can attune with literal gods

[vast nebula]

I'm thinking that "Could you be one of Them?" is indicating that in godseekers previous travels they'd never encountered a pale being before

Do we know if godseeker went anywhere else before hallownest actually (other than their home of land of storms)

[left dune]

possibly but also maybe godseeker only encountered a few

[craggy smelt]

they mention that is has no 'tune', or if it does they can't perceive it
its power may be too subtle or different for them to recognize

[craggy smelt]

actually, there's strong evidence that she might have been to Pharloom briefly - the cave on the Surface matches the cave in Godseeker's Tuner Memory

(well, I don't know about strong... but it's something)

[left dune]

I mean Hornet knows about it's power and so does grey mourner who you get it from and idk if they have some special sensing power to know that its powerful but it doesnt feel like they would

[craggy smelt]

Hornet knows about every damn thing
but she never tells us that much
it's frustrating

[left dune]

lol yea white lady knows about its power too but that makes sense tbh

[vast nebula]

I feel like it's been implied that the surface looks similar everywhere, and since their gods abandoned them, the land of storms has been slowly returning to its surface-like state (similar to how we see blasted steps and sands of karak)

[left dune]

yes pretty true

but also not necessarily the surface but more the wastes outside of kingdoms

[craggy smelt]

it might just be an easter egg or a coincidence, but the Surface cave and Godtuner Memory cave are like almsot identical, even down to similar background elements and placement of rocks and stuff
many TC just re-used assets, but it's definitely sparked some ideas

[left dune]

yea but that would imply that the surface IS the land of storms though wouldn't it which doesn't make sense

[craggy smelt]

the Godtuner Memory isn't the Land of Storms, its a memory of Godseeker trying to cross the wastes after leaving the LoS

[vast nebula]

Howling winds/kings pass look similar to the surface too. I think the idea is that in that world everything is sandwiched by void and wastes depending if you go up or down enough

[left dune]

well yea but I mean why would the surface look so much more like a wasteland than it doesn in Silksong

[vast nebula]

I swear there's lightning in the background

[left dune]

in any direction really if its not in a kingdom it looks like that mostly

[vast nebula]

Anyway, time to go die to GPZ or something

[left dune]

GPZ is my favorite boss

[craggy smelt]

there's lightning in Land of Storms, Godtuner Memory is just your basic windy wasteland
no different than howling cliffs or pharloom's surface

[vast nebula]

Yeah GPZ is great, I love how different they feel compared to every other boss. Plus the random flailing/flopping being OP

[left dune]

the memory looks just like howling cliffs tbh

[craggy smelt]

this video has a good bit on it, in just the first minute or so
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag3dOpVbe-s

[left dune]

I only trust our lord and saviour mossbag everyone else is a false prophet

[craggy smelt]

no! there is another!

[left dune]

Anyway not like it matters because I don't think the godseeker went to pharloom even if they passed by above it

[craggy smelt]

yeah, I agree with that

so I don't know where they would have learned about pale beings, but I don't think they personally met any, or they likely would have parked themselves right there next to it and got to tuning

[left dune]

I mean who knows maybe the god of storms was a pale being we dont really know anything about it

[vast nebula]

Got to the pale king lore 🙂 Godseeker describes him as a big G God which I've always felt is synonymous with pale being in this world

[left dune]

yea I mean usually but Radiance isn't a pale being tbf

[craggy smelt]

well...

but also, they capitalize God every time they use it, so that's not much of an indication

Unn is the 'Sleeping God'

[left dune]

also the strongest being of all the Shade Lord isn't a pale being xdddd (the opposite actually)

[craggy smelt]

certainly they use it for higher beings

[vast nebula]

I feel like radiance is super strong but nowhere near the levels of pale beings. Radiance just had the OP move of being literally untouchable. Its like whenever superman fights anyone with psychic powers

Just a really bad matchup

[left dune]

well no im pretty sure Radiance HAD a physical body BEFORE being sealed.

