sk-lore

[kindred ingot]

read the message right after that one

[limpid summit]

He even exists above Higher Beibgs

[whole holly]

not used, guided

[frosty gate]

I mean I can't compare FotF with beings like Radiance, NMH or even White Lady

[kindred ingot]

represents something (flames), exists above regular bugs, is worshipped, has unique powers that only he and the bugs worshipping him possess, is referred to as a god

[limpid summit]

I would say being so powerful and long-lived that you can simply ignore even the most far-reaching catastrophes places you at a higher state of being

[kindred ingot]

higher being

[frosty gate]

I'm telling you, it could be a potential Higher Being that we killed before ir formed into a real one

[whole holly]

that is stretch, he used his foresight to sense PK's and other kingdom's demise, that's not definition of Higher Being

[kindred ingot]

White Lady is just a plant

[limpid summit]

The definition of higher being is existing above all others

[frosty gate]

White Lady is a Pale Root

[kindred ingot]

a white plant

[limpid summit]

If you can just brush off kingdoms falling as a drop in your bucket then you arguably exist above those matters

[whole holly]

but meaning of higher being in that definition is vague anyways

[frosty gate]

You are comparing the lady who gave birth to millions of Demigods

To a wood Totem

[whole holly]

i mean that is through physical feats not metaphysical

[limpid summit]

But if you’d appreciate a more tangible explanation he has extremely potent sense and precognition

He knows exactly where he’s going to go

This is probably part of why the Shrumals accepted PK

[kindred ingot]

I'm comparing a plant that breeds a lot to a totem that controls fire and can create a special kind of life not seen anywhere else

[limpid summit]

His prescience allegedly brought forth a more tangible presence similar to MM

One they hoped would protect them

They place great emphasis on his foresight

[whole holly]

i mean he does not have metaphysical feats or force that he utilizes, he is prescient mostly

[limpid summit]

WL

There are good theories about her greatest feats but they’re pretty much alleged

[kindred ingot]

if the White Lady is a Higher Being, the bar is low enough for Mister Mushroom and Father of the Flame to also be Higher Beings

[limpid summit]

We know she’s a Higher Being because TC tells us so

[whole holly]

i mean it seems to be industrial process of manufacturing wisps

[limpid summit]

father of the flame

[whole holly]

there is no criteria only vague definition so we can't speculate based on analyses

[limpid summit]

TC didn’t say world shaking powers or devoted followers or mind shenanigans

They said existence above all others is what defines a higher being

[kindred ingot]

is called a god, is worshipped, exists above regular bugs, has unique powers that only he and the bugs that worship him possess

[limpid summit]

In the recent interview they also confirmed MM is omnipotent

[kindred ingot]

Higher Being

[whole holly]

i think Team Cherry wanted some kind of Opposing Force to Grand Mother Silk so they introduced Father of the Flame but ended up significantly scaling it back, Burning Bugs seem to ward off haunting

[frosty gate]

The Wisps still spawn after killing FotF

So it might as well not be the source at all

[limpid summit]

Sorry

“Omnipresent”

[whole holly]

is that existence metaphysical therefore connection to dreams, is that presence physical such as lifetime, because they are vague and we can't use that to draw concrete consensus about Characters of HK universe

[limpid summit]

But that has a strong connotation

[whole holly]

i would say he is omniscient, not omnipresent

[limpid summit]

That’s what TC says

They don’t say he’s not strong either though I’m not going to argue he’s an amazing fighter

[frosty gate]

TC should study their own game better

[limpid summit]

They say that he’s omnipresent but probably isn’t aggressive enough to fight you

[kindred ingot]

the flames were harvested from the Father of the Flame, but at that point, they're their own thing and have to be killed individually
but they don't respawn after Father of the Flame dies

[limpid summit]

“Now has maybe become representative of a more general journey”

Pale King represents the lofty dreams of civilization, Rad represents nature and its eventual destination, entropy

[whole holly]

but Higher Being seems to be unfathomable being, according to lace, Higher Existence might mean powerset and abilities based on that

[limpid summit]

Mister Mushroom exists above them both as the inevitable journey

[frosty gate]

I'm not in front of my PC right now but I'm pretty sure if you go to the Wisp Thicket they Wisps still spawn after FotF dies

The Burning Bugs don't

[limpid summit]

Mister Mushroom is ever-present

[kindred ingot]

hm. odd

[limpid summit]

TC words not mine

[edgy nebula]

we should kill ari gibson and william pellen for misgendering tk lowkey

[kindred ingot]

if the Burning Bugs are all dead, and so is the only source of fire in the area, then who's fixing the Wisp lanterns?

[frosty gate]

Menderbug

[whole holly]

that is pretty much similar narrator character that doesn't impact worldbuilding and isn't significant part of it, that's explicitly not what Higher Beings are

[kindred ingot]

how is he getting fire?

[frosty gate]

It was a joke

[kindred ingot]

specifically Father of the Flame fire

[limpid summit]

His pronouns are it/its 🗣️

[whole holly]

Essence and Dreams still exist after we kill Radiance, or AbsRad

[kindred ingot]

??

[limpid summit]

Explicitly?

There is no explicit

Higher Beings exist above all others

[frosty gate]

I'm telling you, FotF itself is not a HB, it probably could become one but that thing isn't one

[kindred ingot]

again, if the White Lady is a Higher Being, Mister Mushroom being a Higher Being isn't that much of a stretch

[limpid summit]

Bobbitt I think that refers to MM though

The he

[frosty gate]

This one I can agree

[edgy nebula]

fotf is just a burning man

[whole holly]

meaning: stated clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt.

[edgy nebula]

https://tenor.com/view/wicker-man-wickerman-burning-cult-gif-9444735240156075617

[kindred ingot]

he's called a god by the Hunter's Journal

[frosty gate]

Inside a wooden totem yeah

[edgy nebula]

wicker man i mean

[frosty gate]

By Nuu only

[kindred ingot]

he burns eternally and can create life

[limpid summit]

Why can we call Unn and Nightmare Heart higher beings

[kindred ingot]

he's clearly not "just a burning man"

[kindred ingot]

okay, I can settle with that

he's a Higher Being fetus

[heavy gyro]

FotF was built by the burning bugs; the god part probably refers to how they consider it a god

[frosty gate]

Yeah, this ties into my theory that things can become HBs if worshipped enough

[edgy nebula]

because it’s the god the burning bugs worship, presumably, just recreated in wooden form

[whole holly]

Higher Being seems to be unfathomable being, according to lace, Higher Existence might mean powerset and abilities based on that, and they have effect on their environment, Unn, Nightmare Hear, Radiance, Pale King, White Lady, Void Entity, Grand Mother Silk meet that definitions

[kindred ingot]

White Lady does NOT fit that definition

[limpid summit]

Effect on the environment

I mean like

[frosty gate]

White Lady is a really weird HB

[whole holly]

Mister Mushroom is narrator-adjacent character that comments on state of world

[kindred ingot]

that's what I'm saying

[limpid summit]

If you really want to stuff that into your analysis he likely created the Shrumals

[heavy gyro]

WL disrespect is getting out of hand, she made half of the kingsoul

[kindred ingot]

if White Lady can, Mister Mushroom can too

[limpid summit]

He literally has telepathic conversations with unseen beings and somehow knows exactly when and where an age will end

How is this fathomable

By your definition

[whole holly]

White Lady created Vessels, her Gardens are overgrown, she is stated to have Growth powers

[limpid summit]

She isn’t stated

It’s a common theory with lots of weight

Never stated

[kindred ingot]

yeah, and Cornifer made the Wayward Compass
making Charms isn't that big of a deal

[frosty gate]

The Garden was already there

It's literally just part of Greenpath

[limpid summit]

(It’s true but still)

[heavy gyro]

Kingsoul generates infinite soul out of nowhere

[whole holly]

and overgrown compared to Greenpath

[heavy gyro]

And is the key to making the voidheart

[kindred ingot]

she didn't "create" vessels, she gave birth

[whole holly]

she is part of Kingsoul

[heavy gyro]

WL was also able to speak from Hornet's memory

[whole holly]

meaningless distinctions

[frosty gate]

SHUT IT

DO NOT BRING THAT THEORY INTO CONVERSATION

[kindred ingot]

very meaningful actually
creating something is very different than giving birth to something

[whole holly]

why is this channel anti-WL

[kindred ingot]

that's a major plot point in Silksong

[heavy gyro]

?

