sk-lore

[tawdry flare]

Can you kill oil

[dense sphinx]

No

[sinful nimbus]

THK's shade vanishes when Radiance explodes from it

[tawdry flare]

Then no, you cannae kill void

[sinful nimbus]

Might've just vaporized instead of being destroyed though

[dense sphinx]

Probably because the radiance is technically the fucking sun

[sudden imp]

is it tho?

[drifting walrus]

The sun is a deadly lazer

[dense sphinx]

Kinda what we saw when we challenged it

https://tenor.com/view/gabe-lore-radiance-meme-fight-gif-3730141336693630501

[tawdry flare]

that’s for aura and hype. she’s not actually the sun

[drifting walrus]

Yeah it’s RADIANT

[dense sphinx]

Sun of the dream world I’m gonna say

[drifting walrus]

Yknow like the radiance

[edgy nebula]

fatbrett's video on the radince is so dookie

[sudden imp]

dream sequence and her being radiant isn't the same as her being the sun.

[edgy nebula]

"pale king tried to erase her entire legacy" retire

[tawdry flare]

the pale king is an antagonizing colonialist fatbrett is correct

[drifting walrus]

Do we think pk knew about the statue on crystal peak

[dense sphinx]

So about the blackwyrm

What the fuck is that

[edgy nebula]

is he a fucking genius?

[tawdry flare]

Me sprinkling in worldbuilding that I will never elaborate on:

[edgy nebula]

a team cherry special

[cerulean crest]

this is still alive ?

[crystal marsh]

not literally

[crystal marsh]

he isn't a colonist

[spark valve]

not in the ways people try to imply but technically he is

Sort of

Adjacent

But that’s superficial and comparing him to real historical examples is uh weird

[sturdy knot]

Alright, how is the citidel powering it’s cog-work core?

[edgy nebula]

using silkflies for the robots, using steam for everything else

[sturdy knot]

How do they make the steam?

They aren’t cutting shellwood down last I checked

[drifting walrus]

Pharloom is essentially a giant volcano

[cinder remnant]

Adding on to that volcano bit there's also vents leading up in the deep docks

[sturdy knot]

But how would that pollute bilewater?

If it is just a volcano, why not send it all up

[cinder remnant]

Volcano heats water from bilewater

Steam is more powerful than just hot air

And even if they aren't heating the water, the fumes from molten rock and metal are toxic

[muted lantern]

What do you guys think scorpions would look like in the hk world

[unkempt quail]

Hello everyone,
The Hollow Knight Text Database has been updated with the entirety of Silksong text! You can now browse, filter, and share any text from Hollow Knight and Silksong at the same time. The updated app can be found here: https://github.com/jdvannest/HollowKnightTextDatabase.
Happy Lore Hunting!

[sinful nimbus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy0wnnJLV7g

[muted lantern]

Video unavailable
This video contains content from UMG, who has blocked it from display on this website or application

[sinful nimbus]

Discord trying to hide the truth 😔

[muted lantern]

Its criminal character design to have a scorpion charcter with no tail. Thats like... their whole thing.

So i doubt it

[sinful nimbus]

The tail is in the memento duh

[muted lantern]

This is some el chiefo shit

[sinful nimbus]

Great minds think alike

[muted lantern]

I forget did chiefo say herrahs a drapemite

[sinful nimbus]

He came up wth Gilly is Gurr's daughter

Herrah drapemite is slop my goat would never come up with

[muted lantern]

That ones kinda grown on me

even if unlikely

you could tell a good story with that as the concept

[finite wind]

Killed first sinner, if I understood it right, GMS turned the little spider enemies into the weavers?

[sinful nimbus]

yea

[limpid summit]

I thought better of you

Herrah Drapemite is peak

Just as Herrah (who learned from Pharlid Weavers) has Pharlid attack patterns, Devouts (who learned from Herrah) have Drapemite attack patterns

It’s a really interesting parallle

[finite wind]

I haven't finished the game yet but do we later find out why did she do that?

[sinful nimbus]

no they don't???

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[limpid summit]

They literally do

The parallels dude

[sinful nimbus]

Drapemites like jump at you n stuff

with very rapid strikes too

Devouts make a lot more use of their claws to block and they don't jump they just go for like 4 relatively slow strikes

[rough nest]

Why is running ancient ancestral knowledge lost to time

[plain gazelle]

"Dash forward and sprint with unnatural speed, as though gliding upon Silk."

[frigid belfry]

exploitation and steam

[sturdy knot]

Insane answer

[limpid summit]

Devouts are also big and fat

Herrah likely got older and more deliberate with her technique

Her Silk must have waned after all

Jumping also isn’t the tactic when you literally fill the entire tunnel

You don’t need to

[chilly gyro]

So, is Hera a drape mite? Masks are shown to be both metaphorical faces as well as biologically born faces if you look at the “mask” flies from HK. Drape mites have tiny little bits of fabric over their heads with holes to see out of, like a mask. Widow also seems to have a pieces of fabric over her head but only as a replacement after the biological one was removed, proving that fabric works as a substitute to whatever the mask makers are using. Hera wears a mask over her shall, which is covering two horns, similar to the two horns of the drape mite.

[spark valve]

no, herrah is not a drapemite, that's not how masks work, etc

[limpid summit]

Yes, Herrah is a Drapemite, that’s not how masks work, etc

[graceful copper]

yes

whatrs a drapemite

oh that stupid thing

[spark valve]

weavers are ascended pharlids, if there was a variety of things that got ascended they wouldn't have made every single weaver we see follow the same template aside from herrah who is obviously a handwave because they retconned her being a weaver in the first place

[graceful copper]

dont drapemites have like cloth over their head like widow they look simlar the cloth atleast

[chilly gyro]

Mad I can’t post a picture to help illustrate my point yet cause of the server update

[chilly gyro]

Yes. That is the basis of my theory

[graceful copper]

ok

[limpid summit]

Real talk she canonically is 99% a Pharlid whose biological face just evolved slightly differently

Widow and Drapemite similarities are coincidental Widow’s head bag is just covering her skinless face

[graceful copper]

maybe both

but after looking at it i can see pharlid more

[limpid summit]

Or Herrah was the only mite weaver and that’s why she was the Beast

[chilly gyro]

Wouldn’t it technically be shell-less face because weaver heads are built like Christmas ornaments

[limpid summit]

If they had kept her big body then DrapeHerrah would have a bit more weight (heh) but as it stands no they went as far as they could to retcon her without changing the Hornet horns

[graceful copper]

i might keep my theory of both

[limpid summit]

Keep your theory

It’s not like it’s outright disproven

[graceful copper]

thanks

[chilly gyro]

I think the non circular head also keeps Hornet from going full stick figure without the cloak

[graceful copper]

i see that

most weavers are like this no

[limpid summit]

Every single weaver besides First Sinner and Herrah has the same head

[plain gazelle]

i don't think the pharlid hunter journal would have hornet saying that "Something in their assault reminds me of my own skill" if hornet was descended from a hypothetical drapemite weaver

for me that's the big evidence that team cherry didn't have drapemite herrah in mind

[limpid summit]

To be fair that point is refutable

She wouldn’t have been trained by Herrah she would have been trained by the Pharlid weavers and adapted their techniques

So that one makes sense

[spark valve]

but that's a pretty bad faith argument

if tc's intent was that herrah was a drapemite they would not have written the pharlid one that way and had the drapemite one not indicate any recognition whatsoever

she wasn't even trained by weavers

she was trained by vespa

[frigid belfry]

its a retcon, as simple as that, herrah wasnt even intended to be a weaver in the original

[spark valve]

they very directly went back and retroactively changed herrah's design to be as weavery as possible without losing the horns

[frigid belfry]

the flavor text in the journal is probably tc sticking to their principles about multiple canons, interpretations etc, but it seems they want herrah to be a weaver now

[edgy nebula]

to be fair, pharlid’s also have different bodies and they still become all black when turned into weavers

[limpid summit]

What

Youre right that she’s probably not a Drapemite

But like she wasn’t trained by Herrah anyway

[spark valve]

she wasn't trained by weavers at all

[limpid summit]

The dialogue makes the same amount of sense either way

Huh

[spark valve]

she was trained by vespa

[limpid summit]

Three queens as it was originally thought out ain’t canon

[spark valve]

it's in red memory

[limpid summit]

It doesn’t mean she was raised by WL and trained by Vespa exclusively

We get snippets of her life as a reference to that idea

Tammoooooo

[spark valve]

vespa is clearly shown as the one who trained her the weavers taught her the craft but come on

the hive even made her needle

[limpid summit]

Yeah but Vespa didn’t teach her silk stuff

[spark valve]

anyways if tc intended herrah to be a drapemite the drapemite entry would reflect that in some way lol

[limpid summit]

Well the point is they didn’t intend anything

[spark valve]

pharlids don't use silk stuff that's not what she's talking about there

[limpid summit]

They intended for you not to think about it

I don’t actually believe Herrah Drapemite but imo it is better than other justifications for existing retcons like “little weavers are deephunter cosplayers”

[spark valve]

she's saying that there's an innate connection between her and the pharlids' combat, though she doesn't just fight on instinct alone

[sinful nimbus]

little weaverrs being an enslaved species lowk makes sense though

Herrah ain't above that

[drifting walrus]

I meant that’s how they get the steam

[tawdry flare]

i reckon it was pk's idea

[low steppe]

big issue with Herrah Drapemite is that Hornet is always called a spider, but mites aren’t spiders

[sinful nimbus]

TRUE

We're overcomplicating it

[low steppe]

Why does Hornet still have her needle in the ending cutscene if it’s supposed to be stuck in the ceiling of the Abyss pulling her up? Does it retract all the way back to her while she is knocked out?? Is Team Cherry stupid???

