sk-lore

[summer vigil]

Rough course and irritating

And it gets everywhere

[stray fog]

What about the "sea" part

[sly wolf]

What about it

[stray fog]

The wasteland is sandy, but what about the "sea" in "sandsea"?

[blissful harbor]

it’s a sea of sand

[craggy smelt]

if it's a 'sandsea' then 'sea' is probably just figurative - referring to the desert as a rolling ocean of sand instead of water

[sly wolf]

Sea doesn't imply water if that's what you mean

Like something that is in plenty

Anyway SHAWWW

[twin dragon]

holy propaganda lmfao

[dire lynx]

to be fair, alot of the karaka are still alive

[frozen tinsel]

Considering they can bite through Hornet just fine and we've seen what's needed to crack her shell, I would assume so

[cosmic sandal]

whats up with the abyss vines

[muted lantern]

How do we know they are still alive, i've heard people say it but im not sure why.

[dire lynx]

when karaka die they turn to crust

[muted lantern]

True, are they made of crust?

[cosmic sandal]

they seem to come together for specific purposes like stopping the lava above the diving bell

are they kinda alive like the rocks

[dire lynx]

it seems they have a symbiotic relationship with the coral

best and most extreme example is the elder guys with the orange bubbles

[muted lantern]

I still think it would be cool if they were literally formed out of crust by khann, with their resembalance to the terracotta soldiers. It would be neat if he literally crafted his own army.

[dire lynx]

"This bug's fusion with the crust-growth... It seems intentional, though I imagine the union is far from comfortable."

[muted lantern]

I keep forgetting the couriers have wings. the fact that they can fly with those massive backpacks is crazy.

[muted lantern]

what the hell is this shit in the abyss around the arcane egg?

[twin dragon]

spikes

[muted lantern]

What i mean is they are completely unique from the spikes surrounding the rest of the abyss, and only surround the arcane egg.

[twin dragon]

They could be ancient bones idk

They look like thorns

[muted lantern]

They do look like thorns, which is strange, the specifically surround ancient civilization structures housing an arcane egg, is there anything similar in hk's abyss?

[whole holly]

i want game that properly addresses ancient civilization, giving hints as some mystery to solve is bad, i want to know about they relation to Void

[muted lantern]

Nothing wrong with a mystery

[whole holly]

not in my opinion, there should be something about them since they are all over HK world, we should be able to draw conclusions about them, because it is so vague it seems like they were ritually utilizing phenomenon that happened to Vessels

[stray fog]

Maybe it was a protective measure

The spikes look metallic

Artificial...

[whole holly]

that could be true, maybe it was guarded structure? but i doubt this has significant lore implications

[stray fog]

To guard the knowledge inside the egg

[stray fog]

The knowledge in question is about shades and being hollow

Why did they want to guard this knowledge?

[whole holly]

i don't know, seemly they had control of void since void inside void idols are perfectly still, https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Void_Idol

[stray fog]

This fits into a headcanon I have-

The ancient civilization turned themselves into shades to "cleanse" themselves
(source: abyss lore tablets, them worshipping void)

But then, something went wrong, which led to them wishing that their voices would "cry out again"
(source: abyss shreik room)

This would explain why they made those spikes
So that noone would make the same mistake as them, whatever that mistake was
This is similar to how a popular idea for storing nuclear waste is to surround it with hostile architecture, including spikes, so that even in the future, no curious humans come looking for it

[whole holly]

it is vague so, maybe, i doubt Shades of AC are still, i think they live in Void see and might be what tendrils are or became void tendrils because it had to be created

[stray fog]

What if the steel clan is a direct descendant of the ancient civ, and they restrict and control void usage so that noone repeats their mistake

I know that this is speculative af

[stray fog]

I wasn't replying to the void idol message when I said this

[heavy gyro]

I find it interesting that there are no shade gates or soul totems in pharloom despite the Ancient Civilization's presence

[whole holly]

I know I was replying to you

[whole holly]

Maybe they were concentrated in Hallownest and they were said to try to establish Hallownest and might have been opposed by Radiance

[stray fog]

The journal entry for tendrils in sk says that it is the form that the void chooses

But in hk, it is called "void *given* form"

So did it choose a form or was it given a form?

[heavy gyro]

It's also called void given form in silksong

[whole holly]

yeah, it is form void chooses if given the opportunity but there are others forms void can take (Shade, Siblings) that are also Void given Form, maybe Void Tendrils is default, they react to our Needolin

[dire lynx]

Fragments of void taking the shape of sharp, thrashing tendrils.

The bugs of Hallownest sometimes wondered whether there were other, older, stranger Kingdoms deep below them. What strange fancies they had. That's probably why they were always so distracted and easy to kill.

the tendrils are never called void given form

thats the name for the knights shade form in godhome

[dire lynx]

what you are thinking of is the description of the impression that gives you the entry, which reads as "An imprint of abyss given form"

[heavy gyro]

they are called that in silksong

[stray fog]

That's still referring to the void tendrils, isn't it?

[stray fog]

"given form" and "form taken if given the opportunity to do so" are different

[heavy gyro]

I think this is just the figurative sense, as in the liquid was void was given form (not by someone) as tendrils

[stray fog]

👍

[dire lynx]

i meant in the first game, which is what they were referring to

[whole holly]

I mean maybe not too much at least in narrative storytelling

[mighty parcel]

Do we have any idea who hornet’s previous partners were?

[dire lynx]

no

we only know they were mortal

[pliant crag]

Maybe these could be ancient civilization and the soul just doesn't show up for hornet since she doesn't absorb soul, but these just look like fossilized bugs to me. They don't resemble ancient civilization stuff. Idk what to think

[pearl thunder]

those all look like dead bugs, yeah

[stray fog]

This along with there being only 1 arcane egg in the pharloom abyss makes me wonder if hallownest was their main base or something

[pearl thunder]

i mean we only see a portion of the abyss in both, so it's hard to say

Z-axis being generally untraversable and all

[pliant crag]

Maybe they had only just reached pharloom before their downfall

[stray fog]

Not the z axis again 😭

[pearl thunder]

you can never escape the Z-Axis

[pliant crag]

The z-axis is unending, unyielding

[pearl thunder]

the z-axis is the quiet scourge of lore regulars

Though honestly it could just be TC didn't see the need to fill the SS abyss with arcane eggs

[pliant crag]

Especially since you can't sell them, and having like four of them with different lore would reveal too much by their standarts

[pearl thunder]

Yeah, TC love being vague as hell with void

[whole holly]

what even is that?

[pearl thunder]

Interesting that they changed their verbiage in relation to void a bit with the silksong arcane egg

[pearl thunder]

the game is generally 2D, though the Z axis does exist as the world itself is 3d

[whole holly]

yeah, but i thought you were talking about it as some kind of force, isn't it confirmed that Game is 3d but player can only interact with 2 axis?

[pearl thunder]

The Arcane Egg in SS mentioning "No self," self never being used in HK in relation to void

I guess that's so it fits further in line with TC's theme of "self" and intrapersonal identity in SS

[whole holly]

i mean No mind, no self is similar enough

[pearl thunder]

The character can on occasion traverse the Z axis, just not often, any doors that require interaction for instance are an example of the Z axis

[pearl thunder]

Yeah, i'm just noting the slight change in verbiage

Interesting to note, but largely unimportant as far as i can tell

[whole holly]

well yeah, but door even though is 3d but player still interacts with it in 2d way

[pearl thunder]

it also seems to hint at the existence of a shade prior to PK's creation of the vessels, which is extremely odd

Since the arcane eggs were made by the ancient civilization, and PK came along well after the ancient civilization

[whole holly]

is it really? i mean it is natural effect of Void, but it seems some bugs can't withstand it live Lover Bug and Lighthouse Bug

[pliant crag]

One of the ancient babies just slipped and fell on the void lol

[stray fog]

The shade cloak guy calls the knight the "lord of shades", so they knew what shades were

[pearl thunder]

Shade is only ever used in reference to the Vessel's Shades outside of this arcane egg afaik

[pliant crag]

Given they kept experimenting with void it was somewhat inevitable they discovered shades

[pearl thunder]

So shade would just be another term for void in general is your interpretation?

[heavy gyro]

It's likely that PK got the idea of shades from the AC

[whole holly]

yeah but phenomenon was always attributed to void as whole and it's effects, it was always plausible for bugs other than Vessels

[stray fog]

I'd like to believe that they too used the word "shade" to talk about void ghost people

[pearl thunder]

All of the examples of void contained within a bug/armor have glowing shells (other than the collector), so it was my assumption that a pale shell was important to containing void for prolonged periods of time

Pale shell from pale birth, or being from the glow of soul in the kingsmould's case

Granted i've little knowledge of how void interacts with pharloom's bugs since i'm quite fresh into act 3

[stray fog]

Ancient masks in sk are said to be made of pale ore

Ykwim?

