sk-lore

[marble oasis]

Welcome to HK lore lol

Where are the rest of the Bell Beasts if so

[muted lantern]

Near extinct, like the stag beetles were.

[marble oasis]

Stags have a nest

[muted lantern]

what does that have to do with the species being near extinction? my point being we don't see any other stag beetles either. Only the implication that the species lives on through a hatched egg. Similar to how we don't see any other bell beasts but we find hope for the species in bbs young.

[marble oasis]

There are corpses in the nest no?

[muted lantern]

plus the whole harness thing is kinda a moot point, yeah you cant slap a horse harness on the thing but you can certainly make one.

[marble oasis]

I struggle to see how it would work on a creature that long, that’s all

A rope in the mouth would make it hard to turn

[muted lantern]

bell ways seem to be mostly straight lines.

i imagine similar to the stagways

[blissful harbor]

seems pretty curved to me
game is 2d, of course the cutscene is gonna make it seem like a straight line

[muted lantern]

Sure, but just because we don't get to go to an area like stagnest in silksong. if the beasts even have a communal nest. I don't think just because we don't see corpses of beasts means bb is the only one of it's species to have ever existed in the region. Unless the species reproduces asexually it likely had a mate to have it's young.

[muted lantern]

Sure, but if theres very subtle curves on the path it wouldnt be a big issue for something that struggles with sharp turns.

[muted lantern]

I doubt it would be just a rope in the mouth. theres clearly divots on the underside of it's shell you could anchor a rope in.

[real folio]

Did anyone else notice shakras dash AoE attack resembles seths?

[marble oasis]

You really want to wedge a rope in between those plates?

[muted lantern]

less wedging and more looping tightly around the midsection with the bottom around that area, so that the shaping of it prevents the ropes from easily sliding off.

I could mockup a really rough sketch of what im imagining but im no proffessional harness designer. Im just saying it could be done.

Wouldnt try to slip it between plates that would just likely cut the rope

[limpid summit]

Yessir

Could be that their items create a similar resonance

But they’re of completely different make

[muted lantern]

ye its an interesting parralell, not sure what it means. could just be a generic shockwave effect for that kind of metal weapon

[limpid summit]

Imo Seth is an ancient tribe member

Nyleth would have had to choose a strong dude as her squire

[muted lantern]

it seems its kinda sonic damage coming from the weapon, we know both make a lotta noise

[limpid summit]

He doesn’t really have a skill like Shakra and Hu but he’s the goat at all the minigames

[graceful grail]

So, How can the Last Judge Controll Fire??🔥

We know of other beings who controll fire

Is Last Judge using the same fire as father of the flame??

[muted lantern]

I think she just uses a flaming censer

not fire magic.

[graceful grail]

Censer??

[muted lantern]

its a thing you burn stuff in

used for religious purposes

thats the thing shes swinging around.

its some kind of weaponized censer

[graceful grail]

Also, is their a actual reason for the bells???

I theorise that the bellways are somehow helping spread the Haunting. I say this because the music that is called Reprise which plays at the bellways is the dies idre

[muted lantern]

Music was used to worship gms i think, then was later used to keep her asleep.

[graceful grail]

The Widow cutscene when you get the needolin is when she wakes up right??

[foggy fractal]

yoooooo went to a catholic church once and saw that and all I could think of is The Last Judge

though I guess how the last judge would be able to create so much flames from just a censer is unexplained
unless you tell me that they can just do this irl too

[edgy nebula]

they do

last time i went to a catholic church the last judge theme started playing and i had to fight them

flames everywhere

[foggy fractal]

aw man

why didn't that happen to me?

[unborn nova]

What kind of creature is the large fossil where Sprintmaster Swift resides?

[foggy fractal]

[ornate root]

why is there so many bells in silkskong

[crude geyser]

For real. Why is it a bell beast?

[pale narwhal]

musical instrument. same as all the strings

the harp/lyre things that appear for every bellway and various other purposes

[crude geyser]

They are digging the ground and finding bells

[marble oasis]

No, at the time represented by the cutscene she was still awake

She was later put to sleep by the Weavers

[blissful harbor]

overproduction

[muted lantern]

The culture is very music obsessed, clearly a previous generation of the citadel was super into bells we still see the remnants of this with the bell shrines and bell helmets and diving bells and bell homes. I imagine the resonance of bells was used to either worship gms or keep her contained. Since we know the citadels song is what keeps her asleep. probably something to do with bells being simple and maybe their resonance holds some power since the bel shrines are thing.

[dry compass]

some kind of prehistoric bug, considering fossils were apart of hallownest maybe there were fossils in Pharloom but buried deep

[jade skiff]

Are benjin and crull siblings or dating

VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION

[unborn nova]

Most likely dating/friends, they're different species.

[craggy smelt]

life bros

[dire lynx]

the are friends

in a very aussie bloke kinda way

two mates who would sit on the side of the road on an eski drinking beers

[marble oasis]

He does call benjin old mate which is a weird thing to call your husband

[marble oasis]

You get it

[dreamy onyx]

does anyone have theories about the wasteland

Personally I think it's very interesting how there seems to be multiple

There's the one bordering Weavenest Cindril, there's the one bordering Blasted Steps, and there's the surface

[dire lynx]

its seems less that there are multiple and more that kingdoms are springs of life in a sea of desolation, kinda like in subnautica

[dreamy onyx]

True

I guess it also depends on how they work

For all we know the one from Weavenest Cindril is the surface

I hope Pharloom Bay sheds more light on that theory because if it's to the west of Putrified Ducts then it kind of has to be in a cavern

[stray fog]

I think pharloom bay will be on the surface

Or atleast a part of it will be

Because we see lightning in the trailer

[dreamy onyx]

I mean they could just as easily have lightning underground

it's not possible in our world but idk about the HK world

[stray fog]

Yeah

Video game

[dreamy onyx]

I wonder if the sea is going to be part of the Wasteland

[dire lynx]

we see lightning in the land of storms, so it is a thing in hk

[marble oasis]

They found a way to justify rain after all

[marble oasis]

Land of storms might be above ground though

[stray fog]

But every time there was rain, we got a logical explanation

[stray fog]

It looks like a surface location

[stray fog]

We said the same thing twice in a row

Lol

[dreamy onyx]

Could be

[marble oasis]

Well pharloom bay won’t be above ground

If it’s next to bw like we think

Land of storms is indeterminate

[stray fog]

It could be poking out a little

Idk

Was it on the surface in the cut content that people discovered?

On the map

[dreamy onyx]

It was next to Bilewater

[dire lynx]

the ground in the land of storms looks the same as the edge of the wastes in howling cliffs

[marble oasis]

Zylotol implies it’s there as well

[marble oasis]

This is because tc are lazy

[stray fog]

Yes but is there any area above the bay?

Can someone send a photo of the land of storms

The wiki isn't loading rn

[dire lynx]

i just did

[stray fog]

A bigger one

[dire lynx]

??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XZNmQz4YDM

shows the full area

[dreamy onyx]

No there's nothing as far as we know

I think Pharloom Bay is likely still part of the caverns

Though I could be wrong and there could be a giant slope from the surface that means the Bay is on the surface

[stray fog]

I think my brain just made up an image that never existed

Why is ts lost media

[dire lynx]

?

[stray fog]

I remember a screenshot of the land of storms that had the same blue hue as other surface locations

[dire lynx]

thats a different encounter with the godseeker showing her after leaving the land of storms

[stray fog]

Oh

[marble oasis]

The cave with the godtuner prototype also looks like the surface cave in ss

[stray fog]

This

This one

https://youtu.be/Mu4K7HZo9zA

[stray fog]

Yeah

This is definitely on the surface

[dire lynx]

i dont really think this is the same cavern as silksongs

[stark marten]

i forgot where this one was. can you tell me

[dire lynx]

godseeker memory

[stark marten]

i think it was like where you enter and leave multiple times

[stark marten]

ooo

[stray fog]

That was not the theory I was supporting

[dire lynx]

what makes this the surface as opposed to the wastes?

[stray fog]

I thought they were the same

[dire lynx]

leth said that dirtmout is underground, which i got mixed up on the quote for. they may or may not be the same

[stray fog]

Oh

[dire lynx]

wait, no. he says the whole game is underground

im so stupid

[whole holly]

is there actual surface in hollow knight world, one that meets the sky

[dire lynx]

i knew i was right, why did i doubt myself lmao

[dreamy onyx]

Strange, the Stag says that Dirtmouth is near the surface

• Howling Cliffs looks very aesthetically similar to the Surface in Silksong

[stray fog]

He didn't say that about the howling cliffs

[dire lynx]

he says in the follow up that none of the game takes place on the surface cuh

[stray fog]

Oh

My bad

[dire lynx]

its right there 😭

[marble oasis]

I lowkey don’t take leth as word of god on anything

[stray fog]

Its weird because all the other surface locations look so similar to the cliffs

[dreamy onyx]

Yeah

The wasteland in Blasted Steps and Weavenest Cindril is incredibly dusty

Meanwhile the one on the surface is barren

[dire lynx]

that seems to only be around pharloom though, in the cutscene at the start of the game there are non sandy locations

[dreamy onyx]

That's true but I think Hornet specifically mentions she was taken through caverns

I think the colour palette and the Old Stag's dialogue imply Dirtmouth and the Howling Cliffs are on the surface

[dire lynx]

this is the wastes

[past cypress]

What if the surface isn't the surface either

[neat ether]

does the sun exist in silksong? Mainly wondering because there seems to be plenty of light in the area before bone bottom, and clearly moss grove has a lot of plantlife to them. Is there an explanation when in reality the sky could just be a ceilling that led to I think the blasted steps?

