sk-lore

[coarse forge]

Ok so how many weavers will it take to defeat 1 gms

[stray grove]

100 Weavers easily

Unless you’re saying Hornet also beats 100 Weavers

[coarse forge]

Idk lol maybe after godhome????

[stray grove]

Which is extremely unlikely considering she was captured by a full choir chamber

(Which wouldn’t even be close to the number needed to overcome 100 first gen Weavers lmao)

GMS isn’t really that strong and the Weavers already managed to capture her once

[silk dirge]

powerscalers begone

[stray grove]

I assume there weren’t 100 of them

[silk dirge]

i dont want powerscaling talk in my lore channel

😭

[coarse forge]

K

[stray grove]

“Your” lore channel

[silk dirge]

(i am guilty of doing this exact type of stuff)

[silk dirge]

yeah its mine now i bought it

[coarse forge]

How much?

[silk dirge]

it was 100 rosaries

very cheap

[coarse forge]

You got a bargain fr fr

[edgy nebula]

does silksong retcon the white palace nursery

it plays the shade theme but itd presumably have been made to raise hornet

[azure moth]

i think it's more of a place where the pure vessel was raised

or where it's shade ended up being if it were to die

but there's no confirmation of that so

it could've been made for whatever

[edgy nebula]

thing is why would it be raised there? if pv was able to be tarnished by an idea instilled why would they make a nursery

[twilit crest]

That’s easy tbh

Weavers aren’t that strong. Act 3 hornet can make quick work of them.

[dense sphinx]

Hornet has officially been to white palace before

[stray fog]

They had to raise and train them to prime form somewhere

[craggy smelt]

they didn't know that it could be tarnished, they thought that wouldn't happen
that was the 'supposed strength, ill-judged'

[twilit crest]

Can haunted bugs write? If so, are the bugs who kidnapped Hornet haunted?

[craggy smelt]

the bugs that captured Hornet are haunted, she mentions as much in the entry for the Envoy

Bugs like these crossed the caves to bring me to Pharloom. I cut down many before my capture. Then I had thought them minded and cunning. Now I see the singular will that haunts them all.

presumably they can also write, someone wrote the commandment about going to the 'kingdom of the White Wyrm'

[muted lantern]

I imagine bugs who arent resurrected by the thread and just influenced by it still communicate normally with writing, just subtly influenced by gms's desires.

[twilit crest]

Well you know what that makes sense

Cause widow can communicate functionally*

Do we know how many waves of haunted bugs it took to capture hornet

[muted lantern]

It was a full chamber of choristers iirc. Which is what we fight in the high halls gauntlet.

[craggy smelt]

we're just told 'a full chamber'

the bugs carrying her cage are Envoys

reeds and choristers were also sent after other weaverkin

[muted lantern]

I thought it was generally assumed a full chamber is what we encounter in the forum

[craggy smelt]

hornet must have done some damage, with only like half a dozen guys left

[twilit crest]

Jfc she went down kicking

[craggy smelt]

that's what would have been written on cradle cage report

(actually, I bet citadel bugs would swear by 'gms')

[fervent sigil]

isn’t canon but, what did the people do in the shrine of believers

[craggy smelt]

the actual messages are from kickstarter backers
canonically, the moth outside claims the messages are from another world, so maybe there's an 'other world' of weird creatures out there and the moths collected their thoughts

[marble oasis]

There’s no indication Ministers and Maestros get sent outside of Pharloom

And there were no fewer than eight Envoys sent while there’s only one in the Forum gauntlet

[arctic vapor]

does hornet know she's the sister of the void when visited by the knight and the other shades? she wasn't there in the dream realm when the knight turned into the lord of shades and was unconscious after radiance was killed, and the shade lord form looks different from its vessel.

[stray grove]

She meets TK outside the Birthplace after it gets VH so knows it’s the Lord of Shades. She wouldn’t be familiar with the Void Given Focus (Shade Lord) form specifically but that’s not physically present in the ending and even if it was TK initially appears to her in the form she’s familiar with so it wouldn’t be difficult for her to put two and two together.

[frosty gate]

Lord of Shades isnt a known thing, she doesn't know that's the LoS

[frosty gate]

She probably didn't know it prior to the encounter but she recognized the shade, regardless of the changes. They aren't huge changes, and I mean, I feel like it doesn't take her much to connect the dots

"Why would a random shade save me that has to be The Ghost"

[stray grove]

She knows it’s the Lord of Shades in the sense that she knows it’s successfully unified the Void. Obviously she doesn’t use that exact terminology

Hornet knew this was possible even before TK achieved it

[cinder pebble]

wait she unified with the void? i thought she just got helped out lol
cause the tendrils still weren’t exactly friendly

[frosty gate]

Unifying the void you mean?

[frosty gate]

No, the Knight did it

[cinder pebble]

ye that’s what i was thinking

[stray grove]

Ghost. I see you've faced the place of your birth, and now drape yourself in the substance of its shadow.
Though our strength is born of similar source, that part of you, that crucial emptiness, I do not share.
Funny then, that such darkness gives me hope. Within it, I see the chance of change.
A difficult journey you would face, but a choice it can create. Prolong our world's stasis or face the heart of its infection.

...It faced the void, and ascends unscathed... Could it unite such vast darkness?..

This is pre-VH dialogue,

I'm impressed little ghost. You've burdened yourself with the fate of this world, yet you still stand strong.
To break the Dreamer's seals would alone be considered an impossible task, but to accept that void inside yourself, that casts you as something rather exceptional.

Ghost of Hallownest, you possess the strength to enact an end of your choosing. Would you supplant our birth-cursed sibling, or would you transcend it?

This is post-VH, outside the Black Egg

She recognizes that TK is the Lord of Shades, the entity in control of the entire Void. It’s not her going “oh cool TK’s Shade saved me”

[cinder pebble]

ok so she recognises TK as the shade lord, but she isn’t unified herself?

[stray grove]

This is the longest setup for a “Hornet is Void” joke I’ve ever seen

[cinder pebble]

lol

i dont think i’ve actually seen the vid tho 😭

[arctic vapor]

tangent but her black sillhouette after breaking her cocoon reminds me of how the void particles exit downwards out of the scene, is that implying that she is partially void though

even if she doesnt know it

[stray grove]

She isn’t partially Void

[lusty tree]

even if hornet was void

how would that work?

