sk-lore

[muted lantern]

Emilitia has been around since hallownests fall too

[gilded bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/ok-all-nice-gif-22927671

[muted lantern]

Some species just live longer than others.

[eternal timber]

Ah, right, I forgot that is a thing

[muted lantern]

Weavers are implied to run out of silk eventually a line about their silk running thin at a certain point in time. I imagine they might die of old age without their silk, due to its life extending properties.

[spark valve]

their silk is made from their soul, which is their life force

running out of that sounds bad

[muted lantern]

Tammo, you are more versed in this stuff, the convo started with me asking if it's possible there's a herrah weaver idol or did she flee before the faith was founded.

[gentle aspen]

wdym by weaver idol

[muted lantern]

The relics we collect. The ones of atla, etc

[gentle aspen]

ah

[muted lantern]

Effigy

[gentle aspen]

I don’t think there’d be effigies of her considering she was one of the weavers who left

[muted lantern]

Ig my question is when did they leave

[gentle aspen]

plus she more than made up for that in deepnest

[gentle aspen]

before the citadel was founded and before gms was put to sleep

[spark valve]

Probably fled before the citadel

[muted lantern]

Hmmm

Bummer

It would be cool if there was a herrah effigy in the dlc so hornet could remember her mother's face.

[gentle aspen]

I mean
it’d still be a mask

[muted lantern]

Hornet only remembers herrahs dreamer mask, which is why it's roughly superimposed over her face despite her dialogue in that scene implying she's not actually wearing it. Lemme grab the text

"But to recall these words, in time so far... Will you even remember me, child? Could you?...
...A mother... before the mask... before I lay forever in duty..."

She's describing herself as she is in this moment, as a mother, before the mask.

Asking if hornet could remember her that way

It wouldn't make sense if the dreamer mask was what she couldn't remember, as it's plastered all over the black egg

So why would it be blurry

Imo

[spark valve]

this is kinda couched in symbolism and arguing if she can literally remember her face or what constitutes her face or whatnot is kind of missing the point, it's not about herrah's face specifically it's about remembering her as a person

[gentle aspen]

I mean the thing underneath the dreamer mask would also be the weird bio-mask face thing all the weavers have

Also what tammy said

[muted lantern]

I know, but the before the mask line to me implies she's not wearing the dreamer mask in the moment that memory takes place.

[spark valve]

yeah she probably wasn't

[muted lantern]

That's all I'm arguing. That she wasn't wearing the dreamer mask in that scene, and the reason we see it blurred over her face is because hornet can't remember the face beneath the dreamer mask

[spark valve]

I agree

[muted lantern]

Hence why I think a herrah weaver idol would've been sick if possible, as it would have her original face on it

For hornet to see

Also I hope in the dlc we get a new rarer pharlid variant with horns, that would be a good enough way to make her differences make sense in this continuity

Until then drapemite theory is the best we have and... It's got some holes.

[spark valve]

pharlids do have horns that could believably grow into herrah's the issue isn't that it's just the overall head size

drapemite herrah is very weak

[muted lantern]

Yeah but we know what normal pharlid horns turn into, so a pharlid variant that could look more conceivably like herrah would be good

[gentle aspen]

swiss cheese

[spark valve]

idk how that could be visually communicated in a new pharlid variant

[muted lantern]

Big horned pharlid with a smaller head?

[spark valve]

the least problematic way to account for it imo is to say weavers have different head shapes under that external head

[blissful harbor]

TC should’ve given widow horns

[muted lantern]

Ngl that wouldve been kinda fire

[spark valve]

who's to say she doesn't have some little ones

[muted lantern]

Her headress is pretty smooth on her head

[spark valve]

or a very round one

[blissful harbor]

horns like hornet and herrah
would’ve added a lot more, herrah having a removed weaver mask would’ve brought up so many questions with interesting answers
but no the answer is fuck you

[muted lantern]

But the issue with the horns being under the weaver mask would be it would imply herrah had her face ripped off

Which she seems too sane for

[blissful harbor]

or she took it off herself

to reject pharloom

[spark valve]

widow having it forcibly removed doesn't mean herrah couldn't have had to remove hers for some reason to do the dreamer schtick

[muted lantern]

But it's part of their body, I imagine that painful.

[spark valve]

sure it would hurt

[muted lantern]

Maybe to show her change in identity to queen of deepnests rather than just a leader of weavers? I could get behind that

[spark valve]

but herrah was willing to bind herself to sleep for eternity what's physical pain compared to that

[muted lantern]

Since masks and identities are a big thing

[muted lantern]

I don't think it could work as her mask being removed for the dreamer mask, since she has her horns but we agree not really a dreamer mask in the red memory. Right?

[spark valve]

could've had it removed before

she's soon to go to sleep

[muted lantern]

What I'm saying is since masks are tied to identity maybe she took it off to become herrah the beast, while taking the role of queen of deepnest.

[spark valve]

that's not really a thing

maybe she did it symbolically or whatever

[muted lantern]

Well, masks are tied to identity no? Mask makers dialogue describes hornets mask/face as if it is her identity

[spark valve]

it's a metaphor

[blissful harbor]

the weavers designated her queen
maybe her and hornet are a special kind of weaver with that head shape

[muted lantern]

This is what I mean

That she removed it to show her change in identity

[spark valve]

that doesn't really ultimately resolve anything though

since hornet inherited the horns

[muted lantern]

As I said a horned pharlid is probably our best chance

The issue is her head is smaller right? You said something like that unless I misread. It could just be a pharlid with a smaller head too

[spark valve]

all weavers probably have a little head in there

[muted lantern]

But what you were saying above was the horns had to be her outer mask since that's what hornet inherited right? Or am I misunderstanding

[spark valve]

I'm saying the horns have to be a part of her body since hornet inherited them

could be the inner mask

[muted lantern]

Oh, then I'm confused what you meant by this doesn't resolve anything

[spark valve]

the tension between herrah and widow where one has horns and one doesn't remains

[muted lantern]

The non masked parts of their body are pretty varied from the memory weavers we see

[spark valve]

sure

like I said it's possible weavers have horns or variance under there

[muted lantern]

By this doesn't resolve anything were you referring to the argument I made of why she removed the mask. I'm still a little confused on that.

I thought you were referring to something else hence my confusion

[spark valve]

I mean that coming up with a reason for her to remove the outer one doesn't account for the difference between herrah and other weavers

unless you stipulate that their head shapes are all over the place under the hood

[muted lantern]

Oh, I wasn't trying to, we were talking about that she might have removed her round mask and I was just trying to think of an explanation for why she would do so

[blissful harbor]

they have varying amounts and shapes of body spikes
you could say their potential horns are the same it’s not that big of a stretch

[spark valve]

sure

if you really want to account for what's obviously a retcon that's the best way to do it

[muted lantern]

There's actually more variation than just spikes, lemme grab an image

[blissful harbor]

there is?

[muted lantern]

Look at their midsections, completely different

Most weavers we see in thread memories have the more first sinner like body

iirc

[blissful harbor]

the bigger hip spikes?

[muted lantern]

Her waist is like 3x as wide

The legs are so much farther apart

Widow also has spikes running up her back

[blissful harbor]

i think that’s pretty normal
one is just built bigger
and yuh spikes seem to be the biggest thing

[spark valve]

there are some proportion differences but aside from fs not having visible forelimbs it's not that significant imo

[blissful harbor]

~~if you ask me my crazy head canon is the spikes help them use silk~|

[blissful harbor]

they’re wrapped around her like gms!

[muted lantern]

The hip part is completely different.

[spark valve]

possible

[blissful harbor]

or hugged to her chest ig

[spark valve]

she does have some extra limbs pop out to claw with

[muted lantern]

Her two pairs of legs have a huge space in between them unlike widows

What I'm saying is they vary in more ways than just spikes

[spark valve]

other way around?

[muted lantern]

Sorry I mix their names up constantly

Their boss fights are too similar lol

[spark valve]

worth noting that fs is at an angle in that sprite

[blissful harbor]

i swear it makes the msot sense

she also has a weird rib cage thing that widow doesn’t have
the perfect spot for her crossed arms thst you cant see cuz they’re black

[spark valve]

yup

she's hiding em somehow unless getting ascended made her magically lose some limbs

well

she's certainly hiding them somehow

[blissful harbor]

those are the arms, thst rib cage thingy

[muted lantern]

Does anyone have the fs statue, that's the closest to a front view

[blissful harbor]

ig you could argue it’s the light catching but i disagree

[spark valve]

not great since she's fossilized

[muted lantern]

Also iirc weaver statues have variance beyond spikes

[spark valve]

with the corpses it's mostly spikes pretty sure

[blissful harbor]

they’re like all the same model but the spikes

[muted lantern]

There's also these rounded things

[blissful harbor]

special spikes

handle bars more like

[spark valve]

I was considering those wacky spikes

[muted lantern]

Still what I'm arguing is there enough variation to argue some have horns under there

[blissful harbor]

they are in spike positions

[spark valve]

sure

our sample size for seeing under the weaver outer mask is two and they're both totally different

[muted lantern]

Well it's not certain herrah removed her outer mask, I still think a pharlid variant would work

Unless you mean a different maskless weaver

[blissful harbor]

we see tons of weavers tho, how come we never see another one like that?

