sk-lore

[rare light]

ayo dumb question who the silk twins tho

[limpid summit]

I don’t think she was just hiding for years until she came out during the Conductor era and started killing people like Caretaker says

[gentle aspen]

Phantom and Lace

[oak palm]

Its kinda fucked phantom is optional down to act 3's ending cause you can just save all of pharloom with her still rotting away

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong timeline so good when you ain't got a lore user in ya ear telling you Cindril fled post-Citadel

[rare light]

thanks

[stray grove]

They wouldn’t necessarily know about her or be able to do anything to her and she probably wasn’t active in the period immediately following GMS’ sealing anyway

[spark valve]

I mean we know what type of mother gms is to have literally built lace to be unable to age they don’t really need more to justify them wanting to escape her

[limpid summit]

I read Cindril fled post Cindril

[oak palm]

What if cindril didnt flee and shes the bum weaver in deep docks

[limpid summit]

Wdym do anything to her

[stray grove]

Also if it was post Cindril the weavers had already started scheming against her for good reason so like more justification wasn’t needed

[limpid summit]

They could 100% have bound her

[gentle aspen]

gms would be the type of mom to keep a 8 pm curfew on a 30 year old

[cedar skiff]

additionally phantom could have turned on her willingly which would make sense but also it just being gms misunderstanding shit and it being her own bullshit that causes her to make lace into an ever obedient child is more interesting

[spark valve]

If she had her way they couldn’t even be a 30 year old

[stray grove]

30 years old? Like, age? Like, Lace age? Discussion?

[oak palm]

Is phantom an adult or a child

[stray grove]

Child probably

[gentle aspen]

she’s frayed with age

apparently

[oak palm]

Ig yeah

[stray grove]

That doesn’t mean she’s not mentally a child though

[oak palm]

Yeah we dont really know but going off lace they cou;ld be

[stray grove]

She’s frayed with age because she’s literally falling apart because GMS isn’t maintaining her

[spark valve]

Phantom might be an adult she’s not immature and clearly is not the same as lace

[lapis creek]

i prefer to think that they were made pre sealing because it's more interesting if gms was fully conscious when she did these controlling things

[gentle aspen]

I mean

no

[lapis creek]

but i dont think its likely

[gentle aspen]

I disagree because she’s not said to be

[spark valve]

I mean yeah

[oak palm]

I mean she screams randomly

[gentle aspen]

And I think it likely GMS made her like that as a response to Phantom’s supposed failure

[stray grove]

We don’t know enough about her to conclude anything

[oak palm]

I guess those are more battle cries

[gentle aspen]

She’s like

Dying

[oak palm]

Vs literal child giggles

[oak palm]

Could also be agony yeah

[stray grove]

Phantom might be a prototype before GMS figured out the eternal child thing

[cedar skiff]

we seriously dont talk about the tank phantom is in enough lol

like gms did not make that shit

[stray grove]

It’s a bacta tank

Citadel have similar shit

[spark valve]

Somebody’s been sending her silk to keep her alive while she does her job

Could’ve also made the tank

[cedar skiff]

i really do believe this

[gentle aspen]

I’d like to think a weaver made the tank

[stray grove]

Baseless

[gentle aspen]

commiserations over their mother

[spark valve]

Could’ve been

[cedar skiff]

you cant make fun theories in sk lore because of baseless

[spark valve]

Eva’s in a kind of similar situation

[cedar skiff]

woke world

[stray grove]

Doesn’t matter who made it who cares

[cedar skiff]

why doesnt it

[gentle aspen]

The tank’s meant to be her body

[spark valve]

It is her body but it wasn’t meant to be

[gentle aspen]

he doesn’t like it when people exclude him during lore discussions so he gets uppity

[oak palm]

Im starting to think you police these things a bit too much tbh

[cedar skiff]

the citadel making a totally useless location so phantom can aurafarm and leave them alone is so kind

[stray grove]

It’s not useless

[gentle aspen]

I mean it’s the citadel

[spark valve]

Eva’s in there because she’s too frail to leave it is a life support tank

[gentle aspen]

they aren’t exactly the nicest individuals CAN THESE MOTHERFUCKERS STOP SETTING OFF FUCKING FIREWORKS

ITS DECEMBER 28TH ASSHOLES

[oak palm]

Why are there fireowrks rn

Where youre at

[gentle aspen]

I hate florida sm

[oak palm]

Christmas celebrations on the 28th

Well i dont celebrate it soi idk

Baseless

[stray grove]

@gentle aspen meme in lore

[gentle aspen]

CMon man

[oak palm]

Wait alumni have perms?

[spark valve]

Ok bro

[gentle aspen]

sadly

[cedar skiff]

i felt like my point could only be sold through a wojak

[stray grove]

It’s ok I get it

[oak palm]

This guy is annoying brah genuinely who cares 😭 😭

[stray grove]

Yeah who cares

Anyway

Blackbarrens am I right

[oak palm]

This will go #nowhere

Trustt

[lapis creek]

why does hornet think lace is dead

in act 2

[oak palm]

Because she looked dead

[lapis creek]

when she didnt explode

[gentle aspen]

idk she goes motionless

[lapis creek]

like phantom

[gentle aspen]

that seems like death

[spark valve]

Hornet forgets about phantom

Literally

[stray grove]

Lace was pretending to be dead to aura farm

[lapis creek]

true

[spark valve]

She tells caretaker she’s never seen anything like lace

[gentle aspen]

I mean hornet doesn’t need to have fought phantom at that point

[lapis creek]

exactly

[oak palm]

Act 3's story is completely noncanon and does not correspond to events in the previous acts.

[lapis creek]

who wrote this

[stray grove]

Also Hornet takes her heart

[cedar skiff]

she learned that from trobbio

[gentle aspen]

tc didn’t really account for a lot of things

[lapis creek]

yeah but shes stupid

[cedar skiff]

i am dead serious about trobbio and lace having interacted

[stray grove]

Usually that’s fatal

[cedar skiff]

wait whats this baseless slop

never post again

[spark valve]

No but she can have

[stray grove]

Baseless

[oak palm]

How

[cedar skiff]

i just like the idea of it

[stray grove]

Har har har

[oak palm]

I mean they probably did

[cedar skiff]

she kept him alive because shes kind

[stray grove]

Yeah Lace is kind

[oak palm]

We know almost nothing about trobbio it's insane

Why is he in the citadel

[stray grove]

Don’t worry he’s DLC bait

[cedar skiff]

tbf you can do the entire game without even encountering phantom

[spark valve]

Lace has been around
Trobbio has been around
They may have spoken at some point by virtue of both existing in the same general area

[oak palm]

Kratt will lead the troupe

[stray grove]

Trobbio is gonna join the Grimm Troupe

[gentle aspen]

to yknow
perform

[cedar skiff]

exactly thank you

[oak palm]

Im sure he couldve set up a stage somewhere else

[gentle aspen]

there’s an existing stage already

in a place everyone wants to go to

[oak palm]

Why is bro in like genuinely one of the most dangerous locations to be in in current day pharloom

[cedar skiff]

and since its implied lace killed people walking through the citadel for fun it must mean she kept trobbio alive out of sheer sympathy

[gentle aspen]

shy do extra work

[oak palm]

Everyone is dead

[stray grove]

Yeah same with Blackwyrm and his disciple Hunter

[oak palm]

Or they'd kill him

[gentle aspen]

where is it implied she killed people for fun

[lapis creek]

i mean

[spark valve]

