sk-lore

[whole holly]

i agree, it's mostly observation

[gentle aspen]

And sure, why would she? she’s lived a life of turmoil and constant combat, if a wild animal comes at her she’s gonna strike back

she isn’t being apathetic or dominating to lesser beings she’s just being realistic

[brisk lava]

They were literally stuck there

[gentle aspen]

so?

[brisk lava]

How could they actively choose to avoid hardship if they were stuck?

They just evolved to fit their environment

[gentle aspen]

No one is saying they’re actively avoiding hardship

[brisk lava]

That's what being coddled implies

[gentle aspen]

no it doesn’t

It just means one lived a life in comfort and overprotection

[brisk lava]

So what is coddling in this instance? Their hole?

[gentle aspen]

It says and implies nothing about the choice of the coddled individual

And this is besides the point, you’re claiming she’s showing apathy here, when she isn’t

[whole holly]

lack of danger and lack of struggle

[gentle aspen]

She’s quite literally just noting their behavior and circumstances and saying “oh, they wouldn’t be able to survive outside this environment” because they wouldn’t

[gentle aspen]

its even noted that they have zero reaction to things that endanger their lives

Slow drifting bug with a heavy top shell. The bug reacts little to threats, even those that could claim its life.

[brisk lava]

So are kiwis irl before cats came along, but we still try to save them from extinction when their coddling "stops"

[gentle aspen]

what does that have to with anything

[brisk lava]

Hornet subscribes to the idea of might makes right, if you die "I would feel no pity in a weakling's demise"

If that's not apathy towards a whole species, I don't know what is

[gentle aspen]

Do you realize that this statement has context tied to it

[brisk lava]

Yes, the vessels

[gentle aspen]

No

The context is she is literally testing a specific being and wouldn’t feel sadness in their death because it’s a test

[whole holly]

she makes observation of their environment, kiwis are species in danger because humans introduced cats kiwis have no correlation here

[brisk lava]

But she clearly only respects strength at first sight, only coming to respect the pilgrim's pacifism after realizing how grueling their journey is

[gentle aspen]

So you'd pursue the deeper truth? It isn't one the weak could bear.

Prove yourself ready to face it. I'll not hold back. My needle is lethal and I'd feel no sadness in a weakling's demise.
Show me you can accept this Kingdom's past and claim responsibility for its future.

Like

read

[brisk lava]

Kiwis are isolated from predators due to being in an island, thus they evolved to optimize in those conditions. There's even a term for it "island syndrome"

[foggy fractal]

📖 👓 👀

[brisk lava]

Imobas are also isolated, but underground, not unlike some cave species

[whole holly]

they aren't relevant though, sure they are coddled but, they can't survive change because of how adapted their are to low danger environment

sames with imobas

[brisk lava]

And yes, many of those also die due to being crushed or outcompeted once their habitat changes or another species is introduced

[whole holly]

hornet makes observation about how imobas are coddled by their low danger environment, therefore can't adapt to danger

[limpid summit]

Where did Lace learn to fight

She has the Sentinel counter

[whole holly]

that's what hornet anticipates and notes

[gentle aspen]

up your butt and round the corner

[whole holly]

Pinstress? Sentinel? who knows

[gentle aspen]

idk man from citadel folks

[thick dock]

I could be completely incorrect but I think some of the moves are from pinstress

At least that’s where second sentinel got her X slash from allegedly

🤷🏻‍♀️

[brisk lava]

And yet the citadel's conductors insisted in trying to preserve the many creatures of pharloom

[brisk lava]

Most likely, considering what happened to one of the green princes

[gentle aspen]

The citadel’s conductors are also awful people who benefitted from a horrendous system and their attempts at preservations amounted to zoos

[thick dock]

Exactly 🫡

I feel bad, I murked that man not knowing he’d die

Rip :(

[whole holly]

i don't think you are getting my point, point is that Imobas lack adaptability to danger and that's objective observation by hornet, not empathic failure

[thick dock]

Hornet is just trying to survive, it’s the circle of life :(

[whole holly]

anyways i have to go guys

[brisk lava]

I do understand your point, but I am trying to argue that Hornet wouldn't be bothered to save the defenseless bugs of pharloom unless they were intelligent

[whole holly]

that's typical writer's projection of human-centrism, if sapient bugs are smart like humans and humans tend to care about smarter and similar species and less about dumber species it makes sense tc wrote for hornet too feel similar

[brisk lava]

See? we are in accordance

[gentle aspen]

if that were the case she would not be a conservationist

[brisk lava]

Exactly

[gentle aspen]

wdym exactly

I’m disagreeing with you

[brisk lava]

How?

Are you saying she's a conservationist?

[gentle aspen]

she does have some conservationist ideals yes

[brisk lava]

Well she clearly doesn't put that much effort into it if she is

[whole holly]

but she isn't selective though, by freeing lace and stopping Act 3 void haunting she. rescues sapient and non-sapient bugs equally, she simply tends to resonate with sapient bugs more because she can communicate with them

[gentle aspen]

she also doesn’t put much effort in not being racist towards flies

[brisk lava]

Also this

[gentle aspen]

Destroying the hives will limit their presence in the wood. Useful to me now, as I pass along the branches. Dangerous in time for the wood's order. Even a small disruption can tip a fragile balance.

there’s also this

Silksong kinda just has poor writing at times

[brisk lava]

Okay, then what you actually are arguing for is that Hornet isn't apathetic towards sapient bugs, not bugs in general then, right?

[whole holly]

partially, she cares about kingdoms and settlements rather than individuals

[brisk lava]

Or she is not a conservationist, and only cares about saving those she has positive relations with or have her respect

[gentle aspen]

^^^^^

she also isn’t someone who only saves certain people idk where you got that from

[brisk lava]

That's what she claims, her actions though are... Questionable

[finite wind]

yes, I found lot of inconsistencies that I talked about here

I think it boils down to what tc said, that they sometimes write draft dialogue that just ends up being the final version

[brisk lava]

I more so think it's the difficulty of balancing an active agent as a protagonist such as Hornet and the player's actions

[finite wind]

also that's true sometimes

[brisk lava]

TC is clearly struggling

[finite wind]

it has both

[brisk lava]

This is the best example of the problem of trying to make sure Hornet's character agrees to player actions

Also the flea games

[brisk lava]

She doesn't care at all about the wormways'es bugs unless it's about how it could negatively impact the surrounding environments (like those occupied by sentient bugs like the Marrow and possibly Shellwood)

[finite wind]

she also kills the baby judges but not the broodmother´s baby

[brisk lava]

She (can be) directly blamed for aiding a scientist in unethical experimentation

[gentle aspen]

[maiden meteor]

they’re at very least closely related

[brisk lava]

Basically, yes, she does grant special attention and selectively saves entire ecosystems

[maiden meteor]

Grimm specifically said couple times to feed on memories

[brisk lava]

Sure, I agree, especially with the dreamroots being "memories taking root in the world"

Wait, are those roots related to greyroot or even white lady then?

The white lady is literally so powerful she's capable of directly interacting through memories while consciously knowing she's being talked to from a memory

Just like Grimm and, to some extent, Hornet in Godhome (which is a dream, not a memory)

Maybe GMS is the ruler of the memory realm like GRIMM is of the nightmare and RADIANCE is of the dream realm

It is an ability only seen in Weavers (and maybe shamans?) thus far

Whatever the case, TC really needs to set the record straight on the other realms of Hollow Knight

[midnight reef]

you know they wont

As far as Im willing to say, theres only 2, 3 if your kinda pushing it
The "normal" world and the dream realm

there doesnt seem to be one firm memory realm, they are as a bug remembers a time, place, or item

I say 3 because theres technically the nightmare realm which is slightly different than the dream realm but still a part of it in my understanding

honestly, what we see with the Elegy of the Deep is far closer to what I believe the Dream Realm was originally planned to be

[brisk lava]

Yeah, the dream diving scrapped mechanic

[midnight reef]

yeah

[brisk lava]

Still, they made an active effort to differentiate between dreams and memories, unlike in Hallownest

[midnight reef]

I feel like its a major stretch though to think theres a "memory realm"
Bugs have memories, the Shamans and other spellcasters figured out how to see/experience the memories of others

[midnight reef]

yeah

Its probably a case of TC not really planning ahead

same with the shift in depiction of Weaver's masks

[brisk lava]

Well "biding" seems to be the counterpart to focus in that you can bind someone's essence, just like the knight could focus the infection into himself

[midnight reef]

they're the same thing, though the material is different, afaik

[brisk lava]

Definitely

[midnight reef]

the knight could focus, directly using soul they could glean and store within their shell

Hornet doesnt have the ability to directly manipulate soul, instead using it in a medium- her silk, binding instead

[brisk lava]

Not necessarily, the knight can focus Radiance without soul, it only needs soul to heal

[midnight reef]

Plus the Vessels do just sorta have a propensity to absorbing things

The knight sorta did just eat the Crystal Heart

[brisk lava]

Due to void, which Hornet confirms that it can bind someone (maybe the literal meaning of being restrained, but the magical usage of it could be argued for)

[midnight reef]

yea

[brisk lava]

Or being a pale being

[midnight reef]

I do kinda hope we get more on how the Shamans made use of Soul

Chances are we wont

we see one use with summoning the void to consume GMS

But I doubt thats their only use, lol

[brisk lava]

I think we already have an inkling due to confessor Jiji and Sula being able to summon void, possibly, by the usage of "only simple bugs" souls

[midnight reef]

yea

Soul is an interesting thing in HK

The shamans did seem to have some role within the Citidel at one point, or relation to the Weavers

The lore tablets in the ruined chapel suggest that to me, at least

[brisk lava]

Or they could be how they extracted soul and formed them into spells

[midnight reef]

true, thats a better explanation

if thats what the Shamans were doing in Hallownest, no wonder they werent well liked

[brisk lava]

Maybe it's related to the whole "spiraling power" they sing about

[brisk lava]

