sk-lore

[midnight reef]

the infection only really kicked off because the Radience was forgotten, and she didnt take kindly to that, no?

[wise parcel]

and then the knight came along and after a buncha things

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-gif-23741516

[wise parcel]

the radiance doesnt want to be forgotten after the moth tribe betrayed it

i believe

which is why it started appearing in the minds of the people of hallownest

[spice cedar]

it's a pretty badass concept, creating an entire civilization whose whole culture and customs are in reality serving a very functional purpose of ensuring that a Pale Being is kept asleep all eternity, with them not knowing about it in the slightest.

[muted lantern]

Is it possible there's a weaver idol of herrah or did she leave before the religion was established

[spice cedar]

reminds me of the concept of "Ray Cats" which would be to genetically engineer cats to glow when in the presence of radiation and creating a sort of custom or whatever that should a cat ever glow you should GET OUT of that place

[midnight reef]

we dont really know

Just that Weavers dont exactly reproduce, so chances are that Herrah was around at the time the Weavers were working on constructing the Citidel

[spice cedar]

that's-
Yeah never thought about that, it's really weird that she doesn't have one given the implication that Weavers were more or less very finite in their numbers as they could reproduce for one reason or another, it being until made her deal with the Pale King that their kind finally was able to do so given all the Weaver spawn we see in deepnest

It would be a kinda amazing way of finally seeing what Herrah looks like without the Dreamer mask or at the very least more context as to what she was like in the far past

also you know, I think Hornet deserves that at the very least

[muted lantern]

I suppose my question is, did the weavers who fled do so before or after the religion was established. Did the cindril weavers leave before GMS was put to sleep or after? And was it during the time where pilgrims still worship the weavers.

[midnight reef]

that is kinda an interesting question, is Herrahs Mask the mask she wore before becoming a dreamer?

Hornet was only born after Herrah was commited to becoming a dreamer

[midnight reef]

After- if I had to guess

[muted lantern]

Her red memory dialogue implies she put on the mask before she went to sleep. She refers to herself in that moment saying something along the lines of "will you remember me like this? A mother... Before the mask..." Implying in that scene she's not actually wearing her dreamer mask but hornet can only remember that mask not her real face, hence why it's a blurry impression of that mask on her head when there's no reason hornet wouldn't be able to remember the dreamer mask when it's plastered on statues everywhere.

[midnight reef]

The relgion is something the Weavers almost certainly started to keep the Citidel stocked

[spice cedar]

I think this may be a result of Hornet only being able to remember her mother with the mask, something which she herself says in the Red Memory (which also has said mask of hers flickering implying that she might've not actually worn this in reality, it's just that Hornet trully cannot remember her mother's true face...)

[midnight reef]

Interesting

I didnt remember the Red Memory Dialog like that

[spice cedar]

goddamn it, Hornet meets her Mother's home and yet barely learns much about her mother specifically.. it's kinda deppressive to be honest

[muted lantern]

Basically what I'm saying is the dreamers mask is put over herrah in that scene is not because she's wearing it and hornet can't remember what the dreamer mask looked like, but because the dreamers mask is the only fave she remembers, so it's roughly superimposed over her real face in the memory, if that makes sense

[midnight reef]

I wouldnt be supprised if Herrah wore a mask like the other weavers

[spice cedar]

https://youtu.be/Un1-rPSfe3M?t=157

dangit

but yeah Herrah kinda implies this there in the red memory

[midnight reef]

Weaver masks are all sorts of weird

it seems like outside of the First Sinner- they are made to be worn ontop of their head

Because on the First Sinner it seems to directly be her head

[muted lantern]

I imagine her real face has the horns still since she passed those down to hornet, probably closer to hornets mask but with six eyes and maybe the characteristic slit down the middle.

[muted lantern]

The weaver masks are part of their body it seems, its a part of the pharlid that evolved with them

[midnight reef]

I would like the DLCs for Silksong to get a bit more into Herrahs history

[muted lantern]

Lots of beasts have naturally grown masks as an outer shell

And pharlids have the same masks with the slit down the middle

[midnight reef]

I guess I can see how you'd get from a Pharlid to Herrahs mask shape

[spice cedar]

i thought that worn masks aka artificially made one from mask makers- are not something the Weavers would need? They kinda got intelligence and thus a "face" from Grand Mother Silk's tampering and silkiness? That is to say, i am pretty sure those are directly a part of them and cannot be removed

[muted lantern]

I'm not so sure about herrah she might be a different type of pharlid or something else entirely. The pharlid weavers are the normal looking ones with the round masks. We see first sinner grow into it from a pharlid, she looks different as she was the first weaver and basically a prototype, that's why her mask looks a lot less smoothly grown and jagged.

[midnight reef]

I dont think theres any reason to think Herrah is anything but a pharlid at this time

[spice cedar]

still, I think its safe to say that appearance aside she was absolutely fully functional in being a weaver soo idk she really is a "prototype" in any way that isn't just cosmetic

[midnight reef]

But as seen with the First Sinner- varriation is possible

[muted lantern]

She's just a very strange looking weaver, we know there's different sorts of pharlids like pharlid and pharlid divers. There could be a third one with horns that'll show up in the dlc.

[spice cedar]

and yeah, we have seen no other types of pharlids nor anything implying that Grand Mother Silk for whatever reason chose different kinds of bugs to "uplift" instead of just the one

[midnight reef]

Its very much a "TC designed Herrah first without considering the lore they'd make for Silksong" moment

[spice cedar]

it could be the result of her deal with the pale king, like with the context added by Silksong in regards to the Weaver's natural infertility and all that it feels like their bargain was FAR more than merely Herrah wanting to have a singular child with the Pale King

since- you know, the countless Weaver Kids in deepnest are pretty significant lore-wise

[midnight reef]

Weavers arent infertile, irrc, just the process is extremely painful

[muted lantern]

They all have variations but the masks seem pretty uniform outside of her and herrah. I imagine since first sinner is implied to be the first weaver, her needolin dialogue implies this iirc. I imagine her jagged and incomplete mask is the result of her being the prototype.

[midnight reef]

I think thats part of Herrahs dialouge with Eva

[spice cedar]

or results in beings like EVA who are.. Not exactly all that healthy

[muted lantern]

Sure but that doesn't mean they didn't come up with an retroactive explanation for why she looks different.

[midnight reef]

Certainly

I assume TC has an explanation

It litterally could just be "GMS was feeling a little silly when uplifting the Pharlid that became Herrah"

probably not but

[muted lantern]

I hope there's a third pharlid variant or they confirm drapemite theory, but that one's looser.

[midnight reef]

it'd be odd to uplift a bug without a natural ability to control silk

[spice cedar]

it's kinda important to remember that... Yeah all other Weaver's we've seen have the same "ball" shaped head, there have seemingly been no deviations from that, with even the First Sinner just not being fully closed at the top, Herrah is WEIRDLY enough the sole exception and we do get to see more weavers in Hollow Knight and they too have the same head-shape

[muted lantern]

Pharlids don't use silk

She gave it to them

"cursed with silk"

[midnight reef]

I thought the Divers did, but okay

I havent been in the lore circles long enough XD

excuse the mistakes Im making here

[autumn umbra]

drapemite theory makes no sense bc in the Pharlid entry of the journal Hornet says that their attacks remind them of herself. so she has to be related to them

[muted lantern]

Nah they just jump back up.

[midnight reef]

also, a random question

any lore consensus on what Hornet's Crest of the Hunter represents?

it seems to be a bug of some form, and my first guess after all this is a Pharlid being uplifted

[muted lantern]

It looks like a pharlid head with six eyes a little yeah

[pliant meadow]

Her weaver lineage, I just think so bc of the 6 eyes

[midnight reef]

like, the "horns" get increasingly jagged, and start curving back on themselves

[autumn umbra]

any thoughts on this chat >_<)

also hi

[muted lantern]

But yeah good catch I hadn't even thought of the shape of hunter resembling something before. I always took jt for granted ig.

[midnight reef]

When me and my friend first found the crest evo we assumed it represented the Shade Lord or something XD

which, beyond making zero sense, no??

[autumn umbra]

Void Hornet :0

imagine

[muted lantern]

She also doesn't say things about pharlid divers either, and drapemites have pretty similar attacks to pharlids. The main comparison though is the giant drapemite having very similar horns headdress, and body shape to herrah. As well as having 8 legs in most of its sprites (though ironically not the one they chose for the hj entry

Nonetheless I think it's more likely we just get a horned pharlid that's very rare in the dlc.

[autumn umbra]

I hope so

[autumn umbra]

I get that the attacks can be similar or whatever but it would just be bad design by TC to say smth like that in the journal if it so strongly implied smth that's not true

[fresh badger]

🥀 the headress is the same thing all the dreamers were given, I guess theyre drapemites too

[marsh laurel]

guys I have questions unrelated to gameplay but to hollow knight/silksong

[autumn umbra]

drapemites have an entry

Hornet doesn't care about them

[autumn umbra]

ask away

[marsh laurel]

what's y'all favorite hollow knight/hollow knight silksong ship

[muted lantern]

Man I'm just trying to explain why the theory is popular. I also said it's more likely it's something else. Besides the point of the headress was one of many, not the sole factor.