[stray grove]

She’s not so it’s not worth thinking about

[arctic vapor]

how would you explain the particles then

[stray grove]

What colour is Hornet’s body

[arctic vapor]

talking about this silhouette

after breaking cocoon

[stray grove]

I repeat the question

[arctic vapor]

white

[lusty tree]

counting or not counting the color of the other bugs of hallownest? /ref

[arctic vapor]

wait a second

it's black

[stray grove]

So what colour would you expect the particles to be

[arctic vapor]

black... but what about the particle animation? it matches pure vessel's when it dies too

[lusty tree]

what do the pure vessel and hornet both have in common?

their father is the pale king

its probably some wyrm stuff

[arctic vapor]

but the particles are void in the case of the pv

the shell is from the wyrm

[stray grove]

It doesn’t

[gentle aspen]

Pv’s death animation has them like

falling

[stray grove]

Black things explode into black particles

[gentle aspen]

it’s a mix of black particles and hype moments

[stray grove]

Grey Prince Zote isn’t Void either nor are Snail Shamans

[lusty tree]

wait the shamans aren't void?

[stray grove]

No

[gentle aspen]

they explicitly say their power is all soul

They just have a fascination with the substance now

[lusty tree]

like fent

[gentle aspen]

ye

[lusty tree]

ok it makes sense

[stray grove]

Even corpses in Deep Docks that are charred by lava turn into black dust

Actually I think those are the same as the Hornet respawn particles

[arctic vapor]

really?

[stray grove]

iirc yes

[arctic vapor]

as in when you push them into lava?

[stray grove]

Yeah

[arctic vapor]

ahhh okay

[lusty tree]

i think the particles are just hornet dissolving ngl

[craggy smelt]

I think it's chocolate

[lusty tree]

pale wyrm's corpse dissolves in the kingdoms edge too

its some wyrm thing im sure

[stray grove]

No I don’t think so

The Wyrm corpse isn’t “dissolving” instantaneously like the Hornet respawn it’s been decaying over the course of literal ages which is probably a natural process and not a species quirk, also the falling Wyrm ash looks completely different

[arctic vapor]

^^ and the ash is white

[stray grove]

It’s just a husk breaking apart

[lusty tree]

it might be bcuz its bigger in size who knows

idk

[stray grove]

There’s no reason to think it’s a Wyrm thing really

Wyrms don’t spin silk cocoons either

[oblique rampart]

Yh

[lusty tree]

thats a weaver thing

since hornets half weaver

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-meme-gif-27535478

[whole holly]

Hornet primarily has weaver identity, i think it is more of individual thing, rather than something that can be attributed to species, if vessels weren't in abyss they would likely have pale silhouette constructed of essence and soul, i think

[twilit orbit]

Are craws bugs or birds, cuz they don't look like bugs and look and sound like birds, but for them to be small like other bugs they're pretty small to be birds, so what are craws?

[stray grove]

They’re bug birds

Birds don’t exist in-universe and craws are called crawbugs but they’re clearly just… crows

It’s not a size thing, we don’t even have a scale

[twilit orbit]

That actually explains a lot, on why they placed the blame on hornet for everything, cuz crows irl are just like that if you piss them off

[stray grove]

Google “crow court”

But also Hornet deserved it

She even seems to acknowledge that herself in the journal

[whole holly]

it is kind of shame that Hallownest King didn't have great/close relationship with Weavers, Mothkin and Hive, Weavers and Shamans could have been their scientists in soul sanctum if PK didn't forbid it and Soul Sanctum bugs ethically got soul, imagine if weavers achieved Spiral or Pure Focus and Mothkin could have helped with Radiance seals, along with Weavers and Shamans

Deepnest Spider Tribe were territorial, hostile and secluded, Mantis Tribe were secluded and isolated as well as Hive, Mushroom Tribe was accepting of both infection and pale king's rule, Mothkin did worship PK but they disappeared quick

[stray fog]

If only

[lean temple]

The Shamans were shunned in Hallownest, probably due to them stealing soul from people. And the Weavers in Pharloom didn't ask their help when they could've helped immensely, so idk about the realism of this.

Soul Sanctum tried extracting soul from totems but they just needed immense amounts of it that they weren't enough.

[whole holly]

Shamans were shunned but Shaman in first game said soul is in the air and totems also had it

what do you mean with Weavers in Pharloom, i am talking about ones in hallownest

[spark valve]

the sanctum wasn't lacking for soul its goal was just not something that could ever work

[whole holly]

portal to void in dream realm achieved by weavers, shamans and mothkin would have been great

[lean temple]

I meant they didn't cooperate there so why would they do that in Hallownest

[whole holly]

cooperate with who?

[lean temple]

Shamans in Pharloom to banish GMS into the Abyss for example. The Weavers never thought to do that. So them working with PK is unrealistic

[stray grove]

He did have a great relationship with all of the aforementioned groups except the Shamans who were chill and the Hives who specifically asked to be left alone

[stray fog]

The game series is about dying kingdoms so this isnt happening unfortunately

[stray grove]

Moths don’t use soul so idk why they’re relevant here

[whole holly]

oh right, you were talking about weaver relationship with shamans, i get it now

[stray grove]

They were his subjects however. And he did work closely with the Weavers following the Deepnest deal

[whole holly]

to access dream realm that radiance is in, i am pretty sure that's required for plan, or at least they dream nail

[stray grove]

PK had no issue doing that himself

He didn’t need the Dream Nail

Also he evidently managed to get Radiance inside THK so this is a moot point

[whole holly]

i mean they didn't really cooperate with Hallownest Kingdom, they only ever made trade they considered fair

[stray grove]

Which is cooperation

[whole holly]

i mean didn't THK do that by focusing

[stray grove]

If it did then the moths weren’t needed

[stray fog]

I think hes talking about them being more involved and collaborative

[whole holly]

but it grand scheme of things, failed tram and all, plus attacking mantis territory which where Hallownest Allies

[stray grove]

They were involved

Their queen was a Dreamer

Hallownest began using silk parchment instead of stone tablets

[whole holly]

i mean if something like Snare and Void trap set it Dream Realm, i am not sure if that can be done with focusing

[stray grove]

PK started getting silk shipped directly to his house to use as a spel medium

Also the Seal of Binding

[stray fog]

True

[whole holly]

wasn't it rune tablet, which can be made with soul?

[stray grove]

That wouldn’t work on Radiance

[whole holly]

that was isolated incident for herrah to have child

[stray fog]

We see spools in the ancient basin stag station

[stray grove]

We are told by Lemm that later in the kingdom’s history they switched to silk parchment. The stone tablets aren’t “made with soul” they’re just stones

[whole holly]

oh

[stray grove]

It wasn’t isolated if you read the rest of my messages

The Dreamer deal led to PK cooperating with the spider tribe

[whole holly]

maybe silk trade isn't necessarily same as active cooperation to extent of establishing transportation like tram

[stray fog]

That was before the deal I guess

[stray grove]

The tram was PK and it didn’t work out

The workers got killed by Dirtcarvers and shit

[whole holly]

aren't they just part of deepnest, Spider Tribe?

