sk-lore

[halcyon merlin]

not that i ever used it to have an idea on how it looks

[cobalt needle]

Ya I think that’s how it works

[spark valve]

Flexible belt of serrated metal teeth, able to affixed to the hem of a cloak

[stray fog]

Who is david

[gentle aspen]

no

Its on her dress

[halcyon merlin]

woohoo i guessed it right

[gentle aspen]

and injector band probably doesn’t hurt all that much

[cobalt needle]

Ya I js saw it lol

I think it’s js like a bigger needle shot

[gentle aspen]

Like it’s basically a stir I get

[cobalt needle]

Plants lifeblood so prolly not ya

[gentle aspen]

Fuck you autocomplete

I’m going to ved

[stray fog]

Who is David though

You need to tell me

Before sleeping

[spark valve]

he was making an edgerunners reference

[stray fog]

Oh

[cobalt needle]

Cyberpunk?

Or Am I dumb

[covert night]

this is mostly accurate then

[cobalt needle]

lol ya

[gentle aspen]

I’d assume she wears the bracelet on her arm

but what do I know

I’m only human after all

[cobalt needle]

Nah ur right it’s called a braclet after all

[twilit crest]

ok so like whats up with the nursery in the white palace

[covert night]

[cobalt needle]

Wdym

[twilit crest]

who was raised there if thk was already big enough to move on its own

[halcyon merlin]

horn bracelet

[lucid knot]

David Martinez is a character in ProjektCD's Cyberpunk 2077. He installs a cybernetic spine without anesthetic.

-# Realistically, the amount of pain a spine surgery would inflict would literally kill the brain.

[halcyon merlin]

wait i just realized

[cobalt needle]

Ya

[halcyon merlin]

horn-et
horn = 1
et = extraterrestrial extra-terrestrial... extra... like 1 more
so hornet = 2 horns

[stray fog]

Is this ball knowledge?

[halcyon merlin]

maybe in the middle

[cobalt needle]

What r u saying

[halcyon merlin]

don't put the blame on me if im wrong

[halcyon merlin]

randomness

[cobalt needle]

Nono I’m not trying to

O ok fair lol

[stray fog]

https://tenor.com/view/say-that-again-gif-968943876633031890

[cobalt needle]

I’m confuse

[stray fog]

Its a song

The guy in the music video is spinning

[cobalt needle]

O cool
I don’t know jack all about music😭

[twilit crest]

i was genuinely asking btw </3 not bait

[cobalt needle]

No I tried asking wdym

Like can u elaborate

Ur lil theory thing

[twilit crest]

that was the elaboration

not a theory a query

[cobalt needle]

O srry

[halcyon merlin]

the lyrics are "im only human after all, don't put the blame on me, im only human i make mistakes"

that's what became a meme

[cobalt needle]

Ohhh gotcha

[twilit crest]

we see a nursery in the white palace in hk but it wouldnt make sense to assume it is for the hollow knight itself given it appears to be for actual newborns

[cobalt needle]

I js don’t know music unless someone introduces me to something specific

[halcyon merlin]

hornet

[twilit crest]

thk is already big enough to move on its own by the time it escapes the void

[twilit crest]

possible retcon u think? cause we see in skong where hornet was when she was a baby

[stray fog]

But hornet went to yhe white lady last

After 2 other mothers

[halcyon merlin]

maybe but just because we only saw that memory it shouldn't mean that was the only time hornet saw her

[cobalt needle]

Wasn’t she raised by the white lady tho

[halcyon merlin]

its like saying that was the only time hornet saw herrah

[cobalt needle]

True

[halcyon merlin]

or vespa

[twilit crest]

i thought it was a samurai jack kind of situation

hornet stays with a different mom at different points in her life

either way wouldnt explain her having an entire baby nursery

[halcyon merlin]

uhhh best memory the spell picked that has to do with hornet growing fr

[cobalt needle]

She is the child with 3 mothers

[halcyon merlin]

never watched samurai jac

k

[halcyon merlin]

ah well i guess

unless she was born there

because she's technically royalty

[cobalt needle]

OHHHH I SEE WHAT UR SAYING

[twilit crest]

right, wouldnt she have been born in deepnest with the other weavers

[cobalt needle]

Wait wait wait

[halcyon merlin]

it makes sense too

but who knows

[cobalt needle]

Wasn’t she raised by the white lady who was likely living in the white palace so it would make sense to have a room for hornet in the white palace

[covert night]

that doesnt necessarily mean hornet hasnt been to white palace when she was a baby

[twilit crest]

i guess one can assume thk was big enough to climb out of the void on its own but still small enough for a cradle lol

[halcyon merlin]

do vessels even need to sleep

[halcyon merlin]

apparently yes

all 3 queens

[twilit crest]

yeah but would hornet need a whole room dedicated to her

she has a bedroom in deepnest iirc

[cobalt needle]

I’m mean the knight dozes off and hornet has a bed so?

[halcyon merlin]

hornet isnt a vessel

and well true the knight kinda dozes off in a bench

[twilit crest]

it could just be for comfort if not for explicit sleep

[covert night]

there was an unused room asset i think

[halcyon merlin]

true

[cobalt needle]

I don’t think they have to it would js b nice ya

[twilit crest]

this is the same kingdom with sawblade city mind you

but yeah i wonder who the nursery was for

[halcyon merlin]

i think most of people agree it was for hornet

[twilit crest]

that seems far too inconclusive

[halcyon merlin]

the only person it could be other than hornet is thk yeah

[cobalt needle]

Right bc who else

[twilit crest]

if hornet has a bedroom in deepnest and a nursery in white palace why wouldnt she have something in the hive

[halcyon merlin]

well

fair enough

[cobalt needle]

I don’t think she live there tho

I mean when it comes to her and the hive isn’t it only like training?

[halcyon merlin]

well the safest to assume is that she lived more in deepnest

[covert night]

it could just be a common nursery but that wouldn't need a seperate room

[cobalt needle]

Right I think that’s fair

[halcyon merlin]

a nursery for who though 😭

[twilit crest]

right like it is very much a lore room with explicit implications

[covert night]

guardians etc

[halcyon merlin]

the servants?

[cobalt needle]

Y would the guardians need a nursery tho

[covert night]

and servants yeah

[halcyon merlin]

hmm

[cobalt needle]

Weren’t they created by like architecture or something

Like not birthed by another

[halcyon merlin]

well pk would truly be a very cool king

[cobalt needle]

True

[halcyon merlin]

if he provided pregnancy thing for his servants

i forgot the name

[halcyon merlin]

ah

by guardians you mean kingsmould?

[cobalt needle]

Ya

O wait

Is that not what we’re saying 😭

[halcyon merlin]

there's a room where it shows a thing on how they are created

[covert night]

no the big guys that deal 2dmg

[cobalt needle]

Right

[covert night]

i was mentioning them

[halcyon merlin]

so kingsmould

[cobalt needle]

Right right right

[covert night]

idk i forgot their name

[cobalt needle]

Ya it’s kingsmould

[twilit crest]

yeah kingsmoulds are made not born

[covert night]

but servants make more sense anyway

[twilit crest]

they wouldnt need a cradle

[cobalt needle]

Even in the name they were like moulded created by the king

[twilit crest]

a single cradle

[cobalt needle]

Ya exactly

[halcyon merlin]

yes

[halcyon merlin]

hornetttttt!!!!

[cobalt needle]

If we’re talking about the servants that bow y they need a nursery? I feel like their the type to not wanna bother the king to b out into a nursery

Ya

Plus there’s like 1 tiny bed

[twilit crest]

i guess so. still feels inconclusive on that front

[covert night]

it's definitely not a regular nursery

[cobalt needle]

I js don’t think we got another explanation

[halcyon merlin]

well we don't know any other character it could be right

considering everyone who lived in white palace

[cobalt needle]

Ya

[twilit crest]

its either thk, hornet, or some other child of pk

[cobalt needle]

Who would that child b tho

[halcyon merlin]

i think if pk had another child TC wouldn't hide it

specially since like him and thk had that father and son bonding

[twilit crest]

i dont remember if hk states whether thk was the first vessel to escape or if it was just the most successful

[halcyon merlin]

i think it was the first really

[cobalt needle]

Ohhhhh ya

[halcyon merlin]

the only sense if it wasn't the first is if any other vessel who climbed died somehow

[twilit crest]

i guess it can be chalked up to weird writing choice lol

[halcyon merlin]

which i guess isn't the case

[twilit crest]

"i know you can climb out of the underworld with your godlike powers but i worry about you falling off the bed in your sleep"

[cobalt needle]

I mean the world of hollow knight is dangerous filled with death so I think the knight player is js a lucky bastard

[halcyon merlin]

i mean

if it fell, it would maybe die

[cobalt needle]

LOL

[halcyon merlin]

a lot of vessels died by falling

[twilit crest]

just like a real life baby

[halcyon merlin]

apparently

[cobalt needle]

How do we know that tho?

