sk-lore

[edgy river]

Might be just a mountain ig

[gentle aspen]

I mean

you can’t really assume that

you don’t know their elevations

in relation to each other

[next ridge]

That’s the likely answer since it’s said that the chambers cloaks are built for colder winds and there’s also a frozen mountain right next to the citadel. And dirtmouth has the crystal peaks but it is not high enough to produce snow.

[edgy river]

I think it's a safe bet to assume the abyss oceans share the same altitude

[next ridge]

It’s also said that the mountain froze over due to the citadel but general concept makes it fair to say that hollow nest is deeper than pharloom which is taller

[edgy river]

Tho even that is not confirmed, is what it makes sense from how hornet describes it "the void below all things"

So the bottom of the world

[gentle aspen]

not really?

[edgy river]

Do you think blasted steps in in the surface then?

[next ridge]

Most likely yes. But void pockets like oil could exist slightly higher

[next ridge]

It has a exit directly out into the wasteland btw

So yes it is

It is the outskirts of the interior of pharloom

If hornet walks toward said exist she says “i must not leave yet, [insert reason]”

The reasons depends on the current act or story progression

[edgy river]

But it was at one point just sands of karak

Does that mean people lived there. In the surface? With all the wind we supposedly expect from the surface?

[next ridge]

True, but from the view of the outside it’s very vast

[next ridge]

Not really

Well we don’t know

I’d like to assume kingdoms are built in walled off areas

Like a basin or a location surrounded by natural walls of stone

Nest is one of those examples

As seen by Dirtmouth and the peak and the entrance to the game

[edgy river]

I'm not really sure about only the surface having wind

And thunder*

[next ridge]

They act as natural walls for dirt mouth

[next ridge]

Erm

How else would wind form inside a closed space

[edgy river]

Considering we have god-like beings that generate tons of stuff like life and greenery. And we have a confirmed god of thunder already. Id say it can probably happen underground

[next ridge]

Didn’t the godhome guys have a thunder god

That died

[edgy river]

Yes

That's what I'm saying

If there are gods of thunder

I don't think thunder needs to necessarily mean the surface

Maybe there are gods of wind or the winds of the wastelands is caused by another force

Strong impacts caused by higher beings

Wait

We literally already have that

Kingdom's edge is full of wind

Because of the corpse of the wyrm, no?

[tacit crown]

I mean Mount fay has clouds and that's part of the Citidal's Cavern

so it's a plenty fine theory that it's caves all the way up

[edgy river]

I assume if he thinks blasted steps is outside he also thinks mount day is outside

[next ridge]

Blasted steps isn’t entirely outside but it’s on the outskirts of the wastes

And I did think mount fay was outside

Or at least a portion of it

[ruby aspen]

mabey pharloom isnt undergrond

[next ridge]

No it is

[tacit crown]

unfortunatly the nameless town suggests otherwise..

[edgy river]

Gotta go now

[next ridge]

What’s wrong with that

[edgy river]

His point is that it's possible pbarlooms like a mountain

The very top of it is nameless town

Or close to it

[next ridge]

Probably ended up becoming nameless due to the storms just killing it

[edgy river]

And blasted steps also goes outside at the bottom. Since it's more to the left and down

[next ridge]

Storms as in dust

[next ridge]

Seems likely

Think of a cone

[tacit crown]

I mean sure that's one way to view it, a good theory even it's just that we've seen both dunes on either side, Left in blasted steps, the other in Weavenest Cindril, so... Where is the ocean?

[ruby aspen]

also on the trailer for silksong pharloom bay we can see that it is ontop of the of the ocean

[edgy river]

Or maybe it wasn't very good to be literally above GMS and the citadel. Maybe she destroyed it when she first got there before creating the weavers. But this is just speculation

[next ridge]

On the right, it’s common ball

There’s stuff in bilewater that speaks of salt

Salt as in sea water

[edgy river]

Gotta go now bye

[next ridge]

Meh I doubt it, it was small anyway

The game takes place on Hoxxes from DRG

[barren crow]

What's the weirdest unexplained mystery in hollow knight or Silksong

[ruby aspen]

idk the lifeblood or plasmium?

[muted lantern]

I've just learned that seer turns into a lumafly when she vanished in a puff of essence. So I was thinking, is it possible that moths were evolved lumaflies like how weavers were evolved pharlids?

It would make sort of sense that radiance would evolve the light producing bug into her children, but it's a stretch ig.

[dire lynx]

it would make more sense that the were born from a dream like the mosskin

[craggy smelt]

what if mosskin are just elevated mosscreeps?

[craggy smelt]

or, the Seer basically underwent a transformation similar to the one forced upon Citadel bugs to turn them into silkflies

Seer just did it under her own power

[craggy smelt]

I guess the deal with masks

how do they really work

what the Mask Makers are actually for (and who's contracted them to do it)

that's all pretty weird

[pale narwhal]

even in real life an internal space large enough can develop a weather system

[dire lynx]

the moss didnt exist before unn, so that wouldnt make any sense

[barren crow]

What do we know about the Vision

[craggy smelt]

mosskin propaganda

(you're part of it)

[potent blaze]

who would actually be stronger in their prime? Unn or Nyleth?

[dire lynx]

Unn, nyleth is a fraud

not even higher

[potent blaze]

i feel like nyleth should be cut some slack tho, she constructed literally everything in shellwood out of a single seed and was also able to resist gms

and shes not a higher being so its like the karmelita-esque thing ig

[dire lynx]

she made shellwood by reproduction

unn dreamt up all greenpath in an instant

[vivid kernel]

fr?

didn't know that part of hk lore

[dire lynx]

the mosskin walked out of unns dreams

nyleth just went around planting her own seeds

[heavy gyro]

Would a random gahlia inherit the pollen heart after nyleth

[dire lynx]

maybe

would be interesting if a splinter did tho

[covert night]

nyleth lore sucks tbh

actually all heart lores are written poorly except maybe for clover dancers

[grave stream]

pale king does that too

[pale narwhal]

they'd probably need to grow into their own strength and make their own heart

[tiny jacinth]

cornballs 😭

[dire lynx]

no?

[grave stream]

you don't get it

[pale narwhal]

what

[foggy fractal]

a ball made of corn

[tacit crown]

that does kinda look like the pollen heart.

[grave stream]

does anybody get my joke

[pale narwhal]

is it because hes got 500 children?

[grave stream]

yes

also he has like 4000x that btw

[cunning carbon]

Corn on my balls

[west meadow]

Corn made of balls

[prime mantle]

not the nyleth hate...

[tawdry veldt]

whos hating on nyleth cuz i respect that

[tawdry veldt]

500 mil </3

[prime mantle]

Ethical Heart Gathering Standards:

Oh no! Killing is always immoral, but Hornet must slay three vital beings in Pharloom to save the kingdom from certain peril. But she's recently discovered that there are four! Having learned everything she can about each heart, how can she make the moral choice of who to spare?

Let's help her make her choice by going over what we know.

Do They Want To Die?

Khann: No (He set up Watcher on the Edge, meaning he is simply waiting for water.)
Nyleth: No (She set up a guard (Seth) to protect her until the end of time)
Karmelita: Yes (She asks Hornet for this/allows her)
Green Prince: Yes (He lives in regret and remorse, and when slain, rejoices)

What Is The Consequence Of Their Death?

Khann: None (Sands of Karak are already dry, though he might be able to revitalize it if he is alive and water comes)
Nyleth: Shellwood dies (This is devastating, as Shellwood is already uniquely vulnerable to devilish beings like Greyroot, Sister Splinter and Widow. Without her, such beings will be free to wreck havoc and more might be attracted to Shellwood. Moreover, Shellwood provides sustenance for Bellhart, which is the largest unhaunted settlement in Pharloom after being saved.)
Karmelita: Far Fields die (Skarr tribe is wiped out, alongside much of the nature of the great Far Fields. It's notable to say that the Skarr tribe is already haunted.)
Green Prince: The result of his death is actively positive. (Verdania begins to recover from its ruins. However, Hornet wouldn't know this beforehand. Still yet, as Verdania is dust and GP has no goal but mourning, there is no consequence)

---

What Value Do They Provide To The General Wellbeing Of Pharloom?

Khann: Not much. (He is a conqueror that created a martial society based on power, albeit he might be able to revitalize Karak should water come)
Nyleth: A lot. (She provided sanctuary and safe passage to pilgrims, she keeps Shellwood [and Bellhart] alive.)
Karmelita: Some. (She keeps Far Fields alive, although her tribe is vicious, xenophobic also martial, hunting on pilgrims that sustain the song which keep GMS in slumber)
Green Prince: None. (He abandoned Verdania, killing him heals it.)

