sk-lore

[twin dragon]

The citadel has storerooms

[normal imp]

who would win in a fight the knight or hornet

[twin dragon]

The knight can solo hollow knight

[normal imp]

I mean yea they have taken on Chris, Susie and Ralsei all at once so that would make sense

[twin dragon]

oh

you mean the roaring knight

not THE knight

Roaring knight's getting fucked day one

[whole holly]

especially if hornet has everbloom

[normal imp]

I mean the roaring knight isnt void unless of course its in the same universe

[whole holly]

yeah but light based attacks still harm it i think

[normal imp]

huh cool

[whole holly]

this is why i think dreams and memories are connected, or at least the same

i hope Song/Needolin is required for DLC unique things for better themeing

Sound Wave attacking siren boss in DLC would be great to be honest

[low oracle]

There are masks (faces) and there are masks (masks). There are also instances of both being organic and none being organic. Just like there are shells (bodies/bones) and shells (shells/armor).
Weavers have masks and faces, both organic.
Hornet has a face.
All Vessels have faces.
Nosk can create organic masks (faces).
Mask maker creates artificial masks (masks) and faces.
Hegemol's armor is an organic shell.

[dreamy onyx]

Bug biology in this world is really weird

I think bugs like Pilgrims have bones considering the marrow

but most of the Pharloom wildlife seems to have shells or nothing at all

[dreamy onyx]

Also I agree with this, though I'm unsure of the Hegemol part

[twin dragon]

Hornet has a mask

[low oracle]

Nope.

[twin dragon]

It is mentioned during mask maker's dialogue

[low oracle]

I which way?

[twin dragon]

This also kind of implies masks can change and warp

[whole holly]

mask seems to be identity of a bug, it can be natural and artificial

[twin dragon]

Yeah

[whole holly]

but also faces

[twin dragon]

Mhm

[low oracle]

Your face is of pale shell, resembling the pale king/grand mother silk. What about this implies an artificial mask?

[whole holly]

masks are natural as well, in hornet's case it is natural

[low oracle]

In Hornet's case it is a face though. Weavers have a natural mask and a face, but Hornet doesn't.

[whole holly]

face is still a mask

[low oracle]

Yes, but not the same as a mask mask.

[whole holly]

Weaver's face can be taken off

[low oracle]

The upper mask of Weavers isn't their actual face.

[whole holly]

what is "Mask mask"

[whole holly]

all weavers and pharlids have it is organic

[low oracle]

A mask that you put on like a mask. Like the masks from the drreamers.

[whole holly]

some are born with mask that can be taken off, i don't think it is meant to be categorized, it is face and identity of a bug, whether natural or artificial

[low oracle]

Exactly, but from Widow we can see they have a face beneath (a second mask in HK terms). They don't enjoy having their mask removed, or even showing it for that matter. Since Widow put a rag (or dead flea arccording to some) over her face.

[whole holly]

can it be called a face though, they are wearing something over so it may be bugs innards that form facial area without exoskeleton

[low oracle]

I'm pretty sure that Widow couldn't survive in that state though. And First Sinner's head would also just leave her brain in the open when following that logic.

[twin dragon]

That's how one becomes "faceless"

[whole holly]

i am pretty sure mask is exoskeleton, which bugs exist and can survive without at least

[teal sinew]

do we know what all the furnaces in whiteward is for btw

and 3 big guys are guarding that area especially

[whole holly]

cremating pilgrim bodies

i want to argue that Palestag and Fayforn might be higher beings, because everything is still very vague, maybe we will get confirmation one day

[teal sinew]

but i thought dead bugs were extracted into gleamflies?

plus we find a room with mound of bodies next to the extrication machine

oh maybe they burn the leftover husk after the silk extraction

wonder where all that smoke is going

[low oracle]

The mist. The smoke is rich with silk, so the organ filters the waste from the silk, which is then caught as dregs in Greymoor. At least that could be a possible way.

[whole holly]

i have another theory

i think that Wraith is soul construct with a will, similar to Shade

Wraiths are made of Silk in Silksong but Howling Wraiths are also a Spell buy Shamans, they scream was well supposedly

[prime mantle]

dont their descriptions say they were created from someone's will

that someone being phantom

[whole holly]

Wraiths in Silksong yeah

[prime mantle]

yeah, i can see them being silk constructs

[whole holly]

""Anguished spectre of lingering thread. Despite its ephemeral nature, strong strikes can dispel the Wraith for a time. Not a bug but a projection of another's will in smog and Silk. "

[prime mantle]

i don't really know what else they'd be

[whole holly]

Howling Wraiths are Soul Constructs

[prime mantle]

that's a spell, i'm unsure if it counts as a creature

[whole holly]

"Blast foes with screaming SOUL.

The Wraiths requires sic SOUL to be conjured. Strike enemies to gather SOUL."

[whole holly]

i mean Soul is living force by itself, is it Soul Construct

[prime mantle]

maybe it could be the same way wisps are, though i'd say spells aren't alive. at least as independent beings

they could be alive in the same way your arm is alive

or maybe a glob of spit would be a better comparison

anyway i do agree wraiths are silk constructs. they're told to not be bugs but projection's of phantom's will, so maybe they're like marionettes

[stray fog]

I was thinking the same thing yesterday

Maybe wraiths are soul ghosts in general

[whole holly]

sure spells aren't living beings but there is no reason why wraith can be made from Soul, since Howling Wraiths are spell that summons wraiths

[whole holly]

Soul Spells imply that they summon Creatures made from Soul, their naming also implies that

[prime mantle]

? silk is soul

[stray fog]

Also, the mouth-things in the abyss shreik room are probably wraiths
This supports the idea that wraiths are a universal concept, and not unique to that one shaman

[prime mantle]

it's just a specific form of it. i'm not disagreeing with you here

[whole holly]

those look like Soul Vessels but Wraiths and Soul Vessels look similar after all

[prime mantle]

statues of wraiths are where you upgrade it too

it could be a type of spell, though phantom's wraiths are a lot more complex than the ones we cast in hollow knight

[whole holly]

i mean we pretty much established that creatures can be made from Essence, Soul, Void, only Soul/Silk constructs needs to be sustained continuously, Void generally feeds on Soul

[whole holly]

i wouldn't say complex as it is byproduct, it is excess silk and smog that form Wraiths through Phantoms Will, it is accomplished by Silk's structural integrity to form stuff as evidenced by wraiths

but Shaman Spells need to be worked on and there are ingredients source and casting process involved

[prime mantle]

hm, i do think it is pretty complex, the howling wraiths just torment whatever is above you by reaching up. phantom's wraiths can hang around idly, be controlled by them to chase hornet, suck her silk out, etc

it really feels like they are the projection of their will

not that the howling wraiths aren't, but that's more of a direct blast, rather than a doll to be strung along

you're right about how they're made though

[whole holly]

oh , you might mean more stable and self-sufficient, not necessarily complex, but yeah that's just Silk's additional properties

[stray fog]

Yeah Im conflicted between these 2 possibilities

[low oracle]

Sorry to interrupt, but do we have to draw connections for every single word used? Wraith is not something that should be unique enough to draw any conclusions. Brooding Mawlek and Broodmother aren't related either. Point is, we don't have to interpret everything based on the name. Another example would be Maggots and Muckmaggots.

[stray fog]

If the connections aren't strong enough, we'll realize that after theorizing either way
So, there is no harm in discussing it

[whole holly]

uhm, we are just connecting them because they are both literal Wraiths made with Silk/Soul, why do you have problem with that

[low oracle]

The thing is, nothing is opposing or confirming it. I'm just saying that we can't always draw these conclusions to be more than a headcanon most of the time.
I don't have a problem with that, I just wanted to point that out.

[stray fog]

Yeah this is borderline speculation
Ill admit that

[whole holly]

we aren't just drawing conclusions... we are discussing it...

[low oracle]

That is pretty much the same thing.

[stray fog]

I wouldn't be surprised if all of gets falsified in the future, but discussing these vague lore topics is very fun

[whole holly]

Soul can create constructs, we knew that... Wraiths and Sentient Life Constructs are just newer concept which we are incorporating in new lore knowledge

[low oracle]

Team Cherry does leave out things like the Hollow Knight's shade/shell form, so to at least have two endings follow up to Silksong (Act3, the others work for Act2, except Sealed Siblings of course).

[whole holly]

either way what is wrong with that?

[low oracle]

Nothing.