[stray fog]

Its unknown

We've never seen a sun in the series, if that's what you mean

[neat ether]

Hmm, just wondering where all the light seems to come from then. Could godrays be an in lore explanation because gods exist there?

[stray fog]

Pale beings are related to light

Maybe it has something to di with them

[neat ether]

Silk does seem to somewhat illuminate things, like pretty sure the bonfires in hunters March are trapped silkflies or lumaflies

Maybe there's a big ball of silk in the air instead of a big fiery ball

[stray fog]

Yes, silk is a form of soul, and soul is associated with pale beings

[stray fog]

Gms is called the primordial source of silk, so I don't think this is true

[craggy smelt]

does the sun exist in silksong?
I hope not
(underground only forever)

[past cypress]

A single earthquake could wipe the average HK kingdom off the map ong

[median crystal]

When i play hk or ss on a controller with my pc my mouse just gets stuck in the middle of the screen and its pretty annoying this happens every time any fix?

[quartz spruce]

There's a surface world. So there's probably sunlight?

[neat ether]

A brief question about gms, what's the reason behind the snare trap failing and void spilling everywhere again? If I remember correctly, the reason it stopped was because of ghost or was it because gms finally died when lace was rescued by Hornet? I'm a bit confused about that part

[quartz spruce]

It didn't fail, it worked perfectly. It's just that Lace got involved and GMS tried to create a silk cocoon to protect her, and the void used it as a conduit to get to the surface

[craggy smelt]

booo
the 'surface' region in Hallownest was said to actually be underground, I believe that's true for Pharloom also

[neat ether]

Ohh so the void used the silk as some sort of link, since gms silk is still everywhere in pharloom?

[quartz spruce]

Yeah, it's still connected to her.

[neat ether]

I see I see, also what's the deal with lace and Phantom? I know Phantom was abandoned, but don't really know why. Also the fact that lace betrayed gms near the end also confused me, especially since even then gms did everything to save her

[stray fog]

Its because void seeks out and destroys soul

So it found a soul pathway from gms to everyone else

[craggy smelt]

GMS created them out of silk to be loyal daughters, sort of replacements for the Weavers who betrayed her

but it takes a lot of silk to sustain them, otherwise they eventually fray and fall apart - Phantom appears to be far along in this, turning gray and fading

presumably it will happen to Lace eventually, without a source of silk

[neat ether]

I see, speaking of the weavers. Who really is the source of the suffering in Pharloom? Since correct me if I'm wrong, the Citadel was the one who ruled over with an iron fist, and the Citadel was made by the weavers to contain gms, and then it was taken over by noble bugs after the weavers are gone? If so then, who was to blame for the Citadel's actions? And would gms be a 'fairly' 'decent' ruler if she wasn't betrayed and trapped? The haunting happened because she was lashing out iirc

[stray fog]

The Weavers are worse than the conductors and gms imo

they decided to ruin everyone else's life for their own freedom

[craggy smelt]

Hornet seems to lay the blame for everything on the pale monarch that ultimately lords over everything - the conquests and destruction of other lands, etc.

[fresh badger]

GMS would be a nonexistent ruler bc she only cares about playing pretend-family with dolls she created

[neat ether]

Did gms conquer other lands or was it the weavers?

[craggy smelt]

not sure exactly how much conquering Silk did before being bound
Khann mentions fighting against a pale light, but he might've just known Silk was in charge of the Citadel

[neat ether]

Wondering cause I wonder if a more peaceful ending is possible with her

[quartz spruce]

Nah, GMS is driven to rule and dominate. It's inherent to all pale beings. Even Weavers and Hornet feels the urge. It's just that since Hornet is a hybrid she has more control over it.

[craggy smelt]

she seems pretty angry about everything and wants to bind all souls and minds to her

maybe that was always going to be her plan

[neat ether]

Because from what I saw and understand, she's nowhere as malicious as the Radiance. Who infected everything because her people decided to worship someone else

[neat ether]

I mean if I was betrayed by I think quite literally everything I made and wanted to be my family, I'd be pretty pissed too

[quartz spruce]

Radiance wanted to form a hivemind, Pale King wanted to make an Eternal Kingdom, White Lady wanted to reproduce and spread her progeny everywhere like a weed.

Pale beings aren't really "good"

[craggy smelt]

I don't really see her as much better than the Radiance
Silk decided to haunt/enslave everybody because her people turned against her

[quartz spruce]

PK was actually the most benevolent one

[neat ether]

Just more wondering if maybe a compromise was possible

[craggy smelt]

PK at least seemed the most resonable, wanting to give bugs the choice to devote, made peace with his neighbors, etc.

though who knows how long that would have lasted... the kingdom was always expanding

[stray fog]

I thought it was because she wanted to wake uo

Wanting to wake up from a forced slumber isn't as bad ad throwing a tantrum about your followers

[craggy smelt]

it seems like she eventually reached the point where she was free to wake up if she wanted to - she wakes up to confront Hornet
but the Unraveled memories shows her intentions

...Bind their shells...
...Bind their souls...
...Bind them all...
...Raise them... Up...
...To devote... Eternal...
...One mind... One union...
...They are ours... Bound forever...

[neat ether]

True, but I think at some point if he encounters a hostile civilization that doesn't want to coexist he will go to war. Like any other king I'd assume

[stray fog]

Oh

[whole holly]

yeah, Mothkin and Weavers are pretty much analogous, GMS was following tantrum about her children/followers

[stray fog]

He doesn't really have a choice there

[craggy smelt]

PK and WL at least tried to be different, it seems
WL is still around, hope she behaves herself

[neat ether]

Also could it be that the reason the Pale king was so reasonable was because he was tempered by the white lady? It is the only kingdom iirc with two pale beings and proof that they can coexist with one another if wanted

[craggy smelt]

Hornet and lace are gonna go back to Hallownest and find pale roots all over the place, infesting people...
Hornet: Here we go again...

[whole holly]

Unn was better objectively as well

[stray fog]

A third zombie virus game

[neat ether]

She did bound herself because she felt the urge to breed again iirc

[quartz spruce]

Nah, he built Hallownest before encountering the WL. The union between him and WL was to contain the Radiance.
It's probably more the otherway around because PK's deal was enlightenment.

[craggy smelt]

it is kinda interesting that, Mask Maker suggests it's pretty typical for pale beings to fight amongst themselves for dominance

[whole holly]

yeah i think White Lady was there before Pale King

[quartz spruce]

Unn wasn't Pale, just higher iirc
Higher beings aren't all pale.
Apparently Vessels count as Higher beings due to being void creatures.

[dawn jasper]

E

[stray fog]

So true

[dawn jasper]

fr fr

[whole holly]

i know, i never called her pale, Unn was higher being that was peaceful

[craggy smelt]

unn is best god

best god in town

[stray fog]

Nightmare heart and shade lord are also chill

[whole holly]

you mean lifeblood?

[stray fog]

I was referring to the message about roots infesting hallownest

[whole holly]

yeah but it would be fourth theoretically since third already exists

[quartz spruce]

Apparently there's a theory that Greyroot and WL are related.

That GR is a lesser version of her

[stray fog]

I don't belive in that one (yet)

[neat ether]

Greyroot is definitely parasitic in some nature

[craggy smelt]

yeah, who knows what's going on there

[stray fog]

Need more evidence

[quartz spruce]

So maybe if WL's containment is breached you'll get Greyroot on steroids.

[craggy smelt]

they're both called roots, and have some similarities, but they're pretty different in major ways

[whole holly]

Shade Lord is chill i guess, but i am not sure about Nightmare Heart, they gave Elderbug heebie jeebies

[neat ether]

But could it be more of a natural thing from shellwood? Like sister splinter and Nyleth, both I assume to be the chill and not so chill side of mother nature there

[quartz spruce]

I mean, it's literally called the Nightmare Heart. Making people afraid is to be expected

[stray fog]

Its weird how every dirtmouth citizen keeps saying that the troupe gives them bad vibes
Even though we never see the troupe doing anything bad

[craggy smelt]

they're a bit morbid, but not really evil

[quartz spruce]

We never see it, but from their own dialogue it's implied to be something sinister. They keep talking about flame and sacrifice

[whole holly]

yeah, i don't even get it, Seer says realms now must stay apart

[whole holly]

one of members ate leg eater

[craggy smelt]

but out of love, though

[neat ether]

Maybe because it's like the grim reaper? They symbolize the death of a civilization, they do not cause it. Just there to witness or to siphon the essence of it, but doesn't actively cause it to die

[stray fog]

Elderbug: man I wish this town had more people
*people show up*
Elderbug: ew go back to where you came from

[quartz spruce]

I still think that that fire cult in Wisp Thicket is related to the Grimm Troupe. That robe the dead bug in Howling cliffs wears is very similar to fire bug cultists.