[autumn umbra]

this prolly belongs to sk discussion XD

[marsh laurel]

k

going to send that there instead

[autumn umbra]

sowy. ur welcome to talk about lore too tho

[muted lantern]

Every time shipping comes up discourse follows and then everyones unhappy

[marsh laurel]

it can't be that bad

[muted lantern]

You have no idea

[marsh laurel]

going to test that

[autumn umbra]

gl

I've never shipped anyone

[muted lantern]

Have fun with that

[wind stratus]

Where

[marsh laurel]

so discussion

[wind stratus]

Ok

[dreamy onyx]

Watch it be revealed that Herrah's horns were just her crown

and that hornet has just been wearing a hat the whole time

Maybe it's just this?

[fresh badger]

I mean in the red memory herrah seems to have a more weaver shape body

Less obese

Its just inconsistent since FS was the first pharlid uplifted to our knowledge?

And all the weavers after followed the round head body plan

Tho theres a cut cutscene showing different early weavers with more variety in final head shape

So its possible Herrah was one of the first ones before GMS dialed in the head roundification

[pearl thunder]

it's also possible herrah changed a bit as she got old

[dreamy onyx]

I mean technically we don't see other weavers

There's widow but she doesn't have a mask

So maybe they have unique masks

[spring merlin]

My theory/headcanon about Herrah looking different is that it’s kinda like how salmon look different in their mating season

But also Herrah means “pregnant woman” in Hebrew so it also might be something related to that

[finite wind]

I think that's the best we can have

Doesn't explain her sudden horns though

I think sth that makes this complicated is that you could argue that team cherry came up with herra's design early on and then came up with the whole weaver stuff, but we know that in lot of early promo art, the dreamers looked like luriens with monomom masks, so herra's design could have even come after they thought of weavers

[sturdy knot]

What if, hornet was created before the weavers and that caused to make herrah look more like hornet then a weaver to give a more obvious hint to who is who’s parent?

From my knowledge hornet showed up quite early in development and weavers were a later idea

And they kept herrah the same so we would know who hornet is talking to in red memory

[crimson patio]

But then why make her look so different from the weavers in beast’s den too

If they had settled on the weavers looking like Herrah when HK was released they should all look kind of similar

Cuz Silksong wasn’t a thing at the time

[sturdy knot]

drapemite

[frosty gate]

I keep saying that whatever happened to Herrah to look different has to do with her giving birth to Hornet

But right now its impossible to know, TC literally wrote themselves into a corner with that one

Unless we see "The Last Weaver" from Hallownest appear in Pharloom

[viscid ridge]

I would not be surprised if the horns of the pharlid translates into herrahs horns, but i also wouldn't be surprised if we get to see a 3rd type of pharlid that looks more like Herrah and Hornet

Also here is a drawing made by bobbitworm that theorizes what Herrahs face looked like based on this mask from Mask Maker

[frosty gate]

Please make Sea of Sorrows happen after the ending please I beg you

So Hornet has to look for another excuse to not leave the place she clearly likes

"Well since I'm here I might aswell look the origins of my mother" type shit

[sturdy knot]

Then we would know more about one of hornets parents

[viscid ridge]

I also hope for a tiny bit of Pale King lore, i know ss is more focused on motherhood, but i lowkenuinly would appreciate any bit of lore regarding Hornet and her dads relationship

Just like a little dream or something like that

I personally doubt it, hes not bad, he just unfortunately had to do some bad things. But the continues mention of his shame makes me feel like he really didn't want to create the vessels.

He seems more like a distant father to Hornet (which i wouldn't find surprising given what happened to his previous children), but i just want clarification about what their relationship was.

[civic lake]

Potentially, wisp thicket is certainly one of the areas of all time

[tawdry flare]

NO!!!!!!!

[civic lake]

Nvm ig

[edgy nebula]

very unlikely

[sturdy knot]

The grim troupe uses nightmare stuff, burning bugs don’t

[spice cedar]

oh damn this actually looks freaking cool and- wait hold on..
It's pretty squashed down, but it DOES look weirdly similar to the weird trilobyte thingy in deepnest, right?

hm maybe not

[gentle aspen]

absolutely horrific

I love it

[edgy nebula]

thanks gang

[true wadi]

Anyone know how Pilgrims got rosaries to begin with?

[amber flare]

is it not just Pharloom’s currency, like how geo was Hallownests

[true wadi]

Right, but pilgrims by their nature can’t have a job

[eternal timber]

Actually, I got an additional question, the Choir in the intro takes hornet from the Sandsea directly into the Citadel (but Hornet escapes and they all fall down)

[amber flare]

considering that you can find many rossary rocks? Around pharloom, it could just be a mineral

[eternal timber]

My question is– Why are there arriving Pilgrims at the bottom, if the entrance is up top

[true wadi]

I know for a fact they aren’t.
“Beads carved from various materials, used as a measure of faith and traded as currency. Each is etched with a fine patterned design.”

[amber flare]

But then why when you break the rocks, you just get perfectly good rosaries, and sometimes even heavy rosaries

[true wadi]

What are you talking about

[eternal timber]

Those are like

Idols

People place their rosaries there as a sign of faith

[royal meteor]

yes

[true wadi]

I wonder if the hanging rosaries are a form of “Share your excess with the less fortunate”

[royal meteor]

hmm maybe it was the covetous pilgrims

[royal meteor]

no

[whole holly]

seriously do we know who deepnest king was? maybe shrine beast was one? since they seem to resemble stalking devout in terms of body proportion

[tawdry flare]

We don't and it doesn't matter

[whole holly]

it does to me, i need to know

[tawdry flare]

That's a shame because it's never getting answered

[whole holly]

true ig

[velvet acorn]

Lore fact : hornet had the time of her live going through bilewater

[whole marsh]

The pilgrims come from within Pharloom. They just come from areas we don’t visit (settlements in the Z-axis). Hornet enters from a tunnel that leads outside of Pharloom. Plus, it’s relatively close to The Citadel, which was their destination. Most characters we meet are local to the kingdom. Off the top of my head, Nuu could arguably be from outside of Pharloom (traveling and taking Invintory of wildlife as she goes). And Shakra, could potentially be from outside, but still very close in proximity. But even then you could argue they’re both from within Pharloom too.

[frosty gate]

Considering that we can see the outside from Far Fields, this is probably the case since Far Fields and Bone Bottom are almost at the same depth I believe

Farfields is lower, my point stands

[finite wind]

I think shakra and garmond are clearly out of pharloom

[edgy nebula]

garmond is from pharloom

his town was destroyed by the haunting and he can be possessed

im not sure about shakra though

[frosty gate]

Garmond is from around, yeah

Shakra said explicitly that she isn't

But she also isn't far

Far enough to not be affected by the Haunting

[whole holly]

Pharloom's Edges i think

[whole holly]

what will Godseeker's in Pharloom be replaced by, i think that is it Steel Hearts for some reason, as they monitor and possibly collect information about entire kingdoms

[eternal timber]

I don't think they are equivalent- We might get an essence user sort of figure for a proper godseeker equivalent, what we do know is that Steel Assasin Sharpe and potentially his allies are coming after Hornet

[whole holly]

i just think that it makes sense for Steel Hearts and Masters to want to attune to Lord of Shades, since Steel masters are similar to Knight with Void Heart, apparently

[viscid ridge]

Or just utilize the shaman song to enter Hornets own memories at a certain spot (i think this is gonna be the most likely, but i would appreciate if wr got the godseekers again)

[edgy nebula]

jinn comments on tk having voidheart because with it they become stronger and are able to gain control, like how the masters control bugs under them

[whole holly]

i mean sure, that makes sense too, but memories can't be manipulated by hornet to form some kind of hall of gods and stuff like that

[viscid ridge]

The masters want to attune to the lord of shades?

[whole holly]

it would make sense for them to, i am just speculating

[whole holly]

i don't think it is abstract meaning of strength but void-relates and completeness-related

[open sedge]

Just asking, you guys do think silksong is a sequel?

[viscid ridge]

Tbf its hornets own memories, so its very likely she can. Just fighting every voss she can remember killing and or fought

[whole holly]

wouldn't make sense with Act 3, for it to be a prequel

[open sedge]

well explain

[viscid ridge]

Definitely a sequal

The ending shows its a follow up

[open sedge]

TWO OPPOSITE OPINIONS MHA HA HA

[stone patrol]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1364718432637026409/1470088792160473130/attachment.gif

[whole holly]

sure but Godhome seems to be very carefully crafted, and Bosses are attuned to their stronger versions

[edgy nebula]

silksong is a sequel

[stone patrol]

Is karmalita basically considered a "mother" of her tribe? since she calls every skarr of her tribe her "children" and other sorts.