[sturdy knot]

alright, but what could the citidel have that would pollute bilewater?

[sturdy knot]

if you are going to go on that, lace cuts the one arm off of gms in snared silk, but in lost lace arena you can see that it was the other arm what was cut off

[low steppe]

Is Team Cherry stupid????

[cinder remnant]

The fumes from the lava

[muted lantern]

Well i mean we only see pharlids called arachnids. Its not farfetched to assume they became spiders when gms ascended them since they didn't have silk before.

[edgy nebula]

yes

[cinder remnant]

They have to put the stink somewhere, so they put it in bilewater

[edgy nebula]

giant drapemites have 8 legs, and nothing says theyre mites from the moors

[muted lantern]

Mite is used pretty loosly i don't use ther term itself as evidence personally. Its used to refer to things like tarmites and the moor mites who are clearly not arachnids and are mostly winged which mites arent. mite is also used as an insult by mergwin and trobbio. It's likely just a derogatory term used for general pest creatures in the hk world

[edgy nebula]

moor mites are very cool i like how tc made their silhouette resemble a mouse using their huge eyes

[muted lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/cheesed-to-meet-you-gif-21409625

[limpid summit]

Neither is this thing bruh 😭💔

[lyric rose]

At least she doesn’t have a mismatched butt

[sinful nimbus]

Why isn't Midwife a no face reference

Its like right there

[stray fog]

I thought she was

[limpid summit]

Yeah she totally is right

[graceful grail]

Is Herra the mother of the skulking devouts and little weavers??

.

Also, when Midwife calls Hornet the Gendered Child, isnt that because she had no choice because Weavers are always Female?? She was Gendered??

[narrow horizon]

no

[narrow horizon]

I believe it's referring to her being the only one of PK's children to have a gender/sex

White Lady also refers to Hornet as the Gendered Child

[narrow horizon]

At least that's the context when White Lady calls her that, we aren't really sure why Midwife does the same but prolly just this as well

[teal sinew]

i wonder if the weavers hoped the child would be male then, since gms not making a male weaver probably had to do with preventing weavers from reproducing among themselves

or are there male weavers we dont know of?

maybe they just look the same

[narrow horizon]

i don't think it's possible for them to be male

[teal sinew]

is it?

i forgot where the lore piece about this was

[narrow horizon]

idk lol i forgot

[graceful grail]

Are the skulking devouts just bugs with a weaver like mask on??

[narrow horizon]

prolly smth like that

[graceful grail]

Seems weird that they arent at least weavers who have degraded or something. But i guess it could be that they are just normal bugs

[narrow horizon]

they're just spider-like bugs that are a part of the kingdom of Deepnest

[graceful grail]

Six eyes usually means weaver

[limpid summit]

The stalking devouts are likely spiders that shape their foreclaws to mimic Weaver masks

[narrow horizon]

yeah

mb late reply

[graceful grail]

Or their forearms are melded with their mask

.

Why do Weaver bodys Vary so much??

[stray fog]

Widow was mutilated

Otherwise all Weavers look very similar

But the first sinner has an open skull for some reason

[bleak maple]

I love so much that even Weavers in their situation understood that Void not gonna help em out

[dire lynx]

these are almost identical

[midnight delta]

I have a theory that unlike others think the drapmite the little guys who live in the cloth in the citadel was herrah but she’s clearly not obviously not a drapmite but what if widow is a drapmite look at a picture of a drapmite and look at widow?

[muted lantern]

Drapemites have horns tho

That's why people think herrahs one. Widow looks like a regular weaver with her big head ripped off

[dire lynx]

widow looks like that because she wears a rag over her mutilated face. she used to have an orb head like every other weaver

[autumn umbra]

why does Herrah not have an orb head

[jagged sun]

I almost want to see Widow without the rag in a dlc or something

[jagged sun]

She's not a first generation weaver, so her ancestors' breeding with common spider-like bugs made her look like that

[autumn umbra]

source..?

[jagged sun]

Me

[robust wagon]

https://tenor.com/view/metal-gear-rising-metal-gear-rising-revengeance-senator-armstrong-revengeance-i-made-it-the-fuck-up-gif-25029602

[jagged sun]

Exactly

But honestly it just makes sense

It's said that they bred with common bugs to stay alive

[robust wagon]

She's too cool for that

Where?

[jagged sun]

I cannot for the life of me remember

[robust wagon]

Oh 😭

[jagged sun]

OH WAIT I KNOW

[autumn umbra]

fair lol

[jagged sun]

Weavers can only be female so they must have!

[robust wagon]

What if they just don't breed ._.

[autumn umbra]

Weavers are immortal

[jagged sun]

What do you think they do, multiply?

[robust wagon]

I meant that they just don't have offspring

[jagged sun]

They can still die, as seen by the Weavesong charm room

[jagged sun]

They can, as proved by hornet

[autumn umbra]

yes they can die. just not of old age

[jagged sun]

Plus they were trying to have a child with a pale being to rivalize GMS

[robust wagon]

She's a special case, and there isn't any evidence that Herrah isn't a full weaver (also Hornet is often called a half spawn)

[autumn umbra]

Weavers definitely can have offspring with other species

[jagged sun]

Gtg, my bus is almost at the stop

[robust wagon]

The weaver cages prove that, yes

Cya

[autumn umbra]

yup was abt to mention that haha

[robust wagon]

Lol

[crimson patio]

Seeing as birth is so painful that it’s near impossible for Weavers to have children

I have to assume that the other Weavers whose descendants were in cages reproduced through alternative means

Perhaps getting together with a higher being/pale being/whatever the requirement for Herrah to conceive Hornet is one way

But who knows maybe the others found ways to do IVF lol

[maiden meteor]

So, have anyone noticed that mount Fay doesn’t resemble mountain at all?

it’s like, a giant vertical shaft

[robust wagon]

Video game

[robust wagon]

Also not really? There's also the other side of the mountain

[tardy compass]

What do the tree beings (greyroot, white lady) have to do with a game about bugs 💔💔💔

[vestal juniper]

ive been super invested in hk/sk lore lately, and i really like the idea that it's less "hallownest makes you hold onto your memories" and more "lack of civilization / the wastelands make you forget them"
alternatively its just bugs that pk specifically gave sentience . that lose memories upon leaving the kingdom but idk

[vestal juniper]

root beings are interesting because doesnt hornet explicitly say theyre not a bug?

could be misremembering idk

[vestal juniper]

ohh hey this is interesting. some ppl talking about how it is That desert specifically and not the wastelands as a whole ok icic

esp because higher beings are effected by it too. yahh. like the knight. the knight is Also effected by the memory loss .. so def has something to do w Not pale king

ig this is more #hk-lore lmfao srry

[craggy smelt]

they live in the same world

[craggy smelt]

yeah, Hornet says she is a bug, but Greyroot is something 'quite different.'

[vestal juniper]

root creatures are definitely super weird and still kinda unexplained

but we know there are some creatures in hk that are only part bug, and im tempted to think root creatures fall under that umbrella. i mean, the greenpath critters are described to be "not quite plant, not quite bug"

im tempted to think, anything that's partially not bug is somehow divinely inspired (be it a pale being or higher being in general). like unn for the "not quite plant, not quite bug"s, pale lady & pale king for the vessels, etc

now to think, how would greyroot and pale lady be connected? how common is the 'root' race? do they always only reproduce with the 'parasite?' no clueee

[dreamy onyx]

I think its the second one

the whole thing about base instict makes me think the average beetles we see in HK only got higher mind from PK, and thus would lose it if they left the kingdom

[whole holly]

has anyone watched this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MOPF7Narro

i found it interesting

snail shamans have Spiral theme to them, did they come from Abyss, as we see Snail Shell looking things in Hallownest Abyss

[autumn umbra]

I don't think they come from the Abyss bc of that one Abyss Shriek comment

I do believe they're made out of Void tho

bc

[whole holly]

true it is weird how they use soul

[autumn umbra]

they literally explode in Void balls and give you a Void ability

[autumn umbra]

everything surrounding them is weird. I'm not sure if SS made it any clearer

[whole holly]

that's because their bodies are black and sluggish similar to void being think black liquid, and Shaman Spells being mixed with Knight's Essence makes Void Spells

[autumn umbra]

in SS we learn that they have a fixation with Void and they do even more Soul things

[viscid ridge]

Theres a ledge next to our bellhome, was there any part in development that the ledge was maybe connected to something?

Just wondering

[autumn umbra]

oh sorry for late reply my internet cut as we talked ^^;)
I still find it too conveniently Void-like. but tbh I don't think TC knew what they were doing with them. so maybe it's as you say

[dreamy onyx]

I think it's just to get in the spa in case you get it before Faydown Cloak

[olive axle]

Is Skynx the same species as Nosk?

[pliant meadow]

Yeah almost 100%, it only appears after getting the spa

[low oracle]

There is no certain evidence, but it is a common theory.

[lyric rose]

for all we know maybe he is nosk

the knight mask doesn’t go away like others bits of corpses (aside from the ones you can dream nail)

And Nosk seems able to compress himself into the disguise

[viscid ridge]

Not inside the bellhome, i mean the ledge to the left outside the bellhome, did that lead somewhere previously in development

[lyric rose]

I just want another nosk fight tbh

[viscid ridge]

This ledge, it currently doesn't go anywhere, but did it once in the development process?

