sk-lore

[marble oasis]

Their needolin dialogue has other projection like “You! You’re the sinner!”

“I’m clean! I’m cleaner!”

[signal field]

oh yeah definitely

[craggy smelt]

this is pretty perfect honestly, I can't think of any actual sin that would be better

they just convinced a species that their ancestors had done wrong to shackle them to a life of service

[craggy smelt]

just like actual religions~!

[limpid summit]

https://tenor.com/view/chiyx-capalot-gif-3199362886808139892

Tell me this isn’t also peak

Man the Weavers really weren’t all that bad

[edgy nebula]

"yeah you were jaywalking so we're putting you in jail AND your future kids in jail for like forever, sorry"

[marble oasis]

Again everyone in the Citadel is in service

[limpid summit]

Do we actually know anything GMS did before

[marble oasis]

The Choirbugs even work partially in the Slab anyway

[limpid summit]

Like she fought Khann and Karmelita right

Why did the Weavers stop singing

[edgy nebula]

spied on her kids

[limpid summit]

They just got bored and tired

No other life

[edgy nebula]

i dont think so

[craggy smelt]

or like "Your great great grandparents were jaywalking, so you and your kids have to pay!"

[marble oasis]

When she was bored she would call a Weaver to her and tie two of their legs together and make them dance for her

[limpid summit]

Grand mother silk was a washed up pale being from the slums of the lands serene

[marble oasis]

They all laughed at her because her face was black so she wasn’t a real pale being in their eyes

[marble oasis]

@craggy smelt What is your question

[craggy smelt]

I guess 'why did you make that comment?'

[marble oasis]

Like they could just tell some of the choir to go man the jail

There’s no reason to specifically condemn every fly

It’s also not about imprisoning the flies too to kill two birds with one stone since the Wardenflies are free to leave, even if on official business

[limpid summit]

Imagine going out to beautiful far fields to capture one dude and still coming back and being fat and dirty in the dirty prison

I promise you GMS does not care lb 💔

[craggy smelt]

well they clearly don't need actual reasons to condemn a bug to service, the confessionals in the Underworks are automatic and assign punishment to workers for grave sins even if no sins are confessed

maybe they thought flies were especially good at this particular job and made up a reason to force them to do it

[marble oasis]

I thought about that too since they have the sticky spit

But when they want someone captured properly they send Envoys and Choristors and Reeds to do it

[craggy smelt]

the Underworker castes seem to only exist there, it doesn't seem like the system allows for them to ever actually leave and become choirbugs

though now I want to compare all the castes to see if that's true...

maybe? I don't know...

[marble oasis]

This isn’t “Underworker got promoted to Reed” this is “bug with Reed body shape becomes Reed if they reach the Citadel when there’s an empty spot in the Choir and Underworker if there isn’t”

[inland flower]

yeah i dont think it has much to do with the underworkers themselves, rather just the bug species/type

[craggy smelt]

choirbugs also get a butt polish allowance

[dreamy onyx]

idk if they're the same since the underworker doesn't have a thin thorax

[craggy smelt]

choirbug exercise regimen tightens up the gut

none of that fattening Underworks food

[dreamy onyx]

wouldn't it be the other way around

the choirbugs eat lavishly while the underworkers are starved

[marble oasis]

I know this is a joke but yeah kind of, they have access to the baths

[limpid summit]

Maybe they’re on a diet

The stinger doesn’t seem like part of it similar to a steel craw beak

On the rightmost bug I mean

Wow

That sent late

Dude

[blissful harbor]

now that you say it

it is very metallic

[limpid summit]

Right??

[marble oasis]

It’s weird because their faces are clearly sunken and gaunt

[limpid summit]

Maybe they have tapeworms

[craggy smelt]

I don't think they actually eat that well in the Underworks
I was half-serious about the butt polish, but I think Skyral is right, their form is too different about the waist

[marble oasis]

The Reeds are also trained

They have that Pilates waist

[blissful harbor]

choir bugs simply have higher beauty standards

[dreamy onyx]

doubt it

oh

by the time I saw the message I already made it

[craggy smelt]

now you're just showing off

[dreamy onyx]

related but my reasoning for why the conductors are so big is because they're just gorging themselves on feasts

[marble oasis]

I really feel like they’re meant to be the same though just like all the Choirbugs have a Pilgrim equivalent

Yes but it also might be the robes

[spark valve]

tc plays it fast and loose with the designs

[dreamy onyx]

well their physical mental is metallic, and I don't think it would be easy to support without at least some bulk

[limpid summit]

Imo the enemies all looking the same based on function can be explained as beyond game design canonically (though it obviously is) by saying the Citadel is prejudiced and slots similar species of bugs into specific niches

If you’re a horned pilgrim woe is you all you’re going to do is fly around

[marble oasis]

What?

[limpid summit]

Okay like

[craggy smelt]

they're all like the False Knight under there

[limpid summit]

TC had to make all the big round guys be the ones that roll around because they couldn’t make multiple enemies that do the same thing they rarely do that

But I think in this case you can actually explain it

If you wanted to

[marble oasis]

Think about how big Sherma’s hat is compared to his body and consider someone with an even gaudier hat

[dreamy onyx]

is their mantle a hat? it seemed more like armour of sorts to me

[marble oasis]

If you are large and have wings you can fly up and sit on people
If you’re small and have wings and a horn you can fly at people with your horn
If you’re small and have wings but no horn you have to resort to throwing bells

Etc

It makes no difference whether you’re a choirbug or a pilgrim

[limpid summit]

Did Sherma repurpose an offering bowl for his hat

What an agent of Satan

His time is coming fast

[marble oasis]

It’s a cymbal

Which the offering bowls are also

[limpid summit]

Yes I know it’s cymbolic

[craggy smelt]

haaaah

[marble oasis]

Insilklah

[marble oasis]

Speaking of these guys

[limpid summit]

What about these guys

I mean the same guys you want to talk about I’m not gonna post other guys

[dreamy onyx]

how the fuck do the conductors see actually. this image makes it look like their hat has eyes, but then these ones make it look like their helments are sealed

[limpid summit]

Isamor of him?

[muted lantern]

These guys don't look that much alike imo

very different traits

[limpid summit]

Disney mascot rules they look through the golden plate’s folds

[craggy smelt]

old topic! keep reading

[marble oasis]

Same way the reeds and choristors see out of their veils

[craggy smelt]

same technique as the Judges I guess

[dreamy onyx]

now I'm just left with more questions, how do any of those guys see, they're all veiled or they have armour on their heads

[limpid summit]

It’s really interesting to see stuff like Isamor how the weavers tried all this stuff to explain how holy the Citadel was and then by Conductor eras it just exists on its own

[craggy smelt]

maybe they helmets are like those gladiator ones that have small holes around the eyes
and the artstyle is just too simple to depict them

or magic

[marble oasis]

I mean the choirbugs’ veils are supposed to symbolise their blind obedience to the Citadel

So I wouldn’t be surprised if no one could actually see

[limpid summit]

They are?

[marble oasis]

Come ON bro

[limpid summit]

You know what fine

I guess they are

[marble oasis]

They literally have the Citadel logo in place of their face

[limpid summit]

There’s no way choir clappers are blind

[craggy smelt]

veils could be fine enough to see through - artstyle thing again

or its all silk-based

[marble oasis]

well

[craggy smelt]

silk-dar

[marble oasis]

They don’t actually attack you

They just fling their hammers around the arena regardless

[limpid summit]

In a semi deliberate manner

[marble oasis]

But the reeds and choristors and high halls bugs yes

[limpid summit]

I remember I tried to argue GMS was blind and people got on my ahh

That was really early on

[autumn umbra]

what were your arguments?

[marble oasis]

Although this is just fucking gold it’s not like cloth you might be able to see through

[dreamy onyx]

maybe those golden circles are just their eyes

[autumn umbra]

painted cloth..?

[dreamy onyx]

i doubt it though

[marble oasis]

The shoulder pads?

[limpid summit]

I forget what the counter arguments were I could find them
But she basically has very wide reaching inaccurate attacks that target the majority of the arena and aren’t super fast
Once she catches you in her silk she absolutely ravages you

[dreamy onyx]

I didn't even consider that... it would be kinda funny tho

[marble oasis]

No I agree because Eva is blind and uses silken sense

[limpid summit]

So I think for her silken sight world sense that she has while awake she can’t actually see

She sort of positions herself toward you always but probably doesn’t have a 100% idea

[autumn umbra]

ahh I see. it's an interesting concept. like if she could see she'd absolutely destroy you all the time like with that one attack

[dreamy onyx]

a lot of the bugs could be straight up blind and just use feel to figure out where hornet is... except the winged ones, I have no idea how they'd do it unless they can see through their veil

[craggy smelt]

huh, just noticed they have four arms

[dreamy onyx]

I mean hornet does have a red cloak so she's probably very visible

[limpid summit]

Yeah it’s not like it has an actual cooldown

[dreamy onyx]

same

[limpid summit]

And sure she’s very tired and just woke up but she does all that anyway

[marble oasis]

Smell

[limpid summit]

She also only screams in the Abyss when lost lace does

“Oh oh shit she’s here ahhhh”

[marble oasis]

Sound

Probably not taste

[glacial warren]

I think the reason the Grand Mother does more Damage with the Threads if she catches you is because she, for a second, snares you with some of her Haunted Thread and hits you in your psyche.

[limpid summit]

All Hornet does is run around and swim in mud she probably registers

[craggy smelt]

it's all silk-sense, connected to them all via the Haunting
fine silk spun throughout every environment alerts them to Hornet's location

[marble oasis]

Soul damage is unhealable

[glacial warren]

She in essence backdoors into your head and goes ham on your mind, though Hornet being a Demigod is able to snap back out once the attack ends.

