sk-lore

[whole holly]

Team Cherry , both of them

[tulip flame]

pellen and ari?

[whole holly]

Yeah i think

[tulip flame]

makes sense

the game designer and artist

[whole holly]

Yeah

[swift needle]

She COULD have been able to manifest herself in the physical world but since people stopped remembering her she got angry and went orange juice mode

😭✌️

Would do the same if a giant worm stole all my bug huzz ✌️

In lore tablets there are like certain symbols related to the radiances and the pka light with radiances being huge while the pks light is on top of his head maybe symbolising intelligence?

[viscid ridge]

Which symbols are you refering to? Like the ones in hallownests crown or?

[swift needle]

Ya

Also there's one in kings pass with a body of a wyrm

[viscid ridge]

I might be misrembering but i dont remember anything like that?

Like all the kings pass lore tablets look like straight lines intertwining

[ember river]

We don't know that

I don't think it's mentioned anywhere if the Radiance could manifest

Radiance's light is essence

Period

[tulip flame]

do we know that? Idr that being said. Afaik the bugsjust worshipped her and she was very much real and was always just a dream goddess.

[ember river]

The Nightmare Heart exists solely within the dream realm as well

It's not that strange

[whole holly]

she is referred to as brighter than essence, it inherently implies difference

[ember river]

Because it's a living being, the Pale King is also brighter than soul and yet his abilities are most likely tied to the manipulation of soul

Since that seems the running theme with pale beings at least

[whole holly]

but maybe her Essence is unique in way and brighter similar to how Scarlet Nightmare Essence is deepest power that has difference than typical essence

[whole holly]

where is that exact quote said? brighter than soul

[ember river]

Keep in mind that magic and all that are basically just manipulating these essential energies of the world to do stuff

[ember river]

You can just see it

There's soul in those containers in the sanctum

And he was apparently the brightest creature in the land, surpassing even the Radiance

[whole holly]

seeing and saying are different, since saying it has obvious lore implications, seeing is based on individual perception

[stray grove]

I agree Nika

Saying PK is “brighter than Soul” also implies Soul has a set brightness which isn’t even true

[ember river]

That still doesn't really clear out why would the Radiance had a power distinct from the substance that makes her entire being

[stray grove]

It’s a very weird statement

[whole holly]

brighter than soul has no lore implications because it is not mentioned in game and has no objective standpoint

[stray grove]

PK’s brightness was probably due to Soul, if anything

[whole holly]

and depending on individual perception

[ember river]

And Radiance's was due to Essence is the point I was trying to make

[stray grove]

Also you can’t even see it, PK doesn’t look that bright in game

[whole holly]

he also has his signature essence

[whole holly]

we don't see him in his peak to be fair, but yes

[ember river]

We get a glimpse

At the end of the path of pain

[stray grove]

In Birthplace/PoP he’s not that bright either

But he could probably control his brightness so it’s irrelevant

We are told explicitly by Emilitia/Old Stag that he was very bright, I don’t know what you are trying to argue

[whole holly]

it is probable that her signature essence is brighter than regular essence, hence why she is brighter than essence

[ember river]

What do you mean "signature essence"

[stray grove]

Radiance’s essence is brighter than regular essence

Seer says so

[ember river]

I am not disagreeing with you, the discussion was about the Radiance's light being different to normal essence

[stray grove]

I mean it is different just not on a fundamental level

It’s different in the sense that it is much brighter

[ember river]

It's still essence at its core, same as NH's essence

[whole holly]

in Godhome every higher being has Dreamcatcher/Essence particles with color that are signature/unique to them, we also see it in White Palace

[ember river]

Yeah, those are seen in various points throughout the game

In the lifeblood core room as well

[stray grove]

It’s a different form of essence yes

We use Essence as a generic term in the community

[ember river]

I'd assume there's a difference in Essence just like soul can manifest in various ways

[stray grove]

But in the context of the Seer quote Essence is referring to the fragments of light dreams and memories are made of

Hence why it’s distinct from the Dream Nail (also made of Essence) and Radiance (also made of Essence)

She says they’re “similar”

[ember river]

I wonder why there was no essence in Red Memory

[gentle aspen]

She couldn’t

[stray grove]

There’s no essence in any of the Silksong dream sequences

It’s because Hornet is using Needolin/Shaman Magic to access those dreams instead of the Dream Nail

So the essence gets replaced with silk particles

Aesthetic choice

In HK essence was front and center Silksong is all about silk

Doesn’t mean it’s not there

[whole holly]

yes, that is true, nobody argued that they are categorically separate, but they can have variations

[sacred cloud]

I mean, it should be there. Given how the Dream Realm is made up of Essence.

It just doesn't show itself.

[stray grove]

It is there

It just has the appearance of silk

[whole holly]

Knight can see dream particles in dream realm when dreamers trap him, before he gets dream nail(i know i said dream lot of times)

[stray fog]

Because hornet doesn't have a dream nail

So she can't see essence

[whole holly]

. @stray fog

[gentle aspen]

because the dreamers are shoving them into the dream realm and the game was centered around dreams and essence

[stray fog]

That involves dream realm beings actively doing something
Something like that doesn't happen to hornet for her to see essence

[gentle aspen]

hornet mainly uses silk

And tools

[stray grove]

Yes, but again it’s an aesthetic thing (HK is centered around dreams)
That’s also the same sequence where it gets the Dream Nail and it can’t see other sources of Essence before that, that’s also inside the Dream Realm and the Dreamers’ powers manifest as Essence unlike the Needolin/Shaman magic

[whole holly]

her getting into memories is equivalent, especially in red memory

[whole holly]

Shamans shove her into red memory, game theme is not really lore explanation

[stray fog]

Memories are closely related to silk too

[gentle aspen]

the shamans aren’t using essence

[stray grove]

Lore explanation is dreamer magic and shaman magic manifest differently

[gentle aspen]

They’re using the old hearts

[stray grove]

And soul

To open the veil

They even glow white and disintegrate due to soul overuse

[whole holly]

yes, it is aesthetic, i know that, but even Silk/Soul and Essence are somewhat connected

[whole holly]

i know, but how does that cancel out it's connection to essence

[whole holly]

that is true, different methods can have variations in outcome, they aren't manipulating essence for Hornet to be in Dream Realm by Dream manipulation

[stray grove]

I mean yeah sort of, soul can be used to split the veil between the realms of dream and waking and essence can be magically transmuted into soul but they’re distinct things
The dreams in SS are probably still made of essence

[whole holly]

i agree

[stray grove]

The method to access them is the difference

[stray fog]

Yep

[whole holly]

yeah, shamans don't have essence manipulation in same sense

[stray grove]

Yeah their power’s all of soul

Even in HK soul being used to split the veil wasn’t unprecedented, PK might’ve done something similar to transport WP

But PK does have essence manipulation as well so it’s hard to say

[whole holly]

yea but i am assuming his essence manipulation is byproduct of soul manipulation

[stray grove]

Could be ig, there’s probably some overlap when you’re a literal deity with that level of power

Unn and Radiance also managed to create physical beings with soul using Essence

[whole holly]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Dream_Wielder Essence has connection to Soul

[stray grove]

The Essence > Soul conversion is well established yes

As I said Rad and Unn also do this not just DN

And there’s stuff like Essence Ghosts/bosses having Soul

(Cos they’re mimicking life)

[whole holly]

but their power primarily come from essence soul manipulation is byproduct, vice versa for Pale King and Pale Beings presumably

[stray grove]

That was the point I was making yes

[stray fog]

Do we know that it is a byproduct

[whole holly]

Sylphsong is also essence of being merged within

[stray grove]

I mean we don’t

But it’s true that pale beings are much more soul focused unlike the essence focused Rad or NMH (or Unn)

[whole holly]

they show no direct connection to soul and plausible explanation is essence's natural connection to soul cemented by Dream Wielder charm, but it is presumption i guess

[whole holly]

which is why Shade Lord is most unique Higher Being

[stray grove]

Yeah

Lord of Shades is also unique in the sense that it ascended to HB status, though we don’t know how the other HBs originated we know they’ve all existed at that level of power for a very long time

And ofc unifying the Void is “a strength before unseen”

[fresh badger]

Caretaker: Bring us the hearts, Old One. Make'em beat, fierce and final. See for yourself the forgotten strength of this land of bugs before we burn those memories in its saving.
I mean... 'burn those memories' feels a lot like consuming essence in the way dreamgate does

[stray fog]

If the weaver queen is a higher being, then she is also a hb who ascended

[gentle aspen]

don’t care

[fresh badger]

donut care

[whole holly]

Plasmium/Lifeblood is weird because is has connection to essence(though Abyss Creature and Godhome Room) but it warps Soul based healing spell, that might be because of Soul/Essence connection but is weird and untraditional.

