sk-lore

[heavy gyro]

its possible that TK only has control over hallownest's void

[winter turret]

"no mind to think" ahh 🥀

[wispy urchin]

how does that track if it runs under the entirety of the world

[dreamy onyx]

I think it's pretty clear atp that the Pale King and White Lady were just stupid and didn't realise the Vessels had minds

[muted lantern]

More like it cant control the tendrils themselves as they act on their own, like how we cant stop our own digestive system from digesting. as i said i think the void consuming things is involuntary on the knights part. Their dominion over the void probably doesnt stop the tendrils from doing their thing.

[heavy gyro]

dream teleportation magic idk

[winter turret]

Yo wait I beat lost lace 35 hours in 🔥🔥🔥🔥

[muted lantern]

Essentially ghost is the god of the void now but the tendrils will still act on their own to consume, as its just the nature of the void.

thats why ghost has to come in and physically stop them

[wispy urchin]

my friend beat LL 120 hours in and i had to restrain so hard from calling them awful at the game

https://tenor.com/view/im-not-a-perfect-person-cat-side-eye-distress-looking-gif-16639804187763803346

[winter turret]

O so the tendrils are js there own thing but are still under tk

[wispy urchin]

sorta like any god (non omnipotent)

the void isnt a hivemind

he cant just be like "dont" and have them listen yk

[muted lantern]

Yeah the whole void is kind of it's body now. united under its will in a broad sense. but we are definitely shown the void still acts on its own to an extent.

[winter turret]

Oh and still one question, why did he bring all one gillion siblings when he went to save her 🥀

[wispy urchin]

drama

🔥 🔥

[dreamy onyx]

looks cool

[muted lantern]

the whole void is united under their will, so essentially even the siblings are part of them

[winter turret]

Tk be aura farming 🔥🔥🔥

[wispy urchin]

the whole cutting the tendrils and the wall of siblings behind him for the reveal was just spice 🔥 🔥

[dreamy onyx]

went kinda hard I can't lie

sometimes it's okay to have hype moments and aura

[winter turret]

Lwk he was js aura farming the entire 15 seconds of screen time he had

[wispy urchin]

not with unexplained lore in the game with mysterious lore everyone wants to know everything about

[winter turret]

Cutting the tendrils bringing all the siblings and flashing his shade lord form 🔥🔥

[wispy urchin]

p sure the only reason he flashed shade lord form is to throw godhome ending in there to be like "oooo all endings are cannon oooo"

[dreamy onyx]

yeah I'm betting on that too

Especially since, DLC ending

[maiden meteor]

oh that's curious

so bone and shell ARE separate

which means there might exist creatures with bones

[prime mantle]

we see ribs everywhere

and spines

[maiden meteor]

oh right

I kinda forgot lmao

[prime mantle]

pure speculation but my outlook on hk tends to be that it's like, earth post apocalypse

and a bunch of the skeletal structures that provide entire caverns and roofs belong to animals that weren't bugs at all

0 proof for this obvi

and bugs themselves should have bones because a lot of the shell fragments you can get is from living creatures

so at least some of pharloom's compendium have bones

i mean, i guess even soft bodied bugs drop them, and they should have neither, but still

[wispy urchin]

its just flint michigan

[prime mantle]

it could also be that what is the shell of a bug might be much harder in some bugs, enough to be called bone, and in that situation it'd be an exoskeleton still

[dreamy onyx]

I think bones are just endoskeletons

[wispy urchin]

some yes some no

[prime mantle]

could be. i legit thought hallownest was in the ruins of a building in the first game and that's why it was so dusty and dark on the surface

[wispy urchin]

there are plenty non exoskeleton bugs in ss

[dreamy onyx]

I mean the tarmites are describes as bony

[dreamy onyx]

like who? genuinely

[wispy urchin]

almost everyone except hornet

fleas

pilgrims

[prime mantle]

only some pilgrims have soft bodies

and fleas have their fur over the exoskeleton

[dreamy onyx]

Fur over the exoskeleton is just a regular skeleton

[wispy urchin]

what

[prime mantle]

there are molluscs though, so there are bugs that could have endoskeletons

[wispy urchin]

how does that make sense

[prime mantle]

look at the adult fleas

[prime mantle]

no, it's more like a moose's horn

[dreamy onyx]

You mean like what Mooshka wears? I think that's just armour lol

[wispy urchin]

exoskeleton would be thick enough to not require fur on the outside?

[prime mantle]

bugs with exoskeletons irl have hair/fur

[wispy urchin]

to the extent of not showing the exoskeleton underneath or being described as fluffy in the hunter logs?

[prime mantle]

could be, but there's no reason to believe they are endoskeletoned when real fleas arent

[dreamy onyx]

I mean we don't know if there's actual meat on the fleas or if it's just fur

[prime mantle]

id describe a tarantula as fluffy

[dreamy onyx]

If there's flesh then that's just a regular skeleton

[wispy urchin]

i wouldnt

lol

i'd describe fluffy as like, long, thick hair that is soft and plentiful

tarantula hair is on the thicker side and straight as a pin

and travels horizontally down the legs

[prime mantle]

moths, then?

there are fluffy bugs with exoskeletons, was my point

[whole holly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0A09ko-134

it really dissects red memory

[low oracle]

Which content creator?

[stray fog]

Ccmaci

[simple hull]

i learned photoshop to make ts

[whole holly]

CCmaci

only major memories we see in Hollow Knight the First game is Pale King and Pure Vessel memory in White Palace and also The Knight's memory in Abyss

[low oracle]

Wrong channel bro

[simple hull]

nobody replying in ss discussion

[whole holly]

i wish we knew more about memories... i mean their nature in general because we apparently have Abyss Memory and White Palace Memory, we don't know if it is truly made up of essence like Seer implies, but Silksong suggests it's connection to Soul, Abyss memory is connected to neither, but Void... what even are memories?

[low oracle]

Isn't essence and soul, what silk is to soul? Essentially they function in a way that we can assume that. Dreamnail giving soul for example.

[whole holly]

i mean technically none of those are mutually exclusive, Essence can also be present with Soul, Void can consume Soul

[low oracle]

I don't fully understand your statement. Void consumes anything that it can consume.

But what do you mean with the things about essence and soul?

[whole holly]

not at all, Essence is different force that has vague connection to Soul... they are vaguely connected thanks to Dream Wielder charm, Silk is a form of Soul, Dream Nail gives Soul mostly for gameplay and and vague connection to Soul, which is vague

[whole holly]

we know how Void consumes Soul, not only soul but , Soul is kinda number one priority

[low oracle]

Okay so here is how I understand it:
Soul is something that all (somewhat) creatures have within them, being the force of life. It is very powerful, yet also hard to manipulate for the common bug. It also draws creatures closer to the forces of Higher Beings.

Essence is a form of matter, which Higher Beings use to do things. The Dream Realm(s) are entered using essence, and are seemingly also made of it.
Dreams shape from essence formed within a bug, due to a variety of reasons.
Dream Warriors are not actual ghosts, but rather memories made of essence. They also show how essence is physical matter, and dreams/memories are much more than simple thoughts.

Silk is simply soul spun into a thread, sharing the same properties and uses. Both silk and soul have a seemingly infinite variety of uses, hence being utilized in all sorts of applications.
The Whiteward using silk to extend a bugs life, is just them literally infusing more life energy into a bug.
Lace and Phantom are also just pure life energy essentially, hence they aren't the same as automatons.

Void is basically anti-soul/anti-life energy. It is attracted to soul, with the intention of consuming it. It possibly may even be infinite energy, as it doesn't drain soul to function (Knight's spells are just gameplay mechanics, or soul infused with void).
The Vessels have no soul inside of them, and "run" on anti-life (void). Their masks/shells (whatever term used for the head) is living on soul. Basically that means, the Shade and Mask have two separate minds. They only unite when obtaining the Voidheart, hence being hostile towards one another before being united.

Higher Beings are immensly powerful creatures with very close relation to soul and essence (Shade Lord excluded).

The only Higher Beings we don't see using essence are The White Lady, Grand Mother Silk and potentially Nyleth/Fayhorn (wether or not you count the as Higher Beings). The Shade Lord may be on that list too, though there is really nothing saying as such. Especially with the events occurring in HK.

[whole holly]

that's true, Essence i think is related to minds and cognition

we know correction is not necessary

[gentle aspen]

WL is aware of those who pry into her mind and has an essence color associated with her and the pale king

[whole holly]

said to be mortal but ancient

[gentle aspen]

and nyleth is not a higher being they’re mortal

[low oracle]

Technically any HB is "mortal" as they can all die. I wouldn't say that makes an argument, when the Pale King, Radiance and Grand Mother Silk die too.
She might also be a semi-higher being.