[pearl thunder]

Mhm

[whole holly]

Pale Shell is extremely generic term outside referring to shell of Pale Being's biological children, Shell from Pale ore and Pale metals seem to be separate even though you are conflating the two

[pearl thunder]

I mean Pale strictly refers to the general glow, it's a rather unspecific term

my use of "Pale birth" is derivative of its use in HK in reference to the vessels

[whole holly]

while yes Pale-ness may be 'key' of containing the Void, Pale is still used as description of appearance or pale nature, your usage conflated the two

[pearl thunder]

Pale is a description of appearance, and power due to that appearance

[whole holly]

not due to that appearance, no

[pearl thunder]

The power coming from soul/silk, which is also what creates the glow

[whole holly]

it is factor of Pale Light and Higher Being nature overlapping

[pearl thunder]

the power isn't derivative of the glow itself, but what also causes the glow

[whole holly]

Pale King has Pale Essence, which can be seen in White Palace and Godhome rooms

[twin dragon]

The color of the essence is presumably because of the pale light PK irradiates

[whole holly]

they may just be overlapping, because Everbloom doesn't have godly resonance

[twin dragon]

Theres no such thing as "pale essence"

[whole holly]

not because of Soul, because of essence

[heavy gyro]

What about the gargant glooms that hold void within them

[twin dragon]

The glow is caused by Pk's immense soul reserves

[whole holly]

i described it as such because of connection of Light and essence and Pale Light from king to White Essence he has

[pearl thunder]

Pale essentially just means white glow

[twin dragon]

Grab a flashlight and point it at some essence

[whole holly]

is it Essence or Soul? because only one is confirmed to be fragment of light

[twin dragon]

you get the same result

[twin dragon]

Soul is known to produce glow

[pearl thunder]

Both essence and soul produce a glow

[whole holly]

Glow and Light are different

[twin dragon]

Yes, but in these circumstances what radiates such glow is soul

[heavy gyro]

GMS is called pale light and she (as far as we know) has no connection to essence

[whole holly]

one glows, one is fragment of light, Pale King wouldn't have Pale Light that blinds people because of Soul

[whole holly]

i think she is referred to as Pale Glow, or Pale Mother but can i have source?

[twin dragon]

He does for that exact reason

[pearl thunder]

I mean regardless of source, light works to restrain void

[stray fog]

Also pale ore, oil, etc

[whole holly]

Soul's glow doesn't restrain Void

[stray fog]

Although we don't know if pale ore is connected to soul either

[pearl thunder]

Coral Tower Needolin dialogue: "All to bow... All lost to fear... Now none to resist... But us... Alone... against the pale light..."

[pearl thunder]

if lumaflies are sufficient to restrain the void in the abyss, i see no reason why soul wouldn't

[whole holly]

guys there is no reason why Pale Light can't be Soul and Essence is overlapping, but Point is Soul's and Light's nature are very known and Essence has bigger connection to Light, Soul has vague connection, Pale King with most essence connection of pale beings is also be deduced to be brightest, as lighthouse similar to his can restrain void

[twin dragon]

Essence is a dream realm thing doe

[whole holly]

also Fragment of Light though

[twin dragon]

And Pk doesn't have much connection with it aside from that one time where he decided to place his entire palace into it

[twin dragon]

Most likely metaphorical

[pearl thunder]

Yeah, anything that glows white can be Pale

[twin dragon]

Like, even gms glows a shit ton

the entire citadel glow is coming from her

[whole holly]

not really it is mentioned in same context as dreams so you can't pick and choose which one is literal

[pearl thunder]

Though I must admit, that sacred blade has dulled over time. Together perhaps, we can restore its power. You only have to bring me Essence.
Essence... the precious fragments of light that dreams are made of. Collect it wherever you find it, and bring it to me. Once we have enough, we can work wonders together.
Seer, General, First encounter, excerpt of the full quote

[twin dragon]

They're light yeah

im not deying that

but everything points towards soul

[pearl thunder]

I don't see why a "pale glow" would have to be exclusive to soul

it's used in a pretty broad context generally

[twin dragon]

We're talking about pale king here

[whole holly]

i mean Pale King has connection to Essence as well as Soul, his bright light could have been some combination of the two

[twin dragon]

He doesn't have much connection with essence

[stray fog]

Isnt the radiance's light made of essence or something
(I might be misremembering)

[twin dragon]

Yeah

[pearl thunder]

A light similar to essence

So much Essence... So bright.... You truly are the Wielder my tribe so long has dreamed of.

The folk of my tribe were born from a light. Light similar to Essence, similar to that powerful blade, though much brighter still.
They were content to bask in that light and honoured it... for a time.
Seer, Returning with 2400 essence, excerpt of full quote

[stray fog]

How do you get dialogues so fast without the bot

[twin dragon]

seer wiki page open

[pearl thunder]

i have loads of experience pulling quotes, so i rememeber who said it and grab it off the wiki

[whole holly]

White Palace and Godhome having lot of Essence particles is most likely suggestion that Pale King has connection to Essence, more than White Lady who has similar connection to Soul as Pale King and isn't as frequently defined as Pale Light as Pale King is

[pearl thunder]

i also use the hollow knight full script a fair bit to search for key terms

i have like 10k messages in #hk-lore

[twin dragon]

????

No lmao?

[pearl thunder]

Sometimes if you remember who a quote is in reference to, you can find it listed in the references on that page, instead of having to find the speaker themself

[twin dragon]

Both white palace AND godhome are located in the dream realm

there's bound to be essence unrelated to PK

[stray fog]

True

[whole holly]

sure, but i think that Light is still Essence, one that is unique to her, somewhat like Scarlet Flame is still variation of Essence, despite being separate realm

[pearl thunder]

Light is not essence, Essence is light

A small distinction but an incredibly important one

[whole holly]

that's misunderstanding of my point

[pearl thunder]

Yeah i very much ignored what you replied to, my bad

I don't see why Seer would make such a point of making the distinction of radiance and essence if radiance is made of essence

[gentle aspen]

it’s only a separate realm because it was cut off from the main one

it’s still made of the same stuff

[pearl thunder]

Seer even specifically states that Radiance is made of a light like essence, a light similar to the dream nail, but brighter still

[gentle aspen]

it’s just brighter essence

[pearl thunder]

Light similar to Essence, similar to that powerful blade, though much brighter still.

[whole holly]

White Palace Essence is consistent color with Essence relating to Pale King, and Godhome exclusively refers to Pale King's Godhome room since that is content, and has Essence associated with him

[pearl thunder]

<@&283547423706447872>

[stray fog]

Wow elon musk is still giving away free money!!!
(this is a joke, don't actually download that app)

[whole holly]

yeah, that is what i am saying Scarlet Flame is still Essence, and Radiance's Light is most likely her unique essence, that is similar to generic essence

[balmy reef]

thx

[gentle aspen]

You’re welcome

[pearl thunder]

this conversation has strayed so far from the original topic

[balmy reef]

I miss you

[gentle aspen]

because I no lifed and was very active yes

[stray fog]

The ancient civilization being less prominent in pharloom

That was the topic, right?

[gentle aspen]

You get to survive

[pearl thunder]

It then became what allows for long term containment of void

[twin dragon]

The essence's color is modified because of his pale glow

[stray fog]

Wdym?

[gentle aspen]

Minor mistake

[stray fog]

🔥

[unborn nova]

I saw floating platforms in the abyss' background, so I guess this means they are canon and not just a game mechanic?

[whole holly]

source? because White lady is pale being and her essence is pink

i want HK3 and Sea of Sorrows DLC to be Essence-related, because Void is getting overused, Silk is just thin string of Soul cosplaying as another Fundamental force

[twin dragon]

essence is hella boring icl

It played its part in hollow knight

gimme some song to silk

[twin dragon]

Could be either due to her own glow or to differentiate her from the pk idfk

that's not very strong evidence to say that pk's glow is related to essence

[whole holly]

1. her glow is also pale due to being pale being 2. not a lore reason

[unborn nova]

Yep, silk is just a form of soul I assume.

[whole holly]

there is, his Glow is almost consistent with his Essence

[whole holly]

it is yeah

[twin dragon]

He's not related to essence

the glow is consistent with pale king's soul reserves

Silksong even sort of confirms this with gms's glow

[whole holly]

he lives in Dream Realm, transported White Palace there

[unborn nova]

essence as in the particles that looks like dreamcatchers?

[twin dragon]

He is not part of the dream realm doe

[whole holly]

GMS is mostly glow, his light is blinding

[twin dragon]

neither he originates from there

[whole holly]

he still has connection

[twin dragon]

Gms is really bright

[whole holly]

not a requirement

[twin dragon]

she lights up the entire citadel

[whole holly]

not blinding though

[twin dragon]

He doesn't, only because he acted upon something related to the dream realm doesn't mean he's related to it in some way

[whole holly]

that can happen with glow/light, as opposed to Pale King's Pale Light which Essence is fragment of, we see that Essence is White and makes up Pale King

[twin dragon]

Is TK related to the dream realm because it has the dream nail?

[twin dragon]

It doesn't make up pale king

[whole holly]

he is though, in Godhome room he has Essence that is related to him

[twin dragon]

what the fuck are you saying

[whole holly]

false equivalence

[twin dragon]

guess where the godhome is located

[whole holly]

that his Pale Light is connected to Essence

[twin dragon]

just take a guess

a tiny lil guess

[whole holly]

and white essence is still HIS essence

[twin dragon]

Gms's "glow" is literally described as pale light aswell

[whole holly]

doesn't change anything, we see that his

[twin dragon]

which is soul-based

[whole holly]

not exclusively

[twin dragon]

Its not his fym

[twin dragon]

Yes, but in this case, both for pk AND gms

it is soul based

[whole holly]

not as bright as Pale King and Radiance

[twin dragon]

Because gms is weaker in comparison

as far as we know

since her soul has been loomed through centuries

Anyways this is hella pointless to argue

(Mostly because i gotta go)

[whole holly]

then White Lady being Pale Being should have same amount of Essence particles but she has less because her inferior connection to Dream Realm, Pale King's Beacon is most likely Essence based, because it is contrasted to Infection which is also Dream based

[whole holly]

it is but you perpetuate it, so bye

[pliant crag]

PK isn't related to essence tho...