[marble oasis]

For sound at least people comment on Hornet’s footsteps being loud

[limpid summit]

Is that why Widow is insane

[marble oasis]

And she’s like “I was being quiet >:(“

[glacial warren]

So she can’t like. Properly ‘Haunt’ Hornet and override her will but she can trap her just long enough to basically ravage her mindscape for a brief, powerful moment.

[limpid summit]

Breaking the mask and the spinnerets is cutting off her connection to GMS so she’s mentally regressing into a Pharlid

[dreamy onyx]

I could see this if it wasn't for the fact that they lead the choir

[limpid summit]

“I’m only 3 Citadel eras! 3 citadel eras is young!”

[dreamy onyx]

I feel like they'd have to... well, see to lead their choir

[marble oasis]

Why

[marble oasis]

This is cool and all but what about before the Haunting

Smell and sound are enough for a bug

[dreamy onyx]

...to not bump into walls?

i was going to say that because of needing to know where they are, they just use feel or sound

[marble oasis]

Yeah feel is fine plenty of bugs go off vibration

[dreamy onyx]

or maybe even they repeat the path they memorise it, showing their dedciation, thus they rise through ranks

[glacial warren]

Not 100% sure. All I know is Bugs in the Citadel are miserable and in some level of agony, depending on rank.

The Underworkers and Conductors, beyond doubt, have it the worst of the bunch. Poor bastards.

[marble oasis]

This too it’s not like they ever encounter new parts of the Citadel

[dreamy onyx]

underworkers maybe, but i think the choirbugs are just doing their jobs

miserable? sure, but i think its neutral for most of them, aside from the pilgrims who are probably overjoyed they didn't die

[marble oasis]

The pilgrims are probably loving it lmao

[dreamy onyx]

also conductors are literally kings, I think they're having a grand time

[glacial warren]

The Pilgrims of course are just happy they got past the Judges.

[marble oasis]

Nah they’re burdened with knowledge

They’re like fuckkkk our god is fake

[glacial warren]

No. They aren’t. You discover the truth of their existence if you visit the Whiteward, especially after confronting the Unravelled.

[marble oasis]

The whole “if we stop singing we’re all going to fucking die” probably puts a bit of a damper on mealtimes

[limpid summit]

That must have been the worst day ever for them

[marble oasis]

Pilgrims are just in it for the love of the game

[glacial warren]

Well that and their existence itself is likely a constant, unending state of agony beyond comprehension.

[limpid summit]

Imagine your oppressive overlords finally give you the keys to rule and they say yeah you know how we were enslaving you? Now you have to take care of our mom who enslaved US

[dreamy onyx]

orrrrrrrrrr they just kinda went "we have entire castes here that just sing and sing and sing, all we have to do is enjoy ourselves"

[limpid summit]

“Have fun”

Then they just went and died

Did anyone try and stop them

[glacial warren]

No wonder we see a Conductor’s remains near Pharloom’s entrance, having fled for his life.

[dreamy onyx]

I mean, I don't think they'd survive to tell the tale

either you kill them (which half of them were probably ready for anyway) or you die

[glacial warren]

Still the Conductors couldn’t really enjoy much of anything, given what becoming a Conductor entails.

[dreamy onyx]

probably more insulting if you watched them flee tbh, you get cursed with knowing your life is a lie and your masters just ditch you to go fuck some gods

[dreamy onyx]

I don't think becoming a Conductor is painful, but the surgeries they did to inject themselves with Silk could have definetly been

[glacial warren]

After finding that Psalm Cylinder just outside the Unravelled’s pit and giving it a listen, all of a sudden Ballador’s words about questioning the ‘cost’ of becoming a Conductor make way too much sense.

[dreamy onyx]

I think they're just fat because they had such a lavish lifestyle

silk injections don't seem to alter the shape of a bugs thorax and/or abdomen, mostly their head

[limpid summit]

Do we think the yoke realization came right after they repurposed and used Whiteward

Or did the weavers tell them beyond the vagueness of the Harp

[glacial warren]

No no, think about it for a sec. The other Bugs in the caste are all bred specifically to fill their role. The Vaultkeepers, the Judges, et cetera. The Conductors were once ordinary Bugs, but were…’elevated’ to their grandiose, towering forms.

[spark valve]

he says they share the weavers' truth in the citadel's silence so it came later as their rule crumbled

before then they saw shit as nice and breezy

[dreamy onyx]

gonna be fr im still not sure what yoke means in the context

[glacial warren]

The last surgery of Conductor Mizello gives us delightful insight into what, exactly, bearing the mantle means. It isn’t a pretty picture.

[spark valve]

no it doesn't that's not the burden

[spark valve]

the burden of rule

[dreamy onyx]

got it

[dreamy onyx]

I mean probably when they realised "oh, oh there's a giant god above us that's also the mother of our former masters, and now its our responsibility to deal with her"

[glacial warren]

What else could it mean? Ballador himself mentions questioning the ‘cost’ of becoming a Conductor. Note the specific terminology of becoming a Conductor. The Morticians are already proof the Surgeons were mutating Bugs to fill certain new roles and positions.

[dreamy onyx]

i mean, they were the kings

[spark valve]

it means their rule was false

[dreamy onyx]

if it was that burdensome they could literally destroy the entire whiteward because nobody was going to stop them

[spark valve]

But the words... How hollow they echoed. The mantle of rule, claimed greedily from Pharloom's fading first children, those bitter Weavers... it was yoke, not crown.
Now, in our Citadel's silence, we share their truth. Only one monarch's claws ever clutched this kingdom, though we raised our voices to cry otherwise.

[spark valve]

why would they do that

[dreamy onyx]

they wouldn't, I'm just saying they could have

[spark valve]

whiteward has nothing to do with the yoke

[dreamy onyx]

I agree, I was replying to Zero

[glacial warren]

I’m less speaking of the yoke and moreso on the Conductor’s origins.

[limpid summit]

Fair

[dreamy onyx]

I'm saying that if they knew it was that painful, they could have just like... not done it anymore
nobody was forcing them too, the citadel bugs were all under them

my reading was that the only reason they injected silk into themselves was to prolong their lifespan

[limpid summit]

So did the conductors read the harp and just think the weavers were mistaken

[glacial warren]

Like once you connect the dots and realize what, exactly, being turned into a Conductor means, their station becomes ten times more horrifying.

[limpid summit]

Or that they hadn’t liked ruling

“But we’re different!”

[spark valve]

they realized that they like the weavers weren't the 'true' rulers

but not due to the harp

[glacial warren]

Well true but remember they’re still part of the ultra-devout murder cult. The sheer power of faith here is so strong the prisoners in the Slab see their predicament as something to celebrate and embrace.

[spark valve]

the whiteward immortality stuff was just their decision it wasn't obedience to anything

[dreamy onyx]

fair points but they also aren't that bound to what came before, since its implied they gilded the citadel instead of leaving it bare

[glacial warren]

It’s entirely possible the Conductors for the most part grit their mandibles and bore the agony of their existence because they still believed in the faith of their goal. The ends justified the means, no matter how badly they were mutilated in the process.

[marble oasis]

You don’t get “turned into” a conductor

That’s not what the surgeries are for

[spark valve]

we're in the just making shit up stage

[limpid summit]

The higher caste was likely set in stone when the gilded citadel was created

I mean actually no

In prime Citadel times

What would happen if a pilgrim really made it

I don’t know

[dreamy onyx]

genuinely i just think the conductors being so large was because they had such lavish lifestyles

[limpid summit]

I know they say something

[spark valve]

join the choir, a bunch of them are explicitly former pilgrims

[limpid summit]

No to the top

[spark valve]

yes they make it there then become choir bugs

[dreamy onyx]

i think he means to the cradle

[spark valve]

the pilgrimage isn't over until they reach the cradle

[limpid summit]

Oh yeah wait what am I saying

Sherma doesn’t become a member

Neither do the other dudes we see

[spark valve]

sherma doesn't finish his pilgrimage

nobody has in a long time

[dreamy onyx]

they become choirbugs before the cradle don't they. hornet says the task is basically impossible for any regular bug

[glacial warren]

Again, Ballador’s dialogue exposes that the Conductors weren’t always Conductors. There’s a process of ‘becoming’ one, and the fact the giant chair in the Whiteward exists, plus the Conductor Mizello Cylinder, all point towards becoming a Conductor being, in essence, having your form grotesquely and agonizingly mutilated via what is likely a long process of surgeries.

[marble oasis]

no lol

[limpid summit]

They were always conductors what they were attempting to become was immortal

[spark valve]

it's impossible now because all the places you would normally learn the melodies are nonfunctional

hornet isn't going through proper channels

[marble oasis]

They “became” conductors in that they obtained power

[limpid summit]

Some surgeries failed gruesomely the others made you a shell of yourself hooked up to silk

[marble oasis]

Not in that their bodies changed to the shape of a Conductor we see

[glacial warren]

Again Ballador states that he became a Conductor. He used to be something else, they all did.

[limpid summit]

Not a Conductor

Yes

He wasn’t born that way

He was born that way physically though

[spark valve]

 All: Pilgrim of Pharloom eternal, you rare chosen who hath ascended to this final threshold, listen to our wish, deliver it, that you may rise above and see your pilgrimage end.

choirbugs being 'former pilgrims' means they completed this step

[marble oasis]

He became the boss of the Citadel

Not a big round fella with a gold head

[glacial warren]

Mizello’s Cylinder would be proof otherwise.

