sk-lore

[high bronze]

I just cant prove it

[stray fog]

Ikr

[wraith osprey]

I believe it

Nuu is baby unn

[frigid belfry]

all roads lead to rome

[high bronze]

If you literally flip their name upside down

https://tenor.com/view/charlie-day-gif-18564553

[sinful nimbus]

Clearly Unn is the in-universe term for eye stalks and Unn and Nuu were named after it

[foggy fractal]

[high bronze]

Maybe they’re supposed to be opposites and thats the joke of turning the name upsidedown

Both have a great relationship with nature but in very different ways

Unn is creating

Nuu is feasting

[frosty gate]

Unn is a pacifist but she's not opposed to hunting I believe

I don't think she would do it herself tho

[high bronze]

Slugs aren’t really hunters

Idk if the conversation can get any deeper than that

[nocturne glen]

is there any lore regarding the "masters" steel soul person said in hk in sk

[limber pulsar]

not yet

[limpid summit]

They have a “long gaze” likely World Sense

They send steelhearts with mortal vassals to watch over dead lands

And they send people (probably Steel Assassin Sharpe and the gang) to hunt people who misuse void

But not much at all

[limber pulsar]

Maybe through their servants like Steel Soul Jinn

[frigid belfry]

everything we have is essentially all of Zi's lines

[stray fog]

Steel city mentioned ‼️ ‼️ ‼️

[frigid belfry]

strength wise they seem around hb level

they have relations to void

[limber pulsar]

what is hb ?

[stray fog]

Homeboy
Higher being

[limber pulsar]

ohhh

[frosty gate]

Husband

[frosty gate]

They're so gonna send Sharpe after Hornet

[limpid summit]

They are

[frosty gate]

TF YOU DOING HERE WITH VOID
Bitch it wasn't me, it was the snails
THE SNAILS ARE DEAD, YOU ARE RELATED TO THIS MESS AND I NEED SOMEONE TO BLAME, YOU'RE DYING

Sharpe better be the most badass character we've ever fought in this games or imma be mad

[stray fog]

Imagine sharpe is a random encounter

You're chilling, and sharpe starts chasing you in the next room

[frosty gate]

That would be really cool

[stray fog]

Like pirate hunters in black flag

[frosty gate]

Or Mr X from resi

[low oracle]

Steel Assasin Sharpe. I actually think it wouldn't be so cool to encounter that dude on a steel soul run in Act1.

[stray fog]

He won't be act 1

Hornet does void shit after act 2

[frosty gate]

He would be there for act 3, not before

[deep arrow]

Did anything in the first game mention that weavers are infertile?

[whole holly]

no

[gentle aspen]

no, is a change

[twin dragon]

They aren't infertile

[tawdry flare]

They just suck at having kids

-# *in Silksong. In Hollow Knight, they had tons of kids

[edgy nebula]

do we think there’s any lore reason for the coral tower bench?

[gentle aspen]

yeah

its a chair

Bugs like sitting

[frosty gate]

It was probably a flex

It's the only Citadel structure in the entire Sands

[frosty gate]

I think this is still being debated and its all because Lil Weavers

[twin dragon]

Hornet is a thing

they can't be infertile

[limpid zealot]

What would be an average pilgrims diet be in pre-haunting pharloom

[twin dragon]

shit found on the road

[frosty gate]

Maybe Infertile isn't the word

But they are supposed to be cursed

[limpid zealot]

Are bugs even able to shit...??

[frosty gate]

Dung Defender

[limpid zealot]

This gives me even more questions

Anyway about the food

[frosty gate]

I am fully convinced that some Pilgrims go from the bottom to the top without eating

There's only two stops where they could eat

Pilgrim's Rest and Halfway Home

And Bellhart too i guess

[twin dragon]

Yes, its hard for them to reproduce, not impossible

[limpid zealot]

Bellhart has only like doohickeys and thingamabobs

[twin dragon]

Not in the literal sense yk

[limpid zealot]

It could be just that

Either that they packed up some mossberries or some background fruit of their own to snack on the way up or some bugs are eating the body of others

But would the sane bug consider such thing

[frosty gate]

Halfway home should sell food

And the Courier's literally sell food and supplies

[limpid zealot]

If I'm not wrong the couriers sell rasher (food) only when the taste of Pharloom wish is active

[frosty gate]

The send supplies to different places

I don't think it's would be weird if those supplies include food

And uuh

No name npc

The green one

In Belhart

That's a type of enemy

[limpid zealot]

The bugs and pilgrims could probably have small stomachs so a single drink from the bar boy from halfway home coulf be filling

[limpid zealot]

The Reed nerd

[frosty gate]

That one

He hunts for food

[frosty gate]

Nah i just think they starve themselves

[limpid zealot]

Would the bugs just eat moss...???

[frosty gate]

They can't hunt

[frosty gate]

You know

You just gave me like

A revelation

We have never talked about these guys

[whole holly]

guys, i think we pay too much attention to the word Pale, every higher being we know has description, Radiance is Blazing light, Unn is Green Mother, Nightmare Heart is Deepest Power, i think we obsess over Pale because it is recognized 3 times in higher beings

[whole holly]

Moss and lichen do grow on animals irl, things like sloths

helps with camouflage

[limpid zealot]

They're forgettable

[frosty gate]

They eat the moss and it grows unvoluntarily in their stomach

[whole holly]

what is your opinion on this?

[frosty gate]

Join who brother

[whole holly]

Moss Druid, obvi

[whole holly]

but fr, Moss Druid was bigger character with her own temple at one point

[limpid zealot]

Probably the dead bodies

[frosty gate]

Idk I think the word holds some significance due to some other stuff being called Pale

Like the stag

I think Pale might just be a word for Divine or something like that

[whole holly]

true but lot of stuff is also called Green, like Unn is we just pay less attention to it and attribute it less to higher beings

[whole holly]

Weavers considered themselves Divine, also fact that soul is pale

[limpid zealot]

What's that dinguses name again

[frosty gate]

Unn is called Green yeah but like

You don't see some myth called

"Greenstag"

[limpid zealot]

Pale = White

[frosty gate]

I know, I mean in the world

[frosty gate]

Overgrown

!wiki Overgrown Pilgrim

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Overgrown_Pilgrim

Hollow Knight Wiki

Overgrown Pilgrim

Overgrown Pilgrims are enemies in Hollow Knight: Silksong. They are aged pilgrims capable of spitting moss from within their stomachs.

Health

20/Black-Threaded80

Drops

13
Rosaries dropped with Thief's Mark equipped 20 3-5
Shards dropped with Shard Pendant equipped 4-7
Pilgrim Shawl

Damage Modifiers

1.4    1.2    1    1    1

Journal kills

20

Voice Actor

Lauren Koopowitz

Singing

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/File:Overgrown_Pilgrim_Sing.ogg

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/File:Overgrown_Pilgrim_Sing_02.ogg

[whole holly]

i think Everbloom and Grand Mother Silk really catapulted it's popularity, because it was originally just two Higher Beings

[edgy nebula]

i mean the one in coral tower

[limpid zealot]

Whag

[edgy nebula]

the oen far to the right

[frosty gate]

Oh that one, what about it?

[edgy nebula]

why would it be there

[frosty gate]

Resting place for the Karaka? Idk

[frosty gate]

Yeah but those two were still special

They were the only two that were Pale

[limpid zealot]

Visitors

[frosty gate]

That one makes more sense

[whole holly]

to be honest it is just 3 now, plus a flower, only 3.1x more important that other descriptions

but other descriptions kinda get zero attention, like what does Deepest Power mean?

[whole holly]

looks like GMS, kinda

[whole holly]

you would think people would associate with Elegy of the Deep or something, given how much they over analyze everything

i am pretty sure word scarlet is only ever used to describe Grimm's Heart, so it is also unique and exclusive

Radiance's mothkin are referred to as blazing kin

[gentle aspen]

wdym deepest power

And no, rad is referred to as blazing kin

the moths aren’t ever called that

[gentle aspen]

And its “blazing kin” by the pale king

[frosty gate]

Thats for Nightmare Heart iirc

Yeah its NMH

[prime mantle]

are we palescaling again

[frosty gate]

Not me

[gentle aspen]

can you give the whole quote

[frosty gate]

That's literally it lmao

"Deepest power... The Heart"

It's from Godsimper

[whole holly]

it seems i got confused by word kin, but blazing is still term unique to her, does she have anything else

[whole holly]

i am anti-palescaling, if that makes sense

[prime mantle]

nh would logically also be blazing kin since nightmare tore from dream and its also the only higher being that directly uses fire

unless we get a reveal on whatever fotf is praying to ig

[whole holly]

Nightmare King Grimm in Godmaster content Godhome: "Deepest power... the Heart..."