[craggy smelt]

I think Radiance is a pale being (I know she's never explicitly called one, but there's a case to be made I feel)
and if she isn't, she flat out annihilated a kingdom with two of them working together

[vast nebula]

The radiance always lived inside the minds of bugs I believe. Even from pre wyrm days when the moths worshipped her

[craggy smelt]

she's definitely stronger than PK, PK can enter the dream realm
if he could have just gone in there and killed her, he probably would have

[left dune]

hmm im not sure i dont remember rn

[vast nebula]

I think thats a large part of why moths are so connected with the dream realm

[craggy smelt]

I'm no longer 100% convinced she was always a dream entity, but it's possible she always was
such things do exist - Nightmare Heart for ex.

[vast nebula]

Anyway time to hopefully not die to PV so I can start some Abs Rad practice (I have no delusions about beating her first try)

[craggy smelt]

stay strong

get that hall of gods unlock

[limpid summit]

She might be stronger than PK she might not have been

Even if he was stronger if there was even like a 30% chance that he dies he wouldn’t have fought her

They may have fought though

[vast nebula]

I beat PV first try in p4 after practicing cause I kept going until I beat ascended a few times, its been a while though

Aand I got destroyed

I'm wishing I practiced them beforehand, oh well

[true skiff]

I need help guys

im about to piss myself if a stand up

srslyy what do i do

[near jasper]

Go to #sk-help 👍

[copper patio]

No it prolly would be joni since the god of blood are those slide blood creatures and joni and them are different

What's the white lady then? Peace?

[copper patio]

Your cookee

[true skiff]

wrong channel i thought ts was sk help

[cinder remnant]

Is Joni a higher being? I don't think there's been anything to indicate that

[gloomy gust]

im pretty sure PK had precognition powers so if there was even a 0.01% chance of PK beating the radiance by himself, he would have done it

since he didn't, the radiance is probably way way stronger

[turbid dirge]

Purper

[muted lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/young-sheldon-fact-check-true-arrow-up-low-quality-gif-9150784016056164973

[copper patio]

We were not talking about higher beings

[crystal mist]

Hello

[lone folio]

There isn't a single thing to indicate that

[lone folio]

Then how could she be any kind of god?

Alchemist zylotol seems like a better fit if anything since he is atleast confirmed to be a scientist

[copper patio]

She's a demi-god If I remember

[lone folio]

No idea where you get that from

She's just a ground beetle

[copper patio]

Well my memory is a bad I can agree

Not fully trusting Google just as an example

[lone folio]

Example for what?

[copper patio]

For how I got that hornet is a demigod

[vast nebula]

Hornet is definitely a demigod, they were discussing Joni

[whole holly]

i kind wish we got to see descendants to ancient civilization

[whole holly]

but Knight is somewhat spiritual successor to Ancient Civilization, in sense that both Knight and AC share proximity to void

[midnight reef]

She is, basically?

[blissful harbor]

time for my crackpot theory about shamans

[midnight reef]

shes the daughter of the Pale King (a being thats probably as close as you get to a "god" In Hollow Knight lore), and a Waever

Weaver*

[whole holly]

alright, let's see it

[copper patio]

The closest to a god is the raidance aka the sun god

[whole holly]

what about Void Given Focus?

[copper patio]

It's a void

Abyss kinda

[tawdry flare]

That’s literally the God of Gods

[whole holly]

exactly

[near plaza]

Technically all the bosses are gods

Pantheon

[near jasper]

I have a slightly crackpot theory

[whole holly]

ok, share it with us

[near jasper]

The (natural) abyss enemies are the ancient bugs mutated by void

[craggy smelt]

you mean like the crawlers?

[near jasper]

And glooms

[craggy smelt]

yeah, I could see that

it'd be pretty funny

[whole holly]

oh, seems interesting

[craggy smelt]

their tablets called for the Void to 'erase our fear, eliminate our desire' and it eventually caused them to degenerate into near-mindless instinctive beasts

[whole holly]

instead of higher beings evolving and ascending bugs, void somewhat devolves them, pretty funny

[near jasper]

Thats also what happened to the kingsoul

[whole holly]

sure, it would also explain the vessel physiology of not being capable of growth under normal circumstances but they are still outlier because they are children of two pale beings

[whole holly]

?