[gentle aspen]

the term mortal is being used to contrast the divine

[whole holly]

1. midwife does that despite having no established connection to essence, 2. essence color in godhome means nothing in practice

[gentle aspen]

Don’t be a pedant when you’re incorrect

semi higher being is also not a thing

[gentle aspen]

It’s both of them together, mate

[whole holly]

who is incorrect, i don't think anyone said she was immortal?

[low oracle]

Says who? Would you regard the vessels normal bugs then? Or say that higher beings can infinitely be created?

[gentle aspen]

says the metrics of being a higher being

they’re creatures that exist above all other regular bugs

[whole holly]

and? both of them still amount to vague connection, both of which are unimpressive, even together, Grey Prince Zote has essence color

[low oracle]

Which metrics and from what source?

[gentle aspen]

you can’t “semi be above all others”

[low oracle]

Which Nyleth does...

[gentle aspen]

she doesn’t

no, she’s a higher being who weakened

semi higher being isn’t a thing

[gentle aspen]

GPZ is a construct

[whole holly]

this is spectrum vs binary discussion all over again, i once argued that Divinity is a spectrum and Higher Beings are on one side of spectrum, mortals are on opposite

[gentle aspen]

furthermore WL is quite aware in the red memory so asserting she has no connection to memories or essence isn’t true

[heavy gyro]

Tbf many bugs are aware of those who pry into their mind

[whole holly]

still, valid point regardless

[gentle aspen]

no, it isn’t. It’s taking the definition we were given by team cherry

[low oracle]

As if a goddamn normal bug could create:
-An entire biome
-Populate said biome with creatures made in their own image
-Put Seth under a spell to eternally be their protector
-Command all creatures they made

[gentle aspen]

It’s not, because GPZ isn’t an autonomous being. It was created by a regular bug on delusions and the essence imprint remained on the statue

[whole holly]

i haven't asserted that, we all know her connection to it is vague and unimpressive

[gentle aspen]

there are magical bugs that aren’t higher beings mate

[low oracle]

Which?

Lets compare

[gentle aspen]

literally every old heart dude

my god

[whole holly]

that doesn't undermine at all, as point relies on unique essence color not being exclusive to higher being, Grey Prince Zote Essence Color proves that, so does Midwife being able to read thoughts

[gentle aspen]

I said BOTH

White Lady has BOTH and is a CONFIRMED HIGHER BEING

[gentle aspen]

and she is AWARE SHE IS IN A MEMORY

stop being pedantic

[low oracle]

Karmelita had her own tribe, which is not the same thing. Her environment is not shaped by her, whatever you mean by that.
Khan and the corals are prolly just bugs that utilize the corals. Hornet can use corals too, doesn't mean she commands their entirety.

[whole holly]

good thing he never said nyleth is a higher being, in fact he conveyed Nyleth being "magical bug" with his own term "semi-higher being"

[gentle aspen]

this is a non existent term

[low oracle]

Are you reading my sentences in reverse? I literally said that not every old heart shapes their environment.

[gentle aspen]

It also isn’t his term people have erroneously claimed this a thing several times

[gentle aspen]

they literally all do

[low oracle]

Far fields and hunters march for example, tell me how.

[gentle aspen]

Karmelita is directly responsible for the continued propagation of far fields

There is explicit dialogue that says this

[low oracle]

Oh my fucking god. I'm asking about the ENVIRONMENT.

[whole holly]

who said she wasn't, my point is her connection to essence was and is insignificant and vague, that was mostly point from beginning, she doesn't use essence which was original point, what is specific thing you found to be pedantic?

[gentle aspen]

No meme gifs

[gentle aspen]

“Insignificant and vague” SHE HAS AN ESSENCE COLOR DIRECTLY TIED TO HER
SHE IS ABLE TO SENSE THINGS OVER LONG DISTANCES AND IS AWARE HER MIND IS BEING ACCESSED
SHE IS AWARE SHE IS IN A MEMORY WITH THE RED MEMORY

[heavy gyro]

This is crazy successful ragebait 😭

[low oracle]

This has to be ragebait.

Nyleth is a higher being.

[whole holly]

who said she wasn't a higher being? diamond first said White Lady doesn't use essence, contrasting White Lady with Unn, Radiance, Nightmare Heart, compared to that White Lady's Essence feats are shared by Grey Prince Zote and Midwife.

[low oracle]

What if I'm not male?

But a clanker

[gentle aspen]

This giant, old ant... Her death seems recent, but her presence here...
Was it her? Could it be? The strength that sustained these caves? > If so, what will happen now?
Hornet: They will wither and fade... And you may sadly know it was my needle that brought her end.

[whole holly]

this is original message that correctly states that White Lady doesn't use essence herself

[left nest]

How come Hornet can't remember her mother's face? There was architecture all over hallownest depicting her mask. She has been to beasts den when she was older, she has been the the black egg, she has been to the hollow knight memorial, and probably has been to resting grounds

[gentle aspen]

herrah’s mask isn’t her face, mate

it’s a mask

she remembers the mask, the blur is to signify she doesn’t remember the face underneath it

[low oracle]

That term is so terribly undefined, we can't say for sure wether it can be taken literally.

[gentle aspen]

and she doesn’t remember because they didn’t spend much time together

[left nest]

Oh okay that makes sense, I thought she was wearing the mask

[gentle aspen]

what the fuck are you even talking about

dreamer masks are masks

we can quite literally see they are masks

[low oracle]

Look at it this way: Do the Vessels have masks?

[gentle aspen]

No
ancient masks strengthen their shell

Mask Maker uses the term mask to represent identity

[whole holly]

Weavers faces are masks as well, Widow is faceless/without a mask

[gentle aspen]

It’s not that complicated

[low oracle]

Do pharlids have masks?

[gentle aspen]

?

[whole holly]

Widows mask was forcibly taken off

[gentle aspen]

She’s not faceless

her metal whatever was ripped off so she wears a covering instead

doesn’t mean she literally has no face

[gentle aspen]

can you just make your claim instead of asking leading questions

[whole holly]

"Her body seemed a Weaver's, but her mask had been forcibly removed, and her own Silk was bound useless by heavy pins lodged through her spine. "

[gentle aspen]

I know, I addressed this
Not having a mask doesn’t mean she doesn’t have a face

Widow’s probably like, physically deformed underneath the covering since she also can’t bind to heal herself

[whole holly]

i assumed she had facial head area without exoskeleton, but i don't think whatever is beneath her mask is a face.

[gentle aspen]

she has eyes and a mouth
that’s a face

[low oracle]

Good. Now I'll connect the dots to make my point. Weavers are just asscended Pharlids. Their "masks" are organical and their face. Underneath they have a "second face", which isn't really something they like showing (Widow).

In addition, removing the mask is very painful. So why would Herrah want her original mask removed? And why would her replacement look th exact same as a Weaver mask? She probably never had her mask removed, and her original ascended-pharlid one us the one we see in the present.

[whole holly]

according to Mask Maker is silksong face is a mask

[gentle aspen]

you’re not meant to take mask maker dialogue literally

[whole holly]

Playing the Needolin : A mask to hide...

A mask to be...
Fresh faces for all...
A land defined...
What greater gift?

[low oracle]

Which would also explain mask makers role: Giving faces to those without. Literally. I think the dialogue was something like "provide masks for those without".

[gentle aspen]

We know the dreamers had masks mate the first game pretty explicitly shows that they had masks

[whole holly]

wdym? you said it is bug's identity which is also HK Mask Maker dialogue

[gentle aspen]

do you know what a metaphor is

[low oracle]

It isn't that hard a concept really...

[gentle aspen]

also read what I said

“Uses the term mask to represent identity”
represent

[whole holly]

you used it as argument against non-metaphor explanation, though

[gentle aspen]

No I didn’t

read what I said

[low oracle]

Yes. Hence: Mask = face

[whole holly]

didn't you said mask is not face?

[low oracle]

It's a question, because obviously she wouldn't want that to happen.

[gentle aspen]

I’m not explaining how metaphors work to you guys

[whole holly]

"Late! Late you are! And already a mask. Already a face. It is for those without that I must carve. "

[gentle aspen]

like, I’m genuinely not going to do this

[low oracle]

Or for those without a face.