[gentle aspen]

Do you mean nkg

[prime mantle]

but its also like... none of these terms mean anything

[gentle aspen]

because that’s basically the nightmare heart glazing itself

it’s the deepest power of the nightmare realm

[prime mantle]

does hk have agendas now

[whole holly]

i mean it is unique to them, way word pale is to PL, WL and GMS, but people freak out because it is 3 higher beings, instead of one

[whole holly]

more common description relating to them is word Scarlet

[prime mantle]

void given focus when he cant even control tentacles from killing hornet... taking that off the tally..... charm description glaze 😮‍💨

[prime mantle]

pale = soul

[gentle aspen]

Well yes but it isn’t meant to be a real descriptor

[frosty gate]

Oh yeah mb

[whole holly]

i guess but Scarlet Essence also exists, it is not that deep

[whole holly]

what do you mean?

[gentle aspen]

honestly it’s just another retcon added to the silksong pile

[gentle aspen]

NKG is an avatar of the nightmare heart

Its the heart describing itself

[frosty gate]

Retconsong

[whole holly]

doesn't mean it is wrong

[prime mantle]

not really since we never saw shade lord have perfect control over all of void

[whole holly]

i am sure Pale King did acknowledge himself as pale too

[gentle aspen]

Its always had control over non imprinted void

the liquid in the abyss lakes has none

[prime mantle]

the tentacles also have like eyes and shit so its possible they were shaped to have wills and instincts of their own, etc etc

[gentle aspen]

That doesn’t contradict what I said

[whole holly]

they are also Void given form, maybe they do have separate will

[gentle aspen]

Void is chock full of wills void heart doesn’t care about that

[prime mantle]

it wasn't a counter

[whole holly]

i am not sure they were trying to contradict you

[gentle aspen]

if it has a powerful imprint

[gentle aspen]

Yeah my bad

[whole holly]

tell that to other guy

[gentle aspen]

Got out of a nasty lore argument recently

[whole holly]

oh

i get it

[edgy nebula]

yeah

[whole holly]

maybe it always did

glazing Pale Beings and whatnot

[prime mantle]

easy sibling of the void expo:

1. its after dream no more

a) siblings are distinct beings, with their own wills and instincts
b) void tentacles likely are as well
c) both of these attack ghost without voidheart, when he has it they stop attacking
d) they would likely attack anything without void if ghost didn't specifically forbid it (as we see in ss)
e) the everbloom wards the void and prevents the holder from being approached, meaning it's likely hornet wasn't sensed by shade lord cognizantly
f) breaking siblings returns them to the void (where they probably reform), this would likely hold for void tentacles
g) therefore ghost breaking the tentacles does not differ from him commanding them to stop, and might be easier as they're distinct

now we can keep wanking him in vs battles. yw

[frosty gate]

"DNM" 🥀

[tawdry flare]

Why did you swap from numbers to letters

[prime mantle]

the letters are all below 2

i dont like tab on mobile

[frosty gate]

Me when math

[prime mantle]

peak ending tbh. ive always found it kind of dumb how the first three endings are these poetic stories about overcoming adversity and cruelty at the cost of your own being... and the godhome endings are like, ohhhh ghost do my cultivation manhua so you can be an ssssss form gigavoid

she's lowk deus ex you find her in the trash and she lets you kill god without even having to kill your bro

or even the dreamers if you don't care about 112%.

[gentle aspen]

I would enjoy the latter

out of universe it’s literally there for hype moments and aura

[sinful nimbus]

oop this is sk-lore

[foggy fractal]

ya

[prime mantle]

i dont really think it contradicts anything in universe, was the point of the post. i think sibling of the void is made specifically so that it can be both dnm and godhome out of universe, not for aura

[gentle aspen]

you’re so based

[foggy fractal]

based where?

[prime mantle]

thank you

[sinful nimbus]

ETV slander is always welcome but TK isn't really any better off in ETV than in DNM

They're basically the same thing one is just tied to a random side quest

[prime mantle]

i always understood etv as shade lord literally being ghost personally, it's just the more sensible conclusion after you've spent like three hours killing every boss in hallownest twice to "tune your strength" the way i see it

[gentle aspen]

It is

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[foggy fractal]

mhm

[sinful nimbus]

In both endings The Knight gets to rest in the abyss though

[gentle aspen]

It’s just way less emotionally fulfilling

[gentle aspen]

I mean

[foggy fractal]

you mean!?

[gentle aspen]

they do come back and fight in godhome sometimes

[foggy fractal]

oh ya

for what purpose tho

for the love of the game 🤔

[gentle aspen]

Yes

[prime mantle]

etv is kind of just the best ending imo? i mean at worst ghost is trapped to the abyss (weve no reason to believe this) but even then, if you did everything right hollow knight, herrah, monomon and lurien are all alive

[gentle aspen]

honestly

[prime mantle]

and the abyss door is open so everyone can just like. come visit him. and since he's got the will void's not dangerous anymore

[gentle aspen]

the dreamers being alive most likely isn’t canon

[prime mantle]

well, it's not canon, but it's also not not canon? it's ambigious, we'll likely never know

[sinful nimbus]

Iunno if THK would fw being alive tbh but yes its the happiest otherwise

[gentle aspen]

I’ve said this before and it is theoretically possible but TC most likely didn’t account for it

[gentle aspen]

the way Hornet standing outside the black egg works is when you have void heart and all three dreamers are dead

Godhome doesn’t have any actual checks for this, though

[prime mantle]

but i also have no reason to believe they died if they weren't slain by ghost, the only way they die is through the dream nail, even radiance wasn't able to kill them in the dream realm. so if the egg of the black temple opened (in etv/flower, hollow walks out regardless of whether you slay the dreamers or not)... that means they either had to wake up or die

and for the former reason, the likelier explanation for me is that they woke up

[spark valve]

the spell breaking could either lead to them waking up or just dying as the magic that was sustaining them stops

[gentle aspen]

And yet in the ending Hornet is right outside the egg in the same position waiting like she does when the dreamers are dead

[spark valve]

oh are we doing etv slander etv is so bad

[foggy fractal]

schrodinger's dreamers 🤔

[gentle aspen]

So what probably happened is Team Cherry had a canon outcome for it, didn’t put any locks on it with the dreamers dead, so now it is possible in the game to just not kill the dreamers and get that ending

[prime mantle]

well, we don't know when she got there lol, i dont think it breaks the logic. there could be a pause between shade lord descending down and hornet coming across hollow

[gentle aspen]

why would there be a pause

[prime mantle]

the infection dies slowly was my explanation, it's in the vines as hornet stops before the egg inside the egg

is there a name for the chain room ill call it the egg egg

[fading shard]

It is the knight though?

[gentle aspen]

why assume it dies slowly

[fading shard]

both the term shade lord is a title the knight gets as "the lord of shades"

[gentle aspen]

like yes a vine withers away but that isn’t anything to assert that there’s a time lag

[fading shard]

and the knights statue in third form

is the shade lord "void given focus" form

additionally the void given focus form shows up for a moment in sister of the void ending

[prime mantle]

also the distance between the outer egg door and the inner egg door is rather short? if the dreamers woke up/died the moment radiance died, that would break the seals and let her in. this would happen moments before shade lord tries to break out of godseeker

[fading shard]

with the knight

[gentle aspen]

okay but you keep assuming time lags

Like why

the shade lord like, did this right after the radiance died

The time difference would be so negligible it’d be non existent

[prime mantle]

because the etv cutscene doesn't have definitive timing! we don't know how long it took him to descend to the godseeker, and writhed around in her body, before we are cut to the hornet scene.

my point is that in universe, etv is canon. so we have to assume it works, which is why im trying to create a solution. it not working would be the argument that'd need to be supplemented with evidence, as it goes against the (vague) information we are shown. does that make sense?

[gentle aspen]

just because something doesn’t have a definitive timing doesn’t mean you can assume there’s a gap

You’d need proper evidence

and like
tk was not that high up
the shade lord descended quickly in the cutscene

[glacial warren]

I mean yeah the Lord of Shades’ corruption of the Godseeker was a swift and volatile affair, once Ghost reached true ascension.

[fading shard]

well I disagree

[prime mantle]

my point, again, is that since you can get etv without slaying the dreamers in game, with no glitches or tricks, this action is necessarily also possible and functional in universe.

the timing is my explanation, its not evidence as i can not prove it

[fading shard]

pale beings are soul related

that's their connection

[whole holly]

With same logic Scarlet Is Nightmare Essence related

[gentle aspen]

what are you disagreeing with here

[glacial warren]

Pale Beings are generally linked to living beings located in the mortal realm. They directly die to organisms, I.E. the actual Bugs of their respective lands.

[gentle aspen]

what?

[whole holly]

Scarlet Flame is Nightmare Essence

[fading shard]

the pale beings are confirmed to be soul relateed though?

[gentle aspen]

yes

[glacial warren]

Just as Unn connects to the plant life and flora, and beings like the Radiance and Nightmare King were something more abstract.

[gentle aspen]

We know this

[whole holly]

I didn’t say it wasn’t, what are you disagreeing with exactly?