I’m gonna throw something

[cedar skiff]

caretaker dialogue

[sinful nimbus]

Hunter hasn't been in Hallownest for very long

Bad theory

[cedar skiff]

for fun is a stretch but she just did that shit

[sinful nimbus]

Also baseless

[oak palm]

Everyone is dead in the citadel due to lace most likely right

Does the haunting properly ressurect or not

Because then that means the choirbugs are stuck in like an eternal loop

[stray grove]

It does reanimate dead bodies

[oak palm]

But is it proper revival

[stray grove]

What is proper revival

[oak palm]

I feel like there are a lot of signs that point to it but the non haunted folk do not see it that way

[cedar skiff]

see this is baseless because it has no compelling implications like lace and trobbio

[stray grove]

They are indistinguishable from other haunted

[oak palm]

Most of your psyche should come back

[cedar skiff]

aww

[oak palm]

Their needolin dialogue suggests it's there

But they're made out to be puppets kinda

[stray grove]

All haunted have their minds enslaved but yes their minds are still There ™

[cedar skiff]

the citadel was wrong for putting phantom in the exhaust organ they should have been on the stage bruh

[stray grove]

She should’ve burned to death in a Deep Docks furnace

[cedar skiff]

why

thats baseless

[stray grove]

But it has compelling lore implications

[sinful nimbus]

She wants to go out in a blaze of glory

[cedar skiff]

wait thats good

[stray grove]

Yeah that’s the joke thanks for explaining it

[lapis creek]

does lace take damage when you drop her in the lava

[stray grove]

Yes actually

[gentle aspen]

Yes

[cedar skiff]

phantom is irrelevant because they were never meant to have any depth besides being team cherry’s elaborate musical reference

[lapis creek]

so shes not completely immune

[stray grove]

She also takes damage from the steam

[stray grove]

Phantom lore is neat actually and the fight is fun

Also the lead up to it is cool

[sinful nimbus]

No it ain't bruh

[cedar skiff]

it is really fun

[sinful nimbus]

Mist is the most annoying area in the game

[stray grove]

Hater

[sinful nimbus]

Fight is too easy

[cedar skiff]

also i give a lot of shit to phantoms supposed irrelevance but i do like how shes the optional second route to entering the citadel and how that’s executed

[stray grove]

She’s not irrelevant

[sinful nimbus]

Phantom is irrelevant cuz she was forgotten and discarded

[tribal thicket]

Phantom is so aura

[sinful nimbus]

Its mostly Lace/GMS characterization if anything

[stray grove]

She’s relevant because she’s irrelevant

[sinful nimbus]

Leave the explainjing to the pros

[stray grove]

That’s her whole point

[stray grove]

Lace yes GMS I agree but it’s not the main focus

[cedar skiff]

Its awesome when people recite the same point to fact-check a joke

i dont actually think phantom is irrelevant

but i do wish rhey had more screentime simply for my enjoyment

[sinful nimbus]

...joke?

[stray grove]

Jokes should be funny I didn’t laugh

Also nothing implied that was a joke smh

[sinful nimbus]

I don't come to lore to laugh at jokes I come to lore to laugh at the writing

[cedar skiff]

theres layers to this

[sinful nimbus]

this is a SERIOUS discussion channel

[gentle aspen]

if you want to imply something is a joke just tag it as /kirb

[stray grove]

And I come to lore to laugh at users like you

We are not the same

[sinful nimbus]

I was going to say I come here to laugh at the users but that seemed a bit too harsh

[stray grove]

Hahahahaha now THAT’S funny

[sinful nimbus]

Jerk

[stray grove]

No wonder they call you Joker

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway I think her ifght should be a bit cooler

Otherwise I like the atmosphere

Make the mist fun

[stray grove]

It’s as cool as it needs to be

[sinful nimbus]

Maybe for Silksong standards

[stray grove]

For the final boss of act 1 it’s at a fine level

[sinful nimbus]

Its a secret boss bro

[stray grove]

Not everything has to be Lace 2

[sinful nimbus]

It don't need to be balanced like that

[stray grove]

It kind of does if it’s an intended route into act 2

[sinful nimbus]

Also I didn't say hard I said cool

[stray grove]

It’s cool

[sinful nimbus]

for COOL players yes

[stray grove]

You’re just saying shit

[sinful nimbus]

Average joe is going to last judge

[stray grove]

Cool players get a cool fight what’s the issue

[sinful nimbus]

itws not cool

[stray grove]

They’re also rewarded with an extra silk skill

[sinful nimbus]

That's the issue

Genius

[gentle aspen]

It is cool
she has an organ
you go through an area filled with her wraiths to get to her

She is where you learn parry from

[sinful nimbus]

Yea how is that organ integrated into the fight

[stray grove]

The fight feels like a dance

[stray grove]

Steam pillars

[sinful nimbus]

The wraiths are the wqorwst enemies in the game besides aura

[sinful nimbus]

LAME

Song magic

Now that's tuff

[cedar skiff]

hornet after lifetimes of wielding a needle does not know how to parry

[gentle aspen]

she relearns it

[spark valve]

The mist has garbo enemies but is conceptually neat if not the most original

[cedar skiff]

disappointing

[sinful nimbus]

The spell isn't cool FYI 🙂‍↔️

[stray grove]

None of the spells are cool

This is as good as it’s ever gonna get

[sinful nimbus]

Gossamer Storm and Silkspear are cool

[spark valve]

Rune rage is cool

[sinful nimbus]

Wrong

[stray grove]

No it’s not

Rune rage also sucks ass

Never use it

[gentle aspen]

you mean old abilities

[spark valve]

Don’t care didn’t say it was good said it was cool stay mad

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[stray grove]

Not that cool if it’s unusable is it

[sinful nimbus]

Its as if TC stopped making cool stuff after the base game and hidden dreams

[gentle aspen]

honestly I lowkey wanted an ability that allows you to control enemies but I realize tc would never craft something like that

[stray grove]

Doesn’t even look that cool

PV had way more aura

[gentle aspen]

or fuck man maybe make silk clones

[lapis creek]

the mist is nice but it would have been better if it was completely dark and you couldnt see anything without your little green lamp. and if the wraiths catch you they blow out the lamp and you respawn at the beginning

[stray grove]

Spoilers

Star hasn’t played it yet

[spark valve]

I mean yeah

But

[sinful nimbus]

I've played it a bit

So far E33 is a great game but I haven't seen any green lamps yet

[stray grove]

Huh. Devs must not have had enough time to have ChatGPT generate those

[proper plover]

wait so, phantom is old? like doesnt the bestiary say smth abt they being older or smth?

[gentle aspen]

frayed with age yes

[muted lantern]

They seem to be withered from lack of silk, though they probably are older than lace if thats what you're asking, the seem to be a discarded prototype that wasn't up to gms's standards.

[lapis creek]

bro is keeping me in suspense

[sinful nimbus]

But here's the kicker

[spark valve]

But tc would never do something that cool

[proper plover]

wha? how? why isnt lace like that? so like, is phantom older than lace since lace doesnt seem to be "frayed with age" ?

[sinful nimbus]

Lace is being sustained with silk by GMS

[gentle aspen]

lace has a constant supply of silk

phantom does not

[proper plover]

hmmm i see

[spark valve]

Phantoms not just old she doesn’t have what she needs to survive

[gentle aspen]

lace is the favorite kid
phantom was the middle child

[cedar skiff]

what if lace doesnt have a constant supply of silk and has to kill the citadel bugs to get their silk spools to sustain herself

[gentle aspen]

no

[proper plover]

could lace want to be the one saving hornet all for herself (beggining of the game) for hornetrs ability to generate silk?

