sk-lore

[limpid summit]

White dot is GMS/Pharloom

Hallownest lands serene etc are outward

[crystal marsh]

he's not talking about a literal moon in universe

all of those lines are metacontextual

[whole holly]

what is the metacontext?

in this case

[crystal marsh]

references to other games/IPs

[whole marsh]

Speaking on that, is there a general consensus as to what games/IPs he's referencing? And do we know if his dialogue is metacontextual in SS as well?

[limpid summit]

Some people think the hungry one is Hungry Knight

Especially since it’s the first

[sinful nimbus]

His HK dialogue doesn't really have any known meaning except for his first one probably being Hungry Knight and the last one referencing Hungry Knight and Tomb Cat

Silksong referenced Undertale or something idk

[limpid summit]

...Yes, communication is the heart of it. The grandest boasts and the tiniest murmurings all have their meanings...
...Your point is well made. Even the flowers have their stories to tell. Light can be cast anywhere...
Hornet: I've no desire to interrupt your meditations, Herald, but I am eager to speak with you, if you would listen...
...Take note of it all, render it in line, you'll be glad that you did. You can take the journey home with you...

People say undertale here

But eh

For all we know they could be references to game jam games that Team Cherry liked

You can extrapolate to fit his dialogue to whatever game

[whole marsh]

Hmm I can see that possibly being undertale.

Yeah his words are so vague and random it's hard to really pin anything down

[sinful nimbus]

...The elements do not conspire against you. They have their own desires...
...When one spies a great peak, the natural inclination is to begin climbing...
...The little left-behind... you've decided, then? A companion for the journey...
This is plausibly Celeste

[whole marsh]

These all read like activation lines for sleeper agents lol

[viscid ridge]

I doubt mister mushrooms lines are any reference to other games, like in the first game. I have speculated that all of mister mushrooms lines are refering to the new things they added to silksong. Im quite proud of this analysis so what do you think?

"Mr Mushroom

Ive also been wracking my brain about the new mister mushroom dialogue. To me a large majority of his dialogue seems to correlate to different or new features in Ss that wasn't in Hk.

The 1st dialogue talks about going down, but going up is another thing. Like in silksong we ascend to the top of pharloom, but in Hollow Knight we descend down

The 2nd dialogue talks about long strides and small steps. This i think refers to how Hornet is able to sprint and run fast, while the knight had to take tiny steps to get anywhere

The 3rd dialogue talks about elements. This i think refers to how silksong has a bunch of new elemental environmental hazards (lava, frost, muckmaggots, wind) while in hollow knight we only had acid

The 4th dialogue talks about communication. As apposed to the knight, who had no voice to cry suffering, Hornet can speak

The 5th. This dialogue is very beautiful, but i dont know how to interpret it.

The 6th dialogue talks about the past. I think this is referring to the Red Memory and the Birthplace.And the last dialogue speaks for itself i feel"

[urban valve]

can anybody recommend a yt video that comprehensively explains silksong lore? I guess this might be a tad controversial since parts are open to interpretation, but any suggestions are welcome

[viscid ridge]

Honestly i am a mossbag supremacist, even though his silksong lore video is a little underbaked in my opinion

[ocean solstice]

it depends on your qualities of a good video and your native language

[urban valve]

fair point, English, and probably it's covering most of what the lore geeks think is important?

[ocean solstice]

mossbag's video is great

[tawdry flare]

mossbag's video SUCKS because of one minor thing he got slightly wrong that i forgot about

[ocean solstice]

one minor thing tho

[viscid ridge]

Honestly i think he should have done smaller videos before making massive lore video, like what he did with the hollow knight one. It just feels like he jumped the gun a bit too early. I also personally think the video lacked a lot of his charm that he had in his previous videos.

[silk dirge]

i think he was under a lot of pressure tbh

like everyone was asking "lore video when"

that combined with all the other terrible lore videos out there

he probably wanted to get something good out fast

i remember finding lore videos from like lorebrarians or whatever theyre called that had like so much just wrong information

[lilac night]

🙂

[limpid summit]

I think his video was overall very good

Got a tiny bit of timeline stuff wrong but the wiki still has it like that and it’s easy to misunderstand

[lilac night]

🙂

[limpid summit]

Hello

[lilac night]

hello

[twin dragon]

I'd recommend also fatbrett's analysis videos

even though he consistently gets first sinner's lore wrong

but i can't blame him because the dialogue makes you inclined to believe gms sealed her away

[silk dirge]

yeah fatbretts are also good

theres like 3 or 4 good silksong lore channels

but a lot of really bad ones

aside from the ones i mentioned earlier theres also ai lore channels which is just

no

die

[limpid summit]

Grand Mother Silk was a kind ruler who only wanted the best for her children

Once she went to sleep her daughters the Weavers built the Citadel in reverence of her kindness

Later the Conductors rose to power and ushered in a new era of kindness

This was all cut short by Hornet a cruel, evil renegade Weaver who sought to upend the kindness each ruler had brought forth

[silk dirge]

~~all mentions of slavery have been removed ~~

[tawdry flare]

they didn't even know the concept of slavery. that's how peaceful and awesome it was

[sinful nimbus]

I love Fatbrett who up watching the 30 minute sherma video essay

[tawdry flare]

is that the uhh why sherma is awesome video

[silk dirge]

yes

[spark valve]

Is that the deconstruction guy

[silk dirge]

yeah

[tawdry flare]

thats kinda like making a video on why water isn't wet

[spark valve]

(As far as I can tell not knowing what that means)

[light verge]

theyre really good for surface level stuff but the deeper lore (especially his last video) is flawed for sure

that being said i really enjoyed those videos, koddos to him

[dreamy onyx]

i hope we get a silksong character thats a historian just to smooth out the timeline a little

like any sort of vague idea of what happened when cuz right now its just so messy

[tawdry flare]

isn’t that the alien from the simpsons

[pallid blade]

I thought she was just a pure antagonist

Cuz of the silk the spread everywhere, controlling almost all the bugs in Pharloom

[lime osprey]

Yeah team cherry seems to want to keep the “who exactly made the citadel so cruel” question secret forever

[dreamy onyx]

I think they both contributed tbh

cycle of abuse

[lime osprey]

Both? There were three different rulers

[dreamy onyx]

i meant weavers and conductors

and also GMS

[lime osprey]

Imo i believe the weavers to be mostly to blame

[dreamy onyx]

they are the root cause but the conductors certainly share their blame

I think they were the ones to really exploit it and make it that much more miserable

[sinful nimbus]

Its not a secret that everyone involved was a bit of a douche

Weavers are victims of Grand Mother Silk, but Weavers themselves created the whole false religion and started the pilgrimage to make pilgrims do all the work and stuff, and Conductors are victims of the Weavers, but Conductors themselves are to blame for stuff like the Whiteward experiments and stuff like Cogwork Core

[solid vine]

Chat, were Lace and Phantom the results of peer reviewed research?

[spark valve]

No

[solid vine]

Did GMS at least record the sources for the silk used to make them?

[muted lantern]

the source was gms

[solid vine]

Oh yeah :D

Can I just say the Cradle is just, one HUGE OSHA VIOLATION!!!!

[muted lantern]

considering the underworks i dont think the citadel has osha lol

[spark valve]

Relative to the rest of the citadel the cradle is pretty safe

[velvet bolt]

hey, lore. lemme shoot yall a question

do we think any of Hornet’s capabilities in HK/SS are “light” adjacent? like in terms of any sort of elemental or magical aspect they might have

[muted lantern]

Shes more tied to like soul magic

but pale beings are tied to light generally

at least gms and pk are described as such

i think

pale beings are mostly tied to soul though

[sinful nimbus]

Not a huge liberty to interpret soul as light magic tbf

You could also maybe do something with the Everbloom

Doesn't get any more light magic than that

[foggy fractal]

Hello Starpengu

[sinful nimbus]

Hi Andy

[muted lantern]

Hornet might make a really good sun soul monk in dnd

[velvet bolt]

Yeah, i was kind of wondering where the line between “pale” and “light” lies tbh

the everbloom is interesting to consider, although it was a fragile, one-time-use thing, wasn’t it?

That was the impression I got, anyway

Like Hornet had to go hunt down the hearts just for the power to manifest it the one time

Unless you think she can just whip it out at any point now?

[muted lantern]

It might have only been fragile because the knight held it and we know the void will eat away at the flower. but also hornets dialogue i think implies the flower is fragile but the one she formed from the memory is stronger. theres one line she says something like that i think but don't quote me

[velvet bolt]

Huh.

Even though it appeared to be dissolving at the end?

I guess I wasn’t even thinking about that.

You think that the power of those hearts is something she just Has now?

My assumption is that they were sort of consumed/spent in the ritual that led to the Red Memory

[spark valve]

They were consumed yes

The hearts and all the soul of the shamans too

[velvet bolt]

At the very least, it’s clear that the flower isn’t As fragile as HK’s everbloom, since hornet can take a licking in the lost lace fight and it’s fine until after

But I felt like pulling that from her memories was a one and done deal

[solid vine]

Guys, was the void ever properly studied before used in experiments?

[hasty locust]

Hornet and gms are related right? So does that mean lace and hornet ship is “odd”?

[solid vine]

Not directly. The weavers are adopted.

[hasty locust]

Hmmm

[foggy fractal]

they're not biologically related but Lace is a child anyways

[hasty locust]

She is?

