sk-lore

[whole holly]

Crust King Khann ring any bells?

[twin dragon]

Mb bro the bell benches have to open a gate to another reality

[viscid ridge]

No she isn't? Styx and huntress have a kinda similar face, but it ends at that

[twin dragon]

for me to fight a boss gauntlet with 67 groals

[viscid ridge]

Styx mask is also not his real face so that completely cuts him and huntress off from one another

[kindred ingot]

song is just as important as silk
song keeps GMS asleep
song opens the elevator to the Cradle
song is used to enter memories
song is used to open the Grand Gate
song helps us find the exit of the Mist
song from Karmelita used to protect the Skarr
song (<- to keep the pattern) literally the Bellways
song is the sole reason for the entire Citadel to exist

[whole holly]

are their attacks song based? what does ther song do? as well as for vaultkeeper that worldbuilding not game play

[light mauve]

Styx’s mask isn’t his real one

[twin dragon]

I mean you can hear the song n shit thats very tuff

[light mauve]

We cannot identify his species

[twin dragon]

maestros probably control cogflies with it BUT idk

im makiing it up

[whole holly]

lame ahh song

[kindred ingot]

wdym?

[whole holly]

still not as important as silk

[kindred ingot]

they also have a similar body

[viscid ridge]

I mean in the world song is very prevalent, but in terms of gameplay not so much. Not as much as the dreamnail was in hk

[twin dragon]

Yes kinda

true

[kindred ingot]

it's just as important as silk, it's literally half the game and plays a role just as big as silk, you just ignore it cuz you can't see song on your screen

[viscid ridge]

They do not 😅

[twin dragon]

But dreams in hk gameplay wise

are reduced to a single dimention

and free soul and shit

[twin dragon]

and a ctrl c ctrl v boss

a few of them

[tawdry flare]

Oh. Huh. Found a video of his secret room. Weird

[viscid ridge]

What about them is similar apart from their masks? (Which also look different from one another)

[kindred ingot]

their body
just look at it

the only thing different is that Styx isn't wearing a cape

[viscid ridge]

Their bodies look nothing alike wdym?

[kindred ingot]

are you blind or am I hallucinating?

also this is in the wiki

they also share a speech pattern

[viscid ridge]

Huntress doesn't have the neck thing, she doesn't have the same amount of legs, and that those segmentation on styx you say is similar is literally his elytra

[light mauve]

He changes masks because he is searching for a purpose.

[viscid ridge]

I personally dont like to disagree with the wiki but thats straight up wrong

[light mauve]

Ok no those 2 are different. 1 is wings and 2 is the body

[kindred ingot]

do YOU have a source to back it up?

[light mauve]

Do they

[whole holly]

Silk is used for Spells, Song isn't from Gameplay perspective, it doesn't do as much as Silk, Void does more for god's sake

[viscid ridge]

There isn't a source thats the point 😭💀

[kindred ingot]

YES, CAN'T YOU SEE THE FUCKING THING?

[light mauve]

The what bro

[light mauve]

Ok I can say
Styx doesn’t share some relation to huntress

My statement carries the same weight as theirs

We have equal amount of evidencr

[kindred ingot]

I just showed you that they do have a source

wdym

am I hallucinating the link?

[light mauve]

And what is it

[whole holly]

In an interview, Team Cherry explained that Huntress shares some relation with Styx.[https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Styx#cite_note-6]

[light mauve]

Ok then it’s understandable

[kindred ingot]

thank you, I thought I was fucking hallucinating things cuz no one else could see the obvious fucking thing

[light mauve]

You didn’t provide any evidence?

[kindred ingot]

I LITERALLY FUCKING DID ARE YOU BLIND

[whole holly]

i wish there was as much bosses and content by Elegy of the Deep as there is by Ascended Dream Nail

[light mauve]

https://tenor.com/view/monkey-lion-thinking-ragebait-rage-bait-monkey-gif-14090242814517187668

[light mauve]

Dlcs will add some

[viscid ridge]

I read the part you were refering to that they sited, it really does seem to comnect them. I wanna take team cherrys side, but damn is there literally nothing in game that connects those 2 😭

[kindred ingot]

do you unironically look at a statement formatted like "This is a statement³" and the little number is a link and think "hm... there is no source to that"

[whole holly]

they provided you a Wiki screenshot, which included source but you could have verified that Wiki cited Source...

[kindred ingot]

the obvious design similarities??

[light mauve]

What is the content of the link

[whole holly]

yeah, that little number is source link

[light mauve]

I know

[kindred ingot]

a link to a site

[light mauve]

But what was the content of it they didn’t state

[kindred ingot]

that I also showed

and you ignored

[whole holly]

then why didn't you verify instead of saying it has no evidence

[kindred ingot]

when I show you a statement formatted like that, I assume you have enough brain power to comprehend that it has a link to a source, so I don't waste my time copying the link

[low oracle]

The wiki has stupidly wrong info though.

[viscid ridge]

By your logic the shop lady in bellhart has a connection with the fat flying bugs in far fields. You also have to remember that styx is wearing a mask, so any similarities is not concrete.

[kindred ingot]

does it? every time I checked, it was right

[low oracle]

Masks aren't defined enough for that to be an argument.

[kindred ingot]

the who has a connection with what?

[low oracle]

Boss classifications are kinda dumb for example.

[light mauve]

Because the link doesn’t work for me

[kindred ingot]

wait I'm serious I have no idea of who you're talking about

[whole holly]

then go to wiki page? i was confusing at first and needed loading but if you can't verify why do you say it is wrong?

[light mauve]

Because they couldn’t either?

[viscid ridge]

By your logic

[light mauve]

Absolutely

[kindred ingot]

they... don't look alike at all. the mask is slightly similar, but that's it

[whole holly]

that's not valid reason to refute it, if you know it exists

[kindred ingot]

and comparing that with my argument is arguing in bad faith

[light mauve]

Also by that logic zote is a vessel

[light mauve]

I do not?

I do not know the contents of that link and the opponent is refusing to state them

[kindred ingot]

Zote is a joke character that should not be considered standard in any case whatsoever

[light mauve]

So zote isn’t canon by your logic?

[whole holly]

you had knowledge that source existed... regardless if opponent or you could view contents or verify... and still refuted it, that's not valid

[kindred ingot]

NO THATS NOT WHAT I FUCKING SAID AND YOU KNOW IT

[viscid ridge]

Woah i wonder if there are other 2 characters who fit this exact description 🤣

[light mauve]

???

[whole holly]

Team Cherry stated they were related...?

[kindred ingot]

okay I can clearly see that I'm not being taken seriously even if I have literal sources to back up my claims, I'll leave this conversation

[whole holly]

unlike for other example

[low oracle]

There are literally no similarities that can be applied in an argument.

[low oracle]

Slightly similar mask
Are you fucking stupid? That's basically the exact same mask.

[viscid ridge]

I know, but im talking about in game similarities. Apart from that interview, im not sure there is anything in game that connects them apart from having similar faces.

[kindred ingot]

THANK YOU

[whole holly]

what are you confused about?

[viscid ridge]

Then these are basically the exact same mask

[whole holly]

isn't their interview enough? other connections are substantiated by that interview statement

[kindred ingot]

not they fucking aren't and you know it

[low oracle]

-not the same color
-different nostrils
-different eyes
-different mask/head shapes

Stop being stupidly wrong and find an argument you can use.

[viscid ridge]

I know im not doubting them, im just saying as of now, there isn't anything in game. Hopefully we'll get more clarification in future updates.

[whole holly]

their body is vastly different and that isn't case for Huntress and Styx

[whole holly]

i mean don't you think that Huntress's possible mate could have been Styx?

[kindred ingot]

TC: "we made two characters and they ended up very closely related"
almost everyone here for no reason: "those two characters have nothing in common and if you think they do you're as stupid as someone who thinks Zote is a vessel"

[low oracle]

MEANWHILE:
-Same eyes
-Same nostrils
-different horn shapes, though the same overall shape and identical direction

One is a coincidence. The other is intended. You can guess which is which. I hope you don't disappoint further though.

[viscid ridge]

-different nostrils
-different eyes
-different mask/head shapes

[whole holly]

lol, yeah

[low oracle]

YOU ARE JUST MAKING STUFF UP
-nostrils ARE LITERALLY THE EXACT SAME
-the eyes are just of slightly different size
-yes, of course the exact shape is different dumbass. It is the overall form that counts. Vessels have different head shapes, and they are related.

If you bring Zote into this, just fuck off at that point.

[kindred ingot]

-same nostrils idk what you're talking about
-one has bigger eyes, that is true
-if you're trying to argue that their masks are totally different cuz of a few minimal differences, you should also argue that those two's masks have nothing in common

[low oracle]

Kinda random from this idiotic discussion, but I saw some cool speculation that broken vessel had both horns. Idk which I like more though

Actually, I definitely prefer the one-sided version.

[kindred ingot]

doesn't its ghost have only one (two?) horn?

[low oracle]

You mean they uniquely grew in that direction? Possible, but we don't have enough siblings for that. I agree though.

[kindred ingot]

https://cdn.wikimg.net/en/hkwiki/images/9/9d/Lost-Kin.png

[viscid ridge]

Im just stating that all the points you make to write off the connection between one set of characters, you completely ignore it even though the same can be saif of styx and huntress. And bruh i didn't even mention zote once so calm down damn 🤣

[low oracle]

A, forgot about that. Like this the most though, it's really sad we didn't get to see the shade.

[viscid ridge]

We see how he looks like, he has a short horn on the left side.

[kindred ingot]

it

vessels are genderless

[low oracle]

Look at how fast you came to tell me that. So fast, you couldn't even refer to it properly.

[viscid ridge]

Thats true, you actually make a better argument than the other guy, who just screams and think he is making a point.

[low oracle]

Totally not the exact same things I said.... @viscid ridge

[viscid ridge]

Damn man did that one little sentance make you angry? Theres something outside i think you should touch

[lyric rose]

Also the enemy one doesn’t have hands

[whole holly]

okay stop, this is not supposed to be toxic

[low oracle]

I find it amusing actually. You were to busy trying to correct me, you didn't even realize what I said.

[viscid ridge]

Exactly 👆

[viscid ridge]

I bet you do

[kindred ingot]

tbf, you did say it more aggressively

[light mauve]

Your statement makes no sense

[low oracle]

True, but he was just ragebaiting. At least I hope he was, no way you could actually seriously state that.

[whole holly]

is this better?:
You claimed to know that the source didn't exist even though neither you nor your opponent could view or verify its contents, and then you dismissed it. That argument isn’t valid.

from now on let's try to be respectful

[low oracle]

All right, I'll be.

[kindred ingot]

me too

(which more anger than the entire rest of the week combined) I'll calm down

[viscid ridge]

Dw the lore channel does that to a mf

[whole holly]

i appreciate that guys, let's talk about different subject, is anyone interested in any subject in particular

[kindred ingot]

"now I'll go to Discord to calm down and talk about the game I love!"
20 minutes later: "NO, THE VICIOUS CARANID IS NOT RELATED TO THE PILGRIM AT BELLHART AND THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH STYX"

[low oracle]

IT ISN'T CALLED A CARANID
/j

[kindred ingot]

it is thou

[stray fog]

W Nika

[whole holly]

thanks, on unrelated note i like pfp change, Delicate Flower is symbolic

[stray fog]

Thank you

People said that they always thought my previous pfp was a duck 😭

It was the hornet basketball meme

[viscid ridge]

Lowkey the most peaceful this server has been, we should make a plaque commemorating the occasion 🤣

[whole holly]

i never mistook it for that, i though it was a pheasant

[stray fog]

Lmao

[stray fog]

Peaceful lore channel >>>

[whole holly]

i have hypothesis about Everbloom, everyone

[viscid ridge]

The dunking pfp was iconic

[low oracle]

I have new info on the memorium, a topic we discussed previously (longer ago).

