sk-lore

[frosty gate]

The Pharlids? They are technically Weavers

GMS took those and force-evolved them

[crimson patio]

I mean we can speculate but we really don’t know…

I think it’s the weavers, though

[frosty gate]

It makes way more sense it was the Weavers

[crimson patio]

For revealing their not-divine nature

[frosty gate]

Apostasy and all that

Exactly!

Conductors wouldn't have much a reason to cage her for that since they basically wiped the Citadel clean of Weaver influence

FS revealing the truth would actually benefit them

[spark valve]

Well not really there at least was a time where they were leveraging the weavers’ divinity to prop themselves up (pious isamor for instance, unless you want to interpret that as during weaver rule but it would be a bit odd to describe the kingdom as bequeathed by the first children)

And the moss home tablet worshipping a spired weaver also indicates worship probably continued at least for a while after conductors took over

[halcyon merlin]

i hate your pfp

i keep thinking the dragon is the lower part of his body

[low oracle]

Says who exactly?

[low oracle]

It isn't?

[halcyon merlin]

it isnt

its just a guy on top of a dragon

[low oracle]

Shortass dragon

[limpid summit]

Was logically part of it

Before the Citadel was golden and opulent, the pilgrims worshipped the Weavers more than they did the place itself

If First Sinner were to reveal the Weavers were ordinary bugs, then pilgrims would work less hard and GMS would stir

[low oracle]

Her cage is obviously not pre-conducters though, as it bears the sigil of the citadel. And just because they were considered holy doesn't mean that First Sinner got imprisoned for that exact thing.
Returning to my first point, she was likely Imprisoned during the change of rule, as silken runes (Weavers) and the gilded cage bearing the sigil (conductors) both make up her prison.
Additionally, she existed pre-slab, since she is the First Sinner. The slab was formed from the crimes being turned into tools of punishment, convincing the Order of the slabflies to serve the citadel of song.

[limpid summit]

Her cage is pre conductors

The citadel was pre conductors lol

The slab wasn’t built by the conductors

[frosty gate]

I mean, probably the Weaver influence stayed for a while until Conductors gilded the place up. There's barely any mention of Weavers inside the Citadel itself, so the common assumption would be that Conductors slowly started to remove Weaver influence.

IF First Sinner came out and said "We're fucking liars and not divine" during the rule of the Conductors, they would jump at the opportunity to say "Despise those wretched beings, for they lied, but never falter in your faith, because your work will be seen by the Grand Conductors of this Gilded Citadel"

That way people would go and say "Weavers lie, conductors don't"

[limpid summit]

The wider slab may have been but it’s built around First Sinner’s cell, which is evocative of the stone citadel

[frosty gate]

And Conductors would be even more influential

That said, this is all a pointless supposition ngl

[spark valve]

All I’m saying is that there was a period of time where fs’s apostasy could possibly have been bad for conductors, but like the weavers were dead or dying by the time they took over

[limpid summit]

Does Ballador even suggest that he knows the Weavers weren’t divine

[spark valve]

She was most likely imprisoned by other weavers either way

[frosty gate]

Yeah that's true

[limpid summit]

He probably wouldn’t anyway but he doesn’t right

[frosty gate]

In a big fight I hope

[spark valve]

I mean he understands they were false rulers

[limpid summit]

I’m sure she put up a good fight

[limpid summit]

Yeah but that’s more of their Mandate of Heaven

Not their like actual lineage

Guess it’s pretty much the same mechanically

[frosty gate]

That's why there's so many weapons in her cage, trust

[limpid summit]

How does her “construction” compare to the weavers entombing themselves

Is it some kind of bodily function where weavers can just meld into stone willingly or be forced into it

[royal meteor]

i hate green prince he's a bigger loser than zote

[crimson patio]

Seeing as a mechanical construct like twelfth architect call the weavers “first children”

Could it be that the modern citadel rulers (conductors, ones who made the architects and cogworks) still believe the weavers are at least GMS’s daughters without knowing the truth about the pharlids?

[limpid summit]

The weavers made the architects

Or at least the first one

[crimson patio]

Oh?

[limpid summit]

But the architects and vaultkeepers didn’t know about GMS

[crimson patio]

The weavers made the architects?

[limpid summit]

Yeah 12th says that their line learned stuff from Weavers

[crimson patio]

They planned the cogworkification of the citadel from that early?

[limpid summit]

The conductors architect(s?) and vaultkeepers probably existed before the conductors actually took over

As liaisons

[crimson patio]

But is it left behind weaver knowledge or is it weaver taught?

[frosty gate]

I don't think its a biological thing

[limpid summit]

It’s a bit weird

The cogworkification was long after the Sentinels, who were created by an Architect

But that was in Conductor times

[royal meteor]

twelfth architects silkshot is different to original

[limpid summit]

Presumably the Conductor era just lasted a long time

[limpid summit]

I think they says something about adding their own flair

[royal meteor]

good point

[spark valve]

They don’t even know about GMS they’re the first children of Pharloom because they’re the founders

[crimson patio]

I mean idk
When the weavers fled and left the citadel to the conductors, they could have left behind “weaver tech” knowledge, which the conductors made architects with and impart that knowledge unto them so they can continue making automatons for the citadel

[limpid summit]

That’s true actually

as directive demands, for Pharloom's first children, a-a-a-and our kingdom-eternal, I shall serve.

But 12th says this

[frosty gate]

I personally like to say they "appointed" them, since we don't really know if all Architects were mechanical or just everyone after the first

[limpid summit]

Assumedly the Weavers created the first one with directives to serve and it just made the next one in its image

Or the first architect was biological

[frosty gate]

Not likely, but they thought the architects would help with work around the Citadel

[frosty gate]

The Pontiff did tho

[limpid summit]

Oh the first architect created the Sentinels

The pontiff found out later

[frosty gate]

Yes

[limpid summit]

When the haunting started

[frosty gate]

Or before, I'm actually unsure

[spark valve]

The pontiff figured it out on his own

[crimson patio]

To think a humble citadel of stone would be creating gilded metal constructs to serve them

[limpid summit]

Damned bugs...
We prayed a cage...
We sang your chains...
Divine Silk...

[spark valve]

It wasn’t knowledge the factions had generally

[plain gazelle]

there's plenty of steampunky/architecty stuff in the citadel that presumably dates to weaver times, even if the big cogwork core was built under the conductors. E.G. pious isador, maybe the ventrica system, robots powered by silkflies

[frosty gate]

Don't confuse the Weavers who left (Cindril) to the Weavers that died in the Citadel (Atla)

Weavers left the Citadel to the Conductors, but didn't leave

[limpid summit]

Gilded guys were Conductor era

Probably

[pine scaffold]

So grand mommy silk is the creator of weavers?

[limpid summit]

Cogwork Core is and everything else suits the aesthetic

[frosty gate]

Correct, you can see that after beating FS

[pine scaffold]

Like how the pale king ascended other beings?

[crimson patio]

Was the first architect not gilded metal as well?

[frosty gate]

We don't really know

[limpid summit]

The Weavers created the First Architect, and the Architect created the Sentinels in Conductor times

[frosty gate]

First Architect was definitely appointed by Weavers but we don't know if it was Mechanical or just a normal bug who was really intelligent

[crimson patio]

I mean
I think it’s different

GMS evolved pharlid’s form and consciousness

PK only gives them consciousness, expand the mind

[frosty gate]

I do have to wonder if this is the case because the Sentinels were tasked to bringing people to the Citadel safely

And that sounds like Weaver times

[crimson patio]

Kidnapping

[frosty gate]

Both

I think

[spark valve]

The sentinels were assigned to protect pilgrims it’s just also coercive

[pine scaffold]

So grand mommy silk made the weavers from ordinary bugs the weavers then trapped GMS and fled to deepnest where they eventually fled it as well

Is that all right?

[limpid summit]

The Sentinels were trained by the Pinstresses, and this may be reductive but Pinstress doesn’t mention Weavers at all

[crimson patio]

They’ll protect your journey with a small fee of serving the citadel forever

[stray fog]

Yes

[frosty gate]

It's a tad more complicated than that, but that's kinda the gist of it

[limpid summit]

The weavers who fled to Deepnest and other places probably fled while she was ruling, and the ones that stayed trapped her

[crimson patio]

Isn’t that just a theory with the fighting style
We don’t actually know that

[frosty gate]

Which is insane btw

[graceful grail]

In lace two fight, is she literally stronger because she took a nap??💤

[frosty gate]

Weird as shit

[pine scaffold]

So the weavers are still just out there somewhere?