[marble oasis]

Those surgeries are for life extension

[spark valve]

no it's not because the surgery isn't what you're saying it is

[limpid summit]

Sing “YES” to affirm

[marble oasis]

Harmonise with the great Choir “VERILY” to affirm

[dreamy onyx]

TA does say she doesn't remember the melody anymore...

[limpid summit]

Once silkflies were repurposed by the Architects to power the cogworks, the Conductors didn’t need to do much of their job anymore so they got to repurposing the Weaver machines to make themselves immortal

[glacial warren]

That one specifically yes, but notice the specific terminology on the Cylinder: ‘Last Surgery of Conductor Mizello’.

[limpid summit]

But that didn’t change their form

Yeah because he died lol

[marble oasis]

yeah they needed more and more surgeries to keep living

[dreamy onyx]

buuuuuuuut the big vaultkeeper guy is also stated to have not given out his melody to anyone, so I'm unsure

[marble oasis]

it’s not just one immortality surgery and then they’re good

[marble oasis]

He might be the latest Pontiff in a line

[spark valve]

the dead vaultkeeper went rogue

[limpid summit]

So were old Architects just taking random breaks to give pilgrims the melody

[glacial warren]

Meaning that wasn’t the first time they took a trip down to the Whiteward, which again implies the horrific things done to them in the name of ‘becoming’ a Conductor.

[limpid summit]

No it implies repeated surgeries were necessary

[marble oasis]

No it doesn’t

to zero

[limpid summit]

Hey…

[marble oasis]

Quit your yammering son

[limpid summit]

If you want grotesque body horror in the verse look no further than Soul Master and Traitor Lord

Canonically they have to look so horrifyingly ugly

[dreamy onyx]

no clue, there might've been some sort of mechanism we don't see.

that or becoming a choirbug was just about making it to the ciatdel sinless, and getting to the cradle was just a way to keep them in servitude

[marble oasis]

How do you know Soul Master wasn’t always that big and beautiful

[glacial warren]

Honestly this might also explain why the Conductors are so heavily concealed and covered up. Whatever they look like under those giant helms and robes cannot look pleasant.

[marble oasis]

I doubt you actually have to make it to the cradle to be given a white cloak and allowed to sing

[glacial warren]

He deflates back to his proper size when Staggered and when killed.

[limpid summit]

What a bounty's been laid out by our benefactors, those generous Conductors! Giants amongst bugs they are, all-seeing and kind!

Jubilana says this. I doubt the surgeries were public knowledge since they were later on and they were always depicted as huge anyway

[dreamy onyx]

yeah that's what I've been saying

[marble oasis]

Or he’s just a pufferfish bug

[dreamy onyx]

i think it's still stated the amount of soul made them grow huge

[marble oasis]

Maybe getting the Cradle lets you be a Choristor? Because then you’re given a veil so you can’t tell anyone about what you saw

[glacial warren]

Most likely. The Citadel always hides its blemishes.

[limpid summit]

He’s way way fatter than a twister

[limpid summit]

Bro what is this veil scaling

Do you mean you can’t speak through it???

[marble oasis]

Not explicitly like the others

Head of the Soul Sanctum. Hoarded soul hoping to stave off Hallownest's affliction, but eventually became intoxicated by its power.
The bugs of Hallownest tried all kinds of tricks and rituals and prayers to rid themselves of the infection. But to no avail! Perhaps the infection came from somewhere deep inside of them that they could not escape.

[craggy smelt]

interesting thought
silk was used to affect the forms of Pharlids to make them Weavers
and many of the Soul Scholars were deformed by 'misuse of Soul'
so you can change the form of something with Soul-related magicks, but it can also go really wrong

[marble oasis]

You can but it’s symbolic of being masked and hidden away by the Citadel

[glacial warren]

Ye. And the Surgeons, via use of Silk, were doing this intentionally. All while their victims were still conscious throughout their procedures.

[limpid summit]

Top tiers of HK and Jabaloma

[spark valve]

you don't, you get the cloaks when you arrive at the citadel still as a pilgrim

[dire lynx]

ball of lint, fork, shadow and a string

[glacial warren]

Actually come to think of it the Unravelled might be stronger than we realize.

[marble oasis]

So then why are we saying everyone went to the cradle

[glacial warren]

Hornet herself admits her power isn’t enough to cleanse the Silk Pit at the bottom of Whiteward, so all those consciousnesses are still trapped down there. The Unravelled cannot truly be killed in a capacity that would matter.

[dreamy onyx]

i think nobody went to the cradle, they just said that so that the bugs wouldn't get too comfortable in the citadel

[marble oasis]

When did they put in the Dancers?

[spark valve]

because they're called former pilgrims which means their pilgrimage was completed

which means they went to cradle

[dreamy onyx]

i guess it also depends on if Ballador and the others realised that GMS was the true monarch through seeing her coccoon, which if the case, would probably mean they don't want others to see it

[marble oasis]

Who is

[spark valve]

choir enemies

Full-grown former pilgrim serving the Citadel.
hornhead

Aged former pilgrim. Uses their wings to position above threats and crush them under their large shell.
elder

[marble oasis]

Well they could have abandoned the pilgrimage

Once you get to the choir who cares

[spark valve]

💀

[glacial warren]

Pretty sure that means they’d either be shipped off to the Slab or killed.

[spark valve]

they're not gonna get all the way there then just abandon it

[dire lynx]

silk fly machine at the ready

[spark valve]

this really isn't so weird they just completed the pilgrimage like we know the pilgrimage was supposed to end idk why people make a big fuss about it

[tight anchor]

How and why did the weavers build a weavenest in the abyss?

[spark valve]

hornet can't do it as easily because everyone is dead

[dire lynx]

good question

[glacial warren]

Exactly. Then they get their soul sucked out and used to pilot a robot so they can keep being a slave even after they’re dead.

[dreamy onyx]

finding a way to kill GMS, and the abyss also has the double advantage of being far far away

i mean she can barely see the far fields, i doubt she'd want to be near the void

[muted lantern]

Do you think pilgrims know how to make their own food or do they just bring rations for the journey and restock from the corpses of their bretherens uneated rations.

[dreamy onyx]

they probably had food for them

its not explicitly in silksong but considering the gourmand and company, they could've easily had food shipped

maybe from greymoor?

[tight anchor]

Sherma did say that pilgrims go to greymoor to eat

[muted lantern]

considering the citadel i doubt theyd give enough of a damn about pilgrims to send their food. i think they probably got long lasting rations from home

[glacial warren]

Food comes from Sinner’s Road. Roaches are the core source of Citadel’s culinary experience.

[dreamy onyx]

they aren't lmao

[tight anchor]

Greymoor used to grow food and crops for the pilgrims (before the haunting)

[dreamy onyx]

benjin and crull state they were only eaten because there's not really a lot of alternatives ever since they destroyed the farms

[muted lantern]

no, greymoor was repurposed for silk recycling, the roaches are a way the moorbugs found to feed themselves without crops. not the citadels food source.

[marble oasis]

What reason do they have to send pilgrims up to the cradle

[muted lantern]

so gms can eat them ig

[marble oasis]

That needlessly jeopardises the whole operation

[glacial warren]

They very literally are, that’s why Sinner’s Road exists. Greymoor stopped being farmland a long t8me ago because the Citadel put everyone there to work catching and respooling Silk Dregs, so they needed a new source of food.

[muted lantern]

(joking)

[glad fox]

guys was silksong easier in terms of bosses. I just beat lost lace and I am crying bruh. The ending was so peak. I am still marinating in what I have just experienced. Was that the shade of the knight at the end right?

[marble oasis]

Just dangle it over their heads so they don’t get complacent

[marble oasis]

Yes

[glad fox]

on which question are you saying yes

[muted lantern]

Yeah tk saved her.

[glad fox]

i asked two lol

[spark valve]

it doesn't do that and it's a pilgrimage to worship before the kingdom's divine heart

[tight anchor]

Yeah

[marble oasis]

No you didn’t

Oh

[tight anchor]

Along with the 1,279,077,683,073 others

[marble oasis]

The second

[glad fox]

damn bruh. I think I liked silksong better bro tbh

[marble oasis]

Easier is your opinion

[spark valve]

there's no jeopardy to the operation it's having pilgrims go sing the magic sleep songs to gms it's a part of it lmao

[glad fox]

the whole tool and crest system

[muted lantern]

Silksongs bosses are much harder, though they never reach the height of difficulty of absrad. which i assume the dlc will give us something harder. But thats a topic for #sk-discussion

[marble oasis]

No the Choir is what sleeps her

[spark valve]

which you become by learning what

[marble oasis]

The Threefold Melody is just a key so that if you go up to GMS you DON’T wake her

Not so that you DO lull her

[spark valve]

and no it's not just any one thing it's the entire combination of the citadel's output

[spark valve]

citation needed

[marble oasis]

Which in the early days was just the Choir

[marble oasis]

The part where if she wakes up everyone fucking dies

[glad fox]

ok one question then. Do I possess atleast some sort of skill then, If I beat lost lace in my second try and depressed trobbio in my fourth?

[muted lantern]

Depends one your build but generally yes.

[spark valve]

architect melody and vaultkeeper melody both are obviously made to keep her asleep since cogcore is pumping one and the pontiff found secrets of the song in vaultkeeper melody ALL OF THEM KEEP HER ASLEEP

[spark valve]

that's not a citation for your claim your claim is that that song doesn't keep her asleep

[muted lantern]

but again lets move to #sk-discussion for difficulty convos

[marble oasis]

That was not my claim

My claim was you’re not really supposed to go up there at all but if you do you’d better be equipped

[spark valve]

2/3 parts of the threefold melody are demonstrably for the purpose of keeping her asleep why would the combination be otherwise

[spark valve]

which isn't true

they are supposed to go up there

[marble oasis]

I disagree that going up there is an essential part of keeping her asleep

[spark valve]

whether it's essential or not they do it

[dreamy onyx]

i thought the reading was that the muckroaches were only farmed by the moorbugs

[spark valve]

redundancies upon redundancies

[dire lynx]

when do we learn this of the vaultkeeper?

