sk-lore

[limpid summit]

Bell beast also has none but I think that’s gameplay so the beastling call is a distinct thing

Cause she has cut ndd

[whole holly]

what is it?

[limpid summit]

Uhh

!wiki bell beast

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Bell_Beast

Hollow Knight Wiki

Bell Beast

The Bell Beast is a main boss and NPC in Hollow Knight: Silksong. Her liberation allows Hornet to use her as transport across Pharloom.

Location

The Marrow, Bellways

​

Combat Values

Health

150

Damage Modifiers

1    1    1    1    1

Reward

Fast travel via Bellways
Silk Heart

Journal Kills

1

​

Miscellaneous

Gender

Female

Theme

Bell Beast

Singing

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/File:Bell_Beast_Sing.ogg

[low oracle]

Interesting. Fayhorn probably doesn't want the intrusion or it simply has nothing going on up there (the latter being a joke btw).
The Shadow Creeper isn't bound by silk strings, at least I'm pretty sure of that. It also has the "empty" dreamnail dialogue, hence it probably doesn't think in the same way as regular bugs.
Bardoons ability to read? @limpid summit ? If you meant being aware of the dreamnail, I think it simply has to do with powerscaling. His body is spread through Kingdoms edge and he is basically just gigantic compared to most bugs. He's even larger than the White Lady. Not that size matters too much, but he certainly isn't just "more aware".

[limpid summit]

I think there’s a few reasons why it was cut

Another is TC confirmed that the fight with bell beast is like you playing with her like a dog

That NDD doesn’t work with that

[limpid summit]

I mean it can’t be just size

But he is likely incredibly long lived as demonstrated by his size

Probably learned some tricks along the way

Snail Shaman as well

I think that’s probably the Soul Essence connection

He’s just very attuned to soul

[whole holly]

he can sense our nature at least

[limpid summit]

True

[prime mantle]

i fed bardoon until he was large enough to play human tennis with.

anyway it could just be that he feeds on something common and has a sturdy body that lets him get round with no complications. he's one of the older bugs so his constitution could account for that

[low oracle]

Yes, but it can't be "awareness" either. It likely simply is their status/rank in the categories of beings.
The categories work something like:

Bug: Regular bug
Beast: Non-sentient bug (excluding titles)
God: Beast/Bug of great strength, not limited to Higher Beings
[unnamed, please suggest something]: Lesser Beings with powers like those of Higher Beings
Semi-Higher Being: Beings with powers directly gained from Higher Beings, either through heritage or given directly
Higher Beings: Gods as humans would define them
Mr. Mushroom: A Team Cherry character, separate from the world of Hollow Knight. He doesn't fit the criteria for all other categories.

I'll make examples in another message.

[limpid summit]

I would discount God as a genuine classification

It’s just anything with resonance

Which is gameplay

[prime mantle]

i don't think beast is so clearly defined but generally yeah. then again it could just be a degorative when it's used against regular bugs

[limpid summit]

True

[prime mantle]

god is the iffiest definition because godseeker is basically the only person who uses the word god to refer to like, vengefly king. everyone else uses it like it means higher being

[frosty gate]

Actually, Higher Beings is even worse because its barely used in game

And Godseeker isn't the only one who uses God

[limpid summit]

Higher being is only used once to refer to an actual one

In Silksong

Higher caste is also used I guess

[frosty gate]

And in HK is not used either outside of the PK propaganda

[prime mantle]

the word higher is used all the time iirc? and pale basically stands for higher+ so im counting that

[rough ingot]

Yea

I mean

Divine was also used

[limpid summit]

You can be pale and not higher

[rough ingot]

Like lace could count as pale

[prime mantle]

hornet is REALLY iffy on whether she's higher or not imo

[rough ingot]

Knight could count as pale and same with Hornet

They’re known to have pale shells

[limpid summit]

In most cases higher is used to mean godlike in a higher thought sense

A tree of knowledge thing

Accept the beacon and become like gods

[rough ingot]

Yes

Higher seems to not be inheritable

[frosty gate]

She kinda is

[rough ingot]

Paleness seems to be able to be inherited

[limpid summit]

I don’t think Hornet is higher until Weaver Queen

[rough ingot]

Where she literally binds a god yes

[limpid summit]

I mean it doesn’t work

Vessels also do that

[whole holly]

so TRUE AppleEgg

[limpid summit]

They aren’t HBs

[rough ingot]

Not really

Well

The lord of shades could be argued as a higher being, the shade lord itself is heavily implied to be one but we don’t know for sure

[limpid summit]

Lord of shades is yeah

TK with Void Heart at any point is

[rough ingot]

Seems alright

And people would probably argue here but

I don’t need another huge argument

[prime mantle]

i think hornet is higher but like, there's kinds of tiers to it, hence weaver queen. call that shit powerscaling. unn is a higher being.

eva calls hornet boundless when she fills all the crests for example

[rough ingot]

Unn is barely a higher being

[limpid summit]

That’s just her Wyrm kind nature right

[prime mantle]

she still is one

[limpid summit]

She’s malleable

[rough ingot]

Unn is so weak even the godseeker can’t save her

[frosty gate]

Hornet is not a Higher Being / Basically God

[low oracle]

Bug: Quirrel, Shakra, Garmond, Cornifer

Beast: Savage Beastfly, Conchfly

God: All Bugs/Beast/Higher Beings in Godhome

Ancient Beings/Old Hearts: Bardoon, Snail Shamans, Seer, Mask Makers, The ancient civilisation

Semi-Higher Beings: Hornet, Grimm, Vessels, Lace, Phantom, Weavers

Higher Beings: White Lady, Nightmare King, Pale King, The Radiance, Grand Mother Silk, The Shade Lord

Mr Mushroom: Mr. Mushroom

Speculative:
Nyleth—Old Servant
The Lord of Shades—Semi-Higher Being
Nosk—Old Servant

Suggestions would be nice. Lists are not including all characters obviously.

[frosty gate]

But she is of a Higher Caste

[limpid summit]

Insanely powerful

[frosty gate]

Mask Maker refers to her as such

[limpid summit]

She’s on the same level as PV they’re in classes of their own

But not Higher

[prime mantle]

...wyrms are higher beings

[limpid summit]

That’s pale

[whole holly]

barely higher being created mosskin, greenpath, fog canyon, queen's gardens as well

[prime mantle]

i would call pv higher too tbh

[limpid summit]

Any reference to her nature of domination is referring to her being Pale

Not a HB

[rough ingot]

Mr mushroom could just be a higher being.:.

[limpid summit]

👀

[rough ingot]

Also does nobody know what the mushroom in fungal core

Is

[whole holly]

oh, god

[limpid summit]

Probably just an important mushroom

[rough ingot]

Hes the herald of ages

And uhh

[frosty gate]

Still a Higher Caste

[rough ingot]

Higher beings aren’t known for being great in combat

[limpid summit]

Lace is pale and not higher

[low oracle]

He doesn't play by their rules, and he is kind of special in his own way. So I don't want to state he would be the same as regular Higher Beings.

[rough ingot]

Sure we fight 2

[whole holly]

that is prolly mushroom higher being, or they and mr mushroom had biological children together

[frosty gate]

Bardoon and the like could be called Old Servants I guess

They're old enough to know more of the history than many bugs

[low oracle]

Idk why but at least you suggested something.

[limpid summit]

I would call the Bardoon tier Knowledgeable Beings

[frosty gate]

Old Servants since they all serve something

Except Doon

[limpid summit]

KBs if you will

[rough ingot]

Guys do you think higher beings are generally bad in combat since GMS in lore is rlly powerful.. but uhh

[limpid summit]

GMS is probably quite strong normally

[rough ingot]

She just uses her threads to tear the cradle down

[whole holly]

Old Ones, fits better, or Ancient Beings which is actual tier in HK Universe

[limpid summit]

She just woke up when we fight her

[rough ingot]

Not the sleepy argument again

She’s clearly able to puppet Pharloom in her sleep

[limpid summit]

She is sleepy

[frosty gate]

Can't be Old Ones since MM calls Hornet "Old One" already

[limpid summit]

“Witness our waking”

[rough ingot]

And send envoys out to look for Hornet

[limpid summit]

She hasn’t woken up

[rough ingot]

But uhh

[prime mantle]

i think you could probably technically be higher and weak seeing as they have completely different power levels? which would open questions about lace. and worse ones about eva

lace lives forever as long as gms supports her

[rough ingot]

Even absolute radiance just throws bullshit at us

[limpid summit]

Whiteward allows her to stir and do the Haunting

But she’s still not fully awake

[whole holly]

Ancient Beings are mentioned in Hollow Knight so that should be a tier

[whole holly]

i guess that's true

[limpid summit]

Nyleth and Isma are wandering seeds

[low oracle]

She says "come to our awakening". If you say she wasn't prepared, you are actively ignoring evidence that GMS was ready.
Have you thought about the fact that maybe GMS just isn't as strong in relativity to Hornet? Besides that, I find her a difficult fight.