[foggy fractal]

yes

[foggy fractal]

One to keep far from she was, least for us mortal sorts. Look of a child and a mind to match, but her's been up wanderin' this Citadel longer'n most. Even in its long silence, way 'fore you came and roused its ire. - Caretaker

Silk-spun child possessed by the void. - Hunter's Journal

Sister, sister! Let me confide in you! As I ascended the Citadel's chambers to reach this place, I swear I heard the laughter of a child! - Humble Pilgrim

And Hornet calls Lace a child like 7 times throughout the game

[graceful grail]

Guys, I just realized that Groal can fly because he’s using the back of a Scalped bloat roach

[glacial jasper]

guys i just got to ||white palace and im having trouble doing anything, im trying to find the other white fragment||

[graceful grail]

Just go up

[glacial jasper]

FUCK WRONG CHANNEL

[long tapir]

wrong channel pretty sure its #hk-help

[glacial jasper]

sorry guys never played silksong im out of here have a nice day

[weak cipher]

[long tapir]

all good

[velvet bolt]

Less “adopted” and more akin to “experimented upon”, I’d say

the Weavers are pretty explicitly Not GMS’ children, but rather a race that she created by forcibly “evolving” basic Pharlids into an intelligent form

I feel like they land more in the camp of “slave race” or “science experiment” relative to GMS than “family”

that’s the first sinner’s whole deal, that she committed apostasy when she found out the truth that GMS had lied about them being her daughters

and renounced and raged against her for it

[muted lantern]

First sinner was also imprisoned for the rest of her life for saying that so I imagine the other weavers disagreed.

GMS definitely considered the weavers her daughters. Shes just a horrible abusive mother.

[velvet bolt]

Until they realized she was right, I imagine, but by then she was probably forgotten

She does seem to consider Hornet to be akin to one, much to Lace’s chagrin, although I think the key part is that it’s a one-sided sentiment

The Weavers mollified her and took the mantle of divinity for themselves, so I don’t think they were terribly into the whole “devoted daughters” schtick

[muted lantern]

Gms certainly raised them as her daughters, she just was a horrible abusive parent that saw her children as extensions of herself/objects, which unfortunately isnt an uncommon way for some real world parents to behave. We also arent really given much reason to believe other weavers renounced their ties to gms, especially considering they reacted with such hostility to first sinners claim.

being gms's daughters lended them legitimacy in their eyes. a birthright to the kingdom

The pilgrims didn't even know gms existed so there would be no reason to just push that idea just to convince them. it was for themselves

plus motherhood is a major theme of silksongs story.

[prime mantle]

my headcanon is that the world is post-apocalypse, and that void is dead humans

[shell magnet]

Quirrel comic tells us a lot about the surface

Mostly that everything is stupid out there and it's really windy

[prime mantle]

nothing really supports this but i like it. thematically, void is refuse and regret, and kingdoms pop up in spots. the abyss of a kingdom is just a past grave or graveyard

it could be so that what creates the sanctuary that leads to kingdoms are the remains of these people's souls and essencr

[stray fog]

What happened to the sun?

[prime mantle]

it could be blocked by ash or dust, or pharloom and hallownest could be under ruins/caves which prevent the sun from peeking

that would actually explain the constant wind as draft

[stray fog]

Its like what happened to the dinosaurs

[prime mantle]

yeah exactly

[shell magnet]

The world of hk doesn't exactly need to follow the laws of the real world

There could just be no sun at all

[prime mantle]

it doesn't, but this is how i see it

i just find it fun

[stray fog]

Could this theory make the shrine of believers canon?

[prime mantle]

the shrine of believers?

[shell magnet]

No because it's explicitly described as a "different world"

[prime mantle]

OH the cave with the funders

[random harbor]

Shrine of Believers Moth - Generic - Shrine of Believers First Encounter

You who pry into even the most hidden of dreams... Take heed. Recorded within this shrine are utterings from another world.
Though the words may seem strange, remember they come from minds different to ours, the minds of a group united in mysterious cause.
To believe or disbelieve... The choice is yours.

@pancakeisagod used /npcs misc name: Shrine of Believers Moth category: Generic dialogue: Shrine of Believers First Encounter

[prime mantle]

tbf the another world here could also describe a world from a long time ago, which is how some people use "different world" irl, but i didnt necessarily think about this when i thought up the headcanon

if i were to ascribe it to that i might describe the ghosts as passing thoughts/dreams of past humans given life, like how unn makes greenpath

the way she describes them gave me the idea

[twilit crest]

Hi chat are we feeling normal today

Whoops wc

But still hi lore people

[twilit crest]

An attempt was made

[quartz zodiac]

Lore

[muted lantern]

No lore for you

[twilit crest]

When you say hello to lore, it doesn’t say hello back

[muted lantern]

there is no silksong lore. it was all made up by team cherry to sell more silksong

[muted lantern]

Why the FUCK are kratts eyes different from every other flea... You almost never see white eyes on a bug that doesnt have a dark face like pinstress or the stilkin. What is the reason for this design choice, does he have cataracts??? does he have magical pervert vision???? whats wrong with him??

/lh

[hidden crater]

Kratt is a skinwalker

[ionic basalt]

For quite sometime i thought mooshka's moustache was his eyes so hes always eyes closed

[prime mantle]

me too

i noticed halfway into the game

[unreal estuary]

Maybe he was stuck in that Greymoor cavern for so long his eyes have adapted so heavily to the darkness that now he can't go back

[low oracle]

Team Cherry usually has these readons for white eyes:
-Void
-Dark face (non-void, just dark shell)
-hood/covered face
-glowing eyes (automatons)
-using soul (soul totems)

As you can see, Kratt also has a different type of clothing. Either it‘s a choice purely from aesthetics, or Kratt comes from a completely different region. While the fleas mostly all come from different places, Kratt may come from a place even further away, where the region is completely different. So the most plausible explanation is simply that he‘s a sub-species, just like Obblobbles and Obbles. Or he has perval vision.

[gentle aspen]

looks cool

[limpid summit]

No way rule of cool applies to Krapp

[low oracle]

I think my explanation makes most sense lore-wise. Kratt does not look cool.

[limpid summit]

Yeah he’s probably a different sort of flea

[gentle aspen]

It’s not rule of cool

looks better than having the same eyes

It makes it easier for him to look lecherous

[twin dragon]

We don't know the extent of such hostility

[limpid summit]

Okay okay

I didn’t ask for a lecher

[stray fog]

Snall black eyes might have made him look cute

That mf CANNOT be cute

He needs to be creepy

[wet walrus]

Since all the lore experts are in this chat I wanna ask a question about hollow knight

https://pure-evil-villains.fandom.com/wiki/The_Radiance

Is her categorization accurate?

[sinful nimbus]

As in her being pure evil?

She was wronged in the past but since her goal is basically just causing as much suffering as possible that seems a reasonable assessment

[wet walrus]

Yeah are the points made accurate or true?

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah looks like it

Well "corruption" doesn't make much sense

She's not really in charge of anything so that and "abuse of power" are weird

[limpid summit]

This article even gets moss prophet right

Rare fandom wiki correct characterization

[gentle aspen]

I mean the infection is inherently corruptive ig

[wet walrus]

I mean she is the strongest higher being. Also the only higher being strong enough to antagonize the void. Yet we see her causing mosskin to not hear Unn's calls and making him lose significant amount of powers.
Remember when she failed to destroy mantis village? The mantis traitors exiled to QC began their violent territorian tendencies and threatening WL whom they would kill her guardian dryya

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but its kinda weird to describe a rogue deity being evil as "abuse of power"

[limpid summit]

That’s more of a politician authority figure descriptor is what Star means

She’s just a force of nature

[sinful nimbus]

That carries the connotation of like people in charge of organizations or the government yeah

[limpid summit]

God Radiance is so cool

Genuinely so much grander and more interesting than GMS

sorry GMS

[wet walrus]

That would be correct then

I feel like this is the confusing part

Additionally, the existence of Unn proves that the Pale King was completely fine with other Higher Beings existing in his domain, seeing as she was not only given full authority over Greenpath, but also held her full power until the Infection. As such, the Radiance could have tried to use her vast powers to reach a peaceful settlement with the Pale King, meaning that her attack on Hallownest was less for survival/self-defence, and more to stroke her own bruised ego.

[gentle aspen]

that’s not incorrect

[wet walrus]

Like where is the source she was given full authority over Greenpath?

[limpid summit]

Ehh

Like I guess

Oh that

Well that’s not true

Monomon got Fog Canyon and WL got QG

But that might not have been at PK’s request

[gentle aspen]

?

[limpid summit]

And she might have just relaxed her hold on them as she weakened

[gentle aspen]

She made greenpath

that doesn’t need a source

[sinful nimbus]

Those who stray from the White King's roads shall face the law of Unn.

[wet walrus]

No? Unn did.

[gentle aspen]

Yes???

[sinful nimbus]

I do NOT remember the villains wiki being so peak

[gentle aspen]

Did you read what they said

[wet walrus]

Guys sorry I thought that was the radiance for a second
It was actually Unn

[limpid summit]

This is Pure Evil wiki or wtv

Villains wiki still has PK

[prime mantle]

radiance is flat though gms is more interesting

[limpid summit]

“Secondary antagonist of Hollow Knight”

[limpid summit]

That’s what the game wants you to think

[gentle aspen]

That’s a personal metric

[wet walrus]

PK is also in "Inconsistently Heinous" which isn't a wrong characterization imo.

[sinful nimbus]

😔

[limpid summit]

We can’t even guess at the things everyone says like she wants a perfect child she only actually bashes on the Weavers because they betrayed her duh

Now more Phantom lore would give valuable insight into her thought process

[sinful nimbus]

Still awaiting their slabfly page

[limpid summit]

But Team Cherry got too caught up in the metaphor

Why is one of PK’s crimes “nonfeasance”

He’s the king bro

[prime mantle]

i was replying to an earlier comment

[limpid summit]

Star the entire pale king article is just glazing him in disguise

This is hilarious

[wet walrus]

I honestly wonder. Could gms simply using manipulation tactics?