[stray grove]

I mean the tram itself is functional and there’s a public path but wtv

[stray fog]

Not the spider tribe

They aren't spiders

[stray grove]

It wasn’t the spider tribe that killed them

It was the beasts of Deepnest, wild animals

Anyway I’m not sure what you’re getting at here

[whole holly]

you guys are right i forgot

[stray fog]

Anyway
Why does hot water regenerate soul / silk?
Any lore reasons?

[whole holly]

it seems Weavers were cooperative with PK, but Spider Tribe other than Weavers much less but there isn't lot they could do i guess

[stray grove]

I mean they probably provided the silk that was used for the parchment

I doubt people were writing on soul infused weaver silk

[whole holly]

wow, i mean why not though? i guess her light repels void but isn't it sheer amount that was required for her end, GMS also was able to withstand void

[whole holly]

is there non-weaver silk?

[stray fog]

Did the pale king know that void could kill the radiance? Radiance isn't pale, so he would not necessarily know that void opposes her power

[stray grove]

GMS was weakened and had to be beaten by Hornet before the trap was sprung, and even then it didn’t work as expected
Radiance is a formless being, and she could just dematerialize and escape to another part of the Dream expanse

[stray grove]

Void does oppose her power. PK calls it the power opposed. Also, Void opposes light in general, not just pale beings

And he did know Void could be used against her… that’s the entire basis of the Vessel project

Killing her simply wasn’t going to be an option

[stray grove]

Yes, regular spiders also produce silk

Even Nosk produces silk, we can see its prey strung up in its lair

Weaver silk is special cos it’s soul

[whole holly]

why couldn't she do that with shade lord?

[stray grove]

I’m not sure what the question is

[whole holly]

aren't they called thread? i mean i only seen non-weaver silk refereed as thread?

[stray grove]

Call it whatever but it’s the same thing

The parchment used by the citizens was made of that

[stray fog]

The vessel project was done because a thoughtless being would contain a dream entity
Not because void is lethal to that entity

[whole holly]

why didn't radiance dematerialized when shade lord approached?

[whole holly]

oh

[stray grove]

She did

When you stagger her she dematerializes and tries to escape

After she falls to the ground for the first time

[fresh badger]

Soul is associated with heat bc soul spells leave corpses charred, so the water seems loaded with ambient soul heating it

[whole holly]

yes but after shade becomes shade lord and everything around is void

[stray grove]

It doesn’t work because she’s in a finite dream space and she’s fighting a being more powerful than her who keeps summoning infinite void that cuts off her escape routes

Also TK beats her up first which weakens her and dispels her aura

[stray fog]

I thought that the hot water in deep docks is hot because of the nearby magma and lava

[whole holly]

oh thank you, but couldn't that be accomplished by snare void portal, on bigger scale

[stray grove]

He literally calls Void the power opposed. What you are describing is what PK believed was a property of Void

[whole holly]

like if THK was thrown in void , how could radiance escape? if THK was submerged?

[stray grove]

No because Rad wouldn’t be in a finite space first of all, but even if she was PK wouldn’t be able to coordinate the Void in the way TK does nor would it be able to gather that volume of it

It’s just not realistic

Rad also has to be weakened first

[stray grove]

Radiance is in its mind, she’s not a physical being

[lusty tree]

she would be safe inside thk, and since nothing else would be able to reach thk to enter the dream space to fight her the infection wouldn't end

[whole holly]

Snare Setter absorbed GMS soul, couldn't mothkin and weavers make similar weapon against rad?

[lusty tree]

the weavers were racist against the mothkin

[whole holly]

if THK was consumed, or hollowed out by void? and radiance within?

[stray grove]

No. GMS is a physical being, Radiance is not, also you’re begging the question

[whole holly]

really?

[stray grove]

They weren’t

[fresh badger]

I mean true. Theres also the fact that artificial hot springs can be created (kratt, bellhome spa) so I dont rlly know what to think

[whole holly]

yea but does that matter in dream realm where knight can attack radiance with nail of all things

[lusty tree]

yeah that one was a joke, but seriously we don't see an interaction between the mothkin and the weavers in the game so they mightve been enemies

[spark valve]

He may or may not have known it was theoretically possible for it to kill her but it wasn’t really on the list of options either way

[stray grove]

I’ve already to you why killing Rad using the same method as GMS wouldn’t work, you can keep asking questions but ultimately it just doesn’t make any sense for it happen in game. There’s no reason to believe you can come up with something that just escaped PK’s attention when the entire point is the Vessel Project was the only option

[stray fog]

Wow its the 1.12 diamond texture

[stray grove]

Yes. Sealing her was also only possible due to Void however

[whole holly]

i mean entire vessel project was only known option, but i get your point, defeating dream beings don't come with tutorial or manual, he did only idea he could come up with

[stray grove]

It’s not “the only thing he could come up with” it’s “the only thing he could have done”. Realistically PK had no way to kill Radiance and going “lmao actually he could’ve just done x” undermines the point of the game

PK is an extremely old extremely intelligent prescient deity who studied void extensively

If there was an alternative he’d be coming up with it, not you

[whole holly]

i get what you are saying but with Godseeker and Voidheart another things were explored

[stray grove]

That option was not available to PK

[whole holly]

yeah, that was point of my question though, with cooperation of Shamans and Mothkin in Sealing Radiance there could have been other options

[stray grove]

No

[whole holly]

?

[stray grove]

The Shamans and the Moths would contribute nothing PK couldn’t already do himself

He can do everything they can do to the power infinity

[lusty tree]

wait a minute i just got a question

[stray grove]

Also he probably did cooperate with the Moths and it’s silly to go “yeah if PK had asked around he could’ve just made a plan and killed Rad”

[lusty tree]

if the radiance isn't a physical being how did pk seal her in the vessel in the first place

like how did they put her in the pure vessel

[stray fog]

Magic

[stray grove]

We don’t know but he has his ways

[whole holly]

like Void Portal Snare that could take down pale higher being, don't tell me they couldn't have done that because knight's nail affects her in dream realm

[stray grove]

That wouldn’t work for reasons I already explained in detail and can’t be bothered to repeat

Scroll up if you want

[whole holly]

maybe portal could have been opened in all four directions

[stray grove]

You’re just making shit up atp

[lusty tree]

shamans probably didn't like the pale king ngl

[whole holly]

you explained de-materializing thing

[stray grove]