[cobalt needle]

By the saying?

[halcyon merlin]

the suspiciously vessels body everywhere shaped abyss

[twilit crest]

wdym

[glacial warren]

I mean the Knight is still a Void construct/Godling.

[cobalt needle]

This

[twilit crest]

that was a joke

[cobalt needle]

O

[glacial warren]

It can still whoop foes like Hornet into yesteryear even in a weakened state.

[twilit crest]

it wouldnt make sense for hornet to go from deepnest > white palace > hive > white palace

[halcyon merlin]

i think the knight itself is just strong though

[twilit crest]

so i guess we have to default to assuming the nursery is for thk

[halcyon merlin]

compared to other vessels

he survived the fall on the abyss from the top

and even beat abs rad and pure vessel

[limpid summit]

Nursery plays birthplace theme right

Obv not canon but I think it’s implied to be for THK

[twilit crest]

im not actually sure

[halcyon merlin]

does it

[cobalt needle]

I’ll look it up

[halcyon merlin]

i guess if it does it would make sense for it to be thk

[twilit crest]

if it does that is damning

[glacial warren]

Main thing is Knight gained a will of its own due to exposure to going outside Hallownest, resulting in the Pale King’s commands for it to be empty being excised from its mind.

[gentle aspen]

No

plays the shade theme

[limpid summit]

Oh

[gentle aspen]

that’s not how that works

Vessels just have wills naturally

[halcyon merlin]

he never was hollow

[limpid summit]

Thats solid enough too

[twilit crest]

still pretty conclusive in that case

[glacial warren]

So the Knight is more adept than most Vessels because it gained a will all its own.

[halcyon merlin]

none of them were

which is thk can't contain the radiance

[cobalt needle]

O really?

[gentle aspen]

no

[glacial warren]

True but. Still, the Knight had more of a clear mind than most due to exposure to going beyond Hallownest and having the Pale King’s orders wiped from it.

[gentle aspen]

that still isn’t true

[twilit crest]

ghost is better than other vessels purely because it has the player controlling its actions. its like link

[gentle aspen]

leaving Hallownest didn’t affect the knight’s mind

[glacial warren]

As Hornet quotes: “Yours is a strength born of two voids.”

[gentle aspen]

The beacon only works for beings not naturally sapient

[gentle aspen]

yeah because the wastes are a dangerous place

[halcyon merlin]

that's what hornet means?

huh

[twilit crest]

we dont actually know where ghost went before the evends of the game

[gentle aspen]

resilience is just being tough

[twilit crest]

we know it went to the wastes but no idea how far out

[glacial warren]

It’s more than that: Leaving Hallownest means losing the sentience the Pale King grants, basically the heat-death of your mind.

[twilit crest]

it very well couldve just been sleeping above dirtmouth this entire time until the radiance woke it up

[gentle aspen]

Which only applies to beings that got their sentience given to them by PK through his beacon

[limpid summit]

That’s for bugs who would have been animalistic but were uplifted by the Beacon

Ugh

Snail

[gentle aspen]

Vessels do not apply with this

[gentle aspen]

They’re naturally sapient

[halcyon merlin]

wait the beacon thing has a range?

damn

[limpid summit]

Vessel minds come from Void imprinting on the fetuses of PK and WL who probably didn’t need the beacon

And void for sure doesn’t need it

[glacial warren]

The Knight left Hallownest at some point and essentially had its mind wiped clean, then wandered back in due to the call of the Seals weakening.

[limpid summit]

TK may have lost its memory we don’t know for sure

[halcyon merlin]

yes

that is right

[limpid summit]

But maybe

[twilit crest]

i thought the call was from radiance itself

[halcyon merlin]

well not the call of the seals weaking

[cobalt needle]

Wait so they would js forget the king like a snap of a finger?

[halcyon merlin]

but he was called back to hallownest

[gentle aspen]

Well no, the wastes don’t do that to vessels

[glacial warren]

Well yeah Radiance lashing out due to the hold of her container getting weaker.

[gentle aspen]

and it wouldn’t be simple memory loss in the knight’s case

[twilit crest]

theres no way for ghost to know who the king is prior to the game anyway

[halcyon merlin]

he didn't say that the wastes did that

[gentle aspen]

I mean we do know

[halcyon merlin]

just that he wandered off hallownest and lost his memories

[glacial warren]

More or less. That’s why it has to ‘remember’ upon reaching the Birthplace: It has no memories of its origins because it was exposed to the wastes.

[limpid summit]

We do?

[gentle aspen]

“They left Hallownest and had its mind wiped clean”

[limpid summit]

Am I tripping

Oh I guess remember the past

It’s phrased that way

[twilit crest]

we dont know what ghost was doing prior to the start of hk. only where it came from, a cliff slightly above dirtmouth.

[halcyon merlin]

is he assuming that as soon as he left hallownest he lost his memories

[twilit crest]

it couldve been sleeping, wandering, stuck, we just dk for sure

[limpid summit]

Well TK probably didn’t have all that many memories

Being born and escaping

Wouldn’t have been too rehabilitating

[halcyon merlin]

isn't it howling cliffs

[glacial warren]

Ye. It came from the direction of the Howling Cliffs, the wastes beyond Hallownest.

[halcyon merlin]

hence why the start of the game is he falling

[gentle aspen]

That’s not relevant to the current conversation

[twilit crest]

i was just saying sheesh

[glacial warren]

You can actually revisit that path you went up to if you circle around the Cliffs in full.

[cobalt needle]

At this point anything is open tho

[halcyon merlin]

what was the discussion even about

[twilit crest]

you said we know and im saying we only know the bare minimum

was adding detail to the convo is all

sorry

[glacial warren]

Also I noticed Pharloom is kind of an inversion of Hallownest.

[cobalt needle]

No ur good

[cobalt needle]

Elaborate

[twilit crest]

for sure

[glacial warren]

Instead of being a cave system underground, Pharloom is a mountain you have to climb.

[cobalt needle]

O ya

[twilit crest]

hk has you descending and silksong has you ascending

[halcyon merlin]

well you also descend in silksong and ascend in hk

[cobalt needle]

I mean that’s the whole saying in Silksong to ascend to the gods to gms

[twilit crest]

descending dark vs silk soar

[cobalt needle]

True but most of the game u ascend

[halcyon merlin]

useful in a fight vs not useful in a fight

[halcyon merlin]

well yeah...

[twilit crest]

if ur trying to make silk soar work in combat then idk what to tell you

[cobalt needle]

Useful for fight vs useful for exploration

[halcyon merlin]

yes

[cobalt needle]

Yayy

[glacial warren]

You’re ascending rather than descending. Also the Pale King was reclusive but beloved by his people, whereas Grand Mother Silk is more accessible to her worshippers, but she’s also their prisoner.

[halcyon merlin]

maybe make it so using it on an enemy deals 100 damage

[twilit crest]

hollow knight being about fatherhood and duty where silksong is about motherhood and escaping familial traumas

[cobalt needle]

Nah that’d get rid of the whole combat system

[twilit crest]

in this essay i will

[halcyon merlin]

would only work on bosses like gms and that flies

[cobalt needle]

Then that’d RLLY get rid of the combat system

It’s b so easy to silksoar gms

[twilit crest]

would be fun tho

[halcyon merlin]

it has like a 3 seconds startup too

[twilit crest]

imagine uppercutting a final boss

[halcyon merlin]

you would get hit before using it

[twilit crest]

sounds like absolute peak

[cobalt needle]

I mean ya it’d b cool but it’ll b lame if it o ko’d it

Like I’m js saying I don’t like the dealin 100 dmg

[glacial warren]

Like if you really think about it, Grand Mother Silk is as much a prisoner to her cult as much as she’s their ‘leader’.

[cobalt needle]

Ya ig

[glacial warren]

They just. Keep her caged in that giant blob of Silk and worship her to sustain her, and then use all the Silk she generates for their own ends.

[cobalt needle]

Ya

[twilit crest]

yeah the citadel of song does all they do to maintain the seal on gms so they can extract her silk

they literally abuse her for their own gain

[spark valve]

the citadel is primarily a prison she doesn't lead them in any real sense

[cobalt needle]

Wait y can’t she like cut the silk with her blades?