[spark valve]

I mean herrah

hornet also inherited her head shape and doesn't have the split to imply that it's an outer shell

[blissful harbor]

i mean in the memories, like why just herrah if it’s just a normal weaver mask variance

[muted lantern]

Rarer type of pharlid, hence why we don't see it base game, what I'm saying is they include like one really rare one in dlc

[muted lantern]

That's a good point actually

[blissful harbor]

that would be cool

[muted lantern]

Also wait, do pharlid divers have the slit

I forget

[blissful harbor]

yes

[muted lantern]

Honestly I barely look at them

[spark valve]

if you really wanted to you could maybe argue pharlid diver horns could grow differently

[blissful harbor]

also like
who’s to say how much of hornets mask is PK

maybe herrah does have a slit

[muted lantern]

You guys would agree that first sinners variation is the result of her being a prototype essentially right?

[blissful harbor]

yea gms fucked up

[muted lantern]

Since her needolin dialogue calls her the first doesn't jt

[blissful harbor]

first try and all that

[spark valve]

first could mean a buncha shit in that context

[blissful harbor]

or first couple either way ya get it

[spark valve]

fs being the first weaver is pretty shaky I wouldn't base much on that

[muted lantern]

She's called first of the first penitent. First of the first children

[blissful harbor]

she’s among the first group made, whether she’s the first first is less important

[spark valve]

is that the first born or the first to be imprisoned in the slab as a sinner

the context of that number calls it into question

[muted lantern]

Considering they are called the first children and the slab logs refer to generation, I think it makes sense to be the generation at least for weavers. There's also a twelfth of the first listed and I doubt there's 12 punished weavers here.

[spark valve]

there being more rebel weavers we don't see seems plenty plausible

[muted lantern]

Also widow calls her self of the first in needolin, sinner calls herself the first. And I don't think it's referring to her sin

[spark valve]

they're both the first children and they're different characters with different thoughts them phrasing it differently doesn't mean it refers to different things

that's also only half of widow's thought

[muted lantern]

Also just thematically the weaver whose cutscene shows the weavers origin makes sense for her to be the first of them, especially with her unfinished looking mask

[spark valve]

'of the first... the last'
it's not just that she's of the first it's that she's the last one left

[spark valve]

I'm not saying she isn't the first I'm sayin it's not super definitive and I'd avoid using it as evidence for stuff when possible

[muted lantern]

Faded...
...Forgotten...
...First...
...Our Silk... Our rage...
...Wait, and hate...
...Wait, and die...

Also with context it sounds like she's describing herself I these lines.

I do feel the difference in phrasing here is intentional

[spark valve]

she is describing herself but that doesn't mean she's saying what you're claiming she's saying

[spark valve]

widow is saying something completely different

[spark valve]

.

she's saying she's the last of the first so yeah there's the preposition

[muted lantern]

I just think saying of the first, is completely different then saying the first.

[spark valve]

it is

because she's saying something different entirely

[muted lantern]

I understand the context difference but it feels relevant.

[spark valve]

it's a completely different statement

[muted lantern]

I mean they are both similarly describing themselves

[spark valve]

widow is saying a whole phrase where the main force of it is not about being first but being the last

[muted lantern]

Widows describing herself as of the first and the last. As in she's one of the first children and the last of them alive

[spark valve]

she's the last of the first

which is why the word 'of' is there

[muted lantern]

I always read it as her meaning she was of the first and the last of the weavers. But I see what you mean.

To be more clear I read it as meaning like she was saying "of the first, and of the last" (not saying that's what she literally said but as to what she means)

But reading it again I agree it probably is more of how you read it

[edgy nebula]

topic?

[muted lantern]

Is first sinner the first weaver

Created

[edgy nebula]

maybe but i dont think there’s much evidence to prove that

i wouldnt be surprised if she was but not surprised if she wasnt

[blissful harbor]

it would be pretty fitting if she was

fucked up mask cause first try

[muted lantern]

For me it's that her mask looks unfinished like a prototype, that she says she's "the first..." When describing herself in needolin dialogue, and that it's specifically her showing the origin of the weavers, specifically choosing to show her creation rather than a generic weaver. to me implying she the first. I understand it's her memory, but I'm saying the choice for it to be her memory that shows the origin of the entire species it implies to me the devs intent is for her to be the first. Cut content character names aside

[spark valve]

her memory shows the origin of the species because that's what she's upset about

[blissful harbor]

her potential being Alta, weaver A
and yk weavers are all about runes and shit, makes sense the first to be made was the one who discovered them

iirc hornet says fs was the one to create tunes

[muted lantern]

But in choosing to show the origin of the species they show her as the example.

[blissful harbor]

or use then i forgot the exact wording

[spark valve]

yeah it's her dream

[edgy nebula]

she could be referring to her being the first penitent, or the first to find out about the weavers not being divine, she could be referring to a million things

[muted lantern]

She was at least originally intended to be the first weaver in some filenames iirc

[blissful harbor]

also ik files names aren’t canon but she’s called the first weaver in the files

damn

[muted lantern]

And just logically it makes sense for the weaver to have the head that looks like a poorly done version of the normal weaver head with jagged cracks down the middle instead of a straight line to be the first draft

Seeing as her mask was like that when she was made, not broken later

[crimson stirrup]

In wilds beyond, a kingdom sleeps,

Where silent shade the pale king keeps.

A tiny ghost with broken nail, Through ruined paths and forgotten trail. No mind to think, no voice to cry, Beneath the watchful, shining eye. With void within, a vessel hollow, The path of shadows you must follow. Through City of Tears and fungal haze,

To mend the dream of ancient days.

[muted lantern]

Thoughts on first sinner is atla theory? There's some compelling evidence but my main hangup is the atla effigy looks nothing like her. It could be that the effigies just all look the same but still

[tawdry flare]

First Sinner is the Last Airbender????

Oh Weavenest Atla

[sinful nimbus]

Weaver effigies also have the same shoulder spikes so they aren't really reflective of the weavers that they're idolizing (Camora seems to be the Mosshome Weaver and Keelal seems to be the Shellwood one)

Bone Bottom effigy

Carving of Camora, Weaver of healing. A prayer is etched upon it.

"Weaver, heal my sons, their fearful hearts, their limbs that shake at the climb to come. We pray, gift but a glimmer of your strength, that when we stand before your divinity, you see bugs shed free of fear."
Mosshome Weaver tablet
Weaver of Pharloom.
By grace you warded. By thread you healed.
For your favour, eternal, we offer our song.

Shellwood effigy

Carving of Keelal, Weaver of the path. A prayer is etched upon it.

"Blessed Weaver, lady of grace, you who see our sin, our frail shells, our voices weak, and still offer your protection. How great your mind to care so much for ones so lowly."
Shellwood Weaver tablet
Sister, spider, husk bound to branch,
Watch over these bugs, passing safe,
Warded by fear,
No longer your meal.

Slab effigy

Carving of Atla, Weaver of time. A prayer is etched upon it.

"By grace of your example, and our history held full in mind, our song is yours, as your name is sacred. Weaver Atla, may you be praised eternal."
First Sinner entry
Ancient Weaver condemned for a transgression lost to time.

(Camora and Keelal have these unique shoulderspikes)

[spark valve]

there's only one weaver effigy asset the sprite doesn't really matter

[sinful nimbus]

I mean yeah King's Idol situation

[verbal kelp]

just figured out that the pharloom symbol is an upside down bass clef
am i dumb for not figuring that out sooner

[muted lantern]

Okay so y'all would generally agree atla is first sinner?

But yeah the stuff you guys said above was the "compelling evidence" I was referring to. I guess I just felt like such a distinctive feature would be present in her idol, but I get it's the same asset like I mentioned in the initial question. I guess I just thought they would make a unique sprite as she looks so different than the average weaver.

[muted lantern]

A what now

[verbal kelp]

a music symbol for sheet music
one of the most important ones

vertically flip pharloom symbol and compare to bass clef...

[unkempt gale]

yoo just got to the cradle

were they hunting down ||weavers||💔

[limpid summit]

Yes

But I would even go further

[edgy nebula]

yes

[unkempt gale]

whats up with that

[edgy nebula]

have you fought the final boss yet

[unkempt gale]

Yeah grandma silk

js got to her

idk if shes the last one

[edgy nebula]

aight thats what i needed to know

she was controlling bugs to hunt down weavers so that she could bind them and regain strength cause she was desperate to wake

[limpid summit]

How, you ask?

[unkempt gale]

too many fucking godlike beings wit mindcontrol in this verse

[silver tundra]

Wait if the Pale King was a Pale being born of a Wyrm, was GMS born out of a Wyrm also? Are Wyrms what creates Pale Beings?