[whole holly]

i think so too, otherwise, why would lord of shades be there

[edgy nebula]

yes

[viscid ridge]

Its a dream, pretty sure it can be whatever you want it to be

[open sedge]

we see the knight in void given form/focus (not sure) which happens after hk

oh wait

nvm

[blazing venture]

khann you are the song to my silk

[open sedge]

didnt see the correction

[viscid ridge]

Respectfully... how not? 😅

[edgy nebula]

at first she united the already present skarr tribes, however by the time of the game every pre-karm skarr wouldve died, so theyre all her children

[open sedge]

i didnt see it before the edit? Then saw it after i said smth

[whole holly]

Attuning is very deliberate phenomenon, and i don't think hornet can do that with memories, using Elegy of Deep on herself for Boss Rush would feel cheap if it didn't have substantial lore and outcome

[viscid ridge]

Yeah its like real lufe ant queens that give birth to the whole colony. I also think some of the skarr dialogue mention she is their mother (im not 100% sure though)

[whole holly]

Mottled Skarr are still oppressed

[viscid ridge]

Why?

[blazing venture]

Just got nitro

[stone patrol]

https://klipy.com/gifs/it-is-pointless-pointless

[whole holly]

and great part of godhome was fighting sisters of battle, absolute radiance and alternative fights of the bosses, i don't think hornet would do that with memories, as Elegy of Deep can only access them, and hasn't been shown to attune them

[whole holly]

we haven't seen Elegy of Deep being able to do stuff Godseekers do, that's my concern

[viscid ridge]

Attune to bosses? Its not like the dreamnail was able to do that either

[whole holly]

yeah, that's why i said hornet using Elegy of Deep on herself wouldn't be answer if Elegy of Deep is like Dream Nail

[plain gazelle]

presumably it would be some new character/device/macguffin that hornet discovers that allows her to attune her own memories instead of her just realizing she can cast it on herself

either way i think it's more likely team cherry makes up a whole new faction and/or system for a boss rush

[blissful harbor]

wdym

[lucid sinew]

hey so i was wondering about the memorium in citadel, specifically the note you find:
"Containment fails. Memory lost. Excise outer. Maintain inner."
"Verdanian environment exceeded - Destined to forget"

What does it mean by the environment exceeded? Did actual Verdania exceed or did their recreation of their environemnt exceed containment?

Also side question: do we think the citadel erased verdania on purpose or just as an accident of all the pollution they were pumping out

[limpid summit]

Probably not on purpose

GP implies that the land fell to ruin in his absence

[viscid ridge]

?

[limpid summit]

The environment was exceeded because the Conductors tried replicating it in a controlled area but it grew out of control

[lucid sinew]

Ah, i thought it was the opposite? They tried to replicate it but all the animals died. I guess it makes sense though, all the clovers and lilypads seem fine when we get there

[limpid summit]

Probably found the animals hard to replicate to be fair

Who knows why

[lucid sinew]

Animals are weird, maybe the water PH wasn't right

but wait if the verdania environment was exceeding it's containment, why did that mean that it was destined to be forgotten according to the citadel. Where they just pissed off that the clovers weren't growing right so they condemned the whole thing?

or rather, were growing exactly right, just weren't growing inside the line

oh i gathered lmao

I think I was imagining the citadel as more idiotic in this case rather than actively malicious. Shouldn't have given them doubt lol

[drifting walrus]

These are the same people who made purposefully overgrown versions of the moss grubs and coral husks

Not exactly the best use of the space

And actively detrimental to the idea of “remembering”

[lucid sinew]

mhh, the memorium is fascinating to me, i loved when I encountered the rhino beetle in there when i first cos I had never encountered it before that, so I was walking through the area thinking "oh yeah I know all these far field enemies, wonder if there'll be hokers" and then suddenly a fucking miniboss, and it was okay guess the citadel remembers the far fields differently than i do

crazy

[twilit basalt]

Hi, so I was wondering, are shell shards the same as Geo? In other words, do the bugs of hallownest use the fragments of other bugs' shells as currency?

And does Hornet make her weapons out of what to her is money?

Cos both are kinda crazy things to think

[drifting walrus]

Geo is the fossilised remains of bugs while shell shards are just fragments of the bugs Hornet kills

[twilit basalt]

but they're not always fossilized

even bugs that are recently killed drop them

unless I'm missing something, that means they're not fossilized right?

Also Hornet encounters shell statues, which are fossilized (maybe?)

[drifting walrus]

I think since geo is a currency the bugs are just dropping spare change

[twilit basalt]

ye but even tiktiks and shadow creepers drom them

[drifting walrus]

We see the guy in bone bottom using shell shards to make a statue

[twilit basalt]

ok ye makes sense

but in what way is geo fossilized?

that bit I don't get

[drifting walrus]

It’s like the pilgrim corpses in the marrow possibly

Think coal or oil

[twilit basalt]

ye but even living bugs in hallownest drop geo

like when killed

[drifting walrus]

As I said before

[twilit basalt]

ye but why do bugs that aren't sentient also drop it?

like moss creeps and tiktiks and obbles

[drifting walrus]

And things like tiktiks dropping them is probably for gameplay

[twilit basalt]

as in

it's not lore-consistent ur saying?

[drifting walrus]

Everything has to drop money for the player even if it doesn’t make sense

[twilit basalt]

I'm not convinced, because there are still some enemies in hk that don't drop geo when killed

[drifting walrus]

Because imagine playing through crossroads with no money unless you find a chest or something

[twilit basalt]

ok ye i get it

and also the fact that most arena enemis don't drop geo or rosaries in either game

but that is clearly gameplay related stuff

I can't imagine that all enemies dropping geo in crossroads is completly lore-inaccurate and just to help gameplay

[drifting walrus]

Those usually have one big reward at the end

[twilit basalt]

ye but the individual enemies don't drop

which they typically should

[drifting walrus]

If they did people would most likely farm them instead of actually completing the challenge

[twilit basalt]

i disagree, cos they often times are in the way of obtaining progression

and also that could be fixed by having well-established spots of currency, incentivising players to complete arenas instead of just farming them

but that aside, I don't get geo being fossilized shell shards. I don't see why they're just the same as shell shards

[drifting walrus]

I’m of the opinion that they could have just let geo be its own thing without any explanation but tc decided to care enough to put such details in

[twilit basalt]

yes I agree

but that seems to prove the point that geo and shell shards are the different names that different kingdoms give to the same stuff

[drifting walrus]

While that may be the case shell shards have a distinctly different appearance than geo

[twilit basalt]

I thought about that, and think about it

not all geo looks the same, and not all shell shards look the same

maybe Hallownest took some geo and refined it to make it worth more

and also, it may be that what the bugs see is shards which look more similar than they do to us players

[drifting walrus]

Besides the main currency in pharloom is already established to be rosaries

[twilit basalt]

yes, exactly

which is why they didn't bother to refine shell shards to make them look prettier

but it would explain why bugs from outside Hallownest also know what geo is

[drifting walrus]

I disagree because geo exists in large veins which can be mined

[twilit basalt]

where? wdym=

?

[drifting walrus]

The rocks the knight can break for geo

There’s even a particularly massive one found in the abyss

[twilit basalt]

ye, but they're likely the same as the statues in silksong. Or maybe they're just deposits that have formed over time from accumulation of bug's corpses or smth. Or maybe they are, in fact, fossilized

now that I think about it, fossilized chitin prolly isn't too different to chitin, right?

like the trilobite fossils that ppls find on ancient ocean floors

which means I guess I kinda agree with ur point

[drifting walrus]

Well geo specifically tends to take on a metallic form as it fossilises

[twilit basalt]

metallic?

[fresh badger]

Its shiny not rocky

[twilit basalt]

ok ye makes sense ig

[fresh badger]

I think its worth mentioning the connection between shell shards and the steel city

[twilit basalt]

there's a connection?

Steel city is where they found a half-weaver that had been staked to service right?

[edgy nebula]

yes

[fresh badger]

Growstone: Cold, steely stone with remarkable regrowth capacity.
If shattered into shell shards, it will reform over time.

[twilit basalt]

oh interesting

[edgy nebula]

steely?

[fresh badger]

A small gift for you, pale It... for the thought, complex... rock of the home spear... and of Zi's birth. May it aid your further action in this land.

[twilit basalt]

i haven't gotten around to sk steelsoul so I never saw it

Which brings me to steel soul mode. That feels strange, almost like the Steel masters are controlling the game or smth

[drifting walrus]

There’s a theory the knight and hornet posses foresight inherited from their father the pale king

[twilit basalt]

i mean ye, that's how world sense ability works right?

[drifting walrus]

The waking up at a bench after death is just a failed attempt to progress

[twilit basalt]

Ohh that's neat

but what about the currency loss?