[whole holly]

hey, bro we are discussing the dialogue non-metaphorical way, sure it is implicit comparison to identity but we are having material discussion about Dreamers Masks, at least diamond is

[low oracle]

No gifs dude.

[low oracle]

A metaphor that would apply btw:
A mask = A face

[gentle aspen]

that’s not what a metaphor is

[whole holly]

it is, mask is often used as illicit comparison to a face, including in Hollow Knight universe

[gentle aspen]

You literally aren’t
you are saying that masks are literally faces
they’re not for those who already have faces

[low oracle]

No fucking way. Of course it is! You wear a mask on your head, your face is on your head. That's the equivalent of the shell=body. Which is literally stated too, "weaker shell had too rely on their agility" [Hunters Journal, about one of the pilgrims].

[gentle aspen]

metaphors say things are other things
that doesn’t mean the compared things are one and the same

[low oracle]

Hence they can be both. Therefore I said how it was confusing and inconsistently defined which is which.

[whole holly]

there is no reason those things are mutually exclusive, Mask is not exclusively a figure of speech or illicit compassion for identity it can also mean face in literal sense

[gentle aspen]

It isn’t confusing, the instances you claim are confusing aren’t

you bring up vessels and weavers like its confusing what their status is
weavers have faces and masks
vessels don’t wear masks at all

[low oracle]

Then tell me again, do you consider Herrah's mask her actual face? Since you clearly stated that for pharlids.

[gentle aspen]

“You clearly stated that for pharlids” where?????

[whole holly]

there is no reason why we can't materially analyze Dreamer mask, without limiting it to a figure of speech

[gentle aspen]

you’re just making up things I said what the hell

[gentle aspen]

you aren’t analyzing anything you’re just saying “herrah’s mask is her face”

[low oracle]

Nevermind, wasn't you who responded. You didn't respond at all though, which you could do now.

[gentle aspen]

weavers have faces beneath the masks they have, which are a part of their body

The blur is meant to show hornet not remembering the face beneath the dreamer masks all dreamers have

[gentle aspen]

because that is what she has seen a majority of her life

[whole holly]

i didn't say that though, masks are sometimes a face... sometimes they aren't, i do think Dreamer masks are masks in literal sense, but Weaver masks are something that is part of their physiology

@swift needle what are those reactions for, you haven't said anything of substance for a while, just emojis...

[low oracle]

Correct. And the masks are also their faces, and are also completely organic. The blur isn't important to this discussion imo.
And the Dreamer masks argument is crap; Why would Herrah require an identical mask, to the one she is already wearing? Especially when considering the pain attached to replacing/removing it.

[gentle aspen]

“Dreamer mask argument is crap”
what are you even talking about

dreamer masks don’t hurt to remove

now you’re just making things up

...But to recall these words, in time so far... Will you even remember me, child? Could you?...
...A mother... before the mask... before I lay forever in duty...

[whole holly]

Weaver Masks and Ancient Masks suggest that not all masks are external ones that changes bugs identity, Weaver masks are part of their physiology

[gentle aspen]

Herrah is explicitly talking about Hornet remembering her
The blur is Hornet forgetting her features
that isn’t irrelevant

and there’s a very good chance weaver masks are removable without being painful

Widow had their stuff forcibly taken off

And she had metal pins lodged in her spine

[whole holly]

they clearly meant weaver masks, when has Dreamer masks have been stated to hurt to remove, weaver masks have so he could only mean those logically

[gentle aspen]

“when have dreamers masks been stated to remove”
Did you play the game

Monomon’s Mask is literally removable

[whole holly]

i meant this "dreamer masks don’t hurt to remove" when was this stated? or vice versa?

[gentle aspen]

😐

yeah I’m done with this conversation lmao

[whole holly]

you interpreted Dreamer mask removal when only weaver mask removal is implied by game to hurt

[low oracle]

WEAVER MASKS HURT TO REMOVE
HERRAH WOULD NEED HER FUCKING WEAVER MASK REMOVED
ARE YOU EVEN READING WHAT I SAY???

Now excuse my crashout, but I feel you shouldn't respond to arguments when you don't even comprehend them. If you do, reply as such. This is seriously just ragebait.

[shy warren]

Depends on if it's their face

[gentle aspen]

that isn’t implied to hurt

Widow’s was FORCIBLY removed

[shy warren]

It would hurt to get your face ripped off

[gentle aspen]

she wouldn’t need her weaver mask removed what

[shy warren]

Same with masks of hollow knight bugs

[gentle aspen]

And like I said, I’m done with this argument

bye

don’t ping me for it again

[shy warren]

Goodbye and good day/night

[low oracle]

Are you saying she is wearing several masks at once, both of which have far to great volume for that to be physically possible?

Sorry, can't remove ping by editing.

[whole holly]

Weaver masks are part of their physiology so yeah, why would it be harmless?

lol

[shy warren]

Do all weavers have masks as part of their biology?

[whole holly]

all known and assessed weavers, given first sinner ascending scene

[low oracle]

"Forcibly removed" also implies that it had to be forcibly removed. Literally, removed with force.
You couldn't say unforcibly removed, because that would simply default to removed.

Summed up, it is very clearly implied that removing a Weaver's mask isn't something intended.

[shy warren]

Granted that most bugs had or have masks anyway when they have identity

[low oracle]

Not only masks, but armor can also be part of a creatures biology. The Karaka for one die with their armor, which is made of organic coral.
Hegemol likely also had organic armor, as it probably perfectly fitted his shape, also being one of a kind (currently).

[violet wharf]

(Hk spoilers I think) I know it’s not silksong but I need to know why does the ||hollow knight hurt himself||?

[shy warren]

Organic armour in hegemols case sounds like a curse rather than a blessing

[shy warren]

He gains control in those moments, so he tries to fight off the infection from inside him

[violet wharf]

Thank you

[crystal marsh]

unclear, there's many possible explanations

[shy warren]

I don't think there are other explanations, since he isn't insane like the collector or just depressed like how I think the gruz mother is (I think)

[crystal marsh]

i mean they're mentally broken by the Infection

[shy warren]

I guess

[low oracle]

They aren't technically infected, and their own will still exists.
They desire to stop the infection, hence stabbing it when it leaks out. The attacks where the infection does the moves, are also very clearly the Radiance, not the Hollow Knight. Take the one where its body is picked up and smashed on the ground for example. Obviously it wouldn't willingly do such things, but the Radiance manipulates them to do so anyway.

Then why the Hollow Knight attacks you? It was likely trained for that purpose, as there could be potential intruders willing to free the Radiance.

That applies to the Dream No More ending specifically. The dreamnail has the power to cut free the Radiance, even if that aren't the Knight's intentions. If someone had these intentions, their success would be devastating.

Hence the Hollow Knight specifically reacts to the dreamnail by dodging it at any given moment (except for when Hornet prevents it).

[shy warren]

He dodges the dream nail?

[crystal marsh]

this is blatantly wrong

[low oracle]

How so?

[crystal marsh]

the dreamnail cannot remove Radiance from THK's mind, it can only read dreams and cut the veil

[shy warren]

I feel like I should know this but what's the veil

[crystal marsh]

the veil between the physical world and dream realm

[shy warren]

Oh

[low oracle]

Seer tells you that it can be used to cut yourself out of dreams/realms.

[shy warren]

They didn't say that in game (unless I just didn't read it)

[crystal marsh]

yes, the wielder, not anyone else

[low oracle]

Dream Realms are physical though. You can still die in a dream realm. Dreams aren't.

[crystal marsh]

not all dreams are physical, such as the one where Ogrim's dream fight takes place

[shy warren]

No you can't die permanently in steel soul from a dream realm

[low oracle]

The wielder could probably free the Radiance. And the wielder is also the one wielding the dreamnail.

[shy warren]

Why would we free the radiance

[low oracle]

Yes you can, both White Palace and the Radiance bossfight. Lost Kin, Soul Tyrant and Failed Champion are dreams, which is different.

[whole holly]

that has never been physical, Radiance and some significant beings can impact veil of dream and physical ream so making death in dreams count

[shy warren]

I feel like failed champions fight would be a better example since that's one of the first dreams people encounter in hk

[shy warren]

White palace and the radiances arena were both real places however

[low oracle]

Exactly, Dream Realms are real places, whilst dreams aren't.

[shy warren]

Lost kin, soul tyrant and failed champion are the buffed versions that they think they were/are

[shy warren]

Granted dreams happen in the dream realm

[gentle aspen]

we don’t know why we die in the radiance’s dream

[wintry compass]

ok so headcanon for why vespa trained hornet: the hive perhaps wasn't involved in the perpetuation of hallownest,but maybe that switched around when the infection started to take over the hive too, and vespa realised that she needed to act against the radiance

[low oracle]

It doesn't seem to be the same realm, given the clear differences. Besides, the backgrounds are very different.