They literally had shells upon shells of bugs close to their chapels

Not unlike those of the soul sanctum

[midnight reef]

In the first game I assumed they were natural acumulations over an extreme amount of time

Not something the Shamans actively made

[brisk lava]

Brother they put those on pikes and are literally called shamans

Plus they are snails

I have a working theory that the abyss creatures aren't bugs, but gastropods or some other kind of animal

Which could include the shamans

[midnight reef]

I do like that

[brisk lava]

And they aren't void beings like the shades or collector or what have you, but just adapted to use void in their biology

Since they still give soul they are definitely not pure void

[midnight reef]

adapted to use void, or to make use of void

Shamans dont seem to depend on it in any way

Other than just having an unhealthy obsession

...and maybe they also have a severe inbreeding problem, they all seem to be related somehow

[brisk lava]

maybe they also don't need much sustenance like Hornet, but not because of being a pale being but because their exposure to void dulls their desires and gives them strength

[brisk lava]

Or they are the only living descendants of the fallen kingdom they're singing about (possibly ancient civilization)

[midnight reef]

Im glad we did end up getting a bit more on the shamans in Silksong

they were extremely interesting in HK, and while not perfect Silksong did some cool stuff with them

[brisk lava]

And they have increased lifespans due to soul

Funny how the charm(which can be the dying wish of a bug) that we find in a Egyptian-like sarcophagus is called Soul Eater

Perhaps it's why the snail race is obsessed with void in the first place

(snails can be notoriously dangerous invasive species to bugs)

[midnight reef]

Void seems to have extremely good uses in manipulating soul

[brisk lava]

Not manipulating, binding

Like the void threads and vessels

Also WL directly states their family is intrinsically linked to void

[maiden meteor]

I wonder how bad Weavers had it if they decided to put their very existence on the line just to escape GMS

[brisk lava]

Considering the existence of Weavenest Absolom, very

[maiden meteor]

they were assholes but they probably weren’t dumb enough to try defying their god and creator just to be the rulers

[brisk lava]

They realized the truth of their creation and wanted back their freedom

[maiden meteor]

considering the lengths they went their life under GMS must’ve been miserable

also parallels between GMS and PK are kinda funny

[brisk lava]

Or they had the primal urge to be free just as strong as the pale being's urge to dominate

[maiden meteor]

GMS tried to be mother so hard but couldn’t see beyond her own ego and made her children miserable while PK tried to be awful parent to save Hallownest but failed

I think it’s kinda sad we don’t see too much of GMS character besides Silk Hearts and her actions during the game

PK also had very few characterizations in HK but we can still see he was pretty cool guy burdened by his position and impending doom

While GMS is basically sleepy shitty mom

Radiance also had somewhat shallow character but it made sense cause after ages of being nigh forgotten and dead all that remains of her is rage

[edgy nebula]

she kinda can

she leeches off of bug's soul when hitting them and her body transforms it into silk

[blissful harbor]

she transforms her body into silk?

is there an ability or something i’m not thinking of

like sharpdart is just wrapping her in silk not becoming silk

[glossy agate]

not to the point of doing a collective punishment and infecting the entire kingdom for eternity

[viscid ridge]

Her lineage probably allows her to directly use soul, but she probably just finds it easier to use her soul infused silk instead. I hope we get some clarity, cause if she can directly use soul i wouldn't be surprised

[maiden meteor]

Well it makes sense if you consider that rage and desire to be remembered was all that remained of Radiance

she probably didn’t think of consequences of her actions cause she couldn’t think straight anymore

she was basically reduced to animal with god powers

[viscid ridge]

What would the infection then be?

[glossy agate]

and now they are all in the void

[glossy agate]

i mean the infection it self is crossing the line

[viscid ridge]

Maybe im just dumb cause im not sure what you mean?

[maiden meteor]

I don’t think infection was a goal itself but rather a byproduct of Radiance violently digging her way into bugs’ minds

[glossy agate]

Nyx mentioned how it made sense that the radiance started the infection, im saying that the infection is crossing the line by how it is intended to infect the entire kingdom

[viscid ridge]

Oh i understand

[maiden meteor]

Rad probably wouldn’t want bugs to become immobile piles of orange goop if she intended to kill Knight

which is kinda the end stage of infection

you can also see how Rad controls bugs through Myla

[glossy agate]

that is possible

it makes sense

[maiden meteor]

which is a deranged strings of violent incoherent commands

which is very different from GMS where she has finer control over bugs and even able to send them on the missions outside Pharloom

Honestly if Rad wasn’t brimming with rage infection would probably be far more dangerous

[glossy agate]

what doesn't make sense is that if she didn't want everyone to be so mindless why did she continue infecting

[maiden meteor]

Well again, she wasn’t thinking straight at this point

She just violently clawed her way out of the oblivion full of anger directed at all of the creation

She couldn’t be reasoned with nor she probably could control her own powers

[viscid ridge]

From my personal interpretation it always seemed like the infection was a way to completely destroy everything that the Pale King built, something purely born from hate. I personally think that she knew how the infection worked, because all the higher beings seem to he way more in the know of how the world works, and considering we see something similar happen with lifeblood

[glossy agate]

then imo i think she deserved what came to her

[viscid ridge]

I think this is just the type of form dream infections takes and spreads

[glossy agate]

yeah that too

[viscid ridge]

Im personally more on the Pale Kings side than i am on the Radiances side, but i can understand her motivations.

[glossy agate]

same

[viscid ridge]

But like imagine being so incredibly selfish that your opponent had to resort to killing thousands of his own children just to try and stop you.

[maiden meteor]

Honestly tragedy of Hollow Knight is that there’s no really anyone at complete fault

[viscid ridge]

Exactly thats why i love it

[maiden meteor]

We don’t have evidence Pale King deliberately tried to destroy Radiance nor that Radiance deserved to be betrayed and forgotten by her own people

it’s just a really unfortunate chain of events that led to mass death and destruction and Rad feels (at least to me) as much of a victim as everyone else

Even moths (at least some of them) realized their grave mistake but it was too late

I think Silksong kinda lacks in that aspect cause we can pretty much blame GMS and Weavers for everyone’s suffering

throw Conductors into the bunch too

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, but to me, the reason i am more on PKs side. Radiances only motivation was to not die or he forgotten herself, while Pale Kings motivation was just to not let all of his citizens and subjects die and he controlled forever.

So to me personally Radiance is incredibly selfish, while Pale King acted so selfless to the point he was willing to sacrifice his own children, which is also wrong but it came from a act of true desperation.

[maiden meteor]

well, I can’t really blame Rad either

she spent unknown ages probably barely even existing

even during the game events she probably feels like a cornered animal

because she knows that the only thing able to destroy her is approaching

[spark valve]

y'know I can in fact blame radiance for being mad and deciding everything in existence should die

[gentle aspen]

during the game’s events she has almost free reign to infect who she chooses and is slowly weakening thk to the point that they’re gonna fail

[gentle aspen]

She also like, decided to murder everyone and is the reason Soul Master committed the genocide of city bugs to fuel his delusions of immortality and fixing the infection with soul

honestly the only thing I can fully say rad was maybe kinda okay doing was killing the moths but even then, there would be moths who weren’t the ones who forgot her

her situation is fucked but she made it a thousand times worse

[maiden meteor]

didn’t Soul Master decide to inject himself with copious amounts of soul on his own accord

and then got infected

[gentle aspen]

No

the idea of using soul came from his dreams

[maiden meteor]

ahh

[maiden meteor]

but again, I don’t really think she decided to kill everyone

She herself was probably reduced to basic instincts

and rage

[spark valve]

we just makin shit up now ok

[blissful harbor]

what makes you think you that

[maiden meteor]

Her erratic behavior?

[blissful harbor]

the behavior much more in line with blind rage?
idk how that equals her being reduced to basic instincts

[maiden meteor]

We kinda see her turning her own army into pile of orange goop

I really don’t think Rad was some kind of mastermind plotting her revenge

[viscid ridge]

I think its more blind hate and rage, not pure instinct

[maiden meteor]

In this way her influence on bugs is probably a reflection of her own state in a way

[blissful harbor]

yea because she was just lashing out in anger
there wasn’t like an army she was tryna raise to go against PK

[maiden meteor]

She did pull up her resources to try kill TK tho

[blissful harbor]

who is trying to seal her again

[maiden meteor]

I also think it’s interesting that we don’t really see malice from Radiance herself

I mean her dream nail dialogue

she basically just says that she wants to be remembered and free

[rustic junco]

ok ill post this here

Hornet cannot needolin the thoughtless primal bugs outside pharloom. Thus the bugs are thoughtless and one could call them, hollow? This inherently means the Pale King is a dumbass and should've just taken a bug in the wastes as a containment for the Radiance, but I digress.

Hornet cannot needolin herself in Hollow Knight SIlksong. This inherently means deduces that she's hollow. And that's why the game is called Hollow Knight Silksong. Cause, she's the hollow knight all along.

Philosophically and logically infallible argument.

While the second part of the argument is a bit of a logical fallacy, I must ask, would the thoughtless nature of bugs in the wastes be inherently hollow enough to contain the radiance?

[fresh badger]

Myla moment

... how much longer... KILL IT... how much longer... DANGEROUS... how much longer... KILL IT... how much longer... KILL THE EMPTY ONE... ...how much longer... must I dig...?

[uneven marten]

arent the vessels more like containers than bugs

[rustic junco]

reanimated corpses? in a way? also void is clearly some kind of entity too

[viscid ridge]

Undead void filled gods essentially

[maiden meteor]

I mean, Knight is here to seal/kill her so it makes sense she would want them gone

she isn’t trying to kill TK as sort of retaliation or revenge, she still just wants to live

[rustic junco]

overreaction tbh, the knight cant be empty

source: nosk

[fresh badger]

Hollow doesnt refer to just beasty thoughts. As far as we know, hollowness/purity is simply the ability to contain the Radiance indefinitely. The whole birthplace speech was just him describing qualities he believed were related. Thoughtless mind that cant be manipulated by Radiance, unbreaking will, etc.

