sk-lore

[light verge]

aye

[rancid glen]

how much pail ore is for the one before pure nail

[light verge]

oop wrong channel, #hk-help (i have no idea off hand sorry)

[foggy fractal]

hi!

[lone folio]

There are some weird animatronic dudes in the poem room that match the signs outside

[graceful grail]

I know, we never see what they do right??

[glacial warren]

I think they may have been meant to help in Trobbio’s stage productions, assigned by Citadel higher-ups so Trobbio could provide entertainment for the bigwigs.

[lone folio]

Trobbio was probably not there until recently

[glacial warren]

He seems pretty devoted to Pharloom, and the Stage seems designed with him in mind. He’s exquisitely familiar with its mechanisms to the point he uses its pyrotechnics in combat.

[graceful grail]

And the floor trapdoors.

Also, who is operating the spotlights on him

[sturdy knot]

Well i personally don’t think balador is haunted, but he is still taking silk in the events of the game

There might be different silk tolerances levels

[muted lantern]

me when i lie

[sturdy knot]

Team cherry is operating the lights

[wraith prairie]

Is it possible that Greyroot is a higher being similar in nature to The Nightmare's Heart?

[graceful grail]

More likely related to White Lady

[mossy gorge]

she straight kills him.

like, he's just chilling

mourning his lover

and hornet kills him

[wraith prairie]

I mean similar in nature due to Greyroot often referencing rebirth

[graceful grail]

White Lady is the god of Reproduction

[muted lantern]

Shes likely not a higher being. Shes something similar to the white lady, but the white lady seems to be a goddess and greyroot isnt. maybe wl became a god by consuming a pale being like greyroot does in cursed child? maybe cursed child is creating a new wl like creature, who knows.

[wraith prairie]

Yeah but think about it, the entire area she takes up in shellwood, isn't that basically part of her body?

[graceful grail]

Is white Palace and Queens Gardens all white ladys body??

[wraith prairie]

No, white palace and queen's garden look nothing like the rest of her

[upbeat fog]

I thought white lady was a higher being

[wraith prairie]

The area in shellwood actually look like Greyroot's Roots

[upbeat fog]

Fire profile picture btw

[wraith prairie]

Thanks lol

[wraith prairie]

Then it might have been at one point

When Hallownest was still flourishing

[glad osprey]

very quick question, is there a name for the sort of being gms’ woven children are

namely for referral reasons

[tiny musk]

Silkborn

[glad osprey]

wait there actually is

nice

[tiny musk]

Is what I refer to them as at least

[glad osprey]

stealing that

[edgy nebula]

not really

theyre just silk constructs

[muted lantern]

Silkspun child is whats used for lace

officially

[glad osprey]

got multiple words then :) yay

[dreamy onyx]

great status btw

[glad osprey]

i’m procrastinating on it

scary

[autumn umbra]

wuts iy

[edgy nebula]

do forebrothers signis and gron have any lore other than being foremen

they seem really unimportant but also very important

[fresh badger]

Theyre the only literate deep docks bugs!

The others are all illiterate

[edgy nebula]

https://giphy.com/gifs/black-and-white-hmm-hmmm-F0XA5MfIpQP3ZmJH2D

[fresh badger]

And the flintslate was made for them (or rather, made for all of signis spears)

[autumn umbra]

I still don't know why bells are important in this game

[fresh badger]

Bro is dropping flintslate spears without any concern for collecting them

[fresh badger]

Bell lore kinda fizzled out with the song lore 😔 everything is silk

[edgy nebula]

gron has cool exploding spears while hornet gets a chud burning rock

[fresh badger]

All we know is the weavers were involved with the bells since weavenest atla has a version of the shrine bells in their secret anti-gms workshop

[autumn umbra]

maybe they all come from Forgehome? and the Weavers found it useful for anti-gms song making

[fresh badger]

I mean the bells straight up just. Arent involved in keeping gms asleep

It was the choir and then it was the architect melody room

[autumn umbra]

then what's their point

[fresh badger]

There is none 😭

ts pmo

[autumn umbra]

but they are everywhere!!

[fresh badger]

Yep! Literal veins of bells!

[autumn umbra]

it's the symbol of the Citadel even

[fresh badger]

The citadel symbol is the gms cocoon

[autumn umbra]

oh I thought that was a bell x3

[fresh badger]

The arch thing around it is like a weaver harp

Weaver harp around gms

[autumn umbra]

a Forgehome DLC would be cool

[edgy nebula]

youve got forgehome, mosshome, so many homes

then youve got bilehaven

you had one job team cherry

[autumn umbra]

we know bc of the magma bell and the um binding protection bell thingy that bells can have magical powers

bilehome

cradlehome

[fresh badger]

I mean its less the bells and more the hymns in them or whatever

[autumn umbra]

um

BlastedHome

[fresh badger]

Like warding bell is specifically powered by a hymn inscribed as runes iirc

[autumn umbra]

mayb

[edgy nebula]

shellwoodhome

BELLHOME

so many damn homes

[fresh badger]

Holy bell inscribed with a hymn of protection.

[autumn umbra]

OMG IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW

x3

[autumn umbra]

so music is magical? i thought you needed metaphysical substances like Void, Soul or Essence to do such things

so strange

[fresh badger]

Theres like vague elements of song having power but not much

[solid vine]

Oh REALLY?!?!

WOOOOOW WHO WOULD'VE GUESSED?!??!

[autumn umbra]

and also why do the bugs in Wisp Thicket do magic if they not related to any energy

[fresh badger]

The choir song kept gms asleep
Needolin is music based and accesses memories
Sherma talks about singing to raise the toll bench minishrines iirc

[dreamy onyx]

I feel like they had huge plans but realised the game wouldn't release until 2030 if they did it all, so honestly idk how much we're getting because Ari himself said that one day he realised the game would never release if they just kept adding stuff

[edgy nebula]

the fire is magic

[solid vine]

REAL EINSTEIN OVER HERE RIGHT GUYS?

[bitter vault]

They have fire

[fresh badger]

ty!

[autumn umbra]

but fire isn't magic..

idk where that word came from

[edgy nebula]

wisp thicket bugs have magic fire

[fresh badger]

The wisps are made of flickering flame which theres a shaman spell recipe for

[solid vine]

Any magic can exist atp

Just go with it

[fresh badger]

So the wisps are a spell

[edgy nebula]

erm ackthually theyre made of wispfire...

[dreamy onyx]

man I hope they expand the bells it kinda annoys me how they're underutilised tbh

[autumn umbra]

so it's soul

[autumn umbra]

YES

[fresh badger]

Kinda, since it consumes hornets silksoul to make wisps

[dreamy onyx]

i think they should add a bellvein expansion

[solid vine]

I was thinking about the connections between silk and soul

[dreamy onyx]

silk is made from soul, weavers specifically can spin soul into silk within their shells

[bitter vault]

I had honestly always assumed that silk was just threaded soul

[autumn umbra]

silk is soul spun by GMS or her creations

[solid vine]

Do you think every Higher Being as their own element related to soul?

[fresh badger]

Wdym element

[solid vine]

GMS is Silk, obvi

[autumn umbra]

I always imagined Silk was Soul even before SS released but I have no way of proving it 😔

[solid vine]

Whatever God the Fire Bugs worshipped was Fire

[fresh badger]

FoTF was NOT a higher being vro

[solid vine]

Wasn't he?

[edgy nebula]

fotf isnt a hb but it's possible they worshipped one

no

fotf was built by burning bugs

[autumn umbra]

isn't he like a giant doll

[fresh badger]

It was worshipped but that doesnt make it a higher being it was like a funeral pyre idol thingie

Whats it called

[edgy nebula]

wickerman

[fresh badger]

Its a fucking thing I dont remember the yeah

[solid vine]

Effigy

[fresh badger]

Soon may the wickerman come, to bring us sugar and spice and rum

[edgy nebula]

it has a burning bug housed at the center so it was probably a suicide, like many doomsday cults do, or an attempt at either becoming a god or ascending to godhood to meet their god

[spark valve]

they're not really a doomsday cult

[autumn umbra]

if PK is a Soul god why has he never done things with it like GMS

[edgy nebula]

yeah, moreso like, crazy cult in general

[solid vine]

I meant like a separate element relating to soul. Like a kinda isotope of Soul

Silk and Fire are the only examples I can think of at the moment

[spark valve]

no that's not a thing

[fresh badger]

• Soul elevators in his palace
• Infinite soul soul totems
• Seal making
• Soul lore tablet making
• All his offspring can harvest soul from living beings without killing them (something super weird and rare and related to eating (soul eater, godseekers call tk eater of soul))
• His offspring can innately manipulate soul to heal (Focus/Bind)

[solid vine]

What about Unn?