[gentle aspen]

The infection only took over the Hive after Vespa died

This isn’t true

[gentle aspen]

?

are you genuinely arguing dreams aren’t in the dream realm

[shy warren]

I love when someone isnt thinking that vespa did the breeding stuff to hornet

[gentle aspen]

???????

what???

[shy warren]

Yeahhhhh

[gentle aspen]

no don’t yeah me

[low oracle]

I'm arguing that dreams aren't the same, because one is physical while they aren't. If you disagree, tell me why you can die in dream realms but not in dreams.

[gentle aspen]

Explain what the hell you’re saying

[shy warren]

Nightmares happen in the nightmare realm

[whole holly]

... still Dreams and Dream Realm is same, i offered alternative explanation

[terse warren]

I JUST opened the channel man

[shy warren]

So why don't dreams

[low oracle]

How does this have any relevance?

[gentle aspen]

the explanation doesn’t really work because the radiance doesn’t kill us in godhome

[shy warren]

Because dreams and nightmares are both not physical

[gentle aspen]

it isn’t just a matter of significant beings

[low oracle]

Godhome is something so entirely different, we can't really argument with it.

[low oracle]

But Dream REALMS are.

[wintry compass]

oh

missed that then

goddamnit

[shy warren]

Don't we say that irl dreams happen in some "dream realm" too

Both not physical

[gentle aspen]

Dreams are within the dream realm, you’re making a distinction where there is none

[wintry compass]

the what????

[shy warren]

Neither in hk

[terse warren]

Irl isn't in hollow knight

[whole holly]

it could be Godseeker's doing, if the wants Knight to try again, they are kinda curious about the process, while Radiance wants to kill us and White Palace wants the intruders to Die

[shy warren]

Yeah but like I'm making a point

[low oracle]

Huh??? How does irl even add to anything?

[shy warren]

Dream realm is where dreams happen

[trail wagon]

Is steel soul mode canon? like the cocoons and everything had to have been experienced by hornet atleast once.. so like in other games, in which Ironman run(no death run) would be canon because the protag shouldn't die..

[terse warren]

You can't base your point off of real life because it's not in real life

[terse warren]

A bit of both

[shy warren]

I thought it would be understood more

[terse warren]

Steel soul is canon but NPCs from main mode seem to be alive in-lore

[crystal marsh]

It's not any more or less canon than the normal mode

[low oracle]

But at the same time, Godhome is a dream realm seemingly leading into dreams (the pantheons).
Besides, the Dream Ghosts (Lost Kin) want us dead too.

[terse warren]

Like, Styx is dead in Steel Soul and replaced by Skynx but in "Canon" both would be alive

[crystal marsh]

Incorrect; SS and regular NPCs are both alive canonically

[terse warren]

Kinda like in HK1

[terse warren]

It's literally what I said

You just repeated what I said

[low oracle]

Somewhat, but since every ending is canon that applies to the modes as well. There isn't one correct lore.

[whole holly]

Lost Kin doesn't want us dead really, he justs wants to fight and for us to put his spirit to rest

in first game Essence is implied to make up Spirit Glade, it seems to make up spirits

[shy warren]

Granted I think you'd want someone dead if they entered your dreams and headspace unconsentingly

[low oracle]

I meant Lost Kin to make clear I wasn't referring to Xero. A better example would be Soul Tyrant, who for sure wants us dead. Lost Kin does too, as it is piloted by the Infection. You don't actually beat Lost Kin, you just defeat the infection within it.

[shy warren]

Isn't this supposed to be in #hk-lore

[low oracle]

I don't use that chat, as it prevents me from making arguments involving all lore.

[whole holly]

Broken Vessel is one with Infection, his spirit is put to rest after the Lost Kin fight which lost kin appreciates

[shy warren]

It does?

[low oracle]

Mask discussion for example, as [Pharlid -> Weaver] proves that masks can be organic.

[shy warren]

Well I mean organic stuff is creepy either way, especially organic clothing

[gentle aspen]

…

[shy warren]

Just mute him, mod

[whole holly]

Radiance can influence veil between Waking and Dream Realm, so can Pale King presumably, they are both higher being so it is not unwarranted at all

[whole holly]

although this is technically speculation, Beacon and Infection somewhat suggest it

[kindred ingot]

what's the topic today?

[shy warren]

hollow knight and not silksong for some reason

[kindred ingot]

uh... what about Hollow Knight?

[shy warren]

Dreams

[kindred ingot]

uh... ok

[velvet trail]

I know it's very very late for me to say this, but I only just now found out that @whole marsh , @fiery knot and @magic isle shared my Silksong ||Abyss|| Lore video here, so I just wanted to personally thank them for that! ❤️ ❤️ ❤️
I'm really glad you liked it, and decided to share it! 🥺

(Again, sorry that I'm like months late, I just literally only found out now)

[fiery knot]

Well it was a great video! It was a perfect starter for people who had just gotten into act 3 and were learning the lore

[twin dragon]

Can gms do that doe?

[whole holly]

we don't know, not can we even theorize based on it, only speculate since we have zero information

[twin dragon]

She can tie bugs under her will with the haunting

That could imply something but we don't have essence

[gentle aspen]

Thats a result of the silk within their shells

[whole holly]

yeah, that's form of Soul manipulation if anything, we don't know if her Silk Heart memories is form of Dream Manipulation.

[twin dragon]

Yes, but it does have some form of mind control over the bugs

even if they keep doing their tasks for eternity

[whole holly]

it is more of influencing their will rather than taking control over their minds and unifying it into hivemind

[twin dragon]

It is a hivemind iirc, check the unravelled silk heart dialogue

[whole holly]

it is still will-based than mind based, but i would argue it affects bugs differently than infection, "Hivemind" is byproduct as they are first snared to serve

[twin dragon]

Yes it is different to the infection, gms doesn't knock on your mind unlike radiance

[whole holly]

Smokerock Sifter Hunter's Journal entry: "The Haunting has stolen some important part of these bugs, yet still they attempt their former task. Until, that is, they sense my presence..."

[whole holly]

hence why it is not mind manipulation at it's basis, at least

[twin dragon]

Haunted bugs are mostly dead i guess

Will is mind based..

[whole holly]

no will to break, no mind to think, no voice to cry suffering

[whole holly]

well not it team cherry's universe

[twin dragon]

I love how this is partly wrong

as vessels do, indeed, have a mind to think

[whole holly]

i am not sure about quote i am paraphrasing

[twin dragon]

It is

[whole holly]

they still have will too, but point is that they are separate, even despite how reduce it is, in HK universe they are different things

[whole holly]

"no will to break, no mind to think, no voice to cry suffering" dialogue states they are separate

[twin dragon]

They're not the same thing but they're tied

You can't have a will without a mind

Will is a weird abstract concept in TC doe

[whole holly]

you can't speak without mind too, mind is required to form words, even in bug has voice, right, nobody says they aren't interconnected, just that GMS snaring wills to serve them is not same as Radiance infecting minds for hivemind, one is Soul/Silk-related as game implies, one is essence-based.

[whole holly]

where it this from, it might not be literal

[twin dragon]

Soul and essence are pretty tightly connected

[whole holly]

*vaguely

[twin dragon]

Unravelled silk heart

[twin dragon]

Vaguely explained yeah

[whole holly]

is that from GMS's perspective?