[whole holly]

why did you feel need to intervene

[whole holly]

it is okay to make new conclusions based on new evidence and knowledge presented, this is such a non-issue

[low oracle]

I just wanted to bring up the point, that Team Cherry uses the same words in different ways. I'm in no way opposing your personal interpretations. But for a discussion, all sides of the argument need to be seen. And we also shouldn't draw conclusions for extremely unspecific things named the same (not that this applies at the moment).

[whole holly]

besides discussing things that have similar name and are made from similar things is barely "drawing conclusions from extremely unspecific things"

[lucid knot]

The horse's very gait helps them pump their blood. I wonder if the process can be applied to how Beast Crest heals when Hornet stops her Needle against bug flesh.

[stray grove]

It’s magic

Crests are magic. Hornet’s silk is magic. She uses the magic silk to heal herself, even without Beast she’s able to drain Soul from enemies when striking them so the same principle likely applies it’s just life drain

[lapis creek]

this happens with humans too

thats how you avoid deep vein thrombosis

[stray grove]

Every mammal does it

Usually you don’t get a DVT from stasis alone

[lapis creek]

i dont have enough whale expertise to know if this is true or not

[stray grove]

Whales do actually, most of them even have a striated muscle sphincter at the level of the diaphragm to encourage venous return

[limpid summit]

What about horses

[stray grove]

What’s a horse

[edgy nebula]

scrapped silksong enemy

i think

[stray grove]

Mammals don’t exist in HK

[sinful nimbus]

Plumed rhino

[whole holly]

why is hornet "child born bound", does it mean Bound to service? or something else?

[limpid summit]

I would say so

She considers herself duty bound to preserve Hallownest

[edgy nebula]

what is the lore reason for why gay men in silksong make tornadoes (trobbio and clover dancers)

[lucid knot]

Yes. Silk is mentioned to be mystic, and Hornet can produce silk from Soul. However, I also think it's fun to weave a little bit of science. Was is such a leap of logic to play the "it's magic" card so quickly?

[fleet sparrow]

Im pretty sure the reason Herrah sacrificed herself for the Pale King was to have a child with him, as he is a pale being.
The weavers are only half God, while the Pale King is an extremely powerful God, making Hornet 75% pale being.
I think Herrah and the other weavers chose to sacrifice Herrah so that Hornet could go back to Pharloom and defeat Grand Mother Silk.

After Hornet was born, Herrah had a change of heart though.

I saw this theory on youtube, and imo it checks out

[limpid summit]

Love is a whirlwind

[limpid summit]

The Weavers also have trouble having kids though

So Herrah also wanted to have the chance to have an actual daughter

The fact that Hornet might have been powerful enough to defeat GMS was just a nice bonus

[twilit crest]

This writing is fire

[twilit crest]

Bound to a prophecy I guess

[whole holly]

That’s interesting insight thanks

[gentle aspen]

because like
you cannot apply science here
it’s a crest she magically obtains that allows her to directly convert her previous soul drain abilities to life drain

[graceful grail]

For beast is she directly taking the soul from the bug and instantly converting it to silk and binding her shell together at once??

And is binding literally tieing her shell together??

Oh, binding with beast must make hornet drain more soul out of her opponent

[gentle aspen]

She’s just stealing their life

[twilit crest]

This reminds me of the argument that popped off in here the other day about whether silk is physical or magical

Obviously it’s both

[edgy nebula]

https://tenor.com/view/fire-writing-gif-2088247993237804628

[livid haven]

Don't think Trobbios sexuality is specified anywhere in the game.

[twilit crest]

Bros gaydar needs a tuneup

[white delta]

hi

[edgy nebula]

hello mimickedU

[bright python]

HELP

[warped plank]

Is it healthy for First Sinner's mask to be a fruit punch bowl?
Also, would we theoretically be able to see under a weaver's mask by looking in the fruit punch bowl?

[twilit crest]

Something i just noticed

Is pharloom powered solely by steam/locomotion?

[tacit crown]

technically? most of pharloom is underdeveloped, Greymoor is powered by wind, the Citadel is Coal/heat into steam powered & manual labor (Loam). it seems like a majority of the power is transfered using steam, with the cogwork core being locomotion from the steam.

[tawdry flare]

silksong is... steampunkslop?

[bright python]

makes sense

[sinful nimbus]

So lame

It should've been belle epoqueslop 💔

[foggy fractal]

whats epoque

[frosty gate]

Hollow Knight Cyberpunk when

[sinful nimbus]

French period where my goat e33 draws inspiration from ❤️‍🩹

[foggy fractal]

wait i missed a word

who's belle???

[sinful nimbus]

belle beast

[foggy fractal]

😨

[strange hazel]

there!

[sinful nimbus]

GMS could've only uplifted the female ones

[stray grove]

They are explicitly stated to have all been female and GMS altered them on a genetic level anyway so whether she specifically only elevated Pharlids who were already female or they all became female as a result of being elevated isn’t really an important consideration

[strange hazel]

oh

[twin dragon]

What if grand mother silk is menderbug in disguise

It makes sense

[tawdry flare]

good for her

[dreamy onyx]

Maybe Pharlids are female but Pharlids Divers are male

[graceful grail]

Weavers are just GMS upside down 🙃

[gentle aspen]

?

[dreamy onyx]

explanation as to how Pharlids didn't go exist but to why Weavers don't seem to have kids

[gentle aspen]

what

[graceful grail]

I think team cherry did a great job taking 3 completely unique looking creatures and making a mother that makes sense visually for all of them.

[vagrant spade]

Does anyone understand what vesticrests actually are in lore, like ik their just there to expand your toolset but if crests are from dead bugs where do vesticrests come from

[tacit crown]

they are 'a deeper understanding' of hornet's true nature which, from what is shown is the capacity to hold powerful objects such as tools &/or Charms or whatever.

so... basically my interpretation they are a more powerful part of hornet's true crest (technically the hunter's crest) but like imagine all the crest hornet has absorbed with the venticrest being a centerpoint of her divinty/'grown beyond the capacities of a mortal bug'

[vagrant spade]

that made sense a lot actually

[twilit crest]

This writing is fire

[graceful grail]

Is there a definitive answer on why Phantom is playing the organ?

[marble oasis]

pharlid divers got uplifted as well

[dreamy onyx]

its like half a crack theory

[marble oasis]

fuck all else to do in there

[dreamy onyx]

basically pharlid divers were male and thats how pharlids remaiend as a species

[marble oasis]

and it expels wind

[dreamy onyx]

but gms only uplifted non-divers so they couldnt have male weavers or smth

[unreal estuary]

Not completely, but we can infer that Phantom playing the organ both creates the Mist and pumps refuse and pollution out of the Citadel and into nearby Bilewater, which gave it its Bileous nature. The reason Phantom is there is because she was rejected by GMS and left to die elsewhere

[marble oasis]

no she uplifted divers too

[graceful grail]

Did GMS not like phantom because phantom diddnt stay a child?? Like when she made Lace??

[dire lynx]

We don't know

[unreal estuary]

It's never fully explained, my theory is just that she largely forgot about Phantom when she made Lace and devoted more of her energy and Silk into keeping her alive, and Phantom was mostly ignored by everyone other than Lace herself, who saw the life she could lead if her mother forgot about her and left her to break like she did Phantom

[marble oasis]

it makes very little sense for gms to have been the one to condemn phantom to the organ

[unreal estuary]

I never said GMS condemned her there, just that she rejected Phantom

By all likelyhood Phantom herself was the one to relocate, or it was the Weavers/Conductors

we really don't know

[graceful grail]

Did phantom feed lace any ideas that GMS would move on from lace to?? Like she did with the rest of her children??

[dire lynx]

Where is this shown/stated?

[marble oasis]

divers are in the first sinner memory along with the normal pharlids

[marble oasis]

she was likely forced there by the conductors

[unreal estuary]

Again, we really can't say, but in my head Lace seeing Phantom in her current state was what caused Lace to begin to hate her mother. In the needolin secret dialogue in the Exhaust Organ Lace asks Phantom why GMS "Spun them to break", so I don't think it was something Phantom necessarily said but again we can't be sure

[graceful grail]

Im just thinking why Lace wants to prove herself in the lace 2 fight. Like she dosent want GMS to replace her.

To bad she diddnt know how much GMS really loved her after all. Even enough to give her all after she straight up betrayed her.