Murder Order:

1. Green Prince
2. Khann
3. Karmelita

As always, Shellwood patriots are right. Save Nyleth forever. All for the pollen heart.

reworked. ill repost this whenever i see nyleth hate 😮‍💨

[tawdry veldt]

yeah but

shellwood sucks ass

so

[edgy nebula]

shellwood is for nerds, karak is for real men

[tawdry veldt]

yet yer pfp is green prince

[edgy nebula]

he's cool too

[prime mantle]

khann could've gotten gp to stop moping iykwim

[tawdry veldt]

hes just sad cuz his man died gang </3

not that deep

[tawdry veldt]

balrighty

[prime mantle]

sending you to the chapel of the witch 😊

[tawdry veldt]

good

witch crest is peak </3

[ruby aspen]

The healing isnt good for somebosses sometimes tho

[tawdry veldt]

true

i run hunters cuz i lwk forget how to use the others

[edgy nebula]

shellwood is lowkey the home to some of the most aggressive characters in the game

[prime mantle]

ur not gonna get the crest bro....

[edgy nebula]

why let them keep their home and thrive

[ruby aspen]

wdym

[prime mantle]

because nyleth doesn't get preserved and loved

see what you have to deal with without her?

[edgy nebula]

splinters, greyroot

[tawdry veldt]

one time i swapped from hunters to architechs and

i swear i couldnt hit anythng]

[edgy nebula]

yeah she doesnt help anymore and lets them thrive

[tawdry veldt]

and the pogo </3

[edgy nebula]

kill her so they lose their home

[tawdry veldt]

just hunters on an angle

[prime mantle]

that would make them spread more you silly

[tawdry veldt]

i say kill nyleth then doom all the shellwood creatures

https://tenor.com/view/doom-the-dark-ages-doom-dark-ages-doom-dark-ages-doomguy-gif-15980962764398322199

[ruby aspen]

why

[tawdry veldt]

cuz shellwood sucks </3

[prime mantle]

hornet when she hunts gp solely to have yaoi in her shelf

[tawdry veldt]

bruh

[ruby aspen]

tf I thought she only read yuri

[prime mantle]

no lace was so cringe that she's a fujo now

[edgy nebula]

"Please, permit me this moment of mourning, warrior..."

"As you will, tall bug."

she then proceeded to trespass on his memory, kill him, crushes his dreams, then hangs his heart on her wall

[prime mantle]

she prefers awesome gay couples like nailsmith and sheo and the cogwork dancers to cringe prince though

[ruby aspen]

well at least his heartbeat rate got down on the wall which means hes happy or not thinking because hes braindead because hes dead

[prime mantle]

she couldn't find better yaoi memento so she had to take the conjoined heart

[prime mantle]

i love sending this

[edgy nebula]

hornet really is small as shit

green prince's arms are literally the size of her body

[ruby aspen]

she really got the dwarf gene from her father

[prime mantle]

there's a lot of rabid huntess instinct in her little body

[edgy nebula]

never forget the silksong's #1 aurafarmer

[ruby aspen]

wait is nuu a higher being?

[prime mantle]

number 1? hmmm

[edgy nebula]

no

[prime mantle]

there could be better aura farmers

[ruby aspen]

like who?

[prime mantle]

idk

im trying to think beyond gms and lace

[ruby aspen]

vessel at that one ending?

[oak palm]

Literally all he has going for him 💔

[prime mantle]

phantom and last judge farm it pretty well

[edgy nebula]

one of the best themes in the game

[oak palm]

That's part of the aura farming

[edgy nebula]

phantom lost all of her aura in the gender discourse

[ruby aspen]

what

[prime mantle]

that's like saying shade lord has no aura

for the same reason

ive never actually had such discourse on phantom ig im lucky

[oak palm]

I still like phantom but the discourse lowkey killed lace for me

[ruby aspen]

also why do phantom and lace both have dark spots on their body are they supposted to resemble void?

[edgy nebula]

it's just darkened silk cause itd be weird if they had an all white design

[edgy nebula]

i still like lce cause she atleast has some solid character development

[oak palm]

In phantoms case the silk is literally rotting

[edgy nebula]

phantom doesnt get that so she just leaves a bad taste in my mouth now

[ruby aspen]

oh thx

[prime mantle]

what's the lace discourse

[oak palm]

Her age

[edgy nebula]

lace age discourse

[prime mantle]

why does that matter

[edgy nebula]

people wanna ship her

[prime mantle]

oh bc they ship her nvm

[edgy nebula]

thats the only reason

[oak palm]

Yeah

[edgy nebula]

it's also pretty important to her story

[oak palm]

Shipping leads to a lot of obnoxious discourse

[prime mantle]

silksong fans jumping through a billion loops to say the main deuteragonist in the game about maternity is actually unrelated to the protagonist and also an adult

[prime mantle]

phantom is really weird for me bc i do not know where to put them in lore

not really for any discourse reason

gms abandoning them is 100% ooc

so something else had to happen but i dont know what

[edgy nebula]

i mean, it's pretty in character

[prime mantle]

hard disagree, gms doesn't even abandon widow

[shell magnet]

No but like considering the knight is basically the corpse of a baby filled with void i think that all semblance of being a conventional bug gets thrown out the window

[edgy nebula]

i dont see why it wouldnt be in character, she still has a use for widow

she mutilated her to the point she had no choice but to obey

she's downright evil i think she'd be okay casting a child into the wild

[prime mantle]

the vessels being genderless makes sense because gender is an euphemism for personhood in the hollow knight game. them staying genderless is a whole other point though

[prime mantle]

no way she did this to widow. it was likely the rebelling weavers

i don't think she is evil either

[shell magnet]

Considering that hornet is called something along the lines of "the gendered child" in hollow knight that basically confirms that the vessels have no gender

[edgy nebula]

gms is pretty evil

[prime mantle]

yes, this is also to emphasize that hornet is indeed a child and a person

[shell magnet]

Is the lore bot updated for silksong

[ruby aspen]

why do hera and the widow look so different from the weavers in that one weaver custene

[prime mantle]

widow is disfigured

[oak palm]

Lacenet is a shit ship btw

[prime mantle]

herrah is... a whole conversation

[oak palm]

Even regardless of the trillion issues surrounding it

[edgy nebula]

widow had her mask removed, herrah got retconned from a common beast to a weaver so she looks weird

[oak palm]

Retconblud

[shell magnet]

Isn't it a theory that herra having a child messed her up or something

[prime mantle]

herrah might not fit the weaver beauty standards but she fits a king's beauty standards, so they can get over it 😤

[shell magnet]

Well not really

[ruby aspen]

mabey they didnt account for the silksong dlc or something or shes an elevated of another species

[shell magnet]

Herrah is described as a "common bug" in hollow knight

Although the fungus people might not be the most reliable source on that

[prime mantle]

herrah is described that way by racist mushrooms who don't actually know what the weavers are. also she likely was common compared to her higher being/equivalent husband, who's dead now

[shell magnet]

Speaking of mushrooms

Mr Mushroom

[ruby aspen]

I think hornet has met him before

like before silksong

[prime mantle]

she at least knows of him, so yeah

[ruby aspen]

because she said they crossed paths or something I forgot

[shell magnet]

It would've been so funny if every Mr Mushroom dialogue in silksong was just gibberish since she doesn't have spore shroom

But nooo

Team cherry needs to make the entire thing make zero sense

[prime mantle]

it does make sense in some regard

hornet says she knows a ton of languages but couldn't understand the mottled skarr despite that

[ruby aspen]

mabey she learned shroomish since she knew mr mushroom or something

[prime mantle]

naturally, she'd have learnt all the tongues of hallownest, which includes shroomish

as she was the guardian princess

[shell magnet]

The fungus people don't seem too friendly it seems

And they speak via a hivemind

The only one who speaks to the player in the game is Mr Mushroom

[prime mantle]

no, they actually don't mind hallownest that much iirc? its been a while but i think a lore tablet somewhere says they treatise with pk or the city or smth

they do think they are better than regular bugs though, thanks to their hivemind, they pity their loneliness

[random harbor]

Lore Tablet: Fungal Wastes - Fungal Core ("Pity those bugs")

Pity those bugs.
Minds locked. Thoughts trapped in solitude.
Faint shadow of an idea are the words that attempt its utterance.

@pancakeisagod used /lore-tablets area: Fungal Wastes name: Fungal Core ("Pity those bugs")

[shell magnet]

That's a mantis village one I believe

[prime mantle]

oh, i suppose it could be

[random harbor]

Lore Tablet: Fungal Wastes - Mantis Village ("The truce remains")

The truce remains.
Our vigil holds.
The beasts are kept at bay.

@pancakeisagod used /lore-tablets area: Fungal Wastes name: Mantis Village ("The truce remains")

[shell magnet]

This one?

[prime mantle]

i do remember this! but i should look for the shroom tablets myself, its on the tip of my tongue

"Warily shall we accept the will of the Wyrm. Its prescience shields us. Fate and Future we shall entwine."

