sk-lore

[spark valve]

yes because there's a settlement in bonebottom now

[stray fog]

It could also be because the citadel deteriorated due to the haunting

So no more elevator maintenance

[spark valve]

the elevators are surrounded by conductor era stuff they aren't old old old early citadel shit

[stray fog]

Timeline discussions would be fucked without gilded architecture vs stone architecture 🙏

[frosty gate]

I wonder how long has bone bottom been there honestly

[frosty gate]

They're still fucked

[spark valve]

not everything that is gilded was conductor era but most of the extra shit along the pilgrimage route and especially in blasted steps probably is

[frosty gate]

Exactly

Should we

Analyze which one is which?

[spark valve]

you're not really going to be able to always tell the difference and there isn't a clear divide between stone and gilded

isamor itself is made of that brass material

[frosty gate]

Brass is its own thing!!!

[spark valve]

silksong uses gilding for the brass as well

[frosty gate]

Does it?

[spark valve]

Bug born of Pharloom. You have been chosen.
May our Citadel's holy gilding harden your soft shell.
Stand eternal as our arbiter, that no bug bearing sin shall step within our sacred halls.

[marble oasis]

yeah not all gilding is gold

[frosty gate]

Fuck TC i swear

[marble oasis]

in this game

you have obvious gold like on the reeds

[frosty gate]

Literally not what it means by the way

[marble oasis]

but other duller colours are called gilded

[spark valve]

it's a reasonable extension of the meaning

[frosty gate]

That could be gold to be honest

[spark valve]

then isamor may as well be too but the contrast isn't even stone vs gilding it's stone vs anything else

[marble oasis]

yeah but this is definitely gold

[frosty gate]

And this should be brass but it doesn't look much different from the Judges

[marble oasis]

the scrollreaders’ armor is also called gilded

[marble oasis]

nah the judges are shinier

[stray fog]

Bells make more sense with brass

[pearl thunder]

gold is a pretty bad material for anything structural

at best you could have gold plating, so gilding

[limpid summit]

Is this how the sentinels did it

[spark valve]

real gold is bad for anything structural this is fantasy bug world

[limpid summit]

They put cheese in the cages or something

“We g-g-got one!”

[spark valve]

they look like cages but they are just elevators

you can just walk in and out

[limpid summit]

Oh yeah they’re the same as the blasted ones

[spark valve]

they're also in shellwood

[marble oasis]

and one in greymoor

[frosty gate]

Underworks is mostly Brass isn't it?

Some of it is Gilded but you can tell the paint is falling

[spark valve]

underworks is like largely stone

there's a lot of stone and iron looking stuff

underworks is probably not generally designed with aesthetics in mind

[frosty gate]

Stone with metal reinforcements

Can we agree that not all gilded stuff was strictly during the Conductor's rule?

Some of it could've started with Weavers

Certain stuff at least

[spark valve]

they built the songshrine bells

[frosty gate]

Most likely with the help of the Forgebugs, yes

In TL i was making, i assumed the Weavers stablished The Choir and sent them to hire the Forgebugs

After Pilgrimage already started

It makes the most sense to me so far

[rapid bloom]

Stone with metal so they could stand safely.

[frosty gate]

"Safely"

But yeah

[spark valve]

stone makes bad pipes

[rapid bloom]

It's not the safest, I know 😭

[frosty gate]

And terrible cogs

[rapid bloom]

But it's the most they would be able to get in terms of security.

[pearl thunder]

tell that to the romans

[spark valve]

they didn't have to deal with gas

[rapid bloom]

Also, pretty sure the Citadel is gilded.

[frosty gate]

All of it, yeah

[spark valve]

putrified ducts are more comparable to aqueducts and those are stone

[pearl thunder]

at the very least, the steps are gilded

Our holy land calls on us. To journey up is our greatest task. Who are we to refuse? Guided by faith, we climb through flaming fields, across rolling moors, and up great gilded steps. All to reach that eternal, shining Citadel.

half joking, it's referred to as gilded repeatedly

[frosty gate]

The Slab is gilded too, but it was probably gilded after a while

[rapid bloom]

I mean, unlike the White Palace which inspired simplicity yet elegance, the Citadel is meant to inspire opulence, to create the view of a promised land.

[late solstice]

i mean
There wont be any enemies since gms is gone

[frosty gate]

Just creatures I guess

And outsiders

[rapid bloom]

All of the Haunted ones at least.

The Haunting also works on living beings, so they might probably return to normal.

But the ones that were dead before the Haunting will, indeed, cease to move.

[late solstice]

So if they were haunted and not died they will come back to normal

[rapid bloom]

Yeah.

[late solstice]

K

[rapid bloom]

Which means that, the Citadel bugs, least the ones like the few we find in the High Halls gauntlet are going to die.

[whole holly]

didn't romans use lead pipes?

[pearl thunder]

stone aqueducts, late holy/roman empire used lead pipes in some cases

[whole holly]

what is with Putrified Ducts, why is it separate from Bilewater, when is Sea of Sorrows coming, i think they won't delay it this time

[frosty gate]

I mean, yeah, but most are dead anyway

If not by Lace, by Hornet

[frosty gate]

Why wouldn't it be separate?

The Ducts are just the source of waste disposal

[whole holly]

they are both bile in enough

[whole holly]

yeah, but overall they don't have different architecture, it is just modified Bilewater

[frosty gate]

It means they probably just pushed the Stillkin down

[whole holly]

they are pretty much equally toxic though, at least there is clean areas in both but unsettled

[limpid dock]

herrah doesnt look like a weaver, what is she exactly?

[frosty gate]

Why would they be clean, they're the waste disposal of the Citadel

[frosty gate]

A Weaver

We don't know why she looks like that

[limpid dock]

she doesnt look like the weavers

[whole holly]

reread what i said

[limpid dock]

oh

maybe she ate too much or something

[frosty gate]

Oh my bad, but i don't get what you're trying to point out about this two places

[whole holly]

it is confusing that there are no ways to reliably form distinction, they are pretty much same, sinner's road looks somewhat different, Bilewater and Ducts look the same

[frosty gate]

Why would they be different if they're the same place?

[frosty gate]

Sinner's Road was not part of Bilewater, it was part of Greymoor

[whole holly]

you just said "Why wouldn't it be separate?" while ago, if they are same place why are they separate

[frosty gate]

Ok, let's start over

The Ducts were probably part of Bilewater at some point

[frosty gate]

And they were the same place

But the Citadel likely went in and pushed Bilewater down

[whole holly]

what were they originally do we have information? and do you think we will get memory about it?

[stray fog]

@whole holly are you primacon's alt /j

[halcyon merlin]

is needolin even useful in fights

[whole holly]

i watched primacon in 2023-4, those were bad times, without silksong

[whole holly]

eh, enemy stun wears off second you stop, at least make Spider Strings useful in that department

[halcyon merlin]

incredible

[cunning carbon]

What’s the deal with phantom. Does lace even care about her? Does she even know about her? Why did phantom never leave the exhaust organ if she hated it so much after pharloom began to fall, is she stupid?

[frosty gate]

There's a chance we will get one in Bilewater and we could go up to Ducts, but it depends on DLC.

The Ducts was probably just another place of the tribe

[frosty gate]

Lace cares and knows about Phantom, there's a Needolin dialogue in the organ you probably missed

Phantom can't leave because her mother is a bitch and doesn't feed her with Silk, so Phantom is dying

[cunning carbon]

Oh… yeah I don’t jam out on the needle while fighting

[frosty gate]

It's not in the fight

It's in the organ

[cunning carbon]

Ooooh

[frosty gate]

You can go around or look for it in the wiki

Let me remember how this shit works

!wiki Needolin Dialogue

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Driftlin
Not the correct result? Use !wiki page Needolin Dialogue for a direct link or !wiki search Needolin Dialogue for a list of all hits.

Hollow Knight Wiki

Driftlin

Driftlins are enemies in Hollow Knight: Silksong.[Missing information]

Health

4/Black-Threaded8

Drops

None

Damage Modifiers

1    1    1    1    1

Journal kills

20

Singing

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/File:Driftlin_Sing.ogg

[frosty gate]

!wiki page Needolin Dialogue

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Needolin_Dialogue

[frosty gate]

There you go

Oh fuck off its a dead link

!wiki page Needolin Locations

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Needolin_Locations

[frosty gate]

That's the one

[cunning carbon]

I mean, it’s not really GMS’ fault. She can’t really come visit her daughters due to her cocoon not having broken yet. And from what we can tell by act 3, she does care

[halcyon merlin]

she can still replenish phantom silk

while in her cocoon

no?