[twin dragon]

But they are closely related concepts

[twin dragon]

Silk hearts are assumed to be her yeah

also why is she "us"

[whole holly]

i mean they are both present with Life yeah

[twin dragon]

Which is probably how silk can "reacreate" memories from other bugs

with elegy of the deep

[whole holly]

GMS is one mind and will, every snared and haunted bug serves, they are united for her but not necessarily bidirectional like Radiance's Infection is

[whole holly]

it makes sense for Soul and Essence power to both access Memories for various reasons

[twin dragon]

Silk doesn't bridge that gap

[whole holly]

i still wouldn't say it is a Hivemind

[twin dragon]

Silk kinda just does it

But elegy of the deep is shaman bullshit magic

And in fact, it's more so song related

than silk

[twin dragon]

The bugs afflicted with the haunting seem to be granted a second wind of some sorts, as they act similarly to how they would if they were to be alive

makes sense because, yk, soul is lifeforce

But those bugs are also now tied to gms due to this fact

[whole holly]

one is basic memory reconstruction(Needolin), other is Shaman Spell(Elegy of the Deep)

[whole holly]

true

[whole holly]

Exactly my point

[twin dragon]

shaman song

And needolin probably makes the bugs sing out its mind

[whole holly]

yeah it has no effect where silk is not really present

[whole holly]

shaman song spell

[twin dragon]

Or, yk, essence fragments are extracted from the silk manipulation induced by the needolin

[whole holly]

yeah, it is weak indirect manipulation, because you will never convince me that Fayforn doesn't think

[twin dragon]

Or maybe they just ignore it yk

[whole holly]

or Shakra's Master has no thoughts, or Greyroot and so on

[whole holly]

not really, we can't access it

[twin dragon]

Shakra's master might be an oversight

and grayroot is the least sentient of sentient things you can get

[whole holly]

lol no

[whole holly]

no to that too, they have no silk

[twin dragon]

Yeah, grayroot is purely driven by instinct

[twin dragon]

It wouldn't make sense since she's been in pharloom

she 100% ingested it one way or another

[whole holly]

ehh, maybe not enough for her to get snared in silk or something like that

[twin dragon]

You.. say that again...?

[twin dragon]

Shakra does have silk seemingly

[whole holly]

idk, whatever process makes Needolin give us thoughts

[twin dragon]

that or she willingly choses to sing along

[whole holly]

she has been in Pharloom

[whole holly]

i mean i don't mean haunted by you know how silk is in bodies of bugs? that's how they get snared apparently

[twin dragon]

Hence why

[whole holly]

lol

[twin dragon]

you don't get it do you?

[whole holly]

i did get it, i hoped that you weren't making that joke

[twin dragon]

Snared silk mentioned

[whole holly]

so isn't it interesting that No mind to think(infection immunity) No will to break (haunting immunity) to voice to cry (Sorrow immunity) next antagonistic force of hollow knight franchise will be Lifeblood

Birthplace memory is foreshadowing...

next antagonistic force will be Terror of Sleep(Nightmares) or Sorrows(Lifeblood), either can make person cry

[twin dragon]

you and fucking lifeblood

stop

[twin dragon]

And the infection DOES break your will aswell

[whole holly]

no, i won't, we need more, more, more...

[twin dragon]

Radiance takes over

so all of it is referencing the infection

hk players when no dlc

[whole holly]

yeah but if we interpret antagonistic forces across HK universe and their main effects

[twin dragon]

Eh, i'd say the infection and the haunting are very similar in what they do

[whole holly]

calm down dude

[twin dragon]

what

[whole holly]

on surface level yes

[twin dragon]

oh

[hybrid spoke]

[twin dragon]

Yeah YOU and that FUCKING lifeblood

I never want to see you together again

break up

[whole holly]

so, you want me to feel Sorrowful?

[twin dragon]

https://tenor.com/view/thk-the-hollow-knight-hk-hollow-knight-what-did-you-say-gif-3970988976072654019

[twin dragon]

I mean their goals are slightly different

i guess?

[whole holly]

no mind to think... no will to break... no voice to cry out suffering... no lifeblood to calm our sorrows

[twin dragon]

One wants worship the other one wants to erase PK's legacy

[twin dragon]

https://tenor.com/view/idfk-gif-3761179052566277881

[whole holly]

drink some plasmium and chill

[whole holly]

other also wants ownership though, but point is mechanism is different

[twin dragon]

Kinda but that's not the main thing i'd say

also we LITERALLY have haunting victims we can talk to

[whole holly]

Former but yes, kinda proves my point

[twin dragon]

They remember it still

[whole holly]

Yeah yeah 👍

I don’t even care anymore

[twin dragon]

[whole holly]

Just Lifeblood

[twin dragon]

ok buddy

[whole holly]

That’s how I feel whenever you bring up similarities between haunting and infection

[twin dragon]

IIrc radiance makes your mind a blank slate while gms inserts her own thoughts into you

[twin dragon]

they are similar whether you like it or not

[whole holly]

No radiance inserts thought too myla is victim of that

[whole holly]

Symptoms, Mechanism, Spread and Stages are all different buddy, at least compare… lifeblood

[twin dragon]

True but not in the same way

[twin dragon]

the essence of it remains the same

[whole holly]

I guess

[twin dragon]

Actually kind of a batshit ass poke at nothing here but

[whole holly]

That’s because they serve similar narrative purpose in game so player can fight against it

[twin dragon]

what if claiming a silk heart feels like being haunted

[whole holly]

Bell Beast and Unravelled suggest it, I am not sure about lace

[twin dragon]

Pavo describes sorrowful memories

Could make sense

[whole holly]

Sorrow? As in Sea of Sorrows? Pavo is plasmified?

[twin dragon]

Lowkey grab a weapon or anything im coming for you

[whole holly]

Try little bro

[twin dragon]

Bet

[whole holly]

lil bro thinks he can fight, try harder little bro, maybe start taking plasmium

[twin dragon]

Im gonna nuke the sea of sorrow

[whole holly]

lol, I get why you don’t like it but it mainly won’t be about Lifeblood, most likely going to remain a small but important part of it

[twin dragon]

its all lifeblood

i was there

[whole holly]

Okay then great

lol

[twin dragon]

no

bad

[whole holly]

Fine…

Team cherry will find a way to disappoint and also pleasantly surprise audience

[twin dragon]

Looking at it that way everything ever dissapoints

Gotta pick

[median forge]

Is there like any lore about the surface

[sinful nimbus]

don't think so?

what you see with the surface is kinda what you get tbh

[spark valve]

It’s a bit surface level

[limpid summit]

Silksong didn’t bring much new info to the surface

[sinful nimbus]

Kinda just a wasteland with some kingdoms dotted about

Nameless Town was a settlement that eventually had its residents lured down to join the Citadel by the Weavers

[harsh lark]

question: is the abyss under everything or did the abyss move from under hallownest to under pharloom, in which case the 5th ending of hk is cannon?

[limpid summit]

Under everything

The embrace the void ending and dream no more one both might be canon

Hornet says “void below all things”

[harsh lark]

when does she say that?

[limpid summit]

But always, child, I remain a daughter of Hallownest. And the void below all things, that darkness I will fear no longer...

Last line in the game

[harsh lark]

ok

thx

[gritty bluff]

Guys hear me out

[kindred ingot]

The Pale King right before explaining his plan to the Dreamers:

[left nest]

Sawblades

[gritty bluff]

Wait I actually have a theory

[kindred ingot]

okay, go on, The Real Pale King

[gritty bluff]

So you know how Pilby is afraid to go to the Citadel

Because he’s scared of the challenges that come with the trek

But what if Pilby committed a felony against the Citadel

That’s why he’s afraid to go to the Citadel

This is stupid isn’t it

[heavy sail]

Let bro cook

[kindred ingot]

well...

what would Pilby even do?

[left nest]

Is this a theory or a headcanon?

[heavy sail]

Tax evasion

[kindred ingot]

he's just a little pilgrim

[kindred ingot]

he said theory

[left nest]

I like the idea of it but I don't see anything in the game that really points to that

[left nest]

Oh

[kindred ingot]

not stupid, just needs more evidence

[gritty bluff]

Yay

[kindred ingot]

speaking of stupid, I have a question

[gritty bluff]

I’m just thinking tho what if this is true

[gritty bluff]

What if there is tho?

[kindred ingot]

what the FUCK is the Everbloom?

[left nest]

A delicate flower of some sorts..

[kindred ingot]

and what ARE delicate flowers?

[heavy sail]

What if he disapears after some time to run away from pharloom to avoid the citadel

[kindred ingot]

what's with those flowers, why do they show up in memories, and how can they destroy the Void?

[left nest]

We have no idea tbf, I was hoping they'd get answered in base game silksong but this game was just as vague as in hk

[kindred ingot]

well, I'll be dammed then

[gritty bluff]

Let bro cook

[kindred ingot]

all we know is that it can destroy Void and comes from memories

and that some of them are very delicate

[gritty bluff]

Yo wanna lowkirkuinely be friends

[kindred ingot]

and considering it's white and glows, it might be Pale

which means Soul

[gritty bluff]

AYO I’m pale as well

[heavy sail]

Sure

[kindred ingot]

...do memories have anything to do with Soul?