[spark valve]

forgor kingsoul, moulds, etc

[solid vine]

Those are void

[fresh badger]

Kingsoul is kinda white lady involvement

But yea moulds

[solid vine]

What's Unn's thingy?

[spark valve]

moulds are made with soul that's how the shells work

[solid vine]

He's a higher being too.

[autumn umbra]

I also believe he gave sapience to bugs by modifying their crests but that's just uhh total headcanon
thanks for the summary tho. very insightful

[glad osprey]

it, made a typo

[bitter vault]

pale beings and higher beings are different though, right? I thought soul was the distinction between the two

[solid vine]

That... actually makes sense

[fresh badger]

She created all the foliage filling:
Greenpath
Fog Canyon
Queens Gardens
And arguably even Fungal Wastes before Fungal Wastes came around

As well as all the mosskin and maybe critters like mosscreepers and moss chargers

[solid vine]

So plants

Plants are his/her thing

Forgor his jender

[fresh badger]

Well its kinda more dreams

All of it came from Unn's dream

And now she's a sleeping God according to godseeker

[solid vine]

Radiance controls Dream Essence

[fresh badger]

Higher Beings arent a greek pantheon with like total embodiment of an element vro

[solid vine]

So we have Silk, Fire, Dream, and the root of it all, Soul

[fresh badger]

Tons of higher beings are involved with the expanse of dream

[autumn umbra]

I'm pretty sure there are two kinds of HBs: Soul and Essence. that's it

[solid vine]

Is soul even the root of it all or is it dreams?

[fresh badger]

Essence is also related to soul, the expanse of dream is the space between body and soul, and can be converted to soul with the dream nail

[fresh badger]

Lord of Shades? Its stated to have evolved beyond the pale wyrm by Bardoon, and its straight void

[solid vine]

So the only Higher Being that has nothing to do with soul would be Shade Lord

[autumn umbra]

literally the only exception. I did think of mentioning it. I find these categories helpful but we obviously dk what's out there

[bitter vault]

I feel like dreams and dream essence isn’t a radiance thing, but a higher being thing in general? The white lady talks to hornet through what seems to be a dream based memory, the pale king stores himself in a dream version of his palace, the nightmare heart’s ritual occurs in Grimm’s dream, the mosskin and moths were created through dreams of Unn and the Radiance

[bitter vault]

I also thought of this as an idea

[fresh badger]

I mean soul and essence are kinda fundamental to life

Soul is lifeforce, essence is mind stuff

[bitter vault]

But considering that the dream nail gives soul I’m thinking
Higher Beings = Beings that have some kind of power over dreams
Pale Beings = Beings with some kind of power over dreams and soul

Wait I just realized that kinda makes no sense

nevermind

[autumn umbra]

why do the dream warrior fights happen irl and the three dream bosses in the dream world

isn't that arbitrary

[bitter vault]

Maybe because the dream waarior fights are external memories of how they were (hence why we access those fights through physical reminders of them) and the dream bosses are an idealized version of the boss inside their own mind

Like the dream warriors are memories of what they were really like, so they exist in the real world
But the dream bosses only exist in the mind of the boss so they literally can’t be in the real world

[autumn umbra]

that makes sense ig

[dire lynx]

warrior dreams are imprints of people left on the world like the spirits in the glade, dream bosses are the idealised/remembered forms constructed in the minds of someone

[drifting walrus]

So like a shade but with essence?

[dire lynx]

yes, you could say that of the warrior dreams

[viscid ridge]

Yea dream ghost: memory of the person from another bug

Dream fight: Last dream/memory of someone you fought, or in mylas case a very big obsession with zote

[prime mantle]

shade lord uses soul and attains his form through the dream nail

[craggy smelt]

vessels use Soul when they have their shell - without it, the Shade casts entirely Void-based versions of their spells
and the dream nail is a tool they use, it's not really a part of the Knight

though that does make me wonder if the Knight still has it, and if not what's become of it...

[viscid ridge]

I wonder whats up with the weaver architecture at the pale lake. I would assume there would have been a weavenest there, but its just a lore tablet.

And all throughout development there doesn't seem to have been any plans to put a weavenest there, even though the spike pillar stuff for them is still there

Maybe in the future, if we (maybe) get some sort of diving ability there will be a secret weavenest under the lake, even though i think its unlikely given shakras masters room is right under the lake

[craggy smelt]

diving would be pretty insane

you'd have to check every water source everywhere for hidden content

including maggot water and freezing water

[pale narwhal]

silk is just a physical manifestation of soul

[wispy drum]

Ok can someone please clear this up for me, a lot sentences in silksong refer to the green princes as loving each other and coupling but their brothers aren't they? If someone could clear this up at all I would greatly appreciate it

[jagged sun]

They're not brothers, it's said that they were born at the same time and looked similar, so that's why they were the rulers

[wispy drum]

@jagged sun ah thank you Ive been confused about that for months

[jagged sun]

No worries

Plus they aren't frogs

Nor is Groal

I know the lore of basically everything at this point lmao

[wispy drum]

Isn't groal just a fat fly?

[jagged sun]

He's just a normal stiltkin (the other humanoid enemies in Bilewater) but since he took a snail shaman's soul, he became bloated for the soul to have space, like the Soul Sanctum Scholars in Hollow Knight

[muted lantern]

Im not sure where this comes from, i don't think they were ever implied to be related.

i might just be forgetting smthn tho

[wispy drum]

I always thought the twin hearts ment they were twins

[muted lantern]

They are called the conjoined heart I think. I imagine it more being representing them being soulmates than anything else. He seems to have his and his lovers heart stored in his chest after the lovers death.

[wispy drum]

Good point

Also here's a cogwork dancers video with lyrics

https://youtu.be/nMiyR9IDoX4?si=CFWD4SQxE2nkNhsi

Sounds great

[south estuary]

i think its really just because theyre the same species

but we never really got a full confirmation on what the other green prince looked like

if anything they could be like a totally different hue or whateevr

while it iss likely that the other green prince looked identical to the green prince that we meet

ari could have tweakedd the other green princes design if we ever see it to distinguish who is who

[dreamy onyx]

personally I think he's a toadbug

[nocturne wraith]

Am I the only one that thinks Groal is some kind of frog. The mouth definitely gives off frog vibes

And we know hk doesn't exclusively have insects in it because it has arachnids and gastropods in it as well

So it wouldn't be crazy to assume Groal is a frog that's just extremely adapted to Bilewater

[dreamy onyx]

I guess if you really want to get technical, the Hollow Knight universe has bugs in the colloquial sense of the word

I think minibeast is the proper term

frogs aren't a part of that

[soft mason]

i hv a question

[dreamy onyx]

what is it?

[soft mason]

why does hornet need to learn silk skills when we alr seen her using in hk

plot hole ?

[dreamy onyx]

I think it's because of her being weakened

With the whole rune cage shenanigans at the start of the game

[soft mason]

she rested on a bench n bcuz she weakened i dont think she will forgot

[dreamy onyx]

I don't think she forgot, she might have just needed her power back

Which she can get from the statues

[soft mason]

hmmm the game says we learned the skill tho

[silk eagle]

Yup I think so too

[dreamy onyx]

Thanks retep

[turbid dirge]

Potatoes

[vapid moat]

Hornet also “learns” to create silk again so I think it’s because she was weakened

[frosty gate]

No?

Wait, are we talking about the tutorial or what=

[maiden meteor]

doesn’t Hornet mention that cage runes drained her power

It seems that knowledge and power is sort of interconnected for weavers

[eternal timber]

It was pretty much the silk cage, yeah

[high horizon]

fgfffffffffffff

[tight anchor]

Why are the valves in deep docks stuck

[dapper kite]

lol

[jaunty garden]

<iframe src="https://scratch.mit.edu/projects/1275879052/embed" allowtransparency="true" width="485" height="402" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[sick cobalt]

If the paleking granted the bugs intelligence and that any common bug who leaves hallownest loses their intelligence then how are the bugs of pharloom intelligent in the first place? Did some other higher being grant them intelligence like how grandmother silk granted the weavers intelligence?

[heavy gyro]

Some bugs gain sapience on their own

Like the deepnest bugs, the mantis tribe, the hive, etc

[sturdy knot]

There might have been annother wyrm or something, it could be that everyone has a mask in pharloom / never needed one

The citadel replaced a lot of the environment just to build itself and it’s important infrastructure

Masks can also maintain the intelligence given outside of its boundaries

[low oracle]

The Pale King explicetely granted sapience to these bugs. Other bugs don't need the beacon, but these ones do.