[frosty gate]

No, GMS still doesn't care

Phantom was "discarded"

And Lace hates GMS for good reasons

[frosty gate]

She should be able to

[cunning carbon]

How would she even know where phantom is? By the looks of it, her haunting is just exuding everywhere it can

[frosty gate]

She does it for Lace

[halcyon merlin]

probably because she put phantom there

[halcyon merlin]

yeah

[frosty gate]

She can sense silk beings hundreds of miles away

[frosty gate]

Most likely didn't actually 🤓 👆

[halcyon merlin]

really?

wow!!

[frosty gate]

Why would GMS put Phantom in a machine that preserves her sealing?

[cunning carbon]

Why would she? The exhaust organ is a part of the infanstructure made to keep her caged. It was likely the conductors that did that to phantom

[cunning carbon]

Oh hey, same thinking

[frosty gate]

Or Weavers, actually, I put my chips on Weavers

[halcyon merlin]

ramn

damn

[cunning carbon]

I’d doubt that. The underworks and exhaust organ wouldn’t be necessary with the weavers plans. They wanted bugs to prey and chant. The greedy pilgrims that became the conductors wanted it automated

[frosty gate]

Yeah but Phantom has no reason to obey Conductors, they're inferior to her.
The Organ was probably made late into Weaver rule

But honestly, it's all assumption

[stray fog]

Do lifeseeds have dreamnail dialogue?
Because all other lifeblood creatures don't have needolin dialogue

[cunning carbon]

They may be inferior to her but it’s possible she tried fighting to save GMS. Got her ass kicked and the conductors were like “wait, she’s essentially immortal… we love immortal slaves!

[frosty gate]

Phantom has NO reason to save GMS and also fighting to save GMS should've happened when Weavers rose

[cunning carbon]

Well we simply don’t know. We could speculate all day

[frosty gate]

Yes, I am implying Phantom is that old

[frosty gate]

Yeah tbh it's all assumption vs assumption at this point

[heavy gyro]

They dont interestingly

[frosty gate]

Lace did fuck em up tho

[edgy nebula]

phantom is an unc

[stray fog]

Glad that it is consistent

No retcon discussions today

[frosty gate]

Someone asked about Herrah being a Weaver ealier

So

Almost

[cunning carbon]

Actually Hera is a wyrm and the pale king was actually a weaver. What a twist

[edgy nebula]

team cherry if they were good:

[frosty gate]

Classy, since you're new, I wanna ask this for my own amusement

Who do you think imprisoned FS?

[maiden meteor]

Rule 1: Never mention Herrah the Weaver

[cunning carbon]

This feels like a trick question

[maiden meteor]

Rule 2: Never mention Lifeblood

Zote did

[frosty gate]

[maiden meteor]

had to test Life Ender on someone

[cunning carbon]

Yeah what they said

[halcyon merlin]

never ask a lore guy about lifeblood before SoS releases

[whole holly]

this is so true, i hope it doesn't become yet another radiance, and has unique aspects

[frosty gate]

Might be

[cunning carbon]

No no no I know the answer

[maiden meteor]

my theory is that Lifeblood isn't chill but Abyss Creature is

Void/Shade Lord sorta situation

[stray fog]

I advocate for the theory that lifeblood is very similar to the infection, but I still believe that it will (and already does) have unique aspects

[cunning carbon]

The thing to cage first sinner was her own hubris. She is so damn fast she needs to be dry swallowing caffeine tablets so the second she ran out she just flopped

[whole holly]

that makes sense

[halcyon merlin]

this is what addiction does

[frosty gate]

I agree with that, I think Void and Lifeblood are opposites in some way

[frosty gate]

I can agree with that

[stray fog]

Theres gotta be some connection between the 2 ngl

[maiden meteor]

I think Abyss Creature isn't sole source of Lifeblood but somehow gained control over it

and reason why Pharloom's LB is so evil is because Creature doesn't control it

[frosty gate]

But the question was between Weavers and Conductors

[frosty gate]

True, but Void clearly dislikes the thing

[cunning carbon]

Wait weavers!? I thought it was between GMS and Conductors. To answer that… I dunno

[maiden meteor]

I mean does it

Creature seems to be chillin in Abyss

[frosty gate]

[maiden meteor]

also what if Knight having no drawbacks from Lifeblood isn't just them being built different

[frosty gate]

Somehow, Lifeblood creatures are not haunted and there's no Void Threads in the Lifeblood place during Act 3

[frosty gate]

GMS was already sealed by the time FS was caged

[frosty gate]

TK has soul in it

[frosty gate]

Locked int its own room, no void around it

[stray fog]

I watched a video recently that theorized that void is like a catalyst for lifeblood

• lifeblood creatures have no thoughts, similar to void
• lifeblood room in the abyss
• an arcane egg in the abyss creature's room
• the lifeblood outbreak happens in act 3, once void is all over pharloom. This also explains why lifeblood is more tame in hallownest

[maiden meteor]

New crack theory: Lifeblood is remains of some HB consumed by void

that's why it's so similar to infection

[cunning carbon]

Well yeah, but they eventually began dragging all the weavers back so I thought maybe they could have found FS and been like “YOU! into the pit!”

[maiden meteor]

or Abyss Creature is HB that willingly accepted void

[frosty gate]

Here's the thing, GMS was not trapping anyone, she was consuming them

Hence the many cages in the Cradle

[whole holly]

i do think that, not only is their shell inherited from pale beings, but also their vital fluids are void, their physiology is unique

[cunning carbon]

Yeah but gods can be spiteful. “I don’t even want your silk, you’re tainted. Suffer forever”

[frosty gate]

True, but you gotta remember.
FS was sealed for "Apostasy" in a Bell

[whole holly]

i would like for Lifeblood to have bugs as vessels to propagate lifeblood, as that concept is interesting, it is about spread more than control, i want it to be different from Infection, in many ways

[frosty gate]

GMS didn't control the Citadel until the Haunting and FS has been there for a while

[cunning carbon]

Yeah but jokes on you, I don’t know what that word means!

[whole holly]

like Lifeblood Cult that ritually consumes it would be great, and winged enemies that have butterfly wings because of lifeblood

[frosty gate]

It could be, but even then, Void doesn't get too close to Lifeblood.

[frosty gate]

Something something heretic and falsehoods about religion

[cunning carbon]

Gave me the feeling of “This is our worst criminal, they were charged with scrimbling.”

[frosty gate]

I would like it to be all like Zylotl actually, bunch of scientists whose experiment got out of hands

[maiden meteor]

what if lifeblood is like nanobots from that Doctor Who series

and just triesto "fix" bugs

[whole holly]

that would be repetitive, at least Joni gave it more religious and animistic meaning

[stray fog]

One thing that's weird is that all plasmified creatures get their heads transformed into a zylotol like head

!wiki plasmidas

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Plasmidas

Hollow Knight Wiki

Plasmidas

Plasmidases are enemies in Hollow Knight: Silksong. They are the Plasmified forms of Groms.

Health

80

Drops

None

Damage Modifiers

1.25    1    1    0.9    0.9

Journal kills

6

[stray fog]

Look at its head

!wiki grom

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Grom

Hollow Knight Wiki

Grom

Groms are Enemies in Hollow Knight: Silksong. They are long burrowing worms capable of endlessly traveling through the Wormways without rest.

Health

30

Drops

4-6
Shards dropped with Shard Pendant equipped 5-8

Damage Modifiers

1    0.8    0.8    0.8    0.8

Journal kills

10

[stray fog]

Compare it to this

[stray fog]

Their shell too

This puts a dent in the "zylotol is an axolotl" theory

[frosty gate]

Fair, I had to look up the meaning to understand honestly

I love this question so much because FS is so fucking vague when you play for the first time

[cunning carbon]

Honestly I was very confused at FS’ revelation because I kinda figured it all out before.

“We are not her children but instead enlightened bugs!” Yeah I kinda figured. Aren’t all non wyrms enlightened bugs?
“She called us her children and made us work for her!” I figure the whole children thing was kinda symbolic.
“She used us as slaves to build her power!” Yeah, pale being tend to do that.

[whole citrus]

If the First Sinner was imprisoned by the Citadel for discovering Grand Mother Silk's 'lie,' why was she kept locked up even after the Weavers successfully overthrew and sealed Grand Mother Silk in the Cradle?