[drifting walrus]

Again gameplay purposes most likely

Otherwise there wouldn’t be any consequences to dying

[twilit basalt]

but idk, it does seem like Hornet mentions having lived multiple lifetimes when talking to the Mask Maker, which implies that she's died multiple times

though that may be a reference to crests tbh

actually no I don't think it is

[drifting walrus]

That’s more Hornet being essentially immortal as a pale being

Well half one

[twilit basalt]

for all the talk of pale beings immortal, we sure do see them die a lot huh

[drifting walrus]

Fr

[drifting walrus]

And it’s all because of their ties to the void

[eternal timber]

honestly i think we have too little, too few info to make any claims on what the Masters want or even do- I do imagine that conflict being possible, though

however, let's be clear it's more the knight that's similar to the Masters, not the other way around- They clearly have been here for a while if, for some reason, they have Pale Beings answering to them.

Honestly, here's just a wild toss, because nothing can go wrong with speculation but the Masters might deadass be wyrms, seeing how the only other character we see adept with steel and void is PK

Just tossing shit out, not making any hard claims

[gentle aspen]

theory isn’t really true btw

[drifting walrus]

That’s why I said theory

[lone folio]

Gives the same vibes as "it was all a dream" theories

[gentle aspen]

Well no
Theories tend to have actual merit and just aren’t confirmed
This one just isn’t true

All the instances where people claim foresight is just respawning aside from like…one example off the top of my head

[drifting walrus]

Well the wyrms have foresight and the pk is one so I think it’s not the biggest leap to assume his descendants inherited that ability

Also I never said that it was like “respawning”

[gentle aspen]

yes, wyrms have foresight. His children, who aren’t wyrms, do not.

[drifting walrus]

More that it was them waking up from a failed attempt

[gentle aspen]

and I brought up respawning because that’s the only example ever posited

respawning isn’t canon and isn’t just foresight, it’s a tangible being/object left in the world and it directly affects their capacity to hold soul and the money they carry

it’s just video games being video games and having lore implications the act of respawning isn’t canonical or some form of foresight

[edgy nebula]

it wouldnt really be foresight anyway because it doesnt come true

[lone folio]

It would litterly just be dreaming

[gentle aspen]

I mean
It’s like a future vision a la Shulk from Xenoblade Chronicles that’s like the least of the issues with the logic

[drifting walrus]

From a gameplay standpoint yes it is like respawning but if it is the case then it would be like waking up from a bad dream

[gentle aspen]

a bad dream that literally affects their body?

and something that’s never addressed by either character or implied by the narrative to be an ability his children have?

[eternal timber]

However, I think, Jiji is the more interesting character seeing how she mentions that her task is to clear regrets, because seemingly too much accumulated stain = trouble, which would make the following declarations interesting:

• That the void and regret stains are rather similar (which, might mean the void is like... uber accumulation of these dark stains?)
• The feat of the Voidheart and accepting one's regrets would be like, surprise even the masters. We know that the Knight literally has to face it's tragic birth and past to overcome it.
• I think the Masters will definetly have an issue with the Shade Lord/Lord of Shades, but not out of a desire of void control, because, as we see in dream no more, the Lord of Shades is like... the Shade after having gotten the Void Heart. I think, if Jiji is accurate on the fact that a stain is rather similar to the void, and that her purpose is to clear the land of stains, the Masters seemingly take more a role of wanting to avoid too much stain accumulation (potentially a catastrophe of sorts???), and certainly would have ample reasoning for wanting to clear an active stain?

I'm talking my ass off here just juggling

as per the foresight, it's not really supported by text of basis so- it's a headcanon at best

[gentle aspen]

I mean even with jiji’s dialogue she notes the knight’s circumstances are different from the norm

[gentle aspen]

They combat their “regrets”

pretty sure jiji usually spawns something and the person talks to them

[random harbor]

Jiji - Service - Listening after defeating Shade

Ah, you seem to have made peace with your regrets in a most novel, and dare I say brutal, fashion. What a joy to behold. Farewell for now. I will think of you as I savour my meal.

@kingoclowns used /npcs merchants name: Jiji category: Service dialogue: Listening after defeating Shade

[edgy nebula]

my take has always been that jiji summons regrets, and the shade is the form of regret the knight gives off when they die

we know regrets literally exist cause hornet has them

[gentle aspen]

most likely yes

but as of silksong it isn’t a stretch to say she can manipulate void in general

[drifting walrus]

Also is jiji to jinn as the one who makes the summoned saviour to the overseer in sk?

[gentle aspen]

I think the parallel is there but it isn’t so in universe

I believe the overseer is meant to be under Zi whilst Jinn and Jiji seem to be friends

Zi and Jinn also have different monikers

soul/seer and jinn was made for trading purposes

[eternal timber]

what off the idea of the void being the accumulation of a lot of regrets of bugs? The idea of draining hope, black spots, are rather reminiscent of the former

[eternal timber]

they seem to have different roles

[drifting walrus]

I hope they expand more on the relation between the rotten eggs and the seers

[edgy nebula]

i think jiji just eats them cause she thinks theyre good

[eternal timber]

yeah

[drifting walrus]

But can’t you also trade them jinn?

[eternal timber]

just buys them for Jiji

[edgy nebula]

jinn gives them to jiji

[drifting walrus]

I didn’t think of that

[eternal timber]

well it's not stated it's Jiji but it's most likely Jiji, it seems less that there's a connection and more that Jiji is a bit of a freak

[random harbor]

Jinn - General - Accepting first trade

...Gift is... horrible gift. Digusting...
But Jinn knows one who appreciates...Friend of Jinn. Eats nasties. Loves nasties. Shall accept. Shall provide.
Shinies for tiny It... Good to give Shinies. Less burden for Jinn.

@kingoclowns used /npcs merchants name: Jinn category: General dialogue: Accepting first trade

[drifting walrus]

Tbh I never did steel soul

[edgy nebula]

jiji eats all of the eggs cause she's a greedy bum

[drifting walrus]

They’d probably be good friends with the guy in the waterways

[gentle aspen]

tuk

[muted lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-cat-meme-black-cat-cattok-cat-tiktok-gif-16975015739671408900

Does anyone have any new ideas on what compression is?

[eternal timber]

aaaaah I wish

[edgy nebula]

first thing that came to mind when compression was brought up was like

a bug's soul being compressed into one of the gems on a steelheart's chest, and then being used to power the automaton

but in hindsight it probably is something different

[muted lantern]

also, like, did anyone notice verdania doesnt use silkflies for light?

[edgy nebula]

i never noticed that

[muted lantern]

when you break them its just little orbs

[edgy nebula]

karak uses glowing bubbles for light so it's possible the memories were before silkflies were popularized

[gentle aspen]

Makes sense

citadel would not be giving their bumass any silkflies

[eternal timber]

i think it's not going to be a bug turned into a power source, because we already have the silkflies

[muted lantern]

does past skarr tribe use them?

[edgy nebula]

uuuh lemme check

[eternal timber]

and team cherry diversifies

[eternal timber]

i don't think so, actually

[muted lantern]

Yeah but even their enemies use silkflies, pretty sure they are present in bilewater, unless im misremembering

[edgy nebula]

yes

[gentle aspen]

I would believe the stilkin stole them

I would not believe the fraudulent Verdanians would do the same

[eternal timber]

also some higher beings seemingly serve the masters which is interesting

[muted lantern]

Also i just noticed something interesting its gonna be real hard to get a screenshot though gimme a sec

[eternal timber]

thinking about it steel might like

based on how TC seems to write these concepts

but steel might, for some reason or another ward regret

or the stains rather

[muted lantern]

So, i think some verdanian wildlife might have survived in moss grotto, look at the little background fly and compare it to the foreground bug. they look like the same creature. These little versions also are present in moss grotto.

[eternal timber]

hthough steel is not a pure metal, but a mixture hmmmmm

[muted lantern]

their bodies are almost exactly the same, with slight differences due to size most likely

[edgy nebula]

i wouldnt be surprised, but at the same time it's never explained

[muted lantern]

They just look nigh exactly the same

they gotta be related somehow

[fresh badger]

Yeah verdania moss grotto have a lot of crossover since they were side by side in old maps

Memorium, which has its layout based on Pharloom's layout, also has Verdania adjacent to Moss Grotto

The mossmir eggs/cocoons are also extremely similar to the kindanir eggs/cocoons

[finite wind]

that enemy is a scrapped version of an hk bug

and it probably didn't fit moss grotto since it's not mossy

[swift raptor]

why do they like bells so much

i havent played that far into the game soim not sure

[craggy smelt]

making music is important in this kingdom

[swift raptor]

ok

[muted lantern]

Can green prince only summon his stand in the dream or can he do it irl too. i assume its the former but wanted to hear others thoughts.

[drifting walrus]

He’d probably have that shit on all the time if he could

Schizophrenia his ass

[craggy smelt]

gotta be a memory-only thing

[muted lantern]

What would its name be if it was his stand

this question makes no sense if you havent watched jojos i just realized

stands are usually named after bands or songs.

[craggy smelt]

Greenday

that might be problematic in Holloworld

[muted lantern]

Amazing but sadly that one already exists

[craggy smelt]

then there's no hope

[marble oasis]

Crimson and Clover obviously

[mint stratus]

I know these all may be hornets, but d’y’all think it could be specific to the weavers of deepnest from them combining the local nail with the pins of their homeland to create something unique

It could be a weaver thing in general but we don’t see any in silksong as far as I’m aware

[muted lantern]

Wait this was in the game? i thought it was cut?