[near jasper]

The void heart is the kingsoul after the void 1. Consumed the soul it makes and 2. Devolved it

[whole holly]

i mean i wouldn't call unifying the void devolving from infinite soul, they are equal in my eyes

[near jasper]

I think thats more of a side effect of the charm than its actual effect, you fed the void so now itll be less evil to you

[whole holly]

plus way Jiji, Bardoon and Jinn comment about it doesn't suggest devolution, Bardoon even says "it evolves beyond that wyrm"

[whole holly]

that's interesting to be honest, it is also about Knight coming to terms with his regrets that leads to uniting the void, Kingsoul is recognized as Catalyst but i still don't see how that's devolving

[near jasper]

Valid

Another thing is how hornet describes the void threads on lost garmonds entry

"Their physical might is nothing compared to the corruption they wreak upon a soul."

[whole holly]

yeah they somewhat consume mind will and soul

[near jasper]

Void destroys the soul but it also has physical effects

[whole holly]

i wonder if we will battle Lord of Shades in Boss Rush DLC in Silksong

[graceful grail]

So… After Act III ending is lace gonna need constant silk from hornet to live?

Since she can’t get any from GMS now

[graceful grail]

You’re saying, instead of saving lace, you just somehow destroy all void

[edgy nebula]

yes

[whole holly]

Hornet has plenty of silk generation capabilities at the end of story, i mean 3 silk hearts, sylphsong, weavelight

[whole holly]

i am not sure, but depends on the execution

[edgy nebula]

she doesnt even need those, cause of her abilities she got from pk she can make infinite silk by killing bugs

[graceful grail]

Lace “Hornet, Silk me plz”

[whole holly]

do we know that PK is one who passed down those abilities to knight and hornet, where is it stated?

[near jasper]

I mean its probably a pale being thing

[edgy nebula]

it had to be cause she certainly didnt get it from weavers

their silk wanes over time with enough use

[graceful grail]

Normal spiders eat their own silk IRL to get more.

If there web breaks they eat it

[edgy nebula]

silksong isnt real life

[whole holly]

maybe it is universal thing, how do we know that it is Pale Being-specific ability?

[graceful grail]

I know, but it seems the Weavers have limited silk

[graceful grail]

Pale beings are always linked to soul

[near jasper]

Having to drain the whiteward corpses With a machine instead of just hitting the bugs

[whole holly]

i mean "hitting to gain soul" ability

[whole holly]

that could be for different reasons, such as being more ethical, sustainable and efficient

[graceful grail]

Hey, does that mean that grimchild is a pale being?

[near jasper]

Brother its whiteward no its not ethical

[whole holly]

???

[whole holly]

more ethical than infinitely hitting bugs

[graceful grail]

The knight is grimchild’s mommy technically.

[near jasper]

They sentenced like 4000 patients to eternal halflife stuck in lamps

[whole holly]

okay then still besides ethical, there are other reasons they could have done that, which i already stated

[near jasper]

True

[whole holly]

Knight is tasked to guide Grimmchild to Nightmare Essence

i really don't think it is pale being specific ability

[graceful grail]

I think you were thinking of economical, not ethical

[whole holly]

yeah, plus it is time-consuming

[near jasper]

ig that kinda explains why every soul vessel in hallownest was shattered

To prevent the normal bugs from messing with soul

[whole holly]

It was intended for AC bugs most likely

[near jasper]

What

[whole holly]

They built soul totems which they took soul from, Shamans also extract soul from live pilgrims

[whole holly]

Ancient Civilization Bugs

[near jasper]

A

[lone folio]

I mean if you get adopted by parents from another country you won't magically get their genes by just being raised by them

[near jasper]

Gms would be really mad at you for saying this

[lone folio]

Don't the soul sanctum bugs inject alot of soul into themselves so they can cast spells?

[near jasper]

Yes

And groal

[lone folio]

Groal just drinks the stuff

I mean

The soul sanctum bugs could also be drinking soul

[near jasper]

Wdym

[lone folio]

Like the snail shaman corpse with the bowl of soul below him?

atleast that's what I remember

[near jasper]

Those are like the only vials in bilewater tho?