Void portal wouldn’t work. And if it would PK could’ve made one himself he didn’t need the Shamans or the Moths or whatever

[stray fog]

We don't know if a void portal can be made in the dream realm

Atleast by the shamans

[lusty tree]

pk allowed for the experimentation of one of the shamans by the soul sanctum so even if the shamans could, they wouldn't help

[stray grove]

He didn’t allow that

[stray fog]

The sanctum was already doing illegal shit

[whole holly]

physical things can be transferred in dream realm though, with no limit ever established, White Palace is in Dream Realm

[stray grove]

He specifically opposed the sanctum’s practices

[whole holly]

that's true

[lusty tree]

the sanctum is literally in the capital city how did he not approve of it

[stray grove]

I explained a great deal more than that. Scroll up

[lusty tree]

he probably had atleast some part in the experimentations before he started opposing it

[stray grove]

Baseless

[spark valve]

But the King... why?! **He opposed everything I did... **

[stray fog]

Gangs exist in capital cities

The sanctum would be similar

[spark valve]

everything

implying

at no point was he supporting them

[whole holly]

i mean yes, but point of game was that there were ways PK couldn't have come up with, and that doesn't undermine point of game, it is point of game, there were things even he couldn't accomplish

[stray grove]

No that’s not the point of the game

What TK achieved was not something PK could possibly have replicated

[whole holly]

it is pretty big part of it regardless

[stray grove]

Stop trying to make up ways to kill Rad and trying to argue they would’ve worked

[whole holly]

that's thing he couldn't accomplish, which is part of game

[stray grove]

The point is that PK has no way to kill her yes

[lusty tree]

the only reason tk did what it did is because pk failed at what he was trying to do

[stray grove]

The vessel project was his only option

So

Trying to argue that the GMS void trap would’ve worked is pretty asinine

[whole holly]

there were things even he couldn't accomplish, so that is part of game

[stray grove]

Even then I’ve explained why it wouldn’t so you can move on now

[spark valve]

when gms gets grabbed she gets dragged, when rad gets grabbed she can (and does) just teleport out

[whole holly]

let's change subject

[stray grove]

Would you believe it if I told you I said the exact same thing

(Among other things)

[spark valve]

you know what they say about hollow knight fans

[whole holly]

i get that but Shade Lord had to surround it with void, so she didn't escape

[stray grove]

As I already explained LoS was only able to kill her because she was in a FINITE dream space that it continued to fill with a VAST AMOUNT of Void that it was able to use to close off her escape routes and even then it had to WEAKEN her to the point where her light-repelling halo was dispelled and the Void was able to take her out

[whole holly]

that they can come up with void portal that surrounds Radiance same way shade lord did?

[whole holly]

why can't that be replicated with Void Portal?

[stray grove]

Read the capitalized words please

[whole holly]

void portal can't have vast amounts of void? you said it doesn't make sense to happen in game

[stray grove]

:/

[whole holly]

i heavily doubt that

[stray grove]

Even if PK opened a portal to the abyss it would just pour void into the Dream expanse that wouldn’t do anything

PK can’t command or coordinate it

He can’t unify it

Rad could just go somewhere else

Literally anywhere else

[fresh badger]

Also a mere lighthouse was able to subdue a sea of ununified void and prevent it from really acting as void

What do you think a being made eentirely of essence (light) would do

[stray grove]

Rad’s halo also repels Void she’d have to be weakened beforehand

[whole holly]

isn't whole point of finite dream expanse, it can be submerged in void

[stray grove]

Even GMS needed to be weakened lmao

[stray grove]

Are you saying PK could fill the entirety of the dream expanse with Void

That’s absurd

[whole holly]

Snare that drains her or some king of spell for that

[stray grove]

We’re just making shit up now ok

[fresh badger]

Wdym finite? She was sealed in THK's dream, but the expanse of dream is literally that, an expanse. Probably infinite.

[whole holly]

it's not line Shamans or Pale King established limits of how much void could there be transported

[limpid summit]

It’s finite ig in the sense that she couldn’t literally teleport into a different dream? Iunno

[sinful nimbus]

Void portal wouldn't do all that much if Rad could leave to another dream

[stray grove]

Begging the question lmao

[whole holly]

idk man i am following his logic, that dream realm rad was is it finite

[stray grove]

Yeah when TK fights her

She’s in a finite space, THK’s mind…

If she was free she could go literally wherever she wanted and the dream expanse is as far as we’re concerned, infinite

[fresh badger]

In the hypothetical where PK doesnt use vessels, Rad isnt contained in a vessel's dream

[whole holly]

yeah, that's what i meant, THK's dream realm could be filled with void and stuff out light also spells and snares to weaken her

[stray fog]

I mean killing all his babies was the last thint the pale king would have wanted
So if a better plan was there, he didn't know it, or it wasn't plausible

[stray grove]

No shit

[whole holly]

i agree with that, but this question is somewhat hypothetical

[stray fog]

It needs to be stated, given the current conversation

[stray grove]

Trying to come up with a “better plan” is one of my most hated lore topics on god

[fresh badger]

I mean its pretty simple he shouldve just had Hornet bind Radiance as a crest

[spark valve]

'why didn't macbeth just not kill the king'

[stray grove]

So true

But it’s even worse in this case

Macbeth was a weak, mortal man. PK was a nigh omniscient prescient deity with infinite power who had studied void extensively but HK fans who can’t even be bothered to read think they can come up with a better plan than him lmao

[sinful nimbus]

Why didn't PK just send in Hornet to kill Rad. Experience tells her, even gods fall.

[stray grove]

Like the way in which TK kills Rad was impossible for him and the game frames the vessel project and its failure as “yeah this is literally the best he possibly could have done but it was impossible for him to win”

[whole holly]

whole point of better plan is discussing things that Pale King couldn't do or things he missed, foresight doesn't make him omniscient and he could have flawed plan without it being best plan accessible to him, not to suggest that Pale King committed infanticide for nothing, point of hypothetical question is that narrative flaws don't apply to it, only things that are hypothetically possible

[spark valve]

surely the 'demise unavoidable' could've been easily avoided!

[fresh badger]

The point of the vessels is its such an extreme solution you think PK didnt already try every less drastic one?