[limpid summit]

Same tier as Weavers Shamans Moths, naturally powerful bug creatures

[prime mantle]

los is ancient. radiance is prolly ancient since she calls him ancient. nightmare heart might be ancient if he tore from the dream realm... that's about where the thread ends

[frosty gate]

Wyrms are Ancient too

Mr Mushroom

[low oracle]

They aren't really classifiable, so I put them next to old hearts.

[prime mantle]

oh right, yeah put pk in there. and maybe lord fool

[limpid summit]

Wyrms are probably all Higher

We know they all have foresight, and they all pull bugs into their thrall. Assumedly they have stuff like the Beacon

[frosty gate]

Wait what exactly are we Classifying here?

[frosty gate]

If you're basically a mythical creature reborn and you're not a God, idk wtf you're doing with you life

[prime mantle]

old hearts seem to be really powerful regular bugs. unless nyleth is higher which messes it all up but w/e

[limpid summit]

Nyleth is probably not higher

[frosty gate]

None of the Old Hearts are HBs

[low oracle]

Pale King is also ancient. We don't know how much time he spent in wyrm form. He could very well be saying "last and only eternal civilisation" because no kingdoms existed when he looked for a place to build his own.
He might also be the last wyrm, and wyrms make eternal kingdoms or something like that. Idk though, due to "Blackwyrm" (with a Y & W, unlike Voltvyrm)

[limpid summit]

She’s just an older Isma species who is farther along in making her ecosystem

[prime mantle]

he could be the last pale wyrm maybe

[whole holly]

Ancient Beings are mentioned in Hollow Knight, bugs with long lifespan, Bardoon, Fayforn, AC Bugs and Wyrms are Ancient Beings, i personally think not all wyrms are Higher or pale beings but they all are Ancient Beings

[limpid summit]

The last and only civilization is probably preparing for a future where that is the case

[low oracle]

The tiers of beings, based on how powerful they are basically. Yeah, some are more powerfull than others, but these are the classifications that make most sense.

[frosty gate]

He is likely the last Wyrm overall

[prime mantle]

well blackwyrm is presumably dead (in the colloseum?) so id assume so

[frosty gate]

Powerscaling?

[low oracle]

I think all wyrms are higher beings, not all being Pale Though.

[frosty gate]

https://tenor.com/view/maçavras1-gif-16101498646883457546

[limpid summit]

I would lean towards this as well

[halcyon merlin]

who wins

[low oracle]

Not really, rather classification of "species" (idk the name, maybe type or something).

[frosty gate]

We don't really know if that's the BW

[halcyon merlin]

hornet or gms lace and phantom

[frosty gate]

Hierarchy is the word i think you're looking for

[limpid summit]

I think beasts, bugs (from mundane to powerful), direct creations of Higher Beings, Higher Beings and Mister Mushroom are what we have

Not in that order necessarily

[low oracle]

While this is a theory, it would make sense. There isn't anything to discuss there though.

[whole holly]

how so? do you think they automatically exist above all the bugs as soon as they are born?

[prime mantle]

i know but it's the most fun and interesting line of thought for who he is. it also makes the colloseum's infection nullifying sensible for me

[frosty gate]

They're just not weakminded

They use infected bugs

[limpid summit]

I’m not sure what dyaces is supposed to say here

We don’t know how Wyrm birth works

Or any natural HB birth

[frosty gate]

There's some non infected, non protagonistic bugs

[low oracle]

Higher beings aren't born. They are made, and they can make themselves by becoming the "god" of something. Wyrms seem like much too grand a scale, hence they could even get their own classification.

[limpid summit]

Who knows maybe

[rough ingot]

I mean

[frosty gate]

Like the dudes in the first Sauna

[rough ingot]

Higher beings seem to be able to give birth

Minus GMS

[whole holly]

i edited Diamonds list and come up with this:

[low oracle]

As I said already, Higher Beings aren't born, they're created. Hornet becomes a Higher Being once binding GMS, and the Knight becomes a HB by becoming the god of the void.

[whole holly]

Bug: Regular bug
Beast: Non-sentient bug (excluding titles)
God: Beast/Bug of great strength, not limited to Higher Beings
Ascended/Empowered Bugs: Lesser Beings with powers like those of Higher Beings(Mothkin, Weavers)
Semi-Higher Being: Beings with powers directly gained from Higher Beings, either through heritage or given directly
Higher Beings: Gods as humans would define them
Mr. Mushroom: A Team Cherry character, separate from the world of Hollow Knight. He doesn't fit the criteria for all other categories.

[rough ingot]

I thought radiance was referring to the void as their ancient enemy not the lord of shades in specific

[limpid summit]

Yeah but those are two HBs we follow from middle to end

[prime mantle]

those bugs are captured or beasts, though. i think it's very possible that faith/complacency could play a role in a wyrm's thrall from lore tablets in hk, which would mean those who believe in being a fool could resist infection. idk id need to think on it

[limpid summit]

We don’t see the conception of Unn or PK or Rad

[whole holly]

i basically suggested Ascended/Attuned/Empowered Bug category, even Pale King's beacon Ascended the bugs

[rough ingot]

We know PK was created from the Wyrm corpse

[limpid summit]

As in Wyrm specifically

[prime mantle]

id assume the dream nail dialouge she thinks while she is fighting the knight is directed at the knight, but it's been a while since i did pantheon

[limpid summit]

He’s the same dude

[rough ingot]

Pale Wyrm and pale king are 2 diff bodies

And uhh

Let’s consider them separate for this

[limpid summit]

Ancient enemy could be Void or PK

[rough ingot]

Like considering lord of shades and shade lord separate

[limpid summit]

I wouldn’t

[whole holly]

if Wyrms are Higher Beings i don't think they would have died out, therefore making them Ancient Beings

[limpid summit]

It’s just a transformation

[prime mantle]

pk is constantly called wyrm though, i dont think his power or personhood changed at all

[rough ingot]

PK was just who the radiance was pissed with

[limpid summit]

LoS and shade lord are both TK

[rough ingot]

Yes

But the shade lord I was referring to was the collective? Being at the end of P5

And lord of shades was the knight

[limpid summit]

Yeah but it’s still the same dude

[whole holly]

Bug: Regular bug
Beast: Non-sentient bug (excluding titles)
God: Beast/Bug of great strength, not limited to Higher Beings
Ascended/Empowered Bugs: Lesser Beings with powers like those of Higher Beings(Mothkin, Weavers). Ancient Beings : bugs with long lifespan, Bardoon, Fayforn, AC Bugs and Wyrms are Ancient Beings
Semi-Higher Being: Beings with powers directly gained from Higher Beings, either through heritage or given directly
Higher Beings: Gods as humans would define them
Mr. Mushroom: A Team Cherry character, separate from the world of Hollow Knight. He doesn't fit the criteria for all other categories.

[limpid summit]

Godly focus just allows TK to grab more void and hold it

[rough ingot]

The shade lord is also presumably made of the siblings

[rough ingot]

Yea that makes sense

[rough ingot]

I’ll let that stand for now

I don’t feel like refuting it

[limpid summit]

Fair

[low oracle]

They both don't start with the status. If two Higher Beings could create infinite "gods", the Radiance would stand no chance. And creating a Higher Being is extremely difficult too:
Hornet basically took over the role of GMS, so no new Higher Being was created. She simply bound her power to herself, and it isn't even certain that she wasn't overtaken by GMS instead/her direct nature and will.

The Knight had to take two extremely Powerful fragments from two Pale Beings, which then had to be converted into their own identity and will. THEN they had to be ascended by the godseekers, and only at that point did the Shade Lord come to be.

[low oracle]

I definitely agree with this list the most.

[rough ingot]

I would say knight post boidheart is borderline higher being

[low oracle]

Both the siblings and void, as it isn't only the siblings rising in the Radiance fight.

[limpid summit]

I’m just saying there’s nothing that says Rad didn’t come into being with the ability to shape life from dreams, Unn neither

[whole holly]

you contributed immensely i simply added Ancient Being and Ascended Bug category

[rough ingot]

The eyes give it away

[limpid summit]

I’m not sure if we can say anything about HBs in that sense

[rough ingot]

Higher being birth I’m curious about

Since when Pk dies hes implied to reincarnate in some way

[prime mantle]

semi-higher being is idk, weavers would go there.

i just don't really think higher being is a term that can have well defined borders. really strong but mortal beings would go in bug or beast (such as karmelita, who hornet calls her equal, and hornet can beat a god even if it's a weakened one) while weak and immortal beings could go in higher being (such as unn)

[rough ingot]

Weavers, Hornet,

Lace maybe?

[low oracle]

When gaining the voidheart the Knight becomes The Lord of Shades (controlling its siblings and giving them/itself will). It probably isn't more than a semi-HB though.

[prime mantle]

i think the vessels, hornet and lace are all higher beings personally. eva is iffy. phantom isn't one.

[rough ingot]

Is the Shade lord (the god killer) not a higher being? It’s heavily implied but I thought that’s what we were going to use until proven otherwise

[limpid summit]

Void Heart Knight is a HB

[rough ingot]

Phantom is a dying corpse

[limpid summit]

Bardoon suggests as much

[low oracle]

The thing is, nothing is immortal by definition alone. HB can live on indefinitely, but they can still die to other causes.