[marble oasis]

FS has proper needles

They don’t look like those but they do have a proper eye

[mint stratus]

Then perhaps the needle existed but got iterated on by the weavers that moved to deepnest to more closely resemble nails?

[marble oasis]

yeah quite likely

[mint stratus]

Maybe? It’s been awhile

[zenith copper]

is every boss controlled by mother silk

[craggy smelt]

nah

Bell Beast for one, we break them loose before that happens

there's others I'm sure (Old Hearts fs)

Lace wouldn't be, technically - she's made of Silk's threads, but they aren't haunting her really

anyway, I'm not going through all of them

[glacial warren]

Of the Bosses, the Bell Beast, Karmelita, the Clover Dancers, Seth, Nyleth, Khann, the Watcher At The Edge, Garmond and Zaza, Shakra, the Second Sentinel, each duel with Lace, Phantom, Trobbio and Tormented Trobbio, Plasmified Zango, Lost Garmond, Lost Lace, Widow, the First Sinner, the Pinstress, Gurr The Outcast, the Crawfather, the Palestag, the Summoned Savior, and possibly the Unravelled are not being directly commanded by the Grand Mother.

[limpid summit]

They really made the weavers do everything except the one thing the first game suggested they did 💔

[muted lantern]

No only some, you can tell which are haunted by whether they have little threads above their head going upward when you needolin them.

Bosses who arent haunted are bb, trobbio, phantom, seth, second sentinel, gurr the outcast, father of the flame, garmond and zaza, first sinner, shakra, all four hearts, pinstress, watcher at the edge likely, palestag, crawfather, tell me if i missed any

zango too i think?

[limpid summit]

Think you got most

Lace obv nah widow nah

Lugoli no right?

Or no

They get blackthreads

Summoned savior

[muted lantern]

widow is haunted.

you see the threads if you cheat in needolin for her fight

[graceful grail]

Then why can she talk to you?? Are you implying that GMS is talking thru Widow??

[muted lantern]

Im not implying anything, just saying what the game directly shows.

They gave her unique needolin dialogue, so they clearly expected us to do this.

[graceful grail]

Her silk is directly from GMS because she is first gen, so that could be why its connected

[muted lantern]

Those silk threads are only ever present coming out of the heads of haunted creatures when you needolin them.

Also the haunted are perfectly capable of writing choral commandments.

so i don't see why they couldn't talk. they just don't typically have a reason to.

[graceful grail]

The reeds do when using threadstorm, true

[muted lantern]

i suspect widow just has more control of herself due to her existance as a weaver having more power over silk, like how hornet can more easily resist the haunting of bellhart and cut herself free.

Widow is likely haunted willingly

thus control isnt exerted so heavily.

[muted lantern]

also lj

[graceful grail]

She is just under the will of GMS

[muted lantern]

Sort of, shes definitely haunted, but she has some level of autonomy still, likely due to the difference between the haunted who are just influenced by gms, and those who are just puppeteered corpses as well as the natural weaver resistance to haunting implied by hornet being able to free herself from bellharts curse

The haunted thread could be used to make sure widow can't betray her again even if shes loyal, or a means to extend her life.

or just to keep her in contact with the hivemind.

[craggy smelt]

continuity error~! non-canon~! continuity error~!

[muted lantern]

They gave her needolin dialogue and voice lines for the fight they clearly knew players would do that.

[craggy smelt]

this is just like with the dream nail dialogue for THK/PV...

[limpid summit]

Ehhh

I don’t see why they’d remove the threads if you’d never see that anyway

But like

Yeah pretty much what yak said

It’s harmless to guess that’s what PV might be thinking

The THK dnd is weird though it doesn’t make sense

[craggy smelt]

they might have given everyone needolin dialogue before they decided where you actually got the needolin

[limpid summit]

Bell Beast

[craggy smelt]

creating this paradox

[craggy smelt]

oh, it makes sense

[muted lantern]

They could have just as easily removed the dialogue, and the threads from appearing.

[limpid summit]

Like eh

Not happening

This was probably super early on

[craggy smelt]

yeeeeah, flavorful bits

[limpid summit]

Pretty cool though

Minus no mind

[craggy smelt]

that would actually require more effort than just doing what they did though

[limpid summit]

Capitalize a few of these and you’re good

[craggy smelt]

metaphorical~!

[muted lantern]

Besides, it makes sense for widow to be haunted, gms would want insurance as she has wouldn't trust even a loyal weaver after everything. And it at least proves widow was originally intended to be haunted.

Regardless, the topic feels like agood qna question for tc

[craggy smelt]

oh my god, if we only could have one

I have a list

with questions

[craggy smelt]

i wonder if there's code for her to stop and sing while the needolin plays or if she can keep fighting while doing it - that typically indicates those who aren't haunted

[muted lantern]

Well, she does stop and sing, when you needolin her.

[craggy smelt]

gasp!

[muted lantern]

its fully implemented

[craggy smelt]

welp

[muted lantern]

the text, the voice lines, the animations,

the thread above her

thats what i've been saying.

[craggy smelt]

all aboard the widow is haunted train

choo choo

[muted lantern]

this is also true for enemies like sister splinter and fourth chorus who have haunted threads

but those can be fought after needolin i think

if you path right

[craggy smelt]

yes

[muted lantern]

splinter interestingly enough isnt haunted actually.

or at least her thread clips into the cieling

[craggy smelt]

you aren't really meant to face her with it, they might just not have fixed all the graphical issues with it

[muted lantern]

https://youtu.be/b6Qa8Q9zTWU?t=172 here it is, should send you to the correct time.

[craggy smelt]

I'm a believer now

[muted lantern]

but also standing still isnt proof of being haunted

trobbio stands still too

[craggy smelt]

yeah, but does anything Haunted keep moving while singing? I don't think so.

[limpid summit]

I guess I could believe she purposefully connected herself to the hive mind

God GMS just did not care

[muted lantern]

thats what i said before

that shes probably willingly haunted.

and more autonomous likely because shes a weaver, we see hornet able to control herself while under bellharts curse

[craggy smelt]

that would actually be insane

not just 'let herself get haunted by Silk's threads'

but attached them herself

[muted lantern]

It could be extending her life, she is implied to be the last full blooded weaver.

Since weavers can run out of silk, and silk is formed from the beings own soul, i imagine if weavers run out of silk they straight up die

The only bug we know that can pilfer soul from others to make silk is hornet

[craggy smelt]

yeah, I've see that as a popular theory, re. weavers dying from lack of silk

they do suffer from age

and silk prolongs life

it all seems plausible

[green nova]

idk if this is stupid or not

[stray fog]

Who is herrah's father here?

[green nova]

lord fool from hollow knight. he has the same body shape as herrah, six limbs, would make pretty good sense overall, powerful warrior, "beastly" perhappenchance.

[stray fog]

Hornet is a half weaver, so herrah needs to be a pure weaver

[green nova]

drapemite theory is buns

[muted lantern]

Herrah is a full weaver canonically, it wouldn't make sense otherwise. hornet couldnt be a half weaver if her mom wasnt a full weaver. Herrah is just evolved from a different kind of pharlid we havent seen yet.

or just looks different because its a retcon shes a weaver at all

[stray fog]

I like yhe theory that herrah bound someone
Thats why she looks different

Or its childbirth

[green nova]

or maybe since first sinners head looks weird from the ascension, maybe it took GMS a few tries to get the heads perfectly spherical and accidentally made the pharlid

's horns too big

wtf i didnt even press enter

man fuck this keyboard

[muted lantern]

but yeah either way id put herrah up with the other weavers. Also do family trees typically include adopted family members? because if so the weavers are gms's adopted daughters so i wouldn't put a dotted line.

[green nova]

the dotted line says forced evolution because that's what it was. it's showing that instead of genuine slow evolution it was quick and possibly naturally unattainable.

[stray fog]

Well we don't have fastracked evolution in normal family trees

[muted lantern]

Its not really fastracked evolution. its a controlled mutation into an entirely different species. The pharlids wouldn't have evolved into weavers naturally ever without gms.

but family tree wise they were her adopted kids

[viscid ridge]

I think Hornets is the only specific case of this. Her Needle seems to be a mixture of hallownests nails (slashing) and weavers needles(piercing). We can see weavers used their needles more like spears or javelins (like in FS and GMS fight), which Hornet uses aswell. I think thats why its said to be perfectly balanced for combat.

My guess is Vespa used the blueprints for hornets weapon by combining Hallownests Nails and the Weavers Needle designs.

[alpine spruce]

So is the red memory basically hornet time travelling back just to get something?

[craggy smelt]

more like a trip down memory lane than actually traveling through time

(maybe, who knows what's up with WL and that flower...)