[crimson patio]

They don’t all fled to Deepnest
Seeing as there are other weaver children brought from other places as well

[limpid summit]

Yeah but it’s a fairly good theory

Because the attack similarity is the Pin Art

[stray fog]

Gms killed a lot of weaver descendants until hornet showed up

[limpid summit]

And Pinstress says they helped the citadel

[frosty gate]

Oh no, they're fucking dead. But they left descendants apparently

[plain gazelle]

well it's not like the Pinstress in game is one of the Pinstresses who trained the sentinels, just the last of their order. No reason expect her to know more about weavers than any other bug

[pine scaffold]

What about the one you see alive in hollow nest

[stray fog]

Dead most likely

[frosty gate]

I'm gonna throw this as a stretch, but there's a chance that the Weavers managed it through The Choir but they were in rule

Just unseen

[pine scaffold]

If they can survive the radiance and the end of two different kingdoms I wouldn’t be surprised if theres still some out there

I mean weavers are extremely good at surviving

[frosty gate]

I say this because of the Forgebugs, specifically Forge Daughter

[pine scaffold]

And they trapped a literal god at one point

[stray fog]

Gms was in the process of killinh them, so maybe she didn't finish all of them before hornet beat her up

[spark valve]

Pinstresses trained members of the citadel that doesn’t mean they directly interacted with leadership or that the pinstress we talk to would explicitly distinguish between who was in charge

[frosty gate]

Exactly my point, the same way Forgebugs worked for the Citadel but they didn't know Weavers

[stray fog]

But I imagine she'd want the pure Weavers first, before descendants. Because they're gonna be better with silk

[royal meteor]

not first sinner

[stray fog]

The fs fight is a memory

[royal meteor]

rune rage is ass

[crimson patio]

It represents her rage

[pine scaffold]

Also when the pale lady says something along the lines of their family being tied to the void is that referencing them committing mass infanticide

[stray fog]

Yes

[crimson patio]

Yea

[pine scaffold]

And so how does the everbloom protect them from that?

[stray fog]

It repels void

[pine scaffold]

Ok but when do they need that?

They left the abyss and sealed it

[crimson patio]

They don’t
They are pale beings themselves

[pine scaffold]

Why do they need more protection of the void

[stray fog]

The pale king worked with void, so he might need that

[stray fog]

She might have it just because zemer gifted it to her

[crimson patio]

If a tiny flower can repel void they themselves as pale higher beings should be able to entirely

[pine scaffold]

Ok but the pale light of an everbloom is a different kind of light

[stray fog]

Wl says that its "the only means" to repel void

[frosty gate]

I disagree, White Lady pays reverence to the flower when she speaks about it in Silksong

"The First Light" or something like that

[pine scaffold]

So did the pale king use souls to make his void constructs?

[frosty gate]

Yeah

Well and runes

[limpid summit]

He used raw soul yes

[frosty gate]

And dead kids

[limpid summit]

But he didn’t need like the souls of bugs

[low oracle]

The Weavers gave the conductors their duties, as means to relieve themselves so they could flee. The process started slowly, and some didn't leave at all (Weaver corpses). The conductors were the ones who worked the citadel up to become this grand scheme, gilding it and creating big imposing robots.
They also created the vaultkeepers faction, so to spread their propaganda/religion more broadly.

First Sinner was likely imprisoned while Weavers and Conductors were in a change of rule, simply as it doesn't leave space for any contradictions.
The slab was built afterwards, by the conductors alone. Their rune cages are significantly weaker, and are likely stocked up due to being difficult to produce.

[limpid summit]

Void has its own natural “mind”

He just had to imprint it with orders

[pine scaffold]

But even that is so vague

[limpid summit]

Huh

The Weavers who fled, fled long ago

All the Weavers that entrusted the citadel to the conductors died

[crimson patio]

Jusy rewatched the cutscene
I completely forgot the “the only means” thing

[limpid summit]

I don’t think we can firmly place anything among the transfer of power window

We don’t know how long that took

[pine scaffold]

Also was like half of pharloom once an ocean?

[limpid summit]

Sands of Karak had water

[royal meteor]

im just asking but is the citadel made by weavers or bugs under gms

[frosty gate]

Nothing says Weavers left after trapping GMS iirc

[limpid summit]

Original stone citadel was made by Weavers, then after a while they gave it up to mortal bugs (who didn’t know about GMS) who made it golden and beautiful

[pine scaffold]

So what would be the hierarchy of power in pharloom

I imagine gms at the top and weavers directly below her

[stray fog]

At which point of time?

[limpid summit]

GMS ruled very early on, served by the Weavers, she jockeyed against other groups like the Karak and Skarr

Then the Weavers who stayed instead of leaving trapped her and ruled, creating the Citadel systems

But they faded after a while, leaving the rule to the Conductors

[pine scaffold]

Interesting

[crimson patio]

Didnt they all rebel and trap her before some fled

[royal meteor]

why did they trap her

[crimson patio]

Idk the lore of SKong as much as I should…

[pine scaffold]

So, all that’s left of Pharloom is a bunch of robots who don’t know everything’s dead, telling a bunch of bugs that it’s not all dead, and so the bugs think something still exists?

[limpid summit]

It’s a bit weird to piece together but the fleeing was likely before she was trapped considering the wording

[crimson patio]

What’s the wording?

[frosty gate]

It's not that weird ngl

[limpid summit]

“Escape her silken sight” makes it sound like she’s awake
Then we have “This low her gaze escaped” in Weavenest Atla where we know the Weavers tried to make tools to trap her

[frosty gate]

Flee from her silken sight

[royal meteor]

why did they trap her

[limpid summit]

It’s not but the Wiki is still wrong 💔

[low oracle]

They left because trapping her didn't work too well and they knew she would awaken.
And don't put iirc. It is literally said in-game, not even as an implication.

[limpid summit]

They had to sustain her with song and worship her

[pine scaffold]

Also, thank radiance that Sherma didn't die

[limpid summit]

Probably got tiring

[royal meteor]

damn

[pine scaffold]

I was so convinced third act would kill him

[limpid summit]

The Cindril rune harp?

"Flee, sisters. Flee until your strength exhausts, so far you may escape at last her silken sight.
To start anew, to sustain, free of web and service eternal."

The service is to her, the silken sight is her being awake

Last words of the Weavers.

"Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence.

We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."

It doesn’t make sense for the Weavers to say this if the other ones who just left recently were like this is never going to work and we are never coming back home

These two harps are an age apart

[frosty gate]

Well then I can't remember correctly, can you pull up the quote?

[pine scaffold]

Did the weavers eat bugs?

[limpid summit]

Yes

Something something “sister spider watch over these bugs no longer your meal”

[low oracle]

Not right now unfortunately, but there is a Weavenest in Far fields saying:
Sister, Spider, escape her gaze
(not directly quoted, but what is said)

In the cradle, we learn of weavers and their descendants being tracked down, which implies they had to be tracked down. Which obviously didn't happen in Pharloom.

Widow may also have had something.

[frosty gate]

Wait you're quoting Cindril????

[limpid summit]

Widow’s cradle dialogue suggests she was always just loyal

[frosty gate]

Cindril escaped before the Citadel was even a thing

[low oracle]

What?

[frosty gate]

Cindril Weavenest is the one in Far Fields

They design the anklets to escape GMS

[limpid summit]

“Silken sight” implies a period where GMS is active and watching over the Weavers

[low oracle]

I don't have all weaver names memorized, neither the dialogue from their artefacts and Weavenests. But there are obvious weaver corpses that we can name, that I am sure of.

[limpid summit]

Yeah she’s said to be above everything but that’s more of an overarching metaphor for her higher being status

[low oracle]

Yeah that one. There is that map showing us where they fled.

[limpid summit]

There’s no reference to her being conscious and aware until Whiteward during the Conductor era

[crimson patio]

After reading all the lore tablets for weavenests I think I’m convinced they fled before the attempt to imprison

[frosty gate]

Correct

Well, it depends on which faction they joined at the end

[spark valve]

I kind of doubt many weavenests even got around to shooting their shots

[limpid summit]

Their silkshots

[frosty gate]

Also correct, most probably gave up and joined either Atla or Cindril

[spark valve]

or just saw atla 'succeed' and said can we get in on that ruling action

[edgy nebula]

i just noticed green prince is constantly holding his heart, that's cool

[limpid summit]

Karn had to have been the bum weaver that no one liked

[sinful nimbus]

Murglin could high diff GMS

[frosty gate]

Yeah but that decision probably was made before the shot

[edgy nebula]

karn just likes making sand castles n shi

[frosty gate]

I personally think Cindril fled while Atla overthrew GMS

[limpid summit]

“Yeah Atla’s got a crazy rager at her Weavenest tonight you coming Keelal”
“Hi guys what’s going on?”
“Oh…uh…nothing, Karn.”