[gritty bluff]

Yay

[kindred ingot]

I mean, a Pale flower came from a memory, and we take the hearts from memories, and hearts are where the Soul is (I think)

[left nest]

We have no idea

[kindred ingot]

dreams - something to do with Soul, are accessed with a special item, creates stronger, "dream" versions of bugs, physical objects can be stored inside them
memories - something to do with Soul, are accessed with a special song, can only replicate real events, physical objects can be taken from them

[left nest]

Dream nail gives you soul when you dream nail something

[kindred ingot]

dreams - made of Essence
memories - made of Silk?

[kindred ingot]

oh yeah, true

[gentle aspen]

dreams have something to do with soul
The dream we’re cast into is in between body and soul and the dream nail gets you soul

[kindred ingot]

I forgot about that

[gentle aspen]

This dichotomy is also yknow false?

[left nest]

Silk is actually the most versatile substance in this game, I don't think they're made of silk per se but they can be accessed through them

[kindred ingot]

?

[gentle aspen]

memories are dreams

first game pretty clearly outlines thjs

[kindred ingot]

...I'm pretty sure they're not

they're memories

like, literally

[gentle aspen]

which you can access using the dream nail

[kindred ingot]

dreams are a whole reality

[kindred ingot]

...no?

[gentle aspen]

what do you mean no

did you play the game?

[kindred ingot]

please tell me when this happened

[gentle aspen]

Did you ever get void heart

[kindred ingot]

OH, I completely forgot about that

[gentle aspen]

Seer literally talks about memories all the time too

[kindred ingot]

ok, so, dreams can be used to access memories

but memories can't be used to access dreams

...I think

a dream that is also a memory is a very rare thing, with only 1 current example of it

[spark valve]

No it’s not remotely rare

[gentle aspen]

Thats not true

[spark valve]

Seer calls dreams memories over and over and over and over

[gentle aspen]

I literally told you seer speaks on memories literally all the time

[kindred ingot]

wait, does she?

I forgor her dialogue

[gentle aspen]

This kingdom is full of old memories, both beautiful and grotesque. Seek them out, reveal them, and gather Essence.

[kindred ingot]

ok, so dreams are memories

but also not

some dreams are another dimension

most are just memories

[gentle aspen]

No???

They’re all dream realm stuff

It’s all essence bro

[gentle aspen]

Plucked from one of my most precious memories, this Charm will bring you and the Dream Nail closer together still.

[kindred ingot]

another dimension

or Realm, if you prefer that term

[gentle aspen]

"some dreams are in another dimension"
all dreams are tied to the dream realm

its not "some"

[kindred ingot]

yeah but some of them are memories while others are full-on other dimensions

[gentle aspen]

????

[spark valve]

Both of them are in the dream expanse

[kindred ingot]

that either means memories themselves are other dimensions (with I think they're not), or that there are 2 types of dreams

[spark valve]

Dream expanse is a mental realm
Memories are mental constructs
Therefore
They are in the dream expanse

[left nest]

Do you mean that some dreams essentially take place in new worlds different from a basic dream realm? Or something like that? I think i see what you're getting at

[kindred ingot]

the dream warriors are memories, GPZ isn't

[gentle aspen]

they’re all in the dream expanse some just have the knight delve into it

[left nest]

While still in the dream realm*

[kindred ingot]

yeah, pretty much

[left nest]

I think its supposed to be similar to just when someone dreams up a new world in their mind, although it very clearly still takes place in the dream realm, if that makes sense

I don't think that means there are different types of dreams just that it can be used for different purposes

One of them being memories

Its all incredibly vague, maybe its not meant to be thought about this deeply

Yet such is the work of the Fandom I suppose

[spark valve]

They’re mental spaces, which encompasses both direct memories and imagination

[left nest]

Yeah that

[kindred ingot]

I made a Venn Diagram to try to explain my idea

[left nest]

I think i get it but I think it all just stems from the dream realm and dreams itself

Like some dreams are just memories, some are imaginative worlds, and some are so strong they branch out through the veil into our world, or are stolen from dreams and brought here

[kindred ingot]

also Godhome is blue

[left nest]

It doesn't exactly have to be a whole different concept

[kindred ingot]

but White Defender is purple

[kindred ingot]

hm... intersting

so memories are just weird dreams

[left nest]

I suppose? Memories aren't exactly events just snapshotted and saved in your mind, they're your recap of them

So that very well could apply in silksong too, where memories are just dreams that you can invade and tamper with

[spark valve]

Lost verdania behaves exactly like that

Same with palestag being mythologized

[kindred ingot]

wait, there's one more thing
memories can affect the real world
killing someone in a memory also kills them in real life

[left nest]

You quite literally crushed their dreams (haha)

[kindred ingot]

also, you can take things from memories (although you can also take things from dreams in one specific circumstance)

[spark valve]

Which also happens in some dreams but that’s because of hornet stealing their power not just fighting them

And you can take things from dreams it happens several times

More than ss memories

[kindred ingot]

it does? every character we fight in dreams either was already dead or survived it

[spark valve]

nkg

[kindred ingot]

it only happens with the White Fragment, right?

[spark valve]

No

Dream wielder an arcane egg lifeblood core

[kindred ingot]

I'm not counting him or Radiance, cuz they're Higher Beings that exist solely in the Dream Realm

[kindred ingot]

oh, yeah, those

[spark valve]

Grimm is not

[left nest]

Yeah but dream bosses are figments created in the dream realm in a sense

[kindred ingot]

nkg is

[gentle aspen]

well, no.

[spark valve]

Nkg is grimm

[kindred ingot]

I'd argue that Grimm doesn't really "exist" in the real world, he's more of an avatar (he's summoned from a dream, only interacts with dreams, is fed by dreams, and dies in a dream)

[spark valve]

Grimm exists in the real world

[kindred ingot]

and he can kill you in the real world the same way Radiance can

they're Higher Beings, they can just do that

[spark valve]

The grimm fight in a dream can’t kill yiu

[kindred ingot]

...ok, that is true

[spark valve]

The physical grimm fight is in the real world and can

[kindred ingot]

and weird

[spark valve]

It’s not weird

He has no reason to go for the kill even if he could

[kindred ingot]

so, he doesn't kill us cuz he doesn't want to

[left nest]

He needs you to beat him so the grimmchild can usurp him as the nightmare king when it grows

[kindred ingot]

well, back to memory stuff

could the Knight access a memory using the Dream Nail?

[left nest]

Yeah he does that in birthplace

And in a sense path of pain?

[spark valve]

Path of pain is a weird case but sort of

The memory is still in the dream accessed via the kingsmould in palace grounds

[kindred ingot]

okay but could Hornet access a dream with Elegy of the Deep?

[spark valve]

She does

[kindred ingot]

...does she?

[spark valve]

Yes

Memories are dreams

[kindred ingot]

...I know

but

[left nest]

Just.. assume silk can do literally anything

[kindred ingot]

could Hornet access a Hallownest dream with Elegy of the Deep?

[left nest]

Because silk can do literally anything

[kindred ingot]

could she fight Radiance if she played the needolin during THK's fight?

[left nest]

Probably

[kindred ingot]

could she see dream warriors with it?

[left nest]

Like even when she enters a memory that's still entering someone's mind

[left nest]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[kindred ingot]

ok, so the needolin is just a weird Dream Nail

and the Snail Shamans can "use it", in a way

they can sing the Elegy of the Deep

which also helps my "memories have something to do with Soul" interpretation

[left nest]

You might be right about that then

[solid nexus]

How exactly does the needolin work does it interfere with the soul using silk or does it manipulate the silk to force them to sing

[limpid summit]

Latter

It plays the strings of haunted bugs and forces them to sing

NPCs and non haunted enemies just decide to sing along

[left nest]

Pavo my goat

[gentle aspen]

Dreams are tied to someone’s body, and therefore their soul

[burnt walrus]

Is karmelita only so hard cause she hardcore self glazed in her memories

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet doesn't seem to think so

This graceful ruler once possessed skill to rival my own. At her youthful peak, her voice united all Skarr in her service.

[limpid summit]

Peak slander 😭

Karmelita dreamed up her own prime so Hornet would Feel Bad

[silk dirge]

why doesnt hornet use elegy of the deep to incept ideas into bugs is she stupid or smth

[sinful nimbus]

(it didn't work)

[spark valve]

that is what she's doing while constructing lost verdania duh

[rigid valley]

l

[marble oasis]

hornet made up lost verdania specifically to have an excuse to kill gp

[dull leaf]

Hi

[edgy nebula]

what if all of silksong was just some random bug going into hornet’s memories and thats why act 3 has so many retcons

hornet in the real world is just old and has dementia

[rustic finch]

Very silly connection but Crust king kahnn and Lord fool look pretty similar

[stiff vector]

Is Lord Fool's corpse bigger though?