[gentle aspen]

the old hearts are synonymous with the lands and the people in it, being passed down through generations

it entails essence as it deals with memory but they aren’t using essence as the method for accessing said memory

[stray grove]

We don’t know enough about it to draw any conclusions imo

DLC will explain more

[stray fog]

Butterfly higher being time 🔥

[stray grove]

Hornet will go to Lifeblood Beast and tell it to stop the Plasmium infection

[whole holly]

they may be but not directly/knowingly i guess seer confirms memories and essence are connected: "This kingdom is full of old memories, both beautiful and grotesque. Seek them out, reveal them, and gather Essence."

[stray grove]

Memories are made of essence

But the Shamans aren’t using essence, if burning the hearts is the same as burning essence that’s besides the point

[whole holly]

if they are using Hearts related to memories,they are using essence, just not directly on knowingly

[stray grove]

More or less yeah

[whole holly]

i have another discussion, if Moss Druid is trying to find Heart of Mosslands, do you guys think he will succeed concocting it? since he is working towards it and talks about old hearts

in DLC at least

[stray grove]

They seem to have been successful

The implications of that are unclear though, we may see more in a later DLC we might not

Ahhh! Ahhh-ohhhh! **The smell is right! Like the others! But very young! **Oh, voice of the woods! Oh, dance of the queen! Oh... oh! Beat harder, let us hear it! Oh! Ohhhhhhhh!

And in Act 3:

Ohh, the world trembles! But we can hear it... beating steady... beating free...

So they did successfully manage to get the heart and it seems to be beating, it’s just very young

[whole holly]

who is going to have heart though? since i would assume mossberry concoction is toxic to most creatures, unless Moss Druid will be new heart or New Successor is going to come out of cauldron

[stray grove]

Probably Moss Druid

It’s implied this has been the goal of the Moss Druids for a long time, and this one has finally succeeded at it

They’re also the only one who can feel the new beat it seems

[whole holly]

i though others didn't exist,she said so but i don't think she is reliable narrator

[stray grove]

They exist, they probably just died out

[whole holly]

i mean if shamans wanted hearts with memories i don't think their senses are strong because they didn't sense Verdania's Old Heart either

[whole holly]

so they don't exist?

[stray grove]

Well, not anymore ig

[stray grove]

tbf this is a very young heart

Still weak

Even Moss Druid says so

Them not sensing Verdania Heart is weird but they only needed three and Verdania is dead too

[whole holly]

"Mmm. You can hear it, yes? Listen close. Weak, but precious. A pulse, a beat! Faint... Our very own... "

[stray grove]

Yep

[frank dove]

Kinda sounds like karmelita though

You sure it isn't?

[whole holly]

we are sure

[frank dove]

Does it specifically say either way

[frank dove]

Where

[whole holly]

Moss Druid dialogue after agreeing to hand over mossberries : Mmm! Mmm! This is them, the precious, promised fruits!

Drop them in, there they go, and now at last we can begin!
Ahhh! Ahhh-ohhhh! The smell is right! Like the others! But very young! Oh, voice of the woods! Oh, dance of the queen! Oh... oh! Beat harder, let us hear it! Oh! Ohhhhhhhh!
Mmm. Mmm! The pain... my mind aches. Why? The berries, the nasty fruits. Oh the visions!
You, wish promiser. Wish granter. You brought me what I needed and stayed by my side. Companion through my ordeal. I could ask for nothing more.
And for the parting, a gift. An amulet of we druids. Or me druid? No others, I think.
May it ease your sorrows, wish granter. May it cry for you when no tears are left!
First conversation Hornet: Druid, I require a pitcher of your Mossberry Stew to satiate a gourmand of the Citadel. Will you pass some to me?

Mmmmm! A bug who'll consume my berry brew? Strong they'd be to bear a taste so sharp!
Here is a flavour so ripe! Searing! Flavour of pleasure and pain! They too may see the visions if they taste it strong. The visions, could they see?
Grant the stew! For your bug, mmmm... to share the visions. Yes! We shall pass it!
First conversation Mmmm! Is it time? Our lands shake their sorrow! For the new beat, yes? Demanding! For a new rhythm...

Hornet: These quakes you feel, they are not your land's sadness, they are its collapse, one bound to happen if their source cannot be quelled.
What? No, no no... the beat... It is the beat our land wishes! Calls for it! Needs one new!
Exhausted dialogue, after finding all Mossberries Ohh, the world trembles! But we can hear it... beating steady... beating free...

[frank dove]

Hm ok

[whole holly]

Moss Druid kind of reminds of Green Wizards from Adventure Time, and plant beings in Hollow Knight

[fervent sigil]

what the fuck is a “pale focus” bro 😭

[wintry verge]

ok so what the hell evenis the faeforn

[torpid spade]

a chill dude

[whole holly]

where did you see it mentioned in-game?

[whole holly]

Fayforn may be moth, i guess

[sullen igloo]

guys

I haven't played sk

does it have a happy ending?

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[fervent sigil]

isn’t there, saw ts on a random tiktok hk lore video

they be saying anything these days

[whole holly]

maybe they mean Focus that Knight, Vessels and Pale King have, but it still doesn't make sense, they should just have said Focus

[fervent sigil]

“pale beings have a special focus like gms” ????????

[whole holly]

GMS has Bind, Pale King has Focus, idk about White Lady

[fervent sigil]

don’t let tiktok hk lore get into here 💔

[whole holly]

this Channel is doing good job of that, but idk about public, lore channel is generally toxic to newcomers

[whole holly]

i like your Pfp effect

seriously guys does White Lady have Focus?

[wintry verge]

i mean all pale beings have access to some form of soul

prob not focus

but something with soul

[whole holly]

i know that, not what i asked

[terse warren]

Lore channel is toxic to everyone

[terse warren]

Have we ever even seen PK focus shit

[whole holly]

idk? Focus ability of knight presumably comes from either parent since, Pale King counted on that for Vessels to contain the infection

Higher beings, these words are for you alone.

Your great strength marks you amongst us. Focus your soul and you shall achieve feats of which others can only dream.
– Lore Tablet in King's Pass

[terse warren]

That lore tablet is definitely a lore tablet of all time

I just don't know man

I don't think that Focus is really a Pale Being thing

[whole holly]

yeah, i don't get it

[terse warren]

For now I'd rather say no

Unless we get more Root lore or more Pale being lore at all

And also like

PV has a clearly different kind of focus to HK

So that's also a thing

[whole holly]

me neither, it is supposed to be higher being thing but none have shown such thing, only Soul related Focus we see in game is Spiral Focus by shamans, Soul Sanctum attempting to achieve Pure Focus and our Focus ability

[terse warren]

Imo focusing is just a Soul ability

[whole holly]

elaborate

[terse warren]

PV can damage and doesn't heal lol

Not much to elaborate

As for Bind, I think it might just be stitching

[whole holly]

not really Godseeker also Focuses by their Mask Crest, Hunter Crest gives us Focus as attack bonus

[terse warren]

As opposed to the Hornet-unique Bind that consumes abilities of others, as that seems to be a thing that only her and GMS have

[terse warren]

I think Godseeker is a different kind of focus

[whole holly]

i thought you mean Pale King instead of Pure Vessel

[whole holly]

yeah, different kinds of Focus exist i think

[terse warren]

No I mean like

It's called focus but it's unrelated

[whole holly]

yes, i guess it is weird

[whole holly]

yeah, it seems like Healing is different ability for every creature, Hornet uses Bind and Knight uses Focus, Weavers can bind but not like Hornet to bind Weavers or Corpses as Crests and Abilities

Knight has something similar to Pure Focus, or Spiral Focus

Mask Maker in Hollow Knight talks about Focusing

and Pure Vessel has unique Focus: Pure Vessel begins focusing Soul in a fashion similar to the Knight. However, unlike the Knight, Pure Vessel does not heal from it and instead surrounds themself with a circular aura that eventually explodes. Shortly after, six smaller auras appear randomly throughout the arena. Then these smaller auras explode in rapid succession in the order in which they appeared. Pure Vessel begins another attack as the final small explosion occurs.

maybe Focusing varies by individual?

[heavy gyro]

I think PV not healing is just gameplay

[whole holly]

Mask Maker : A mask! A face! Does it need one? Does it not? To define. To focus. To exist.

[fervent sigil]

idk if its focus but

its related to roots maybe

[stray fog]

People say that this instance of "focus" is about actual focus (paying attention to something)

[fervent sigil]

for the PFP effect its free lol get discord orbs and buy it

[stray fog]

Because the sk mask maker says that without a mask, tasks become heavy

And he becomes lucid

[whole holly]

maybe same as Godseeker's Focus? but that has metaphysical effects

[whole holly]

makes sense

[whole holly]

it's cool but i don't want effects that much, it just fits lord of shades pfp

[fervent sigil]

i only spend my money on good stuff and i dont care about my profile cuz i bet 15$ no one will check it and say "Wow, Such a cool profile i should be friends with this person !"