[spark valve]

I doubt cindril knew about the specifics of atla's plan, but maybe they did and just thought it wouldn't work

[frosty gate]

Karn, Weaver of sandcastle and nothingness

[crimson patio]

Odd that the weavers of Deepnest would return to Pharloom of all places when Hallownest fell… were there no better place to run to?

[stray fog]

Why did the Weavers make a surveillance device? (farsight)

[frosty gate]

Not the specifics, but they knew Atla was gonna do something probably

[spark valve]

I mean they tried living on their own and it went about as badly as it could have gone so they went running back to mommy

[frosty gate]

So while GMS was distracted by Atla, Cindril said "Fuck em" and left

[limpid summit]

I feel like that’s not it though

Well that’s it

[stray fog]

Why not any other kingdom

[limpid summit]

But I don’t think they had “GMS” in mind

[plain gazelle]

probably convenient if you're doing research all the way down in the abyss

[limpid summit]

They had been gone for two iterations of the Citadel they were probably like things have settled down by now

[spark valve]

they tried that already and it went badly why would they go to another kingdom with a fraction of the number

[limpid summit]

It’s just the only other place they knew

[low oracle]

Farsight was probably how they knew of GMS's awakening. Farsight is never very specific and rarely more usefull than it is harmfull.

[spark valve]

they probably didn't even know about that

[stray fog]

One kingdom had a zombie virus. Doesn't mean all kigndoms will be deadly

[limpid summit]

No yeah that’s meta

I’m just saying it would have been genuine aeons

[spark valve]

they lost a huge portion of their population at their first stop

[stray fog]

[pine scaffold]

Why doesnt herra look at all like a weaver

[spark valve]

going home wasn't an unreasonable choice given what they experienced

[crimson patio]

Funny how the Weavers of Deepnest never call PK out on his bs that Hallownest was the only kingdom left

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers returning was retconned they just ain't in Pharloom 🥀

[stray fog]

Weavers themselves have a habit of brainwashing people

[edgy nebula]

retcon

[pine scaffold]

So is she a weaver or not?

[sinful nimbus]

She does she was redesigned in Silksong and now only the horns are off

[limpid summit]

No one did

[stray fog]

She is

[edgy nebula]

she is

[limpid summit]

The tablets are for the future though

[crimson patio]

Idk there are some theories that she wasn’t evolved from Pharlids ig

[pine scaffold]

That's so lame

[limpid summit]

A hypothetical one where what he says is true

[sinful nimbus]

Meh

[crimson patio]

Yea but like Weavers we know for sure they know there is at least another kingdom out there

[pine scaffold]

I'll choose the imagine that she just ate a lot and put on some weight and the horns are something she wears

[stray fog]

Why would he put them there before that future was achieved? Wouldnt newcomers think that hes lying out his ass

[sinful nimbus]

Tablets are intended for bugs who literally couldn't leave Hallownest

[limpid summit]

I think it was probably just an open secret

[stray fog]

This is the theory I belive as well

[limpid summit]

One of his knights was foreign and not even uplifted by him

But everyone believed he created the world

[stray fog]

He didn't want people to leave and become brainless

[pine scaffold]

I mean the pale king wasn't a hundred percent wrong

[limpid summit]

The tablets are for bugs who benefited from his beacon yeah

[sinful nimbus]

Everyone believed Ze'mer was an alien

[pine scaffold]

Ze’mer would only further prove his point

[low oracle]

I have a slight correction to make. While both "diseases" enthralled their victims in a hivemind and the capability of the responsible Higher Being to control, they are still vastly different.
The infection is a very specific Hivemind, meaning that it functions as one organism. The lifeseeds taking over Lost King/Broken Vessel are a good example of this. The hivemind is aware of the wings, hence blocking the path. Upon being aware of a threat, it acts to protect the barricade. The infection also sets bugs to their base instincts and base duties, though the latter doesn't apply most of the time. The city guards are probably protective by nature, hence being made guards in the first place.
(I'll write on the haunting in another message, word limit stuff.)

[crimson patio]

So the bugs who could leave hallownest cuz their minds weren’t granted by PK just saw the tablet and say “pffft look at these chuds believing hallownest is the only kingdom”

[pine scaffold]

She left her kingdom so the natural conclusion (for a bug of hollownest) is that her kingdom must have fallen

[limpid summit]

Yeah it would satisfy the last kingdom stuff

But not the idea that he was the god creator of the world

[pine scaffold]

Well everything you could see was made by him

And the only being from another land work for him

I'd say it looks like he rules all

[crimson patio]

The other tribes in the area: none of this is made by us, definitely

[pine scaffold]

Well they don't exist obviously

[crimson patio]

Nope we were just as mindless as you before the king came here

[pine scaffold]

I trust our lord and saviour the pale king

He wouldnt lie to me

[frosty gate]

PK glazing for the bingo

[pine scaffold]

Even if I haven't seen him in my entire life

Or in my fathers time

Or in his fathers

[crimson patio]

The fact that PK is so elusive that it could be a giant case of gaslighting and mandela’s effect and no common bug would know

[pine scaffold]

It could also be that the less the common bugs see him the more likely they are to exaggerate him and make him greater in their minds

[frosty gate]

He just had a big flashlight in his pocket all the time to imitate his glow

[low oracle]

The haunting on the other hand has their hivemind less "present". While specific bugs can be controlled, they mostly only feel GMS in various ways. They feel her intend, her hatred and her rage. The Unravelled is probably as close to GMS's hivemind as possible, formed of pure rage, hatred and pain. Since GMS is also made of (soul) silk, it could be even seen as a part of her body.
Furthermore the bugs return to their usual tasks, now only half at sense. The ants don't work together with other haunted bugs, unlike the infection. The hivemind only connects them to GMS, not other regular haunted creatures.
Haunted bugs are also still aware, having a personality of their own. They are aware enough to feel the torture and the pain, but never can they actually use their awareness for more than their destined tasks.

[crimson patio]

I meant like, if PK never existed at all and bugs just start telling the common bugs that there’s actually some guy living in that giant palace who gives you all mind so you should worship him. What no you can’t see him he’s introverted

I’m sure it would work

[stray fog]

Haunted bugs can also read and maybe write
Unlike infected bugs

[low oracle]

Trobbio isn't haunted in case you thought so, but that is also true. Propaganda is still spread within the whispering vaults.

[stray fog]

Pk : ancient civilization :: weebs : Japanese people?

[pine scaffold]

Now the big question who's a better ruler between pale king and grand mommy silk

[stray fog]

Pk

[crimson patio]

PK obviously

Despite his fetusticide

[stray fog]

Also the choral commandment talking about hornet, and cradle cages

[pine scaffold]

Yeah definitely

He did seem to care about his kingdom

Although I genuinely feel bad for radiance

[low oracle]

That too, though these bugs were mostly under GMS's direct control. Not in the sense of her possesing one, but that she gave them direct orders. The only evil being associated with GMS that isn't haunted is Widow, and potentially Phantom. Phantom might or might not be, since she serves the citadel which opposes GMS. However she also helps GMS, since she allows the cycle of gathering silk to continue. She also clearly states that Hornet isn't welcome, when entering the mist.

[pine scaffold]

The people of Hollownest were just minding their own business and then pk decided to make taxes

Oooh maybe Pale King says his is the last kingdom as he doesn't see places like Pharloom as a kingdom since a wyrm didn't create it

[low oracle]

Hollownest is ragebait beyond the things I can ignore

[low oracle]

Last eternal Kingdom. Wyrms probably attempt at having eternal kingdoms, and he saw all of his other species fail so far.

[stray fog]

Pk didn't read ozymandias

[graceful flicker]

Any kingdom is eternal if you accept everyone may be dead at some point

[halcyon merlin]

just name the kingdom "eternal"

so the kingdom is Eternal

[river cedar]

someone explain the ending for me waht happened to pharloom after

[low oracle]

The haunting is over, hence the bugs don't hear voices anymore. Half of them drop dead too, since they were reanimated corpses in the first place.

[edgy nebula]

pharloom's in ruins but the people left in it are able to rebuild and are free from grand mother silk's influence

[low oracle]

You are never free until you defeat capitalism

[river cedar]

so is it possible for act 4 to start after this ending

[edgy nebula]

true...

[river cedar]

in the future

[edgy nebula]

technically but hornet's job is done so i doubt she would stick around

https://tenor.com/view/luigi-you-can-now-play-you-can-now-play-as-luigi-video-game-nintendo-gif-17936163

maybe thisll happen but with lace

[orchid sun]

Probably something will happen that's gonna make her stay for the dlc

[plain moon]

Did Hornet give any indication of having anything else to do after the events of Silksong?