[edgy nebula]

theyre roughly the same size

khann might be a bit bigger

[bright monolith]

hi

[graceful grail]

Ah man, i cant send the pics fir my question 😢 see ya after i get enough messages

[true musk]

https://tenor.com/view/monkey-lion-thinking-ragebait-rage-bait-monkey-gif-14090242814517187668

[rigid mica]

Hey gng, can someone explain what happened to verdania and the green prince? Why was he locked up in sinner’s road and why was verdania “destined to be forgotten” (I’m not afraid of spoilers please tell me everything)

[limpid summit]

The Green Prince and his lover ruler Verdania, his lover went to make a truce with the Conductors after they encroached on Verdania territory

The conductors killed him and split his soul, putting them in the dancers

Green Prince was jailed and could have easily broken out (he wasn’t even put in the Slab) but he was too full of grief to go fight the Citadel or protect his people so he stayed in the cage

[glacial warren]

Verdania was essentially wiped out and the Memorium made a ‘Verdania Exhibit’, but they couldn’t figure out how to sustain and mimic Verdania’s unique ecosystem, so all the life there died out.

[limpid summit]

^This

[glacial warren]

All that remains of the exhibit is the iconic red thorns and green clovers, but all their attempts to revive the fauna ended in failure.

[forest lynx]

would craggler taste like a sour crab due to the acid it spits or just like a regular crab or something else entirely? would the shell turn red as you cook it?

[limpid summit]

I think this is up to your interpretation

[glacial warren]

Well it would taste like death since the acid would melt through your body and likely liquefy you into a soup.

[forest lynx]

no but it hurts hornet because it’s spit at her and not that much because of the acid

also like we eat lemons and those coild melt a small bug

[glacial warren]

well yes it hurts because it is in fact a high-density corrosive, not because of the velocity it’s being shot at. It’s a corrosive potent enough to significantly wound a Demigod, keep in mind.

[forest lynx]

yeah but she’s small

also you could just remove the acid gland before cooking

what would the baby cragglers taste like?

[glacial warren]

Well yes but she’s pretty resilient compared to the average mortal and still one glob of that thing’s acid hitting her burns enough to do heavy Damage.

[forest lynx]

probably like lemony crab because the acid isnt strong enough yet

[glacial warren]

Actually it does not come from a gland. The Journal entry states it stores all that corrosive inside its cavernous stomach. It’s essentially spitting out its own digestive juices at everything around it and melting them down.

If you were to try cooking it, you’d need to likely remove the inner stomach and very carefully not let it rupture, or else you are very very ded.

But hey Lugoli was able to cook Muckmaggots so anything’s possible.

[stray fog]

Does the lore channel not have image perms for everyone

I think it needs that

[forest lynx]

idk maybe it would taste like crab

wait what tf does the craggler eat

[glacial warren]

Anything it melts down via the gratuitous corrosive it expels.

Essentially it hunts by ceiling clinging and waiting until it spots prey passing below. If the prey does not either sprint past or find cover, it’ll be drenched in acid and rapidly melt into sludge, which the Craggler then likely drinks.

[forest lynx]

how it’s literally stuck to the ceiling

[glacial warren]

It likely scuttles down if it realizes the coast is clear, then scuttles back up the nearest wall or surface after it finishes.

[graceful grail]

Can Hornet only bind to corpses in Pharloom because of the silk in their bodys??

Also, the same candles are at Failed Champion in HK

Also, what bug is the reaper

[limpid summit]

Reapers got a generic bug body I guess it looks sort of like a silk snipper

[limpid summit]

You speak of their crest? That signifier of a bug's essence and their invisible yoke born through a lifetime.

Crests can be bound from bugs who have significant identities

[bronze pumice]

Its definitely the bug with the big scissors

[limpid summit]

But like I don’t know could you bind Beast Crest from a dead Moorwing or something

Maybe

Probably not

But they aren’t exclusive to the bearers we see

It’s just gameplay that those corpses have identity significance enough to be crests

Like how all the HK bosses somehow have godly resonance

[graceful grail]

I think hornet can only do it now because of the silk in their bodys. Thats why she cant in Hallownest

[stray fog]

I think that bug needs to have a community centred around it?
That explains why all the crests are from chapels

And all chapel needolin dialogues are about remembrance of a particulars community

[limpid summit]

Eh

I suppose that’s a common thread

[stray fog]

Crests are memory related

[graceful grail]

Could Hornet bind this??

[stray fog]

I think so

[muted lantern]

Based on the reapers needolin dialogue he was likely one of the farmers that grew crops in greymoor while it was still farmland and before it became a silk recycling colony.

[graceful grail]

I think not because no silk in him

[stray fog]

Did the shamans have silk in them?

I don't think the conductors could have kidnapped a shaman to inject them with silk

[graceful grail]

The one hornet binds to leeks silk im pretty sure

See, silk at top

Its spewing out of the shell

So, thats why she probably cant just bind to stuff elsewhere

[low steppe]

why does Nyleth have a mask?

The only other plant enemy I can think of in Silksong is Gahlia

and it uses its mask to frighten potential threats

What does Nyleth have to frighten off?

[muted lantern]

Isma also wears a mask, they might be similar creatures. both become one with the environment.

[low steppe]

I suppose it’s unclear whether Isma is a plant or bug

[muted lantern]

She seems to be some kind of plant person

[low steppe]

Isma at least actually had to act like a person to work with the Pale Court

[muted lantern]

she turns into a big mass of vines after death

[low steppe]

Nyleth just was there

Ambiently doing her thing

what use does she have for talking to people?

[graceful grail]

A mask also defines you.

[low steppe]

That does make sense

[graceful grail]

If nyleth is a plant, how is sister splinter her sister if she is an insect???

[low steppe]

Sister splinter is my sister actually

[graceful grail]

Imposing old INSECT nesting in the heights of Shellwood. Her command of twig and branch ensured no pilgrim ever survived her territory.

[low steppe]

why did Sister Splinter do allat

rude

[limpid summit]

Nyleth ain’t her sis

“Sisters sisters so long gone” could be a couple things

It could be in response to the family dynamic of the splintered

“Brother brother come and play” or something

But it could also be the Weavers

Considering her dnd is all about previous rulers and her own rule

She’s just calling them sisters cause they were a sisterhood

Like nuns

But actual sisters as well

[graceful grail]

Soo, did she have a plant parasite??

Or is this supposed to be Nyleths return??

She also can controll plants but she is a insect…

[manic briar]

Someone dies if I remember right

[muted lantern]

do we have any sense of the grand gourmands gender? mergwin uses they/them for them but hornet uses he/him. It could be hornet assuming as she hasnt met them but she doesnt do that often i don't think.

[manic briar]

I always thought Gourmand was female, I think it's either Hornet just assuming or TC magically letting Hornet know Gourmand's gender

[muted lantern]

hmm, well for female we get no indication. We only get they/them and he/him used for them

[shell magnet]

Ngl for the gourmand I always thought of the rain world character

[muted lantern]

Honestly im pretty sure the gourmand is just some conductors pet, its needolin dialogue implies its just an animal, or at least a creature that isnt very intelligent.

[left nest]

But very very grand

[spiral rose]

how dare you call gourmand not very intelligent

[ember river]

His thoughts are above yours, that's why you can't understand him

[past wadi]

During the Nyleth fight, she uses thorns, but doesn't Nyleth represent flowers and peace?

[dire lynx]

whats the saying, "every rose has its thorns" or something?

[muted lantern]

What unn said but also she's just a general nature being, the whole shell wood is basically a result of her.

[twin dragon]

It's soul

[dire lynx]

silk is soul

[past wadi]

Oh

[twin dragon]

The silk extracted from the shaman is the shaman's soul converted into silk through hornet

[tawdry flare]

Nuh uh, silk is a manifestation of soul

[dire lynx]

so its soul

[tawdry flare]

That’s like saying that peanut butter is peanuts

[dire lynx]

its more like saying ice is water

(it is)

[graceful grail]

My PRECIOUS Lore Harp is in the background 😢

[hidden crater]

What no dlc does to a mf

[graceful grail]

I like how they took the time to put it in there, but in a place where you can’t reach it…

[oak palm]

I think it's either that and Mergwin is off his rocker or the great gourmand just kind of has went mad because of hunger

[wooden nova]

Hornet likes fluffy

[wintry robin]

But would still off them for defense

[hidden crater]

no

fluffy good

[wintry robin]

Hornet specified she's glad the flea was able to become sane back before dealing the final blow

• she killed many fluffy enemies

[marble oasis]

when does hornet use he/him?