[whole holly]

Higher Being usually signifies Higher Abilities of Scale, not raw physical strength

[limpid summit]

Phantom is the same as Lace though

Mechanically

[frosty gate]

I'm also working on my iteration

[low oracle]

In all objective conclusions, they simply aren't.

[whole holly]

i would love too see it, but it is open to changes

[limpid summit]

So it’s one or da other

[prime mantle]

i agree, and i think hornet and the vessels show these higher abilities, even if they're not environment defining. their unique talents are constantly remarked upon

[prime mantle]

gms holds all the cards for them sadly

[prime mantle]

i fail to see any objectivity here

[whole holly]

it is Scale of those Abilities that are important though, i made that known

[limpid summit]

Lace Hornet PV are fairly strong but they don’t “exist above all others” in the way that a beacon powering the intelligence of a kingdom, or enhanced evolution generator, or immortal essence harvester does

Or someone who can just

Ignore all that

[low oracle]

Lace and Phantom are pure silk, basically the equivalent of the vessels (Hornet even says so). If Lace was a HB, what is she the HB of? What does she stand for and what is she the god of?

[limpid summit]

Keep on trucking

Readjusting

Hornet is knowledgeable and she never refers to Lace as anything like higher

[low oracle]

Also, what even points to Lace being a HB? Like, what would even tell that in the first place?

[prime mantle]

well, they can bind higher beings? hornet is also boundless when she grows beyond her limits by acquiring crests, eva remarks on her abilities. these are grand scale for regular bugs. and even seemingly older bugs call her old one, and maskmaker even calls her higher caste. i really see no reason for her to not be a higher being

[limpid summit]

Is Greenpath Vessel a higher being

What about the dudes that are strung up by Nosk

[whole holly]

they are beings with potential to become higher, but they aren't above all bugs in their default state

[prime mantle]

i don't think that's how that necessarily works, but she could just be the higher being of "gms' perfect child", that's what she's made for

[limpid summit]

Because mechanically there’s nothing making them different from PV

Or even TK, until void heart

[prime mantle]

yeah they are. born of god and void

[limpid summit]

Vessels ain’t HBs 💔

[low oracle]

Because she is a higher being than them, not a Higher Being.

[limpid summit]

They’re powerful little dudes

[prime mantle]

spawnkilling a baby god wouldn't really change their nature

[limpid summit]

They aren’t a god though

Not bug nor beast nor god

They’re completely unique creatures

[whole holly]

that is different from Higher Being, in their default state they aren't above other bugs as definition mandates, although they have potential

[low oracle]

Then Quirrel is the Higher Being as Monomon's assistent, or what the fuck are you arguing?

[limpid summit]

No I see where mithrifer is coming from

[prime mantle]

...how are they not? the only bugs they are lower than are bugs that are explicitly higher. hornet constantly identifies herself with pale and higher beings when she speaks to lamenting characters, telling them things about the nature of her ilk

[limpid summit]

In a sense the ability to focus places them above normal bugs who can’t even dream of doing that

But that’s one part of them

[low oracle]

Where? Because there is literally nothing I can see, hinting at Lace being a HB.

[limpid summit]

As a whole being they aren’t above all others because they’re just not insanely powerful

[limpid summit]

Oh lace nah

But vessels a lot of people say the same

[prime mantle]

monomon and quirrel seem to be mortal, and not particularly magically powerful

[rough ingot]

I am confused

[prime mantle]

at least compared to a hb she can do that whole mask thing ig

[eternal cove]

In my opinion, any ending of Hollow Knight where the Radiance is defeated is canon

It's just that the Knight becomes the shade lord regardless

[whole holly]

scale of abilities need to put them above other bugs, if hornet isn't above Karmelita then she is not Higher Being, Vessels can focus soul but so can Soul Master, it is scale of control that defines them as Higher Beings

[prime mantle]

i don't really get where you're getting this

[eternal cove]

It's just that in Dream No More, it takes a little longer

[low oracle]

But Vessels aren't HB's for reasons already mentioned:
1—They stand for nothing
2—They aren't affiliated with essence powers
3—All their special qualities are inherited
4—Higher Beings aren't born, they are made
5—Why would Higher Beings be such a big deal if a million of them can just be mass produced

[prime mantle]

she has hb abilities karmelita can not have, it's just that karmelita is as strong as her. karmelita could probably kill unn or a level 4 grimmchild

[halcyon merlin]

does it make sense if dream no more can become shade lord

i mean

by taking a very long time sure i gues

but didn't etv work because of the focus in the ritual?

i don't understadn it

[low oracle]

They don't absorb the entire void at that point, but they probably still have the potential to afterwards.

[whole holly]

Team Cherry said that is meaning: There are certain creatures in the world of Hallownest that exist above all others, higher beings like Radiance and Wyrm and Root.

[halcyon merlin]

hmm yeah that makes sense

[eternal cove]

I think all that's needed for the shade lord to be created, is for the void to be commanded by a being that can think and feel
Which does happen in Dream No More, in my opinion

The Godhome endings are shortcuts
Becoming the shade lord not through strength of heart, but through sheer will

[limpid summit]

Well you do need void heart for pantheon 5

So it’s basically the same

[eternal cove]

You know what
I bet that the moment the Knight obtained the voidheart
They were on the path to becoming shade lord

The voidheart is the important thing that's needed for that metamorphosis to occur

Even if they, for whatever reason, left hallownest at that point
The voidheart is a part of them, and the metamorphosis would happen regardless

[prime mantle]

1. where is the assumption hb's are meant to stand for anything coming from? if it's from godseeker, she can find even chumps things to be gods of
2. is this a requirement?
3. which is an issue because?
4. where are you getting this from?
5. i don't think they naturally are, the vessel plan is very specific and pk and wl had no kids before or after. they had to have this many

[whole holly]

okay we already refuted many points and vessels aren't higher beings neither is hornet in default state, i don't know how to explain it to you other than fact that they simply don't meet definition

[low oracle]

The Lord of Shades and The Shade Lord have their explanations already in the name: One commands the shades, the other commands the entire void.

[limpid summit]

I would say the children of PK and WL might have been HBs. But while Void is just puppeteering the corpse they’re just powerful creatures

[limpid summit]

Shade Lord is noncanon

Both command the entire void

Void Given Focus (what most people call Shade Lord) is just better at it

[eternal cove]

Apparently not, since Hornet and Lace are almost killed, and the Knight has to show up to personally intervene

[limpid summit]

True that is a weird retcon

[low oracle]

I don't like arguing against made-up stuff, so I'll only elaborate on 1). EVERY Higher Beings is a symbol of something, excluding Wyrms to a certain degree.
Do you need examples?

[whole holly]

i call it Void Entity for some reason

[rough ingot]

I mean, the whole place didn’t totally flood with void like in ETV

[prime mantle]

hm. if we take this to mean that a higher being is meant to be untouchable except to another higher being or a very specific variety of bjg, the number of higher beings would slim down significantly

it's notable that unless hornet binds gms, she can't kill her. she has to dip her in void. same for radiance except the one doing the dipping is void itself

[rough ingot]

It’s got so many names

Void entity, Void Given Focus, The Shade Lord, Bill

[prime mantle]

this leaves too much up in the air though

[low oracle]

Yes, but isn't that the same thing? Being better at it = broader scale of control

The siblings are far more manageable, and why wouldn't the void show up to its fullest form in dream no more otherwise?

[rough ingot]

It’s just what ppl call it

Sure Void Given Focus is it’s only canon name

[eternal cove]

Theory time
I propose that what distinguishes a regular bug from a higher being is the ability to innately manipulate life force
PK and GMS can manipulate Soul
Nightmare Heart and Greyroot (since according to what Team Cherry said in that post, she's a higher being) can presumably manipulate Essence
Soul and Essence are fundamental forces a being needs to truly live

It's not impossible to manipulate these things as an ordinary bug - that's what magic is, and there are plenty of examples of bugs using magic to manipulate them in various ways
But I think a higher being can do it instinctively, on a physiological level
That's why they're a higher being

[rough ingot]

But I hear the others enough I know what y’all are talking about

[whole holly]

there are confirmed ones, GMS and Radiance are confirmed Higher Beings

[rough ingot]

Well I think they manipulate something

Ppl used that argument on fauforn. Saying not even silk can clear cold

Yea no joke but silk also can’t save you from lava

It works for Lord of Shades

/Shade lord

[low oracle]

Not gonna lie, Greyroot is probably a retcon. It simply doesn't add up for a Higher Being to require another Higher Being for strength.

[rough ingot]

Grey root is SOMETHING…

[low oracle]

Yes.

[rough ingot]

Grey root seems to devour power from other beings

[eternal cove]

Greyroot is weird

[low oracle]

Because Greyroot is a disgusting parasite.

[rough ingot]

If you gave greyroot enough non HB power… it can rival a higher beings

[prime mantle]

ill say im not convinced, especially after silksong, but i'd need to argue against a six year old author statement to make my point which isn't a position i want to defend

[rough ingot]

(Sorry my autrocorrect is really annoying)

[low oracle]

That would require some vessel type sacrifices though.

[frosty gate]

Would we agree Soul master is just a common bug?