[fervent sigil]

Back to topic. "amongst us" maybe mean WL and PK have the same ability? And i dont think TK and THK/PV have anything root related

wait ngl we need more root lore

[limpid summit]

Focus as we know it probably comes from PK since Hornet’s bind is uniquely similar

[gentle aspen]

well

[limpid summit]

Who knows WL may have something too

[gentle aspen]

it doesn’t heal because healing bosses suck

unless you’re first sinner

[limpid summit]

“Great strength marks you amongst us” probably isnt literal

It’s just calling travelers awesome and powerful so they stay

[terse warren]

Could've just had to damage it to stop the heal smh, just like happens to us

[gentle aspen]

its a fat ass soul rune nuke

[heavy gyro]

First sinner can also bind so Hornet's bind is unrelated to focus

[sinful nimbus]

Weaver binds work differently though, they don't assimilate crests.

[stray fog]

Do we know that for sure

[sinful nimbus]

Eva notes it as unique yes

[stray fog]

True

But hornet can bind abilities from dead Weavers, who might have intentionally been waiting for a daughter of a distant land to come and bind them

So the Weavers expected a weaver descendant to bind their abilities

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah ala TK learning snail shaman spells

[graceful grail]

The question is, can GMS bind?? Why didn’t she bind with the weaver shrines in pharloom

[sinful nimbus]

But those aren't crests

[sinful nimbus]

She's napping

[stray fog]

Would gms even need to learn wall climb

[graceful grail]

Does she just go back napping after bindong with the part weavers that were brought to her??

[sinful nimbus]

She can interact with the world on some level in her sleep

[stray fog]

I assume she did that while asleep
She created phantom and lace while sleeping so its not far fetched

[sinful nimbus]

She just can't physically get up and walk to a weaver shrine

[graceful grail]

Is it agreed that Phantom was created before, or WAY before Lace??

[sinful nimbus]

Not really any info regarding that

[twilit crest]

Yes

Makes sense if you see lace’s dialogue with phantom

[graceful grail]

Could phantom have been created before GMS was put to sleep by the weavers??

[gentle aspen]

weavers binding abilities seems different to hornet binding crests

[twilit crest]

She approaches phantom like a child asking their oldest sibling why mom doesn’t love them

[gentle aspen]

same methodology but Hornet’s malleable nature allows her to do both

[stray fog]

Would gms want a replacement daughter when the Weavers hadnt betrayed her yet

[gentle aspen]

yeah

the weavers weren’t the perfect daughters she had in mind

[sinful nimbus]

She's not above discarding her previous daughters once she creates a new one (Phantom )

[gentle aspen]

too much apparent autonomy

[twilit crest]

We don’t actually know the reason phantom was discarded. All we can do is speculate

[stray fog]

I wonder why hornet has such a "malleable nature"
Neither herrah nor pk are known to be like that

[gentle aspen]

the guy who transformed doesn’t have a malleable nature?

[twilit crest]

Pk represents hornet’s capacity for power I guess

[stray fog]

Its a bit different from hornet changing crests

[fresh badger]

I mean PK changed from a massive wyrm to a king

[gentle aspen]

being able to change your body as you see fit is very similar to being able to change your soul/personality as you see fit

[fresh badger]

Thats pretty malleable

[twilit crest]

Idk. Feels too literal.

[graceful grail]

Idk, maybe phantom was a sort of Prototype before making Lace. Gms saw her error of letting phantom grow out of being a child and rectified the situation after.

[twilit crest]

And failed even at that. What a loser boomer.

[graceful grail]

Gms diddnt seem to think she failed making lace, seeing how much she rly cares even when lace betrayed her.

Serious lack of communication between them…

[twilit crest]

What makes you say that

[graceful grail]

GMS protecting lace in the void sea so she wouldnt die

[twilit crest]

I don’t see the connection between gms generally caring for lace as a parent and gms thinking she succeeded in creating lace

[graceful grail]

She diddnt create another child. And its been a while since the weavers have been gone so its reasonable that lace could have many years of being a child

[terse warren]

Im not fully sure since Eva doesn't manifest as a Crest but still gives an ability

I don't know if the Weavers actually intended for someone to eventually take their abilities

For all we know they just died

[gentle aspen]

read the next message

[gentle aspen]

I mean…

their dialogue is like

[stray fog]

• they hoped for someone of silken strength to defeat gms in the future
• if they are dead, then the message they give hornet has to be pre recorded. So they planned for a weaver descendant to free them from gms

[gentle aspen]

We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free

Daughter of a distant land...
We who remained have waited long...
Bind our strength to yours...
Reclaim the future of our haunted kingdom..

[terse warren]

Minor formatting mistake GG I win

[gentle aspen]

they’re dead but their minds survived in some manner

common HK instance

idk what the fuck first sinner’s problem is

can’t just give us the fuckin thing

“I need more aura than the rest Hornet please”

[stray fog]

Shes salty

[gentle aspen]

“My dome is kinda cracked”

[terse warren]

I agree with this part which is also kinda proven by First Sinner as it is a dream fight so she would have to be kinda alive, same way as Khaan or Nyleth

However since they're kinda alive it would mean the message isn't pre-recorded

And so there is a chance that the Weavers could feel that their abilities could be taken by Hornet

Meaning that technically it is fully possible for the Healing Bind to be the normal ability and for the Crest/Ability Bind to be Hornet's thing

Checkmate atheists

[gentle aspen]

I mean I said crest binding was hornet only

[stray fog]

The first sinner does an ability bind, right?

[gentle aspen]

Ability binding probably isn’t

[stray fog]

Rune rage is a bind

[terse warren]

No?

Ability Bind as in steal other abilities

[stray fog]

Oh

My bad

[gentle aspen]

wdym steal

hornet’s not a snitchbug

She doesn’t steal

[terse warren]

You're probably right but the Hornet uniqueness being only the Crest binding rather than the full binding feels ehhh to my brain so I disagree

[terse warren]

I can tolerate Wardenfly racism but I draw the line at theft

[gentle aspen]

yes

[sinful nimbus]

WTF?

[terse warren]

True she's actually defiling graves and robbing them

[terse warren]

Is this Hornet is Void 2.0

[stray fog]

Shes black here so she must be void /s

[gentle aspen]

snitchbugs are thieves star

we know this

[sinful nimbus]

i- i can't with this right now, i'm sorry-

[gentle aspen]

grindle is “one of the good ones” as they say

[blissful harbor]

am i witnessing snitch bug racism

[whole holly]

i think Hornet has version of bind where binding crests is unique to her, and GMS, but it is still possible that message is prerecorded even if first sinner is kind of alive(she seems to be memory though because she doesn't kill us, it results as failed bind, she is powerful weaver)

[terse warren]

Elite ball knowledge

[terse warren]

"It's not racist if it's true" - @gentle aspen 2025

[gentle aspen]

I did not say this

I only said that the snitchbugs are thieves

vagabonds

scoundrels, even

[terse warren]

Is it even toeing the line anymore

[whole holly]

but it is possible she inherited some version of wyrm nature that allows her to have multiple crests, maybe weavers would have binded architect crest as craftbind ability and that's what twelfth architect was trying to do because she isn't aware of hornet's malleable nature to be multitude within single shell

she can't read hornet's nature of having multiple crests but she still let's hornet bind architect, only knowing that she is part weaver

[terse warren]

!wiki twelfth architect

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Twelfth_Architect

Hollow Knight Wiki

Twelfth Architect

Twelfth Architect is a Merchant in Hollow Knight: Silksong. It sells wares at its shop in the Underworks in exchange for Rosaries and Craftmetal.

Location

Underworks

Role

Merchant

Affiliations

Weavers (Former superiors)
Architects (Member)

Aliases

Master (Hornet)
Maker (self)

Gender

Genderless

Singing

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/File:Twelfth_Architect_Sing.ogg

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/File:Twelfth_Architect_Sing_02.ogg

[whole holly]

oh nevermind: **Hornet: Master, I have communed with the shrine above. Your learnings are unique, techniques born of cogwork hearts. Their mastery will require some commitment on my part.

Bug-Red, you are the first organic shell to fuse our memories. S-s-s-such behaviour, my line would have believed improbable-impossible.
Still, your broad arsenal did suggest strong affinity with the m-m-m-mechanical craft, enough to allow access to our thought-store.
Hornet: Yours is an impressive skill, Master. I am grateful for the insight. **

i mean it could be that she wasn't expecting hornet to bind it as soul imprint rather an ability...

[eager flax]

do any of the bugs of Pharloom know of Hallownest? i dont mean know hornet is from a "far away land" but actually know the name hallownest or have ever been to hallownest?

[sinful nimbus]

The order to capture Hornet mentions the "kingdom of the White Wyrm"

If you mean the average joe though there isn't really any information on that but its plausible, Hallownest was well known enough in its prime to have attracted a lot of travelers n such

[low pilot]

The citadel does that’s where they go to get hornet

[spark valve]

Well
Arguably some of that attraction is from radiance but yes

[sinful nimbus]

Not like during the infection

Ellina says people came to see the Pale King's palace

[spark valve]

Like specifically from abroad?