Or is it not clear how Pale Beings are made

[edgy nebula]

it isnt clear how pale beings are made but pk wasnt born from a wyrm

he was the wyrm he just changed forms, hes still the same guy

[silver tundra]

Whaaaaa I didn’t know that that’s interesting

It sounds like Pale Beings are Primordial creatures

I lowkey theorize that Pale Ore is a sort of scale of a pale creature— maybe even Pale King’s Wyrm form

But I’m not sure

[tacit crown]

I personally think that all higher beings are designated by what they control, pale beings being specifically soul related (Pale King, White Lady, GMS), the Dream creatures being Essense related (Grimm, Unn, Radience), and Focused Void controlling void (Shade Lord, The Knight) because the knight showed us that even if a higher being can control the void, they cannot control all of it. similar to how the Pale king cannot control all intelegence etc. (not really here to make a point, moreso to just talk about whats on my mind)

[graceful grail]

There seems to be pale ore in Hallownest only

[edgy nebula]

no

masks in silksong are made from pale ore

[graceful grail]

Yeah, pk could only give some void a will imposed on them by stuffing void in a shell. The shells Mask is what makes the vessels Want to contain the radiance. Otherwise Void seeks only soul, not essence

[graceful grail]

What about in Pharloom, and also, masks are organicly part of most bugs shell

[edgy nebula]

the mask shards you find in pharloom are made from pale ore is what i mean

[graceful grail]

True

[silver tundra]

Yoooo this is a good observation ngl

[graceful grail]

Here are the main known “powers” in the universe.

[marble oasis]

That’s not steel ore that’s pale ore

[tacit crown]

As in the Steel Souls

[marble oasis]

Void is also inherently opposed to Soul and Essence as well as the everbloom

[graceful grail]

Praise the Ore

[marble oasis]

Weaver silk spools are made of it and likely several of their other creations

[graceful grail]

Void is opposed to the everbloom, but it Consumes soul, not “opposed”.

Im not opposed to a Whoper

[silver tundra]

If this were true, it’d still make sense sure the actual ore may come from the shell or scales of a Wyrm

Now as for Pale Oil, maybe it’s made from extracting Silk in some sort of process. I’m not sure how oil is made from irl lol

[graceful grail]

Pale oil is from a wyrm of sorts, one sec ill get the lore

[edgy nebula]

pale oil is from a sylphean slug

[marble oasis]

pale oil is produced by a slug bile gland

[edgy nebula]

a bile gland of a sylphean slug i mean

[silver tundra]

Oooo I see I see

Mb 😭

[graceful grail]

Yeah, slug

[silver tundra]

Not me imagining someone squeezing silk like it’s a wet rag to get oil out of it

[edgy nebula]

i subscribe to the theory of a sylphean slug being henrick

or no

henrick being a sylphean slug

[marble oasis]

Who is henrick

[edgy nebula]

[silver tundra]

Do you guys think we’ll see Eva’s appearance?

[marble oasis]

hmmm

[foggy fractal]

I don't think so

[marble oasis]

he’s got legs though

[foggy fractal]

but who knows

[tacit crown]

but essentially my point is that there is no single higher being that controls all of a specific thing, soul is made by more than one higher being, Essence is used by more than one higher being, the void is controlled by more than one higher being, what makes them a higher being is that they are able to control one of the elements. and god is more of a title given by godseekers I guess (I don't really know about Mushroom, lifeblood, and Steel as those are unknowns at the moment)

[silver tundra]

I hope so I’m really curious

[graceful grail]

Something like this for the head

[edgy nebula]

i mean, the fleas are fleas and theyre fluffy

[graceful grail]

Yeah, who spun GMS do you think??

[silver tundra]

If she isn’t tied to that container Hornet would definitely free her

[marble oasis]

salubra is a slug and she only has arms

[tacit crown]

Nope! but we know she is made of silk, runes, and metal, and from the weavers

[edgy nebula]

i mean, her being a slug and having limbs in general is innaccurate

[silver tundra]

She’s an attempt by the weavers to create some sort of God yeah?

[edgy nebula]

to get past their curse of not being able to have children

[marble oasis]

I’m saying that it’s not based on real life but with regard to internal consistency slugs still don’t have legs here

[graceful grail]

It was an attempt to fix their breeding problem

[marble oasis]

You also have Unn and the lava slugs in deep docks

[silver tundra]

Wait really? I thought weavers could have children it’s just painful asf, but they still did it cuz they have to live on somehow

[silver tundra]

How was creating Eva meant to fix it? :o

[graceful grail]

One sec

[edgy nebula]

they can but it's extremely painful and i wouldn't be surprised if it's possible one of the outcomes is death

it makes sense theyd want to make a child without the pain anyway

[tacit crown]

who spun GMS... not anyone from the nameless town, or pharloom probably. so probably either through the magic of the world that makes pale beings pale and just did it to a grub or wyrm or whatever, or like the weavers she was strung to power by something higher (which could lead to a "it's simulations all the way up" situation). as the weavers are shown to produce silk easily

[graceful grail]

Hornet: I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.
Hornet: Are you too an attempt to defy that cruel constraint?

A flawed attempt. A life spun from rune and shell, sustained only by its cage. My thoughts may mimic a Weavers, but my senses are my own.
Over time, that difference brought only distance between us.

[silver tundra]

Do you think the reason Herrah looks so weird is because of the fact she gave birth withstanding the pain

[marble oasis]

Who are they breeding with within pharloom

[marble oasis]

No her RM design is much more Weaverlike it’s just a retcon

[silver tundra]

So Eva was meant to be the one from there on to birth future Weavers, but it didn’t work?

[silver tundra]

Ah okay

[silver tundra]

I was taking about prior the events of HK like in the Red Memory

[marble oasis]

They made Eva while they were in Pharloom there

Because there wasn’t really anyone to mate with

[marble oasis]

She wasn’t meant to create more children she was just an attempt at creating life

[graceful grail]

Or they altered her body so she could breed, Which would explain the Horns, and the big abdomin

[silver tundra]

Oooooooooh

[tardy compass]

Who is more powerful? radiance or gms? I think they would probably be equal if the radiance was physical.

[silver tundra]

Oh god that’s horrifying

[graceful grail]

There are little weavers in Hallownest Somehow

[silver tundra]

I think the Radiance in its time we fought it VS GMS cuz GMS just woken up after taking a really long nap

[marble oasis]

Again, the big abdomen only exists in HK

[silver tundra]

While the Radiance was pretty mad

[marble oasis]

She’s thin like other weavers in RM

[graceful grail]

I bet the same rune that PK used on THK to make them big is the same one that could have altered herras body.

That could be why both there horns grew like that

[silver tundra]

And also a whole ass Weaver

[edgy nebula]

he couldnt have

[silver tundra]

Wait that’s the reason THK was big?

[graceful grail]

The secret silk rune is hidden in the weaver den

[marble oasis]

That’s a seal of binding dog that’s like the one rune that we know what it does

[graceful grail]

And training and feeding

[marble oasis]

Do not listen to this guy

All we know is it was “trained to prime form”

[graceful grail]

Binding strengthens you, guess why hornet heals by doing it

Nah im trolling

[marble oasis]

Used to contain a powerful force, or to preserve something of great importance.

[silver tundra]

Do you guys have a picture of Herrah in HK vs Silksong? I can’t remember how she looked

[graceful grail]

The one in red memory could just have her lower body hidden under her robes

[marble oasis]

https://www.tumblr.com/mebis-silksong-corner/797127027607109632/act-3-endgame-spoilers

MEBI's silksong corner

ACT 3 ENDGAME SPOILERS

comparing herrah in red memory to herrah in hollow knight...

Tumblr · Oct 11, 2025, 4:19 PM

[tardy compass]

Herrah in normal hk has grey cloth while the silksong herrah has red cloth

[marble oasis]

The folds of the cloth look like there’s nothing under there

Or rather a stick thin body like the Weavers

[silver tundra]

Ayo wtf

[edgy nebula]

not only is the rune made of silk, meaning pk couldnt have made it, we also have no clue if runes are capable of morphing something

not to mention herrah's design was changed in red memory, after she birthed hornet, so she couldnt possibly have grown in that time

also, if her body was indeed changed (including her head, presumably), hornet wouldnt have had such a head shape inherited from her mother, as she didnt have it naturally

[graceful grail]

Maybe she Ate alot before “hibernating”

There are alot of bug remains in the silk cocoon below where herea is

[tardy compass]

I think herrah was sleeping and after some years she got fat because she didnt walk

[spark valve]

runes aren't all made of silk

[marble oasis]

This might be it yeah

[edgy nebula]

7heman used the weaver silk rune as evidence for herrah's body changing

[marble oasis]

Although it’s quite a drastic change for just getting fat

[spark valve]

oh the clearly incomplete prototype for a seal of binding
yeah that's not even worth entertaining lmao

[graceful grail]

The ones in Hallownest are mostly soul ones

[silver tundra]

I wish I could Dream Nail Team Cherry so I could know all HK lore

[marble oasis]

Everyone knows team cherry is not a reliable source

[silver tundra]

But they’re the ones writing it no?