And the hanging corpses near bilehaven implies that more would harvested

If not they wouldnt ne preserving them in Bags

[limpid summit]

Groal probably chewed on the shaman and spit him out

[craggy smelt]

that's on brand for groal

[graceful grail]

It might be diffrent with the troupe, otherwise whats the point of the quote “Pationate Dance”

also, fully upgraded grimchilds cloak IS NOT BLACK, it seems he Inherited the Blue Hue from TK

[graceful grail]

All the bugs hung in cocoons in Bilewater definitely were “Hung to Dry” in the snail way

[silver lintel]

Anyone else find the consistency of the void liquid weird? Previouly I'd assumed void was a slick fully black liquid, kind of like oil, but when Hornet descends into it, it just kind of looks like murky water with black tendril eels swimming around in it

[limpid summit]

Yeah it’s strange

It’s probably just fully pacified void since the everbloom is right there

But it was still weird seeing the tendrils like eels that happened to live in the void instead of just the void

[jagged sun]

I'm pretty sure that the void is recoiling in front of the everbloom

[cinder remnant]

The void is chaos personified right? And right now it's not given form so it's like infinite wills at once

They do whatever until they are focused

That's why the spike tendrils flail around so much

[craggy smelt]

pretty much, yeah

like a big cold soup of disparate will

'power, without unity'

[green dock]

Does anybody know what the cocoons at the bottom of gms boss room are? Are they weaver-spawn that got absorbed by gms?

Is there any lore video or wiki making reference to them? I cant find any.

[craggy smelt]

cocoons?

[whole holly]

i had same question

[craggy smelt]

like the cages?

[green dock]

Nono the Cradle Cages are outside the bossroom

[craggy smelt]

you mean stuff like this?

[whole holly]

yeah they are weaver-spawn's

[craggy smelt]

the cages contained weavers

the webs are all over furniture and rocks and things, but they could be corpses too maybe

[warm edge]

I assumed that was just furniture and stuff that got covered in silk, like the spokes are in the process of.

[craggy smelt]

there's a big one there, I wonder what that is...

[green dock]

Yes

[green dock]

Ah i see

[near jasper]

Submarine

[warm edge]

Zote the Mighty

[whole holly]

i mean it could be residual silk covering objects

[craggy smelt]

it's hard to tell what they are, but yeah, they could be corpses of weavers drained and discarded

though when Hornet binds something it doesn't always leave a corpse, but that's her

[green dock]

True but since there are pole looking spools beside them i thought they were just corpses since spiders leave similar looking things after they eat prey.

[green dock]

Yeah you’re right

[whole holly]

guys do we still not know who King of Deepnest was?

[craggy smelt]

I do but I'm never telling you!

(but no really, we don't)

[whole holly]

you probably think it is Shrine Beast

[craggy smelt]

I don't even know who or what that is

[spare citrus]

deepnest had a king?

i thought it was just herrah

[whole holly]

yeah

[craggy smelt]

herrah was married to him

I think

[spare citrus]

where does it say that

[craggy smelt]

dunno how that worked

but he died

[whole holly]

Fungal Wastes Lore Tablet: "This border bounds the twisting, scratching things. Their dead sire, once of honoured caste. Their sealed mother, but the common beast."

[near jasper]

Deepnest had a king?

[craggy smelt]

yes, it was in all the papers

[near jasper]

Just checked and theres never a mention of a king outside the pale king in the deepnest page

[craggy smelt]

Nika posted the lore tablet that mentions him

[whole holly]

hope hornet finds out about him in hidden dreams-style dlc

[craggy smelt]

we call him a king, I actually don't know if that was his actual title

'sire' can also mean father

but there was some guy in charge down there, is the point

[whole holly]

true, Sire of Spider Tribe

[craggy smelt]

its a double-edged sword
because if every question is answered, the magic and mystery of the world would be lost
but every unanswered question is like a dagger of ice in my brain

[whole holly]

to be honest it doesn't have lot of magic and mystery, but there is no clues in Cut Content

[craggy smelt]

every question is a thread in the tapestry...

[whole holly]

i wish that we got to see other half-weavers in the game and what they looked like

[near jasper]

Hornet?

[whole holly]

other than her obvi

i mean half-weaver half-bug

Ari's sketched may suggest what it sire of deepnest could have been:

[crisp gust]

Fatass dirtcarver

[whole holly]

lol

[onyx pawn]

Is that Cindril wasteland exit on the first page?