[alpine spruce]

Y'know speaking about red memory ts lowk tear me a bit

Hornet was really all what hollownest is left (unless they made a return to hollownest dlc)

[viscid ridge]

To be fair White Lady is very likely still alive, and Ogrim i guess

[dreamy onyx]

Maybe Hallownest deserves to move on in peace

But tbf Dirtmouth still seems active, and unlike Pharloom there's nothing to threaten them

[pliant meadow]

Hallownest is also probably chill after hk lol

[autumn umbra]

now that the Infection is gone Dirtmouth will probably get more travelers trying to get riches by going down the well

[eternal timber]

I mean, the Colosseum of Fools will continue attracting folks like Tigo, and certainly, with the infection gone, Ogrim will try to make something new, but it's not a super reliable method to base your population on explorers and adventurers

[solar badge]

Hornet taking more damage from enemies in pharloom doesnt mean she’s weaker and less durable than the knight it just means pharloom has more advanced weapons and stronger enemies right?

[eternal timber]

Is it? Over the course of the game you get Connifer and Isolde, who maybe will stay for a while, to make some coin, but most likely will eventually depart, Bretta, who if she ever falls out of love of Zote, will leave, Tigo dies, Cloth can die if her quest completes, and will leave if it doesn't, Elderbug, Zote and Sly are about the only ones who could reasonably be fine with staying

[eternal timber]

Likely she's weaker

[pliant meadow]

Yes

[eternal timber]

Even if we ignore the void, Knight is the child of two Pale beings

[pliant meadow]

Hornet post silksong low difs tk tho

[eternal timber]

Hornet is half of one–

[dreamy onyx]

Who knows, maybe Dirtmouth will become a town unto itself and Hallownest will just remain a ruin under it

[eternal timber]

Insane copium inhalation 😔

[eternal timber]

She does not

[cunning wigeon]

How

[pliant meadow]

She does 🙏

[pliant meadow]

She heals way faster

[eternal timber]

Got a source?

[pliant meadow]

Hollow Knight: Silksong, press the bind button

[cunning wigeon]

That doesn’t mean much if the knight does a lot more damage

[pliant meadow]

Do they?

[eternal timber]

I mean that as well

[pliant meadow]

Hornet has more health

[cunning wigeon]

I’d assume that using the power of the abyss is a lot stronger than silk

[pliant meadow]

10 masks instead of tk's 9

[eternal timber]

Knight is capable of controlling several abyss spells + soul–

Are we being deadass rn

[pliant meadow]

Max needle silk spear man idk

[pliant meadow]

Yes 🙏

[solar badge]

Hornet has the durability of inhaling the litreal grand mother silk

[dreamy onyx]

We don't know if they work the same way since we don't have a direct comparison

[pliant meadow]

Silk is made of soul

[pliant meadow]

Uh ig but I'm going off gameplay

[solar badge]

Idk bout you but thats a hell on of silk

[cunning wigeon]

Abyss shriek with the shaman charm

[pliant meadow]

She binds her but I see where ur mind's at

[solar badge]

Didnt hornet beat lost lace?

Who was also full of void?

[cunning wigeon]

Yeah, but the knight actually CONTROLS the void, a unified void is probably a lot stronger than a singular possessed person

[pliant meadow]

Silk spear w/ shaman crest & volt filament

[eternal timber]

The Knight has like

Better feats than hornet

[solar badge]

I disagree

[dreamy onyx]

Yeah but she's wasn't a void being, she was possessed by the void not made out of it

[cunning wigeon]

Damn…. I can’t argue against that

[pliant meadow]

Like what? Dlc doesn't count bc silksong doesn't have any

[solar badge]

Beating 4 rulers in their prime is a massive frat

[eternal timber]

Dlc does count

[solar badge]

Feat

[dreamy onyx]

Why is this even a debate, the Knight literally controls the Void, they could body hornet any day of the week

and that's without bringing the Shade Lord into this

[pliant meadow]

Nope, not until silksong gets some

[solar badge]

Delicate flowet defies the void

He cant even touch her

[pliant meadow]

❌

Also shade lord is all the vessels & tk not just tk so its not a 1v1

[eternal timber]

Because Silksong is Embrace the Void accessible, meaning Knight can perfectly have canonically beaten the Godhome Pantheon

[solar badge]

Also i dont remember the knight beating radiance alone. (Not counting dlc)

[pliant meadow]

Mmmm I hadn't thought of that, tho it doesn't get destroyed in sotv

[dreamy onyx]

The Knight unifies the Void under their will, that includes the Shades

[eternal timber]

Not even Void Entity

Like

what

[pliant meadow]

Even then it becomes the shade lord

[cunning wigeon]

When silksong gets dlc we’ll see how the conversation goes, but you should be allowed to use all the information you have. And right now (before silksong dlc) the knight is stronger

[pliant meadow]

What is that

[eternal timber]

Is this low caliber ragebaut

[eternal timber]

Shade Lord/Lord of Shades

[pliant meadow]

I'm not counted dlc from hk bc then it's not a fair discussion

[solar badge]

Silksong dont got dlc in this situation so neither does the knight

[pliant meadow]

Yeah that's just just tk so it's not a fair fight

[dreamy onyx]

How is it not fair, the DLC is part of the world

[solar badge]

Although the god seeker ending thing is canon

[pliant meadow]

Exactly

[pliant meadow]

Then wait for silksong's dlc and we can talk

[eternal timber]

Lmao what

[cunning wigeon]

If you have to get rid of a whole section of lore to support your argument, then I think there might be a problem with it

[solar badge]

Shade lord will prob be a boss in pantheon anyway

[pliant meadow]

Silksong doesn't have dlc yet 🫶

[dreamy onyx]

All of this is just what we know brah, maybe the power dynamic will shift with Silksong's DLC but we don't know it so we have to work with what we do know

[eternal timber]

Im not counting it rn, but hy the endgame, Knight could easily wash endgame hornet

[solar badge]

If silksong pantheon comes

[pliant meadow]

I don't think so

[dreamy onyx]

It would be a fair fight

[pliant meadow]

Hornet can heal way faster & midair, there's no way tk has time to heal

[cunning wigeon]

You realize we can have these arguments now and then change our opinions when the dlc DOES come out, right? It’s not like anything is set in stone right now

[dreamy onyx]

Yeah but if she gets hit she loses all of her silk

[pliant meadow]

That's exactly my point, ty

[dreamy onyx]

The Knight only loses some of their soul

[pliant meadow]

While she's healing, yeah. But if she gets it off, that's 3 whole masks

[pliant meadow]

They only heal one mask at a time tho

[eternal timber]

Any time Knight fights a dream boss, not warrior, dream boss, they fight them in their utmost prime btw

[pliant meadow]

Where is that stated? I always thought that was just how strong they thought they were

[dreamy onyx]

Yeah but it's generally safer since they have more of a chance to recover

[pliant meadow]

But there's no way they ever have the time to heal

[dreamy onyx]

Are we assuming there's no staggers

[solar badge]

Youre saying markoth compares to khann?

[pliant meadow]

If Hornet staggers than so does tk

[pliant meadow]

'Not warrior'

[cunning wigeon]

Knight can dodge through attacks

[dreamy onyx]

TK has more range with their spells

[pliant meadow]

Doesn't help them heal

[pliant meadow]

Hornet has a Larry

[solar badge]

Lwk ts aint going nowhere since both characters are used by the player

[pliant meadow]

Also so can hornet

[cunning wigeon]

But if they dodge they won’t need to heal

[dreamy onyx]

But it does help them avoid damage

[solar badge]

So it doesnt really make much sense to argue atm

[cunning wigeon]

At the cost of silk

[pliant meadow]

Hornet can parry & dodge through attacks

[pliant meadow]

Yes?

[dreamy onyx]

What even is her moveset though

[solar badge]

Which she passively regenerates

[dreamy onyx]

Are we just assuming Hornet has all her skills on her

[pliant meadow]

I'm assuming shaman crest & volt filament at least

So 3 silk skills

[solar badge]

Since knight can use every ability at once

So can hornet in this situation

[pliant meadow]

Eh idk

[solar badge]

And also hornet used 3 silk skills

During the hornet protectir

I think

[pliant meadow]

Hk hornet isn't the same as silksong hornet

[solar badge]

True true

[cunning wigeon]

I think she’d have a better chance with architects crest, since the knight is a lot more naturally skilled with soul than she is. Hornet should stick to craftsmanship she’s good at

[dreamy onyx]

Hornet with architects crest solos anybody

[pliant meadow]

She's plenty good at silk skills, as far as I can tell

[eternal timber]

Im saying Soul Tyrant probably compares to Nyleth yeah

[cunning wigeon]

True

[eternal timber]

Gng

[pliant meadow]

Also im tryna keep it at least a little fair lol

[solar badge]

Nyleth is like the easiest one😭

[eternal timber]

Hornet is HALF a Pale/Higher Being

[pliant meadow]

Yeah she also kills 4 monarchs in their prime

*maybe nyleth isn't a monarch

[cunning wigeon]

The knight kills an intangible god

[solar badge]

She did get overthrown by sister splinter

[pliant meadow]

With the help of their siblings, yes

[eternal timber]

Knight beats 4 hyper idealized versions of beings, Grey Prince Zote = Green Prince

[solar badge]

And the hollow knight

[eternal timber]

And once again

[solar badge]

I mean

With the help of hk

Damn it

[pliant meadow]

'Hyper idealised' doesn't sound very strong ngl

[eternal timber]

The Knight clears the five pantheons of Godhome

[pliant meadow]

Dlc doesn't count >w<

[cunning wigeon]

That’s such a silly rule though

[eternal timber]

It is part of the game

[solar badge]

So will horney when it comes out

[pliant meadow]

Silksong doesn't have dlc :P

[solar badge]

But first she will prob beat the god of lifeblood

[pliant meadow]

Pharloom but yeah

[eternal timber]

Doesnt matter lol

[solar badge]

Im assuming

[pliant meadow]

It does 🫶

[eternal timber]

As it stands now, dlcs included, Hornet is weaker than the knight

[cunning wigeon]

So I can’t even count Grimm?