[twin dragon]

Because you won't listen to the overwhelming amount of evidence there is to indicate that his light is soul based

[whole holly]

White Palace and Beacon connect him to Essence

[twin dragon]

The essence particles in godhome aren't related to any of them, that's godseeker's dream

[pliant crag]

The beacon is a wyrm ability and wyrms aren't dream gods, and the palace was just transported there, we see the physical remains

[whole holly]

there is no confirmation of that, Soul glows and Essence makes up Light, so Essence connected Higher beings would be brighter, Pale king is brighter than Grand Mother Silk

[whole holly]

Godseeker attuned to their Resonance, Essence is their

[whole holly]

it is his specific ability, there is no proof that all of Wyrms have it, Unn is physical being and she has Dream Powers

[pliant crag]

Soul glows, we see as much with the silk flies, pale beings cannt manipulate soul, only beings like radiance and unn can

[limpid summit]

The beacon is implied to be an Essence based ability to some degree
It has parallels to infection - “Only one light shall shine against the dark” and Bardoon describes it as an attempt at order in the same breath as he described the Infection’s effect on the mind

[pliant crag]

"Wyrms pull bugs into their thrall"

• mr mushroom

[unborn nova]

Unn can?

[pliant crag]

Yes

[limpid summit]

It is likely a Wyrm ability yes

Or some sort of equivalent

But at least for PK it’s Essence based

Or bridges that soul essence barrier

[pliant crag]

How would it be essence based for him and not the others

[whole holly]

Pale Beings can manipulate Soul to some degree, did you mean Essence, because they can manipulate that as well

[limpid summit]

It might be essence based for the others

But say a Wyrm goes in and everyone it wants to rule is already intelligent

[whole holly]

that doesn't mention Beacon

[limpid summit]

Perhaps a beacon isn’t required

We just know they rule

[pliant crag]

I meant "can't" but my keyboard sucks

[pliant crag]

Then it can't rule, we see as much with the mantises

The others have to accept its rule

If they didn't gain sapience from his beacon

[whole holly]

okay, Pale Beings aren't monolith, Pale King, White Lady and Grand Mother Silk have different powers with vague similarities such as connection to Soul, that doesn't mean that Pale King can't have essence-manipulation ability just because other Pale Beings don't

[limpid summit]

Shrumals accepted a treaty with the Wyrm

The moths gravitated toward his rule as well

[pliant crag]

They chose to, the spiders didn't want anything to do with him

[limpid summit]

Wyrms naturally draw people in regardless

[whole holly]

yeah, Moths likely gravitated towards him because he was Pale Light, most likely connected Essence to entice moths

[pliant crag]

Pale beings manipulate soul, it's in the name. They can do a lot of stuff with it, but they can't manipulate essence, if they could, why not just make their own servants with essence instead of uplifting animals?

[pliant crag]

His light was brighter than the rad's, because it is a different light

[whole holly]

you repeated same argument i just debunked, but Pale King's Servants are made of Soul and Essence, GMS also made her Servant with Silk so that's not relevant, again Pale Beings aren't monolith, Pale King, White Lady and Grand Mother Silk have different powers with vague similarities such as connection to Soul, that doesn't mean that Pale King can't have essence-manipulation ability JUST because other Pale Beings don't

[limpid summit]

I mean PK removes his own memory and implants it into a physical palace that he moved into a drram

That’s a pretty good essence based feat

[whole holly]

and His beacon

[limpid summit]

That too

[pliant crag]

What evidence is there that he did it by himself? I'd wager the moths helped him in the ordeal, so enthralled with his light

[whole holly]

why does people think that Pale Beings can only manipulate Soul, when has White Lady manipulated Soul, she is vaguely connected to it with Kingsoul

[limpid summit]

This would have been long after Infection

[pliant crag]

Again, his beacon is a wyrm ability, not an essence thing

[limpid summit]

Why would he let the moths (whose fault the Infection was) root around in his mind and pluck out a memory representing his deep grief

[pliant crag]

It was right after the second wave showed up

[whole holly]

Elina says in her journal, that Pale King fled and took his kingdom with him

[limpid summit]

Moths would have been dead

[pliant crag]

The moths caused the infection because they REJECTED the radiance

[pliant crag]

Doesn't mean he fled without help

[whole holly]

just because it is Wyrm ability doesn't mean it can't be essence thing

[limpid summit]

I’d like to add this was written after Godmaster so it represents the ultimate takeaway

[pliant crag]

Eline isn't even from hallownest so her testimony isn't as accurate as others'

[limpid summit]

No blazing kin. Only one light shall shine against the dark. The Wyrm becomes beacon, minds expanded, to yield, to devote.

Away from simple minds, lost to light. Theirs is a different kind of unity. Rejection of the Wyrm's attempt at order.…Union it may offer, but also a mind bereft of thought...

[pliant crag]

So you're saying wyrms are dream beings?

[limpid summit]

The Wyrm’s attempt at order is not the kingdom

[whole holly]

no proof of that, What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

[limpid summit]

It’s the beacon

[pliant crag]

Check the seal on the kingsmould, it doesn't match his seals

[limpid summit]

The Beacon and Infection are both Essence based. While the infection offers unity at the cost of sapience, the beacon offers solitary autonomy

[limpid summit]

That is an Essence seal

[whole holly]

they don't have to be Unn is physical being that has connection with dreams, why can't pale king's power be connected to essence, is it contrasted with Infection which is also essence based

[limpid summit]

It’s just a dream seal

There’s no moth or PK iconography

Gameplay wise it’s probably so you know you need to dream nail it lol

[pliant crag]

Unn is a dream being who does not manipulate soul, she just came to the physical world

[limpid summit]

If it was just a PK seal it might confuse players

[whole holly]

Dream Seal was there to protect Dreams, it looks like Essence for reason, and Seal of Binding was help by the Weavers

[pliant crag]

If they can make stuff in the physical world they can descend upon it

[whole holly]

wrong, she is physical, she never existed in Dreams, lol, no proof of that

[limpid summit]

Pale King moved WP into a dream this is a precedent for some connection to Essence

And the beacon is essence based

It like just is

[whole holly]

wrong

[whole holly]

so what, Essence is universal thing, Mothkin made tools resembling it, doesn't mean pale king can't make essence seal

[pliant crag]

The moths helped him before they died, and the beacon is something wyrms do, not dream biengs like radiance

[limpid summit]

There is no evidence that the moths helped him

[pliant crag]

If he made the seal wouldn't the essence be white?

[limpid summit]

There is evidence that he had a part to play though

[pliant crag]

Like what?

[limpid summit]

Ellina

Why would she say some dumb stuff like that

If she didn’t have a good guess

She’s a learned chronicler

[whole holly]

in real world it doesn't have to be White, just within his Dream Realm

[pliant crag]

She says he fled, she didn't say he transported himself

[limpid summit]

Yes I would say oversight I don’t think real world Essence began matching unique dream colors till Grimm Troupe

GPZ has purplish Essence but normal particles on the statue

[pliant crag]

That makes no sense, his whole thing is being associated with the colour white, why would that not be the case

[whole holly]

he took White Palace with him, aka Dream Realm

[limpid summit]

Iirc she says he took it with him

But I don’t have the WJ

[whole holly]

Because Grey Prince Zote's Essence is purple but status still has regular Essence, that is just how things work

[whole holly]

thank you AppleEgg, i am tired of this...

[pliant crag]

Grey prince zote is just bretta's dream, if the pk has as much control over essence as you say he has, why wouldn't it be white?

After all, unn's essence is green

[limpid summit]

There are no green seals

[whole holly]

1. so 2. that doesn't mean he has to make it white it is just Gameplay and not relevant to lore

[limpid summit]

The only dream seal with a unique color is what

NMH’s seal

[pliant crag]

Because unn has no seals to her name

[limpid summit]

To be fair that is an entirely dream based higher being

[whole holly]

i think Hollow Knight has regular essence when we dream nail it

[limpid summit]

Does it?

Word

[pliant crag]

He has the radiance's essence colour

[limpid summit]

Anyway

[pliant crag]

When hornet stuns it

[whole holly]

and they are Separate realm, nightmare realm, likely to contrast it

[pliant crag]

Nightmare realm has flame, somewhat different

[limpid summit]

The normal Essence color of the seal doesn’t matter that much when…the Essence is a diff color in the dream anyway

[whole holly]

exactly, that's only reason it is different

[summer vigil]

Wasnt it stated in Grimm Troupe dlc that Nightmare and Dream realms are two entirely different things?

[pliant crag]

Well, yes

[limpid summit]

True

Okay wait NMH is a bit off track I didn’t mean to steal away

Back to PK

Papis what do you say to the Beacon being an Essence based ability

[pliant crag]

Hold on 1 sec

[whole holly]

it is normal essence color i see pink hues regular one has

[pliant crag]

Yeah, i guess the clouds are also white, but in godhome the clouds are also yellow so it would just seem that it varies depending on the owner of the dream

[limpid summit]

Okay TC probably just didn’t think about color too hard

[pliant crag]

Again with the purple essence in gpz dream

[limpid summit]

True

[pliant crag]

Oh then nvm

But I still stand by my point

[whole holly]

point is that it doesn't matter, seal of the Essence, maybe Essence's uniqueness can't be expressed with Seals, it only can be default color, and Scarlet Essence is really different since it is different Realm

[limpid summit]

I think while all we have on the Wyrms is rulership we can’t concretely say that their manner of such is firmly Essence based

But PK’s beacon specifically most probably is

[pliant crag]

Maybe, and yes scarlet essence is just flame, formed from suffering

[pliant crag]

Again though, why would he be different in regards that don't tie into his pale nature?