[dreamy onyx]

though yeah I guess all the occupations make it likely they were food for the choirbugs as well

[glacial warren]

Needolin Dialogue near the Pontiff’s corpse.

[spark valve]

pontiff
"Damned bugs...
We prayed a cage...
We sang your chains...
Divine Silk..."

cardinius

Only our pontiff, lived long and low within our vault, they held the melody, jealously, covetously... A learning for the highest Vaultkeeper, and them alone.
A truth they were told to have found... There in the dark. Something within the melody, or the words. Something to set them silent...

[dire lynx]

what about that says the vaultkeepers melody keeps gms asleep?

[spark valve]

he hoarded it and fell silent in an attempt to stop things

which means

it was a part of it

[glacial warren]

The purpose of all the music the Citadel produces is it’s the magic lullaby that keeps the Grand Mother asleep, as is the design of the Weavers.

[dire lynx]

not all the music, a specific song (architechts melody)

[spark valve]

you're just saying that though

the citadel is a superstructure that has for ages been filled to the brim with slaves singing

do you think none of that has been functional

the architects and their cogwork core are relatively recent

hell it was never even completed

[glacial warren]

The Citadel is, in of itself, a giant sealed can of evil, and the Grand Mother is what’s being sealed inside. All the focus on music was intentionally propagated by the Weavers so they got the Choirbugs to sing the magic lullaby for them. The events of Silksong kick off because the Haunting has caused the song to start to quiet, meaning the metaphorical can begins leaking.

[marble oasis]

The song the Core produces and the Architect’s Melody are not exactly the same

[dreamy onyx]

where does it state this?

[spark valve]

twelfth architect says it

[dire lynx]

yes, original version architect melody was sung by the choir

[marble oasis]

It’s “complete” it’s just constantly undergoing renovations

[spark valve]

the core is new

the citadel predates it

and was playing music with generations of slaves singing

[dire lynx]

meant to put choir

mb

[marble oasis]

Is it really slavery if they like it

[dreamy onyx]

she says it'll work but its not going to be expanded or tneded to

[glacial warren]

Yeah the song is produced by the entire cult, not just their machines.

[spark valve]

the choir sung melodies taught by the vaultkeepers not the architects

[spark valve]

yes

[dreamy onyx]

that is a crazy thing to say. also yeah

[dire lynx]

the architects were a new introduction, im saying the original version of their song is what the choir sung

[dreamy onyx]

it was produced by everyone, but then they got the core working and realised "lmao we don't need these guys anymore"

[marble oasis]

Nah the Core is a failsafe

[dreamy onyx]

i don't think the architects were new? but the core certainly was

[marble oasis]

The Choir kept singing regardless

They only fell silent because of the Haunting

[spark valve]

the citadel is a giant symphony of songs suggesting that only any one of them does anything is silly especially given that the cogwork statues talk about the threefold melody as the collective product of the citadel

[marble oasis]

Architects are as old as the Conductors and Vaultkeepers, the Sentinels were a creation of an Architect and those were the days when they were still actively bringing in bugs for the Choir

that’s like the very very start of the citadel

[spark valve]

it's not just the architect melody that does anything it's everything

[marble oasis]

If anything Vaultkeepers are the newest faction

[dire lynx]

i meant the architects melody, like specifically the song they sing in the core

[spark valve]

conductors are the newest

[shell magnet]

Wasn't the whole point that the citadel bugs thought they could replace the choir with the cogwork core and that failed

Or am I dumb

[dreamy onyx]

did it fail?

[marble oasis]

There would still have been a conductor faction under the Weavers

[spark valve]

why, they wouldn't do anything

[dire lynx]

yes, thats why everything is haunted and gms started to wake

[marble oasis]

Conduct

[dreamy onyx]

sucks to have been an architect lmao

[spark valve]

the vaultkeepers are the ones who actually lead the choir in prayer the conductors conduct by being the leadership faction

conductors never did that

[dire lynx]

the citadel fell silent for a time before the haunting began

[dreamy onyx]

why did you reply twice

anyway yeah

so much for perfect unfaltering voice

[marble oasis]

Source

[dreamy onyx]

unrelated but i think the one thing they missed in the cogwork core were giant needles to play the melody on they cylinders

[crimson patio]

What’s the ingame text that says this..?

I was under the impression that the conductors used to actually conduct the choir

While Vaultkeepers are just record keepers who never leave their basement..

[spark valve]

High caste bug, responsible for delivering sermons and leading prayer for those beyond the walls of the Whispering Vaults.
vaultkeeper journal entry

[crimson patio]

Delivering sermons and leading prayer

That’s not conducting a choir

[spark valve]

the prayer

is songs

those beyond the walls of the whispering vaults

are the choir

[shell magnet]

Oh boy

Is someone arguing that conductors weren't conducting the choir

[muted lantern]

Oh shit there is a caste system. i had just assumed there was before.

[dreamy onyx]

the only other mention of prayer is pilgrims to the citadel and to weavers

make of that what you will

[spark valve]

the conductors are the bugs in power and 'conduct' the citadel by making decrees about how it should be run, they did not directly lead the choir in their singing

is it really hard to understand why the political leaders of the citadel of song are called conductors

[shell magnet]

Well

Actually wait

The citadel has metronomes

[marble oasis]

Choir commander of the High Halls, able to summon and command cogflies at a flick of their baton.
Once they summoned song from their subjects. Now they rise only to command an end to those unstrung.

[shell magnet]

Ah well there goes the metronome theory

[spark valve]

that's not a conductor

[shell magnet]

Bro 😭

Do you know what conductors do

[marble oasis]

Maestro, but the inhabitants of the High Halls are in the Conductor faction same way the Scrollreaders are in the Vaultkeeper faction

[spark valve]

they're higher ranked members of the choir

[marble oasis]

Hence the heads of the faction would perform a similar role

[dreamy onyx]

what says that, they share similarities

[spark valve]

like ministers

[dreamy onyx]

but I think the conductor faction is just conductors

[shell magnet]

They have batons
You know... like conductors?

[spark valve]

Gold ranked disciple of the Choir and direct servant to the Citadel's Conductors.

[spark valve]

I'm talking about conductors as the video game faction

please I know reading is hard

try

[shell magnet]

I'm trying but my reading comprehension is at a 4th grade level

[marble oasis]

You’re talking to a hollow knight fan man have some patience

[shell magnet]

It doesn't help that the inner band kid in me is trying to relate anything music related to actual music

Stupid game with its music analogies

[dreamy onyx]

its definetly intentional

[spark valve]

one of these is not like the others

[dreamy onyx]

probably has more correlation than a reed or chorister

[shell magnet]

First one has a big bell coming out of its chest

[marble oasis]

The “Conductors” includes all of High Halls same way “Vaultkeepers” includes all of the Vaults
Both also refer to a specific bug type who is the leader of that area, it’s a metonym

[spark valve]

those are very different places with very different standards

ministers are called gold ranked members of the choir, maestros are probably the same

choir clappers are called disciples of the choir

not everything in high halls is a conductor

[dreamy onyx]

wasn't this just about if conductors existed during the weavers reign

wouldn't they have to exist so they'd actually be able to have the rank it passed onto them

[marble oasis]

Yes, and the idea was the only purpose they could have served back then was to actually conduct

[dreamy onyx]

alternative would be they just create a new rank for shits

[marble oasis]

So if they didn’t do that there were no conductors

[spark valve]

this is circular reasoning

there's no reason to think conductors existed as a rank when weavers were in charge

[shell magnet]

Fatal flaw here is that the conductors don't have arms to conduct

[spark valve]

the etymology of the conductor name is them being the leaders of the citadel

[marble oasis]

Vaultkeepers only metaphorically keep the vaults

[spark valve]

the word conductor being used as leader for a song based faction is very much a different situation to 'vaultkeeper' are we being fr

[marble oasis]

I get what you’re saying but I still think they existed under the Weavers

[autumn umbra]

it's also possible that Conductors were executive leaders and the Weavers were the theological caste above them

[silent shard]

Do you think the arcane egg is a vessel egg or an egg from an ancient civilization?

[marble oasis]

egg from ancient civ

[silent shard]

What's written on it makes it look like a vessel, though.

[marble oasis]

How

[craggy smelt]

PK probably got the idea for vessels from the AC

[silent shard]

Yes, but what makes us think it comes from the AC?

[craggy smelt]

it's found in the depths of the Abyss along with other relics from them like the lore tablets
also in the first game, you can find four arcane eggs and they are also related to the AC

[glad fox]

tk saved us at the end of sk, so what is the true ending of hk

[craggy smelt]

either 'Dream No More' or 'Embrace the Void' could work

[glad fox]

I think Embrace the Void is more applicable

and is it gonna like continue from exactly where it ended

[craggy smelt]

I lean that way myself

it's the craziest ending

[glad fox]

yea

[rare light]

embrace the void but when you give the delicate flower ith

[glad fox]

I thought same stuff gonna happen to hornet

and lace is gonna die

[craggy smelt]

man, I hope so

[glad fox]

when I saw that flower withering I thought yup this is it and then tk comes outta nowehere lol

I was in awe

and the herald making a cameo was great to

[low oracle]

Yes! But that isn't exactly true. Broodling wants to breed. She doesn't know for what purpose, or even why she needs to in the first place.
The young judges would kill Hornet right then and there if they could. Because they can't, they hide. The needolin isn't their free will, since it very clearly shows to manipulate bugs beyond their own will.
Just like the vaultborn, the baby judges already have been influenced by the citadel, and are sure to grow up as its servants.