[twilit crest]

the conductors are the REAL antagonists of silksong if we're being real

[spark valve]

the citadel keeps her asleep

[cobalt needle]

Ya that’s kinda right

[cobalt needle]

O ya

[glacial warren]

They’re just more victims of their own people’s cruelty, though.

The mantle of Conductor is a heavy thing, especially with what you learn about how exactly one ‘becomes’ a Conductor.

[twilit crest]

the conductors were the ones to turn the church of song into the citadel

they are also 100% the builders of places like bilewater and underworks

[glacial warren]

Let’s just say some parts of bugkind’s imagination are better left alone.

[halcyon merlin]

by the way

with the way hornet says that thing

do all pale beings desire to govern

[cobalt needle]

Plus the conductors have like the highest location of the architects and vault keepers

[spark valve]

hornet seems to think so but that's also inconsistent with the first game so eeeh

[halcyon merlin]

i thought it was higher beings but hornet says "my something" like her people

[glacial warren]

I mean yeah they’re the defacto heads of the cult but at the same time their existence is agony beyond measure.

[halcyon merlin]

which like the only similar thing is being pale

[halcyon merlin]

ah

[spark valve]

it's also spiders and in another dialogue with the caretaker he basically says it's part of the impulses of both them and gods

but it's not unique to them either

[halcyon merlin]

oh

i see

[spark valve]

So what're you hopin' for, eh? Planning to usurp, to perch above us all as queen? Build up our hopes only to string us all in your own beastly web? Such is the way of Weavers and gods both...

[glacial warren]

The true root of all evil in the Citadel all stems from one location: The Whiteward.

[gentle aspen]

no the evil’s because of the weavers

[cobalt needle]

Fair ya
The citadel in general is evil

[gentle aspen]

they made the system

[spark valve]

it stems from gms but a lot of factions have participated over the ages

[cobalt needle]

They did

[halcyon merlin]

hmm so it makes more sense with what hornet is saying when referring to gms tyranny

[twilit crest]

conductors:

[glacial warren]

The Weavers were just projects of the Grand Mother. The horrors wrought from the Whiteward are the work of the cult’s Surgeons.

[glacial warren]

But the Conductors are just more victims of the Whiteward in the end.

The Whiteward made them.

[gentle aspen]

and then the weavers made the citadel to keep her asleep

[spark valve]

the weavers founded the citadel and utilized mass slavery and religious propaganda to get bugs to run it

[twilit crest]

we dont have reason to believe weavers constructed the fuckery in whiteward. but we do have plenty of proof that conductors were fine with it

[gentle aspen]

they also probably ate people at one point

[glacial warren]

Well yeah but still.

[muted lantern]

Well we actually do see weaver architecture in whiteward specifically

[cobalt needle]

What makes u say that

[spark valve]

they definitely ate people at one point but that's low on the list of their evils

[glacial warren]

What happened in the Whiteward just isn’t right, man.

[twilit crest]

the silkfly machine?

[spark valve]

Sister, spider, husk bound to branch,
Watch over these bugs, passing safe,
Warded by fear,
No longer your meal.

[gentle aspen]

One of the harps below a pickup mentions them no longer eating people

[muted lantern]

Yeah it's definitely weaver style, it even has the same spears from the cradle

[gentle aspen]

The one in shellwood

[twilit crest]

thats a good point

[cobalt needle]

WHAT
I never knew that

[gentle aspen]

Yeah what he said

[twilit crest]

but we also see ballador being fed silk in a very similar method as what was being experimented in whiteward

[muted lantern]

Weavers machines could have been repurposed by the conductors but weavers were very much involved in the horrors of the citadel

[gentle aspen]

they were fucked up man

[gentle aspen]

It’s all about how abused can become abusers and the cycle of it all

[glacial warren]

Oh yeah you don’t wanna know man. The Conductors were essentially the most experimented on and heavily modified of all bugs who were in the Whiteward.

[gentle aspen]

GMS fucked up her kids so her kids made the citadel and lace partakes in gleeful murder

[limpid summit]

They likely were

[gentle aspen]

and then hornet became a little racist

[twilit crest]

weaver era: fucked up warband/cult
conductor era: megachurch

[limpid summit]

The Conductors wouldn’t have tried to focus on ruling for eternity until the cogwork core was self automating

[cobalt needle]

NOT MY GOAT

[glacial warren]

I mean still I feel more pity for the Conductors than anything. The things they went through to become what they are just isn’t right.

No living creature should have to endure that.

[dreamy onyx]

the conductors weren't good people tho

[cobalt needle]

Hurt people hurt people

[spark valve]

the conductors weren't really experimented on they ordered the immortality stuff done and participated themselves

[cobalt needle]

That’s prolly best way to say what the conductors T

[twilit crest]

conductors built the underworks. they can get fucked sideways #loamdidnothingwrong

[dreamy onyx]

im pretty sure it was the conductors who destroyed bilewater and sinner's road

[cobalt needle]

Yup

[spark valve]

everyone sucks in pharloom

[limpid summit]

Conductors were the party that (as far as we know) had the least done to them

[glacial warren]

Well still there’s a lot of…modification that happens to a bug when they ‘become’ a Conductor.

You don’t wanna know.

[cobalt needle]

It’s js like real life

[limpid summit]

Barring the fact that they may have had to climb the ranks of the Citadel through toil

[dreamy onyx]

maybe even Karak if they used the water from the river for High Halls

[spark valve]

not really

[gentle aspen]

They’re just fat bro

[twilit crest]

are conductors made? i thought they were just a caste of bug

[glacial warren]

They had the most done to them. Again the sheer modifications and surgery afflicted just to become a Conductor.

[muted lantern]

The conductors were very much the worst of the citadels monsters, mizello directly led the whiteward expiriments. including the lobotomizing and enslavement of people as robots and all the other horrors. The Conductors also didn't have nearly as much reason for their actions like the weavers who were perpetuating the cycle of abuse. the conductors got given the keys to the city and decided they wanted to be immortal.

[dreamy onyx]

yeah they're probably just fat pilgrims lol

[gentle aspen]

No but they most likely weren’t any more modified than the rest of the citadel

[dreamy onyx]

my hc is that they're big because they had such lavish lifestyles

[spark valve]

like what modifications?

[limpid summit]

The conductors were how they are pre surgery that’s just how they looked

[dreamy onyx]

silk injection

[twilit crest]

would be very poetic for them to just be regular bugs with inflated egos and penchants for atrocities

[gentle aspen]

Ballador does require silk but that’s because the guy partook in immortality experiments

[dreamy onyx]

but im 90% sure they did it to themselves to live longer

[spark valve]

the conductors were also in servitude to the weavers then given a chance to be in charge the parallel to the weavers is very much there

[limpid summit]

Why doesn’t GMS just kill Ballador

[gentle aspen]

why would she

[twilit crest]

hes more useful alive i guess?

[dreamy onyx]

also i think they established the memorium because they were actively destroying pharloom lol

[muted lantern]

Theres nothing that says anything was done to them. they modified themselves to live forever, thats the whole thing with the whiteward experiments.

[twilit crest]

i do wonder why gms didnt just send lace to kill everyone

[gentle aspen]

even then like

[glacial warren]

They’re never listed but from what we see in the Ward, the Psalm Cylinder we find listing off a surgery in progress, and Ballador’s Needolin dialogue displaying his regrets of ‘would I have taken the mantle had I known the cost?’

[gentle aspen]

They did a shit job of it

[heavy gyro]

She protects him if anything

[limpid summit]

The cost was GMS

[dreamy onyx]

he's just not that important lol. he's unable to do anything

[limpid summit]

Fair

[dreamy onyx]

oh absolutely, it reads more like a human zoo than a genuine wildlife preserve

[gentle aspen]

being regretful of what he did doesn’t mean he was modified extensively or even at all

[spark valve]

the surgery isn't some weird modification prior to being able to become a conductor it's the immortality procedure, and the weight of the mantle is about ruling not being allat actually

[dreamy onyx]

like they want to gawk at how Pharloom used to look when it was "uncivilised"

[twilit crest]

poetic irony right there

[cobalt needle]

Ima go now I had lotsa fun talking to u guys about my fav game this is my first time using a server to thx for the good talks bye!
Srry for this coming out of nowhere lol

[twilit crest]

"we fucked the world up beyond recognition and our attempts at conservation are too little; too late." hmm that sounds awfully familiar.

[limpid summit]

I’m glad this channel can still make people happy

[glacial warren]

I mean that Psalm Cylinder still heavily implies what’s being done to these bugs is not gentle or fast or painless.