[dire lynx]

W shellwood hate

[prime mantle]

unn would like nyleth dont put bad bitches against each other....

[dire lynx]

nah, unn wouldnt care either way

[shell magnet]

Unn seems more of a leaf and acid person

Whereas nyleth is a loser

[prime mantle]

nyleth loves leaves wdym

they are both snoozers

[shell magnet]

Nyleth is a big flower

Also

Why does lace fight have all these flowers exactly like nyleth and shellwood?

[torpid estuary]

Hi all, I'm new, so sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but does anyone know if there's a complete script for Silksong like the one Mossbag compiled for HK?

[prime mantle]

gms wanted her to have aura

[edgy nebula]

as in all of the text?

[shell magnet]

I always thought in my first playthrough that the second lace fight was going to be in Shellwood

[prime mantle]

that'd be convenient but if there is idk

[torpid estuary]

yeees exactly

[edgy nebula]

i think there is

[ruby aspen]

doesnt the wiki work?

[edgy nebula]

it's in his discord server in the silksong lore channel pins

let me see if i can get the link

Silksong full script:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ee0O2Dm3zl9gK-s-TRfu3brCSMPlOYdBZIqBpA76Iys

Note: This document also contains unused dialogue. Double check dialogue in game if unsure if used.

[prime mantle]

its like how hornet protectori is far off

[torpid estuary]

no, because i want to ctrl + f the entire script for certain words

[torpid estuary]

thank you!!! youre the goat

[edgy nebula]

np gng

[prime mantle]

awesome this should make translating things for my fic easier

[ruby aspen]

what fic?

[ionic basalt]

Fanfic perhaps

[shell magnet]

Do y'all ever wonder why the bugs in the very beginning of the game are taking hornet across the bridge to Shellwood

[prime mantle]

ive yet to write it im still doing an excel file for silksong translations, but its a fanfic yeah

[ionic basalt]

Cause they going to the citadel?

[shell magnet]

Nuh uh

[prime mantle]

they were probably taking her to widow

[tawdry flare]

Then why didn't they go to Blasted Steps? Are they stupid?

[ionic basalt]

Last judge bashes their skulls out ye

[edgy nebula]

probably going to use the bellways to take her to the citadel

[shell magnet]

Well it's that or running into a swamp

[tawdry flare]

why would the last judge bash out their allies' skulls

[ionic basalt]

They can try the sewer route

[shell magnet]

The bell beast is not operational in the beginning of the game

[ionic basalt]

Cause their heart aint pure, they not pilgrims

[edgy nebula]

yeah they can still take her through the bellways

[prime mantle]

the last judge gate is likely not the gate they take the cages in through since it needs all the bells to be rung. we know there are gates of entries near wisp thicket so there's likely other entries around bellhart that are simple to access

[shell magnet]

Well then if that's the case why doesn't hornet walk through the bellways instead of riding the bell beast

[prime mantle]

the bellways are shut

[tawdry flare]

I see

[edgy nebula]

bell beast is faster

[ionic basalt]

Or just decommishend and confusing af

[shell magnet]

Ok so if you skip bell beast then why doesn't hornet just go for a swim in the bell tunnels

[prime mantle]

well they have lids over them until you fork over the rosaries, and both the start and the destination need to be open

[shell magnet]

Bro ts is illogical

[edgy nebula]

gameplay

[ionic basalt]

True, that means transport via bellways existed, and they stretch to citadel and b i l e w a ter

[shell magnet]

Gameplay my ass bro those bugs aren't fitting in the bell tunnels

[prime mantle]

unless lace speedran to close all the bellways for whatever reason the bellways were likely closed when hornet fortnite drops into the grotto

[ionic basalt]

True why were they sealed? Not a tram pasd type situation

[prime mantle]

well it's likely gms didn't want pilgrims taking the easy way into citadel and start singing again

some think its a sin but i doubt all pilgrims would care

that's my theory though

if she needed the bellways she could just open them again

ofc she's not exactly cognizant in her coma but yk

[ionic basalt]

True maybe the citadel just made it stupid expensive for pilgrims, but then again all are closed uh

Not sure what im saying

[prime mantle]

oh, paying is useless if you dont have the destinations open, which you cant open unless you're already there

a pilgrim walking from bone bottom station to grand bellway station would just be met with gilded walls over the bells

[ionic basalt]

Maybe only citadel officials were permitted? I

Weird thing

[prime mantle]

no, i think they were probably used in the heyday. the citadel did want pilgrims

[shell magnet]

Considering that the bell beast is trapped in silk what if gms didn't want bellway transport

[prime mantle]

maybe not straight from the bottom to the city but they were probably functional

[shell magnet]

For some reason

[prime mantle]

so maybe the richest pilgrims could be dropped off at blasted steps, where they would be judged

ohhhh this makes sense it was definitely based on tickets lol. nothing in pharloom is available without hella cash

[prime mantle]

i definitely think she doesn't

ease of travel in pharloom makes control harder

[shell magnet]

Well it's strange because wouldn't the bugs of the citadel want more choir bugs to sing?

Because that's what keeps gms at bay?

I suppose when the cogwork heart was created that was useless but still

[prime mantle]

i think the bellways were open during the citadel, yeah

[shell magnet]

So who sealed them?

[prime mantle]

they were deffo not free, and likely didnt let the pilgrims directly into the city, but they were

[prime mantle]

probably the haunted bugs ordered by gms in her coma. or it couldve even been lace at some point

while the citadel wants bugs, gms doesnt

[shell magnet]

Sounds plausible

[prime mantle]

terminus is shut down by citadel, though. for being too deadly

[shell magnet]

Which is confusing to me because we don't experience a single terminus accident

Even when the citadel is crumbling

[prime mantle]

well hornet probably doesn't have trouble being tumbled around offscreen

if it was a citizen...

[edgy nebula]

add a 1/4 chance for hornet to instantly die from the ventrica

[shell magnet]

Yess

[prime mantle]

ventrica isn't necessarily deadly because it crashes, it's deadly because it's a high pressure tube being shot from place to place

you could get a concussion or other injuries

hornet is built different

it'd be funny if there was an effect that landed you with a mask or two missing though, but this could theoretically end steel soul runs so i see why they didn't do it

[shell magnet]

Although they still put you at 1 hp at act 3 on steel soul

[prime mantle]

lol true

[shell magnet]

Team cherry really does not care

[prime mantle]

i guess they could just add a clause to ventrica that takes off hearts but can't kill you

[fleet sparrow]

My theory:
-It is mentioned that the Conductors forgot the original meaning as to why they had to keep the choir singing, thus didnt care for the singing as much. Their prioritization of personal gain over the singing is what lead to GMS being able to create the haunting
-As for the Bellways, i think they were always mostly closed, and the Bell Beasts are just able to carve out tunnels. Those tunnels will eventually collapse though, and if the bellways arent used frequently, then the tunnels will close in

[shell magnet]

If they were always mostly closed then... what was their purpose? Were they used when the weavers were in power?

[fleet sparrow]

Before the haunting, the bellways were used often. Since the Bell Beast can carve out tunnels, it doesnt matter if the tunnels sometimes got clogged.
After the haunting though, the bell beast got stuck, and the tunnels clogged up. Hornet calling allows the Bell Beast to carve out new tunnels to those stations

[prime mantle]

i doubt the conductors could just forget when a good third of the city is dedicated to preserving information for them

more likely they just had hubris and were selfish lol

"surely this won't harm anything!"

[fleet sparrow]

They were probably just overconfident

[shell magnet]

And they were sealed off and put behind a paywall just for shits and giggles?