And they use living fire, kind of like what Grimm can summon.

[whole holly]

i mean game almost explicitly tells us they are different

[craggy smelt]

they seem like magical carrion feeders - feeding off the Essence of dead kingdoms

[neat ether]

They're bad omens, but not themselves bad

[whole holly]

why does Seer say Realms must stay apart?

[craggy smelt]

carrion feeders usually serve a useful purpose in natural ecosystems, I wonder if something bad happens if the Grimm Troupe isn't able to clean up a fallen land

[quartz spruce]

Ghosts everywhere, I guess

[craggy smelt]

it's a mystery~!

[whole holly]

and why does Brumm not want ritual to happen and intervenes at opportunity to banish them?

[quartz spruce]

sort of like how there's ghosts in Hallownest until the Knight starts harvesting them with the dreamnail

[quartz spruce]

Break the cycle of sacrifice. If you dreamnail him he says that they are basically just slaves to the Nightmare Heart.

[stray fog]

Maybe there is indeed something sinister about them that we don't see in the game

[quartz spruce]

Vessels, I believe the term he used was

[neat ether]

Hmm maybe it's members are unwilling participants?

[whole holly]

they are terror of sleep so that's something: "The expanse of dream in past was split,
One realm now must stay apart,
Darkest reaches, beating red,
Terror of sleep. The Nightmare's Heart."
– Seer

[whole holly]

i think so too

[neat ether]

Brumm doesn't seem to remember what happened with the troupe iirc

[quartz spruce]

Where is that from? I missed that dialogue

[whole holly]

Hunter's Journal of NKG

[stray fog]

Masks are known to change one's personality. So I think brumm was under some mind control type of thing

[craggy smelt]

for some reason Brumm seems to think their ritual is disrespectul to Hallownest

It is painful to defy the Master, but our harvest... it profanes this dark, quiet Kingdom. This once, I would see the Ritual fail.
maybe it's more that he sees something special about Hallownest in particular

[quartz spruce]

Probably

[neat ether]

Speaking of masks, some are born with and some without. Do the bugs have mouths or more traditional mandibles hidden under them? Which also speaks to the horror of the widow having her mask removed, would that be like having her face ripped off?

[whole holly]

Hallownest does seem to be special through by amount of Higher Beings and sheer effort of it's perpetuation, and it's history with Void

[stray fog]

There's also the white lady who has one dialogue indicating that she is indifferent about the troupe, and another where she says that hallownest shall never allow the grimmchild to become the nightmare king

[neat ether]

Hallownest seemed to be directly over a source of void, since in pharloom we opened some sort of portal to it iirc

[quartz spruce]

In Pharloom you had to take a diving bell down

[whole holly]

but materially nothing changes everything bad is minor inconveniences as side effects, such as terror of sleep but we need lore on how it separated from Dream Realm

[quartz spruce]

Apparently it's deeper in Pharloom compared to Hallownest. Also no traces of a civilization.

[stray fog]

The ancient civilization was there

In pharloom

[craggy smelt]

there's some - tablets, an arcane egg - just not as many signs as in Hallownest

Hallownest got that shade beast

[quartz spruce]

Was there? Never noticed. Sure there was a Weaver lab but nothing like in Hallownest

If you think about it, Hallownest is a tomb built on a tomb

Place is super cursed

[whole holly]

that Weaver worked hard to use void, sad she come up with nothing, she should have laid eggs in Abyss

[quartz spruce]

Maybe that's why Brumm didn't want the ritual to take place, because it would be like partying in a double Indian burial ground

[neat ether]

I think no one could match the white lady in the egg game, plus I belive it is said that it's a very painful and almost impossible thing for weavers to have children. Hence Herrah deal with the pale king

[whole holly]

all civilizations are, even pharloom

[quartz spruce]

Yeah, Weavers are mostly infertile, iirc.

[craggy smelt]

I like to think the Ancient Civilization reached pretty much everywhere the Void did

makes it super ominous that they all disappeared...

[quartz spruce]

It's supposed to be very hard to have children because they aren't a "natural" species, just silk mutated pharlids

[neat ether]

I wonder if it's because they were forcefully uplifted once upon a time by gms

[whole holly]

i am aware, but if she actually knew void's propetries she could have used it more effectively which was my main point, it was mostly joke

[neat ether]

Also why does Herrah look so different? Was she also a hybrid of sort?

[whole holly]

maybe because of birth had traumatic effect on her body and she later on became dreamer

[craggy smelt]

we don't know the lore reason why, though I saw a theory a few days ago about how she might have used binding to absorb some other creature and changed as a result
though it was a neat idea

[neat ether]

I wonder if her title as the beast came from the fact that she rules over deepnest or that it's her nature

[atomic widget]

I mean GMS could've just mutated them to be infertile as she wanted loyal servant daughters only

[craggy smelt]

it could be both~!

[neat ether]

She was big back in hornets memory which took place before she became a dreamer iirc

[whole holly]

still thinner than before becoming dreamer, i guess

[stray fog]

<Insert headcanon about how they turned themselves into shades>

[neat ether]

Fattening up before long sleep like hibernation?

[stray fog]

Why is my message taking 2 entire minutes to send

Hello?

Am I in limbo

My first message finally went through

[quartz spruce]

Apparently Herrah was a "common beast", so maybe she wasn't a pure blooded Weaver? Similar to how Stalking Devouts aren't true Weavers either?

[craggy smelt]

see, that was my theory

[whole holly]

maybe, she needs to be put on ozempic, hornet better materialize Herrah from memory after she becomes weaver queen

[heavy gyro]

She's pureblood because hornet is halfblood

[stray fog]

Skong states that hornet is 1/2 weaver

[craggy smelt]

that's just what the mushrooms called her
shows what they know

[neat ether]

A sub species of weaver perhaps?

[quartz spruce]

Weird then, maybe TC forgot.

[craggy smelt]

the Weavers would have been refugees coming to Hallownest and joining the existing society in Deepnest, they might've had lowly status in the eyes of some, despite their abilities

[quartz spruce]

Ah, that could be it

[neat ether]

Who referred to her as a common beast? Could be just a low opinion of her from others and not an objective fact

[craggy smelt]

the king of Deepnest was 'honored caste', him marrying an outsider might have been an unusual move

[whole holly]

Shrooms, so that's probably it

[whole holly]

who the fart was King of Deepnest?

[neat ether]

Deepnest is still viewed as very savage iirc, hence the mantis tribe keeping the entrance to deepnest guarded. And very well it seems

[craggy smelt]

I don't know, some guy

[stray fog]

Shrooms are knowledgeable, right?

They work under the herald

[whole holly]

generally sure, but doesn't mean they can't be biased

[whole holly]

are shrooms heralds children or followers? because they kinda have his signature color scheme and weird aesthetic

[craggy smelt]

who knows if they actually work under MM, they just are aware of him and write tablets about him for whatever reason

[stray fog]

The mr mushroom wish in silksong calls him "the master herald"

[whole holly]

but i think we know that he generally has Followers, right?

[stray fog]

So someone is under him

[craggy smelt]

MM bailed on his kids before they could turn on him

[neat ether]

Hmm, there's also seem to be differing species to the same named things. Like the maggot from bilewater is certainly different from the maggot that was the false knight

Wonder if it makes one okay to eat and the other not, like the roaches? They seemed to be bred for food

[whole holly]

lawl

[whole holly]

i mean variations of species are implied in name Silkgrubs are in Pharloom and Grubs in hallownest

[heavy gyro]

Stags also differ

[stray fog]

Unn, nuu, and salubra are all slugs

Green prince might be a mantis

[craggy smelt]

he is called the 'Master Herald', though that doesn't necessarily mean he is master of the shrumal - just a herald who's really good at being a herald
their tablet quotes him though, and mentions them as the 'spawn of self, their minds unite' implying they are his spawn

[neat ether]

Salubra is a slug?

[whole holly]

just Salubra, rest visually look like them even if it looks obvious

[stray fog]

The wanderer's journal says so

[neat ether]

I think more of a grasshopper?

[whole holly]

yeah, or locust?

[stray fog]

That is also a popular idea

[craggy smelt]

he could be a mashup

[stray fog]

There's different flies too

Sly and slabflies

[whole holly]

yeah, true

[neat ether]

One is elegant the other stinky

[quartz spruce]

Sly is probably more of a fruitfly. Slabflies seem based on house flies

[craggy smelt]

and Yarnaby

[whole holly]

are Yarnaby and Sly same species?

[quartz spruce]

Nah, looks different.

[stray fog]

Same animal
Probably not the same species

[neat ether]

Slabflies also seem to be one of the many slave races there? They're born solely to become jailers iirc

[craggy smelt]

they look a little different

[quartz spruce]

There's like, 100,000 species of flies irl
So there's probably that many in HK's world

[stray fog]

Yes

[craggy smelt]

I wonder how small sapient races can get

[whole holly]

i really want Grimm Troupe lore in Pharloom so bad

[craggy smelt]

Sly is pretty tiny

could there be something 1/2 his size?
1/4?