Verdania couldn't be sustained, yet somehow breached containment.
The answer lies in the green-red spikes. They actually come from Verdania, before I had assumed they came from the moss grotto. However on another plathrough, I noticed they were the same.
Anyways, the spikes likely took up all the nurtients and what not, hence not allowing the other plantlife to sustain itself. That then lead up the food chain, killing the entire containment. The only thing remaining are the red-green spikes, still flourishing to this day, likely also sustained by parts of the moss grotto containment.

[whole holly]

we know how Vegetation and Plant-life are created by Higher Beings and Seeds(Nyleth Species) i have been thinking that Everbloom's source is Pale Being that is also belongs to Nyleth's species

[stray fog]

Delicate flowers are the first light

So if there is a creator, that creator isn't pale

[light mauve]

I didn’t claim that it didn’t exist, I ignored it because he didn’t elaborate but he started swearing and cussing

[low oracle]

Please just end the discussion, nobody gives a fuck, nor does anybody benefit here.

[viscid ridge]

I personally doubt its the same species as nyleth, maybe something more like white lady, but i see the connection with zemir being a sort of flower type bug

[whole holly]

my grounds are that vegetation is always created by Dream-connected higher beings, Pale Beings don't have that power that is related to essence-based or organic plant-life, not that we know of...

[kindred ingot]

yeah i did that mb

[stray fog]

Zemer is a flower type bug?

[viscid ridge]

People think so, she kinda looks like a flower, but its not concretely stated

[whole holly]

i couldn't help but notice parallels in Nyleth's flowers to Everbloom, White Lady doesn't accomplish anything resembling that

[viscid ridge]

But if the everbloom originates from a higher being, its probably one of the most powerful forces in the world

[whole holly]

maybe they are? First Light could still be connected to Pale Being creator, we just don't know how? but i admit that is flaw of my speculation

[whole holly]

you made counterclaim with no evidence and said it had just as much evidence... that's basically refuting evidence in front of you, but that's in past anyways

[stray fog]

You might be onto something here
Im still not sure though

[whole holly]

her Body shape is unique, weirdly pale too...

[low oracle]

Not necessarily though. The fungal wastes, moss grotto, Verdania, Coral Gorge, Shellwood, Mount Fay, Far Fields, Bilewater pre-bile, Sinners Road pre-citadel aren't confirmed to be of such.

Personally I believe that a Higher Being's power lasts eternal, hence Higher Beungs last eternal. GMS can't be destroyed. Only passed on, which is the Weaver Queen ending. The Void absorbs Higher Beings, eliminating the possibility of them pass down their powers, to anyone else than the void.

So all life was likely created at some point, now however the creator isn't present anymore.

[stray fog]

The game calls her "grey"

[whole holly]

Grey Mourner, true i get that too, she might be greyed by age like Phantom is? i guess

[stray fog]

Who knows
This part is too speculative to know for sure

[whole holly]

sure but Plant-life like Flowers are always connected to beings Everbloom is unconfirmed exception at the moment, Lifeblood Flowers as well as White Roses are by creators

[whole holly]

i agree, but she is mourning loss of her lover, it has to affect her somehow

[whole holly]

and Great Knights seems to have been White/Pale in past, at least Dung Defender

[stray fog]

White defender was not actually pale. so I think even if grey Mourner was white in the past, it could be an aesthetic choice, rather than actual pale nature

[whole holly]

i don't think Flowers being First Light eliminates possibility that they where created by Pale Being

[whole holly]

true, i don't think she has Pale Nature either

[low oracle]

Steel Soul has given me some thought.
The steel masters are void it seems, perfectly focused at that. Godseekers want a Higher Being to worship, and want to be punished by the Shade Lord. "Punishment" is something that is also done by the steel masters to traitors of their faction.

So there are very specific relations:
Steel Masters -[related]- Void -[opposes]- Higher Beings -[relatied]- Steel Masters

I have a very rough idea of what might be the case with the steel faction, the higher beings and the void.

[stray fog]

Steel city mentioned ‼️ ‼️ ‼️

[low oracle]

I didn't mention it yet.

[stray fog]

Yak theorized that the steel masters are the maintainers of this world

black = void
White = pale
Grey = steel

[whole holly]

that's interesting, Steel Hearts might serve as Godseeker's to attune to Lord of Shades/Void Given Focus, and help us with Pantheon of Pharloom to attune i guess

[low oracle]

That doesn't make sense though, generally. Also, I forgot to include Shamans, they are also part of the discussion.

[whole holly]

Steel Masters are like Knight, complete like them...

[stray fog]

I thought you were also heading towards the steel = maintainers theory

[low oracle]

Are Jinn and Zi masters or what were they called?

[whole holly]

Ancient Civilization as well

[low oracle]

Nope, that seems unlikely.

[stray fog]

Not masters

[whole holly]

they are Steel Hearts, i think

[low oracle]

Thanks.

This will take a while btw, prepare for me to once again reach the discord word limit.

[whole holly]

although if Shellwood vegetation is simply part of Nyleth, Pale version of her Species would also be First Light along with Everbloom's so it could make sense, maybe she is first pale being?

[stray fog]

What exactly would jinn's role be in the steel civilization?
We know about the other 3 steel people, but not jinn

[stray fog]

A creator of delicate flowers has got to be a god.
If everblooms were a part of it like you theorize, then there would be godliness in them.
But the godseeker says that she doesn't sense any godliness in a delicate flower

[whole holly]

yeah, that could be reason as why Everbloom has no godly resonance(which seems to be because even they are plucked from Pale Seed and brought to distant land)

[whole holly]

Jinn, little know... cannot tell of self. Too young, its thought, its mind. Born to provide, to trade.

[stray fog]

Born to trade

🤔

Doesn't she only buy rancid eggs though

[low oracle]

So here is what I think:
Higher Beings are generally just doing their own thing, mostly acts of being worshipped. They are not worried, neither do they feel threatened. Certain Higher Beings however have much more going for them than simple worship. The Radiance and The Pale King opposed each other, though that doesn't seem to be the necessary way it goes. Higher Beings can absolutely live in peice (grammar error ik), so there is no influence preventing that.
However there is the void. It is a raging force at the core of the world. However it can be contained, used even. The Shade Lord is a terrifying achievement, even if it was an accident the Pale King didn't expect. On the topic of void, the Pale King doesn't actually need the flowers to keep the void at bay. His own light was already enough, especially amplified through the lighthouse.
Another thing is soul and essence. And Godseekers. Godseekers require Higher beings they can worship, they just want to do that. But they also have the power of essence, transporting a realm of possibilities inside a single bug of their species. They are also a hivemind, again a property shared by Higher Beings.
But are they related to the steel faction? Steel Assasin Sharpe seems to be a creature of void, with an armor of steel. Kingsmoulds are designed by the same concept, though obviously less powerful and moreso created for their specific purpose.
Bell Hermit also calls Hornet, himself, and everyone else a slave. That isn't necessarily a connection to the steel folk, were it not for the shamans fixation on void.
Personally I believe that shamans are made of void, but not actually originate from the abyss. Instead they were brought to existence by someone. They also use soul without problems, something a common bug is incapable of. WORD LIMIT REACHED

[whole holly]

Shamans don't actually have void-related powers, their soul powers are part of their physiology, they are fixated on void power that is foreign to them, Weavers use Soul as Silk despite not being Void, but who knows how team cherry will explain Shamans as species

[whole holly]

i am also sure that Shellwood is referred to as serene as well, serene lands could be another lands that has Seed Pale Being

[low oracle]

Vassals and Steel Hearts.
Each Steel Heart has a Vassal that can summon the void. Using that power against the masters isn't something they appreciate, hence the Vassal of Zi gets hunted down. Interestingly though, not just any void can be summoned. It is seemingly just 'regrets' being summoned, as seen by the shade which is referred to as such, and the pile of corpses likely causing 'regret'.
I really am not coming to actual conclusions yet, but am drawing connections we can go off of.
One big question is, do the Godseekers and the Steel Hearts know of each other? I assume the steel hearts do, while the godseekers do/don't. Here are the two possibilities:
The know of the steels, hence they want a strong HB to worship. That HB is their champion, their saviour. Higher Beings and void can definitely oppose the steels, even if it isn't clear to which end that may lead. Point is though, that would make pretty much sense.

If they don't know, I can't really elaborate anything.

We sadly don't ever see a Higher Being interact with the Steels, as the Knight doesn't do so as the Shade Lord, and Hornet doesn't as the Weaver Queen ending.
WORD LIMIT NOT REACHED, JUST SENDING THIS TO REFRESH.

[low oracle]

Their animations very subtly hint at them being void, and Bell Hermit's face looks to me like it's void melting. "Our powers all soul" sounds like specifically the spells to me.

[stray fog]

Ill ping myself and mark it as unread so that I remember to read this in the morning @stray fog

[low oracle]

Okay, thanks!

[whole holly]

yeah, but it could be their black sluggish body

[low oracle]

The ancient civilisations of both kingdoms worshipped the void, much like the steels seem to do. However the void opposes Higher Beings, so what does that mean exactly? Firstly, we don't know wether all ancient bugs where as gigantic as the ones we see are. We also aren't informed of the time periods they are from. The Queens Gardens one probably is just a sabage beast, worshipping nothing but their next meal.
'Here us scream' This dialogue comes up in two dreamnails if my memory serves me correctly. The abyss shriek room and the shaman with the howling wraiths. The room also looks fairly similar to vessel fragments, which are probably ancient. They are used to store soul, so the ancient civilisation definitely had their uses for it. Soul totems are found in in two ways; made by the ancient civilisation, and made by the Pale King. I wouldn't put it out of the question that there was another Higher Being before, but it doesn't seem likely to me.
All in all, Hollow Knight lore is a thread spun in three dimensions. Every piece of lore connects to more information, that is very little information at the same time. We know all this stuff, yet can't truly know how it puzzles together.
I'm not sure at the moment and have only a vague idea of a theory (to answer: Relation between the Steel Masters, Higher Beings, The Void, Shamans and Godseekers.), so I'll stop now. Maybe you can add more info and speculation.

[whole holly]

they are connected to forces such as Void, Essence and Soul, those forces and hence groups interact uniquely with each other

[low oracle]

Most topics that tie into this are:
-Higher Beings
-Steel Faction
-Godseekers
-Ancient Civilisation
-Snail Shamans
-Soul powers
-Void
-Mask Makers
-Essence
-Higher Beings in their prime state outside of godhome (lack of examples, only NKG).
-The Shade Lord
-Rancid Eggs
-Vassals, Steel Seer's, Steel Hearts and Steel Assasin Sharpe

I forgot:
-Lord Fool and the Collosseum
-Kingdoms and Wyrms
-The scale of bugs compared to the scale of their overall power

[low oracle]

The ancient nailsmith made massive nails, that bugs double the size of the Pure Vessel would have used. Those bugs would still be smaller than the actual nailsmith, which begs the question; Where they all that big? No. They couldn't have been, or there would be much more corpses.

I have to go now, but it was fun writing all this. I'll see to be back soon, though I can't make promises I can't keep. Bye!

[limpid summit]

Sharpe may not be voi

He may be

But the proboscis doesn’t look like a tendril

And his official art is glossy

Unless it’s just his face

[light mauve]

Tell that to him

[twin dragon]

He's a bug

[frosty gate]

What are we arguing today for?

[gentle aspen]

why my wife left me

[low oracle]

Void is glossy btw. And normal bugs shouldn't shift their shape like that, and shouldn't even be in the steel faction. You can't deny the obvious conclusion that he is more likely void than not.
And it does look like a tendril in action, this is just the art. Besides, it looks like it, it isn't identical.

[frosty gate]

You are a AO3 writer, must you really ask that question?