That does sound like something a greedy bug would do, make someone pay for a useless service

Someone still had to seal them

Bell beasts can do all the carving they want but there will still be a giant metal door on the entrances

[covert night]

chance increases to 3/4 if it's a steel soul save

[prime mantle]

no, the bellways were used, they have systematic construction all around pharloom

[edgy nebula]

fearful pilgrim states they were used

that "bugs used to travel in them in gilded carriages"

[prime mantle]

if they were seldom used there wouldn't need to make such an investment. like, bilewater does not need a bellway

[edgy nebula]

so true

[shell magnet]

How could I forget about fearful pilgrim

Rookie mistake

[edgy nebula]

never forget about fearful pilgrim

[shell magnet]

So the bell tunnels cannot get clogged if they weren't even using bell beasts to get around

[dire lynx]

never forget any of the iconic pilgrim characters

[fleet sparrow]

No, they werent «sealed». Bells arent the strongest materials in the world. The tunnels would eventually just collapse in on themselves, if they arent constantly carved out.
Thus, when the Bell Beast(s) fell to the haunting, the tunnels collapsed, and Hornet has to call on the Bell Beast to carve out new tunnels

[shell magnet]

But when we open a bell station, we see that there's a giant metal door placed on top of the actual bells themselves

[edgy nebula]

they wouldnt collapse because this is a video game

bellhart is still alive and kicking and we dont find bell beast buried in rubble

[shell magnet]

If by "alive and kicking" you mean "being imprisoned by a crazy disabled lady who lives in their ceiling" then yes

[prime mantle]

the ducts would need maintainance... and you wouldn't send lowly workers there on foot

unless you want them to get ganked by the spitters

[prime mantle]

this is kind of new tbf

[shell magnet]

Well we don't really know for sure

[prime mantle]

i mean, it's at least in a single mortal lifespan

[fleet sparrow]

Prob has to do with the fact that they used to be paid for ig

[shell magnet]

But how does one pay for something that only opens from the other way

Like you need to walk to the bell station to open it

And then you can travel there

Kind of weird

[prime mantle]

i doubt they paid for the ways themselves then

they likely bought tickets

and the doors would be left open, so perhaps the money mechanisms could be for carriages? idk, im trying to loreify a game mechanic

[dry compass]

whats the probable reason these guys also appear in Greymoor, cause there name is Roachkeeper seems like theres no muckroaches in The Moors

[shell magnet]

Roach ran away

He's looking for it

[dry compass]

i guess your not wrong

[graceful grail]

Two things -

First, if silkflys arent lighting these, what is??

Second, whats the deal with candles around every crest shrine?? How are they always lit?? Do the candles actually do “a thing”??

[stray fog]

No idea about the candles

[covert night]

chapels irl has candles

[craggy smelt]

for the little lightbulbs, probably gleamflies - they're mentioned in the lights you can buy for the Bellhome

and in general yeah, why stdoggo said

[graceful grail]

Ooh, true

[graceful grail]

Ok, but the wax ones,

Wait, WAX, where that from???

Also, how stay lit forever and go out when you bind?? Is a dead body fuling it??

[craggy smelt]

candles are a pretty common symbol of solemn remembrance for the dead, so having them set around tombs and shrines and chapels isn't out of the ordinary

wax probably comes from some kind of bee-like creature in the region

sadly we never get to see them

(I would love a big waxy zone)

as for it staying lit and then going out, sure, it's dead person magic

(why not)

[graceful grail]

Ok, but the candles are like, the exact same throughout. Almost like someone specifically is doing it

[craggy smelt]

pilgrims, likely

[heavy gyro]

Waxwyrm

[stray fog]

They have access to the same typf of wax ig

So the candles are identical

[craggy smelt]

I'd love to see a big candle-making area - wax, dipping, hanging candles, all kinds of giant sized ones, feral bees making the wax...

too fun

candle lore

[stray fog]

This probably means nothing, but steel people have candles at their location

Jiji and sula

Idk about zi

[dire lynx]

waxvyrm

[dire lynx]

none for zi but sula has them

would make sense if they are jijis

[covert night]

candles are always put like this in churches traditionally. i think chapel candles in the game are designed to represent something similar to this

[craggy smelt]

jinn and zi replace candles with those weird steel dealies

they fascinate me...

[inland nymph]

was thinking about the supposed 'retcon' mossbag points out where in HK Herrah was meant to be a common bug who made a deal with the Pale King so that there could a be a Deepnest successor (Hornet) who is half pale being, vs Silksong claiming that Herrah was a Weaver all along. I've seen lots of theories about Herrah being an ascended Drapemite instead of Pharlid to explain her difference, etc. I think I have an alternative explanation:

1. The whole 'common bug' thing is explained by Weavers all being common bugs with no higher being blood in them. There was certainly a monarchy and royal lineage within their species with the mysterious King of Deepnest, but all the Weavers as a species were always made from common bugs rather than having the pale blood of GMS in them. This is why Herrah, in her duties as last queen of Deepnest, makes that deal with the Pale King.
2. When comparing existing images of Weavers, the constant across their designs are body and leg shapes, but head shapes vary. This possibly ties into mask lore with masks creating different roles or consciousnesses in the bugs who don them (see Styx secret room): most Weavers in Pharloom have slightly different versions of the cracked round mask, but we never see their real faces underneath. Meanwhile, it could be possible that both Widow and Herrah have had their original masks removed for different reasons: with Widow, it was a kind of punishment leading to insanity as she hides her face with a makeshift cloth mask; while for Herrah, it was out of duty, because she had to don the Dreamer mask after conceiving Hornet. We even see that she used to have a skinny and smaller body in line with the rest of the Weavers in the Red Memory, suggesting that her plumper form comes later in the timeline and tied to her finally lying down in duty- (pure speculation but maybe she fattened up as a form of hibernation prep to keep her body alive.)

so pretty much im suggesting that the whole 'is Herrah a Weaver/ not a Weaver?' question is explained by clarifying why all Weavers are 'common bugs' and tying in mask lore to explain differences in appearance

think it makes more sense than a direct retcon from TC

[prime mantle]

red herrah isn't exactly thin either, maybe she's just a fatter weaver

im also of the opinion that the red herrah mask is her real mask since she's got little reason to put on the dreamer one before laying, and because the dreamer one is different

and it's not a rounded weaver one

[inland nymph]

yeah that could definitely be the case

[pale narwhal]

why would killing karmelita kill the farfields?

[prime mantle]

her song/vibe is what sustains it

hornet discusses this with gilly

[stray fog]

Lmao you had to add that first paragraph due to people's reactions to this😭

[prime mantle]

😔

[dire lynx]

herrah isnt actually wearing the dreamer mask in red memory, its just there because hornet cannot remember herrahs actual face

[prime mantle]

that's messed up.......

[graceful grail]

Unless herra needed her mask forcibly removed like widows was, so PK could “apply” the dreamer mask to her face…

[whole holly]

keep up with this, we need Nyleth propaganda

isn't Nyleth just a plant with a mask? weird that Mask Maker doesn't talk about her

[graceful grail]

Yep, we know she is not a bug and is completely plant, along with some other creatures in pharloom.

[whole holly]

yeah, i know

[inner fox]

okay so

i finished hollow kngiht and silksong this month

or well

still playing silksong act 3

but i had this theory about something

something that really bothered me no one else metioned

under i think the whispering vaults

theres a speaking pilgrim statue

its eyes glow like the ones that you find at the threefold melody lift

atleast when it talks

just like them

and i saw on the right

theres a spot thats like kinda empty

next to the vaultkeeper statue i think

Could it perhaps be that the melody was originally a fourfold melody or atleast was planned to beat the start?

its kind of odd the pilgrims wouldnt have there own statue there to begin with

im kind of surprised im the only one who thinks this , please let me know your opinion!

the only thing that i question about my theory is:why was it discarded/hidden away?

[low sand]

Probably because pilgrims are supposed to be servants

And not high class

[inner fox]

kinda what i was thinking but i found the citadel often actually just straight up denying itself

for example in terminus you can find an announcement of the denial to continue the use of the tubes because of safety issues

the next moment everyone in the citadel gets told to continue working or else they are sinners

[lyric widget]

it's an interesting idea for sure! but we did find the original location of the whispering vaults statue, it's here in the Choral Chambers

[heavy gyro]

It could be that she's just imitating a mask

[inner fox]

oh fuck i did not see that

but doesnt the staue have like a platform under it already?

[lyric widget]

here is the sprite

[craggy smelt]

looks like they unscrewed it and some of the screws broke off

(I hate it when that happened)

[inner fox]

yeah they do look similar...

huh

well thats sad

i mean atleast it doesnt disprove my theory COMPLETELY

he might still be a statue quiet similar to them

perhaps he was at that location orginally

then moved down

then completely removed

he does sing

[craggy smelt]

maybe he was like the original incarnation of the idea?

[inner fox]

could be

[craggy smelt]

the three statues were built later on, inspired by this first one

[inner fox]

id argue he does have something to do with the threefold statues atleast

[craggy smelt]

the overall switch to mechanisms in the Citadel seems to have been made because it was better for maintaing the song

this statue might've held the original technology that led to that

Choral Commandment:

Last edict of the Conductors.
"And lo, is eternity sustained. By Architect's claw, we welcome that final form, of dial and rotor, and soul gladly given.
The perfect, unfaltering voice."