[low oracle]

Not everything needs to have a purpose though. Team Cherry included many corners and edges throughout the world of SS, so to make the environment more realistic.
Even if in this particular case it was something else.

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but its still strange though, they could've added a straight wall, but this ledge made me think there was supposed to be something there. When i first played i though this ledge would lead to the bath, then i saw its actually inside the bellhome

[halcyon rose]

Crazy to think there is/was more weaver descendents just around.
-A quarter part weaver "staked to service" in the city of steel.
-An 8th part weaver mortally wounded in the "Blackbarrens".
-A "frail and old" 8th part weaver found in the sandseawaste

[viscid ridge]

I looked at some early maps, it seems there was probably a room connected to the ledge, what would be inside i have no idea

There's currently not any zoom ins of the newer bellheart, so i cant be certain, but it look like it connects

[gentle aspen]

“Our power’s all of soul.”

[autumn umbra]

yea

[edgy nebula]

it sucks because like

theres ltierally nothing relating themto void like at all

idk why tc even went that direction

[viscid ridge]

We do have key art of the chapel maid that shows a more detailed look at their skin, looks very sluggish

[viscid ridge]

To be fair there is the 2 void spells we get from them, but i personally think the shamans are fixated with all types of magic/power, not just void specifically.

[edgy nebula]

those are explicitly stated to be because tk fused the soul spells with their essence

[viscid ridge]

I think they just focus on void so much (apparently) because its seemingly the most powerfull of the powers they study

[autumn umbra]

but black balls:(

sigh I'll have to let go of that theory

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but i dont think its a coincidence we got the necessary power to form those spells from the shamans so idk

[autumn umbra]

why would a void being have so much personality anyway

[halcyon rose]

And we will likely never hear about any of the other descendants ever again outside of the cradle.

[viscid ridge]

Here's the art i was referring to btw, i couldn't find it 😅

[viscid ridge]

Void beings can have personality, like collecter and the hollow knight to a degree, but i think its probably more the soul parts of their being that causes that. Pure void like the tendrils only seem to violently lash out

[autumn umbra]

oh true!

[viscid ridge]

Hopefully well meet the last weaver from hallownest in the future

[autumn umbra]

yeah!! i always say that. Soul gives Void will

[halcyon rose]

Doubt it personally

[autumn umbra]

why?

[halcyon rose]

I was talking about the weaver thing, not the void thing

[edgy nebula]

ngl this was obvious as shit how didnt we think she was a shaman immediately

[viscid ridge]

Void has a will, but it isn't focused.

[glacial warren]

I mean the Void does seem to house something of a will of its own, though it’s been fragmented, split. Only slivers and pieces of the original conscious are left.

[edgy nebula]

black body, obscured head, snail skin, staff with a swirl on it

[viscid ridge]

I picked up they were shamans the instant that Hornet said that the caretaker is pretending to be a normal bug 🤣

[halcyon rose]

Although I do still hope we do eventually meet a weaver descendant eventually

[edgy nebula]

no like, as soon as her rendered art was released

[glacial warren]

The Shade Statue down in the Abyss in Hollow Knight implies that Void was unified at some point in the past. The Void Monoliths scattered about also hint at this, that the Void likely held great power back when it had been whole in the age when it had active worshippers.

[viscid ridge]

I doubt we'll meet one cause they all seem to weak to he able to stay in pharloom without being captured, but i do hope so

[halcyon rose]

when the void unifies it becomes goozma from terraria: calamity "lore"

[viscid ridge]

Yeah i know it should have been obvious 🤣

[glacial warren]

Basically when Void was unified it became what the Radiance recognized in The Knight as ‘ANCIENT ENEMY’.

[frigid belfry]

some kind of light vs dark parallel and conflict we will never hear about till hk52

[glacial warren]

I mean we do in theory see what would happen if it ever came to blows between the two in the Embrace The Void ending. That is to say, Void Given Focus hands Radiance her ass full size.

[viscid ridge]

Honestly i think void is the ancient enemy of all pale beings, or gods in general

[finite wind]

Hey, I just got a coral commandment from the shopkeeper on enclave and I wanna know what it means

It's STH about the directors

It talks about a final form of sphere and soul

[viscid ridge]

Can you copy the text?

[finite wind]

It's in Spanish, but I'll check the wiki

Last edict of the Conductors.

"And lo, is eternity sustained. By Architect's claw, we welcome that final form, of dial and rotor, and soul gladly given.

The perfect, unfaltering voice."

[viscid ridge]

Its refering to the cogwork core, all the robots in the core is powered by a silkfly, which seems to be a form of a bugs soul.

[finite wind]

But what do the directors have to do with that?

[viscid ridge]

And the robots seemingly was made to sustain the song that keeps the grand mother trapped, and to perform upkeep and expansion of the core and its cylinders

[finite wind]

Wait a song is keeping her trapped? Can't she control people to free herself? Which song?

[viscid ridge]

In the specific tablet does the directors refer to the architects or the conductors?

[finite wind]

Oh I thought directors and conductors were sinonims

[viscid ridge]

The whole citadel was built to have bugs continuously sing to keep her trapped. Its only after the bugs in the citidel died that she was able to wake up and control the entirety of pharloom

[viscid ridge]

Ok so the conductors are just the rulers of the citidel, so they were in charge of everything that would be built and laws and stuff like that. So they probably ordered the building of the core, but the lore is still a bit vauge on the details

[finite wind]

Who are the conductors

Like in the game

Are they the 3 statues

[viscid ridge]

The conductors are the biggest of the 3, like the one in the high halls

[viscid ridge]

The conductors is the big one in thetop left, the architects are bottom left, and the vaultkeepers are on the right

Also here is Conductor Ballador, seemingly the last living conductor in the citidel

Conductor Mizello, who seemingly is the body we found in the whiteward

And Pharlooms folly is written by a unseen Conductor Romino

[finite wind]

How do you know his name?

And why were they in charge of everything? Don't they just make music?

[viscid ridge]

It comes from the song cylinder: The last surgery of Conductor Mezilo

[finite wind]

And if this is true, how does singing keep her trapped? And how did the citadel bugs die? And if she has control now, why doesn't she free herself using minions?

[viscid ridge]

They were left in charge of the citidel after the weavers left, and i think their name implies they were in charge of conducting the choir and the citidels afairs in general

[finite wind]

Ohh that's him, makes sense

[finite wind]

The weavers were in charge? I thought they were prisoners and used for silk

[steep jetty]

Ooo Conductor mentions

[viscid ridge]

The song is some form of holy magic it seems, but the lore we get on it is scarce. Im not sure how the bugs of the citidel died, there is some implied stuff that the citidel was run into the ground by the conductors, but the real reason is not known as of yet. And she is already free by the time Hornet gets into pharloom, and she used her power to control the bugs to go out and capture weavers and half weavers.

[viscid ridge]

No, they were the ones who built the citidel so they could trap the grand mother, and fleed after they did so. Only after that did grand mother silk start capturing weavers to bind their silk it seems

[frosty gate]

Heyo, what's the topic?

[finite wind]

And how did GMS gain power to control people?

[edgy nebula]

we see his mantle

[finite wind]

And why did they flee again?

Or capture GMS, her creator

[viscid ridge]

Its said by the caretaker, that silk got stuck in the organs of bugs, so thats how grand mother silk was able to control them

[finite wind]

And why does she want more silk

[finite wind]

Oh true

They got silk in them so they could be immortal or STH right

[viscid ridge]

Seemingly because grandmother silk used them for something they didn't want to do, but its not totally clear

[finite wind]

Why is silk powerful? Is it because GMS is a pale being?

[viscid ridge]

Exactly

[viscid ridge]

Its just another form of soul, but seemingly because its in silk form, it can be used to create a wide variety of spells and such. Like we mostly see seals of binding, but we also see silk be used to create light, create heat barriers and some other stuff i cant remember right now

[finite wind]

So they built the song tower below the GMS place for nothing since they were doomed once they got silk in them

[viscid ridge]

Its very versatile

[viscid ridge]

Kinda, but its implied they didn't know it would happen

[finite wind]

Yeah but what's the origin of silk being tied to soul and being powerful? GMS?

Ahh

[viscid ridge]

Not sure. Hopefully we'll get an explanation for where Grandmother silk came from in the future

[finite wind]

How do we know weavers built the citadel and everything?

And why do they want pilgrims to come?

[viscid ridge]

Theres a runeharp saying so, aswell as mask maker saying they built it

[finite wind]

I don't remember that, but I haven't given him his item from Phill and the other guy

So maybe he'll talk there

[finite wind]

?

[viscid ridge]

Hornet: You speak of the Citadel? Its former function has failed, but I can still sense its purpose, some. It is church and cage both.

Mask Maker: Aye. Devised by your ancestors that monstrosity, and their wicked, clever minds. A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule.

[viscid ridge]

Because they needed people to sing

[finite wind]

Ahh

[finite wind]

Yeah but now everybody is dead

Why does GMS want them

[viscid ridge]

Who?

[finite wind]

The pilgrims

[viscid ridge]

She doesn't want them, shes just using them.

[viscid ridge]

Its the weavers who beckoned the pilgrims to continually pray and sing to the god of pharloom, but grand mother silk is personally more interested in the weavers than the pilgrims

[finite wind]

For what, to gather more pilgrims? Idk, before and even during our stay in our citadel there are multiple dead bugs she could use

Why more

[finite wind]

Pilgrims*

[viscid ridge]

Use for what?