[neat ether]

We never see any mites or ticks have we?

[whole holly]

kinda unrelated to each other though

[whole holly]

we see. mites

[craggy smelt]

there are mite enemies, but they are beasts

[quartz spruce]

Nightmare heart gets challenged by Hornet
Sees she's related to Knight
"AGAIN?!"

[dire lynx]

100% true ✅

[craggy smelt]

the Great Gourmand kind've looks like a big tick to me

but he's big

[neat ether]

Are crustaceans real in hollow knight? Some of the enemy from Karak looks crab adjacent

[whole holly]

is beast some kind of category? since Knight is "not a bug, not a beast not a god"

[quartz spruce]

I mean, crustaceans are just sea bugs, so probably?

[whole holly]

maybe

we have Jellyfish

[craggy smelt]

basically like an animal
not to be confused with the Beast tribe of Deepnest, who were intelligent

[quartz spruce]

Beast is non-sapient

[neat ether]

I can't wait for sea of sorrow, when Hornet encounters a Sherrif pistol shrimp

[quartz spruce]

The bugs of Hallownest were beasts before being enlightened by the PK

So things like Vengeflies and Gruz are beasts

[neat ether]

Beasts also seem to have more than two eyes, and have a clear divide in their mask for their maw/mouth iirc. Like the bellbeast

[heavy gyro]

I assume beast means arachnid

[whole holly]

beast seems to be both Strong mortal and unintelligent one, kinda like how we stereotype humans irl

[stray fog]

Non sapient ones are beasts I guess

[whole holly]

Beast Crest, Chapel of Beast

[stray fog]

And people with a beastly nature

[dire lynx]

there are mantis shrimp and tadpole shrimp (ignore the wings)

[craggy smelt]

it can be a pejorative to refer to savage people, the Caretaker calls Hornet's words a beastly sentinment at one point

[stray fog]

Khann is the "crust king"

[craggy smelt]

oh hey, just got that 'crust' could be short for 'crustacean'

[stray fog]

That's the most probable explanation

He even looks like a crab

his hands

[neat ether]

Also is it a coincidence or is Khann meant to resemble Genhis Khan?

[craggy smelt]

I always thought the crust was just because everything was rough and spikey, like a crusty surface

but yeah, all that stuff is crustacean-coded

[quartz spruce]

I will never not see Khann as a power ranger villain

[stray fog]

"Khan" is used to refer to rulers

[quartz spruce]

He even gestures like one

[dire lynx]

crust is interchangeable with coral in silksong

[whole holly]

i think MM's children are shrooms: We speak the path of the Master Herald, he who would signal an Age's end.
Spawn of self, their minds unite,
Aside the source of acid blight,
Aglow in darkest, winding depths,
Winds all howl above fossilstone steps,
Monarchflys in airs set still,
To Root's domain and snail once shrill,
Path of Wyrm, at new lands entered
There journeys end. The kingdom ventured.

[marble oasis]

“Crust King Khann” is a play on crustacean, yes

[craggy smelt]

yeah, all the stuff in rhyme is Mister Mushroom's words - the tablet is quoting him
so the shrooms are the spawn of Mister Mushroom, their minds united, but not with his

[whole holly]

yeah, spawn of self is what suggested it to me, his mind is clearly separate from MM's doubt they can handle his thoughts, lol

i kinda hate Mister Mushroom, i hope he gets destroyed on plasmified by this beast

[swift needle]

Lifeblood seems to be the most powerful higher being rn besides the shade lord

Abyss creature i mean

[atomic widget]

The only good thing Lifeblood is good for is vitality. Its all about forgoing any offense and going all out on defence

[quartz spruce]

Why would the abyss even need lifeblood? Is lifeblood so dangerous it infects even the void?

[whole holly]

it does have offense, Lifeblood is basically infection

[whole holly]

idk, Abyss Creature is in Abyss though

[whole holly]

GMS, Radiance dead, Shade Lord resting, Nightmare Heart and Unn jobless and sleeping, White Lady punished by her own Guilt, Pale King Dead

[atomic widget]

All these newgen god man, they're all just frauds

[whole holly]

Abyss Creature only one with prospects and opportunity

[whole holly]

who are newgens? Pale King, GMS? Radiance is ancient

[atomic widget]

nah not them

[neat ether]

Is shade lord new? Since I belive it is void given form iirc, before the void was just like a super hostile primordial soup iirc

[whole holly]

it is super hostile primordial, maybe it is fossil fuels?

[neat ether]

So is the void just oil? Good thing the USA haven't drilled deep enough to reach it then

[swift needle]

The knight just fused with the void to give birth to the shade lors

Lord

I kind of wanted to see what would've happened if the hk fused with the void

[craggy smelt]

seems new, Bardoon mentions it's a strength that hasn't been seen before
though the AC seemed to know that it could appear, since the thoughts of an ancient corpse namedrops it

[neat ether]

I wonder, how skilled is the twelfth architect? Could she given enough time/resource/clear enough guide make a prosthetic arm similar to say sekiro? Wondering for something I'm writing

[stray grove]

For sure
But if you’re writing you don’t have to care about what is or isn’t canonically viable so long as it’s like, reasonable enough

Twelfth Architect made the sentinels which are sapient automata as well as the Choruses and all the Cogwork shit which is all very complex in design and function

Well the architects in general did

[neat ether]

Yeah, just wanted to make sure it's at least believable enough

Now another question, what exactly is it in the pimpillo that essentially made them hand grenades?

[marble oasis]

Let me guess, THK’s arm?

[neat ether]

not quite, it's one of those humans in hollow knight thing. Loved those so I thought I'd try writing one, it's for a future thing, it's good for their character development I swear

[marble oasis]

The Shaman spell for “flickering flame” mentions “ragebaked stones”, crushed to a powder, and it seems like that might be the spell that powers the wisp lanterns

So that’s probably the gunpowder equivalent

[neat ether]

interesting... interesting

[quartz spruce]

I don't remember there being a flickering flame

[vivid kernel]

Guys i have theory

yk how knight and hornet look like they wake up after they die?

they r in the same position we see their father in right before they wake up

and their father had foresight

so what if

they also do

and the bugs

they dont respawn,

they were never killed

their father js never saw a future where he wouldnt die

so he js stayed like that

[neat ether]

it's a fairly popular belief that they do inherit it somewhat, since the shade left is said to be lingering regret, aka the time they failed/die

[vivid kernel]

ah

[neat ether]

steel soul seemed to be the time where they don't have that ability, hence permadeath

[gentle aspen]

Respawning isn’t canon

and don’t post random meme gifs here

[unborn nova]

I think this is relevant

[halcyon merlin]

the theory is neat but in the end its just game design

[unborn nova]

That's the most accurate explanation.

[heavy gyro]

The theory doesn't make sense because if hornet had foresight she would know the consequences of the soul snare

[halcyon merlin]

she actually wants everyone to suffer as the void takes over

she is just acting for everyone to think she's actually a good person

[exotic kayak]

i hope the true ending of hollow knight is ending 4

so then silksong would follow that

cuz then pure vessel would be alive

i hope bro restored hallownest or made a new kingdom out of it

my boy did not deserve what he went through

[neat ether]

maybe it's very limited and only up to her 'death' ? since she didn't die when the snare leaked the void, she didn't get the foresight that would show her said future

I'm guessing it works more as a checkpoint/ autosave rather than genuine future sight for her

[whole holly]

in HK lore in general(including silksong) what are lore plotholes or vague information that needs to be expanded on? what is stuff we need information on?

[neat ether]

maybe more on aspects like daily life? How does time work there? What system of calender do they use? Food and cuisines that normal bugs eat? The surface is a big thing iirc, things that are considered as taboos for them

[stray fog]

They might not even have a unit of time

[whole holly]

it seems that most of these things aren't things they use, they most likely measure time by events and lifetimes, and don't use calendar, food and cuisines we have lot of information about, but Surface i get why

[stray fog]

The only unit ever mentioned is "ages"

Even that isn't a proper unit

[stray fog]

Masks, focus

[neat ether]

just wondering if they have a tangible and consistent way of counting time, like seasons is pretty consistent if you live in places with 4 for example

[whole holly]

yeah i get that, Focus mostly, Masks are just vague

[neat ether]

a sun dial wouldn't work for obvious reasons

[whole holly]

i don't think they care about time, but depending on species lifestages and lifetimes might be culturally relevant measurement of time but i don't think all of them care about abstract concept of time that much

[neat ether]

we have a few about food, but not sure. I think grubs and maggots have been stated to be eaten? Then some call their young grub iirc, which made it more confusing

[neat ether]

I pity their record keeper

[stray fog]

The pale king's death

[whole holly]

yea, maybe alluding to their culture would be great

[stray fog]

I accidentally deleted the message

[whole holly]

and roaches as well

[neat ether]

roaches seem to be more like beasts and like alligators here, literal sewer gators in sinner's road

[whole holly]

i get that but they might try to match it up with major events known throughout HK universe like establishment of Kingdoms, Peak, Fall and so on

[whole holly]

i fully agree

[whole holly]

yeah, and food as well

[neat ether]

I wonder if things like tiktik , crawlid or the gruz are food in hallownest

[limpid summit]

The gruz are

You see them strung up like meat in the kitchen

[halcyon merlin]

lugoli?