[low oracle]

In your profile you have a Zelda fanfiction listed, hinting at you being a zelda fan. Now I don't know which game you like most, but I would assume it has to be Twilight Princess, Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker, Skyward Sword or Breath of the Wild. Tears of the Kingdom and Majoras mask are also possibilities, though they are less likely.
Additionally you also have an anime profile picutre, though I don't know which anime so I'll just ignore that.
While you are part of the mod team, I rarely see you, so you probably aren't online much, or not in the same time zone. However the latter isn't as likely, since I have a fucked up sleep schedule.
Now to the possible reasons why:
-Skyward Sword:
You have red hair and are very desperate.
-Twilight Princess:
Idk, you are a zelda fan
-Ocarina of Time:
You were to noisy smashing all the plates and mugs
-Wind Waker:
You are a literal child
-Breath of the Wild:
She needed a breath of fresh air

How is my Silksong mod theory?

[gentle aspen]

very cool
also not an anime pfp

just artwork

[low oracle]

Alright, crossed it out.

[limpid summit]

Void isn’t glossy

It’s liquid why would it be glossy

[visual glacier]

Yeah I agree

[limpid summit]

Void Heart is a bit glossy but that’s a physical object that void melded with

It’s not void

[visual glacier]

Same for void idols

[low oracle]

Do you know what physical means?

[visual glacier]

Shade promotional art isn’t glossy

[visual glacier]

They meant solid probably

[low oracle]

Void appears in all forms, gas, solid and liquid. The Collector for example.

[low oracle]

Shade isn't the same.

[visual glacier]

Yeah but still

Voidheart isn’t pure void

[vivid kernel]

He reminds me of Tiso

[low oracle]

It is...
It is literally the Heart of the Void.

[visual glacier]

What

It’s just a name dude

[low oracle]

And the name means nothing or what?

[visual glacier]

Hiveblood isn’t actual blood

[low oracle]

Hiveblood gives you literal hiveblood. You become of the hive and gain its regenerative abilities. The bees, even though infected, become passive.

Are you gonna say next that Lifeblood isn't actual life-blood?

[visual glacier]

There’s nothing calling void heart the heart of the void

And if it was then who says it’s made completely of void

All I’m saying is that it’s not canon so it’s not canon

Voidheart looks a lot like void idols which are confirmed to be a different material from void

[low oracle]

When is it confirmed?

[visual glacier]

It wouldn’t make sense for something made of solid void to be stated to contain void in a transparent compartment we can see on the sprite

[low oracle]

Solid void containing liquid void. Not the case for void idols probably, but Voidheart definitely.

[visual glacier]

No proof so I’m out

[low oracle]

No proof so I'm out. You haven't said anything against it.

[visual glacier]

Lack of evidence is evidence to the contrary

Stop pinging me

[low oracle]

Speculation:
Void is attracted to soul, and can occur in all states of matter. The soul totems are (at least) partially void, and release the soul they've attracted due to not being strong enough to hold it.
The black egg is seemingly also made of void, which makes sense, as it's attracting properties would make the sealing of the Radiance far more effective.

The voidheart is pure void, due to being the Kingsoul (Pale Being properties) turned to void. The Knight's pale shell is shattered, revealing the void beneath it. The Voidheart is also much less a charm than a status. The Knight themselves are the void heart, the heart of the Shade Lord, of the void united.

I won't ping you, but don't tell me I haven't argued.

Or pinin you if you will

[visual glacier]

Void being attracted to soul isn’t speculation btw

Idk if you knew

[low oracle]

I knew, I based my speculation off of it.

But the soul totems seemingly gather soul on their own, so I wouldn't put it out of the question that they do so using void.

[limpid summit]

Pretty sure the black egg itself isn’t made of void

It’s non Euclidean so it might have some weird void on the inside

But it’s the same consistency as the arcane eggs

AC stuff isn’t entirely void

[low oracle]

The black egg dissolves in void particles.

What's AC?

[limpid summit]

Ancient civilization

[limpid summit]

Void is attracted to soul yes but it doesn’t accumulate it passively

Crystals do but I don’t think the totems have crystals inside them

[visual glacier]

Otherwise shade would have a ton of soul

Just from being inside a being with a soul

[gentle aspen]

so does godseeker

[lime osprey]

The godseeker body got dispelled by the everbloom, the black egg presumably got consumed by void

Kinda different things

[gentle aspen]

that’s a single variant of the same ending

[low oracle]

No, she has void tendrils lashing out of her, and liquid void filling her shell from inside.

[gentle aspen]

void tendrils come from liquid void

[low oracle]

Crystals are connected to the Radiance too.

[low oracle]

So?

[gentle aspen]

you are correcting me on something that doesn’t need correction

[low oracle]

She doesn't dissolve in void particles, didn't you say that?
Either way, I've got to go now, bye!

[gentle aspen]

you directly said she isn’t filled with liquid void on the inside when the ending shows her shell leaking liquid void

[lime osprey]

Has anyone done a “the babe weavers we see in deepnest were created with aid from a HB (specifically WL)” theory yet? It’s almost certainly untrue but it connects two unanswered questions about the first game: what happened to the WL’s non-vessel children? And how did the weavers reproduce considering what Hornet says in Silksong?

This is probably not the case tho considering i doubt they’d be as susceptible to the infection if they were, there’s no proof the weavers ever interacted with another HB besides the PK, the weaver babes share no resemblance with anything else but arachnids and so on

[gentle aspen]

WL didn’t have non vessel children as far as we know

and little weavers are just a remnant from a time where a birth curse wasn’t a thing

It’s not impossible, just very difficult for them to have kids

[lime osprey]

First point is true, but it is odd considering she’s a fertility god that she only reproduced once despite the urge to do so presumably being there prior to the vessels and her binding herself.

To the second point, was there ever any proof that it was a curse and not just an intentionally designed aspect of their anatomy?

And yes, it was never stated it was impossible, which is more to why your second point is probably inaccurate

[gentle aspen]

well she can create plant life
being a curse and being intentionally designed aren’t mutually exclusive

I just use the term curse for the sake of ease

[lime osprey]

I’m more saying, it is something the weavers always had, not something that fell upon them or went away

[gentle aspen]

oh no I meant writing wise

[lime osprey]

Ah yeah most definitely

[gentle aspen]

it’s a change from the first game to the second by the dev’s part

[lime osprey]

But that still leaves it in mystery no? It’s not like the children are obscure enough to retcon it, they are the primary enemies in a major part of the map

Also has WL ever been seen to create plan life and not just fertilize preexisting flora? The plantlife in the queens gardens were there before her, her presence probably altered how they grew, but she wasn’t the progenitor

And there’s no proof that she grew the plants in the White Palace either, though it would explain its pale tint

Closest thing to confirmation that she can grow plants is when she tells the knight the everbloom isn’t “of her,” implying there could be a flower/plant she could create

But that’s hardly concrete

[graceful grail]

When??

[graceful grail]

Yeah, you also dont get any soul from striking a shade in HK, implying that they dont store it.

The reason TK can is probably because of their Shell.

[visual glacier]

Maybe dream no more?

[lime osprey]

Yes, we see what happens when soul and void are forced together, it’s chaotic and unstable, a shade is neither of those

What is more interesting is whether shades contain essence

Actually yeah they almost certainly do, considering the collector has essence

So that means Essence is a part of soul and not the other way around

Which means the PK and/or the WL can turn essence into soul seeing as their kids can

[violet vortex]

what does shaw, adino, tegale, and garama mean?

[sinful nimbus]

Obscenities

[glacial warren]

Possibly Weaver or Hive warcries.

[craggy smelt]

"Death to all flies!"

[violet vortex]

😭

[limpid summit]

Garama is a taunt

That’s all we know

[crystal marsh]

a shade is pure Void and yes they contain some amount of essence

[craggy smelt]

They show no sign of it, as unlike the Collector, dreamnailing a Shade instantly subdues it while giving no dreamnail dialogue or Soul
they are also suppressed by the Void Heart, while the Collector is not (ditto for constructs like the Kingsoul etc.)

If a Shade ever had Essence as a vessel, that Essence was likely left behind on its shell/corpse when it 'died', as we see with the Broken Vessel having lingering Essence that takes the form of a vessel/pale child.

[craggy smelt]

Possibly even the reason these higher beings have so much Soul is because they also have tremendous Essence to draw upon to make into Soul.
Radiance and Unn created entire races from their dreams, which would be Essence becoming Soul (dreams becoming life)

[crystal marsh]

absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence

[limpid summit]

They speak English in what

[shell magnet]

But it's evidence of absence? If a shade is subdued by dream nailing it then that means there's no dreams/essence?

[craggy smelt]

It is when you would expect to see it were it actually there

[snow sandal]

hiya lore fiends

[edgy nebula]

hello user blazvem

[shell magnet]

There is no friendship in lore channel

Kill or be killed

[lime osprey]

Maybe, but the collectors existence proves that either void and soul can coexist stably together without a shell (if essence inherently contains soul), or that essence does not inherently contain soul

[lime osprey]

I think it’s the other way around for pale higher beings, they wield essence by extracting it from/using it with soul.

[craggy smelt]

I'm inclined to think that it's not that Essence necessaily contains Soul, but can become Soul
one transforming into the other

there are a couple of cases like this - Unn and Rad's creation of entire living races from their dreams
and charms born from dreams, little pieces of magic that can have all kinds of effects

[lime osprey]

Yes, i think it is impossible for essence to contain soul as the collector exists. However, idk if essence can become soul naturally or if it can only simply generate it. As in, a being of essence or created from essence will begin to generate soul.

The pale beings then, would be the exception, as they can turn essence into soul directly

But i do believe it evident it is the other way around: soul inherently contains essence

[prime mantle]

faydown theory

the reason faydown is a blessing isn't just because fayforn gave her down to hornet, it's because she blessed her with the ability to duplicate it

in hornet's presence, one feather can become two

she inlays her cloak with the feathers and uses her blessing to jump in the air, which creates a bunch of down and sprays it around the air, but thanks to the inlay she can just do it again when she recovers through a landing, pogo, etc

that's what makes faydown special, the blessing to make more

[craggy smelt]

I definitely think that living beings, beings with Soul, contain Essence
there is a close connection between Soul and Essence certainly

in the case of higher beings, Unn and Radiance creating entire races out of their dreams is basically creating Soul from Essence - they became physical beings with bodies that have Soul, as well as minds that have Essence

if you create a living being, its mind will begin to produce its own Essence/thoughts/dreams/etc.

[granite grove]

I just watched a mossbag video bc I don’t know much abt hk lore and he mentioned the seer turning into a lumafly. Since silk is made of soul, are silk flies and lumaflies the same thing?

[muted lantern]

probably not. Silkflies are very unique in their creation.

I have my own theories for why she turns into a lumafly but thats speculation

[granite grove]

When the seer dissapears she also leaves an explosion of essence so could dreams be involved in the creation of silkflies?

[granite grove]

How are luma flies created

[muted lantern]

we don't know, they could just be a regular firefly type bug, we arent really told about any magical nature to them iirc. Its possible they are similar to silkflies in they are made from the souls of other bugs, but they are a different type of being from silkflies. My personal theory is that seer becomes a lumafly because the moths are lumaflies evolved by the radiance into her children. similar to how the weavers are pharlids evolved by grand mother silk to be her children. And seer just returns to her original form after making peace with her peoples history. but thats just my own speculation. We don't really know much at all about lumaflies.

unless im forgetting some lumafly lore from the first game.

[granite grove]

So the seer helps the knight bc she’s feels guilty abt the infection

[muted lantern]

i recall she references some sins long past. but i need to brush up on my specifics of the first games text.

[gilded summit]

I see people mentioning the pale king was a better leader than GMS. what proof is there of this?

[ionic basalt]

Gms wasnt a leader
She just created the weavers to eternally play song for her

[prime mantle]

lumaflies are probably the soul ver of silkflies

there are varieties that can make thunder so im guessing theyre environmentally malleable

[stray fog]

It is in line with how light (paleness) is connected to soul

Lumaflies are a light source

[forest lynx]

are silkflies just ethnic pharloom lumaflies

[wet walrus]

Was Gms a better ruler than weavers?