[finite wind]

For bringing in more weavers or kill hornet or do whatever she wants

Like why does she need more pilgrims to come in when there are plenty dead bodies to use

[viscid ridge]

She does use them it seems, we see she captured a ton of other weavers using the pilgrims

[viscid ridge]

Ooh i understand

She isn't controlling the new pilgrims to come up, the pilgrims are doing it on their own

[finite wind]

Ahh

[finite wind]

I mean there are lot of unused ones throughout the citadel

But if she isn't calling them in then it makes sense to have extra

[viscid ridge]

Yeah she uses them if she needs to, we see in a ton of places she reanimates their dead corpses to try and kill hornet

[finite wind]

Ok, thanks for explaining everything lol

[halcyon rose]

somehow never noticed how tall steel seer zi is

[edgy nebula]

everyone in pharloom is huge compared to hornet

[halcyon rose]

i mean yeah but like holy shit

she took all the height from her vassal

[daring pine]

Oh yeah, that is true about Hornet being hunted. The Last Judge probably kills all unhaunted pilgrims, but judging by my most recent interaction with ✨❤️Sherma❤️✨, the minor judges he’s encountered didn’t attack him.

[frosty gate]

Which menas they probably wake up only for Hornet, or people who seem problem

[maiden meteor]

Apparently there’s an unused mechanic where Judges don’t attack Hornet if she didn’t kill anyone iirc

[finite wind]

Yeah to see that I had to deliver him the liquor

I'm seeing it rn

[maiden meteor]

Also, I just realized what’s up with pins in FS arena

they were probably used to kill/suppress her

maybe to pin her silk like with Widow

in same fashion scissors GMS used were probably here to harvest silk from her Cocoon by Citadel bugs

[autumn umbra]

minor judges? you mean the fact that Sherma got in? I mean maybe he just went past them. he's been doing that with many other areas. it's not like the enemies in Marrow wouldn't attack him just bc he survived that area
unless you found specific dialogue that proves this?

[halcyon rose]

believe there is dialogue

"Aren't those solemn judge-bugs nice? They do not speak or sing, but I sense great wisdom behind their gleaming gazes!"

[viscid ridge]

I think those needles are probably just weapons and sewing tools that the weavers used to create their looms and runes out if silk.

[vestal juniper]

yahh
and im thinking it happens to ghost too bc they too are a creation of pk
but then again it is said that the desert bordering hallownest is Specifically weird so that could be it too idk
i think it would be weird for the kings pass inscriptions to warn higher beings about losing themselves when pk wouldnt have a way of making them. do that, presumably

it's mainly the "yo higher beings here's a warning: youre gonna lose your identity if you go out there!" i think that has me stroking my chin. because i doubt pk is that strong

[gentle aspen]

the tablets aren't addressed to higher beings

its propaganda directed towards newcomers to his kingdom

[vestal juniper]

ellnina cant see them, but ghost can

they also start with the words "higher beings, these words are for you alone" lmao

[gentle aspen]

she can

she just doesn't understand the meaning

and the knight isn't even a higher being at the start of the game "lmao"

[vestal juniper]

omg calm down

she cant read the one outside of the abyss, why would she be able to read the ones in kings pass

[stray fog]

Maybe only bugs elevated by pk can read it

[vestal juniper]

also ghost the product of two higher beings procreating. Yes it is a higher being

[stray fog]

And tk too

[vestal juniper]

no basis though

[gentle aspen]

that isn't how that works

[stray fog]

Yes but the tablet is addressing those very bugs, and we know that elina is not one of them

[vestal juniper]

that is how it works in almost every single fiction ever and i would be willing to hear you out if that isnt the case here

[gentle aspen]

and the tablet is directly addressing the bugs who had their minds uplifted

[vestal juniper]

it's like. yeah that Can be the case but i think its a less hasty jump to assume instead he was referring to ya know OTHER higher beings ?

[whole holly]

maybe Hallownest has various writing systems that are not known to Elina, we also had to equip mushroom spore to understand mushroom tablets

[stray fog]

Wait let me re read some messages

[gentle aspen]

first of all, HK isn't "every single fiction ever" its different
higher being is a title, not an inheritable status
we're only a higher being because we get void heart. Prior to that, you are not considered one nor are you realistically strong enough to be one

and it isn't a hasty jump

like, read the actual tablets

[whole holly]

it means Higher Intelligence, that's the consensus

[gentle aspen]

they're clearly not addressed to "higher beings"

the term higher being isn't ever actually used in dialogue to refer to deities as well

only in non diegetic pieces of information or in places not in the game

[vestal juniper]

higher beings as a whole throughout the game consistently refer to god-like figures. i would be incredibly shocked if that suddenly wasnt the case

[gentle aspen]

it isn't, I just outlined how this isn't the case

the term higher being isn't used within the game to refer to godlike figures

[stray fog]

The tablet doesn't make enough sense if it was talking to gods

[whole holly]

not really, only unfathomable being and term gods are used

[stray fog]

Hallownest has like 5 gods total

Why make a tablet for them

[vestal juniper]

its basically telling them how to behave in pk's kingdom
you can be here, but dont misbehave, and watch out for the spooky desert

[stray fog]

He doesn't need to tell gods to watch out for the wasteland

[gentle aspen]

again, the tablets clearly wouldn't be referring to actual higher beings. They aren't granted intelligence by the pale king

[vestal juniper]

the same desert i believe hornet references "born of two voids" when referring to the knight's resilience

[vestal juniper]

referring to a very specific desert, not the wastelands as a whole

[gentle aspen]

they would also clearly be able to tell that hallownest isn't the "last and only kingdom"

[stray fog]

Oh

Which desert

[vestal juniper]

yeah, so would. regular bug travelers who would be approaching hk

[gentle aspen]

the tablets aren't addressed to those travelers

[vestal juniper]

the one the knight appears from, hence the second void hornet i believe was talking abt

[gentle aspen]

they're addressed to people who didn't have mind before

[vestal juniper]

we disagree lol thats fine

[gentle aspen]

she directly mentions the wastes

[stray fog]

Isnt that the wasteland?

[gentle aspen]

she never says anything about a specific desert

[random harbor]

Lore Tablet: Howling Cliffs - "No world beyond"

Higher beings, these words are for you alone.
These blasted plains stretch never-ending. There is no world beyond.
Those foolish enough to traverse this void must pay the toll and relinquish the precious mind this kingdom grants.

@kingoclowns used /lore-tablets area: Howling Cliffs name: "No world beyond"

[gentle aspen]

this is clearly addressed to folks who had minds granted by the PK

[whole holly]

i think it is wastelands as whole because they are devoid of intelligent life, i don't think it is something spooky about it, it is void because it is empty

[gentle aspen]

not deities

there is no world beyond
relinquish the precious mind this kingdom grants

[vestal juniper]

let me find the dialogue im referring to--you very well could be right

(also gotta go to class so ill be back later lol)

[random harbor]

Hornet - General - City of Tears

Again we meet little ghost.
I'm normally quite perceptive. You I underestimated, though I've since guessed the truth.
You've seen beyond this kingdom's bounds. Yours is resilience born of two voids.
It's no surprise then you've managed to reach the heart of this world. In so doing, you shall know the sacrifice that keeps it standing.
If, knowing that truth, you'd still attempt a role in Hallownest's perpetuation, seek the Grave in Ash and the mark it would grant to one like you.

@kingoclowns used /npcs wanderers name: Hornet category: General dialogue: City of Tears

[whole holly]

yeah that wouldn't make sense for Nightmare Heart, and others Gods specifically because infection is contrasted to beacon which is "mind this kingdom grants" effect

[random harbor]

Lore Tablet: King's Pass - Near Door

Higher beings, these words are for you alone.
Beyond this point you enter the land of King and Creator.
Step across this threshold and obey our laws.
Bear witness to the last and only civilisation, the eternal Kingdom.
Hallownest

@kingoclowns used /lore-tablets area: King's Pass name: Near Door

[stray fog]

This wouldn't be the only time that beings who were called "higher" weren't actual gods

[stray fog]

The ac tablet in skong has the ac calling themselves higher

[gentle aspen]

there's also this whole thing so

[stray fog]

Presumably because they are higher up vertically? Idk

[gentle aspen]

read it if you want its not proof of anything

[gentle aspen]

at the literal lowest point of the kingdom and yet they think they high

are they stupid?

[stray fog]

Lol

[edgy nebula]

is there any reason hornet kills people that are just minding their business

[whole holly]

i hope we get lands serene gam

[edgy nebula]

like wate or green prince

[whole holly]

wate?

[stray fog]

We need to talk about these tablets

Did the pale king steal ac tablets to make these?

[edgy nebula]

https://giphy.com/gifs/crumbling-watcher-at-the-edge-3n3nks482KRUAHqpQX

[stray fog]

Because skong ac tablets have the same look

Even the egg looking thing behind them is the same

[whole holly]

she starts playing needolin and gets attacked

[gentle aspen]

no, eggs are just perfect protective form so folks tend to store shit in them

[edgy nebula]

in hindsight i guess i get wate cause he's another parallel to hornet

[stray fog]

But the tablet itself is very similar to an ac tablet

[edgy nebula]

in hindsight squared i dont get why he was added because second sentinel exists

[stray fog]

The ac tablet must have come first

So the pale king copied that shit for some reason

[halcyon rose]

because its cool, in response to the wate comment

[edgy nebula]

he is pretty cool...