[fading shard]

regarding pale beings not being special

[whole holly]

True

[glacial warren]

I mean Pale beings I feel are still truly important and unique beings. They’re literal flesh-and-blood Deities, after all.

[gentle aspen]

That’s not what they said

[whole holly]

They are special but that attention is over saturated, compared to others, that was my point

[gentle aspen]

they said “people give too much importance to the moniker”

which they do

[whole holly]

Unn is also flesh and blood, if that’s what you mean

[fading shard]

Well the game puts a lot of focus on pale beings which is why the community does

[glacial warren]

I think the Pale Beings are given the most focus because of the Gods of the realms, they’re the ones who most primarily directly inhabit the mortal plane and interact with mortals directly.

[gentle aspen]

All of them interact with mortals direcrly

[whole holly]

So? We can still focus too much

[fading shard]

I'm just saying that there's a reason why the community puts so much attention on them

[prime mantle]

...well. yes.

[whole holly]

I know that there is a reason

[prime mantle]

the red memory isnt just her dress

[gentle aspen]

And only two higher beings don’t inhabit that are made of a form of essence

[glacial warren]

Well true but most of the other Deities are more passive or abstract. Unn is content to just camp out in her giant pool of acid, Radiance/Nightmare King rule over a more metaphysical realm, and the Lord of Shades was fine being worshipped as just the darkness as a concept.

[gentle aspen]

the lord of shades did not exist prior

Unn isn’t abstract or passive, she’s currently weakened

[gentle aspen]

She made the entirety of greenpath and the mosskin from her dream

[fading shard]

The lord of shades is literally the knight though?

[glacial warren]

It’s very much hinted that it did, at some previous point. If you’ve found the Void Monoliths around Hallownest, they have a very familiar shape.

[gentle aspen]

No, it isn’t

[fading shard]

as it's said by the ancient corpse the void wasn't united

[gentle aspen]

In fact it is directly contradicted by the game

[fading shard]

and was scattered

[whole holly]

Point is that despite all the reasons and explanations, we obsess over it too much

[random harbor]

Hunter's Journal: Void Idol

Description:
Attuned
Rare artifact from a time before Hallownest. Contains a drop of liquid from the Abyss.

Ascended
Rare artifact from a time before Hallownest. Volatile liquid of the Abyss writhes within.

Radiant
Rare artifact from a time before Hallownest, its spires twined in a unified form. Contains a large amount of liquid from the Abyss, perfectly still.

Hunter's notes:
"Inspired or mad, those ancient bugs. They devoted their worship to no lord, or power, or strength, but to the very darkness itself."
- Lemm

@kingoclowns used /journal name: Void Idol text: Full Text

[gentle aspen]

Read the Hunter’s Notes

[fading shard]

ehhh fair

[foggy fractal]

lemm has tuff quotes

[glacial warren]

How so? Like I said there’s hints that this creature was whole at some point and did exist in a previous timeframe, back when the Void had active worshippers.

[fading shard]

the knight is literally the shade lord

[gentle aspen]

And the shade cloak bug explicitly says “void power without unity”

[fading shard]

both the statues

[gentle aspen]

read what was sent

[prime mantle]

whats the current convo i was daydreaming

[glacial warren]

Well yes, it becomes the driving consciousness as Void was re-united and given a will.

[gentle aspen]

the “lord of shades” isn’t some entity that existed prior

The knight is it

It did not exist prior

void wasn’t united before

[fading shard]

nowhere is it said it was once united before

the knight is the lord of shades

it's the being that united the void

[glacial warren]

I think it did exist at some point. Again, much evidence points that it was here at some point, possibly back before even Radiance’s time.

[gentle aspen]

Where is this evidence

[fading shard]

your literally only evidence

[whole holly]

Whether or not Lord of Shades existed before knight

[fading shard]

are of the void statues

[glacial warren]

Since we know the darkness, I.E. the Abyss/Void was worshipped by the old Bugs, long before Hallownest’s time.

[gentle aspen]

Because I gave you explicit evidence to the contrary and you completely ignored it

[prime mantle]

lord of shades is pale lowkey but you won't get me to argue on that

[fading shard]

It isn't implied they worshipped a single entity

[gentle aspen]

being worshiped doesn’t mean it was united or existed before. They worshiped void. They did not worship the lord of shades

[glacial warren]

Your evidence didn’t prove or disprove anything. In fact, it only supports my own theorem.

[gentle aspen]

Its directly contradicted

[gentle aspen]

how

how does it support your theory

[whole holly]

Lord of Shades is clearly pale scarlet green blazing higher being

[edgy nebula]

they say "void cleanse us", not "void given focus cleanse us"

[gentle aspen]

How does someone saying “those ancient bugs did not worship a lord or power” mean the lord of shades existed before

[frosty gate]

You are on fire today

[fading shard]

THANK YOU

[gentle aspen]

genuinely how

[glacial warren]

Still, it’s implied they glimpsed it before at some point. Many of the Void Monoliths, the biggest ones at lesst, bear resemblance to the Lord of Shades’ distinctive head shape.

[foggy fractal]

void wasn't locked in before 😔

[gentle aspen]

NO IT ISNT

READ THE DIALOGUE

[fading shard]

no it doesn't????

look at the horns of the void statues

they have two horns

[grizzled summit]

Hello again @gentle aspen

[random harbor]

Hunter's Journal: Void Idol

Hunter's notes:
"Inspired or mad, those ancient bugs. They devoted their worship to no lord, or power, or strength, but to the very darkness itself."
- Lemm

@kingoclowns used /journal name: Void Idol text: Hunter's notes

[fading shard]

the shade lord has multiple

[glacial warren]

Man you seriously need to go play Hollow Knight at some point.

[gentle aspen]

IT IS RIGHT THERE

RIGHT THERE

READ IT

[polar turtle]

is the sisters of the void ending the "true" one? Because I just got it

[fading shard]

I 112% hollow knight my guy

[frosty gate]

Joker you are not having a good day today, you've had to deal with some shit

[prime mantle]

maybe if it eated radiance instead of destroying it :/ and eated nightmare heart instead of ritualing it :/
and eated unn instead of shaping it. and....

why was ghost such a BUM. didn't he see the powerscaling potential???? he could have at least kept raidance as his housewife!!!!!

[fading shard]

maybe you should play hollow knight

[glacial warren]

Then how did you miss this detail? It’s literally right there.

[gentle aspen]

there is no need to throw insults

[glacial warren]

Unless you just never looked at the Void Monoliths too closely.

[gentle aspen]

mate you are ignoring the detail where we are TOLD they worshiped no lord

[sinful nimbus]

what are y'all talking bout

[gentle aspen]

And what is a void monolith

that’s not a thing

[whole holly]

And GMS too if he tried

[frosty gate]

Zero thinks Lord of Shades exist before

[foggy fractal]

void monoliths apparently

[gentle aspen]

what are you even talking about

[polar turtle]

idk lmao, they debating in the wrong channel

[gentle aspen]

I swear if they’re talking about the soul totems ma

[sinful nimbus]

Void monolith? Expedition 33?

[glacial warren]

Well the Lord of Shades likely didn’t need to be worshipped as a Lord to exist. It was, simply, the Void’s will.

[gentle aspen]

We don’t know

[prime mantle]

hornet... meet your NEW stepgranddaddy

[gentle aspen]

okay so you’re ignoring evidence

[polar turtle]

it looks like the most logical one for me

[frosty gate]

SK and HK lore are interchangeable

[fading shard]

ah yes these monoliths look like the shade lord sure

SURE

[sinful nimbus]

Lord of Shades refers to the bearer of Void Heart

Which is The Knight

[glacial warren]

I’m not? Your evidence does not prove or disprove anything.

[fading shard]

And if you're referring to this then that's a idol

[gentle aspen]

“They worshiped no lord or power”
“They don’t mean the Lord of Shades”

[fading shard]

NOT A MONOLITH

[gentle aspen]

that’s not even an idol its a corrupted soul totem

[glacial warren]

Not those, the bigger ones. The sort of hunched-looking ones. You can find them in the Ancient Basin, Ancestral Mound, and Soul Sanctum.

[prime mantle]

anyway shade lord didn't need to eat gms because he's already pale so at least he got that right 🙂‍↕️

[gentle aspen]

[sinful nimbus]

The Void Worshippers making totems that look voidy is no surprise

[gentle aspen]

I knew it

[frosty gate]

How does "Not worship a lord" not disprove that Lord of Shades was not real before

[sinful nimbus]

Not really evidence of the lord of shades (who also looks voidy) existed in the past (which is debunked by void idol)

[foggy fractal]

idk man they look pretty similar to me!

[prime mantle]

well who do you think fathered the arcane eggs? i had to lay them somehow you guys

[whole holly]

One could have been AC but other is pretty abstract

[fading shard]

THESE

[glacial warren]

Exactly. This here is sheer, irrefutable proof that this old God did exist at some prior point, even if it wasn’t worshipped directly.

[fading shard]

you're talking about these?