[whole holly]

i don't know

[craggy smelt]

I love those great big fats on the right

[onyx pawn]

Yeah, nobody does. Just noticed similarity

[craggy smelt]

I hope TC puts them back in the game

[whole holly]

Sea of Sorrows should have unique and powerful NPC akin to weaver or snail shaman in my opinion, so that hornet learns new skill

[quartz flicker]

I still really like the idea that the Grimm Troupe harvested flames from Verdania right after it died.

[keen vector]

flames where

its a taken over be nature wdym

[quartz flicker]

Same place as the flames that were harvested in Hallownest.

They seem to kinda just show up after a Kingdom's death.

This is what Brumm said about the Flame in Dream:

The red flame I've gathered from this dead Kingdom. You would claim it... for our Master. For his final act.
The Ritual plays itself out once more. We are like the notes in an old, old song. You and me. Mrmm.
Endless, repeating songs of sacrifice, of servitude. For the Ritual. For the troupe. For the Master.
Even this child was born into invisible chains. Mrmm.
So we serve... Thus it has ever been. Yes?

[whole holly]

it's technically possible

[wet walrus]

I love how this meme is somewhat accurate since he is a pale being mate to anither pale being both having unlimited soul hence able to breed as much as he wishes.

[whole holly]

GMS sadly couldn't biologically reproduce via mating

[whole holly]

everything could have been prevented

[wet walrus]

She could.

[whole holly]

?

[wet walrus]

She can use silk to create her own people and even create a whole new ecology for them

Unn did this. He used essence and imagined his followers and their paradise

[whole holly]

Lace and Phantom need silk to be maintained and aren't feasible, reproduction via mating is impossible for her

[near jasper]

I mean thats only kinda for her

Unn's creatures are just real species

[whole holly]

Essence and Silk aren't same, Silk Spun creatures need lot of silk to be maintained

[lone folio]

Via mating yes but that's still reproduction

[wet walrus]

Lace and Phantom are very real

Just look at them beautiful pixels on my screen

[whole holly]

sure, but i meant traditional reproduction

[wet walrus]

True

That was a similar case with rad. They would bask in her ligt and in return would honour and rever her.

But like weavers moths turned against their creator

[whole holly]

Pale King and White Lady reproduced via mating

[whole holly]

i mean yeah clearly, Moths were generally peaceful tribe unlike Weavers though

[wet walrus]

I suppose every time gms creates a daughter it has to turn against her?

[whole holly]

that's because GMS was selfish, but we don't know if Radiance mistreated Moths, Mosskin were created to depend solely on Unn's dream and her calling, idk how it works, they are unn dependent

[near jasper]

Shes just kind of an asshole to them

[whole holly]

Weavers are too, as well as Lace, and maybe Phantom

[near jasper]

Didnt say otherwise

[wet walrus]

What does she even do?

[whole holly]

i know, i just added to statement

[wet walrus]

All they were asked to do was songs

[whole holly]

most likely force to needolin to sustain her, it is possible their silk made them dependent on GMS since she controls silk and so on

[wet walrus]

So it is a fight for freedom that escalated after te weavers fumbled afterwards

[whole holly]

true

[high oasis]

chat is dead rn?

oh hell nah

chaaaaaat

[cinder remnant]

The silk children also don't really age

So they can't grow into beings as powerful as GMS

[whole holly]

Phantom does age

[whole holly]

true, Lace was made to be eternal child, Only Hornet can grow as powerful as GMS by binding her

[cinder remnant]

Phantoms silk ages and frays, but doesn't laces journal entry say that it's the soul of a child forever bound

So they don't mentally age

[whole holly]

still, Phantom physically ages, Eva is made of Silk Runes and she is sustained by her Iron Shell, it seems that Aging varies by Silk Spun Beings

[craggy smelt]

they physically deteriorate over time, but they don't appear to mature, let alone turn into something like GMS (a big spidery god-lady)

[near jasper]

Why is the first sinner cage, eva shell and weaver burial spires all have the same type of kind of spine like architecture on the inside

[limpid summit]

There’s no grand father unfortunately

Grand is more of a title though she technically is Hornet’s grandmother

[limpid summit]

Weavers made them all

[muted lantern]

we know lace cant grow up but we don't know much about phantoms situation. They definitely have a much more mature sounding voice, and as the failed prototype they could have been thrown out because they aged.