[river cedar]

We just saying stuff now

[frosty gate]

Absolutely not

Unemployed

[plain moon]

Working DoorDash

[frosty gate]

Death Stranding but you deliver supplies accross the world of Hollow Knight

[edgy nebula]

she kills the 4th heart as a challenge of strength soon to come

[frosty gate]

That's reffering to the Void

And she only says thats with Karmel

[plain moon]

Could Hornet hypothetically rule either Pharloom or Hallownest?

[edgy nebula]

it can be inferred thats the reason she kills any of the 4th hearts

[frosty gate]

She has the right for both

[drifting walrus]

Given her heritage absolutely

[frosty gate]

I mean I guess

[plain moon]

The real prerequisite is the smart bug aura that PK had

[frosty gate]

Not really

At this point I doubt any common bug has much of a choice

You either follow the clearly dependable leader

Or you are a fucking moron

[drifting walrus]

Try telling that to the moth tribe

[frosty gate]

They followed the dependable leader

[plain moon]

Does Hornet have the quasi-mind control/rule ability that PK had?

[frosty gate]

Except Markoth and Seer

[frosty gate]

No

Wait wtf are you talking about

[edgy nebula]

when did pk have mind control

[plain moon]

Not mind control

Dominion

The like

[edgy nebula]

do you mean him putting the palace in the kingsmould?

[frosty gate]

I denied it so quickly I didn't even process wtf you said

[edgy nebula]

you mean the beacon?

[plain moon]

Raise common bugs to intelligence

In the wastes most bugs are just angry guys

[frosty gate]

Ah, that, no

[drifting walrus]

I think that’s like a pale being exclusive

[plain moon]

Hornets like 1/2 pale being

[frosty gate]

Fell for the PK propaganda 🥀

[drifting walrus]

Cause only pk and gms have managed it

[plain moon]

How stupid are most bugs sans a mask or a pale being?

[drifting walrus]

Pretty much wild animals

Running on instinct

[frosty gate]

There's nothing really saying that all bugs outside are animals

Or rather

Of course they are

The same way a forest isn't populated

Or a Desert only has its ecosystem

[plain moon]

So, you’re saying some species of bugs may be independently intelligent, but most aren’t?

[frosty gate]

Most likely, yes

[plain moon]

What kinds of bugs are getting masks?

If they were already jntelligent, they shouldn’t need them

[frosty gate]

?
Masks don't give inteligence

Wait, let me check, I'm pretty sure they didn't

[plain moon]

Why would bugs wear them, then?

[frosty gate]

And even if it does, it has nothing to do with either PK or GMS

[plain moon]

Mask Maker says you need a mask for sentience

[edgy nebula]

so far all we see masks doing are changing personality and physicality

to my knowledge

[frosty gate]

From what I remember, yes

[plain moon]

But for faceless bugs, a mask would grant sentience, if we take Mask Makers assertion that a face is needed to exist at face value

[frosty gate]

Yeah, they do give sentiece, I believe you're right, but only for bugs that need them

Some bugs really are just animals

Although they can apparently evolve

[frosty gate]

Silksong MM or Hollow Knight MM

[plain moon]

HK, but Silksong MM corroborates it

[frosty gate]

Even then, it still has nothing to do with PK and GMS, people can exists independently

[maiden meteor]

I wonder if Phantom has mask to their face to try keep their sanity

[frosty gate]

She only puts it on when she's fighting us so i doubt it

Maybe its a type of Taboo, to go around maskless

[maiden meteor]

that or she just tries to hide disfigured face

which would make sense cause she’s Phantom of the Opera

[frosty gate]

If she even has one, she isnt a bug after all

Idk what even is below her mask

[plain moon]

Is there any example of a bug 1)not under the influence of a higher being 2)not blood-related to higher beings 3)not wearing a mask and 4)intelligent?

I can’t think of one off the top of my head

[frosty gate]

Not that I can think of

I was gonna say the moths

But it just not the cas

The Hive actually

Their faces are just faces

[plain moon]

Hmm

[frosty gate]

And the Mantises

[whole holly]

Mantis, Scarr, Stilkin

[frosty gate]

Nika!

You have a fucking pfp!!!

🎉

[whole holly]

do you like it, most of time i didn't want to bother

[frosty gate]

It's cool looking

[whole holly]

thanks

[frosty gate]

Why the question tho?

[plain moon]

Trying to figure out what bug species are inherently intelligent

[frosty gate]

You know which ones?

The fucking craws

Fuckass bugs

[edgy nebula]

erm... technically...

we dont see their faces...

[plain moon]

The moths probably are too, but they still simp for the radiance

[frosty gate]

Fair

[frosty gate]

Well, all we mentioned

[plain moon]

Yeah

Snails?

[frosty gate]

Those too

Although their shells might work just the same

But I'm just speculating

[whole holly]

what about Snail Shamans?

[plain moon]

If they’re true snails then the shell is a body part

[frosty gate]

They're not bound to a Higher Being, they don't wear masks and they are intelligent

[whole holly]

exactly, it should satisfy criteria

[frosty gate]

There are plenty, damn

So the mask thing might be commong bugs only

[plain moon]

Wonder if Zote has a face under his mask

[frosty gate]

Oh yeah the Vaultkeepers

[plain moon]

GMS

[whole holly]

if you want to see definitive list look through here: https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Lore

[frosty gate]

Oh yeah slugs too

[frosty gate]

That's handy

[whole holly]

Mushroom Clan also fits into category

[frosty gate]

So the mask wearers are a minority?

[plain moon]

Some of the groups are mask wearers

[whole holly]

let's change topic of discussion, but not to Lifeblood, Fayforn, Old Hearts, Needolin, and so on... let's talk about Seals, or Verdania, i want to exhaust all discussion that is interesting, or existing lore tidbits connected to Sea of Sorrows DLC

[frosty gate]

You're gonna kill the chat like that

[edgy nebula]

idm blabbing about verdania

[frosty gate]

What about SoS tho?

[whole holly]

i know... i want to talk about something of substance

[whole holly]

what it is connected to in existing information we have

[frosty gate]

Just lifeblood im afraid

[plain moon]

How does water get into the sea of sorrow?

And stay there?

[whole holly]

idk, somewhere near?

[edgy nebula]

it's prolly a lake

a huge lake

[whole holly]

geology

[plain moon]

Underground water usually isn’t salty 💀

[whole holly]

not really, i would say weavenest murglin view of outside pharloom, also Pale Lake geography, it seems that Pharloom and Sea of Sorrows area is at least partially separated by Basalt Rock that is rich with Craftmetal? and it doesn't disintegrate in water, it withstands it

[plain moon]

Either there is salt leeching in from the rocks or the Sea of Sorrow is fed from an ocean

[frosty gate]

I wonder if we're gonna be underground in the first place

There was a storm

And wind

[whole holly]

then you are asking how Groundwater is staying in Ground....

[whole holly]

wind can come from wastes and storm seems phenomena yet not explained, so i will not comment on it

[frosty gate]

The wastes are surface-y

[whole holly]

most likely rocks we see

[frosty gate]

I think

[whole holly]

yeah, desolate and stuff i guess, but Surface we see in nameless village seems to have unique constructions

[whole holly]

it could be empty pockets underground

[frosty gate]

We don't really see much of the Wastes

I think the Wastes and the Surface are all in the surface

[plain moon]

Godseekers had the Gods of Rain and Storms ofc

[whole holly]

i don't want to conclude that

[whole holly]

they are also dead, maybe place takes there?

that is popular theory

[plain moon]

I don’t think it’s specified

I think it just says they abandoned the Godseekers

[whole holly]

i am aware, but Pharloom Bay and other cut content will be part of it

[whole holly]

they are false or pretender gods, as mentioned by godseekers and we only see statues of them

or corpses...

[plain moon]

Godseekers could just be coping

There’s no reason to think they weren’t higher beings

[whole holly]

there is no reason to think that they are just coping, i believe they are right in some way

[plain moon]

They were certainly abandoned, per Weathered Mask journal entry, but the gods did exist before

Otherwise the Godseekers wouldn’t be complaining about the gods being silent

[whole holly]

they are pretender or in some way inferior to confirmed higher beings

[plain moon]

Why would you say that

[low oracle]

Masks aren't a linearly defined term.