[gentle aspen]

oh well it certainly isn’t painless

but they probably got the least of it

[spark valve]

no but in the conductors' case it is voluntary and y'know a lot of people would take that deal for immortality

the choir wouldn't have gotten a choice though

[glacial warren]

I mean still, the poor bastards.

[twilit crest]

man it has been a rough few weeks in the server but i hope we can all try to be more friendly in the future

[limpid summit]

True tapeworm true

[marble oasis]

it’s probably not really though

[dreamy onyx]

what the hell happened

[muted lantern]

No i need to kill everyone now

[marble oasis]

Fuck you

[limpid summit]

I wonder if Romino saw visions GMS after the surgery

[gentle aspen]

I mean
they’re effectively the upper crust of the citadel

they would want to stay in power

[twilit crest]

i die with honor

[glacial warren]

They still have the largest surgery seat in the Ward, which has two of those injector arm-things poised at it. The rest we have to leave to our lovely imagination.

[dreamy onyx]

i really wouldn't call them poor, they were greedy with how they made the citadel so opulent and how they likely actively led efforts to colonise more and more

[gentle aspen]

ofc they got the largest seat in the ward

look at their size

[dreamy onyx]

and also wrecked bilewater

[limpid summit]

They’re the largest dudes in the ward

[gentle aspen]

them tiny ass seats can’t fill allat

[twilit crest]

why didnt the conductors just chill out and smoke weed. are they stupid?

[limpid summit]

Bilewater was probably the conductors yeah

Weavers wouldn’t muddy their own Weavenest

[muted lantern]

They never met zaza so they couldn't smoke him

[gentle aspen]

I mean

[spark valve]

they weren't using it anymore

[limpid summit]

Yeah they were

[dreamy onyx]

they were gone or dead by then

[twilit crest]

i think its fair to assume bilewater was soiled during the conductor era

[glacial warren]

I know but still their existence is implied to be essentially constant agony, especially if Ballador’s Needolin dialogue is anything to go off of. Being a Conductor is p a i n, and the mantle wears heavy.

[muted lantern]

So is zaza actually an animal or is he sapient? theres like one pre release description that says hes the smartest of the pair but i assume that was a joke calling garm a dumbass

[limpid summit]

They went back to the Weavenests occasionally

[dreamy onyx]

Ballador only says that because he's probably regretful

[limpid summit]

Ig maybe not murglin

But there’s entombed Weavers in them

[dreamy onyx]

though we don't see any other conductors so shrug

[muted lantern]

Also we know the weavers took some part in the citadels construction because we know they built the bell shrine bells

[spark valve]

that's not regularly going back

[twilit crest]

your assumption would be correct. garm is a don quixote reference who was said to be dumber than his own horse

[glacial warren]

I mean look at the state he’s in, though. He’s on Silk life support and can only wheeze at us. We can’t even see his body behind the curtain.

[spark valve]

we know they took a part in it because it's straight up stated they built it

[twilit crest]

i cant imagine weavers would defile their own graves tho

[limpid summit]

Fair

I guess ruined tool would have been pre Citadel

[muted lantern]

So basically zaza is horsey

[dreamy onyx]

the man injected silk into himself

[twilit crest]

zaza is a very supportive horse

[glacial warren]

In fact we never get to actually see what a Conductor looked like. The closest we get is if you face the Unravelled.

[limpid summit]

I hope Silksong has more gigantic bugs like Bardoon

[dreamy onyx]

they weren't going back at all after they ditched Pharloom

[glacial warren]

The body horror was likely just that bad.

[muted lantern]

Zazas needolin dialogue when hes leading hornet to lost garmond is so heartbreaking. he calls hornet red hunter friend, hes seeking out the only other friend he knows to save his best friend.

[gentle aspen]

man it sure would be nice if we got to see any returning weavers

[twilit crest]

makes sense. what are the odds of a random pilgrim meeting their highest church leaders irl

[spark valve]

tc forgot about their sequel bait in the sequel

[dreamy onyx]

maybe in the DLC there could be some?

[limpid summit]

I don’t know why I got it in my head that Hornet Shakra Sherma and G+Z were going to be like a friend group

But I guess that was dumb

[gentle aspen]

I’d post a gif of speed trying not to laugh but I have an example to set

[glacial warren]

Ye. I mean still though from what little we glimpse of the Conductors between Ballador and the Unravelled, the sheer body horror of their existence must not be gentle on the eyes.

[muted lantern]

I want hornet to adopt zaza

new dog

[gentle aspen]

She already has Eira

The best one

[muted lantern]

You can have more than one dog

[limpid summit]

As far as DLC interactions I think postgame will have Hornet riding Zaza and a fight alongside Seth

[glacial warren]

You have an entire caravan of Flea pups.

[gentle aspen]

yeah but why would you get another one when you have a clear best and favorite child

[muted lantern]

Maybe zaza could be laces pet

[limpid summit]

What do you guys think of Seth’s story being finished

[twilit crest]

self inflicted. they aspired to godhood and ignored their own monstrous actions

[spark valve]

never cook again

[dreamy onyx]

good for him

[marble oasis]

Shakra, go right! Garmond, go left! And Zaza… you be Zaza! Okay, Silksquad, on 3! 3.. 2.. (Zaza already ran off at 3)

[limpid summit]

Is it unfair to the character to expect more Seth content

[limpid summit]

Bro literally this

[dreamy onyx]

he spent ages fighting for Nyleth and now he can chill

[twilit crest]

idk why they cooking u for this. ts sounds very fun

[gentle aspen]

I mean it’s just rushed with all the rest of the act 3 stuff

[limpid summit]

Wait wait guys not literally st the same time

[gentle aspen]

its whatever

[spark valve]

the seth rewrites suck so bad

[glacial warren]

I mean. Ballador made it clear he wasn’t quite expecting becoming a Conductor meant, well. Being treated to the Surgeons’ lovely hospitality in the Whiteward.

[gentle aspen]

that’s not his problem with being a conductor

[limpid summit]

Let it serve as marker of a friendship I feel has only just begun.

I just feel like this is a crazy platitude if he’s never going to do anything ever again

[spark valve]

that's really not what he's talking about there

[twilit crest]

yeah but how many generations of conductors have come and gone before someone had to say "hmm something is wrong here"

[gentle aspen]

his problem was its actual purpose and the toll of actually ruling over pharloom

[muted lantern]

They probably don't wanna do too much more with him without the input of the real seth. Since it's his character i imagine they worry about making any further narrative choices.

[dreamy onyx]

maybe he explores Pharloom Bay if you beat him in the Flea Minigames

[limpid summit]

Maybe

[twilit crest]

at least weavers had some level of self reflection/regret. conductors died doing what they loved, fucking pilgrims in the head

[limpid summit]

How would you make Seth better tammo

What would you add

[glacial warren]

I mean. Still a lot of them were likely bitter and miserable over their constant agony that was their lives after the Surgeons were done with them.

[limpid summit]

Sorry not in a condescending way

[gentle aspen]

not really

[limpid summit]

I don’t think that tone carried

[covert night]

didnt know seth got rewritten

[gentle aspen]

they all died wanting the kid they groomed into becoming their mom killer

[spark valve]

just come up with any pretense for why he's there

[limpid summit]

“The voice” was probably not meant to be Nyleth initially

[twilit crest]

the diasporic flight is absolutely an indication of some small modicum of regret.

[limpid summit]

Cause the old hearts were vastly different

[twilit crest]

the rebellion even more so

[dreamy onyx]

there could be weavers still alive

[limpid summit]

There were the weird Phantom like symbols (“organ sleepers”)

[twilit crest]

and hornet's prophecy all the more

[gentle aspen]

if you look at the original riddles they had stuff about the voice and protecting a long kept secret and Nyleth does not fill that void in the slightest

[muted lantern]

Herrah seemed like the only weaver that really broke the cycle of abuse. Even then the deepnest weavers helped with the vessel plan.

[limpid summit]

Nyleth isn’t even a long kept secret

[spark valve]

seth used to be protecting a secret at the base of the citadel
now he just murders citadel bugs trying to go to the shrine they built to pay respects to nyleth because that's his job

[limpid summit]

First of all you can get hints about her from like

Sister Splinter

[twilit crest]

weavers wanted to address the root cause of the problem with pharloom, conductors wanted to exploit it. there is a difference in attitudes among them

[gentle aspen]

that was them running from GMS that doesn’t indicate any regret from them

[dreamy onyx]

likely because they're haunted i assume

[limpid summit]

To be fair

[spark valve]

no, he kills anyone no matter what

[gentle aspen]

and those were also two entirely different groups

[glacial warren]

This is confirmed in Hollow Knight if you went out of your way to get the Weaversong Charm in Deepnest. You get a very brief glimpse of an intact Weaver before it scuttles off out of the doorway.