[inner fox]

my head canon is that the citadel (because at first they welcomed pilgrims so hard and then kinda closed their gates with the last judge and all) removed the statue and moved it elsewhere

so they wouldnt be with the higher class anymore

maybe at first it was the 4 factions of the citadel

pilgrims , conductors , archticets and the vaultkeepers

fourfoldmelody

but as pilgrims were less and less welcome in the citadel

it was removed

it would explain the emptiness next to the vaultkeepers

it just kind of looks like somethings missing there

[craggy smelt]

maybe they just stuck the tiniest and biggest statues on one side and tried the middle-sized to balance them out

(it does look a little lop-sided)

[inner fox]

yeah i thought that too , thats defenitely an option

the problem with my head canon is he doesnt have one of em tubes

could have been removed but well

thats kind of stupid from an artistic view

given the tubes seem like they go into their bodies

[craggy smelt]

Isamor's dialogue seems to harken back to a time when the Citadel was simpler and less extravagant - mentioning threadbare clothes and unadorned stone

possibly as the Citadel became more opulent, his words became outmoded and the Citadel masters locked him away so it wouldn't cause conflict with what they hoped to accomplish

the values of simple pilgrims were overshadowed by the decadence of the other factions

[inner fox]

very good thinking honestly

that might genuinely be the way

i do LIKE my headcanon more , but its more likely its what you are saying

[craggy smelt]

that's the tragedy of headcanon

[inner fox]

maybe sea of sorrow could explain more about the technical parts of the citadel

given the submarine or something

[frosty gate]

I hate this propaganda machine so much

[foggy fractal]

<@&283547423706447872>

scam/bot message!!! kill!!!

[raw plover]

Hey guys

[foggy fractal]

hey guys

[frosty gate]

Specifically and most likely at the beggining of Conductor's Era

[frosty gate]

Wait I'm late what's your hc?

[inner fox]

from here

but alot of the main part is a bit earlier

[frosty gate]

Oh no, that's not it

[inner fox]

i mean yeah weaver

[frosty gate]

It was Weaver then Conductors then Keepers and Architects last

Pilgrims are just

An extension

[inner fox]

first off

like i said

headcanon not canon

secondly pilgrims are like

still part of the citadel

just because they are an "extension" doesnt mean they aint part of it

[frosty gate]

I mean yeah but the part they play is not of relevance compared to the others

[inner fox]

they kinda

[frosty gate]

Yeah yeah I know, I'm just saying

[inner fox]

populate the citadel

they kinda do alot of the labour no?

[frosty gate]

Pilgrims are as important as your average citizen in the grand scale of things

[inner fox]

and a huge part of the citadels history is the pilgramage up there to be part of it (seen as a holy place to wander to)

[frosty gate]

They are important, but they're not relevant

Most of them are slaves anyway

[inner fox]

they the working class tho???

you are calling the working class not relevant

pilgrims are defo relevant

i think you might be phrasing what you mean wrong

[frosty gate]

They are important but you can't name a single Pilgrim is what I mean

[inner fox]

i think i understand what you are trying to convey

[frosty gate]

Relevancy and importance is not the same

[inner fox]

https://tenor.com/view/sherma-silksong-absolute-cinema-gif-774649724514166125

[frosty gate]

Sherma is not a pilgrim, he's god itself, please be better

[inner fox]

https://tenor.com/view/pilby-hornet-hollow-knight-silksong-pilby-silksong-hollow-knight-gif-12111362000438931603

[frosty gate]

The work they play is important but they're not relevant. You can name a president but can't name a random worker doing the mines

[frosty gate]

DeaD

[inner fox]

not if you do it right

im just getting the gifs of the character

[frosty gate]

Then MIA

[inner fox]

my point is i can name quiet a few

arent even those knights you fight pilgrims

[frosty gate]

I can name like 4, but in the Citadel its only Loam

[inner fox]

arent some of the whiteward workers pilgrims

[frosty gate]

You're not getting what I mean, I don't say they're not important, I'm saying they're not relevant, you can replace them.

[inner fox]

in theory all of them are replacable

[frosty gate]

You're making it hard to convey what I mean

[inner fox]

i understand that

but maybe theres just no point there?

pilgrims are very relevant to the citadel

hell the whole pilgrimage is part of silksong story itself

as hornet you are TECHNICALLY a pilgrim

[frosty gate]

My point is that the Goverment wouldn't give the workers a fucking statue giving access to the chamber of God

[inner fox]

pilgrammaging to the citadel

[inner fox]

ah but heres the thing , all 3 of the melodies have to come together

either way the workers couldnt do it alone

like i said @craggy smelt theory is actually very likely , but i LIKE my head canon

im just not sure you are correct about the pilgrims not being important

or relevant

[frosty gate]

God I'm not saying they're work isn't important

I'm saying that for The Conductors, Pilgrims are not relevant and wouldn't bother to give them a statue or anything to give them any sense of power. To the Higheruppers, all Pilgrims are little more than slaves, whether they wind up in the Citadel or the Underworks.

They don't get statues, recognition or prizes

[inner fox]

guess this isnt a pilgrim then

must be my imagination

[frosty gate]

I HATE THAT FUCKING PROPAGANDA MACHINE SO MUCH

Jesus it all comes back to that fucking thing

Its a mascot

[inner fox]

mhm

so?

are the conductors not interested in having pilgrims come to the citadel making sure it has money by working for it and making sure its maintained?

do they rather have a broken down citadel

is that it?

[frosty gate]

I'm done you are actively baiting me

You can't be this dumb to not understand what the fuck I'm saying

[inner fox]

im not exactly baiting but im just really interested what you can anwser me to these questions (i lowkey dont even know much)

[spark valve]

the conductors don't care about the choir but it is in their interest for the choir to think they do

pilgrims wouldn't have been part of the threefold melody setup because the melody as a trial is part of the pilgrimage

[inner fox]

also , arent they perhaps interested in having the song being continued

they dont live foreever

[inner fox]

its just a nice headcanon

[spark valve]

also pious isamor's dialogue is unlike the melody statues, isamor was originally welcoming pilgrims to the citadel and was probably removed because its message about humility no longer applied when the citadel transitioned to more opulence

[inner fox]

i thought its a cool concept

[frosty gate]

Yeah that's why they're making robots with their souls and have dozens of corpses in the Ward

[inner fox]

and when theres no pilgrims anymore you cant do that

[frosty gate]

On that topic, I do wonder what was the point of that ngl

Pilgrims would already be in the Citadel when they take the trial

[inner fox]

so they can go up and join the choir

[spark valve]

if nothing else it teaches them songs which they can then sing

[inner fox]

atleast im guessing

[frosty gate]

Yeah, that's what I think

[inner fox]

those that dont do the trial get sent to the underworks

for labour

not obedient enough

[frosty gate]

You can either choose to stay in the Citadel as just a dude

Or you can ascend I guess

And be part of the Choir

[worthy fog]

Arent you immediately either a work slave or a member of the choir

[frosty gate]

Yeah you are right, I meant Disciples

[spark valve]

the pilgrimage isn't considered complete until finishing the melody so not really

All: Pilgrim of Pharloom eternal, you rare chosen who hath ascended to this final threshold, listen to our wish, deliver it, that you may rise above and see your pilgrimage end.

[frosty gate]

Do you think it could be divided between of regular Choirbugs who are Pilgrims that just got to the Citadel and haven't done the final threshold and the Disciples (Choristors and the rest) who complete the trial and ascend, earning the rank

[spark valve]

sure there would be some bugs in the citadel at times still working on finishing the threefold melody

[frosty gate]

We only see Envoys and Choristors up the Cradle

[spark valve]

well they don't go and stay up there forever

some of the songclave npcs are still pilgrims iirc so haven't finished the melody but the choir enemies are generally called former pilgrims so they would've completed it

[frosty gate]

Of course not, but they see the top, get awarded with the rank and then leave?

[spark valve]

pretty much

[frosty gate]

HUh

[spark valve]

they go up pray before the divine heart and that marks the end of their pilgrimage

[frosty gate]

So you think all of them end up seeing it? Even the regular Choirbugs?

Huh

That's a nice stump to think about

[spark valve]

that is what the statues say so yeah

[frosty gate]

I'd say this trial is what would land you to the Underworks if you don't complete it then but let me check something

[spark valve]

the path to the underworks doesn't even lead past the statues

[trail wagon]

wait..if gms, made weavers, and hornet is child of a weaver, that would make her hornet's grandma, so if lace is gms's daughter, will she be hornet's aunt??

[frosty gate]

In a weird way, yeah, but the Weavers are not her real daughters

Phantom and Lace are closer to that title

And I say closer because the relationship feels more like a little girl playing mom with a pair of dolls than actual motherhood

[frosty gate]

Wdym

[spark valve]

the elevator to underworks is right after the grand gate doesn't really make sense for the melody to be what determines that

more likely the elevator itself is the trial

[inner fox]

step aunt maybe?