Masks are not the explanation by the way. A mask can be a mask, but it can also be a face. A mask can also be a mask, which is however organic and part of the bug.
A shell can also refer to the face/head of a bug, though it commonly also includes their body as well.

[wind stratus]

One thing that always confused me is grey root.
But let me know is I’m crazy because there is definitely something to do with the fact that gray is close to white. And on top of that a there’s a lot of similarities between grey root and the white lady, they both resemble trees they both have similar looking root balls and they both act slightly like a parasite digging roots into the world around them. All that to say I feel grey root has something to do with the pale beings

[stray fog]

Another similarity between greyroot and the white lady is their eyes

[wind stratus]

Good point

I don’t really know what it could imply but there is definitely something idk if there would be any thing but I might look at some dialogue to see if there’s any thing interesting

[stray fog]

Yeah idk what the implications would be either

[tawdry flare]

Did you try to embed a Scratch game in the Silksong lore channel

[arctic glen]

Yep

Soo loke

Is no one here

Hello

Dead ig

[vestal oyster]

hornet will leave pharloom

[limpid summit]

That’s pretty neat

Makes sense enough

[stark marten]

maybe the previous wyrm?

[tepid marsh]

guys you think team cherry will make an 3 gamethe

game*

[fleet sparrow]

Depends on if they feel finished after the dlc-s or not

[edgy nebula]

probably not one about hk, probably in another universe

[tepid marsh]

is the with the most sense idea

[fleet sparrow]

I personally think they see more potential in the series though, due to areas like the City of Steel etc.
The game might be in another genre though

[tepid marsh]

bcs or they do an game on sherma or boh

[finite wind]

the game is mianly about bugs, and I think most bug types have already been explored enough

there's more ideas for extra dlc, but I don't think you can come up with more unique ideas for an entire HK game without feeling too similar to the ones we got

and I think another game with the whole pale being bad vs void good wouldn't be interesting

but I can't imagine TC giving us another game without containing some HK elements at least

[vestal oyster]

i really hope there is more enemies added that aren't infected and KNOW what they are doing and that they want to kill protagonist

[vapid moat]

I feel like a game where we play as the hollow knight (or similar form of combat style) could work as a unique addition

[finite wind]

I feel like there's lot of that type too in sk

[finite wind]

people are already having trouble manouvering hornet and therefore calling the game hard, with how big he is, I don't think they can pull it off without having to create an unreasonable huge kingdom. And again, which ideas are there left to explore in the world of hk?

[vestal oyster]

maybe a dlc/game with just those types of enemies would be crazy. infected/haunted enemies fought and defended themselves from instinct now imagine a whole map of trained sane enemies that want to assassinate you

like steel assassin sharpe

[finite wind]

it wouldn't be much different from what we already got

mantis ants and bilewater people are not infected and they want to kill you

and there's not really much difference with how regular enemies work

they make equally caulculated decisions as other infected bugs from the citadel for example

[vapid moat]

I think TC have more lore ideas we haven’t seen yet, also for as a (somewhat) writer I can see space for new unique forms of story left in HK that will fit in the current lore

[finite wind]

idk, to create a whole game idk, and it would fall into the same themes of hk with pale beings and void

and again, which unique bug types are there to explore yet

[vapid moat]

Snail shamans?

[finite wind]

as an enemy?

[vapid moat]

As a kingdom maybe

[finite wind]

I don't think that would make much sense

[vapid moat]

Their void obsession starting the process we see taking place in pharloom and hallownest is an interesting direction for a further game to take story wise

[finite wind]

I wish they made a hk like game revolving sea animals but no more void vs pale beings

I think the rest of the pure HK ideas will be put in sk dlcs and that's it

and maybe some spinoff comic or sth else like that

[vapid moat]

I feel like void and pale beings define the world of HK, not sure a game would work without at least one

[finite wind]

it would feel repetitive, the surprise factor of void appearing in a sequel is already gone

[vapid moat]

Also with how silksong started those “dlc” ideas could turn into a whole new game

[silver tundra]

Who do you guys think was a worse parent/monarch? Pale King or GMS?

[vapid moat]

Pale King

[finite wind]

I don't reckon GMS doin anything good for anyone besides creating people

[vapid moat]

Monarch wise GMS isn’t really a ruler

[silver tundra]

is he considered to be evil? i thought he was really bad at whatever he was tryna do regarding the radiance and void lol

[vapid moat]

Tbh I missed the monarch part of the question at first

[silver tundra]

I think it was First Sinner that said GMS lied about her children being divine

[silver tundra]

True it was moreso the Weavers that were the monarch since they wanted to not have mom wake up

Since GMS has a beastly nature

Unless I'm missing something

[vapid moat]

Yeah that’s true, but I think using it to drive a story could still be good

[finite wind]

depends, the only "evil" thing he did to me was unifying hallownest without asking for permission, but in the end, it was better for the people I think

[silver tundra]

I think because Pale Beings by nature wanna control/have authority over others, it can be considered as an evil thing.

But ion think the Pale King was evil.

[vapid moat]

Though maybe a game exploring essence and dreams (maybe through the grimm troupe or something) would be better (sorry for switching topics)

[silver tundra]

Wait wtf is The Raidance? A God yeah? Do we know the origins of The Raidance besides being a moth?

[vapid moat]

Dreams?

Essence maybe

[silver tundra]

Mmmm gotcha I see

[vapid moat]

I don’t remember if it’s explained more than that

[limpid summit]

Radiance is a being made of essence

We don’t know where she came from or much about her

[silver tundra]

I won't lie I wasn't really understanding what The Radiance exactly wanted to do besides control everyone through the orange goop

Like her motivations or beliefs

[vapid moat]

They were jealous of the pale king

[silver tundra]

Wdym?

[vapid moat]

Because the moth tribe started to worship him over her

[silver tundra]

Oh word?

[vapid moat]

And she started to fade (if I remember correctly)

[silver tundra]

Idk why it's my first time hearing about this lol

[limpid summit]

In her last dialogue the Seer gives us a timeline

The folk of my tribe were born from a light. Light similar to Essence, similar to that powerful blade, though much brighter still. They were content to bask in that light and honoured it... for a time.
But another light appeared in our world... A wyrm that took the form of a king.
How fickle my ancestors must have been. They forsook the light that spawned them. Turned their backs to it... Forgot it even.
And so this kingdom was born from that betrayal. But the memories of that ancient light still lingered, hush whispers of faith... Until all of Hallownest began to dream of that forgotten light.

We don’t know why the moths gravitated towards PK

But he probably didn’t even try and force them

Maybe the idea of a larger society was appealing

[vapid moat]

I thought it’s because he was brighter

[limpid summit]

Could have been

In the sense that they were physical creatures and would have had to go into dreams to bask in Rad’s light

[vapid moat]

Also is the pale king even evil?

[finite wind]

idk the radience is an unreasonable asshole

[limpid summit]

Not really

[vapid moat]

I mean he’s not all that great but I don’t think he’s evil level

[finite wind]

like sure, your people "forgot" you but you could at least try to reason with them

[silver tundra]

Brooooooo how the hell did I not remember this I seriously gotta replay Hollow Knight

[limpid summit]

The game paints him as an efficient yet distant ruler who regretted what he did

[finite wind]

and why go after the whole kingdom who had nothing to do with anything

[silver tundra]

I don't think he's evil I think he's bad at being king cuz he was messing with things he didn't understand.

[vapid moat]

I thought she wasn’t powerful enough to take on the pale king directly

[finite wind]

what choice did he have

[finite wind]

and?

[vapid moat]

So she corrupted what he built to be remembered and grow powerful again

She is made of essence

I think she would fade if fully forgotten

[silver tundra]

I mean it's one thing to try and contain the raidance via the vessels which made sense, but that whole thing about tryna make an eternal kingdom by harnessing Void was a pretty bad move.

[finite wind]

she just needed her people

[vapid moat]

“No cost too great”

[vapid moat]

I mean their mostly dead by the time of the game

[finite wind]

I thought he only messed up with the void to deal with the radience

[vapid moat]

Yeah he did

[silver tundra]

"No mind to think."

I'll never forget the chills I got from reading those dialogue climbing up The Abyss.

[finite wind]

I think that's because of the consequences of the whole infection thing

[finite wind]

this game is just chills everywhere

it's better after playing it again

[silver tundra]

Yeahh

[finite wind]

the fact that we see the radience statue without knowing anything about her

or the seer saying her name before dying

[vapid moat]

Probably; she may have just wanted to tear everything the pale king built

[silver tundra]

I know I shouldn't be saying this, but I really wish Silksong had more Void stuff.