[limpid summit]

I think it makes sense to say the shrine was of Weaver make and the Conductors tried to dismantle it once they got power trippy

[gentle aspen]

yeah, probably not

[limpid summit]

So all the Citadel corpses aren’t worshippers

It’s still a copout for sure

[twilit crest]

running away from a problem you caused isnt a sign of regret? since when

[muted lantern]

I like to think the last deepnest weaver somehow survived

[gentle aspen]

That’s not how the timeline worked

[twilit crest]

still weaverkin

[covert night]

yea they messed up some parts when rewriting

[gentle aspen]

Some weavers stayed to seal GMS
others decided to leave

there still isn’t anything there with them regretting their actions

[glacial warren]

Yeah I think more Weavers survived, they just. Had to get out of dodge once they realized Hallownest was imploding under the Infection.

[dreamy onyx]

i thought they sealed her and then they all fled

or at least most of them

[twilit crest]

that fits with my statement of weavers having some modicum of regret about starting the church.

if they didnt care they wouldnt have left

[spark valve]

no

[gentle aspen]

that isn’t a matter of regret they left out of FEAR of their mother

[twilit crest]

if they didnt regret they wouldve attempted to start another sect in another kingdom or something.

[spark valve]

weavers were living under gms's rule and didn't like it, some weavers decided 'hey let's kill her' some said 'hey let's trap her' some said 'guys the door is right here' and ran away before any other plans happened

[dreamy onyx]

was it fear that she'd eventually wake up

[muted lantern]

Well we know some weavers stayed long enough to get mummified there. It seems like multiple groups were a thing, like some fled early, some fled later, some stayed

[glacial warren]

‘Mother’ in heavy airquotes since the Weavers aren’t descendants of Silk directly.

[gentle aspen]

again, those aren’t the same groups

[twilit crest]

but all the evidence on hand suggests some weavers just didnt want part in the debacle at all

[spark valve]

no they believed she would never wake up

[twilit crest]

or rather, wanted to plan the long game to end the entire fiasco

[gentle aspen]

It doesn’t need to be in air quotes because motherhood isn’t something limited to blood

[spark valve]

there was only one exit the ones who stayed and founded the citadel died out

[twilit crest]

which is also a strong indicator of regretful attitudes

[dreamy onyx]

this makes sense actually

[twilit crest]

taking action to solve a problem you caused, problem being the citadel and cause being their founding of the church, is itself a sign of regret

[dreamy onyx]

except Karn what the fuck was she doing

Cindril and Atla were trying to find solutions

[muted lantern]

Did the cyndril weavers all go to deepnest or split up?

[gentle aspen]

they didn’t take any action to solve a problem though?

[dreamy onyx]

I assume Askar (mount fay weaver) was also responsible for the citadel in some way

[muted lantern]

or whichever nest was the runners

[limpid summit]

Bum Weavenest

[gentle aspen]

They just left the area

[dreamy onyx]

they went anywhere they could

[spark valve]

split up the nest has a map showing many routes out and weaver descendants were found in a few places

[gentle aspen]

potential weavenest

[limpid summit]

The Weavers didn’t put any mechanisms in place to protect the Citadel workers or other groups

[twilit crest]

they didnt place all those crests with messages for a future weaver to end the church?

[dreamy onyx]

i wonder what caused Widow to become mutilated though

[muted lantern]

It would've been kinda peak if it was weavnest herrah instead of cyndril.

[pale narwhal]

also i doubt hallownest is the only place weavers fled to.
there's probably some weavers alive in other kingdoms

[limpid summit]

0 tools
0 runes
7 worms

[limpid summit]

Actually when do you guys think it happened

It would have had to be pre citadel right

[glacial warren]

Ye. They fanned out to lands far and wide.

[twilit crest]

iirc it was fellow weavers

[spark valve]

there probably aren't any alive out there given that all the cradle texts say last of the line and it's like quarter weavers already dying

[limpid summit]

Or is the other first slab prisoner Widow

[dreamy onyx]

i thought it was post citadel, maybe a cindril weaver that didn't flee at the end and got punished for attempting it

[gentle aspen]

I don’t particularly see merit in assuming other weavers are alive and the cradle is literally going after weavers in quarter part and in eighth part

[twilit crest]

if there are weavers left theyre evidently hiding very well

[glacial warren]

Well there is a lore scroll in the Slab stating that there was a prisoner who committed an ‘unidentified sin’ and was punished via ‘casting’.

[pale narwhal]

actually that could reconcile smth from the first game
the weaver charm states that the weavers departed for their old home but there's no evidence of that in silksong
what if rhey just went bavk to check that map from the weavenest and leave in a dofferent direction to find their sisters

[spark valve]

it could have been pre or during weaver reign

[muted lantern]

Are there any part weavers left? we see a lot of last of their lines

[dreamy onyx]

not that we know of

aside from Hornet Widow and FS

[pale narwhal]

i mean if they get murdered before having kids then they're the last of their line even if their aunts are alive

[spark valve]

if the aunts were alive they'd be getting kidnapped too

[twilit crest]

first sinner is dead when we fight her

[dreamy onyx]

is she dead or just in a weird quasi-state

[twilit crest]

dead or just in stasis

[pale narwhal]

not if theyre in a different kingdom

[twilit crest]

fueled by her hatred/anger

[limpid summit]

But how the hell did she even survive

It was totally Weavers

[spark valve]

why would she not survive

[twilit crest]

we see evidence that the church sent bugs to retrieve weaverkin from all sorts of kingdoms.

[pale narwhal]

i mean the fact that citadel bugs are still going out says to me that more weavers are still out there to be captured

[limpid summit]

I guess there’s no reason for her not to

But she was mutilated and manic

What was she doing all this time

[dreamy onyx]

there's probably a few out there who are still on the hunt while we play the game

[twilit crest]

the amount of weaverkin left is an unknown to us at present. it logically must be a low number, but probably not 0

[dreamy onyx]

do you think they just regain their sentience when GMS is dead and are like, wait what the fuck are we doing

[twilit crest]

depends on how dlc story turns out i guess

[gentle aspen]

Geeked off the silk

[muted lantern]

when was phantom and lace first made anyway? at the start of the haunting?

[limpid summit]

Who knows

[gentle aspen]

At some nebulous point in time while gms was asleep

[muted lantern]

We know its after the weavers left/betrayed her, because of the silk heart dialogue

[limpid summit]

I believe that Phantom was made during Weaver times and sentenced to exhaust organ

[dreamy onyx]

i assume gms bound enough weavers to her to have the lucidity to even manipulate the silk

[twilit crest]

given the subtext i think its fair to assume it will take generations to fully cure pharlids of the haunting

[limpid summit]

While Lace popped out during Conductor times and she’s less frayed because GMS was more deliberate in her creation

[pale narwhal]

i reckon that at that distance it's not so much a direct connection but imprinted commands. might take some time for the silk in their bodies to run dry

[limpid summit]

But that’s just my hc sort of theory

[twilit crest]

but we dont really know what happened to gms' silk post mortem.

[dreamy onyx]

how tho
aren't they going to stop being haunted immediately once the threads are literally cut

they'll have silk but thats it

[muted lantern]

we know the threads projected from her cocoon retracted, but otherwise it probably lingers

[twilit crest]

that depends on where the story goes. lace is still alive and she's fully functional

[dreamy onyx]

lace wasn't haunted though

[limpid summit]

GMS doesn’t even sound like she knows Phantom exists and people say “oh she’s just a tiger mom that abandons her kids at will” but like we never get the idea that she got bored of the Weavers during her original rule

[twilit crest]

if gms silk were to go inert when she dies, lace would probably drop dead too

[limpid summit]

She just doesn’t like them after they sealed her because they sealed her

Imo Phantom popped out in her sleep and GMS might not even know of her existence

[dreamy onyx]

i dont think silk is completely dead, hornet and other weaverkin can likely still spin it from soul

[muted lantern]

Void haunting defo is not surviveable if you arent a pale being like lace but for regular haunting since not all act 3 enemies are haunted could any of them recover? would they suffer from any physical or mental disabilities after the fact?