[dreamy onyx]

That doesn't change shit I'm sorry

[pliant meadow]

Nuh uh hornet kills a pantheon of higher beings in the dlc wdym

[pliant meadow]

Yuh

[pliant meadow]

It does tho

[dreamy onyx]

Knight still bodies Hornet in the Void

[eternal timber]

Takes two hearts of damage constantly, not because Pharloom is deadlier but because she is weaker

[cunning wigeon]

That’s just psycho stuff man

[solar badge]

U lit said she beats everyone with architect crest

[pliant meadow]

And hornet bodies tk as weaver queen 😭

[eternal timber]

What

[eternal timber]

No?

[solar badge]

If we count shade lord we count her aswell

[pliant meadow]

Hey you don't know it's not out yet

[pliant meadow]

I mean she would

[solar badge]

Gms was able to stop the void from killing her with silk

[eternal timber]

Godhome is out so, we base ourselves by on sight feats

[dreamy onyx]

Well if you want to get technical then Hornet needs to bind GMS to become the Weaver Queen, the Knight just needs to push her in the void lake

[pliant meadow]

Okay then

[eternal timber]

Because LACE

[cunning wigeon]

Zote absolutely bodies Hornet after he absorbs her soul in his game

[pliant meadow]

Well shit you've got me there :(

[eternal timber]

GMS would have given up waaaay earlier if Lace wasn't a factor

[cunning wigeon]

Actually it was a bad example, he beats her anyway

[pliant meadow]

Zote solos Hallownest bro ofc

[eternal timber]

Also, she is able to stop the void tendrils but both the Lord of Shades and the Shade Lord are above that

IN FACT

IN FACT

[pliant meadow]

Shade lord is all the vessels. I thought we were doing hornet vs tk?

Oh I can't wait now

I'm on the edge of my seat

[eternal timber]

Actually I was going to argue that Radiance breaks free from the tendrils while GMS cant, but then I rembered oh yeah they put a trap kn her

[pliant meadow]

I gotta go in a bit bro hurry up

Gd all that time for that

[pearl thunder]

The shade lord is an amalgamation of all the void under TK's will

[pliant meadow]

All the vessels, yes

[eternal timber]

Someone brought up that Weaver Queen beats the knight

[pliant meadow]

Oh I did yeah

[pearl thunder]

Not just all the vessels, but the void sea as well

[pliant meadow]

Uh sure wtv

[pearl thunder]

the void sea is a much bigger part of the equation

[pliant meadow]

Ok

[pliant meadow]

Obviously not all of it tho bc of sotv

[eternal timber]

Anyways, Hornet’s shell is likely weaker

[pliant meadow]

likely

I don't think it is

[pearl thunder]

sotv?

[pliant meadow]

Sister of the void, the ending

[eternal timber]

Takes two masks of damage with more common enemies than the knight

[pliant meadow]

You're saying TK wouldn't take 2 masks of damage to the same enemies?

[eternal timber]

Yeah

[pliant meadow]

Why

[eternal timber]

Im hard claiming th– because the Knight is stronger than Hornet/is the child of two pale beings

[viscid ridge]

Probably, id guess that the vessels have stronger shells given they are fully higher beings, while Hornet is only half. But Hornet greatly makes up for it in agility

[eternal timber]

For sure

[pliant meadow]

I just think Pharloom is more dangerous dawg

[eternal timber]

Exactly, you think

[pliant meadow]

And you're claiming

[eternal timber]

Im sure Hornet would make mention in text, to any of her allies and friends if she THOUGHT the land is deadlier than her home

[viscid ridge]

You have to remember most double damage attacks in pharloom aren't as a result of the enemies being stronger, but them being faster. Most double damage comes from multi hits

[pliant meadow]

And I'm sure she wouldn't

[vapid moat]

Silksong is more punishing than hollow knight but lore wise its hard to say

[eternal timber]

She wouldn't tell Shakra "I must say Shakra, I come to find these lands threats harsher than my own home"?

[pliant meadow]

(For context we're doing tk vs hornet)

[eternal timber]

No

[pliant meadow]

Nope

[vapid moat]

TK wins easily

[pliant meadow]

We aren't?

[pliant meadow]

Why

[vapid moat]

Because the knight is a lot stronger? Especially in its form we see in sister of the void

[eternal timber]

Literally the starting question

[pliant meadow]

How is the knight stronger?

[eternal timber]

Is Pharloom more dangerous or is the Knight tougher, that is the starting question

[pliant meadow]

I gotta go to sleep soon :/

Sorry

[vapid moat]

They kill the radiance even without VGFocus (godhome ending) they are very clearly stronger

[pliant meadow]

Oh yeah they do kill the radiance!... with the help of the hollow knight

[eternal timber]

Uh no

[vapid moat]

This is starting to feel like rage bait

[eternal timber]

It is

[pliant meadow]

That's just how I talk I'm sorry 😭

[eternal timber]

By the point thk arrives

The Radiance is literally trying to flee for her life

All the Hollow Knight does is hold her in place for tk to beat her up and that's it

[pliant meadow]

& rip her face open

[vapid moat]

No not that part, how you always have a way to “disprove” what people tell you and not at least try to understand what their saying

[cunning wigeon]

One more question: who’s stronger? Grimm or the guys with scissors in greymoor? (Only one of them does double damage)

[vapid moat]

I’d say a tie

[pliant meadow]

Peenar snipper guy (greymoor)

[pliant meadow]

Can you refute what I'm saying tho

[vapid moat]

We’ve tried

[eternal timber]

We kinda have been doing that

[pliant meadow]

Yeah I've put thought into this scenario lol

[vapid moat]

The knight is also the product of two pale beings and the void, hornet is only part pale being

[pliant meadow]

How well has that been going

[eternal timber]

Pretty well honestly

[pliant meadow]

We're talking by about feats

[pliant meadow]

Show :3

[cunning wigeon]

I’m just confused why you can’t admit Hornet’s shell is weaker. Like, you can still say she beats the knight with sheer skill

[pliant meadow]

Dear god I'm ragebaiting too much I'm sorry I'll stop 😭

I have to go to sleep anyway byyyye

[cunning wigeon]

The rage bait was fun! Goodnight

[vapid moat]

Hornet never kills GMS, at most she can bind it, the knight kills the radiance and in godhome ending shows that it is capable of becoming a much stronger being

[solar badge]

Didnt the knights shell lit crack open tho?

[cunning wigeon]

I’m pretty sure that’s because they literally shed it in the radiance fight

[solar badge]

Is gms a pale being anyway?

[eternal timber]

Knight beats Grimm, Nightmare King Grimm, fights 5 bosses on their utmost idealized peak made form in the dream realm, beats the Radiance alone so much that allows thk to assist in the final strikes, beat the five pantheons of Godhome, and united the Void.

[cunning wigeon]

Hornet says so

[eternal timber]

She is she is

[vapid moat]

I assume so

[solar badge]

Mmmm okay

[vapid moat]

Probably why they could resist the void at all

[solar badge]

So theoretically hornet binds a pale beings

[vapid moat]

Yes

[solar badge]

And steals her identity

As a crest

So instead of being half a child of a pale being she lit becomes a pale being

I think

[eternal timber]

Hornet has some impressive feats as well, yes, like that's undeniable GMS and Lost Lace are factually incredible wins for het

[solar badge]

And lost lace would beat the radiance?

Even absolute radiancr

Beacuse of the void

[eternal timber]

We can imagine something like that yeah

[solar badge]

Correct?

[vapid moat]

I doubt lost lace could beat absolute rad

[eternal timber]

Uhhhh i don't think she is on the Knight's level

[solar badge]

My conclusion is the weaver queen has a big chance against tk

And hornet is still to be seen

Due to dlc

[eternal timber]

As Lace recieves more hits, the Void drips away from her

[vapid moat]

I mean the radiance also had a big chance against the knight

[solar badge]

Beacuse of the delicate flowrt

That hornet had i think

[eternal timber]

The delicate flower is just to reach the cocoon though

[dreamy onyx]

I keep reading your name as SoCal

[solar badge]

109% means completion rate right?