[tardy compass]

Wait what if her 4 front legs are visible and her belly and hind legs are in a hole through the chair so others cant see her belly

[edgy nebula]

https://tenor.com/view/hideo-kojima-mgs-rocket-metal-gear-idkguyidk-gif-6710607785251356347

herrah didnt even fucking have 4 legs in the first game

that's how big the retcon is

she had 2 legs and 6 arms

[tardy compass]

Oh

[marble oasis]

You know what man maybe

[marble oasis]

What are your criteria for differentiating them

[silver tundra]

I wonder what the Pale King was doing during this time

[tardy compass]

so unplayable!!! Imagine spending 7 years and they forgot 2 arms!

[silver tundra]

Silksong was rushed I’m telling you

[edgy nebula]

her legs touch the ground

[marble oasis]

Shitting bricks because he realised PV was not actually hollow probably

[marble oasis]

When does she ever stand

[silver tundra]

[marble oasis]

She is floating in that picture

[silver tundra]

Discord’s Void makes her arms invisible

[tardy compass]

They took her arms and legs 💔

[craggy smelt]

I think she's got them behind her back

[silver tundra]

Btw yall

What do you guys predict will be the conclusion to Void in HK’s story?

[marble oasis]

“Touch the ground”

If you laugh you go to the ABYSS

[edgy nebula]

she's like 2 inches above the ground it's close enough

[marble oasis]

NOT close enough

All her legs are dangling

[edgy nebula]

grrr...

[marble oasis]

And they’re identically shaped here

So it’s not like legs have two segments and arms one segment or whatever

[silver tundra]

Wait I can see the legs if I reply to the message

[edgy nebula]

well then she has SIX legs so youre sTILL WRONG

[craggy smelt]

I don't really think there'll be one
Void's a force in the world
it'd be like there being a conclusion to 'fire'

[marble oasis]

I never said anything about arms or legs

My stance is she has eight limbs

[edgy nebula]

what if the world becomes water

[marble oasis]

This guy hasn’t played dark souls

[edgy nebula]

then which does she use to stand

[marble oasis]

Probably the bottom four like other weavers

[craggy smelt]

water water everywhere so lets all have a drink

[marble oasis]

Or all eight like a beast

[edgy nebula]

except a pair is directly above one so she cant possibly reasonably walk on the four

[marble oasis]

Or the bottom six so her forelimbs are free like the devouts

[craggy smelt]

they should have patched HK to change Herrah's appearance to her Silksong design
that would fix all of this

[edgy nebula]

true

[silver tundra]

Hmmm..

This is a bit random but regarding ACT III’s final boss, I was really hoping for a dual boss fight between Lost GMS and Lost Lace.

I feel like that was a huge missed opportunity

Instead of yknow another lace boss

[marble oasis]

She throws it back like so

[tardy compass]

Those poor little legs carrying her abdomen

[silver tundra]

Did you draw this just now

[marble oasis]

yeah

[craggy smelt]

yeah, wasn't super exciting

just as a concept

[silver tundra]

Fire

[edgy nebula]

fiiinee you win

[silver tundra]

I did love that that boss was super difficult, but I feel like TC had a good grasp on dual boss fights before itd be cool to see a mother and her daughter fighting together

Maaaaaan

[craggy smelt]

I'm sure someone will mod it

[silver tundra]

The more I think about it now I wanna mod it

[craggy smelt]

maybe you will be that someone~!

[silver tundra]

I can kinda code on GoDot

That’s about it

💀

[tardy compass]

What if we had to fight the shade lord, in which we were doomed to loose. If you get to one heart in a specific phase, like the last phase, a cutscene triggers with ghost where he gets the shade lord under control and he eats gms and gives lace and takes you up

[marble oasis]

Weaver limbs are fucking weird man

[edgy nebula]

my guess is the weavers hold them together like those spiders

[marble oasis]

The only one we actually see with the normal Weaver body and 8 limbs is First Sinner

[edgy nebula]

like so

[silver tundra]

I legit thought also that’s what was gonna happen.

[marble oasis]

4 legs

5 legs

[silver tundra]

Also isn’t the Knight the Shade Lord now?

[edgy nebula]

yes

[edgy nebula]

there's a sprite where she has 8 legs

[tardy compass]

Yeah, we see flashes of him and the other vessels being the shade lord

[marble oasis]

I was looking for it

Not that one

[tardy compass]

Ong do they just constantly grow legs and arms

[marble oasis]

That one

[edgy nebula]

yeah

[craggy smelt]

in terms of seeing Void in the future, I think Void will likely be involved in Steel Society/City of Steel content
they seem to have some kind of interest in it

[silver tundra]

Also wait I just got reminded why about that Cursed thing that turns everyone into Stone in that one ending

[tardy compass]

WHERE ARE THOSE EXTRA LEGS COMING FROM

[craggy smelt]

they're normally folded together

like general grievous

[silver tundra]

I legit cannot wait for that expansion

[marble oasis]

clearer image

[silver tundra]

The City of Steel seems so damn cool

They’re all also so dripped out too

[marble oasis]

They must be tucked by her side or something

[tardy compass]

Wait i think the weavers pull a gms and can have extra arms anytime they want

[marble oasis]

because they always use four legs but the upper limbs are invisible

[tardy compass]

O

[marble oasis]

Hey do you guys want to know who the only OTHER people we see with eight limbs are

[craggy smelt]

https://media.tenor.com/6DUgmOYrkqIAAAAM/general-grievous-star-wars.gif

[silver tundra]

Void?

[marble oasis]

Except she has no arms not two arms normally

[silver tundra]

Bros a weaver holy shit?

[tardy compass]

ONG THE POOR LEGS

Also what insect is he supposed to be

[craggy smelt]

same principle - they're there, just folded and tucked up and such

[silver tundra]

Axolotol abomination

I’m not sure

[marble oasis]

yeah i said they were tucked up by her chest

thorax

[edgy nebula]

"yes im a weaver"

[silver tundra]

His name reminds me of an Axolotl

[craggy smelt]

then you were right

[tardy compass]

Axolotl? Isnt this a bug game 💔

[craggy smelt]

in hollow world, everything is bugs

[marble oasis]

It reminds me of xylitol the sweetener

[craggy smelt]

even stuff that usually isn't

[marble oasis]

Or plants!

[craggy smelt]

like birds and frogs

[edgy nebula]

his name always reminded me of tylenol

[silver tundra]

I mean we have mushroom people

And jelly fish

[craggy smelt]

even some of the plants are bugs

[craggy smelt]

the bugs of the sea

[marble oasis]

Oddly though, some of the bugs is plants

[vague whale]

No, that would be crustaceans, which we also have

[marble oasis]

Nope they’re just insects

[edgy nebula]

i would argue we dont

[tardy compass]

So the void too?

[craggy smelt]

crustaceans are the other bugs of the sea

[edgy nebula]

actually yeah no we dont

[craggy smelt]

the fish are also bugs of the sea

[vague whale]

instead of proving me wrong you should pretend I'm predicting Sea of Sorrow

[edgy nebula]

mmmm ok...

[marble oasis]

I hope TC makes up for Fayforn and makes everything a bug except for some great unknowable creature of the deep ocean which is clearly a squid or something

[edgy nebula]

squid bug

[craggy smelt]

sea of sorrow should have Mollusc Druids

and they don't get along with Snail Shamans

[marble oasis]

squg or squig

[edgy nebula]

i want a barnacle boss in sea of sorrow

[tardy compass]

Are the flying enemies Isaac Newtons bug counterparts?

[marble oasis]

You got voltvyrm bro be happy

[vague whale]

agree

[edgy nebula]

ok 😔

[craggy smelt]

oh yeah, barnacles are technically crustaceans, isn't that wild

[edgy nebula]

theyve got like, little shrimp inside of em

[craggy smelt]

yeah, their little feeder tendril things are skinny shrimp legs with frills on them for catching food

[craggy smelt]

people will see some kind of giant underwater centipede and think 'Sea Wyrm'

[marble oasis]

You joke but a sea serpynt would go hard

[craggy smelt]

i hope we do see some giant beasties in the deep, like while we're in the submersible or something

[marble oasis]

Like some kind of markiplier’s iron lung

[dreamy onyx]

my main theory is that we're going to see sea slugs and sea snails in the bay

since coral gorge had the fish

[subtle maple]

maybe even.. barnacles

[muted lantern]

damn i just saw that movie

[velvet bolt]

I hope we get shrimp

[eternal timber]

We will see FIH

[robust wagon]

https://tenor.com/view/pog-gif-14149886028736974766

[tardy compass]

(Insert gif with that one pufferfish eating a carrot)

[quick geyser]

Never realized how weird this lore tablet is….Did green prince really just have this in his home?