[dreamy onyx]

it just wont literally be overflowing

[twilit crest]

its simply unknown. we dont see all of five minutes of pharloom post gms death

[limpid summit]

Probably yeah

Pavo talks about hearing a ton of voices and his mind being strained and stuff

I imagine being haunted for an extended period of time would just leave you a shell of yourself

[muted lantern]

I have a long theory as to what the differences between lace and phantom are in how gms made them and why phantom was discarded but it would take me long as hell to type it out, i could search my message history for it tho

[twilit crest]

my hope is that we get some kind of conflict with another kingdom who comes to pharloom in the wake of gms/citadel's failure

always bet on city of steel buy your stocks now

[limpid summit]

Yeah find it I’d love to read it

My hope for whatever Steel DLC we get is this

Hallownest was about descending Pharloom is about ascending

[muted lantern]

@limpid summit

[limpid summit]

I’m not saying it should just be long rooms

But to go deeper and deeper horizontally into a steel sanctum would be super neat

[limpid summit]

This is actually really interesting

I like it

[twilit crest]

this adds weight to my interpretation that lace is capable of aging but i wont start that shi rn

great theory whoever wrote

[limpid summit]

I don’t know how lace saying “she spun US to fade” factors in though

Or

I guess you could say that might be phantom but either way it affirms the idea that Lace fades

[spark valve]

lace will definitely fade if neglected

[limpid summit]

God I just wish the game itself didn’t treat phantom like a nonexistent entity

[twilit crest]

i guess it all depends on if you believe gms to be fallible

[spark valve]

hornet calls her a fragile form of life

[limpid summit]

They went too deep with the metaphor

[twilit crest]

which the game does not seem to agree to

[muted lantern]

oh i was copying my own message lol

ty

[limpid summit]

Higher Being that attacks you with big rocks from the sky

[twilit crest]

well you cooked

[gentle aspen]

probably something like that
I don’t think lace’d age in the same way though

[spark valve]

A bug born entirely of thread. Much Silk would have been needed to see her sustained. A fragile form of life, but life nonetheless.

[gentle aspen]

weakening and dying

[muted lantern]

Honestly i really want to write a fanfic about phantom surviving and making a deal with the grimm troupe for immortality.

[spark valve]

lace would still probably weaken and die

[gentle aspen]

like she can’t just eat food and sustain herself she’d need a silk source

[gentle aspen]

I wonder if she dies faster after we beat her second fight

[limpid summit]

Okay wait

And

[twilit crest]

i imagine a continuation of the true ending where lace now has to face the threat of mortality without gms keeping her perpetually powered

[muted lantern]

My thought is that the reason lace was made to be stuck as a kid was to prevent her from fading like phantom.

[limpid summit]

I’m going to have to wait for the eventual Grimm troupe DLC to do something with this

[gentle aspen]

well that’s probably not the case
She was made a kid because that’s what gms wants
children always at her beck and call

[spark valve]

the fading isn't the same as aging in that sense

[limpid summit]

But I feel like the heart symbolism with the old hearts goes beyond literal hearts being representative of like the lynchpin of the land

Especially because the heart sacrifice leads you into the nightmare realm

[pale narwhal]

if hornet awakens any further divine power she could be that source

[spark valve]

lace could 'age' in that her silk could get old and drained but that's not growing up it's different senses of the word 'age'

[twilit crest]

my belief is that gms failed in this endeavor

[muted lantern]

im talking in reference to the larger theory i posted above. That phantom faded even in gms's care.

[gentle aspen]

I mean she can already be a source

[twilit crest]

i guess that just depends on how we use the word "aging"

[gentle aspen]

and regardless the primordial source of silk for some reason couldn’t supply enough for phantom

[spark valve]

she calls herself forgotten and discarded it doesn't sound like care was happening at least not for a long time

[muted lantern]

My theory is that they were discarded because they began to fade. that phantom both needed silk to be sustained but also they aged naturally and withered.

[pale narwhal]

not sustainably or reliably. as she is at the end of the game she'd basically need to be perpetually well rested

[muted lantern]

and lace was made to correct that issue

[twilit crest]

it sounds like gms was chasing perpetuity and failed

[spark valve]

it's also not like phantom was incapable of adding new silk to refresh since she did that using the empty spools in exhaust organ

[twilit crest]

makes me wonder if phantom was perhaps frustrated with their quickening degredation

[spark valve]

aging naturally I agree could be why phantom was rejected that just seems like a different thing

not related to the upkeep to stay alive

[twilit crest]

adds weight to the idea that phantom was speaking to lace in the needolin dialogue

perhaps phantom was in some kind of silksong-equivalent terminal situation

[spark valve]

it's completely possible that phantom was discarded because she wouldn't be a child forever in the ways lace is

[twilit crest]

in phantom of the opera, Erik is scarred and mentally unwell, citing these to be the reasons he was outcasted. what if theres something similar going on with skong phantom

[muted lantern]

Im referring to it as two different things. I think the fading is part of aging but the needing to be sustained with silk is a separate thing, mainly because of laces needolin dialogue where shes begging gms not to discard her too saying "i will not fade" implying to me fading was a reason to be discarded rather than a result of it. To be more concise: phantom aged naturally and would die of natural causes, but also needed silk to survive at all. Lace was made to circumvent the first problem while maintaining the dependance on her caused by the need for silk.

[twilit crest]

something something subtext about how parents discard children who are handicapped or otherwise "imperfect" (and project that perfection onto the next kid)

[spark valve]

I mean lace sure thinks there’s a risk of fading with the exhaust organ text and a path to not fading would be loyalty to GMS to earn her silk

[muted lantern]

Its the fact that i will not fade is thrown in with a bunch of arguments as to why she shouldn't be discarded that gets me

[spark valve]

they're related

getting discarded would mean fading and she really doesn't want that

[muted lantern]

Yeah but the way its worded implies shes saying i will not fade as a reason not to throw her away, as if fading at all is a reason to be tossed out like phantom.

[spark valve]

she's also got a weird inferiority thing with hornet where she thinks hornet is the daughter gms would actually want and killing hornet would kind of stop her fading which is also connected to other dnd she has in the fight

[gentle aspen]

the wording doesn’t really imply that but it’s a manner of interpretation atp

[spark valve]

she sort of sees it as a performance for gms as to why she's worthy during the fight

[gentle aspen]

It’s a defiant statement iml

[spark valve]

her needolin dialogue?

the needolin text is still trying to appease gms

[muted lantern]

See me cut! See me serve! I will not fade! I will not take! These two needolin lines read to me as lace giving reasons why gms shouldnt discard her

[spark valve]

because she's gonna kill hornet and prove herself the better daughter and that she's not actually too broken and allat

[muted lantern]

Basically what im saying is both silk kids will die without silk, but phantom even with silk still faded from age. and thats why they were discarded.

[spark valve]

new silk would stop her silk from aging

silk stretched thin

like that's why they need silk

to prevent that

[muted lantern]

What im saying is the silk stretching thin from neglect and the silk fading from time are two separate things.

[spark valve]

the neglect is not getting silk so her silk gets overdrawn and its soul depleted making it grey

getting new silk would stop that happening

it's also possible gms didn't actually discard phantom any more than she did lace they're just taking different approaches

phantom decided to cast her lot with the conductors or whoever and work for them lace is trying to get attention

and gms was just asleep at the time

[muted lantern]

If the silk fading is only a result of no new silk from gms, why would lace be saying she wont fade as a manner to appease gms. It still comes of to me as lace talking like fading is a reason to be discarded rather than a result of it. not to say they don't need silk to surivive but that there is two separate processes here.

[spark valve]

because she's saying she'll be the perfect daughter

so she will play that role

it's also lace's own fears working their way into things because she really really really doesn't want that to happen

her own insecurities are interweaved with the declarations to gms

[muted lantern]

Im not sure if im communicating what im trying to say properly. The fact that "I will not fade! I will not take!" and "see me cut! see me serve!" are both phrased the same way unlike the other needolin lines implies they are both reasons in favor of not discarding her.

[spark valve]

yeah but that's also connected to what's happening right now which is killing hornet to stake her spot

she kills hornet and she doesn't fade

what exactly do you think happens to them when they don't get enough silk

and do you not think the abundance of empty spools in exhaust organ is meant to indicate that her condition is due to running out

[muted lantern]

Their silk stretches thin, they fade, they die. Im not saying they don't fade without silk. just that phantom faded anyway even with silk because they aged. and thats why they were discarded.