[heavy gyro]

Why not

[foggy fractal]

how about the music guy

[limpid summit]

I’m not

[kindred ingot]

nah it's just me, she sucks as a Higher Being

[limpid summit]

I’m just making the point

[kindred ingot]

the Pale Being stuff is really carrying her

[whole holly]

not in universal context, only context of GMS

[whole holly]

she is part of Kingsoul

[frosty gate]

I'm not anti WL either, she's jus a really weird HB by comparison

[limpid summit]

We retroactively must rationalize WL’s powers as “fathomless” because she is a stated HB

[edgy nebula]

he can stay

[limpid summit]

Mister Mushroom is explicitly fathomless

[frosty gate]

I think her being a Root has something to do with it

[limpid summit]

If we’re talking explicit

[frosty gate]

It's a baseless theory hanging by the thread of Hornet having a hallucination inside a memory

[kindred ingot]

she's just a white plant that lays eggs and can make infinite soul while married

[whole holly]

fathomless is likely about offensive and creative abilities, not sensory which non-HBs have, While Lady has part of creation of Kingsoul

[whole holly]

infinite soul is kinda fathomless

[kindred ingot]

while married to Pale King

[heavy gyro]

Wouldnt assuming that hornet has a hallucination also be baseless

[frosty gate]

You literally don't know if she could do that before or not

[kindred ingot]

she only has half of the Kingsoul

[whole holly]

half of infinite is still infinite though, even if you argue that she only contributes half of kingsoul

[kindred ingot]

the Kingsoul is the thing making soul

[kindred ingot]

the whole is bigger than the sum of its parts

[dire lynx]

Holy charm symbolising a union between higher beings. The bearer will slowly absorb the limitless SOUL contained within.

[limpid summit]

What 💔

[kindred ingot]

you can't get "half of infinite" soul while wearing the White Fragment

[whole holly]

not applicable in this context

[limpid summit]

Okay we’re discounting offensive because that doesn’t make sense

PV could beat GMS

[frosty gate]

It would by an exageration, I just don't think she's actually having a conversation with the actual White Lady

[kindred ingot]

very applicable in this context, actually

[whole holly]

because it is not equip-able

[kindred ingot]

you can't just say true things are false sometimes

[limpid summit]

Nika normal bugs can also use Soul and Dream magic

But part of PK’s capabilities leads us to guess he uses it on a vast scale

[kindred ingot]

even if it was, it still wouldn't give off half of infinite soul

[limpid summit]

Even without like the beacon or anything this would still qualify him

[whole holly]

but have limits in scale, Higher Beings literally do it at unfathomable scale

[dire lynx]

what even is the argument rn lol

[limpid summit]

And prescience/world sense on an unheard of level would do the same for MM

[limpid summit]

Yes

[kindred ingot]

idk, I'm just saying true things and correcting false things

[limpid summit]

Compare Mask Maker to Mister Mushroom

It’s the exact same thing

But if you really want to add “creative powers” to the definition of HB for some reason he probably created the Shrumals

[whole holly]

what is evidence for that, by your logic pale king's half wouldn't either and Kingsoul being divided as equal halves suggest that PK and WL are equal

[limpid summit]

Ellina even mistakes him for one

[kindred ingot]

Mister Mushroom is a Higher Being, White Lady is weak, the White Fragment does not contain half of infinite soul

those are my points

[whole holly]

i would like source of it

[whole holly]

again, by your logic pale king's half wouldn't either and Kingsoul being divided as equal halves suggest that PK and WL are equal

just because White Lady is not particularly active in using her unfathomable doesn't meant that she is weak

[limpid summit]

She doesn’t know about the Shrumal hive mind

So she just thinks he’s a random uninfected shroom

[kindred ingot]

yeah, Pale King's half doesn't either, but Pale King can mess with soul in other ways, considering that his Palace has infinite soul totels

[limpid summit]

Pale King looked like a common bug

[whole holly]

where is no word higher being in there

[limpid summit]

What are you asking for evidence for

[whole holly]

i thought you meant that elina mistaked him for HB

[kindred ingot]

Mister Mushroom is a being, and he is higher

therefore

he is a Higher Being

[limpid summit]

No she mistakes him for a Shrumal

It’s likely he created the Shrumals - they speak his path

This is an arbitrary requirement for being a HB

But it’s at least fulfilled

[heavy gyro]

Flukemarm HB theory

[kindred ingot]

???

[whole holly]

that's not definition, he is very fathomable with his sensory abilities, because other beings like Eva have Insight, Mask maker has The Sight, Hornet has Far Sight and Steel Seer Zi has her unique sight, MM is basically equal to Steel Seer Zi in abilities

[heavy gyro]

[limpid summit]

Weavers have Seal powers so PK’s Seal powers are fathomable

What are you saying

These are fathomless “versions” of fathomable power sets

[kindred ingot]

that's a lot of sights
what I meant was, Mister Mushroom is a being that stands in a higher form of existence when compared to other bugs, beasts, plants, and mushrooms
as a being in a higher form of existence, he qualifies as a Higher Being

[limpid summit]

It’s the ultimate exercise in strength to do what Higher Beings do with these powers

Are you insinuating that with all his prescience and literal future vision he’s somehow comparable to the average bug

Obviously he’s not narratively touted as one like even Unn or NMH would be but that would honestly be weird and out of place

[whole holly]

when did i say that, unless you consider Steel Seer Zi, regular bug

[limpid summit]

The definition TC gives us is open enough to slot him in

[kindred ingot]

PK's main power isn't really Sealing stuff

[kindred ingot]

Steel stuff is complicated

[limpid summit]

What is PK’s main power

What power do you think makes him a HB

[edgy nebula]

his aura

[limpid summit]

True

[kindred ingot]

granting intelligence to bugs and foresight (also soul manipulation from the Pale part)

[limpid summit]

MM has stronger foresight lol

[stray fog]

There are a lot of powerful characters. Only those stated to be higher beings should be considered to be higher beings

[kindred ingot]

his foresight is weak, but he has it and it's one of his main things

[limpid summit]

Unn, NMH

TK pretty much

[dire lynx]

that would leave unn and the nightmares heart

[whole holly]

that's because it is vague though, i would say Steel Seer and Steel Souls are equal but MM is clearly narrator-adjacent being

[kindred ingot]

and Shade Lord

[limpid summit]

Nika every descriptor you attach to him is just an upscale

I’m not even saying he’s a narrator

[stray fog]

Wait were those never stated?