[cunning carbon]

Considering we opened her cage and when she wanted to give us her power she attempted to kill us really violently… I think she was just crazy

[maiden meteor]

imagine if weavers already knew the truth and FS was the only one kept in the dark

[cunning carbon]

“Yeah, baby eater Greg was right but he still eats babies… keep him locked up”

[pastel timber]

given the citadel was purpose built to trap gms it looks as if first sinner was imprisoned in the first place after the rebellion, further backed up by the FS = Atla theory if you believe that

[limpid summit]

Yup

The Weavers also staked their right to rule on their divinity

They kept the Citadel up as a service to themselves but relished the worship bugs lavished upon them as a result

If first sinner spread that truth around morale would be lost and the citadel might stagnate

[pastel timber]

the only problem is the lore tablet in weavenest atla directly mentions their "naive foundations", so it does appear as if the weavers accepted this at some point, unless they were just entertaining first sinner to make use of her rune technology and then imprisoned her when they had no more use for her

shes mummified in her cage as well, and clearly on board with the whole "pass on our silken strength to a future saviour" plan, which was assumedly the last thing the weavers came up with

so its still kinda unclear exactly when or why she was imprisoned

i saw someone suggest that maybe once she was mummified they sealed away her spire so that a saviour couldnt bind her memory of that truth because it might demoralise said saviour and jeapordise the plan, given that the part of her spire in the cage has been visibly tampered with

[frosty gate]

Well, Citadel and GMS have barely any relation, so that goes out the window first thing

[limpid summit]

There’s a timeline interpretation that sort of works with this

The Cindril rune harp talks about fleeing to escape GMS’s silken sight, and the web/service eternal

Then Atla talks about weaving hope anew breaking out of that foundation right

The web born of their foundation is service to GMS

Sustaining her with song like in the Widow cutscene

That’s the web they attempt to escape

[spark valve]

gms creating them is their naive foundation yes

[limpid summit]

By accepting their “divinity” they accept their subservience as her daughters

[pastel timber]

i think my problem with that interpretation is that the needolin locations in atla and murglin talk about "to keep us free", implying that at the very least those weavenests and their plans were post-rebellion, and given that the same locations show us weavers no longer present in pharloom (i checked all the tombs, no silhouettes match, unless theyre hiding in the z axis somewhere) working on those plans it appears that they were worked on before all the weavers fled

which points at the running away being the final resort of the weavers

[spark valve]

they say keep us free in weavenests
where they can hide from her

specifically they say that in the weavenest which demonstrably predated the citadel 💀

[limpid summit]

The running has to be early because it doesn’t make sense for the other weavers to be like “the Citadel will absolutely never cease” and simultaneously hope for the return of Weavers who would have just left because they disagreed with the most recent set of events

The Ballador rune harp and the Cindril one contradict each other if they’re around the same time

[spark valve]

they also wouldn't have to escape her silken sight etc

[limpid summit]

I mean to keep us free refers to the citadel right

The Weavenests provide a temporary freedom

[spark valve]

weavenest atla has the snare setter right next to a songshrine bell with memories of weavers saying:
"...Is it done?
...Our runes... Our silk...
...To bind her... tight...
...To keep us free..."

[pastel timber]

not really, we know from ballador himself and the caretaker (as well as implications from hornet being located and kidnapped) that gms still has a level of awareness and control over pharloom, meaning the weavers arent truly free and the citadel is simply buying time for them to create a more permanent solution, and when everything they tried failed (as per eva) they ran, with a few left behind to set up the citadel for indefinite running, giving them the greatest chance of a godly weaverspawn capable of getting rid of gms once and for all showing up

[spark valve]

the citadel is not buying time

[pastel timber]

if they viewed themselves as still under her influence even while she was asleep then "her silken sight" makes sense, as does them wanting to find a new life elsewhere

[spark valve]

"Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full.** Never to cease. Never to silence.**
We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."

never to cease never to silence

they firmly believed up until their deaths that she would be kept asleep forever

[pastel timber]

"we'll keep her held like this forever so that someone can come and save us no matter how long it takes"

thats buying time

just

infinite time

[limpid summit]

No the citadel is final

They just would rather it not have to exist

They want a messiah to come kill GMS

[spark valve]

also cindril is like explicitly not a part of a gms plan

[limpid summit]

But until then the citadel works perfectly

[spark valve]

the point of cindril was to leave and start anew they were not planning on coming back

[pastel timber]

right and thats final, the citadel is their solution to keep her asleep until that can happen

[limpid summit]

What Ballador Caretaker Hornet say is more of a metaphor

She’s not literally aware and behind everything

It’s the opposite

But by nature of her being a pale being she underlies every action

[pastel timber]

She'll sense what's comin'.
She up top'll already be sensin' your goal, vague-like maybe, but there ain't no worth to backin' out now.

doesnt feel very metaphorical

[limpid summit]

Well she’s awake now

[spark valve]

that's not even close to the same as the situation was when weavers and conductors were in charge and the song was still going

[crimson crow]

Im rlly interested as to what defines what a “pale” being is

And where they come from

[limpid summit]

Heart of the Haunting, long lulled to slumber and desperate to wake

She been asleep

[pastel timber]

this says shes not awake now

[limpid summit]

Long lulled to slumber and long desperate to wake

Is what it’s saying

Obv she’s awake now

[limpid summit]

Who knows where they come from

But people have theorized that it’s an innate connection to soul that defines pale beings

In some way

[pastel timber]

she tells hornet to "witness our waking" shes not awake

unless she went back asleep before we get to the cradle

[limpid summit]

Isn’t that silk heart one

[pastel timber]

mhm

the first one

[limpid summit]

When you fight her she isn’t asleep

[pastel timber]

well yeah

[crimson crow]

Mmmh i dont like that simply cuz thats what the snail shamans were in my eyes, a species that studied and had an innate connection to soul

[spark valve]

"Flee, sisters. Flee until your strength exhausts, so far you may escape at last her silken sight.
To start anew, to sustain, free of web and service eternal."

[pastel timber]

but all those quotes are from before you fight her

[spark valve]

also the idea of hornet being the master plan is idiotic, if she was the weavers would never have gone back to pharloom without her

[pastel timber]

its funny cause they didnt even go far enough, hornet was sensed in hallownest

[crimson crow]

Oh i dont think the tablets or anything were expecting hornet specifically, i think they just expected at least one weaver to come back eventually hence the tablets

[limpid summit]

Anyway yes as Tammo said

The Cindril stuff is very final

[pastel timber]

Ohhhh! She is here! The rare birthling! Precious child of Wyrm and Weaver!
widow seems to appreciate her unique value

[crimson crow]

Well we dont actually know how far pharloom is from hallownest

[limpid summit]

I don’t think the remaining weavers would have looked at that if it was recent and been like

Oh yeah someone will come back

[pastel timber]

not far enough to escape the silken sight clearly

[limpid summit]

To start anew, to sustain

[spark valve]

ok? that doesn't change what I said at all

[frosty gate]

What's the topic now? I was eating

[spark valve]

cindril's goal was a fresh start not to create a weapon

and they wouldn't create a weapon and then not bring it back

[limpid summit]

Whether Cindril is pre Citadel or right before the Weavers stepped down

I think it’s the former

[frosty gate]

Why the hell is this contested

[limpid summit]

"...Is it done?
...Our runes... Our silk...
...To bind her... tight...
...To keep us free..."

[spark valve]

[limpid summit]

This clearly refers to the Citadel

[frosty gate]

Weapons are Karn's thing

[limpid summit]

So that’s what they were doing down there

[frosty gate]

Karn?

No

Murglin

Karn was making Sandcastles

[spark valve]

there's even a songshrine bell right there

[limpid summit]

Karn’s thing is nothing 💔

[whole holly]

i mean, it is feasible, Silk Shot could have been for self defense not necessarily weapon against radiance, Needolin dialogue suggests travel and curiosity, wait i thought we were talking about Murgil, which ones is cindril again?

[whole holly]

she really thought she cooked

[limpid summit]

I wonder how many weavers were doin stuff at a time

Gang

[plain gazelle]

i think cindril was likely post citadel but yeah they weren't explicitly leaving to create a superchild, just to get out of dodge

[limpid summit]

Paths away from Pharloom

[frosty gate]

Cindril is the anklets

[limpid summit]

“Flee her silken sight”

[whole holly]

yeah, but what else is there?