[frosty gate]

That's what I was thinking yeah, that's what I was checking

[spark valve]

above grand gate, climbing up those scale things, there is an entrance to choral chambers it's just blocked off by debris

[frosty gate]

Are you going to say what i think

[spark valve]

that could be the last trial, you take the easy route by just going to the elevator or you take the much harder path and get to the chambers

[inner fox]

it could be , but i feel like those that dont finish it get sent to work either way

[spark valve]

not many pilgrims are going to reach the chambers and just not finish the pilgrimage at that point the threefold melody is pretty free

[frosty gate]

Almost.
Some here, long time ago, I don't remember who, said "Maybe the trial is based on faith/rosaries, so maybe they throw the rosaries onto the scales to make a path for themselves

If you've got enough, you go in, if you don't, you go down"

[spark valve]

that would be fun but it would be hard to physically carry enough rosaries for that to make sense

plus they're beads they'd roll off and shit

[frosty gate]

The vile Covetous Pilgrim

[spark valve]

I don't think it's actually carrying like 10x its body weight in rosaries

[frosty gate]

(I'm joking, I do think it's hard to carry enough to lower those things)

[spark valve]

actually you'd need a lot more it would be an exponential increase

[frosty gate]

But they are scales though, so they did somehow reach it

[spark valve]

or it's just a hard climb since it needs to be done fast the way hornet can do it

[foggy fractal]

his greed sickens me

[frosty gate]

Pretty free in what sense? They need to get the fucking Architect's Melody and that shit is not free

[spark valve]

the way hornet gets the melody is not the way pilgrims would have gotten it back when the citadel was still alive

[frosty gate]

And the Pontiff didn't give the scroll to anybody either

[spark valve]

I mean that's probably just a plot hole

[frosty gate]

Although he can be the newest pontiff rather than the pontiff that has been there all the time

[spark valve]

the pilgrimage was completed so clearly the vaultkeepers were giving the tune out

cardinius might be talking about the physical cylinder anyways

or the pontiff might've not been doing its job

[frosty gate]

The day I don't see a contradiction or weird hole in the relevant parts of this story I'm going to throw a party

[frosty gate]

This is the likely case

I feel like the easiest to get is the Conductor's

[spark valve]

they probably all would've been easy back when you didn't have to actually discover it and there were people alive and not zombified to teach them

[frosty gate]

https://tenor.com/view/the-mask-there-you-go-son-brother-me-bother-gif-10727881234264641428

[spark valve]

12th architect just forgot the melody that's probably not how things are supposed to work

[frosty gate]

Oh yeah Twelfth is a special case but

You think the Architects were upstairs before?

[spark valve]

probably not but they could've had a machine somewhere to teach it or bugs would come down just into that part of the underworks or whatever

[frosty gate]

Makes sense

I guess the only one not doing the job was the Pontiff

[spark valve]

even that doesn't fully make cardinius's dialogue make sense but oh well

[frosty gate]

Which one

[spark valve]

it works for the first dialogues but not for the one about playing it where cardinius is still throwing a fit

Never! States our law. Never must our melody pass to a bug not Keeper! But you, fool Weaver, would shatter those tenets with reckless ease.
Hornet: Your pontiff is gone, Vaultkeeper. Your fellows have fallen to husk or thread. What laws once bound these vaults died with them.
Ackk! Fine, cursed she. Claim the sacred song, and pain to you if we both are damned forever for it!

which is him also calling learning the song theft not just stealing the actual cylinder

so yeah idrk how to reconcile it, you could argue maybe the pilgrims had to get vaultkeepers to sing the song for them but that doesn't mesh very well with them then needing to sing it up in the cradle

[frosty gate]

Maybe there were no end of the pilgrimage during the life of that Pontiff

Assuming Pontiff get changed every so often

[spark valve]

the issue there is cardinius then calling it part of the vaultkeepers' law that the melody not be learned by anyone else

which goes against pontiff just going rogue, that would otherwise be plausible

[frosty gate]

Yeah, but Hornet says that the laws died with them, so doesn't that mean that it was this one Pontiff that stablished the tenets?

[spark valve]

not really?

she's saying the order of vaultkeepers is dead so now none of their laws have to apply, not saying that that specific bug made that law

[frosty gate]

True

[spark valve]

one of many cases where tc seems to have just forgotten what they were doing halfway through writing something

sad because cardinius's dialogue is interesting on its own

[frosty gate]

Just another thursday in SK-lore

[foggy fractal]

do they have dementia...

oh no...

[spark valve]

I'm blaming rewrites

[frosty gate]

Idk, I'm holding onto the hope that the Pontiff decided to declare the law after learning the truth and since that was long ago, Cardi only knows that law

[spark valve]

maybe but it would be a bit odd for the history keepers not to know what the laws used to be

[frosty gate]

Well, they do keep info from each other

At least the Pontiff does

[spark valve]

[frosty gate]

I like the Pontiff a lot

Idk why

[spark valve]

hoarder among hoarders

[frosty gate]

Cardi also doesn't know the Melody so chances are this law is old

And statues seem to imply that the Keepers should know it

Not just the Pontiff

"We would hear the voice of the Keepers, within their grand vaults."

[foggy fractal]

the pontiff is that big dead guy?

[spark valve]

Pontiff wasn’t supposed to hoard it yes

[frosty gate]

Yeah, he's also the one displayed in the statue

Well not the same one

But it was definitely a Pontiff

I wonder how he found out the truth, the Cylinder doesn't expose any truths

[spark valve]

The cylinder plays the song and the song is part of a spell

[frosty gate]

I'm guessing all he wanted to do by hoarding it was stop the pilgrimage

[spark valve]

May be why he did it yeah

The truth made it go silent

[frosty gate]

"Holy silence" indeed

[spark valve]

it's not an incomprehensible response to learning that the 'divine heart' of your kingdom is actually a god being forcefully kept to slumber

Probably not what I would do

[frosty gate]

I don't think the TFM is the one keeping her asleep ngl, I think any song would work

I find it counterproductive to make the secret song the one keeping her asleep

The song should be playing all times

And if TFM is playing all times

There wouldn't be a challenge because you can just listen to it

[spark valve]

All the songs are probably a part of it

[fresh badger]

I mean, we know that its final state was the Architects making the mega song room beneath the Crafle

With the like 5 mega psalm cylinders

Replacing the Choir

[spark valve]

Pilgrims specifically go up and sing the threefold melody to gms directly as part of the ritual I think it probably does the magic

[frosty gate]

I mean that's probably more ritualistic than it is actually helpful to keeping her asleep

[spark valve]

Like everything else in the citadel it’s probably both

[frosty gate]

Still, they probably keep songs blasting into the cradle so she doesn't wake up

Not just TFM

[spark valve]

It’s a melody composed of three components one of which is the architect’s melody I don’t know why one would assume it isn’t all functional like that

[spark valve]

Not just that no

But that is one of the songs

[frosty gate]

And for some reason the special one for the Factions

This is just reminding me that we still don't know the exact reason why the Haunting started

[spark valve]

I mean

Whiteward journal entries at minimum imply that’s why

[frosty gate]

The Whiteward was definitely the thing that helped

But it can't be all of it

There had to be a moment where they slipped

[spark valve]

Their procedures with Silk may have prolonged life within the Citadel, but they unknowingly gifted many minds to the monarch.

[frosty gate]

The Whiteward is older than many things probably

Than the Core most likely

[spark valve]

I mean it might been used as an actual medical ward once

[frosty gate]

If she could've taken hold of them at any given point because of the procedures, she would've done so

[spark valve]

Have you done it yet, bellringer? Wriggled deep? Discovered the depths of obsession that brought this place so low?
Hornet: If you speak of this Citadel and its Silk, Caretaker, then yes, I now know the start of it.
Hornet: In the ward down below, I saw it clear, the hollowed husks, and the many torturous implements... machines to instill a bug with thread, that would see their life extended.
Aye! That's it, in part! But there's more scale to it than all that. Just think of'em greedily shoving the Silk into their shells, the madness that overcame them, eternal life for mortal bugs! Then think on how long it's all gone on...
Hornet: ...The children born of them, and all the pilgrims after... The Silk has seeded deep into this kingdom's shells, generations deep...
Hornet: No wonder Pharloom's bugs proved such easy prey for that haunted thread. It had only to seek for itself to reach them.
Ho ho! Now you're seein' it, bellringer! These poor pilgrims, all born bound to the cruel system of our world, now stricken in its new cursed web.
You at least are free from it. And free to shake it all up... if'n that's your choosing.

This pretty explicitly calls whiteward the start of the haunting

[gentle aspen]

she probably had to be in some sort of wakeful state for it to occur

[spark valve]

I doubt it actually

[frosty gate]

She had to make Lace at some point too

[gentle aspen]

“Wakeful state” as in cognizant in some way

[spark valve]

It seems like the whiteward shit is what gave her a crack to slip into even while deep in slumber

[frosty gate]

And Lace killed unhaunted bugs

[gentle aspen]

I need crack

[frosty gate]

Mod!?

[frosty gate]

This is probably it, but I feel like we're missing something

[spark valve]

It seems like ample thematic and mechanical reason

Like what more do you want

[frosty gate]

Idk, I just feel like the procedures happened and there was a period of time where GMS couldn't do anything about it

Generations passed

To the point that everything had silk inside

Did she just wait for who knows how long until everything had Silk so she could wake up?