The Wastes dont have any thought reducing property, but exiting Hallownest's mind expanding beacon to go in the wastes means the bugs with expanded minds got reduced back to the pre-beacon state.

Honestly vro idk how you can claim needolin and hollowness are even related

[maiden meteor]

eh, empty enough to stall her at least temporarily

[rustic junco]

is needolin strong enough to see all thoughts is the question

or is it just a flawed tool that can detect up to a certain extent of primitivity

[fresh badger]

🥀 the Knight is just bumming around without a goal until later on

[viscid ridge]

Hes explaining the logical phallusy of the other guy i think, im trying to follow their discussion 🤣😅

[maiden meteor]

don’t you get this dialogue like way later into the game

[fresh badger]

After killing soul master

Which can happen before even getting dnail

[maiden meteor]

Well, that’s kinda enough ruckus for Radiance to notice knight

and it’s not like she doesn’t know what’s purpose of vessels

and she probably can sense void inside them too

[fresh badger]

I wouldnt even call it thought sensing, it kinda just invokes bugs to sing? Which is weird but hey

And with the haunteds somehow it establishes a link along the silk since silk contains memories?

[rustic junco]

Yeah but how do you explain the animals singing into literal words then?

[maiden meteor]

Do they sing into words tho

[fresh badger]

needolin is weird

[rustic junco]

I interpret it as thoughts of the animals cause theres no way in hell those leaf floater things in far fields are singing real words

[maiden meteor]

UI kinda looks like mind reading

[rustic junco]

Yeah thus, is needolin then reading thoughts?

[maiden meteor]

Also Greyroot sings but we don’t see any dialogue from it

[viscid ridge]

Remember needolin only effects bugs that have been infested with silk, and also if a bug wants to sing along of their own accord. Im pretty sure almost all the more animalistic bugs wouldn't sing along with the needolin if they didn't have silk stuck inside them

[rustic junco]

does zaza have needolin?

[fresh badger]

Yeah thats why I talked about the haunted critters maybe having their thoughts/memories yoinked by the silk?

Yes

[viscid ridge]

As can be seen on the surface, those bugs dont have any silk stuck in them, so no magical compulsion to sing

[maiden meteor]

I think needoline can read thoughts and stuff cause silk is sort of extension of GMS own power

[fresh badger]

Whats weirder is that different melodies do different things

[maiden meteor]

and HBs seem all to have some sort of ability to interact with minds

[rustic junco]

zaza isnt infected by GMS silk no?

[fresh badger]

He isnt

[fresh badger]

Actually wait, the other needolin tunes still cause dialogue

Oh bell beast is another unhaunted singing beast

With no dialogue

[maiden meteor]

Needoline is basically just Weaver version of dream nail, packed with memory diving abilities n all

[viscid ridge]

No, but as i said a lot of the sing out of their own free will, like all of the citizens of pharloom that arent currently haunted

[rustic junco]

so you're telling me that zaza can talk normally?

[fresh badger]

Memory diving was from the snail song not the needolin itself

[maiden meteor]

It could be both

[viscid ridge]

He may have silk stuck inside him, but he isn't magically compelled to sing, he sings cause he likes hornet

[maiden meteor]

Needoline can dive into memory but it needs right melody

[viscid ridge]

Did i say that?

[fresh badger]

Zaza is actually intelligent tho like he is peers with Garmond. Hornet calls them sirs, the two are paired in their journal entry (and it uses plural pronouns)

[maiden meteor]

if it was just snail song there probably wouldn’t be that Weaver-styled entrances

another point for weavers having own memory abilities is fact that FS fight obviously happens in memoryscape

[rustic junco]

yeah but if zaza isn't saying words, then the needolin clearly interprets his thoughts

[fresh badger]

Aye! Zaza and I'll fight to cavern's end if it need be, for the bugs held in our hearts, and our honour as knights!

[viscid ridge]

I have no doubt that Garmond and Zaza both have silk stuck inside them, but they aren't Haunted like we see with the citizens of bellhart

[fresh badger]

Zaza is a knight

[viscid ridge]

Yeah?

[maiden meteor]

Silk is just Pharloom version of lead

it’s everywhere

[fresh badger]

microplastics*

[rustic junco]

ok so we're not disagreeing

anyways, how accurate is needolin? is it just like dream nail? or is it less effective?

[viscid ridge]

Im just not sure what your point was with pointing it out? 😅

[maiden meteor]

isn’t there tablet in Marrow that straight up says that silk’s everywhere

[rustic junco]

i thought you were saying something else nvm my bad

[maiden meteor]

like in water, soil and whatnot

[fresh badger]

Given it cant read nonsilken beasts like bell beast or the surface beasts its worse

[maiden meteor]

Bell Beast is simply head empty

[fresh badger]

Actually ig even dream nail didnt get dialogue from bv or the shadow creepers

[viscid ridge]

Its stuck inside the bugs, because the citidel ward used silk to heal and extend the lives of bugs, which they passed on to their children

[maiden meteor]

it’s kinda weird she doesn’t have any silk in her considering she swallowed whole silk heart

[rustic junco]

she's just that strong i guess

[maiden meteor]

Also needoline is probably weaker than dream nail cause it might’ve been not made with initial purpose of mind reading

For all we know Widow could’ve twisted Weaver magic to ensnare minds

[rustic junco]

also the awoken dream nail is a thing too

[viscid ridge]

The initial purpose was to sustain GMS, but its said by the vaultkeeper that the music is holy, so thats probably what causes its effects.

But i imagine theres a large variety of effects that the music subsection of silk can do.

[maiden meteor]

It was also used to enter weavenests

I think music just was inherit to weaver culture cause it’s how they worshipped their “mother”

and later imprisoned her

Vatsonian explanation is just that web strings used as instrument is a cool idea

[viscid ridge]

As said probably a wide variety of magical effects that can be done with silk songs

[maiden meteor]

Maybe GMS initially taught them music magic to empower her and later weavers managed to expand it into other stuff

I gotta give one to them they were smart as hell

I mean after ancient civilization and PK they were probably the closest to understanding void

or they just understood it well enough to not mess with it too much

oh I forgot Shamans

[zinc fox]

I love ||Bell beast||
It’s absolute adorable stone looking dog

[alpine spruce]

WAIT SO THE KNIGHT IS SOMEWHAT ALIVE??????

[zinc fox]

||technically he is! In true ending, he is shown saving his sister, and was in his shadow lord form, thus it means 5th pantheon + gentle flower is canon ending||
||it’s kinda sweet that he saved Hornet when she needed the most||

[alpine spruce]

So godhome ending is kinda canon then

[rustic junco]

I'd argue the void is like a parasite that reanimated the corpse

[alpine spruce]

But why did it saved hornet then?

If it was a parasite then it would've just devoured hornet and lace

[rustic junco]

it's a chill parasite fr

[alpine spruce]

I have a theory that since the knight (aka ghost) was always the shade lord, he has full dominion on the abyss regardless where or what kingdom

Like he IS the abyss

[viscid ridge]

Yeah his shade exists still, like all tge siblings

[viscid ridge]

Personally feel the ending implies Dream no more to be canon, considering the events leading up to it perfectly encapsulates the story of the game and the characters, while i see Godhome as more of a AU, but its up to your own interpretation

[alpine spruce]

Oh yeah the radiance defeat can count as well

Maybe that explains why hornet got captured in the first place

She left hollownest after that the kingdom is now somewhat radiance free

[vestal oyster]

hypothetical question if there was an act 4 what would it really be about

i got some ideas like enemies that resent the citadel attacking a weakened citadel or hornet going back to a thousands of years old hallownest

[alpine spruce]

Isn't act 4 gonna be SoS?

[tawdry flare]

there is no confirmation of an act 4

i would prefer an alternative act 3 personally...

[alpine spruce]

Then what's Sea of Sorrow then?

[tawdry flare]

adds (a) new area[s]

[alpine spruce]

Yeah act 4 is prolly gonna take another 8 years by team cherry

Not surprised if it comes out when I'm at a retirement home

[vestal oyster]

i would love for SoS to take place after act 3 ending but then the hunter's journal...

[alpine spruce]

Also I wonder if they gonna connect act 3's ending to where the void is now completely gone

Unless a new threat comes around

[viscid ridge]

I HOPE its accessible during act 2, but my guess thedoor to the bay will be broken open during act 3

Cause i dont want my only experience with the the bay to be ruined by void

[viscid ridge]

Void isn't completely gone, its still there by the end of the game.

[pale narwhal]

on the other hand i dont want to have to start a new save or delete my existing progress just to see everything the dlc has

i should probably start on that now tbh
so i can have an almost complete act 2 save to do the dlc with if necessary

[viscid ridge]

If it is made available in act 2, you can do it in either act 2 or 3, like a lot of areas

[pale narwhal]

yea but most of the areas that can be done in both change significantly between the two

[viscid ridge]

I just dont want it to be exclusive to act 3 like the ant area

[pale narwhal]

karak is the only one that doesnt really

[viscid ridge]

But thats exactly why i dont want it to be exclusive to act 3. Cause i want to be able to experience it without void mucking up the place

[pale narwhal]

the new area could just be outside of GMS's area of influence making it beyond the reach of her act 3 void threads

[viscid ridge]

I doubt it will considering its right beside pharloom

[pale narwhal]

i mean even whats left of verdania seems safe from the void in the present day iirc

[viscid ridge]

Like my guess is we will probably get a quest in bellhart after some arbitrary condition, that will open up the door and we would be free to do SoS if we wish

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but im mostly talking about void tendrils being in the fore and background, rocks from cradle littering the place, everything being darker, and most significantly voided enemies. I would rather be able to do it in act 2 first.