[lapis creek]

oh yeah i forgot ||you can use the sea of sorrow submarine to avoid the wraiths completely||

[gentle aspen]

she wants hornet dead because of her inferiority complex

[lapis creek]

star dont click that

[twilit crest]

Phantom is essentially prototype lace

The implied family dynamics are fun read sad

[proper plover]

tho, whjat did phantom do to not deserve GMS silk? cuz like, the old organ piano thing, still servers the citadel right?

[gentle aspen]

yeah
well first of all GMS and the Citadel are opposed until the haunting happens
second, we don’t know the exact details but considering lace’s creation Phantom probably wasn’t the perfect idyllic daughter GMS wanted

[twilit crest]

That would be a pretty big lore bit, not to mention plot hole

What we do know is that neither lace or phantom are perfect children in gms' eyes

[proper plover]

do phantom is not fully discarted i think? wouldnt gms just kill them once she noticed phantom is a wrong prototype? this weird to me

[twilit crest]

Lace was created with intent for perfection, but act 3 kind of throws that out the window

[oak palm]

She just abandoned them

[gentle aspen]

don’t see why she would

[proper plover]

fair point

[twilit crest]

We're not sure. We have no concrete reason for why gms abandoned phantom, only that she did

[proper plover]

hmm, then whats the porpuse of the exhaust organ?

[twilit crest]

Probably for being ugly

Phantom is a phantom of the opera allusion so idk

[gentle aspen]

It removes refuse from the citadel

[spark valve]

Exhaust. It manages waste produced by the citadel

[proper plover]

that leads to sinners road and bilewater i think?

[twilit crest]

So basically phantom was furloughed

Spelling is hard

[sinful nimbus]

All good I'm not playing E33 for the story lol

[proper plover]

by that idea, phantom works for the maintanence of the citadel ig

[twilit crest]

I heard the story is the one good thing

[muted lantern]

what kind of bug is this? it's the ones killed by shakras master

[sinful nimbus]

Miremite

[muted lantern]

Oh so it is, forgot about those guys

[wet oriole]

how to blur you text for spoilers??

||shaw||

[gentle aspen]

|| on either side

[wet oriole]

i got it

[bright python]

sandwich the text you wanna spoil with the two bars on each side

[gentle aspen]

but you also don’g need to spoiler text here

only in the help channels

[wet oriole]

k

[terse warren]

This is like going to Disneyland and only ever waiting in queue without doing any of the actual attractions

[drifting meteor]

is crust king cornifer

[terse warren]

No

[drifting meteor]

why

[terse warren]

Because that makes literally no sense

Mfw "no low effort/memes allowed" 🥀

[drifting meteor]

no but like they’re names both start with a c and look at both legs and arms they look similar and they both have some form of red so what if cornifer traveled lands to map more and ended up needing to train and get stronger to not get slimed in pharloom the got adopted and accepted by the hunters so he eventually became king and ruled

[terse warren]

Half of these just aren't even true

At least put some effort in

[drifting meteor]

these are very true you just need to put your mind to it

[marble oasis]

how is cornifer red

[spark valve]

his belt is red

[marble oasis]

You are having me on

[quartz salmon]

Based

[spark valve]

it's what passes for red in hollow knight

[marble oasis]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/hollowknight/images/1/1f/Npc_mapper.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20190405191530

BARELY

[spark valve]

look I'm not sayin the cornifer khann thing isn't stupid

but you asked how he was red

that's the extent of it

[quartz salmon]

The what now

[craggy smelt]

red-ish

[silk dirge]

what are we cooking in this chat

these crackpot theories be getting wilder and wilder

and thats a high bar for me i just learned the existence of nuclear jet theory which is the peak of crackpot theories

[granite grove]

Where is the skarr oprah house in the real world (karmelita boss room

[storm ice]

same area you enter the dream in but to the right

[rapid bloom]

I mean, Putrified Ducts and Bilewater

[torpid spade]

broke or bespoke: weavenests are made of stone quarried from the abyss

[golden summit]

isnt he like a mosquito?

nvm apparently he's a weevil or some shit

wait- why am i in this chat ;-;

welp ima skurry back to art discussion byeeeeeeeee

[torpid spade]

what is this, great weaver theory?

[edgy nebula]

do we think hivesteel is related to the steel city

since the finest hivesteel is called pale steel

[dire lynx]

no, i think its metal

[craggy smelt]

everything white is Pale
everything black is Void
everything steel is Steel

[twin dragon]

therefore most bugs are void

[craggy smelt]

or at least parts of them are

[heavy gyro]

All roads lead to steel city

[twin dragon]

and every metal from anywhere comes from the steel city

[craggy smelt]

but no, I don't think all steel is from the City of Steel
hivesteel is probably just some cool metal the Hive developed

[twin dragon]

I mean the void is technically dead bugs' remnants

[craggy smelt]

well

maybe

[twin dragon]

If wtv hunter said is true

or if it wasn't retconned

but we haven't gotten any other explanation so i'll roll with it

[craggy smelt]

hunter sometimes shares thoughts and insights in entries that he doesn't necessarily have direct knowledge of

he doesn't know about Radiance for ex., just speculates on the nature of the Infection

his thoughts in the Shade entry don't necessarily reflect a literal truth about the Void

just his musing about death

I do hope the City of Steel offers some new insights into the Void

[twin dragon]

Though he's THE guy that kills

i'd imagine he has seen enough

[craggy smelt]

anyway, I found that meme about honeycombs I was thinking of
the bees did this, but with metal

then they put it into a weapon

[twin dragon]

Judging from the patterns could be yeah

[stray fog]

No

Im the #1 steel city fan

So trust me

[rare light]

did the wyrm actually die and reincarnate into the pale king or did willingly transform into the pale king to appear like the bugs of hallownest because ive heard both sides and idk which one is right

[craggy smelt]

Bardoon suggests that those are both the same thing

This ashen place is grave of Wyrm. Once told, it came to die. But what is death for that ancient being? More transformation methinks.
This failed kingdom is product of the being spawned from that event.

the wyrm took the form of a king, but pale king is still sometimes called a wyrm - they are the same being

[rare light]

alright thanks i was just wondering

[keen raven]

snail shamans fumbled so hard lmao
one tiny mistake in their plan led to not only the complete fall of the citadel (good riddance ngl) but also every pilgrim in existence suffering horribly
pharloom went from dangerous to borderline uninhabitable

[twin dragon]

Actually it's kinda lace's fault

[keen raven]

it's hornet's, shaman's, and lace's fault all at once

[twin dragon]

Considering the shamans wanted to see soul fireworks

I mean hornet was trying her best for that, she didn't really know that the powerhungry old geezers were gonna release an ancient evil

[keen raven]

my theory on the haunting is that the more important you are to gms' overall directive and plan, the more free will you get under the influence of the haunting
as to why the citadel's armies are still somewhat minded because they're useful to her
and the haunted pilgrims becoming mindless because she has legit no use for them

also explains the fact we've seen higher ranking haunted bugs (signis and gron, last judge) being able to speak

and the written plans for not only hornet's capture, but the other weaver spawns too at the cradle

[twin dragon]