Hornet: I have more pressing tasks, sir. Perhaps your master should content themself with a humbler meal?

she calls mergwin sir

Promise it as reward, and your master shall have his meal.

hmm, interesting

this must be an oversight

[muted lantern]

Darn and just as I sifted through the text to send you the line lol

But yeah it's odd right? It could be an oversight. Gourmand is only referred to with they/them otherwise

[crystal urchin]

Guys what if Seth, is Quirrel?

[muted lantern]

They aren't literally the same person but they have parralels in their arcs.

Mostly bc memory loss shenanigans

Or more accurate their arcs have opposite trajectory

[marble oasis]

jack vine fighting against woke cherry to counteract one (1) nonbinary pronoun

[muted lantern]

Who the hell is Jack vine

[marble oasis]

the music guy i think

[onyx pawn]

Technical director

(Yes, I remember all of them)

[marble oasis]

theres three of them don't pat yourself on the back too hard

okay im sorry

[crystal urchin]

Ok but think about it. Quirrels last moments (Most likely) were next to a lake. Seth's first memories were by a lake with a weapon by his side. The same weapon we see in HK at the Blue Lake.

[marble oasis]

its not the same weapon?

[crystal urchin]

Yea Ig

Guys crazy theory, Shrine Guardian Seth, is actually Fleatopia Seth

🔥 Hill I'm willing to die on

[formal valley]

Music guy is cristopher larkin

Also i found the connection between more eyes and hunting

So if you look in real life

If you more eyes, than you hunt more

[weak ermine]

Guys whats the lore behind me

[formal valley]

Like dragonflies, mantis etc

So thats all

[formal valley]

Lost dumbass postman

[weak ermine]

Thats so rude

[formal valley]

Deliver them yourself

I lost my mind while trying to deliver them all

Especially mask maker and gourmand tasks

[marble flume]

[pliant meadow]

I liked mask maker

[fossil panther]

Sherma is the radiance theory

[shy warren]

Mask maker has a quest in silso?

[pliant meadow]

Well yeah with Pharloom's mask maker

[shy warren]

Oh

[low oracle]

Nope, silk is soul spun to thread. It is literally a form of soul.

[low oracle]

You can literally fly and yet you couldn't deliver couriers rashers.

[whole holly]

Radiance's design and theme was more emotionally resonant than Grand Mother Silk's, i was somewhat underwhelmed, lore too

[twin dragon]

Imo radiance is a much worse antagonist that mommy silk

[whole holly]

as antagonist she is more impactful and endings are emotionally resonant, her theme is inferior

[twin dragon]

Not really

thematically also much better than radiance

[whole holly]

are we debating opinions, dude...

[twin dragon]

You are stating them as facts

[whole holly]

i don't need to state that it is opinion, because it is inherently subjective

[twin dragon]

Don't forget the IMO, still

[whole holly]

anyways Grand Mother Silk fight was easy, it is recycled radiance with silk theme, game progress was too linear and so on

[twin dragon]

God forbid a boss uses horizontal needle attacks

And HK is much more linear

[whole holly]

are you trying to state exact opposite of my opinion? dude....

[twin dragon]

Why are you stating the opposite of MY opinion?

[edgy nebula]

hk was much less linear than silksong

[whole holly]

Grand Mother Silk was lame, Radiance's Second Phase was cool, Grand Mother Silk didn't even get title card and Nightmare King Grimm did

[edgy nebula]

Mainly because 100% of the time they tell you what to do in the quest menu

[fading oracle]

I would agree hk is linear compared to silksong

[twin dragon]

Did you play the game

Didn't get a title card

💔

[whole holly]

i am stating my opinion first

[kindred ingot]

Grand Mother Silk did get a title card, it's just that Silksong has different title cards

[twin dragon]

Mechanically gms tops radiance, unfortunately she's a tad bit too easy

Radiance is a shit boss she recycles attacks from dream warriors

roided dream warrior

[whole holly]

it is white text at the bottom, unlike Radiance's title card that takes up screen

[twin dragon]

That is ragebait btw I still somewhat like the radiance

[kindred ingot]

it's not at the bottom

[twin dragon]

It's not..?

It is where your eyes should be

[fading oracle]

I dont think nika has played the game dawg

[whole holly]

we see Silksong's title cards at bottom white text in godhome, Absolute Radiance has better Title card

[kindred ingot]

???

[twin dragon]

what

[whole holly]

i forgot that detail considering most boss titles are at bottom, i wasn't even phased

[kindred ingot]

what are you even talking about?

[twin dragon]

Chat is this proof that hk fans need eye candy to survive

[edgy nebula]

i do think radiance is a better character than gms personally

[twin dragon]

She's very plain imo

[whole holly]

we see white text in godhome too, which is still different than radiance's title card which is white background with black text

[kindred ingot]

I even prefer GMS's title card cuz it doesn't flashbang me

[twin dragon]

Like she works as an antagonist sure but she's really not that complex

[whole holly]

i have other reasons for disliking GMS

[edgy nebula]

i feel like she fits in the themes of perpetuation in hk, i wouldnt call gms super complex either

[twin dragon]

She def has more

[kindred ingot]

I don't have a strong opinion on either of them, they're both "giant gods to be defeated" imo
most of their character is just backstory (although GMS does show a bit of... character development?)

[whole holly]

i mean she is raging god, she serves that well, GMS is more of angry woman that gets binded by Hornet

[twin dragon]

Gms while despotic, somewhat tries to be a mother

[twin dragon]

What...

[edgy nebula]

yeah fair, i feel like radiance wouldve gotten more if she actually talked

[kindred ingot]

they're both raging gods, GMS is just shaped like a woman and shows more complex emotions than Radiance

[edgy nebula]

gms gets some solid dialogue and characterization through lace

[twin dragon]

Gms doesn't talk either but eh

[kindred ingot]

she does have dream nail dialogue

[whole holly]

i mean Radiance had children that betrayed her, who would she be a mother to?

[edgy nebula]

silk heart dialogue

[twin dragon]

The entire game is better tied to her

[twin dragon]

True

[edgy nebula]

does she? wasnt it scrapped

[kindred ingot]

she kinda does in the Silk Heart cutscenes

[twin dragon]

Its scrapped yeah

smt smt ancient void enemy

[edgy nebula]

yeah

[twin dragon]

while there's zero connection between them aside from the light n dark themes

[whole holly]

ehhh, she is control freak

[kindred ingot]

she does

[twin dragon]

The radiance didn't even talk it out she straight up jumped to violence

[kindred ingot]

"...ANCIENT ENEMY...
...I DO NOT FEAR YOU...
...LET ME BE FREE...
...I WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN...
...DAWN WILL BREAK...
...THE LIGHT CANNOT BE CONSUMED..."

^ Radiance's dream nail dialogue

[whole holly]

i don't think you know her perspective or lore

[edgy nebula]

i mean, its fair, her people jumped on the pk train and she was destined to be forgotten

[twin dragon]

That is literally her lore kinda

[twin dragon]

She was very desperate from the very start

[kindred ingot]

she can't talk it out, she's stuck in the dream realm

[twin dragon]

She talks to people in their dreams

[whole holly]

not really, she has symbiotic relationship with moths

[twin dragon]

that's how she persuades people into the infection

[whole holly]

doubt pale king would welcome her

[twin dragon]

He seems like a semi rational guy

[crystal marsh]

PK didn't suppress other HBs

[twin dragon]

And she ultimately blamed Pk, even though the moths were the ones to dip

[kindred ingot]

let's say you're a god, your people are worshipping you, then suddenly some guy shows up and makes them all forget you (which means death)
would you just "talk it out"?

[whole holly]

i didn't say he did, but he did put her followers in his thrall

[crystal marsh]

yes, and the Moths did that of their own volition

[kindred ingot]

he kinda asked for everyone to worship him and only him

[twin dragon]

Therefore the fault is of the guy that showed up and not of your followers

[whole holly]

and it is in Wyrm nature

[crystal marsh]

clearly not, given that Unn still had a culture around her in Greenpath

[kindred ingot]

...yeah, you could say that
and if you pay attention, none of the moths are infected

[twin dragon]

He let many tribes do their thing

[whole holly]

also Pale Being nature is devotion and destruction

[kindred ingot]

the Mosskin wasn't part of the Pale King's kingdom

[twin dragon]

This is probably a contrivance

[crystal marsh]

no, the fault is on the Moths for defecting in the first place

[twin dragon]

That statement is ironic