[unreal estuary]

Oh yeah 100%. I think Lace is afraid that she'll be replaced by Hornet if GMS gets her hands on Hornet, because after seeing Phantom's deterioration she stopped being able to trust GMS, and feels ignored and underappreciated. I just don't know if Phantom was specifically the one to give her those ideas or not

[graceful grail]

Lace dosent really have anyone else to talk to.

Also, it feels like a Sans/Papyrus situation where we KILL their sibling and it is never brought up by the other.

[dire lynx]

Maybe I'm blind, but I didn't see any when I played the game, and I just watched someone else go through the memory and didn't see any then either

[graceful grail]

Imagine someone kills the only other person in the world you can talk to, and you just don’t care for some reason.

Does lace even know that hornet kill phantom???

[marble oasis]

.

@dire lynx they’re always on the ceiling so they’re harder to see

i know for a fact they’re in there, there’s a screenshot of it in this channel somewhere

[edgy nebula]

i saw someone bring up the idea that khann purposefully sealed off his water, thoughts?

it’s a pretty cool theory

[spark valve]

khann would probably see that as a pretty cowardly choice

"All to bow...
All lost to fear...
Remember our strength...
Remember our rule...
Now none to resist... But us...
Alone... against the pale light..."

also it would proooobably say something like that here if it were the case

[edgy nebula]

remember our rule and remember our strength fits the bill, but the others definitely not

id say it’s a fair theory to explain why khann and all his soldiers were like that

[spark valve]

why would it be remember our rule and remember our strength if those aren't actually lost

[edgy nebula]

but maybe it’s just for hype moments and aura

[spark valve]

that doesn't really need explanation does it

they were drying up so they dried up there why would they dry up elsewhere

[marble oasis]

i was there for this convo

i don’t disagree

“till time.. life anew” does seem to imply they think that there will be another golden age of crust somehow

and if someone else took their water that would be no guarantee

[spark valve]

the watcher might but that isn't necessarily an accurate hope

waiting for the water to come back doesn't necessarily mean it will actually come back

it would be super out of character for the karaka to decide to avoid a fight by just taking a nap

[marble oasis]

“that being silk can haunt minds now, huh? i better keep my ass in this tower or i’m finished ‼️”

[edgy nebula]

khann's fucked when he finds out silk is in the water supply

[spark valve]

Karak water might’ve been good actually depending on where it was flowing in from

If it was flowing down from somewhere above the citadel they’d be fine

[edgy nebula]

the top of the tower was considered water's source so i dont think it's insane to say itd probably come from mt. fay

maybe some sealed off pocket of water slightly below fay but above karak or something

[marble oasis]

mt fay actually has no flowing water at all

yet plenty of erosion visible

this and more will be expounded upon in zordoc number 3

[twilit crest]

Do we know the order of which the church conquered the other kingdoms?

[edgy nebula]

the citadel never really conquered any of them, except maybe karak but that's widely argued

[twilit crest]

Ykwim

[marble oasis]

the order in which they fell?

not really

i would guess everything sort of started getting haunted at once

shellwood was the only one who the citadel really impacted

[twilit crest]

Are we led to believe bilewater is perhaps one of the newer changes geopolitically speaking?

[marble oasis]

they were going to go after verdania but then the clover boy sold his shell

[limpid summit]

Yes

[marble oasis]

and that was yonks ago in weaver era

[limpid summit]

Well what is new

Okay I think the order is

[twilit crest]

Yes let’s hear it

[marble oasis]

exhaust organ is conductor era

[twilit crest]

Cause I was wondering

[limpid summit]

This is my guess

No wxhaust organ gotta be weaver era

Cause its services would still have needed to be used

The silk was coming down

[twilit crest]

But exhaust organ wouldn’t turn bilewater immediately

[limpid summit]

Bilewater is either weaver or conductor era

[twilit crest]

It probably underwent a gradual shift

[limpid summit]

If we assume the Weavers co opted Karak for steam power they might have been earliest

[marble oasis]

it’s gilded architecture

[limpid summit]

It was probably blinged out

[edgy nebula]

karak was either the first kingdom to fall or probably around the middle, depending on if you think the conductors or the weavers did it

[limpid summit]

But this seems like stone

[twilit crest]

Weaver-led conductor takeover

Is my best guess

[limpid summit]

Karak Bilewater Verdania Shellwood FarFields

What are we missing

[twilit crest]

Before all the weavers died out, but after some of them escaped

[limpid summit]

I can explain my choices

[twilit crest]

Go for it

[marble oasis]

the platform yes the back no

it’s tarnished metal

[marble oasis]

this is your order?

[limpid summit]

The stone citadel still used metal

[twilit crest]

Did the forge daughters join during or after the weavers

[limpid summit]

All the pipes are metal

[limpid summit]

Shrug

I forget if FD mentions the Weavers

[marble oasis]

don’t think so

[limpid summit]

But since the diving bell was Weaver era or even GMS era they might have been Weaver era

Bell motifs

[marble oasis]

People don’t like when you say diving bell was weaver era around here

[limpid summit]

Bro what 😭

Who are the Sisters dude

“Sisters sisters so long gone” are Weavers

[twilit crest]

Mayhaps

Sister splinter could be related to nyleth

[limpid summit]

Eh

I think the splinters are their own thing

“Other other sleeping deep” is probably Nyleth

[marble oasis]

where the fuck is this screenshot

[limpid summit]

The Shellwood page

[limpid summit]

Scratch this I wasn’t thinking

Shellwood second I guess it depends on when you consider it fallen

IMO Nyleth fell asleep during the Weaver era, the Weavers co opted Shellwood and built the shrine

Then the Conductors sent the Choir to dismantle the shrine and Seth killed anyone who tried

[twilit crest]

Is shellwood even technically a society. I thought it’s more or less just whatever word they have for the Forest

[marble oasis]

can you change it

[marble oasis]

they actively bargained with nyleth for it

[marble oasis]

why is she sister splinter anyway

[limpid summit]

Changing the wiki page is like trying to reach for the grapes

Or drink the water

[marble oasis]

how so

[limpid summit]

Anyway

You’re right

About the bargaining

Is that the snail dialogue

[marble oasis]

think so

[limpid summit]

They could have just acknowledged her presence while asleep though

[marble oasis]

no they made an accord with her

reluctantly too

so nyleth had the upper hand in that negotiation

[limpid summit]

Accord can be informal

It’s just them acknowledging her dominion

[marble oasis]

the reluctant bit is the kicker

if she wasn’t an active participant they could have just come in and taken it all

[limpid summit]

Fair

Pale King

So maybe she fell asleep during Weaver times

If the harp tablet is addressed to the bound Weaver who the hell wrote it

Wouldn’t they all have been entombing themselves

Or is that just something some Weavers did earlier

[edgy nebula]

thought this said weaver bound to hell for a second

[limpid summit]

Not wrong

[edgy nebula]

"Sister, spider, husk bound to hell."

[marble oasis]

nah

[limpid summit]

How EVERY Pharloom weaver will be posted up in hell for running the Citadel

[marble oasis]

at the very least it seems keelal was one of the sooner weavers to husk herself

they probably husked themselves whenever their silk ran out which would have been at different times

[edgy nebula]

also is this till on the wiki? i thought it was removed

[limpid summit]

It’s not on the Splinter page

It’s up in Shellwood

Ts gotta be someone’s agenda

[limpid summit]

Makes sense

[spark valve]

as a lot of misinfo on it is

[limpid summit]

Tammo this makes sense right

[spark valve]

what

[limpid summit]

Would the Weavers have been known as a sisterhood

[spark valve]

yes

old penitent also calls them sisters

[limpid summit]

“Sisters sisters so long gone” referring to Weavers (consistent with the rest of Splinter’s NDD) rather than other splinter rulers

Holy shit thank you

[spark valve]

I mean it wouldn't be about other splinters

[limpid summit]

I knew someone else did

[spark valve]

the other thing it could maybe make sense to be about is nyleth but nyleth isn't one of many who were present in pharloom so that doesn't make a lot of sense, it's just that nyleth was or would have apparently stopped the splinters from being a problem

Her presence would once have maintained the wood's fragile order, allowing the safe passage of bugs across its branches.
the splinters and their attacks being against the order apparently

[limpid summit]

Nyleth is probably the “other” anyway

[spark valve]

probably

[limpid summit]

So is Greyroot relatively new

Like Conductor era

That would still make her pretty old

[spark valve]

she seems to have been doing her thing for a while

I'm not sure she'd constitute the kind of threat the nyleth entry says she would prevent