They don't look close at all

[gentle aspen]

they’re being sarcastic

[fading shard]

wtf do you mean

[whole holly]

Obviously Arcane Bug

[edgy nebula]

this is the only one that looks even vaguely similar and even then like.. come on

[gentle aspen]

They don’t look similar at all aside from a passing resemblance

the horns are entirely different the limbs the bottom half

[prime mantle]

was maskmaker rizzed up.... how old is he....

[frosty gate]

Hi Andy 👋

[foggy fractal]

hey guys

[prime mantle]

wait nvm he's mortal if the skong maker is, theory dead :(

[gentle aspen]

By this logic primal aspids prove the existence of the shade lord

[foggy fractal]

ohhh I don't know...

they all look pretty similar...

[glacial warren]

My guess is that the old bugs only ever saw the most fleeting glimpses of the actual Shade itself, and so the Monoliths in its image are simplified representations of it. But even then they worshipped not the creature itself, but Void as a whole.

[prime mantle]

maybe the primal aspid mother laid the arcane eggs. and it was like a dark edgy mother so thats why the eggs are void

[gentle aspen]

you do realize your theory requires assumptions yes

[fading shard]

This is fanon

[prime mantle]

is there a voided womb charm

[frosty gate]

Actually why does the Shade Cloak bug say Lord of Shades tho

[fading shard]

This goes against the NO LORD

[gentle aspen]

And ignoring evidence

[fading shard]

WHAT PART ABOUT WORSHIPPING NO LORD

[gentle aspen]

that is what they are

[fading shard]

Do you not get

THE TITLE OF THIS THING IS SHADE LORD

IN THE FILES

[gentle aspen]

they lord over the shades

[fading shard]

LORD

[whole holly]

Shape you are talking about is based on Void and Ancient Bugs themselves

[glacial warren]

Well it’s as close as we’re going to get to having info on the time before Hallownest.

[prime mantle]

idr this can you send

[fading shard]

tf you mean

the game makes it clear they only worship the void

[frosty gate]

Yeah I get that, but did it come up with the name on the spot lmao

[fading shard]

not a void entity

[edgy nebula]

isnt the void bowl guy ancient civilization? he does refer to lord of shades

[fading shard]

Can you answer what part of no lord means

[glacial warren]

Still the fact those Monoliths/idols exist tells us they saw the Void take some kind of shape or form at some point.

[edgy nebula]

or is that something else

[fading shard]

To the knight

[whole holly]

Mind also seems to be sealed

[fading shard]

after we obtain the void heart

when we unite the void

[gentle aspen]

We have info
We are told they worshiped no lord or power

[prime mantle]

ts is alive? maybe this guy laid the eggs

[gentle aspen]

which you are going “nah in this case they are worshiping a lord”

[gentle aspen]

arcane eggs aren’t biological eggs

[fading shard]

the eggs are said to house information

[gentle aspen]

They’re made entirely of stone and were made to house information

[glacial warren]

Well still again those Monoliths and Idols they crafted in the Shade’s vague shape tells us they at least saw the Void take some kind of manifest form or avatar.

[fading shard]

just as I said yes

[fading shard]

are you ignoring in game dialogue

[prime mantle]

okay so get this, what if the ancient civilization was REALLY fucked up

[whole holly]

At most what you provided only suggests Void Constructs, that’s still speculative but we know they did not worship Lord of any kind, not even Lord of Shades

[gentle aspen]

They are not monoliths
They are soul totems
The variance in their bodies implies this is what they looked like

[gentle aspen]

and you keep saying “in the shade’s vague shape”

you jnow what else is in the shade’s vague shape?

The Hunter

Is he the previous shade lord?

[foggy fractal]

ohhhh maybe

[gentle aspen]

also primal aspids have a similar head shape

are they remnants of the ancient civilization?

[sinful nimbus]

yeah they don't look a whole lot like void but it wouldn't be particularly weird if they did see voidy things

[glacial warren]

Well like I said they most likely did not worship the Lord of Shades directly but rather Void itself as a whole. The Lord likely only came into being as consequence of that worship, instilling it with some manner of mind or will.

[gentle aspen]

ooh maybe this id another shade lord

[foggy fractal]

me on a friday night

[prime mantle]

we know the void tendrils were made to hate or whatever from hornet's desc, it could be that the ancients filled biological eggs with information and then voided and petrified them...

[gentle aspen]

I mean it bares a vague resemblance

[foggy fractal]

true

[prime mantle]

like a vessel

[gentle aspen]

They’re both black!

[edgy nebula]

this soul totem always looked weird to me

[whole holly]

Yeah, things like void constructs

[fading shard]

nah actually the pale king time travelled

and he's actually the shade lord

[gentle aspen]

Actually here’s another soul totems

[fading shard]

Totally

trust me

[gentle aspen]

PK’s the shade lord!

[edgy nebula]

why does he look like that he looks weird

[gentle aspen]

The knight is the pale king guys

[foggy fractal]

black = void
orange = infection
blue = lifeblood
red = nightmare
we all know ts!

[sinful nimbus]

Wavy horns

[gentle aspen]

It’s not even that weird

[sinful nimbus]

Good for her

[edgy nebula]

naw its pv

[gentle aspen]

Like it just looks like an armless legless bug

[prime mantle]

dont gang up on zero tho it's prolly overwhelming

[gentle aspen]

Like all of em

[whole holly]

Lord came as consequence of Knight obtaining void heart and could not have been worshipped by AC in any way

[edgy nebula]

we never see any soul totem with limbs, theyre also all relatively the same shape

it just stands out

[fading shard]

Man zerotwo must feel quite overwhelmed by getting clowned on

[fading shard]

thank you nika

[glacial warren]

I still think there must have been an original Lord of Shades at some point. The Monoliths in its image wouldn’t bear so close a resemblance to it otherwise.

[edgy nebula]

any other ideas for topics?

tc shouldve added soul totems in silksong's abyss

[glacial warren]

My closest guess is that the Void achieved that state back in the height of its power, when Bugs began worshipping the Void and instilled it with some kind of will or mind. It gained a consciousness, though the Lord likely lost its unity and shape after it stopped being worshipped, fracturing apart in the process. Now all that’s left are those writhing Void Tendrils, some lingering sliver of its presence.

[whole holly]

That’s just Team Cherry’s art style, they explicitly did not worship lord of any kind, but there could have been Void Constructs like Shade, perhaps that is what you mean but no one was able to unite and become lord of shades before Knight

[prime mantle]

see this conversation would be easier to have if i went into why a lord of shades has to be pale in order to exist at all but its not a 12 pm topic for me tbhhhhh

your homework for today is to think on the connection between pale, mind, soul, and focus

[whole holly]

Why didn’t they, we know Hornet can turn Soul into Silk because of her unique ability, but Void would have eaten it

[edgy nebula]

oh yeah that's true

[glacial warren]

Well true but the Lord likely did exist, even if its worshippers were content to only worship the Void as a concept. They made those Monoliths likely based on the vague glimpses they could see of the resulting God their worship of the dark created.

[prime mantle]

why would pharloom build silk totems no one liked her (im stupid these literally exist)

oh soul totems. only the shamans and weavers know how to use soul iirc

[whole holly]

It didn’t we know they did not worship lord of any kind… not at all

[glacial warren]

Also true, we don’t see any Monoliths or Idols in Pharloom representing the Grand Mother, likely due to her generally poor reputation.

[prime mantle]

well her cocoon symbol is everywhere but i dont think anyone but smart or old people know she even exists

[glacial warren]

Again yes they worshipped the Void, not the Shade their worship of said Void created, but it’s likely their worship of the dark may have been what initially instilled the Void with some semblance of a mind or will.

[whole holly]

That’s shade you are describing, not the lord, they did not worship a lord, only void

It is possible they became shades but why would they worship themselves

[glacial warren]

The Lord of Shades was the result of that worship, back when Void was unified and whole as a singular darkness. Sometime after its worshippers died out, it likely dissolved and lost its shape, becoming the fractured Void Tendrils we see in the Abyss.

[prime mantle]

the reason soul totems don't exist is bc unlike the pale king who used them everywhere and had neighbors or older civilizations that knew soul usage gms had 0 control over her civilization and the weavers kept their silk totems in their own constructions. besides them the only pharloom magicians are shamans, who are too scared to build much besides their chapel

[whole holly]

It wasn’t it never happen, no proof of it

[glacial warren]

Like we see fleeting glimpses of the actual creature, but it’s become broken, fragmented.

[prime mantle]

i think los existing could be a cool idea but we have no reason to believe it did

[whole holly]

That’s not Shade Lord but regular shade

[glacial warren]

Again if you’ve seen the larger Void Monoliths, they bear an uncanny resemblance to the Lord of Shades, so we know the creature must have existed back in Void’s prime.

[whole holly]

It also bears resemblance to primal aspid, you are wrong

[glacial warren]

How am I wrong? There’s only one entity with that mask-like, wide head shape and the long, curving multitude of horn-like protrusions coming off the left, right, and top ends of it.