Plus the robots also have silk inside

[gentle aspen]

it just needed build up or something

[frosty gate]

I don't I feel like Doakes

There's something there, I just can't prove it

I've got nothing but a gut feeling

[edgy nebula]

hello all

[frosty gate]

Hi Bobbi

[low oracle]

They don't, otherwise the three melodies would be useless. Why would pilgrims need to traverse the cogoworks to achieve their purpose? Common sense is enough to understand that the elevator isn't supposed to be accessible to Pilgrim Joe and Pilgrim Ben.

What is all this about @frosty gate ? What's the discussion?

[frosty gate]

We were talking about the TFM and how the Pontiff probably stopped Pilgrims from finishin their pilgrimage and then changed to "what started the haunting" discussion

[low oracle]

What's TFM?

[frosty gate]

Threefold Melody

[edgy nebula]

pontiff the real villain of silksong

[whole holly]

hey guys

[edgy nebula]

sk-discussion is cooked

[whole holly]

is there description of hollow knight charms that repeat in silksong tools and mementos, because way mementos are described does make them sound charm like

[edgy nebula]

someone said all pale beings are worms

[low oracle]

Thanks.
I'll add my opinion then.

(Age of the Conductors btw)
I'm pretty sure that the pilgrimage ends in the citadel, where pilgrims become the bugs of the choir, continuing the cycle of song. The threefold melody was never intended for them to obtain, and even less so use it. Every Faction Leader knew the truth behind the holy facade, hence they kept their melodies a secret.
The Conductors conducted the choir (fire writing TC), and mainly led the citadel. They are of great importance, hence having countless guards by their side.
The Vaultkeepers stored all the information, the prayers and any other thing they wanted to remember. They didn't really do much politically, but rather interacted with the common choir bugs. They have a stage, indicating they performed their prayers in grand fashion.
The architects were created, though it isn't clear by whom. The weavers likely had no involvement, as the architects existed only after the Whiteward, which the weavers wouldn't have allowed to exist. They themselves are silkflies in machines, putting other silkflies into machines. The first architect would be barely recognisable to the twelth one, as they probably advanced in time. They created the machines in the Underworks and the cogwork core.
At the current state, pilgrims where judged twice before entering the citadel. First the judges decide their fate, with few actually being welcomed. Secondly they either enter the citadel, or they get sent to the underworks.
The whiteward operated on the pilgrims either way, as it is connected to the citadel and the underworks. And a bug who works must never die.

[low oracle]

Ban that someone from ever making statements again.

[whole holly]

Token is only one that is a alternate description of charm, other is artifact but that is too specific

[low oracle]

How so? Charms are seemingly "things" that have gained special properties. They can come to be in many different ways, mostly by nature, manufacturing and a will.
Mementos on the other hand seem to be the "memory" of something. The nameless town, the watcher at the edge, the hero. They would all be forgotten without the memento there to remember them. The same concept probably applies to the other mementos as well, although I don't have them all yet, so idk.

[whole holly]

i meant to discuss commonalities, not differences, obviously they serve different purpose but their traits can overlap

or at least their descriptions

[stray fog]

Please elaborate

[whole holly]

regardless i am not here to discuss the differences, but similarities

[low oracle]

The question is though, why would they not have special properties then? The egg of flealia could very well be a charm, as it doesn't look like a tool with physical use (e.g. barbed bracelet, heavy belt).

[whole holly]

Charms are called stuff like token, artifacts and so on, tools also are called similar things as well as mementos which is why i want to discuss similarities between them

[whole holly]

point is to discuss and find similarities

[stray fog]

Btw why don't charms form in pharloom? The charm lore in hallownest sounds like It would be a universal thing, but it isn't

Does hornet just ignore charms because they look like useless colourful rocks to her? I feel like hornet would be knowledgeable enough to know what charms are

[whole holly]

idk, i bet Charm Lover Salubra would be mad about it

[edgy nebula]

she probably just cant use them

iirc tc said charms slot into tk’s shell in a weird graphic way but they didnt include any graphics alluding to it

[stray fog]

Still, no npcs try to give you charms as rewards
Its not like the npcs know that hornet can't use charms

[whole holly]

i think it is about perception as charms are accessories and tokens and artifacts, those terms overlap with certain tools and mementos

[edgy nebula]

shrug, for most bugs theyre probably just little trinkets, i dont see why theyd be given as a reward

[stray fog]

Some people give charms to the knight

[edgy nebula]

that’s true actually, pretty weird

[low oracle]

She probably can, they just look different. Take the egg of flealia for example; how would this not be the same as a charm?

[stray fog]

Maybe what the knight does with charms is equivalent to hornet putting tools in her crest?

Like they're the same, hornet just views them as tools?

[edgy nebula]

egg of flealia is weird cause it’s literally a memento but it’s also a tool

[stray fog]

Its a momento?

[low oracle]

Who though? Grimm would give it to anyone, and Salubra literally has a charm shop. Sly just sells general findings, so he doesn't necessarily think "oh, why don't give this thing some charms". He thinks "give me your geo".
The nailmasters glory and the pintress badge are also identical, further proving my point.

[edgy nebula]

“Icon of the mythical mother flea, passed down from caravans of old. A symbol of protection and kinship.”

[whole holly]

oh yeah, Knight can have many charm notches, but do we have description of charm notch? is it same as Memory Locket

[edgy nebula]

if this isnt a memento i dont know what is

[low oracle]

Not really. Just that the it allows the bearer to wear more charms.

[low oracle]

Is it in the memento section? Because that is the certain definition. Otherwise it is speculation.

[stray fog]

I was mainly thinking about nailmasters glory and white fragment

For the shop stuff, a similar point can be made-
Why does noone try to sell hornet any charms
(although, this point is kinda weak. I guess they just don't sell it. Nothing too strange about that)

[stray fog]

Its a memento in the literal sense of the word

Not a "hornet can hang it in a bellhome" type of memento

[edgy nebula]

no it’s a tool, but the description really fits for a memento

[low oracle]

Who would the sellers be that realistically have charms? Besides that, some tools are literally just charms.

[edgy nebula]

i think it’s just a magic memento that hornet can use ngl

[low oracle]

Charms all have 'magical' properties.
Tools have either 'physical' properties or 'magical' properties.

[stray fog]

Yeah I think people not selling charms to hornet isn't that strange

[whole holly]

hornet just uses them differently and categorizes stuff as red, blue and yellow tools

[low oracle]

In a sense they do though, if you look above your own message. They just aren't called as such.

[stray fog]

Which tools are charms? I remember the egg, but no other ones

[low oracle]

The categorizing is just what she prefers. When her nature changes, she prefers something different.

[stray fog]

Damn I didn't think of it like that

[whole holly]

Spore Shroom (Charm)and Volt Filament(Blue Tool) are born composed of living matter

[low oracle]

The magnetic dice and the rosary collecting thing, as well as the shell shard thing.
The silkspeed anklets on the other hand would excreet silk from her legs, giving her a boost. The heavy belt and barbed bracelet are obvious enough. The quicksling and pollip pouch work 'physically' too.

[stray fog]

The last few arent charms imo

[low oracle]

Also the thorns of agony and (possibly) deep focus.

[stray fog]

Like the belt is just an actual belt

No charm magic

[low oracle]

The last few are examples of non-charms, and why they aren't the same.

[whole holly]

so charms are similar to mementos and blue tools, anything that is magical accessory with effects is technically a charm

[stray fog]

Oh

[low oracle]

You can explain the belt, but not the dice, if you get what I mean.

[whole holly]

Volt Filament is charm

[stray fog]

True

The dice is magic

[whole holly]

anything that is gorgeous, mystical, one-of-a-kind accessories with a spark of power woven into their cores. is technically a charm

because that's the definition by salubra

[stray fog]

I wonder if magnetite has something to do with it

They specifically mentioned that the dice are made from magnetite

[stray fog]

I think its more of a description

Rather than an exhaustive definition

[whole holly]

Hornet is raised by Weavers in different cultures, she likely views Charms as Tools

[low oracle]

Salubra calls Lifeblood "a bit of a taboo", when it isn't really all that good after all.
Point is, we shouldn't take any NPC's word as a definition in most cases, rather as suggestions, experiences or their personal descriptions.

[whole holly]

i mean it is in every way exhaustive of all hollow knight charm, official definition would be synonymous to this

[whole holly]

but she really provides accurate insight on charms

[low oracle]

It does apply to the 'charms' in Silksong too though.

[stray fog]

I meant that the definition could include things that aren't charms

I guess "proper superset" is the correct term

[frosty gate]

I was eating what are we talking about now

[stray fog]

Charms

And tools

Are they related

[whole holly]

all the Old Hearts are charms by that definition, we can display it as memento too

[low oracle]

Are any of the charm tools found in any environments?