We don't rlly know why or when they were written

it could be the citadel trying to bring back the weavers as a last resort

[keen raven]

it was gms' plan to capture them in the first place, as to why lace sabotaged hornet's capture

the citadel under the rule of the conductors didnt really want anything to do with the weavers after they left iirc

[twin dragon]

Yeah, but there wouldn't be a need for the captures to be written

Plus they're old and covered in silk

showing age

[twin dragon]

Last ditch resort

Since the conductors fucked up massively

[keen raven]

theres a choral commandment for hornet's capture though
we KNOW the bugs that captured hornet were haunted

everything in the cradle is covered in silk because it's where grand mother silk is
not because the writings are old

[twin dragon]

Also the haunted bugs seem to keep doing the job they were tasked with

they're in a sort of trance

[keen raven]

i think it's a subconscious urge to follow gms' will, at least for the haunted citadel caste

[twin dragon]

Well yes, they're being pupeteered by gms

seemingly artificially recreating their life

with string

[twin dragon]

Not only gms's the other weavers that probably were consumed aswell

and that silk dates way back since nobody has been in the cradle for ages

[keen raven]

and all of the more informed npcs describe the haunted more like an enemy faction than a zombie outbreak
"all those weak minds strung up, in love with the great golden leech atop their lands" - green prince
"I've no love for that holy caste" - seamstress
"I'm not the one for fighting if those choirbugs and their pins come calling" - caretaker
the only ones who speak of the haunted as if they're zombies are the uninformed pilgrims who see it as mindlessness because they're being attacked on sight

[twin dragon]

They refer to the citadel when they're talking about some holy caste

[languid frigate]

guys if you think about it alchemist and his assistant are in prison since to meet them you need key and there is no key inside does that mean they been forced to do these experiments on lifeblood 🤔

[keen raven]

I don't think they're pupeteered corpses
the silk is stated to be made out of soul
the revival of the haunting is gms forcefully stringing your soul back into your body so you can serve her will forever

[twin dragon]

That's what i meant

She's basically doing some weird necromancy shit

with silk

[keen raven]

caretaker and green prince still directly reference the caste

[twin dragon]

Not the prince

the prince refers to the haunting

[keen raven]

"in love with the great golden leech atop their lands"

[twin dragon]

the citadel had an established religion before the haunting

[keen raven]

they worshipped the song and the citadel itself, not gms

infact the only ones who knew of gms being there were the conductors

[twin dragon]

That is still a religion

and that is exactly what im talking about

[keen raven]

oh and theres the case with the slab flies literally mocking hornet and dressing up as her
signis lecturing two lower ranking deep docks workers before the fight
I refuse to believe the haunting is true mindlessness

[twin dragon]

It's not

[keen raven]

theres a reason hallownest is described as "dead" while pharloom is described as "in decline"

[twin dragon]

It brings them probably to the state they were before death

[keen raven]

a lot of the haunted bugs arent actually dead

[twin dragon]

or wtv they were doing before

[keen raven]

the citadel ones are because lace went around killing everyone in there once the haunting started

she's legit just a troll 😭

[twin dragon]

Not necessarily true

the citadel has been silent for a looong time

bugs just died out

lace killing EVERYONE is crazy

[keen raven]

maybe the haunting was originally more like widow's version, where everyone is quite literally strung up and eventually dies

[twin dragon]

This could reference the haunting

[keen raven]

but then gms realizes "oh hey I have this entire kingdom at my disposal now let's make them all work for me forever"

[twin dragon]

Most of the haunted bugs wouldnt rlly benefit gms if they kept working

their jobs contributed to her sealing

[keen raven]

these two lines match up with some of the haunted citadel caste dialogue
the choir elder says "my soul... my shell. for you!"

[ember river]

The Haunting typically isn't as harsh as the Infection, though it can be at times

[twin dragon]

It's rlly not

It's something gms seemingly does out of instinct

when being asleep

Kind of like projecting her desire of worship

[ember river]

Widow does use GMS's silk to attempt to destroy Bellhart though

[keen raven]

yeah the haunted are still sentient, just forced to work for gms
meanwhile the infected are reduced back to primal instincts alone and have no higher thought

[twin dragon]

Not rlly destroy, but to offer it to gms

Which could be an indicator that widow is haunted

[ember river]

I mean, a bunch of people died

Widow isn't haunted

[twin dragon]

Well yeah

[ember river]

She hates the weavers that fled

[twin dragon]

She could be a gms loyalist

[ember river]

That she is

But that doesn't mean she's haunted

[twin dragon]

Yeah, but she's overly obsessed with gms just like haunting pilgrims are

[ember river]

They aren't really obsessed with GMS

[twin dragon]

she is

[ember river]

Haunted pilgrims are more like zombies than cultists

They as in the pilgrims

[twin dragon]

Check what eclipse sent above

[ember river]

Their reverence existed from before

[twin dragon]

The pilgrims never knew about gms

[keen raven]

this

[twin dragon]

not this

[ember river]

Then how exactly would they be obsessed with her?

[twin dragon]

the elder choirbug thing

[twin dragon]

needolin dialogues reflect how they want to be in union with her, offering their shells n shit

[keen raven]

"my soul... my shell. for you!"

[heavy gyro]

What about the stilkin, they are useless for gms yet they seem more sophisticated than the haunted pilgrims

[ember river]

I mean they were already worshipping something

[twin dragon]

they aren't haunted

[keen raven]

gms probably doesnt give a shit about foreign tribes

[twin dragon]

The citadel and the song

[heavy gyro]

They are

It's a common misconception

[twin dragon]

No string comes out if you hit em

iirc

[ember river]

They didn't worship the citadel, they had the citadel as a cathedral, as a place of worship

[keen raven]

it does

[twin dragon]

oh fr?

[keen raven]

but that doesn't mean they're haunted

[twin dragon]

usually it does

[heavy gyro]

Needolin also shows strings attached to them

[twin dragon]

Then they worshipped the song

[keen raven]

the silk is stated to be literally everywhere throughout pharloom
the air, the water, everywhere
so the stilkin probably eat meat or drink water with silk inside of it

[twin dragon]

only the high caste knew about the truth

and it was a really big deal to them seemingly

[ember river]

They literally have GMS's cocoon as their insignia

And source of all their silk

[keen raven]

also there was that one pilgrim elder who was trying to figure out what caused the haunting as he was haunted

[ember river]

The song was holy and yet it wasn't a deity

[keen raven]

they probably didn't even know what it meant

why would they worship a god just for it to be trapped on top of their lands as they harvest its life essence

[twin dragon]

Could be the sigil of the citadel, they could know that's their source of silk

[keen raven]

oh yeah

[twin dragon]

But not that gms is inside

[ember river]

Because they probably thought, or were told, that it was a benign god that granted them silk for all their magical tech

[keen raven]

they could know of the huge silk orb but maybe not of gms actually being within it
they might've thought the song kept the silk orb sustained

[twin dragon]

the high caste discovering that gms was inside was a big deal to them

[ember river]

Conductors aside, they probably thought the song was pleasing the deity, or that the deity was the cocoon itself

[twin dragon]

pontiff isolated himself away

[ember river]

More like the discovery of what she was actually like

[twin dragon]

I mean, the pontiff didn't know that they worshipped a cage

i assume nobody else did

[ember river]

Precisely, because they probably thought the song was a way of pleasing her, not of keeping her trapped against her will

And the silk was a gift or something

Not a chain

[twin dragon]

Though pontiff could be referring to the citadel

as "the cage"

[keen raven]

I find it interesting how the haunted caste don't attack ballador, but instead defend him from hornet

[ember river]

The citadel is a cage

[twin dragon]

Yes

that's why im saying that

[ember river]

But they didn't worship the fucking building

[keen raven]

the current pilgrims sure seem to

[ember river]

It's like saying Christians worship the Vatican

[keen raven]

"the citadel has chosen us to live a little longer!"