[edgy nebula]

her hut and the chapel are built upon the dead bodies of many pilgrims

but we dont really get a timeframe

[spark valve]

greyroot isn't like

going out and hunting pilgrims

almost nobody is making it through shellwood with the splinters roaming free greyroot just doesn't have the same impact on the population

[marble oasis]

the pilgrims are also seeking greyroot out tbf

[spark valve]

yeah

[marble oasis]

that is their “passage”

[spark valve]

one pilgrim every couple years wandering off and getting killed is very different from the splinters

Imposing old insect nesting in the heights of Shellwood. Her command of twig and branch ensured no pilgrim ever survived her territory.

even if we take this as being a bit hyperbolic you get the idea

[marble oasis]

FACT: Sister Splinter prevented pilgrims from entering her territory so she could keep her 0% survival rate

It’s like reverse statpadding

[spark valve]

This one lived long and fed much. The wood will be much safer for their slaying.

she's not just in it for the love of the game

[marble oasis]

She was a vegetarian

Hence why the wood is safe now

[spark valve]

true

[marble oasis]

This is turning into one of those jojo propaganda videos

Sister splinter was a kindly old witch who helped make the dangerous forest of shellwood safe for the passage of pilgrims

She loved to laugh and play with her children

[limpid summit]

Sister splinter lowkey speedblitzes Khann 😭

Faster control of her element as well

[limpid summit]

Then the evil Hornet appeared

Many splinters had no choice but to hide from her fury only jumping out as a last resort

[marble oasis]

Hornet had been lied to by the wicked nyleth and led to believe sister splinter was a monster just because of her appearance

With her dying breath sister splinter forgave her though and Hornet realised the error of her ways, making her seek out and kill nyleth to atone

She was still so ashamed she jumped into the Void to kill herself and finally put everything to rest

[limpid summit]

What do you think of this heartwarming story of rulership

Leave your thoughts in the comments

[stray grove]

Me whenI lie

[edgy nebula]

he's probably right

but khann can hop like 80 feet into the air so he can just jump on her like a goomba

[spark valve]

can he if she's hanging from the ceiling

I don't think so

[marble oasis]

nah khann has so much more startup lag on his coral than her vines

plus grass beats water everyone knows this

[edgy nebula]

khann's balancing pmo

his spikes should destroy any tools

[limpid summit]

Bro is a fraud

[marble oasis]

would probably make the fight marginally harder

[muted lantern]

He needs to have attacks that he uses while the coral spikes are up, the spikes should be used to zone you not damage you

[edgy nebula]

this would be nice

give him a conchcutter projectile trust

[marble oasis]

TRUE

[edgy nebula]

and make it bounce off of his spikes itd be so cool

[marble oasis]

no that would be too driznarga

[muted lantern]

They should give khann a gunn

[craggy smelt]

the knife is a crab's traditional weapon of choice

[edgy nebula]

https://tenor.com/view/crab-knife-fight-gif-7305809

[craggy smelt]

all but untouchable

[muted lantern]

Consider, conchcutter minigun

[marble oasis]

i need you to give khann the most powerful coral projectile you have
no, that’s too powerful

[craggy smelt]

karak gor heavy

[warped plank]

Why do weavers only use 6/8 of their limbs most of the time?

[marble oasis]

do we actually see weavers with 8 limbs?

normally it’s 4 legs and no arms

Widow only shows 2 arms

Herrah has 8 limbs but that’s in her weird appearance

[edgy nebula]

a few of first sinner's sprites

[craggy smelt]

sometimes it almost seems like they collapse sets of limbs together

like general grievous

you see one skittering around on four legs, it's actually 8, just with pairs stuck together

[marble oasis]

she pulls her claws out of her shoulders no?

[edgy nebula]

heres the sprite

[marble oasis]

hm

[edgy nebula]

i think theyre just inconsistent ngl

[marble oasis]

so the shoulders are nothing

they just always have their arms by their sides

[edgy nebula]

pharlids are arachnids anyways

[edgy nebula]

probbaly yeah

[muted lantern]

it is odd that first sinners dress is the closest thing to humanoid clothing that appears in the entire series, probably bc gms is such a humanoid design?

[stray fog]

White palace clothing is also kinda humanoid

Not as much as a skirt though

[gilded crest]

NO WAY

THEORY

HEAT ME OUT Y’ALL

ELDER HU

WAS SHAKRA’S MENTOR

https://tenor.com/view/patrick-star-spongebob-squarepants-wow-mindblown-gif-13169052

[muted lantern]

uhhh.... you do know we meet shakras mentor right?

[marble oasis]

wow…

[muted lantern]

or is this a bit

[stray fog]

I think he was a member of the same tribe, but shakra's mentor is her foster mother

[gilded crest]

SHUT UP YOURE RUINING THE THEORY-

[gilded crest]

oooo

[muted lantern]

Anyone who smokes zaza is a higher being

[marble oasis]

can someone kill this white gorilla

[gilded crest]

SND HES DOING THIS TO GET KID’S IMAGINATIOJ

[muted lantern]

this is probably a little too shitposty for this chat just so you know.

[stray fog]

I mean, you're literally hornet, so you would know what's true

[gilded crest]

SO HE CNA GAIN

[gilded crest]

yeah

[gilded crest]

i have to delete this

cuz team cherry can’t find out about this

[trail wagon]

how long has it been since grandmother silk's takeover of pharloom

[edgy nebula]

pretty long while

[muted lantern]

We arent told, probably been a while tho

like at least a year or so, but it was a slow creeping process like the infection.

so from when it started to when shes fully in control is debatable

[trail wagon]

like everyone is new to the curse, but all the automatons are powered by silk butterflie

[dire lynx]

relativley recent, the chapel maid speaks of how the roads are only now turning wild and dangerous due to the haunting

"Welcome then, fierce traveller, to Pharloom! Our holy yet haunted land.
Before you depart, permit an old bug a brief warning. Best keep that weapon drawn.
Our kingdom is gripped by a curse. Its paths grow wild and dangerous, and though some still attempt the climb to the Citadel at its crest, none return to speak of what they see."

[hidden crater]

What no dlc does to a mf

[cunning carbon]

I find it funny that first sinners crime was believing in evolution

And with the details of her imprisonment,it was the weavers that imprisoned her after they put GMS to sleep. They turned around and betrayed first sinner because "people gotta believe were holy, can't let you be yappin"

[dreamy onyx]

a while

the haunting is recent, but GMS arrived aaaaaaaaaaaaages ago

you have the old hearts, then GMS, then the weavers, then the conductors, then the fall of the citadel, then the haunting

and remember that the weavers fleeing was likely around the time Hallownest was still around, which means a really really long time ago

[dire lynx]

<@&283547423706447872>

https://tenor.com/view/mods-gif-7302064673369468312

[topaz frost]

He went here aswell?

[dire lynx]

right there @topaz frost

[topaz frost]

Ik, I can see

I'm just surprised no mods have deleted them or at least timed the account out

[dire lynx]

great mod shortage, they should hire me

[marble oasis]

why do you say fall of the citadel then the haunting

[topaz frost]

Someone deleted it now

[dreamy onyx]

I think it's implied that the Citadel went silent

[topaz frost]

Imma guess ruttie

[dreamy onyx]

And then the Haunting brought the song back

[cunning carbon]

Why would you want that? Do you desire a receding hairline?

[dire lynx]

so i can slap the spammers

this server is so full of them

[topaz frost]

Scammers

[dire lynx]

the scam is the same one every time

spammed

[dreamy onyx]

I suppose it's unclear whether the silence is the Haunting or not though

[topaz frost]

Yea, fair

[whole holly]

is there unique interaction with Spider Strings needolin anywhere?

[dire lynx]

no, it does nothing and is worthless

[cunning carbon]

Dreamnail if it was ass

Assnail

[dreamy onyx]

I was mistaken, the Citadel fell silent due to the Haunting

It's just happened that the bugs didn't awakened until Hornet showed up

[marble oasis]

it can never go silent again, that’s the point of the core

at least, gms didn’t wake up because they stopped singing

[dreamy onyx]

I meant silent like

Most of the choirbugs are dead or haunted

The core is still working as usual I assume

[marble oasis]

yeah, i think they stopped singing because they got haunted

[whole holly]

at least Dream Wielder made Dream Nail better...