[whole holly]

Team Cherry referred to specific Root and Wyrm being White Lady and Pale King, Greyroot does not exist above all of the bugs

[rough ingot]

Or just enough of the bugs like soul master who amassed copious amounts of soul or the great hearts

[rough ingot]

Common bug with soul obsessions and power obsessions

[low oracle]

If anyone disagrees, the mods should honestly ban them.

[eternal cove]

Okay they're talking about White Lady
Gotcha gotcha
That explains it, my bad

Thanks for clearing that up

[rough ingot]

Greyroot is just a parasite

[halcyon merlin]

you parasite

[rough ingot]

I also don’t know how long they had greyroot in the works

[prime mantle]

greyroot is my bb....

[whole holly]

i would say not all Roots and Wyrms are Higher Beings

[rough ingot]

The twisted ending…

Was not the original hidden ending

[low oracle]

Not too long, at least not THAT long.

[rough ingot]

It was weaver queen

String to serve was the basic ending but was cut

[prime mantle]

i like to think of grayroot as a prototype whitr lady

[whole holly]

that is popular theory actually

[low oracle]

Strung to serve and Weaver Queen are basically almost the same ending.

[rough ingot]

That they are family

[rough ingot]

Just who binds who

[rough ingot]

The fact that ppl affiliate Zote with greyroot and say that the knight and Zote are like somehow cousins is something…

[low oracle]

Yeah, who stays as the nature part and who can enjoy the puppeting part.

[rough ingot]

Same fate to Pharloom

[eternal cove]

To be fair, there is some evidence
Not a lot
But some

[prime mantle]

greyroot attains paleness from hornet in her cute little bud form and gains cognizence and conscience :) then she crawls up to hornet's wooden husk and cries for her mommy

[whole holly]

Greyroot and Lord Fool created Grey Prince Zote

[rough ingot]

I mean, would be really annoying if you made your way to the cradle, only to forget one bell and get bound

[rough ingot]

Bretta created GPZ it’s her dream

[low oracle]

The evidence in question: A type of wood, and Zote having father (Greyroot isn't even male).

[rough ingot]

Some, but it’s logic stretched as phantom’s threads

[prime mantle]

zote is a warrior of nyleth. it is known

[rough ingot]

And precepts against leaving the nest and beware of both parents

[whole holly]

i know i was joking

[rough ingot]

GPZ is something

[frosty gate]

I've hit a stump because I don't think Soul master as a common bug would be as common as Sherma

[rough ingot]

Pantheon run ender

[low oracle]

Bro (Zote) is just talking shit. What you said right there could also be applied to the Huntress or some shit.

[rough ingot]

Maybe greedy bug?

[prime mantle]

he's if sherma did a lot of drugs

[low oracle]

They are simply different species.

[whole holly]

i mean power can be attained technically, normal bugs can try but their physiology can't handle it

[rough ingot]

Zote is obviously talking shit bro… hes got the most dialogue in the whole game. The foil to the knight. And we still know jackshit about him

[prime mantle]

sherma is the only shermese bug in pharloom whereas soul sanctum is full of sm's buddies, sherma is rarer

[whole holly]

i think they were referring to power difference despite both being regular bugs

[prime mantle]

maybe seth is shermese too? or related. idk

[rough ingot]

Ppl tried to say sherma is related to the judges

[low oracle]

Then this should be canon if so.

[rough ingot]

Uh

I ain’t fighting that

We need a list of things we should not fight

[prime mantle]

the cursed ending for this was crazy

[rough ingot]

Ima start first with the Shade lord or the knight in general.

[prime mantle]

they're born with bronze masks i dont see it

[whole holly]

guys do we think Sherma's Song can ward off haunting since merchant that left Bone Bottom got haunted and Sherma didn't, in Pilgrim's Rest resting bug was not haunted while sherma was playing the song and haunting started after sherma left, weird but interesting

[rough ingot]

Could be between a judge and another Buh

[gentle aspen]

You can’t make stuff up and say “it is known”

[low oracle]

Sly would be worse than anything else. At least I don't have to fight a fucking buzzsaw.

[frosty gate]

Do we count Moths and Mantises as common

[rough ingot]

Uhh… at least we don’t have to fight a fking god????

[prime mantle]

it's true........... ..... ..

[rough ingot]

Who canonically beat Hornet twice at no where near either’s max strength but still

[cunning carbon]

What's the deal with the craws in greymoor. Have they always been locals or are they a recent addition? They seem very dug in

[frosty gate]

Watch me

[gentle aspen]

the way the haunting works as we’re told by Caretaker is by manipulating the silk in their shells that is either there or passed down through generations

[low oracle]

I'd rather die to a god than Sly.

[rough ingot]

Hornet has clawline AND a reliable parry

And shaman crest which has more range (pixel scaled) than sly prob

[frosty gate]

I think they were a Mafia before things went to hell

[low oracle]

It also affects bugs like the ants and the like, who didn't have any experiments be done on them,

[rough ingot]

This ain’t the nail good sly mod

Knight is stronger in lore, Hornet takes the cake in PvP variety

I was chatting with friends about a hollow knight PvP tournament

[whole holly]

yeah but Karmelita was able to ward off the Haunting by her Song and Skarrs were haunted after she stopped singing, GMS can manipulate threads and send them down to control bugs, Sherma's Song could have same effect

[rough ingot]

And decided silksong would be a lot more colorful due to the crest system

[prime mantle]

the bells turn off haunting too. or at least the first shrine does

[low oracle]

I would rather die epically to some god or something, than just that one dude who is just really skilled.

[rough ingot]

Bells used to stun GMS

[rough ingot]

Ive died to both, who wins. Sly or Karmelitta?

[prime mantle]

hornet had bells?

[rough ingot]

No

The string to serve versus weaver queen ending in the pre launch version

[whole holly]

maybe that's why Moss Druid has Bell Staff

[low oracle]

Grand Mother Silk screeches at the needolin being played, and the entire citadel's point was to play song. I think it is safe to say that song works against the haunting, as it bring bugs back to their own will and reality. It just pospones the effects though.

[rough ingot]

At the last minute the bells would stun GmS allowing Hornet to pierce her through the head and bind her as opposed to hitting her chest and you know where GMs’s arms go in resting

[low oracle]

Sly. Karmelita can't even hit him.

[rough ingot]

Even her 3rd phase

She’s got more range than him

And a block

Sure let’s say for this karmelita aims lower so she can hit sly

[whole holly]

yeah, Song is overlooked aspect of citadel everyone forgot, and Sherma unintentionally actively helping and warding off haunting

[rough ingot]

As we’ve seen in modded Knight in Pharloom, Karmellita can’t really hit the knight

[prime mantle]

karmelita can just ass whoop sly. aoe is great against him i love beating him with shriek

[rough ingot]

In the lore I feel like sly and karmelitta would have a very great fight

I had a harder time with sly that karmelitta

[whole holly]

he is faster but you can detect patterns after while

[rough ingot]

Karmelita is like… crazy

She sings a solo while you are fighting her and also she may not even be looking

Sly holds a massive sword and obviously tries to hit you

Karmelita dances

Sly fights

And both give saw PtSD

And neither teleport really

Actually who wins, Hollow in their prime or Karmelita…

Lore I would have a tough time, cuz both are like revered in the lore

[low oracle]

Have you seen the Knight vs Karmelita? That aside, Sly is also just stronger generally. He can move far quicker, attack at larger range, and he has a far easier time dodging anything.
Karmelita on the other hand couldn't dodge at all, at best perhaps parry some attacks. Her curvesickles would get instantly parried, and her spikes don't affect a target spending much time in the air.
All in all, Sly is just:
-faster
-harder to hit
-unaffected by most attacks
-has further reach without putting himself at risk
-is one of the strongest Nail wielders to ever exist

[rough ingot]

I SAID KARMELITA WOULD AIM LOWER TO HIT SOMEONE KNIGHT SIZED

[frosty gate]

I don't think this is fully right but well give it a look

[prime mantle]

hollow does one of those nail raise moves a few times and win

[near hill]

real ss lore is that hornet is obama

[near hill]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1329900686317584394/1461816452985131222/obamify_.gif

[whole holly]

that is interesting

[frosty gate]

What is?

[rough ingot]

Shakra is a great fighter actually

The ordering is sketchy

[whole holly]

your tier, i liked it

[rough ingot]

I feel like it’s too varied

[frosty gate]

Still a common bug

[rough ingot]

She’s like…

Crazy even in a sparring match

[whole holly]

this is more comprehensive: Bug: Regular bug
Beast: Non-sentient bug (excluding titles)
God: Beast/Bug of great strength/ability, not limited to Higher Beings (Father of the Flame)
Ascended/Empowered Bugs: Lesser Beings with powers like those of Higher Beings(Mothkin, Weavers).
Old Hearts and Powerful Mortals: Rulers or notable Bugs(Nyleth, Khann, Karmelita, Monomon, Vespa, Isma )
Ancient Beings : bugs with long lifespan (Bardoon, Fayforn, AC Bugs and Wyrms)
Semi-Higher Being: Beings with powers directly gained from Higher Beings, through heritage(Hornet,Vessels)
Higher Beings: Gods as humans would define them , Beings with abilities of scale that puts them above other bugs
Mr. Mushroom: A Team Cherry character, separate from the world of Hollow Knight. He doesn't fit the criteria for all other categories.