[limpid summit]

Nah the Hallownest kitchen

[halcyon merlin]

ah

[drifting glade]

hey! so i just got the true ending of silksong (ending 4 + mr mushroom) and i was wondering

how old exactly is hornet? i know she says several times that she's old, but are we talking like 70 years old or centuries?

[limpid summit]

We have no idea there’s not much of a metric for exact bug age

But probably on the older side

Like closer to the latter

No way to know for sure

[drifting glade]

i assumed it was moreso the latter since i recall one of the hunters journal entries saying she tried to have mates but none of them could match her lifespan

which implies she had outlasted multiple different mates

maybe it's a weaver thing

[neat ether]

eh, more likely a pale being thing. She is a demigod

[hidden crater]

Your throne becoming your death bed is just sad bro

[lime berry]

One thing that gets me is that the world of Hollow Knight they actually hae mutliple languages and hornet is Bi_Lingual.

[inner swan]

hi

[pale narwhal]

i mean, the fact that she speaks the mushroom language is kinda wild

[lime berry]

she mustve gotten royal aid.

[potent blaze]

couldve js been a demigod thing tho, but even then she can barely understand skarr dialect

[crimson patio]

Well she’s an educated girlie

[potent blaze]

demigod/ancestral heritage or sm

[crimson patio]

She grew up in a palace, after all

[pale narwhal]

dialect? she doesn't seem to understand the skarr language at all

[rapid bloom]

At least a few hundred.

[rapid bloom]

Healer Cookie!

And probably, since she received a proper education, unlike the Knight, who was fighting for his life since he escaped the Abyss.

[edgy nebula]

are there anymore cool topics to discuss cause i hate talking in sk-discussion

[sinful nimbus]

Bell Hermit

Or Caretaker

Not Churchkeeper she sucks

[edgy nebula]

what about them

[sinful nimbus]

Could they beat Lost Lace with prep time

All 3 of them combined

[edgy nebula]

of course they could

[sinful nimbus]

They just need to spend centuries cultivating a soul rich mound while honing their spells and its so over for Lace

Or they could go find 3 old hearts and teleport her to the dream realm to fade away 🗣️

That ofc requires them being able to beat the old hearts but they could win with preptime

[edgy nebula]

also is lace being a child not the accepted theory by the majority anymore

i feel like i see more people denying it

but maybe it's just a loud minority

[graceful grail]

Is there any way to fix this?? I need the LORE

[lime berry]

hello! ive visited pharloom before. pretty bad place as a pilgrim myself.

[potent patio]

why is the big flea so big? is it because of the memorium expirements

[potent patio]

not that i know of

[graceful grail]

😢

[jaunty brook]

Are all 4 hollow knight endings being canon actually impossible?

Because i feel like its totslly possible for them to be canon but many think otherwise

[high bronze]

Genuinely good hypothesis

If I’m not mistaken, some flea went missing from the caravan and some were just randomly spread and not associated

So its likely a big flea was bred and kept rather than captured

That might also explain why it was in such a cramp cage cause it grew into it and no one was there to monitor it

[distant magnet]

@mystic hornet get out mira q copiarme el server

[limpid summit]

We can logically infer from what the game tells us that our Knight is impure like the Hollow Knight was

So in endings 1 and 2 where it absorbs the Radiance, it will crack and die

[jaunty brook]

I understood that part

[limpid summit]

No chance of void heart

The other two endings we aren’t sure which one

At this point it’s an even guess

[jaunty brook]

How long would it take for it to happen though

[limpid summit]

Might be a while might not be

Time in HK isn’t concrete

[jaunty brook]

True

Hornet could've been snatched before the knight broke

Or after in the normal ending

Sealed siblings is a whole different ball game

[low oracle]

No, and it is even possible for the Knight to be pure/impure depending on the ending.
So you know how in Hollow Knight there are 5 different endings and in Silksong there are 3 (as of the moment I'm writing this).
My theory is that all endings are canon by connecting to each other in different ways, going over different timelines. That would look like this:
HK Endings:
Hollow Knight -> [End]
Sealed Siblings -> [End]
Dream No More -> Silksong (continue)
Embrace the Void -> Silksong (continue)
EtV (Delicate Flower) -> [unknown]

-Godseeker mode happens after the Embrace the Void ending, though it isn't largely important.
-Mr. Mushroom always leaves

Silksong Endings:
Weaver Queen -> [End]
Twisted Child -> [End]
Sister of the Void -> [End]

-Mr. Mushroom always leaves

Steel Soul always creates new separate endings, as it changes the fate of several NPC's.

[jaunty brook]

Fastest smite ever

[low oracle]

I've also got a question.

[jaunty brook]

Shoot

[low oracle]

I'm trying to screenshot something, it doesn't work. Wait a sec.

[low oracle]

This thing, I tried making sure there were only three endings in SS and this website is talking some weird stuff.

[jaunty brook]

Yeah like what is purity quest line

[limpid summit]

I think the timeline stuff isn’t unbelievable

[low oracle]

This is the website btw: https://steelseries.com/de-de/blog/hallow-knight-silksong-endings-guide?srsltid=AfmBOopE202gLp5im-_U8zugXPBWVIsVUSXqS0mqA37_60kcyyp_KL6Y

[limpid summit]

But TK is prolly always impure

[jaunty brook]

For sure

The whole winged nosk thing works as evidence right?

[limpid summit]

Yeah that’s one thing that confirms it

A lot of people point to the fact that TK can just do anything

Part of that is like gameplay

[low oracle]

Not necessarily, since Nosk also reflects the Knight as empty.

[limpid summit]

You can’t just have a robot protagonist

But there’s stuff TK does like giving Elderbug and Oro flowers with no incentive

[jaunty brook]

Or doing the quest in general

[low oracle]

To me that would just mean that you decide wether or not they are impure. I believe they always have the will to destroy the infection, the actions taken to do so however reflect if they are/aren't pure.
Just how I personally think of the Hollow Knight lore.

[jaunty brook]

I feel like the knight would definitely last longer than thk

[limpid summit]

I think that’s fair

But most people’s outlook is that if they have the potential to do those things then Radiance could capitalize on something

[low oracle]

True, since the Hollow Knight always knew the greatness of their duty, which led to their strong desires. I've got a question though, is the Pure Vessel THK if they were pure or when they appeared pure?

[limpid summit]

Wdym

Oh

When they were thought of as pure

[jaunty brook]

PV is basically thk at their prime

[crimson patio]

The hollow knight is just a title
Given to the one considered pure by the pale king

[limpid summit]

It’s what you would be faced with if you released THK early on

It’s misleading because “pure” in the context of PV refers to its purity like

Hypothetically

Literally it’s just “uninfected”

[low oracle]

Ok, makes sense.

[crimson patio]

Pretty sure after TK took the infection within itself, it will be considered the next hollow knight

[limpid summit]

Because Godseeker is like it’s bound and “defiled”

[jaunty brook]

Yep

The ending is called the hollow knight because you take up their role

And therefore

The title

[low oracle]

Anyways, I've got a different topic to discuss and question to ask. So about the Mantis tribe:
-Why are mantis petra only evil?
-Why is the traitor lord male?
(and what confirms it)

[limpid summit]

Traitor lord is male uhh

I think his journal entry?

Mantis Petras are weird

They aren’t a middle stage between youth and adult they’re completely different

But infection doesn’t fundamentally alter biologist like that it just makes you bloated

So people usually point to the Petras, Traitors, Loodles, big plants as evidence for a theory that as part of her Higher Being powers White Lady exerts an ambient growth/evolution wave on the local plants and animals

[oak palm]

Yes

[dreamy onyx]

technically the Hollow Knight ending could be canon if you do the Weaver Queen route in Silksong

[low oracle]

Yeah, but I can't do this without using some other software/app than discord. You are correct though, weaver queen and twisted child could both work with all endings, excluding Sealed Siblings.

[dreamy onyx]

sealed siblings has no explanation afaik

hornet said the black egg would drain her powers, so...

how does that even work 💥

[low oracle]

Imagine being Hornet, and just waking up in the dream realm with the Radiance in the far distance. Like wtf would you even do in that situation. Stop floating? Is that even possible, and could you float towards the Radiance?

[marble oasis]

Well it’s also just what it was called back then, even mistakenly
Abyss tablet calls it “our pure vessel”

It is The pure vessel, the one good enough to be chosen

[tawdry flare]

?tag info jokerpsa

https://youtube.com/clip/UgzlVc4LM4J6_DfuscZ4AaABCQ

No ending stops Hornet from being captured, and the ability to break seals with bugs from Pharloom makes Hornet being locked in the Black Egg not an issue. Dreamers also don’t die when sealed, we simply didn’t have the means to remove them without killing them.

[low oracle]

Journal entry has nothing. I don't get what Loodles have to do with this, but the Traitor Lord took in the infection to get stronger. The mantis traitors look different because:
A) - The infection pushed their body into an early stage of becomming a mantis lord
B) - They cosplay the traitor lord to signal their strength and following

The traitor lord should be female, as pretty much everything points to it. The sisters of battle shouldn't be a new title and the three other lords are all female.