[ionic basalt]

Full control vs lying manipulation

[terse warren]

GMS doesn't seem to have ruled much of all

The Weavers served her but like

It wasn't a rule like what the Weavers had on the Citadel

I think Weavers are worse

[terse warren]

They are made from the souls of the dead in Whiteward, not sure if they can exist naturally

[stray fog]

There are silkflies in the karmelita memory

[terse warren]

And?

[stray fog]

I think they are naturally occurring animals, and white ward surgeons figured out how to transform pilgrims into silkflies

[terse warren]

Karmelita is NOT from before GMS if that's what you're implying

[stray fog]

Whiteward still takes place very late in the timeline

After Weavers

[terse warren]

Actually not necessarily

Though I'm unsure

We had a whole discussion about that a while ago

It could also be during Weavers

And anyways Karmelita is quite recent

Especially compared to Whiteward

Since Whiteward is GENERATIONS old

[stray fog]

Alright

[terse warren]

Enough to make silk genetic

[stray fog]

Do the skarrs in karmelita's arena have strings?

During needolin

If they do, then we have strong evidence that you're right

[forest lynx]

what abt the ones in miss grotto

those could be natural

[terse warren]

They were used as light sources so if any lamp broke they could've gotten out

[terse warren]

No clue but it was never stated nor implied that Karmelita was older than Weavers

Like, out of the 4 Hearts the only one that's actually that old is Nyleth

Others are descendants which is stated

The way the game implies it, it sounds like they all are descendants but Nyleth can't be so

[whole holly]

we don't even get Silkfly hunter's journal

[dreamy onyx]

The timeline is fuzzy, I don't think there's any concrete evidence that she was born after the Citadel was passed down to the Conductors

Or I suppose specifically after Whiteward began being used for experimentation

[low oracle]

The natural ones are not silkflies, they're other white coloured bugs. In total there are:

Lumaflies—Charge electricity when grouped together, emit light, potential of being infected, produce strong light

Silkfly—Pilgrim soul turned to a silkfly, used for light, to control/power automatons, and have the potential of breaking spells. They are also affected by the needolin, and can actively try to help, and can embody a will or personality.

Kingfly/Royal fly—The flies swarmed around the wings in HK, they have six wings, no special properties known

Moss Grotto Fly—The exact same shape as the verdanian flying enemy (non-sapient), with a triangle shaped head, no special properties

[forest lynx]

oh ok thanks

[low oracle]

My pleasure.

[dreamy onyx]

Do silkflies and lumaflies have any distinguishing features?

It could be that Lumaflies were used before the Citadel started using Silkflies for possible religious reasons

[low oracle]

Lumaflies can group up to charge themselves with electricity, and also emit a strong light. They seem a Hallownest native, as the elctricity aspect would surely be used in Pharloom otherwise.

Silkflies look differently, with four sharp wings. They don't glow as bright, but they glow nonetheless. Silkflies also take up positions of sapient beings, such as guiding pilgrims and steering automatons. Their will isn't their own though, as they are always being manipulated to do their things. When the automatons are destroyed, the instantly flee, so they likely aren't actually intelligent.

Silkflies could also be the first Whiteward experiment ever, as the Weavers wouldn't be against it. Nothing bad comes from it, as far as they think. Basically just more pilgrims attracted to the citadel.

The Weavers would have only actually opposed the life extention experiments, as their knowledge is broad enough to see the dangers.

[dreamy onyx]

I assumed the Weavers left/died out before the Whiteward was operational

It feels a lot more reminiscent of the gilded Citadel of the Conductors rather than what the weavers built

[stray fog]

Lumaflies can get infected?

[low oracle]

Nothing contradicts that there are though. Karmelita sang because of the haunting, she wasn't around at the time as the weavers. We shouldn't assume the old hearts are of the same age, because they aren't.

Khan is ancient, already defeated at the very start of the Conductors rule, by being dried out.
Nyleth is the oldest, and has made a pact with the citadel before the haunting.
Green Prince existed in the late conductor stages, when the citadel expanded their technology, creating the putrified ducts and the exhaust organ.
Karmelita was at her prime during the haunting, when she prevented it with her song. She is probably similarly old to the Green Prince.

[stray fog]

Lumaflies are present in the wastes too

In the quirrel comic

[low oracle]

Infected Lumaflies take other the empty shells of the Watcher Knights, the same way that Lightseeds take over the empty shell of Lost Kin.

[stray fog]

Oh

[low oracle]

Then they are probably common, which makes sense. However we don't know where Pharloom is located. Different types of wastes are in between kingdoms, as seen at the start of Silksong. So the Lumaflies may only exist in that region.

[dreamy onyx]

I agree with this, even if I think it's a bit strange to have two ancient rulers with Karmelita who seems to have been much more recent

[low oracle]

It definitely is, but the spikes in the Silkfly room are the exact same as the GMS platform spikes. Therefore I conclude that the Weavers likely could have been part of the silkfly operations.
Conductors and Weavers also worked together on imprisoning First Sinner, as the cage is gilded, bearing the sigil of the citadel. However it also utilizes silken runes, which the weavers must have made.

[low oracle]

An old heart by definition is weird anyway. Green Prince is in his prime when we see him in game, apart from his partner missing. He isn't even very old or young.
Personally I believe an old heart is just the heart of a powerfull creature with a strong imprint on its land.

[dreamy onyx]

Actually you may be onto something, that section of Whiteward, looks pretty barren compared to the rest of the Citadel and even the rest of Whiteward

[dreamy onyx]

I think the Green Prince is certainly not in his prime aside from his physical health, since his entire kingdom is gone, which may or may not have been due to the Citadel going back on their promises

[heavy gyro]

Theres also gleamflies

[low oracle]

I believe it's the same as the slab, where it was just build around it afterwards (First Sinner and Slab, Silkfly room and Whiteward).

[low oracle]

Which do you mean, and can you send a picture?

[heavy gyro]

It's from the description for gleamlights (bellhome decoration): "Twine-strung globes filled with gleamflies. These'll brighten up even the darkest bell."

[low oracle]

True, he is kinda depressed to the point that his kingdom can only recover when he's at rest (dead).

[low oracle]

Is it the bellhome light at the desk?

If you cab, please send a picture. It'd really help me understand what you mean.

[dreamy onyx]

Makes me wonder if the other areas could recover as well

I think Hornet vaguely stated something about the Skarr eventually bouncing back

[heavy gyro]

I think it's possible that gleamflies is the pharloom name for lumaflies

[low oracle]

Coral Gorge—absolutely, literally just redirect the water back
Shellwood—Seemingly not, but we'll have to see
Far Fields—What did Karmelita even do with it? She just has her tribe be there, not like they actually care for the plants.

[low oracle]

True. In the picture, are those white dots supposed to be the flies?

[glacial warren]

Silkflies are, in shorthand, the souls of other Bugs, ripped out and animated by the Surgeons in Whiteward so said Bugs could keep serving the Citadel even after they died.

They’re also used to animate and serve as the cores for every Cogwork Automaton, which is why they seemed so eerily ‘lifelike’ according to Hornet. They seem this way because there’s an actual, genuine living being’s consciousness enslaved under the metal.

[low oracle]

What do you mean exactly? A bug can't work when their soul is gone, not even after death and haunting.

Silkflies are used for:
-light
-automatons being steered
-other uses, like being manipulated using the needolin

[chilly edge]

i saw smwhere phantom might be reviving is that true?

[low oracle]

Ah, that's what you meant, nevermind.

[dreamy onyx]

Shellwood seemed more impacted by the Splinters than Nyleth's slumber anyway.

Far Fields is the weak link here, I think the lowlands in general are left with a lot of questions concerning their relation to the Citadel as well as their past. My best guess is Karmelita united the Skarr and in modern day Pharloom they're disunited, so... I guess they'll be united again?

[low oracle]

Nope. She dead af.

[chilly edge]

💔

[glacial warren]

But yeah uh. From what I know of the lore, basically everything that’s wrong with the Citadel can primarily be traced back to Whiteward and the Surgeons.

[dreamy onyx]

Not really, I'd wager the Conductors were the ones actively destroying Pharloom

[glacial warren]

That’s where it all began, where it all went wrong and we learned the hard way that some parts of Bugs’ imagination are better left alone.

[low oracle]

The Skarr would be united anyway, since the haunting is gone.
Shellwood did suffer most from the Splinter folk, but it depends on how we view it. Higher Beings die with their kingdoms, but their kingdoms don't die with them. Wether or not Nyleth is a Higher Being, it just depends if that applies.

[dreamy onyx]

The Surgeons only dealt with choirbugs, I think the Conductors were the ones to pollute Bilewater and destroy the Coral Gorge and such

[low oracle]

Just the Weavers and Conductors really. The Underworks would still exist, just like everything else.

[glacial warren]

The Conductors are as much victims to the system they’re part of as anyone else. They’re just another cog in the machinery. The Whiteward created them.

[glacial warren]

That’d be Phantom’s doing.

[dreamy onyx]

Phantom is only one piece of the puzzle, there's still the waste flowing in from the ducts.

[lime osprey]

Yes, beings with soul also contain essence. However there is reason, presented in silksong, to believe that soul contains essence naturally and that that is a large component of the two’s relationship.

[low oracle]

Coral Gorge was tactically eliminated when constructing the citadel and expanding it, so that leads us to the early stages of conductor rule.

[dreamy onyx]

They weren't created by the Whiteward, they just had their life artificially extended by it.

[glacial warren]

Again, that is her doing. She’s the one who runs the Exhaust Organ. Her sole ‘job’ is to expel pollution. She’s the point of origin for all the waste the Citadel has been dumping.

[lime osprey]

And yes, while creating beings from essence which then go on to create soul themselves is technically creating soul from essence, but in a much more round about way than it is suggested pale beings do

[low oracle]

Not really. She's just filtering silk into greymoor to recycle it. The putrified ducts are completely separate, just like Bilewater.

[glacial warren]

The Conductors, unlike most Bugs in the Pharloom caste system, weren’t born and bred to fill a specific role: They were once different Bugs, but were chosen to be ‘elevated’ to their position and bear the mantle. A certain Psalm Cylinder gives us lovely insight into what this process entails.

[low oracle]

What do you mean?

[dreamy onyx]

I think the Conductors just mopped up whatever was left and really put the nail in the coffin, especially due to there being coral bugs in the Memorium, which is very recent in terms of Pharloom.

[glacial warren]

My guy it’s called the ‘Exhaust Organ’ for a reason. Why else do you think it’s stationed right next to Sinner’s Road and Bilewater, two of the most heavily polluted areas in the game? And Bilewater connects into the Ducts, don’t forget.

[dreamy onyx]

I don't think that's Mizello becoming a conductor, that cylinder calls it his last surgery. I think it was something fucked up with silk injections that went awry.

[low oracle]

The memorium isn't recent, it was built to preserve the biomes being destroyed. The Weavers only affected the newly made pilgrims, from there it just kept expanding, doing more and more harm.

[glacial warren]

The Cylinder is literally titled ‘The Last Surgery of Conductor Mizello’.

[low oracle]

Ducts polluted Bilewater and Sinners road from above. The exhaust organ exhausts what again? Smoke, not maggots and dirt. It is smoke being exhausted, which we can trace back too the Whiteward for one. Bodies get burned, the gas containing silk is filtered out the exhaust organ into greymoor.

The Underworks vents still work for example, as they are automated.

[low oracle]

Then I apparently misread. My bad.

[dreamy onyx]

I think it's recent compared to most of the Citadel, especially since 90% of the environments of are modern-day Pharloom

[glacial warren]

Incorrect. The Organ expels the Citadel’s waste. This polluted Bilewater and Sinner’s Road into the cesspools we see now. All that smog in the Underworks has to have an outlet: This is that outlet. The Ducts eventually became polluted as consequence of its proximity to Bilewater, as the smog Phantom unleashed traveled and rose upwards, as Bilewater is primarily valley-like and vertical in structure.