[heavy gyro]

TK with voidheart is stated to be stronger than PK so its already kinda implied ingame

[limpid summit]

That would firmly place him above all others

[kindred ingot]

strength isn't what determines what a Higher Being is

[limpid summit]

Under “existence above all others” and nothing else, why do you think MM zipping from kingdom to kingdom with his future vision, watching Higher Beings die, does not metaphysically place him “above” them

[stray fog]

Then I take my statement back

[limpid summit]

They pride themselves on their dominance and rule

[whole holly]

Unn, NMH, and Shade Lord have confirmed abilities relating to some king of force (Essence, Soul, Void) and they are confirmed by pattern recognition, Mister Mushroom doesn't have same Metaphysical Force

[limpid summit]

But he’s just roadrunning and he lasts longer

What he stands for persists

[whole holly]

don't it still applies

[limpid summit]

Their rules are like the rules of mere mortals to him

[heavy gyro]

alright not stronger, TK "evolved beyond" PK which is clearly existing above him or being an HB

[limpid summit]

Pattern recognition is dumb lol

That’s why TC kept the definition vague

GMS doesn’t have an Essence color but she obviously exists above all others

TC didn’t want to make specific qualities pertaining to HBs

[whole holly]

it isn't because it is more reliable that vague definition TC provides

[limpid summit]

So they could easily introduce one that doesn’t fit established “patterns” without making it not make sense

[limpid summit]

It literally isn’t though

GPZ, Godseeker have unique Essence colors

WL doesn’t have one

[whole holly]

i never made that requirement, though or even mentioned it

[limpid summit]

Existence above all others is reliable

“Abilities relating to some kind of force”

What

[whole holly]

i never even mentioned color of essence

[limpid summit]

How does existence above all others become that

[whole holly]

yeah it is true

[limpid summit]

Do you think Twisted Child is a HB

In the ending

[stray fog]

If I had to guess, I would say that it is one

[whole holly]

they are above in sense that their control of major forces is unfathomable, it can be any such as Soul, Essence or Void, game implies that

[limpid summit]

Pattern recognition does not work because TC could easily make a higher being who doesn’t fulfill these categories

But it exists above all others

[limpid summit]

The game does not imply this

[whole holly]

but they haven't

[heavy gyro]

Are the believers in the shrine of believers HBs

[limpid summit]

But they might

[whole holly]

every HB fits into that definition

[limpid summit]

That one’s probably not canon

[whole holly]

that is whataboutism and isn't really great argument

[limpid summit]

I don’t understand your argument though

Just because every HB has commonalities doesn’t mean those commonalities make them what they are

Every Snail Shaman had the same body type until SS

Higher Beings are who they are because they exist above all others. They have wondrous, far-reaching powers worthy of worship

[whole holly]

my argument is that all higher beings are HBs because their unfathomable power over some kind of major force and all the higher beings prove that

[limpid summit]

Mister Mushroom has the most potent sensory abilities we see in game, by his very nature he is above the rule of other Higher Beings, and he created the Mushroom Clan

Multiple Mushroom Clans

[whole holly]

what are They have wondrous, far-reaching powers worthy of worship in your opinion, since all confirmed HBs have powers that is related to Essence/Soul/Void

[whole holly]

could have been natural copulation, who knows

[limpid summit]

Lmao

[stray fog]

What about the white lady

[whole holly]

Kingsoul

[limpid summit]

That’s formed from their union

[quartz void]

Wait is the void a higher being in itself

[limpid summit]

It doesn’t mean their powers are completely equal lol

[whole holly]

and?

[stray fog]

Only when united

[limpid summit]

It means their union places them equally

[quartz void]

Fair enough

[limpid summit]

The ability to plot out your exact path extremely far in the future, speak to beings we can’t see (fathomless)

[whole holly]

however you divide infinity, it will still be infinity even if you suggest that WL is unequal to PK

[stray fog]

Their powers aren't infinite

[whole holly]

how does he exist above all others?

[whole holly]

they still equally contribute to Infinite Soul though

[stray fog]

Oh that

[limpid summit]

He’s representative of the eternal journey
He exists above Higher Beings by eclipsing their rule and worship over and over, what marks them as such
This places him above mortal bugs as well

I promise you if Team Cherry wanted to say something as broad as “there are certain beings that control specific forces in the world of Hollow Knight” as if that was the criteria, they would have

That’s not hard to say

Existence above all others is vaguer and gives us more wiggle room

[whole holly]

he could be separate category all on their own

[limpid summit]

Okay

What suggests he’s some sort of separate category

So, the Herald visits this land too... If he is here, now, then great change or a savage end is inevitable.

[whole holly]

and makes status meaningless as a result because MM being HB would have no narrative or any impact over story, he almost exists outside of it and is symbolic character

[limpid summit]

Hornet recognizes his abilities

He’s a symbolic character

Wow just like Radiance and TK

[whole holly]

he is observer, mostly

[limpid summit]

Yes?

He’s an observer

This places him above others

He doesn’t get dragged into petty conflicts or even apocalyptic events

He just sees them, comes, readjusts

Untouched

[whole holly]

not really, Steel Souls are non-HBs but do same things

[limpid summit]

I dont see how placing the most supreme character in the Higher Being tier makes Higher Beings meaningless

[limpid summit]

The Steelhearts don’t herald the end of an age

You can do Summoned Savior and then go do Weaver Queen, perpetuating the Haunting

They just go and watch dying kingdoms

Mister Mushroom is steeped in metaphor and symbolism

And he’s powerful

[whole holly]

they serve different purpose

[limpid summit]

Team Cherry says the only reason he wouldn’t be a boss is because he isn’t aggressive

He is an observer

NMH pretty much does the same thing

It has little outside story significance

[whole holly]

yeah but he lacks substance, he is just decoration with lore

[limpid summit]

But it’s obviously a HB

Wdym he lacks substance

He lacks nuance?

He’s fathomless lol

He doesn’t need a visible character arc because we’re just a speck on his journey

That’s what we are to him

And that’s what a Higher Being is to him

[whole holly]

Fathomless obviously refers to common HB abilities MM doesn't have

[limpid summit]

No?

[whole holly]

yes

[dire lynx]

this is such a boring discussion, so i just want to say that the father of the flame is not a higher being

[limpid summit]

First of all let me pull up that dialogue

[limpid summit]

I think we can mostly all agree on this

[edgy nebula]

the only thing i can think of when mister mushroom is abbreviated is moss mother

i cant believe moss mother was a hb all along

[limpid summit]

Hornet: This land's grandeur, the devotion of its bugs, and the curse that befalls them. The signs are clear.
Hornet: Your kingdom is in the thrall of a creature beyond bug, one of that higher caste.
Hornet: Whatever its desire for my Silk and my shell, it shall find I'm quite attached to both.

Lace: Tch... Hahahaa. Marvelous sic! So the spider knows something of fathomless beings, and still it hopes to stand against one, a god

First of all two of these things aren’t even GMS’s fault

Lace isn’t attributing those qualities she’s just affirming Hornet’s HB knowledge

When Lace says fathomless she doesn’t mean “GMS controls Soul”

She means GMS is ridiculously strong with far reaching capabilities

Mister Mushroom’s mere presence signals the end of an age

He’s watched as Higher Beings have fallen repeatedly

But somehow he’s not above them?

Saying “he’s different so not a Higher Being” is reductive

He’s different for sure

But TC gave us this definition for Higher Beings and he slots within it

Extrapolating that definition to make something up and say he fits outside it is not grounded

[whole holly]

it is it is grounded in very dialogue you have shown there are tendencies of Higher Beings relating to Metaphysical Abilities and by extension Caste and Kingdom Structure, they almost always have effect on outside world and not MM

[limpid summit]

What dialogue

That doesn’t mean anything how does fathomless refer to control over a substance

[limpid summit]

He created the Shrumals
But Mister Mushroom’s lack of effect on the outside world doesn’t speak to his lack of power

It shows that it is beneath him

He doesn’t need to affect the world around him because he’ll just watch and leave

[terse warren]

Mister Mushroom is only there cause of Hornet's presence

[limpid summit]

That’s what he’s chosen to do because he’s so long lived and powerful

[whole holly]

This land's grandeur(their influence), the devotion of its bugs(their status), and the curse that befalls them(unfathomable control over major force).

[terse warren]

Hornet is the one bringing about the end of and age

it's not about higher beings it's just historical events of sorts

[limpid summit]

She didn’t bring him there he sought Pharloom out (who knows when) because of what she did

[limpid summit]

No?