[trail wagon]

why is the last judge fittied with as much an explosive charges as a thermonuclear warhead 😭

[robust wagon]

To stop sinners from entering the holy citadel

[gleaming basin]

spiritofstar

Server Avatar

[vivid kernel]

my jaw dropped at this beauty, excellent pfp choice

[whole holly]

thanks

i think about Palestag and their Needolin dialogue all the time, i wonder what it means:

May echoes gather...
Lonely specks, adrift...
Forgotten or lost...
Winding ways meet again...
What is remembered...
Facets many, shining apart...

[whole holly]

i like your pfp as well

[vivid kernel]

:)

[whole holly]

it would be great if hornet had this cloak...

[vivid kernel]

unfortunate that I don't see any artist signature on the pic, would make it significantly easier to search for the author

[whole holly]

i have pinterest link : https://www.pinterest.com/pin/636977941083273183/

[vivid kernel]

dunno, could be a repost

@whole holly hey I think I have the source, it doesn't have those side panels so you could use it instead for a cleaner look
https://coloso.co.kr/portfolio/2858
image link: https://cdn.day1company.io/prod/creator-portfolio/image/2025-07/c40119478161bced6f4267bf435869d8-ddum (10).jpg

certainly looks like this guy's work
https://coloso.co.kr/creator/illustration-mmong/portfolios

[pale narwhal]

that can't be true, GMS has been sending out haunted citadel bugs for years to recapture weavers and their descendants

[whole holly]

Absolute Lurien

on serious note what do we think Palestag's needolin dialogue means

May echoes gather...
Lonely specks, adrift...
Forgotten or lost...
Winding ways meet again...
What is remembered...
Facets many, shining apart...

are they aware they are in a memory?

[limpid summit]

I genuinely have no clue

Hornet wonders if it really exists as she saw it

I almost took that to mean it existed but may have just been albino and Green Prince’s experience with pale beings turned it pale in his fading memory

So as a memory construct it’s just his thoughts coalescing

[whole holly]

“Echoes” suggest remnants of past sounds or thoughts that linger. “Gather” implies they’re being collected again, hinting at synthesis.

“Specks” evokes tiny, seemingly insignificant units: people, ideas, or moments lost in a vast space. in Silksong context it may be memory orbs

[marble oasis]

I believe so

[whole holly]

forgotten or lost, means that: This reinforces the sense of abandonment; things once known now fade.

[marble oasis]

But it’s dead, so it doesn’t have full awareness like White Lady

[whole holly]

Life’s trajectories rarely run straight; they twist, diverge, then intersect—suggesting renewal or inevitable convergence. with their line Winding ways meet again

Thus the needolin dialogue suggests a process:
Dispersion – Ideas/experiences scatter and are lost with time
Decay – Some are forgotten, others drift.(Lost memories)
Resonance – Echoes (reminders, triggers) cause them to regroup.
Synthesis – The gathered pieces form a complex, radiant whole.

Palestag wants to be remembered like Radiance

pale stags needolin dialogue suggest my theory

i think i may have enough evidence after all, Palestag's existence may be doubted because he wasn't remembered, being forgotten is only death that matters for Dream Beings in World of hollow knight

Mister Mushroom says one can visit the past but then memories become contradictory, which is deep when you think about it

but it says lot about Endings as well

[whole holly]

what is your overall conclusion to theory i have posted?

[frosty gate]

What's the topic today?

[stray fog]

Pale stag needolin dialogue

This conversation is interesting, but I don't understand this dialogue 🙏

[frosty gate]

Eeh let me check it, I don't remember nothing about it

Jesse what the fuck are you talking about

[stray fog]

The pale stag is inspired by mr mushroom

This is genuinely so similar to the bullshit that john shroom spits

[whole holly]

do you struggle to find the meaning? i found it just as vague as Mister Mushroom

[stray fog]

The only thing I understand is that its talking about memories

Idk what its trying to convey though

[frosty gate]

At the very least Mr Mushroom is cryptic without meaning

This thing is saying something, I just don't get it

[whole holly]

i discussed this, read it to full thread and it may offer insight

[frosty gate]

I think saying its a Pale Being as in *Higher * Pale Being is a stretch

[whole holly]

it is possible, it may be forgotten one those memories distorted

[stray fog]

You cooked 🔥

[whole holly]

they kind of are now, even some characters who are remembered turn into Spirits as well see it in Hallownest, Palestag is not remember and their true form can't be recollected, it may be similar to what radiance almost experienced, but despite everything it can happen to Physical Beings as well

[whole holly]

it may not be higher being, but it was unique and significant creature at least to verdania, who was not remembered

[whole holly]

i think it might be most effort i have ever put into theory

[frosty gate]

I can agree with that although I find it more fun to think that Gay Prince is absolutely delusional

[whole holly]

to put this into words for those who don't want to read the thread : forgotten dreams and lost memories are pretty much analogous and accessing/recollecting them can become difficult, as in Lost Verdania and Forgotten Radiance context, although Radiance managed to survive, but Radiance statue could have played a part of preserving her memory
maybe Fading into memory not exclusively for Dream Beings... possibly for Unn was well, her power waned when mosskin were infected, even though she was calling out to mosskin, they couldn't remember her voice or were too blinded by Radiance's Light
she as physical being is alive but she can't be attuned, her light is forgotten and so on, while Palestag’s memory is distorted and no one knows if Palestag Existed as it was witnessed it memory and his Needolin Dialogue suggests that
“May echoes gather…
Lonely specks, adrift…
Forgotten or lost…
Winding ways meet again…
What is remembered…
Facets many, shining apart…
”

[spark lynx]

guys I just found smth

[whole holly]

i mean he seems to have fading memories, which seer talks about, he can be forgetful and delusional at once

[spark lynx]

did anyone else saw the rosaries on the coloseum trials?

[stray fog]

Send a screenshot

[spark lynx]

tell me those doesnt look like rosaries

they look alot like the ss one

[stray fog]

They're pins

[marble oasis]

they don’t look like rosaries

[spark lynx]

for me it does ngl

yea lemme buy the red pins rn

[stray fog]

Are those pins used to mark your participation in the trial?

[stray fog]

Not the map pins

These are just unrelated pins

[spark lynx]

whbich one?

[stray fog]

📌 Like this

[spark lynx]

oh k

[cosmic forge]

i think they're to mark any participation in the trial

[stray fog]

The ones which look like rosaries

[spark lynx]

no they arent

(if u mean the knight)

it might be used to mark people who beated the trials or smth

[stray fog]

No the red pins which you said looked like rosaries

[stray fog]

Could be

[spark lynx]

but they existed b4 you beated it

I can try to beat the last trial and see if another pin appear

[cosmic forge]

well why do we get our head put on the board?

[spark lynx]

I think hes talking abt the rosaries, and the head might show who beated it last time idk

[stray fog]

I think the head shows a winner

Or the winner

[spark lynx]

yea probably

and so does the "pin" near it

indicating someone beat it and it was known for using that weapon

it can indicate how the winner looks like

because you can see both pins and a fabric on every trial

[frosty gate]

Yeah I think he remembers thing in a more dramatic way than it truly is. Palestag might aswell not even be really pale

[spark lynx]

but I think that'd be hk discussion

[frosty gate]

There'd be no reason for these to be rosaries

[spark lynx]

ik it just looks like it

but looking again they look more like pins as said

[whole holly]

i think Palestag's Needolin dialogue is about how scattered, forgotten fragments, whether dreams, memories, or ideas can reconvene into a complex, multi‑faceted whole. and Hunter's Journal Palestag entry confirms it whether or not Palestag was Pale Being or even if it existed

[stray fog]

What does the journal say?

[whole holly]

Fabled first Cloverstag of Verdania's wilds. Commands the grass and leaves to aid its attack.

Myth made real in memory. The creature seemed completely at one with the flora around it. Did it ever truly exist as I have seen it?

[pale narwhal]

they're literally just red

[frosty gate]

You think these could be the thoughts GP has about the memory or just the Palestag thinking this for some reason

[whole holly]

now that i think about it, it might be GP's perspective, but question is why is it so vague, it is clear he is trying to recollect lost memories, maybe same thing applies to remembering forgotten dreams

[frosty gate]

You know what I think? I'm gonna go crazy on this

I've never had this perspective about it

[whole holly]

it does make sense for vague memory to have vague needolin

[frosty gate]

What if the Palestag is the original Old Heart?

[whole holly]

interesting thing is that there is already Conjoined Heart and they had relation to Palestag

[stray fog]

And the green princes became the heart after killing it?