[finite wind]

just thinking about it is givinf me chills

[silver tundra]

I really miss HK being centered around Void.

[silver tundra]

Yeahhh

[vapid moat]

I hope the next game has more (though the inclusion of VGFocus has given me many lore ideas)

[silver tundra]

Yeahhh or even a DLC expansion

I really hope there's a DLC where we go back to Hallownest

I think that'd be nice

Ooooh or the City of Steel DLC

So many DLCs they gotta do they might as well make a new game

[vapid moat]

If they keep up with all endings working that probably won’t happen (returning to hallownest)

[finite wind]

I don't think the issue was the abscence of void, I think the thing that made us not connect with sk lore that much was that firstly, it wasn't so cryptid hence no need to investigate or theorize that much, then, that we knew a lot of the hk universe form the first game, like its rules and everything, and finally, that hornet is not really that connected with the events of pharloom as the knight in hk

hell, not even pharloom is connected with itself

[silver tundra]

But I wanna dap up my dude PV

[finite wind]

the non citadel areas have nothing to do with the rest of the game for the most part

or don't show much influence

[vapid moat]

Tbf it took years to “fully” figure out hollow knights lore

Time will tell what we figure out

[finite wind]

if you wanna experience hk for the "first time" again, watch about olivers playtrhough

it was so good

[silver tundra]

Hmmm..

[vapid moat]

Like for instance I inferred based on the abyss shriek dream nail dialogue and the sister of the void silksong ending that VGFocus is made up of the vessels (and their desire or will) instead of the other way around

I could be wrong of course

[silver tundra]

Does Void have a will? I can't remember

[finite wind]

it does

but I'm a bit iffy on the details of hk lore, specially regarding void and godhome

[silver tundra]

Was that always the case? Or is it after The Knight became Void's leader

[vapid moat]

Maybe a will to consume

[finite wind]

I think it always had

[silver tundra]

Ah okay

Yeah a will to consume feels accurate

[limpid summit]

The void has like a fragmented instinctual mind sort of

[vapid moat]

But I mean the will of the pale kings children in what I was talking about not the void part of them

[limpid summit]

But it can be overwritten by soul commands or an imprinted mind

[finite wind]

also, based on the shade's description and what we see on silksong, void is made of the regrets of people when they die

[silver tundra]

It always seems as natural chaos formed by the world's natural darkness

[finite wind]

hence why hornet has a void-self on her cocoon

[vapid moat]

I missed that, adds to what I was thinking a lot though

[silver tundra]

That makes a lot of sense actually idk how I didn't put that together

[finite wind]

no I didn't too, I just watched a video that explained it

and makes lot of sense

[vapid moat]

That adds the idea of the hearts that we use to get into the void

Story wise I mean

Not lore

[limpid summit]

Void probably isn’t literally regrets

In the context of the game it’s like a big regret metaphor because it represents the kingdom’s great sacrifice

But there’s nothing like regrets creating void

[finite wind]

idk, both the hunter and jiji refer to the void as regrets

[vapid moat]

Yes but to look beyond lore for a moment the void could be interpreted as regrets narratively and what we use to break through is the power of the past versions of rulers instead of the decayed regretful current ones

[limpid summit]

Hunter doesn’t directly

He refers to what we leave behind when we die

Cause he’s never seen a shade

[limpid summit]

Yeah narratively ofc

But like literally prolly not

Jiji talks about regrets because respawning isn’t canon so they had to give us some justification for why she would say that

[finite wind]

which is used in the description of a void being of our death character...

[vapid moat]

Also different interpretations of story exist and most are usually valid

[finite wind]

I don't see a reason why it isn't also an explaination for the void itself

[vapid moat]

Words don’t always hold a single meaning

[finite wind]

and why would they continue it with hornet

they could have just not do it

[limpid summit]

Well yeah because we died and regret it

[vapid moat]

I need to think on it but the inclusion of void in silksong may be for more than lore or to push the story forward

I mean it clearly is but I want to think of a reason it exists in it narratively

[vestal oyster]

how about in the third game it's just zote... in his boat

[finite wind]

I think that, from the first game, void is an important part of this world and that is everywhere according to hornet, and with this whole universe being about light vs dark, it just had to be included

[limpid summit]

It just being a primordial force that’s existed since time immemorial works too

The AC wanted void to cleanse them

I don’t think soaking in a regret bath would be so great

[finite wind]

well, they clearly didn't know much

otherwise, they wouldn't have gone extint

and I think it being about regrets would explain it's uncontrolable nature

[limpid summit]

They knew a ton

Arcane eggs void bowl black eggs shade gates

We aren’t sure why they died out

[finite wind]

maybe they did get a void bath

and well

it went exactly how it went for the collector's friend

and other hk bugs that got too much void in them

[vapid moat]

Ok so I looked into laces act 3 dialogue and if void is being interpreted as regrets narratively it puts her into an interesting place

Despite being void possessed and lost down there she holds no regrets

“Take the final plunge, spider. Join us in my drowning palace, and let oblivion swallow us all”

[finite wind]

isn't the lace version we talk to not void

[whole holly]

guys isn't it interesting how only groups that use Runes(i mean seals made from soul) are Shamans, Weavers and Pale Beings and their descendants, seemingly

[edgy nebula]

topic?

[vapid moat]

Well would we consider charms runes?

[whole holly]

i right now initiated rune discussion, idk

[whole holly]

depends, which charm?

[vapid moat]

Idk, what even are charms really

What about them grants power

[whole holly]

charm is something that materializes typically from wish of dying bug, runes are advanced soul manipulation, it is type of seal or similar to it i guess: https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Seals

[finite wind]

what is void

[whole holly]

i am not sure if Runes wiki page exists

[finite wind]

why would they depict a mario flytrap in a seal wtf

[vapid moat]

Yes but still the void possessed lace despite her holding no regrets, I need to look into other void killed and possessed beings to see if that’s a common theme (though from what I remember it is)

[finite wind]

ok, if you come up with a conclusion, tell me

[whole holly]

okay Void being regret is thematic at least in first game, silksong act 3 is hornet regretting her decisions and trying to fix them, so it is metaphorical

think embracing the void is coming to terms with it's origins, it wouldn't make sense for him to feel regret

[vapid moat]

I also think narratively hornets descend into it to kill GMS represents moving on

[whole holly]

his origins just so happened to involve sacrifice that Pale King and White Lady made and later came to regret

[whole holly]

i can see that interpretation

[vapid moat]

So I can’t find any good lists but I got enough, most of them seem to hold regrets, the bug you get the love key from was running from the collector even though they helped them, the pale king has a lot of regrets, Garmond couldn’t save his village, etc.

[vestal oyster]

so

what are we talking about

right now

[finite wind]

they can feel though

that's the whole point of hk in a way

[whole holly]

yeah, that's what i said

[finite wind]

I think the regretss of the knight when he dies (aka the shade) is not being able to fullfil his goal

aka, finish the game

[vapid moat]

The vessels and VGFocus (though they are one in the same to me) are the exception to the regret (so far) in that I believe them to be formed by the feeling of betrayal or desire for revenge of the pale kings children (specifically VGFocus as the vessels had outside influences)

[whole holly]

stabbing itself, made me feel bad for him, also Broken Vessel and Lost Kin death animation/cutscenes were proof that they can feel

[finite wind]

whats is VGFocus

[vapid moat]

Shade lord

[whole holly]

Void Given Focus

[finite wind]

yep

also, in silksong, the knight clearly feels for hornet

[vapid moat]

Godhome ending

[finite wind]

since he saved her for no good reason

[vapid moat]

Seeing the full design I can’t help but see a bunch of vessel designs mashed together

Especially the horns

Could also be a mockery of the pale king

[finite wind]

I think that's it

it could be a huge mass of pale king regrets yeah

but that wouldn't make much sense

I think it is the regrets of the vessels not being able to become THK

so they are mad and they kill the knight when he first comes in

[kindred ingot]

what's the topic today?

[vapid moat]

My favorite dream nail dialogue that adds to it is “our voices will cry out again”

[vapid moat]

Void (and it’s narrative use)

[kindred ingot]

oh
well, Void is pretty cool

[finite wind]

where is that dialogue from

[finite wind]

what it is specifically

I think johnatan or starpengu could help here

[limpid summit]

Abyss shriek statue

Dream nail dialog

[whole holly]

where is this cutscene from, i can't remember https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi_bRbf1N70

[vapid moat]

Godhome I believe the of pantheon four or after pure vessel in pantheon 5

[whole holly]

i remember it before godhome too

it is my fav cutscene, nobody talk about it for some reason

[vapid moat]

I know it’s from godhome

[foggy fractal]

its after pantheon 4 but only the first time you complete it

[whole holly]

i love it, it is my favorite

[foggy fractal]

its tuff!!!!!