The mantis petra attack like the mantis lords, using some sort of curved projectile. That could tie back to A), that the infection pushed their body beyond their natural stage of life.

[low oracle]

The black egg could literally stop an extremely powerful god from escaping. Even if the infection leaked, the physical form couldn't be reached without a higher being stepping in.

[limpid summit]

Taking in the infection doesn’t change your biology like that

Traitor Lord is huge because he’s bloated with infection but his physiology is different for other reasons

For reference Soul Master looks pretty much exactly like a Twister

[tawdry flare]

You mean like the Higher Being whose creations/children/whatever designed the seal of binding?

[low oracle]

Maybe it does though? His body is the same as that of mantis lords, only far bigger and stronger. Not necessarily bloated either, that seemingly came from soul alone.

[limpid summit]

Deposed Lord of the Mantis tribe. Embraced the infection and turned against his sisters.

[eternal hamlet]

Hornet is a pale being, which pale beings have an innate amount of power over soul, like grand mother silk has a power over silk that is nearly unrivaled, so does hornet. Soul and Silk, are 1 and the same. Soul is the raw unfiltered power and silk is a far more refined source of power. This is what made the weavers so powerful, they can weave soul into a thread and use it, not to mention silk itself IRL is already one of the strongest materials, so it does not surprise me that hornet's power would be drained too in the sealed siblings ending, because there is much power to be gleamed from her.

[marble oasis]

TL used to be a girl but they changed it

[low oracle]

Huh? Why?

[hexed jasper]

The traitor lord would probably be a male, since male mantises are genetically a lot weaker than female mantises and only exist to breed and be eaten afterwards i think it would fit the lore that he would want to get stronger, leading to him getting infected by his own will

[limpid summit]

Probably was a mistake initially

Like Kingsmoulds having infected eyes in the journal

[oak palm]

Read traitor lord's journal entry

It has literally of that

It calls him a he and says he took it in to make it stronger

[limpid summit]

TL is vastly different from a Lord his abdomen is gigantic compared to his thorax and his (and the other traitors) arms become giant claws

[oak palm]

Yeah they changed the pronouns in an update

[low oracle]

He took in the infection willingly though, possibly even consuming the physical orange parts of it. While it could tie back to the lore, the traitor Lord already had the place of a mantis lord. So there is no reason for them to want more strength, if not for greed. Additionally, it just wouldn't realistically make sense for literally every male mantis to join the Traitors.

[oak palm]

What even is this argument about

I'm lost

[marble oasis]

no reason for him to want more strength if not for greed

Well that’s exactly it. You’ve got it in one

[low oracle]

Normal mantises use claws too, I think the Sisters simply haven't extended them or something (?), so they can use spears. Could you please also send the other mantises for comparison?

[eternal hamlet]

I mean, there is a rather simple reason why someone would want more strength.
Domination. To have dominion over all.

[oak palm]

Yeah? It's not rocket science

[low oracle]

That's literally greed.

[eternal hamlet]

exactly

[hexed jasper]

I'm just suggesting, I'm not exactly an expert about the lore myself i just think it sounds reasonable

[limpid summit]

That isn’t just infection bloating

They’re basically different guys

And it’s not sexual dimorphism either

[eternal hamlet]

Traitor lord prob had his eye on all of hallownest, which is why the sisters threw him out because hes a tyrannical lord, and they dont want to draw the ire of the Pale king, because they have already seen what happens to people who draw his ire

[limpid summit]

The Traitors can’t just be males because Hunter makes a point to say that with the destruction of Hallownest the Mantises stand strong

If your birth rate plummets because all the males leave that’s not exactly a flourishing tribe

Traitor lord was prolly xenophobic and opportunistic

[marble oasis]

I think it’s possible that not all the males left but only males left, although I doubt that too

[low oracle]

Then here is my list of possibilities:
1 - You are right (I don't agree)
2 - Team Cherry just didn't really care, they just made cool designs
3 - I'm right, and the infection changed their bodies, which would also explain how mantis petra work
4 - We are all to stupid to know the true answer
5 - Point five so there aren't just four points

[hexed jasper]

I dont think they all left I'm just talking about traitor lord

[low oracle]

That also doesn't make sense, since the traitors set up their camp for a somewhat longer period of time.

[limpid summit]

Ellina says in the WJ that the Infection amplifies their size and strength

And yeah

But bro

[marble oasis]

petras just seem more grown than the youths in general

[limpid summit]

Yeah but they look like grown youths

Not like warriors

It’s like if you evolved a youth into a regional form

[eternal hamlet]

1. I think that realistically this is more of a design choice to differentiate the 2 outside of lore
2. Within lore, there is an explanation. Evolution. The environment they chose to go to, the queen's gardens, had lots of spikes, lots of dangerous terrain, so it made sense that they'd evolve down a more planted and sturdy body shape, because they would need those traits. Same goes for the fliers. The Fungal wastes are a very vertical area, meaning that they evolved down a much more slender body shape able to cover more vertical ground. Meanwhile, the queen's gardens are a very horizontal area, meaning they spec'd more heavily into wing usage and a more sturdy body.

[limpid summit]

That’s the kicker

Evolution

Mossflies and Loodles are essentially “evolved” Mosscreeps with exaggerated or unique features

[unborn nova]

But how long did they stay in Queen's Garden for the evolution to happen?

[limpid summit]

The plants in Queens Gardens are much larger than Greenpath

[marble oasis]

quick evolution no?

maybe that’s what wl accelerated

[limpid summit]

People have taken this and other stuff like Marmu to wonder if White Lady accelerates evolution

FUCK

[eternal hamlet]

I mean, the queen's gardens are a minefield of spikey plants, random traps, jumping spikey creatures, you'd want wings too lol

[hexed jasper]

Unrelated, most male mantises can fly and most female mantises can't fly, at least not like these enemies do in the game, but in the hunters journal its said that the mantises lose their wings when they grow up (not really accurate to bug lore, no creature loses the ability to fly) soo does that mean both genders can fly in the hk universe or no, just asking for yalls opinion

[unborn nova]

Maybe the infection accelerates it somehow.

[marble oasis]

[eternal hamlet]

I mean, evolution can happen very quickly
Just 6000 years ago, humans couldnt digest any dairy products beyond infancy

[marble oasis]

“just 6000 years ago”

[limpid summit]

I bet this guy feels really evolved

[winged dome]

Wat?

[limpid summit]

It probably does

[eternal hamlet]

in the grand scheme of the 700 thousand years that humans have been around

[limpid summit]

TC uses irl bug facts as a baseline for some things that their species do

[unborn nova]

Pretty sure the traitor mantis stayed in Queen's Garden for much less than 6k years equivalent

[limpid summit]

But artistic license says they can deviate

[winged dome]

Knight seifador

[limpid summit]

I don’t think termite queens (Divine) eat their mates

[eternal hamlet]

I mean it is kinda a copout, but realistically it was just kinda a design choice made my teamcherry to differentiate the 2 enemy types in game lol

[hexed jasper]

I'm pretty sure they do, though I'm not 99% sure

many bugs eat their mates

[sinful nimbus]

Pteras/traitor mantises have horns which are characteristics of the mantis lords, I'm not really sure how evolution could explain that

But its also true that time isn't really an issue the traitors have been in Queen's Gardens for a while (Aeons according to Grey Mourner)

[unborn nova]

The mantis lords have horns also but the regular mantis don't.

[sinful nimbus]

Which is why its odd that all traitors have them

[eternal hamlet]

Aeons being an unspecified really really long time, usually millions of years in modern media

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[marble oasis]

GM is just over dramatic

[limpid summit]

I don’t think she’s a very reliable narrator

[hexed jasper]

I'm pretty sure it makes them grow a lot faster, appleegg sent a picture of the infected crossroads mosquito and doesn't it look a lot like the vengefly king?

[limpid summit]

Dead so long in time

That was probably even before they got infected

Cause they didn’t bury her

[sinful nimbus]

She's not really painted as unreliable

I don't know why its so implausible that the mantes have been in Queen's Gardens for a long time

[unborn nova]

I'll say the time between the hollow knight sealing and the current event of Hollow Knight is a few centuries at longest.
no way near millions ofn years.

[limpid summit]

“One of a kind”

[sinful nimbus]

Is this about the flower

[limpid summit]

Yes

[marble oasis]

no no this second one really is the last one bro trust

[limpid summit]

Nah it’s just a fat vengefly it doesn’t have the extra mandible that VK has

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think that dialogue is enough to discount everything she says dawg 😭

[hexed jasper]

fair, but it does look similar

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway yeah White Lady growth seems the most plausible assuming this isn't just a weird design quirk of the traitors (Which is lame)

[marble oasis]

nor the extra pair of wings

[limpid summit]

It’s the core of her motivation

She doesn’t have to say one of a kind

She’s “mysterious”

Does that just mean she was a serial liar

Opium Ze’mer

[marble oasis]

People have vilified WL for less

[sinful nimbus]

Pretty sure they were trying to say delicate flowers are unique

[limpid summit]

She also says one of it’s kind

As in it’s the only one

[sinful nimbus]

yeah that's just weird

[tawdry flare]

Maybe that just means unique in Australian dialect

[limpid summit]

True

[sinful nimbus]

Its also just kind of a joke though

Ulll Waaaaii! Che's sacred, precious, one of its kind flower. Ruined. Che's love, denied her final gift. Such suffering for che'. Such misery. Che' thought she could bear no more.
...I suppose, che' does have one more flower though.