[whole holly]

Gods of Thunder, Gods of Rain

Little is known about these beings that come from the homeland of the Godseeker, the Land of Storms. It is presumed that they were dead when the Godseeker came to be, as their silence was the catalyst to the Godseeker arriving in Hallownest to find other gods, as well as the Land of Storms itself being referred to as a "godless land".[44][45] Huge corpses can be found in the background of the Land of Storms - particularly two major ones found in the room with the Weathered Mask. These are known as "Old Gods" in the game's files and are possibly the Gods of Thunder and Rain. It can be noted that the Godseeker indirectly calls the Old Gods "pretender Gods", though it is unknown if she is actually referring to the Gods of Thunder and the Gods of Rain with this statement.[46]

[plain moon]

Of course the Godseekers would say that

[whole holly]

only God with no resonance is Pale King who is dead, and Vessels who have no resonance, Gods of Thunder, Gods of Rain are most likely dead

[plain moon]

What the Shaw is resonance

[whole holly]

whatever gods have according to godseekers

[plain moon]

Gods of Thunder, Gods of Rain! Why forsake thy servants? Will Our minds be left suffering, to ache alone? What God remains to deliver Us from this woeful silence?" -Weathered mask entry implies that the Godseekers mind were benefited by the God of Storms, which means they had the higher being aura, which makes them “gods” in the same sense as the Radiance or Pale King

[whole holly]

ehh, i will believe it when i see it

right now i wouldn't say it is concrete

[whole holly]

she also says : Hallownest. This kingdom is blessed with true Gods. True! All around, the corpses of pretender Gods. But! Not in Hallownest...

[plain moon]

What would pretender god even mean?

It certainly doesn’t mean alive

And the Gods of Storm and Rain are/were still higher beings

[whole holly]

disagree, evidence is simply not enough given full context behind them

[frosty gate]

Wdym?

[low oracle]

Masks can be organic and carved. A mask can be understood as a face or just an actual mask. Or an artificial face. Or an organic mask. Let me give some examples:
-The dreamers wear artificial masks (excluding Herrah)
-Weaver Masks are organic (but not actual faces)
-Vessels have actual organic faces
-Nosk can create organic faces (masks)

Furthermore, this confusion isn't limited to masks alone:
-Karak have organically formed armor
-Hegemol's armor is organic (stolen by the maggot)
-The Knight's black body isn't void (see broken vessel)
-Karmelita has a dress made of literal flesh (don't think about it )
-The Knight's cloak is part of its body

To make it simple:
Most bugs have an organic mask (face), a shell (body) and soul*. They can also have organic masks, armor, claws and spikes.

All of this can also be inorganic (artificial) or not from the creature that organically composed it.

*Void is anti-soul, so void for void beings

[frosty gate]

Herrah has a mask

[whole holly]

why wouldn't Herrah not have mask, both Weavers and Dreamers do

[frosty gate]

All dreamers have masks yeah

Weavers are organical, Herrah's is specifically artificial

For the Dreamers

[low oracle]

Herrah's mask is organic, and I doubt she would ever take it off willingly.

[low oracle]

What says it is artificial?

[frosty gate]

...But to recall these words, in time so far... Will you even remember me, child? Could you?...
...A mother... before the mask... before I lay forever in duty...

Herrah herself

[whole holly]

Herrah's may be artificial, since comparison between Weaver and Herrah's body is like comparison between Brumm and Nymm

[frosty gate]

Like the reason Hornet can't remember Herrah's face is because she barely saw her face

But she remembers the mask

[low oracle]

Retcon basically, Herrah's ass simply isn't explainable.

[frosty gate]

There was a point in time where Herrah had no Weaver nor Dreamer mask

Just her true face

[low oracle]

Weird. The things is, Weavers are always born with masks, they are basically their second faces. Widow had hers torn off as punishment, so I doubt Herrah would do it willingly. The only explanation I can think of is the drapemite theory, which at least would make somewhat sense. Should I elaborate?

[frosty gate]

Fuck the drapemite theory all my homies are Pharlids

[whole holly]

herrah has to be giant drapemite because what the..

[frosty gate]

Whatever happened to Herrah is probably related to her giving birth

No source

Just gut feeling

It literally makes NO SENSE shes like that

And the Drapemite theory falls apart so easily

I can't be that all Weavers but 2 are Pharlids

We would've seen a variation

But we've seen

DOZENS of weaver corpses

And only two Weavers look different

Both having their original mask removed

BUT

Herrah is worse

Because Widow is a Weaver through and through

Her body looks like a Weaver

HERRAH DOESN'T

So whatever happened there has something to do with her stay at Hallownest

[frosty gate]

Also, we were not talking about those types of masks. I know its interchangeable, but we were talking about the ones MM makes

[low oracle]

So the drapemite theory is explained in the picture below. How this ties back to Herrah's dreamer/non-dreamer mask? Simply put, drapemites don't have masks. Hence she wouldn't have the pain of removing one in the first place, which would make much more sense than getting essentially tortured. Additionally, I have come up with an explanation as to why Herrah doesn't have that butt in red memory. Hornet has memory loss. Just kidding, her body wasn't as aged yet, therefore resembling the little drapemite more than the big one. The little one would fit under her red cloak, hence allowing it to make sense. This theory is neither really proven or disproven, but it does make sense to some extent.
Also, giving birth isn't the thing that caused it, confirmed in red memory. Hornet was already born when Herrah was so slim, hence you couldn't argue against the drapemite theory while supporting the birth theory.

[frosty gate]

Oh shit actually

Herra does look like a Weaver

In RM

She's not as fat

[low oracle]

First Sinner never had her mask removed, are you talking about Herrah and Widow?

[frosty gate]

Yeah

[low oracle]

Yeah, but Weaver masks are still natural.

[frosty gate]

I know the theory, i just really don't like it

[frosty gate]

Never said they weren't

[low oracle]

Why not, it would interest me?

[limpid summit]

I like DrapeHerrah

While the real explanation is that they had to retcon Herrah’s body type while keeping the iconic horns it’s a funny headcanon

[frosty gate]

It's not an interesting reason, I just think it's so weird. Why wouldn't we see other Weavers like that then? And why would Hornet not comment like she does on it with the Pharlids?

"Something in their assault reminds me of my own skill, though their talents are born purely of instinct. My technique is formed from hard training."

If she was the daugther of a Drapemite-made Weaver

She would comment on mites being closer to her

But she doesn't

She only does that for Pharlids, who we know 100% are Weavers

[limpid summit]

True

But to play devils advocate

The technique she talks about would be her learning from Pharlid Weavers

The ones who were actually around to raise her

Not her mom, a Drapemite Weaver, as she was asleep

So she wouldn’t recognize Drapemite tactics as her own

[frosty gate]

So all Weavers are pharlids except Herrah because fuck her?

[limpid summit]

Yes

[frosty gate]

[limpid summit]

I mean under close scrutiny DrapeHerrah falls apart for sure

Because there is no good canon explanation for this retcon

Another stupid piece of evidence is that Devouts attack like Drapemites and they would have learned from Herrah

But that’s lofty

Scream and then quick slashes forward isn’t unique

[frosty gate]

They will say either say:

1. White Wyrm magic D
2. Give into DrapeHerrah theory and give the community something to hold on
3. The classic, "We just don't know yet"

[frosty gate]

Devouts?

[sinful nimbus]

Everyone always focusing on Herrah being a weaver instead of Groal being a stilkin 💔

Sometimes characters just have weird designs

[frosty gate]

Oh, those

[limpid summit]

He’s not

[frosty gate]

I mean I don't think it's that weird he is

[limpid summit]

He’s a metaphor for how those obsessed with power and glory can co opt revolutionary movements

[frosty gate]

He's just big and hyperealistic

[limpid summit]

But TC only knows how to do species

So he’s a giant frog leading the mosquitoes

[limpid summit]

Birth theory doesn’t work either though

She wouldn’t get postpartum changes after she went to sleep instead of giving birth

[frosty gate]

Type shit Measurehead would say

[frosty gate]

I meant that somehow PK changed Herrah so she could give birth and also changed her into tha

idk

Like "Nah dude you can bypass that problem if I just force evolve you a little more, I can make you a thick goth too"

https://tenor.com/view/of-course-gif-21373815

[limpid summit]

https://tenor.com/view/lebron-lebron-look-lebron-look-phone-lebron-look-at-phone-lebron-look-phone-disappointed-gif-238136043013349320

Incomprehensible

[spark valve]

except it doesn't occur before hornet's birth

[frosty gate]

How would we know either way

[limpid summit]

PK made his wife evolve his side chick

[limpid summit]

She has the normal body type in RM

Right in front of Hornet

[spark valve]

because we see her after her birth

[low oracle]

She is called the beast.

[low oracle]

Neither does it after.