[rough ingot]

I mean

The tierlist gets argued all the time

[low oracle]

Pure Vessel would win too, as their attack are far more effective, even against small targets. The pale nails (ground) cover much more area than the spikes an the pale nails (projectiles) are can't be parried or easily dodged. Pure Vessel also utilizes large area damage and void tendrils, which pretty much require double jump to avoid. Every single attack of the Pure Vessel beats Karmelita by a great range.

[prime mantle]

seems fair. hunter might be a quarter god but he's got no silk and no bitches so his spot is right

[rough ingot]

At least the top stays mostly correct

[frosty gate]

Hunter is not a Weaver

[prime mantle]

its 100% more interesting for hunter to be half weaver. ride or die-ing this

[rough ingot]

Karmelita also has her ground spikes attack

We could also say that karmelitta could block or Dodge some of hollows attacks. I mean

[frosty gate]

I think the Old Hearts are higher than Monomon and the like

[rough ingot]

If that’s the logic that who can beat NKG due to his balloon phase

[rough ingot]

Monomon is just a nerd with the pale king’s funding

[prime mantle]

anyone with a pin

[frosty gate]

Which is why the Canyon is Foggy

[prime mantle]

if ghost had a mind to think he'd poke a hole in nightmare king grimm

[whole holly]

Old Hearts are powerful mortals but still mortals, she is Knowledgeable mortal i don't really want to powerscale, tiers can have characters with varied powers

[rough ingot]

@low oracle if your logic is correct, who can beat NKG other than sly due to size

[rough ingot]

It’s immune to nail attacks, it’s not unreasonable it’s immune to pin attacks too. Even NKG’s face is

[prime mantle]

i feel like nkg is like... intended to be beatable? you literally need to beat him to finish the ritual

[whole holly]

Menderbug

[rough ingot]

Don’t ask how I got up there

[rough ingot]

… Isnt menderbug like still too tall?

[whole holly]

fine Tiktik, Shadow Creeper, Runt, Plasmifised Grom

[frosty gate]

I gotta disagree, because the Old Hearts, or at the very least 2 of them, can recognize a Pale Being and raise up against them, Monomon was just a follower of PK

[rough ingot]

Ok ok but how do they hit NkG bro oneshots them in lore

And all are STULID

Balloon phase exists but so does the rest of the fight

[frosty gate]

Reminder that Khann had half of Pharloom under his rule before GMS

[prime mantle]

monomon was also not really integral to fog canyon functioning probably. idk nobody bothers to tell ghost shit

[rough ingot]

I was using it as an example

[rough ingot]

Khan also might be the strongest old heart

[prime mantle]

khan can raise whole ass pillars with a hand flick

[whole holly]

i mean that doesn't really define what i mean and like i said power scale doesn't matter, they are creators and rulers i lumped together

[frosty gate]

It's likely that Monomon is the reason why Fog Canyon is the way it is, the Canyon looks no different from Greenpath aside from the Bubbles

[rough ingot]

He wields a power, unlike the rest of the hearts. His moves aren’t suited for Hornet sized ppl

[frosty gate]

Bubbles that are related to Monomon

[rough ingot]

More like suited for an ARMY OF CIDADEL BUGS

And yknow… not a pale being either

More specifically the pale goddess of silk

[prime mantle]

idk it's a bit of an egg and chicken imo. i dont think she created the uma

[whole holly]

they are important figures that shaped history

[rough ingot]

And queens garden looks like green path but has white lady influence

[prime mantle]

maybe if we had a knowledgeable hunter with centuries of history and a liking for fluffy things write the journal instead of a neet hobo with a growling gut we'd know...

[rough ingot]

Ppl have no regard for unn’s territory

[frosty gate]

They literally call out to Monomon ??

[whole holly]

uma had to have been created since Fog Canyon didn't have them and was part of greenpath, maybe she birthed them after copulating with quirrel?

[prime mantle]

i was trying to name the small ones, i think she breeds the larger ones to be smarter. which would admittedly mean she's integral to their ecosystem! but do they need her to live?

its like if groal was more involved

[frosty gate]

Clearly not, but she likely made them somehow, she experiments with them

[prime mantle]

monomon is a certified fake heart because she darwin'd up the chimney instead of relying on powering through with faith like a real one

[frosty gate]

Hunter also says that the Canyon is "Unnatural"

[prime mantle]

hunter w omg....

[rough ingot]

Hunter is kinda helpful

[frosty gate]

And he doesn't even know what the hell are the Uomas

[rough ingot]

I mean

We need someone to note stuff down cuz the knight knows nothing

It lives… nowhere

Not even under a rock

[frosty gate]

Also I missed the chance to make the joke but im still doing it

https://tenor.com/view/haru-urara-urara-chibi-anime-chibi-uma-musume-gif-17070640574842630862

[rough ingot]

?

[frosty gate]

Monomon made this

[prime mantle]

idk the knight is pk so he should know it all..............

[rough ingot]

Most of us find the hunters journal before getting kingsbrand

But uhh

[frosty gate]

I agree with this to be honest, I think she did something like Zylotl but less endangering to the ecosystem

[rough ingot]

It doesn’t hold any memories

The knight can’t bind them

[whole holly]

Old Hearts are just rulers you guys they don't have powers and neither did Monomon, but i don't think Dreamers and Old Hearts are real category, they are notable beings lumped together

[rough ingot]

The plasmium guy really is messing with some really bad stuff here

[frosty gate]

Old Hearts do have powers tho

Their sole existence shapes their enviroments

[whole holly]

so did monomon? i don't get why you are denying that

[frosty gate]

Their presence is deeply connected to the enviroment

[whole holly]

as well as Vespa, Monomon, Alchemist even

Isma too

[frosty gate]

Because Monomon becoming a dreamer or dying doesn't affect their enviroment, plus her enviroment is artificial

[frosty gate]

Isma might aswell be an Old Heart

[prime mantle]

well we don't get to rip hearts out in hk so we'll never know for certain. but FOTF isn't a heart, and i guess zylotl is a gut but not a heart really

[rough ingot]

Isma isn’t as old as Nyleth

[prime mantle]

isma only has a tiny grove, i dont think she'd get to be one. a new heart

[frosty gate]

Vespa doesn't really affect the Hive, she's just a monarch. Zylotl and Monomon created artificial enviroments

[whole holly]

1. she being dreamer doesn't affect fact that she can shape environment around her 2. that is theory not confirmed but how do you explain Flora?

[prime mantle]

aren't the hive intended to be kind of in a hivemind idr that well tbh

[frosty gate]

She will be eventually, the point is they create their own ecosystem

[prime mantle]

i do think vespa could be a heart. honestly where do they even get the nectar for all of that from

[frosty gate]

What about the flora?

[whole holly]

i don't think she experimented on unique flora Fog Canyon, or they would be in controlled environment

[prime mantle]

fog canyon does have a lot of bubbly plants and egg things. i mean we don't even necessarily know if the jellyfish are bug based

[whole holly]

Monarch can affect Hive, though, Karmelita and Khann do it

[prime mantle]

if she created them instead of just breeding them to be smart.

which we don't know

[whole holly]

we don't know if monomon is bug based either

[prime mantle]

i commented bc you were talking about flora, but yeah monomon seems aquatic of some sorts

or maybe she's just algae. idk

could also be a soft bodied bug

[frosty gate]

Considering the Uomas and Oomas look like the flora, I guess she could've made them out of the flora around her archives. I don't think its that weird she would experiment on her surroundings

[whole holly]

is there confirmation or evidence of that?

[frosty gate]

Karmel dying is implied to have big consequences on her enviroment, that's not the case for Vespa

[frosty gate]

No confirmation, evidence is that the flora looks like the Uomas and Oomas

[whole holly]

also Uomas look like her so that is not really great point to say it is artificial, it is plausible that Monomon can shape her environment

[prime mantle]

bum prince implies he could have as well, he just decided moping while away was a better idea. we dont hear about the princes while they were together though they just talk about how kawaii they were or whatever

[whole holly]

Hive is going extinct though, they won't survive after infection

[whole holly]

they just abandoned Verdania? wow, evil

[prime mantle]

no i think the other one tried to save it and when he died bum got too depresso to save his homeland

[frosty gate]

Except that the Hunter doesn't recognize anything there like Natural and Monomon has Uomas in vats as if she was studying them

[frosty gate]

Tell me one civilization surviving the Infection that isn't the mantises

And the fools I guess

Everything is dead

[prime mantle]

dirtmouth technically counts for hallownest. pk win

[frosty gate]

The Hive is specially sensitive to the infection because they have a Hivemind

Infect 1 infect all

[prime mantle]

was this deserved chat

[whole holly]

Infection is literally puppeteering hive, they are dead, they couldn't have survived without Vespa, Infection is just reanimating them

[prime mantle]

maybe if they had a princess but even if some bees survive alive without another queen its gg

[frosty gate]

They wouldn't have survived with Vespa either most likely, but even then, this would only affect her followers, not the literally earth

Take the Old Hearts

Karmel dying implies the withering of the Fields

[prime mantle]

well if vespa died on her own the hive would also still die, so

[frosty gate]

Whether the river dried first or Khann died we don't know, but one thing affects the other

[whole holly]

i mean in Hive there is no earth/dirt/soil, it is just nectar, hive structure, what are you expecting

[whole holly]

same thing with Infection, Vespa and Hive....