[ember river]

Because the citadel is also the administration

Who are deemed holy, but still not gods

[keen raven]

"the citadel has provided us healing supplies!"

[twin dragon]

The song is part of the citadel

The citadel is always referred to as THE holy place where everything happens

[ember river]

Yeah, the holy place, not the god

A cathedral

[twin dragon]

I mean sherma seemingly has no knowledge about any other god

and is probably ready to worship the thing itself

There could be a point where pilgrims didn't even know what they worshipped

they just went with it

[ember river]

No, he seeks it as a holy paradise, that's why he's rather displeased when he finds it all abandoned and filled with zombies

[twin dragon]

that's why most pilgrims climb it for

[ember river]

Because it's the promised land, not the actual deity

[ember river]

They also call the rosaries holy and a measure of faith and nobody would say they worship rosaries

[twin dragon]

I mean they could be worshipping the song

because they thought it was the thing that provided them with silk

there are no mentions of pilgrims worshipping the cocoon itself

[keen raven]

they aren't zombies 😭

[twin dragon]

They are

[keen raven]

the infection would be zombies

the haunted citadel caste act as gms' minions, not mindlessly wandering husks

[ember river]

Most didn't even see it, but the silk did come down from the cradle. I don't know if it was an unknown deity, or the conductors told them that the ball was how it looked like, or whatever, but they seem to worship the source of silk and build everything else around it

[ember river]

They are often laying around, dead, until they get reanimated

[keen raven]

you can attack some of them before they get up

[ember river]

Yeah, because that's how they're coded lol

[keen raven]

and if you kill them before they even fully get up they still yell

[twin dragon]

I mean they seem to worship the silk itself, not the source

[ember river]

There's no implication that they are just sleeping

[twin dragon]

Which i guess, indirectly, helped gms power up

through worship

[keen raven]

there's an ost called "sleeping citadel" that plays when you first get to choral chambers

I don't think they're entirely "just sleeping" but more in a dormant state

[ember river]

They did worship the weavers at one point, so probably anything that produced silk was divine to them

[keen raven]

even if they are zombies, they aren't mindless ones

[twin dragon]

Yeah, but significant reforms have been done since

[ember river]

The most substantial, that the rulers of the citadel now can't produce silk by themselves

[twin dragon]

The silk ball could've been seen as divine but they seemed to worship the material itself

[ember river]

So they must make up another story as to why they're holy

[ember river]

To me, silk was the gift, the song their prayer, and the citadel their temple (at least in their eyes)

[twin dragon]

They knew they had all of that

However they didn't know why

or how

[ember river]

Do keep in mind conductors knew the truth

[twin dragon]

This needolin dialogue could indicate that they're fighting in favour of the material

[twin dragon]

Not always

at one point they discovered it

[ember river]

Not when the weavers passed them a ticking timebomb and fucked off elsewhere

But they figured it out soon enough

[twin dragon]

Ballador seems mournful even

[keen raven]

the haunted are capable of writing plans, speaking to eachother and giving and taking direct orders
I highly doubt they're just "mindless zombies"

[twin dragon]

of gms

[ember river]

They're still zombies

Or undead or whatever you want to call them

[keen raven]

i guess you could say that but they aren't mindless

[twin dragon]

They're reanimated corpses

by definition a zombie

[ember river]

Keep in mind the Radiance didn't even want control, it wanted to erase the Pale King's legacy

She just reverted the bugs to their basic senses and instincts

[twin dragon]

She was hella furious also

Also where do grand mother silk's needles come from

we only see them in her boss fight nowhere else

[keen raven]

this server hates fun istg

whatever

[ember river]

She probably made them herself or something

She does have hands and probably a lot of time before she decided to set up in pharloom

[fresh badger]

I remember a post comparing gms's scissors to like other stuff hang on

[twin dragon]

They look like parts of her

[ember river]

To her bracelets

And the "legs"

[terse warren]

That's a weird way to say "died" tbh ngl

[keen raven]

could have originally been
she was sealed for so long we have no idea what she could've looked like beforehand

[twin dragon]

I mean gms is an amalgam of bugs

[ember river]

Died, or left, or whatever, I'm still confused at that part of the timeline

[twin dragon]

just like hornet

hell, she has eight arms

[ember river]

Because she's a spider

[keen raven]

no?

[twin dragon]

Could be

[ember river]

Though GMS looks more like a black human silhouette with 8 arms than a spider

[twin dragon]

Yes, weavers bound to her

[terse warren]

She's a spider the same way Radiance is a moth

Not really, but close enough

[twin dragon]

Because she's not actively displaying her 8 arms

[ember river]

Well, yeah

[twin dragon]

Probably changed her appereance just like pale king in some way

[ember river]

Higher beings are their own thing

[twin dragon]

to look more akin to bugs

[keen raven]

if hornet was so heavily nerfed by just a few days in a cage, imagine gms after being sealed for hundreds if not thousands of years

[ember river]

That seems pretty unique to wyrms

[fresh badger]

I misremembered 💀 it was a post abt whiteward needles

[ember river]

Unn seems to just be Unn

And White Lady too

[terse warren]

Ik just specifying wouldn't want to spread misinfo

[terse warren]

Well, she is a "Root"

Same way PK is a Wyrm

[twin dragon]

Im speculating

And i don't mind in the way that wyrms do

[ember river]

In any case, GMS still bears much more semblance to other higher beings than to common bugs

[twin dragon]

No shit, yeah

[ember river]

She's much more reminiscent of the Radiance than of the Pale King

[keen raven]

didnt pale king purposefully make his new form look more like common bugs

[ember river]

Yes, but Nubbie suggested GMS might have done something similar

Which it doesn't really look like

[keen raven]

yeah no why would gms even want to do that

[ember river]

Honestly I might have liked the boss even more if it was an agile, small creature with godlike powers

Instead of radiance v2

[keen raven]

by the time the kingdom was actually under her rule she wouldn't have needed a more bug-like form anyway
they're legit FORCED to serve and worship her

[ember river]

We kinda got that from Lost Lace and GMS comes right after fighting lace 2 so I understand why it wasn't so but still

[rapid bloom]

Who said that?

[ember river]

I mean, she originally wasn't going to haunt everyone

[rapid bloom]

There is no evidence GMS had another form

[ember river]

Nubbie suggested it

I said that's unlikely

[keen raven]

the citadel of stone was obviously a very different place than the gilded, fading one we see today

[rapid bloom]

She haunted everyone because the Citadel bugs put silk in their bodies to live longer, hence their DNA ended up becoming mixed with it

So they were victims to GMS

[ember river]

No, I mean she was just gonna rule as a queen with the Weavers as her angels/subjects/children

Kinda like the Pale King in a way, without flaying everyone's minds

[keen raven]

yeah and now she forcefully rules as a queen with the citadel's entire caste forced to serve her

[rapid bloom]

She always had only the Weavers in mind, not the Citadel of Song

That was created by the Weavers

She wanted to be worshipped as all pale beings

[ember river]

The citadel might have been her palace originally (which is pure speculation) but the actual citadel with its current purpose was conceived and created by the weavers

[rapid bloom]

Exactly

[keen raven]

the haunting is forced worship
the needolin dialogue of some of the haunted citadel caste is like
"my soul... my shell. for you!"