[low oracle]

Other Weavers could also give birth so it isn't a Pale King thing.

[crimson patio]

Didnt Groal look like how he is cuz he… like… ate a snail shaman or something

[limpid summit]

She’s called the beast because she uhhh

Uhhhh

We don’t know anymore

[crimson patio]

People believed that soul master was also bloated from the snail shaman stuff

[low oracle]

Nothing snail shaman, just soul.

[crimson patio]

Well
We don’t know how they achieved it
They could also have hooked up with a higher being for all we know

[limpid summit]

Shaman spells are extremely powerful

Probably contributed to his bloating

Because he deflates and then reinflates when he takes it back

[low oracle]

Maybe she is closest to what Grand Mother Silk is (to the weavers)? She was their ruler, at least those who fled to deepnest. And her form isn't very fragile looking either.

[frosty gate]

Right

[low oracle]

Possible, but that already feels like an excuse. You can't prove fannon with fannon, if you get what I mean.

[limpid summit]

Well midwife calls her the beast

It’s a title they embraced

Now I guess it just means she was a good fighter or something

She wasn’t a common beast that rose to glory

The mushrooms are just ignorant

[frosty gate]

She did lead a war against the Mantises

I think it was during her time

[graceful copper]

maybe she is abeast because well since gms changed the spider things

[low oracle]

Titles and names are equivalent to one another on the grander scale of beings. "Widow", "First Sinner", "The Beast", "Daughter of Hallownest", "The Hollow Knight".

[crimson patio]

I mean it’s already established that weavers birth is so painful it’s basically impossible. So the means through which they reproduce is not normal either

[frosty gate]

They might just see Weavers as beastly

[graceful copper]

yeah

[frosty gate]

I mean

Weavers are beasts

[crimson patio]

Evolved beasts

[frosty gate]

In a regular setting where you don't raise a crowd to think you're God

[graceful copper]

beause of gms

[crimson patio]

You’d think for a race that can weave silk into seals they’d get something more dignified

Maybe beast is a testament to her strength

The other dreamers titles are like, their job

[edgy nebula]

isnt herrah the beast a derogatory nickname by other people from hallownest

[crimson patio]

Shouldnt the derogatoriness change when she gave birth to a princess?

[frosty gate]

Legally speaking

Hornet is not really a Princess

She was an under the wraps deal

It's likely people of the Kingdom didn't know of Hornet's lineage

Hornet is not under any records

People never mention her

Lemm doesn't even make a quippy remark about her

And since she is from Deepnest, there's no way people just saw that shit happen

Chances are Hornet is only known by the royal subjects

The Hive

Pure Vessel

[crimson patio]

She was called princess protector once on the official website but I supposed they retconned it

[frosty gate]

I mean she is a princess by technicality

Not really a retcon

[low oracle]

That conflict wasn't as simple, and the weavers were likely not even involved in the first place:
The Pale King made peace with the mantises, backing them up as a greater force. In turn, the mantises provided protection from deepnest. Since the city guards use the same nail-lances as the mantises, it can be assumed that the Pale King also assisted with weaponry.
The residents of deepnest can be split into three groups however; Bug (sapient), beast (sentient) and Nosk (+other unique inhabitants. It is also not clear where Nosk came from and if it is even from deepnest in the first place).

The bugs posing a threat were the beasts, which the mantises kept at bay. They were also responsible for destroying the tramway.
The distant village bugs on the other hand had a different conflict. They also opposed the Pale King to some extent, as seen with the silk-snapped bench at the stagway. They mostly wanted independence and no recognition, likely to not attract any attention. The deal between the Pale King and Herrah lead to both leaders recognizing each other as equals. However the plan to stop the infection failed, hence leading to the departure of the Weavers. All except for two; Herrah and an unknown Weaver keeping watch over the Weavenest. There also seems to have been a "King of Deepnest", though this guy never shows up, if he even exists.
The distant villagers are likely empty, artificial shells, animated with silk. That could have been any of the three suspects mentioned before (Herrah, Weaver, KoD). As it stands currently, the only remaining Weavers are Hornet and possibly (please) the random Weaver.

[tepid stirrup]

howd we go from herrah's nickname to hornet being a princess

[frosty gate]

. This

[low oracle]

"Daughter of Hallownest" is enough. And it's a title by the way.

[tepid stirrup]

yeah yeah sorry

[frosty gate]

Not the other Weavers but Herrah perhaps

[tepid stirrup]

but was Herrah's title The Beast before she lived in deepnest?

[low oracle]

Hornet was also part of the Pale King's court, which included him, the White Lady, Pure Vessel (somewhat), Hegemol, Ogrim, Isma, Drya and the Grey Mourner. The royal retainers were also present in the palace, hence they know of Hornet too. It's kinda sad though that we don't get to customize Hornet. We should have at the very least kept that legendary cloak in Red Memory, while talking to the White Lady.

[tepid stirrup]

bc i would call u beast if u lived in deepnest too

[limpid summit]

Maybe

[frosty gate]

This is also by gut feeling, but the other Weavers probably didn't like Herrah getting buddy buddy with the Beasts

[low oracle]

Why though?

[limpid summit]

I wish we found a Weaver Effigy to Herrah

Would that not have been hard as hell

[low oracle]

Why wouldn't they?

[spark valve]

no? the weavers lived pretty harmoniously alongside the native deepnest tribe

[limpid summit]

I don’t think the weavers would have disliked the Brood

Midwife glazes them it was probably mutual

[frosty gate]

She was the wife of the King of Deepnest and she has good reasons to hate Pale Beings

[low oracle]

Pretty sure that the Weaver effigies only mention Weavers that stayed in Pharloom to introduce the age of conductors.

[limpid summit]

They had just escaped eternal servitude they wouldn’t be picky

[limpid summit]

This is true

[frosty gate]

Harmoniously hidden? Unless I'm forgetting a dialogue

[low oracle]

Good reason to be racist? Jokes aside, she isn't the one demanding an ursuper.

[spark valve]

they didn't hide from them they just had a separate home where they could work their craft

[limpid summit]

Little weavers say “For Herrah…For Brood”

[frosty gate]

Herrah was the Queen after all

[limpid summit]

Yeah she was a Weaver too

That’s Weaver sentiment

[spark valve]

Ohhhh.. Heehee. Been prying about the weavers' home, have you my dear? Quite brazen to pilfer that special charm.

Amazing things the weavers once crafted on their looms; stories, shields, spells. So much of our history was spun upon their spools. Your little friends there are testament to their talents... heehee.

they just had their own house

[limpid summit]

What happened to the Sire dude 💔

[spark valve]

he's kind of irrelevant

[frosty gate]

I did forget a Dialogue then, my bad

[limpid summit]

Depends on what he looks like

[low oracle]

Maybe the Weaver-like creatures are artificially modified residents of deepnest then. I know it refers to the charm, but it isn't out of the question. Weavers love worship after all.

[spark valve]

does it

[low oracle]

What do you mean?

[frosty gate]

Yeah, imagine if he's hot????

[limpid summit]

Is the Adult Weaver in HK actually a Nosk

Is it Skynx

@sinful nimbus holy shit

[edgy nebula]

i think you guys have gone insane

[low oracle]

Skynx isn't confirmed to be nosk-related.

[edgy nebula]

the content drought cant be THAT bad

[crimson patio]

Or maybe the little critters are just silk woven into life
Artificial life

[low oracle]

The charm is just silk runes within shells.

[frosty gate]

WE WERE HAVING AN NORMAL CONVO I SWEAR

[low oracle]

Who???

[limpid summit]

The Sire

[low oracle]

Who is the sire?

[limpid summit]

And the honored caste of spiders that existed alongside the Weavers

The dead sire

[frosty gate]

When did we lose the topic and started to talk about nicknames 🥀

[crimson patio]

How do we know this..?

[low oracle]

The worshippers?

[limpid summit]

"This border bounds the twisting, scratching things.
Their dead sire, once of honoured caste.
Their sealed mother, but the common beast.
No peace with them we make."
-Fungal Wastes lore table

[low oracle]

Just makes sense. Obviously it couldn't be actual weavers, and the robots have many similarities.

[crimson patio]

I know in silksong it was mentioned somewhere that silken life has been observed to be possible before, but not to the marvelous extent that Lace was

[limpid summit]

The weaverlings are little silk constructs yeah

[edgy nebula]

wraiths

[low oracle]

Maybe the common beast is the King of Deepnest. So we can spare that insane retcon.

[frosty gate]

Would you call Lil Weavers marvelous???