[stray grove]

No HK fans know better

Maybe they should’ve written the game instead

[fresh badger]

Kirb lay off smh

[spark valve]

ok but for act 3 silksong that's so true they shoulda let me write it

[whole holly]

most criticisms of these ideas come from narrative sense, i am not asking what PK didn't do, it is that what could have happened given better circumstances and expanded information

[whole holly]

if that was actually fact Shade Lord wouldn't be able to defeat Radiance, by your own logic

[stray grove]

We already explained why it wouldn’t work you just can’t be bothered to read

But yes the premise is also stupid

[stray fog]

How would the pale king make a shade lord

Does he even know what it is

[fresh badger]

Isnt there dialogue about how uniting the void was a power that hadnt been conceived before

[whole holly]

i am talking about vague stance that infection was demise unavoidable for everyone as criticism for alternative ideas not involving PK at all

[stray fog]

Unavoidable in the pale king's circumstances at that time

[limpid summit]

I mean he foresaw it

It was gonna happen

Even AC weren’t sure how to unite the void so if his research went there it would have gone nowhere

[stray grove]

Probably not

[whole holly]

yeah, that my point, PK's limits don't apply to combined efforts of hypothetical proposals

[limpid summit]

The demise unavoidable?

Is that just the mushrooms lamenting

I feel like he’d have shared that

[stray grove]

Yes

[limpid summit]

Since their treaty is built upon his prescience

[stray grove]

Nonsense

PK wouldn’t kill a bunch of his own kids for a solution he knew wouldn’t work dude

[whole holly]

Moth Queen Hornet , /jk

[stray grove]

Whether that was hubris or a limitation of his foresight or Void interference or whatever he clearly expected the vessel project to have a good chance at working

[limpid summit]

Who put Void interference on the team

[whole holly]

his prescience couldn't even predict Rad would get mad if his influence converted mothkin to worship him, diplomatic relation could have prevented that

[stray grove]

Yes he wasn’t omniscient

[random harbor]

Lore Tablet: White Palace - White Palace Throne Room

No blazing kin. Only one light shall shine against the dark.
The Wyrm becomes beacon, minds expanded, to yield, to devote.
Eternity in promise and charge in progeny cursed.

@dhruv._19 used /lore-tablets area: White Palace name: White Palace Throne Room

[stray fog]

Only one light

He didn't fw rad

[whole holly]

yeah, exactly there are better solutions he couldn't think of

[stray grove]

This is after she went crazy

[stray fog]

Oh

[whole holly]

thanks for context

[limpid summit]

This was likely after THK was sealed

[whole holly]

imagine Steel Hearts, Shamans, Weavers and Mothkin tried to take down radiance, they WOULD have succeeded, PK killed bunch of kids because he was a fool(hornet's title given to PK)

[limpid summit]

He’s cementing the eternal nature of his kingdom and beacon amongst the “darkness” of beastly thought

Compared to Rad who offers unity but a lack of sapience

[whole holly]

who is more foolish, Lord Fool or Pale King?

[limpid summit]

And charge in progeny cursed THK duh

[limpid summit]

Steel servants could have probably compressed her

They just didn’t care

[spark valve]

making shit up

[whole holly]

yeah, they don't even establish diplomatic trade

[whole holly]

they straight up said they can compress even/especially pale/higher beings

[limpid summit]

No nika I was joking

[whole holly]

but maybe since she was made of dreams

[limpid summit]

They probably couldn’t do that

Also yeah Rad was never physical

[whole holly]

yeah, Dream Being

but what is lore reason of knight's physical nail hitting radiance? in dream realm?

[stray grove]

They didn’t

You higher doesn’t mean higher beings

Hornet isn’t a higher being

[whole holly]

what did she mean, higher caste?

[stray fog]

Steel stuff is too vague to know rn

[limpid summit]

In dreams you can interact with dream things like they are physical

[stray grove]

It likely means beings with free agency as that’s what differentiates Hornet from the Steelhearts and their vassals

[limpid summit]

She likely just means sapient autonomous beings

That’s what Jinn talks about

[whole holly]

okay i know i just wanted to confirm it

[stray grove]

It’s also the most consistent reading with Jinn’s dialogue in HK yes

[whole holly]

can you give me quote?

[limpid summit]

And their vassals?

Bro Sula and Jiji aren’t robots

[stray grove]

They don’t have free agency

That’s… dude did you even read Sula’s dialogue

[limpid summit]

Yes of course

That’s how I figured out SS is after EtV

[spark valve]

asking a hollow knight fan if they read something

[limpid summit]

Does Jinn dream?... What purpose, mine?... To serve, enough?

Does It want to know of Jinn?...
Jinn, little know... cannot tell of self. Too young, it’s thought, its mind. Born to provide, to trade.

Pale It... You would reject the role? Are you not tamed, bound, by Masters?... You would know... obedience is essential.

[whole holly]

people who said that are biggest fans though, telling on themselves more than anything, in my experience.

[stray grove]

In your experience?

Bro think he Hornet

No wonder he’s trying to make up ways to kill gods

[whole holly]

you gotta be shakra

[limpid summit]

He’s Kratt

[stray grove]

😳

[whole holly]

in my experience even gods can fall, tammo shouldn't be different

[whole holly]

ew, no double it and give it to next person

[hollow apex]

Who the hell is tammo

[viscid ridge]

Its better you don't know

[limpid summit]

Oh the horror…

[hollow apex]

Dude.. I almost forgot how it feels

[lusty tree]

I DODGED IT LAST SECOND

I CLOSED THE TAB QUICKLY

GOD BLESS MY WIFI

[wet shadow]

Who is tammo

[whole holly]

i dodged it because of tab preview

Soul Sanctum was horrible , hornet should have binded Soul Master

[twilit crest]

How far does ghost on a fresh save get in Silksong? Assuming it finds its own crests and power ups instead of hornet’s

Purely based on lore

[limpid summit]

Sweeps

TK is stronger than Hornet

[abstract aspen]

how comes TK couldnt control the void tendrils in the sister of the void ending

[sinful nimbus]

Because that doesn't lend itself to hype moments and aura

[abstract aspen]

oh

so it doesnt have anything to do with lore?

[sinful nimbus]

I mean

Unless they changed how voidheart worked yeah I don't think it has too many lore implications

[abstract aspen]

okay

ty

[silk dirge]

i think you could just say the void tendrils have momentum

no better enemy to lore than physics

[twilit crest]

Who is tk

[vapid radish]

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-broken-vessel-gif-2963585343987271279

Empty and broken god:

Or the vessel

[twilit crest]

Oh u mean Ghost

Ty

[dusk kraken]

Could weavers/pharlids produce silk before GMS involvement

[rich gulch]

🤷

[dusk kraken]

Thank you

[rich gulch]

ofc

[frosty gate]

TC GIVE PHANTOM PROPER LORE AND MY LIFE IS YOURS

[whole holly]

hey everyone, i want to discuss this with good faith, i want to talk about Main Character candidates for third game in Hollow Knight Universe

who do you guys think it will be

i think it could be Sharpe based on design alone but he is backer character, it is most likely higher being related character that is similar shape to knight or hornet

[limpid summit]

I would love that honestly

However

We didn’t get much more on the steelhearts as a faction besides them being chaotic in HK but now in SS they seem fairly callous or antagonistic

I don’t think Sharpe will end up sympathetic enough to warrant his own game

He also doesn’t have that protagonist character design

Personally I don’t think anyone in SS is set up well for the role of a protagonist

[whole holly]

Lace would be interesting but she is also drastically different that conventional main character, and lore wise she requires to be sustained

[limpid summit]

And TC is probably going to move away from HK at least temporarily

[whole holly]

maybe Steel Heaert not yet introduced?