[whole holly]

but what is with other vessels hearing radiance's scream? does it suggest Radiance was enemy of Vessels like she was for void? void and vessels seem to be on same side, i know they contain void but they seem to be presented as caught up in war between void and light, and they have void on their side, at least that's what is presents to me

are there other deeper meanings or implications?

[vapid moat]

It sets up VGFocus

[wind stratus]

The way I see it the vessels are almost entirely void at that point so they are essentially in the same boat as the grim kin like the personal army for there respective higher being

[vapid moat]

I prefer the interpretation that VGFocus is made of the vessels rather than the vessels being part of it

[wind stratus]

Sorry I’m kinda new what’s VGFocus?

[kindred ingot]

prob Void Given Focus

the Shade Lord

[wind stratus]

Thanks

[stone patrol]

i have a genuine theory HEAR ME OUT

If hornet heals by using her binds right? and those binds are gained by silk and silk is given by the enemies when you hit or kill them.
if she can use that bind to heal, that could possibly mean that she is made of silk?

i could be very stupid right now

but this is on my mind

https://klipy.com/gifs/it-is-pointless-pointless

[half horizon]

silk effectively works as a counterpart for soul, as suggested by the fact that GMS made Lance from silk and void, so maybe Hornet is actually a mixture of void, silk, and soul

[blissful harbor]

she wraps her wounds with her bind
she basically makes magic soul bandages

[half horizon]

btw maybe soul exists only in Hallownest. In silksong, the only moment where soul is mentioned is during the silk and soul quest and act 3 at some points, and maybe in some very specific journal/artifact entries. So it could be that soul is just one of the materials capable of interacting with void. Another thing that supports this theory is that we don't have any dream mechanics in silksong, instead, we have memories, which are stored/accessed with silk properties.

[blissful harbor]

what do dreams have to do with soul?

but we do see soul, groal fires some at us

[half horizon]

exactly, groal changed after he ingested soul, which indicates bugs in pharloom don't have soul, they rather have silk or some other material capable of interacting with void, maybe something similar to the material used by mask makers to stabilize a bug's void

[blissful harbor]

it’s a difference of magic cultures
it’s only mentioned in act 3 cause that’s when the shamans come out of hiding to do their soul shit

the other inhabitants use the silk of the land makes sense you wouldn’t just see raw soul around

wym stabilized a bugs void

[half horizon]

yes, that's why every bug (exept shamans, mask makers, and gms & lance) wear masks, the mask makers themselves explain this

[blissful harbor]

to stabilize void???

that’s not a thing

[half horizon]

Go talk to the Mask Maker in Deepnest or the one on Mount Fay—they’ll explain this to you if you don’t believe me

[blissful harbor]

pull up the quote

where he says that masks “stabilize void”

[wise parcel]

is gigachad genuinely stupid literally no HK character has ever said this 😭

[blissful harbor]

or they just misunderstood some dialogue

[wise parcel]

fair

[half horizon]

"For this kingdom's faceless, I shall provide. A mask! A face! Does it need one? Does it not? To define. To focus. To exist."

While the Mask Maker doesn't directly say "masks stabilize void" in a single sentence, the implication within the lore is that the masks (which are made of SOUL) provide form and, in some theories, intelligence to Void creatures, allowing them to exist in a stable state rather than as mindless, amorphous darkness like we see in the abyss.

The Mask Maker questions if the Knight understands the "face that hides beneath" their mask. This points to the idea that the mask is a shell that keeps the chaotic Void (the "truth most tragic") contained or controlled. It also explains why radiance doesn't need a mask, as she does not have void (we use void to eliminate her), so there is nothing to be stabilized.

Plus, at mount fay, if you remove the mask maker's mask, they will say that it becomes much harder to make masks, probably because now they don't have anything to stabilize their void anymore.

Moreover, the knight is literally deprived from soul, hence you need to collect soul from other entities to use soul abilities and bind, and thus, the only thing their mask could be stabilizing would be their own void. In contrast, sylphs (like Eva in silksong) do not have void, and consequently, don't need a mask. But they are closely tied to silk (sylphsong recovers silk), which indicates silk is a versitile material that can be used as a means for existance itself or to stabilize void

[half horizon]

sybau

[spark valve]

Silk is soul

Bugs don’t contain void

Every part of this is nonsense

[blissful harbor]

the only case where a “mask” effects void is the vessels
and it’s not even a mask thing really it’s the fact they have holy shells

that mask maker dialogue to TK is about its shade inside the shell, it’s not literally talking about masks almost all of that dialogue in the first game is metaphorical

and again idk what you mean about mask maker and other bugs having void inside of them, they don’t

[half horizon]

if it was metaphorical we wouldn't need masks

[blissful harbor]

it can be both, mask maker in deepenedt is talkijng about the vessels in metaphors about masks, thats simply just a fact

and loke, you don’t need a mask

maskless bugs and ig faceless bugs too, do exist

[half horizon]

those are rare and specific exceptions, like that shamans (capable of interacting with void/soul), mask makers (literally the ones that make masks), and entities that can either control void through other means (GMS, lace, Pale King, etc) or don't have void at all. But I am pretty sure bugs are made of void as they have a dark substance in them, which I though was clearly void, gotta review my assumptions then

[edgy nebula]

skarr scout

karmelita

karaka

verdanian

[blissful harbor]

still not all bugs need or wear a mask, mask maker literally says this in like hii first few lines

“A mask, A face. Does it need one? Does it not? […]”

“A difficult thing to discern, mask and face”

last quote ain’t exactly but whatever my memory

and yea
bugs don’t just have void in them

[half horizon]

all of them have natural masks, they are born with masks that are part of their shells

[blissful harbor]

where is Karms mask

[spark valve]

Bugs are not made of void or with void or anything like that

[half horizon]

her face is a mask

[edgy nebula]

and so every face can be considered a mask

so why do bugs without masks need masks

[half horizon]

yes

[blissful harbor]

what

[drifting walrus]

I think he’s talking about the swirling eyes potentially being void related

[blissful harbor]

it’s her face

[edgy nebula]

so masks are entirely redundant indeed

[half horizon]

unles they don't have a face, such as the shamans or the mask makers

[spark valve]

Who have faces

[half horizon]

or the dreamer

[blissful harbor]

The sight seems to be something unique

[edgy nebula]

dreamers have faces

herrah is a weaver we see weaver's faces

[half horizon]

no they don't, you can see they wear masks, it is pretty clear

[blissful harbor]

the dreamer masks were created for the vessel project

[spark valve]

😐

[blissful harbor]

they were alive before then, they didn’t always were those

[half horizon]

that guy that helps you access the professor's dream literally carries that dreamer's mask on his head

[drifting walrus]

Quirrel literally has the dreamers mask

[spark valve]

Dreamers do in fact have faces under their masks lmao

[half horizon]

quote?

[half horizon]

what face?

[spark valve]

Do you know what a mask is

No obviously not

[blissful harbor]

there is no quote it’s common sense

not to mention herrah literally telling hornet “will you remember the face before the mask” or something similar

[spark valve]

I don’t even know where to begin

[edgy nebula]

can i get a rundown of mask/face lore real quick i dont remember much of it

[spark valve]

There isn’t really any mask makers just use the terms interchangeably to talk about the concept of identity

[half horizon]

pretty much but identity has an ontological significance in the hollow knight universe

[edgy nebula]

in that case why do they make masks

do they just like sculpting

[half horizon]

that's my point

[edgy nebula]

and why do they need pale lacquer

[half horizon]

if it was pointless they wouldn't be making masks

[spark valve]

Not a clear reason currently but the masks they make clearly don’t match anything else

[edgy nebula]

mmm

[spark valve]

So they’re not making masks anything actually wears

[half horizon]

why do you say so?

[spark valve]

Not being blind

[edgy nebula]

what if they made masks for the ancient civilization thatd be cool

[blissful harbor]

i mean, some creatures do indeed seem to be buyers
styx has a collection of masks

[spark valve]

Which don’t match anything they make

[half horizon]

yeah, but that's for aesthetics

[edgy nebula]

? no he wears all of them

[light verge]

doesn’t maskmaker in HK literally say he’s providing for the faceless

[limpid summit]

That’s sort of like he makes costumes for people who want to adopt a different identity

Like the distant village spider

Its finger puppets are masks

[half horizon]

You wear all your clothes as well, but that's for aesthetics, and only some times for specific activities

[limpid summit]

Hi hi shal

[edgy nebula]

it's pretty likely he changes personality with all of them

[light verge]

sup apple, enjoying the show?