[keen vector]

that orange guy in coal tower is close enough

[viscid ridge]

Either its exclusive to the memory, or their birth was so momentous that they had to write it down somewhere

If this was an actual lore tablet, i imagine it was written right after the 2 of them were born or something

[stray fog]

Its in the past tense

About them dancing

[viscid ridge]

Or after they started ruling more like

[quick geyser]

I think it the 3rd person perspective that threw me off, it like someone else wrote it or as if it was some kind of prophecy

[viscid ridge]

Yeah i saw makes more sense

[stray fog]

Didn't they have to prove their "divine right to rule"?

If it was a prophecy, they wouldn't have had to prove that

[viscid ridge]

Im pretty sure its written by their servents or family or something. I doubt the 2 of them would write these tablets themselves.

[quick geyser]

Yeah I think so too

[zinc sparrow]

Has anyone thought of the possibility of moorwing being a crossbreed

[edgy nebula]

between?

[amber flare]

Wasn’t it bred in the memorium and thats why its so huge

[sturdy hedge]

I can imagine why you’d think that, considering the Citadel bred other creatures in the memorium but that’s literally all the proof I can think of

[white glacier]

I thought it was animated corpses, it looks sewn together

It seams half miter

[white glacier]

Mite*

[amber flare]

It’s wearing a mask

It’s like a leather cap

[white glacier]

Oh yes

Craw/mite breed?

[amber flare]

I feel like I read somewhere that Moorwing was used to keep the workers of Greymoor in line, but when its caretakers died, it just went crazy and started killing workers and pilgrims that passed through

[white glacier]

It could just be a big flutter mite

[kindred ingot]

counterpoint to the argument that the Burning Bugs burn silk (this is the Mortician's Needolin dialogue)

[twin dragon]

Their wispfire can burn silk

[edgy nebula]

doesnt really matter cause burning bugs notably use magic fire

[twin dragon]

normal ish fire can't

[edgy nebula]

wispfire as it were

[kindred ingot]

where is this stated?

[twin dragon]

Uhh

The tool burning silk?

the bugs not being haunted

[kindred ingot]

they are haunted

[twin dragon]

they arent

[edgy nebula]

they arent

[kindred ingot]

they are

[edgy nebula]

what’s your evidence

[kindred ingot]

they show the little strings when you use the Needolin

[twin dragon]

where is it stated

[kindred ingot]

that's Haunted behaviour

[twin dragon]

It MUST be an oversight because literally everything points to them not being haunted

Ok then why ze tool burn silk

[kindred ingot]

ok, I might be wrong about them not burning Silk at all. The tool does burn silk, and I think that's an ingredient to make Wisps
BUT, they're Haunted

[kindred ingot]

what is "everything"?

[edgy nebula]

do burning bugs become blackthreaded

[kindred ingot]

no

[twin dragon]

wispfire burning silk and them being tucked away

[edgy nebula]

then they arent haunted canonically probably

[kindred ingot]

is Broodmother haunted?

cuz she can't get Black-Threaded

[kindred ingot]

them being "tucked away" isn't really an argument, and I think they wouldn't be able to burn the silk inside their shells without killing themselves

[twin dragon]

that's kinda

what they plan on doing

their whole shtick

[kindred ingot]

yeah, but they were Haunted before killing themselves

[twin dragon]

It is entirely possible for them to do that while haunted

as haunted bugs ARE conscious

[edgy nebula]

burning bugs probably wouldnt kill themselves if they were haunted

they also only do it after fotf is defeated which is weird

[twin dragon]

to join their leader in oblivion n shit

[twin dragon]

yet they do

[kindred ingot]

that's... an argument in my favor

well, I'm not complaining

[twin dragon]

Im not arguing against it

[kindred ingot]

well, okay then

[viscid ridge]

Its probably the corspe of their leader, kinda like preserving a saint

[vivid kernel]

i finally played silksong a while ago and given how lifeblood seems to be somehow related to dreams (it being in godhome and also the abyss lifeblood room) that radiance infection is just lifeblood that they somehow found a way to infect creatures with through their dreams?

[sturdy hedge]

Uhh idk. We’ll get a lot of more information about lifeblood when sea of sorrow releases since that’s the main theme

[vivid kernel]

oh yeah i know just what im thinking

its just the lifeblood is identical in silksong same sound effects the creatures behave in a similar manner. and idk why radiance being a dream god would suddenly like find some weird way to infect creatures like they did.

[sturdy hedge]

Yeah I do wonder what TC is doing with that lore, considering it’s in both Hallownest and Pharloom

[vivid kernel]

true and i still have no idea how that lifeblood creature would fit in here

[tawdry flare]

lol. We are getting maximum two small bits of lore about lifeblood

[plain gazelle]

there will be one silk memory where someone says "This Lifeblood... it's like some kind of Infection..." and then the rest of the dlc is about xylotol's mom

[viscid ridge]

I doubt, i just think its the same type of phenomena occurring for presumably different higher beings, not that radiance highjacked the lifebloods power.

[vivid kernel]

i also feel like there is a cool contrast within the 2 games. like silksong having memories (past), using a lot of warm colors, the civilization still being alive and all of the endings feeling kind of like a start to something and original hollow knight having dreams (which are kind of like related to future) using cold colors the civilization being dead already and all the endings feeling like a conclusion.

[frosty gate]

Yeah, I think it's really cool. The ending of the game really is a new beginning for many bugs

[sturdy knot]

ah yes, weaver queen, twisted child and snared silk are the end of the world beginning for many bugs

[vivid kernel]

more like under new management

[sturdy knot]

sister of the void is the only ss ending with a positive note

[fleet sparrow]

The act 2 ending one is positive right?

Hornet would be a kinder ruler than GMS

[vivid kernel]

no yeah i agree and that one could be positive yeah i didnt really mean they are all positive

[sturdy knot]

Yes, but hornet would be overpowered by gms’s soul

"Yours is a mind strong and strange. That union could prove dangerous to my identity" is what hornet says when you refuse to bind eva, now imagine that on a larger scale because gms is not only a higher being, but also a pale one.

[amber flare]

I mean, it would presumably be the same as what happens when Hornet binds a crest. She’s taking that creatures “identity” and mixing it with her own in a way. But I feel as since GMS is higher and pale, her “crest” would have a much greater impact over Hornet

[eternal timber]

It'd still be Hornet, but likely with GMS's wish to unite bugs with her silk

[finite wind]

@half horizon hey, completely out of the blue, but in relation to our convo a week ago, first sinner apparently has some nidoleen dialogue sayinf "she called us daughter, she called us divine, she lied" meaning even them don't consider GMS their mother

or at least someone who knows their true origin does it

[sturdy knot]

that is not nedolin, that is some cutscene dialogue after defeating first sinner

[spark valve]

fs being imprisoned for apostasy means that her opinions are not necessarily those of other weavers

[warped topaz]

guys why tf did hornet get mother juggled across hallownest🙏
she went from deepnest to the hive to the white palace🥀

[craggy smelt]

well she was born in Deepnest
she probably went to the Hive because Herrah didn't want Hornet to be raised by her jerk aunts, the other Weavers
then she probably went to White Palace when she was older to see what her dad was about

[warped topaz]

ahhhh i see

[sturdy knot]

well the three areas are in the lower end of hallownest, so it could have been a tram trip apart

[blazing venture]

princess duties

[warped topaz]

or a stag, cause i dont think they were on the brink of extinction at that time

[sturdy knot]

is there a stage station near the hive?

[warped topaz]

kings station i suppose

[sturdy knot]

the lower tram is in the general area that they need to be, and they cost alot of geo to get a pass (something hornet wouldn't have to worry about)

[warped topaz]

well i guess hornet couldve stagged to hidden station after her stay at the hive since no one likes ancient basin

[zinc sparrow]

A drapefly and a mitebeast
Its referred to as a mitebeast by hornet but its torso and wings resemble a drapefly more and they share the diving attack

[zinc sparrow]

its torso and wings resemble a drapefly more than any of the mites we see in-game and the horizontal dive attack also seems to resemble that of a drapefly

[zinc sparrow]

I can't post images but if you look at an image of a drapefly, moorwing,and a fluttermite side by side it kinda becomes obvious

[zinc sparrow]

Yea kinda

[edgy nebula]

what they did was selective breeding

theyre talking about a crossbreed

[keen raven]

this doesnt really

add up

hornet refuses to leave pharloom because she knows gms will just command more citadel minions to go get her

but she insists the haunted are mindless at the same time

...they're clearly not?

[limpid summit]

Minded like thoughtful

She’s like “I thought they were intelligent and autonomous but they were just being manipulated”

[viscid ridge]

Its both, similar to infection in hallownest, the haunting reverts you to your basic purpose, but can be controlled by GMS if she sees fit.