[edgy nebula]

and also eva

[spark valve]

that's in reference to weaverlings which are ephemeral and don't survive without the charm's magic

[frosty gate]

Lace is a masterpiece btw

[edgy nebula]

she must be modern art or something because she sucks

[limpid summit]

The sealed mother is not the king of Deepnest

[low oracle]

Wraiths are part of Phantom, you can even figure that out with the needolin dialogue.

[limpid summit]

Herrah is not dead

[crimson patio]

Yes I’m also talking about the weaverlings spawn by weaversong

I’d sooner believe they are silken life than shells with runes in them

[frosty gate]

Shut up don't slander my girly she gonna cry

[frosty gate]

Now she is

[low oracle]

Maybe they mean "the sealed mother [Herrah], but the common beast [is the King of deepnest]"? Idk, TEAM CHERRY.

[spark valve]

lace is a flawed creation but compared to the shit hornet has seen before she's wild

[frosty gate]

Depending on what you do to reach an ending though

[low oracle]

Silken life needs to be sustained, so that isn't a very reasonable thing to believe.

[tepid stirrup]

ok but the origin of Herrah's title kinda depends on when she got it

[crimson patio]

I mean she is marvelous
A life spun entirely from silk with consciousness and a sense of self

[frosty gate]

Imagine TK just kills all 3 Dreamers, doesn't open the egg and just goes do Godmaster

Killed 3 people for fun

[spark valve]

(obligatory godmaster is shit)

well etv is

[low oracle]

The thing is, wouldn't they just stop the Hollow Knight from being free? Because they can't actually leave the dream realm on their own.

[frosty gate]

The only flaw Lace has is Silk consumption

[spark valve]

which is a pretty big one as the game hammers in over and over

[safe hollow]

Wut

[low oracle]

Just continue the capitalism in Pharloom and you'll have enough silk.

[frosty gate]

[tepid stirrup]

but the silk consumption doesnt mater bc gms has infinite right

[spark valve]

etv is cartoonishly bad from a narrative perspective it undermines the entire main point of the knight's journey

[frosty gate]

Well actually, wouldn't killing Absrad and overflowing the Dream realm kill all dreamers?

[spark valve]

no

[low oracle]

Technically you could build her additional limbs/upgrades. So we should have Lace, but as tall as the White Lady, with ten arms and fourteen legs.

[sinful nimbus]

bro was trying to lure Hornet 🥀

[rough ingot]

That would be an atrocity

[frosty gate]

Give her more arms, maker her look like a Weaver

[frosty gate]

Imagine

[low oracle]

Absrad was summoned to a different dream realm for attunement. The dream realms also don't depend on the Radiance.

[rough ingot]

Hence the white palace

[low oracle]

Stop kink shaming /j

[tepid stirrup]

but it would take away the child/daughter idea gms wanted

[frosty gate]

Wait actually

[rough ingot]

Gms and pale king: all of their kids hate them

[low oracle]

It would also take the crowd away that believes Lace is a literal child.

[frosty gate]

The seals are meant only to seal the infection

They should come undone if the infection fades

[tepid stirrup]

fr

[spark valve]

the dreamer seals don't even do that but yes they should deactivate when radiance is dead

[tepid stirrup]

true

[frosty gate]

They seal the door to the egg

[rough ingot]

Like the seals in black egg

[frosty gate]

Well yeah i get what you meant

[low oracle]

The seals are the binding chains. The dreamers wouldn't be affected at all, since their seal exists separate.

[rough ingot]

The hollow knight exits black egg at the end of etv

[frosty gate]

Air filtration lmao

[rough ingot]

EXITS

[spark valve]

yes they're there to protect the hollow knight who seals the infection they don't seal the infection themselves

[crimson patio]

Well…

[rough ingot]

Do you need to kill the hollow knight to unlock pantheon 4?

[frosty gate]

I wonder if they can undo themselves?

[rough ingot]

I don’t think so

[frosty gate]

The Dreamers are clearly alive in the Dream

[low oracle]

Well they do...
hwen the Knight seals the Radiance, they target them instead.

[crimson patio]

Seeing as killing 1 dreamer plunge crossroads into the infection id say they play some role in containing it

[frosty gate]

If they decide, can't they just undo themselves?

[rough ingot]

Or getting wings

[frosty gate]

Which would kill them

[spark valve]

that doesn't cause anything it's just a marker of time passing

[sinful nimbus]

That's the passage of time, Monarch Wings also triggers that

[rough ingot]

That’s just the vessel weakening

[tepid stirrup]

yeah but didnt they kinda give up their physical form

[spark valve]

no or else monomon would have

[low oracle]

The dreamers seem to be disagreeing with each other, no?
"The seals cannot be undone"
"The seals must be undone"
It felt to me like they were arguing what the best course of action would be.

[crimson patio]

Why could it not have different meanings?

[rough ingot]

Well it’s still attached to them, which is why dreamnail brings us there

[low oracle]

Herrah would have, if anyone.

[frosty gate]

Monomon undoing herself would not change anything

[frosty gate]

Herrah doesn't care

[sinful nimbus]

The purpose of the dreamers is pretty clearly laid out in their monuments "to protect the vessel, the dreamers lay sleeping"

[low oracle]

Exactly.

[rough ingot]

Herrah really wanted to see Hornet grow up, she loved Hornet and wanted a daughter

[spark valve]

she actively participates in her own demise by calling quirrel back

[sinful nimbus]

Its like saying Crystal Heart is what's preventing Myla from getting infected

[frosty gate]

Because she knows things are about to change

[low oracle]

I'm saying that Herrah wouldn't care to unbind herself from the dream realm.

[frosty gate]

Plus, she is kind of a special cas

Remember Quirrel had her mask

[spark valve]

she just wants the seals to break, if she could break her own seal on her own she wouldn't have to call quirrel back or have the knight come down to kill her she could just do it

[frosty gate]

She couldn't have known TK was coming

[rough ingot]

Monomon wanted another layer of protection

[frosty gate]

The mask!!!!

Maybe without the mask she can't undo herself

[rough ingot]

The mask appears to be really important to all of the dreamers

[spark valve]

the mask makes it harder for something else to enter her dream and even once it's returned she doesn't off herself

[frosty gate]

After all, the seal would be on the mask Quirrel carries

[low oracle]

She even taught him how to defeat Uumuu in preparation.

Also, wouldn't it be REALLY funny if Uumuu did that Last Judge explosion shit, but like the other Oomas and stuff?

[spark valve]

the seal is still on her

[rough ingot]

They share similar masks, could they be what allowed them into the dream realm?

[frosty gate]

She knows TK would do it anyway

[tepid stirrup]

not only to the dreamers but to EVERY bug

[rough ingot]

Quirrel comic

[sinful nimbus]

Why would she wait for TK

[low oracle]

Yes, but the masks also probably helped with the tasks.

[edgy nebula]

whos the quirrel of silksong

[frosty gate]

TK and Quirrel reach Monomon together

[sinful nimbus]

TK possibly doesn't even have dream nail by that point (There's even Quirrel dialogue for that)

[frosty gate]

Oh wait you can get there with dm

[rough ingot]

Well it’s kinda odd that lurien and monomon share masks, but that GMS conveniently evolved herrah like that

[edgy nebula]

like, an npc we see across the game who turns out to be important to the lore

[frosty gate]

Fuck i forgot

[spark valve]

tk can reach her before getting dream nail and have to leave to hopefully find an alternative thing

[frosty gate]

🥀

[low oracle]

Slight correction: The masks do not affect the entering of the mind. They do however make the task easier, which would help for what was expected to be eternity.

[rough ingot]

Mask maker dialogue

[low oracle]

Join the Grim troupé babe!

/s

[rough ingot]

I feel like the Grimm’s troupe is committing a crime

[low oracle]

Why?

[edgy nebula]

technically they arent doing anything wrong persay

[frosty gate]

Not really, they're self suficient kinda

[rough ingot]

They’re using the flame of a dying kingdom, and who knows how many ppl Grimm killed in their dance

[frosty gate]

They arent doing anything wrong yet

[tepid stirrup]

i still thinks its an actual cult

[edgy nebula]

theyre just trying to avoid the nmh's eventual death, which in the themes of hk isnt super tubular

[rough ingot]

Hea

The nightmare heart is the sibling of the radiance

[edgy nebula]

but theyre pretty neutral otherwise

[frosty gate]

I still say

[edgy nebula]

who even needs nightmare essence anyway

[rough ingot]

And we know the radiance was a little salty

[frosty gate]

If NMH wanted he could've probably taken over the infection right?