[whole holly]

that's plausible

[cedar skiff]

Focus, H.

also sharpe is they/them

i too was shocked when i found this out

[whole holly]

personally i think it could be Grimm, lot of people don't agree

[whole holly]

i am not, knight is they/them

[limpid summit]

So if they come back to the universe after that they might have a new character

Sharpe isn’t nb

[cedar skiff]

i think all sharpe content kinda blurred together so i didn’t realise it was actually official team cherry statements they/theming sharpe

[limpid summit]

Not to quash nb representation but I think he’s he him

[whole holly]

plausible

[cedar skiff]

i feel like its a phantom situation

[whole holly]

i don't think it matters that much, all the vessels are they/them

[limpid summit]

Wait where

[spark valve]

Sharpe is a hunter from a distant land. He’s tasked with eliminating Hornet and he’s not come alone. Sharpe brings companions on his deadly quest

[limpid summit]

Yeah that’s all I see

[spark valve]

Sharpe brings companions on his deadly quest. Who are they? And why are they pursuing Hornet? We’ll leave you to guess at their full nature. Just know, Hornet’s gonna be fighting for her life against this highly trained trio.
instances of they here are plural

[whole holly]

i definitely want new MC to be cooler than Hornet, maybe TC will be introducing new Character in DLC

[spark valve]

so yeah sharpe is he/him at least with current material

[whole holly]

i definitely want Monomon like character in Sea of Sorrows

[whole holly]

Jellyfish and Squid are cool

Monomon's Body proportions look like GMS's somewhat if you don't include legs

thin upper body

[open coyote]

the radiance and gms both have weird legs that are similar as if they were removed or something

[whole holly]

yeah

[open coyote]

their legs are kinda conjoined together

and is it me or does gms look like mewtwo from pokémon

[whole holly]

no HB has functional legs it seems that are visible

[sinful nimbus]

Radiance actually splits her legs in certain sprites

[whole holly]

really, in-game?

[sinful nimbus]

Yes like after she gets staggered in phase 1

[whole holly]

it seems like weapon more than limb

[whole holly]

oh, i guess that makes sense

kind of like GMS, it seems like artifical appendage/addition to body

[ornate pier]

Sharpe was only they/themmed in the recent interview i think

The past materials use he

Could've been changed but i doubt it due to gendered characters being they/themmed in this game

They/themmed sounds weirdly aggressive ngl

Eh, doubt it

It was like one instance

But who knows it could be a change

It'll probably be more apparent whenever he actually makes it ingame

[limpid summit]

Oh I sort of see what you mean

“Them” could be the pieces he’s talking about

But no point in speculating about that

[sinful nimbus]

tbf this is the only time "they" has been used to refer to gendered Hollow Knight characters

Binary pronouns are always used

[cedar skiff]

phantom?

unless that’s considered ambiguous because we still dont rly know who speaks during that needolin afaik

[sinful nimbus]

Though grey with age, her frayed form suggested a being strung from Silk, one who welcomed a decisive end in combat over a slow decline.

[cedar skiff]

did i just hallucinate phantom getting they-ed at some point oh my

[plain gazelle]

no the journal entry is "Though grey with age, their frayed form suggested a being strung from Silk, one who welcomed a decisive end in combat over a slow decline."

[limpid summit]

Star 😭😭😭

[crimson patio]

Nowhere in the game did they use she for phantom lol

[tawdry flare]

theres the tank where they mIGHT be called sister by lace but im pretty sure that's phantom talking

[gentle aspen]

personally I never agreed with this take

[crimson patio]

“She spun us to break” and Lace is perfectly fine
It’s reasonable to think Phantom is the one talking cuz they’re the one who’s actually fraying

[tawdry flare]

why not

phantom is the doomer

[gentle aspen]

Not really?

[sinful nimbus]

Lace is the doomer

She's also not chillin in the silk pod

[gentle aspen]

Their dn dialogue entails wanting a death by combat

They’re not dooming

[frosty gate]

Lace is definitely the doomer but wtf is this talk

[gentle aspen]

the dialogue fits lace in my opinion more

phantom has accepted the situation while lace hasn’t

however I also do not like phantom gender discourse

it gets ugly fast and it basically entails repeating the same thing

[limpid summit]

Phantom is also in a tank and lace is the active thinker

[gentle aspen]

“Journal entry says they”
“Dream nail dialogue says her”

[limpid summit]

Her arm is out and stuff

[sinful nimbus]

Enby phantom headcanon when transmasc lace headcanon walks in

[gentle aspen]

what the fucj

[crimson patio]

God if I can even find a single instance of phantom being called “she” or “her” in the game maybe that 2nd point would have some merits

[gentle aspen]

you are peddling my headcanon as yours

[frosty gate]

I'm dying right now

[gentle aspen]

this is outrageous

[sinful nimbus]

God forbid someone fw your headcanon bro

[gentle aspen]

you know what

u right

I’n sorry

[gentle aspen]

Anyways to elaborate on this

the idea is that lace age discussion sucks right

a common criticism from those who don’t believe her to be eternally a child is the fact that this goes against the game’s themes

but I think just having her age does the same

she is still GMS’s daughter. The purpose of being spun as a child was to always be this and never change out of it

However, if Lace were to look within and realize she doesn’t identify with the female gender, it totally spits in the face of GMS. The person who constantly wants her child as daughters being male

it’s beautiful

[sinful nimbus]

And if you disagree you just don't want trans rep in the game 🥱

[gentle aspen]

okay but the point is that the dn dialogue is the instance people use

Hah... aha ha ha ha ha!
Congratulations, spider. Finally, I felt your sting, and you've bared the truth of my pathetic empty shell.

Head on. Climb up, up and away. You've earned your audience with the divine.
Face the holy mother who would fashion so cruel and crude a daughter as me.
After all... it's you that she wants... is it not

Why her... Mother...
See me cut! See me serve!
A child, too broken...
I will not fade! I will not take!
See me, your knight...
See me, your daughter.