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah pretty sure let me double check

[spark valve]

I guess elderbug says dirtmouth used to be bustling but that could be as much to do with the mines as anything else

[sinful nimbus]

"In the golden age of the kingdom, visitors came from far and wide to set eyes upon the king and his shining palace"

[spark valve]

Hmmmm

[sinful nimbus]

No one tell them the king was reclusive🥀

[spark valve]

Not really decisive either way I guess, maybe Ellina wouldn’t consider the bounds of the region far and wide

[sinful nimbus]

Or maybe he stood in like a tower all day for people to see their glorious kinglight

[gentle aspen]

Much like the grand lighthouse below, stifling the writhing of the dark

The kingdom’s light shone, blasting away the darkness of simple mindedness

truly beautiful

[spark valve]

Yap

[gentle aspen]

tammo when sentences are longer than 5 words

[spark valve]

That too many words

[gentle aspen]

tammo when too much word

[spark valve]

The throne room seems a bit conspicuously windowless

But ofc pk was so bright it would hurt he’s not just gonna walk around near subjects that would be a huge annoyance for everyone

Love when I’m going about my day and the god king walks past blinding me

[blissful harbor]

could he not control his brightness like a lamp

[gentle aspen]

so you willingly dim your aura just to make sure peasants can withstand it?

I thought you better than that

[blissful harbor]

if i’m a king and these are my people, yes
you saying youre gonna be an asshole king

[gentle aspen]

absolutely

[spark valve]

This is silksong lore and according to silksong lore we all would

[sinful nimbus]

Void vines are covering the windows up

[sinful nimbus]

If they enter the palace grounds they're expecting it

Its like watching a solar eclipse

[whole holly]

you shouldn't look at eclipse directly, maybe same is true for Pale King

[sinful nimbus]

They have special glasses

[whole holly]

lol, for Pale King?

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

From Millibelle's manufacturer

[twin dragon]

Would grand mother silk be glowing like that aswell?

in theory she should

[whole holly]

i wish we got to meet another Wyrm, Pale one is kinda boring, dead and pale....

[whole holly]

She has Pale Glow but i don't think she is as bright as Pale King

[twin dragon]

I mean she's weak as shit and still really bright

I assume she'd glow way more in her prime

[whole holly]

Fayforn also has visible glow and in-game her glow is acknowledged

[whole holly]

okay...

[whole holly]

Purple Wyrm would be cool

[heavy gyro]

GMS should've been a silkwyrm

[twin dragon]

another wyrm

we didn't even get blackwyrm

[whole holly]

i guess, i thought of that too, but that's okay, it is not creative to make another Pale Being a Wyrm

[whole holly]

only thing we know about Blackwyrm is single line of text, Battle of Blackwyrm, i don't think it is that significant

i don't think if Blackwyrm was actually wyrm would it be named that way because name White Wyrm has space in between title, and Blackwyrm could be place

[twin dragon]

Why namedrop if not gonna be relevant for anything

[sinful nimbus]

Flavor text

[twin dragon]

like it sounds super important to hallownest's history n stuff

fucking

[sinful nimbus]

"Knotted Grove" and "The Champions Call" are also namedropped in the same entry

[twin dragon]

"blackwyrm"

[twin dragon]

Champion's call, was infact, a future prediction made by team cherry to the pale court mod

Greyroot is a root thingy yeah

[whole holly]

Knotted Grove is prolly related to Isma and Champion's Call maybe related to Pure Vessel?

[twin dragon]

A parasitic one

[whole holly]

yeah

[twin dragon]

We don't know ANYTHING about it besides the name

[sinful nimbus]

Isma vs Nyleth 🗣️

[whole holly]

yeah ik

[whole holly]

that seems fun, lol

[eager flax]

wrong chat

[twin dragon]

Both seem important but have little to them

[whole holly]

nope, Nyleth has divine power

[twin dragon]

Ig nyleth has more

[gentle aspen]

She doesn’t

the old hearts are all mortal

[sinful nimbus]

Isma was better

Nyleth "lore" is literally just a callback to Isma

[whole holly]

sorry, powerful presence

[spark valve]

I mean it uh shows isma’s grove will keep growing

[sinful nimbus]

Give me The Voice or give me death

[spark valve]

Seth lore is cut star it’s time to accept that

[whole holly]

Isma has no lore other than being Five Great Knight and Grove creator...

[whole holly]

i agree with that

[gentle aspen]

star

I understand your pain

trust me

[whole holly]

it's like saying Greyroot is callback to White Lady

[sinful nimbus]

Nyleth is also just Grove creator

[gentle aspen]

but it’s time to let go

[sinful nimbus]

Greyroot actually has unique lore

Tammo and Joker you were supposed to hate on Act 3 lore with me

What changed

[spark valve]

Nothing

[stray grove]

Hello

[spark valve]

Just hate it for what it is not for what it could have been

[whole holly]

so does nyleth, we don't see importance of isma's grove unlike shellwood

[twin dragon]

Isma has barely any

[stray grove]

Star this is getting old

[sinful nimbus]

What unique lore does Nyleth have dawg

[whole holly]

Shellwood is bigger than Isma's Grove

[stray grove]

There are plenty of reasons to dislike Act 3

[sinful nimbus]

Explain what lore Nyleth has King

[twin dragon]

retire

[stray grove]

None at all

[sinful nimbus]

The lack of worldbuilding is a legit problem 🥱

[spark valve]

Uuuuh being a steward of her woods and not just their source even if she just isn’t doing it now

[stray grove]

Let’s hate the lack of worldbuilding then

[sinful nimbus]

Eh

[twin dragon]

Something something treaty with the citadel and she grew out into shellwood

[sinful nimbus]

What do you think I'm doing vro

[stray grove]

Don’t hate act 3 because TC didn’t canonize the headcanons you made up based on one line

[sinful nimbus]

What

[whole holly]

having deal with citadel, being old heart and she is actually important unlike flopsma "Chapel Maid: We'd heard the Citadel once made grudging accord with that creature, sent their servants in reverence, even built a shrine up there somewhere. Maybe it's worth you searching for it? "

[spark valve]

Ok but first sinner should’ve been the final boss

[sinful nimbus]

Why are we reading into the throwaway voice comment instead of my main point

[timber pond]

I thought she dead though and we were just tapping into the corpse. Said corpse being, wood of shellwood.

[stray grove]

I just got here

[spark valve]

Because we hate you

[gentle aspen]

well she’s not dead

[stray grove]

But yes because we hate you

[gentle aspen]

only when they die would the areas they have dominion over would fall

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway the deal with the Citadel is meh

[timber pond]

Then why is there a statue to honor her memory lol

[gentle aspen]

Nyleth’s probably in some sort of weakened/dying state a la Unn

[gentle aspen]

Idk man why was there a statue to honor thk’s memory

[whole holly]

i assume she is petrified/inactive like Isma

[sinful nimbus]

Not really an interesting "character" at all, Isma had novelty going for her

[timber pond]

Sister splinter already belives that her dominion is gone anyway. And talks like she killed her

[stray grove]

“Novelty” lmao pack it up

[gentle aspen]

if she were dead, shellwood would be dead as well

[sinful nimbus]

What?

[spark valve]

That’s about Isma genius

[twin dragon]

bromance with ogrim

[sinful nimbus]

Don't be hostile

[whole holly]

i don't think so, i think is in similar state as isma

[edgy nebula]

sister splinter says nyleth is sleeping, i assume she’s probably in some hibernation

[sinful nimbus]

Its just romance

[stray grove]

You heard it here folks character with no lore is better than character with no lore because not having any lore was novel

[edgy nebula]

or maybe shes lowkey just dead

[gentle aspen]

a la Unn

[twin dragon]

We don't get to see that unfortunately

[sinful nimbus]

Say the line readingcomprehensionjak

[edgy nebula]

well unn isnt sleeping

[twin dragon]

because isma cultivated moss in the sewers

[edgy nebula]

she comes up to greet us and is actively calling to a moss knight

[timber pond]

Then why does sister splinter say she usurped her position bassicaly

[spark valve]

Hollow knight fans can’t read

[gentle aspen]

mfw “Ogrim, there’s no time” wasn’t some aura filled message Ogrim was just trynna make out before

[sinful nimbus]

Thank you tammo

[whole holly]

Nyleth was more revered than isma anyways, at least she is central figure of shellwood, isma is just one of five great knights(probably weakest)

[gentle aspen]

okay as someone who doesn’t agree with star’s points this isn’t one either

[sinful nimbus]

Nyleth has more importance placed upon her which is why its disappointing that she has the same amount of lore as Isma which is also recycled from all of Isma's lore anyway

[stray grove]

In the message I responded to Star said that Nyleth was uninteresting and not a character and that Isma was better because she had novelty going for her

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah?