[spark valve]

all the weavenests are pre citadel

[frosty gate]

Dozens likely

[spark valve]

post citadel they don't need them

[frosty gate]

Which is why I'm not a fan of saying Absolom came after

[limpid summit]

The Cindril rune harp must be before the Citadel because:

• GMS is asleep and there’s not really any evidence of her literally watching the Weavers in her sleep
• Them fleeing and starting over forever conflicts with the idea that the Citadel will never cease and someone will return

[plain gazelle]

weavenests are post citadel, or at least overlapping
"This low, her gaze escaped.
Prepare, sisters. Weave hope anew.
That we might break free this accursed web born of our naive foundation."

"accursed web born of our naive foundation" is very clearly referring to the citadel

[spark valve]

absalom at least doesn't have the same special door so you could maybe argue it's a special case but void can interfere with shit anyways

[limpid summit]

No

It’s their birth

Web is what weavers use to refer to any system

This web is singing for GMS (widow cutscene)

[edgy nebula]

weavenests are pre-citadel i think

[whole holly]

foundation is what really sells it

[whole holly]

i think that as well

[plain gazelle]

the citadel is a structure that they built out of a greedy desire to rule, that they later realized wasn't all it was cracked up to be, and that the mask maker explicitly refers to as a web in weavers terms, hence it's an accursed web bonr of our naive foundation

[limpid summit]

Weavenests are pre citadel but they were in use for some reason because we still bind entombed weavers in a few of them

Even Absolom lol

[spark valve]

A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule.
this does not mean that everything they call a web is that one specific thing it means that they call systems webs

[limpid summit]

“A web they’d likely call it” as in they’d call any hierarchy such

[sinful nimbus]

They call GMS's rule a web in the Cindril harp

And we know they're talking about GMS because that's what "Her silken sight" means

[limpid summit]

Silken sight means she’s awake

[plain gazelle]

also murghlin refers explicitly to needing to create tools because the weavers' power is fading, do you think their power was fading BEFORE they took over pharloom?

[spark valve]

they anticipated it happening

[plain gazelle]

what a stretch

[spark valve]

it's not a stretch

[sinful nimbus]

Sister, spider, sat between salt and stone,
Build those tools of brilliant mind imagined,
Aid us when our Silk has waned.

[frosty gate]

It really isn't

[sinful nimbus]

Where did you get the idea that it was actively happening?

[spark valve]

'aid us when our silk has waned'

when

[frosty gate]

As in the future

[plain gazelle]

implying the silk was waning

[limpid summit]

Or alternatively like they did go back after the Citadel already existed

[sinful nimbus]

Reading comprehension devil

[spark valve]

not remotely

[limpid summit]

That’s not impossible and doesn’t contradict Cindril being pre Citadel

[sinful nimbus]

It means their silk will wane not that it is lol

[limpid summit]

Because they already entombed themselves in some of them (post Weaver rule)

[plain gazelle]

also the "KEEP US FREE" lines at two different weavenests implying that they were already free, e.g. already took over pharloom

[limpid summit]

Weavenests were made to escape her gaze

They were the first sources of freedom

But they couldn’t keep the freedom unless she went to sleep

[plain gazelle]

made to escape her gaze yes, first sources of freedom never stated anywhere.

[whole holly]

or their source of life force(GMS) was not accessible to them, if steady supply of silk is lost

[limpid summit]

That’s keep us free

[sinful nimbus]

They were free in the weavenests lol

GMS didn't have influence down there

[limpid summit]

That’s what escaping her gaze is

[spark valve]

"...Is it done?
...Our runes... Our silk...
...To bind her... tight...
...To keep us free..."

[limpid summit]

It’s freedom

[limpid summit]

This isn’t anything but the Citadel

[spark valve]

this is the 'aha' moment where the citadel was being conceived

[limpid summit]

It went Cindril rune harp -> tools such as Snare Setter/Eva -> Citadel

[edgy nebula]

we've made it clear weavenests were still used anyway, "to keep us free" could just be referring to that as well

[frosty gate]

Literally implying that with those runes they will bind her

[limpid summit]

And then they went back to mess around whenever

[coral falcon]

I heard this Last Knight fella is annoying

[spark valve]

I may, lady. Search over from here, on side where the moss meets the nest. There, my mothers built their tools, all traps and bindings. Small things, but tests for larger forms.
I still remember their thoughts as they worked, their desperation, and their hunger. Another hopeless attempt to wrest their freedom. All ended in failure, of course.
eva describes the same thing as wresting their freedom

[limpid summit]

Tests for larger forms

[spark valve]

and yes the citadel did end in failure even if it succeeded for a while

[limpid summit]

What could that be

[spark valve]

tests for larger forms and the thing has needolin text saying 'we did it our runes can bind her!'

[stray fog]

The gun tool

But big

For gms

[edgy nebula]

tests for larger forms of what they wanted to make

[frosty gate]

It's always been weird how she says that all ended in failure despite the Citadel succeeding for a good amount of time

[limpid summit]

No mb bobbitt I was being sarcastic

I should have been clearer 💔

[edgy nebula]

ah my bad

[spark valve]

I mean it did end in failure both literally now that she's escaping and conceptually since the continued upkeep is still service

[limpid summit]

Does Eva have farsight

World sense

I forget what she says about lifeblood

Does she know it’s in wormways

[stray fog]

Maybe she has the mask maker sight, but probably not farsight

[frosty gate]

Fair enough

[spark valve]

enough to sense stuff about gms and hornet fighting and then black threading in act 3

[edgy nebula]

eva says "Our silken sight", ive brought it up before but i am curious on what it could mean

[whole holly]

she has Insight

[limpid summit]

Oh she totally has mask maker sight

[frosty gate]

No but she calls you a junkie and tells you to fuck off if you approach her chamber

[spark valve]

in fact that's probably her only sense

[limpid summit]

True

[frosty gate]

Eva probably has her own sight, different from MM

[limpid summit]

I think it’s probably just that

But is she using royal we

Like GMS

[frosty gate]

MM can read the masks, I think Eva reads their

"Spiritual imprint"

If that makes any sense

[spark valve]

mm is reading that too he's not literally talking about the face

[edgy nebula]

im not so sure about that, but i suppose it's possible

the weavers trying to escape gms's silken sight just makes me curious

[spark valve]

mask is the metaphor the mask makers use to talk about the concept of self

which is the same thing weavers call crests

[frosty gate]

I think the method is different but the result is the same

[limpid summit]

So who has Insight in the big HK

Bardoon

[frosty gate]

Like, I think MM can literally read masks

[limpid summit]

WL

Jinn

[spark valve]

true wl may have it actually

[whole holly]

yea, it is distinct enough in my opinion, since being multitude and malleable/transitory is not that similar

[limpid summit]

Does Midwife or does she just actually see your brand

[stray fog]

Mr mushroom has the same eyes as mask makers

[limpid summit]

MM totally does yeah

[whole holly]

Bardoon has somewhat close thing

[limpid summit]

But he has like super sight

[frosty gate]

Masks probably have some weird patterns unreadable to the common bug but clear for Mask Makers

[stray fog]

Hornet, thk, and hk have world sense, if that's relevant

[frosty gate]

Like Palm reading, but actually real

[whole holly]

he can tell when we obtain Void Heart, all the NPCs that can probably have something similar to the Sight

[limpid summit]

I think there’s two different “sights”

[spark valve]

the shaman might

[stray fog]

Farsight and mask maker sight

[limpid summit]

Farsight/World Sense and Insight/“The Sight”

Yeah

[stray fog]

I agree

[limpid summit]

Former should probably be called world sense for convenience

[whole holly]

i was going to say that

[limpid summit]

So THK has world sense but not thr sight

[limpid summit]

True

Seer might

Well

She never mentions vessels or void at all

[stray fog]

Did we count jiji?