[graceful grail]

The hips

[stray fog]

Thats a very minute difference

Some humans are tall and some are short

Its like that

[plain gazelle]

yeah this has interested me for a while, I feel like it's under discussed. the silksong abyss is full of things that are obvious callbacks to hollow knight, that all make sense with what the HK abyss looks like or what we know about the ancient civilization, and then it drops these lore tablets that look identical to pale king's. it feels intentionally significant

[whole holly]

i also want to say that reason why AC wasn't in Pharloom territories(except Abyss) because Pharloom's Abyss was sealed off by rocks and magma

[edgy nebula]

i mean, they are in pharloom

[viscid ridge]

I think they definitely were in pharlooms abyss, but not as much as they were in hallownest

We see lore tablets from them in pharlooms abyss

[whole holly]

you know what i mean, some were asking why soul totems aren't in pharloom and that is likely main reason why

[whole holly]

yeah but i meant why they weren't spread out like they were in hallownest

[acoustic hearth]

Could be that Pharloom is way older when the White Palace or Hallownest it self

[stray fog]

Even the abyss is smaller in pharloom

Maybe hallownest was their main base

Because it had a huge abyss

[whole holly]

that could make sense but not because of Hallownest Abyss Being smaller, i don't think "huge abyss" matters if void is below all things regardless of how huge abyss is in different kingdoms... they had access to infinite void if that's case, it doesn't make sense for them to rely on slightly larger abyss

[stray fog]

Theyd have to make tunnels to get more void

[whole holly]

that's an assumption, they could have traversed by means unbeknownst to us, they proved they can access Hallownest and Pharloom's abyss so there would be no realistic factor stopping them to having infinite access to void, why would they settle for slightly larger abyss

[stray fog]

Yeah the magma explanation is better

[brisk lava]

can we upload images here?

I think I found something you all might wanna see

[limpid summit]

You need to send a certain amount of messages

[brisk lava]

darn

how many?

ok I really need to show you all this

[limpid summit]

Described

Describe it

Or send it to me and I can post it you can explain it

[brisk lava]

can I send the image to one of you and you post it here?

[limpid summit]

Sure

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1469028577931563129/1469028599641407721/Screenshot_2026-02-05_144825.png?ex=69862aff&is=6984d97f&hm=d06d90e3ee1cf8c58847b6aec1abca65912c3d47fad7f3ca9bcdce6b795f2109&

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1469028577931563129/1469028600349986858/Screenshot_2026-02-05_144204.png?ex=69862aff&is=6984d97f&hm=317ba7edd9dc87297f8514dbdc8e43e12a6e2e4bd194b1abe92ead257cd3591d&

[brisk lava]

😨

wth Vespa

I mean... they do have their own unique steel...

could she have had contact with the steel soul crew?

or maybe have had their own sula? For some reason???

Bro do I really have to send 300 msgs to post images, dawg 😮‍💨

she couldn't be a pale being with relations to void aswell, right?

[blissful harbor]

i don’t think steel in this case is related to the steel clan
it’s hivesteel, one word, just a special kind of metal the bees made

[blissful harbor]

vespa says she’s not

[brisk lava]

yeah, only them

[blissful harbor]

she’s just a normal bee

wasp

thing

[craggy smelt]

yeah, they don't look exactly the same
but they are similar enough that I at one point thought 'man, Sula gets absolutely everywhere'

[brisk lava]

I am so fucking scared of the confessors

what is this conspiracy???

are they the reason there are metalic spikes everywhere in hallownest/pharloom???

[limpid summit]

The steel masters probably aren’t the only guys with steel

Not probably

They aren’t

[brisk lava]

Steel as a material is literally only refered to as such with hivesteel

[blissful harbor]

the koi in old coral gorge had steel, it’s not unheard of for bugs to use steel

[brisk lava]

pale ore is smth else

[blissful harbor]

it’s not the fish use it

[brisk lava]

?

[brisk lava]

they give us a stone which generates shell shards, the same ones we get from some kind of petrified bug remains

[blissful harbor]

kai that’s what they are called not koi

[blissful harbor]

steelspine kai
they also use steel

[brisk lava]

are they in the game?

[blissful harbor]

…yes

coral tower

[brisk lava]

oh, I forgot their names

I guess there are also the steel spines

ok, but maybe their control could extend over steel in general? like GMS with silk?

that could be why they call have their "steel" as a title

[halcyon rose]

spooky

[ember river]

The machines of silksong are said to be made from iron

Bugs do know how to make iron

[maiden meteor]

It’s funny that magnetite is used purely for gambling and money stealing

[brisk lava]

yes, but just like there are higher beings above regular bugs, there may be steel above regular metal

[maiden meteor]

I could imagine so many practical implications for it

[brisk lava]

and flimsy platforms

[ember river]

For platforms too

I'm honestly more intrigued for the memory crystal thing

I don't remember how that material was called

[brisk lava]

coldheart

[ember river]

Coldshard?

[maiden meteor]

Imagine if Citadel used maglevs instead of ventrica

[ember river]

Probably would have ended up the same way

[brisk lava]

yeah, that

[maiden meteor]

I mean maglev sounds significantly safer than launching yourself at mach fuck

[brisk lava]

mach

[maiden meteor]

arghh

[ember river]

Ventrica is just pneumatic travel, maglev does require very precise calculations

[halcyon rose]

Its honestly really surprising its only presence in the game is some dice, a necklace thing and some random platforms

[ember river]

Also magnetite doesn't have enough force to power maglev, just saying

[brisk lava]

funny, I just remembered that the growstone describes the shell shards as "cold, steely stone"

[ember river]

Shell shards do seem metallic in nature

[halcyon rose]

Obviously magnetite is gonna play an uber important role in the totally real steel city game /j

[maiden meteor]

I think one thing stopping coldshards practical use is well, its coldness

[maiden meteor]

City of Steel will put Hallownest’s trams to shame with superspeed trains

[ember river]

The ending is just hornet discovering neodimium and crushing the city of steel into itself

[brisk lava]

well, maybe a cruder form, like an ore to a pure metal bar

/s

[ember river]

Fair

[ember river]

Hornet does use them to make pretty impressive stuff, and they also come from breaking cog hearts

[maiden meteor]

apparently coldvein is enough to make mount Fay deadly freezing

[ember river]

Or pristine cores whatever they're called

[ember river]

I don't think that's because of coldvein

[brisk lava]

beast shard?

[ember river]

I'd assume it just needs to be cold to exist

[ember river]

No, the ones the cogwork clapper and 12th drop

[brisk lava]

oh

[ember river]

Those give you shell shards and are clearly refined

[maiden meteor]

I mean Fay us like the only deadly freezing place we see ever

even surface is ok

[brisk lava]

it's that

[ember river]

I'm just iffy on cold being generated, though I guess coldshard could be draining the energy from the environment to regenerate themselves and that could explain both

There's magic in this world so I'm sure the second law can be conveniently ignored

[brisk lava]

well I think the ice regenerating that fast might be a factor

[ember river]

It's not ice

[brisk lava]

also, the birb is called "heart of frost"

[ember river]

It's a special mineral that has "memory"

[halcyon rose]

bleh 😛
-Game 1: Soul: You explore a dead kingdom. Inhabitated only by tourists and those very few that remained. Try and get rid of the thing causing the remaining few to suffer.

-Game 2: Silk: You explore a dying kingdom. Inhabitated only by those clinging to their faith and the ones that cannot leave. Try and get rid of the thing causing it to slowly wither.

-Game 3: Steel: You explore a living kingdom. Inhabited only by unwilling workers and their Masters. To try and get rid of the thing causing its citizens to suffer.

[brisk lava]

they were probably another old heart

[ember river]

Steel city is quite likely DLC, not a third game

[halcyon rose]

yeah ik

[ember river]

Also any news about the announced DLC?

[halcyon rose]

Ok well i doubt the city ITSELF is a dlc. I honestly just expect an outpost of sorts

[brisk lava]

considering silksong, I am not so sure

[ember river]

Silksong came from the promise of having Hornet as a playable character, not because they promised a "cathedral of song" as a playable area

[brisk lava]

maybe a less involved one than the ones we collect, but one holding power for sure

[ember river]

Plus it's not like they have even announced anything about the city of steel, it's just speculation based on Sharpe not existing

[ember river]

Who?

And which heart? There's no evidence of any other kingdom even existing

[sinful nimbus]

City of Steel would fit the alliteration Sea of Sorrow and Silksong both have so it has to come true

[brisk lava]

ya'know the main quest of act 3

[halcyon rose]

nobody said that it was anything more than speculation

[ember river]

I mean who was after the cold heart

Or whatever you were talking about

[brisk lava]

mister mushroom and the weavers

they built a whole workshop there

and a tuning fork

[halcyon rose]

to talk with the bird

[ember river]

The weavers went to see fayforn as a sort of test if I recall

[halcyon rose]

ye

[ember river]

There's no kingdom there, there's no heart

[brisk lava]

"Fell heart of frost, who soars on high"

[ember river]

Also why would Mr Mushroom go around looking for powerful items, taht's not in character

[halcyon rose]

"Sister, spider, if seeking commune with the creature atop this mount, take the climb above as test, a challenge beyond even our setting. Upon that summit gained, and creature hailed, know it shall choose what gift to grant, with death as likely as insight."

[brisk lava]

not items, he's just observing what remains before the next age commences

[ember river]

I love it when people see a common word and link it to the most contrived theories ever made

[halcyon rose]

Can you loose the attitude?