[whole holly]

because all Pale Beings are different, they don't have same nature, they have common traits but not necessarily same exact nature

[pliant crag]

They do have the same nature though

[limpid summit]

Well pale being most likely refers to Soul

[whole holly]

Everbloom can repel void but Grand Mother Silk can't

[pliant crag]

They all manipulate soul to some extent and they all wish to dominate

[limpid summit]

And when the gap between Soul and Essence is thin (Seer?) it makes sense that some Pale Beings would bleed into Essence based powers

[whole holly]

just because higher being has connection to Soul doesn't mean they can't manipulated Dreams

[whole holly]

doesn't mean they can't have difference or different powers as well

[pliant crag]

Is it thin though? I don't remember any info on that

[whole holly]

yea, Dream is place between body and soul

[pliant crag]

Sure they have different powers, but the biggest trait they all share is power over the physical world

[whole holly]

what Powers does White Lady have...?

[limpid summit]

Growth powers 🗣️🗣️🗣️

[pliant crag]

PK's corpse and kingdom is on the physical world, WL is a pale version of greyroot's kind, and GMS was trapped physically, something that dream beings like radiance cannot be, she needed a void vessel for that

[whole holly]

lol

[pliant crag]

Also MASSIVE birthing capabilty

Which is kinda weird ngl

[limpid summit]

I mean we haven’t seen a pale dream being

When your only realms are dream and physical and you have 3 physical beings I don’t think it’s fair to be like

There’s no dream connections

[pliant crag]

Because there don't seem to be any

[whole holly]

1. what.... 2. not really confirmed 3. she is physical beings, Unn is also physical being

[pliant crag]

1. What did you not get?
2. It's basically confirmed
3. what she are we talking about? Gms or rad?

[twin dragon]

Fym confirmed

[pliant crag]

Also Unn is a dream being, no doubt

[twin dragon]

Wl and grayroot are 2 different things

[pliant crag]

They are 2 different beings, yes, but of similar kin

[whole holly]

1. Pale King's corpse and palace are in Dream Realm 2. not really, we don't know what Twisted Child becomes 3. GMS and Unn are Physical being

[twin dragon]

They have nothing in common aside from the fact that theyre root related

[pliant crag]

I meant wyrm corpse

[whole holly]

she gives us charm in physical realm, she has never been in dream realm

[stray fog]

White lady and greyroot connections are still a theory

I wouldn't consider them confirmed

[summer vigil]

That reminds me that we really have no god damn arts or theories about what kind of abomination did we birth when Greyroot, GMS and Hornet fuse together

[pliant crag]

Anyway, rn i need to go, we will argue further later

[summer vigil]

Damn

[pliant crag]

But all i'll say is wl and gr have similar powers

[summer vigil]

We have infected Knight and Hornet but no abomination

[whole holly]

maybe really strong parasite, who knows

[summer vigil]

I mean. Yeah. Obviously a parasite

[stray fog]

I imagine its anatomy would be similar to greyroot

[summer vigil]

But what is it? A grotesque mishmash of Hornet/GMS/Greyroot?

Gore horror game in Hollow Knight when?

[stray fog]

It absorbed pilgrims before and greyroot doesn't look anything like a pilgrim, so I think its physical appearance would always be like that of greyroot, independent of who it absorbs

Other than that, its possible that it could get some non-physical similarities to hornet and gms

[summer vigil]

Pulgrims were not anything grand though. Just mere bugs.
We have GMS, which is a high being. And Hornet, which is a pale being that could actually resist dying to Greyroot in her

So it cant be literally "bigger Greyroot"

[whole holly]

maybe it will become pale, and have Crown of GMS?

[stray fog]

1/3 parasite + 1/3 hornet + 1/3 gms

= 0 + 1/3 * 1/2 +1/3 * 1 parts pale
= 1/2 parts pale

[stray fog]

The parasite would be half pale if it worked like this

But I doubt that it will be mathematical

[whole holly]

i don't think it works like this, if it saps energy/soul i think it might just be bloated or have power extended life and properties silk gives

[low oracle]

I have some corrections to make:
-White Lady has nothing to do with Greyroot, any speculation is based on the fact they are both plant-like
-The Radiance couldn't be trapped in the normal dimension, as she simply didn't go to there. Unn and the Pale King both use dreams/essence too, and they definitely exist in the normal dimension

There are (currently) three realms:

Real world (normal dimension)
Dream Realms (real spaces created by higher beings, death still counts)
Dreams (unreal spaces that are created by the mind)

While the White Palace and the Radiance Bossfight exist in dream realms, the dream warriors (e.g. Lost Kin) are simply memories/fiction. Basically whatever word can be used instead of dreams, to make it more understandable. Dying in the White Palace counts, while dying to Lost Kin doesn't.

Also, how is it "basically confirmed"? According to which source?

[undone sundial]

Pure vessel vs nkg who wins?

[edgy nebula]

probably pure vessel?

id say theyre pretty close in strength

[fresh badger]

Why do you say the "dream realms" and "dreams" are seperate things? Only one name is ever used, the Expanse of Dream. Also, how do you resolve there not being true death with the Nightmare's Heart in the NKG fight?

[undone sundial]

Because they have a very good training

[fresh badger]

Theres the Expanse of Dream and the waking world, and a veil seperating the two. The dream nail can break through said veil, which is why the world lights up and essence particles fill it when you dreamnail something like a corpse or a whispering root. It's probably also whats going on with the Lifeblood Core room, the veil being weakened there so elements of the expanse of dream seep in

[low oracle]

White palace is a real physical location, while the dream warrior locations aren't. They disappear after the fight, implying they never truly existed. Path of Pain also disappears, though I don't know if you can die while beating it (fully). If so, it's probably an oversight, since Path of Pain couldn't possibly be a real location.

[fresh badger]

Dream warrior locations? You mean the like dream rematches? Or the dream warriors like markoth?

[low oracle]

Lore wise we don't know, both are strong in their own right. Gameplay wise, Pure Vessel has to large of a hitbox. I'd say NKG, since he's a higher being, though the Knight managed to beat him. At the same time though, he probably wanted to "die", to continue the ritual.

[fresh badger]

White Palace also used to disappear once you removed the kingsoul imo dreams can be sealed away / forgotten when the thing holding them together is destroyed (the minds of the dream bosses, pk or the kingsoul)

[low oracle]

Dream rematches. Markoth, Xero and so on are mysterious with possible speculation completely separate.

[low oracle]

The White Palace isn't a dream though, which is my entire point. And you can actually die there, contrary to actual dreams.

Unless you go into the theory that the white palace we see isn't real. If so, I don't know what to say.

I also theorize that the royal bugs in the White Palace are in fact real. Due to being normal bugs however, the dream realm absorbed them and they became a part of it. Hence they give off essence particles and soul when "killed".
I don't know what other speculation there is, explaining why they exist. If someone disagreeing could give me insight, that'd be really appreciated.

[fresh badger]

The white palace is a dream. Its a real place moved into the expanse of dream.

Just like how TK can use dreamgate for its real body to enter the expanse of dream and pop out somewhere else

The white palace containing real retainers doesnt make sense, since we find all those retainers in ab that died while awaiting pk's return. They're probably just memories given how...static they are, repeating one action over and over

[inner stone]

Hello

[low oracle]

I'm of the opinion they turned to "memories" by becoming part of the dream realm. The corpses lying around are just more royal retainers. We have no evidence suggesting they somehow entered the (protected mind you) dream realm as memories. They probably weren't lucky enough to be in the White Palace when the Pale King retreated.

[drifting walrus]

I believe the nightmare realm is also separate from the dream

[low oracle]

Your logic doesn't make sense to me either. Why would something become less "real" when entering a dream/dream realm?
Besides that, Unn, the Pale King and Grimm all have different essence particles, so they clearly differentiate.

[fresh badger]

Essence particles are meaningless 🥀 fucking grey prince zote has different colored essence

[low oracle]

It is said to be split from the Realm, dreams occur in, though Unn and the Pale King also have their separate dream powers. All can be accessed by the same means (obv. not Unn) but they are split from each other.

[drifting walrus]

Yeah I do hope they touch more on nightmares in sk dlc or something

[low oracle]

Because he exists in a dream. Bretta literally dreams of him that way. Why we can only enter her mind is probably just because of gameplay, so Team Cherry could make a funny Zote boss.

[low oracle]

Sadly that won't be the case, if Silksong is anything to go by. The elegy of the deep works basically identically to the dreamnail, except for accessing memories (not the same?).

[drifting walrus]

Elegy seems like such a wasted concept

[low oracle]

I did forget to mention though, that Lifeblood also seems to come from a Higher Being, with the shared power of essence and dreams. Excepting Grand Mother Silk and White Lady seemingly.