[low oracle]

Coral Gorge isn't, and neither is Verdania. So I wouldn't say that's the case.

[dreamy onyx]

Yeah, but the ducts are above Bilewater. The muck is pouring into Bilewater because... well, it's below the ducts.

[low oracle]

Do you know what a duct does?

[glacial warren]

Then why do the Stilkin loathe the Citadel, and not those rank tunnels? Because all the pollution comes from the Citadel, as in, the Exhaust Organ.

[low oracle]

Because all is traced back to the citadel.

And do you know what a duct is?

[glacial warren]

Enlighten me.

[dreamy onyx]

Because the muck is still from the Citadel. Also, what would they have done otherwise, curse out old pipes?

[low oracle]

The putrified ducts are the exhaust of all the scum produced by the citadel.

The exhaust organ probably does exhaust the gas state waste from the citadel, but that's it.

The wraiths are the biproduct of the Whiteward burning silk, some of which apparently also becomes part of the smog.

[dreamy onyx]

I doubt the Exhaust Organ is helping the case of the pollution, it's probably polluting Sinner's Road, but it's not responsible for the destruction of Bilewater

[low oracle]

We see what it's polluting. The mist is the part of Sinners road, affected by the pollution. That's why nobody in the mist is alive.

[glacial warren]

The Wraiths are a projection of Phantom’s will, used to collect Silk from trespassers in her acid trip of a territory.

[dreamy onyx]

They're not used to collect Silk

[glacial warren]

But the Organ is located in Bilewater. It’s part of Bilewater’s Map once you clear the Mist.

[low oracle]

The wraiths are another form of the unravelled basically.

[dreamy onyx]

They're there because she's having a shit time and it's being translated into her work lmao

[low oracle]

It's part of Sinners road map, what are you talking about?

[dreamy onyx]

Actually it is part of Bilewater

[glacial warren]

My guy. Please. For the love of god, go play Silksong. You’re so off the ball it’s almost sad.

[frosty gate]

I will rue the day I come into this chat and a person isn't telling the other to play the game

[dreamy onyx]

?? he's not even wrong

[frosty gate]

Wtf is the topic today

[glacial warren]

In the Wraith Journal entry it states, and I quote, from Hornet: “Not a Bug at all, but a projection of another’s will.”

[low oracle]

It has the Bilewater colour, but isn't part of Bilewater. Why? Common sense. It literally isn't in Bilewater.

The Wisp is technically part of greymoor too for example.

[glacial warren]

Guess who those Wraiths resemble and who is the source of the Mist? Phantom.

[dreamy onyx]

The Unravelled is the pain of bugs in the Whiteward, and the Wraiths are the pain of Phantom

[low oracle]

Yeah and?

[dreamy onyx]

Considering she was you know, abandoned and forced to work in a factory

[glacial warren]

For god’s sake man there’s literally only two dots to connect. Come on, you can do it.

[dreamy onyx]

okay zero is right here though, it's part of Bilewater, you can see it in the little connection in the top left

[low oracle]

A projection of their will means that they don't come from Phantom's silk. The silk is still from the whiteward, only it is affected by Phantom. If it were literally Phantom, she wouldn't suffer from loosing silk.

[glacial warren]

Then why do the Wraiths not linger like the Unravelled when the Mist stops and Phantom is slain? Gee it’s almost like there’s a connection here, don’t you think?

[low oracle]

I'm saying that it is part of the biome, but not part of the actual region. It isn't controlled by the stilkin, neither does it have the typical regional flora and fauna.

[low oracle]

GMS still lingers, which is what the unravelled is. GMS's rage. GMS is literally of silk, and that silk was tortured, accumulating enough to form that raging will.

[glacial warren]

Phantom is suffering from a depletion of Silk and her advanced age. The Wraiths are a power born from her, serving as essentially her agents in the field who patrol the Mist. Any trespassers are caught and any Silk siphoned so Phantom herself can feed and keep herself going.

[dreamy onyx]

The pain of the Unravelled remains, but it's form is gone. Same with the Wraiths by that logic

[low oracle]

The Wraiths are made of silk however, and Phantom literally wants to dight you.

[glacial warren]

The Unravelled is not the Grand Mother. They’re moreso a conglomeration, a hive-mind born from the Silk-snared consciousness of all those Bugs in Whiteward’s pit, having fused together into the Unravelled.

[low oracle]

The hivemind of the haunting is just GMS. THe unravelled comes from the haunting. Connect the dots perhaps.
Cause the silk doesn't come from the pilgrims, it comes from GMS.

[whole holly]

in that case neither is putrified ducts

[glacial warren]

Well if you make it to her, yes. The Wraiths are essentially a form of Phantom Casting from long range to make these animated projections, combined with her unique hallucinatory powers she infuses the Mist with.

[low oracle]

Is what? Putrified ducts was never part of Bilewater as far as we know.

[low oracle]

What hallucinary powers?

[glacial warren]

Well yes but the Unravelled isn’t her will animating it. The thing is essentially a conglomeration of Silk dregs being puppeted by the lingering wills of those tormented Bug in the pit.

[whole holly]

i didn't think it was, but pre-pollution, what was it? Salt and Stone?

[dreamy onyx]

The lake at the edge was between alt and stone, I assume the salt is Pharloom bay and the stone is the ducts

[frosty gate]

Probably

[low oracle]

Because her hivemind is different from the Radiance's. She doesn't give direct orders most of the times, rather just conveying emotions. Her rage is what makes haunted bugs aggressive, otherwise they just do what they always did.

[glacial warren]

Okay so when playing Silksong, if you go left from the Belleay entrance in Bilewater, you’ll enter this place called The Mist. The Mist has a bizarre landscape, almost dreamlike, and consists of a handful of ‘rooms’ which obey a recursive logic. Hornet must play her Needolin so groups of Silkflies will show her the correct exit to go through to progress towards the Exhaust Organ.

[low oracle]

Probably just like the pale lake.

[dreamy onyx]

I think the ducts are much older than the Citadel, but they were just used by the Citadel to dump waste into Bilewater

[low oracle]

That's just gameplay. How else do you show Hornet getting 'lost'? It can just be literal mist, you know.

[wet walrus]

Wait so gms was put to sleep while weavers created a dystopian misery?

[glacial warren]

It isn’t rage the Grand Mother projects, but rather, desperation. She wants, very badly, to wake up, and so aims to use the Haunting to silence the Bugs who are singing the lullaby keeping her asleep.

[low oracle]

GMS was put to sleep by weavers creating a dystopian mysery, which was worsened by the conductors.

[frosty gate]

The Dystopian Misery came after

[dreamy onyx]

Fun fact, bugs in real life actually get confused by fog and mist

[heavy gyro]

But the rooms disappear after phantom's death

[dreamy onyx]

It could very well just be a high enough concentration to confuse anyone who tries to enter rather than some hallucinatory power

[low oracle]

Fun Fact, I can get lost in fog without hallucinating actually.

[glacial warren]

But Hornet has an excellent and sound mind, on top of being a Demigod. She’s sharp and hale. The Mist is produced by Phantom, and obeys very…trippy logic, essentially trapping those who enter in a recursive illusion of sorts.

[dreamy onyx]

I'd hope so

[wet walrus]

So the wicked civilisation we see in pharloom was all built by weavers?

[low oracle]

The rooms just represent parts of Sinners road. They are probably somewhere else in the three dimensional world, just not where we go.

[low oracle]

Why do you hope I get lost?

[dreamy onyx]

I think it's just Hornet getting disoriented

[rose quest]

Any sea of sorrow leaks so far?

[glacial warren]

The Silkflies populating the proximity are the only way to know the ‘correct’ path through it, as otherwise no matter how good your navigation, you’ll keep getting stuck in a feedback loop until it spits you back out into Bilewater.

[low oracle]

Me too.

[dreamy onyx]

I'm hoping you don't get lost in fog

[low oracle]

✨ Gameplay✨

[dreamy onyx]

Phantom is also a pale being, no? She's the daughter of Grand Mother Silk

[frosty gate]

The Mist is a hallucination though, the rooms dissappear later and so do the Wraiths

[frosty gate]

By a technicality, yeah

[low oracle]

She is called a beast at the start of the game, sooo.....
Pretty sure there is more too.

[glacial warren]

Exactly. My guess is her skillset includes something she’s done to that smog she’s expelling, the song she plays on the organ, which generates The Mist. The Mist is a hallucinatory acid trip.

[low oracle]

Just because you don't go there, doesn't mean they disappear. The map is 3D.

[frosty gate]

You go through the same part, we have no reason to believe Hornet just takes another path

[glacial warren]

Exactly. The Mist isn’t just Hornet ‘getting lost’, the entire location is fake. It literally does not show up on your Map at all, and when Phantom is defeated and the smog clears, it’s revealed that there are no ‘rooms’ between Bilewater and the Exhaust Organ. The entire location we call The Mist just…ceases to exist entirely once you clear the smog and stop Phantom’s song.

[low oracle]

Yes we have. In the fog you can't see all possible paths, so you can't go the direct route.

[low oracle]

Can you not ignore my arguments against that?

[glacial warren]

That’s because your arguments have no basis in this neat thing we call reality.

[low oracle]

Also, why would Phantom make the rooms look like sinners road then? Since you literally just said it's part of Bilewater.

[gentle aspen]

don’t be toxic

[frosty gate]

There are no paths in the fog and the architecture in The Mist makes no sense

[low oracle]

If your insults are all you have, don't bother even writing in a lore chat.

[dreamy onyx]

I think it's just the nature of expelling so much smog rather than some pale shenanigans. Smoke in real life disorients bugs, I'd assume a high enough concentration of it would affect any bug in Silksong.

[frosty gate]

The Mist is literally a whole place telling whoever comes near to fuck off

The Wraiths tell you to go away

[gentle aspen]

if that were the case you’d see remnants of the architecture afterwards

[glacial warren]

The Architecture in the Mist, if it can even be called that, is a bizarre conglomeration.

[gentle aspen]

the entire place is gone after phantom and the organ is dealt with

[low oracle]

The architecture is literally just Sinners Road.
"No paths in the fog" what do you mean?

[dreamy onyx]

We see parts of it in the climb, I think it's all just a part of the disorientation Hornet faces

[frosty gate]

"The architecture is literally just Sinners Road" I forgot the part in Sinner's Road when i fall to the nothingness and go back to the beggining

[low oracle]

The map is 3D. Hornet could just take a more direct path, after actually seeing stuff beyond a few meters.

[glacial warren]

Well there is technically a ‘path’, but only the Silkflies know which of the ‘room exits’ is real/genuine. your Needolin is the only way for Hornet to differentiate between reality and illusion in the Mist.

[gentle aspen]

you are ignoring the fact that the entire area vanishes after phantom is dealt with

[low oracle]

✨ Gameplay✨
That wouldn't happen with the mist either.

[gentle aspen]

It isn’t just “hornet taking a more direct path” she is navigating things that don’t exist

[glacial warren]

Exactly, yes, thank you.

[frosty gate]

Not everything is gameplay man, this has an actual lore reason

[low oracle]

Because the area could just be in the background, and you now walk straight, due to the mist not obstructing your vision.

[glacial warren]

This too. Again the Mist comes from the Exhaust Organ, which Phantom operates. She’s the source.

[low oracle]

Hornet respawning at the start has a lore reason?

[frosty gate]

Mfw I create a whole place with a "Fuck off" thematic

"Leave this place...
Those who wander... will die..."

[gentle aspen]

Then you’d see it in the background? You keep making a bunch of assumptions that don’t have much merit and requires more explanation than the fact that its a magical place that disappears afterwards

[gentle aspen]

Which we directly see happen

[low oracle]

She's the source no doubt, but that doesn't mean she can create rooms and shit. That'd be stupidly powerful for a frayed, silken construct.