[prime mantle]

void is regret and memory so the totem shape could also have come before current shade lord's shape

as an instill of ancient civilization on void

there's too many variables even if it is connected

[glacial warren]

Possibly. The Void is primarily amorphous, so its avatar’s shape likely isn’t entirely static.

[whole holly]

Bardoon literally says strength didn’t exist before: Ohhhmmmm... Tiny thing... It evolves beyond that Wyrm. Such union in a single being. A strength before unseen. Would it too challenge nature? It could perhaps defeat it.

[frosty gate]

We should ask TC too while we're at it

[whole holly]

Shape being similar is not really enough anyways because it could have other reasons to be similar

[glacial warren]

In fact this might also explain why the Vessels were never truly empty despite being drained by the Void. The Void still holds little pieces of the scattered conscious and will of the original Lord, so the Vessels may have inherited what little mind they got away with from it.

[whole holly]

Bardoon and Mister Mushroom are TC self inserts

[whole holly]

That’s not why…

[glacial warren]

Man you’re just kind of being a brick wall for the sake of brick wall at this point.

[prime mantle]

this could mean unseen in him tbf but this convo is going in circles anyway

[whole holly]

Bardoon says void heart never existed , what do you want me to tell you, facts are your brick wall not me

[glacial warren]

Yeah fair point. Some folk just don’t listen to reason, even when all the evidence points to the contrary.

[foggy fractal]

why are we builting brick walls?

[whole holly]

I mean Bardoon likely only exists to give us lore

[prime mantle]

i wasnt agreeing with you

you're a brick wall

[frosty gate]

To protect us from this cruel World Andy 💔

[glacial warren]

How a, I the brick wall here? I’m the one giving out all the supportive evidence for my theorems.

[whole holly]

That’s you, they didn’t worship a lord and lord of shades was unseen before knight, those are facts…

[prime mantle]

yeah but i like to be careful with how that lore is read yk

[glacial warren]

Well like I said the Lord didn’t need to be worshipped as a singular self to still exist. Its existence likely began because the Void was, as a concept, given the power of belief via worship.

[whole holly]

Mister Mushroom and Bardoon may as well be Team Cherry self- inserts given their roles to narrative

[prime mantle]

that's well and good, but you kept arguing the same point even when it wasn't productive. i dont agree with people making fun with the jokes or whatever, but i also dont see a reason to continue when your point isn't substantial enough to convince others yk

[whole holly]

That breaks the definition of what lord of shades is…

[glacial warren]

The old bugs worshipped the dark and thought it to have a will, and in doing so gave it a will, a mind. That original consciousness, at some point, coalesced into a physical avatar for the Void as a whole.

[glacial warren]

I don’t need to convince them, they’re just choosing not to listen.

[whole holly]

That’s just shade/ void given form, not Lord of Shades

[glacial warren]

Again, Void Monoliths and Idols point to the Lord of Shades’ existence.

[whole holly]

Facts disprove you, how am I supposed to believe something that is factually wrong?

[frosty gate]

Where do you get that they thought it had a will

[glacial warren]

I’m the one giving the facts and hard evidence here.

[whole holly]

It points to Shades existence, because Lord of Shades is power unseen before knight

[glacial warren]

They worshipped the dark, they communed with it. It was their deity, the focal point of their religion. Intentionally or otherwise, they, on some level, tried to communicate with it, prayed to it.

[prime mantle]

i know, but we aren't team cherry, so how we read what these characters say matters. bardoon here could be saying a voidheart is a power that's never existed before and that ghost is challenging nature (radience?) itself, but he could also be saying that the strength has never existed in him before, and that he's challenging his own nature

[glacial warren]

And after enough time, something began to answer back.

[prime mantle]

and we don't know for certain which

[whole holly]

I brought sources from wiki and so on, you brought speculation

[prime mantle]

i think mister mushroom is useless for this reason bc i cant tell jack shit from what he says lol

[glacial warren]

I don’t need speculation, I literally spoke from what we can see and interact with in the game itself.

There is physical, visual, undeniable and irrefutable proof that that the Lord of Shades did exist back in Void’s prime, when it had active worshippers.

[whole holly]

And based on vague resemblance, you provided unsubstantiated theory, rule of thumb is looks don’t prove anything

[frosty gate]

"Rare artifact from a time before Hallownest. Contains a drop of liquid from the Abyss/Volatile liquid of the Abyss writhes within/its spires twined in a unified form. Contains a large amount of liquid from the Abyss, perfectly still." "Inspired or mad, those ancient bugs. They devoted their worship to no lord, or power, or strength, but to the very darkness itself."

They didn't think it had a will

That's a very strecthed interpretation

[whole holly]

Bardoon says that’s wrong

[glacial warren]

Still they prayed to it. They communed to it.

Intentionally or not, they still worshipped the Void as a concept. From that concept sprang the original consciousness that gave the Void something resembling a will.

[frosty gate]

Doesn't mean it had a focus, will, or any sort of consciousness

[glacial warren]

But it likely gained some, after enough time. Gods in Hollow Knight are born and sustained via worship, every Higher Being is either created or sustained by that power of belief.

[whole holly]

Nothing proves worship does anything to void at all

[whole holly]

Nobody believes in white lady how does she sustain herself

[glacial warren]

She had worshippers. She was literally a Goddess of Life, and the Bugs of Hallownest likely worshipped her, as well as possibly some of the sentient Flora that defected from Unn’s corner of the wilderness.

[frosty gate]

"Created" Who???

[whole holly]

Provide evidence of that

[prime mantle]

this is such an unproductive convo can you guys cut it out so i can talk about how i dont like how act 3 was written

[frosty gate]

Honestly yeah

[whole holly]

Worship only changes essence based higher beings I guess

[whole holly]

Okays sure

[glacial warren]

Yeah same. This is getting nowhere, despite my best efforts.

[plain gazelle]

i like act 3

[frosty gate]

Not really, GMS did make the Weavers just to worship her

[foggy fractal]

act 3 slander? let's go!

hell yeah! let's go son!

[whole holly]

Yeah true, I forgot that, thanks

[prime mantle]

okay before i talk about that i have to talk about why i loved acts 1 and 2

[frosty gate]

There's no worse blind man than the one who does not want to see

[glacial warren]

That’d describe you and Nika pretty well, yeah.

Accurate self-description through and through.

[whole holly]

I have evidence from wiki, all you ever had was vague resemblance, and you went nuts…

[glacial warren]

Anyhow, what did you seem to find unappealing about Act 3?

[frosty gate]

Hilarious joke

[edgy nebula]

the writing isnt the best

[glacial warren]

Yeah can agree on that front.

[edgy nebula]

or thats the complaint i hear the most

[whole holly]

At least we got some lore: no will, no self, shade

[whole holly]

From Arcane Egg

[prime mantle]

in act 1 and act 2, pharloom, its characters and its narrative exist on a stage of their own. the entire game revolves around new people, new concepts, new relationships and new stakes. the entire narrative is independent of the events of hollow knight, with our only tie being hornet and her perspective. until act 3, you can't even know if it's a prequel or a sequel

[frosty gate]

Whatever that means

[prime mantle]

until act 3/the ending of act 2*

[glacial warren]

True. We don’t get much confirmation until you get to Shellwood and find that one Choral Commandment.

[edgy nebula]

im happy with the hearts though, theyre one of the great parts about act 3

[frosty gate]

I'm sorry, I really do not want this to sound mean, but if you don't know if its sequel or prequel by act 3 you did not pay attention

[whole holly]

It kinda proves that Ancient Civilization only worshipped void, that we know of

[frosty gate]

Void with no will

[whole holly]

Yeah, will is only obtained after it consumes something with a will

[plain gazelle]

i mean i would argue there's nothing that absolutely confirms the game is a sequel until literally the final cutscene of act 3

although red memory heavily implies it ofc

[glacial warren]

It’s somewhat off the beaten path but there is that Commandment on the cliff outside Shellwood.

[plain gazelle]

all the commandment says is that hornet was captured from hallownest

which we know

[glacial warren]

It reads that they sent a squad of the Choir bugs to fetch Hornet from the Kingdom of the White Wyrm, confirming this took place after the events of Hollow Knight.

[prime mantle]

i read everything. the only implication is the one line from the lace convo and hornet could easily be referring to believing pale king is dead (plasuable in a prequel) over believing radiance is dead (likely the case for the sequel)

[plain gazelle]

how does that confirm that? hornet was in hallownest for thousands of years before HK

[whole holly]

What about the fact that weavers left Hallownest and Hornet knows she is last of her kind, isn’t that unfeasible in prequel?

[glacial warren]

Still the fact they retrieve her tells us this is after the Infection died out. They wouldn’t have survived the trip otherwise.

[plain gazelle]

the weavers left hallownest at some unspecified time before the events of HK

[plain gazelle]

and that's speculation

[whole holly]

There is still one weaver in Hallownest in events of HK, still points stands thanks to her

[glacial warren]

No no it’s pretty clear they wouldn’t have survived if Radiance were still in play. They’re all sentient bugs with minds and wills who can dream and thus would have been made vulnerable to the Infection, either being slaughtered by the Husks, or claimed by the blight itself.