[marble oasis]

no

[foggy fractal]

ze'mer's such a troll smh

[blissful harbor]

zemer just doesn’t want to give away her whole stash

[limpid summit]

Does this downscale Zemer

[sinful nimbus]

Weakest great knight

[limpid summit]

People act like she’s top 2 knights but this should be like crossing the street for her

Should have been an accompanying quest like Zaza

If you cross the screen without her she respawns at the house

[blissful harbor]

she’s sad

[sinful nimbus]

who is acting like she's top 2 knights

That's Ogrim and Isma

Isma is an old heart 🥀

Ogrim is like her Seth

[unborn nova]

Why Ogrim and Isma?

[sinful nimbus]

Vibes

[low oracle]

Why this could be the results of the infection altering their biology:
The Mantis Lords are the most powerful of their tribe, and likely also the eldest. The mantises are born with wings and an artificial metal spike at their behind (idk bug biology). They most likely keep their wings, though their bodies have become too large to use them. Their simple black limbs also evolve into longs, sharp claws. When a mantis has reached the stage of becomming a lord, their wings (+the thing above wings idk bug biology) fall off completely and they put on a short cloak. It also seems that their claws have become retractable, though they may have also been beforehand. Additionally, in each stage the head shapes vastly. A mantis lord has two sharp mandibles (or something)
The mantis traitors have the same headpiece as the mantis lords, though they still have their wings. Their claws are also more broad. The Traitor Lord has no wings, but the same short cloak as the mantises. Unlike the mantis traitors however, their claws aren't as broad as they are long. Instead of being only wide, they look like a more natural bigger version of the normal mantis claws. Mantis claws might also be something the mantises pick up like a weapon, but i won't dive to deep into it since it seems questionable to say the least.
The bodies of the traitors being so different isn't anything unnormal. In each stage of life, mantises are vastly different in their appearance.
Additionally, the petra takes up an entirely new head shape, one stuck between youth and adult. Furthermore, the body resmbles that of a mantis lord the most. So I think I can say for sure that the infection somehow manipulated their biology forcefully enter another stage of their life.
Perhaps that is also what strength is; becoming a lord. So it isn't out of the question that the mantises achieved strength by drawing themselves closer to that status.

[tawdry flare]

Seth if his purpose wasn’t contradictory

[sinful nimbus]

What if Nyleth's guard was a dung beetle

[unborn nova]

Seth's purpose is contradictory?

[sinful nimbus]

They fertilize the groves

Tuff lore drop

[tawdry flare]

That would be so fire

[low oracle]

"Please shit on me babe"

[marble oasis]

Then this new, sacred, one of its kind flower che' shall give you.

Maybe it’s a joke, idk

[marble oasis]

Isma is not an old heart… probably

[sinful nimbus]

Says who

I guess not all wandering seeds have to be old hearts like how not every ant is an old heart but laaame

If anyone was a heart it would be Isma

[low oracle]

An old heart is literally just someone powerful that is somewhat old. The five Knights are all old hearts, and so is Sly.

[sinful nimbus]

What?

[lapis creek]

an old heart is a heart

[tawdry flare]

Let’s not be rash

[lapis creek]

i dont know why we call the people old hearts

[low oracle]

How so? They are all old and powerful.

[marble oasis]

Literally what is that definition lmao

[sinful nimbus]

Old Hearts are individuals who have inherited the powers of the lands not just anyone strong

[low oracle]

Pretty much what SS gives us. I mean come on, how tf is Green Prince "old"?

[lapis creek]

sly is an embodiment of the spirit of capitalism

if you tear out his heart the stock market will go down

[marble oasis]

She gives life to her grove like one but that’s a tiny area compared to the areas of influence in SS and also only occurred postmortem I think

[sinful nimbus]

What is so strange about Green Prince being old

[lapis creek]

it will take bugs like you to sow the seeds

[tawdry flare]

The way I interpreted the definition of Old Heart is a mortal(?) bug that’s a leader that is revered and has ingrained themselves in the memory of the land

[sinful nimbus]

She's in the early stages

[marble oasis]

The seat of his power is old, he inherited it

[lapis creek]

green prince is also extremely old

[marble oasis]

Like some sort of young heart?

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah she's just a heart

[low oracle]

Nyleth seems as much a higher being as Unn, seeing as they both created their own biome. And Nyleth seemingly also made Seth her follower and guardian, similar to Quirrel with the mask.

[lapis creek]

actually i guess depending on how we want to say verdania was destroyed he might not be that old

[low oracle]

That would make ANY vessel an old heart, since the Pale King is incredibly powerful.

[sinful nimbus]

Hollow Knight: Silksong: Return to Hallownest DLC shows us a collapsed City of Tears cavern which watered Isma's Grove and now the entire Capital + Waterways territory is her forest

[low oracle]

He's not too much pre-citadel.

[lapis creek]

that would make ANY rectangle a square

[low oracle]

What?

[tawdry flare]

Shrine Guardian Ogrim CONFIRMED

[low oracle]

Dude would never have as much aura as Seth or Green Prince.

[tawdry flare]

That’s true, he’s already beyond both

[sinful nimbus]

Ogrim has way more aura than both

[low oracle]

Hell nah.

[muted lantern]

His aura just happens to be a heroic odor.

[sinful nimbus]

ITS CALLED AURA BRUH 🗣️

Ogrim had build up with the laughs you see and he fit into the area and kingdom's story as a whole

Seth is just... there

And he doesn't do that

[low oracle]

Since Ogrim always has the dung charm equipped, he canonically is hated by most NPC's.

[lapis creek]

unless i'm misunderstanding you've basically seen the concept of inheritance in this particular case and overgeneralized it to all cases where power is inherited

[muted lantern]

I wonder if isma liked ogrims smell because she's a plant.

[sinful nimbus]

He could never have the aura of the Godking's most Loyal Knight

White Defender also has an in-universe reason for the sad section of the music

[low oracle]

Well, it's not good reasoning if it is specific to a singular instance.

[lapis creek]

what

[unborn nova]

Do you mean thr white palace leitmotif?

[sinful nimbus]

Yea

[marble oasis]

Yes, if these two things weren’t completely different they would be the exact same

[sinful nimbus]

Its not overtly sad tbf but it does give you that "Man..." feeling

[low oracle]

If you can't apply that definition of an old heart to anything else, it isn't exactly a definition.

[lapis creek]

what definition of old heart

zor's message didn't propose a definition

it was just an explanation of what happened in the specific case of green prince

[marble oasis]

I take back the inheritance part because Khann and Nyleth didn’t inherit their power or positions

Green Prince and Karmelita inherited their positions but maybe not their power

[marble oasis]

Well Khann I don’t think so, Nyleth definitely not

[gentle aspen]

Well

no

he just smells bad

he made the charm do that

[low oracle]

The karak probably come froma long line of rulers. That would also make sense withe the Garro and Xero speculation, which I believe to be canon.

[gentle aspen]

The charm didn’t make him do that

[low oracle]

What's the difference?

[marble oasis]

yeah last successors is what made me think that

but nyleth didn’t have any forebears

[lapis creek]

"Our lord born last to rule" in the lore tablet in sands of karak

[gentle aspen]

I mean

they might’ve

[lapis creek]

i think this suggests that other people ruled before him

[gentle aspen]

just not relevant

[marble oasis]

interesting

[lapis creek]

although you could twist it into only saying that nobody would rule afterwards

[marble oasis]

they treat him like he was what made karak army into what it is today

or in its prime at least

[lapis creek]

perhaps because coral gorge would collapse

[lapis creek]

maybe he did, it's not really mutually exclusive

[gentle aspen]

well he was a tyrant

So he probably did

[lapis creek]

anyway inheritance is not a necessary condition for being one of these beings nor is it sufficient because of nyleth as you pointed out

[marble oasis]

it’s just a bit weird to inherit the power of an old heart if the entire region was weakshit babies

[limpid summit]

I wouldn’t call the Petras between Youth and Warrior. They look more like evolved Youths.
Their wings are larger and more pronounced rather than slimming, their stinger is longer and thinner rather than evening out, their head is dividing into a different shape rather than sprouting antennae.
In a similar way the Traitors are evolved Warriors, likely closer to Lord biology as you say in some ways, if fatter because of the Infection. Less distinct stinger, larger claws, Lord horns, etc. Traitor Lord is the fattest and most bloated, probably because not only did he already have Lord biology but he was the most far along in his infection.