[robust wagon]

No act 4

[robust wagon]

I've got one of those, it's a good fail safe to have

[vestal oyster]

is there any lore to the roach feeding enemy guys in sinners road. i'm talking about roachfeeder, roachkeeper, roachcatcher and roachserver

[gentle aspen]

self explanatory

[sinful nimbus]

flammenwerfer

Anyway yeah they basically just tend to the muckroaches which are Greymoor's main food supply

Roachfeeders look to be a similar species as the pinstresses/craws/maybe stilkin ig

[edgy nebula]

pinstress learned the pin from the now dead great muckroach sensei

the secret lore tc doesnt want you to know

[rancid oriole]

Does Hornet actually cares about her family? The pale king, her other vessel siblings?

Like the ghost and Hollow Knight?

[sinful nimbus]

Sounds likely

Maybe not THK idk if they've ever met

I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't love the Pale King either considering how she trash talks him in the wingmould entry

[muted lantern]

I think hornet probably didn't have a great relationship with pk. I imagine he loved her but he felt so guilty about thk he didn't let himself get attached.

Her resentment of him probably stems from that and her long duty

[rancid oriole]

To be fair, he probably saw her as "part of the deal" with the third dreamer

Like: "oh another failed vessel for the list"

[muted lantern]

I mean you could say that he saw thk as means to an end too but he still loved them in whatever detached way he did

[rancid oriole]

Yeah, I plenty saw the results of that "love"

Is there any clue in silksong about the pale king's death?

[muted lantern]

Not saying he was a good father.

Don't think we got how he died ever

Dlc could inform us tho

[amber grove]

can anyone help me with act 3?

I'm having issues getting to it

[muted lantern]

Wrong chat

[craggy smelt]

I joke about Sharpe assassinating him

but can you imagine if it turns out to be true...

[crystal marsh]

it's noteworthy to mention that PK thought THK failed because of something he did to it later down the line, but he's wrong about that because the failure was intrinsic

[dreamy onyx]

Unrelated but once I saw you in mossbag comment section and I had to a double take

[dreamy onyx]

are muckroaches only for Greymoor or are they also a food source for the citadel

[craggy smelt]

yeah, my ass is everywhere

[fickle basin]

I think only for greymoor

Muckroaches taste bad

The citadel ate grand gourmands

Or its ingredients

[craggy smelt]

...huh

you think they fattened them up for slaughter?

there's a theory...

[fickle basin]

Theories could be created by anyone in the world

[craggy smelt]

all these theories I've heard

[prime mantle]

wdym the citadel ate grand gourmands

[autumn umbra]

do the people in Greymoor not know that farming predators is not energy-efficient smh

[alpine spruce]

ok but fr tho

does this mean hornet and gms kinda related?

[prime mantle]

they seem to be pretty efficient as maggots

what grazer even is there in sinner's road

everything from bilewater is poisonous

[autumn umbra]

what's grazer?

[autumn umbra]

they eat the maggots???

[prime mantle]

probably, we know the bilewater guys do, and lugoli prepares picked maggots in sinner's road

[autumn umbra]

ye Hornet's mother was elevated to sapience by gms. so gms is kinda her grandmother

[autumn umbra]

ohh

[prime mantle]

animal that grazes, though i meant any prey animal

[autumn umbra]

i didn't know those were rouch maggots. i always assumed those were the things they were feeding the roaches to then eat them. bc they couldn't eat the maggots

[autumn umbra]

okie!! thanks for clarifying

[autumn umbra]

but it seems then can

[prime mantle]

well there's probably all sorts of maggots, but in the hunters journal muckmaggots are right before the larval form of the roaches (idr the name) and then the roaches

i didnt know they were related at first either

[prime mantle]

they might still be doing this lol

[autumn umbra]

lmao truee

I still don't know how that'd work T^T)

if they're feeding them any other animal they should consider eating that directly

[prime mantle]

it might be that muckmaggots just feed on whatever is in the water

and then they're fed to the roaches

they are predators though, so obviously they'd prefer to gnaw on their keepers or hornet

[autumn umbra]

ic

[paper sphinx]

was the wisp thicket just

there

when the citadel was built

or did the ppl in underworks do stuff to it that made it look like it does now

assuming that at some point in the past it was a regular part of greymoor

[craggy smelt]

the other way around, I'd say
Greymoor was probably once all like Wisp Thicket (many of the structures in greymoor are the bamboo-like growths from WT)
then the Citadel crapped up the place

[twin dragon]

all of this could probably be part of old verdania

[viscid ridge]

Id say sinners road was more like wisp thicket, apparently Greymoor was all farmland before the citidel took it over

[marble oasis]

They do feed the roaches maggot gruel but maggots are also heavily implied to be roach larvae

[autumn umbra]

so they making them cannibalize :0

[low oracle]

No? Pale King elevated the majority of bugs in Hallownest. Does that mean he is their father, and is related to them?

[autumn umbra]

Hornet's mother is Herrah. a Weaver from Pharloom

not native to Hallownest

[low oracle]

Sinners road was very likely either the same as Greymoor or a completely different area (not Wisp thicket). It was between Farmland and a Swamp (which may or may not have resembled the Pale Lake to some extent). The Wisp thicket on the other hand is a unique little area, similar to Verdania, both being separated from the rest of Pharloom.

Of course we can't say anything for certain anyways, but I believe Sinner's Road would have resembled Greymoor the most. Mites are apparent in both areas, and they are closely working together in present times.

[low oracle]

How does that change anything?

[autumn umbra]

gms elevates a Pharlid to be Herrah. all the Pharloom story happens. Herrah and some Weavers arrive at Hallownest. by that point the PK had already given sapience to the bugs there OR it happened after. but the Weavers' sapience comes from gms. both gms and pk are pale higher beings so it makes sense that both can elevate a mortal bug

[low oracle]

I know, but how does that conclude to GMS and Herrah/Hornet being related?

[foggy stratus]

Maybe it has to do with GMS’s silk that gives some weird form of relation? Either that or adoption I guess I dunno.

[low oracle]

There is no biological relation. Sure, they can make silk from soul now. But the other bugs also gained sapience and such too. They both had changes to their biology, but that doesn't mean there is a biological relation.

[split path]

are conductors shaped like the unravelled

[low oracle]

Shaped, no. The armor and cloak are what they wear though.

[split path]

aw

but the conductor in the cogwork core?

like the one with the speaker thing

looks pretty similar to the unravelled

i've also heard the old penitent was a conductor too?

and also the last conductor at choral chambers or smth

so we still don't know the true shape of a conductor?

[low oracle]

I've seen that too, but I doubt it. They come from the nameless town above the cradle, which was caused by Weavers convincing bugs to become pilgrims (bugs from the town).

[edgy nebula]

that's a theory with little to no evidence

[low oracle]

The speaker thing in the cogdancer arena has a Conductor, Architect and Vaultkeeper.

[split path]

wait how do you know the old penitent come from teh nameless town?

[split path]

yea, so i mentioned it bc it looked similar to the unravelled, so that could be the shape of most conductors?

and why does the game have to make conductors so mysterious unlike architects and vaultkeepers

[low oracle]

He says he was "lured below by the whispers" and something along that. This refers to being lured from the nameless town to below, by the whispers of the Weavers.

[split path]

he's a weaver tho

right?

and not necessarily the "nameless town" tho right he could be saying mt fey

or smth on top of the slabs :P

[edgy nebula]

old penitent isnt a weaver

weavers are an all female race

[low oracle]

We don't know how they look, just how their armor and cape looks. Below that they have another black cape.
The conductors we see and hear of are Ballador (dead & alive), the automaton one in the cog arena, a broken helmet at the exit of Pharloom and the Unravelled taken armor. We also hear of Conductor Rominus (I think that's the name) who made the poem at the start of SS.

[split path]

ahh i just checked the wiki

oki

[low oracle]

@split path
The nameless town is the only settlement above. Additionally, he isn't a Weaver, that isn't something even arguable.

[split path]

yea yea the weaver part was kinda bs

:

[split path]

is the "black cape" a common saying or were you saying that's a type of conductor cape

[low oracle]

The Conductor armor has:
-Golden Helmet and Chestpiece (probably connected)
-A White cape attached to the chestpiece (or what it's called)

Ballador dies in Act3, and his corpse somewhat visible. There we can see a black cape beneath the overall I described above.

[split path]

ah ok

[autumn umbra]

that's why I said KINDA her grandmother

all Weavers call each other sisters so gms' tribe seemed to be like a family of sorts

not biological ofc

[low oracle]

I guess.

[finite wind]

Why is karmelita like that when we find her

Like what happened to her and why can't she heal

And why couldn't she govern in that state

[low oracle]

She has grown weak with age, I don't think it is any deeper than that. And being weak means that she has lost control over the army of mind-controlled soldiers.

[eternal timber]

She's just old

[jaunty brook]

When gms sent people out to find other weavers and weaver kin did she bind them to herself when they got to pharloom?

Or just kill em out of spite

[eternal timber]

She used to sing and keep the skarr in line, but since she is old and cant sing, Skarr confuse GMS silk with Karmelita's songs

[eternal timber]

Likely this but its not outrught stated

[jaunty brook]

Aw man

[eternal timber]

She certainly wants Hornet to reach her room and since we don't see corpses, I have to assume GMS at them up

[finite wind]

So she kept a whole army in line because she sang? What about khan? And what happened when she went to sleep? Couldn't she put someone else to sing? And how do we know that they confuse GMS silk with karmelita's song?

[limpid summit]

Her song probably didn’t literally keep the haunting at bay

It was more the unifying nature of Skarr society at the time

Karmelita kept her people independent through song Khann kept his people independent through strong martial rule

[latent turtle]

I got to Phantom and I read spoilers and they are ||Lace's sibling||
||I know they are chronically ill and want to meet their end in battle because of that, but I still feel bad about killing them.|| So, I have a question: what would happen to them canonically after the ending?