[frosty gate]

Exactly

The did become the rulers of Verdania after it

[whole holly]

maybe that's why it was a cycle

[frosty gate]

It might've not been Pale, that's what I'm not conviced about

But the fact that it was real and connected to the plants is not farfetched

We have Nyleth right there

[whole holly]

it was first Cloverstag, but if it created the species, why is it shocking that is was higher being, you don't think it was above all others because it seems primitive?

[marble oasis]

palestag gives off soul particles which is a weird detail to include unless he actually witnessed a pale being

[frosty gate]

I don't think it created the species

[frosty gate]

He can't even properly remember the face of the love of his life

I cannot trust this guy

[marble oasis]

boyfriend is whatever

that big fucking stag you killed one time is far more worth committing to memory

[stray fog]

Clearly
Cool pale critter > husband /j

[frosty gate]

He literally left his kingdom to die and dedicated his whole life to being a sad sock about the fact he lost his lover

Literally his whole arc makes it very clear his whole life revolved around his boyfriend

[whole holly]

i mean everything suggests we don't see it's real form, it could have been pale

[marble oasis]

“whole arc” and it’s him moping in three places and then he dies

[stray fog]

John silk is typing

John silk

🔥

[strange hazel]

if the weavers cant reproduce, then what the hell are the little weavers?

[stray fog]

Retcon probably

[whole holly]

i mean they be nicknamed spiders, but they are victims of a retcon

[marble oasis]

gp is genuinely an old heart merchant he would be nothing without that organ

[frosty gate]

That's an arc!!! that's all he has!!!

[stray fog]

If you don't want that, then a potential explanation is that they're made of silk. This explains why the knight uses soul to make weaverlings

[marble oasis]

like all the other ones actually have feats and such

[frosty gate]

He's just a depressed gay

[whole holly]

like Trobbio...

[marble oasis]

Depressed gay people can have feats

Look at megumi

[frosty gate]

Trobbio's thing is a phase

[marble oasis]

never mind actually

[frosty gate]

You did not

[whole holly]

depressed gay is a feat

[frosty gate]

Yeah

[strange hazel]

trobbio is becoming more b l u e by the act

[frosty gate]

Yeah yeah

[strange hazel]

depressed is usually referred to being blue when in a lighthearted term

[whole holly]

Sea of Sorrows

[strange hazel]

if we fight trobbio again he'd be blue

[marble oasis]

or green

[strange hazel]

both figuratively and literally

[whole holly]

look at this

[strange hazel]

no he becomes purple, red and blue is purple, not red and green

[stray fog]

He would be ultraviolet

Electromagnetic spectrum

[strange hazel]

what does that mean he'd be invisible?

like a snake?

[marble oasis]

genuinely quirrel washes seth and it’s not even close

[strange hazel]

and a solid boss fight?

[stray fog]

He would reflect ultraviolet light and absorb visible light, so he appear black

[whole holly]

stop making it a competition

[strange hazel]

ohh

[marble oasis]

coward

[strange hazel]

LOST TROBBIO

[frosty gate]

Too primitive honestly, but then again

There was the Pale Wyrm

[whole holly]

quirrel, yeah.. i agree

[frosty gate]

Although we don't know how primitive Wyrms were

[marble oasis]

oh this is a good point

[stray fog]

I mean wyrms are like the ultimate creatures in hk

[strange hazel]

why didnt anyone mention my reference

[marble oasis]

pale king might have been the first of the wyrms

[whole holly]

it seems primitive, but that's just something

[stray fog]

🔥

[marble oasis]

People who be desperate for solid snake reaction gif

[frosty gate]

Palestag maybe was the prime of Cloverstags

Or maybe its just a fable

[strange hazel]

i just thought someone would notice it

[marble oasis]

I noticed it

[frosty gate]

Maybe it has something to do with the Pale Lake, considering all of those place are kinda connected

Idk

[strange hazel]

ok

anyway im out back to drawing a weaver

[frosty gate]

But I do think that the princes got the Old Heart status from the Stag

[marble oasis]

pale lake has like nothing to do with pallor i’m afraid

[stray fog]

I've asked this before, but why is pale lake pale
Other than being light coloured

[marble oasis]

cook again

[frosty gate]

God fucking knows

There's nothing Pale about it

[marble oasis]

[stray fog]

It would make sense if it regenerated soul
That would also explain hot springs

But it doesn't regenerate soul

[marble oasis]

the sand seems to glitter very faintly

[whole holly]

i don't, it seems to speculative, it is just mark of their divine right

[stray fog]

We have another pale fern situation

[whole holly]

but i don't think it is higher being anymore, i think Pale is separate thing all on it's own

[marble oasis]

if you would believe it i mention them too

[frosty gate]

"Proof it became, of our majesty... mark of our divine right..."

Keyword: Divine

[whole holly]

old hearts aren't really said to be divine, if they are i haven't seen it and would like to be proved otherwise

[marble oasis]

nyleth is a hb-lite

[whole holly]

she isn't really called divine though

[frosty gate]

All Old Hearts are

[marble oasis]

not really

khann and karmelita are mortal bugs

and they didn’t give rise to the entirety of their areas

[whole holly]

all old hearts are

[marble oasis]

nyleth is only mortal cause we killed her

[whole holly]

it is implied that they do, though, Karmelita's death will impact far fields according to gilly

[marble oasis]

i realise how that sounds

but all immortal beings in hk can be killed

immortal just means won’t die of old age here

[frosty gate]

"Pharloom was not born of that monarch, Old One. Power existed in these lands even before she bound them beneath her."

They are never mentioned to be divine, but the power they have might aswell be. They are powerful mortal bugs. Plus, even if the others are not said to be divin, GP saying it must be something

[whole holly]

powerful and divine have very different meanings, you can be powerful without being divine and vice versa

[frosty gate]

They're all powerful revered bugs by their respective species, except Nyleth who's just a plant

[marble oasis]

so is like

[whole holly]

Nyleth was in fact revered, even by Citadel, they built her Shrine...

[marble oasis]

crawfather lol

[marble oasis]

conductor ballador is a higher being?

maintains the citadel

powerful

[frosty gate]

Is Crawfather powerful?

[marble oasis]

revered by his people

[frosty gate]

Did you fight him?

[whole holly]

Old Hearts are third of power of Higher Being

[frosty gate]

I forgot the chapter where you kill Ballador

[stray fog]

Hes politically powerful
Idk about physical strength

[marble oasis]

They fucked up the surgery

[frosty gate]

But if the rest are just powerful and the fourth isn't mentioned at all and its just said to be Divine, I feel like there's something there

[whole holly]

but likely not divine, that's more of metaphysical and socio-cultural trait

[frosty gate]

That whole thing to me is weird, there's very little info about it imo

[whole holly]

Clover Dancers have divine right, which is different that being divine, divinity is exclusively related to Palestag and is most likely based on perception

[frosty gate]

Wouldn't you said all Old Hearts have sort of a Divine Right over the lands they preside?
I will admit I am going stretches for this one but I don't think its that farfetched

[whole holly]

lot of their content was cut, she was said to be Voice of the Woods or something like that, their musical aspects were significantly scaled back

[frosty gate]

Cutsong

[whole holly]

sure but that's most likely not referring to nature, way you mean to imply

[frosty gate]

Wdym nature?

[frosty gate]

I hope they bring her content back with a DLC of the past of Pharloom

[whole holly]

nature as in Higher Being divine status, and things related to it

[whole holly]

she was supposed to empower Seth with her voice, now we have no idea why Seth defends her, it's not even a mask or spell that we see

[frosty gate]

Dude was in love with a plant, nothing weird about it

Ogrim was into plants too

[whole holly]

plant they don't remember after fight, sure

[limpid summit]

Divine right to rule implies a Mandate of Heaven esque thing, maybe the Palestag was worshipped as a god or represented the god they worshipped

It’s not about the princes

[frosty gate]

That is weird ngl

[whole holly]

AppleEgg speaking facts yet again

[frosty gate]

I don't know why he can't remember things

[limpid summit]

Quirrel callback

But she probably bewitched him or something

[whole holly]

how are you always right

[limpid summit]

Some people think it’s the coat of leaves

But eh

[limpid summit]

Except MM

[whole holly]

with her Voice, that's we don't hear about, because her Musical Aspects were scaled back...