[half horizon]

that's actually a good point, maybe they are like doctors. If a bug cracks their natural mask for some reason, they might want to replace it with an artifical mask

[edgy nebula]

still so bummed it never got revealed

[limpid summit]

Sort of I just got here

What’s going on

[half horizon]

yea, basically "behavioral" aesthetics

[limpid summit]

Dude I remember that emote

It’s been so long

[half horizon]

he doesn't need all those masks

[edgy nebula]

yooo what if skynx is a puppet for another huge spider

thatd be so epic

[light verge]

just this, lots of crackpot mask theories tn

[half horizon]

he just "wants to have several masks/identities"

[light verge]

I think you guys may be construing your words a lil too much, if anything there’s a fairly good, but fairly out of date doc on masks in HK

[half horizon]

but if identity changes depending on the mask you use, doesn't that mean masks literally DEFINE/FOCUS one's identity, whatever that is?

[half horizon]

wym?

[light verge]

one sec I gotta unbury it

[edgy nebula]

they dont he just has split personality disorder probably

or he loves to larp

[limpid summit]

I don’t think I ever read the mask doc I’ve always hated mask discussion

Now SS made it worse

But I’m sure it’s well written

Post it

[edgy nebula]

actually some do

[spark valve]

Mask discussion has always been stupid yes

[edgy nebula]

i dont think styx’s do tho

[half horizon]

but it is implicit from mask maker dialog and other NPC interactions that masks define a bug's identity and focus/stabilizes something, whatever such thing is

[limpid summit]

Not literally

He’s conflating the importance of masks to accentuate the metaphor

[edgy nebula]

tammo has already explained mask makers are being metaphorical

im bad with metaphorical stuff

[half horizon]

but then masks would be redundanct, which they clearly aren't, else we wouldn't have mask makers and most bugs wouldn't have a mask, even natural ones

[light verge]

To my knowledge this is pretty out of date but it’s a good starter imo https://www.google.com/url?q=https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qAnJexcymTrZbkoKlSLkPm2fZgOIEgmIdunX6kiquJs/edit?usp%3Dsharing&sa=D&source=editors&ust=1770691804204086&usg=AOvVaw3ZwK33fWv713mnXRsF0a1B

[limpid summit]

To change a face; to conceal it fully within another... A powerful protection that is, but one with sad consequence.
The original mind is destroyed, though those of striking will may still retain a sliver of that concealed self.

You can tell he’s mostly being metaphorical because he’s just not even right about this

[limpid summit]

Oh bet

[fresh badger]

Shal what is that link damn

[light verge]

blame sumwan

[edgy nebula]

what is he talking about here?

[limpid summit]

Thank you Quirrel comic for confirming it was a mask

I had no idea

God this comic was so hard

[sinful nimbus]

I thought he had two faces

[limpid summit]

Probably a Quirrel reference

[light verge]

Technically not wrong since masks ARE faces

[limpid summit]

Monomon concealed Quirrel’s identity within a literal mask to protect the Vessel project

[edgy nebula]

mm

[sinful nimbus]

The comic is tuff but "seek your wonders but know you may find someone waiting" is a miss from hornet

[limpid summit]

My headcanon was he actually helped make the Dreamer masks

But now he’s just a dude

[blissful harbor]

sameee

[spark valve]

It’s a solid line

[limpid summit]

God HK has so many more PK Rad nature order parallels than I remember

Genuinely what an expertly built parallel

[half horizon]

but that just confirms masks have a specific function

[limpid summit]

Some masks do

And it’s not even all the same

[sinful nimbus]

It makes sense it just doesn't sound very cool icl

[limpid summit]

Godseeker masks are different from Quirrel’s mask which differs from Grimm Troupe masks (which don’t actually do that much)

[edgy nebula]

grimm troupe's masks are really weird

they physically change your body mass

[sinful nimbus]

I never noticed it until I was locked into the Hornet hating mindset

[limpid summit]

It’s the “forms dreamed” that does the changing I think the mask is just a metaphor for the sway the troupe has

[sinful nimbus]

forms dreamed or wtv

[half horizon]

that's because they define identity. If they were all the same bugs would have the same identity

[sinful nimbus]

🐌 😔

[half horizon]

or similar psyche

[limpid summit]

Brumm had a full mask Divine has a half mask

[edgy nebula]

aah true actually i forgot nmh did that

[limpid summit]

Her identity is preserved she has her own agenda

[limpid summit]

NMH really does whatever man

[half horizon]

anyways gotta go now

I'm waking up at 5:30am tomorrow

[limpid summit]

Why does he think Boon is some idiot just because it has a different dialect

[light verge]

aye, great time to start the day

[light verge]

WHAT

[half horizon]

[light verge]

just because he calls boon “it”? ☹️

[sinful nimbus]

I would question what someone was thinking if they went "mrmrmrmrmrmrmr" too tbf

[limpid summit]

God Hornet was actually moving different pre Silksong holy shit

The boss before you unlock them as a playable character

[light verge]

what being in a cage does to mf

[sinful nimbus]

"simple bug"

She got a superiority complex man

[edgy nebula]

she was racist from the start, we just didnt know it yet

[sinful nimbus]

Did she never meet Quirrel

[light verge]

it is interesting that hornet doesn’t recognize quirrel here. She recognizes the mask though, it does make me question if Quirrel would have had a great part in making the dreamer masks considering hornets connection to herrah

[sinful nimbus]

ig he might not have been very high ranking

[edgy nebula]

so are masks sometimes magic sometimes not sometimes personality changing sometimes not

[sinful nimbus]

pretty much

[blissful harbor]

i’d say the magic masks are a lot rarer

[edgy nebula]

masks are everything and nothing

what is team cherry doing

[light verge]

they have a variety of uses, but to focus, and define seem to be common.

[sinful nimbus]

they like enchanted rings but for HK

[limpid summit]

Yeah actually wait

I guess not?

[sinful nimbus]

Quirrel was just a random janitor in the archives Monomon chose to be discreet

[limpid summit]

Wait so Monomon called Quirrel right

Not Rad or THK

[sinful nimbus]

yeah

[limpid summit]

Then who did call TK

[sinful nimbus]

"Did she call you too then" or something like that

[blissful harbor]

Rad unintentionally

[edgy nebula]

why does mask maker make a distinction on faces and masks only for them to be interchangeable

[sinful nimbus]

"A call beyond the seals" so not the dreamers

[edgy nebula]

is this yet another blessing of tc's immaculate writing?

[light verge]

It might be part of some “retcon” territory it’s sorta weird

[blissful harbor]

when she broke thk’s shell she screamed out “hell yea” and it was like a sleeper agent signal for all the alive vessels

[light verge]

because in SS faces are completely replaced with the word mask

[sinful nimbus]

i mean the point of that dialogue is that its kinda hard to tell tbf

[limpid summit]

I think here he means mask metaphorically

[edgy nebula]

actually i guess not because

[limpid summit]

“Is this person being transparent or are they hiding their true self?”

Is what he’s saying

[edgy nebula]

actually i dont know

[edgy nebula]

mmm i could see that

[limpid summit]

Why would Quirrel know about the Nailsmith anyway

Was there only one

[light verge]

Are you referring to when quirrel tells the knight to go upgrade his nail?

[limpid summit]

Yeah

[light verge]

chances are he stumbled upon him first imo

[limpid summit]

He’s like “I remember someone telling me about him”

“I can even remember his face”

Or something

[light verge]

I’m double checking that weeew

[limpid summit]

Maybe I’m wrong

[light verge]

oh yeah no you’re exactly right

never noticed before, guess there WAS only one nailsmith

[limpid summit]

Ok wait I’ve had this discussion before

I think

To think, such a small creature would bear this kingdom's fate.

This is his Monomon dnd

Do you think by Monomon/Blue Lake he knows what you are

Ogrim does

...Incredible...