[eternal timber]

Snail Shamans claim the Skarr resisted longer than most people the Haunting because Karmelita sang, but eventually she got too weak- As per if she could have put someone else to sing, she probably would have done, if given the chance, I imagine

Gilly also mentions, that of all the groups, the Skarr somehow are the ones that are resisting the Haunting the best, so Karmelita isn't really sleeping, unlike most counterparts

As per Khann, I'm 90% certain he is only stated to have ruled about half of Pharloom, so their borders likely barely intersected much

[spark valve]

the haunting probably wasn't even happening at the time

[eternal timber]

even if you don't kill Phantom (also playing needolin on the mirror does kinda reveals a relationship between those two characters) she's going to languish and wither away- Maybe Lace herselff is the one that does it if you don't do it, but that's headcanon territory there isn't really much to it/it doesn't really affect anything. If no one kills her, she probably remains there managing the waste of the Citadel until she dies.

[stray fog]

https://youtu.be/Ag3dOpVbe-s

This person makes an interesting case for hallownest being on the right of pharloom

[eternal timber]

not only that but like, objectively it's a good thing to stop the Exhaust organ's operation, because it's how all of the Citadel's wastes are sent to Bilewater

[stray fog]

I dont agree with the lifeblood reasoning though

[eternal timber]

There's no proof of it being the cause Bilewater being so shitty, but it certainly isn't very ecofriendly

additionally... she wants one last hurrah of challenge and excitement after spending however long it's been since she was born (spoilers: probably a whole ass time) practically alone in the Mist- She knows she is done for, and kinda is choosing how she wants to go out, so objectively she's more sad if denied that

[latent turtle]

It's so sad😢 When I kill ||Hornet's lesbian girlfriend's homophobic granny|| I will also do it on phantom's behalf

[stray fog]

@velvet trail is this your video?

I like it a lot

You were able to extract a surprising amount of information about the locations of different kingdoms, given how little is told to us in the games

[ruby blade]

wait what

[velvet trail]

Yes it is. Thank you so much ❤️

[latent turtle]

I mean ||grandmother silk||
I just assume idk if I kill her or not (shhh no spoilers)

[ruby blade]

ok no spoilers

[velvet trail]

Don't worry. Even Ccmaci doesn't agree with that part. I just wanted to present ALL of the evidence I had, even the weak evidence.

[velvet trail]

THANK YOU, AAAA! gfnosgnfisgifs

[stray fog]

You got me thinking with how all lifeblood cocoons are on the left part of hallownest 🤔

We'll see in the dlc

[velvet trail]

Hecking yes ✨

[finite wind]

I mean, how did he manage to keep his people from falling to the silk

[gentle aspen]

If you don’t end up killing her she’d probably perish faster than Lace

[eternal timber]

we don't know if he did- for all we know, they were dead by the time the haunting occured, since Silk kinda had to subdue the bug kingdoms present

There's several mentions of their forces being of 'a bygone era'- Which is what leads me to believe their defeat, and the drying of their lands happened before Silk's imprisonment

[eternal timber]

im curious, is there any in particular that gave you the impression of them not falling to the silk?

[finite wind]

Not really, it's just that karmelita managed to keep the silk away for a while so I thought he didn't either. But also the poses we find him and his soldiers in the tower also clearly show that they specifically weren't possessed by the silk, but that just could mean they were the last survivors

[eternal timber]

There's a distinction between the Haunting and Silk's conquest

Karmelita was the only ruler who was able to remain independent to the conquests of GMS, while the Princes of Verdania and Nyleth made deals and agreements regarding their subjugation. The Coral realm, however, might have dried up either during or before GMS got there, becoming the sands of Karak (the Order of Karak dried up with the land as well)

Then once GMS begins to regain her strength (and the Weavers have left or are no longer in a position to counter her), that's when the Haunting and the spread of silk taking hold of bugs occurs

Which is different from Silk's conquest of Pharloom

And that's kinda the thing about Karmelita, her song likely helped the Skarr resist for a while, but she eventually became too weak

Of note are the Mottled Skarr, who somehow appear unnaffected by the Haunting

[muted lantern]

I assume phantom is decayed past the point of repair at this point.

[viscid ridge]

Phantom aswell as Grand Mother Silk is said to be fraying. We can see how the silk that makes up phantoms body start to unravel. In Grand Mother Silks case, my guess is she frayed due to her weakening by the weavers, which would maybe explain the prosthetic limbs she seems to have, but she also doesn't seem to actually run out of silk like her daughters do, so im not sure

Hopefully this point gets expanded in the future, because i think this one plot point would help explain why GMS was capturing weavers.

Or why she needed to bind their power more precisely

[edgy nebula]

she’ll die

her journal entry states she welcomed a death in battle rather than a slow decline

so presumably if you didnt kill her she’d just slowly unravel and die

[plain gazelle]

i mean if you really want to write an Everything's Fine ending you could say hornet sustains phantom with her silk, she just didn't have time to talk something out in game since phantom jumps straight to trying to murder her

[muted lantern]

My favorite phantom survives idea is they join the Grimm troupe and become the troupes organist. Do we know if Grimms troupe members are immortal?

[craggy smelt]

fun

(Troupe should definitely have an organist)

I suppose the troupe members might last as long as they wear their masks - I wonder if one would work with Phantom?

[raven tinsel]

Thia is very interesting
https://youtu.be/Ag3dOpVbe-s?si=QoEz58JoDI7Ocnyu

[craggy smelt]

Ooo, another Ditlev vid... his last one was really good

[rocky bone]

oh i love his mapping out hollow knight video

[marble oasis]

If Grimm isn’t I doubt the Troupe is

[sinful nimbus]

HK is famous for its immortal characters

[foggy fractal]

such as?!!?

[sinful nimbus]

The radiant Godking and his eternal kingdom

[marble oasis]

Immortal as in ageless not unkillable

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah so Pale King

[solar gale]

Always thought pharloom was built over an active volcano

Considering the soot-looking storms in the blasted steps and the abundance of lava.

[muted lantern]

Grimm has to contain the nightmare hearts power within him I imagine that's why he dies not old age.

[marble oasis]

Would that not enliven him

[muted lantern]

Considering he sounds like a lifetime smoker and the power he contains is fire I imagine it more consumes him from within.

[marble oasis]

Terrible vessel design to be consumed by the very thing it was supposed to contain

[muted lantern]

We've seen what being a vessel to a higher being can do to a body. Even if Grimm is willing.

Plus that's kinda the point of the ritual to refresh the host.

Considering Grimm child doesn't grow without fire it seems silly to believe Grimm just dies from old age

[marble oasis]

To be quite honest I doubt Grimm is actually mortal at all

I feel like the Ritual is more to cultivate cumulative power

[muted lantern]

Also it's definitely said that Grimm in the end is burned away

"Dance and die and live forever,
Silent voices shout and sing,
Stand before the Troupe's dark heart,
Burn away the Nightmare King."

I don't think it's farfetched to assume the fire is consuming him slowly even without our help

[viscid ridge]

I doubt Hornet is able to sustain either Lace or Phantom, she says that even small silk constructs require a lot of silk to sustain. My guess is Lace is gonna start fraying like we see with Phantom, because GMS isn't there to keep her alive

[muted lantern]

Yeah I don't think he's mortal, that's why the fire is what destroys the vessel, otherwise it wouldn't need to be replaced constantly.

[marble oasis]

Fire burning him isn’t necessarily indicative of that

I would say “prolong the heart of Grimm” is the most damning line

Not empower

[muted lantern]

Oh also to my earlier point the grimmkin do live forever so it's certainly possible his other servants can

Unless that line is only talking about grimm

I digress

[viscid ridge]

What are you discussing exactly?

[marble oasis]

die and live forever

Yes

They are immortalised in the Troupe

[muted lantern]

Whether Grimms vessel needs to be replaced because the fire consumes him slowly

Or some other reason

[viscid ridge]

Oh

Like how the infection consumes the Hollow Knight?

[muted lantern]

Kinda yeah

Like he needs to be transferred to Grimm child because containing the nightmare hearts power for too long eats away at his body

[viscid ridge]

Thats a cool theory, but i think its just age. As far as it seems Grimm himself isn't immortal. Thats why they need the ritual to pass the heart on to his succesor

[marble oasis]

It’s just kind of weird for Grimm to have a set lifespan to me

[muted lantern]

Is there any text in the original game on the subject.

[marble oasis]

What happens if you don’t find a kingdom in time

[viscid ridge]

It would make sense, but i think we would have seen damage done to his body from the outside

[marble oasis]

What happens if you find a kingdom 10 years after the last one

[muted lantern]

I mean he sounds like a lifelong smoker for starters

[craggy smelt]

i think it's more that the Heart consumes the scarlet fire, and needs to be fueled with more periodically
Grimm suggests that its the heart itself that needs support

Fine craft dear Wyrm, and perfect tool **to prolong the heart of Grimm. **

[marble oasis]

that’s just his voice

Deep and raspy is cool

[viscid ridge]

I think that one can be chopped up to age

Or its just his voice as zorinus daid

[muted lantern]

Anyway the original question was if he could prolong the life of his troupe members.

Like brumm or divine

[muted lantern]

Why replace the vessel at all then?

It is said he's burned away in the end

[viscid ridge]

Its probably the masks that extend their lives and trap them in the dream

[marble oasis]

My theory is it’s cumulative empowering

[muted lantern]

But you think the masks do extend their lives? That's what's being debated iirc

[craggy smelt]

it seems like the vessel is fed with flame, and then the flame gets used up, so you need a new one fueled with more flame

[muted lantern]

Why not keep refueling the old one?

[viscid ridge]

I think so, we see Monomons mask prolong quirrels lifespan it seems. Right after he takes it off he starts to die of age

[craggy smelt]

can they do that?

[muted lantern]

That is a good point

[marble oasis]

Like just continually increasing power level and he needs a new vessel each time to contain it like moulting

[muted lantern]

I don't see why not. It only really makes sense to replace the vessel if the current one has degraded.

[marble oasis]

Actually changed my mind
“Dance and die and live forever”… in the Nightmare realm

[muted lantern]

But as you said earlier it's just to prolong the heart. I imagine this is just how it keeps alive like the radiance being remembered.