[drifting walrus]

Like they tried making something different but identical instead of building on what was already there

[low oracle]

I like it and it holds up on its own, it just doesn't make sense compared to the first game. For example, what defines an old heart? Seemingly you just have to be strong and somewhat old. Can we only enter the memories of old hearts? Do old hearts allow you to technically produce infinite mass? Where does the energy come from, if silk alone isn't the cause?

[drifting walrus]

And the old hearts don’t feel like an accurate representation of the past but rather the idealised version each boss remembers

I think it would be better if we actually delved further into the psychology of the haunting

[low oracle]

Well, the are all in their prime. The hearts had to be powerful enough after all. But then again, why do they die if it was a memory?

[drifting walrus]

There are cut animations of Hornet literally tearing out their hearts after you defeat them which could explain why they die

[blissful harbor]

hornet uses the memory to enliven the heart, basically she fights them in their prime then steals the newly “primed” heart

[drifting walrus]

It could also be an allegory for taking the power that was keeping them alive

[low oracle]

Here is what we know so far:
-The haunting is a hivemind construct
-The haunting makes bugs commit to their tasks indefinitely
-GMS can command haunted bugs
-The haunting implies that all Weaver-related silk tracks back to GMS
-The haunting takes both living and dead bugs
-Makes most, not all bugs aggressive, especially if they aren't haunted
-Not everyone is aware of unaware of being haunted

[drifting walrus]

Then again if that was the case why would there be clovers growing over the green prince if that power is gone

[summer vigil]

doesnt it also makes passive bugs aggressive and want to throw hands? Hornet notes that even the tiny moss eaters in Moss Grotto, who used to just munch on moss, really wanna bite her despite their mandibles not made for combat

[low oracle]

That actually makes the most sense to me.

[summer vigil]

"In its natural state it would avoid potential predators, but Pharloom's Haunting now compels it to aggression. Fortunately, its jaws are ill-suited for combat."

• Hornet, about Aknid

that bug

[low oracle]

True, I added that in.

[oak palm]

Haunted bugs are specifically aggressive to non-haunted bugs moreso

[drifting walrus]

Honestly I’ve always felt that despite having a much greater scope sk isn’t as deep as hk

Like 7 years of development and the only thing that’s more refined is the gameplay and art style

[low oracle]

Green Prince is weird. Most people just say homophobia and leave it at that, though they definitely have some other implication or meaning. I think that Green Prince is basically already so heartbroken, he doesn't properly live anymore. Hornet ends his suffering, by allowing him to revisit his lover one last time. When ripping out the heart, Green Prince is already dead, with no physical wounds visible. So the taking of the heart clearly never truly mattered to his life.

[low oracle]

Yes, but not necessarily just. Skarrs still hunt the non-sapient bugs in the far fields, so I phrased it like that to avoid contradicting myself.

[drifting walrus]

That makes sense

So I guess his corpse is being used as some kind of fertiliser?

[low oracle]

Maybe the pain and sorrow is finally released, allowing the land to heal. Physically it doesn't make sense, so it could perhaps be interpreted like the plant growing from Sister Splinter's head (/mask).

[drifting walrus]

All I want is to see a playable rejuvenated coral gorge

[low oracle]

Grey Mourner acts similar too. We don't see her body, but she is mourning until she can rest, since the Knight gave her lover her gift.

[low oracle]

I like Act 3, though I think it shouldn't be permanent. After doing 100%, the land should heal and areas should be repopulated.

[drifting walrus]

If the haunting is like a hive mind maybe the aggression is an ingrained response to anything that hasn’t been assimilated

[silent moth]

Dayum yall are lore experts

[low oracle]

The conductors folly is referring to GMS as the beast, so maybe her nature is imprinted upon those infected. Conducting her rage to the bugs bound to her strings.

[summer vigil]

it does seem to have a source of anger, perhaps even from GMS herself for being betrayed by Weavers - which flows through the silk and makes the haunted bugs aggressive in turn

[drifting walrus]

Romino should have been the trobbio boss

Fight me

[summer vigil]

which is different from like, Radiance's infection where she wanted to be awed and admired, msot of the infected were relatively chill dudes unless they were covered in juice that makes you go boom

or from Lifeblood

or Void

[drifting walrus]

I legit thought that trobbio was romino when I watched the trailer and was so hyped and then immediately disappointed when I reached him

[drifting walrus]

If the haunting makes a bug endlessly repeat its task maybe hunting them is treated similarly

[low oracle]

Void doesn't infect, that was simply GMS's silk being voided. There are also quite a few differences between the three infections:

-The infection and Lifeblood cause extreme changes to the big themselves - Haunting doesn't

-Lifeblood is less aggressive and basically harmless, unless you yourself are the one spreading it (like a dumbass)

-The infection reverts bugs to their base instincts and past duties - The haunting makes bugs do their past duties, but they do not lose their sapience

-The infection, lifeblood and the haunting all give buffs to affected bigs. The infection makes them extremely powerful, while lifeblood and the haunting increase regenerative abilities.

-While the infection and the haunting both connect to hiveminds through which the Higher Beings can take control, lifeblood doesn't change much about the bugs, except for becomming obsessed with it (drug addicts)

-The Pale King was a good and smart ruler, who actually understood the dangers of these powers. They always grant strength, but never take nothing in return.

[low oracle]

Yes, but this is different from the infection. The infection hivemind treats all bugs as allies, while the silken hivemind only makes bugs hear GMS's thoughts.

[low oracle]

Also who tf is romino? Matthew Trobbiani is far cooler!

[summer vigil]

how many banned words are there jesus

Void does make you hear voices as seen in Lighthouse bug's dialogue

so basically schizophrenia

not entirely unique to Void about voices stuff

[low oracle]

I think that's just the mind of the bug turning in on itself. A human would go crazy too from being stuck alone, deep underground and unable to escape. At that point they start imagining things.

[low oracle]

There are "real" voices in some other cases though. Soul Master heard the voices of all the bugs he took the soul of, and whispering can be heard from Pale King's lore tablets.

[summer vigil]

im quite upset that Void is told to be some grand power that kills gods, but the only time it does anything is when another character does 99% of the job

like when you think about it, AbsRad dies only once Knight beats her up, Void doesnt act before that time

it tries, fails, then killsteals as Lord of Shades

[whole marsh]

Do we have any ideas as to what prompts a bug to actually fall into the haunting? Some of the NPC's seem to allude to them actively being able to avoid getting ensnared in the haunting. But I'm not sure if they actually know, or if they're talking out of their ass.

Examples: Benjin and Crull, & the Vaultkeeper

[summer vigil]

probably strong will and avoiding interractions with silk as one of the reasons

[low oracle]

The Haunting
Firstly, all pilgrims of the same species have silk in their veins. Hence unique pilgrims like Sherma, Pilgrim Preacher, Scared Pilgrim and so on are less likely to be haunted.
Bugs also get closer to the haunting through weakness, such as being tired. Song distances them from the haunting, though it can't revert the harm done. Skarrsinger Karmelita managed to stagnate the haunting across her entire tribe, yet she couldn't truly protect them form it.
Mottled Skarr, seemingly mutations, are also completely resistant to the haunting. They may have evolved as means to counter it, or they simply had the luck/unluck (discrimination affects them).

So how do you avoid the haunting as a regular bug? Firstly, you never doubt yourself and always make sure to be well rested. Secondly, you play song at all possible times. Thirdly, you attempt to travel in groups, so to boost each others moral. Fourthly, NEVER ingest yourself with silk. Fifthly, you could use the wisps from the wisp thicket, though cultist practices involving pilgrims sacrifices may get you killed. Lastly, be a Higher Being, related to one, or already under the control of one.

The Infection
The infection is much more dangerous, as a strong will actually boosts it. To weak or to strong, it both allows for the light flourish. Especially if you have a strong will and hope to achieve something. Even worse, there is basically nothing you yourself can do that presents active effects. Unless you are quickly brought prevented from dreaming (Sly or Bretta), you have no hope left.

Everything good and everything bad, it all allows the infection to consume you. The only thing that somewhat helps, is taking it in willingly. That at the very least allows you to regain fragments of your own desires and your will, even if it is turned against you more often than not (Xero).

[summer vigil]

Traitor Mantis tribe also seems to have its own will after accepting orange juice

though they got mutated

[drifting walrus]

Accepting the infection didn’t seem to do much good for that moss preacher

[summer vigil]

well it did for a while

then he went amimir

[ocean crown]

The more I look at it the lifeblood infection is very similar to radiance in the way it infects ppl

It also has similar bugd

Similar projectiles

[halcyon merlin]

i think that's just generic projectile idk

isn't the void thing also similar

until its on the ground and turns into that other thing

(i don't remember)

[ocean crown]

Also the branches

[wooden sierra]

Void is a type of infection too r8? XD

[halcyon merlin]

not really

[ocean crown]

Void is also infecting ppl

[wooden sierra]

Wasn't it infecting godseeker and lace?

[halcyon merlin]

hmm

right

im stupid

i forgot about garmond and lace

sorry!

[wooden sierra]

Garmond ;-;

[lone folio]

Oh true

Another one to the list

[ocean crown]

(Yes ik the branches are dying in the first but it looks SO similar

[low oracle]

No

[stray fog]

Yesss lifeblood and infection discussion 🔥🔥

I believe

[ocean crown]

And also half of hallownesg LOL remember lighthouse keeper and guy holding love key

[low oracle]

Not really. Godhome apparently also survived after the Knight showed the its true form.

[stray fog]

Should we make a list?