[stray fog]

Link

[wet walrus]

A "god-king" even 😂
His laws are literal dogmas

[limpid summit]

https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Pale_King

Fell for it again award

[prime mantle]

i don't think gms was trying to be manipulative, we don't have a reason to believe that. she told the weavers they're her daughters (she believes this) and asked them to stay with her forever and serve her (she is lonely and thinks this is okay)

[sinful nimbus]

There is no evidence that he forced anyone to follow him after granting some bugs sapience. Even the Moth Tribe of the Radiance willingly turned their backs on her in favor of worshiping the Pale King. He favored diplomacy with neighboring tribes and is shown to be affable toward other Higher Beings in the lore tablets he wrote. In these, he praises their strength, encourages them to embrace their true forms, and states that they may reside in his kingdom so long as they abide by its laws. His actions proved that his words were not empty, as seen in his allowance of Unn's worship by the Mosskin and his marriage to the White Lady, both of which demonstrate that he genuinely accepted other Higher Beings within his domain.
holy PEAK

i know who wrote ts

[wet walrus]

Ts wasn't me gng ✌️🥀🥀

[prime mantle]

no higher beings ever even came to hallownest after him what are those tablets for

[sinful nimbus]

Despite being a Pale Being, whose kind often seeks to assert dominance, the Pale King tended to be reclusive and rarely left his palace, and he was generally a distant ruler. While he was far from tyrannical, Hallownest was not perfect. There were issues such as a class divide, the mistreatment of maggots, and the construction of the Queen's Gardens in Mosskin territory, which was orchestrated by his wife.
White Lady hate

[prime mantle]

afawk. i mean the vessels can read it but i really dont want to have another braindead whos a higher being convo

[stray fog]

Maggot mistreatment mentioned

Did you write this

[sinful nimbus]

You know

I have to give kudos for them not saying they were enslaved

[wet walrus]

Ngl I am sure the vegetation in Unn's and WL's territories are different

[stray fog]

Why is he on the villain wiki

[prime mantle]

qg was part of greenpath before wl went there. idr if that was before or after the vessels

[sinful nimbus]

oh goodness me

[stray fog]

Half the world is a villain by these standards

[wet walrus]

The cost was too great

[limpid summit]

Kirb ass writing bro

[sinful nimbus]

Its bait

[prime mantle]

powerscaling in my morality wiki

[stray fog]

Dream magic

[wet walrus]

Zote is small building level btw

[sinful nimbus]

Double agent to convert PK haters into PK glazers unknowingly

[prime mantle]

a bug building is like a pebble so

[stray fog]

Not even a power 😭

Just listing qualities

[sinful nimbus]

this is killing me

"Indomitable will"

[prime mantle]

can someone add fat lady rizz here thats a canon trait

[wet walrus]

PK jealousy won't be tolerated😤😤

[stray fog]

My mistake original gangster

[wet walrus]

Hornet also got rizz too

[prime mantle]

she does. shakra, styx, kratt

the only person she can't rizz is bum prince

[wet walrus]

No this cannot be forgiven, now empty the compartments of your geo purse

[stray fog]

For what purpose

[wet walrus]

Nah she says she had partners in the past but outlived all of them

[prime mantle]

i dont see that as a nah, it's an additional fact

[wet walrus]

Crazy rizz over there

[prime mantle]

crizzy

[wet walrus]

She inherited it

[prime mantle]

i sometimes entertain a funny idea about pk's precognition. basically as he came to hallownest he saw a bunch of futures and they all had infections. and wl's infection was SO BAD that he had to rizz her instead of radiance

[wet walrus]

Fuw nawh

[obsidian crow]

Guys I was in a DC Call with sm1 and they said Herrah wasn't a Weaver 😭

[limpid summit]

She is but ig if they’ve only played HK I get it

She wasn’t supposed to be

[sonic sleet]

I don't really get why hornet kills green prince but doesn't kill second sentinel both of these characters are very familiar to what hornet was doing in the past (sentinel is protecting citadel just like hornet protected hallownest and green prince is sad about death of their lover just like hornet had multiple romantic partners which she outlived)

[limpid summit]

She kills Green Prince because he attacks her in his memory

It’s a bit sad but I guess it’s sort of a mercy kill as well

[orchid sun]

That's what she always do she only kills to protect her self or hollownest

[crystal marsh]

VS Battles is a shit wiki

[sinful nimbus]

All of this is true except for memory manipulation though

[jaunty brook]

Does anyone remember why phantom got cast away

I forgot

[limpid summit]

We don’t know

Could have been a conscious decision by GMS for whatever reason

Could have just been in her sleep when she didn’t know Phantom was even born

[jaunty brook]

Oh

Also

Another question about the sisters

Why do people not think lace is a kid

[edgy nebula]

helloooo

[jaunty brook]

It says she's a child right?

[edgy nebula]

usually to ship her with hornet, it differs though

[jaunty brook]

Ph

Oh

Really???

Its not even a good ship

[edgy nebula]

usually yeah

some people genuinely think lace would be better as an adult but that kinda goes against her story 🤷

[sinful nimbus]

stoned on copium

Its either "I want to ship Lace with Hornet" or "How many random mental issues can I project onto Lace"

[jaunty brook]

Damn

I mean

Theoretically if she was an adult

That ship would still be hot cheeks

The fact lace needs hornet to survives creates an awful dynamic

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

You see Hornet x Thistlewind is where its at

[jaunty brook]

At that point its the same as what gms and lace had

[jaunty brook]

Hornet and who?

[edgy nebula]

why is hornet x thistlewind good? they dont seem very similar

[rancid river]

Think it's a crackship

[edgy nebula]

fair

[jaunty brook]

Just tried proving lace is infact a child

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet wishes to fly and likes fluffy things

[jaunty brook]

They don't listen

This is why hornet x thistlewind solos your favs

[sinful nimbus]

Lace being a child is best proved by her interaction after her second fight

Lace: Life? You're too generous! This weak, wasting existence. This was not life, just a husk shaped to act as a child.
Hornet: Yours was life, pale one. Do not confuse your unique creation with its absence. I have seen others make the same mistake.
Lace basically says she was created to be a child and Hornet says in spite of her unique creation her life still has value

There's also Caretaker saying it verbatim and if they keep arguing after that they basically can't read I wouldn't really bother with the discussion

And this is coming from someone who liked the ship before release

[rancid river]

I always interpreted the use of "child" in reference to Lace and Phantom being like,,, subservient? To GMS. But maybe that's my American creeping thru

[sinful nimbus]

That's not really what mind and body of a child to paraphrase Caretaker means

[edgy nebula]

“B-but caretaker is being sarcastic! and he cant know about lace’s creation!!”

[rancid river]

What exactly does the Caretaker say? It's been a while since I've played and I'm too lazy to look it up

[sinful nimbus]

One to keep far from she was, least for us mortal sorts. Look of a child and a mind to match, but her's been up wanderin' this Citadel longer'n most.

Basically contrasting her youth with her actual age, that and Lace 2's dialogue implies she can't actually grow into an adult

[rancid river]

Then is Phantom also a perpetual child?

[sinful nimbus]

Maybe

Its kinda a bit more up in the air since its never mentioned and the fact that she was discarded means she might not share all the same qualities as Lace

[glacial warren]

Phantom has clearly aged, though. She’s grown faded and grey due to a long period of neglect.

She might have remained young like Lace, had the Grand Mother kept up regular maintenance, but she more or less threw Phantom away in favor of a ‘better’ daughter.

[sinful nimbus]

I mean she's not being sustained by silk but that doesn't mean her body or mind grew up

[glacial warren]

Possibly. All we know is she’s just stuck in the Exhaust Organ belching out smog and wants to die vivaciously rather than slowly starve.

[rancid river]

I feel kinda scared to express this but I still feel like the "mind to match" as more... Thematic? I think it's less literally "she can't grow up" and more like. She's stagnated in maturity? I also still very much read it as a nod to subservience, like golden child perfect child stuff in some families
I dunno I promise I'm not trying to be creepy or like... Intentionally being defiant or anything I promise wholeheartedly. It's just my interpretation of the text

[sinful nimbus]

I don't really get where that's coming from I'm ngl

[glacial warren]

It’s more like Lace was never allowed to grow up by the Grand Mother. Either that or her mentality being perpetually adolescent was something the Grand Mother made intentionally.

[sinful nimbus]

Like its not indicated to be metaphorical and the game is pretty consistent on referring to her as a child even up until after beating Lost Lace where the journal entry (the top portion which is pretty unbiased) refers to her as a "silk spun child"

[foggy fractal]

you better be scared because as soon as you put the word "Lace" besides the letter "x" and then the word "Hornet" mods will come and BANBAN you.

[sinful nimbus]

And I don't think you're trying to be creepy or anything

[sinful nimbus]

I also think its kinda irreconcilable with this dialogue because like what would Hornet be trying to say here? "Your unique creation dictates you are destined to be a perfect child but its OK your life still has value" doesn't really line up with what happens in game where Lace betrays GMS

[rancid river]

Not necessarily metaphorically, thematically. They're quite similar but there is a difference.
Obviously some major themes of the game are parent/child relationships (and interfamily trauma in general), power, control, etc. Among the many many other themes. I find Lace's reference as a child, and specifically GMS's child to be playing moreso into the themes of the game. It's a bit weird with the actual lore though, as with the literal mention that she has the body of a child
As for the dialogue, I don't think it conflicts? I think it makes it stronger, actually, with this interpretation. I think this is Hornet speaking of destiny in general, and especially agency. Hornet's "I've seen others make this mistake" seems to be referencing the creation of the vessels. HK and SS actually share some thematic similarity when it comes to "fate": as the vessels are not pure as the PK intended, Lace doesn't have to be GMS's perfect child.
That's how I see it anyway

[sinful nimbus]

I agree that Lace doesn't have to be GMS's perfect child but that doesn't really change her unique traits as a result of her creation, a bit like how vessels aren't pure but their minds still retain unique traits because they were made with the void

I gtg for a bit sorry to leave the conversation abruptly

[gentle aspen]

If that were the case then he probably wouldn’t say that

He’s a magical shaman, he’d be able to intuit the nature of soul creations such as the silken sisters

[twilit crest]

I’m afraid of adding to this topic

[twin dragon]

it's a starpengu take

[lyric meadow]

Chat how long do you think it took Hornet to go through Pharloom (assuming she did everything as fast as possible)? She did canonically destroy everything in her way..