[ember river]

No shit an intrusive higher mind has grabbed their soul

[rapid bloom]

The Citadel laid bare and unadorned until the Conductors changed that

[ember river]

So it seems

The citadel timeline is kind of a mess though

[rapid bloom]

We do not know when the Citadel was at its peak

I thought of 3 periods

[keen raven]

the citadel under rule of the weavers would hate the citadel under rule of the conductors
the citadel under rules of the conductors would hate the citadel under the rule of gms (haunted)

[ember river]

I mean

[rapid bloom]

1. GMS reign and the creation of the Weavers
2. The rule of the Weavers and the creation of the Three Higher Castes
3. The start of the Conductors' reign

[ember river]

The weavers cared for one thing alone and that was themselves

[rapid bloom]

I think the second is the most promising

[ember river]

If the conductors painted it all in gold to worship them they'd probably be cool

[rapid bloom]

To seal GMS since they knew that no matter what, death was imminent

[ember river]

But that was for their sake

Because they wanted to rule as gods

[rapid bloom]

Okay, so
The Weavers did evolve from a common bug but

[keen raven]

the weavers left the rest of the citadel to deal with gms' petty and control-freakish nature

[rapid bloom]

They ascended closer to godhood than they might have thought

Their intelligence is unmatched in all of the Hollow Knight world

[ember river]

I mean

[rapid bloom]

(I did not count the Pale King because he is a pale being)

And a Wyrm

And has foresight

[ember river]

Higher beings aside we got the Steelhearts, of knowledge unkown, the mask makers, Bardoon, and if monomon ever got near their level is debatable

[keen raven]

I wonder if the city of steel is still in its prime, or in decline like the citadel

[ember river]

They are also essentially powerless with Essence, which the Moth tribe could manipulate pretty effectively

[rapid bloom]

It's a lot to speculate about with the City of Steel

We know that it still functions to this day

But nothing else

[ember river]

Also the snail shamans! Those could also manipulate soul pretty effectively

[ember river]

That it also seems to have some fucked up order

[rapid bloom]

I kinda like how they made the Snail Shamans be tied to the Void

[keen raven]

hear me out on this

[ember river]

With castes and some mysterious masters on top

[rapid bloom]

That is something the OG HK never picked up

[ember river]

In the first game they were more tied with Soul than with void, there's an actual line of dialogue that indicates they never went to the Abyss

[rapid bloom]

So they sound more like a republic

[terse warren]

I mean I assume the Citadel of Stone is the one made by Weavers, also... That could very easily just be propaganda and not fully how the Citadel was?

[keen raven]

hallownest, long dead kingdom, medieval level tech, relatively chill society
pharloom/the citadel, kingdom in decline, industrial revolution level tech, oppressive society
city of steel, kingdom in its prime, modern/futuristic level tech, atrocious society

[ember river]

I interpreted their obsession as obsession with power

[rapid bloom]

Yeah so like, when the revelation came that they could do something with Void, people started speculating that they were the Ancient Civilization

[ember river]

Not really? I dunno

[keen raven]

one could only imagine how horrible city of steel's society is for someone to be willing to summon the void just at an attempt at escape

[ember river]

They can't do anything with void, they can't use it in their spells and needed a device and a lot of power to connect with a source of void

[rapid bloom]

Power is shared among a group of individuals rather than one administrative figure

[keen raven]

probably makes the citadel post haunting look like a wonderland

[ember river]

That was more teleportation than void mastery

[terse warren]

She haunted everyone because she can't be forced back to sleep this way

[rapid bloom]

Patriarchy
Matriarchy
Republic

[ember river]

A republic can be autocratic, and they can be a council of nobles

Republic opposes monarchy

[terse warren]

Calling Hallownest a patriarchy is crazy work tbh

[rapid bloom]

It would make sense for the City of Steel to be one then, no?

[rapid bloom]

I mean, I did not forget the White Lady, but most folks looked up to the King

They worshipped him as a god

Because he was the one that gave the bugs sapience

In Silksong, GMS only gave it to the Weavers

[ember river]

Autocracy (rule of one) would be opposed to oligarchy (rule of a few), democracy (rule of the many) and other such systems

[rapid bloom]

Alongside a level of intelligence FAR above anything we have seen, hence why Pharloom is a matriarchy

• the Weavers all being females

[ember river]

If the masters call themselves the "council of the iron kings" then it's not a republic

Or whatever

[rapid bloom]

They do?

[ember river]

No?

We don't know shit

[rapid bloom]

I hope not

Because it would screw all of the lore I made up 😭

[ember river]

But it's weird throwing "republic" in there

[ember river]

That's the wrong way to look at the lore

You can't just make stuff up and then expect the writers to follow up on it

[rapid bloom]

They won't

[ember river]

I mean, we still gotta get Sharpe

[rapid bloom]

Regardless, I don't think they plan to cover everything

[ember river]

So there's a decent chance of extended steelheart lore

[rapid bloom]

There will be subjects open to interpretation

[ember river]

If you want republics, technically the Citadel under the conductors was one

[rapid bloom]

Like how the OG HK has

[ember river]

And maybe under the Weavers

[rapid bloom]

Actually valid

[terse warren]

Yeah but that's not what patriarchy means

[rapid bloom]

Kinda fun to see that only ONE of them is still living to this day 😭

[terse warren]

And tbh neither was Pharloom a matriarchy

[ember river]

Pharloom wasn't a monarchy because the queen didn't rule

You could argue it was a matriarchy under the weavers but not much else

Regardless, most political systems don't account for the existence of vengeful god-kings who can enslave minds

[keen raven]

that's actually a cool name lol

[viscid ridge]

Both pharloom and hallownest are monarchies, with pharloom specifically reminding me of the british monarchy 🤣

[terse warren]

I made a typo but yes that's also true

[terse warren]

It was more about race and than gender

[ember river]

Yeah

[rapid bloom]

Lmfao, wait 😭

I can see it

Conquering everyone in sight

[terse warren]

I wouldn't say so since I don't think you could become a Conductor

[ember river]

They drive regions into destruction and extinction then put them in a museum

[rapid bloom]

(Minus Verdania which kinda failed)

[keen raven]

even under the haunting they still continued to do so
sending people out to capture weaver ancestors 😭
"you are guilty of your great great great grandpa being related to our god 😡"

[rapid bloom]

Cursed line ahhh

[ember river]

Probably not, but most Soviets couldn't get into the Supreme Soviet either and it still was a republic, no matter how authoritarian

That was my line of thought

[terse warren]

Keyword is most

I highly doubt that you could be a Conductor if you weren't born into it

[ember river]

It's so funny that the only place they completely wiped out was the one that couldn't be preserved either

[terse warren]

Seems to be a caste thinh

[viscid ridge]

To be fair its probably gms that controlled them to capture the half weavers as said by the envoy journal entry

[terse warren]

Karak

[ember river]

I don't even know if more conductors were born or if they kept living on and on and just got replaced when they died by something else

[keen raven]

yeah she's the one who gave the order to the caste to do so

[ember river]

It's not expanded either but it would be interesting to know how that worked

We kinda got that for architects and keepers

[terse warren]

I don't think they could have lived for generations

I mean if Whiteward actually was successful sure, though we're not sure if it was

[ember river]

There are still some surviving native species, Verdania's all wiped out, their species are extinct

[terse warren]

And we don't know if Whiteward happened immediately

[terse warren]

Mhhh point taken

[keen raven]

those dragonfly things from verdania survived
you can see smaller versions of them in the mosslands

[terse warren]

And the area in Memorium is also alive

[ember river]

Wasn't Ballador alive when the Weavers passed down the rule?