[spark valve]

the heart

[spark valve]

probably not

[rough ingot]

The heart might have been stronger than the radiance at that point

[spark valve]

the nightmare realm is isolated from the rest of the expanse

[frosty gate]

But they were once one

[rough ingot]

But the radiance’s infection also oddly appears as lifeblood like

[frosty gate]

And if we kill Radiance while having Grimmchild

[rough ingot]

Anybody notice that?

[frosty gate]

He could use the Child to takeover

[low oracle]

Himself mostly. The grimkin are beings of the nightmare realm, they don't care either. And if you aren't strong, don't mess with a guy that has fucking glowing red eyes. Otherwise, Grimm is very knowledgable. He probably just knows to choose strong individuals. The ritual is also not completed by outsiders usually, otherwise the dying kingdom thing would be kind of hard to pull off.

[edgy nebula]

the grimmchild charm just summons the grimmchild, it can leave whenever it wants, no?

[spark valve]

lifeblood is also made by a dream god* expressing influence on the real world
*probably

[rough ingot]

The younger ones have black I think?

[low oracle]

It summons it from the nightmare realm probably.

[spark valve]

that wouldn't really change things

[frosty gate]

For Hallownest or you mean using the child wouldnt do anything

[rough ingot]

At least the nightmare heart doesn’t have the inherent desire of pale beings to take places over

As far as we’ve seen

[frosty gate]

No one does

[spark valve]

grimmchild helping with fighting radiance doesn't restore the nightmare realm's connection or anything

[frosty gate]

It's a fucking Pale thing

[crimson patio]

Do we really know what creates lifeblood… i havent played silksong so if it reveals anything i wouldnt know about it

[rough ingot]

GMS

[low oracle]

Bodies? That's just their design. The only mortals in the grimm troupe are the grimmkin (willow species), divine (leg eater hybrid with visible asshole) and Brumm.

[frosty gate]

She is Pale

[rough ingot]

The radiance also kinda had a similar desire

The radiance was also just really angry with the pale king

[frosty gate]

Yeah but that was back then, I wonder if they ever thought about it 🥀

[crimson patio]

She isn’t pale

[low oracle]

Nothing is revealed, except for the fact that Lifeblood isn't inherintly evil. People just abuse it like crazy.

[frosty gate]

They did have the Cursed ending on SS

[rough ingot]

The twisted child also might have that

[frosty gate]

She is Pale wtfym

[crimson patio]

Also she doesn’t have the desire to take over places all she needed was her moth’s worship

[rough ingot]

I mean after devouring Hornet and GMS

[crimson patio]

The radiance??

[rough ingot]

She got a little angry with the pale king

The radiance ain’t pale

[edgy nebula]

rad's not pale

[frosty gate]

GMS

[crimson patio]

I was answering the thing for radiance

[rough ingot]

She used the infection to make ppl remember her and double as a way to undo the pale king gift

[frosty gate]

I did not reply to your message

Oh I get what you mean

Mb

[rough ingot]

This chat has multiple conversations going on

It’s hard

[frosty gate]

She didn't really undo it

She just killed them

[rough ingot]

She made them return to their primal instincts

[frosty gate]

Or they killed themselves

[rough ingot]

Which was destroying the mind the pale king gave them

[frosty gate]

Me when mining is my primal instinct

[rough ingot]

They’re more alive than the corpses GmS brings back with her threads

[rough ingot]

Well, they have much simpler duties now

[muted lantern]

The children yearn for the mines

[edgy nebula]

gms outright controls living people

[rough ingot]

And dead ones

[edgy nebula]

they can still read, write, et cetera

[rough ingot]

The pale king gave his subjects higher thought

[frosty gate]

Yes, she is weird

[rough ingot]

She is really greedy

[frosty gate]

She literally lets them act normal

But under her influence

[rough ingot]

A bug who serves must never die

[frosty gate]

I wonder if they even realize everyone is dead

[muted lantern]

If the living ones are fully controlled/part of a hive mind why do they need to write down choral commandments to capture hornet. I imagine the complete puppeteering is for corpses and she just heavily influenced the living ones.

[low oracle]

Radiance isn't pale.
Grand Mother Silk is.

[rough ingot]

It’s not a hive mind

[frosty gate]

Yeah yeah, I got confused between convos

[rough ingot]

Infection is haunting isn’t

[edgy nebula]

haunting is a hivemind

[tepid stirrup]

no radiance is just bright

[frosty gate]

The Haunting is a Hive mind

[rough ingot]

Is it?

[tepid stirrup]

still has the pale need to take over places tho

[frosty gate]

Hornet: What do you remember of your time caught upon the thread, Pavo?
Oh, ahh. It is difficult... Upsetting even to think. Strange, sad memories, not my own, and my own thoughts smothered amidst the tangle.
If one could choose to connect themself to something grander, that curse may seem a wonder. For myself, it now seems a horror.

Pavo's words

[crimson patio]

Idk if radiance has the pale instinct to colonize people

[frosty gate]

She didn't

[crimson patio]

She probably was totally content with her little moth tribe until they left her for PK too

[tepid stirrup]

yh ok she js wanted revenge

[frosty gate]

Pretty much, yeah

[tepid stirrup]

bc god+no prayers/worshippers=nothing

[low oracle]

@frosty gate This details how the Hivemind and haunting work.

[tepid stirrup]

js an higher power everybody forgot

[low oracle]

Unless you are the Nightmare King, who just got the best higher being class to exist.

[swift needle]

https://tenor.com/view/steve-harrington-stranger-things-steve-steve-harrington-hand-hand-on-head-gif-11593158090835654468

[frosty gate]

You can't be forgotten if you remember yourself

[swift needle]

https://tenor.com/view/cell-perfect-cell-hyper-realistic-hyper-realistic-cell-hyper-realistic-perfect-cell-gif-1635843172149104674

[edgy nebula]

it's all over for the nmh once the dementia starts to develop

[swift needle]

https://tenor.com/view/bacon-egg-cheese-invincible-nolan-grayson-dancing-gif-9353462142257891875

[low oracle]

Higher Beings are immortal.

[swift needle]

https://tenor.com/view/higuruma-hiromi-internetpoop-jujutsu-kaisen-gif-17247949415495645106

[tepid stirrup]

why is ts so funny😔 ✌️

[tepid stirrup]

oh nahh😭

[swift needle]

https://tenor.com/view/war-vietnam-ptsd-shell-shock-moment-gif-3022747568394546158

[crimson patio]

The gif spam…

[tepid stirrup]

but they immune to dementia tho??

[swift needle]

https://tenor.com/view/riddler-paul-dano-new-rockstars-thumbnail-does-he-know-he-doesnt-know-gif-27552850

[low oracle]

Yeah? Your brain cells don't age if you don't either.

[low oracle]

It's okay, I got the good ending

[tepid stirrup]

i was joking 😭

[frosty gate]

Ok boys gifs and images are fun

[low oracle]

I'll stop now.

[frosty gate]

But we should not be caught under the gaze of the mods

[frosty gate]

I'm not a mod I hold no power

And I'm no snitch

[swift needle]

https://tenor.com/view/cell-perfect-cell-hyper-realistic-hyper-realistic-cell-hyper-realistic-perfect-cell-gif-1635843172149104674

[frosty gate]

But the spam could get their attention

[low oracle]

Thank you so much, I hate the guys that spam mod pings over the tiniest stuff. I get not wanting spam though, and I respect that.

[tepid stirrup]

i jsut finished my steel soul run for ss and i started thinking

poor GMS that i woke her up and started beating the shi outta her

😔

[low oracle]

He's become impure guys!!! We've got to replace him!!!

[tepid stirrup]

neuuu

[low oracle]

She invited you though. Impurity.

[tepid stirrup]

yeah

imagine being able to invite people to your home while sleeping

[low oracle]

Why would you need that?

[tepid stirrup]

idk

just funny ig?

[low oracle]

Maybe if you are getting robbed and pretending to sleep?

[low oracle]

Reverse bell ringing prank.

[frosty gate]

The Prydwen discord server is like that, the mods are so strict too🥀

[tepid stirrup]

still think vanilla full 100% run is more fun

cricket sounds

[frosty gate]

I just read a Pavo line

[low oracle]

Gotta brush my teeth bro.

[low oracle]

I play vanilla only. Or you mean without the expansions?

[tepid stirrup]

expansions? wdym

[frosty gate]

You think Hornet survived Greyroot because she is basically a demigod?

[low oracle]

Free dlc, the extra 12%.

[tepid stirrup]

oh noo i mean silksong

[edgy nebula]

yeah

[tepid stirrup]

i never played hk steelsoul

jus didnt want to

[edgy nebula]

presumably if she werent she'd instantly die and be added to the mass of corpses in the chapel of the witch

[tepid stirrup]

yh bc how would u survive a broken neck otherwise