[spark valve]

ok so why are all the spools empty

what's that there to signify

[muted lantern]

To try to keep them alive? i never argued against that lol

[spark valve]

why is a point being made to show that she ran out of silk

do you not think it makes sense to conclude that that has anything to do with her condition

[muted lantern]

I think you might have misread my message above. i just said they fade and die without silk

maybe i mistyped

[spark valve]

the presence of the spools imply that phantom used to have silk but now doesn't

do you see how that leads to her current condition

[muted lantern]

I never disagreed with that?

im very confused at the angle you are arguing

[spark valve]

you're arguing that she was fading with it

[twilit crest]

damn tammo is still arguing

its been like 30 mins

[spark valve]

lace also sees herself as in basically the same predicament as phantom

"She spun us to fade...
She spun us to break...
Why us, sister?
Why us?"

why would lace actually be immune to this fading but not that fading

when there's only really one fading phenomenon shown

[muted lantern]

Im arguing, essentially. That phantom aged naturally, which caused them to fade even with a steady supply of silk. Without silk, that process is even more quick and catastrophic. That they were discarded at the first sign they wouldn't last forever. And lace was created so that she wouldn't have the same problem of dying of old age, while still maintaining the dependance on gms's silk.

[spark valve]

that would make this dialogue immensely strange if lace was made specifically not to fade in the way phantom is

she spun us to fade

[muted lantern]

Thats a solid point actually

Id still argue that phantom aged naturally, and thats why they were discarded. But maybe fading isnt the term to equate with that process.

[twilit crest]

why cant we use fading/aging interchangably?

they have the same end result

[spark valve]

I agree that it's possible phantom had some perceived flaw compared to lace and that that was related to aging but I don't think it's the same as the fading she's experiencing in the exhaust organ

maybe she isn't an eternal child like lace or something and so wasn't favored

but the exhaust organ needolin stuff as well as lace's cradle dialogue and journal entry all seem to align with phantom's fading being caused by lack of silk

[muted lantern]

I mean one is dying from the natural passage of time, mortality essentially, the other is dying starved of a life source, so there is a distinction

[twilit crest]

shrue

[muted lantern]

The phrasing always confused me a bit, she spun us to fade implies its saying that they were always planned to fade. But its probably more likely its speaking to how they were made to be reliant on silk so that they were designed to fade without her care, thus they couldn't leave her.

[spark valve]

lace is very resentful of her fragile existence, I don't think that's literally a question about gms's motives so much as it her bemoaning the situation

[muted lantern]

The way its said to me just implies shes saying they were always intended to fade.

[spark valve]

she's saying 'why did she make us if this was going to happen' that doesn't mean it was the intent

it's literally asking "why was I born only to die"

[muted lantern]

hmmm

i do like my reading better, but yours makes sense too

If phantom does age unlike lace, would it be possible they would die of old age?

even with silk

[spark valve]

I doubt it

they aren't biological or anything

[muted lantern]

So then was lace just made the way she was as a means of control, to keep her emotionally dependant on top of being silk dependant. Or just because gms wanted a kid that could never outgrow her. Maybe a mix of both. It certainly would speak more to gms being a terrible mother.

[spark valve]

probably a bit of both imo

[heavy gyro]

"one who welcomed a decisive end in combat over a slow decline." implies phantom can die from old age

[muted lantern]

well thats likely more from lack of silk

[heavy gyro]

Well yeah

[muted lantern]

I still think it would be interesting if phantoms flaw was that they could die from old age though it would add another layer onto why lace was designed the way she was on top of the other reasons above. the "she spun us to fade" line that tammo pointed out does throw a wrench into that. Id have to ponder if theres any way the theory would still work within that, as of now the only possibility is that gms designed lace to avoid it and somehow failed, which could be kind implied with lace being so worried about it in the needolin dialogue. But thats a pretty loose and feels it takes too many leaps in logic for my liking atp.

[twilit crest]

Not to mention my aforementioned point about phantom’s design inspo still holds up, especially in this interpretation

[muted lantern]

I missed that can you forward it?

Nvm i found it, i think its an interesting connection!

[twilit crest]

Oh I’m late rip

[muted lantern]

I need to watch phantom of the opera again, i remember watching it as a kid and thinking it was cool but i remember so little

i think there was a showing of the play on tv a long time ago that is how i saw it

[twilit crest]

My high school did 3 full productions of it two years in a row. More than enough to have it branded into my skull

[twilit crest]

Some ppl in hk lore don’t think this room is a nursery. What are your thoughts?

[muted lantern]

Is this the room where the shade music box sound plays?

[twilit crest]

I think so

[muted lantern]

Yeah I think it's a nursery.

[twilit crest]

Thank you I thought I was going fucking crazy 😭

[muted lantern]

Umm, strange note, i think it's meant to be white lady but does the shadow on the chair kinda look like the lord of shades or am I high

[twilit crest]

You might be high

[muted lantern]

Just checked yeah I'm seeing things

Tho it doesn't really look like wl either

The other day someone in sk help tried to argue that the shade that saves hornet in sotv is thk not the knight...

[edgy nebula]

this is a nursery but it's weird

[edgy nebula]

i headcanon tk died to the first vengefly in kings pass and saved hornet cause they were bored

[carmine magnet]

I don't see what else this could've been used for

[muted lantern]

Tk died to zote the mighty after he expertly slew them in the colleseum using his greyroot powers

[edgy nebula]

maybe it's a birdbath but for the monarchflies

[muted lantern]

Ik white lady is complicit in the vessel plan but I feel bad for her.

[edgy nebula]

she seems content despite her bindings and part to play in it all

part of me hopes she does get freed one day but thatd probably be for the worse

[muted lantern]

Her whole story is sad. It seems like she really wanted to be a mom like herrah, and had to watch her own children be sacrificed. Her binding herself away seems like guilt for the part she played.

[twilit crest]

That’s what I’m saying lol like how is this anything else

[twilit crest]

I’m glad I’m not the only one

[twilit crest]

People argue just for the love of the game man I swear

[warped plank]

Would it make sense for a weaver to be carrying a bag for travelling? Or do they carry their stuff in some other way? Or do they just not carry stuff?

[edgy nebula]

if a weaver carried tools like hornet does then yeah theyd probably travel with a bag or something to hold stuff in

hornet has pockets sewn into her cloak for example

[warped plank]

Ah ok makes sense!

Thank you!

[stray fog]

Also phantom plays music, plus, music is a main theme of the game
Opera is music

This connection might be weak af though

[muted lantern]

Weavers with hornets style of red cloaks like the deepnest ones probably also have cloak pockets. However the pharloom weavers if they wore dresses like first sinner they probably made some sort of bag or backpack with silk

[twilit crest]

I can see it fitting. Think about the other opera references. Karmelita, Garmond and zaza, conductors, lace, it’s something for sure.

[warped plank]

The one i'm making (it's an oc for a HK D&D campaign) is from Hallownest. I was thinking of her having like a sachel under her cloak

Would cloak pockets make more sense?

[muted lantern]

that works, we know hornet uses a tool pouch

alongside her cloak

[warped plank]

Ok

[muted lantern]

so clearly one fits there

[warped plank]

Thank you!

[rugged kiln]

sorry about replying to this message specifically

but i saw it while scrolling down and

I am pretty sure that is the white lady

[muted lantern]

Probably, it just doesnt look like how she looks when we meet her, could have been how she used to look

[rugged kiln]

it was a more youthful white lady most likely

i think that room is either 1. hornets room, or 2. white ladys room

[stray fog]

True

[rugged kiln]

I believe it is the white ladys room because of the crib in front of the chair

[cunning carbon]

They carry it in those dumb, round fuckass masks they wear

Fr, why did GMS make the weavers masks big volleyballs, those could NOT be comfortable

[muted lantern]

First sinner uses her mask as a punch bowl

[cunning carbon]

Instead of “our strength, our rage” she says “||BLGGGGULGGGGGGULGGGGGGULGGGG||”

[warped plank]

I thought the masks were a part of their biology

Like it can come off (widow), but it's not supposed to

[muted lantern]

They are in weavers case

[warped plank]

Ok

[cunning carbon]

No they can be removed. It’s painful and a mask is a part of a bugs personality as the mask makers have said but you can take it off.

[warped plank]

Ah ok

[cunning carbon]

Styx has multiple personality disorder supposedly as he keeps multiple masks in his loft

He asks himself who he is

[warped plank]

And also speaking of first sinner, is it healthy to have your mask a fruit punch bowl?

[craggy smelt]

Weaver masks are removable, though... they might still be part of their biology
who can tell in holloworld, masks are weird...

[warped plank]

Yep

[graceful grail]

For all those who were for some reason saying Greyroot is a Worm. Hornet clearly says its roots.