[lone folio]

At this point it needs to be real

[lone folio]

Yes

[ocean crown]

I think one of the more damming things

OH and both infections change the eye color

[stray fog]

• Butterflies and moths
• Similar vines and cysts
• Lifeseeds and lightseeds
• Hornet says that they are similar
• They are functionally similar infections (puppet corpses, take over minds)
• zylotol calls himself "we" instead of "I" after getting plasmified. So Lifeblood might be a other hivemind infection
• The lifeblood higher being has dream realm powers like the radiance
• zylotol (plasmified) says that lifeblood shimmers and sparkles. Similar to how infected bugs talk about radiance's light
• infected crossroads and plasmified wormways
• both infections cause changed eye colours
• Complementary colours
• Similar projectiles

[gentle aspen]

two of these points have me so genuinely mad I wanna pass out

actually yknow what three

[halcyon merlin]

you could see them as kinda virus

[gentle aspen]

J’m gonna go pass out

Bye

[halcyon merlin]

atleast they remind me of viruses

[trim sun]

with that logic bloatroaches are also infected with... sewer water?

[ocean crown]

Yea that one was a weak point my bad

[lone folio]

We have:
1: Life seed and light seed
2: hornet talking about lifeblood having "echoes of past infections I have witnessed" when talking about lifeblood
3: butterfly motif that could be related to the radiance being a moth and creating the moths
4: Both higher beings exist in dream realm
5: those projectile globs that both infections create
6: both infections create cysts on its hosts
7: both infections can also take form of a vine with some kind of fruit on it

[low oracle]

Lifeblood doesn't even compare to the infection. It works similarly, but is far weaker.
The infection and lifeblood both work nearly (scroll up to my previous messages) the same at their full stage. However Lifeblood is far less dominant and only inflicts damage due to some stupid idiot. Lifeblood also seems to have a butterfly related higher being, with similar essence/dream powers to the other Higher beings (not GMS or WL).
Saying Lifeblood is as bad as the infection is also blowing it massively out of proportion. Lifeblood doesn't do shit when it isn't touched. It's basically just a drug, and drug addicts abuse it.

[lone folio]

Here's all I have

[ocean crown]

Both can ressurect a corpse right? Maybe not idk

[ocean crown]

My running theory is thag this thing is/was a cocoon of some sort

[low oracle]

Yes. Lifeblood works more regenerative though, while the infection makes you stronger beyond your own limits. Hence husks blow themselves up, and several bugs become buried in the light.

[ocean crown]

Maybe the reasonthe lifeblood was so weak in hallownest

Bc the cocoon phase idk

[lone folio]

I mean I feel like lifeblood is a much more powerful substance if consumed

[low oracle]

It is a god, but I don't think it's THE higher being of lifeblood. It resembles a shadow creeper, so maybe the Pale King/someone locked it beyond the door, to stop it from escaping.

[lone folio]

I don't see how it looks like a shadow creeper

Its just a black bug thing with eyes

[low oracle]

It doesn't make you strong like the traitor lord. It makes you a crippling drug adict, that can't even present a bossfight.

[ocean crown]

Well lifeblood is CONSIDERABLY weaker

[lone folio]

If anything I say it looks fluffy

[drifting walrus]

BURY THE LIGHT

[ocean crown]

Yea instead of strength it’s more lifetime and mayber durability and survivability (last two complete speculation)

[low oracle]

It's head would perfectly fit onto the body of a large shadow creeper. The shadow creepers in Silksong (the big ones), also have more eyes. So it isn't out of the question that this behemoth just has more eyes too. Other creatures don't exist in the abyss either (HK).

[low oracle]

Survivability fits most, though it obviously works as good as silk did.

[stray fog]

What if its hiding off its own volition

It would explain why the godseekers don't detect it in godhome. It doesn't want to mingle

[ocean crown]

I just don’t see the shadow creeper

[ocean crown]

Isn’t it the only reason lifeblood is in godhome

[stray fog]

Probably

[lone folio]

Wasn't traitor lord already strong though?

[stray fog]

Because if the pale king locked it away, why would he add a lock that requires a lot of lifeblood consumption to open?

[ocean crown]

Yes but he accepted the infection to become stronger

[lone folio]

Like he was a mantis lord and the mantis lords are already very skilled and fairly strong bugs. He just got an alright boost to his strength

[ocean crown]

Also we have only seen one actual alive butterfly that isn’t lifeblood and that’s trobbio so I don’t think all butterflies are connected to lifeblood

[low oracle]

Maybe my imagination is a bit too much for this to be reasonable speculation. But I tried.

[stray fog]

Yeah animals can be repeated with them being very different (eg: unn and nuu, the green princes and the mantis tribe)

[low oracle]

No, he became so big because of the infection he willingly took in. I'm also saying "he" because of the wiki, even though "she" makes much more sense.

[lone folio]

Zango goes from some nobody bug on the power level of a pilgrim to a bossfight because if lifeblood. But unfortunately power scaling isn't very productive in lore so I should move on before I derail this conversation any further 😔

[ocean crown]

Shadow creepers have a more armored body rather than wrinkly ballsack looking

[whole holly]

you could have done something like using Abyss Creature head and huge shadow creeper body

[low oracle]

I didn't have enough space at the top, and I use a built in mousepad. Please, I tried.

[ocean crown]

Shit mb that was a small one thx google

IG I can maybe see it

[low oracle]

I wanted to make it somewhat quick.

[lone folio]

I can see something but idk

[ocean crown]

But I don’t think it is saying everytime we have seen it it was hanging from a ceiling

[whole holly]

yea, reason it didn't have big bossfight is because of Zango wasn't really bossfight material or skilled

[low oracle]

But it does join godhome, unlike the White Lady. So perhaps it does want to mingle, it just doesn't want to attune.

[trim sun]

i feel like i could definitly see the lifeblood head being a buttefly

[ocean crown]

Vertically like a fruit of a fucked up tree rather than the shadow creepers sticking to the wall

[low oracle]

He's just a challenge for the phial tool.

[whole holly]

yeah

[lone folio]

Phial tool beats traitor lord 🔥

[stray fog]

Another believer 🔥

[lone folio]

Hell yeah

[ocean crown]

I think it’s a cocoon I feel like it would make so much sense for a cocoon higher being to give birth to blue butterflies

[halcyon merlin]

sea of sorrow lifeblood higher being fight

[ocean crown]

But idk

[lone folio]

Wait for HKSSSOS to burn this theory to the ground 🔥🔥🔥🔥

[ocean crown]

PLEASE

[low oracle]

But it does have blue eyes, and the radiance isn't a cocoon either.

[low oracle]

No more lifeblood...Yay!!!

[stray fog]

What if the abyss creature is a pupa of a butterfly

[low oracle]

EYES

[ocean crown]

THATS WHAT I’M SAYING

[whole holly]

yeah, but design is bad, it is not designed to be grand higher being that invokes reverence, or worship, Radiance and Grand Mother Silk's designs invoke Glory, maybe it will be side character like Unn was, but even Nightmare King Grimm had great design

[low oracle]

EYES

[whole holly]

i hope it hatches soon

[stray fog]

W

[ocean crown]

Yes we know it could just be the thing inside w eyes

Hello

[low oracle]

It doesn't even need followers, some addict did that just because he could.

[lone folio]

Wait

Look

[low oracle]

I am.

[stray fog]

True, but it could be inspired by a pupa or something

[whole holly]

Joni was follower i guess, i think Lifeblood makes things Hivemind

[whole holly]

i hope it is in larval stage because design is ugly for butterfly higher being

[low oracle]

But they don't coordinate.

[stray fog]

😭

[whole holly]

infection was hivemind and they didn't coordinate

[ocean crown]

??

[stray fog]

Are you joking or fr?

[low oracle]

@whole holly I talked about infections here too.

[lone folio]

Those are actual pupa eyes

[stray fog]

Thats an actual thing?

[lone folio]

They may not see shit but they are there

[low oracle]

Then how are they a hivemind?

[lone folio]

Pretty sure yes

[whole holly]

i know, i have Compared effects of Lifeblood and radaince's infection as well, even the symptoms and stages of those afflictions contrast

[ocean crown]

What I was saying it why do you draw the line at a cocoon w eyes when we have god slugs and beings made of silk

[lone folio]

Look upp "pupa eyes"

A

Wait

"butterfly pupa eyes"

[low oracle]

No, I don't draw that line. Look at Marmu, she's fucked up too. If you send a picture I can tell you why, in case you are interested.

[whole holly]

they are managed by Lifeblood Higher Being, mostly inactive unless provoken, Radiance's infection was mind that could communicate with others, Lifeblood does similar things like puts alchemist in statis

[ocean crown]

Like we have so many things I don’t think a pupa making lots of blue butterflies is that outlandish

[lone folio]

Yeah this

[whole holly]

Pupae can have eyes, your expertise shines here

[lone folio]

I know my bugs 🔥

[stray fog]

W

[ocean crown]

For reference

[stray fog]

It even has those lines

[lone folio]

I mean I just wanted to prove that pupea have eyes not sure if I believe the theory or not

[ocean crown]

But no abdomen which bothers me

[whole holly]

i draw stuff maybe i should draw rest of body but imitating art style can be difficult

[ocean crown]

Also we know lifeblood has orgins in the sea

[lone folio]

Eh

We don't know if all lifeblood comes from the water

We just know that in pharloom it was found there

[stray fog]

So Lifeblood plants thrive in saltwater

Idk about plants that much so I can't say anything

[lone folio]

I mean

We don't really know that either

Like they probably do but no definitive answers

[ocean crown]

Ugh tc please release another teaser

[stray fog]

Maybe not thrive, but it is one of the (or the only) environments where they grow

I thought someone could use some irl botany knowledge here
Thats why I mentioned it

[low oracle]

Ok @lone folio done!