In addition, you also have to consider the progression. Hornet can interact with both the little judges and the vaultborn long before getting to the slab in any way.

[low oracle]

There is no trrue ending. All endings and even interactions within the game make up different timelines. All endings of HK except for Sealed Siblings lead into SS. However only Dream No More and Embrace the Void (+possibly delicate flower version) lead into Act3.
There isn't the lore. There is a world with different possibilities, and a story that changes with each decision you make.

[marble oasis]

you mean except the hollow knight

Also you can’t consider act 3 a separate beast

[low oracle]

By that logic, Twisted Child and Weaver Queen aren't real endings.

[marble oasis]

They are, but whether you reach act 3 or not it still confirms that LoS exists

It doesn't stop existing if you fail to reach act 3

[finite wind]

Nope, she can get captured right after getting mantis claw

Which is what happened to me

And the other stuff just seems a stretch idk

[low oracle]

I didn't get captured until far later, so idk.

[low oracle]

Well it isn't a stretch to say that Broodling doesn't see you as an enemy, while Vaultborn literally attack you and the Baby Judges sing about killing pilgrims.

[finite wind]

There are multiple instances of bugs seeing hornet as an enemy but she's not killing them unlike the baby judges

The hunter for example

Which btw is clearly talking about eating bug's organs

And she's not just talking about "bad bugs"

[low oracle]

-Hornet doesn't stop existing after Hollow Knight, hence she still gets captured and brought to Pharloom.

-The Knight doesn't stop existing (if DNM or EtV) while Hornet can still die in Twisted Child.

Basically what I mean. There is no "one" lore, it is just a world with possibilities for outcomes. That doesn't change the core of what the characters are, but what happens with them.
Another example is the thing with characters dying or living, depending if you play in Steel Soul or not.

[low oracle]

Pretty sure she literally tells the Huntress that fighting is pointless. Do you think Hornet chooses to kill innocent haunted pilgrims?

[finite wind]

Yes she does multiple times (like killing the judges going out of her way)

And then, why does she help a person who literally kills innocent to bring more of her babies to the world to kill more innocents

[low oracle]

For her own gain, and also because she doesn't have to do the quest by killing innocent creatures.
And the Judges being killed is exactly what I mean. They are not innocent. They want to grow up to kill pilgrims and "judge" them.

[marble oasis]

What on earth are you talking about?

[finite wind]

She knows exactly what the hunters and her babies are going to be up to

[low oracle]

About the way that endings work across games.

[low oracle]

Well then give a better explanation. You can't disagree, while also just not contributing.

[finite wind]

If she's smart enough to recognize the judges are killing innocent then she knows the babies and the hunter are doing that too

[finite wind]

She's either a massive hypocrite or is a game inconsistency

Or, it isn't relevant at all since the baby judges work more like an Easter egg or secret you have to work around to find

Like the young vaultkeepers

[low oracle]

Vaultborn automatically spawn in at Act3, wether released or not. They aren't really babies though, just a bit younger than the other bugs.

[finite wind]

Didn't know the act 3 bit but I'm not comparing them because of their age but because they are a secret enemy

Which I don't think needs to make much sense lore wise, hence why killing them doesn't make sense

Also, idk if you can kill them on act 3, but if you could, the argument of them eventually becoming adults wouldn't make sense since there's no citadel anymore

[fresh badger]

No...

All endings (and even playthroughs) of hk being canonically valid doesn't mean silksong follows every ending.

[low oracle]

But there is no reason it wouldn't.

[fresh badger]

You cant say the thk ending leads into silksong when we see in silksong's story that tk is still free. Act 3 isnt a seperate continuity (in terms of Hallownest's fate) from act 2

[low oracle]

It may or may not be, as we can't confirm if we follow either of the other endings in SS. Also, I already explained why we can't use this as an argument.

[fresh badger]

The simplest answer is silksong just follows an ending from hollow knight

Something something diverging timelines wowie zowie

[sonic sleet]

not many people think about it but bell eater might be one of more powerful characters in silksong only reason it got killed easily is that bell beast is even stronger

[half horizon]

If you think about it, GMS and Lace don't have a mask, or at least their masks are black. That has several implications in the universe of Hollow Knight.

The first one is that, if they don't have a mask, they either don't have a soul and have some other "means to exist," or they are capable of stabilizing their souls without a mask. The only instance where we see bugs that are capable of stabilizing their souls without a mask—though for a limited period of time—are the mask makers, as you can remove their masks and they remain sane. Since they make masks and bugs only acquired natural masks later on in the Hollow Knight lore, it is implicit that the "original bugs"—which probably came from the void or are derived from such—did not have masks. Even gods and higher beings are (generally) unable to stabilize their souls without a mask. Maybe that's why GMS goes insane and the weavers lose control over her power. That would also explain why GMS simply attacks you without hesitate and keeps yelling during the fight. On top of that, it would make the theme of motherhood in Silksong much deeper as she would keep her "mother instincts" even with an unstable soul. Additionally, since Lance is made of void and silk, it could be that the silk itself is stabilizing her soul, and from that we could also infer that GMS can stabilize her soul without a mask, which is also supported by the fact that Hornet's cocoon holds her void/soul when we die.

.
The second implication lies on the fact that Gods use masks. If even gods and the Pale King had to use masks to stabilize their souls, it might be that GMS, as someone who can literally manipulate other bugs souls (she mutated bugs' souls and bodies to create the weavers), might actually be something different from a regular bug or higher being. She was able to manipulate void to make a stable creature (Lance)—something that the Pale King and the White Lady struggled with—and silk, which is implied to be originally exclusive to GMS and she later shared this trait with the weavers, is capable of storing memories, traces of events, and manipulating a bug's mind. That is something we don't see anywhere else, which really makes me wonder whether GMS is actually a bug or a high being or a separate entity that is able to interact with normal bugs. That might be why she called the weavers divine and might even indicate she is supperior to gods. She might also be related to the shade lord somehow, but we don't have enough information to infer that yet.

And last, Lace is not a bug. One could say she is just a bunch of void and silk that together allowed fro her existance. This is actually insane, as the only other material we know to be capable of interacting with void with such intimacy was soul. We don't have a dream nail to check if she has a soul, but we can say that, according to our current knowledge of silksong lore, she didn't acquire one in a regular way if she has one at all.

[half horizon]

Oh my bad I didn't know yall were debating on something else

[sonic sleet]

uhh what

[half horizon]

I sent a huge wall of text while yall were debating about the bell beast or something within that scope, or did I confuse myself?

Oh nvm

I didn't see the messages before yours

[sonic sleet]

I just said that bell eater and bell beast are way stronger than most people assume

bell eater could be one of strongest creatures since it has a huge control of it's body which is really long and if not bell beast which is even more stronger it could wreck a lot of pharloom

[half horizon]

Probably, GMS had to trap him, probably because she couldn't use silk to manipulate him for some reason

So it might be much stronger than we think

But it is weaker than bell eater

[sonic sleet]

from hornet journal we know that bell eater was also in a long slumber and got awoken by void and bell beast was controlled by silk heart probably because it was too hard to control possibly due to how hard bell beast natural armor is

[half horizon]

Yeah, but I guess bell eater was probably hidding from GMS, else he would have appeared much earlier, probably in act 1 or 2, maybe even before hornet was brought to Pharloom. Either way, bell beast is special as GMS couldn't control it.

But I don't understand why the bell beast would have a silk heart. The lore behind silk hearts is still very confusing to me. Hearts, as implied in act 3, hold a bug's dreams, memories, or even its soul. But silk hearts are different. In fact, hornet uses them to literally make silk. It resembles more a plasmium gland rather than an ancient heart

[half horizon]

It might have something to do with what I said here

[finite wind]

If the citadel is using pilgrims for the underworks, how come none of them look like pilgrims, whilst pilgrims on the citadel look like the pilgrims in pharloom

[half horizon]

They work 24/7, what did you expect?

[finite wind]

Even the ones that cover their faces sometimes resemble other pilgrims

[sonic sleet]

at first I thought that bell beast just simply ate someone carrying the silk heart which resulted in absorbing the silk heart and created so much silk that bell beast got tangled up

[finite wind]

I wouldn't expect a shell to age in a way that changes its form

At best it would have some marks

Like elderbug's

[half horizon]

Hmmm that actually makes sense, but who would've been carrying such a think a be weak to the point of being eaten by the bell beast?

[finite wind]

Posting this with an uncle grandpa pfp and gigachad username is crazy

But it's a good theory, post it on Reddit I wanna see what other people think

[half horizon]

It's an allusion to factory workers and how that changed how they behaved and even looked like

[finite wind]

Ig so, I can't think of anything else

[sonic sleet]

some of underworkers are almost like their pilgrim version but im guessing you mean enemies like underlofts and undercranks which don't have their pilgrim counterpart which I assume they were last of their kind and rest died out

[finite wind]

I'm mainly talking about the flying dudes, idk if that's their name

Oh yeah the big guy too

And the small bugs with shells

We don't see those types of pilgrims

[sonic sleet]

they could also be in familiar situation as loam

they were hand picked by citadel since they were bigger and could fly but weren't looking good enough so they assigned them to work

[finite wind]

Sure, my grip is that we don't find them in the world

[wet walrus]

I have never seen someone in this chat brave enough to say "bardoon is hegemol"

[sonic sleet]

maybe he just retired and changed his name also grew a lot

[whole holly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INxSrr4tg6w

this is interesting, Shaman Crest actually has visible runes when using silk skills

[proud gulch]

Stupid Question: if there is a Grandmother Silk, then is there a Grandfather Silk?