[frosty gate]

I think it was just the Prime of the species and that's it, therefore it was revered

Because to be fair, if a Unicorn appeared in front of me I WOULD revere that shit

[whole holly]

i mean Mister Mushroom is definitely writer/narrator character, it is different that lovecraftian monsters that we see called higher beings, but i don't want to argue right now...

[limpid summit]

I don’t know if I’d call the stag divine in a Higher Being sense

[frosty gate]

Neither would I

[limpid summit]

But it’s certainly in a high class

[frosty gate]

Let's also be very clear with something

[limpid summit]

Definitely a pale being by association

[frosty gate]

Palestag is not naturally pale

Or it doesn't seem to be according to the Prince

[limpid summit]

Probably not

It’s touched pale right

[frosty gate]

"Stag touched pale"

Whatever that means

[limpid summit]

But creatures can ascend

[frosty gate]

Yes

[limpid summit]

Idk if cloverstags have that potential

[crude geyser]

What's the pale?

[limpid summit]

Well

I never believed this

[whole holly]

not all things divine as Higher Beings, it is just certain proximity to it, like Weavers are Divine as well, Father of the Flame is revered and whole context is vague so i don't have anything concrete

[limpid summit]

But before Skynx some people thought Nosk’s mind powers came from the Pale Ore

Giving it some sort of soul essence control

[whole holly]

Palestag was first cloverstag and we have whole discussion about it, you can catch up about what i wrote if you want to

[limpid summit]

Maybe Palestag touched a remnant of ancient GMS

[frosty gate]

I honestly don't see why not

[whole holly]

likely not, maybe another Pale Being or Pale Phenomenon thing

[limpid summit]

Yeah she was a cloverstag for sure

[limpid summit]

I can’t say this isn’t true for sure but I don’t like it

[frosty gate]

https://tenor.com/view/sukuna-ryomen-sukuna-jjk-jujutsu-kaisen-shibuya-incident-gif-17531490632179252618

[limpid summit]

It’s not on you dhruv

I just hate everbloom

[whole holly]

i had whole discussion about it

[stray fog]

<Void tendril speech bubble image>

[whole holly]

Palestag lore is intentionally vague

[whole holly]

why?

[limpid summit]

What do you make of it Nika

[limpid summit]

It depends on how they contextualize first light but I find it a lame maguffin

[frosty gate]

I don't know your reason but I know i can't een blame you

[limpid summit]

I can’t believe we got everbloom lore without even finding out what it did in HK

[whole holly]

i mean all my thought are already written, in excessive amount, i said everything there is to be said you can just see what i discussed, i replied to it

[limpid summit]

I guess the implication is Godseeker Mode

I understand what you’re saying

About Palestag wanting to be remembered

I don’t know how indicative of its power that would be

But when Hornet says “did it really exist as I saw it” is she implying that a prime Palestag fight would have been much harder

And this vestige only has one attack

[whole holly]

i mean, it is implied that Palestag's memories faded in one way or another, true version was likely different, and if it appears in Pantheon of Pharloom Boss Rush DLC, Team Cherry will likely make it stronger because it makes sense for True Form to be Stronger, that's just common trajectory with many characters

[frosty gate]

That is

A rare interpretation of the meaning

Not weird or bad, just rare

Never seen other person interpret it like that

[whole holly]

but sensible one, to be honest, i thought about it as well, palestag likely has peak form if his memory faded

[fervent sigil]

is PK a dragon without wings and limbs?

[sinful nimbus]

Yea

His second form has wings and limbs though

[frosty gate]

It is sensible yeah

[whole holly]

i still interpret it that way but never told anyone because it is not common, channel is not really welcoming of such theories in my experience

[stray fog]

A serpentine dragon

Like shenron from dbz

https://tenor.com/view/shenron-dragonball-dragonball-super-dragonball-fighterz-dbz-gif-17314925

[sinful nimbus]

Can't believe Silksong didn't make a dragonfly pun

[frosty gate]

It is, I just never thought about it

[fervent sigil]

I AM THE ETERNAL DRAGON 🗣️🗣️

[limpid summit]

I guess I just don’t see it straight up not existing

[sinful nimbus]

7 years and they didn't come up with the most obvious peak ever

[whole holly]

Absolute Palestag fight might be interesting

[limpid summit]

It’s an extrapolation for sure

[whole holly]

Pendra?

[sinful nimbus]

Not dragons

[stray fog]

Even the wings are from a "monarchfly", whatever that is

[whole holly]

Dragonfly is closest thing we will ever get... i want you to know that, and we already got it

[frosty gate]

I swear to god, fucking TC can fix so many thing if they do a Past Memories DLC

[fervent sigil]

monarch chicken wings

[frosty gate]

LET US SEE MORE OF THE PAST

PRIME VERDANIA WITH NEW QUESTS

[spark pine]

Eh

[whole holly]

pendragor is close enough

[frosty gate]

PROPER QUESTS

NPCS

A WHOLE VILLAGE

[spark pine]

Hot take: I’ve seen enough of verdania

and coral

[whole holly]

i don't think we will get it

[spark pine]

rather have city of steel any day

[fervent sigil]

i agree with you but not on this one

[whole holly]

i would like to see those Pharloom Bay NPCs and Flora and Moss Heart by Moss Druid

[spark pine]

I want a dlc that explores the wastes outside of the kingdom more

Thats it

Oh and prob a pantheon one to

[whole holly]

we haven't even gotten sharka's or garmond's village

[spark pine]

Garmond village is destroyed and shakras is implied to be very far away

[whole holly]

or any of the interesting stuff, city of steel should be separate game, honestly i don't really want it

[whole holly]

1. fell to haunting 2. right at the edge 3. still want to see it

[whole holly]

i would rather have grimm trope dlc than city of steel

[frosty gate]

I do, i will die hoping

[fresh badger]

Grimm troupe would be very boring to see again I think

[frosty gate]

This is your worst take Nika I'm sorry

[fresh badger]

And ss is much less dream focused

[frosty gate]

Not that I agree with CoS DLC

But I really don't care about Grimm Troupe 2

[stray fog]

Steel city mentioned ‼️ ‼️

[whole holly]

i do want to know about steel clan but not entire city focused on it

[frosty gate]

Agreed

[whole holly]

i get it bro

i just want something little more interesting, Pharloom was one big quest in my opinion, too linear, too direct

[frosty gate]

That's fair honestly, but I don't think Grimm will give us the joy we want

[whole holly]

true, i guess

[frosty gate]

I honestly think that discovering the past sins of Pharloom, a DLC dedicated to the Steel Clan and a Prologue chapter DLC would make the game great

[whole holly]

yeah, less lifeblood, more song, more abstract world-building/lore

[frosty gate]

Agreed specifically with the last one

It wont kill them to give me the lore straight up

Fill the holes of the present with the past

[whole holly]

and Ancient Civilization, non-Pale Higher Being Lore, more thematic stuff

[frosty gate]

I don't think this is the place for Ancient Civ, but lore on non-Pale higher beings and strong bugs like the Old Hearts would be interesting

[whole holly]

one more Abyss Egg wouldn't hurt

[whole holly]

Void got repetitive without emotional impact that story of vessels, AC, pale king gave to Void in the original game

[frosty gate]

There's so much stuff I wanna know about the past of Pharloom that I don't know how to implement it all

I wanna know more about the flies

More lore on the Old Hearts is easier to tackle

You know something, going back to Palestag and Verdania

You know what really makes me believe Pale Stag was the original Old Heart?

"Power existed in these lands even before she bound them beneath her."

I don't think the Princes are that old

[whole holly]

they are last successors of that power, it is cycle of death rebirth and inheriting that power/old heart

[edgy nebula]

ullo

[whole holly]

hey

[frosty gate]

But they received their "Divine Right" after killing the Stag, and the Stag itself is said to be one with the flora of Verdania

What if they didn't inherit it normally like the rest

[whole holly]

yeah that is true

[frosty gate]

Hi Bobbi

[whole holly]

but it's their divine right to rule, we already kinda had this discussion

[edgy nebula]

the problem with that is that the palestag might not have been as strong as in the memory

[frosty gate]

Yeah, rule the lands

What you're saying doesn't conflict what I'm saying

[frosty gate]

Probably, yeah, but I still think it could be the Old Heart, if the Stag was indeed real

[dire lynx]

they recieved the divine right to rule, it is a fabled/mythical creature which probably had a story around how some legendary warriors would slay it, which doesnt really tell us anything about its potential power

[edgy nebula]

i like the theory but i think it’s more likely that after the green prince hunted it, the current ruler/successor of verdania gave them their power

[frosty gate]

The creature seemed completely at one with the flora around it.