[lone folio]

I mean knowing HK devs we will be sent on a mission and then we will find the lifeblood core area deep underwater where the abyss guy is gonna be and he's gonna go "yo fuck you I'm actually a ladybug"

Boom that's my prediction

[whole holly]

i have those overlap, kinda fits

to be fair i did bad cleanup job

[edgy nebula]

if tc was cool theyd include lifeblood in the abyss in skong

[stray fog]

Hold on why did the lifeblood outbreak start only when void took over pharloom

Maybe this is related to the lifeblood creature being in the abyss

[lone folio]

Hold on he may be cooking

[whole holly]

maybe it is just time passed

[whole holly]

Infection takes over crossroads when breaking dream seals

[stray fog]

For all other quests, the game uses resting and fast travelling to denote the passage of time

[stray fog]

True

I was not cooking

[whole holly]

i mean visual aspects of Lifeblood/Plasmium

[low oracle]

Where can I combine pictures, what would be a good website?

Imma cook up something

[stray fog]

A photo editing program would be the best option

[ocean crown]

But we’re getting ao much lore in sos bc we see the lab

[whole holly]

yeah but something like Canva should be fine

[low oracle]

Does freeform work too do you think?

[stray fog]

Idk

[low oracle]

Idk how to share it though.

[ocean crown]

This is the pupa of a common blue

[low oracle]

I will close discord, I'll be back in a moment. When I come back I can hopefully present what I want properly.

[whole holly]

Freeform, maybe, does it have export options

[whole holly]

yeah, i want that in HK

[whole marsh]

I’ve found what I believe are muckroach eggs

[lone folio]

Muckroaches don't climb though

Do they?

I remember them jumping everywhere

I may be schizophrenic actually

[whole holly]

other than color mismatch it looks like it fits

kinda at least

[lone folio]

I mean

[whole holly]

....

[lone folio]

Kind of??

But also we don't get to see any other part of its body

[whole holly]

that is true i guess

[whole marsh]

The mutated ones have wings. Could be the “livestock” ones in Sinner’s Road had their wings cut off for easier handling.

[lone folio]

So really it could just be a Ford Escort ZX2 SR. We will never know until sea of sorrow in early 2039

[lone folio]

We have no evidence to prove that

[whole marsh]

That’s fair

[whole holly]

i think Abyss Creature won't be in Sea of Sorrows

[whole marsh]

I still think the Bilewater ones having wings helps though

[lone folio]

🤷‍♂️

[lone folio]

What makes you think that?

[halcyon merlin]

still on the lifeblood talk?

[lone folio]

Hell yeah

The coolest thing in hollow knight

Blue raspberry flavoured infection 🔥

[halcyon merlin]

blueberry juice vs orange juice vs white grape juice vs grape juice

[whole holly]

Because of how Dream Realm connected it is

[lone folio]

Fair

I mean elegy of the deep could maybe get us there 🤷‍♂️

(I do not know dream realm and silk realm lore)

[ocean crown]

Let us hope

I need my supply

I need it

[halcyon merlin]

true

[ocean crown]

[halcyon merlin]

elegy of the deep is kinda like dream nail

[whole holly]

So do I

[edgy nebula]

elegy of the deep is dream nail from wish

[whole holly]

How would we enter into memory to witness it’s current self though

[ocean crown]

Dream nail if it was a time machine

A “go back to your primeinator”

[lone folio]

Okay here's the idea: we find big ass lifeblood core sub area that has a idk big lifeblood fruit or something that we elegy of the deep

Then..

Idk but the green prince is his current self in his memory

[edgy nebula]

lowkey we should be able to elegy of the deep the shamans corpses to go back to prime pharloom

[ocean crown]

https://tenor.com/view/ss-sk-skong-silk-song-gif-6069929492524291916

[whole holly]

Is he, I mean his current self and past self are same

[lone folio]

Yeah we get to go to wet blasted steps when the karak kingdom is alive and then right before we get there SUPRISE ITS STEEL ASSASINS SHARPE AND HE SENDS YOU TO FUCKING SANDSEA WASTES HELL YEAH BABYYYY

[edgy nebula]

he reflects on the present while in the past

[ocean crown]

Gay men are ALWAYS in their prime

[whole holly]

I need my lifeblood supply with Sea of Sorrows DLC

[low oracle]

I've got the thing, there is just one slight problem. Who here uses apple?

[ocean crown]

I hope we get crest of the crack addict and become a butterfly and then dance w trobbio

Hire me tc

[low oracle]

I've got a link, I'm not sure how it works though. Should I send it?

[lone folio]

Is it that crypto Elon musk scam because if yes then it will work flawlessly because somehow people keep falling for it

[low oracle]

Hell no, I'm no dirty scum!

[ocean crown]

Find an export button

And export it as a png

Or smth

[low oracle]

I'm just not sure wether I would give my private information by sharing this freeform board.

[low oracle]

You shouldn't have asked for that...

[ocean crown]

I would have ised photopea to amke an image personally

[low oracle]

Ah, actually you can somewhat read it.

Not the fine print though.

https://www.icloud.com/freeform/00b68CGvJtlRSE1XdRDhG907A

[ocean crown]

Oh interesting

[edgy nebula]

the filename doesnt really mean anything

[ocean crown]

I can read everything

[lone folio]

Idk the way it looks in game isnt very root like

But that could just be me

I think it's fluffy because then we have more connections to radiance

[edgy nebula]

yeah it's just textured cause it's huge

[low oracle]

Could be either way, both seems plausible.

[ocean crown]

I can see a root like ish thjng

[lone folio]

Looks like paint strokes. Paint higher being

[low oracle]

Here is the small text by the way, I couldn't read it on the screenshot.

[edgy nebula]

greyroot's house looks far different than it

[whole holly]

Where did you get fan art of abyss creature as root?

[low oracle]

Here are some fanart interpretations.

[lone folio]

That first one is so accurate

The fourth one isn't half bad but I would love to know how a root can blink

I mean

WL blinks but she's a different kind of root

[low oracle]

I just googled it.

[whole holly]

I don’t like fact that abyss creature looks like xenomorph with avatar aesthetic

[low oracle]

We only see its face and you already don't like it. Think about it.

[whole holly]

Let’s be real it is enough, hope it is in larval stage because it is ugly af

[low oracle]

Also what the fuck is this reddit?

[low oracle]

I think it looks cool...
Unless it pulls a Pale King, it would evolve into something even bigger, so that's unlikely.

[edgy nebula]

<@&283547423706447872>

[raw plover]

What

[edgy nebula]

scam

[raw plover]

Where

[low oracle]

Scam, don't click.

[edgy nebula]

musta run away

[raw plover]

[lone folio]

this is my prediction for abyss creature

[whole holly]

I want it to contrast radiance

[raw plover]

Oh shit it's tytus the thunderblade I'm outta here

[edgy nebula]

i feel like i remember someone saying the wormways lifeblood infection looked different from the hallownest one because there werent any butterflies, but i dont know who said it

maybe i'm going insane

[lone folio]

man i always get mistaken for someone from a franchise i dont even know exists

[whole holly]

Diamond guy

[lone folio]

...

[edgy nebula]

well whoever it was theyre wrong

[whole holly]

I get mistaken for Nika the Sun God

[low oracle]

In all seriousness though.

[lone folio]

i didnt see the butterflies at first

but i do now

[whole holly]

Maybe they means flying butterflies we see in HK

[low oracle]

Shit, my screenshot is dumb.

Seems the butterflies are only present where the Lifeblood "peaks".

Right...?

[edgy nebula]

possibly

wow theyre even present before act 3

[low oracle]

Because the addict has an artificial core built into his crack machine.

Breaking bad Breaking Bug!

[low oracle]

I must say though, the Butterflies don't look as much like butterflies as in the first game.

[ocean crown]

Well this lifeblood is from the sea

Of crack

New dlc name

Sea of crack

[low oracle]

There's a drug addict writing.

[ocean crown]

THE ORIGINAL drug addict is the reason it’s in pharloom

[low oracle]

Scientist my ass. Anyone smart enough to have a degree, WOULD NOT FUCKING PUT IN ALL OF THE PLANTS. Also, since Hornet is aware of Pale King's lifeblood ban, she canonically illegally takes drugs.

[lone folio]

no need to thank me team cherry

[whole marsh]

It’s not illegal in Pharloom

[lone folio]

i made your trailer poster for you

[ocean crown]

Well they ain’t in hallownest

It’s like if I went to canada I could drink legally (besides dinners)

[low oracle]

I'm going to go rest now. Perhaps some other time we can compare the Lifeblood charms and what they depict. One looked a bit like a winged insect. Bye!

[lone folio]

zangos corpse looks so good honestly

[low oracle]

21 is wild though, 14 is enough if the parents are there.

[ocean crown]

In america on private property you csn drink w parents permission

[lone folio]

like why cant i have a bossfight where i fight his corpse with no lifeblood

[ocean crown]

Also 21 is fair

[low oracle]

To any lore fan, this is peak ragebait.

[edgy nebula]

mogged

[low oracle]

Idk, I'm not there.