The fact they even reached Hornet at all, let alone succeeded in capturing her, tells us this is post-Radiance.

[plain gazelle]

unless that weaver is hornet's direct descendent or parent (which we know she's not) hornet would still be "last of her line"

[whole holly]

I didn’t specify line, she is last of her kind that she knows of in events of Pharloom

[glacial warren]

Technically Hornet is the last of ‘her kind’ because she’s an entirely unique being, being a Wyrm/Weaver hybrid Demigod. She’s the only one of ‘her kind’ to exist.

[plain gazelle]

i don't remember this line

[whole holly]

Still doesn’t make sense being prequel to events of Hallownest

[gentle aspen]

they left as a result of the infection
and deepnest recently got infected considering one weaver was left behind and leaves soon after

[prime mantle]

in act 3, these unique stakes, challenges, environments... are interrupted by the void. and we get confirmed that act 3 is indeed a sequel... very clunkily. hornet and the shamans are constantly loredumping everywhere, we are forcefully tied back to the stakes of hallownest, having to face a force from the first game using a method from the first game. which quite literally requires you to suck pharloom's history dry. couldn't be more on the nose than that.

what was an elegant exploration of this new, vibrant world and the new ideas and stories it brought onto the table becomes... the same story from before, but with (an albeit sweet) twist at the end. it's just uncouth. i did not like the story of act 3

[whole holly]

She is looking for weavers actively to see their species again if they are alive

[glacial warren]

The closest thing she has to anything resembling family were the Weavers of Deepnest, who were still only half-related to her by blood, and the Vessels, who are still only half-siblings at best being part Wyrm, part Root, and part Void.

[gentle aspen]

if they’re only half related to you they’re still family

[whole holly]

Yeah

[glacial warren]

I know but still. In terms of Hornet being part of any particular species, she’s the only creature like herself in all of the known world, and will be the only one like her to ever exist. She’s a singularly unique being.

[gentle aspen]

okay?

[whole holly]

Also all the endings make it unfeasible, Weaver Queen Hornet and Twisted Child

[gentle aspen]

that’s just being pedantic

[prime mantle]

i kind of just knew from the moment i saw void i wouldn't be satisfied with act 3 tbh. im unsure if this is an opinion others share or not, when i look up "i didnt like act 3" the results are "karmelita is so hard zomggggg"

[gentle aspen]

A sizable chunk of lore users here dislike act 3 because of it

[edgy nebula]

snail shamans turned pharloom into retconworld

[prime mantle]

that's interesting to know

[foggy fractal]

retconsong 🥶

[glacial warren]

Honestly the only parts about Act 3 I did enjoy was getting to explore Verdania and seeing the new stuff in the Abyss.

[sinful nimbus]

Snail shamans and the heahrts are chill

Void and everbloom were euuugh they didn't fit

[whole holly]

Did not you know they were fixated on it?

[gentle aspen]

eh

the hearts are random and written poorly

[whole holly]

The Void?

[edgy nebula]

except for nyleth she's the only bad heart

[sinful nimbus]

Well yes but focusing on the powers that came before GMS is cool

[gentle aspen]

no they’re all kinda meh

[sinful nimbus]

They aren't executed very well though I agree

[whole holly]

Other way around buddy

[plain gazelle]

I don't think that's totally fair though. The callbacks in act 3 aren't just pointless memberberries, they're extending the established themes of motherhood, family and sacrifice back to our main character, Hornet, which inevitably means reckoning with stuff we already know about her mothers and thus HK. Plus the old hearts are a cool way to extend Pharloom's history with a pagan gods vs Christianity parallel

[gentle aspen]

they come out of nowhere and exist so you have mcguffins

[foggy fractal]

y'know who isn't meh ? fayforn!

[edgy nebula]

fair

[glacial warren]

yeah true. I would have been fine if they’d just had the Abyss be an optional location you could access and get some cool spoopy Lore from.

[edgy nebula]

stupidforn is not apart of the heart gang...

[gentle aspen]

void doesn’t extend any of those things meaningfully with its presence

[plain gazelle]

i feel like the criticisms aren't really of act 3's writing and more of the fact that the extra information we get contradict popular theories which were never confirmed in the first place

[gentle aspen]

neither does the everbloom

neither do the old hearts

[prime mantle]

its basically like:

act 1 and 2 hornet: i must take down this mysterious, sad monarch if i want to be free
npcs: we will subtly nudge you towards our histories so you may understand

act 3 hornet: okay so i have this flower you guys. that i need to get from my memories somehow. it will fix everything because that's how it works now
snail shamans: so true!!! have the dream-snail!!!!

[plain gazelle]

the void is presented as a force from hornet's family's past that she has to reckon with, that's it's place in the story

[gentle aspen]

no it isn’t

again, comes out of nowhere

[whole holly]

That’s because of information being vague in first game

[gentle aspen]

She isn’t “reckoning with the forces of her family’s past” she’s just going “shit shit shit there’s void I need the Everbloom to stop it”

[whole holly]

Also I didn’t like fact that Silksong was marketed as world haunted by Silk and SONG, what is up with that?

[glacial warren]

The Void’s only relation is, slightly, to the White Lady, but only due to her hand in the Pale King’s desperate plan to make a Pure Vessel. It is only through those dark times that she had any possible knowledge or association.

[sinful nimbus]

What is there to reckon with

[foggy fractal]

void

[glacial warren]

Well it’s haunted by song because this is in reference to the lullaby the Choir sings to keep Grand Mother Silk dormant and asleep.

[sinful nimbus]

The void beings had their conclusion in Dream No More

[gentle aspen]

void is just there
she isn’t having some epiphany or character struggle

Act 3 is literally Hornet fixing her fuck ups

[sinful nimbus]

The past of the family was literally already resolved

[glacial warren]

The song faltering and Silk risking waking up is what kickstarts the Haunting and thus most of the game’s plot.

[whole holly]

Doesn’t haunt bugs themselves though

[prime mantle]

i feel like you could expand on the themes of motherhood, which were done splendidly, in another way? red memory could have come as a consequence of a million other things, it didn't necessarily have to be "the everbloom thing"

[glacial warren]

To an extent it does. The song faltering and starting to go silent is what causes Silk to start becoming lucid, and, desperate to wake herself up, initiates the Haunting.

[whole holly]

That’s too indirect to say land is haunted by song, when land is maintained by it

[prime mantle]

song is how hornet accesses the past of the land. you could say that is a haunting, but it's not a posession or evil, if that's what you're looking for

[whole holly]

It is mentioned in same context as silk so that’s confusing either way

[glacial warren]

Yeah true. It’s more haunted by song because of its echo, because song is the force by which Pharloom operates and is the focal point of the Citadel’s religion.

[whole holly]

Haunted by part that’s accessible by song

[prime mantle]

well the name of the game is really really really old. this was gonna be a hk dlc

[glacial warren]

No matter where you go in Pharloom, there are bugs who sing and musical instruments and music-powered devices pretty much everywhere.

[whole holly]

Or song being responsibility that haunts the citadel

[glacial warren]

The song never quite stops playing. It haunts Hornet across her journey, the ceaseless cacophony of religious noise.

[prime mantle]

the song technically haunts gms who is like the only person that matters so ig

[whole holly]

They should have called it silksilk

[prime mantle]

im silking it sherma

[whole holly]

Song manipulation is common theme but it is not utilized in game even though it is alluded

[prime mantle]

the next game they'll be accurate and just name it hollow knight because it'll focus on him

[prime mantle]

why does ts take soul instead of giving it....

needolin is so bad

[glacial warren]

Still there’s music everywhere you go in Pharloom. The bugs you can make sing with your Needolin power, the little tune that plays every time you open a new Bellvein Station, and the constant religious hymns sung by the Haunted Bugs.

[frosty gate]

Hornet speaks of the Hive and how it fell a long time ago.
She drops Lace the hardest line saying ever "Gods can fall"
She speaks about not looking deep enough in her own kingdom.
Fuck, this whole dialogue with Second Sen is very telling

"Some would argue that standing guard over a kingdom's corpse is a foolish task, empty of meaning. I wonder then, will you still hold true to your charge?"

Dialogue with Shakra:

"The one who trained me long ago... I never called her master. Whether she would be proud of what has become of me, I cannot say."