[glacial warren]

Like everyone here’s been saying, the Mist is in essence one giant illusion/hallucination. a recursive maze intended to keep trespassers away from the Organ.

[frosty gate]

I said not everything, you don't have to go to the other extreme to try and prove me wrong

[low oracle]

Explain why Phantom would be so powerfull then.

[low oracle]

I was SPECIFICALLY referring to that single point.

[gentle aspen]

She’s expelling all of the citadel’s silk

[low oracle]

An illusion ≠ physical

Now is the mist real or not, decide for once. You are arguing it's inside of hornet's mind, but at the same time that Phantom creates pocket dimensions.

[gentle aspen]

and like, she’s gms’s kid? It isn’t that insanely powerful to have an illusory ability

[glacial warren]

She makes ‘rooms’ via the strange song she plays. Music in Silksong is shown to have magical/arcane properties. Phantom is likely infusing a Silk-woven song into the Organ and by extension the smog it belches from its pipes, thus creating the sheet of illusionary fog we call The Mist.

[frosty gate]

Okay, wait

Where do people get the crazy idea that Phantom is just exerting her power into this shit

[low oracle]

The Whiteward is using all of the silk, and we can very clearly only make a comparison between the wraiths and the unravelled. The fog is just fog.

[frosty gate]

The hallucination is because of the expel of waste

Expel of Waste Phantom controls

[dreamy onyx]

I think she's actually expelling the fumes from the Whiteward from the recovery of Silk, rather than Silk itself. Any Silk that gets caught in it is just collected by the moorbugs

[low oracle]

So you are arguing she's killing herself willingly, by infusing her silk into the organ?

[glacial warren]

Phantom controls said waste, at least in part. This projection of her power is also how she spawns the Wraiths, her agents in the field.

[frosty gate]

She doesn't use silk

Phantom has no usage of silk for the Mist

[low oracle]

You are literally arguing against each other, how am I even to respond to that?

[frosty gate]

Is the waste of the Citadel, imbued with the Citadel's wasted silk, that form the mist

[gentle aspen]

she’s expelling silk waste yes

[frosty gate]

And with this, she creates an enviroment

But doesn't use her own silk

[glacial warren]

Actually I think most of what’s expelled is likely smog from the Underworks and/or The Cauldron, as the Organ is built into the very bottom of the Underworks.

[dreamy onyx]

I think the Wraiths are just a manifestation of her will unintentionally, I don't think she's actually creating them on purpose. I say this because there's just... not much reason for anyone to trespass, and she doesn't exactly seem to be enjoying it either, hence the Wraiths.

[gentle aspen]

I didn’t say she was using her own silk

[dreamy onyx]

It could connect to both.

[low oracle]

She can't use the silk, otherwise she wouldn't be having the problem of lacking silk.

[gentle aspen]

its waste

[low oracle]

The Underworks and Whiteward are directly connected.

[frosty gate]

Exactly my point

[low oracle]

That she can't use the silk from the Whiteward, having to use her own silk at best?

[gentle aspen]

Again, it’s waste. This is like saying “you can’t use garbage because you wouldn’t have the problem of lacking food”

[glacial warren]

The Whiteward’s waste spills down into the Underworks, there is a pipework system where the remains of the crematorium drain down into the Underworks.

[low oracle]

If the garbage is food, then yes, that is correct. You can still eat it if you're desperate, just like Phantom is.

[frosty gate]

This is exactly what I mean, she isn't using her silk, its just the silkwaste

[low oracle]

What pipework do you mean?

[glacial warren]

In essence, the Underworks is in large part where all of the Citadel’s waste is funneled through before being belched out as smog in the Exhaust Organ.

[low oracle]

Also where the waste is created.

[glacial warren]

Vent system exposed behind the crematorium via Hornet going inside one of the cremation ovens.

[frosty gate]

In the Citadel

[gentle aspen]

[dreamy onyx]

When they cremate the bodies in the Whiteward

I'm not sure about the steam pipes since that could just be water

[low oracle]

The upper citadel doesn't produce anything, so they wouldn't have waste. It is the Underworks I'm referring to.

[frosty gate]

"If you're homeless just buy a home" type argument

[low oracle]

The steam pipes expel heat from the machines. They still work without Phantom, so they aren't connected.

[topaz frost]

Technically

It's true

[low oracle]

Some homeless people eat food from the trash, tf are you even saying?

[glacial warren]

This I agree on, yeah. Phantom only controls the very largest pipes that connect into the Exhaust Organ.

[frosty gate]

That doesn't make it right and that doesn't mean she would do it wtf

[topaz frost]

You do what you gotta do my guy

[gentle aspen]

yeah but this is meant to be already used silk which would be like, rotten shit as opposed to stale things companies throw away

[dreamy onyx]

It's basically excrement

[low oracle]

She would rather die than take in silk she has access to.....?

Accept that she doesn't have access to the silk, it isn't that complicated.

[frosty gate]

Plus we don't even know if she can just take silkwaste like that

[low oracle]

I would eat rotten shit to not die.

[glacial warren]

But yeah to summarize all this: Lore-wise, Phantom is the source of the pollution plaguing Bilewater, Sinner’s Road, and the Putrified Ducts. The Mist and the Wraiths populating the proximity are Phantom’s extensions of her will, forming her own personal defense mechanism and guarding this potential ‘unauthorized’ entry point into the Citadel.

[gentle aspen]

eating rotten shit will make you die gng

[low oracle]

Why would she not be able to?

[frosty gate]

Because its waste

[low oracle]

Wrong, Minecraft has a small chance of rotten meat not giving poison effect.
Besides, silk is silk. It isn't comparable to rotten meat, because it always works the same.

[dreamy onyx]

I'm still not sold on the ducts theory, I think it was used to dump the waste into Bilewater rather than becoming infested later.

[gentle aspen]

LMFAO

[frosty gate]

[gentle aspen]

YOU CITED MINECRAFT?????

[low oracle]

It isn't even a theory when I say that ducts are ducts.
(ducts are used to get rid of waste)

[blissful harbor]

lol

[frosty gate]

I'm going to the Deadlock server

[dreamy onyx]

I don't think that's much better twin 😭🙏

[frosty gate]

They're really fun people

[topaz frost]

Are ye really going stupid over silk?

[dreamy onyx]

same as usual

[dreamy onyx]

maybe I was mistaken twin

[low oracle]

Counter-argument: Why are the wraiths only in the mist, and why is there no fog in Bilewater if it's being polluted by Phantom?
And why do you not know what a fucking duct is?

[frosty gate]

Daily SK-Lore conversation

[topaz frost]

Fair

[low oracle]

I'm being ragebaited with these arguments...

[topaz frost]

It's just silk tho

[glacial warren]

The Ducts are above Bilewater, and Bilewater has a notably valley-like primary shape in its geography. All that heavy smog likely filtered up through it, and eventually contaminated the water in the Ducts from below.

[low oracle]

THERE IS NO SMOG IN BILEWATER OR THE DUCTS WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???

The waste is the maggots. FROM THE DUCTS. DO YOU NOT KNOW WHAT A DUCT IS???

[glacial warren]

The Mist and Wraiths only exist in the immediate proximity to the Organ itself, where the haze is at its thickest and Phantom’s song is within earshot of approaching trespassers. It’s meant as a defense mechanism to stop Bugs from coming into the Citadel via this ‘unauthorized’ entryway.

[topaz frost]

Type of tape

[low oracle]

Then how does the mist "pollute" Ducts, when it isn't even there?

[glacial warren]

The haze radiates out through Bilewater, and likely carries upwards through its valley-like shape and eventually reached the Ducts. There’s still smog in Bilewater, Sinner’s Road and the Ducts, just not as thick and concentrated and enchanted by Phantom’s power/song.

[topaz frost]

Might be time to stop while you are behind

[low oracle]

?

[low oracle]

And why do you refuse to believe that the ducts work like ducts?

[glacial warren]

The Mist is not ordinary smog remember, but it’s being drastically, magically enhanced due to Phantom being nearby.

[low oracle]

That has nothing to do with the question I just asked, and the points I am making.

[glacial warren]

The Ducts operated as their intended purpose, and possibly still do, though much of the water they were transporting has become tainted due to proximity to Bilewater, which in turn is in proximity to the Exhaust Organ. It’s something of a chain reaction.

[low oracle]

Why would they excreet clean water? And what do you think their purpose is?

[dreamy onyx]

I think, and this is speculatory, but it could also be that the ducts used to be for bringing fresh water in from Bilewater, but eventually the water from Karak was used instead, and they just dumped their excrement in the ducts

[low oracle]

The ducts are shown to excreet waste. They never had a different purpose, because they were build for the Underworks.

[glacial warren]

The Ducts likely funneled water for use into the Citadel from the Pale Lake, as it is connected to these Ducts directly. Due to the exposure of the Organ’s smog from below, funneled in by Bilewater, much of the water the Ducts transported has become stagnant and tainted.

[dreamy onyx]

The Putrified Ducts weren't built for the Underworks. Their stonework makes me think they existed far before the Citadel took off

Also they literally have the organ for expelling Underworks waste

[glacial warren]

Hence the name ‘Putrified’, as in something externally polluted something that was once clean.

[low oracle]

What "stonework" do you mean?

[dreamy onyx]

The physical construction of the cuts

ducts

[low oracle]

The organ expells gases. The maggots are definitely not from there.

[low oracle]

As in, they use stone? So does everything else, just not as bare.

[low oracle]

Why is the pale lake clean then? by that logic, the water couldn't be clean at all, since the pollution doesn't travel up straight.

[round abyss]

Are pharlid weavers? Are they created by grandmother silk

[sinful nimbus]

Pharlids are ||wild animals who were magically uplifted into Weavers by GMS|| (Spoilered because I'm not sure how far you are into the game)

[prime mantle]

my faydown theory got buried :(

it was for a lumafly convo though which is cool

i do still think lumaflies are like silkflies but made of soul, though all the extra details are cool

[graceful grail]

I thought you could get essence from things because they have a mind. The collector technically has a mind because he merged with that bug.

Also all the essence TK has he is an actually storing it. It’s all in the dreamnail.

[prime mantle]

you can get essence when you kill anything in hallownest

99% of these are either infected or sapient but there has to be at least one uninfected beast you could theoretically farm in the compendium

id look for it but i cant bother rn

i agree that soul and essence are intertwined, though they're distinct things

[graceful grail]

Are Dreams Soul then??

Seer: "Essence... the precious fragments of light that dreams are made of."

[low oracle]

Dreams are made of essence.

[graceful grail]

Yes, people are saying essence and Soul are the same for some reason

[low oracle]

They aren't, they are just connected. Silk and Soul are the same.

[graceful grail]

How is essence and soul “connected” what does that even imply??

[low oracle]

Dreamnailing gives soul, even from void (which contradicts the nature of void).

[graceful grail]

Are they saying that because you get soul from dream nailing? TBF that seems like a gameplay feature to me. Kinda like how dying isn’t Cannon

[whole holly]

okay then Dream Wielder charm also proves that

[graceful grail]

You also don’t get soul from dream nailing your siblings. Only collector who has a mind.

[low oracle]

You could be right, would explain Collector at least. Since void shouldn't actually give soul.

[low oracle]

Collector has an imprint of a mind at least.

[graceful grail]

Yes, that’s what I mean

[graceful grail]

It’s for collecting essence. The collection of soul is clearly a gameplay feature.

Transient charm created for those who wield the Dream Nail and collect Essence.

[whole holly]

sure but Soul and Dream are intertwined, Sylphsong is "Essence of a being merged within. Silk will be restored when resting at a bench." Eva has essence even if she is only made of silk runes and iron shell which is cage, point is that beings with Soul also have Essence and fact that Dream Realm is realm between Body and Soul as Seer says

[whole holly]

meaning it is just as connected to body as it is to soul, we dream nail lot of bodies to get Essence and connection might be analogous to soul

[low oracle]

Anyways, do you think the collector was something the Pale King or Lurien knew of? We only know that the royal husk in queens gardens interacted with it, and the Collector is a disfunctional Kingsmould with serious mental issues. In godhome, the statue is even cracked (the only statue with this feature).