[atomic widget]

Would it be too crazy to say that your total playtime could be used? like 20-50 hours

But it still depends

because canonically, we don't know if she explored everything or just pursued her goals only

[twilit crest]

We can’t assume Hornet opted for maximum speed cause she canonically participates in things like flea games

She chooses downtime at points

[woeful locust]

Most likely a week

[hidden crater]

Light work for weavers since they're probably certified war criminals

[woeful locust]

That is true so that’s why a week seems pretty logical (I think)

[twilit crest]

I’d give it closer to around 30 or 40 days

[woeful locust]

Oh 100%

[woeful locust]

twin
what is that username

[twilit crest]

A good one why u ask

[hidden crater]

Must have been the haunting

[gentle aspen]

what the fuck man

every time I come up with banger ideas star takes credit

this is glorpshit

[twin dragon]

Saying ts because it sucks

[woeful locust]

A trans-sexual tapeworm…
It’s a tapeworm twintercept

[hidden crater]

Hashtagjusticeforhighnoon

[gentle aspen]

not my fault you’re not down with the sauce

[twin dragon]

[gentle aspen]

Shi makes so much sense

[twilit crest]

Wat

[hidden crater]

Least insane day in lore chat

[twilit crest]

Pink sauce

[gentle aspen]

it ties into her belief that she would grow wings
to be with her beloved
ties into her love of fluffy things
ofc she’d want to be with someone who is also a warrior

and she’s unc

its fire

[hidden crater]

Oh my god the house IS ON FIRE

[twin dragon]

cooked so hard everyone around turned to ash

[woeful locust]

I can’t send images

[foggy fractal]

time to get those messages up

[lyric meadow]

True true

[lyric meadow]

Nah that's totally reasonable as well

[limpid summit]

Theres absolutely no way thistlewind and hornet were alive at the same time

And anyway Markoth would be a better partner for her

Brooding aura farmers

[edgy nebula]

both are red too

[lyric meadow]

I'd say 4-7 days to elaborate on this, including downtimes and if she did choose to rest in places like Shakra's tents (where Shakra said she'd watch over her due to her not needing to sleep for a while), her Bellhome (at least once), and considering she did the Flea Games

Definitely under a month though

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah... Totally the reason

[atomic widget]

To me, for a being that doesn't need sleep, food, water or any other bodily sustinance and is always at peak physical function. It wouldn't take her that long at all

[lyric meadow]

I think at times she'd like to relax due to any nervousness and in case she barely escaped a battle alive

[atomic widget]

Hornet is a trained, battle harden warrior and hunter. Her whole life she's been preparing for siuations like these if it ever came to it

[jaunty brook]

Asexual pale king theory

[river frost]

But why would he need the pale lady for the vessels? Maybe for her power?

[twilit crest]

Is first sinner Atla herself? Why/why not

[craggy smelt]

likely yes
Atla's effigy calls her the 'Weaver of time', and speaks of her as knowing history
it would make sense that she knows the history of the Weavers, hence FS having knowledge of their first moments
also Weavenest Atla is the largest nest and seems to have been the site of the greatest efforts to oppose GMS, which would follow if it was the nest of one of the more powerful senior weavers who had great resentment towards GMS, like FS

[sinful nimbus]

Weavenest Atla also has a focus on developing runes n stuff which coincides with Hornet speculating First Sinner was the first weaver to hone that magic

There's also the fact that the weaver effigies seem to correspond to the weavers in their region

[craggy smelt]

Atla was getting up to some serious shit, FS is herself a big deal, etc. etc.

[sinful nimbus]

Bone Bottom effigy

Carving of Camora, Weaver of healing. A prayer is etched upon it.

"Weaver, heal my sons, their fearful hearts, their limbs that shake at the climb to come. We pray, gift but a glimmer of your strength, that when we stand before your divinity, you see bugs shed free of fear."
Mosshome Weaver tablet
Weaver of Pharloom.
By grace you warded. By thread you healed.
For your favour, eternal, we offer our song.

Shellwood effigy

Carving of Keelal, Weaver of the path. A prayer is etched upon it.

"Blessed Weaver, lady of grace, you who see our sin, our frail shells, our voices weak, and still offer your protection. How great your mind to care so much for ones so lowly."
Shellwood Weaver tablet
Sister, spider, husk bound to branch,
Watch over these bugs, passing safe,
Warded by fear,
No longer your meal.

Slab effigy

Carving of Atla, Weaver of time. A prayer is etched upon it.

"By grace of your example, and our history held full in mind, our song is yours, as your name is sacred. Weaver Atla, may you be praised eternal."
First Sinner entry
Ancient Weaver condemned for a transgression lost to time.

TL;DR Mosshome Weaver is probably Camora, Shellwood Weaver is probably Keelal, First Sinner is probably Atla

[craggy smelt]

more weaver effigies

Karn, Murglin, Absolom

Absolom, Weaver of fucking about in the deeps

that's the real shit we need in DLC, more lore items for Scrounge

[twilit crest]

@low oracle thoughts?

[low oracle]

The arguments make sense, but not all is considered. Firstly, First Sinner was imprisoned by the Weavers, and to some extent also the Conductors (seen by her gilded cage and the silken rune chains). So she definitely wasn't very popular, or supposed to be remembered. As we can see, First Sinner is relatively hidden, just like Eva, which is probably something the Weavers did intentionally. So I really doubt they would celebrate her.

In addition, there is the titles and names thing. Titles can function as names (Widow) but both can be used at the same time too (Herrah the Beast, Hornet the Daughter of Hallownest). First Sinner could have been understood as Atla in some way by her effigy (Atla), but there is nothing coming from First Sinner hinting her being Atla. It is mostly one-sided.

First Sinner also isn't confirmed to be the oldest/first Weaver, we simply assume she is old due to the hypothesis of Hornet that she may have invented Rune Rage (or silken runes overall). Having knowledge of their creation is something every Weaver may have had. We only see one example, but that doesn't mean there is only one example. Kinda like the Pale King being the only confirmed Wyrm we see, while nothing speaks against other Wyrms existing.

Overall, I just don't really think that there are enough similarities to justify labelling them the same. First Sinner is never mentioned outside her containment, giving the impression she really was supposed to be forgotten eternally. I also feel Team Cherry would make the similarities/evidence for that much more clear if it were the case, since there is no reason to not give the players the lore they already want to exist.
@twilit crest Here are my thoughts. It's kinda late though, so I don't think I'm really remembering everything I have to be sure of this.

I just found something interesting on the wiki though. The Effigy to Atla is found in the slab, specifically requiring the key of apostate. So maybe there is something to this theory after all.

[sinful nimbus]

First Sinner was imprisoned because she told the truth about the Weavers' divinity

There's nothing really inconsistent about that with the notion that she was Atla, it doesn't mean she wasn't "popular" before her imprisonment

Second paragraph is incoherent if I'm being honest

[craggy smelt]

I don't think that First Sinner was imprisoned by the Weavers at large. I think that was done by the Citadel in the thrall of GMS, possibly with whatever Weavers had joined her like Widow, after Silk started hunting down the Weavers.

There's the theory that First Sinner was going around telling everyone, the pilgrims and such, that Weavers weren't divine and the other Weavers didn't like this. I think this is especially unlikely if she is in fact Atla, since Weavenest Atla developed the Citadel (there are Bellshrines under construction in Weavenest Atla) and the Citadel system depends on pilgrim power.

FS might have been angry at Silk lying about the Weavers' divinity, but it doesn't follow that she would go around telling everybody about it. Certainly not if she'd developed a system that requires pilgrims to serve the Weavers' will.

Also her crime was apostasy, specifically abandoning her god (Silk)
I think claiming that divine beings aren't divine would be more like heresy or something

[sinful nimbus]

First Sinner helping to seal GMS doesn't really mean she'd have to agree with the actions of the weavers afterwards

Fact of the matter is that she pretty clearly was a threat to the Citadel Weavers' rule and is imprisoned within a Citadel prison

That's also why she's imprisoned under "apostasy", the Citadel doesn't care about GMS as their deity that much, the weavers were the divine rulers

[craggy smelt]

maybe, but she seems more pissed off at Silk, and doesn't make mention of being betrayed by her sisters or anything that suggests she was persecuted by them
her dialogue is more like the other Weavers opposed to Silk who were waiting for their chosen one

Cursed by Silk!
Cursed to know...
...Wait, and hate...
...Wait, and die...

[low oracle]

My bad, I tried correcting it to convey my point more clearly.

[craggy smelt]

and apostasy would follow if it was, ultimately, Silk's will that led to her imprisonment

[sinful nimbus]

GMS being the true cause for the actions of the Weavers and the entire Citadel is a whole thing

She's angry at the liar not the lied to

[low oracle]

How would that have happened though? Weavers are incredibly powerful, ensnaring simple bugs with ease. Widow doesn't even use her own silk, and she could already enthrall the entirety of Bellhart in her web. So I doubt any bugs influenced by the haunting would be capable of imprisoning FS.
Additionally, FS was the First Sinner, literally. She was pre-slab, which also means pre-haunting. Basically, there is no way for GMS to have imprisoned her.