[whole holly]

Farsight and Insight are different enough by name that nobody will confuse them

[spark valve]

silksong snails certainly identify a crest being gained for what it is, and the hk snail can sense the soul imprints of his relatives

[limpid summit]

Yeah Jiji too

[frosty gate]

Seer might have her own thing, she has no knowledge of Vessels or Void

[spark valve]

that's not really that related to the sight though

[stray fog]

She probably knows about vessels. Why else would she think the knight is the prophecised weilder

[limpid summit]

Because it scrapes every corner for essence

She’s desperate

[spark valve]

because it appeared and has a talent for it

[whole holly]

Steel Seer Zi might have something similar to Farsight

[frosty gate]

I mean, if she had the sight she would realize the Knight is a weird little thingy

[limpid summit]

Zi probably has world sense yeah

[frosty gate]

But she thinks the Knight is a normal bug iirc

[limpid summit]

Maybe the masters give it to different steelhearts depending on their mechanical purpose

[stray fog]

The Weavers also built an artificial farsight somehow

[whole holly]

Steel Soul Jinn can also tell after we obtain Void Heart

[limpid summit]

How does Ogrim recognize us as a vessel actually

Does he just have a keen eye

[frosty gate]

He trained with THK

He knows

[stray fog]

Tk and thk look very similar

[frosty gate]

He's on the loop

[spark valve]

she doesn't really say anything indicating that to be the case she just doesn't call it void which she doesn't have much reason to

[limpid summit]

True

[stray fog]

Tk might also have a glow that ogrim recognized because they're a pale being's child

[limpid summit]

Honestly Midwife probably doesn’t

Dream nail awareness is a bit diff

She doesn’t recognize anything meaningful I guess she doesn’t need to

[frosty gate]

I mean she could at least mention how the little one looks an awful lot like THK

[spark valve]

the wielder prophecy also isn't vessel related at all it's just finding somebody capable of awakening it

[limpid summit]

I don’t think she was involved with the project

[frosty gate]

You don't have to be involved to know they sealed your god

[stray fog]

Maybe all higher beings also have world sense by default

They're very knowledgeable of things that are far from their kingdom

[limpid summit]

That’s probably the case

I guess TK doesn’t have it naturally

[spark valve]

also isn't a higher being naturally

[limpid summit]

What does world sense even do for it

[stray fog]

Mainly gameplay things

[sinful nimbus]

TK has world sense but void messes with magical sensory abilities so it can't use it ofc

[stray fog]

Lore wise, they now know about remaining objectives within hallownest ig

[pallid arrow]

Hello

????

[edgy nebula]

hi

[pallid arrow]

Someone knows the queen wasp Lore?

[edgy nebula]

she trained hornet

[limpid summit]

Vespa shut the hive off from the rest of the kingdom and didn’t take part in the vessel project

They were probably around before the kingdom as well

[frosty gate]

She trained Hornet, she had a Hivemind, she didn't like Hallownest and shut the hive from the rest

And she got too big

Somehow

And died because of it

I think she died because of it, but whatever, she died

[edgy nebula]

insane how literally everyone hornet knew from when she was a child became huge

i wonder if it's just a coincidence or if it's intentional

[pallid arrow]

Ok,thanks bobbit,TwisTriker and AppleEgg

Interesting Lore and sadly

[frosty gate]

It's intentional most likely, you can look a theory of how Hornet's presence makes everyone around her bigger, it's called

This is a meme, don't look this up

[edgy nebula]

wow! ok!

[pallid arrow]

But? What do you mean?

[frosty gate]

I'm gonna delete this before someone gets me in trouble

[pallid arrow]

Older?

[frosty gate]

No, literally huge.

[edgy nebula]

she grew to an insane size, im not sure if it's ever explained

[frosty gate]

You can see Vespa behind Hive Knight's arena

Have you played Silksong only? Not meant to be mean, just asking

[pallid arrow]

I heard something about that if nature or trees disappear insects could grow maybe it's because of that

I dont know

Im not to intelligent

[cedar skiff]

and she remained tiny

ik shes mad as hell she got pks height genes

[pallid arrow]

Well

[edgy nebula]

could be possible, she does talk about how railing against nature is folly, but that's referring to pk, so we dont know for sure

[spark valve]

that's about the inevitability of death

[pallid arrow]

I also heard things about the growth of queen wasps in real life, I could be inspired

[cunning carbon]

Being carnivorous in the world of HK seems like a very bad idea, considering a pale being can decide to uplift any species they want. Imagine if a pale being wants an army so they uplift the muckroaches. Those dudes will be pissed when they learned they’ve been farmed for ages

[whole holly]

it is not carnivorous it is just predatory/consumerism behavior, since bugs are different species

[cunning carbon]

Hate to break it to you. It’s still carnivorous because bugs are made of meat.

[whole holly]

i have mistaken it for cannibalism, sorry guys, my brain is fried lately

[cunning carbon]

The media literacy crowd be like

[frosty gate]

Be honest, they'd be tyrants whether they got eaten or not

See the fucking Pharlids

They became fucking witches

[cunning carbon]

They would suck either way but they would suck far more if we farm them. They force you to have children, let you bond with it then make you watch as they crack their skulls open and slurp their brains.

Unharmed muckroaches would just make you work the fields

[frosty gate]

Fair

[pallid fable]

Fiddlesticks

[marble oasis]

muckroaches don’t give a fuck man they eat muckmaggots

[quartz spruce]

They're cannibals?

[graceful copper]

ya

maybe their diet?

[craggy smelt]

like tadpoles

[next ridge]

Wait till he figures out about spiders.

Also could someone work me through the layout and how pharloom functions as a whole? Such as how greymoor farms silk that falls from the citadel

[marble oasis]

you could argue they don’t get a choice but yeah

Tall roach tender charged to feed Muckroaches on a lean diet of maggot gruel.

[coral apex]

muckmaggots arent the same as maggot maggots

[whole marsh]

That's a pretty big ask lmao, I'm pretty sure we're still not 100% how everything works. But for Greymoor, silk is mixed in with the rain. Dreg Catchers catch this falling silk with their special catchers. This is done both by hand and in fields filled with dreg catchers (the tools, not the bugs). Thread rakers collect the caught silk in piles so they can be respooled. Silk Snippers cut and spool dregs from these piles so they can be returned to the Citadel. The giant windmills appear to be where the silk is processed and spooled. I imagine the silk piles from the Thread Rakers is spooled into giant spools via the mechanisms within the windmills, then when these large spools are full, they're split into smaller spools by the Silk Snippers for transportation via the bellways.

[limpid summit]

That’s pretty much it

[cunning carbon]

Silk is farmed in greymoor from the citadel because the morgue that cremates bodies is above the underworks smelter which is above greymoor. The silk doesn’t burn from cremation or molten flame because silk from Grand Mother Silk and the weavers is made from the essence of soul

[limpid summit]

Areas in Silksong mostly fall into one of two camps - they’re the way they are because of the Citadel directly, or the Pilgrimage

[cunning carbon]

So it falls onto greymoor along with the ash of its furnaces

[limpid summit]

Areas like Bonebottom, Bellhart and the Pilgrims Rest are all meant to give pilgrims a nice place to hang while they journey

Blasted Steps is the last area before the Citadel, and it’s full of elevators so Pilgrims can easily navigate

[next ridge]

Bonebottom confuses me so much because why is the entrance to pharloom from blasted steps but bonebottom is considered the pilgrims start

[cunning carbon]

Pilgrims rest isn’t really an area. That’s just a small building

[limpid summit]

Before the Haunting the Judges were probably just guards

They wouldn’t have outright attacked you

But that’s their function

[next ridge]

Yes that’s true they judged a persons karma

[cunning carbon]

I’m guessing most bugs travel from underground? The surface is literally called “the wastes”

[next ridge]

If you were a goody two shoes you go in

[whole marsh]

Deep Docks is where the fire rocks (forgot the actual term) is mined and sent to the citadel to power the Cauldron in the Underworks. I assume Forgedaughter is the one who makes the bells in the bellways, weapons of the Citadel, and probably refines other raw metals that the dock workers mine so it can be sent to the architects for building more cogwork workers.

[next ridge]

Maybe

[muted lantern]

Odd little background bugs in far fields, doubt much significance but never spotted em before.

[limpid summit]

You have to ring the bellshrines at the stops along the pilgrimage to make the gate open for you

I don’t know how that’s actually measured for each pilgrim mechanically

But that’s how it is

[next ridge]

Probably by the judges

[cunning carbon]

The earliest event in silksongs history is back in 2014 in Big Jim at Big Jim’s salvage yard dumped off 5000 pounds of small, novelty bells

[next ridge]

Conductors act as the main government no? They seem important if their halls are at the top of the citadel and also is where the rosary bank(or creation idk) is found

Artificers keep the place ticking, conductors idk, and the vault keepers retain history or stuff

[whole marsh]

Yes, they are the ones currently in charge. The Weavers left them in charge before fleeing Pharloom.

[next ridge]

What I gathered from my experience is the weavers betrayed granny in someway and left pharloom and in retaliation she silksonged. Which was easy because everyone already was boofing silk

Or what ever

Silk was a cure all for everything

[limpid summit]

GMS uplifted the Pharlids to serve her as Weavers, after a while they got bored or angry. Some left but the rest retreated to the Weavenests to try and find a way to put her to sleep, and eventually the idea for the Citadel came up

They ruled for a while but they began to die and left the Citadel with the Conductors expecting it to last forever

[muted lantern]

are these lumaflies?