[gentle aspen]

“Just one of the five great knights”

[stray grove]

I’m sorry be fr

[sinful nimbus]

Its cooler when you see it the first time

[cedar skiff]

hey guys

[stray grove]

Is that your entire point Star

[cedar skiff]

whats the topic of discussion

[sinful nimbus]

Can you read vro

[gentle aspen]

That’s like saying dwayne wade was just one of the Miami Heat

[spark valve]

Isma even if she’s not elaborated on is an interesting new thing

[edgy nebula]

star has a point but bringing up novelty is a bit weird

[stray grove]

That Isma is better because of her “novelty”

[twin dragon]

Not all, the similarities end at them being the origin of a grove

[cedar skiff]

is it nyleth isma parallels again

oh

[stray grove]

Which I don’t deny. And Nyleth is an interesting call back who builds upon Isma’s lore somewhat

[sinful nimbus]

That's... both of their entire thing

[whole holly]

Old Hearts are more important to lore than Five Great Knights, that's not debatable

[twin dragon]

But yeah, nyleth is a non character

[sinful nimbus]

Literally the same species

[twin dragon]

pulling shit out of your ass

[stray grove]

You can’t criticize Nyleth “because Isma did it first” that’s silly

[timber pond]

Team cherry just needs to add a memory of sister splinter order 66ing nyleth or some shit and then everyone will be like "Ypeee lore11!!!11" and be a happy little boy.

[spark valve]

Sure I think nyleth is a fun callback

[sinful nimbus]

reading comprehension devil

[gentle aspen]

you weren’t arguing lore significance you were arguing reverence or importance

[twin dragon]

Nyleth feels kinda there honestly

should've been clover dancers

[whole holly]

how is deal with citadel recycled from isma, nyleth is powerful presence, can isma say the same?

[twin dragon]

they fit the ruler thing more

[sinful nimbus]

The issue is that she has no lore and what lore she does have is recycled

[whole holly]

same as star ig

[sinful nimbus]

But also it is an issue that they keep bringing back old stuff like what are you yapping bout bro

[spark valve]

Welcome to act 3 have a look around
Anything you think of isn’t here unless it was in HK first

[sinful nimbus]

Bro probably thought the delicate flower was a fun callback

[stray grove]

So what exactly is the point here
Neither of them have much in the way of meaningful lore, this is more of an issue for Nyleth because the narrative presents her as having greater importance than Isma and it is a legitimate worldbuilding criticism but her lore being “recycled” is not a real criticism at all

[twin dragon]

Making a treaty with the citadel isn't something that isma did

[stray grove]

It’s not an issue here idk why you keep focusing on it

[sinful nimbus]

That uh doesn't affect her lore too much and the treaty with the citadel doesn't even make sense because of Seth lmao

[whole holly]

or being powerful presence

[stray grove]

You can focus on the actual issue with Nyleth instead

[sinful nimbus]

I did

[cedar skiff]

i think ismas more interesting due to most of the lore surrounding her and the other knights being sort of shrouded in mystery theres a lot more to talk about but nyleth sort of has a complete storyline and very straightforward lore so its just kind of there. but i like nyleth its cool

[sinful nimbus]

Bringing back old lore and barely elaborating upon it is lame when you can be making new stuff instead

[whole holly]

it does: Chapel Maid: We'd heard the Citadel once made grudging accord with that creature, sent their servants in reverence, even built a shrine up there somewhere. Maybe it's worth you searching for it?

[stray grove]

So then stop going on this random “at least Isma was novel” tangent that’s not a problem with Nyleth

[spark valve]

Nyleth is whatever just ignore the weird plot hole that is Seth

[twin dragon]

Seth is a genocidal maniac (headcannon)

[sinful nimbus]

The conversation started with which character I liked more

[cedar skiff]

out of all the hearts nyleth unironically has the most straightforward storyline metaphors and all

[sinful nimbus]

Isma was more interesting by virtue of not having anything recycled

[twin dragon]

Nyleth has nothing

[spark valve]

The hearts are all really straightforward

[stray grove]

Subjective don’t care

[spark valve]

Princes are the most

[edgy nebula]

nyleth has less everything

[stray grove]

That’s your opinion I think the callback is interesting too

[twin dragon]

Isma's there to give ogrim some characterization and make shippers freak out

[sinful nimbus]

Am I not allowed to have opinions

[gentle aspen]

no

you didn’t ask

[cedar skiff]

whats important is that what nyleth has works and is tied into the storyline in a way that simply, works. it works. the other hearts all have shit left unanswered

[stray grove]

When your opinions fall apart under scrutiny then maybe you shouldn’t have them

[cedar skiff]

well karmelita works well too

[sinful nimbus]

How does it fall apart under scrutiny

[gentle aspen]

honestly
Nyleth doesn’t particularly work
Like on a surface level they’re fine

[whole holly]

i think Nyleth is better character, as isma's character is her love affair with dung defender, nyleth is revered by citadel she is exception with old hearts, while isma is just another great knight

[gentle aspen]

it’s the barest of minimums

[sinful nimbus]

Its not an interesting callback because nothing interesting is done with the character and therefore by bringing back a random thing from the first game you make the world feel more shallow

[spark valve]

All the old hearts except the prince just read like shit they couldn’t figure out how to integrate mechanically or narratively

[stray grove]

They’re wandering seeds genius

[sinful nimbus]

OK?

[stray grove]

Holy rewrite

[gentle aspen]

fr

[spark valve]

Yes it was probably rewrites

[stray grove]

I mean Verdania also sucks

[edgy nebula]

that doesnt really change anything, we know isma was able to wander and she was the seed to the grove

[cedar skiff]

job done kinda thing i feel like. its not a revolutionary storyline i think khann takes the cake for being the most interesting one as him being a dictator has interesting narrative implications. verdania is also interesting

[twin dragon]

Unfortunately she's barely a monarch in her own right and has like, no foreshadowing at all

[edgy nebula]

all we get is possibly a name for them

[gentle aspen]

khann is just tucked away in a corner because “fuck you the citadel needs to be bad so we’ll get rid of the coral area”

[spark valve]

Verdania is fine

[twin dragon]

And most of the questions left by the old hearts are timeline questions

and that mostly applies to karak

[gentle aspen]

karm is cool but basically irrelevant and also can make hornet’s character worse

[stray grove]

Barely an area and why is it next to Craw Lake lmao

[gentle aspen]

nyleth is nyleth

[whole holly]

similarities between Nyleth and Isma are same as similarities between White Lady and Greyroot, they are just species, Isma is not more novel then Nyleth revered by Citadel

[stray grove]

They literally couldn’t even take the remnants of it out of its original location

[gentle aspen]

green princes are like
whatever

[edgy nebula]

karak timelines versus crustcrags

[spark valve]

It’s not an area don’t ask why it is where it is it got moved

[twin dragon]

I don't think she makes hornet's character worse

[sinful nimbus]

Why did they scrap the music aspects of Nyleth and Khann

[stray grove]

So it sucks

[edgy nebula]

music aspects?

[sinful nimbus]

TC really just hates coming up with new magic systems

[stray grove]

It feels completely disconnected from the world

And it not being an area is disappointing

[cedar skiff]

the one thing about verdania that i question is how the craws just know nothing of it at least they dont foreshadow it. bro thats your dead neighbour

[spark valve]

No??? This is such a nitpick to treat as deterministic in it sucking

[gentle aspen]

if you have three other old hearts and kill karm afterwards gilly asks hornet why she did it
Hornet just says “I wanted to prove my strength” or some fucking bullshit

[sinful nimbus]

Khann's "Choral Tower" and Nyleth's "Voice"

[edgy nebula]

as in like, music aspects in their story like how karmelita has her singing?

[whole holly]

she technically does through moss druid

[stray grove]

It feels completely disconnected from the world

[twin dragon]

I mean hornet kinda says "yo ur old as shit wanna fight" and karmelita says "bet"

[edgy nebula]

where was coral tower ever called choral tower

[spark valve]

My guy it’s a fading memory no shit

[twin dragon]

SInce something something rot and regrow

[gentle aspen]

that still makes her character worse

[sinful nimbus]

It feels disconnected from the world because VERDANIA ASSETS ARE STILL IN MOSS GROTTO

[stray grove]

Verdania is just there the location it’s in is arbitrary and there’s nothing going on with it as an area
There are better ways to present a fading memory

[spark valve]

Yes this is fucking stupid

[whole holly]

that is more fair criticism than insulting nyleth for being same species as isma and inheriting similarities from that

[sinful nimbus]

How does SS feel more rushed than HK

[cedar skiff]

i believe you are one of the people that likes how phantom is irrelevant gameplay wise because theyre suppoed to be "irrelevant". dude the same thing applies to verdania

[sinful nimbus]

ig HK had the hive

[stray grove]

Why did you ignore me when I mentioned that

[spark valve]

It wouldn’t even have been hard to just put verdania around there

[cedar skiff]

cherrypicking

[gentle aspen]

I mean, no? Verdania isn’t supposed to be irrelevant

[spark valve]

Because it’s a nitpick and not that important

[cedar skiff]

its a fading memory though

as tammo said

there are remenants of it that signal thos

green prince

[twin dragon]

I disagree

[gentle aspen]

It’s supposed to be dead and another eclampsia of the citadel fucking over other places

eclampsia?