I believe that neither either the Pale King, Lurien or both knew of the Collector, building the tower of love to imprison it. They couldn't have been the ones making it collect bugs though, as that includes sapient ones which the Pale King doesn't condone.

Idk really, but the tower of love is top grand to be kept unnoticed by the higher ups.

[graceful grail]

That’s a different kind of essence, like the essence of your being (what you are made of)

i’m pretty sure Eva doesn’t give you “essence” she clearly gives silk

[tawdry flare]

Image related or nah

[low oracle]

Grulector isn't canon as far as I know, but I didn't want to send the Collector AND a Grub.

[whole holly]

i mean that could be a case but there is still a second point, which should have been main one in hindsight

[graceful grail]

What is it

[whole holly]

instead you sent worst of both

[whole holly]

Dream Realm is realm between Body and Soul as Seer says, if you are asking me

but i still think first point is valid as void and silk composed beings can still contain essence, essence seemingly comes from living beings dreams, memories and mind

[graceful grail]

You need a mind to have essence. That’s like the whole point of the vessels. they weren’t supposed to have one.

[low oracle]

He's cute! Even if Grosk is even cuter.

[whole holly]

point is they weren't supposed to... but that was wrong as vessels still have mind and Lost Kin even turns to Essence Spirit that we collect with Dream Nail

connection still exists and Soul and Essence are still connected

[graceful grail]

Yes, thank you for proving my point.

[graceful grail]

How

[whole holly]

what is your point?

[graceful grail]

Essence comes from your mind, not stored or connected in soul somehow

[whole holly]

i already told you seer dialogue, Lost Kin having essence disproves point of Soul and Essence not being connected

[gentle aspen]

It’s not just gameplay

[graceful grail]

Lost kin had a mind

At least the shell did

[random harbor]

Seer - In the Dream - First Encounter in the Dream

What a terrible fate they've visited upon you.
To cast you away into this space between body and soul.
Will you accept their judgement and fade slowly away?
Or will you take the weapon before you, and cut your way out of this sad, forgotten dream?

@kingoclowns used /npcs quest name: Seer category: In the Dream dialogue: First Encounter in the Dream

[whole holly]

it doesn't have to be stored in Soul to be connected to Essence, Mind is part of a body, Soul animates bodies and by extension a mind

[gentle aspen]

You don’t get soul from dream nailing siblings because their imprints are faded, and the dream nail dispels their physical form entirely

[graceful grail]

If anything what seer says is saying essence is disconnected from soul

[gentle aspen]

“Cast you into this space between body and soul”

that’s not disconnected

Nika is correct

[whole holly]

how so?

[graceful grail]

It’s neither body nor soul

[gentle aspen]

being between the two implies connection lol

[whole holly]

and still connected to them? how can essence form by being disconnected to soul, essence never forms from non-living things without some lifeform imprinting on it

[graceful grail]

If essence had a connection to soul that would mean the radiance is a pale being. Which she is not.

[gentle aspen]

being connected to soul doesn’t mean you’re a pale being

you hit the radiance and you take soul from her

[graceful grail]

Being connected to soul is the definition of a pale being actually.

[gentle aspen]

it’s not

by that logic every living thing would be a pale being

[graceful grail]

Guess why GMS and PK are both pale beings and not related by blood

[gentle aspen]

every living being is connected to soul

[heavy gyro]

Non pale beings can still have soul

[gentle aspen]

Its lifeforce dawg

[whole holly]

what? Essence and Soul being connected doesn't make radiance a Pale Being, anything that is alive has Soul, it animates bodies, including Grimm's Unn's and Radiance's despite having connected to Essence

[graceful grail]

Highly connected to soul, not having a soul

[gentle aspen]

🙄

[graceful grail]

Then why are GMS and PK both pale beings? Explain.

[tawdry flare]

because they’re Pale Beings

[graceful grail]

White lady is not a pale being and she is pale.

[heavy gyro]

She is a pale being

[tawdry flare]

…uh. the White Lady is a Pale Being

[whole holly]

White Palace has Essence that is tied to Pale King, Pale Essence and so does Godhome's Pale King room

[graceful grail]

Show me where it says specifically she is a pale being and I will believe you.

[whole holly]

Greenpath lore Tablet referring to Queen's Gardens: Though once our lands, a pale being lays claim to the caverns ahead.
It may appear benevolent but it does not share our dream.
Be wary to wander that place.

[lime osprey]

She is pale

[random harbor]

Vespa - Hive - First Encounter

My Knight... At last you are freed.
Small thing. I know your kind.
If you attempt to resolve your past then know I am not the queen you seek.
It is the pale beings that bear blame for your nature.
Though this hive exists within Hallownest, we play no part in its attempt at perpetuation.

@theplasma used /npcs spirits name: Vespa category: Hive dialogue: First Encounter

[heavy gyro]

That's what I said

[graceful grail]

Is white lady pale because she’s married to PK?

[low oracle]

No, she's just Pale. Herrah isn't pale either just because she had "fun times" the Pale King.

[lime osprey]

Essence doesn’t have soul it’s the other way around. Also being pale is associated with soul, doesn’t mean that everything with soul is pale

[graceful grail]

Actually, GMS is pale, so I guess herra is decendant from pale

[lime osprey]

The weavers are not considered pale

[graceful grail]

I know, weird

[lime osprey]

Not exactly

[low oracle]

Herrah is an ascendet Pharlid (Drapemite if you are a theorrorist). Lace and Phantom are pale.

[low oracle]

Everything pale has a strong connection to soul.

[lime osprey]

Being pale is more than just being associated with soul or soul proficiency. Paleness implies some deep relationship with soul but what that is exactly is unconfirmed

[lime osprey]

I’m aware, there’s a connection there but what it is exactly we are unsure

[low oracle]

Infinite Soul. Kingsoul Charm implies it.

[lime osprey]

Maybe for the pale higher beings, but not for the pale children

Also all things have infinite soul as long as they’re alive (presumably from gp mechanics)

[heavy gyro]

Probably not that because GMS does not have infinite silk

[low oracle]

Cause they aren't Pale Beings. They are only pale.

[low oracle]

Who says she doesn't?

[whole holly]

i think we are missing the point here, Eva has Essence because she has mind made of Rune, Broken Vessel has Essence as well, Essence comes from Lifeforms which need Soul, so in the way Essence is byproduct of Soul

[lime osprey]

No, they are pale beings, just not higher beings. There are semantics

[heavy gyro]

If she did then she wouldn't run out of silk

[lime osprey]

Essence is not a byproduct of soul, soul implicitly has essence

[graceful grail]

I don’t know why yoi suddenly agreed with what I was just trying to point out, but now I’m wondering how exactly white lady is strongly connected to soul.

[low oracle]

They aren't pale beings, because pale beings are higher beings. Pretty sure about that.

[whole holly]

they aren't explicitly referred to as Pale Being, only pale bug or pale thing

[lime osprey]

Not confirmed

[whole holly]

it is in way i explained it

[low oracle]

Roots of life perhaps?

[lime osprey]

No, soul has essence within it

[low oracle]

Not unconfirmed, and it provides explanation.

[heavy gyro]

Kingsoul

[whole holly]

all Pale Beings who are called Pale Beings are also called Higher Beings though

[whole holly]

evidence?

[heavy gyro]

Palestag is a pale being isn't it, and its not a higher being

[lime osprey]

No, because in the GMS hunters entry, Hornet calls her a higher being, not pale being. And pale being has only been used once and that was by Unn

[low oracle]

Exactly, it has a pale shell, but isn't of the higher caste.

[graceful grail]

Is white lady so big because she is redirecting her powers into her growth??

[whole holly]

no, it is Stag touched Pale

[lime osprey]

There has only been one time pale beings have been used

[lime osprey]

Palestag isn’t real

[topaz frost]

I think its cus she is roots

[low oracle]

GMS can be a Pale Higher Being. What do you think your arguments are?

[graceful grail]

Not 100% confirmed.

[tawdry flare]

We don’t even know if the Palestag is real

[low oracle]

No, she's just like that.

[graceful grail]

She is one

[graceful grail]

Could’ve been just time you’re right

[low oracle]

Yeah.

[lime osprey]

If pale being = pale higher beings at all times then pale higher being is redundant

[heavy gyro]

We know that hornet is a pale being, and she is not a higher being

[lime osprey]

Does anybody have any example of “pale being” having been used outside of that one tablet? Or are we extrapolating from one single entry?

Because if it’s the latter then the argument is pointless

[whole holly]

Hornet dialogue with Green Prince: "You were mortal bugs, caught beneath a being pale... Devotion or destruction... these are the only fates my kind allow." and Greenpath lore tablet and "Vespa - Hive - First Encounter
My Knight... At last you are freed.
Small thing. I know your kind.
If you attempt to resolve your past then know I am not the queen you seek.
It is the pale beings that bear blame for your nature.
Though this hive exists within Hallownest, we play no part in its attempt at perpetuation."

[graceful grail]

She probably would be a higher being if she were to bind with GMS

[whole holly]

i provided evidence of Pale King, White Lady ans Grand Mother Silk all being called Pale Being, now what?

[gentle aspen]

well technically she said a being pale and not a pale being so

[gentle aspen]

🤓

[whole holly]

she is Pale, not Pale Being, that is used differently in game

[lime osprey]

Correlation still doesn’t equal causation 🌞

[low oracle]

The Hollow Knight was also just that big because it could actually grow. Pale King's size wasn't the actual reason the vessels are small.
I have two theories about it:
-THK is alive, while the siblings are dead (said by White Lady), and dead things don't grow up

-THK was infused with soul, allowing it to grow even in death, as it's body was artificially alive to do so

[tawdry flare]

Oh, I get it! Grandmother Silk is Being Pale, while the Pale King and the White Lady are Pale Beings! That’s why she’s such a fraud!

[gentle aspen]

why would thk be alive

[heavy gyro]

Pale beings are her kind

[whole holly]

excuse me? Pale Beings are refereed solely to them

[low oracle]

But it can. Don't argue with shit.

[low oracle]

That's the problem with that theory. I prefer the second one anyways.

[graceful grail]

Or it was something to do with that seal with his head on it that made THK grow to be that shape

[whole holly]

her kind but not her status, she is simply related to them

[low oracle]

Silk is soul, so she is technically just pale because she's made of soul. The Pale King and White lady on the other hand are actual Pale Beings.

[whole holly]

some people are genuinely arguing that right now

[low oracle]

That seems weird, since Broken Vessel also grew somewhat.

[graceful grail]

I think whatever this is is the reason why THK’s head looks like that.

[graceful grail]

The vessels are also many different shapes.

[tawdry flare]

[limpid summit]

THK was grown artificially while some vessels like BV just woke up larger

[low oracle]

That's a seal the Weavers made for the Pale King.

[lime osprey]

Literally makes no sense for the pale higher beings to be referred to as anything but pale beings. This was also in the first game only, those were the only beings considered pale outside of Hornet, in Silksong however paleness is used as a descriptor for multiple other characters. It would, hence, be redundant and not intelligent for beings to be pale but not referred to as pale beings

[low oracle]

But not size.

[graceful grail]

It’s not confirmed why there is one in the weavenest.

It would be cool if they use the one in the weavenest on Herra. That’s why she has those horns.

[lime osprey]

(Yes i agree this could be applied to higher status, as zeer refers to Hornet as higher but whatever)

[heavy gyro]

Mask maker refers to her as if she is of higher caste, so the status still applies

[low oracle]

"It would be cool if they use the one in the weavenest on Herra. That’s why she has those horns. "
Please tell me this is a joke.

[graceful grail]

Explain herras horns, please

[low oracle]

The status seems to apply at all times, even when it isn't accurate.