[foggy fractal]

not that we know of

[lyric musk]

hmm you've got a point

[silk dirge]

grand father song

[eternal timber]

Silk seemed to magic the making of her daughters- we see her literally update a beast's with silk in fs memory

[half horizon]

That's interesting because we only call her that because that's how hornet thinks of her. I wonder what other bugs call her aside from higher being, ancient being, silk m1lf, or mother. Btw woundn't Lance be Hornet's aunt?

Answering your question, we don't know if GMS ever had a partner or anything about her past

[blissful harbor]

they call her like pale monarch and shit

[finite wind]

not really

GMS didn't create the weavers

she just anthropomorphize them ig

[half horizon]

wym? She literally evolved those bugs into weavers

[half horizon]

yeah that's what I meant

[finite wind]

that doesn't mean she brood them

so she isn't their mother or anything

not blood related

[half horizon]

she is Lance's mother

[finite wind]

yes only lace

[half horizon]

yeah

[finite wind]

not hornet nor the other weavers

so lace is not related to hornet at all

[half horizon]

but hornet sees her as her grandmother

hence the name "Grandmother Silk"

[finite wind]

well hornet's wrong then

[blissful harbor]

the answer is she is not biologically hornets aunt, but like Silk still effectively created the weavers, there is a relation there but it’s very distant and pretty much amounts to the silk they share
not an aunt in the literal sense
or any sense really

[finite wind]

her grandmother is herra's mother

[half horizon]

Nah bro get out 😭

alright, I get your point, the thing is that the weavers only gained full agency and consciousness when they became weavers, and since grandmother silk basically created the weavers in the sense that she brought them to that state, they saw her as their mother

[blissful harbor]

herrah would not be herrah without gms
she would be a pharlid crawling around
she is their mother in thst she literally created their way of life, they aren’t pharlids anymore
she made some thin new oit of something old and she is for all intents and purposes the mother of the weavers

same way that the christian God is humanity’s “father” he is not your literal father who gave birth to you but he made you

[half horizon]

consequently, hornet sees her as her grandma

[finite wind]

I also get your point, but they are still not blood related and can't be treated like tht at least from our pov

[half horizon]

they are silk related

https://tenor.com/view/think-thinking-thoughts-person-all-the-time-gif-1836332222206272183

[blissful harbor]

embed fail

laugh at this user

[finite wind]

not really, god literally created humans he didn't grab monkeys and turned them into humans

or he created the beings that turned into monkeys that turned into humans

GMS only created lace and phantom

[blissful harbor]

she created the weavers

they are not pharlids anymore

[half horizon]

alright brother, in that sense your great great great great great grandmother was a bunch of minerals and organic matter

[finite wind]

she turned and existing creature into them, she did not give them life

[blissful harbor]

if a weaver gives birth you aren’t gonna get a pharlid baby

[half horizon]

they are silk related then, you don't need genetics necessarily to be related, at least not in that universe

[blissful harbor]

shes still literally the creator
she took a life and made a completely new one
doesn’t matter if it used to be something before, she created a new species
she is effectively the mother

[finite wind]

if you want to talk in the game version or whatever, then fine, but if we are using the real word definitions, then no

[half horizon]

yea, that's why I am appealing to silk-related rather than genetically related

[blissful harbor]

well yes

[half horizon]

weavers don't exist in the real world buddy

[blissful harbor]

i don’t see gms shitting out pharlids

[finite wind]

I'm talking about the real word definitions of aunt and grandmother buddy

[half horizon]

ok, that applies to this world

not that one

I mean, partially

[finite wind]

you could say lace is her "silk-aunt" like we don't call step aunts just aunts

[edgy nebula]

a bit weird how judges just kill whoever is sinful but the skab exists to punish said sinners

why dont the judges just take the sinful bugs to the slab

[heavy gyro]

the slab is for sinners in the citadel

[finite wind]

then why are the guards all over pharloom

capturing bugs

also, I don't remember the big bug in prision being from the citadel

[half horizon]

That’s assuming GMS wasn’t the weavers’ mother—which I disagree with. So, let’s explore how genealogical trees actually work.

To avoid Origin of Species–level debates, let’s begin with a clearly defined first generation. For clarity, we’ll use bacteria. Bacteria reproduce through binary fission, a form of asexual cell division. In simple terms, binary fission can be defined as a bacterium splitting into two new, genetically identical daughter cells. However, bacteria are also capable of editing their own genomes through several mechanisms, such as transformation, which involves taking DNA from the environment and incorporating it into their own chromosomal DNA.

If a single bacterium gradually acquires DNA totaling the size of its original genome and becomes something completely different, we would still say it is more closely related to its “mother” cell, since it shares more genetic information with that original cell than with any other bacterium. However, if we imagine a scenario in which that same bacterium acquires an amount of DNA equivalent to its own genome from a single, different dead bacterium and somehow incorporates it, then it would be just as related to its original “mother” as it is to the bacterium from which it acquired half of its genetic code.

.
Now let’s apply this framework to GMS and the weavers. There was an individual—or group of individuals—that originally gave rise to the pharlids. Those entities would be their original biological parents. However, GMS altered them in such a way that their nature is at least half derived from GMS and half from their original progenitors. Moreover, their descendants (i.e. Hornet) inherit these traits, meaning that silk functions as a legitimate medium for transmitting genetic information. Therefore, GMS does, in fact, qualify as their mother.

[limpid summit]

Monomon created the jellyfish I don’t think she’s their mother in thr same way

It’s a found family sort of thing

[half horizon]

no because the transformation is inheritable

[heavy gyro]

idk

[finite wind]

she didn't give birth to them so she isn't their mother, I'm sorry but that's how the definition of mother works

if you want to say she is their silkmother or whatever then again, idc

[half horizon]

no that's not how that works

[finite wind]

but she is not their mother nor hornets grandmother in the real word definition of mother

[half horizon]

she is, they literally have half or more than half of their hereditary information from GMS

[half horizon]

.

[finite wind]

that's not how it works, are scientist who modify creatures with genes that go on through generations related to them?

[sinful nimbus]

Mask Maker refers to GMS as the weavers' mother

[finite wind]

again, they could be using the term with a different definition on the game

[half horizon]

Not the scientist, but whatever the source of those mutations is, if at least half of the organism’s genetic code originates from that entity, then yes—it is effectively that organism’s parent.

[finite wind]

ok, then are virus our ancestors?

because we all have our dna code from ancient virus

[half horizon]

No, because we share less than 1% of our genetic code with each individual virus

[sinful nimbus]

I mean its not a traditional motherly relationship but the game treats her as such I don't think these semantics really matter a whole lot

[limpid summit]

I think the point is that she is their mother but it’s not entirely a biological thing

It’s like what Shakra talks about

[finite wind]

nono, virus infected our ancestors and we have their code now

exactly the same as GMS

it is also transferable from generations to generations

[limpid summit]

Why didn’t PK make 30 dreamers

[finite wind]

it's the topic of the moment

[sinful nimbus]

Why didn't PK dream a Vespa that would be willing to become a dreamer and pull it out from his mind red-memory style, is he stupid?

[half horizon]

not really, the changes caused by hyperviruses have minimal effects to be considered a parent, but if half of our DNA came from a single virus, then that specific virus would be our ancestor indeed

[finite wind]

I don't think that's how it works at all

[half horizon]

Why don't we have 30 Jesuses?

[limpid summit]

Bro 😭

[half horizon]

Go study science then bro, your mom is your genetic mom literally because you share 50% of your DNA with her

[finite wind]

she is my mother because she gave birth to me

[limpid summit]

So true

[half horizon]

no, we have surrogate pregnancies

[limpid summit]

Imagine if we had a half Wyrm half bee named Tarantula instead

[finite wind]

ok sure, she is my mother because she gave me life

she created me

she didn't modify me

[half horizon]

She did, in fact, your entire body derived from a single cell (egg) that transformed after hereditary info was shoved into it (sperm), just like the weavers

[proper plover]

Why does tipp and pill talk like the way they do? I love them but are they dumb?

[limpid summit]

Dialects

[finite wind]

no that's not how it works at all lmaoooo

[limpid summit]

They arent dumb that’s mean

[finite wind]

we are not ovaries that are given genetic info from sperms

we don't exist until those 2 join together

[proper plover]

Is Just that i never seen anyone talk like that never

[finite wind]

and I'm the one who needs to study wtf

[limpid summit]

A lot of dudes talk weird

The snitchbugs too

[half horizon]

dude the egg literally changes CHEMICALLY after the sperm delivers the genetic code 😭

[sinful nimbus]

Wow

Very insensitive

[half horizon]

we do, the egg is a cell, not human though

[finite wind]

we are humans not egg

[blissful harbor]

what is this convo

[half horizon]

we were eggs before we became humans, just like the weavers

[proper plover]

In theory, they both are strong bc they delivered things across pharloon even with the haunting

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think most people are approaching motherhood from a genetic perspective

[finite wind]

no we weren't that's a completely different being

[half horizon]

how so?

[proper plover]

Also, they both resist the haunting somehow??

[limpid summit]

Star question

[half horizon]

The only thing that changed our nature was the new DNA that was inserted into the egg by the sperm cell

[sinful nimbus]

What

[limpid summit]

You know how the chains respond to an infected vessel

[sinful nimbus]

Yea

[limpid summit]

If the chains were broken by an attacker and PV killed it would the chains wrap around it again

Or would it just sort of be standing there

[finite wind]

the thing is that you keep mentioning our and we as if we were the egg before hand when we weren't

[sinful nimbus]

Probably?