Hornet is painted as wrong in this dialogue actually

She’s not supposed to be right

The grandeur of the Citadel is because of the Weavers and Conductors, the pilgrimage/devotion as well

She hasn’t seen the Citadel yet or learned its history so she doesn’t understand that mortals can make their own fervor

She just assigns everything to GMS

The entirety of act 2 is her learning that mortals did this stuff

[whole holly]

which is her influence whether direct or indirect, she created Weavers

[terse warren]

Meh

[limpid summit]

Yes

This is something she says to Green Prince

It’s what she realizes throughout the course of the game

Her point of view here is everything is GMS directly

She knows little about the Weavers and nothing about the Conductors

She’s incorrect here

[terse warren]

Something something the weakest Featmaster is stronger than the strongest Lore Merchant something something

we really have no reason to believe the Herald is powerful is any way

[terse warren]

isn't she always

[limpid summit]

Yes

But that’s beside the point

[terse warren]

isn't it everyone's even irl

[whole holly]

MM is neutral observer who has exactly no confirmed power over events of outside world, he is limited to witnessing it as game shows us at least

[terse warren]

what's the discussion about by the way

[limpid summit]

The Higher Beings we see have an effect on the world

[whole holly]

Higher Beings still have inherent influence whether direct or indirect, Mister Mushroom doesn't, he observes

[limpid summit]

Mister Mushroom is strong and independent enough that he doesn’t need to

[limpid summit]

You have not refuted the fact that he created the Shrumals

[whole holly]

whether or not Mister Mushroom is Higher Being

[limpid summit]

And don’t argue in bad faith and say that’s biological

[whole holly]

i said that it could very well be biological

[limpid summit]

He literally creates a hive mind

Independent of himself

[whole holly]

how is that bad faith?

[terse warren]

hell nah

[whole holly]

please provide irrefutable evidence of that

[limpid summit]

What do you mean

[terse warren]

is there even any evidence of this

[limpid summit]

Spawn of self their minds unite

This poem is from MM’s perspective

It’s not about the spawn of self

That just means they spawn themselves

[terse warren]

which poem

[limpid summit]

But “their minds unite”

He spoke the path

The HK riddle tablet

[terse warren]

actually link anything i beg

[whole holly]

that's what i think, but AppleEgg thinks that since definition of Higher Being is vague enough that Mister Mushroom can fit there

[limpid summit]

|We speak the path of the Master Herald, he who would signal an Age's end.

Spawn of self, their minds unite,
Aside the source of acid blight,
Aglow in darkest, winding depths,
Winds all howl above fossilstone steps,
Monarchflys in air set still,
To Root's domain and snail once shrill,
Path of Wyrm, at new lands entered,
There journeys end. The kingdom ventured.

[terse warren]

here are the prerequisites to be a higher being: the game calls you such

[limpid summit]

The definition of Higher Being is a being that exists above all others

[limpid summit]

Unn and NMH

And TK, really

[terse warren]

meh?

definition which you took from where

[whole holly]

Mister Mushroom isn't above all others just because he observes, that doesn't mean being above anything in terms of power level, caste, nature or abilities or whatever definition even means

[limpid summit]

The literal only thing Team Cherry has said about the matter ever

Let me pull it up

[limpid summit]

Power level caste nature abilities?

[whole holly]

they fill criteria that Mister Mushroom doesn't fill

[limpid summit]

You must admit that you’re making things up here

[frosty gate]

I hate how he says

[limpid summit]

TC doesn’t say that

[terse warren]

ok so the poem is not from MM's perspective

[whole holly]

what ever being above all others mean

[limpid summit]

Mister Mushroom is at least worshipped by the Shrumals

[frosty gate]

"Higher Beings like Radiance and Wyrm and Root" Instead of "Radiance, Pale King and White Lady"

[limpid summit]

They speak his path repeatedly and regard him highly, just like Hornet

[terse warren]

he is referred to as master not as a god

[frosty gate]

Because it sounds as if the species is inherently Higher Beings

[terse warren]

he's their Aristoteles

[foggy fractal]

hi :D

[limpid summit]

He is the Master Herald

[terse warren]

or Plato

or Socrates

[whole holly]

it could be possible meaning of being above all others as it not defined

[terse warren]

hello Andy

[limpid summit]

Mister Mushroom isn’t a simple philosopher

[frosty gate]

Hi Andy

[whole holly]

but we know thanks to greyroot that, it isn't necessarily true

[limpid summit]

He has extremely potent foresight, talks to creatures we can’t envision

[frosty gate]

Her Parasite took down a Higher Being

[limpid summit]

They doing too much

[whole holly]

wait actually i want source of him having foresight

[frosty gate]

That in itself is a fucking feat

[whole holly]

sure, but GMS was weakened and stuff, we can still rationalize it

[terse warren]

you dont really need foresight to realize Pharloom is gonna collapse

[limpid summit]

The fact that you can find the riddle tablet before the age of Hallownest even begins to near its end means his prescience signals to the Mushrooms that he will arrive

[terse warren]

Hallownest is already dead

[limpid summit]

Again it’s pretty clear that this is the case through the Shrumals

[terse warren]

the whole game takes place during the "end of Hallownest"

[frosty gate]

I mean but if in Weaver Queen, Hornet consumes GMS and becomes The Weaver Queen (Who is an HB)
Whatever came out of the Cursed ending would most likely be a Higher Being

[limpid summit]

They place great emphasis on Pale King’s foresight protecting them

[whole holly]

that could be just nature of kingdoms, all of them fall and it is possible to guess hallownest's trajectory because nothing lasts forever

[limpid summit]

It’s almost analogous to PK’s light compared to Rad

They accept his presence because his foresight is familiar to them

[limpid summit]

It literally describes exactly when and where he appears lmao what are you saying

[whole holly]

yeah but it imples that species itself don't make higher being and power can be attained given opportunity and potential

[limpid summit]

You can’t argue he doesn’t have some sort of prescience the hill you have to die on is whether that prescience means he’s actually not important somehow

Which is equally folly

He doesn’t have to cause change to exist above all others as his powers enable him to completely circumvent any and all change

[frosty gate]

I mean yeah, I can agree with that, I'm just saying that the way TC phrased it back then sounds off

And being honest, chances are all Wyrms were indeed Higher Beings

[terse warren]

??? how does that indicate foresight

[limpid summit]

Do you want me to rephrase

[terse warren]

if i say that once the US President dies I will go to XYZ countries in this order does this mean i have foresight

[limpid summit]

???

He signals the end of an age

He doesn’t appear after

[terse warren]

yeah??

mfw the crossroads turn infected

[limpid summit]

He is literally called the Master Herald he heralds change

So, the Herald visits this land too... If he is here, now, then great change or a savage end is inevitable. He would care to see nothing else...

He precedes it

[terse warren]

yes

you don't exactly need foresight to tell Hallownest is gonna die soon

[whole holly]

he just says he will appear in inevitable end of kingdom, which even doesn't require foresight,

[crimson patio]

He’s like a harbinger
When he arrives people know big change is gonna happen

[whole holly]

he is sign, if anything

[gentle aspen]

I mean

[limpid summit]

He’s not in Hallownest how would he know that

[gentle aspen]

he came after everything

[terse warren]

"He's not in hallownest" says who

[frosty gate]

He came just as the Change was gonna happen

[gentle aspen]

which would require some foreknowledge

[terse warren]

he comes after you kill the 3 dreamers id say it's obvious that if something like THAT happens big shit is gonna go down

[limpid summit]

His path is specifically set out by the tablet and then he leaves Hallownest

You think he’s just bumming around until whoop time to fall into place

[terse warren]

he leaves hallownest after the change not before???

[limpid summit]

No

The change is killing Rad or sealing her

[gentle aspen]

“It’s obvious” okay but it isn’t as if he wasn’t already there and his path was already outlined in advance

[crimson patio]

But that said “change or savage end”

Why are we fixated on “savage end”

He came to witness TK bringing about the change to hallownest’s stasis too

How would he know this some insignificant vessel that looks just like any other vessels that had died in others’ hands would be different if he has no future knowledge of it?

[frosty gate]

Isn't it easier to all agree that the dude, being a Mushroom and all, can literally sense the state of the world and travel through those places however the hell he does?

[terse warren]

again if i say i will go to X countries in order when the president dies do i have foresight?