[limpid summit]

Hmm

[cunning carbon]

Most of the locations of pharloom are like that because of the citadel, yes.

The conductors wanted to automate their duty so they could feast and live forever. They created the underworks so those they saw as lesser could work for them, the sewage from it made bilewater, sinners road and the putrified ducts into the inhospitable crap holes they are. The ash made greymoor infertile and the farlans less lavish. The smog froze mount fey which made the sands of Karak lose its water and shrivel up as well as make the blasted steps so dry.

The only areas that remain as they were that I can tell are shellwood, the marrow and moss grotto

[limpid summit]

I think they’re silkflies

[muted lantern]

don't look like silkflies but they are blurry

[limpid summit]

They got the upturned wings

With the spike at the end

[muted lantern]

silkflies have a long tail tho

maybe its just really blurry

but they don't look super similar to me

[next ridge]

What are those again?

[whole marsh]

They're in the background, far away so they're blurry. The ones next to Lace are much closer, and clearer

[whole marsh]

Little white bugs used as light bulbs in HK

[limpid summit]

Oh you’re right

Guess so

[cunning carbon]

Is lace technically a pale being? She was born directly from Grand Mother, no father or uplifting, essentially a modified clone. So would she be a pale being or wyrm?

[muted lantern]

Also i just realized that the huge skarr have a very similar move to hunters needle strike, Clearly not the same as no charging animation but it's probably a similar style as they are both hunters

[whole marsh]

That's... a good question actually...

[next ridge]

Most likely

[muted lantern]

Hornet calls her pale one, so presumably?

but idk if pale beings are automatically higher beings

[next ridge]

Well no

[next ridge]

It’s hard to consider if pale is for the color or the actual persons divinity

Not divinity mb just hierarchy

[muted lantern]

Ye thats what im saying

I don't think pale automatically means divine. Pale just implies a tie to soul

[edgy nebula]

i think it's possible pale can just be a descriptor of white in hk

liquid lacquer is called pale i think, and it isnt confirmed to have any ties to soul

[limpid summit]

Pearl Rosary Necklaces and pale ferns aren’t tied to soul

So pale can have the same definition as in real life

[sinful nimbus]

Pale Ferns are from a pale touched wandering seed

[limpid summit]

(White)

[cunning carbon]

Epilogue quest
Hornet: “Okay so the people of Bellheart are starving due to lots of food being lost during the quakes. Ready to use those pin skills lace?”
Lace: “food? I can just summon that.”
Hornet: “Huh?”
Lace: (inexplicably holding a basket filled with fresh, edible mushrooms)
Hornet: “The fuck?”

[edgy nebula]

what the hell are pale ferns

[limpid summit]

Star I have the funniest thing ever to show you

But not now

[sinful nimbus]

Crossroad plants

Replaying HK made me realize the grass n stuff is ever slightly low res and it throws me off

[limpid summit]

I think Lace is a pale being

By virtue of Hornet also being one

[next ridge]

But she was directly born out of flesh and blood a pale being

Lace is artificial

[cunning carbon]

Hornet is a demi-wyrm. Only halfgod

[next ridge]

She’s not a real boy

https://tenor.com/view/pinocchio-liar-lying-long-nose-gif-4149502

[limpid summit]

Yeah nah she’s not a higher being

But the game treats her like a pale being

[cunning carbon]

Insert hornet quote about one’s creation not devaluing their life

[next ridge]

I’m not hornet

[cunning carbon]

I wish it did. I could tank hits then

[next ridge]

Do we have a specific definition of what classified as pale being

We know hornets lifespan is very long

[crimson pelican]

so what exactly happened to Hornet after she binded GMS? Did she become like a weaver god or did she take all of her power? Also, what happened to Pharloom after that ending too?

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet binding GMS's mind and her innate wyrm/weaver desire to dominate makes her another GMS that haunts the kingdom essentially

Caretaker: It's feelin' almost time, eh, bellringer? You and her who waits up there. That fated meeting won't hold forever... Ready to make your play, to oust one ruler and claim her place?

Hornet: I'll not deny some part of me desires that outcome... Dominance, it seems, is baked deep in my blood, as too, no doubt, for the one up top.
Hornet: And yet, another part resists... A part, over time, I find myself siding with more...
Hornet: That part wishes not to claim a monarch's mantle, rather it would see my freedom regained, and this kingdom's bugs unshackled from their pale chains.
Caretaker: ...Remarkable idea you're speakin' there, bellringer, a world cut free. Not a wish I've had much cause to hope on, serious like... but I ain't so surprised to hear you speak it.

[next ridge]

Evidence of the crest going crazy huge and hornets masks going infinite. Plus she begins to grow more arms before the cut scene ends

The real question is what ends up happening after

I hope we get some epilogue dlc where we get a short chapter of afterwards

[edgy nebula]

since she's in the fetal position id assume she goes to sleep like gms, continues the haunting until she wakes up, and rules the kingdom

[next ridge]

The honest question is would she continue the haunting or would she just be normal

Normal as is normal ruling

[low oracle]

Hornet is probably consumed by her nature, the wyrm part longing to rule, and having bound GMS bascically makes her rule impossible to avoid. She herself looses her own wants, to those of the Higher Beings she consumed/inherited genes from.

[next ridge]

Like hollow nest normal

[low oracle]

She wouldn't be normal, since that would allow her to quit anytime. From the looks of it though, she binds herself to be the being she becomes, wether she likes it or not.

[pale narwhal]

its strongly suggested she becoms a new dictator

[next ridge]

Would she be tyrannical similar to granny or would her normal personality being a more heroic or just character. Because that would determine the style in which she rules

[pale narwhal]

the fact she tells Caretaker that both sides of her heritage compel her to seize control for herself

[next ridge]

You can have a granny 2.0 or a decent ruler

[low oracle]

Her personality is consumed by her nature.

[next ridge]

Womp womp

[low oracle]

Please stop the "granny"...

[next ridge]

Its so much easier then the entire title

GMS also is boring

[low oracle]

"GMS" ?

[next ridge]

It’s safe to say after act 3 pharloom is either abandoned or a new capital is built

I’d like to say the 2nd option

[muted lantern]

why does gurr have so many goddamn backup masks

are they like decoys he can hide among

[limpid summit]

Probably continue the haunting

This is a little meta

But Mister Mushroom doesn’t come around before Act 3

So an age isn’t ending because of WQ or TC

[cunning carbon]

Why does hornet rip out the green princes heart and kill him? Is she homophobic?

[pale narwhal]

i mean, perhaps hed show up when the twisted child starts spreading
we just can't explore and see it

[next ridge]

Do we consider our flamboyant and dangerously homosexual TROBBIOOO as a butterfly or moth

[blissful harbor]

hes a butterfly

[muted lantern]

Yeah shes homophobic

[cunning carbon]

I can’t believe team cherry would do that

[muted lantern]

very fucked up and evil creature

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-hollow-knight-hollow-knight-silksong-hollow-knight-silk-song-gif-5841834830524313630

terrifying

[swift needle]

Baoon smegma

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1460020445674995716/1460399346381226219/togif.gif

[potent timber]

How does the first sinner fight take place in a dream if you don't have the melody yet

[edgy nebula]

canonically the 4th heart you kill is a "challenge of strength soon to come"

basically it's hornet just flexing her power and killing a random person for no reason and putting their heart on her wall

or maybe hornet inherited pk's foresight and she does this as a test of strength for a dlc despite lost lace and the other three hearts probably being more than enough

[craggy smelt]

cuz Hornet is trying to bind her

results in a mental battle

she mentions something like this if you refuse to bind Eva

Yours is a mind strong and strange. That union could prove dangerous to my identity.

[craggy smelt]

couldn't take that chance!

had to have that fourth heart fight to be totally ready

[narrow horizon]

So she can hang it on her wall

[craggy smelt]

that as well

[twilit crest]

He’s a moth who identifies as a butterfly

[limpid summit]

The melody?

Wdym

[unreal estuary]

How do we think spikes form in the flora of the Hollow Knight world

cause like we see that the water in Verdania is replaced with spikes when we explore the ruins in act 3, and there's several other examples of areas that were once lush and filled with water becoming filled with spikes, like the Blasted Steps

but they're very clearly stone or metal of some variety, so are they formed from the rock pushing its way up in dead areas of the world?