[ember river]

Also, where's that line from

[brisk lava]

the shamans never told that the old hearts of pharloom they knew were all of them, so maybe

[brisk lava]

passing of the age wish

[ember river]

Every single other heart has pretty blatant ruins laying around

[sinful nimbus]

Heart of frost, as in like, she's got a heart of cold (ruthless temperament) while also serving as a hint at Mount Fay being icy

[brisk lava]

not saying it's guaranteed, but it's not out of question

why fell heart tho?

that implies some significance in the past

[ember river]

Fell means nasty

Not that it's a fallen thing

[sinful nimbus]

Fell is an adjective for terrible yeah

[ember river]

Like Fell Beasts from LotR

[sinful nimbus]

Fayforn is probably pretty strong but if she was a heart there would probably be anything pointing to that in the old hearts quest

[ember river]

You can even get Verdania's heart that the shamans didn't know about, and they are surprised

So you'd expect something similar if there was a heart in Mt Fay

[brisk lava]

could also mean the archaic "an animal's hide or skin with its hair."

[brisk lava]

well we didn't fight the Fay, maybe in the future

[halcyon rose]

find it funny how this random ass bird-thing just appears, gives "insight" to random people and does jack shit else

[ember river]

Huh?

[brisk lava]

old meaning of fell

[ember river]

That's a noun, in that sentence it's clearly an adjective

[brisk lava]

yeah, I was gonna address that actually

it isn't that, but it would make sense, considering it has a down(bird fluff) it can give us

[brisk lava]

considering the celtic folklore inspirations like sylph and fay, not too weird

just needs context

but yeah, I'll hold a pin to the Fay being an old heart of pharloom. It's something to explore in future expansions at least

now we have higher being connected to soul, void, essence, silk and steel confirmed. With pending confirmation on lifeblood and coldshard

[autumn umbra]

what's coldshard?

[ember river]

The memory crystal things from the coldvein

[autumn umbra]

oh

why would that have a higher being

[ember river]

Wait what the hell when was there a steel and coldshard HB even hinted at

Also silk is just soul given another form

[autumn umbra]

yeah and steel too

[ember river]

It's of the same nature

And steel and coldshard are literally just metals

[autumn umbra]

for all we know the Masters could be mortal illuminati

[ember river]

We've seen very strong mortal bugs anyways

[autumn umbra]

exactly

[ember river]

Bardoon, Fayforn, Monomon weren't higher beings and yet were impressive in their own right

[vapid moat]

Actually they did know about it, they just thought they were gone or had left

[autumn umbra]

I find the Steel topic most interesting. I really wonder what's their connection with Void and why they want to observe kingdoms

[ember river]

Apparently the servants can conjure void, which is something very odd, and never seen outside of vessels

[autumn umbra]

like summoning Void is bad and vassals can conjure Void

for some reason

[ember river]

Not for any reason, they only do it for the best and most valid of reasons

Rancid Eggs

[autumn umbra]

also the line about "compression" and how it hints at the fact that being "higher" makes you a better target for the Masters

at least that's how I interpreted it

[ember river]

Yeah that seems to be how it is

[brisk lava]

soul: kingsoul->{WYRM, ROOT}
void: silksong abyss lore tablet("Void, cleanse us.", "We higher who see you seeking,
Our shells yearn for your embrace.")
essence: LIGHT, GRIMM (+ most other HBs), Void lifeblood creature?
silk: GMS (duh)
steel: hivesteel, pale ore? , steel society (possible steel HB?)

[autumn umbra]

eeeegg?

[ember river]

Pale beings in general are tied to soul

[autumn umbra]

-# attempt at Skurry reference

[brisk lava]

sorry if I didn't make it too clear, I meant "connections with those elements to HBs" not a HB who directly commandeers said elements

[ember river]

Most higher beings simply wield extreme power, like Unn and the Pale King can interact with Essence, but the Radiance and the Heart are much more apt

Other than void they seem able to somewhat manipulate the other main forces

[autumn umbra]

I basically see two kinds of higher beings Pale of Soul and Dream ones of Essence. besides the VGF I don't think we've ever met any HB that doesn't fit either category

[ember river]

Pretty much, unless you want to argue Unn, but even then a dream god doesn't really have to be ethereal to be a dream god

[brisk lava]

yes. soul and void seem to make a sort of duality

[ember river]

Why do people sideline Essence?

[autumn umbra]

yes I see Unn as a dream higher being. she dreamt Greenpath into existence so that's where her powers lie

[brisk lava]

VGF?

[ember river]

Void Given Focus

[autumn umbra]

Void Given Focus

[brisk lava]

ah

prefer shade lord, or Bill

[autumn umbra]

I just realized that could perfectly stand for Void Given Form so it's not the best acronym ever T^T)

[ember river]

Giving common names to creatures was funny for 5 minutes until Maurice wore out

[ember river]

I use VGFocus

[brisk lava]

henceforth we shall call you "BILL"

[vapid moat]

VGFocus works well

[ember river]

Which sounds like some program or RPG spell but it gets the job done

[hidden gazelle]

Essence is a scam pushed by Big Higher Ones to push their power agenda (what about the abyssal creature? It’s got like blue essence or stuff like that in its room in the abyss)

[ember river]

We don't know anything about the lifeblood creature

[brisk lava]

.

[ember river]

Lifeblood does seem to be connected to a higher being in some way

And we may get some more answers in the upcoming DLC

[brisk lava]

well it's definetively connected to essence at least

[autumn umbra]

that makes sense!

I'll use that

[vapid moat]

Since lifeblood seems to be a parasite maybe it’s just a creature infected by it

[whole holly]

monomon could have been old heart

[brisk lava]

and your explanation as to how it appears in godhome?

[vapid moat]

Forgot about that

[ember river]

No, she was a Dreamer, a completely different NotAMcGuffin from a completely different kingdom

[brisk lava]

happens to the best of us 😄

[viscid ridge]

I wouldn't be surprised if she was

[whole holly]

i have same question

[ember river]

You see she doesn't give you one of three hearts you need to finish the game, she breaks one of the three seals you need to finish the game

[whole holly]

i mean she could have been both though

[ember river]

She wasn't old enough for that

[whole holly]

we don't obtain her heart for gameplay purposes

[ember river]

Like the former kingdoms were ancient, before GMS was even sealed apparently

[viscid ridge]

The entirety of the fog canyon is very weird, hunter calls it unnatural

[brisk lava]

before she even arrived

[autumn umbra]

chat why are we using the term "Old Heart" as if it was a law of the universe like HBs are? I think what happens is that most powerful civilizations are led by a HB. when this doesn't happen and mortals make their own civilization... that's an old heart. but it's not like something a bug can be. at least that's how I see it

[hidden gazelle]

The Abyssal Creature has such weird things connected to it and I am so desperate for answers or something in the new DLC. Especially because the lifeblood area in the abyss has so many things going on. It’s in the abyss of all things, if you fall in the clouds you get transported back to the entrance like, and the blue essence things floating around

[whole holly]

okay she could have been a heart, Moss druid sense new heart forming so not really stretch to say Monomon could have been a heart

[viscid ridge]

My guess is monomon came from a jellyfish like kingdom and just warped a part of greenpath to look more like her old hom

[ember river]

I'd assume Monomon herself made most of it or something

Or heavily changed it

[brisk lava]

and the only living being who seems like the uomas are extinct (yoma)

[viscid ridge]

Are those the jellies from the corak tower?

[brisk lava]

yup

[ember river]

I'd reckon the Mantis have a bigger shot at ending up as a heart than Monomon

[brisk lava]

yomama

[autumn umbra]

pwease at least one opinion on my take

[whole holly]

mantis somewhat were rulers butt they aren't really important to environment around them

[ember river]

I somewhat agree with it but we really have no idea of what constitutes one

[ember river]

Verdania most definetely wasn't important

[viscid ridge]

Hornet says that jellies are the most basic form of life, so i assume the can be found almost anywhere if the conditions are right

[vapid moat]

Since higher beings like the radiance grow more powerful through belief (or something like that) maybe they gain power through their people’s belief and support of them?

[whole holly]

wdym?

[brisk lava]

well I don't think most mortal bugs could have their heart still beating out of their body but... yeah

[hidden gazelle]

It was different though in some way, since something about Verdania didn’t allow them to replicate it in the Memorium

[autumn umbra]

yeah the old heart topic is weird

[vapid moat]

I was referring to old hearts

[ember river]

My personal theory is that for a heart to form it needs to be an already strong bug (not a higher being) ruling over a civilization of sentient bugs for several generations, and the heart is inherited by the next.
It's an esoteric representation of accumulated strength

Monomon didn't really make a civilization nor was she around for long

[brisk lava]

probably the fact most fauna is terrible to domesticate, aside from the stags(possibly)

[whole holly]

strong in what way? Nyleth is a old heart, though?