[edgy nebula]

he probably knows your role but not what you are

ogrim specifically knows youre a vessel though

[light verge]

I think if quirrel knew about the vessels, hornet may haven’t of called him some “common bug”

[spark valve]

Dunno why one would stipulate that he knows about the vessels

[light verge]

why not?

pretty obtuse thing to say imo

[spark valve]

He knows the knight is doing something involving breaking the seals there doesn’t need to be specific knowledge about vessels to know it’s doing something important

[light verge]

Given the Hollow Knight is known to the residents of hallownest, it’s entirely possible quirrel surmised the knight as a vessel too based on appearance

it’s only after CoT that quirrel would learn about the hollow knight’s look and role based on the statue

[limpid summit]

I think if the knights who didn’t help at all were privy to PK’s “cruel means” the attendant to the scholar who documented the entire project also would

[limpid summit]

I would agree but maybe not abt this

[light verge]

He probably doesn’t recall though, given his amnesia right?

[limpid summit]

Just cause vessels look like average joes

[sinful nimbus]

The cruel means seems to be about locking THK away since he doesn't know there were other vessels

[spark valve]

Knowing THK exists and knowing what it is or that there are others is different

Ogrim didn’t even know others existed until he met TK and that’s only after presumably having pretty direct contact with it

[sinful nimbus]

The archive held info about the nature of the vessels though so its plausible Quirrel might know somewhat

[limpid summit]

Yeah that’s what I’m saying

How is Ogrim even able to recognize TK as a vessel

[spark valve]

I’m not saying it’s impossible I’m saying there’s not much reason to assume either way

[limpid summit]

Okay wait I’m not saying Quirrel always knew

I’m asking if after he regained some of his memory he had the same realization Ogrim did

[spark valve]

Maybe

[limpid summit]

Letsgooo

[finite wind]

Zylotol doesn't sing when infected

Interesting

[edgy nebula]

?

[finite wind]

?

Oh he sings when he is fully dead

But not before

[muted lantern]

So green princes became rulers because they hunted a magic deer?

[spark valve]

Pretty much

[muted lantern]

No wonder their kingdom fell

[stray fog]

Plasmium lifeforms have no dreamnail dialogue and no needolin dialogue

Across both games

[finite wind]

.

[stray fog]

Ig we can count that as a non plasmified being

[edgy nebula]

craziest part is it might not have even been as magic as in the memory

[finite wind]

Idk he seems more plasmified or equal at best compared to just a moments before

[muted lantern]

Tbf claiming you have a divine right to rule because you killed a endangered animal isnt too farfetched for a medieval ruler.

Mfs would do anything to say they had a divine right to some shit

[edgy nebula]

true actually

[muted lantern]

Weavers probably imprisoned first sinner as her claim challenged their own belief of a "divine right to rule"

[stray fog]

I've see enough
Declare these 2 the divine god emperors of the multiverse

[muted lantern]

Tbf though if palestag is pale it would make sense for it to have some kinda soul magic

[muted lantern]

So both princes were green right?

Gp says "we princes green" when referring to them

just asking because in fanon i often see the other one is a different color.

[craggy smelt]

yeah, they were probably just flat-out identical

maybe they had proper names, back when there was two of them

you only need to call the survivor 'Green Prince' now though...

no one will be confused about who you mean, cuz the other one is dead

[edgy nebula]

there's a cut needolin ghost of the two princes embracing and one of them has different antennae but the ghost in the fight is identical so they were probably made to be completely identical in the final version

[muted lantern]

Also are the verdanir kids or are green princes just really huge for their species.

Hornet makes no comment about their youth

like she does for the skarr scouts

so i imagine gp is just big

[craggy smelt]

I think they're just big

some kind of royal caste, maybe

[edgy nebula]

verdanir seem to be just different types of green prince's species or they might just be really tall

hornet does refer to gp as tall bug

[craggy smelt]

some pop out of eggs, I think?

I assume those are the kids

[finite wind]

Did hornet really kill green prince for no reason

[edgy nebula]

kindanir pop out of eggs

[finite wind]

And why did the tablet say they were cursed

[edgy nebula]

them being babies are in their names aswell

kin-danir

[craggy smelt]

kidanir

[edgy nebula]

kinda yeah

[edgy nebula]

children born on the same beat were prophesied to be forever cursed

[craggy smelt]

he does actually try to kill her first
she is snooping and that's rude, but still...

[finite wind]

And in her diary she calls him vain lmao

[muted lantern]

Also is Escalion a different species or is it a form of sexual dimorphism?

[finite wind]

Idk, I think she never seem in danger in his dream

Since when she dies she just returns

[edgy nebula]

"leave me to grieve this final time"
"ok"
proceeds to pry in his sacred memories and then kill him and insult him in her death journal

[finite wind]

Literally

[muted lantern]

Hornet the ceo of homophobia

joking

but unironically why does she do green prince like that

killing him i mean

theres no way she knows about him having one of the hearts she needs.

nobody tells her about it

[craggy smelt]

could be the Elegy for the Deep spell, somehow informing her

it becomes active near him

I don't think you can use the Elegy anywhere else but in the presence of an Old Heart

[edgy nebula]

every heart has this weird web around them idk if it's lore significant

ive never seen anyone bring it up though

[craggy smelt]

you can find silken memories here and there, the ones around the heart might be special ones that only the Elegy can reach deeply enough to access

the oldest, most significant memories from Pharloom's forgotten past

[muted lantern]

Silk seems to have ties to essence and therefore memories

[desert mango]

Silk is silk

But in a world of silk silk is song

[muted lantern]

what does that have to do with what i said lol

[desert mango]

Sry

Some lore question I have though is is that flower hornet gets in act 3 the delicate flower

[craggy smelt]

Silk is like Soul and Essence woven together
it can tap into memories and affect the body

and also blow stuff up with magic spells

(no wonder it can do literally anything...)

[muted lantern]

Its a recreation of the delicate flower pulled from her memories of it. which is why its less fragile

[desert mango]

Thanks

[desert mango]

That answers a couple of my questions

[gritty veldt]

it could also be less fragile because hornet isn't a being made of void like the knight

[alpine spruce]

⚠️ ACT 3 SPOILERS ⚠️

||TEHRE WAS A FREAKING VOID IN THIS KINGDOM TOO???????????????||

[vague whale]

same void, whole world

[alpine spruce]

BRO I KNEW IT

It's literally like this world's version of hell

But deadass I'm scared now

Cuz I know bullshit bouta happen when the ||void|| is involved 😭

[muted lantern]

Ye but I tend for my explanation because hornet says something about the bloom being far too fragile to survive, before the idea of the memory thing is proposed

[stray fog]

You should avoid this channel if you don't want spoilers

[muted lantern]

Ye all spoilers are allowed here

[alpine spruce]

well can i atleast ask who are the ||snail shamans|| then?

[muted lantern]

as in which characters are the snail shamans or who the snail shamans are as a whole in the lore.

[alpine spruce]

are they like, ||voids||?

just like in the|| pale king's|| thrown kids?

[edgy nebula]

no theyre just black

[alpine spruce]

ah i see

i just thought they prolly kinda villanous hence the ||silk and song|| quest

[placid ledge]

So hey is the ||mushroom language|| something you can just learn?

[graceful grail]

Guys, is there ANY possibility that this charm is talking about Widow at the end???

[dreamy onyx]

i dont think you have to spoil stuff here

[dreamy onyx]

it literally is lmao

it's implied the abyss wraps around the whole world

[graceful grail]

Or is just the center of the world…

[dreamy onyx]

yeah that's what I meant

[heavy gyro]

No because widow was the one weaver who never left pharloom

[muted lantern]

Not technically impossible, but i don't see why we would assume so, its not like it specifies only one weaver doing this

[stray fog]

I think so

[muted lantern]

tk learns it by having a charm that shoots mushroom spores. maybe hornet used to recreationally huff spores and now she understands them /j

[placid ledge]

I don't think the widow has anything to do with Hallownest as far as I understood. She is one of the few that remained in Pharloom. Maybe the only one I think

Other than maybe the first sinner... whom I am not sure if she is actually real or like an illusion

[muted lantern]

Also if widow was from hallownest shed recognize hornet as the gendered child if not by name.

[placid ledge]

I do still wonder why the Hallownest Weavers left... They seemed pretty safe and they left so much behind. Maybe it was like a cruisade?

Or maybe they served as bait so Hornet can grow up with less attention of Granny Silk?

Hornet never asks anyone about them so I think she'd know but she's not telling!
I want her to face the camera and deliver full exposition.

Game gets interrupted and she gives a lore lesson like Emperor's New Groove

[green dock]

Infection. If you mean pharloom then probably because they felt betrayed by gms and wanted autonomy.

[placid ledge]

I mean Hallownest. And I think Deepnest is safe from the infection? At least one Weaver stayed and they seemed okay

[green dock]

The infection affects every creature at different times. But its the most reasonable explanation as to why they left. Also deepnest is full of infected bugs and there are corpses of dead weavers in their lair.