[stray grove]

Eclampsia

[gentle aspen]

what the fuck

[sinful nimbus]

It doesn't fit with the past world either

[cedar skiff]

its in the memorium

[stray grove]

In the wrong place

[cedar skiff]

how so

[edgy nebula]

verdania would fit more in farmland greymoor

[rapid bloom]

[sinful nimbus]

Its a legally distinct Moss Grotto area that is wedged in-between what was once the Greymoor Forest and Far Fields

[rapid bloom]

Hold on

[whole holly]

wasn't greymoor a farmlands?

[rapid bloom]

What is this?

[spark valve]

I don’t know why they didn’t just put verdania dream access somewhere in wormways

[edgy nebula]

silksong lore discussion

[rapid bloom]

It was, a very fertile land

[sinful nimbus]

That probably looked like Wisp Thicket

[rapid bloom]

Karak

[edgy nebula]

Karak was a thriving landscape, fresh water flowed from the river at the top of their Coral Tower and their prophesied king ruled over his people, with his strength he was able to conquer around half of Pharloom, until Grand Mother Silk came.

With Grand Mother Silk's power, she elevated Pharlids into Weavers, and gaslighting them into being utterly devoted to her. With this new revelation, Crust King Khann likely felt either fear for his kingdom and rule, or true fear for the people of Pharloom. He sought to bring down Grand Mother Silk.

It is likely Grand Mother Silk knew this, as we see her "silken sight" mentioned a few times throughout the game. After this some time likely passed, with Crust King Khann becoming aware the other Successors wouldn't try to directly attack Grand Mother Silk with him.

Soon, however, she sent her kin to attack. We aren't sure what exactly happened, but it is likely the Weavers scoured Mount Fay and froze Karaks water source, in time drying the kingdom, leaving it to be forgotten by the rest of Pharloom, despite the rich history surrounding it.

i originally wrote this for a huge copypasta about loving crust king khann but its lowkey pretty fire so im posting it here

[cedar skiff]

verdania feels a lot like the hive to me

vibes wise

[edgy nebula]

there

[gentle aspen]

holy wall

[stray grove]

Well it contributes to the overall experience of act 3
Verdania feels disconnected as do all of the other hearts and mechanically and narratively leaves much to be desired, the dream is a shitty area and I don’t like how it’s handled

[whole holly]

Farm lands don't tend to retain aspects of natural ecosystem, it would be inbetween wisp thicket and far fields

[gentle aspen]

in the sense that both were moved from their original spaces

[whole holly]

if it was not farmlands that it

[gentle aspen]

the hive was fine with the move

Verdania wasn’t

[spark valve]

The overall experience of act 3 is lame

[stray grove]

And Verdania is part of that lameness

[spark valve]

But verdania as a dream is solid

[edgy nebula]

i feel like if we get a dlc which expands old heart lore itd be great

[spark valve]

It’s the shit around it that’s rough

[stray grove]

It BEING a dream is fine

[edgy nebula]

for such influential characters we really get nothing

[stray grove]

Are you telling me the dream is solid

[spark valve]

Also the boss fight is lame

Both of them

[rapid bloom]

It is an interesting take, to say that GMS sent the Weavers to freeze the water source

[spark valve]

The execution is bad

[cedar skiff]

i think the craws foreshadowing verdania would do a whole lot for it

[rapid bloom]

But my question is, how?

[stray grove]

The area and boss suck yes that’s what I’ve been saying

[gentle aspen]

what did the orbs even do

genuine question

[spark valve]

But verdania is like at least conceptually sound and cohesive unlike everything else in act 3

[edgy nebula]

it’s the only take that’s possible, it dying post citadel doesnt make sense to me

[cedar skiff]

i wouldnt have minded every other heart being like verdania

[sinful nimbus]

They help Green Prince remember more parts of Verdania because

[spark valve]

Gathering essence to construct more of the dream who gaf

[gentle aspen]

I CLEARLY GAF I ASKED

hoo

[spark valve]

Memorium having crabs means it didn’t dry up pre citadel

[sinful nimbus]

I GAF its a mid minigame

Verdania has nothing in it

[edgy nebula]

maaaan fuck those crabs

[stray grove]

I mean it’s also just there the concept doesn’t matter allat much when the execution is piss poor

[rapid bloom]

Because she seeks their hearts, but cannot find them

[spark valve]

It also has no reward because welcome to act 3 you do chores and get nothing

[sinful nimbus]

The reward is the Gilly Karmelita dialogue

[stray grove]

Yeah it’s a forgotten memory yeah it’s relevant to the main themes of the game I don’t care it feels and plays like it’s very out of place and it sucks

[sinful nimbus]

To an extent its kinda lame to do dream diving again but that's necessary I guess

[spark valve]

Then go play a better game man

[whole holly]

Act 3 needed less void, more song

[spark valve]

Sort of but in verdania’s case it’s justifiable enough

[plain gazelle]

am i the only one in this channel who likes silksong

[stray grove]

SO TRUE

[stray grove]

Act 1 and 2 are fine

Act 3 is a dumpster fire

[edgy nebula]

oh fatbrett made a new video

should we analyze it

[spark valve]

Who

Actually I don’t care

[stray grove]

The analyzing evil guy

No not that

Uhm

Deconstruction of villainy

[gentle aspen]

Isn’t this the dude who made a giant video on how gms is a deconstruction of villainy or smth

[spark valve]

Oh is it that one guy with the copy paste titles

[edgy nebula]

yes

[gentle aspen]

sounds like a waste of time

[sinful nimbus]

WHO UP WATCHING SHERMA - THE MAKING OF A HERO 30 MINUTES 🗣️

[whole holly]

i like it but i still have criticisms, in many ways it is better than Hollow Knight, but in many ways it is less cohesive and has inferior world building

[edgy nebula]

the forsaken child

[stray grove]

A deconstruction of villainy

[rapid bloom]

Oh yes, the Twisted Bud

[sinful nimbus]

Don't listen to that guy Act 1 and 2 are mid

[rapid bloom]

Act 2 lowkey cooks

[sinful nimbus]

Act 1 at least had hype moments and aura though

[edgy nebula]

better to talk about than just complaining about act 3

[stray grove]

Anyway as much as I like to complain and nitpick every little thing about act 3 it’s short enough that it doesn’t affect one’s enjoyment of the game that much

Star we don’t have to pretend act 1 and 2 aren’t good

Let it go

[rapid bloom]

Act 3 is not even mandatory

[sinful nimbus]

Well

[stray grove]

It’s over now

[sinful nimbus]

Ending a game is pretty important

[plain gazelle]

silksong surpasses hk in literally every way as far as i'm concerned, straight upgrade across the board

[cedar skiff]

we dont have to pretend silksong isnt good

[rapid bloom]

You can finish Act 2 and call it a day

[stray grove]

Yeah the ending sucks

[gentle aspen]

I don’t think so

[rapid bloom]

Why do you think Groal is so annoying??

[gentle aspen]

videos like that always rub me the wrong way

[twin dragon]

I like the ending but act 3 could've been much better

[whole holly]

but it has inferior worldbuilding

[rapid bloom]

He is made to be annoying

[sinful nimbus]

Its a completely underwhelming experience because it has a garbage ending in both story and gameplay and I can't really say I'm too attached to the game because of it

[plain gazelle]

i disagree

[rapid bloom]

So it tests you

[gentle aspen]

he’s an individual who had their home ruined by the Citadel

[somber smelt]

I strictly think it’s a better game than hollowknight, though I definitely want some harder fights but I know that’s a dlc thing

[gentle aspen]

if you aren’t annoying after that you’re not a person

[plain gazelle]

not too attached to the game
posts in a discord about niche game lore every day

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah I like the community

I just don't play Silksong very often

[rapid bloom]

I think he was kinda fun to fight tho, but the maggot infested waters were annoying

[edgy nebula]

groal is a cool character but he’s also pure evil

[cedar skiff]

i did not care for groal

[sinful nimbus]

I can agree that Act 1 and 2 are good though

[edgy nebula]

he strings up innocent pilgrim’s corpses and takes their souls because of his pure wrath for the citadel

[sinful nimbus]

Up until you need to end Act 2 anyway

[cedar skiff]

personally to me hes just sorta underwhelming but i like the concept

all the bilewater enemies have aura though i love em

[edgy nebula]

i do wish he was a bigger bossfight for how important he is to bilewater

[cedar skiff]

not the flies)

[somber smelt]

I did that naturally by just playing the game so to me it felt amazing

[cedar skiff]

i wish he was a better boss fight

[sinful nimbus]

The parts of the game Silk and Soul requires you to engage with uh aren't very fun

[cedar skiff]

tc said bilewater and groal are like the final test before act 3 but its just sort of whatever man

[edgy nebula]

if my city spilled oil in my water i too would steal my neighbors skin and take their souls

[cedar skiff]

theres better ways to make a challening boss than gauntlet punishment water and uhh i forgot his other gimmicks

[somber smelt]

I do wish groal was harder, but not with that checkpoint placement

[sinful nimbus]

Bilewater lore 🗣️

[cedar skiff]

is this what the nerds call artifical difficulty or whatever

i like bilewater as a whole the platforming is fun as fuck

[edgy nebula]

on a second playthrough bilewater isnt super hard anyway

[limpid dock]

what exactly is the exhaust organ and why does it exist?