[gentle aspen]

he is gonna have some sort of massive world sense or something of that like

[frosty gate]

Mushrooms think collectively irl or something like that

[limpid summit]

The president is not dead

[frosty gate]

They're all interconnected

[gentle aspen]

it isn’t as though the death of the dreamers is some sort of obvious thing everyone can feel

[limpid summit]

If you say you are going to X areas right before the president dies and he does

[whole holly]

knowing that doesn't require foresight as change is inevitable and his prediction is too vague to be reliable prediction

[terse warren]

they're literally a hivemind if i have thousands of spies everywhere im gonna find out shit

[limpid summit]

Wdym

[gentle aspen]

I’m not saying he has foresight but his sensory abilities are insane

[limpid summit]

It canonically results in an Age’s end it is reliable

[frosty gate]

I would say he has World Sense rather than Foresight

[terse warren]

appleegg is arguing he's a higher being fyi

[limpid summit]

He definitely has world sense

But how is he able to tell the Shrumals to speak his path if the age hasn’t even ended yet

There is no indication that the age has ended

[gentle aspen]

He’s immortal can fly has some sort of special role among the mushrooms

[limpid summit]

You can find the riddle tablet before even killing one dreamer

[frosty gate]

Which to me is funny because I just imagine MM closing his eyes and seein 99% in his brain and saying "Oh yeah i gotta check that shit out"

[crimson patio]

In Mr. Mushroom’s case it’s like saying “imma go to this country today because something big is gonna happen soon in the future”

And 5 months later the president dies

The president’s health appears normal until he died from a sudden stroke, no signs, nothing

[terse warren]

Wardenflies can also fly

[terse warren]

how exactly did hallownest's health appear normal

the king is literally dead

[limpid summit]

Mister Mushroom is described by TC as omnipresent, ever present, representative of the greater journey

[limpid summit]

It is in stasis

[terse warren]

half the kingdom infected

[gentle aspen]

😐

[limpid summit]

As WL says

[gentle aspen]

Don’t be stupid bro mushrooms don’t fly

[limpid summit]

The age hasn’t ended

But the riddle tablet says it will

[gentle aspen]

and the dead coming back to life is a recent event to boot

he’s a powerful entity

[terse warren]

the mother of the wardenflies:

1. Can fly
2. Is clearly important to flies
3. I haven't seen one die of old age yet

[gentle aspen]

strawmanning points isn’t gonna make my point any less valid

[terse warren]

yeah but saying she's a HB is funy

[gentle aspen]

twisting “we haven’t seen him die” to him quite literally calling himself immortal is a strawman

fraud

[limpid summit]

Wyrms pull bugs into their thrall, Till ages pass and kingdoms fall, Caps and shells may fall to dust, But Mr Mushroom readjusts...

This is literally him saying “the entire history of a game is just a simple stop on my eternal journey and nothing can hold me down” and people will still be like oh he’s normal he just has the sight

Or say because he doesn’t have soul powers he isn’t powerful

[foggy fractal]

aw they don't?

[frosty gate]

I don't like the word Powerful because it sounds like Powerscaling but he is unique in what he does

[whole holly]

as most Mister Mushroom is same level as Steel Seer Zi, in terms of abilities however

[frosty gate]

Least badass MM line btw

[terse warren]

anyways the guy doesn't really feel like a HB

[limpid summit]

Zi doesn’t talk to unseen forces

[frosty gate]

I think some do

[terse warren]

what as he ever done literally

[limpid summit]

“Fathomless” creatures

[sinful nimbus]

Facts don't care about your feelings

[terse warren]

at most he's like, Hornet equivalent

[frosty gate]

Just watch

[whole holly]

hallucination or craziness

[foggy fractal]

such as?

[frosty gate]

You don't have to do stuff to be Powerful

[limpid summit]

Bro 💔

[sinful nimbus]

My goat has outlived countless wyrms

[whole holly]

no fact confirms Mister Mushroom is a Higher Being

[edgy nebula]

tk is the strongest character in hk and most of what they did in silksong was look at you

dont see why mm cant be a hb and watch stuff

[sinful nimbus]

Its not confirmed ofc but its not a ridiculous notion

[limpid summit]

The shtick of Wyrms (higher beings) is creating eternal kingdoms
Mister Mushroom outlives these kingdoms they are literally like to him how a Wyrm would view a mortal bug

[whole holly]

wow he was outlived person who died of unknown causes, so has Emilitia

[limpid summit]

Yet somehow he is not a higher being

[frosty gate]

The way he speaks nonchalantly about Wyrms makes me think it is confirmed

[frosty gate]

Ok not mushrooms but the spores do

[foggy fractal]

true true

[sinful nimbus]

MM's dialogue implies he's immortal

[crimson patio]

He’s there to witness the change that TK is going to bring about to end the static state of the long dead hallownest

TK brought CHANGE to the kingdom that has NOT CHANGED in a long long time

He has no way of knowing this CHANGE would happen, but he appeared there before it even happened to see it

[sinful nimbus]

Which is pretty unprecedented in HK

[frosty gate]

And awfully old

[gentle aspen]

yeah because an omnipresent immortal entity that heralds the end of an age is equivalent to a half spider half god who can fight well and spin silk

[whole holly]

HK was varied life spans

[crimson patio]

Damn that didnt reply…

[foggy fractal]

hornet can fight well?

[gentle aspen]

Varied lifespans is different from immortality

[limpid summit]

Lies and truths must be discussed...
Stone will break and steel shall rust...
Caps and shells may fall to dust...
But Mister Mushroom readjusts...

[gentle aspen]

If you’re arguing he’s just long lived that’s blatantly false

[limpid summit]

He’s above the Citadel too

All iterations of it

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway I think he's horizontal to higher beings and regular bugs

[terse warren]

Hornet doesn't seem too mortal age wise

[limpid summit]

Lies - GMS
Stone - Weavers
Steel - Conductors

[sinful nimbus]

He doesn't interact with anyone he exists in his own world

[foggy fractal]

what does horizontal mean

[limpid summit]

Weavers faded

[sinful nimbus]

He's his own thing

[limpid summit]

They were extremely old

There’s no indication Hornet is immortal

[terse warren]

Hornet is not a weaver

[whole holly]

immortality isn't confirmed, maybe his lifespan just exceeds kingdom's which is not unwarranted

[limpid summit]

She’s more Weaver than Wyrm

[terse warren]

???

[gentle aspen]

yes it is

[crimson patio]

“Hornet is not a weaver” ok we’re done

She’s half weaver half wyrm she’s BOTH

[foggy fractal]

oh ok

[terse warren]

ok i meant she's not JUST a weaver come on

[gentle aspen]

He literally outlives wyrms who don’t die from old age

[whole holly]

at most it is implied, but why don't you give evidence

[gentle aspen]

THE EVIDENCE WAS ALREADY POSTED

[sinful nimbus]

"Caps and shells may fall to dust,
but Mister Mushroom readjusts" 🗣️

[limpid summit]

The Wyrm becomes beacon, minds expanded, to yield, to devote. Eternity in progress

Wyrms pull bugs into their thrall till ages pass and kingdoms fall

[whole holly]

you mean one who died from unknown causes, so did Emilitia

[limpid summit]

He is pluralizing the rule of Wyrms

He eclipses the Higher Being status of PK and others

[whole holly]

somebody pull full quote

[limpid summit]

Of what

And charge in progeny cursed?

[whole holly]

maybe not all wyrms are higher beings

[whole holly]

yeah

[limpid summit]

Okay

That just means he doubly expected to rule forever

[cedar skiff]

dude wow the term higher being really sucks is what im realising its so loose

[limpid summit]

He charged PV with upholding that

[limpid summit]

In what other manner do you suggest they pull bugs into their thrall

[terse warren]

literally team cherry said they are

[sinful nimbus]

Its basically just a term for deities i don't think it needs to be super defined

[limpid summit]

We aren’t given much else

[cedar skiff]

im fine with it theres just sub terms like pale being that kinda muddle it

[terse warren]

ok that's like the weakest evidence you could've presented cmon

[limpid summit]

What?