[keen raven]

not really

they don't only perform basic functions

[viscid ridge]

We hear a lot of how hornet mentions enemies seem to still slave away at the tasks they did before the haunting

[keen raven]

signis is giving a lecture to two bugs before his bossfight

theres that one dude in whispering vault's entrance that's reciting a bunch of prayers and shit and if you enter he shouts something and the people listening attack you

and if you kill all his followers only then does he decide to attack

[viscid ridge]

Underworkers still keeping upkeep, the fishermen still fishing, the judges still judging, the dockworkers still gathering flint, skarr still hunting and gaurding their territory, the cogwork workers still expanding and fixing the core etc

[keen raven]

its not a straight up mind purge

though

the skarr arent even aware they're haunted

they think they still hear karmelita

[viscid ridge]

No it never was, as i said, it reduces you to your basic purpose, not completely mind wipes you. Hornet memtions this exact fact in the hunters journel aswell i think

[keen raven]

it forces you to your job

and the more useful you are the more free will you get

as to why widow is able to freely speak to hornet and isnt forced to attack her

(yes widow is haunted)

[viscid ridge]

I dont think thats how that works

[keen raven]

all the higher ranks act more autonomously

last judge says things to hornet before and after the battle

[viscid ridge]

It just makes you mindlessly do you job, we see similarly in Hallownest bugs that had jobs just endlessly did them until they were killed. I think the same is happening to the haunted bugs

[keen raven]

signis and gron call for backup in the middle of the fight

[keen raven]

yeah no they aren't mindless workers

ts is so stupid

i hate "the haunting is just the infection 2"

gms wouldnt want to wipe the kingdom out

she wants control

loyal, immortal workers that work 24/7

there'd be no reason for her to destroy it or reduce the bugs to a vegetative state

and its made even clearer when you find that room in the cradle which has written orders to capture weavers, something the citadel only did under gms' influence

you can even find a choral commandment to capture hornet from one of the fallen envoy's corpses

I doubt mindless thralls would be able to write any of that

[viscid ridge]

As said again they aren't mindless, they are reduced. They endlessly do their jobs without any thought behind it, seemingly purely on instict alone. Only when GMS needs something does she take control of them herself. (Usually to kill Hornet)

"Low level worker lost to Pharloom's haunting. Instinct keeps them at their task, though in much simpler fashion than before."

"Lost in the madness of the Haunting, they still commanded the endless excavation of their caves."

"Once a hunter purely for food, now they hunt unthinking and unending."

"They toiled incessantly for the Citadel, their shells bent and greyed, and now the kingdom's curse means not even death can relieve them."

"All are haunted here, the jailers and the jailed. Do they realise they will never leave this place? Or how long they have stayed already?"

[keen raven]

you're only using hornet's words and writings for this

"without any thought behind it" is basically just mindlessness

[viscid ridge]

If you aren't gonna take the evidence i provided id rather talk to a brick wall

[keen raven]

I have a general theory that the more important one is to gms the less "drone-unthinking worker" they are

as to why pilgrims are seemingly vegetative when haunted and low level workers are less like that
and the citadel people are still intact enough to write and carry out orders

[keen raven]

how am I supposed to counter argue with something from the hunters journal

I provided actual evidence from their actions taken and you just regurgitated a bunch of hornet's words at me

[keen raven]

once again I highly doubt it's instinct alone due to

• the vaultkeeper that starts the gauntlet reciting prayer and shit
• last judge speaking to hornet before and after the battle
• orders being issued and carried out in the citadel's haunted era
• signis being able to give bugs clear instructions on where to mine and what to do with the resources

gng I take the evidence you provided and argue against it and you refuse to respond

"my way or the high way" ahh 🥀

[limpid summit]

You’re both right

Haunting does sort of reduce you as a being like Infection but it’s not as absolute

[crimson patio]

I mean they were just doing whatever they were doing before

And whenever GMS needs them for stuff she’ll inject some ideas into a bug’s brain and have them command others to do it

[limpid summit]

And it’s not like how infected bugs do what they did in life either

GMS’s control is more subtle

[limpid summit]

Yeah likely this

[keen raven]

this dude's acting like they mindlessly repeat the task until aggroed

the needolin alone is enough to prove that wrong

reveals people's thoughts and they're clearly not just "..."

and we know the needolin is one to one with the dreamnail because of mr mushroom having the exact same dream nail dialogue as he does needolin dialogue

[craggy smelt]

intriguing...

I hadn't thought of that, but it makes total sense

[keen raven]

in fact the haunted people have far more complex thoughts than their infected counterparts

[limpid summit]

Needolin ain’t exactly one to one

It apparently is a universal translator like the DN

But powerful bugs like Greyroot can sort of just shrug it off compared to the DN where bugs sort of realize you’re in there but can’t do anything about it

[keen raven]

its still close enough to be a good way to tell between the infection and the haunting

haunted are clearly more sophisticated and intelligent

not only in thoughts but in combat

[craggy smelt]

yeah, the infection destroys higher thought and reduces to base instincts/aggression
while the Haunting seems more to network the afflicted together, binding them to Silk's mind and will

[keen raven]

the only reason non haunted see mindlessness is because they're getting attacked on sight

[craggy smelt]

the infected are also compelled to serve Radiance's will, but they seem to become more bestial and it'll eventually kill them

yeah, a lot of the bugs in Hallownest also didn't really grasp that the infection was more than just sickness or madness
Hunter notices something 'staring out from the eyes of the infected', but couldn't understand just what it was

[keen raven]

and most of the more informed bugs speak of the haunted like an enemy faction and not like a zombie virus

the caretaker especially

"if that choir and their pins come calling"

i also have a theory that the choral chambers ost is diegetic because of this comparison

in act 2 theres voices in the instrumental, in act 3 the voices are completely gone

[craggy smelt]

whooaaa....
fuuucck....

[keen raven]

as if the haunted choir has been consumed completely by the void, but the cogwork core still plays the instrumental

[keen raven]

this clip is the exact same segment of the song, just in two different acts

[craggy smelt]

(I never notice sound stuff like this, it's always so cool though)

[true wadi]

The surface is so confusing

[keen raven]

likely the same surface as the one we see in hk

same tone of blue, same sand, same wind

same platforms

[craggy smelt]

yes, the 'surface'

[true wadi]

Right, but is Mt. Fey the surface?

[craggy smelt]

no

[keen raven]

no

mount fay is cold likely from the influence of the fayforn

[true wadi]

Calling it a mountain is also somewhat strange

[craggy smelt]

its pretty mountainous

got slopes

and peaks

[keen raven]

its considered a mountain for those in pharloom who have lived in the caves their whole lives

[true wadi]

Makes sense

[craggy smelt]

a mountain in a cave still counts as a mountain

I think, I'm not a geologist

[true wadi]

Noted

[half horizon]

She lied about them being divine

[dreamy onyx]

what entry does hunter say this in?

[dreamy onyx]

i wish this was true but i think it can't be since the cogwork core tmk was never fully finished

[keen raven]

It was finished

The last order of the conductors is literally like

Announcing the cogwork core is finished

[dreamy onyx]

yeah but i dont think it ever got to the point of being fully functional

its stated that the halls of the citadel had fallen silent before Hornet showed up

i'd also say GMS waking up shows that its not fully functional but that's a whole other can of worms tbh

[keen raven]

like

thats probably talking about the time before gms revived everyone

the music only starts playing after that

[keen raven]

an artificial tone clearly cant sustain the seal

the conductors didnt realize this

[dreamy onyx]

i think its referring to both the choral chambers and the cogwork core

[keen raven]

what does that have to do with what i said

im saying the whole "citadel fell silent" thing was when everyone was dead

gms revived them all and then the ost started playing

[dreamy onyx]

i misread, my bad

[keen raven]

what if the song being sung by the haunted choir is actually helping gms

higher beings are empowered by worship, right?

[solar badge]

What did beating lost lace really do? I mean she rescued lace and kinda killed gms in the process but it doesnt change much, the void still will attack after that right?

[craggy smelt]

Entombed Husk

Inside these shambling corpses is a bright light that pierces any darkness. I peered inside that light once and saw... something within it shining back. Something terrible.

[dreamy onyx]

no, the void strands dissapear from pharloom

the only reason the void even got into pharloom was because it was essentially coating the threads gms was using to haunt bugs

[dreamy onyx]

I wonder if this implies the Radiance can't be percieved by mortal bugs, aside from maybe moths

[limpid summit]

Bardoon isn’t 100% normal but he’s not a HB or anything

And he gains a good understanding of Rad from resisting her

[lapis flower]

What if Greyroot is the White Lady? WL said she has such a strong urge to breed that she bound herself, but we can see that she's overgrown. Maybe one of her roots stretched out so far that the seal no longer affects it, but it became corrupted and took on a mind of its own.

[high garden]

what happens to the whole kingdom of pharloom after twisted child

[fresh badger]

No

[keen raven]

Isn't that what absolute radiance is stronger

And why radiance in general was so desperate for followers

[fresh badger]

Godseekers use special crested masks that empower their focus to strengthen and link to beings

Radiance is an entity of the dream realm, and Seer says that when dreams are forgotten they're sealed away forever, and its 'the only death that matters'

Thats why the moth tribe choosing to forget Radiance was so significant

The mosskin worshipped Unn and that didnt empower her

[keen raven]

Unn has like 2 seconds of screentime

But yeah ig

The whole empowered by worship thing never made much sense to me

Glad to know it's seemingly radiance exclusive

[finite wind]

Completely unrelated, they called her an apostasy because she said weavers are not divine which would mean that weavers could lose control over pharloom if the other bugs knew

[finite wind]

And being their mother...