[muted lantern]

Changed your mind on which part?

[marble oasis]

The “living forever” being metaphorical of the Troupe

They do live forever in the Dream Realm after their physical bodies are burned

[craggy smelt]

burning through their gathered fuel might constitute degrading

[muted lantern]

The nightmare king is said to be burned away in the end by the ritual. I don't see why he couldn't be effected more slowly by containing the flames

[marble oasis]

Because he’s not in the ritual at that point innit

[muted lantern]

I'm saying that if he can be burned away at all that means he's probably not immune to the power of the nightmare flames. I imagine the ritual is to end him early and fuel a replacement rather than slowly degrading.

[craggy smelt]

the nightmare king seems to almost represent the heart itself, and its bond with the current vessel
destroying it ritualistically represents it moving to the new vessel

[muted lantern]

Also thematically a character who seeks out the flames of ruined kingdoms, who's about things never lasting, would be consumed by his own power.

[muted lantern]

The full line "Dance and die and live forever,
Silent voices shout and sing,
Stand before the Troupe's dark heart,
Burn away the Nightmare King."

It's clearly about the ritual, as I mentioned earlier this line could just be referring to nkg. Since the full quote seems to be talking about him.

The dance and die and live forever could be just referring to him too

[viscid ridge]

I think the dance, die, live forever line refers to the steps of the ritual. It probably refers to the cycle of how the troupe master dances and dies over and over again, which makes the heart and troupe live forever.

[alpine spruce]

really an akward reunion

[stray fog]

And its altitude compared to hallownest

And both, cindril and the nameless town are next to the wastes, even though they are at very different altitudes
This can be explained by your volcano theory

[dreamy onyx]

i think the wastes are just kind of a general term

rather than blasted steps and cindril both being near the surface

also the lava could just be everywhere, maybe the reason we don't see it in hallownest is because it solidifed into the ancient basin

[wet walrus]

Can Hornet fix her?

[muted lantern]

Fix her how

[cursive sinew]

Fix her up she got injured badly when she got beat up by void fuckers

[quasi galleon]

she fluffy so yes

[south flint]

Hello i believe hornet is not a hornet

[velvet trail]

I'm glad you guys like them 😊 ❤️

[wet walrus]

Guys what does the great nailsage sly do with all of that geo?

We know he is the richest individual in all of Hallownest and despite the post apocalypse going on he has places he can spend his geo on albeit very few.

He also retired as a legend to become a vendor so how is he planning to spend his retirement.

[eternal timber]

He just wants to earn money now

Do no question the pursuit of the grind, only praise the achievement of it

[glacial warren]

Hornet would immediately cling to Radiance and embrace the large, fluffy creature.

[fresh badger]

"You may all be one, clan and master"

Haha wouldnt it be funny if the grimmkin are made from the previous incarnations of grimm

[glacial warren]

Technically Grimm himself is actually just pulling a Massive Moss Charger and is just a crowd of Grimmchilds fused together.

He’s a colony of smaller creatures huddling together pretending to be a bigger creature.

[fresh badger]

Not really

The scarlet one is the only real one

Its more transforming + illusions

Dracula bat swarm

[glacial warren]

Well yes but this only occurs when he’s Staggered and takes heavy enough Damage to separate him. And you see all the Grimmchildren zip over to one spot in order to re-assemble into the bigger form.

He is in essence still that tiny Grimmchild at the center, having at some point joined with others in his colony and fused to make a ‘larger’ form he controls from inside the huddle.

[unkempt widget]

Hi

[half horizon]

Alright bro, I disagree, but that's ok, such a small detail won't change the fact that Hornet sees Grandmother Silk as her mother

[wet walrus]

Groal who stole the power of a shaman and can shoot vengeful spirits looks identical to Soul Master who lives on a whole ass massacre.

Aren't shamans and soul twisters similar in terms of magic techniques?

Soul twisters can shoot seeking orbs shamans have vengeful spirits
Soul Master can do a desolate dive however we see the knight acquire descending dark from a crystallised snail shaman

[finite wind]

Hornet is dumb and a hypocrite

[crystal marsh]

where does she say this?

[half horizon]

The boss fight

We don't see her name

We only see the title "Grandmother Silk"

This either implies she is Hornet's biological grandmother or that Hornet sees her as her grandmother

[crystal marsh]

not necessarily in either case?

[heavy gyro]

Its grand mother as in great or supreme mother rather than literally grandmother

[gentle aspen]

you do know there’s a space between grand and mother yes

[wet walrus]

Is Hornet an asshole?

[glacial warren]

Actually it’s Grand Mother Silk in the spelling, not Grandmother.

[rose hollow]

In what context

[sinful nimbus]

YES

-Doesn't warn Zylotol about Lifeblood at all and continues to help him for his nefarious goals after he gets plasmified
-Can kill Karmelita and by extension Far Fields for no reason (If you get her as the fourth heart)
-Writes in her journal that she doesn't feel bad for the child slaves

[sinful nimbus]

Its a pun

It means Grandmother and Grand Mother

Its true that weavers generally considered GMS their mother they locked up First Sinner for saying otherwise

Mask Maker also calls GMS the weavers' mother

[foggy fractal]

it all comes back to slabfly journals...

[gentle aspen]

Wow really

[foggy fractal]

who knows whats going on in TC's heads

[sleek cargo]

E.

[jovial girder]

Remember, an entire sanctum had soul abilities so it’s likely that it wasn’t just the soul master

[jovial girder]

The Grand Mother has a space

[solar gale]

She's not "Grandmother" silk, shes Grand Mother Silk. Big difference.

She's a grand mother of silk, She's not a grandmother of silk

[potent cove]

I'm hornets brother

[finite wind]

I think they locked her more because she was saying they weren't divine which could lead to them losing power

And ig saying you're not divine to beings who feel they are could just generally make them mad

[wet walrus]

• Agrees to not mess with Green Prince
• Invades his grieving mind
• kills him and places his heart as trophy after he tries to expel her

Some people say she simply inherited "no cost too great" grindset from pale king but that can't be true either

In one of the ending she becomes the new god-queen but instead she continues the legacy of gms.

Pale King also valued civilian lives even more than his own children. And his kingdom had actual security. Hornet is just fucking around recklessly.

[sinful nimbus]

If PK raised Hornet she'd behave normally

tf was White Lady teaching her

[wet walrus]

As much as you would expect from a real tree

I just noticed something

During the absrad fight the void goes though godseeker

But it doesn't kill her

Until the protagonist kills absrad and usurps godhome

So in both radiance fights Tk doesn't control all of void rather controls a massive amount of liquid from the void contained in voidheart charm

[fleet sparrow]

She also grew a heart and decided to save Pharloom when she could have just dipped after GMS was defeated by the void

[whole holly]

i want some kind of Lifeblood Memento in sea of sorrows DLC

[sinful nimbus]

Well yeah

The narrative presents her as kind hearted but side content/journal entries repeatedly contradict that because Team Cherry doesn't think through most of their writing a whole lot

[whole holly]

Grand Mother Silk is not as bad or as destructive as Radiance but Radiance was in worse position tbf

i love that they are only two higher beings we fight, they are kind of like only two boss higher beings

NKG doesn't count since it is not same as NMH

[wet walrus]

Rad had no reason to do all that shit though
Like wtf did Unn, Mantis Village, Deeonest even do to her?

[prime mantle]

hornet did nothing wrong

as long as you spare nyleth

real ones know

[whole holly]

i don't think she could hand pick what bugs she could infect, we don't know how it works from her perspective, although there is no denying she is worse than GMS

[wet walrus]

Thats what I would say if she did massacre deepnest instead

[eternal timber]

radoance should have uuuh accepted the l and died

[prime mantle]

radiance did this kinda

[whole holly]

sadly i didn't because i wanted Pollen Heart in Materium

[eternal timber]

honestly here's the actual factual thing is that

[whole holly]

people in power never do, that's kind of theme of the game, even GMS refused to in Act 3 partially to keep Lace alive i guess

[whole holly]

?

[eternal timber]

probably the infection was unintended, but Radiance definatly capitalized on it

[prime mantle]

that's okay i hc that if you get all four hearts you can use the conjoined one to have twelfth architect make you a doomedyaoinator

[whole holly]

infection was most likely negative side effect of her abusing her powers to be remembered, although she was perfectly complicit in that

[wet walrus]

They were literally intentional and all infected bugs were under her hive mind.
Unn's powers were significantly lost after infected mosskin become unable to hear her call
Mantis Brother was offered strength if he accepted the infection leading a civil war in the village. The traitors exiled to Queens Gardens would enforce violent territorianism while threatening White Lady

[eternal timber]

oh 100%

[whole holly]

if she could target only certain people she would target White Lady and Pale King i guess, but that takes more resources and she needed to be remembered, honestly, Mothkin were at blame

[eternal timber]

tbf the narrative also says that Pharloom has 'so little time' before it collapses and yet you are able to complete a whole bunch of side quests

[whole holly]

i don't know if Bugs massively dying was her intention, but she did take advantage of Infection in ways she could, i also think she had no personal vendetta against Unn so it was obviously side effect, White Lady is weird because she literally annexed part of Greenpath and turned into Queen's Gardens, she had no business doing that

[eternal timber]

Honestly Unn might have been on her way out by the time the other two even showed up

[whole holly]

i agree if making Mosskin took energy for her, but she might have depended on mosskin joining her call, for some reason, she seemed desperate

[whole holly]

Unn, Abyss Creature(at least in Hollow Knight) are only ones that did nothing wrong

[wet walrus]

Those are only the ones who never done anything to her.
The list gets uglier. Soul Twisters including Soul Master were literally tricked by radiance into thinking soul was the cure to the infection. Causing thousands of bugs having their souls squeezed off their body. She took advantage of the quarantine in city of tears eventually driving the entire city into madness and cannibalism.