[keen raven]

I doubt that very much

[rapid bloom]

Could have been a foreshadowing to its destiny

[dire lynx]

whiteward has been around since the weavers

[rapid bloom]

But the Conductors did not live for ages, they were not immortal

[keen raven]

it seemed to have a very fragile and isolated ecosystem

[rapid bloom]

And we do not know how many there actually were

People keep saying 12 of them

[ember river]

Why 12?

[rapid bloom]

Because there were 12 Architects

They thought that

[ember river]

12th talks about the other architects as her predecessors

They lived before her

[rapid bloom]

12 Architects, 12 Conductors, 12 Pontiffs

[ember river]

And no, there's only one Pontiff

That's what pontiff means

That's also why the vaultkeeper says THE pontiff

[rapid bloom]

My bad, should have put /vaultkeepers

[ember river]

Not the pontiffs or our pontiff

[ember river]

We kill dozens of vaultkeepers, there are far more than 12

[rapid bloom]

Wait, so the ones with the claws

[terse warren]

Never heard anything similar

[rapid bloom]

Spiderlike

Are vaultkeepers???

[terse warren]

Source in this?

[terse warren]

The ones with the big hat yes

[ember river]

Re-reading the dialogue it's pretty vague, he could just be refering to other eras

[dire lynx]

there are silkflies in weavenest atla

[rapid bloom]

They look so much unlike Cardinius, what..

[terse warren]

Doesn't mean much

[ember river]

I think the silk extractor has been around since the weavers, pretty sure there was a line of dialogue supporting that

But I've kinda forgotten where

As in the machine having some other purpose originally?

[rapid bloom]

Probably so

[ember river]

Anyone remembers something like that?

[dire lynx]

how are silkflies made

[terse warren]

We saw them being made from the extractor in whiteward

[rapid bloom]

Souls of bugs

[terse warren]

But since they're clearly related to soul, maybe they were made some other ways

[rapid bloom]

"For Pharloom eternal"

[terse warren]

Also, there's some flying bone bugs in Weavenest Atla

Does this mean the Weavers made them too?

[rapid bloom]

"To serve"

[terse warren]

Like, they really could've just flown in

[dire lynx]

there are also slikflies in karmelitas memory

[rapid bloom]

The Weavers attempted to create a higher being to beat GMS, but why would they create other life forms?

[ember river]

Eva wasn't made to beat GMS

She was made as an attempt to reproduce

[terse warren]

I'm p sure she was

An attempt to contrast GMS with another God

[ember river]

I thought that too but the only mention in her dialogue was that she was sought as a way to circumvent their limits on reproduction

[terse warren]

One of the many attempts of the Weavers do defeat their God

[rapid bloom]

They tried techs

[terse warren]

Mhhhh maybe I'd have to reread

[rapid bloom]

They tried creating someone that could beat GMS

[dire lynx]

"Hide her deep, the despised child, our shame shown in shell of iron. She is a wish cast vain, divinity mimicked in form too frail."

[terse warren]

But I also doubt she would've been in a Weavenest if she was made after GMS

[rapid bloom]

They sought ways to end her for good

When they failed, they imprisoned her instead

[terse warren]

Nvm ig that's why she's in the Weavenest

[ember river]

Ah, forgot about that line

I was born within this space. To leave would be my death, an uninspired end, though one I've sometimes wished would come.
I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task.
Hornet: I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.
Hornet: Are you too an attempt to defy that cruel constraint?
A flawed attempt. A life spun from rune and shell, sustained only by its cage. My thoughts may mimic a Weavers, but my senses are my own.
Over time, that difference brought only distance between us.

@terse warren these are the lines

[terse warren]

Mhhhhhhh

Might be might be

[ember river]

The divinity line might be because the Weavers thought themselves divine at that point in time

So by attempting to recreate divinity, they could mean attempting to recreate themselves

[terse warren]

Maybe but seems a bit misleading

But also, what isn't misleading in this game?

[terse warren]

I mean again, they also represent souls, they could just be symbolism

[rapid bloom]

Or they could have just flown around

[dire lynx]

i highly doubt they are reffering to themselves here, just looks at evas silhouette, she has a very similar form to gms. also every other invention of weavenest atla is focused on usurping gms

[ember river]

The dialogue is the dialogue, she explicitly says she was an attempt at overcoming their limitation

In nature, she's probably closer to Lace and Phantom

[dire lynx]

the weavers also state she was an attempt at divinity, neither are mutually exclusive

[terse warren]

Inside a memory?

[dire lynx]

the weavers themselves arent able to reproduce, and also dont have the power to overthrow gms

[dire lynx]

they dont represent souls, they ARE souls

[terse warren]

They can both be a thing and represent a thing

Since I doubt the ones inside Karmelita's memory are real due to y'know

Being inside a memory

[dire lynx]

we see silkflies in lamps in weavnest atla and in karmelitas memory, but sure lets just chalk it up to symbolism

[craggy smelt]

yeah, and they also state that they dreamed of someone being born of 'silken strength' who would free them
Eva was an effort at making this savior, an artificial creation since it was so hard for them to breed one naturally

[terse warren]

Me when I withhold information and then act surprised when someone talks disregarding said information

[gentle aspen]

her form isn’t that similar to gms as opposed to weavers in general

[dire lynx]

shes halfway between, also what yak said

[dire lynx]

?

[terse warren]

Almost as if it's important that they're in lamps and not just roaming freely

[dire lynx]

why assume they were wandering?

did you see any wandering silkflies in ur playthrough?

[terse warren]

Because why assume there random ass lamps inside Karmelita's memory

[terse warren]

I mean

[dire lynx]

in atla and karm memory

[terse warren]

The Mist, the start of the game, Lace 1...

That's already 3 spots where they're just roaming

[dire lynx]

use the context of the discussion instead of being a smartass please

[terse warren]

.

In your playthrough

[dire lynx]

.

[terse warren]

If I thought they were just roaming clearly I didn't remember now did I

[gentle aspen]

Do they?

When?

[rapid bloom]

Question, the Snail Shamans claim that at their peak, Khann and his armies held half of Pharloom under their claw and swords
How is it possible if Khann and some of his soldiers dry up the moment they lose their water source?

[terse warren]

Divinity mimicked in a form too frail

[gentle aspen]

they still had their water source

[rapid bloom]

So the water source is rather connected to their life force rather than the water exposure making them live?

[dire lynx]

silkfly lamps

[gentle aspen]

Is this needolin dialogue

[dire lynx]

rune harp

[craggy smelt]

rune haaaarp

the one in weavenest atla

"Hide her deep, the despised child, our shame shown in shell of iron. She is a wish cast vain, divinity mimicked in form too frail."