[frosty gate]

Ah but the lack of worship weakened her

[fresh badger]

No??

Unn was already ultra distant and eepy while the mosskin were still hers, and the mosskin even started like wilting and mf dying bc they needed to return to her dream

Funny enough with how badly infected the mosskin are, Radiance mightve gotten them before the rest of Hallownest's regions

Its more likely that her dreaming up all of the foliage and inhabitants of greenpath, fog canyon, queens gardens, (and maybe fungal wastes pre-fungal wastes) is what weakened her

[frosty gate]

Distant and eepy doesn't mean weak

She's just like that

Now she is weak

[edgy nebula]

is ts real!?!?!?

[frosty gate]

They're also not wilting, they look the in perfect shape, the infection is just driving them insane

[fresh badger]

Yeah silkeaters have gms silken sight

[fresh badger]

Hidden Unn, we need you now.
We grow tired away from you.
Our leaves are falling.

[frosty gate]

Yes, because the infection is driving them crazy, where in the entire area of Greenpath have you seen anything wiliting. It's a lush paradise

They are even described as "hard to spot among the foliage" because they look just as lush

[fresh badger]

Vro are you really saying they wrote that bc theyre infected

You know the infection that reduces minds to instinct

While also saying theyre in perfect shape when they say theyre wilting

[frosty gate]

Godseeker saying

"Sleeping God, to see thee as thou once existed, with land and dream and devotion, We would give our mind…"
Pretty much imply that the she was not weakened by the making of Dreampath

[vestal oyster]

are the slab flies haunted

[fresh badger]

:thonk: valid, actually

[frosty gate]

Not because they were Infected, the infection drove them to think that their leaves are wilting, the infection doesn't inmidiately render you useless, Moss Prophet literally is preaching about Rad

If that is instinct then well what an instinct

[fresh badger]

Thats...not how its stated to work. Infection isnt insanity

[random harbor]

Bardoon - General - Quiet retreat dialogue

For quiet retreat did I climb up here, away from spitting creatures. Ormmph... Yes. High up. Away from simple minds, lost to light.
Theirs is a different kind of unity. Rejection of the Wyrm's attempt at order.
I resist the light's allure. Union it may offer, but also a mind bereft of thought... To instinct alone a bug is reduced...Hrrm...

@mushspore used /npcs misc name: Bardoon category: General dialogue: Quiet retreat dialogue

[frosty gate]

I don't think they are, but I can't remember if there are strings coming out of them

[frosty gate]

So how do you explain Moss Prophet preaching about the light?

Xero going insane

Soul Master???

The traitor Mantises

[fresh badger]

Moss prophet always preached, infected bugs like the CoT soldiers still follow routines from their instinct

Xero and soul master are less insanity and more like how the infection starts? Early stage?

I mean I guess you could say the mosskin wrote the tablet in the early stage of the infection

Wait this is such a #hk-lore convo

[frosty gate]

No Eyes

Fuck I can keep going

[frosty gate]

Yeah so the infection starts with insanity and eventually it reduces your mind to nothing

[brisk lava]

Well, one creates Silk, the other eats it. They don't have to be related

Many beings can sense things from afar, even if it isn't silk

Shamans, mask maker, fayforn are some examples

[frosty gate]

They do give silk no? When you use it you get your silk refilled, or am i misremembering?

[brisk lava]

Brother, they are literally called silk eaters, they are used to find your silk cocoon

The Silk you get is from your cocoon

There's even an animation of them eating it

Buuuut, they are found in cocoons out in the world, so either they are parasites or they make their own cocoons and later eat them

Like Silk moths

[frosty gate]

Wouldn't they eat the Cocoon's silk, leaving you Silkless?

[brisk lava]

They explode after you use them, so I suppose Hornet lets them find it and bring it to her them she kills the grub and grabs the cocoon before they can eat them

[frosty gate]

Hornet child killer confirmed

Star's gonna love this one

[brisk lava]

Are you aware of the hunter's journal?

Also her default crest is called hunter crest

[brisk lava]

Like father like daughter

[jagged sun]

Hornet is absolutely brutal in there apart from fluffy bugs

[brisk lava]

Also she can literally kill karmelita (knowingly dooming the rest of the surviving ants) for no other reason than experience

[edgy nebula]

shes also famously racist

[brisk lava]

She's absolutely machievelian

[jagged sun]

She's a spider and they're flies, in this case I think it might be basic instinct to hate them

[brisk lava]

Is it racism if she hates them not for being flies but because of how they treated her?

[jagged sun]

That too

[edgy nebula]

not only does she not bring up her kidnapping in their journal entires but the entries are the same if you enter the slab or not

also i think wanting to kill their entire race because of what a small group of them did to her is pretty racist

[brisk lava]

Yeah but she's definitely not using her consciousness to repress it

[jagged sun]

Good point

[edgy nebula]

maybe but it's still poorly written and in bad taste

[brisk lava]

Could be she's just letting off steam on her personal diary of murder, but she absolutely could do it

[jagged sun]

Oh she definitely could

[brisk lava]

Again proving she's no different from the Weavers in being cunning and machievelian

[edgy nebula]

it's also just complete character assassination and completely trashes her views in the first game

[midnight reef]

likely not

[edgy nebula]

"we do not choose our mothers, nor the circumstances we were birthed into"

"foul creature birthed into servitude, their plight elicits no sympathy from me"

[brisk lava]

She's notably cagey in Hallownest, we never get to actually see her character this intimately

[edgy nebula]

beast's den is one of the biggest moments for her character and one of the only parts where she opens up to tk

lying about that is silly

[midnight reef]

shes not lying though

[brisk lava]

People are contradictory, why can't conscious bugs be aswel

[edgy nebula]

because it's terrible for her character

that's essentially retconning her into a racist for no reason and removing one of her most defining character traits

[midnight reef]

every day I check here I increasingly wonder why I stay

[edgy nebula]

the slab hj entries are objectively terrible, in bad taste, and should be changed, i dont get why people try to defend hornet for wanting to kill the slaves

[brisk lava]

Ok, first off, rude. One can say falsehoods without malice, that's called "a mistake". Secondly, yeah she could have changed for the worst in tolerance due to interactions with flies or something between the games but we can't know for sure

[brisk lava]

I'm not defending her, just to clear things up

[edgy nebula]

wasnt supposed to be an attack on you, sorry if it came off that way

i was trying to say hornet lying about it would be silly

[brisk lava]

Again, she could've become worst, that's what people in literature call a "reverse character arc". But I do agree it's kinda weird and came from nowhere

[edgy nebula]

youd expect the flies to do something truly terrible for her to be so evil towards them, but all they do is take away her cloak (which is filled with spines and tools of deadly murder) and lock her up, and being naked in the hk universe isnt even humiliating, multiple characters in the verse are unclothed

[brisk lava]

Not lying, just cognitive dissonance on her part

[edgy nebula]

she also never really hints at anything happening to make her so angry to them before the games, so it's really just a theory

the most likely explanation is that tc simply didnt realize they wrote her to be so evil, which is why i think the entries should be changed

[brisk lava]

A hypothesis, since there's no evidence

[brisk lava]

They were trying to pass the idea that Hornet is a complex and flawed character to me

[midnight reef]

They just captured her, and stripped her of what she still had physically after already being captured not long ago... if the Slab escape wasnt optional, I'd say her being angry with the flies is reasonable

[edgy nebula]

angry is definitely reasonable, but i think wanting to kill them all is way too big a leap for her character

[brisk lava]

She could show empathy just as she could be ruthlessly bigoted for simple disgust

[midnight reef]

certainly

[edgy nebula]

possibly, but i think just making her racist with no redemption for that isnt really a flaw, and is just bad writing on tc's part

[brisk lava]

Just like many other pale beings and their controversial actions

[jagged sun]

To me it seems that she's quite impulsive when she gets annoyed or when she gets promised a reward

Although I do agree with you

[brisk lava]

They could've developed that part of her character more, I agree. Well, there's always dlc for that

[jagged sun]

Oh yeah I forgot about the dlcs

[edgy nebula]

i really dont mind her getting angry in the entries, it's just the blatant racism in bad taste that's the part that urks me, it could do well with being changed and in general it's useless and contradictory to her character so far

[midnight reef]

chances are while we'll see more sides of Hornet in the DLC, whats done story wise in the game is done, and wont be changed significantly

chances are*

the journal entries could use another pass though, yea

[jagged sun]

They might add extra journal entries depending on if you get captured or not

Hopefully they catch themselves

[edgy nebula]

maybe, but i think even the current journal entries could be toned down a bit

[jagged sun]

Yeah

[brisk lava]

I would more say it's an oversight that they just put that out there with no explanation than necessarily bad writing. They could always come back to that in the future

[edgy nebula]

she can get angry but she should at least show some understanding

[midnight reef]

certainly

[brisk lava]

She's notably hot headed when coming to rewards and people invading her space. That could work with a slightly bigoted undertone if handled carefully

[gentle aspen]

You realize that is also bad writing right

[brisk lava]

Maybe a quest by a fly that she begrudgingly agrees to and come to realize her feelings for flies are just another of her pale urges for domination and apathy towards lesser bugs

[gentle aspen]

🤨 but she never has apathy towards lesser bugs outside of this?