[craggy smelt]

at some point Silk haunted the Citadel and started sending out forces to capture Weavers
the Slab might have been instituted pre-Haunting, but when the Haunting started it would have fallen under Silk's influence like anything else
Silk's forces also included loyalist Weavers like Widow who served her
they might be the source of Rune/Silk related stuff like the Runecages

[limpid summit]

The what

They would have all been dead right

There’s no indication that any weaver besides Widow who still worshipped GMS lived

[craggy smelt]

I mean, I guess it's possible that Widow was the only loyalist Weaver

[limpid summit]

Yes

But she didn’t even really help GMS

More than by proxy I guess

GMS didn’t care about her

The rune cages were uhhh

I dunno

[craggy smelt]

we don't get a lot of information about what her role was in the Citadel hierarchy

[limpid summit]

I would argue nonexistent

[craggy smelt]

she must have been involved with them to some degree, at least as a slave or servant, since she was subjected to the whole pins-in-the-spine thing

[low oracle]

Widow was the only loyal Weaver, and she was likely staked by other Weavers for that reason, which is why she is so much weaker. Which means FS could easily take her on.
In addition, don't forget that FS was pre-slab, which is pre-haunting, which makes GMS not work.

[timber pond]

Thats the real question. When and who is sending out the rune cages. Is GMS Just doing it through the dead corpses by proxy or are/were the citadel doing it. Or were the orders given when the citadel still functioned

[low oracle]

It is the case from what we understand. Why else would she be the only one we see?

[low oracle]

They were likely created a long time ago, but are now being used by GMS. Carrying them isn't very complex, the enchanting however was most likely just not done in current times.

[craggy smelt]

Widow's memory in the Cradle uses the plural a couple times (we hear you, our mother, etc.)
I don't think that's any statement that she was the only loyalist Weaver
others may have died over time for various reasons (age, combat, consumed for silk)

[limpid summit]

I would like to say it’s GMS influencing the haunted Citadel bugs to do it

And the rune cages yeah need not have been manufactured in real time

[limpid summit]

But like what’s the point

[timber pond]

I just find it hard to belive that haunted bugs can go so far away from pharloom

[limpid summit]

They all would have been wiped out pre Conductor era

[timber pond]

And also retain thier combat power

[limpid summit]

Yeah it’s weird

But that’s what happens

I forget the journal entry

But the bugs who captured her were haunted

[timber pond]

Like isn't the whole point of the surface to tell us that GMS influence can't go outside her web /physical range

[limpid summit]

Yup

[timber pond]

How tf can haunted bugs traverse half the world

[limpid summit]

I guess she can send already haunted bugs out

[low oracle]

All Weavers and GMS use plural, they just do it like that. FS also says "our rage", yet none else do so.

[limpid summit]

She just can’t make more from that distance

[low oracle]

Legs

[low oracle]

Why?

[timber pond]

Because they at this point lack mental faculty to travel a land they never have before

[limpid summit]

No it’s understandably strange considering GMS can’t even haunt upward

[low oracle]

They don't need a brain when they are being manipulated by a Higher Being.

[timber pond]

And also the writen comand to capture hirnet

[limpid summit]

I guess it’s like an imprint once you got the silk in you GMS can just send you out remotely

[craggy smelt]

I mean this is a tangent about when First Sinner was imprisoned and by who
rebel Weavers at large during the running of the Citadel, or Silk and her forces after the Haunting started
the Citadel under Silk has access to rune/silk, either with the aid of loyal Weavers like Widow or without them
so FS being bound by Runes doesn't necessarily mean it was the rebel Weavers who did it

[low oracle]

Why would she....?

[limpid summit]

Why wouldn’t she?

[timber pond]

But her manipulation is physicaly tied to the silk

The silk is only stretching down in pharloom

[limpid summit]

Her webs stretch down and snare random animals

Why not up to snare random animals

[craggy smelt]

maybe, though Widow refers to herself in singular (Let me claim her all for you!) - she does also mention that she's the last (of the first)

[low oracle]

There are no physical strings necessary. The bugs have already all this silk inside of them from the Whiteward, which makes the haunting so much easier in the first place.

[timber pond]

Also why should a letter need to be sent out in that case

As in the comandment

[limpid summit]

Well there’s no way the slab predates the citadel

[low oracle]

The last of the Weavers, no? Since she literally is.

[limpid summit]

And I think the rebel weavers would have freed her if these loyalist weavers imprisoned her for the apostasy of not following GMS

[limpid summit]

Well you gotta have a record

Everyone needs a record

[low oracle]

It isn't really a letter, more of the recordings of what happened. That's just from the way the haunting works. It isn't direct control, but moreso orders conveyed through emotion. Which is why haunted bugs are so madly hostile, but also do their own thing when not actively fighting.

[craggy smelt]

yeah
hence she might have switched from using the plural to the singular, since it's down to just her really

[low oracle]

And the Envoys just have always recorded stuff, so why stop now?

[timber pond]

I just dont understand why she would care about recording anything. The citadel bugs, sure, but GMS? Why would she care

[low oracle]

Also, remember that the Weavers weren't always rebelling. At that time, the plural to GMS supporters actually applies, since they didn't rebel yet.

[low oracle]

She doesn't. That is the haunting working as I explained above.

[limpid summit]

She probably just imbued a general “get Weaver” command and had them do their own thing with regards to it

Which included administrative paperwork

Vibe coding

[low oracle]

Perhaps read my explanation above, I believe it makes most sense.

[limpid summit]

Yeah you’re right

[timber pond]

But like wouldnt the haunting get weaker the further away from gms you got

[limpid summit]

Haunting is less like that than infection

[limpid summit]

We’re shown it doesn’t idk what to tell you

Yes it’s weird

But that’s what happens

[low oracle]

No, since the veiled bugs have silk inside of them. They don't need outside strings attached, when there are permanent inside strings.
They don't need a mind to think, when they don't have a mind of their own.

[limpid summit]

Imagine if someone gave you a command along with something that rewired your brain so you’d follow that command even if they didn’t directly follow up on it

That’s the haunting for them

[timber pond]

I just find it odd that its perpetual. If that were the case couldnt GMS Just have rewrote the weavers brains by possesing them to make sure they never rebeled after everything went wrong

Because they weavers have silk

[low oracle]

I think it's more like "wanting her daughters to come back" -haunted bugs start bringing back her daughters. Idk, imma go now. I'm really fricking tired, and it's around 3:30 or so.

[limpid summit]

Good night

[low oracle]

The Weavers were ascended, not haunted. They produce silk themselves, just like Hornet, so they don't actually use outside silk coming from GMS.

[limpid summit]

I mean it probably wasn’t even an idea on her part

[craggy smelt]

at some point, the rebels must have got into power, since Silk was imprisoned in the Citadel (if loyalists had been a majority, they surely would have interfered with this)
eventually the Citadel system failed and Silk took it over with the Haunting (with at least one loyalist Weaver in her service)
there's nothing that would contradict a timeline that has Silk take over the Citadel (including the Slab) and then use the Citadel to hunt and imprison Weavers, including First Sinner

[limpid summit]

Like how Rad didn’t need to infect the moths

Ancient Weaver condemned for a transgression lost to time

Would this not be relatively recent comparatively

[timber pond]

Thats a good point tho. If rad was angry at the moths why didn't she just infect the moths to make them loyal

[limpid summit]

First Sinner was the First of the First

The slab wasn’t conductor era

Her cage has weaver architecture

[craggy smelt]

who knows, time is fucked in this setting
the weavers fled Silk's takeover before the fall of Hallownest, which was ages ago

[limpid summit]

But why would the transgression be lost to time if multiple bugs remember Conductor era events (which would have hypothetically been before this)

I know the same was true of ancient Hallownest

But it just seems dissonant to refer to her transgression in that way if it wasn’t before how the Citadel has been built up

I would say the rebel Weavers overthrew GMS still thinking they were divine daughters

Then under Weaver rule FS eventually discovered the truth and they locked her up to preserve their claim to rule

[craggy smelt]

that would make FS' transgression (if it's telling pilgrims the truth about weavers) more recent than a rebellion against Silk
whereas if she was locked up for that initial rebellion, that would have been an older transgression, practically pre-Citadel (basically the foundationl event of the Citadel)

prehistoric really

[limpid summit]

I’m just talking about it in comparison to the Haunting era

Weaver times are still ancient

Shakra talks about the Weavers like demons

[craggy smelt]

sure, but FS being imprisoned isn't necessarily happening shortly after her crime
if Silk eventually took control and was the one to imprison FS for rebellion, that's her being imprisoned in Haunting era (comparatively recent) for an ancient pre-Citadel crime

[limpid summit]

She’s still the first of the first though

[craggy smelt]

I also just think that it's more likely that FS discovering the truth was the inciting incident for the rebellion against Silk

[limpid summit]

Logistically it doesn’t make sense

[craggy smelt]

sure, the first of the weavers
like how Widow is the last of the first, the last of the weavers

[limpid summit]

If I was capturing an immortal prisoner in a jail of 20 individuals I wouldn’t call them Prisoner 1

[craggy smelt]

but if I were a god-being imprisoning the first member of my first children, I might

[limpid summit]

This is Weaver tech and architecture unlike the rest of the Slab

[craggy smelt]

Silk has access to all that stuff doesn't she?
her haunted forces are also using rune/silk (runecages etc.)

and Widow (I really feel like there had to have been other loyalists...)

[limpid summit]

Yeah with Conductor era tech

Okay here’s the thing

Within the larger Conductor Slab there is a Weaver prisoner inside a Weaver cage

You can either assume the Conductor era slab was built up around this Weaver era cage

Or you can say that GMS randomly dug deep within the slab and imprisoned FS with an antiquated lock

[craggy smelt]

I don't see why the Slab couldn't have been an original Weaver-era institution
it doesn't follow that Sinner must therefore have been imprisoned there during that era though

[limpid summit]

I just feel like it would be weird for the game to do that

You spend time traversing the Slab getting the apostate key to go deeper

All to find a prisoner that was imprisoned more recently than like Old Penitent

That doesn’t track

[craggy smelt]

the age doesn't necessarily track with the severity of the crime, old penitent's sins might be regarded as fairly unmarkable compared with Apostasy

for me, it just doesn't seem plausible that FS' crime was telling people (who even, pilgrims? Citadel guys?) that weavers weren't divine and therefore shouldn't be served, when the Citadel depends on pilgrim service

especially implausible if FS is in fact Atla, since Atla seems to have been at the forefront of the rebellion and building the Citadel in the first place
FS being pissed off about Silk's lies doesn't necessarily mean that she suddenly cares about common bugs knowing the truth

Weavers kinda seem like assholes all around, why would she care about the well-being of the common herd

[tacit crown]

what is the crest with the most lore?