[crimson patio]

“Why her, mother” as it’s referring to Hornet

Or is that not the one I’m supposed to look at

[sinful nimbus]

Why is Phantom being called she the only acceptable form of evidence when she's called a sister

[gentle aspen]

Wait

[sinful nimbus]

Those are both gendered

[gentle aspen]

I’m not done

This is to assert lace’s dialogue as asking why she is the way she is

[tawdry flare]

Hi not done, I'm zip!

[gentle aspen]

because she doesn’t believe her life to have merit

Show me strength, spider...
Forgotten...
Discarded...
Silk stretched thin...
Shell stiffened...
Claws quivering...
Free me from this fading fate...
Free me!

In contrast Phantom wants to be freed from that
there’s no questioning here, just statements and a plea for death

jesus christ that’s depressing

anyways

[sinful nimbus]

And when their silken mouths will open up
And just what words will come out but
"We wish we were dead" 🗣️

[gentle aspen]

Why us?
Why us, sister?
She spun us to break...
She spun us to fade...
This dialogue in question fits Lace as opposed to Phantom

She’s questioning her situation, and later on boldly goes “I won’t fade! I won’t take”

but again I’m willing to agree to disagree I just wished to put my reasoning out there

[crimson patio]

We don’t know when the memory recorded in the silk when Hornet play the needolin was from, though

There is a possibility that Phantom has not yet wanted to die then

But that’s just my opinion

I’ll agree to disagree

[sinful nimbus]

"If you ignore the characterization it actually makes perfect sense to attribute it to them" 🥀

[crimson patio]

Rude
There are things predate the present events that neither you nor I can know
Who’s to say Phantom was not just like Lace once

[limpid summit]

How TC wrote Hornet

[gentle aspen]

shut up

[sinful nimbus]

That'd be bizarre storytelling

If something aligns with character A's outlook more than Character B obviously the player will attribute it to character A (especially when that's also what the framing of the scene suggests)

Anything else is just an unnecessary assumption

[foggy fractal]

hi

[limpid summit]

Hi andy

[twin dragon]

I interpret it as lace asking and phantom answering

[cedar skiff]

well

[gentle aspen]

that seems a bit

unnecessarily complex

[twin dragon]

broddie 2 npcs talking

complex

😭

[gentle aspen]

I don’t think dream nail dialogue or needolin dialogue ever has two people speaking with no indicator who is who

[sinful nimbus]

With no indication of who's who yea kinda

[cedar skiff]

i am going to say that that needolin memory is a memory. in which phantom is in the rejuvenating tank. it wouldn’t be far off to say that took place before phantom decided yep i wanna fucking kill myself

[gentle aspen]

it is when the needolin doesn’t ever encapsulate a conversation

[cedar skiff]

but

[gentle aspen]

without any indicators to boot

[twin dragon]

Plus could make sense where lace got her nihilistic view from

[twin dragon]

fr goofy ass tc not making needolin dialogue indicators

2 of them are recreated doe

in this case

It's not clear but the possibility of them talking is there

Plus the way the dialogue is structured also leads me to believe this

[gentle aspen]

are there?

ah

[cedar skiff]

i know its likely intentionally ambiguous but its really annoying tbh

damn i forgot that word is also regarded in that way 😭

[edgy nebula]

i wonder what this means

all ours and none beyond but what do the other two mean

[twin dragon]

I see it as such:
Lace asking "Why us, sister, why us?
And then phantom follows up

[cedar skiff]

those are fire interpretations honestly i never considered it could be a two way conversation

maybe i am the bad guy

[twin dragon]

Its actually them both talking to mr mushroom

seeking answers from the herald

[edgy nebula]

i dont feel like it’s a two-sided conversation

[twin dragon]

I mean phantom is referred to as lace's sister at some point right?

or maybe she isn't idfk

[gentle aspen]

I hope phantom gets a fade

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think Needolin dialogue even has a set order

[twin dragon]

Lace could get her hatred towards her mother from meeting phantom

[sinful nimbus]

Which would make a coherent conversation of question/answer kinda bizarre

Also just unnecessarily obtuse

[edgy nebula]

it doesn’t

it’s a cool idea but i dont think it works personally

[twin dragon]

We can atribute each dialogue to a certain character if it fits

doe this time it fits both of them

[sinful nimbus]

The entire thing fits Lace

Which is who the framing of the scene suggests is talking

Phantom be recharging

[oak palm]

Why was bro in that pod anyways

[twin dragon]

though the entire thing about being frail and falling apart is phantom's thing

[edgy nebula]

i was just about to ask that how dare you

[twin dragon]

And it could explain why lace has such a deep hatred towards gms

[sinful nimbus]

Both silk children will do that

"Why US"

[sinful nimbus]

Does that need explaining

[oak palm]

Suck it loserrrr

[edgy nebula]

😡

[sinful nimbus]

GMS is like an awful person

She'd think what happened to Phantom is messed up regardless as well

[twin dragon]

Lace was born after most of gms's awful acts presumably and i don't think she'd atribute that to gms necessarily

[sinful nimbus]

Lace's creation was itself an awful act

She was made to be eternally loyal and eternally youthful

[twin dragon]

She's somehow aware of that

[sinful nimbus]

Like

Life? You're too generous! This weak, wasting existence. This was not life, just a husk shaped to act as a child.

[twin dragon]

not really sure

how that could be explained

[sinful nimbus]

She might just know because GMS made her like that/told her/wtv

I don't think it really matters

[twin dragon]

i doubt she'd tell lace that

if she's made to be what she's supposed to be

but gms seemingly failed as lace is overly nihilistic

[edgy nebula]

what are silk hearts exactly

[sinful nimbus]

"You should be loyal" seems like a fairly standard thing for an overcontrolling mother to say to her child

[twin dragon]

gms thing lore wtv

[edgy nebula]

it’s possible lace could know from one of them

[twin dragon]

that wouldn't explain how and why she was created

[edgy nebula]

since it drops from her in her second fight

[twin dragon]

all of them are related to gms and wtv boss they drop from

except bell beast

[sinful nimbus]

What

GMS created a child to be loyal told her that and now Lace knows that she's supposed to be loyal

[edgy nebula]

lace probably knows of her origins from some magic thing, or phantom told her or something

[cedar skiff]

making yourself a child that is cursed to be a child eternally that they remain emotionally dependent on you is insanely cruel

like lace is aware of it all and is still attached to gms and yearns for her validation

[twilit crest]

The real antagonist of Silksong is the church of song

[edgy nebula]

no im pretty sure it’s gms

[marble oasis]