[cedar skiff]

i just accept that team cherry wants to aurafarm in their dialogue. nothing matters

[sinful nimbus]

There's also Team Cherry using the term higher being in other contexts

[terse warren]

pale being isn't a sub term

[whole holly]

they said wyrm and root, not in plural form plus we know roots aren't inherently Higher Beings

[limpid summit]

That’s what higher beings do lol

Wyrms pull bugs into the thrall

[terse warren]

"we know" fro what

[foggy fractal]

🗣️ higher beings these words are for you alone!

[edgy nebula]

greyroot

[limpid summit]

They likely use powers like the beacon

[whole holly]

Greyroot who is another root

[terse warren]

yeah it's not like they're the only ones who can do that

[limpid summit]

Anyway

[terse warren]

and we know she's not a higher being of some kind because

[edgy nebula]

this topic sucks can we talk about something else

[limpid summit]

Nika what is your definition of a higher being

[cedar skiff]

the terms get used for similar things so often its really just eh

[frosty gate]

FUCK DOING THE WORK, WE ONLY SPECTATE THINGS GOING TO HELL OR FIXING THEMSELVES

[terse warren]

me when everyone is having a discussion that's somewhat civil (this must be stopped)?

[whole holly]

she is not confirmed to be one, nor does she exibit traits of other Higher Beings

[limpid summit]

What are traits of other higher beings

And why do those have to be assigned to a concrete definition is my real question

Beyond what TC decided to give us

[crimson patio]

I mean
Pale being is just a completely different thing from higher being

A bug can just randomly be pale we have no clue what they even do except some hints at supposed urges to colonize

While higher being is like god equivalents
They are higher than normal bugs

[terse warren]

i mean that's kinda how terms work

[foggy fractal]

ya we must stop this! where are the mods...

[sinful nimbus]

It doesn't need to have a concrete definition but Mister Mushroom is fairly different from every higher being despite his powerful traits

[limpid summit]

No it’s not

[spark valve]

(actually it really isn't)

[whole holly]

because trying to define characters as higher beings while definition being to vague kinda warrants unsureness

[limpid summit]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1380233368523898991/1461738643222827223/IMG_0250.png?ex=696ba5b2&is=696a5432&hm=d5256892fcc69d980bbc24ca29ab5aec5df5ab88c54ccb218007938cae773ecf&

[terse warren]

ok see yeah

[sinful nimbus]

So like lumping him in a group that's really different from him is strange

[terse warren]

he literally has nothing in common with every other higher being

call me back when he's mushroom king

[limpid summit]

World Sense

[whole holly]

notice how they didn't say above all beings, just strong which isn't definition

[cedar skiff]

its awesome that theres this much genuine discussion around team cherry self indulgent troll character

[sinful nimbus]

Team Cherry designed an entire god to fill a nook in HK and then Silksong pulls up with the Shakra Far Fields room 🥀

[crimson patio]

I’d say he’s unique and thus should just be in his own category called “Mr. Mushroom”

[frosty gate]

To be fair, the Lady is different too, with the exception of her being Pale

[limpid summit]

TikTok powerscaler brain requires mister mushroom to have mahoraga adaptation and soul lasers to be deemed a higher beings 💔

[terse warren]

you can get that without being hb

[sinful nimbus]

Not especially

She influenced a lot of stuff directly

[cedar skiff]

if only there was this much genuine discussion about silksongs themes and such

[foggy fractal]

ring ring ring
hey you won't believe this...

[limpid summit]

I’m not saying that’s the baseline for him being one

I was just saying he has it

To an extreme degree

[terse warren]

silksong deciding there have to be 500 dead ends wherever you go

[frosty gate]

Like what?

[sinful nimbus]

The vessel project for one

[limpid summit]

He only seeks out Pharloom because of what Hornet has done relatively recently

[sinful nimbus]

Queen's Gardens also

[spark valve]

I mean have you seen her gardens

[foggy fractal]

500 cigarettes...

[crimson patio]

Honestly i can be convinced something is a higher being

If they have super powerful powers beyond that of normal bugs or even half-immortals

They are higher
So we call them higher beings
Ez lah

[frosty gate]

Was it stated that the overgrow was her doing?

[spark valve]

does it have to be

[frosty gate]

She helped with that one, but it was PK's thing

[terse warren]

beastfly higher being got it

[crimson patio]

Idk just the ability to spawn 7 billion vessels is already beyond mortal capabilities

[sinful nimbus]

That's still her pretty directly interacting with the world unlike Mister Mushroom who just chills and watches stuff

[frosty gate]

I mean, the Gardens could just be a prettier place than Greenpath

[whole holly]

Higher Being is a being that has unfathomable abilities relating to some major force

[crimson patio]

So close that’s a normal bug

[spark valve]

and it has unique megaflora because...

[limpid summit]

He made the Mushroom Clan (racist)

[sinful nimbus]

White Palace also has megaflora

[whole holly]

Mister Mushroom is like Steel Seer Zi with different purpose

[frosty gate]

Oh wait wait, I'm not saying she's like MM, i'm just saying she acts different from the other HBs imo

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think Pale King would dabble with plant magic more than the higher being who is confirmed to have plant magic (White Lady Delicate Flower dialogue)

[terse warren]

meh?

Zi didn't even know where her best bro was

that's quite different from the level of awareness MM displayed

[whole holly]

i mean MM doesn't know when hornet is talking to them directly as well

[frosty gate]

Fair, but what I mean she's just a weird Hb, not that she is like MM

I know she actually does shit

[spark valve]

most hbs are weird

[whole holly]

slightly bigger scale... slightly

[limpid summit]

Yeah he does

He always recognizes you after you speak

[frosty gate]

But they kinda follow a pattern do they not? At the very least they all want a following

[whole holly]

most of the time he doesn't react in any way

[limpid summit]

He usually says one other line but he can’t just end his conversation because Hornet is nagging

[spark valve]

not really

[terse warren]

anwyays he's too different from all other hbs i dont think he is one

[limpid summit]

TK doesn’t NMH doesn’t WL doesn’t

[frosty gate]

NMH has the Kin, that's a following

[limpid summit]

That’s it

Those are NMH

[frosty gate]

Still a Following

[spark valve]

one and all clan and master

[whole holly]

why they are unfathomable abilities and are higher than bugs in that aspect

[limpid summit]

You can’t follow yourself

[limpid summit]

Huh

[spark valve]

nh making alt accounts

[frosty gate]

If you are insane enough you can

[frosty gate]

There's literally a god in the books I'm reading that does exactly this

[limpid summit]

NMH has an immortality ritual TK unites the Void WL makes stuff grow

A lot

These are all things that place them above mortal bugs

[spark valve]

is that book hollow knight because if not claiming the nightmare heart is doing that is a bit odd

[terse warren]

Wanderer's Journal is a bit different from what I remembered

[frosty gate]

Why else would he create dozens of minis

[whole holly]

they both do have connection with major forces with essence, void or soul to unfathomable degree and have influence on outside world

[spark valve]

to gather the flame

[frosty gate]

He uses like 9 of the hundreds that he has

[limpid summit]

I don’t understand this major forces distinction

[whole holly]

i mean if Mister Mushroom was Higher being why doesn't Godseeker's seek him?

[limpid summit]

This isn’t a hallmark of their HB status

[frosty gate]

I feel like the Kin, even if they're basically NMH, still count as a following

[whole holly]

because all higher beings have that connection

[limpid summit]

WL a domestic being evades attunement with ease
You don’t think Mister Mushroom could do the same

[frosty gate]

He also had Grimm and Brumm

And Divine i think her name was

[limpid summit]

Outlives higher beings he can stop some randoms trying to attune him

[whole holly]

they are sensed at least, Mister Mushroom would at least be sensed if he was higher being of sort

[whole holly]

evidence?