[gentle aspen]

what is wrong with you

[tepid yarrow]

G-gulp a mod

im sorry

IM SORRY

[dreamy onyx]

I think most of them were dead by then

also we dont know how much the radiance controlled the infection directly

[muted lantern]

Architect. Or hunter if you count hornets lore as hunter crest lore.

[crystal marsh]

did they post something bad

[tacit crown]

just...... being Weird

[tacit crown]

thanks

[nimble steeple]

Was gms saving pharloom from the void?

[limpid summit]

Sister, spider, husk bound to branch, Watch over these bugs, passing safe, Warded by fear,
No longer your meal.

Firstly Weavers evidently changed their mindset as shown here

And all the effigies are dedicated to seemingly benevolent entities

The burden of the Citadel began to weigh on the Weavers, especially as their Silk waned

And finding out about the great lie must have been the last straw for Atla

It likely would have been the pilgrims/those who worshipped yeah

After her rebellion, the Weavers would have been even more focused on keeping the Citadel intact

So they passed it to the Conductors as they died

[craggy smelt]

yes, they wanted pilgrims to reach the Citadel to maintain the song

Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence.
they placed the burden of containing Silk on the bugs of the Citadel, and the Citadel needs pilgrims - they were using them

the fact that they were eating bugs at any point shows their regard for them before they served a purpose
also comments like:

Mask Maker: [...]their wicked, clever minds.
Shakra: Weaver? Those vicious old things!

I find it more likely that Atla's discovery was what finally tipped her over into rebellion - the last straw as it were

[limpid summit]

Yeah I mean they were false rulers no way around it

And they were vicious

That’s how they’re remembered by some groups who didn’t forget

But the Shellwood tablet and effigies show they changed their tune somewhat

[limpid summit]

I mean it sort of makes sense but the Slab can’t be pre Citadel

It just doesn’t make sense

It doesn’t look like pre-Citadel Weaver architecture (Weavenests) and it would be inconsistent and awkward for her to be imprisoned post Conductor era

She has to be Weaver era

Apostasy implies sacrilege

The Weavers touted their divinity as an institution

GMS did no such thing

She didn’t extend her rule past the Weavers beyond jockeying with Khann and Karmelita

Both things could be true at once though

She could have had the revelation, sparked the rebellion that led some weavers to leave and some to build the bellshrines in Atla

Then right after GMS was sealed, they wanted to rule so they sealed her

[craggy smelt]

The effigies are made by their worshippers, the simple bugs
(and in fact the shellwood tablet is referring to a dead Weaver so naturally she isn't going to be eating anybody)
but yes, they want bugs passing safely because again, the Citadel needs pilgrims to function

[craggy smelt]

I'm not arguing the Slab is pre-Citadel - it's a Citadel-made institution
and in fact all the fancy filigree would actually suggest something Conductor-era, if the early Weaver-era was simpler (unadorned stone, etc.)

if FS' prison was something the Weavers made to contain her and keep her from spilling the beans to Citadel bugs, you'd actually expect them to stick her in a Weavenest or something, far away from anything Citadel related

what is implausible about this timeline:
-Atla learns the truth and convinces the Weavers to rebel
-Weavers imprison Silk
-Weavers found the Citadel, its various intitutions including the Slab are established
-Weavers eventually hand the Citadel over to the Conductors
-Silk starts to Haunt the Citadel
-Silk's Haunted hunt the Weavers and capture Atla
-Atla is thrown in the Slab for being the first to sin against Silk
-The first to abandon her god, the definition of apostasy

[limpid summit]

I don’t really understand this

They didn’t have pilgrims going to the Slab for faithful purposes anyway

It makes sense to keep her under citadel control in a place where she wouldn’t be able to spread the truth

[craggy smelt]

Why keep her in a Citadel-run facility if the concern is that she's going to tell the bugs of the Citadel the truth?

What's to stop her from preaching to the guards?
"Hey guards, you know how you're all enslaved here because you supposedly sinned against the divine? Well have I got a revelation for you..."

If the point is to keep her from spreading the truth to the Citadel, why have her near the Citadel in any capacity. Why not lock her up in the Weavenests, way the hell hidden away from anything connected to the Citadel.

Unless she was locked up by someone who knew about ths Slab, but not the Weavenests, them being below her 'sight'...

[limpid summit]

Because it’s symbolic

She was entombed anyway

Absolution not granted

There would be no risk of her preaching to the guards

That’s not a factor

[craggy smelt]

well, she died at some point
I am presuming she was alive when she was captured, thrown in a cage, and locked up with extensive runic bindings
a lot of trouble to go to for a symbol otherwise, doing all that to a corpse

[twilit crest]

So in conclusion…?

[light mauve]

Ultrakill reference

[light mauve]

Why didn’t they just kill her

[craggy smelt]

that's a good question, regardless of who locked her up
(maybe eventually they did...)

[muted lantern]

So she wouldn't be a martyr

[light mauve]

Why didn’t they just kill gms while she was sleeping?

[muted lantern]

She sleeps in the big impenetrable cocoon

that managed to hold its own against the entire force of the void for a while

[light mauve]

Why couldn’t they use silk spear

[light mauve]

To be fair there is less void in pharloom than hallownest

[muted lantern]

Doubtful silkspear could go through that

As againn, it held off the full force of the void

[light mauve]

Smaller void

[muted lantern]

it's the entire void, the void in hallownest and pharloom is connected. it's a sea below all things, basically the core of the world

[stray fog]

Still a whole sea of void

How mych more void could they use

[light mauve]

What about multiple fourth choruses + big drills and smth

[light mauve]

No? Where did you get ts from

[muted lantern]

"And the void below ALL things, that darkness I will fear no longer..."

Shadow creeper, a abyss creature: "A creature long familiar to me. I suspect that no matter how far I travel, if I descend deep enough they will always be there."

[muted lantern]

From what we've seen gms's silk strands like the ones holding bb need to all be broken at once or they will regenerate. With something the size of the cradle one thats nigh impossible.

[light mauve]

We clearly see boundaries of the abyss

The void is connected as a hive mind

[muted lantern]

Boundaries Of the caverns that reach into the abyss. But those are just openings into the void sea. The void is below all things, as hornet says.

[light mauve]

How does she know

Was she there

[muted lantern]

Are we just going to decide shes lying? her father studied and researched the void, she spent her life keeping the vessels contained. what are we talking about

[stray fog]

She was there more than any of us

[light mauve]

She was never inside the hallownest abyss tho

[muted lantern]

Her father. researched it. He knows more about the void than we do. Clearly so does she.

[light mauve]

She never said anything about the big void sea maybe she implied that every kingdom is built on top of void

[light mauve]

She didn’t live with him though

[muted lantern]

We get a whole cutscene showing that she used to live in the white palace.

[light mauve]

Not that long

[cloud comet]

Its called hallow nes for a reason man

[muted lantern]

Thats an assumption.

[cloud comet]

HALLOWnest

[stray fog]

I know that there is a layer of iridium underground, even though I have never seen it myself

[muted lantern]

So its less farfetched for every kingdom in the world to be coincidentally built above the void, rather than the void just being below all things like hornet straight up tells us.

[stray fog]

I know this because some other humans discovered this fact

[cloud comet]

So lets make a theory if there is gonna be a third hk game what will the mc be ?

Or who

[stray fog]

I hope its thk

[light mauve]

Lace

[cloud comet]

Nah quirell would be cool

[stray fog]

Quirrel in the wastes will be very good for the lore

[cloud comet]

I mean lace ? What is her lore even abt

[stray fog]

More wasteland lore and worldbuilding

[cloud comet]

Yeah its gonna be smth abt prime hallownest

[stray fog]

Tc said that the theme of this franchise is to explore dying kingdoms

So no prime hallownest unfortunately

[cloud comet]

Hmmmmm thk then wouldnt fit

[pale narwhal]

hallow means holy or sacred

[whole holly]

both Kingdoms are somehow sacred, i know Higher Beings tend to establish kingdoms directly or indirectly it would be interesting if rulers of some civilizations weren't higher beings, like what we got with AC and Old Hearts

i also have question

Crystals in Hollow Knight are weird, they are refracting light, holding energy amplifying focus and also causing dreams if we believe Elina's Journal
Coldshard in Silksong is related to memories and mnemonic forces? is it possible that Crystals generally are related to dreams and memories?

[pale narwhal]

AC was?

[whole holly]

i mean not sacred because they worshiped individual god or something like that, they worshiped very darkness itself

[pale narwhal]

sprry, i mean whats AC

[fresh badger]

Ancient civilization/caste

They were spread all throughout Hallownest, and Pharloom's Abyss

Manipulated soul and had a spell they later forbid that let them weaponize void

[whole holly]

Ancient Civilization

[whole holly]

They used soul and void, which is really interesting technology, what led them to downfall I wonder ?

[fresh badger]

Shrug

[tiny ermine]

Could it be possible that the snail shamans are the descendants of that civilization?