[eternal timber]

Thats hk lmao but thats from like when I joined

[eternal timber]

Lolll

[solar badge]

Now u got?

[eternal timber]

112 and 96? I havent done the rebirth ending + minor discovery

[solar badge]

Damn

Impressive

[cunning wigeon]

I think it’s a toss up between shade lord and weaver queen since the void seems to just be the strongest substance

[vapid moat]

I feel like VGFocus (shade lord) clears all other higher beings seeing what it did to the radiance and godhome itself

[worn forge]

Poshanka

[dreamy onyx]

Do y'all think the music in the Cogwork Core is diegetic? Like it's being played in-game

[solar badge]

What bug rlly is trobbio?

[dreamy onyx]

Butterfly

[vapid moat]

He has to be my second favorite butterfly in the hollow knight games

[solar badge]

1st is the singer girl?

Marissa?

I think

[vapid moat]

Yeah city of tears music is too good

[solar badge]

Yhh

[cunning wigeon]

I could see it considering the whole purpose of the citadel is practically to sing

[glacial warren]

Yes. The purpose of the Core is it’s one giant music box made to automate the process of playing the magic lullaby keeping the Grand Mother asleep. You can see the giant cylinders playing the song in the background.

[autumn tree]

does anyone know why the green prince was locked up in sinners road when we find him

[elder herald]

w

hi

[glad osprey]

wait that’s incredibly cool

[twin dragon]

Was it only supposed to replicate the architect's melody only or the entirety of the threefold melody?

[limpid summit]

Well we only get the architect from it

Presumably the vaultkeepers melody would have played throughout the vaults and the conductors’ throughout the high halls

But there must have been some automation there too

[cunning wigeon]

Why she look like that then? I’m not saying she is, I just can’t find any way to justify the way she looks outside of team cherry ret conning, and we all know they’d never do that!

[limpid summit]

Herrah is very very likely to be a regular Weaver and not a Drapemite

It’s a funny theory

And it would have slightly more weight if they didn’t try to retcon her body

But they just didn’t have her being a Weaver in mind, and then they couldn’t change the horns that look like Hornet

Her face just grew differently

[twin dragon]

The entire melody or segments of it are played throughout the citadel presumably

[twin dragon]

Maybe herrah mated and just exploded

[thick night]

uhhhh are there any clues saying how long after the hallownest events silksong takes place in?

[solar badge]

Gms is called the primal source of silk

Is that important?

[limpid summit]

Silk infused with Soul like what the Weavers have is all from her

Regular spider string and whatever Nosk has is likely just biological

[blissful harbor]

yk something that has confused me

is it silk infused soul
or is it soul woven into silk
like just long strings of soul basically

[limpid summit]

Would have been the former if not for

Fine thread spun from the soul of its creator.

In the materium

[amber flare]

You’re kidding, right?

[sinful nimbus]

wtf?

is this true

i'll go spread the word

the fight for truth is worth more than my reputation

[viscid ridge]

Idk why would they call her Hornet if she is actually a spider? Are the devs stupid?

[mint stratus]

I headcanon that herrahs sleep is what caused her body to change, similar to the godseeker growing large from their time in the sarcophagus

[drifting walrus]

She was raised by bees

[lone folio]

Clearly she's based off of an umbrella

[muted lantern]

I've asked this before but what do y'all think the chances are of a herrah weaver idol existing in the setting. Like would it be possible or did she leave before the religion was founded.

[eternal timber]

I think its incredibly unlikely

To not say not happening

Herrah, as far as we know, was deemed a common bug who was likely only elevated because she married the Deepnest King

[muted lantern]

She was considered a common bug in hallownest by the mushroom tribe where their origins weren't known. In pharloom she's a weaver which were seen as divine beings.

[sinful nimbus]

That seems to have come from the Citadel n stuff

[hearty bolt]

it's likely the latter

[eternal timber]

Eeeeeh yeah, but I don't necessarily thing Deepnest Weavers might have been the same generation as the ruling Weavers of pharloom

[muted lantern]

There is only one generation of weavers

[hearty bolt]

Imagine an Effigy of Herrah just being the Weaver of Fertility lmao

[sinful nimbus]

If they wanted to do a Herrah homage they should've named Weavenest Cindril after her smh

[hearty bolt]

uh, no?

multiple hybrids exist + whatever the deepnest weaverlings are

[muted lantern]

They are an all female species that struggles to reproduce. Any subsequent generations would not be full weavers. And herrah has to be a full weaver for hornet to be half weaver.

[muted lantern]

Read below

[hearty bolt]

mate, a half weaver is still a weaver

[eternal timber]

From where have you gotten that

[muted lantern]

You aren't understanding me, hornet is called a half weaver. If herrah was not a full weaver, how would hornet be half one.

[hearty bolt]

I struggle to see wtf you're even arguing rn

[eternal timber]

Okay i get it

But its a bit mindboggling

[muted lantern]

That herrah is a full weaver, not a second generation weaver.

[hearty bolt]

Well yes she is a full weaver

[muted lantern]

Social was arguing otherwise

[eternal timber]

No

[hearty bolt]

• she does remember the shite that happened in Pharloom so yeah

considering what she tells hornet in the red memory....

[eternal timber]

Im not saying that, so dont put claims j havent said

I just want you to back thd claim that there's only ever been one generation of weavers

[muted lantern]

I did above

[hearty bolt]

there cannot be only one generation of weavers

hybrids and the weaverling offshoots exist

hornet + the hybrids listed in the cradle

[eternal timber]

Yopic for some reasom doesnt count those

[hearty bolt]

so at least two generations

maybe more, since there are mentions of quarter weavers....

[eternal timber]

If they didnt count as full Weavers, I doubt GMS would jave sent people after the quarter weaver

[hearty bolt]

tho I've no idea wtf the weaverlings even are

or the other spider monsters

[mint stratus]

Lmao she totally did, you read the stuff in the cradle?

[eternal timber]

The charm things?

[hearty bolt]

charm things and enemies themselves in deepnest

[muted lantern]

Let me be clear. What I am arguing, is there is the first generation of weavers are the only full weavers. As they are an all female species, further generations are not fully weavers, the second generations tracked down are all like 1/4 or 1/8. Hornet is half weaver, 50% considering her other parent not a weaver at all, her mother cannot be a second generation weaver.

[eternal timber]

Thats... what im saying

[hearty bolt]

nobody is arguing that herrah isn't a first gen weaver broski

[muted lantern]

... That's how the convo started

[hearty bolt]

I wasn't there

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1279234466778185888/1463917722957119599/mark_typing_iron_lung.gif

[eternal timber]

I actually got it today! Weaverlings are made to give companionship of the wearer of the charm so they dont feel alone

[muted lantern]

This is the argument I'm responding to @hearty bolt

This whole time

[eternal timber]

Yeah i was wondering that, cause

I wasnt sure that Weavers were seemingly immortal

[hearty bolt]

there's still the issue of hollow knight not actually having a proper depiction/definition of weavers

silksong retconned a LOT

[mint stratus]

No I mean they weren’t considered full weaver at all, blood diluted to the point of heritage being distant in many cases

[eternal timber]

A parting song of Deepnest Weavers before going back to their homeland

[muted lantern]

That doesn't really have anything to do with my argument. All I'm arguing is herrah has to be a first generation weaver.

[eternal timber]

Which likely got retconned

[hearty bolt]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Little_Weaver

like how are there so many of these in hk

[mint stratus]

I wouldn’t say so, considering how much time has passed between the infection starting and the weavers fleeing, and the current day likely being hundreds if not thousands of years apart

[eternal timber]

I mean

Okay so

[hearty bolt]

Yeah im just throwing that out to anybody who questions herrah looking wildly odd in comparison to skong weavers

[muted lantern]

Half weavers probably. Or something more complicated. I've seen someone make a compelling argument that the infection is devolving the weavers back into pharlids. But idk how likely that is.

Considering that lore wasn't thought out yet, but it could have been made retroactively true to make it make sense within the retcons

[eternal timber]

The timeline argued here, is that the Weavers flee Pharloom out of fear of GMS going free, a group of them settle in Deepnest, and by the timeframe suggested, infection drops within like... decades? Then they have Hornet, flee Hallownest and go back to Pharloom... without anything that ensure GMS stays sesled?

[mint stratus]

I assumed they were local spiders species given masks of weaver make as a way of having children without the difficulty of producing them biologically

Which is why the maskmaker is there

[muted lantern]

But anyway I'm never was trying to argue that there was only one generation of weavers/weaver descendants. Just that the only weavers that aren't half weaver quarter weaver etc are the first generation directly made by silk. And using that to back up why herrah had to be first generation.

When I said there's only one generation of weavers I meant full weavers.

[eternal timber]

I mean

Its just weird, cause out of the top of my head, nothing really comes to mind that backs up Weaver immortality

[muted lantern]

They aren't immortal. I never said this. We see many species that are long lived in hks universe.

Ogrims been alive for likely centuries.

But he's not immortal