[ember river]

They were quite isolationists

[brisk lava]

pollen heart, yes

[whole holly]

Moss Druid suggests heart can form within environment

[viscid ridge]

I think old hearts are just a source of a environments power and life and stuff like that. But its very vauge. I wouldn't put nyleth in the same boat as karmelita, khann and the princes. Its a very strange concept i truly hope tc explains it, cause it doesn't really fit in with the rest of HKs magic system

[terse arrow]

Would a wyrm have an old heart

[vapid moat]

Wait do you think the hive queen could be considered an old heart (if she was alive)

[hidden gazelle]

It created that wood area didn’t it basically or have like large control over? I’m very out of loop for lore so I do apologize for any dumb things I say haha

[brisk lava]

and yet they may have felled a stag with pale power

[ember river]

Nyleth was the seed of the entirety of shellwood

[ember river]

I refuse to believe that the palestag was pale in anything other than colour

[whole holly]

okay so was Monomon for Fog Canyon

[autumn umbra]

an old heart we see is a statue of the thing and the other is dead so she doesn't need to be alive. doesn't answer your question just wanted to point that out-

[ember river]

Again, fog canyon lasted for far less than shellwood

[autumn umbra]

the Hive is a very powerful society so prolly tho

[ember river]

Now that you mention it, Vespa fits much more as a heart than monomon

[viscid ridge]

I personally believe that the stag was the source of verdanias wildlife and plantlife, kinda like unn, and the green people just killed it and took over

[glacial warren]

Fun fact, Monomon was not responsible for Fog Canyon itself, but rather the unique lifeforms that began populating it: The Uoma, Ooma, and the colossus Uumuu.

[whole holly]

that doesn't disqualify them? given how hearts form plus there is unique plantlife aside from Jelly-forms

[viscid ridge]

Even though there is not all that much information

[vapid moat]

If you mean the coral tower boss they seem to be connected to the coral itself and may not have been dead beforehand just dormant

[ember river]

We don't know how hearts form

Is the thing

[whole holly]

how do we know that? Monomon seems to be same species as them too, or similar

[brisk lava]

If TC wanted to make a distinction between pale beings and higher beings, that's a decent way to do it. That also allows them to cover their tracks by putting it in a memory so it's less of a confirmation and more of a possibility

[ember river]

They... didn't really want to make a distinction

[whole holly]

we do, from Moss Druid's dialogue, there is no reason to assume monomon can't be a heart of fog canyon

[ember river]

In fact higher being is used interchangeably with pale being, with the latter being much more common

[glacial warren]

Well yeah. The Canyon itself seems to just be a natural formation. The Pale King set up Monomon here so she could harness the lake of acid for her Archive/Laboratory. The jellyfish creatures are her experiments she began creating.

[brisk lava]

send me the Q&A link then

[viscid ridge]

Maybe it has something to do with wishes? The chapel maid says pharloom is a land of wishes, while talking about the hearts, and we can see that the moss druid is tryinh to create a heart for moss grotto through a wish.

[ember river]

You can think that, but I think that I'm going to stop arguing over speculation

[glacial warren]

They then got out and populated the Canyon.

[vapid moat]

The snail shamans say something about how they thought the power from verdania was gone, I wonder if they meant because the pale stag was hunted (or may just be a reference to its destruction and the green princes disappearance from it)

[ember river]

What Q&A link

[brisk lava]

the one where they make it clear that all pale beings are higher beings

[glacial warren]

Monomon is less a ‘Heart’ of the Canyon and moreso she artificially changed the landscape and inhabited it with new, artificial lifeforms of her own creation.

[ember river]

Honestly if the clover dancers killed the palestag, and it was actually the reason verdania could even survive it would be the funniest storyline in the entire of silksong

[whole holly]

so my point is that it could be, from what we know it is entirely plausible, Moss Druid's dialogue proves it

[ember river]

Yeah, what I'm arguing is that the palestag is not a HB at all

[whole holly]

unique environment does play part in creation of heart

[ember river]

Nor a pale being for that reason

[whole holly]

i believe that as well

[brisk lava]

and Unn made greenery from her mind, but I get it. It looks more like technology than magic

[whole holly]

true, i don't think it qualifies as on

[limpid summit]

The palpable effect Monomon has on her environment is through experimentation I wouldn’t begin to call her a Heart

If that can even be extended to HK characters in the same way

[glacial warren]

I know but she’s not an intrinsic part of the Canyon, is my point. All the additions she made were artificial in nature.

[limpid summit]

Fog canyon persists

[brisk lava]

but it could be a pale being, no?

[glacial warren]

She’s still at the end of the day an outsider to that place.

[vapid moat]

Also where does the nightmare heart fit into the old heart thing. I feel like the naming could be some reference to it

[viscid ridge]

I honestly think it is a pale being, but i imagine they are more diverse than we think they are, comparing the pale king, white lady and grand mother silk

[vapid moat]

Like similar power or sources of power

[limpid summit]

It doesn’t seem to
Different heart metaphors involved
But who knows

[dreamy shell]

i don't think so

[glacial warren]

Exactly. Unn didn’t make an artificial change to Greenpath, but rather Greenpath is an extension of her will, her own territory claimed by her influence as a Goddess.

[brisk lava]

any evidence?

[limpid summit]

Some people think red memory is formed with the Nightmare Realm as a medium rather than the Dream Realm

[vapid moat]

That’s the most likely answer

[brisk lava]

honestly curious

[viscid ridge]

Either that or the palestag is just a clover stag with a mutation

[ember river]

The thing about the Old Hearts, or at least the ones we find, is that they were quite beloved rulers for several generations. They had a certain mythos around them, but the Fog Canyon inhabitants seem more like organic machines than proper citizens.
Maybe they were and she had the potential, but I'm a bit skeptical about that.

Either way, I still sustain that the Mantis Lords or Vespa would be more likely than Monomon

[vapid moat]

Oh interesting any reason for that theory

[ember river]

No

[whole holly]

i am not sure how that is mutually exclusive because i don't think artificial lifeforms matter to argue against it, in fact Monomon could have influence on environment to shape hearts creation

[brisk lava]

beacuse... it's red? and are memories in the dream realm either?

[glacial warren]

The Palestag is moreso revered as a local myth rather than a Deity. Plus it would have been significantly harder to kill had it been a full God.

[dreamy shell]

Pale beings have an urge to rule over people.where do we see any of that in the palestag?

[brisk lava]

I understand your reticence, but please give me definitive proof that all pale beings are higher beings and I'll shelve that idea

[ember river]

Red Memory doesn't use the nightmare realm, it's a weaver technique and there's no essence at all

[dreamy shell]

Also it dosen't even seem like its a higher being

[ember river]

The terms are used interchangeably throughout the entire game

[viscid ridge]

To be fair radiance almost died cause she wasn't remembered, and pale king died in a chair 🤣 jk

[ember river]

In fact, higher being is almost NEVER mentioned, all those instances Hornet talks about pale beings

[brisk lava]

so is Unn a HB?

[limpid summit]

Well red memory is still the Dream Realm

[ember river]

Unn is most definetely a higher being, yes

[dreamy shell]

Name 1 pale being in both games that isn't a higher being.OH... there isn't any

[limpid summit]

We don’t see any essence because we don’t have an essence medium for accessing it

[glacial warren]

The difference is Khan, Nyleth and Karmelita are intrinsic parts of their domains: The Sands of Karak, the Shellwood, and the Skarr Tribe, respectively. Their domains are part of who they are and they are in some way an extension of them.

[limpid summit]

But there’s no reason why it should be some other thing

Those are the established rules of the world

[glacial warren]

They’re natural products of their lands, whereas Monomon is an outsider to the Canyon.

[edgy nebula]

hornet

[whole holly]

Nyleth is in no way a ruler and Heat formation isn't negatively impacted by sapience of living beings in it's environment that we know of, Shellwood is populated by pollenica and plant-life, also Plant life and Ecosystem is important to hearts, i personally doubt mantis lords were important part of ecosystem of hive(maybe hive was... but that's speculative) Monomon, Isma and possibly Vespa have potential to be Hearts of their Ecosystem

[limpid summit]

Wdym Nyleth is a ruler

[vapid moat]

Also I think Mr mushrooms dialogue calling the sights of pharloom “singular” is some sort of reference to the areas isolation from each other and the power behind each

[limpid summit]

The weavers made a treaty with her and everything

[ember river]

Well, Nyleth was revered and had Seth as an undying watcher

[glacial warren]

True Nyleth was actually worshipped, don’t forget.

[dreamy shell]

hornet is not considered a higher being,she is a demi-god

[limpid summit]

By SS definitions Isma may have been a heart and Vespa may have too Monomon I don’t think so

[ember river]

Also Isma was just a knight, she was merged after his death for some reason

[edgy nebula]

yeah, she's pale but not a hb

[limpid summit]

Their environments persist even after death you could say that this is just TC not figuring out the rules but like eh

[viscid ridge]

Thats exactly his point

[whole holly]

my point is that Monomon and her jelly-forms if artifical wouldn't negative affect hearts creation, at least i have no reason why that would be case, and Skarr Tribe don't really have connection to Flora but are part of Ecosystem, similar logic would apply to Fog Canyon Wildlife

[limpid summit]

I don’t think they were meant to be so

[brisk lava]

I'm not claiming there is one, just postulating there could be one

[whole holly]

still not a ruler

[ember river]

We don't know if she was or wasn't, she's already dead

[glacial warren]

Again the difference is the three Rulers are natural, intended inhabitants of their lands. Monomon is an outsider to the Canyon.

[ember river]

She was worshipped so she most definetely held power and influence

[limpid summit]

Why would Monomon be a heart

[whole holly]

she was never stated to be ruler, i don't think being ruler is necessary for heart at all

[edgy nebula]

is seth yet another hornet parellel

[ember river]

Why would Isma be a heart

[dreamy shell]

wouldn't that make her not completely pale?like she has the desire but its weaker

[limpid summit]

Seth parallels everyone

[brisk lava]

there are no rules stating that necesserily all pale beings are higher beings

[limpid summit]

Ogrim Quirrel Hornet

[ember river]

She's not a pale being until she ascends into one

[vapid moat]

Feels closer to quirrel

[edgy nebula]

how many hornet parallels did they stuff into silksong

[ember river]

Just play the games holy shit

[glacial warren]

Given all the white flowers and vines, Nyleth seems to be the core and origin point of the totality of Shellwood itself. She’s less so a leader of the domain and moreso she’s its Heart in a more literal sense. She is the Shellwood.