[whole holly]

also it is kind of shame Mothkin abandoned her for Pale King, he likely pulled Moths in thrall, as it is wyrm nature

[whole holly]

Soul Master saw that in Dream, honestly it might have been just regular dream though

[wet walrus]

The betrayal was a turning point entire Hallownest was built upon. From what seer says.

[fleet sparrow]

Not to get philosophical, but is creating life a good or evil thing?
There is a lot of suffering in the world of HK, so it could be argued that creating life was an evil action, despite there being no malicous intent

[wet walrus]

He is literally infected

[whole holly]

but she was somewhat forced to die thanks to Pale King's influence and Mothkin so she in desperation acted against it

[whole holly]

that could have been regular infection, unrelated to his specific dream, or gotten infected afterwards

[prime mantle]

the people that first create them intend to take care of them (gms, radi, unn), shit just happens later

[fleet sparrow]

But by creating them, they are knowingly risking suffering.

If they didnt create them, then they wouldnt have missed out on anything, because they arent there

[prime mantle]

i mean, sure, but they'd also miss out on the love and joy

[wet walrus]

I mean I hardly see PK at fault here. Mosskin didn't abandon Unn. PK didn't intrude the hive mind that ruled over the hive. He is also married to White Lady who is apparently referred as "protector of leaf and root"

[whole holly]

but what she did is evil but it feels like i just want to provide nuance as well, counterarguments don't argue against nuance i am trying to provide instead trying to prove that radiance is evil, even though i don't disagree but i am trying to suggest that position she was put in might have been deliberate

[whole holly]

okay but how is that related or disproves that Pale King pulled bugs in thrall?

[wet walrus]

He indeed does

But not all bugs followed him

Unn's spawns were loyal to him even after Unn became part of PK's domain

Where he ruled by his own law

[fleet sparrow]

They wouldnt, cus ur non-existent, then u wont miss anything

[whole holly]

he still pulled bugs in thrall regardless or not if all followed him, fact it that he did pull bugs in thrall to certain degree

plus Unn was existentially important to Mosskin and fact that Mantis Tribe, Deepnest and Hive was isolationist

[whole holly]

that could be reason it doesn't apply to them, therefore can't be used as argument in favor of Pale King

[wet walrus]

The certain degree is whether bugs accepted him or not

[wet walrus]

Moth tribe were also important for the radiance
They honoured the memory of the dead but not their creator

Really tells something

[whole holly]

sure... is that why his wife casually annexed greenpath?

[whole holly]

not really... since we don't know detains and requires assumptions, it is most likely that pulling bugs into thrall is manipulative

[wet walrus]

I didn't dive much into that. Could you perhaps tell me more about it based on in game lore?

[whole holly]

i don't think it is purely a choice, it is clear that pulling bugs into thrall is not word that emanates religious freedom

[whole holly]

White Lady laid claim to what is now Queen's Gardens, even though it was part of Greenpath before

[wet walrus]

Those bugs mostly had no real intelligence at the time. Pale King gave them sapience and in exchange they worshipped him and recognised him as their god-king

[whole holly]

regular bugs sure but there were sapient bugs that i think he pulled in thrall as well

“Pulled in thrall” describes the act of being drawn or attracted into a condition of thrall—a state where someone becomes completely under another’s influence, control, or fascination. In other words, it means being lured into a situation where you’re effectively captive to someone’s power, charm, or authority.

[whole holly]

Mothkin likely were pulled in thrall, it describes them, and it is inherently malicious from Pale Kings part

[wet walrus]

Tbf greenpath itself was a barren place until Unn dreamed of vegetation and mosskin who would inhabit it. WL is another higher being related to vegetation though she is about soul rather than dreams and essance

[whole holly]

she took land that mosskin and unn's vegetation inhabited, she took their habitat, why are you justifying it?

[wet walrus]

Yeah? That's how you get recognition for an authority.

[random harbor]

Lore Tablet: Greenpath - Near Queen's Gardens

Though once our lands, a pale being lays claim to the caverns ahead.
It may appear benevolent but it does not share our dream.
Be wary to wander that place.

@theplasma used /lore-tablets area: Greenpath name: Near Queen's Gardens

[whole holly]

it is inherently malicious from Pale King's part

[wet walrus]

That's actually pretty pacific way. Such peaceful establishment never happened in human history.

[whole holly]

it was most likely type of manipulation, as Pale King spreads propaganda about his Kingdom, so it is possible that there was lots of propaganda involved, most likely

[whole holly]

almost all the cults from in that way...

[wet walrus]

That's not a cult. He is a god-king. Similar to what pharaohs refer themselves as.

[whole holly]

i mean you are clearly biased in favor of Pale King, it is quite literally in your username, unless you have open mind to changing to perspective, there is no productivity in this conversation

[whole holly]

it is cult, it meets the definition, Cult is
Group controlled by a leader and/or an idea

he has tendency to manipulate others, it is fair to assume that's how he pulled moths into thrall

[wet walrus]

"No blazing kin. Only one light shall shine against the dark. The Wyrm becomes beacon, minds expanded, to yield, to devote. Eternity in promise and charge in progeny cursed".
PK clearly didn't antagonize the radiance on that part. Only after the infection began to spread.
Seer also blames her kin for the radiances wrath. If pk did it though manipulative or unethical means she would blame him not her tribe for hallownest's destruction.

[wet walrus]

That's a joke name

I still haven't forgotten the buzzsaws

[whole holly]

Seer's perspective not mentioning pale king negatively doesn't cancel out or eradicate possibility of him being malicious, he sacrificed children for his rule, it is likely he maliciously spread propaganda to lure mothkin into thrall, Wyrms literally do that

[wet walrus]

That isn't exactly what happened
PK like other wyrms dreamed of an eternal kingdom. But that simply can't be possible. It is the nature's law thate everything has to come to an end. After he foresaw that inevitable ending he turned to the void, the power without unity. He saw it as a power that could deny nature and even time itself. The rest is about sealing the infection

[whole holly]

okay you are spreading propaganda as well, my point is more factual

[wet walrus]

His biggest mistake was his misunderstanding of the nature.

[viscid ridge]

I personally think that the moths turned on the radiance themselves, not anything that had to do with the Pale king. We see he coexisted with atleast 4 societies without having to have them worship him to coexist

[whole holly]

that's categorically wrong, his mistake is that having greed over influence and that having drawbacks he couldn't forsee for some reason

[whole holly]

okay, while i understand that line of reasoning, his tendency to lie to citizens, sacrifice his children, and pulling bugs into thrall is what makes me question it, plus societies in question are all isolationist and territorial as opposed to Mothkin who were pacifists

[wet walrus]

Dude...

[viscid ridge]

Also show him Vespas dialogue

It would strengthen your argument

[whole holly]

i think his desire to change course of nature, and establish new order as opposed to relative balance that existed before him caused demise

[viscid ridge]

To me personally that is mostly on radiance being hellah selfish

[whole holly]

i meant before he established a kingdom that, that Mushroom is likely referring to end of kingdom or infection, most likely both

[wet walrus]

To put it better he couldn't prevent the demise.

[whole holly]

why did he establish kingdom he couldn't prevent demise of, that's irresponsible at minimum

[viscid ridge]

Thats the point

[rustic junco]

Why do we exist when we will die, isnt that irresponsible at minimum?

[whole holly]

establishing new order as opposed to relative balance that existed before him is selfish of him, almost as much as radiance

[whole holly]

to make that analogy requires deep misunderstanding of my point

[viscid ridge]

His new order also had a balance between every other society that lived there. Although both are selfish to a degree, radiance is far worse imo

[whole holly]

if he did see all suffering he would have caused and tried anyways that's downright evil

[rustic junco]

Just cause something is temporary doesnt mean you cant try.

[wet walrus]

"...Wyrms pull bugs into their thrall,
Till ages pass and kingdoms fall,
Caps and shells may fall to dust,
But Mr Mushroom readjusts..."
Creating eternal kingdoms is the shared desire of all wyrms. But that can't be true as vespa put it
"To rail against nature is folly. All things must accept an end."

[viscid ridge]

Pale King atleast cared enough about the bugs he ruled over, that he sacrificed his children to save them.

[rustic junco]

• better having a brain for a bit then nothing ever happens

[whole holly]

if he did see all suffering he would have caused and tried anyways that's downright evil

[wet walrus]

Pk made a long lasting kingdom however his true desire was to make it ever lasting

[viscid ridge]

Radiance is just pure spite

Or more accurately desperate

[whole holly]

that's my point, he foresaw infection and still didn't gaf

[rustic junco]

He saw all the good life people were having that wouldnt exist without him

[wet walrus]

He did. He began to create vessels and seals in which monomon served as his advisor.

[rustic junco]

also queens gardens are white lady thing not PK to blame

[whole holly]

having brain while being infected is conscious torturing experience

[viscid ridge]

Nika...

[rustic junco]

the billion children down the drain...

[whole holly]

right, Pale King was only complicit

[viscid ridge]

Right? 😭

[rustic junco]

hey what he did actually lead to radiance dying for good sooo....

worth it?

[whole holly]

he foresaw that wouldn't be solution anyways, my point is his Foresight confirmed he caused more torturing for good

[rustic junco]

depending on the foresight, he couldve just gotten a "Yeah" answer to the question "Will doing the vessel thing work?"

[wet walrus]

That's why he turned to the void and why he tried to rail against nature in the first place.

[rustic junco]

his foresight could be flawed as fuck

[wet walrus]

He wanted to prevent what was already inevitable

[rustic junco]

cause it's not false if the foresight just told him "Yeah that would work" cause in a way it did

[whole holly]

before him, Radiance and her tribe coexisted relatively peacefully, since Mothkin are peaceful, it is clear that was intent of Radiance while creating Moths

[wet walrus]

He just counted on the void as a force that could counter nature.

And even time

[rustic junco]

Not PK's fault Radiance sucked so much balls moths switched teams.

[whole holly]

i meant that if he knew vessel project would fail

[rustic junco]

... is this MattPat theory?

[wet walrus]

Nope it is a pk dialouge

[whole holly]

how are you guys not getting Pale King was selfish and infanticidal?