They're almost certainly a natural rock formation, seeing as all of the spikes we know of as intentional are clearly metal and have been designed with intent, such as the ones in the Citadel

My money's on that when kingdoms die, spikes form like stalagmites do in cave systems, only more deadly and in specific patches that likely used to contain liquid or some other kind of life. The one exception to this would be in the Crystal Peak, where the spikes are clearly made of Crystal and likely were formed naturally as the mountain was pushed up

[graceful grail]

Why are these beads by these green bugs??

[muted lantern]

Shakras master used them to kill the enemies on the way to her dying spot

they are weapons like shakras rings

[graceful grail]

So, their just heavy beads??

[muted lantern]

Metal spheres made into a necklace yeah

she probably pitches them like a baseball

[stray fog]

I wonder if Elder Hu brought more people with him from pharloom

[muted lantern]

Somebody had to bury him, and put the we remember the elder sign

[cunning carbon]

What if he did that and then died

[unborn nova]

Why does overconsumption of soul bloats the body? like Soul Master and Groal the Great.

[stray fog]

Those could be his followers in hallownest

He tended to infected people in hallownest

[stray fog]

Its unknown

[muted lantern]

I imagine a mortal body/ a body of a non pale being is only supposed to house it's own soul. If you add multiple peoples worth of soul the body deforms as it's not made for it. Soul probably has some matter to it rather than being something entirely metaphysical.

[cunning carbon]

Imagine you're a person.
Now imagine you put another person in you.
Person²

[stray fog]

Yeah it is a physical object

a liquid

[muted lantern]

It can be liquid gas or solid i think.

[stray fog]

Silk is solid

[muted lantern]

Soul also can cause burns

according to vengeful spirits description.

and it has some physicality to it, with knockback

[cunning carbon]

The real question about groal is "is he a good kisser"
Let's find out

[stray fog]

Hed probably eat you

[pine scaffold]

Now I’m very dumb but does ||the ending to act three mean that theres a canon ending to hollow knight||

[stray fog]

Yes

[unborn nova]

Well it removed the possibility of sealed siblings and hollow knight endings to be canon, so thr dream no more and embrace the void endings.

[stray fog]

Etv could still be canon

[pine scaffold]

Ok so act three is canon?

[muted lantern]

It basically implies only embrace the void and dream no more could be canon.

[muted lantern]

yeah lol

[limpid summit]

Technically the endings are still “canon” as alternate pathways, but team cherry suggested that all endings will be accounted for in future content which ended up not being the case

Actually question

They said this after Hidden Dreams before Grimm Troupe right

[pine scaffold]

Well idk man if theres two endings what says act three is more canon

[unborn nova]

How would they make sealed siblings canon?

[limpid summit]

[stray fog]

They went back on their statement

[limpid summit]

People tried to come up with all sorts of stuff

[pine scaffold]

Silk song is you trying to break out of the egg

[limpid summit]

Saying the lace silkflies could break any seal

Etc

[stray fog]

The knight still can't show up in act 3

[unborn nova]

how would lace's silkfly reach hallownest?

[cunning carbon]

It's all a dream as hornet sits in the egg

[muted lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/whatever-go-my-scarab-scarab-assyst-gif-9837798423909404507

like this

[limpid summit]

Oh I mean now for sure

HK and SeSi aren’t canon to Silksong

[unborn nova]

What if the choirbugs indeed went to hallownest and broke the black egg seals (if sealed sibling is canon)?

[pine scaffold]

So it seems like the most cannon ending would be the one with the shade lord right?

[limpid summit]

We don’t know

Only because THK doesn’t show up in any form

[halcyon merlin]

imo yes

[stray fog]

Dnm and etv have equal amounts of supporting and opposing evidence imo

[halcyon merlin]

otherwise there's no reason to shade lord appear

in that blink thing

[cunning carbon]

HK was coming to pharloom to save hornet but he's really slow due to his crippled status

[pine scaffold]

Also that ending was absolutely peak

[limpid summit]

Technically even in dnm TK could just amass void and take a shade lord esque form

Godly focus might be what allows it to control more void with greater precision as a direct extension of itself though

[pine scaffold]

But it’s still strange that they explicitly showed the shade lord form

[limpid summit]

There’s genuinely no way to know

[limpid summit]

There’s a few ways you could like read that

[pine scaffold]

They easily could have done the exact same ending without shade lord

[limpid summit]

It could either be canon ambiguity, or just them showing that the shade lord is actually TK

[halcyon merlin]

reading it as anything other than showing etv is the canon ending is weird

[limpid summit]

And not some scary evil void monster

[halcyon merlin]

its like you're trying to find hidden messages in an obvious thing

[unborn nova]

I feel like THK would indeed appear in a future Silksong DLC, after all it is the titular character.

[pine scaffold]

Well wasn’t that already assumed?

[halcyon merlin]

"hmm the apple is red? maybe it isn't there should be something else to it"

[cunning carbon]

Only if you're a coward. Kidnap the story writer and break their fingers until they tell you

[halcyon merlin]

that's what it sounds like

skull

[limpid summit]

Before Silksong a lot of people thought shade lord randomly became evil or was some void creature and not just TK in a bigger void body

[pine scaffold]

Counter point why didnt they make it a green apple?

[halcyon merlin]

[pine scaffold]

Asking why gets you a lot of answers

[halcyon merlin]

i don't get what you mean anymore!

[cunning carbon]

How big is hornet compared to an apple

[pine scaffold]

That’s such a good question

[limpid summit]

Personally I think embrace the void is the canon ending (even though I don’t like the ending) as I think the THK no shell cutscene was meant for like future fanservice teasing
But even I gotta admit that showing both forms in the ending has to be for ambiguity purposes, at least in part

[stray fog]

She would be smaller

[pine scaffold]

I wish we could see their internal biology

[halcyon merlin]

by both forms u mean shade form of the knight in dream no more?

[pine scaffold]

I want to know if they have lungs

[halcyon merlin]

that's just his true form though

without his shell

[pine scaffold]

Also he did have void tendrils

He normally doesn’t

[limpid summit]

Yeah

[stray fog]

They can smell things, so they can breathe, so they have lungs

[limpid summit]

It’s got the THK-esque horns that it gets in dnm

Instead of the regular shade horns

[halcyon merlin]

i mean if he can become the shade lord that doesn't sound too weird for him to have

[pine scaffold]

Well normal bugs can still smell and a lot of them dont have lungs

[halcyon merlin]

[stray fog]

Oh

[pine scaffold]

Yeah but it’s still interesting that their normal form isnt just the shade

[halcyon merlin]

silksong is biologically wrong

what do you mean hornet has organs with that thin ass body

[halcyon merlin]

i guess

[pine scaffold]

Also it was so cool seeing her be the daughter of three queens

[pine scaffold]

I mean stick bugs do exist

And they are literally thin as sticks

[halcyon merlin]

its just that her design is funny

literally just a stickman

[pine scaffold]

Yeah it’s amazing

The knight looks so chonky next to her

[halcyon merlin]

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-yes-hollow-knight-nodding-yes-the-hollow-knight-gif-13130061661285170163

[muted lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/silksong-hollow-knight-nodding-yes-yea-gif-6093082880304835522

[pine scaffold]

Also thank radiance that the knight didnt have to fight silksong bosses

He would be so small

[halcyon merlin]

can the knight even reach fourth chorus head

[unborn nova]

I think The Knight is stronger and tankier than Hornet, it should be fine.

[pine scaffold]

Also something that confuses me was hornet shades in her cocoon

Why does she have one

She shouldn’t

[halcyon merlin]

game feature

[pine scaffold]

That’s such a lame answer

[unborn nova]

Jiji said void is related to regrets.

[halcyon merlin]

its the most logical one

[pine scaffold]

And it almost certainly not true

Definitely not the most logical one

[halcyon merlin]

ah wait you're talking about that black thing once you destroy the cocoon?

[pine scaffold]

Yes

[halcyon merlin]

ah yeah idk

[halcyon merlin]

should be this

[pine scaffold]

When you break your cocoon there’s a black hornet curled of

[pine scaffold]

Yeah but it’s still very strange

[halcyon merlin]

yeah

[pine scaffold]

They could have just put the cocoon by itself

And it would have been fine

Also why does grand mommy silk have a cocoon

[halcyon merlin]

it was to imprison her

[pine scaffold]

If I understood correctly the weavers put her there

[halcyon merlin]

is that the word

imprison

[pine scaffold]

The lore is so confusing and I love it

Although it could definitely do with being a little less vague

[halcyon merlin]

maybe this is a hint that hornet is void i guess its just regrets really

[pine scaffold]

Like what are the delicate flowers/ever blooms/I think they have another name as well

[muted lantern]

all we really know is they are from grey mourner/ze'mer's homeland the "lands serene" i think

[pine scaffold]

And that’s just so vague

It’s so annoying

[muted lantern]

and that they repel the void.