[vivid ermine]

Shakra ITS suster of cornifers wife

[tiny ermine]

They both manipulate soul || and in act 3 they did summon a portal to the void ||

[mental thicket]

why cant i send images here

[tiny ermine]

You need to send 300 words to unlock image perms

It was done so to stop spammers

I don’t know if there is a signal to when you unlock it

[blissful harbor]

they all simply jumped into the void

[kindred ingot]

I got bored so I made a doc with everything I could remember about every named Weaver

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NdG2PovjBflsif6kZMu5IdPBDew42sz841gE7jT1yCk/edit?usp=sharing

[gentle aspen]

Probably not

[twin dragon]

I mean not every kingdom was built above the void

AC smoked that shi

[twin dragon]

The void consuming them whole maybe?

[tawdry oak]

Who the fuck is ||mister mushroom and what does he want||

why does he keep appearing

[spark valve]

mister mushroom is the master herald, he shows up whenever big things are transpiring that mark the end of an age as a witness

[tawdry oak]

oh so his entire thing is being there when shit goes down? thats surprisingly simlpe

[spark valve]

yeah

he doesn't really seem to want anything he's just an observer

[high bronze]

So is hornet obsessed with fluffy things because a lot of the hive members she grew up with are also fluffy or am i overthinking it

Also are weavers fluffy?

[limpid summit]

Weavers aren’t fluffy

As far as the hive thing idk maybe

Not a bad headcanon

[tawdry flare]

what about Hallowscribe…

[pallid blade]

What’s hallowscribe?

[tawdry flare]

look at /hallowscribe

[pallid blade]

Also, who’s the mushroom guy that I see in both games and in an ending for both games?

[tawdry flare]

^

[pallid blade]

Thanks

[stray fog]

This app has more features I think

[tight anchor]

What's up with pale beings and murdering thier children

[unkempt quail]

lol I legitimately didn’t know this existed, I just looked through the google doc of resources and didn’t see anything like it. That being said, this will include Silk Song text as well (which it doesn’t seem like Hallowscribe does unless I’m misreading). Also, this app lets you combine different filters, export/share data, and has all the text tagged with topics

[pallid blade]

Pretty sure they were looking for a pure vessel (one born from void and god) or something like that, there was a parkour kind of platforming they had to do and most of the siblings fell and died

The ones who didn’t were Ghost and The First Hollow Knight

They had to have “no will to break” essentially: hollow

[tight anchor]

They must do nothing

[pallid blade]

They must FEEL nothing

A single thought would make one “impure” which is what happened to The First Hollow Knight

[whole holly]

i used it to find about Radiance's Description, i am grateful since it is more reliable than Wiki, i found name Blazing three times which suggest the importance of it

Corpses & Statues Dream Nail:...Lost... / Protect... / Too long... spent together. We become as one... / ...Blazing...Bright... / ...Light... / ...Bright... / ...Light...|Queen's Gardens
Journal - Hunter:Heavyset miner of the Crystal Peak overcome by crystal growth. Can discharge blazing beams of light from its crystallised limbs. How does the world look to this creature, gazing out from within its crystal prison? Does it see only light? Is that what drives it into a frenzy? Crystal Guardian Crystal Peak
Lore Tablets:|No blazing kin. Only one light shall shine against the dark. The Wyrm becomes beacon, minds expanded, to yield, to devote. Eternity in promise and charge in progeny cursed.|White Palace Throne Room|Pale King, Vessels

it is related to Infection as well as Crystal Refraction as well as Radiance herself

"blazing light" specifically

[stray fog]

Maybe this relates back to our crystal peak discussion earlier today

[whole holly]

yeah, it would refract blazing light, but word Blazing seems to be mentioned more

this is such extensive tool, tbh and very well put

[limpid summit]

Yeah I like it

It’s pretty cool

[whole holly]

have you used it?

[limpid summit]

Well I haven’t like tried to theorycraft with it

But it’s very comprehensive people totally could

[whole holly]

honestly, i can find lot of instances where Knight is called pale

[limpid summit]

How many instances

[whole holly]

overall it supports my hypothesis that Pale is different trait to Higher Caste but when overlapping term is Pale Being, but Pale Things such as Knight and Hornet aren't Higher Beings for most of the game

[limpid summit]

I mean I would agree

I don’t think there’s a meaningful distinction between pale being and pale thing though

[whole holly]

most of it is from tiso

[whole holly]

it is Pale Being is only referred to Pale bugs that are also higher beings

[fresh badger]

Ehhhh im not sure on the crystal refraction stuff given enraged guardian's beams are orange infection light

[limpid summit]

I think that’s just him using pale as white

Like the pale rosary necklace

[fresh badger]

Oh who was it that talked about coldshard and cp crystals earlier

[whole holly]

i mean light has to be refracted

[limpid summit]

He obviously doesn’t regard TK highly

[whole holly]

me

[fresh badger]

Yeha but the blazing attribute is probably just Radiance infection light causing it, not the crystals

[whole holly]

that's the thing though, people regard pale as precious, unique and rare, Higher Beings as divine royal and so on, Pale Beings are combination of those

[whole holly]

yeah, that's what i am saying, Crystals are refracting her light, she is blazing light

[limpid summit]

But Hornet refers to herself as pale

She’s a pale being

[fresh badger]

So yknow how in crystal peaks the crystals are like parasitic with their growths on all the fauna and rapid growth

Coldshard also kinda does that with how when Hornet dies she gets encased in coldshard

[fresh badger]

Oh, yeah

[limpid summit]

Hornet Lace Phantom are pale beings the bugs who would become the Vessels likely were too

[whole holly]

she is pale but not pale being, game makes huge distinction of it and we can't see it

[tight reef]

Chee burber fed pharlom

[limpid summit]

No the game makes the distinction that she tries not to be like them

[whole holly]

yeah Coldshard and Crystals both affect lifeforms and they are parallels

[limpid summit]

Devotion or destruction the only fates my kind allow

[whole holly]

she is never referred to as "Pale Being" just Pale

[limpid summit]

She isn’t touted as completely different physiologically

[limpid summit]

In the context of her being related to actual pale beings yes

[whole holly]

she says her kind because they are her lineage but that doesn't inherently prove she shares same Pale Being status

[limpid summit]

“She isn’t referred to as a Pale Being she’s just referred to as a Pale being” is what I’m getting

[whole holly]

that's because you aren't listening, exact words matter and that's deliberate distinction, Hornet is not Pale Being because only higher Beings are called Pale Beings in those exact words and Hornet is only called pale... that's intentional

[limpid summit]

She’s pale

What is there to argue

Mentions of her kind have to refer to her pale being status because higher being isn’t hereditary

[whole holly]

Pale and Pale Being are different things game uses those terms differently, Pale Being is like Venn Diagram overlap between Pale Lifeform and Higher Being

[whole holly]

hornet is Pale Bug and Knight is Pale Thing specifically

[whole holly]

Hornet is not pale being since she is just Pale Bug, requirement to be Pale Being is to be Pale and Higher Being, Pale Being means Higher Beings that's pale but it is shortened to Pale Being for naming convention

game does abide by that rule with how they use terminology, there is clear pattern of that

are there any questions

[lyric meadow]

yesyes this

[frank dove]

Wait did you play the game?

[pallid blade]

Yea, but never knew who he was until an hour ago

[frank dove]

Well ig nothing is really clear from his dialogue 😭

[pallid blade]

Exactly

[crystal marsh]

uh, iirc Pale Being doesn't mean you're also a Higher Being

[whole holly]

Pale Being is title only referred to Higher Beings that are Pale

[crystal marsh]

what's the source for this claim

[whole holly]

fact that only White Lady, Pale King and Grand Mother Silk are referred to as "Pale Being" or "Being Pale"

[edgy nebula]

pale beings are probably just pale higher beings

[whole holly]

My Knight... At last you are freed.

Small thing. I know your kind.
If you attempt to resolve your past then know I am not the queen you seek.
It is the pale beings that bear blame for your nature.
Though this hive exists within Hallownest, we play no part in its attempt at perpetuation.

Hornet dialogue with Green Prince: "You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow."

[craggy smelt]

Hornet also considers herself one, when talking to Green Prince

You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow.

🐌

[edgy nebula]

hornet is a stupid nerd i think

[crystal marsh]

Hornet isn't a higher being herself, she rejects said label

so that proves your assertion false via counterexample

[craggy smelt]

she's part of the whole pale being/higher caste group, but she herself isn't a god-tier higher being pale being

[whole holly]

it is her kind in terms of lineage, not the title

[crystal marsh]

the original claim was that Pale Being was a class of Higher Being
Hornet accepting one label but rejecting the other shows that the original definition is false

[whole holly]

she considers same kind as pale beings in terms of genealogy but she knows that she is not pale higher being, which is what pale being means

[crystal marsh]

ok so you're moving the goalposts then

[whole holly]

kind
noun
a group of people or things having similar characteristics.
character or nature.
each of the elements (bread and wine) of the Eucharist.

[whole holly]

????

[whole holly]

it could refer to nature she shares with Pale Beings not the status... hence her being pale bug but not pale being

[whole holly]

like i said, game abides with that terminology, as well see it's concrete usage

[craggy smelt]

it's what we assumed pale being meant when we only knew about maybe 2 of them who were both higher beings
we've learned since that there is an entire caste of different entities who are pale, only some of whom are god-tier higher beings

there are pale beings, part of an expansive 'higher caste'
there are some of that caste who are god-like higher beings, setting themselves above all others as rulers and monarchs
Hornet is a pale being who rejects the role of god-monarch

(and technically she might not qualify anyway without a power boost like WQ)

[whole holly]

that does refute my point in fact it aligns with it, i know that Pale Being is overlap between Pale Lifeforms and Higher Beings

[craggy smelt]

I broadly agree

[whole holly]

only higher beings that are pale specifically are referred to as Pale Beings, hornet shares pale nature but she is said to be Pale... not Pale Being, game abides with this terminology even if difference may seem subtle

Knight is called Pale Thing in Hollow Knight which is very different that Pale Being... regardless of how other people interpret it

[craggy smelt]

I don't think there's ever a distinction between pale being and Pale Being with capitals... Hornet refers to Silk as 'a being pale' i.e. pale being, and herself as one as well

[light mauve]

Since when is hornet not a higher being

[whole holly]

she just isn't, she is just higher caste

[light mauve]

https://tenor.com/view/he-made-a-statement-meme-alien-dog-dog-statement-gif-13429066535213053756

[craggy smelt]

I mean that's just Tiso commenting on their color
that TK does in fact have a connection to the pale beings is a coincidence

[whole holly]

what a substantive argument

[light mauve]

She is daughter of pale king

Soo

[whole holly]

color is how Paleness is determined, if we ignore Palestag, Pale Lake and Pale Lurker

[whole holly]

and Herrah the Beast

[light mauve]

Ok?