[limpid summit]

The game

He readjusts that’s his entire thing

[whole holly]

i would say it is from the fact that he has no godly resonance

[limpid summit]

Godly resonance is arbitrary anyway

Quirrel has no godly resonance

He’s stronger than half the bosses

That’s not an argument

[crimson patio]

In any case…

Imma just say MM is a secret third thing

Game’s Easter Egg, changes nothing in the game but leaves profound questions

And leave it at that

[whole holly]

Godseeker's sense Gods even if they try to evade

[spark valve]

pretty much

[limpid summit]

I don’t understand what you’re trying to catch me in

[foggy fractal]

a trap

[limpid summit]

He’s obviously powerful enough regardless of HB status to draw the Godseeker’s attention but doesn’t

Because godly resonance is random and a gameplay thing

[whole holly]

physical strength is unrelated though

[limpid summit]

Yes

Because godly resonance is a gameplay mechanic poorly made canon

Like the rest of godhome

[whole holly]

Godseeker's sense every higher being but not Mister Mushroom who is higher being by your definition

[limpid summit]

My definition?

Oh you mean TC’s definition

Nika regardless of the conversation I think a being as aware and separate as him would simply shrug off any attempt at attunement

I’m not even trying to argue his HB status here

[whole holly]

existing above bugs by arbitrary and metaphorical way... that fits in your biases and use vaguely defined term to powerscale your fav mister mushroom

[limpid summit]

What are my biases

I’m using what Team Cherry has stated

[whole holly]

can he? do you know how evasion works? can you say that and prove he can evade

[limpid summit]

And literally nothing else

[limpid summit]

No but the mechanics of evasion and attunement itself aren’t clearly explained because the Godtuner isn’t even actually required to do so

So that would be pointless to attempt

[whole holly]

he is stronger in way that is so arbitrary and metaphorical that he simply not in any way similar to Higher Beings TC has confirmed

[limpid summit]

Again regardless of status
This dude’s whole shtick is readjusting to things that topple higher beings
It’s within the grounds of his power set, whatever it is, to shrug off the whining of some mortal bugs

He doesn’t need to be a higher being for that

Who he is, is enough

[whole holly]

and he isn't, nor is any way similar to one

[whole holly]

yeah, lame easter egg character

[stray fog]

This is somehow still ongoing

[limpid summit]

Is this a snail shaman

He doesn’t really look like these guys

[edgy nebula]

no that's bell hermit

[limpid summit]

No that’s not bell hermit anymore

In act 3 he’s Snail Shaman #3

Worst character throw of all time

[sinful nimbus]

He don't even call you a slave 💔

My goat washed

[foggy fractal]

🐐 🧼 ?

[limpid summit]

I think we can see who is biased here

[whole holly]

i wonder if he would consider Mister Mushroom a slave?

[limpid summit]

Dude MM isn’t even in my top 5 greatest Lakers

[stray fog]

Hornet would slime him if he called her a slave, after what happened at the end of act 2

[limpid summit]

But you despise him

You’re looking for anything to downscale him

[whole holly]

i don't despise him, he doesn't add anything to game

[limpid summit]

Reading comprehension devil

[whole holly]

anything that i like anyways

[limpid summit]

I like him within the context of the game

There’s a lot of parallels between him/the shrumals PK and Rad

Strength in the shared mind, compared to the melancholy of disparity offered by the beacon

Then Rad offers union bereft of thought

Because she’s nature

Eventually everything collapses

But he’s the journey

Events that seem world shaking to one bug may not even register to another

Kingdoms rise and fall and he’s there to remind us that it’s all a cycle

But even though he’s seen tons of stuff like it he still learns to appreciate the places he visits

[manic briar]

Well, he's a snail and does magic, checks out to me

[limpid summit]

In both games he places emphasis on the beauty of Hallownest and Pharloom despite their times ending

He’s the journey that is what he represents

The ultimate web of every event

And he’ll readjust

[whole holly]

Mister Mushroom is just side character meant to offer insight about journey of the game, but Team Cherry did bad way of canonizing him withing game and explaining him without players confusing him for higher being term that Team Cherry has already badly defined being nobody even knows what existing above all others entails, higher being term is also used in multiple context, Mister Mushroom is just Master Herald, he doesn't need to be anything other than that

[limpid summit]

HB being used in multiple contexts doesn’t discount it as a term

It’s used in the context of higher thought which places you on the level of gods

Like a tree of knowledge thing

It’s like how we would say someone with crazy skill at something is “godlike” colloquially

I agree that it’s weird that MM doesn’t take a different form in SS

That would have been a little more interesting

But he’s still cool

[whole holly]

where is line for becoming higher being and existing above all others, is it only related to sapience? as you seem to argue

[limpid summit]

Nika now I know you’re arguing in bad faith

Come on man you’re better than this

[crimson patio]

Dear lord y’all are still at it…

[limpid summit]

No now we’re just yapping

[whole holly]

i am not really even interested in any position i just wanna know his position

[whole holly]

i am not even arguing, just posing questions, how is that bad faith?

[limpid summit]

When someone asks you what a god is you’re not going to use the colloquial definition

In the context of the King’s Pass tablets and Zi’s dialogue, “higher” refers to sapience and autonomy

In the context of the TC AMA and GMS stuff, higher refers to beings that exists above all others

That’s the beauty of words

[whole holly]

i mean this discussion was somewhat philosophical, so clarification ensures we are on same page

[limpid summit]

One word can mean something else in another context

Pretty neat

[whole holly]

beings that exists above all others is still to vague of a definition, which is my point, because Fayforn exists above lot of bugs, Skrill is at the top and highest altitude, it is definitely not raw power either

[limpid summit]

Ofc it’s neither of those

Come on

You see why mister mushroom could be considered a Higher Being right

[whole holly]

but what is it? exactly?

[limpid summit]

You just personally don’t agree with it

Which I understand

[whole holly]

with sapience sure?

[limpid summit]

I’m aware you know what I mean

[limpid summit]

What is a higher being?

[whole holly]

it is not personal disagreement, rather than existing above all others can be applied to some characters in very specific sense, if i wanted to have bad faith discussion i would say Fayforn and personal favourite npcs exist above all others in way i can explain

[limpid summit]

Okay

I challenge you to explain

[whole holly]

what is "existing above all others"

[whole holly]

explain your position first...

[limpid summit]

What I think existing above all others is?

[whole holly]

sure, in way that applies to all higher beings and mister mushroom at the same time

[limpid summit]

I would say it mostly refers to ability as the confirmed higher beings have powers beyond what even strong mortal bugs like Shamans Weavers and PV can achieve. But I wouldn’t entirely say it’s outside the bounds of TC’s definition to describe a much higher perspective as evidence of existing above all others.

Mortals worry about making their mark but you have Higher Beings acting on a grand scale, doing things like perpetuating themselves infinitely (NMH) or ruling for eternity (PK)

In my opinion, the idea of an eternal journey without regard for things that draw in mortals and Higher Beings represents the highest perspective one is shown to attain in HK

Mister Mushroom’s outlook, and his own immortality that allows him to see it through, places him above all others

This is what I think

[whole holly]

so scale of time/mortality is what places higher beings above others?

[limpid summit]

I understand dismissing him as a higher being because he isn’t narratively presented as even similar to someone like Unn who is not confirmed

But his outlook and status is clearly so far beyond even other bugs that it’s weird to say he’s not deified

And while Higher Being is just the HK term for what we call a god I think it’s a fitting label

[whole holly]

scale of abilities and mortality, his sensory abilities can be higher scale but maybe equivalent of World Sense, evasion of destruction, and immortality/great life-span aren't enough even if he is existing above all others in arbitrary way, but his abilities are sensory, and not being affected by major occurrences may be side effect of him having grand sensory abilities

[limpid summit]

I don’t think your use of arbitrary is valid

The entire point of the game is that things end

Mister Mushroom exists above that

He’s almost like Void

He denies Time

[whole holly]

we get beings with similar abilities such as Steel Clan, if they traveled and sensed occurrences they could do that as well

[limpid summit]

“Steel shall rust”

Downscale

[whole holly]

he exists outside of that, not above, it is huge distinction, because one is fact and other is speculation that furthers him into HB discussion

[limpid summit]

That’s true

And it’s why ultimately it’s truly opinions based

I find his detachment to be proof of a broader outlook that minimizes even world shaking events in his eyes

You do not

We can agree to disagree

[stray fog]

Could those "distant sandy lands" be the sandsea waste? 🤔

(this is mr mushroom's dialogue)

[whole holly]

that is just evasion, he is not immune to destruction but he has to readjust and evade to be safe, as readjustment implies his state of safety is conditional

[limpid summit]

This is totally dumb semantics but the fact that the poem says “But” he readjusts rather than “And” places him as the ultimate

Rather than being outside doing his own thing

“But” implies a subversion

[limpid summit]

Wdym

He doesn’t have to readjust to be safe

He readjusts because he wants to and his journey is done

There is no indication that these things that make kingdoms fall actually present a danger to him

He leaves gracefully and joyously

He’s just screwing around

[whole holly]

readjustment implies he is not adjusted in first place from effects of kingdoms

[limpid summit]

No it implies that it is a poem that requires rhythm

[whole holly]

can you give full quote of this

[limpid summit]

Readjust just means he adjusts again

He’s done this over and over

[limpid summit]

Lies and truths must be discussed...
Stone will break and steel shall rust...
Caps and shells may fall to dust...
But Mister Mushroom readjusts...