[frosty gate]

I'm expecting to talk about the earth lmao

That's the changes we know happen

Not on people

[whole holly]

how would earth soil affected when they aren't even on Soil, entire hive structure is beeswax building

[frosty gate]

Like the influence is explicitly on the lands

[frosty gate]

Then she's not a Heart

[whole holly]

lands not just ground/soil

[frosty gate]

Whitering of the Ecosystem (Karmel)
Dried up river (Khann)
Complete extinction of Verdania's ecosystem (Green Prince)

It's literally about the land

Land being the ground

[whole holly]

that is not valid as Soil/Ground is not applicable to her Hive, and that's just Karmelita, we still see Coral without Khann so that could just be Karmelita's Importance as she is ant and ants have effect on ground

[frosty gate]

Like I would agree Monomon is a Faux Heart but Vespa???

[frosty gate]

Dried up Coral

And Verdania

[whole holly]

Land of Hive and structure is going to decay and after her death nobody is going to survive after her death, Ecosystem she created is going to decay, there can be ecosystems without glass

[frosty gate]

Like the only change in the Hive is the change in the entire kingdom, the infection killing people

[frosty gate]

She's been dead for a while

[whole holly]

i would say coral in resting bench looks similar to Khann's Memory coral, it is just background

[whole holly]

yeah, and so is Hive, they are just animated from infection.....

[whole holly]

and Vespa's Death and Infection are dooming hive

[frosty gate]

Which one?

[frosty gate]

That's just crusted coral the same as any other inKarak

[whole holly]

they look pretty similar other than background

[frosty gate]

I will agree on Vespa being close to being a Heart because Ari said the Bees were weakened by losing Vespa, which is similar to Karmel

[whole holly]

and? one can assume Hive was doing better when Vespa was alive, Infection masked symptoms of extinct ecosystem, because they reanimated Bees

[frosty gate]

Actually this is interesting because the Hive isn't said to be reanimated, they were overtaken

So they're not like the rest of the Zombies

They're closer to the Haunting

They're very similar to the Skarr actually

[whole holly]

Their queen died after growing so large she could no longer leave her domain. From then on, the Hive was weakened and thus eventually overtaken by the Infection. since Infection is Hivemind symptoms of ruler are masked

[frosty gate]

What?

[whole holly]

?

Khann is dead as well, so is Nyleth, and Vespa, only their memory/dream spirit of their peak remains

[frosty gate]

Did you read that I said this? I'm giving you the points dude

"Gotta do everything by my-fucking-self"

She wanted Hornet to consume her silk so tried to kill her indirectly

[whole holly]

okay, let's just accept they are both strong mortals, along with Old Hearts

[frosty gate]

When Hornet challenges her, it's basically as if she were knocking at the door

[frosty gate]

Oh yeah I agree with that, that's why Vespa is in special

[whole holly]

what do we think about Fayforn being fell heart of frost?

[frosty gate]

I'm truly surprised no one said anything about Moss Druid

[frosty gate]

I don't think it's that deep, probably just a title since she lives in the peak of a cold mountain

[whole holly]

i discussed it a lot at one point

dude deleted all his comments...

[whole holly]

Moss Druid seems to be concocting new heart, or at least she thinks she is

[edgy nebula]

a guy cant like both? shaking my head

[whole holly]

Old Hearts are so grand that you have to take sides, can't like both

[edgy nebula]

likely just a title, the "old hearts" are never actually called hearts in the game, theyre referred to as successors

itd be weird to call fayforn that

[whole holly]

you are right actually, "old hearts of our kingdom and the last successors to bear their strength." Fayforn is ancient, but so is Nyleth.., weird...

[whole holly]

i mean they are bearers and represent the old hearts

chat is kinda dead

stop deleting comments pls

[whole holly]

i gotta enter red memory to bring back peak of the chat

[rough ingot]

?

[whole holly]

it's okay

[limpid summit]

I think Fayforn is strong

[whole holly]

this is the peak of the chat, if there is one

[limpid summit]

I just think old hearts are like

[whole holly]

okay, no one is disputing that

[limpid summit]

More of a descriptor that applies to the ones we know than a baseline

I wouldn’t call her one

True

[whole holly]

that is so true actually, it is definitely not a baseline term, like Dreamers are specific individuals but Old Hearts have more unifying traits

[limpid summit]

What is it about Pharloom that causes the regular bugs to be tied to the land in this way

[whole holly]

in fact Old Heart is so specific i had to create accompanying term of powerful mortals , Old Hearts and Powerful Mortals: Beings that shape environment around them or accomplish something unfeasible (Nyleth, Khann, Karmelita, Monomon, Vespa, Isma, Moss Druid )

[whole holly]

tied...?

they tryna make new heart but Druid's Eyes are so good i just had to put them there

[whole holly]

i misgendered Moss Druid, my queen- i mean non-binary monarch

because Weavers were gone by then i am pretty sure

[limpid summit]

Their lifeforce keeps the land in stasis

Karmelita, GP

Lace was likely born in the Conductor era

Phantom who knows

[whole holly]

they aren't regular bugs, dude

[limpid summit]

Music

[limpid summit]

What are they

[whole holly]

Silk Cocoon gotta be comfy

[whole holly]

they are powerful mortals though, Khann control's Coral and Skarr as species as well as Karmelita is vital to ecosystem like Ants in real life

[edgy nebula]

Regular bug The cooler Regular bug

[whole holly]

i am kinda making a list about them, Hollow Knight groups

Bug: Regular bug
Beast: Non-sentient bug (excluding titles)
God: Beast/Bug of great strength/ability, not limited to Higher Beings (Father of the Flame)
Ascended/Empowered Bugs: Lesser Beings with powers like those of Higher Beings(Mothkin, Weavers).
Last Succesors and Powerful Mortals: Beings that shape environment around them or accomplish something unfeasible (Nyleth, Khann, Karmelita, Monomon, Vespa, Isma, Moss Druid )
Ancient Beings : bugs with long lifespan (Bardoon, Fayforn, AC Bugs, Mask Maker and Wyrms)
Semi-Higher Being: Beings with powers directly gained from Higher Beings, through heritage(Hornet,Vessels)
Higher Beings: Gods as humans would define them , Beings with abilities of scale that puts them above other bugs
Mr. Mushroom: A Team Cherry character, separate from the world of Hollow Knight. He doesn't fit the criteria for all other categories.
Also note that this is not exact order and sometimes titles on characters can overlap

[whole holly]

not all Wyrms are Higher Beings and i will die on this hill

thanks you are right, they fit into ancient beings i think

[limpid summit]

Didn’t you say caste/status is a mark of existing above all others

They all pull bugs into their thrall

[cunning carbon]

What’s the deal with the skarr watching their mother dance, sing and fight? Did they want to be there or were they forced to come to their moms show

[edgy nebula]

it's likely they like karmelita

[limpid summit]

She was probably a celebrity

Song queen

[whole holly]

caste? i kept arguing for major force, higher caste is not necessarily equal to higher being, but all higher beings have high caste

[limpid summit]

Unn doesn’t

[whole holly]

?

[limpid summit]

What do you mean high caste

[whole holly]

reverence, social status

[limpid summit]

TK

They may be the same species they may not be

[whole holly]

Godseekers revere it

[limpid summit]

Even if Root is a species we don’t know Roots well enough to establish a commonality

But they both want to spread themselves

WL wants kids Greyroot wants immortality

That could be the common thread

Wyrms want to rule Roots want to spread

Greyroot may be a product of her environment, or WL was once like her

We can’t know

[whole holly]

so TRUE AppleEgg

[cunning carbon]

Is greyroot a good kisser? Yeah they have an unorthodox style but are they good at it?

[whole holly]

you are blueprint AppleEgg

true

[cunning carbon]

Just thinking about the kiss greyroot gave me

That’s the unorthodox part

Not many people impregnate you from a kiss alone

[whole holly]

Abortion Quest was one for the Ages tbh, lot of people think that hornet being Cursed is metaphor for unwanted pregnancy

[limpid summit]

You are tuff Nika

[whole holly]

thanks AppleEgg

Pharloom Bay being above Verdania is interesting, i hope it will be connected, even though Verdania is no more

[halcyon merlin]

LOL

i can't believe hornet would do an abortion

she was struggling so much to get a child

semms crazy she would do an abortion as soon as she gets pregnant

ok being fr i don't think there's anything saying hornet wanted a child

maybe she has a dialogue of that with eva

but she had multiple husbands!!