[whole holly]

Pale Being is status that Pale King, White Lady and Grand Mother Silk have, Pale is trait that can be inherited by descendant or whatever made Palestag, touched Pale

[tawdry flare]

Result of a retcon

[lime osprey]

Palestag isn’t real

[whole holly]

higher caste is still not inherently higher caste

[whole holly]

that's just a theory, though

[low oracle]

Just a design choice, it ain't that deep.

[lime osprey]

It is quite literally said it is mythological and not real

[graceful grail]

Yeah, but it’d be so cool if they use that seal to do it since the horns are so alike.

[low oracle]

Not really, they just did that as a design choice.

[limpid summit]

No it’s because of the retcon

She wasn’t meant to be a weaver so they changed her body type to weaver size but couldn’t change the horns since they look like hornet horns

[tawdry flare]

she wasn’t a Weaver originally. she was a “common beast”, but retconned into a Weaver in Silksong

[whole holly]

Hornet says did it exist as i have seen it? maybe it did exist in some way but that's not relevant to my point

[lime osprey]

Pale oil and pale ore have not been birthed by a pale higher being yet share a connection with them soooooo paleness isn’t something that has to be inherited

[lime osprey]

Conveniently skipping over the “myth made real in memory “ part 😭

[whole holly]

Pale Ore connection could be anything, maybe it was touched Pale or some connection irrelevant to my point, same with Pale Oil, we don't know what Sylphean Slugs are

[graceful grail]

Yeah, our only connection to what that word even means is sylphsong. Could be something to do with how Eva was made.

[lime osprey]

We know how they are related to soul. Eva bounded grants hornet Sylphsong which grants her infinite soul

[whole holly]

myth has many definitions though: myth
noun
a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining a natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.
a widely held but false belief or idea.
a misrepresentation of the truth.
a fictitious or imaginary person or thing.
an exaggerated or idealized conception of a person or thing.

[lime osprey]

Dude, to “make real” implies it previously was not real

[whole holly]

that doesn't tell you everything though

[graceful grail]

So green prince is delusional.

[lime osprey]

Soul is pale, silk is pale, but those are not generated from pale beings strictly

[whole holly]

it also says in memory, so it doesn't matter, it could be fact that green prince just didn't catch it

[whole holly]

and?

[lime osprey]

Dude 😭

[heavy gyro]

It's hornets journal though, she says its a myth made real in memory but immediately afterwards questions whether it was real or not

[graceful grail]

I myth something that doesn’t exist

[whole holly]

that's vague

[whole holly]

point is that it is inconclusive, i am not here to argue about Palestag though

[lime osprey]

It is quite literally said it was fabled, meaning its existence was never confirmed. Hornet then said it was made real by dream, and THEN she says it could existed maybe but not in the form it takes in the dream

[lime osprey]

inconclusive

It is strongly implied to not be real if not out right stated

[whole holly]

still implies that it could have existed and that's the point

[graceful grail]

You’re right, I refuse to believe that they recon herra without having an explanation for The Horns. I’m still convinced it’s to do with the seal in their weavenest until someone can explain otherwise

[whole holly]

it likely existed in different form than one hornet seen it in

also stop being toxic

[gentle aspen]

It isn’t likely, it’s a possibility

There’s a difference

[whole holly]

okay sure

[lime osprey]

Okay, now if stags existed, and if what was special about the palestag was that it was pale, and then Hornet questions if it was real and says that if it was it’s not in the form it takes in the dream, then it is stated that it was only fabled and never stated to exist, and then stated that it was made real in dream…

[whole holly]

but Pale is trait that doesn't always imply that bugs who are Pale are always Pale Beings, point is we don't have enough information to make outright conclusions

[heavy gyro]

The point is it possibly existed

[whole holly]

my original point was that just because something is called Pale doesn't mean it is pale being, then you derailed it by saying Palestag didn't exist

[topaz frost]

Won't exist for long if I get my hands on it

[whole holly]

but let's leave that in past and discuss everything in civil way

[lime osprey]

Yes, this argument is still contentious. As if Pale Being is one term used to describe specifically a Pale Higher Being, DESPITE there existing beings that are Pale but are not a higher being, then the term would appear as is all the time, as higher being is used (outside of zeer) except it isn’t, a pale being is referred to as a being pale, sort of breaking the convention and titling. Like i agree it isn’t fully unsupported that “Pale beings” always equals “Pale Higher Beings,” however, considering there are literal beings that are pale that are not higher, you would expect, if such a rule existed, it would be treated strictly, but it isn’t

[stray fog]

I think lumaflies are made of soul
They would be analogous to silkflies in this way

My reasoning is that lumaflies provide light, and soul is associated with light (paleness)

I know this isn't much evidence, but maybe someone else can come up with more evidence for or against this

[whole holly]

sure it isn't treated strictly because it is not too obvious but only Pale Beings that are described as "Pale Being" are Grand Mother Silk, Pale King and White Lady, all of whom are Higher Beings, Hornet is Pale.. but not Pale Being, like Vessels and lace and phantom and palestag and pale lake

[lime osprey]

GMS isn’t referred to as Pale Being

Also based for calling Phantom pale

[whole holly]

Being Pale is Pale Being, what else could it mean?

[whole holly]

there are multiple other reasons for considering that as well

[lime osprey]

Im saying, there are beings pale that are not “pale [higher] beings,” meaning, if Pale Being specifically always implies higher being, and considering the above truth, then it would be incredulous to refer to a Pale [higher] Being as a being pale

[stray fog]

Please elaborate

[whole holly]

and i am saying that Pale Beings are higher beings that have pale trait but regular bugs can have that trait as well, Pale Being is just Higher Being that is Palce

[lime osprey]

That isn’t fully supported or confirmed though, Pale Being, the term, is only used to describe WL and PK a couple of times in the first game, after that, there were many beings confirmed pale, and the only “Pale [higher] Being” in silksong is not called that

[whole holly]

it is vague but you know how lumaflies can be charged? so basically Volt twisters as Soul Sanctum Bugs that only eat lumaflies and they control the Voltage, implying they are channeling volt powers through soul, because they have soul skills, Hornet's Silk Skills can also be charged by Voltage, implying that Soul/Silk can carry voltage and Lumaflies can be charged and implies their connection to Soul is innate and might mean they are mostly composed of Soul, if not fully, if they are used as means to carry charge/voltage in meaningful capacity

[whole holly]

that may not be obvious yet but i will agree with general consensus now until we see it being proved otherwise.

[whole holly]

if Soul and Silk carries Voltage as evidenced by Volt Filament and Volt Twisters it implies that Lumaflies are mostly composed of Soul to carry charge/voltage in meaningful capacity

[lone folio]

Soul can also take the form of fire and is also a liquid. If only soul could also take the form of wind and earth we could have a "hollow knight: the last soul bender"

[whole holly]

wow, that's definitely very creative and insightful

[lone folio]

Honestly now I wonder if any hollow knight civilization has started using soul as its main power source

Pharloom has already kind of done that with powering it's robots with silk flies

Maybe city of steel is using its own citizens as an energy source

[whole holly]

to be honest, Wisp, Volt, Mist, Silk all are various forms of Soul Usage

[lone folio]

Mist?

[whole holly]

isn't Soul Sanctum Enough

[lone folio]

N o

[lone folio]

Like the shrieking things in the mist?

[whole holly]

yeah Silk and Smog exhaust, but isn't exhaust just Silk being processed?

[whole holly]

those too

[lone folio]

So we do have wind soul.....

We are one step away from hollow knight last soul bender

[low oracle]

Weavers are technically common beasts. I've always thought she was a weaver, due to not being very aware of that text. I was however aware of Hornet using silk.

[low oracle]

Hollow Knight: Genderbenderblender

[stray fog]

You cooked

[whole holly]

oh thank you

[stray fog]

Tytus do you know why scoot disappeared

[limpid summit]

Cook again nika

Idk if I would say it’s as plain as lumaflies are soulflies though ik that’s not what you mean

[stray fog]

This happened in the past as well

[limpid summit]

Especially since monarchflies are a whole nother can of worms

But seer does become a lumafly too

[lone folio]

Again??

[whole holly]

true, that's what presents logical flaw but i don't think it is that deep

[stray fog]

Do you know what happened last time?

I feel like I'm watching dark again

[lone folio]

no

[lone folio]

yeah

[whole holly]

i don't think whole theory is that deep but it is interesting implication

[limpid summit]

Some people just take breaks

I’m sure scoot alight

[lone folio]

oh well we will see if scoot comes back

[whole holly]

he is sure... but point is that his DM and Friends Requests aren't being sent... maybe he can't handle this channel?

[stray fog]

If they are similar to silkflies, and silkflies originate from whiteward experiments, then who made all those lumaflies? 🤔

I think maybe lumaflies always existed, and only silkflies are artificial

[whole holly]

i don't know

[stray fog]

Modified lumaflies or something

[whole holly]

i agree

[prime mantle]

i saw it mentioned earlier but siblings not giving soul when dream nailed is something im thinking about

why could that be? they have to have a will or self that can be given focus, as per the dmn and godseeker endings, ergo soul

[frosty gate]

Why would they give soul

[whole holly]

i mean they are made of void and Dream Nail is blade of Light so that's most likely the reason, plus they are withering away in the void

[prime mantle]

you could be right, the void could be concealing it

i think hk gives soul

and pure vessel

and lost kin etc. but they posess their shells

[prime mantle]

i brought this up too

soul is tempermental, the environment matters

the druid's eye can cry silk. i suspect this would be because of its proximity to hornet

so you see a natural substance of moss collecting and turning into a substance of silk, fueled by hornet's "suffering"

it makes sense for soul to interact with nature in such ways

[stray fog]

Yep

The shells are what makes it different

Look at the collector, and compare him to kingsmoulds

[frosty gate]

Soul is stored in the Shell

[prime mantle]

the collector himself doesn't seem to possess a shell hm

[frosty gate]

Does he give soul? I can't remember

I was pretty sure it didn't

[quartz flicker]

https://fxtwitter.com/hktwtconfession/status/2017115559985574135

Hollow Knight Confessions/Takes (@hktwtconfession)

"One thing I wish people talked about more was the surface above the hallownest/pharloom, why is it always night and windy? Why is everything up there have little to none bugs living there, why is there so much ruin up on the surface, it all feels unnaturally empty and dead"

**💬 22 🔁 31 ❤️ 1.1K 👁️ 27.4K **

FxTwitter · Jan 30, 2026, 6:00 AM

My take is that there's no celestial bodies in the HK universe.

There's no references to stars, a sun, a moon, planets, or comets anywhere in either game.

The entire world could just be a vast expanse of caves that bottoms out at the Abyss.

Unclear if the top is just an endless expanse of nothing, or even more rock.

[plain ruin]

Mister Mushroom does actually mention the moon in the first game, but then again it’s Mister Mushroom

[quartz flicker]

You have a screenshot of that?

[blissful harbor]

probably just a world made entirely of caves

there is no true “surface”

[plain ruin]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Mister_Mushroom_(Hollow_Knight)
6th encounter dialogue

[whole marsh]

In HK everything is underground, even dirtmouth and the howling cliffs (per team cherry). Nothing has been said regarding the surface in Pharloom though, that very well could be on the actual surface of the world.

[quartz flicker]

Odd that the "actual surface" would look pretty much the same as the edge of the Howling Cliffs.

[whole marsh]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilFUHGyhxWQ

Here's a lore vid talking about the areas outside of the kingdoms of the first 2 games.

There's not really much to talk about tbh, but this guy at least puts it all together in a neat package

[quartz flicker]

lol I forgot that he just hangs out as this guy's house at one point

...huh

what in god's name would be "the moon" in the Hollow Knight universe even be?

[whole holly]

Grand Mother Silk is the closest thing to Moon i guess

[quartz flicker]

Some of these paths seem to go above Pharloon, yeah?

[plain gazelle]

i assume we're getting a top-down view

[limpid summit]

^