[whole holly]

it sucks though, Essence in first game was cool and different magic system, in second game Silk/Soul magic can do everything essence can do for some reason, why does essence exist in first place, and Silksong has no song aside Threefold Melody, it is not narratively equally important to Silk, which sucks, Silksong has just as much song as Hollow Knight

[edgy nebula]

exists to get rid of the citadel’s waste

[cedar skiff]

how does this even happen

[sinful nimbus]

sawtooth circlet

[cedar skiff]

oh

[rapid bloom]

Uuhh, why do you have that tool equipped?

[sinful nimbus]

Good without that equipped though

[limpid dock]

why is there an organ tho?

[edgy nebula]

the person who works the organ also plays an organ to do it for hype moments and aura

[rapid bloom]

That tool triggers the stinky ahh boll

[cedar skiff]

the clip would have been better if the spit registered and you just straight up died

[sinful nimbus]

TRUE

[edgy nebula]

how does the organ even dump shit into the citadel doesnt it just make steam

[sinful nimbus]

That can happen to you in marrow if you have 5 masks iirc

[edgy nebula]

or into bilewater i mean

[whole holly]

Silk as magic system sucks, GMS fight has inferior atmosphere to Radiance, it does not feel like i am fighting a god, just another boss fight

Radiance had better buildup and it paid off, she is so radiant

[sinful nimbus]

HK worldbuilding felt like it had more depth

[whole holly]

She is better boss

[sinful nimbus]

mfw Brooding Mawlek has more lore than Last Judge

[limpid dock]

it has to be played to deposit the shit

[sinful nimbus]

What's there with the Citadel is really good though its mostly the irrelevant stuff

And the magic system unfortunately yeah

[twin dragon]

Soul and essence connection isn't very clearly established

[plain gazelle]

i'm gonna be fr the word "magic system" makes my eyes roll out of my head, i don't think team cherry really cares about maintaining one at all and i'm glad

[rapid bloom]

Brooding Malek is just a creature

The Last Judge stood for countless generations

It witnessed a lot of Pilgrims

[cedar skiff]

gms is more effective when shes behind the curtains pulling the strings thats her whole deal radiance is a sealed dream god that is obviously going to be strong as shit when you enter the dream

[sinful nimbus]

HK had 3 main magic things though

[twin dragon]

The needolin abilities are also song believe it or not

[whole holly]

TC adding cooler overall atmosphere then taking away depth

[cedar skiff]

PULLS DOWN THE BOULDERS W GRAND MOTHER SILK

[sinful nimbus]

Essence soul and void were pretty well fleshed out you can call them something other than "magic system" but that's not really the point is it

[rapid bloom]

https://tenor.com/view/silksong-bellbeast-bell-beast-hollow-knight-hollow-knight-silksong-gif-9042676849871261244

[whole holly]

i know, that's not the point, it is frustrating Silk/Soul completely replaced role Essence had

[twin dragon]

I mean memories are still their own thing, js not with essence

[gentle aspen]

steam contains refuse in gaseous remains

[plain gazelle]

i don't think even once playing silksong did the thought pass through my head "wow this would be so much better if there were some dreamcatcher particle effects instead of silk strands"

[gentle aspen]

deposited into the waters it coagulates

[whole holly]

fine worldbuilding, but point still stands, it takes away established essence system for no good reason

[cedar skiff]

when the game about silk focuses on silk and the game about defeating a dream god focuses on the dream magic system

also yeah the term magic system sucks in this franchises context

[sinful nimbus]

Soul interacting with essence was in the first game

[twin dragon]

Essence isn't really relevant

[cedar skiff]

itjust isnt releveant to this one

[whole holly]

that's not the point, but memories are related to dreams, seer says so

[sinful nimbus]

imo the main issue is that silk is just soul and song magic has a whopping nothing

Those are dreams

[whole holly]

i mean neither was void but it is in game for callbacks

[twin dragon]

It's not one of the 3 magic systems doe

p sure

[sinful nimbus]

Memories are all dreams but not all dreams are memories

[whole holly]

song magic could have been similar role to essence, but they connected it to silk too, it this point just name the Game Silk

[sinful nimbus]

No they aren't

[cedar skiff]

i think song magic is presented well i like it. i like how the cogheart pieces are sealed behind a puzzle that has you playing a melody for example. i just love how the mechanical aspect interacts with the music in the citadel and i think thats overall what they were going for over having hornet hum a tune to summon pale nails over a mossgrub

like song magics basically sort of lost media anyway

in the citadel at least

[sinful nimbus]

Its all presentation

[whole holly]

it is not magic system but it is force used in magic, meaningless distinction atp

[sinful nimbus]

Song magic is a cool aesthetic but like it has nothing going for it

[cedar skiff]

how would you expand it?

[sinful nimbus]

My beloved shamans ofc

Old Hearts would also be a good way

[whole holly]

making song, soul and essence merged into silk magic was lame worldbuilding, since Silksong name imples Silk and Song are equally important

[rapid bloom]

It fell down due to the Conductors and their greedy ahhs

[stray grove]

Well said my friend

[whole holly]

it could have been incorporated into them

[whole holly]

thanks, you are blueprint

[cedar skiff]

song magic being sort of a thing that was important to pharloom pre gms would be cool. the weavers using the lands ancient techniques to seal her could have been auraful but yeah that rune playing cutscene debunks any of this anyway

[sinful nimbus]

It could be like

[cedar skiff]

what was the point of those harps for gms i guess we will never know

[sinful nimbus]

There's a piece of cut dialogue about the weavers tapping into the "resonance" of the land which could've been a magical element

[whole holly]

Song and it's magic does exist outside Silk magic and Silk instruments, but it isn't explored

[twin dragon]

Its a big thing for the citadel aswell

[whole holly]

i wonder if it is same type of resonance Godseeker talks about or song/sound related thing

[cedar skiff]

team cherry you have one job and it is to make a boss rush dlc NOT godhome and rather tie it in with the exploration of pharlooms past

[whole holly]

Citadel of Song felt like watered down gimmick

[sinful nimbus]

Lost Godhome

With Lost Radiance final boss

Echoes of Wisdom type gameplay where Shade Lord does all the work

[cedar skiff]

i never even thought about how much of the song in the citadel and related operations is just in machinery barely any of the actual citadel bums sing shit

[whole holly]

that would limit everything to past, and greater potential godseeker unlocks with focus wouldn't be a thing, just collection of memory bosses with even less lore

[cedar skiff]

godhome rehash would be lame as shit lets be honest with ourselves here now

im done with rehashed hk plotlines

[sinful nimbus]

this but drop out the "rehash would be"

[spark valve]

Too bad sea of sorrows is lifeblood infection

[whole holly]

Song is important to lore but gameplay doesn't reflect it

[twin dragon]

Mostly story relevant, we have js bells for that

[twin dragon]

It's connected to silk mostly

Not necessarily a bad thing

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but you don't fight Rad in a submarine do you now

[whole holly]

i mean it could be related to void, with lost versions of bosses, or plasmified, both sound bad

[cedar skiff]

ive changed my stance on needolin over dream nail i think needolin is just as fun and expressive as dream nail. not being to needolin something is just as if not more indicative of something than dream nailing an enemy and getting "..."

i like it when characters are shown willingly singing

[sinful nimbus]

NPCs singing is fun its a bit goofy that enemies sing imo but eh wtv

[whole holly]

it is inherently lame and lazy thing, because song along with essence seem absent when they are part of the Pharloom if not the Worldbuilding

[sinful nimbus]

I think most of the needolin hate comes from the fact that its completely useless in moment to moment gameplay like idk what they were cooking

[torpid spade]

I don't think they're going Godhome. The majority of bosses have some sort of carcass that falls when they're defeated. Not each one, but enough to make me think the boss rush/refights will exist via Needolin

[whole holly]

gameplay doesn't reflect song's importance

[cedar skiff]

i had my doubts but im an open soul and that submarine leak gave me hope to it actually having interesting stuff

[cedar skiff]

yeah i wonder how theyll execute it. will it just be an update where one day you can boot up the game learn a new spell and backtrack to every single corpse at will or will it be more formal like godhome

[timber pond]

The lifeblood will still be at the spire. But ocean stuff would be inbetween

[cedar skiff]

obv getting access to said spells probably gonna be a big deal

[spark valve]

This is for nuu

[torpid spade]

oh I expect it to be the same song you use for the memories
probably have to backtrack to each but I hope they don't that. seems annoying

[cedar skiff]

ok yeah it just wasting silk is a shitty choice anyway

[whole holly]

Lifeblood = Infection; Song, Soul and Essence = Silk, Silk = Infection as well. what a lame world

[spark valve]

Whereas dream nail was a soul gathering tool 💀

[cedar skiff]

early game u cant even do most needolins fully cause u dont have enough silkhearts

[whole holly]

it's like everything is condensed

[torpid spade]

Yeah this is true

[timber pond]

Would you call microplastics a virus tho?