Like it had plenty of hints honestly. If you think it was a point between TK's arrival and the fall of Hallownest, its an insane timeline

[whole holly]

I don’t disagree with you

[prime mantle]

all of these are true... before hollow knight?

when i said prequel i didnt mean she crawled out when hallownest was kicking

i was legit actually thinking like, a few decades before the first game

in my metamorphosis x hollow knight fic ill write that'll be the timeline

hornet will find gregor samsa after being abducted before she escapes from pharloom with him and meets ghost

[whole holly]

Hornet is actively looking for another weaver in Pharloom and assumes that she is last of her kind even though there is one weaver in events of HK, so it doesn’t make sense as prequel

[prime mantle]

midwife says she hasn't been to deepnest in forever

she gets kidnapped to pharloom so its also like, she might as well

[whole holly]

Assuming she is last of her line or kind still doesn’t make sense

Herrah is alive too

[prime mantle]

herrah is effectively dead, and deepnest is crawling with weavers that are posessed and try to kill her, it's like traumaland i don't think she'd do a thorough inspection ill be honest

but yes these few disreperancies make sense in hindsight since silksong is very clearly obviously a sequel as we know

[glacial warren]

Also true. Hornet’s ‘home’ rapidly deteriorated into a festering cesspool once the funky orange juice started going around.

[whole holly]

That’s a lazy excuse to say Silksong makes sense as prequel without act 3

[frosty gate]

Weaver Queen????

The ending where Hornet becomes God and can't leave

[whole holly]

Weaver queen hornet and twisted child kinda prove it can only be sequel

[prime mantle]

if you go up you'll see i wrote act 3/end of act 2*

[whole holly]

This

It does not say that

[prime mantle]

i dont really see how it's lazy? hornet knowing the alive weaver already rests on a lot of assumptions. it's also such a nitpick that depends on this one npc tbh

[frosty gate]

You got me there, I did not read that, my sister is distracting me.
But I find the thought of Hornet doing all of Pharloom inbetween Hallownest's fall and TK's arrival unlikely,

She would not leave her post

[whole holly]

Oh yeah you corrected that later, I just didn’t see it

[prime mantle]

i actually found it likely and captivating on my first playthrough

i just think it works really well as a prequel, its so satisfying that way, to me at least

[whole holly]

I mean tbh hornet thinking she is last of her kind is more dependent on assumptions

[prime mantle]

well it wasn't exactly a choice

WQ actually doesn't happen in my fic the way it does in canon but i'll have to write it and get there to really portray my "silksong act 1 and 2 prequel au" vision

[whole holly]

Plus Infections existence callbacks from plasmium and comparisons from hornet makes no sense, Citadel would have been vulnerable to infection

[prime mantle]

? i suppose it would have been, but the kingdoms are likely rather very far apart

i doubt pale king would claim to be the last civilization or would be gassed so thoroughly if there was a bigger, better city next door

for a dream example, grimm can only come once he is "invited", and his whole deal is traveling. in this prequel au, radiance is still trapped in hollow knight

[lone folio]

In this prequel au how would hornets journey in pharloom end?

Like would she even bind GMS?

If she does she continues living in pharloom and TK doesn't have hornets help for THK and so radiance never gets defeated

[prime mantle]

the ending is completely different

and she leaves after to return to hallownest because her duty remains

[lone folio]

As weaver queen?

Or does she leave the kingdom entirely

[prime mantle]

no, not as weaver queen, but she does retain the powers she gained. she leaves the kingdom entirely, but a certain, influence lets say, of the kingdom and gms remains on her

[frosty gate]

She gives all the silk skills and everything that makes her useful to Lace in a forehead kiss and says "I'm gonna go fuck up my sibling's life, you go die on a ditch or something"

[prime mantle]

i really need to get my translations and begin writing this

having to translate all the concepts and terms in both games is such a pain but i need this excel file if i dont want to stumble every time i begin writing this fic and get caught up on a word

[lone folio]

So she goes back to hallownest before TK can go fight THK?

[prime mantle]

yeah exactly

[lone folio]

Okay wait so GMS would still be stuck in her cocoon unable to interfeer with hornets journey through pharloom. This could also mean that haunted bellhart isn't a thing since that's a recent event in the story.

[floral venture]

The haunting is an allegory for string theory

[lone folio]

Hell most of pharloom could still be functional depending on how far in the future the events of silksong take

[gentle aspen]

is this a big bang theory reference

[next ridge]

What are the known weapons in the HK universe. From what I know there are Nails, Needles, Pins as the general common weapons.
Nails seem to act as broadsword
Pins act as rapiers
And needles as spears/polearms

[lone folio]

Maces are a thing

[next ridge]

True

[lone folio]

False knight and small judges

[next ridge]

Are scissors considered weapons or tools

[lone folio]

Tools

They are just used for fighting because of the haunting

[gentle aspen]

I mean
nail lances exist

[lone folio]

There are also flails

[next ridge]

Do we have a screenshot I wanna see it

[floral venture]

https://tenor.com/view/sheldon-cooper-bazinga-tbbt-gif-23513555

[lone folio]

And spears

[gentle aspen]

Its what the mantis lords use

Truth be told we don’t really see needles either

[edgy nebula]

garmond wields a hornlance

[gentle aspen]

like hornet is the singular example for some reason

I do generally agree with your take thoigh

[prime mantle]

there's clubs too

i guess what hive knight is using is probably a needle

[lone folio]

Oh and firearms

Don't forget those

[edgy nebula]

he's using a stinger

[prime mantle]

hornet's is just like that bc vespa knew she could hook silk into it i guess

[edgy nebula]

or atleast i think thats what hes using

[blissful harbor]

wee see them in first sinner

[prime mantle]

i mean, clawline and silkspear exist so weavers prolly straight up used needles too. i guess first sinner and widow can't because they're locked up?

[blissful harbor]

needles

just built different

hornets is like a nail made into a needle

[prime mantle]

why didn't she just pick one up

[blissful harbor]

cause hallownest

she’s stupid

[gentle aspen]

man fuck team cherry bro

“Yeah lets make all the weavers dead”

Piss off

[blissful harbor]

TRUEEE

[prime mantle]

and they cant have kids for some reason. the kid thing is so weird

[blissful harbor]

all the missed potential

[lone folio]

Oh magical staffs are also a thing

Think like the grimmkin

[gentle aspen]

the kid thing is fine its just a weird retcon

it adds to the motherhood themes of the game

[prime mantle]

i guess the devouts just had really good dick so deepnest could spam infected little weavers? direct retcon

i was going thru that shit as the knight and died so many times to those istg

[gentle aspen]

honestly little weavers are infuriating because of this retcon and tc didn’t really address them at all but like

Whatever

[lone folio]

And Shakras and hu's rings are also weapons

Scythes are also in the universe

And some shields are also weapons

Like tiso's but we don't really know how it works

[prime mantle]

i legit do theorise about the devout-weaver compatibility thing. i think it could be why weavers of deepnest had an easier time having kids. they're both spiders. notably little weavers never use any silk abilities, so maybe while it was easier to have them as children they weren't "silked" and powerful (or likely, because)

hunter is an adult version of them imo (ill never stop riding the half weaver hunter train)

[prime mantle]

seth gives an example

a lot of creatures in hk also straight up use their bodies as weapons

[lone folio]

That doesn't count

[prime mantle]

weight, stinger, claws, teeth, acid/random product etc

[lone folio]

Well

I mean it kind of counts

As a weapon

But not in this context

Like they asked for weapons like swords and maces and not like teeth and nails

I honestly can't figure out any more weapons

[graceful grail]

Does this mean Nyleth has more than one Sister???

[lone folio]

Isn't that referring to hornet

You know like the whole "sister spider" and hornet being seen as short

[graceful grail]

She can listen to the old hearts so i think it implies Nyleth

[blissful harbor]

she’s referring to the old heart she’s tryna make

[edgy nebula]

she's referring to the heart she's making, she's probably just talking about nyleth/karmelita

[blissful harbor]

and i’m pretty sure her other dialogue was talking about nyleth and karmelita, not just specifically nyleth
she’s saying “listen to the other hearts and grow”

[graceful grail]

Its plural sisters

[blissful harbor]

yes nyleth and karm

[graceful grail]

If i had 2 daughters i would never tell one of them to listen to their sisterS because there is only one other

[blissful harbor]

what

[graceful grail]

It could be talking about greyroot, or white lady. But thats a long shot

Since they are all plants

[edgy nebula]

moss druid isnt a plant shes just wearing plants

nothing indicates the heart is a plant either

[graceful grail]

I diddnt say that

I am saying sister splinter nyleth greyroot and white lady are all plants

[muted lantern]

Moss heart when?

[fresh badger]

What are you even saying vro

Theres 3 entities, moss druid's thingie, nyleth, and karm

[next ridge]

Needles seem to be a very specific weapon choice. Probably only for weavers

[graceful grail]

Moss druid isnt their sister…

[next ridge]

Probably a lesser version or a version that takes a portion of design from hollow nests style

[graceful grail]

Moss druid is saying listen to your sisters to one of the old hearts, not karmaleta because she is a queen ant, this implies Nyleth who we know for certain has one sister. So maybe the plant bugs are realated

[edgy nebula]

shes trying to make a new old heart

[graceful grail]

That makes… No Sense

[edgy nebula]

shes saying to listen to your sisters because the old heart she's making would be the sister of the other old hearts in a way

[gentle aspen]

why is that?