[half horizon]

dude, were you an unicorn???

[proper plover]

Does anyone know How and why some bugs simply dont get haunted? Like pill and tipp that were Just travelling across pharloon and not getting haunted?

[finite wind]

I study medicine and this is the first time in my life someone says that we exist as the egg

crazy stuff

[proper plover]

Does gms just despise them tô not mess with them or like them idk

[half horizon]

Alright, what do sperm do when they enter in contact with an egg cell?

[finite wind]

maybe it is related to the amount of silk in them

[half horizon]

give me detailed explanation please

[finite wind]

deliver lot of stuff, genome, centriolos (idk the name in English) and don't remember more

mainly half the genome

[proper plover]

Wait, but like, i get why pilgrims get haunted, but why more animal bugs get haunted? Like the aknids and such? Why do they have silk, i think HK had a explanation as to why some bugs didnt get infected but SK doesnt

[finite wind]

I don't think animals are haunted

[blissful harbor]

they are, and it’s cause silk is basically microplastics
it’s everywhere, in the water, in the air
if a creature had it before the haunting, GMS just had to look for the silk in their bodies so it was easier

[proper plover]

But like

Isnt soul the same?

[blissful harbor]

gms uses silk

[proper plover]

Why silk now? IS gms tuning soul into silk

[blissful harbor]

it’s pretty much just soul

[proper plover]

Inside bugs?

[blissful harbor]

her silk is separate from the normal soul of a bug one would assume

[half horizon]

No, that’s not how it works. The sperm cell penetrates the first “layer” of the egg, and its head embeds into the egg cell, releasing its DNA along with a small group of regulatory proteins that initiate early zygotic development. Nearly everything else (organelles, structural components, and metabolic machinery) comes from the egg. From there, development proceeds normally, eventually resulting in a baby and, later, the person you are today.

The pharlids function in an analogous way. They exist independently, GMS introduces silk, and then boom: they become weavers, and this trait is inheritable. In this framework, the original parents together count as a single genetic parent, while GMS constitutes the other parent.

[proper plover]

Im confused, like hk had soul into enemies, and now in sk, ALL enemies have silk, even like, the dream enemies or Bosses, why do they have silk If the haunting was not a thing in like, the coral Tower or karmalita

[finite wind]

nope, because eggs and sperms are reproductary cells from another being, they can't create life on their own without each other. pharlids or however the non-mutated weavers are called, can reproduce obviously

GMS is not needed for them

and idk if weavers can reproduce themselves either

because they all seem female

[blissful harbor]

GMS hes been around since the start of the kingdom
her presence just causes silk in the environment seemingly
either intentionally or not on her part

[finite wind]

not that it would matter but just sth that came to my head

[half horizon]

Sure, but I am talking about heredity not about what counts as a cell. I literally said it works in an analogous way

[proper plover]

Hmmm, that begs the question, we know pale king arrived at hollownest From another place, só like, in constrast, do we know How gms came tô be? Did she Just puff into existence?

[blissful harbor]

i like to think so, thst HBs like Rad and GMS
who are just like clumps of a certain element, be that essence or silk, just kinda spawn in one day

[half horizon]

The Pale King as actually a worm before, so he probably had parents

[finite wind]

I'm not saying that your analogue doesn't work because you are comparing cells to multicelullar organism, I´m saying it doesn't work because you are comparing creatures that can create life on its own from theirselves without needing previous life, to a being that in order to "become a mother" needs previously independent life to just modify it

[half horizon]

GMS is very different compared to him, as she can make silk like bugs but cannot be identified as any known bein gin the universe

[finite wind]

by independent I mean they can continue reproducing without her

[proper plover]

Whats HB? :0

[blissful harbor]

higher being

gods basically

[proper plover]

But mortal gods

[blissful harbor]

they aren’t really mortal

all of them have to be killed in a certain way (that we know of)
like Hornet had to absorb GMS to kill her, Rad had to be consumed by the void…PK kinda killed his elf but same shit a god killing a god

[proper plover]

No? Doesnt like you know, the end of both games, is like, they ded

[blissful harbor]

died by extraordinary means

[proper plover]

Hmmm, true true

Tho actually wait

If gms is dead, does Silk stop being produced? The bestiary says GMS is the primary source of silk

Ig hornet makes silk

But thats it

[blissful harbor]

in weaver queen, hornet is the new gms
in sotv, silk is still a thing but like, unless you already have the skill like hornet i would assume soul infused silk just becomes a lost art

debatable, but i’m like 90% sure spiders can make normal silk

[half horizon]

You’re right in that sense, comparing them to eggs and sperm is flawed. However, in this case, I return to my earlier comparison with bacteria, which can modify their genomes using external genetic material. Given that a genetic parent can reasonably be defined as anyone that contributes half of an organism’s genetic code, GMS qualifies as the weavers’ mother.

[blissful harbor]

well not debatable, i don’t think the distant village is made entirely of soul silk

or that the city used soul silk to write on

so yea spiders can make their own normal silk

[half horizon]

yo btw why are we having such a high level debate about fictional biology in games 😭

[finite wind]

I understand what you mean and was just thinking, if I grabbed a rat and for some reason I could make his lower part be human with my genes (50%), would I call it my son? not really even though by your definition it is. However, if I did that to another rat and those rats had a baby with my genes and a human lower body part, would I call them my grandson? yes. But because my genes actually contributed to creating life, they didn't modify it

so in this sense, I think hornet can reasonably call GMS her grandmother, but the weavers can't call her a mother

[limpid summit]

Better than what we usually get

I applaud you both

[finite wind]

because it's fun

it makes us think

[finite wind]

since she didn't take part in giving them life

even though she mutated them with her "genes"

[half horizon]

Okay, so the difference lies in whether the genetic intervention happens during development or after development. Why is that distinction relevant? I mean, if we put that into a pedigree, the weavers would have 3 parents. In fact, their are more related to GMS than they are to each of the original parents, as half of their hereditary info came from GMS while the other 50% came from both original parents (25% each).

[finite wind]

not during development even before that

when there was no pharlid even

that's the distinction

[finite wind]

I wouldn't call a thing that intrudes his genes onto another being that's already fully functional a parent of that thing, I think this comes too

for it to be a parent, it would have to have been involved in creating the life of the thing

and for the bacteria thing, if the bacteria didn't need the genome of the other intruder to self reproduce, I would also not call it the parent of the new bacteria

which it didn't since they are asexual

[half horizon]

If GMS merely altered phenotype without use her own heritable genetic information, she would count as a modifier, analogous to genetic engineering or artificial epigenetic changes. However, if GMS inserts her own genetic code, and that code becomes integrated, developmentally active, and inheritable, then she is no longer simply editing an organism, she is co-originating a new lineage.

Additionally, it’s important to emphasize that this modification is developmentally transformative. The pharlid becomes a weaver. It’s not as if GMS were simply producing a “silk pharlid” or applying a minor modification. She created a new lineage that derives from both her own genetic material and that of the original pharlids. From a genetic-functional point of view, she can be considered the weavers’ “mom.”

That said, if we accept your point that true parenthood requires direct involvement in the organism’s "creation" during zygotic development, then GMS can be categorized into an intermediate relation-state. She is clearly more than a modifier, but perhaps not a parent in the strict sense, maybe something closer to a "co-parent."

[finite wind]

sure, but btw, she would only be creating a new lineage or species if the weavers could reproduce

[half horizon]

they can (hornet)

[finite wind]

which I don't think they can, at least, not that I'm aware of

[finite wind]

they needed an external source

[half horizon]

we also do....

that's how sexual reproduction works

[finite wind]

for a species to be considered distinctive from another, that species should be able to reproduce on its own

[finite wind]

by external source I meant outside the species

"A species is often defined as a group of individuals that actually or potentially interbreed in nature." from the first google result

[half horizon]

She experienced a form of gestation, and given that the PK is a higher being capable of generating other beings from void and also stabilizing them with masks (a power normally exclusive to shamans and mask-makers), I think it’s reasonable to consider that he can reproduce with any species (including the White Lady, by the way).

We could also say that hornet is also another species derived from weavers and the pk.

and since herah experienced gestation, it is implicit she is reproductively functional

[finite wind]

yes, I agree with both of those things

they still don't contradict what I said

[half horizon]

this does

[half horizon]

oh wait, I didn't see this

[half horizon]

yea but that doesn't work with sk given hornet's existance

[finite wind]

since the weavers are female pharlids apparently, I can see a magical being able to make her utherus work

[finite wind]

hornet is not a weaver

[half horizon]

exactly

[finite wind]

hence, there's no evidence of weavers being able to interbreed

hence no proof of them being an unique species

[half horizon]

species can interbread appearently in sk universe

[half horizon]

else hornet would be a weaver

[finite wind]

no, weavers are pharlids modified from GMS apparently

she is half weaver

otherwise weavers would be pharlids

but you yourself said they weren't

[half horizon]

She is a weaver, but only half, so you can’t call her a weaver. Similarly, you wouldn’t call the offspring of a zebra and a horse either species, since they are genetically and physiologically distinct. In the same way, weavers are neither pharlids nor GMS.

[finite wind]

yeah, so weavers can't reproduce, hence they aren't a new species

I don't understand your point

[half horizon]

they have reproductive machinery, the only reason they went extict is because there were no males for some reason

that's why hornet exists

because pk works as a compatible male

[finite wind]

no, as I said, hornet does not count since for a species to be considered one, they need to have the ability to INTERBREED

[radiant badger]

Got a theory on why there are so many stone bugs around the world of hollow knight, specifically hallownest.