[whole holly]

okay so? being a child of Higher being doesn't make you one

[light mauve]

Why

[limpid summit]

Color is how paleness is determined if we ignore the evidence against this idea

[craggy smelt]

yeah, like... no. don't ignore those things

[limpid summit]

Wrong game 💔

[craggy smelt]

sounded cool though

[light mauve]

And then silence

[whole holly]

because being above all others and being fathomless isn't something that can be inherited

[deep arrow]

yeah uh i kinda noticed right after pressing enter

[light mauve]

How did they become a higher being

[limpid summit]

The knight?

[light mauve]

How can anyone become a higher being then

[light mauve]

Hornet

[limpid summit]

Binding a higher being that subsumed her

She’s only a higher being in the Weaver Queen ending

[whole holly]

Pale Lurker is called that because of devotion, Palestag is touched Pale so it can support theory, Pale Lake is mystery so isn't really applicable because reason isn't known, what's why i said it

[whole holly]

reason is Pale Lurker is called that because of devotion, Palestag is touched Pale so it can support theory, Pale Lake is mystery so isn't really applicable because reason isn't known, what's why i said it

[limpid summit]

Pale Rosary Necklace

It’s just white pearls

[whole holly]

idk, we just know that they are, it is a mystery

[light mauve]

Who are higher beings in your understanding

[whole holly]

it appear as white though, visibly pale things are called pale

[limpid summit]

Pale having different connotation doesn’t mean pale = white is nonexistent it’s like how Mask is used to mean actual masks

TK is called pale by Tiso because it’s white

There is no suggestion that Tiso is conscious of these connotations of pale he only looks upon you with derision

[whole holly]

confirmed ones like Pale King, White Lady, Radiance, Grand Mother Silk, Nightmare Heart, Unn

[limpid summit]

GMS WL NMH Rad Unn PK Lord of Shades

These are the only seven we can be sure of

Probably WQ Hornet

[whole holly]

i don't get your point, Pale Being are known to have Pale Light or Pale Gleam, surely color is recognized enough at least for Tiso to recognize Knight as Pale

[limpid summit]

It’s white

[light mauve]

I meant like what makes a higher being a higher being in your understanding

[whole holly]

plus we know that Knight and Hornet have Pale Physiology inherited from Pale King and White Lady

[whole holly]

it is said to be god-like fathomless beings of higher caste, so i just believe facts

[limpid summit]

“Existing above all others” which is to say demonstration of godlike power

Or explicit confirmation

[whole holly]

they have Pale Shell, we know this

[limpid summit]

Yes

That doesn’t mean Tiso is characterizing them as a Pale being but not a Pale Being

He’s saying pale because they are white

[light mauve]

And hornet isn’t?

[limpid summit]

He’s basically saying “white boy”

[limpid summit]

Are you using this to substantiate the claim that “Pale beings are pale higher beings instead of just pale beings”

Hornet’s kind is pale beings

Her kin

[whole holly]

hornet is not god-like or fathomless although she becomes one

[limpid summit]

She doesn’t refer to lineage of pale beings

She refers to Wyrm and Weaver lineage sure

[whole holly]

which is inherited trait from pale beings

[whole holly]

Pale Being is term that's only applied to Pale Higher Beings, hornet's family is pale beings yeah,

[whole holly]

Weavers aren't Pale

[limpid summit]

I know

[limpid summit]

My kind

She’s counting herself amongst them

That’s what you’d use to put yourself in that group

[frank dove]

Pale lurker

[whole holly]

kind

noun
1 a group of people or things having similar characteristics.
2 character or nature.
3 each of the elements (bread and wine) of the Eucharist.

[frank dove]

Wait

What is it called

[whole holly]

i think it is second definition

[frank dove]

Lurker mb

Pale lurker

[whole holly]

she has same nature as them although not their status

[limpid summit]

That definition refers to a nature or quality rather than a subgroup

It doesn’t actually fit Hornet’s statements in context

She’s referring to herself as a pale being

I don’t know how much more clear this dialogue could be

[whole holly]

why though it fits nature... hornet's statement, whole game is about her overcoming it

[limpid summit]

“Devotion or destruction…these are the only fates my nature allows”

[crystal marsh]

which does not necessarily also mean "higher being"

[limpid summit]

It’s not about the context of the statement it’s how this definition of kind fits into it

[whole holly]

"beings of my nature allows"

[limpid summit]

It does not

[limpid summit]

This is way clunkier than “my kind” meaning “my people”

[whole holly]

it is reserved for them

[limpid summit]

“These are the only fates my nature, which I share with these beings, allows”

This is an extrapolation

Kind is also rarely ever used in this context why start now

[gentle aspen]

she talks about pale beings and marks them as her kind

[whole holly]

it isn't as it fits White Lady, Grand Mother Silk and Pale King as well full context, entire game is about her overcoming traits, characteristics she got from both of her lineage

[limpid summit]

Yes she is a pale being

She got those traits from her pale father

[whole holly]

reread convo... i am arguing again same stuff over and over

[gentle aspen]

I am not rereading an entire conversation

[whole holly]

she shares characteristics with one as well as Herrah the Beast

[crystal marsh]

she is a pale being
she is not a higher being

[gentle aspen]

She calls herself a pale being

the term isn’t solely used for higher beings

it’s pretty explicit

[whole holly]

it is directly... other one is indirect and kind has multiple meanings

[gentle aspen]

I don’t care if kind has multiple meanings

[limpid summit]

The meaning of kind that you reference does not make sense in context

[gentle aspen]

the way the term is used is a singular definition

[whole holly]

she has same characters and nature as Pale Beings

[whole holly]

how can you assert that? what is basis?

[gentle aspen]

Reading comprehension

[whole holly]

it does, entire game is about her overcoming her characteristics and nature

[whole holly]

that's heavily biased statement

[limpid summit]

That’s not how it’s used in grammar

[gentle aspen]

that’s not a matter of bias that is just what it is

[limpid summit]

You’re reading the definition without example sentences

[gentle aspen]

comprehending what the word means in context to the sentence is reading comprehension

That is the basis

[whole holly]

i refute that because lack of evidence

[gentle aspen]

I don’t care

[whole holly]

i am comprehending it in context of entire game

[gentle aspen]

if you read the word and the sentence it is used in it has the meaning of assigning her to the same group

[limpid summit]

The context of the game is that she is a pale creature who is the child of a pale being and treats herself as a pale being

[gentle aspen]

Well

no

[blissful harbor]

two pale beings

herrah is pale???

[limpid summit]

Coming up with a “being that is pale” category is needlessly complicated because TC has obviously already extended the definition of pale being and treats Hornet as one

[gentle aspen]

herrah isn’t a pale being she’s made in the image of one

[limpid summit]

Sorry I had THK on the brain

It’s just one

[blissful harbor]

are weavers even made in granny silks image
seems she just made a spider species to me

no offense to her but she does not give off spider outside her grab attack

[gentle aspen]

they have her abilities

and they became more humanoid

made in her image

[blissful harbor]

true actually didnt think about thst

[whole holly]

again it fits perfectly if we interpret at her sharing nature as one, because her being Pale Being puts whole category in questions, as she descends from Herrah the Beast as well, so i assume she also inherited regular bug physiology

[limpid summit]

Nika can you use kind in another sentence meaning the same thing

[gentle aspen]

also I personally believe their inability to sire children without great difficulty is also a result of this + their pharlid bodies not being properly morphed

[gentle aspen]

it doesn’t put the category into question lmao

you asserted it’s only used for higher beings when it isn’t

[limpid summit]

They can make hella weaverlings though

[gentle aspen]

that’s on you mate

[limpid summit]

GMS probably had a good laugh at that one

[whole holly]

it is, but Pale Beings can have their children inherit her nature as well

[shy sorrel]

||is lace a spider?||

[gentle aspen]

“It is”
It quite literally isn’t

[limpid summit]

She’s a being made of silk

[gentle aspen]

No

[whole holly]

is Everbloom a Pale Being, since Pale Beings don't have to be Higher Being

[limpid summit]

Hmm

[gentle aspen]

this is an insane strawman

[limpid summit]

Yes

[shy sorrel]

What then

[blissful harbor]

she’s just silk

[gentle aspen]

Have you finished playing the game

[blissful harbor]

like entirely silk

[shy sorrel]

Yeah

[whole holly]

not a substantive argument

[gentle aspen]

her dialogue says she’s silk spun to act like a child

[shy sorrel]

bro what

so shes not real?

[whole holly]

and Valid question as it fits the definition

[blissful harbor]

she’s like the weaverlings from weaversong from the first game

[limpid summit]

She was not conventionally nor no

[gentle aspen]

Hornet’s dialogue explicitly notes her being same as one

[blissful harbor]

hornet has a whole convo with her about how she is

[gentle aspen]

well half the point is that her life is real and has meaning but sure

[limpid summit]

Nika can you use “kind” in a sentence where it means the same as what you assert it means for Hornet here

[shy sorrel]

okay

[limpid summit]

If not saying “I’m a pale being and these are what they do to people I’m sorry”

[whole holly]

i already said i am using another definition, as it fits more