It has the same "power" as Nyleth

[whole holly]

that's not how it works

[whole holly]

Nyleth is different, it is connected to all living things like rest of the Old hearts that maintain the lands by their power, Palestag is just grass type pokemon

[dire lynx]

thats assuming that what we saw was accurate, which almost all the dialogue surrounding palestag suggests isnt the case

[edgy nebula]

how so? i dont think it’s ever explained how power is passed on from one generation to the other

[whole holly]

i think power is inherited after dead, i don't think they are going to pluck out their heart to give it to young rulers, since clover dancers were born with heart that beat at same time they couldn't have been given that power

[frosty gate]

Palestag could have been what mantained the woods and when it was killed by the Princes the Power was passed down unto them.
Let us not forget that the Princes mantained Verdania and when they left it went all extinct

And when the Princes come back, Verdania grows again, even if just a little

[crimson patio]

Palestag is an unreliable thing

The only time we see it is in the prince’s mind and even then it’s not actually like that

We don’t even know if it existed or if the prince just believed it did

[frosty gate]

I cannot believe I'm talking about Palestag being a real thing, I have fallen from grace

🥀

[frosty gate]

I am a firm believer that it was just a Cloverstag

Or I was

[frosty gate]

I do agree, but I think the theory isn't that farfetched

[frosty gate]

And to be honest, Apple got me thinking like Isaac Newton fr

[whole holly]

palestag was not a ruler so it is unlikely

[frosty gate]

The Ruler thing was made up by the fandom

I know about it because I was there

[whole holly]

they are Last Successors of their respective power, they all are rulers

[frosty gate]

What I mean

Is the world Ruler was never used in game

I proposed the usage of the word Ruler to describe the Old Hearts

[whole holly]

Khann is Hardened warrior lord

Song queen of the Skarr is karmelita

[frosty gate]

And Karmel the queen of the Skar

[dire lynx]

keep working for my bingo card

[frosty gate]

But Nyleth is the queen of nothing

[whole holly]

Nyleth is ruler in sense that she control's ecosystem of shellwood

[frosty gate]

And we know Palestag is "One with the flora"

"Commands the grass and leaves to aid its attack."

[whole holly]

we already know Clover Dancers are Rulers of Verdania...

[frosty gate]

Never said they werent

[whole holly]

Palestag is just plant-life, not all plants are hearts

[whole holly]

you meant to imply it with similarities to nyleth

[frosty gate]

I thgink you are missunderstanding what I'm saying

I don't mean that Palestag is the ruler and the old heart

[edgy nebula]

palestag isn a plant, its hide mimics plant life

[frosty gate]

Yes, the Dancers are the ones who hold the heart of Verdania

[whole holly]

Isma is not heart, Phacia, Pollenica, Gahlia aren't either

[frosty gate]

But what I imply is that they got the power as The Last Sucessor of the Power after they slayed the beast

[whole holly]

even less reason for Palestag to maintain verdania

[echo moon]

Defeating the pale stag proved they had the right to rule Verdania.

[whole holly]

game confirms that they are from birth... heart is power and clover dancers were born with heart that beat at same pace...

[echo moon]

They essentially conquered the nature and then established their kingdom.

[dire lynx]

the culture of their tribe already existed before the slaying of the plae stag

[edgy nebula]

it says they were born on same beat

[echo moon]

It's not that they were never powerful before, defeating the pale stag just proved that

[edgy nebula]

that doesnt mean they were born with hearts

beat is used as a measurement of time in sk

[spark valve]

the culture is probably why defeating the pale stag was a big deal

[whole holly]

it is just social status, they don't really gain power from it, they just proved themselves to verdania

[dire lynx]

yes, thats what i said

[echo moon]

yeah thats what I said

[frosty gate]

Just that they were born at the same time

[spark valve]

even if the version of the palestag we fight is exaggerated the hunt was enough to put them in high esteem to claim leadership

[whole holly]

ok

[frosty gate]

Tammo you are a critic, what do you think about the Palestag being the original holder of the Verdania Heart/Power

[spark valve]

possible

[whole holly]

it is still predetermined: Two children born entwined, apart,
Two children marked to rule,
They danced, they sang, proved blades beyond,
But none forgot their birth,
For lovers born on beat exact shall be forever cursed.

[frosty gate]

✋ 🤚 I rest my case

[whole holly]

this proves it is unlikely

[spark valve]

I'm skeptical of the 'it used plants to fight' angle because of the aforementioned nature of the fight in the game being explicitly mythologized but like it's a being that had something special and existed before the princes

I wouldn't say there's great reason to think it was the heart before but it could have been

[whole holly]

we don't know if it actually controlled plants that just GP's warped memory

[spark valve]

it's a good headcanon at least

[whole holly]

it is just as likely that moss mother is a heart... with same logic, or phacia

[whole holly]

not really, since it is predetermined from birth : Two children born entwined, apart,
Two children marked to rule,
They danced, they sang, proved blades beyond,
But none forgot their birth,
For lovers born on beat exact shall be forever cursed.” it is unlikely they obtained it from Palestag, it's just tradition

[frosty gate]

I have hated to think the Palestag was real all this time just to end on the other end of the road

I still think it's unreliable info

[dire lynx]

it was certainly real, its just the extent of its power and nature that is in doubt

[frosty gate]

Yeah that's what I mean

It could've been a regular Cloverstag

[edgy nebula]

this is explaining how the rulers came to be, methinks

[spark valve]

it's a cool implication of the magic system that memories can work like that

[whole holly]

we don't know how accurate it's form is, it could have been stronger or weaker

[dire lynx]

moby dick ahh cloverstag

[frosty gate]

But in the case it was actually real, the thought that Palestag was the original Heart isn't crazy

[whole holly]

still predetermined

[whole holly]

if team cherry made it a reality, they would be bad writers

[spark valve]

it's not crazy but it's not really supported either, like I said I like it as a headcanon but idk if it goes beyond that

[dire lynx]

"bad writing is when something disagrees with me"

[frosty gate]

Queue White Whale, Holy Grail

[spark valve]

hearts are like centers of latent power anyways they don't necessarily have the ability to wield the region's power magically

[frosty gate]

The main wall to cross is to prove was indeed real and had magic and that GP isn't insane

[whole holly]

it's not about my personal disagreement, but yes opinions are subjective.

[spark valve]

it doesn't necessarily need to have actually had magic

[frosty gate]

I say magic meaning the whole "One with the Flora" and "Commanding grass"

[whole holly]

i mean... i think Palestag serves as lost memory implication and it's flawed recollection

[spark valve]

it being of enough spiritual or symbolic significance would make it reasonable as a heart

[spark valve]

yeah I don't think any of that had to have literally been true of the palestag for it to have been a heart

[whole holly]

that's not what the hearts are...

[frosty gate]

Considering the Hearts are all connected to the lands

I think that at the very least "One with the Flora" should be real

[spark valve]

sure they're all spiritually and magically connected to them, that doesn't necessarily mean they could all wield them

[frosty gate]

Khan and Nyleth could

[spark valve]

karmelita doesn't

[frosty gate]

One out of 3

[spark valve]

and nyleth is a bit of a weird case since the stuff she wields isn't just part of the environment it's part of her

[frosty gate]

I am stretching, but odds are on my side

[frosty gate]

That is true

[whole holly]

Palestag’s memory is distorted and no one knows if Palestag Existed as it was witnessed it memory and his Needolin Dialogue suggests that
“May echoes gather…
Lonely specks, adrift…
Forgotten or lost…
Winding ways meet again…
What is remembered…
Facets many, shining apart…
”
Palestag's Needolin dialogue is about how scattered, forgotten fragments, whether dreams, memories, or ideas can reconvene into a complex, multi‑faceted whole. and Hunter's Journal Palestag entry confirms it whether or not Palestag was Pale or even if it existed

[dire lynx]

also remember that khann is special for his coral control

[spark valve]

khann is the only one using the environment like that as an external thing and even that is something other karaka sort of do to an extent, albeit a vastly lesser one

[whole holly]

Karmelita's Death is implied to have negative consequences on Wildlife, so point i guess goes towards you

[spark valve]

there's also shit like sister splinter who can manipulate the life in her domain despite not being an old heart, at the very least manipulating the environment like khann isn't 1:1 with being a heart