[whole holly]

Druid's Eyes is a charm most likely

[low oracle]

At the same time they probably aren't though, simply because "old heart" can apply to too many things.

[low oracle]

True, makes pretty much sense too.

[stray fog]

What does the eye do

I forgor

[whole holly]

i mean actual enlivened hearts of last successors, that hornet displays as accessory in home

[low oracle]

Shit. It does dogshit. If you get hit TWICE you get one silk.

[stray fog]

That seems like charm magic

[stray fog]

An entire slot for this shit 🙏

[whole holly]

Wispfire Lantern is also a charm

[whole holly]

after you upgrade it it becomes better, getting user 2 silk if hit twice

Memory Crystal is likely charm as well

[stray fog]

I think thats not a charm, but just a magical item

[frosty gate]

No

[low oracle]

Yes, even if of the dumbest kind. Trobbio's mirrors could also be charms if you think about it. They are:
-crafted, which charms can be
-don't use any physical properties to achieve their function
Definition by Salubra
-one of a kind
-sparks of power (literally)
-gorgeous
-whatever else

[frosty gate]

The Druid's eye looks like one tho

[whole holly]

all charms are magic items

[low oracle]

Why not?

[stray fog]

But is the converse true

[whole holly]

most likely, if it is one of kind at least

[stray fog]

Aren't there more lanterns in the thicket

[low oracle]

Have to disagree on that one. I'm pretty sure it is literal physical wisps that you create by burning your silk. It might or might not be magical, but we just can't say for sure.

[stray fog]

And the egg of flealia

[whole holly]

true but one is derived from Father of the Flame

[low oracle]

One of a kind seems stupid though, and it doesn't even apply. Like, how are Lifeblood Heart and Lifeblood Core unique?

[frosty gate]

Is the straight pin a charm?

[whole holly]

Reserve Bind is Artifact just like Soul Eater Charm, Reserve Bind is likely charm as well

[low oracle]

Nope. Read up my explanation if you will.

[frosty gate]

A mechanical one

[stray fog]

Not every tool, but are there some tools that are charms?

[low oracle]

Reserve bind is just a roll of silk, it definitely isn't magic.

[whole holly]

idk, it is best if you don't look too deeply, since Joni's Blessing is a charm and Salubra's Blessing isn't

[frosty gate]

That I think could be, makes sense

Although hornet doesn't call them charms

[whole holly]

silk is magic

[low oracle]

Silk is soul. And Hornet isn't a charm just because she has a soul.

[whole holly]

mechanical charms exist

[stray fog]

She doesn't call them anything
It could be that adding a charm-tool to your crest is similar to what tk does by socketing charms in its shell

[low oracle]

Team Cherry probably don't want to add an extra 200 alternate dialogues just for that.

[whole holly]

that is bad logic, Reserve Bind is accessory with spark of power, soul is also magic, hornet is magic but not an accessory

[low oracle]

Which exactly do you mean?

[whole holly]

i assume not every single charm is naturally formed

[low oracle]

Point is, soul was never part of this discussion.

[whole holly]

why? i assume Soul Twister charm is somewhat adjacent to Reserve Bind, as they are both made by Soul-manipulating Society

[stray fog]

But reserve bind isn't magical

[low oracle]

But every single charm is magic. Steady Body couldn't possibly be actually be that heavy because:
-jumps aren't affected
-it is far to small
-it is better than heavy belt, hence we can see a difference

[whole holly]

how so?

[whole holly]

Silk is magical though, it is a magical force

[stray fog]

Like they (how do I type your name) said, its just extra silk

[stray fog]

What the tool does is not magical

[low oracle]

The soul twister greatens your capabilities of focusing. It is literally a passive, magical property. Reserve bind is just literally a reserve bind. What would the magic even be otherwise??

[whole holly]

i was arguing with person who said Reserve Bind isn't charm because it is mechanical

[low oracle]

Use [shift], [option] and [v]. At least on Apple (with keyboard).

[stray fog]

Im on a phone

Lol

[low oracle]

lmao, phone doesn't even have that

[whole holly]

well reserve bind can be a spark of power, magical is never said by Salubra

[stray fog]

Yes, but it is a common property of every hk charm

[whole holly]

and being able to store one binds worth of silk is pretty powerful to me,

[low oracle]

Longnail isn't very much a piece of metal that you attach to your nail. Proving that it is magical, as it couldn't provide those capabilities physically.

Memory Crystal is also a charm probably.

[whole holly]

okay with same logic, Reserve Bind has size constraints as it is not same size as Spool enough to hold one bind's worth of silk and hornet is able to equip it

[whole holly]

so what?

[stray fog]

So its probably universal to all charms

[whole holly]

that's an assumption

[stray fog]

A fair assumption imo

[low oracle]

That applies to tools as well, since Hornet doesn't have that much space in her cloak. But the difference is that one clearly looks and functions how it would as a physical tool, while the other clearly has use if you stick it on your nail.

[stray fog]

This whole topic requires some assumptions
We don't have enough charm lore

[whole holly]

Defender's Crest isn't magical it is just stinky emblem bestowed to Dung Defender that became stinky

[stray fog]

Lmao

[stray fog]

Doesn't the white lady say that she can sense ogrim
Or is that just the smell

[random harbor]

White Lady - Reacting to Charms - Listening while wearing Defender's Crest

...That scent. Does another travel with you? Is that you Ogrim, my mighty Knight?
I cannot see you, but then time has clouded my eyes and I cannot see much. Even your booming voice falls silent upon me.
Only this small one I register, if maybe because it shares some piece of myself. This one stands clear upon a misted world.
Ah.... But my my, that potent smell does recall such joyous memory. Only a short moment we had together, compared to ruin now endured, but what shining times they were.
I am grateful you would visit, even if to see me in somewhat faded form.

@dhruv._19 used /npcs misc name: White Lady category: Reacting to Charms dialogue: Listening while wearing Defender's Crest

[low oracle]

It is eternally stinky, which is already something. It also deals damage.
Otherwise I could argue that thorns aren't magical, because they are just thorns. Of course they do damage.

[stray fog]

Nvm its just the smell

[whole holly]

but if Storing silk is mundane and Reserve Bind is disqualified, i want to tell you that Quick Focus contains crystal only amplifies because of Crystal Lens natural capabilities so it means it is also mechanical process like Reserve Bind is

[whole holly]

who said it is eternally stinky?

[low oracle]

Me. It doesn't wear off, not even when bathing.

[whole holly]

point is that we shouldn't think to hard given how much charms can vary

[low oracle]

I do think hard though....

[whole holly]

that's just gameplay, not really lore

[whole holly]

yeah but not too hard that we miss point of comparing tools, mementos and charms

[low oracle]

In lore it would still deal damage. Slabflies stink, and they don't.

[whole holly]

maybe Dung Defender's Crest is unique

[low oracle]

Which is what I am saying. Anyways, the back and forth is kinda boring so let's stop.

[frosty gate]

Yeah that's what I thought

[restive wind]

have we seen any pharloom bugs have eye streaks like in hallownest

[edgy nebula]

llast judge

[restive wind]

some of these are for sure related to the void (like the last one, seemingly fused with the Collector boss or something) but why would random city of tears aristocrats have them

so I was wondering

[restive wind]

hmm

that one has an artificially gilded shell to be fair

[edgy nebula]

alot of them just represent tears or decaying infrastructure

[restive wind]

but, yeah. those are the same streaks

regular dead old judges don't have them

oop, arguably this one does

one moment, gonna pull up the voided corpse

...if I find a screenshot

yuuup

this is a different judge btw

so. why are the city of tears portraits drawn with them

[frosty gate]

I doubt those have anything to do with void

[fleet sparrow]

I mean

The Pale King ones are down in the Ancient Basin

And we know he experimented with void, so his servants being «voided» isnt too farfetched

[plain gazelle]

in universe it's probably just the the paint running from water damage for the portraits

[frosty gate]

The paintings

[limpid summit]

Is Groal being frog like a metaphor

[spark valve]

for?

[limpid summit]

The stilkin (mosquitos) follow a bug with frog qualities

He goes against their best interest by killing the shaman

And is overall just a bum keeping them in squalor

He’s a parasite

[spark valve]

I don't really know how that aligns with being a frog

I guess he

eats bugs

maybe I just don't see the vision

[muted lantern]

Wow i never realized she cared so much about ogrim lol. Thats actually pretty sweet

[whole holly]

i mean he has tendencies, maybe you are right, him sucking up bugs and gaining a shaman spell is about his hunger for power,

[muted lantern]

I wonder how she felt about the other knights?

I assume dryya was the queens favorite

[whole holly]

frogs do consume mosquitos

Groals rule hurts Stilkin more than it helps them