[limpid summit]

Guess so

[kindred ingot]

Cuz they were all built by Weavers

[midnight reef]

Doesnt really make sense though

GMS cant have children, its why she made the Weavers from the Pharlids, and eventually why she spun Lace and Phantom directly from her silk

[near jasper]

I dont recall any other weaver place with that architecture

[midnight reef]

Plus that'd have two pale beings with one domain, which just doesnt seem to happen?

[near jasper]

I mean

White lady and pk

[midnight reef]

White Lady is some god of fertility, and I dont really have a box to put the Pale King in that works ;3

[midnight reef]

The First Sinners Cage seems to be more Citidel in architecture externally

Internally its clearly of Weaver make

[muted lantern]

Probably gilded by the conductors who like to color everything to their aesthetic... Like that one trend where everything was beige.

[midnight reef]

If I had to guess, the Weavers imprisoned her, and later the Citidel built around it later

[muted lantern]

Likely

People say she was imprisoned by gms but that wouldn't make sense, why wouldn't GMS just bind her

Like every other weaver

[near jasper]

Why the burial spire architecture inside

[muted lantern]

Weaver architecture

[midnight reef]

...because the Weavers imprisioned her first

[muted lantern]

Weavers built their tombs preemptively probably

Or built by others as they died off one by onw

[midnight reef]

Yeah

As I said, she likely got imprisioned there in the slab quite early on

After the Weavers rebelled and fled Pharloom, she was eventually forgotten, but the Citadel Bugs kept up the locks on the cage, gilded it, whatever, before they eventually forgot about her

[near jasper]

Ik but why build it like a burial spire if you want no one to ever enter it

[midnight reef]

Just how they do it, I guess

[near jasper]

Why Eva's shell too if thats just meant to be where you create her

[midnight reef]

Could've just been something they had built to create Eva, but that Eva then couldn't leave as she aged

Eva was an experiment into creating a higher being that could rival GMS

I assume keeping her about, despite being the "reviled child" was useful

[limpid summit]

Eva was the Weavers attempting to mimic GMS as part of the “tools and tricks” that would fre them from her

[midnight reef]

heh

a stupid theory time- Herrah was involved with the creation of Eva

directly, I mean

[near jasper]

Eva wasnt ever able to leave I think

[midnight reef]

yes

[midnight reef]

I was going to say because she knew that having a child with the Pale King would have a good chance of working to create a higher being that could rival GMS

but thats not what Herrah wanted for Hornet

[near jasper]

I wonder if eva is in pain while in the shell

[limpid summit]

Ehhh

Maybe?

There’s some obfuscation with the timeline

But it seems like Herrah and the other Hallownest weavers left before Atla started doing anything

[near jasper]

I think the weavers leaving pharloom was the last part of the rebellion

[limpid summit]

Who knows

But Cindril’s tablet has the Weavers escaping her gaze by fleeing and Atla’s tablet has the Weavers talking about escaping her gaze by going under

[near jasper]

In my mind, after everything else failed they left the citadel to keep her sleeping, left the mummies for a weaver descendant to bind, then ran off

[spark valve]

Weavenests are pre citadel

[near jasper]

Can always be repurposed after putting grs to sleep

[spark valve]

But they weren’t since cindril still talks about gms’s silken sight and the only post citadel rune harp isn’t in one

[pale narwhal]

you mean the silken sight that shes using to literally still find more weavers while she's sleeping to this very day

[sinful nimbus]

While she was waking up

Through the haunting

Neither of which applied to the weavers' reign

Last words of the Weavers.

"Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence.
We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."
The ones that ruled the Citadel died in Pharloom

[limpid summit]

Our Hallownest Weavers being some of the architects of the Citadel doesn’t even make sense if you think about it for ten seconds

Why does Hornet not mention the Weavers talking about the Citadel

And Herrah would be genuinely unsympathetic

[spark valve]

Also the notion of them going out to sire hornet to bring her back to kill GMS is totally incoherent because they you know didn’t bring her back

[limpid summit]

Well who knows

Maybe they would have done that anyway

Freed their sisters once and for all

We can’t know because the Infection cut short any actual plans they had

[craggy smelt]

siring a savior was very probably the plan of the diaspora - the ones who stayed behind were waiting for one of silken strength to come to them while they were all waiting and dying
Herrah might have changed her tune once Hornet was born, but she was likely on board with the savior plan herself at first
otherwise there's no real reason for Herrah to have pushed for a child of pale lineage, or been willing to pay such a high price for one

as for the other Weavers leaving without her, if they felt that someone was going to come looking for them (Vespa suggests that was at least a concern) they might have left of their own accord to keep anyone from finding their savior too soon

[edgy nebula]

im just now realizing sula is probably a reference to the weavers

creating a savior to become free from a higher power

[craggy smelt]

also huge head

[edgy nebula]

true

[limpid summit]

Wanting a child in general considering how hard it is for weavers to have kids would be reason enough I think

But I don’t disagree that it might have been in their heads

[craggy smelt]

if it wasn't part of their plan to begin with, it's an opportunity they seem to have leapt on, going by the Red Memory dialogue where Herrah mocks them

...Greater, grander... Weaver, guardian, queen... Those are their desires... not your own. Certainly not mine...

[limpid summit]

She doesn’t say savior

Could easily mean Hornet ruling Deepnest and protecting the Weavers from local threats like Rad

To start anew to sustain

I honestly think this might explain Hornet not knowing anything about GMS beforehand

They just wanted to forget get as far away as possible and never deal with her again

But if the alternative is true I do have a dumb headcanon

[craggy smelt]

maybe
Hornet earns the title Weaver Queen by binding GMS
imaging her as their god-queen, the prospect must have occured to them

[limpid summit]

I haven’t size matched the Weaver’s Den SoB but it looks to be about GMS’s size

In the back of my mind I think the Weavers would have returned to Pharloom anyway to seal GMS with PK seal knowledge

[craggy smelt]

didn't work

[limpid summit]

True

But that could have just been the outlook of the Pharloom Weavers metawise (which we know they had)

The game doesn’t really care about the Weavers that returned

[craggy smelt]

'the Weavers died on the way back to their home kingdom'

[edgy nebula]

the double damage enemies were too much for them

[limpid summit]

“Cindril’s dead!”

[edgy nebula]

i think itd be really cool if at the edge of the steps there were just alot of weaver corpses

[limpid summit]

“I wonder if our mother is still around.”

https://tenor.com/view/silksong-last-judge-death-gif-10261273771146646774

[edgy nebula]

like with droning music itd be revealed the judges just killed the weakened weavers

maybe with an effigy itd be a cool payoff

[limpid summit]

I genuinely think they must have died in blasted steps

Though it’s insane that there’s nothing there

[craggy smelt]

incidentally, speaking of Weaver's Den
it might count as this already, but
I am hoping we find a 'Weavenest Herrah' in Pharloom somewhere, someday

that'd be neat

[limpid summit]

Have I told you that I think Weaver’s Den is that

[craggy smelt]

yeah, that's what I meant

[limpid summit]

They just didn’t think about it

[craggy smelt]

too early

[limpid summit]

Yak is there a non retcon reason why you think the dead Weavers in the den werent entombed

Like I would think it’s a process they did themselves

But then FS is entombed

[craggy smelt]

they probably died suddenly to the Infection (or the Infected)

[limpid summit]

Do they just calcify when they die

[craggy smelt]

part of me suspects that the entombment we see on some Weavers might be natural, or produced from them in some way

[limpid summit]

Yeah I feel that

[craggy smelt]

like they produce that rock-like material around them

[limpid summit]

Cause even the Absolom weaver is entombed

Maybe that’s what happens when their silk runs out?

[craggy smelt]

FS' cage interior is all gilded filigree like the rest of the Slab, but her burial cocoon almost looks like it's spread over top of the gold

and there are gilded protrusions in the cocoon

like she was entombed first and then transported there? it's weird

[limpid summit]

Well hm

Maybe she was killed somewhere else

[muted lantern]

I had a very loose idea a while back that what if herrah was cindril but changed her name and mask when becoming queen of deepnest.