[cunning carbon]

She wasn’t struggling to conceive she’s been struggling to find a mate that she won’t outlive due to being half pale being

[halcyon merlin]

im pretty sure there's a dialogue with eva

[cunning carbon]

Here’s hoping Styx has a long lifespan. This girlboss needs a malewife

[halcyon merlin]

i also think its because she's half wyrm and half weaver

weavers semms to live a lot

and she's also wyrm

[plain gazelle]

she tells eva that she's personally a victim of the curse that makes it hard for weavers to have children, which sort of implies that at some point she tried. But it could also just mean "yeah, I'm part weaver too"

[cunning carbon]

But at least that hunters journal entry confirms that our girl fucks

✨

[gentle aspen]

Do not post memes here

[cunning carbon]

Aw

I thought the reason weavers have issues having children is because it’s extremely painful

[limpid summit]

Hornet says smth about pain

I think that’s like

The pain of the curse though

Like knowing you probably won’t have a kid

[cunning carbon]

GMS uplifted the weavers and went “to keep them in check, I’ll circumcise them all”

For those who don’t know, female circumcision is cruel and painful

[gentle aspen]

GMS wanted daughters

[prime mantle]

abort that thang hornet

like father like daughter in root abortion 😇

they put the eggs in the void before they hatched

which is basically an abortion

[graceful grail]

Was Trobbios original goal to free pharloom from the haunting with his own song??

His melody also is the dies idre minus one note

[kindred ingot]

I have a theory

[tawdry flare]

matpat speech bubble gif

[kindred ingot]

Grimm is the leader of a cult with a strong relation to flames, lanterns, and the color red, who is referred to as "Father", fights with fire-related attacks, and whose main plan is to self-immolate in some kind of ritual
Father of the Flame is the leader of a cult with a strong relation to flames, lanterns, and the color red, who is referred to as "Father", fights with fire-related attacks, and whose main plan is to self-immolate in some kind of ritual

[tawdry flare]

nah

they’re not related

well maybe like in their methods and stuff but they’re not the same group or connected

[kindred ingot]

you can't just say "nah" to the obvious similarities

[kindred ingot]

maybe the Burning Bugs worship the Nightmare Heart too, just in a different way

that or Team Cherry accidentally made the same character twice

[tawdry flare]

they made the infection three four times

but the flame cult and Grimm Troupe are pretty distinct

[kindred ingot]

hold on, let me check smth

left one is Father of the Flame Needolin dialogue, right one is Grimmkin Master Journal Entry

[tawdry flare]

okay

so

[kindred ingot]

they both talk about a dance and "feeding"

[tawdry flare]

yeah that’s like classic cult stuff

we don’t know enough to conclude that they’re connected in any way beyond doing similar stuff

[kindred ingot]

they are a bit similar

[tawdry flare]

one is a pointed hat or something and the other is a segmented heart

the only similarity is being made out of cloth

[kindred ingot]

red cloth covering a burning red thing referred to as a heart

[plain gazelle]

at the moment none of the actual lore of wisp thicket overlaps with any of the lore of the grimm troupe, it's just some aesthetic parallels. there's space where team cherry could connect them but they're probably just a different fire-themed cult

[tawdry flare]

i think it’s far more likely that Hollow Knight’s fire magic is just consistent and that these are two completely separate groups that utilize different versions of it

[kindred ingot]

does anyone have the sprite of that weird thing in the Grimm Troupe secret room? I wanna check smth

the room with the masks, but I'm talking about the weird machine with the seal in the middle of the room

this

(but I need the whole sprite cuz Hollow Knight is dark af)

no, that's aother thing

anyway, it's clear that there are parallels between the Burning Bugs and the Grimm Troupe

I think they're related somehow

it's just too obvious to be a coincidence

[frosty gate]

"All in one, Master and clan"

The Heart created all

[edgy nebula]

except for brumm, divine, and grimmsteeds

[frosty gate]

Thanks Bobbi

[edgy nebula]

though with the masks i suppose you could consider the brainwashed bugs an extension of nmh

so it still fits

[frosty gate]

Brumm is likely brainwashed and somehow breaks free for a while

[tawdry flare]

this interpretation shrinks the world of Hollow Knight and is therefore BORING

[frosty gate]

Which is badass

Masks will never not be an interesting topic

We need more Mask lore

[kindred ingot]

also, other similarities I forgot to mention, Father of the Flame creates wisps the same way Grimm creates his little bat thingies, the Burning Bugs carry a lantern and teleport the same way the Grimmkin does the same thing, and Father of the Flame wished for immolation the same way Grimm's plan is to burn himself

[tawdry flare]

is Pilby an animal to you.

[edgy nebula]

maskflies

[tawdry flare]

this can all be chalked up to a consistent magic system

idk

[kindred ingot]

I think it's less like shrinking the world of Hollow Knight and more like making the Grimm Troupe (or at least the Nightmare's Heart) bigger

[frosty gate]

Which would be correct if it wasn't because the word Mask is used interchangeably

[kindred ingot]

Cornifer

Garmond

all pilgrims

the Vaultkeepers

all Skarr

The Pale King

The White Lady

the Stag

[tawdry flare]

masks might raise some bugs to sapience but a lot of bugs don’t need them

[kindred ingot]

Leg Eater

[tawdry flare]

idk much about masks consult the Silksong Mask Maker for more information

pretty sure it don’t say that

[kindred ingot]

meanwhile the multiple bugs with personalities we already mentioned:

I think masks don't give a personality to bugs, but rather change it

as the original and therefore better Mask Maker once said: "To change a face; to conceal it fully within another... A powerful protection that is, but one with sad consequence. The original mind is destroyed, though those of striking will may still retain a sliver of that concealed self."

[frosty gate]

He does something like that

[kindred ingot]

yeah that's what I literally just said

and I think that means a mask replaces a bug's personality

or at least a true mask

[frosty gate]

Which we've seen happen 3 times so far

[kindred ingot]

it happened to Quirrel, Brumm, all Grimmkin, and all Dreamers

that's 4

[gentle aspen]

Grimm doesn’t self immolate in some ritual

[frosty gate]

Oh yeah Quirrel

[gentle aspen]

The previous vessel dies to pass the heart to the next one

[kindred ingot]

he does when you fight Nightmare King Grimm

[frosty gate]

Grimmkin is made from the Nightmare heart itself, it's not people

[gentle aspen]

bro he’s spawning flames

[kindred ingot]

yeah, he dies by immolation

[frosty gate]

Dreamers keep their personality, it's just seals

[kindred ingot]

when you win, he self-immolates

[gentle aspen]

???v

No dawg they explode like every other boss in the game

[kindred ingot]

but when you destroy the mask, they die
so I think the mask replaces whatever bug was beneath it

[limpid summit]

It’s sort of representative of it

[kindred ingot]

they get engulfed by flames and burn

[limpid summit]

But it’s the “forms dreamed” that actually do it

Divine has a half mask because she has her own agency

But it’s not literally rewriting half her identity

It’s a big old metaphor

[kindred ingot]

I think only a complete true mask can do that to a bug

Grimmkin Master Journal Entry

[whole holly]

Okay stop arguing for useless Stuff

[gentle aspen]

they explode into their form of essence bruh

They’re not “self immolating”

[kindred ingot]

isn't that how this channel works?

[kindred ingot]

"burn the father, feed the child"

[whole holly]

Flickering Flame Wisp theory
Flickering Flame = Wisp (Hunter's Journal description)
Five masks swirled soul, brought and broiled. = Silk from Haunting (Silk generates wisp when hornet equips lanterns so it has to be close enough)
Four stones rage-baked, crushed powder coarse. = Ash in wisp thicket bags (it matches too closely)
Three shells fresh from pilgrims fallen, to contain and age. =pilgrims in bags of wisp thicket

It is clearly shaman’s flickering flame spells

[whole holly]

Scarlet Flame is indeed nightmare essence, and hunter’s journal says burn the father feed the child

[frosty gate]

Quirrel, Mask Makers and Brumm

[frosty gate]

Yeah that's how their seal works, but that's not what MM is talking about. Their case is rather extraordinary

[kindred ingot]

...Mister Mushroom?

[foggy fractal]

mask maker 🤔

[frosty gate]

Mask Maker

[kindred ingot]

oh

[foggy fractal]

🧌

[midnight zinc]

Except there’s nothing in the Wisp Thicket that references the Troupe or Nightmare Heart in any way, all the similarities you listed are arbitrary surface level similarities. The troupe doesn’t even use normal flames like the Burning Bugs, they use Nightmare Essence, which is red, not orange.

This is equivalent to saying Zote is a vessel because he looks like one and hates his father

[kindred ingot]

maybe that's because there is no bug beneath the mask. The dreamers do not wear the mask, they are the mask, and their former selves where destroyed by the mask. So, when you destroy the mask, you destroy them, because they and the mask are the same

[frosty gate]

I'd say it's the contrary. Mask Maker without the Mask is the old personality

[frosty gate]

You can just simplify it by saying their consciousness is inside the mask

[kindred ingot]

it's still a lot of similarities that deserved to be talked about

[kindred ingot]

it's not that simple, but yeah, you could say that

[frosty gate]

But then again, their case is special

[midnight zinc]

I mean we are talking about it right now, and I’m telling you there’s no actual connection lol

[kindred ingot]

they didn't have a great enough will

[frosty gate]

They served as seals

[kindred ingot]

maybe we should wait until the Grimm Troupe Silksong dlc

that surely will exist

[frosty gate]

How would Brumm have a will greater than a demigod, one of the greatest minds in Hallownest and... Well Lurien is a moron

The reason they die is because their consciousness is sealed inside the Mask within the Dream realm in order to act as a seal. They didn't lose their personalities, in fact they are have very vocal personalities.
The dreamer seal was probably not even made by Mask Maker

Actually chances are their bodies were so old they just puffed

[edgy nebula]

lurien apparently has a secret lover that tc never included in the game

[frosty gate]

They didn't want to make a love square with PK so they said that to play pretend

But we know the truth

[edgy nebula]

Q: Why did Herrah and Monomon end up getting more depth lore-wise than Lurien did?