[ember river]

I doubt that every single silkfly in the game is there to imply something greater

[rapid bloom]

Crazy take, they were probably captured by the Skaar and put in those lamps

[terse warren]

I'm not doubting they're existence

[dire lynx]

*their

[gentle aspen]

I don’t think this necessarily entails they were trying to make another GMS

[terse warren]

Fml

[gentle aspen]

remember they believed themselves to be divine as well

[ember river]

That's what I said

[gentle aspen]

and first sinner got locked away for saying “oh yeah nah mom lied to us”

[dire lynx]

because it jeopardised the weavers fake religion

[gentle aspen]

considering eva calls herself a child of the weavers + she repeatedly notes her difference to them I think she’s just meant to be a weaver

[terse warren]

Anyways since I doubt the Weavers would just let Silkflies fly around to be captured by Skarr and used as lamps I find myself to assume Silkflies can also happen naturally

[craggy smelt]

Eva's Sylphsong ability is reminiscent of Silk's crown-thing and produces infinite silk

[gentle aspen]

I’m aware of that

[craggy smelt]

she's a l'il Silk

[gentle aspen]

weavers in general are “lil Silk”

[dire lynx]

the silkflies were used to guide pilgrims, and we literally see them just hanging around in moss grotto. the skarr could absolutely have found and captured some

[gentle aspen]

so if you’re going to assert that she has similarities because weavers are similar to her that’s fine

Don’t think she was an attempt to make another GMS

[terse warren]

I do think Eva is more so a halfway point between Weavers and GMS

[fresh badger]

I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task. H: I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits. H: Are you too an attempt to defy that cruel constraint? A flawed attempt. A life spun from rune and shell, sustained only by its cage. My thoughts may mimic a Weavers, but my senses are my own.

Like Eva makes it pretty explicit her primary purpose was being created as a Child

But since her form is like runes and silk its not surprising she has GMS vibes since the weaver silk came from gms

[terse warren]

Maybe but then the question is why would Whiteward by there by the time of the Weavers

What purpose would it serve

[dire lynx]

making immortal slaves

[gentle aspen]

weaver racism

[terse warren]

You don't want your slaves to be immortal

[gentle aspen]

You do, actually

[craggy smelt]

also the Weavers came to realize that them being divine was a lie, so if they were just trying to create more of themselves, they wouldn't describe these creations as 'divinity mimicked'
GMS was the only actual god connected with them

[gentle aspen]

if the workers can’t die that’s good

[viscid ridge]

If you consider the lore and look of the whiteward, it was likely the first part of the citidel to be built

[gentle aspen]

eh

Threefold melody stuff probably was

[dawn oar]

if u have them mind controlled yes

[terse warren]

If the workers can't die they start getting ideas that they could overthrow you

[viscid ridge]

Those are likely one of the last lmao 😅

[terse warren]

Except they weren't mind controlled 🥀

[dire lynx]

these arent mutually exclusive as i said before. we know that the weavers wanted a descendant of theirs to save them, so i dont see why eva cant have been an attempt to overthrow gms through divinity(like hornet eventually does) and also a child

[gentle aspen]

why would the entire purpose of the citadel be last

[terse warren]

"It's not like I can die anyways so I'm not gonna do any work"

[gentle aspen]

well yeah you can’t die but you can still be hurt

[viscid ridge]

The entire purpose of the citidel is the song, or atleast it was untill the conductors messed everything up

[gentle aspen]

…yeah that’s what I just said

[terse warren]

You'd also be making the slaves think they have value which goes against the purpose of slaves "Oh wow I'm so important that they want me to be immortal"

[gentle aspen]

well no

the purpose of slaves is value

they bring work

Manual labor

[dire lynx]

song in this case

[viscid ridge]

Yeah you are conflating the song to unlock the elevator with the one that keeps gms asleep. Not the same song

[fresh badger]

Also like, the immortality can be revoked at any time?

[gentle aspen]

the threefold melody is the song that keeps her asleep wdym

they’re not two different things

[terse warren]

Yeah for free

[fresh badger]

Whiteward can extract the silk they implanted

[dire lynx]

it also requires consistent replenishing

[terse warren]

They're supposed to be expendable not immortal

[fresh badger]

And the silk canisters cost... rosaries!

Which they have to work to earn

[twin dragon]

What are the pilgrims singing? The melody seems pretty restricted

[terse warren]

That'd kill basically every bug currently alive

Since they all have silk imbedded in them

[dire lynx]

Due to unacceptably high injury and unsanctioned deaths, Ventrica travel shall henceforth be denied to all.
For Pharloom eternal, a bug who serves must never die.

[gentle aspen]

having silk embedded in them doesn’t mean they’re all immortal

[terse warren]

Point taken

[gentle aspen]

plus a good chunk of said silk was passed down like microplastics

silkplastics

microsilks

Hmm

[dire lynx]

look at ballador, you need fresh silk to keep you alive

[terse warren]

Finally someone else gets it

[terse warren]

I mean ballador was also just old

[gentle aspen]

uncador

[terse warren]

I don't think you'd need a constant stream of silk into you like he did

[dire lynx]

no, but the soul power of the silk would eventually drain

[terse warren]

I doubt the slaves were going around with a silk IV drip

[gentle aspen]

that’s what the rosary silk things were for

get a quick hit of silk to last you until you finish your job

[terse warren]

On one hand point taken on the other how can they die if they're immortal

[gentle aspen]

snorting lines of silk in your union mandated five second break

[dire lynx]

immortality vs invulnerability

[terse warren]

Government mandated drugs go hard

[twin dragon]

Theyre only as immortal as long as they can snort silk

[terse warren]

Also that dialogue was probably made after the Weavers died

Since I assume it's somewhat recent

[fresh badger]

STIMS

Wait im curious, do we have dialogue/tablets about members of the choir like. Getting too old/weak/hoarse throat to keep singing

[dire lynx]

"Bug of voice grown hoarse or shell fallen frail, you have been selected for duty most sacred.
Become our light, our guide in darkness, that others worthy may climb to join the holy song."

essentially, if you become to weak they turn you into a silkfly so you can keep being a slave

that choral commandment is right next to the silk syphon

[fresh badger]

Ah

[viscid ridge]

Im still incredibly confused about how long silkflies have been around considering they are in karmelitas memory

[terse warren]

karmelita is not that old

certainly no older than the Whiteward

[twin dragon]

Wasn't she around before gms visited pharloom

[terse warren]

No

She's the latest inheritor of the Heart

she was not around since the beginning

neither were Khaan nor GP

[twin dragon]

where is it stated

fuck

[terse warren]

in the same dialogue you're thinking of

!wiki Snail Shamans Silksong

[twin dragon]

snail shamans telling you that

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Snail_Shamans_(Silksong)
Not the correct result? Use !wiki page Snail Shamans Silksong for a direct link.

Hollow Knight Wiki

Snail Shamans (Silksong)

Loading page description…

[twin dragon]

Yeah that somehow went through my head completely

Skarrs could've been catching those silkflies considering they were all around the kingdom to guide pilgrims

[terse warren]

unrelated but wow, proof that the shamans did visit the abyss so even more confirmation the shamans liking void is a retcon

[terse warren]

proof it's not just karm but all of em

well except Nyleth

[twin dragon]

Abyssal shriek does raise some questions

but it could've been AC

[terse warren]

the guy explicitly says it's not a place where is family thought to look, there's no doubt abyssal shriek isn't shaman stuff

[twin dragon]

Snail shaman i asume

[terse warren]

yes the one from HK

[twin dragon]

I mean tbf their family is a very long walk through the wastes apart

[gentle aspen]

you mean, didn’t visit the abyss?

[terse warren]

yes i mean't didn't whoops

well no

the Silksong ones did

which is in direct opposition with HK ones

[gentle aspen]

“That space below remains long unseen, even to our family.”

[terse warren]

since i saw some people say "well we never see the Silksong ones visit the abyss so technically what the shaman says is still correct"