They mention everyone leaving a stain behind when they die, What if after some time, much like the silk caccoon hornet has their stain or regret turns into one of these

[finite wind]

in this case, weaver x weaver

hornet is a hybrid

and so are weavers imo because they can't breed

[half horizon]

but they do, pk literally had sex with herah

[finite wind]

dude, interbreed means breeding within the same species

pale king is not a weaver

[finite wind]

I mean in this case, it means that

[half horizon]

but that is only a thing in our universe because different species cannot reproduce, but in sk they can, and thus that definition doesn't work here

[finite wind]

they can reproduce, in fact, even hybrids can reproduce in our world

the hybrid of lion and tiget were able to reproduce once

but they are exceptions

[fresh badger]

🥀 you're saying that a beast abducted and shipped through the magic silk horror factory and coming out as a sapient humanoid (bugoid?) entity is still the same kind of organism as the original beast?

[half horizon]

that's because they have close ancestry. In fact, taxonomy is a very confusing and misleading way of comparing organisms, as species is not a defined thing. And in that scenario, tigers and lions are the same species, but we don't call that because their fur look different. I prefer using common ancestry rather than speciation

[finite wind]

no, that's not what I said at all

I said what I said

[fresh badger]

You said weavers are still pharlids because ??? something reproduction

[half horizon]

but just having a reproductive machinery is enough because that means that, if there were male weavers, they would be able tot reproduce

[finite wind]

but there aren't

maybe GMS can't create them

which would mean, she's not able to modify life into a new species

she can just mutate

[half horizon]

why not? According to your definition, they can interbreed, if there is a male

[finite wind]

also, herra for some reason does not look like a normal weaver at all, you could even argue she's been modified even more, but since I have no proof of that I won't take it into account

[finite wind]

but there isn't a male weaver

[half horizon]

such a dramatic change can't be called mutation

[limpid summit]

That’s the result of a retcon tbf

In SS she has a normal body type

[fresh badger]

I still dont get the point of this convo

[edgy nebula]

it started from someone saying lace is hornet's aunt iirc

[finite wind]

I think it can by the actual definition of mutation, (which btw, a mutation is what creates different individuals and eventually different species so it wouldn't contradict yourself to call it a mutation)

[fresh badger]

She is!

[half horizon]

oh wait, we do have male weavers

[finite wind]

yeah... that's my point

[edgy nebula]

we dont

[half horizon]

it says that herah flew to hallownest with the weaver clan

that implies that all those "spiders" are also weavers

[fresh badger]

What is "it"

[finite wind]

you could argue that GMS didn't create them so they wouldn't be able to reproduce so they would always depend on GMS to create new weavers, but that's speculation

[fresh badger]

The deeplings and deephunters??

[edgy nebula]

there are two spider clans in deepnest, they simply adopted weaver's looks

[finite wind]

imma be honest, with the whole new way of how weavers came to me, idk how the other weaver like creatures from HK came to be

[fresh badger]

Retcons

[finite wind]

what is the retcon

that they don't exist?

[half horizon]

oh, ur right

[fresh badger]

The retcon is weavers being a fully female species incapable of self reproduction meaning a fullblood weaver offspring like the little weavers is impossible

[half horizon]

but either way weavers are capable of reproduction, so they are a different species as there could be male weavers, we just don't know if there are any

[finite wind]

are they?

[half horizon]

herrah literally got pregnant

[finite wind]

you could argue they are almost immortal, like hornet

[edgy nebula]

theyre capable of reproduction it's just very painful

[half horizon]

they died

[finite wind]

ugh again, within themselves

[edgy nebula]

could be, if they dont use their silk

[finite wind]

I mean from age...

[half horizon]

yes, they can

[fresh badger]

Again what is the point of this 😭

[finite wind]

since a big important thing of silksong is that silk prolongues life

and weavers have lot of silk

[half horizon]

they did die from age as GMS was sealed. How else would they die?

[fresh badger]

What are the actual claims being debated vroo

[half horizon]

we are debating whether GMS is weavers' mom or not

[finite wind]

starvation

[half horizon]

there are thousands of bugs and resources available

[edgy nebula]

weavers die when their silk fades/wanes presumably

[fresh badger]

Genetically who knows who cares

Adoptively or whatever she is their mother and 'creator'

[finite wind]

👆

[half horizon]

there is a cafeteria in the citadel, so you could argue they had to eat something

[finite wind]

wait if that's so, how come there are no more weavers? can't they just reproduce as you said?

[fresh badger]

You could argue since she is the primordial source of silk her silk that uplifted the weavers carries her dna/essence

[finite wind]

or maybe they...can't?

maybe they depend on GMS to make them?

[fresh badger]

Theres a whole yapfest about the weavers being cursed with reproduction being a super difficult painful feat, and the only weaver offspring are all mixed blood

[half horizon]

they are weavers, they could, but we don't know why they didn't. Maybe there was no male, maybe they simply didn't want to continue GMS "divine" legacy, idk bro, pick an option

[finite wind]

from where?

[half horizon]

but I gotta go. If GMS is not their genetic mom, she is at least their emotional mom

[finite wind]

sure thing

[fresh badger]

Hornet talks about it to somebody 🥀

[finite wind]

ion remember

but well, bye

[fresh badger]

`I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task.

• I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.
• Are you too an attempt to defy that cruel constraint?
  A flawed attempt. A life spun from rune and shell, sustained only by its cage. My thoughts may mimic a Weavers, but my senses are my own.
  Over time, that difference brought only distance between us.`

@finite wind

[edgy nebula]

there also literally are other weavers out there, as mentioned in the cradle

the weaver children listed are just the only weavers gms had found

[finite wind]

interesting

so they can't

[shy sorrel]

Why and how are both trobbios still alive?

[limpid summit]

It’s one dude

[foggy fractal]

he just is
theres also a lot of people in the citadel that are just still alive

[edgy nebula]

i like the theory they put on the table that there might be two trobbios

[shy sorrel]

Why does everything else die when we kill em but not him?

[edgy nebula]

hornet either stayed the killing blow or he concluded his performance right before she killed him

[shy sorrel]

Ok

[crimson patio]

Cuz Hornet didnt fight him with the intent to kill

Just like with second sentinel

She didn’t kill it

[shy sorrel]

why wouldnt she kill him like the others

[crimson patio]

Who knows

Maybe she thought him not being haunted is rare so she left him be

[shy sorrel]

How do you know if something is haunted or not

[foggy fractal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6Qa8Q9zTWU the needolin shows puppet strings if haunted

[shy sorrel]

I see

Skull tyrant looks like me when i wake up

[foggy fractal]

now that I'm watching this video its intresting how Widow still has code/animations/dialogue for needolin even though you get the ability after her fight

[edgy nebula]

things like sister splinter do aswell

[blissful harbor]

TC added stuff like that in HK
like things that had dream nail dialogue before you could actually get to it

[edgy nebula]

its weird

[sinful nimbus]

you can get dreamnail before false knight

[blissful harbor]

if you’re not a psycho

the average player

[sinful nimbus]

This is from a time when TC respected psychos who wanted to sequence break 😔

[edgy nebula]

how tc felt making sister splinter ndd one of the biggest foreshadows for nyleth (you physically cant get needolin unless you kill her)

[foggy fractal]

theres also the thing with the dream bosses having dialogue but not being stunned with the needolin which is also weird

[edgy nebula]

unless you can idk if there's a skip

[sinful nimbus]

You can

[edgy nebula]

ah

[sinful nimbus]

You use taunt to lure a phacia and then pogo off of it

Its really cool I didn't know taunt could do that

[marble oasis]

Are they brothers or lovers or what?

[marble oasis]

Bro how did you miss this 😭

[sinful nimbus]

Thought I tuned into a green prince convo

[edgy nebula]

if theyre lovers thatd just be green prince

[foggy fractal]

imagine 😭

[edgy nebula]

two bossfights with gay bugs who can make tornados

sounds like green prince to me

[marble oasis]

Trobbio is a Verdanian but he was kicked out for being red instead of green

[sinful nimbus]

He's red for an amazing reason

[edgy nebula]

what is the reason

[marble oasis]

He can’t be placed there

[sinful nimbus]

He has worked in the Underworks for 10 years

[foggy fractal]

silksong characters who can sing vs silksong characters who can't sing

[marble oasis]

He’s red for a completely ordinary reason

[lilac hedge]

Dam theres still people talking bout the lore of this game

[marble oasis]

That’s what i’m saying

We already solved it all

[light verge]

paper thin SS lore vs the chad opaque-annoying as hell HK lore

[foggy fractal]

opaque?

[finite wind]

would be cool

[lilac hedge]

I mean i ve looked here multiple times the only reason people talk is to disprove someones dumb theory or teach some youngling about lore

Like the lore is resolved and the only thing left is speculations

[graceful grail]

How is Trobbio so resistant to the haunting?? Even after the black threads??

Also, Trobbio must have been Rly old, or be a descendant of generations of Performers because the stage there has been there a while probably.

[jovial girder]

I think he may be a traveler who came to pharloom who is also not devote, meaning he wouldn’t be affected by the whiteward experiments and wouldn’t be turned by gms due to his nihilism

[graceful grail]

What was the stage for then??

[jovial girder]

Not sure, maybe he travel to pharloom right before its collapse and they built it for various performances to keep gms asleep

[graceful grail]

The stage could have been where the Scrollreaders Preached

[jovial girder]

That probably makes more sense

[graceful grail]

Since its so close to the vault

[graceful grail]

Ohh, the sign to get to it has 3 vaultkeper heads!!!

[light verge]

hard to understand/explain

also hola ando

[rancid glen]

hi