[limpid summit]

Weavenest atla has that weird opening into the grotto maybe she battled other weavers there

[limpid summit]

I guess there’s nothing proving or disproving that

[muted lantern]

Not really substantiated just an interesting thought

[craggy smelt]

I'd have to check, but maybe she was entombed there? and then the tomb was removed and transported

depends on how much like a burial spire it is

[limpid summit]

I think I’m inclined to not believe it just because I want more named weavers to be there

[craggy smelt]

I've read the theory that Cindrill gives us the dash

because that's running related

[limpid summit]

Wait I forgot she just like isn’t in a pillar

She’s just there

Okay yeah that’s probably just a thing that happens

[edgy nebula]

aurafarming

[limpid summit]

Also I would have to look into this more

[craggy smelt]

here's a clearer one

[limpid summit]

But I think it’s gilded like Weaver era gilded

Like the bronze ish highlights

Second sentinel shows there was still some gilded-ish metalwork weaver era

[muted lantern]

Wouldn't cindril not be in pharloom tho?

[craggy smelt]

not necessarily, she might have stayed behind to coordinate the diaspora and make shoes for everybody

or she figured the silken saviour would one day need to learn how to, like, run

[keen vector]

hey lore people

I have a question

[limpid summit]

Ask away

[keen vector]

if hornet uses sting shards in kingdoms edge, why does she lose it and have to re buy / craft it again from the forge daughter, how does she get access from it?

this

[limpid summit]

The rune cage sapped her silk skills

As far as tools though

Idk the citadel bugs probably just took them

[keen vector]

yuh

how does forge daughter

get her

[craggy smelt]

Hornet probably needed Forge Daughter to figure out how to re-create the design using local materials

[wide dew]

she gives forge daughter the blueprints

and she makes them

A vicious stabbing trap? We can build it. Just know, it disturbs us, these devious implements you conceive to kill.

[twin dragon]

She probably escaped doe

[twin dragon]

She js loses them

its not like sting shards are an innate hornet ability

[craggy smelt]

maybe
sometimes people who plan escapes still stay behind

[craggy smelt]

the question was why she needs Forge Daughter to replace them, since presumably she knows how to make them herself already

I guess maybe they didn't have shellshards in Hallownest

[twin dragon]

Improved design maybe?

[craggy smelt]

I figured she'd at least need to know how to make them using Pharloom mats

[knotty pulsar]

Do hornet's cogflies have silkflies in them? Because that's how the cog enemies and fourth chorus work

[twin dragon]

Maybe she doesnt have the mats

A chunk of craftmetal isn't really much

[near jasper]

I mean she already has silk to power them herself

[near jasper]

Well theres still the design of the burial spire, id assume it broke down into that Rubble on the floor

[whole holly]

i wish mt. fay had complete weavenest

[patent shale]

yeah

[blissful harbor]

they don’t

we don’t see any leave when they get destroyed

hornet stuffing the soul of a random bug into her pet

[bold cypress]

They're just mechanical.

[near jasper]

Ithink the little spine looking architecture in weaver's burial spire, Eva's shell (inside) and the first sinner cage are meant to serve a similar function of the ridges of soul totems in hallownest, the burial spire's need to keep the weaver's soul intact so it can be bound by a descendant, first sinner's cage has to keep her locked for eternity so her soul has to be trapped in there if a pilgrim tries to kill her, eva is made out of soul (through runes through silk) so if they failed in some way they could restart from the soul kept in the shell

[bold cypress]

Interesting

[near jasper]

You can even see Something like it on the top of this soul totem

[frigid meadow]

@eager owl

[craggy smelt]

this is also true of the Servitor enemies in the weavenests iirc

Weavers don't need to do that for their machines

they use silk runes instead

[edgy nebula]

conductors knew about silk runes too why didnt they just use them

such geniuses running the citadel

[craggy smelt]

might've been a lost art
Architects mention that the Weavers were inspiration for them, but they seem to have lost knowledge over time

there's also that choral commandment that talks about becoming cogwork beings, maybe they welcomed being turned into a silkfly to power it?