[edgy nebula]

watcher at the edge, second sentinel, seth, any others

[limpid summit]

Well Isma is probably same species as Nyleth and she’s described as the source of acid

[ember river]

It's not explicitly stated, true, it's only used interchangeably at EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE

[limpid summit]

Over a long period of time she could become a heart

[whole holly]

i don't think that matters i have conveyed as plant-life in fog canyon look similar to jelly-forms in canyon

[limpid summit]

Lace

[ember river]

Yeah that's my view

[limpid summit]

Phantom I guess

[brisk lava]

I did, and am trying to prove myself wrong on that point

[whole holly]

she has her species and unique environment

[edgy nebula]

is she? i feel like shes always been more of a tk/thk parallel

[brisk lava]

I also think it's very unlikely for there to be a PB which is not a HB

[limpid summit]

Her unique environment is the result of her doing crazy experiments and letting them proliferate not the rhythm of her latent power

[whole holly]

Nyleth despite being revered, wasn't a ruler

[limpid summit]

She isn’t a heart

[ember river]

Why can Hornet be the only durable, nimble fighter in the universe? We had quirrel in the first game

[dreamy shell]

imo,pale beings need power to achieve their goal.that would make them need to be a higher being

[ember river]

Also why would Watcher be a Hornet parallel?

[vapid moat]

No reason a character can’t parallel multiple other ones

[brisk lava]

but I can't find evidence that categorically disproves that from being possible

[glacial warren]

Still the bubbles and stuff likely only began after Monomon started her experiments. Most of the bushes and shrubbery look similar to Greenpath. Every alteration that makes the Canyon unique is an artificial change brought due to Monomon’s inserted presence.

[edgy nebula]

as in parallels to her actions in the first game, with watching over a dead kingdom

[whole holly]

i don't think that would negatively affect her being a potential heart, plant-life is unique as well

[limpid summit]

Beating, beating... The world's rhythms... In branches, in fields!

This isn’t what fog canyon does

It’s just Monomon throwing stuff around

[glacial warren]

In fact this might be why the Hunter is so freaked out by the Canyon: Almost everything there is artificial in nature and not an intended part of the ecosystem.

[ember river]

Why are we still debating about whether or not Monomon could become a heart, she's dead and she can 100% not become one now

[whole holly]

we don't know that Bubbles weren't part of ecosystem

[whole holly]

so are old hearts in silksong though

[limpid summit]

None of the hearts are dead

[ember river]

All of them are alive except Nyleth, and even Nyleth is debatable

[limpid summit]

Nyleth is asleep

[edgy nebula]

not until we kill them

[limpid summit]

“Other other sleeping deep”

[limpid summit]

Act 3 doesnt exist

[ember river]

Then not even Nyleth

[glacial warren]

Again most of it looks similar to Greenpath. It’s likely the Canyon used to be another extension of the ol’ Greenmother’s turf until Monomon moved in and began her science experiments.

[ember river]

GMS is the final boss and WQ is the canon ending

[whole holly]

i don't think team cherry would know silksong's lore while they were working on hollow knight the first game, so it makes sense for them not to write monomon as heart because that concept doesn't exist in first game

[edgy nebula]

what if sister splinter is recording a youtube short and she cant say anything vulgar or she gets demonetized

[dreamy shell]

@brisk lava welp... guess i'm proven wrong...you win
"Hornet, the daughter of a pale higher being, is a pale being as well"
https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Higher_Beings

[limpid summit]

Yes but then what’s the point of retroactively attempting to apply this category if the guidelines aren’t shown whatsoever

[edgy nebula]

im gonna unalive you little spider

[limpid summit]

She isn’t a heart

[whole holly]

Artificial Lifeforms don't disqualify her

[ember river]

Hornet isn't a pale being, not fully anyways

[ember river]

We don't even know the conditions to become a heart

Or when exactly it happens

[whole holly]

i am just trying to speculate, Moss Druid gives us insight about it

[limpid summit]

Being a Heart means you have an effect on the flora and fauna of the area. Artificial lifeforms like the jellies wouldn’t count

[ember river]

I mean, monomon definetely had an impact

[glacial warren]

But her presence as an outsider does. To be a Heart, you have to be a natural inhabitant of the world’s ecosystem, part of that biome. Monomon’s an outsider to the Canyon.

[vapid moat]

Do we know that to be true though?

[dreamy shell]

bruh...you disagree with the wiki?

[ember river]

Even if it came from tubes and experiments

[whole holly]

so why is everyone using is as some kind of counterargument though, if they don't know the condition

[edgy nebula]

yes

[ember river]

Yes because the game tells us as much

[whole holly]

says who?

[limpid summit]

If that isn’t true then there’s no point in having labels and we could simply call everything a Heart to an extent

[edgy nebula]

or are you referring to the first statement or the 2nd

[dreamy shell]

she literally calls them her kind

[vapid moat]

Fair

[ember river]

I dunno, I stated my case and didn't really keep up with the conversation

[whole holly]

says who?

[vapid moat]

But also evidence

[ember river]

Because she's half pale, and it has a substantial effect on her mind

[glacial warren]

‘Beating Rhythm of the World’. The Hearts are described as essentially being extensions of their lands. Monomon can’t be an extension of the Canyon because she’s not a natural resident.

[limpid summit]

Beat beat beat! In coral, in shell... And why not here?! Beating, beating... The world's rhythms... In branches, in fields!

“The world’s rhythms” that’s what a heart is lol

[ember river]

Now I tell you this, if Hallownest did live eternally and the Canyon stood for a thousand years, would it be part of the land?

[whole holly]

why not? Fog Canyon is separate enough from everything else for it to be connected to Monomon

[ember river]

Monomon probably had the potential to become a heart, if she managed to reach it before her death is, and will always remain unknown

[limpid summit]

Monomon had as much potential to become a heart as Lurien

[glacial warren]

The Green Princes are the Heart of Verdania since they’re native, natural products of Verdania. Just as Karmelita is a natural product of the Far Fields, Nyleth is a product of the Shellwood, or rather, it is a product of her, and Khan is a product of Karak. Monomon is not a product of the Canyon, which disqualifies her.

[ember river]

But to be fair most bugs with enough knowledge and time could achieve that level

[whole holly]

i mean why don't artifical life-forms count, i never think that was said in game

[limpid summit]

There’s nothing that she did that made her unique with regards to what we know about Old Hearts

At all

[vapid moat]

Then what is she?

[dreamy shell]

well she is technically related to GMS sooo...

[ember river]

Not really

[glacial warren]

She’s an outsider, sent here by the Pale King. She’s the reason the Canyon mutated into what we see now.

[limpid summit]

Who knows what Monomon is
Land was likely ceded to her from QG by PK to experiment

[ember river]

The entire reason Frist Sinner was locked up was because she found out they are just an experiment and not actually god children

[glacial warren]

Also likely explains why the Hunter is so fearful of the Canyon: Everything there is not an intended part of its ecosystem, it’s artificial and unnatural.

[whole holly]

Monomon made fog canyon way it is, "Nyleth is a product of the Shellwood, or rather, it is a product of her" you proved vice versa counts as well by your own statement

[edgy nebula]

do we think the statues inside walls of certain areas are citadel or AC

[ember river]

While I agree with this point, I don't think it "disqualifies" her from becoming a heart because we have zero clue of their qualifications

[brisk lava]

?

[ember river]

Nyleth could have just showed up and started growing on what was a barren land

And over time achieved that power

[limpid summit]

Citadel

I don’t think AC actually had a presence in Pharloom proper

[edgy nebula]

fair, what about the pillars you see alot then

[limpid summit]

Which ones

[edgy nebula]

the ones in like, ducts, karak, steps, etc

[whole holly]

okay Nyleth also made shellwood way it is , just like monomon with Fog Canyon, so i don't think nativity matters since Nyleth is Wandering Seed

[glacial warren]

We’ve seen the qualifications. You need to be a natural, interconnected part of the biome you are the ‘Heart’ of. Monomon cannot be the Heart for Fog Canyon because she’s not a natural part of that biome or its ecosystem.

[spark valve]

nor is nyleth that doesn't matter

[spark valve]

citadel

[edgy nebula]

not necessarily the AC, just some AC i suppose

[limpid summit]

Probably citadel as well

[ember river]

She would become a natural part if it lasted for long enough

[whole holly]

she created the ecosystem, i never saw natural being mandated anywhere

[edgy nebula]

fair, i remember it being discussed and decuded that they were some old civilization a bit back

[ember river]

Shellwood wasn't like that for all of time

[limpid summit]

Nyleth isn’t native to Shellwood she’s a wandering seed like Isma but that’s not the point

[glacial warren]

Nyleth is a natural product for the Shellwood, given she is its source and origin. She’s a literal ‘Heart’ in that case, but she’s still an intended part of its ecosystem as its progenitor.

[dreamy shell]

hornet says she is pale and she isn't a higher being,so your point was proven

[ember river]

And karak has already ceased to be as it was

[vapid moat]

I feel like we’re arguing over things we don’t have answers for

[ember river]

Those areas are dead, new ones will arrive

[spark valve]

ok? she's not natural to the region it's the same as monomon