[edgy nebula]

have you read her dialogue at all

got a smidge rude there, mb

[gentle aspen]

I’ve got the dialogue

Beat beat beat!
In coral, in shell...
And why not here?!
Beating, beating...
The world's rhythms...
In branches, in fields!

[gentle aspen]

Mmm. You can hear it, yes? Listen close. Weak, but precious. A pulse, a beat! Faint... Our very own...

[graceful grail]

She is saying they are gone

[muted lantern]

Well it's not really a old heart if it's new /j

[graceful grail]

Yes, you have revealed hornet has a heart

[gentle aspen]

no she’s not

[edgy nebula]

a young heart

[gentle aspen]

All of the Old Hearts are still there

[muted lantern]

When we getting middle aged heart

[blissful harbor]

she directly says it basically

Mmm! Mmm! This is them, the precious, promised fruits! Drop them in, there they go, and now at last we can begin! Ahhh! Ahhh-ohhhh! The smell is right! Like the others! But very young! Oh, voice of the woods! Oh, dance of the queen! Oh... oh! Beat harder, let us hear it! Oh! Ohhhhhhhh!

[gentle aspen]

I might as well leave if this happens again ngl

[muted lantern]

Midlife crisis heart

[graceful grail]

They are asleep and they need the melody of the deep.

[gentle aspen]

They’re not asleep dude

They’re weak

[edgy nebula]

they seem pretty awake to me

[muted lantern]

How much moss does moss druid eat daily?

[graceful grail]

Read snail diologue, also coral tower lore

[gentle aspen]

Yknow what

No

You get the dialogue

[edgy nebula]

what about coral tower lore gng

[gentle aspen]

because this is gonna be the third time today something like this happens

[blissful harbor]

the whole old hearts quest is that they have weakened and we need to fight them in their prime to enliven the heart
they aren’t like asleep or anything, time has just taken its toll on all the old hearts

[muted lantern]

I feel like moderating this server is a steady drain on the mods sanity

[gentle aspen]

and I refuse to get mad again because someone is confidently being incorrect and claiming the evidence that contradicts them supports them

[gentle aspen]

this isn’t even a moderation issue

Earlier today I had an argument with someone if the infection spreads physically

and then another about the shade lord existing prior to the events of the game

I aint doing this a third time

Fool me twice shame on me type shit

[spark valve]

Moss Druid isn’t saying the hearts are gone they’re asking why there isn’t a heart for the mosslands

And trying to make one

[muted lantern]

Evidence is meaningless in a fandom where people actively ignore the text when it doesn't suit their take.

[gentle aspen]

Yknow they probably left to get the supposed evidence that “the old hearts are sleeping and elegy of the deep wakes them up”

but I’m getting it first

[spark valve]

What is it I always say again…

[gentle aspen]

Chapel Maid: They're still out there, hidden away, much faded by the pale one's long dominion. You must make them stir.
Chapel Maid: We will teach you how, in the way befitting a Weaver, a sombre song to reach down into their memories and enliven them a final time.

is this what they’re referring to???

[muted lantern]

I wouldn't know

[gentle aspen]

Because this directly contradicts them

[blissful harbor]

shamans just know weaver spells

[gentle aspen]

ok?

how is that relevant

[spark valve]

They’re both using soup
Magic

[gentle aspen]

Soup?

[spark valve]

Yup autocorrect soup magic that’s what I meant

[gentle aspen]

why are you buying spells at the soup store tammo

[spark valve]

Lugoli is a snail

[gentle aspen]

True

[muted lantern]

Well, moss druid used soup magic

[gentle aspen]

Anyways, she says “enliven” and “make them stir” which is yknow, to evoke a memory or to rouse something to activity

[muted lantern]

So autocorrect isn't too far off, just lost track of the topic

[blazing venture]

Retired Snail Shaman

[muted lantern]

I like how autocorrect for me changed soup to soul

[spark valve]

This holy taste...
Shells to soak... and define...
Pharloom's flavour...
Pharloom's soul...

Preserved... remembered...
From you all...
For you all...
Essence... true essence...

lugoli is the avatar

[gentle aspen]

Essence? Soul????

Holy shit

[blazing venture]

Why does every npc and pharloom have these ass lyrics🗣️

[gentle aspen]

Lugoli’s THE PALE KING

[spark valve]

Soup magic may be the greatest of them all

[blazing venture]

None of them rhyme

[muted lantern]

It's weird that we don't see essence in game, thread memories are clearly an essence thing, maybe hornet just can't see essence since she lacks the dream nail?

[gentle aspen]

hornet can’t naturally manipulate or divine essence

[spark valve]

Different ways of perceiving dreams could just look different

[blazing venture]

Silk? Soul? Essence? Nightmare essence? Nah….soup dominates all

[gentle aspen]

and she doesn’t have the dream nail

plus like

[blazing venture]

Memories are probably different than dreams in hollow knight

[gentle aspen]

They’re not

memories are tied to dreams and essence

[spark valve]

seer constantly calls essence and dreams memories and vice versa

[muted lantern]

I do like that entering the old hearts you start in a weaver structure and then it morphs into the style of the hearts lands, showing we are passing from hornets mind to the heart bearer

[blazing venture]

Fair but in Hollow Knight we always get teleported to these cloudy places with platforms, but in silksong its an exact replica of the place

[blazing venture]

Yeah

[sinful nimbus]

not always

[gentle aspen]

the method is different to enter them

[sinful nimbus]

Birthplace and Godhome memory aren't cloudy floating platforms

[spark valve]

abyss memory is a dream

[gentle aspen]

and verdania has some differences ie the Pale Stag existing

[spark valve]

that too land of storms and tuner memory

[gentle aspen]

Memories are generally exact replicas

[edgy nebula]

moss druid thinks theyre the main character

trying to ascend from street tier

[gentle aspen]

honestly though there might be one example of a non exact replica with the pale stag

[muted lantern]

Grey prince zote is the only truly accurate dream

[spark valve]

I mean they're doing a pretty good job of it

[spark valve]

lost verdania as a whole is super loose, pathways popping into existence when you collect the definitely-not-just-essence balls

[gentle aspen]

it’d be genuinely funny if through this method of getting high off the mossberries moss druid becomes way stronger than hornet

[gentle aspen]

those essence balls are like, rebuilding the memory though right

[spark valve]

memories are as accurate as the memory

[muted lantern]

Maybe the druid will be the final moss of the game?

[gentle aspen]

please

[spark valve]

probably but my point is ss memories are also contingent on the mental states of the host like any other dream

[muted lantern]

Absolute moss druid

[gentle aspen]

thats fair

that shit makes nyleth such a fucking bum icl

[edgy nebula]

nyleth’s always been a bum

[spark valve]

Nyleth might’ve been goated before taking root

[sinful nimbus]

she lost in the knotted grove

bum

[spark valve]

True

[muted lantern]

Greyroot could have been the old heart...

[gentle aspen]

honestly greyroot’s better the way they are rn

[muted lantern]

A greyroot boss fight would be sick tho

Maybe in godhome

[gentle aspen]

Okay but like if this is true it means she lost a 5v1

With one of those being a mirror match

thats goated behavior ngl

[steady tapir]

do y'all think there is an outside world

like with sun

n stuff

[gentle aspen]

We encounter the surface in Silksong at least

No sun visible

[steady tapir]

fr?

i thought that was just another cave

[edgy nebula]

it’s ambiguous

[tribal quartz]

is the father of the flame and its followers and the grimm troupe related in some way?

just wondering

[gentle aspen]

no

[tribal quartz]

ok

[tacit crown]

Question did they go one Architect at a time, or were all twelve achitects active at the same time?

also who even built them?

[muted lantern]

Probably the real bug that architect is based on. And I think they were activated sequentially as the previous ones failed but that's just my assumption.

[tacit crown]

sweet now I get to make some angsty art >=}

[next ridge]

There’s probably a sun but the constant sand storms block it

The surface is possible to traverse but it most likely is perilous the entire treck, from no food, no water, endless storms, windy, and probably dangerous Wild bugs

[edgy river]

No

I think it's infinite underground

[next ridge]

Bruh

[edgy river]

As long as there's world, there's more caves with more ceilings

It's an interesting world of true tbh

[next ridge]

From what we have seen the wastes outside of kingdoms is most likely open and kingdoms are probably built off of protected areas. Such as basins, underground, or walled off areas

Oh also dirtmouth is one of those examples

Same as crystal peaks

[edgy river]

The "surface" might be just a big cave

[next ridge]

I highly doubt that since we have active wind and storms

[edgy river]

We have no confirmation dirtmount is actually the highest point in the world

[next ridge]

We have no confirmation the world is one massive cave as well

[edgy river]

Yeah

[next ridge]

Its assumptions and opinions your is just different from mine and vice versa

[edgy river]

It's ambiguous, but I think dirtmount specifically would be weird being the surface. If Pharloom and Hallownests maps are to be believed, Pharloom is way higher up

Using abyss as the bottom of the world