Cya

[lone folio]

this guy was so intresting to me when i first found him

only later would i discover

that he is the summoned saviour

anyways relating to zango i find the term "alluring power" intresting for lifeblood

I wonder if its anything like the radiances infection and how it was also alluring

[ocean crown]

Classic fandom

[quartz stump]

was the bellbeast the actually intended ride for the belllways

or was there another creature those were built in mind with which became extinct one day

[blissful harbor]

iirc someone mentions there use to be gilded cargoes that travelled through them

Aye. Rumours in the camp say these bells run throughout the lands, great veins of them, forged by our ancient kin. And some even say bugs used to travel through them, in gilded carriages no less! Surely such fanciful travel would be a sin for us pilgrims. [..]

[digital thunder]

hm

[lone folio]

Journal states that they are bugs that live in and travel in the old bell veins of pharloom

And that's about it

[quartz stump]

oooohhh interesting

[lone folio]

Oh actually I find this interesting for another reason. The ancient pilgrims made the bells

Interesting

[ionic stump]

I think it’s more addictive if anything

Lifeblood doesn’t seem to lure in unplasmified beings

Only if ingested I think it starts to manifest in your mind craving more

Unless i’m wrong this is my theory

[lone folio]

Im pretty sure hornet saying that she feels pity for Zango because of the fact that it's such an alluring substance kind of disproves this

Maybe

Oh wait but he was plasmified while throwing the seeds around

[mint stratus]

I don’t believe Loam is powering anything anymore (if he ever was) besides that thing firing geo

I assumed most of the entire citadel was powered by the steam produced in the steam works honestly

Steam and silk

[graceful grail]

For anyone who hasn’t seen it before, i will be doing a run where i have all the ost’s played in sequence. (Please let me know if this is impossible to do)

(songs can be played out of order, but can only be counted as completed after all previous ost’s are played)

[silk dirge]

i mean wouldnt this be impossible

bc of enter pharloom

[limpid summit]

I don’t think Cut Through can happen before either Cloak or Clawline

From what I’m seeing it’s Craws and Groal

[silk dirge]

cut through should actually be fine

bc sherma whiteward

cut through from my memory is
-sherma whiteward quest(special variant of it)
-far fields lava gauntlet
-groal
-craws
-cogwork clappers room in act 3

theres a few others maybe

but i dont remember

[narrow horizon]

this should be pretty easy tbh

Cuz they said "songs can be played out of order"

[ionic stump]

Lugoli and broodmother

[whole marsh]

Question: does anyone know WFT is up with the citadel’s steam? Like, what is it even used for? All the automations are clockwork, and silk fly powered, so no steam (outside of that one automaton that uses Steam to clean stuff). All the music is automated via clockwork. Like what is the real/greater purpose of the steam and piping??

[ionic stump]

Cut through is peak

[silk dirge]

forgot about them yeah

[ionic stump]

Probably powering steam machines or saunas not seen ingame

[silk dirge]

why does the cogwork clapper thing in act 3 exist

most like random silk soar thing ever

[narrow horizon]

because they wanted to fuck up the kingdom in as many ways as possible so they decided air pollution would be good to tack on

[ionic stump]

No clue

The reward isnt that big either

[whole marsh]

Answers unsatisfactory. I’ll have to do some digging myself.

Unrelated note: I noticed the light fixtures in the Weavenests look like Dive Pharlids. The details in this game never cease to amaze

[unique canopy]

Dead bodies are cremated. Their silk ends up around the Exhaust Organ (creating The Mist) and Sinner's Road before eventually settling in Greymoor, where the remaining dregs can be caught by the workers. The soul within the silk creates the Mist Wraiths the same way it creates the Unravelled.

[muted lantern]

The steam robots are for cleaning machinery, also I think cogs need to be cooled or else they deform, so maybe some water cooling system. Though silk seems to be infused into the exhaust organs steam so it might not even be water vapor.

[whole marsh]

So like, I get that, but that only accounts for the very bottom of the citadel. Steam shows up everywhere.

[unique canopy]

I'd have to double check but iirc the steam pipes under the spa are the only ones that don't get turned off when you beat Phantom. I might be wrong though.

And hot steam underneath the spa should be self-evident in its purpose.

[muted lantern]

The ones near songclave remain I think

[whole marsh]

I get ventilation (funny that HVAC exists in lore lmao), I just don’t get why it shows up everywhere, even in places that seem pointless (like the room to the left of Songclave)

[gentle aspen]

its used to power the citadel at large assumedly and the steam’s refuse is dumped into bilewater and associated areas

[unique canopy]

The ones under the right Grand Reed room? Yeah, forgot about those. Gonna guess they go up to Memorium somehow? Since that place needs a lot of water to keep the lush vegetation alive.

[whole marsh]

Ahh now that’s an interesting theory

[swift needle]

Quick little thing I wanted to point out

The little transitions with the panteon 5

[silk dirge]

no a lot of steam corridors stay on

its only the large organ ones that turn off after phantom

which you only find near exhaust organ

[muted lantern]

I think the exhaust and the steam vents might be different things

Maybe it's a heating system for the citadel?

[ocean crown]

Hello sklore

[polar mural]

Umm r there’s 3 endings?

And how does the trap work for the portal at grandmother silk fight?

[muted lantern]

4 I think weaver queen, cursed child, snared silk, and true ending.

[polar mural]

I forgot that cursed child is even a thing

It’s so hard to not heal for the rest of ur run

Thanks!

[muted lantern]

I think it just uses soul and weaver tech to open a portal to the void. We know soul can let you teleport so opening a portal isn't too farfetched.

[polar mural]

I wonder how the caretaker manages to set it up tho. Wouldn’t it also have pulled hornet in too if she got too close for the trap? Hats still rlly risky to do Ngl

Wonder what team cherry was thinking abt when they addad that cut scene…

[muted lantern]

It was likely a targetted spell, but hornet full well would have been pulled in if she wasn't cut free by lace

[lyric rose]

I mean, I doubt he ever saw the monarch’s HANDS

[chrome cave]

I think silksong is the friends we made along the way

Sherma you go left

Shakara

You go right

Lace..

You just be lace

Together

We are

Silksong!

[upbeat fog]

I was wondering do we know if the void controls the black thread or if grand mother silk does

[craggy smelt]

Silk probably has her hands full with maintaining her cocoon and trying not to get dragged down and devoured by the Void

the Haunting might still be operating on, like, auto-pilot or default settings or whatever

and the Void sometimes overtakes it now and again

[upbeat fog]

That makes sense

[limpid summit]

Yak is probably right

It’s like how haunted bugs don’t need to be directly controlled by GMS all the time

Now they’re still haunted but it’s just not GMS who is hands off

[muted lantern]

the word yapping has been forever ruined

[limpid summit]

https://tenor.com/view/speed-ishowspeed-speed-stream-ishowspeed-stream-speed-nod-gif-1082323842437565509

[edgy nebula]

hornet is a yapper confirmed

yippity yap yap yap that’s all she says

[graceful grail]

The Organ

[graceful grail]

Is it just me, or is it like the silk controls the body of bugs, whereas the infection in hollownest controls the mind??

Playing music makes the bug inside sing its real thoughts, but dreamnailing a bug only has the Radiance talking in there.

[limpid summit]

The haunting “drives bugs to madness and discord”

It probably has some aspect of mind control

I think Pavo talks about being like semi conscious while ensnared in the bellhart web

Lemme find it

Oh, ahh. It is difficult... Upsetting even to think. Strange, sad memories, not my own, and my own thoughts smothered amidst the tangle.

Haunting probably ensnares bugs mentally in the same web

Leaving a twisted version of their own thoughts (like Infection) but the reason for their madness is different than Rad capitalizing off and inflaming their desires

[craggy smelt]

in both cases, it seems to be the will of a Higher Being overwhelming the will of the mortal bug
Radiance compels them to violence in service of her will, otherwise they're reduced to basic instincts
Silk binds them to devote themselves to her

in both cases you eventually lose your sense of self it seems

the infection eventually kills you, not sure about the haunting, though Pavo mentioned that some didn't recover from it when Hornet freed Bellhart

that sounds more like a permanent mental loss than physical death though

[muted lantern]

If any bugs recover from the haunting, as in after sotv. (presumably theres no coming back from the black threading, but normal haunting maybe) Do you think they would have lasting effects? brain damage, physical disabilities? Or would they just be fine if not a little traumatized.

[limpid summit]

I’m sure the former

But since blackthreading is basically inevitable it doesn’t matter

Which sort of sucks

Blackthreaded bugs are just dead no matter what

[muted lantern]

yeah but not every bug got black threaded, theres still some regular haunted, they might come out ok (except for the haunted that are reanimated corpses)

[limpid summit]

There are?

[muted lantern]

Only some enemies get black threaded in act 3

there are still enemies with normal stats

[limpid summit]

I thought every enemy eventually turns black threaded when you enter

[muted lantern]

no it's just random enemies predetermined when you enter the room. Even before they play the animation where they turn black those specific enemies have boosted hp.

[limpid summit]

Oh I mean I guess regardless there’s like

Signis and Gron

They never get blackthreaded

[unborn nova]

Is Nuu related to Unn?

[muted lantern]

Not that we know of

[craggy smelt]

nuupe

[muted lantern]

no evidence to connect besides the name

and the eyestalks ig?

[craggy smelt]

nuu might be more of a hermit crab than slug or snail

given their 'shell' comes off