[lapis creek]

maybe all of the predecessors also had the power to take part of pharloom, they just didnt have the right fascist leader until khann showed up

[limpid summit]

There’s no indication that Infection advances bodies in a genetic sense

It just makes you fat

They took in the infection to become stronger and they are

They’re fatter so they’re heftier and can swing their claws around better

But their physiology ain’t that

[lapis creek]

him raising the army doesnt necessarily have to do with his personal power

[marble oasis]

Potential karakas bro 😭

[lapis creek]

karmelita would lay him out anyway

[limpid summit]

Khann so lucky they didn’t have viggle ai in ancient Pharloom

[marble oasis]

Do that dance I like coral boy

[lone magnet]

ive got a question abt Nyleth. I understand that to enter the minds/past of the great rulers, Hornet had to go to their remains and use the needolin, but where is Nyleth's remains? Why does a statue suffice for her to use the needolin and get her heart, when there's a statue of Karmaleta in Hunters march and that doesn't work?

[marble oasis]

in the shrine

[lone magnet]

and why would Seth be guarding just a statue? or simply Nyleth's remains at the point silksong happens? what is there to guard?

[limpid summit]

She’s probably asleep in the shrine

Spread out among the plants like Isma was

[marble oasis]

you see the flowers coming out of it die after we take her heart

[lone magnet]

so she was like, "spread out" among shellwood due to age? and her heart was always within the shrine?

that would make sense

thanks

[limpid summit]

What if Unn isn’t a higher being but just an old heart

FACT: Unn allowed Greenpath to wilt so people would feel bad for her

[marble oasis]

Day 29376 of pretending to be a higher being
they’re holding a meeting after Wyrm vanished I’m so fucking scared I’m gonna have to pretend to be sleeping

[craggy smelt]

I don't even know how to think about higher beings anymore honestly

[limpid summit]

Really

[craggy smelt]

but she was included in the Pantheon of Hallownest in a way similar to two pale beings

[limpid summit]

Wdym

Let’s see

GMS PK WL Rad confirmed

LoS pretty much confirmed

Unn and NMH all but confirmed

[marble oasis]

Unn’s got essence chicanery

She’s not just a normal bug

[limpid summit]

Abyss Creature we have nothing Greyroot probably not

Mister Mushroom YES

[craggy smelt]

the highest being

[limpid summit]

Weaver Queen Hornet

Fine

[tawdry flare]

Mister Mushroom is beyond such labels

[marble oasis]

Unn giving TK a charm to stop it stumbling across her stash of green paint

[tawdry flare]

Blackwyrm absolutely

[unborn nova]

Is a greyroot a non pale/higher version of White Lady's species?

[marble oasis]

Probably not

[craggy smelt]

who knows

that's the thing, there's the pale beings, the 'higher caste'
not all of whom are necessarily higher beings

[unborn nova]

A scroll in silksong refers to Hallownest as "Kingdom of the White Wyrm" rather than just "Kingdom of the Wyrm", I think non-pale Wyrms do exist.

[marble oasis]

Yeah

[craggy smelt]

mhmm

[marble oasis]

But greyroot and WL seem to operate quite differently

[craggy smelt]

we barely see WL do anything

[limpid summit]

Non pale Wyrms exist for sure

[marble oasis]

also blackwyrm but that’s tenuous

[limpid summit]

White Lady is called “Root” a handful of times

We don’t know if Roots are a species

[craggy smelt]

WL does mention she wants lots of progeny
I wonder what for
(looks at parasite)

[limpid summit]

But all Wyrms are implied to be HBs

[unborn nova]

Other than White Defender's journal, we really don't know ajnything.

[limpid summit]

I like to think Roots are a species with variations that account for WL and GR but it doesn’t seem like they’re a HB species

[tawdry flare]

well when sea of sorrows reveals the lifeblood wyrm it’ll all make sense

[craggy smelt]

Blackwyrm might just be some guy
(and yet... Greyroot)
White Lady
Pale Wyrm
Greyroot
Blackwyrm

(where the Blackroot and Greywyrm at...)

[marble oasis]

Also kingdom of the wyrm is so nonspecific because wyrms looove making kingdoms

[unborn nova]

Well, that's my point.

There are Wyrms that are not pale.

[limpid summit]

Still think Blackwyrm could be like

Ancient basin

It’s got sort of a dark vibe going on

[craggy smelt]

Blackwyrm could be anything
he might just be some guy with delusions of grandeur, some bug warlord gassing himself and his followers up and the Great Knights took them out

or he's Wyrm King of the Blackbarrens, who knows

or Wyrm Queen

[tawdry flare]

I was about to say thattttt

[craggy smelt]

Sea of Sorrows might give us some more insight into the Lifeblood creature, by virtue of more lifeblood lore

I think the only time we'll get more pale being lore is in City of Steel - some insights from the steel society monitoring all these kingdoms

[halcyon merlin]

if lifeblood is still kinda ambiguous after sea of sorrow then TC sucks!!

[limpid summit]

If we don’t get lifeblood creature something in SoS I’d be really surprised

Lifeblood didn’t need to be blue infection but as long as it is they could do something fun with it

[tawdry flare]

I don’t even think a City of Steel DLC is happening so I would be unsurprised

[craggy smelt]

Zylotol's crazy mad scientist master rips open a portal to the Blue Dream
or some shit

[tawdry flare]

Lifeblood being a more slow, insidious/intentional worldwide infection would be cool

[unborn nova]

I wish for more moth/essence lore in a silksong DLC.

[marble oasis]

Woke nonsense

[tawdry flare]

Zero chance

Hallownest’s moths are all long dead by Silksong

[unborn nova]

Maybe there are moths in pharloom?

[craggy smelt]

it's woke 2.0, devour them

[limpid summit]

Steel DLC is happening

Will it have Hornet actually go to the City

[craggy smelt]

SteeLC

[limpid summit]

Probably not

[unborn nova]

But then again, Radiance created them and Radiance was never in Pharloom.

[craggy smelt]

moths no, dream/essence stuff hopefully
I just want one little dreamcatcher

[tawdry flare]

flashback to launch day when i thought the widow cutscene was about the radiance

[marble oasis]

Hornet doesn’t really have a way to access it

no DN

[craggy smelt]

or, she is, but she perceives it as silken strands instead of dream wheelies
(something to clarify that would be nice...)

[limpid summit]

When WE all thought THK was going to appear instead of TK

[limpid summit]

Miraculous third warrior moth

[craggy smelt]

I thought maybe some Shades would appear in the Abyss
never thought it would be our little Knight

[marble oasis]

Who is WE

[limpid summit]

Is there any other backer content to handle besides Sharpe and the lions

[craggy smelt]

people keep talking about dungeons

I have no idea what that would entail really

some areas I already think of as dungeons

[marble oasis]

They just keep taking up weapons bro no one can stop them

[limpid summit]

Like uhh

The mist?

[marble oasis]

karak

[limpid summit]

I don’t think we have that many dungeons

Oh

Yeah I guess verdania and karak

[marble oasis]

the mist too

[limpid summit]

Is GP backer

[marble oasis]

don’t think so

makes sense though with him being the fourth extra heart

[craggy smelt]

The Mist/Mist Organ yeah, Coral Tower
Whiteward, the Slab

[marble oasis]

the slab for sure

[unborn nova]

Karmelita and Khann are backers too iirc.

[marble oasis]

idk about the ward

[marble oasis]

are they?

i think i remember karm being one

[tawdry flare]

Just seems to be a different regional variant/facet of the Dream Realm, not much else to it

[limpid summit]

Khann is backer

[craggy smelt]

to me, in a metroidvania a 'dungeon' is like a sub-area that's removed from a main area, like a monster lair or similar
Voltwyrm Nest, Brightvein... these would be good examples, if they weren't so small and in one case bossless
in the first game, it was stuff like Ancestral Mound, Soul Sanctum, Mantis Village, etc.

[limpid summit]

I think he was an area + boss tier like the village

[marble oasis]

A dungeon to me is pretty much one way in, one way out with some main objective

verdania is the perfect encapsulation of that

[craggy smelt]

without knowing what TC means by dungeon it's hard to say what counts

Wisp Thicket I think is a good one

[unborn nova]

How about Weavenest Atla?

[marble oasis]

wisp thicket is a bit small

[marble oasis]

Doesn’t really have an objective

You just go there several times to collect stuff

[marble oasis]

That’s another thing, you complete them in one go

Which tbh I have that problem with most of silksong’s areas compared to hk, there’s such little revisiting

[craggy smelt]

if Chapels all had bosses I'd think of them that way, in the same vein as Ancestral Mound
I think only the Beast Chapel has a boss though

(Chapel Saints could be fun Memory boss fights...)

[marble oasis]

Wanderer and Reaper have gauntlets which TC seems to consider just as good

[unborn nova]

Is the corpse for wanderer a pilgrim?

I mean the gauntlets are all pilgrim enemies.

[craggy smelt]

Reaper Saint with scissor scythe

[marble oasis]

looks like it

[craggy smelt]

Wander Saint with harp blade

we need an encounter where you have to use the needolin

music battle

[marble oasis]

was there a fight where you had to use dn in hk?

[craggy smelt]

not as like a fight mechanic, no

you can use it in THK fight to end it early, I guess

technically

[marble oasis]

well i count that as using needolin in snared silk

[unborn nova]

Why would a pilgrim have its own chapel?.

[craggy smelt]

actually, I think there's a line where Hornet clarifies herself as a traveler rather than a pilgrim, so there's a distinction there

wanderer sounds like they might've been something like that

maybe the pilgrims there was just fans