There’s a couple interesting readings of this actually

You could say he’s eclipsing the entire history of the citadel

Lies and truths (GMS)
Stone (Weavers)
Steel (Conductors)

[whole holly]

words have meaning though

[limpid summit]

Or you could say lies and truths are the entire Citadel, and stone and steel could be foreshadowing the Masters

Growstone and Steel

[whole holly]

ehhh, it implies he was not adjusted beforehand, there is inherent cause of his adjustion

[limpid summit]

His adjusting is him leaving

That’s all

He can visit watch and leave

Mortals and higher beings are more intrinsically tied to the events he witnessed

But he’s an external force

Him readjusting is just him shrugging off whatever caused the age to end

[whole holly]

he is game commentator character

[limpid summit]

That’s true

But it doesn’t minimize his canon role

[whole holly]

which is just watching and staying away from harm

[limpid summit]

HK is not diegetically a video game

[whole holly]

i want to switch different topic

[limpid summit]

Fair

But let me just say

Hornet never once is like

It’s dangerous here

She just wants to get his attention and talk

He isn’t at risk because he’s not just some dude

He’s not Ellina

[whole holly]

which is ironically Father of the Flame, who was also subject to discussion about Higher Being status

[limpid summit]

Hell nah 💔💔

Okay let’s talk

[whole holly]

commune with him because he is revered like Fayforn, in fact Fayforn also communicates with him

[limpid summit]

Yeah

Pretty cool right

[whole holly]

i don't think objects/totems are even in discussion of being Higher than other bugs

[limpid summit]

I don’t think she’s a HB

No ofc not

FotF is not higher

I headcanon that it’s an effigy of the NMH though

From a Grimm Troupe long past

[whole holly]

but Wisps are alive in the way, in unique way, they are Lifeforms that are formed from some king of phenomenon

[limpid summit]

Any bug who would light the nightmare lantern would see scarlet flame assumedly

TK just already happens to have a tool allowing it to

[edgy nebula]

you can tell fotf is related to the grimm troupe cause he’s red

[limpid summit]

I think they’re mini unraveleds

Like just dreg thoughts

[limpid summit]

Dude NMH is subtly everywhere

All signs point to another Grimm Troupe dlc ughhh

[edgy nebula]

trobbio? Grimm, hornet? Grimm, the skarr? Probably grimm

dont get me started on red memory…

[limpid summit]

Heart sacrifices that draw you into a red memory is genuinely something

[edgy nebula]

unironically the burning bugs could be grimm related

[gentle aspen]

Shut up

Oh my hod

[limpid summit]

What

Come on nux

[edgy nebula]

father, the fire, the red clothing, it’s a little on the nose

i wouldnt be surprised if it was revealed to be grimm related but at the same time thatd be lame

[limpid summit]

Yeah true

I just think a Grimm dlc is going to happen he was one of the most popular parts of HK

[edgy nebula]

it’s possible

[limpid summit]

And I would guess TC knows that

Trobbio seems like the perfect willing troupe member as well

[edgy nebula]

i wouldnt call pharloom a dead kingdom though

[limpid summit]

God I wish they just concluded his story in the base game

[limpid summit]

I think act 3 it would be

The citadel is gone

[edgy nebula]

maybe he’ll harvest the nightmare essence from karak, verdania, and the likes

[limpid summit]

Maybe

The only thing that would make me roll my eyes is if the Grimm that appears is suggested to be our Grimmchild grown up

Bobbitt Nika do you think Red Memory WL is just a memory responding like how WL would

Or an actual WL psychic link like Hornet Godhome

I would like to believe the latter but I would say it’s inconclusive

[edgy nebula]

wl has been shown to be really powerful, but im not entirely sure if she’d be aware

these are hornet’s memories, not her dreams, so itd be weird for the real wl to be there

[limpid summit]

I just think the bridge when Hornet wakes up and talks to her is interesting

This may be for coding’s sake but WL’s dialogue changes to real time as well

She says wrest it forth from the remembrance but like they are in a memory so that makes sense regardless

[past cypress]

Wisp Thicket seems like a standalone thing

And it kinda makes sense as a standalone thing

People find magic wisps in a forest, cult forms to worship them, their leader (?) is turned into an effigy and they survive the Haunting by burning the string or something

[whole holly]

White Lady can sense when we is Dream Nailed, and maybe similar thing occurred in Red Memory

[whole holly]

being Karak discusser and having green prince pfp is kinda counterintuitive

[limpid summit]

Yeah that’s what I think

But it’s like

Would she have to be sleeping or could she just world sense it

[whole holly]

it is conscious thing, she can evade attunement, she can sense being dream nailed, there are lot of things

[low oracle]

Higher Beings can most definitely sense when being interacted with, basically anywhere. They are all basically dream/memory related too, hence they can't be studied for weaknesses.
An interesting thing to consider would be the non-Higher Beings capable of sensing the dreamnail. These characters include:

-Midwife (not necessarilly fully aware of what is happening, simply shouting "GET OUT" and similar dialogue. It seems she notices something is wrong, just not specifically what and where it comes from.)

-Hornet (semi-Higher Being)

-Nosk (possibly, as it seemingly reflects the Knight's thoughts [...])

-Greyroot (doesn't have needolin dialogue like regular bugs, seemingly purposefully hiding it)

-The guy in Kingdoms edge whose ass has a hitbox (Not a Higher Being, yet of greater power than regular bugs)

-Seer (moth tribe)

I probably missed some, if anyone can tell me I'll edit my message.

[whole holly]

Fayforn is notable

[low oracle]

I forgot her Needolin dialogue, so I don't know. It is heavily implied that Fayhorn is a Higher Being, and Nyleth could be assumed to be in between the two categories (no explicit powers, but many similarities to Unn and Greenpath).

[limpid summit]

I would say Bardoon’s ability to read it is tied to his general awareness

[whole holly]

Fayforn has none like Greyroot, Shadow Creeper has none as well in Silksong

[limpid summit]

He probably even has better sight than Mask Maker

He recognizes our union

Midwife…

She says the Brood is the most intelligent species

Maybe their intelligence also translates to awareness

Nosk idk if it reflects TKs thoughts because Winged is the same

Whatever natural ability that lets it read minds probably allows it to mask its own

[whole holly]

"..." Dream Nail dialogue is equilevant of zero needolin dialogue in Silksong like Shadow Creeper has none is Silksong

[limpid summit]

I think in SS the dots are interchangeable with no dialogue

[cunning carbon]

The seamstress is so stupid, acting like she’s in danger if hornet is around her. If she was really worried about the citadel, she would move, she’s a stones throw away from fourth chorus, a robot sent by the citadel to kill her and she chills with it in her front yard with her blade in its skull

[limpid summit]

Cause Shadow Creepers and Chargers and Gloomsacs have none

But Gargants have “…”

There’s really nothing different about them

Blackthreaded enemies have none in general it’s inconsistent

[whole holly]

Nosk and Skynx may be same species if that is case

[limpid summit]

So TRUE nika

Common nika W