[brisk lava]

It's bad writing as it is, yes. But it can be salvaged

[frosty gate]

Oversights count as bad writing

[brisk lava]

She has for non intelligent bugs

[frosty gate]

Everything can be salvaged, even bad writing

[gentle aspen]

she isn’t apathetic towards non sapient bugs either

[edgy nebula]

is the quirrel prequel comic where she calls quirrel a simple bug secretly the foreshadowing of all time? (sarcastic)

[brisk lava]

Exactly, we are in agreement

[brisk lava]

Could be, I find the "bigot turned ally" a pretty poignant arc

[jagged sun]

It would indeed be cool

[brisk lava]

She literally scoffs the imobas for being "coddled"

And she has no qualms about killing non intelligent bugs unless they're fluffy

[edgy nebula]

in the entry she states it as more of a fact than as an insult

[whole holly]

what is the topic you guys

[edgy nebula]

"The poor creature has lived a life too calm and coddled. It would not fare well in the world beyond its walls."

[edgy nebula]

everyone's favorite

slabfly discourse

or in this case a slabfly debate since it's remarkably calm

[jagged sun]

Maybe given by the baby Broodmother after killing the first one

[whole holly]

more like discussion it seems

[jagged sun]

It is surprising how non-aggressive we're being about this

[brisk lava]

She clearly knows they are that way because they are isolated. Even if she feigns impartiality, she has a clear preference towards more combative lower insects

[brisk lava]

I'm doing my part

[jagged sun]

And you're doing it very well

[whole holly]

honestly i hate that hunter's journal entries and i don't think it accurately represents hornet's character, considering she tries to overcome authoritarian worldview that she inherited from being raised by three queens and empathy lacking weavers, and she tries to help everyone and attempts to be fair in unfair world so her dialogue doesn't make sense at all

[brisk lava]

I could've turned this personal right here but I'm simply too humble

[foggy fractal]

TC are bad writers!

[whole holly]

Herrah didn't really instill caste-ist worldview into hornet but Weavers, White Lady and Vespa definitely did

[brisk lava]

But wouldn't you agree it would be much more interesting if she struggled with her pale being urges to do exactly that?

[whole holly]

okay, it is narrative inconsistency

[jagged sun]

But they are definitely not bad writers

[whole holly]

there are no pale being-urges, you maybe be referring to her wyrm and weaver lineage but, her arc being inconsistent and unreliable isn't really justified or her caste-ism

[brisk lava]

"I'll not deny some part of me desires that outcome... Dominance, it seems, is baked deep in my blood, as too, no doubt, for the one up top." -Hornet

[whole holly]

Pale King was definitely empathetic towards kingdom of Hallownest, it is mostly Weavers to try to control, if anything hornet overcoming something and reverting is inconsistent

[frank dove]

I love how every time I come here the convo is about pale beings

Or higher beings

Or pale higher beings

[jagged sun]

They have a lot that's unknown about them

[whole holly]

doesn't make sense for her to be caste-ist against slabflies, her disgust towards them is her individual characteristic that is mostly socially instilled, so i wouldn't say it relates to her desire of domination and control

[frank dove]

I kind of disagree

Not pale at least

Pale is pretty clearly just want dominance over others

[lyric rose]

What is the

CHINESE

[whole holly]

there is still something about Everbloom, plus White Lady and Pale King don't really want to ensure destruction or domination, that's just Grand Mother Silk and Weavers

[lyric rose]

Lore of Silksong like

[jagged sun]

The same bro it's just translated

[whole holly]

also fact that Radiance also wants to dominate despite not being a Pale Being

so that felt like unnecessary comment of hornet

[frank dove]

Uh

[lyric rose]

I mean the bad Chinese from the original release

[frank dove]

They didn't want destruction but they pretty clearly wanted to rule

Considering they ruled

[jagged sun]

The White Lady just wanted as many kids as she could

To me, Pale Higher Beings are Higher Beings with a sort of primal instinct

[whole holly]

it is also weird to set Pale Beings apart from Higher Beings by them wanting domination, that's not even exclusive to them

[frank dove]

Not only higher beings

Pale lurker

[jagged sun]

Or they're just white Higher Beings

[whole holly]

that makes sense, Pale Beast makes sense

[whole holly]

GMS is referred as one

[brisk lava]

Not directly, but having dominance over others without struggle can lead one to be cruel towards the lesser ones

[whole holly]

Pale Lurker isn't Pale Being

[jagged sun]

Pale Lurker is named as such because of its obsession with the Pale Ore it has

[frank dove]

Oh

[whole holly]

i disagree

[frank dove]

Well

rip

Nvm

[brisk lava]

Who's to say she isn't though?

[whole holly]

nothing says she is, there is no reason to assume she is one, especially because she is contrasted against Pale Being, she is referred to as Blazing Kin

[brisk lava]

I do not mean cruel just in active punishment or torture, neglect as well

[whole holly]

"No blazing kin. Only one light shall shine against the dark.
The Wyrm becomes beacon, minds expanded, to yield, to devote.
Eternity in promise and charge in progeny cursed. "

[whole holly]

sure but i still don't think it would tie to her nature, as it is implied to be hornet's social issue and her lack of empathy

[jagged sun]

Wait, if she's kin, that means that she's the sibling or daughter of some other similar creature, right?

[whole holly]

i am not sure

[jagged sun]

Just a theory

[brisk lava]

Only one light could imply they both share the pale light

[maiden meteor]

I think it just refers to their similar nature

[brisk lava]

Dreams are literally made of light, and the PK has a "blazing visage" or smth to that effect

[whole holly]

she is called Blazing Light in other instances by Seer, as King is called Pale Light, they both share Light, although they differ

[whole holly]

do you have quote?

[maiden meteor]

Well obv PK has some degree of control over dreams

[brisk lava]

Not committed to memory rn

[maiden meteor]

He put entire palace into dream realm and also created the Dreamers

[brisk lava]

Please could you clarify?

[jagged sun]

And he managed to turn the dream version of the palace into a giant deathtrap

[maiden meteor]

I think relation to dreams/memories is inherent to all HBs

[brisk lava]

Sealed, and we don't know if it was him or the Weavers helping

[whole holly]

Hornet is cold, because of being raised by Weavers, Vespa and White Lady

[maiden meteor]

Even GMS/Weavers could interact with dream/memory stuff

[frank dove]

She is white

[jagged sun]

Yeah, since Unn made the Mosskin from her dream (presumably the one we see her in in Godhome)

[whole holly]

Oooohhh radiant being, we are blessed. Your rays touch us. Your warmth fills us.

Hallownest is born again, united in your blazing image. Oohhh...

[brisk lava]

So being neglectful is not in character because she's cold and ruthless due to being raised partly by Weavers?

[jagged sun]

Probably

[brisk lava]

Dreams and memories, although similar, are completely separate realms

[whole holly]

yes, as her nature only relates to desire of control, but weaver culture and hive culture is about isolation, striking first and so on

[whole holly]

says who?

[jagged sun]

The memories might be offshoots if dreams

[whole holly]

Moss Prophet dialogue by the way

[whole holly]

i think that as well, seer implies it

[jagged sun]

It's implied that the Green Prince and his partner might not have actually have hunted the Palestag

So it is essentially how they remember it

[whole holly]

what's interesting is that Crystals refract radiance's light, emitting blazing light, also stimulate dreams

[brisk lava]

Weren't the Weavers remorseful about helping GMS destroy many ecosystems due to blindly following her

[whole holly]

Coldshard in pharloom is similar in that it interacts with memories, creatures born from it are mnemonids, retaining and remembering their shape and place, also memory crystal tool that forms from it

[jagged sun]

I've gotta go, see you guys

[brisk lava]

That's a whole discussion we've had here before

[whole holly]

i personally don't believe it

[brisk lava]

That's okay, we can discuss that later

[whole holly]

it is shame we don't see it in materium and document it's traits

[brisk lava]

Have a good one

[jagged sun]

You, too

[whole holly]

goodbye

[brisk lava]

Well, controlling others is a very complex urge, it involves a want of hierarchy, submission, threats to opposition, machievelianism, and many other things

Dominance encompasses a lot of more basic desires

[whole holly]

disgust and genocidal tendencies is very directly is implied to be learned behavior for hornet

[gentle aspen]

that’s not “apathy towards non sapient bugs” that’s calling out someone for not experiencing the world and being coddled