Thats what silk is in the context of haunting

[twin dragon]

Lmao the first game had an iffy connection at best with the 3 "magics", having a single element encapsulate most isn't really "lazy"

It works

[whole holly]

if they can be manipulated by some Plastic Higher Being same way my mind can, i wouldn't care about difference

[torpid spade]

Wait, where'd this silk = essence come from?

[timber pond]

But the way they do that is diffrent. Therefore the expirnce is diffrent. Therefore the distinction is worthwhile.

[whole holly]

it is limited and undermines entire existence of soul, essence, song and silk as well since it has no unique characteristics

[timber pond]

Like haunted bugs still have thier "Self" mixed in there. Infected bugs dont really

[whole holly]

distinction is not worthwhile they are diseases that have same end result

[timber pond]

Not really. Infection does not puppet.

It just makes you submit

[whole holly]

what self does unraveled has, and why is unraveled copying soulmaster and why is groal doing that as well

[twin dragon]

"no unique characteristics", it's all conjoined, it might look to you like that

Unraveled copying soul master?

what.

[timber pond]

Groal stole that attack from snail shaman and unraveled is mizzelo traped in threads of silk

[whole holly]

same difference, Hivemind controlled by angry woman in her basement

[cedar skiff]

infection and the haunting function completely differently though

also radiance doesnt have nearly as much control over her "hivemind" as gms

the real evil will be how they execute lifeblood as an infection

[whole holly]

excess amount of soul/silk's adverse effects

[timber pond]

Not really. Radiance does not care what the ones she infects do. Grandmother silk let's thing suffice thier task and uses them for purpose. As seen by her stealing back weavers with squads.

[whole holly]

what uniqueness does silk have that soul and essence can't accomplish

[torpid spade]

One of them has orange cancerous growths that explode and the other literally pulls strings which are cut when the creatures die,

[whole holly]

from gameplay perspective it is same, at least we had enemies who were walking infection bombs

[whole holly]

infection was gameplay gimmick as well

[torpid spade]

you're way too tunnel visioned on the mechanics
this is like saying a gun and a volcano are the same thing because they both have similar physics

[cedar skiff]

the citadel is essentially totally empty when hornet steps into it it isnt until gms takes notice and with intent puppets some corpses that enemies start jumping for hornets neck. the infection exists at all times and those infected are braindead husks that attack anything in sight unprovoken, the silk filled corpses have to be awakened by gms first

[timber pond]

The enemies in silksong are more competent because they function differently though so you are also wrong there.

Infection makes ziombes, the haunting controls skilled combatants.

[sinful nimbus]

Narratively and mechanically they are extremely similar

[twin dragon]

The unraveled is a pile of corpses, so hk invented piles of corpses.

[sinful nimbus]

Down to a higher being being the origin

[torpid spade]

anyways I'm still confused how is silk essence? I thought it was specifically soul and essence was mostly irrelevant in Silksong until act 3.

[cedar skiff]

gameplay wise they function basically the same but i feel like narratively they have some strong distinctions

radiance isnt using the infected corpses to do her bidding

[whole holly]

well yeah but GMS is more indirect in disease itself more direct in control

[timber pond]

Essence cannot be seen by hornet so we dont know if essence has any connection to anything in Skong

Dreamnail was like the last artifact anyone could use to interact with essence

[sinful nimbus]

Well she does when her bidding is "Kill everyone cause as much destruction as possible I hate you"

[timber pond]

If you weren't a Higher being of some kind

[cedar skiff]

also yeah gms isnt even responsible for the haunting per se like the only reason its possible is because of the microplastics

[torpid spade]

Fair. I think it has something to do with the Memories, though. Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and all that

[sinful nimbus]

She's taking advantage of a unique situation yes

[whole holly]

Dream Gate ---> Beastling Call, Dream Nail ---> Needolin, Ascended Dream Nail ---> Elegy of the Deep, Dream ---> Memory

[whole holly]

Myla incident, dream nail dialogue confirms it kinda

[cedar skiff]

the straightforwardness is admirable

[torpid spade]

wait are we talking doylist or watsonian here I'm confused
cuz like doylist wise yeah you're right it's mostly an excuse to give Hornet very similar powers to the Knight without breaking/retconing lore

[cedar skiff]

but yeah if thk was haunted as compared to infected the knight would be bones

oh my god imagine a lace fight where gms is controlling her like a puppet

like right above her

holy aura

maybe we need a godhome

[whole holly]

which didn't need to be case if needolin is song mechanic, but connecting dreams to song and song to silk is lazy

[cedar skiff]

who am i kidding wed just get lost gms

[spark valve]

Not more lace fights

[timber pond]

But we cant definitively say if that's the limit of what it does or if that's just what the higher being wants. Manifesting dreams into reality aggressively like that is probably a consequence and not intentional.

Like, If radiance had the haunting as a power, she would probably be way more constructive with her desires.

[whole holly]

it has lazy execution

[cedar skiff]

theres not a single lace fight that hasnt been fun 🤫

[twin dragon]

Hk fans when the narrative centered around silk is centered around silk

[whole holly]

that's true

[cedar skiff]

id have no problem with more lace fights gameplay wise but narratively itd get exhausting at some point yeah

[sinful nimbus]

Who up fighting fungified lace 🗣️

[twin dragon]

Please no more laces

[torpid spade]

Unsure of that song = silk connection. The song that trapped GMS was mostly voices, bells and a music box contraption. It's only related to silk because Hornet plays the Needolin, but that's not the only example. In fact we're taught the Song of the Deep by having the Shamans sing to us, and they don't have a single string instrument

[cedar skiff]

infected lace

ok but a haunted thk would be fire

[whole holly]

"Silk, Silk Silk, everything needs to be connected to Silk, and let's just condense existing mechanics and themes and give silk no unique identity aside from that"

[sinful nimbus]

While Mister Mushroom readjusts in the background, revealing the eldritch mycelium beneath

[cedar skiff]

great another infection

wait team cherry needs to hire you

[spark valve]

Mount Fay if it was cool

[cedar skiff]

theres no snow higher being mount fay is slop

[whole holly]

Threefold Melody yes, but outside that and Needolin, there is no Song that plays part in role

[cedar skiff]

no infectous snow

useless game

[sinful nimbus]

Always bet on fayforn old heart

[whole holly]

lol

[timber pond]

Mabye we misunderstand "Higher being" . If feyforn can evolve to that point, mabye HBS dont start that way.

[whole holly]

what makes Silk unique other than fact that GMS is source of it?

[cedar skiff]

fayforn seriously could have just replaced nyleth and it would have had the same effect. the citadel gondolas can be explained by the citadel making a deal with nyleth for it to be chill with the slab or smth

and give seth a nice warm winter coat

[timber pond]

It can be applied to a wide veraity of spells and be used as a source of power independent of silk herself

As seen in hollow knight

Infection cant

[torpid spade]

how are you asking this
in game lore? real life gameplay?

[sinful nimbus]

fayforn not being a fight is so sad 😔

[whole holly]

that's possible, i mean divine power and status can be attained if you are capable enough, nothing is stopping Fayforn

[cedar skiff]

i mean think of it though it would have worked as a nyleth stand in and been more effective since its foreshadowed

[timber pond]

Irl gameplay hornet be like:

[whole holly]

but other forces have that too, Soul, Essence etc.

[sinful nimbus]

Like there's a tablet going "Yeah she might kill you if you're unlucky", big cinematic climb, Citadel corpses strewn leading up to the tuning fork, play your needolin, big scream. Double jump.

[whole holly]

Pure Vessel uses Runes

[twin dragon]

The dies irae bell shrines are also song

[whole holly]

both i guess?

[torpid spade]

Fayforn is freaky enough to make the Weavers question it. if it turns out to be some old heart or unn higher being thing I wouldn't be surprised. glad its chill as fuck

[twin dragon]

Fuck would the fight be

[whole holly]

Bells don't do much, not what we see at least

[sinful nimbus]

Big bird

HIt it with your needle

[cedar skiff]

flap flap dive

[twin dragon]

crawfather reskin

[timber pond]

Essence cannot be welded by mortal bugs and soul is not something anyone can just use. It has to involve a snail shaman it seems. Silk can be widely used by diffrent bugs.

[cedar skiff]

fayforn TRAINED the pinstress theory and thats why she goes to mt fay to die

[somber smelt]

It’s just one of those diving jerks that swoop like bats but even bigger

[whole holly]

that is one unique npc

[whole holly]

Soul Sanctum begs to differ, and Silk was most effectively used by Weavers, Citadel cheaply immitated them same with Shamans and Soul Sanctum

[cedar skiff]

there really is so much flying shit in sk

[sinful nimbus]

You can tie this into Vespa

[torpid spade]

if fayforn trained pinstress then it is partly to blame for the Citadel's success in subjugating the other societies of Pharloom. We should cancel the fayforn for this