Ari: "Well, probably now, for us, they all have the same amount of narrative. We maybe have revealed less of Lurien's narrative."

William: "Yeah, again there's that thing of not everything has to be kind of symmetrical. So you know you can reveal much more about one character and not going to feel like they all... That means that you don't necessarily need to reveal more about another character, it's just whether it makes sense, given their place in the world, and their role, that the player learns more about them. In the end, Lurien is a pretty mysterious character, we don't reveal a lot."

Ari: "Internally there's a suggestion of a relationship with another character in the game, that never was really hinted inside... in any of the visible lore. We could have pursued that, and it probably would have been interesting, but again it might have just... there's a point where it's just too much."

William: "I think some people might have guessed it. Maybe? Have I seen that?"

Ari: "Maybe. Anyway, we won't say [who] it is."

sorry for the wall

[frosty gate]

Pk

[edgy nebula]

maybe

[frosty gate]

Lurien the Watcher (From the Chair)

[edgy nebula]

i feel like they hint at that a little where they say it wouldve been too much

they say it's hinted at internally, someone should crawl through the files and find hints fr

[midnight zinc]

Either the collector or the pale king, there aren’t really other characters that the fans assume Lurien was connected to

Maybe that one bug that is in his shrine, his personal servant

[dire lynx]

the butler seems most realistic to me

[edgy nebula]

his butler or pk probably yeah

[strange hazel]

question

is trobbio inspired by grimm?

they both have similar color palettes (nkg and act 2 trobbio)

[kindred ingot]

no wait you were right keep going

[dire lynx]

no

just a flamboyant fellow

[strange hazel]

ohh

no

i mean that trobbio doesnt know of grimm

that team cherry took grimm

looked at his personality plus color palette

and then eventually forged trobbio from it

plus grimm is a vampire moth

[midnight zinc]

As in team cherry was inspired by Grimm? Probably yeah they saw everyone loved him and was like let’s do this but silly and somehow more gay

[edgy nebula]

grimm and trobbio are very different personality wise

[strange hazel]

and trobbio if im correct is a butterfly

[edgy nebula]

and grimm isnt any singular bug

[pliant crag]

There were at least 15 different grimms at some point

[strange hazel]

i know, simply just he's usually associated with a vampire moth

[pliant crag]

Idk, you can see many grimmchildren when he's stunned

Don't remember the exact number

[strange hazel]

and the base personality is somewhat similar

[edgy nebula]

he turns into bats cause hes a reference to dracula from castlevania

[strange hazel]

both involve a performance

[pliant crag]

Maybe each of them is a past version of him that was consumed

[strange hazel]

well

that'd mean the nightmare heart was likely recently created

looking at stagger theres a rather small amount, at the max 10.

i thought nkg wasnt real grimm just his potential?

[craggy smelt]

that's the case for a lot of dream entities, but Grimm is different
he's the vessel for a higher being and the Nightmare King is like his true self

[strange hazel]

im not sure though.

[craggy smelt]

the connection between being and vessel

[strange hazel]

Ah, i havent fully gotten into nkg.

[craggy smelt]

dig deep

it's rich lore

[strange hazel]

ok

[cunning carbon]

Had a thought.
The exhaust organ is the reason for the mist.
The mist makes travel to the exhaust organ difficult.
Phantom wants someone to kill her.
Nobody can come and kill her because she continues to ply the exhaust organ.

Is phantom stupid?

[craggy smelt]

anyone who couldn't make it through the Mist wouldn't be able to kill Phantom anyway

[edgy nebula]

she wants to die in battle

she doesnt want to get mogged by some weak ass pilgrim

[cunning carbon]

Does phantom believe in Valhalla? Is she a Viking?

[craggy smelt]

Bughalla

[dire lynx]

karakhalla

[strange hazel]

who knows, maybe dying in battle is what she thinks of as the best way to die, given she's a failure froom what i know

[craggy smelt]

I don't think she believes in an afterlife
it's just a badass way to go

[silver hinge]

[craggy smelt]

that one's pretty good too

[strange hazel]

that seems more unlike what she would do

would prefer battle

[cunning carbon]

Phantom, you don’t need to kill yourself, you need to learn about yuri!

[craggy smelt]

hornet's legs are too skinny

[dire lynx]

lugoli comes to save the day

[cunning carbon]

Lugoli, my life for them

[half saddle]

Would you recommend I beat Silksong before attempting to learn about the lore?

[strange hazel]

because it helps her feel better about herself trust

[strange hazel]

absolutely!

[half saddle]

Alr

[strange hazel]

its fine to learn about lore via bits and pieces in silksong but at the end it all comes together assuming you dont know of the final boss

uhhh

[dire lynx]

perhaps the mask helps her maintain her identity as she unravels

[strange hazel]

oh yeah she is much older than lace

because shes a fucking god

[dire lynx]

we dont actually know much of their age distance, phantom is unravelling due to the lack of silk from gms

[strange hazel]

shes the god of silk

[strange hazel]

oh

better question

same thing with radiance i reckon

shes fighting with the void

[dire lynx]

black under the silk makes sense, you can see it in her arms and face before she falls to the abyss

her head is shaped like phantoms as well under the silk hair

[strange hazel]

wait

what if she didnt originally have that she just made it so she looked similar to lace, since if im correct lace is just a dead shell with silk bringing it to life

[edgy nebula]

she dissipates into silk when you bind her in the weaver queen ending

she just has the black face

[strange hazel]

gms likes her, yes?

[dire lynx]

and hands

[strange hazel]

she knows of lace's thoughs about being a failure, so she tried to welcome lace more by changing her physical appearance

thats what i reckon

also

for the golden parts

it seems like its a thing among gods

the radiance has a very similar metallic leg area under it's fluff

[dire lynx]

its also worth noting that the same thing happens for every other bug we bind, so that may just be a quirk of the binding

[strange hazel]

if im correct grimm isnt fully a god

but you also

have his torso

[marble oasis]

So are part of her and Lace spun of black Silk or is that a mask?

[strange hazel]

which to me looks like metal

[edgy nebula]

honestly not sure, it might just be diffrently clolored silk

[oak palm]

Why would they be related

[strange hazel]

i think its a dead shell, i remember hearing she's a dead shell using silk from gms to live

[oak palm]

Grimm is like the avatar of a higher being he is not related to random spiders

[strange hazel]

he's saying that, he's just pointing out similarities

[oak palm]

Was still brought up I guess

[dire lynx]

.

[oak palm]

Gms has frames of like her silk unravelling and stuff

Not exactly what happens to the others

[dire lynx]

for the other bodies we actually claim crests for they are either covered up or the screen whites out

[marble oasis]

No, lace is pure Silk

[dire lynx]

and we see our silk go up with each stage of bind, along with a silk effect that comes out of those bodies

[marble oasis]

Which other bugs are this if crests don’t count?

Weavers only then no?

[dire lynx]

i was talking about crests

[marble oasis]

But you said the screen whites out

[dire lynx]

yes, at the final stage of the bind

[strange hazel]

ohj?

nevermind then

[marble oasis]

So they explode into silk and then it whites out?

Lace HJ description

A bug born entirely of thread. Much Silk would have been needed to see her sustained. A fragile form of life, but life nonetheless.

[dire lynx]

silk blasts out of the bodies with each bind and then it whites out yes

[marble oasis]

Yes

[marble oasis]

I see

There IS silk in all those bodies to be fair

If they don’t fully dissipate into Silk that doesn’t disprove anything about GMS

[dire lynx]

but then after the white out the body disappears entirely

thats the case for every crest we bind

[marble oasis]

Binding a crest is hungry work

[dire lynx]

yes, thats what i was am saying may also be the case for GMS

as in the ll fight we can see that she has a black body under the silk

but when we bind her that is not visable

[marble oasis]

isn’t that void

[dire lynx]

her silk hair is still white and there are little straggly bits of white wrapped around her

[dire lynx]

i am saying that the black is her bady, not voided silk

[strange hazel]

oh wait that axtually does make sense

that means i can expand upon my weaver queen hornet concept! :D

[dire lynx]

it still pmo that team cherry swapped the arm that gets chopped between the cutscene and abyss fight

yes, in the cutscene lace cuts off gms left arm

which she has in the abyss

pretty much my exact thoughts

[distant token]

torres gemeas

celso portiolli

[oak palm]

I didn't notice but last judge isn't confirmed female on the wiki anymore, the interview turned out to be unreliable

Hooray for more gender discourse

[muted lantern]

Arent these plants supposed to be in verdania?

[sinful nimbus]

My Last Judge is a man agenda still holds 🗣️

[oak palm]

Ok apparently there is a verified message from Ari Gibson confirming she is female but cannot be added to the wiki for privacy reasons