[muted lantern]

Who on gods green earth thought greyroot was a worm

[graceful grail]

They were annoying AH

Greyroot is clearly the same creature as White Lady

But… Bad…

[muted lantern]

The grey lady

[crimson patio]

Sometimes masks and faces are just
Used interchangeably, making it hard to tell if it’s a natural face or a mask

~~ Still gonna die on the “Hornet’s face is just her head and not a mask” hill tho ~~

[graceful grail]

Hornet is a natural mask, mask maker says so

[crimson patio]

Mask maker dialogues with Hornet is one of those instances where face and masks are near indistinguishable in their wording

Face in one place, mask in another

Which one is it maskmaker choose your struggle

[graceful grail]

Yes, because for hornet they are the same. One sec

[stray fog]

She has horns like herrah, so it is probably a natural face

She inherited her horns

[crimson patio]

Ok but what is the difference between natural mask and “just a head”

Karmelita just have a head

Why can’t Hornet also not have just a head

[stray fog]

Ask tc

Do ants have exoskeletons

[crimson patio]

All insects do

[graceful grail]

Groveler has a not natural mask

Pouncer has no mask

Hornfly has a natural mask

Cant you tell for these at least??

[stray fog]

I don't think there is a known answer

[crimson patio]

Doesn’t seem definitive to me

How do you know Hornfly has a natural mask?

What if that’s just how its head works

[graceful grail]

Because its encapsulated the whole head, unlike the groveler

[crimson patio]

Y know whose other mask encapsulates their whole head?

Styx

[graceful grail]

Yep

[crimson patio]

Those are removable too

[graceful grail]

Thats his nature

He changes identies

Read the needolin diologue

[crimson patio]

Imma

Present my reasoning for Hornet’s head is not a mask

Official artworks

[graceful grail]

Maskmaker reads hornets mask

[crimson patio]

The knight who has eye sockets visible
That is a mask

Hornet’s head has solid eyes
Unless she perpetually has black veils over her vision I don’t see the mask argument

[graceful grail]

Read the message above

[crimson patio]

I also said before that in maskmaker dialogues with Hornet mask and faces are used interchangeably, making it confusing

[graceful grail]

They are the same for her

[dawn gyro]

what if the knights mask only has visible eye sockets because its... hollow

[crimson patio]

Yes it’s like that’s the point of a mask

It’s a hollow shell to cover what’s underneath it

[dawn gyro]

like the eyes of hornet could just be seamless with her mask

[graceful grail]

No, masks arent only for vessels

[crimson patio]

Not saying it’s only for vessels

When you put masks on other bugs their eyes are underneath it

Not bulging out of it

[graceful grail]

So

[crimson patio]

Not one with it

Hornet’s face is a face
It’s seamless and with integrated eyes

[graceful grail]

I dont get your point

[dawn gyro]

what im saying is that the knights mask has basically nothing inside and thats why you can see sockets, the inside is filled with nothing but void

hornets mask has stuff inside and the eyes come out to be seamless with the mask

point is that hornet has actual tangible eyes and the knight doesnt

hence the knights eye sockets insides being visible

its also how other bugs have masks but not visible insides of eye sockets

because theres actual eyes

[graceful grail]

I like how they are comparing their mask argument with the single most unique bug in universe

[crimson patio]

Quick visualization of my point

[graceful grail]

Do uou see any bugs with puples?? No, its an art choice.

Also, hornet clearly says she has a mask, and mask maker says she has a mask both here

Read

[crimson patio]

Ok but official detailed art of Hornet clearly show her with solid eyes on the mask tho

It’s undeniable for her

[dawn gyro]

a bugs mask is kinda like a skull in my thinking, because exoskeleton type stuff

[crimson patio]

Stop sending that I already read all of maskmaker’s dialogues
That’s why I’m saying their usage of face and mask interchangeably makes it not considerable

[dawn gyro]

and not all bugs irl need a "skull" either

[graceful grail]

You can be delusional if you want, I’m done with this argument. Im just gonna have fun here

Playing silksong

[crimson patio]

All insects irl have exoskeletons, though

[cunning carbon]

Hont slk snog

[graceful grail]

Why dont you argue why nobody’s invented Pants or sleeves yet, anything but this dumb mask debate

[cunning carbon]

Gud crcter

[crimson patio]

I thought ur done with it, go play your Silksong

[dawn gyro]

yea but im saying a mask is a piece of exoskeleton thats been made harder than the rest of the exoskeleton

basically a skull

[cunning carbon]

The first person the think about inventing pants was kratt, but then he realized he couldn’t look up hornets cloak if he invented them, with sorrow in his heart, he burned the prototype pants

[dawn gyro]

for sleeves I think thats just because most bugs have such thin arms they dont need theem, plus cloaks/ponchos already kindof get the job done for covering up arms

as for pants its a similar case

[cunning carbon]

If they got the job done on their own, Hornet wouldn’t freeze on mount fae wiithout the coat upgrade

[dawn gyro]

the coat has a bunch of fluff inside it so sleeves wouldnt solve that

[cunning carbon]

What if two layers of sleeve.

Or even 3

[dawn gyro]

I also think its a matter of fashion

plus theres nothing really in mount fay that is useful for the common bug so theres not really any point in living there and thus inventing sleeves

as for mask maker being there; he has a fluffy blanket thing on him that likely keeps him warm, plus he doesnt seem to have sewing implements or the skills necessary to make sleeves

not to mention his body is probably accustomed specifically to the cold

therefore sleeves are not invented for a lack of need

and of course pants for similar reasons

[whole holly]

guys i have hypothesis/theory about memories/dreams

Seer says they are same and refer to them in same context basically

main difference is way we access them

[dreamy onyx]

i dont think they're the same are they?
pilgrims don't have masks, but a bug like hornet does

[whole holly]

but Memories in Silksong give insight about why Radiance didn't want to be forgotten

[whole holly]

Lost Verdania implies that memories can fade and be lost eventually, and Hornet has to recollect the memories in memory orbs, similar to dream roots we find in hallownest, but what is interesting is what can happen to beings if they are forgotten, they become a myth and no one knows if Palestag really existed: "Myth made real in memory. The creature seemed completely at one with the flora around it. Did it ever truly exist as I have seen it?" maybe similar thing could have happened to radiance because memories if not actively remembered can be lost to time and forgetting is exactly what it implies

if Radiance didn't survive thanks to hush whispers to faith she would have been lost, Palestag survived as a myth, but Green Prince's vague recollection was able to preserve form of Palestag we aren't sure is real, maybe Palestag was Pale Being that was forgotten

this is speculation with some evidence and mostly implications but it might shine light on what Radiance being forgotten meant, and mothkin's importance of preserving dreams, essence and memories

Essence can exist without character being able to see it

[craggy smelt]

Seer does have a few things to say about forgotten dreams

A dream is endless, but a Kingdom is not.
Hold something in your mind and it lives on with you, but forget it and you seal it away forever. That is the only death that matters.

Seer thinks dreams are eternal, but if they are forgotten they are 'sealed away'
this was probably what Radiance was at risk of suffering
not necessarily truly destroyed or killed, but something like a 'fate worse than death' for a being that exists in dreams

[whole holly]

forgotten dreams and lost memories are pretty much analogous and accessing/recollecting them can become difficult, as in Lost Verdania and Forgotten Radiance context, although Radiance managed to survive, but Radiance statue could have played a part of preserving her memory, same way Nyleth's statue hold's memory of nyleth for some reason, and that could be why we can Dream Nail radiance's statue

[whole holly]

Pale King most likely intentionally did that, he might have underestimated her since she would have been forgotten and most likely powerless and he pulled Moths into his thrall, as Wyrms do and ruined cycle of radiance being worshiped and mothkin being sustained

it is Wyrm nature and likely with his foresight anticipated Radiance fading... as she did for some time

[whole holly]

maybe not exclusively for Dream Beings... possibly for Unn was well, her power waned when mosskin were infected, even though she was calling out to mosskin, they couldn't remember her voice or were too blinded by Radiance's Light

she as physical being is alive but she can't be attuned, her light is forgotten and so on

[cursive granite]

What is the lore behind the pin stuck in the 4th chorus's head before the fight?

is it from the pinsstress?

[whole holly]

most likely, yes

[cursive granite]

so the seamsstress and her were close?

[whole holly]

it was most likely seamstress... but they are part of same order

[cursive granite]

:0

I think they should make another game before everything happened or before the infection of hk and destruction of sk

[whole holly]

i think prequel about Ancient Civilization would be great and Ancient Higher Beings that existed then

[cursive granite]

not exactly sk but you know the 5 heros of hollownest like the white defender and isma? They should be the new bosses.

[whole holly]

i mean if hornet has memories of them they could be memory bosses

[cursive granite]

oh wait how about a new area called the base where many of the citidels supplies were stored like food and wepons.