[placid ledge]

Okay but of all places, why does the weaversong charm description say they went home? Thats like the least safe place they could have chosen. Or is that retconned?

Maybe they settled somewhere before deepnest but after Pharloom and thats what it means? Not like we have a ton of information...

Does Midwife say anything about where they went? I forgor...

[muted lantern]

The infection was taking over deepnest, they already had fled once from a angry goddess. they probably realized that if as far as they had run there was still a goddess consuming everyones minds, they might as well go back to the one they know and try to find a more permanent solution. It didn't end well for them but thats probably what they were thinking.

[craggy smelt]

also, if they had truly regarded Hornet as the savior of their people they'd hoped for, they might have been worried that if Silk ever came looking for the Weavers, she'd find their savior before she was ready

Vespa suggested that Hornet needed to be ready for those who would come for her - she might have known something about it, perhaps told by Herrah

[dreamy onyx]

imagine if in a future DLC we meet the weavers coming to pharloom

it would be pretty funny

[graceful grail]

Are these eyes infected?? I cant tell

[graceful grail]

They would need to take their sweet time.

[dreamy onyx]

they come through the sea of sorrow and hornet is just like hey auntie

[craggy smelt]

no

[placid ledge]

I diagnose her to be fiiiine

Honestly I really hope for more Hallownest-Weaver lore in Sea of Sorrow... not holding my breath tho

[muted lantern]

her eyes are just white, it seems thats just how weavers eyes looked before the redesign

[placid ledge]

Could be cause her mask if from a different mask maker...

[wind stratus]

I probably think that there will be more stuff on plasmium/lifeblood and they will also expand on the new area that they add but I expect they will add something like a wevenest to show some new lore on the wevers

[placid ledge]

Yeah thats my expectation as well, but hey you never know

[midnight reef]

yeah

chances are that Weavers just got a redesign between HK and Silksong

[spice cedar]

gotta ask, but-
Doesn't it feel kinda weird in regards to the whole of Grand Mother Silk's lore?

there's this weird blank between her creating the weavers. . . . Then being imprisoned..... And then the events of the game

like it's really scarce information for what is quite literally the main catalyst and inciting incident that creates pharloom AND the devastation and apocalypse currently happening to it

It's so weird

and even weirder is that as far as I am aware you get the most comprehensible explanation of all this through Mask Maker who- well, is Mask Maker.

idk I just kinda wish there was more about Grand Mother Silk and or the Weavers? From what I've seen all these past months their relationship seems to be more or less speculative based on things such as Lace and Phantom being wholly dependent on GMS to survive as supposedly a consequences of the Weavers having abandoned Grand Mother Silk and all that

It's all really cool stuff!
I just wish there was more of it

It kinda results to making GMS... kind of an underwelming figure once you learn the whole breath of the story? Like don't get me wrong, the room preceding her boss fight having cages literally spelling it out to you that she's been freaking genociding the weavers all across the world is very good in making me want to beat her ass up a whole lot

but for a story that's central to the Weavers, I do wish we got to see just a bit more of them in any way

probably a third "memory/vision" cutscene thingy like after getting the first silk heart or beating First Sinner would've tied things up pretty well

i mean don't get me wrong I fucking LOVE the dychotomy in these two

https://youtu.be/E86ZUn2Wz6E?t=7

. . .

gimme a moment-

[placid ledge]

Was it ever said how the weavers actually gained control over Granny Silk?

I think at some point they just kinda had her sleeping

Maybe Granny went to sleep herself? Maybe she has severe iron defincency

[craggy smelt]

with song
her cocoon is described as her 'protective form', so she might've been within it when they caged her with the song the Citadel generates

Widow's memory says '...For her light... eternal... our song sustains...' so they might've been singing for her originally, then they changed the song to cage her

[craggy smelt]

I think the implication from lore tablets and similar is that the Weavers found her rule burdensome, and FS' revelation tipped them over the edge to full-on rebellion
all the 'her sight escaped' and 'let one come to weave us free' stuff

[placid ledge]

They took over and gave power to the conducters who in turn used the architects and when the Weavers knew this was not sustainable they made plans, failed and then ran in all directions

They are kinda not looking very good in this whole thing if I'm thinking about it...

[craggy smelt]

the whole Citadel thing seemed to have been implemented precisely because the Weavers figured they wouldn't be able to do it themselves
they needed bugs to generate song on a vast scale, so they suckered tons of them into a big religion

they seem pretty shit all around

[placid ledge]

Honestly I don't know how bad Granny Silk's rule was but their job wasn't all that bad in return for a mind and possible eternal life

They had a good thing!

If they had known their place, done their job they'd be fine right now

[midnight reef]

its honestly a bit impressive

I do have to wonder who exactly made the first of the architects, I can only assume that they were made by the Weavers and tasked to build/maintain the Citidel

Wonder if that'd also mean the first architects were the more silver+white styling of the weavers technology/magic mix, with the red/brass coming it with later generations of the architects

[craggy smelt]

hey, it's Jcera

[craggy smelt]

yeah, I figured they were something like the servitors - i.e. 'living' machines

so maybe the first ones were more silvery

[midnight reef]

I still exist here ocassionally ;3

[wise parcel]

are the enemies in the wormways controlled by the haunting? (before act 3, as during act 3 plasmium infests everything elss)
and how does plasmium make them immune to the void? (or atleast not being effected)

[midnight reef]

They arent, iirc

they dont respond to the needolin like the bugs of Pharloom normally do

[wise parcel]

not even those weird ones that run at you?

[midnight reef]

the ones infected with lifeblood? yeah

[wise parcel]

that barely ever appear in the wormways lmao

[wise parcel]

theres a version of them in act 2 without plasmium iirc

[midnight reef]

well yeah, pretty sure they do respond to the needolin though

Yeah

[wise parcel]

gromlings do

groms do not

[midnight reef]

well yeah, the Groms are always moving, they dont spend enough time in the influence range of the Needolin for it to have an effect

the younger Gromlings are affected, though, and it'd be super odd if they just lost the influence of GMS with age, as its not a property seen in other bugs

[wise parcel]

would be quite odd yeah

[craggy smelt]

Plasmium/Lifeblood is suggested to derive from Essence/dream realm stuff, or at least be connected to it
it's light might serve to repel the Void, which has an aversion to light
or possibly Lifeblood repels the Haunting, which the Void needs to black thread stuff, so there's no way for the Void to flow to those creatures

[wise parcel]

true

also explains why plasmified zango never got haunted/re animated befor act 3 (also because he was fucking dead but still)

[craggy smelt]

they might be afflicted since they're born in the Wormways area - the other Groms seem to be moving through it
possibly some leave their eggs in nests in the area

[midnight reef]

I'd think that in the form we see it, the infection is just eating the silk to fuel growth
though I'd really only say thats likely if we saw it with the Radience, and the resulting enemies of the infected crossroads just didnt give soul

[wise parcel]

those enemies did give soul right

[midnight reef]

yeah

[wise parcel]

ok

[craggy smelt]

Lifeblood seems capable of producing even more extreme physical transformations, it could certainly be affecting the Haunting's silk

[midnight reef]

yeah

[craggy smelt]

doing all kinds of weird stuff with it, mutating it...

[midnight reef]

Its really cool, imo
I love that we see parrellels to the Radiance through Lifeblood

[wise parcel]

radiance

[craggy smelt]

Radio

[wise parcel]

Rad

[craggy smelt]

Abs Rad

[wise parcel]

https://tenor.com/view/i-could've-sworn-there-was-a-gif-of-this-whatever-squid-game-squid-game-edit-squid-game-edit-meme-i'm-so-scared-gif-12360771953743496060

(i havent even beaten pantheon 4 🗣 🔥)

[craggy smelt]

anyway, hope we get lots more Lifeblood lore (loreblood) in SoB

[midnight reef]

SoB?

[wise parcel]

sea of sorrow

[midnight reef]

Seas of Bees?

[craggy smelt]

it's a sob story

[wise parcel]

they meant sea of sorrow 😭

[midnight reef]

I know they meant Sea of Sorrow

;3

[craggy smelt]

[wise parcel]

but yeah seeing that cut area (the lab or whatever it was called) in the reveal trailer for sea of sorrow definitely means more plasmium stuff

not to mention zylotol says that his master found plasmium in ‘salt striken waters’

[midnight reef]

yeah

watch them have found a way to enslave the Lifeblood Beast we see in the background of the lifeblood core/that godhome room, or something stupid