[rustic junco]

infanticidal? well he did revive them all with void

[whole holly]

then that wouldn't be foresight, we have no confirmation of his foresight being flawed as fuck as you put it

[whole holly]

void is death, it is what killed the vessels

[wet walrus]

He indeed does infanticide because he isn't selfish 😭

[wet walrus]

They all regret their very being still

[rustic junco]

We never see a direct example of his foresight. We just know he had some kind and clearly he didnt have a completely correct one. Cause if he did he'd just have gone to the royal waterways and beat her ass himself.

[whole holly]

it is selfish to know everything you every try is going to fail even using void and going ahead anyways to have influence and kingdom, that's quite literally evil, careless, apathetic, sociopathic and so on

[whole holly]

i don't think that is it confirmed though, it is mostly speculation

[whole holly]

that's intently causing mass death for influence, which is indeed selfish

[wet walrus]

The point of team cherry giving wyrms foresight is to nail the idea that there is nothing that could have been done. What PK and other wyrms tried to do was against nature. His last hope was void

[whole holly]

it is his personal desire for kingdom and bugs in thrall is inherently selfism

[rustic junco]

Probably felt like it would work via his foresight but he couldnt see exactly what the consequence would be. If he could see the exact consequence, he would have seen that pure vessel imprinted on him and wouldnt be hollow.

[blissful harbor]

his kingdom was doomed to fail when Rad started the zombie apocalypse, the vessels were a response
he didn’t do it for shits and giggles and influence, he did it to save the remaining population of his kingdom

is he selfish for wanting to protect the kingdom he made and the bugs in it?

[wet walrus]

Giving free healthcare isn't selfish

[whole holly]

that's reckless endangerment of entire population

[rustic junco]

Exactly! We here at whiteward dont let our people die! We are wayyyy better.

[whole holly]

never mentioned that, lol, when do we see free healthcare, lol

[rustic junco]

Benches.

[blissful harbor]

how is that free healthcare

it’s a bench

[rustic junco]

Clearly benches have healing properties

[blissful harbor]

gameplay

cause yk
it’s a checkpoint

[rustic junco]

Also hotsprings but that neither here nor there

[whole holly]

he did it for influence, it is in his nature, it is personal desire to have kingdom and bugs to serve him, that's confirmed, nothing says he cared about citizens

[wet walrus]

He didn't endanger anyonein hallownest it is literally the end that is inevitable for anything standing.

[wet walrus]

Hot springs

[viscid ridge]

Remember benches is able to

1. Cure Muckmaggots
2. Cure Lifeblood infection
3. Completely heal any injuries
4. Transmute matter

[whole holly]

which he has cause of knowingly

[whole holly]

that's gameplay

[blissful harbor]

all of which is gameplay

[whole holly]

when did he create artficial hotsprings

[viscid ridge]

Yeah i know its called a joke

[blissful harbor]

it’s a bench, ellina tells us as much there is nothing special about it

[rustic junco]

Humble Crystal Guardian on the bench...

[wet walrus]

Hot springs are literally paid in pharloom soo

[whole holly]

regardless i am right in thinking that his personal desire for kingdom and bugs in thrall is inherently selfish

[viscid ridge]

Not really, the one hotspring we get in game is free

[rustic junco]

For those that somehow get to that point

[wet walrus]

That's called gaining recognition
It is an ideal one too. He gave bugs sapiance in exchange they recognised him as king. He built a flourishing civilisation built by those intelligent bugs.

[whole holly]

benches and hot springs don't cancel that out, that's like saying Hitler was great person because he loved animals and was painter and so on... that's literally your argument

[wet walrus]

The one where you slap kratt or...

[whole holly]

still selfish

[viscid ridge]

Nika...

[whole holly]

what...

[viscid ridge]

The one in the citidel

[wet walrus]

Im a sleep bye

[whole holly]

do you guys hear yourselves? we know he has desire for worship and influence, that's inherently selfish trait you guys are excusing

[blissful harbor]

is it selfish to want influence when youre a literal god? i don’t think you’re thinking of it right

[whole holly]

also mass infanticide instead of avoiding mothkin

[viscid ridge]

Isn't it an instinct he can't control awell?

[blissful harbor]

he didn’t tell the moths to betray Rad

you cannot put that on him

[rustic junco]

the mothkin did it themselves no?

[whole holly]

are you saying that physiology and nature makes you worthy of authority and worship? many evil people thought same

[viscid ridge]

Most likely, but nika thinks Pale King had an evil desire to steal all the moths for himself

[whole holly]

instinct can make being evil

[blissful harbor]

i didn’t realize these people were gods capable of granting intelligence and literal magic

in which case hell maybe so

see where it kinda starts to fall apart?

[viscid ridge]

Same should be aplied to radiance aswell

[rustic junco]

didnt know hitler civilized germany apparently

[whole holly]

it is literally in his nature

[blissful harbor]

how, he pulls common bugs into his thrall

moths had intelligence before him

[whole holly]

pale king spreads propaganda likes him

[robust wagon]

WHAT 😭

[blissful harbor]

he didn’t compel them or anything

[viscid ridge]

Till ages pass and kindoms fall?

[blissful harbor]

they did that all on their own

[whole holly]

it doesn't if you understand it as allegory it is meant to be

[rustic junco]

hey im not the one who compared it first dont blame me

[blissful harbor]

my point is your allegory doesn’t work here in a fantasy setting

[rustic junco]

... yes? Dont all leaders do that?

[blissful harbor]

because arguably
and stay with me here yall

gods do deserve worship

[viscid ridge]

I have the perfect image for this

[rustic junco]

Like all politics is about power. Being a good person is optional to politicians. PK was a politician who did do good on the side.

[whole holly]

it does, Pale King is Pale, Whiteness and Race in human world is also what influenced things

[limpid summit]

Nika this not it 💔

[rustic junco]

Sure politics SHOULD serve the people. But in practice it doesnt.

[whole holly]

no wtf, Evil Gods don't deserve worship

[rustic junco]

Since the beginning of time it doesnt in practice.

[blissful harbor]

how is PK evil?!!

hes literally the best god we have

[rustic junco]

PK doesnt have perfect foresight.

Thats the issue with your arguement

[viscid ridge]

Tbf he sacrificed his own children in an attempt to stop the radiance from literally mind controlling and killing everyone

[limpid summit]

Pulling bugs into their thrall is a biological process for Wyrms it’s like eating or sleeping or having kids

You can’t say PK is ontologically evil

[blissful harbor]

hes evil for thst apparently

youre evil for breathing

[whole holly]

his nature is to pull bugs into thrall and want eternal kingdom for personal reasons for any cost no matter what

[rustic junco]

PK is either a comically stupid and powerhungry or doesnt have perfect foresight

[whole holly]

this is factual, and you can't refute it with unrelated points

[viscid ridge]

PK is 100% not evil. He is flawed yes, but not evil

[limpid summit]

This is true

But you can’t view him through an entirely human lens in this context

Ruling is literally in his blood

[blissful harbor]

it’s not really personal reasons, it’s in his blood literally
but sgain, his kingdom is a legitimately good one, it has flaws sure like msot societies, but it’s still way better than what is out there

like i would get what you’re saying if he was a bad ruler

but hes just not

[viscid ridge]

Base instinct

[limpid summit]

In terms of marginal utility PK is one of the most morally good characters in the game

Maybe TK is better

[blissful harbor]

TK murdering innocent mantises:

[whole holly]

you could make argument that he was in horrible position, which i agree but wanting eternal power is net negative when everything was relatively great before his arrival

[viscid ridge]

Its like getting upset at a lion for killing a deer to eat. Killing is wrong, but its an instinct that the lion cant help.

[limpid summit]

It’s their culture idk they should have been faster

No excuse for Strength FotF Great Slash on youths though

[whole holly]

i can still judge him though

[blissful harbor]

very true

[whole holly]

Unn would be better

[limpid summit]

Unn did less active good

Thus she is not a better person by that metric

[viscid ridge]

Unn and the Pale King were very chill with one another

[limpid summit]

We don’t know if “everything was great” but he didn’t actually make anything worse on purpose

[whole holly]

my point is that Pale King is not necessarily good-intended person

[limpid summit]

Seer entirely blames the moths

[viscid ridge]

The sky is blue and 2+2=4

[whole holly]

truth is combination of these

[limpid summit]

I would honestly disagree

[whole holly]

that doesn't eradicate possibility of him being malicious

[blissful harbor]

eh, his foresight seems to be pretty fine
it’s a common trope, seeing an end yoi cant avoid no matter what

[limpid summit]

His work was all to preserve order for infinite common bugs who would never see his face

[whole holly]

he is self-serving, it is confirmed

[blissful harbor]

pretty sure a mushroom says the exact same thing actually

[rustic junco]

But in a way the vessels thing did end the infection and radiance.

[blissful harbor]

what good to foresee a demise unavoidable or whatever

[whole holly]

only to benefit his personal desire

[rustic junco]

just not in the intended way

[blissful harbor]

yea not the intended way

his kingdom is dead so i’d say that wasn’t an outcome he was hoping for

[whole holly]

not in intended way, pale king was working for different goals

[limpid summit]

Yes it’s a biological function of his that doesn’t mean he was heedless to the benefits of his rule

Eternity in progress

[viscid ridge]

His desire of ruling a kingdom? Oooh so evil 😈

[limpid summit]

He wanted his kingdom to be an eternal haven

He was altruistic

[rustic junco]

I mean if he just knew it'd work in the end then you cant blame him in the way it worked. If he had any better foresight than just like a feeling he would realize PV loved him.

[whole holly]

that can be judged morally, but you could argue Radiance also wanting to be remembered is her function

[blissful harbor]

well Rad would’ve died, she’s justified in her anger for being forgotten
she’s not justified in how she lashes out at innocents with it

[whole holly]

not at all, his nature is to pull bugs into thrall and want eternal kingdom for personal reasons for any cost no matter what is not altrustic towards the victims