[pine scaffold]

And contain it

And are destroyed by it

[unborn nova]

It is from Ze'mer's land, but how can White Lady give it to Hornet?

Did Ze'mer gave White Lady some?

[pine scaffold]

Memory magic

[muted lantern]

I have some thoughts on the themes they might represent but the literal lore of them we don't have much

[halcyon merlin]

maybe

it isnt impossible

she was the queen and she was part of the 5 knights

[pine scaffold]

The white lady seemed to have know she was in a dream when hornet talked to her

[halcyon merlin]

she could've given to her

[muted lantern]

I think it's likely, white lady has deep knowledge of the flower and it's effects much more than even ze'mer

[pine scaffold]

Like I didnt imagine that right?

[muted lantern]

Yeah i think she was straight up talking to the real white lady at a certain point in the scene

[pine scaffold]

Probably from her being a higher being and all

Also I love hornets royal cloak

It’s so cool and tells so much story

The fact that she didn’t wear her weaver cloak the one she made herself in front of the pale lady

I wonder if she wasn’t allowed to or chose not to

[unborn nova]

Do we have any explanation of the floating platforms being canon (at least in the abyss) rather than a game mechanic?

[pine scaffold]

Maybe to show the fact that
One the abyss looks the same everywhere’s
Two the abyss doesn’t follow the laws of physics

[edgy nebula]

im watching this auto-dubbed silksong lore video and wow the auto-dubbing is garbage

sylphsong got translated to seplhid's dog

[pine scaffold]

That’s not how you pronounce it?!

[muted lantern]

Abyss has a lot of strange effects, who knows why.

[stray fog]

😭

[stray fog]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPlScMUES9B

chillcashgames

I really recommend using Obsidian for game development and worldbuilding! Its also great for students!
#obsidian #worldbuilding #notebook #gamedesign #reels

Likes

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This makes me want to do something like this with the hk wiki

Seeing how all the pages are connected.
Maybe I'll get some new lore insights

[stray fog]

@whole holly you know how to use obsidian, right?

[small pebble]

my guess for floating platforms in general is just a gameplay mechanic, excused by the fact that we only exist in a 2d slice of Pharloom, and they could be supported in the Z-axis

otherwise the City of Tears breaks physics

kinda like how if you take a slice of a sphere resting on a surface, but off center from the sphere, itll appear to float if you only look in your slice

[small pebble]

why would I use volcanic glass for game development

how would it help me

[unborn nova]

Still interesting that floating platforms in the abyss are canon.

[small pebble]

they are?..

[unborn nova]

You see them in the background.

[small pebble]

sweet mother of Rad

[stray fog]

That happens in some hk locations too

[small pebble]

wait maybe thats how the White Palace has floaty stuff too

cuz the King was using it for crafting

[stray fog]

There's one room in the crossroads that I can recall

[small pebble]

maybe he was actually onto smt thats one hell of an innovation

thats like the fantasy bug equivalent to when we realised magnets can resists gravity

[drifting walrus]

Well there is a precedent for it in sk with the magnetite platforms

[stray fog]

Now that you mention it, the floating platforms in the marrow are probably made of magnetite

The ones that break and re-assemble

[drifting walrus]

They are

[stray fog]

Yep

[drifting walrus]

The blue core in the middle is the same material as where you get the materium entry in mt fay

[stray fog]

It would be crazy if tc actually thought a lore reason for floating platforms too

[unborn nova]

I was surprised when I saw the floating platforms in the abyss background.

[stray fog]

I just noticed that the silksong abyss also has a spire like the hk abyss lighthouse

Elina says that the spire is a natural formation

[drifting walrus]

This is probably nonsense but it might have something to do with how ghost gets lifted up when acquiring abyss shriek

[whole holly]

yeah, how do i help you? i mean there is Obsidian Clipper extension that saves your webpage to obsidian and you can then simply connect different pages to each other

[stray fog]

I was wondering if youre willing to do the thing shown in the video with the hk wiki

[whole holly]

yeah but it is just linking other notes with [[]] tag, nothing too hard, then open up graph view and it should be connected, basically links are connected in graph view

i don't use it that much but i guess it is interesting feature

nothing too impressive, i don't use it much, it is a gimmick feature meant to reward people creating Graphs

[stray fog]

👍

[frank dove]

Then why does hornet fall

[wet walrus]

HERRAHISNOTAWEAVER
HERRAHISNOTAWEAVER
HERRAHISNOTAWEAVER
HERRAHISNOTAWEAVER
HERRAHISNOTAWEAVER

[pearl thunder]

okay grandpa, lets get you back to bed

[long leaf]

i've played silksong three times but i still don't get about green prince's love and the reason for lost verdania to exist

like is his love incestuous? and besides from being the 4th heart, why does Hornet have the option to kill him anyway, but in memory instead of the present?

[gentle aspen]

No

[void sierra]

Was there a connection between Phantom and the Pale King? (Or Phantom and the Phantom troupe, now that I think about it)

[gentle aspen]

No

also there’s no phantom troupe idk what you’re talking about

[void sierra]

Oh yeah, Grimm troupe! So, he's just his own thing huh?

[gentle aspen]

Phantom is a woman
and yes

[void sierra]

She's a woman? The journal just says "They", but tbh I was getting the impression that Pharloom was a matriarchy or something anyway.

[gentle aspen]

all of gms’s children are female and the needolin dialogue in exhaust organ calls her sister

[hearty hound]

What makes a character “lost” in silksong? Cause you have lost lace and Garmond but I’m abit confused on what specifically makes them lost except void and stuff

[heavy gyro]

Its just them being possessed by void

[hearty hound]

Hmmm alright

[edgy nebula]

i agree with phantom being female, but what confirms all gms’s children as such? i thought the only evidence was her being called sister

[twin dragon]

the divine dragon from sekiro ate grand mother silk in act 7

[gentle aspen]

all weavers are female
lace is female
phantom is female

[edgy nebula]

fair enough

[twin dragon]

Plus some translations refer to phantom as female in the journal

[gentle aspen]

I don’t like translations

[twin dragon]

It doesn't mean much, but it is something

[edgy nebula]

to be fair, some translations also refer to her as genderless and some do as male, according to the wiki

[halcyon merlin]

somehow its not incest and i guess taking the heart in memory also kills then in present

karmelitta also dies because of hornet taking her heart

and well nyleth and khann were already dead

[edgy nebula]

the lore tablet talking about gp’s birth says he was born apart from his lover

[halcyon merlin]

wait

is it actually incest

[edgy nebula]

no of course not

tc putting incest in their kids game would be insane

[halcyon merlin]

i don't get english then!

what does born apart mean

[halcyon merlin]

very insane

[edgy nebula]

here

[halcyon merlin]

incest > murder

[halcyon merlin]

ah

[edgy nebula]

born entwined, apart, as in theyre linked but arent siblings

[halcyon merlin]

makes more sense on why they are similar in appearence

[fresh badger]

I mean the more important line is the "lovers born on beat exact"

Like their link is being born at the exact same time

Not being sibs

[edgy nebula]

there are theories out there that gp’s lover never actually existed and that he’s similar to narcissus which are cool

[halcyon merlin]

does it make sense

if the cogwork dancers exist

i guess gp could just be making it all up

but then holy cow how much he believes its true

[edgy nebula]

well, verdania’s lore is intentionally vague and we never actually see his lover, and hornet calls him vain in her hunters journal, but i dont think it’s intended

it’s a cool theory though

[frosty gate]

Slandersong

[halcyon merlin]

hornet dooming the entire kingdom to void just for fun

[whole holly]

i like your new pfp

[frosty gate]

Shakra killing her master to have a sad compelling moment with Hornet

[halcyon merlin]

now that's good

[edgy nebula]

tyy

[gentle aspen]

It’s not really somehow people reading it as incest are just being weird

[stray fog]

Its all because of that twin princes line

[frosty gate]

Yeah, but it's just because they're two

[stray fog]

Yep

[frosty gate]

I never got Classy to answer who caged FS between Weavers and Conductors 🥀

[pine scaffold]

So are those small spiders you find throughout silksong baby weavers or are they a different species that became weavers