Greyroot:

[sinful nimbus]

If only TC put in dialogue saying GMS is the true cause of everything or something

[twin dragon]

Being loyal is one thing, knowing that your entire existence is based on being a child is another one

[twin dragon]

She can't escape it

[oak palm]

The citadel exists because gms was an awful mother

[twin dragon]

Which is why gms's sudden "redemption" seems hella weird to me

[oak palm]

It's not really a redemption

[sinful nimbus]

TC played Ori one time and thought "hey I could pull that off" 🥀

And yeah its not a redemption

[twin dragon]

Sure, she could just be trying too hard to be a mother while being evil as shit in the process

It kinda left the impression of redemption seeing as how she risked her ass trying to save lace

Bringing the whole kingdom down even

And yet she held on

[sinful nimbus]

Not really a good thing

[twin dragon]

Seems to me a lil bit too much

Especially for something that she could see as a tool, or an object

[marble oasis]

idk the use of "from our silk, a child born loyal" rather than devoted or dutiful or obedient says something to me

loyal is more freely chosen

[twin dragon]

BORN loyal though

[marble oasis]

and spinning a child is her only method of having a family after the weavers

[twin dragon]

She accepts still

[marble oasis]

How would she know Hornet has the ability to escape the Abyss

And needs her strength to do it

[twin dragon]

Seems like gms cared about lace the way you would care if your keys fell down the sewers

[marble oasis]

Where are you all getting that she mistreats lace

[gentle aspen]

making lace in that way is mistreatment

[marble oasis]

She has no other method

[gentle aspen]

that’s besides the point

[marble oasis]

How

[gentle aspen]

she reduces lace to just “her daughter”

that’s the point of being made a child
she’s meant to be something gms always has control over as her other children left

[marble oasis]

She doesn’t treat lace as anything, she’s asleep

[gentle aspen]

it’s abusive

[twin dragon]

Thats why hornet talks

[sinful nimbus]

I would also make Lace that way

To mess with Lacenet fans

[twin dragon]

How many years would gms get in jail

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think they have laws for that

[marble oasis]

She already served her time

[twin dragon]

Shes commited crimes IN jail

[marble oasis]

Okay so she won’t get off for good behaviour

[twin dragon]

Ok but those crimes include slavery and murder of thousands

[twin dragon]

We do doe

[marble oasis]

Is it murder if they die in slavery

I guess she killed the Weaver descendants

[twin dragon]

She orchestrated the slavery so yes

Thats mainly on her

[sinful nimbus]

Slavery isn't even wrong by the games standards

[muted lantern]

Idk, gms is possessing people, I know a few folks who've been arrested for possession.

[twin dragon]

Even pk does that

[marble oasis]

Possession is 9/10ths of the law or something

[twin dragon]

And when is slavery represented as a good thing

[muted lantern]

"Foul creatures birthed into servitude. Their plight elicits no sympathy from me." -Hornet

[marble oasis]

I mean

[cedar skiff]

it isnt it just happens a lot

[marble oasis]

The Citadel is the one who put people into slavery

GMS just continued it

[cedar skiff]

also that hornet dialogue still doesn’t portray it as a good thing

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet says she doesn't care bout slavery homeslice 🥀

[marble oasis]

Haunting is different from the conditions of the Underworks

[muted lantern]

Was joking

[cedar skiff]

she literally describes it as a plight she just doesn’t gaf lol

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah she doesn't think ts is wrong

[marble oasis]

She thinks their plight is being born a fly not being born a slave

[sinful nimbus]

She takes after her father's racism towards maggots

[cedar skiff]

oh i see but that string of discussion just instills fear into me

[sinful nimbus]

PK is also portrayed as a good man

[cedar skiff]

anything nearing on morality discourse in these games does

[sinful nimbus]

idk what they were cooking

[twin dragon]

Broddie hornet could be considered evil since the first game she aint no saint

[cedar skiff]

well in hk its more reluctant but silksong wants to be more openly thematic about some damn deep subjects

[sinful nimbus]

No she couldn't what

Hornet killed vessels out of necessity

who tf walking away from HK thinking hornet is evil 😭

[marble oasis]

She swiped her needle at their feet and said dance for me hollow boy

[twin dragon]

In a long dead kingdom btw

[marble oasis]

Hollow they*

[sinful nimbus]

Said dead people were still being tortured

[muted lantern]

Important lore question.

[twin dragon]

Theyre literally corpses

[sinful nimbus]

Like she was very much trying to make sure the suffering doesn't get worse

[muted lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/hive-knight-bees-hk-hollow-knight-gif-8016209625652573639

[sinful nimbus]

That can feel stuff

[muted lantern]

How do they do this

[twin dragon]

Pretty sure they cant, can they?

Since theyre corpses

[sinful nimbus]

They can read any infected's dreamnail dialogue

[cedar skiff]

thats right were going back in time to the moment they wrote that hornet journal entry to get hornet morality discourse of the menu

[marble oasis]

Dunno

[sinful nimbus]

Bees should've been biomechanical

Augmented with hivesteel

[muted lantern]

Where is hive knight keeping all those fucking bees

[marble oasis]

He was forced to eat bees when he was a larva

[twin dragon]

Battle ready bee bars

[sinful nimbus]

Hive Knight can shoot out robot bees

[cedar skiff]

ive been saying craws and bees are connected

[sinful nimbus]

He births them

[cedar skiff]

the pinstress hive theory

[twin dragon]

Hornet couldnt know that

[marble oasis]

Three months into release btw

[muted lantern]

Isnt the queen the only member of a hive that can do that?

[sinful nimbus]

Its uh obvious

[sinful nimbus]

Clearly not

[cedar skiff]

its fun to scrape the bottom of the barrel when a lot of the discussions in the community circle around the same few topics anyway

[muted lantern]

Hornet of everyone would know the nature of infection.

[cedar skiff]

💔

[marble oasis]

Maybe he eats the larvae to let them incubate in his tummy

[sinful nimbus]

Barrel is 3 inches deep

[twin dragon]

Doubt since shed had nothing to do w it

[marble oasis]

Loving father ❤️

[sinful nimbus]

Grubfather parallel

[gentle aspen]

I don’t hate the connection

[twin dragon]

Vessel zote all over again

[gentle aspen]

I hate the fact the connection is even possible

[cedar skiff]

theres layers to this

[marble oasis]

Phantom is a bee???!1

[gentle aspen]

But this is literally just “similar attacks” again

[cedar skiff]

i think the narrative parallel is the only valid statement anyway the attacks are technically cut content

[gentle aspen]

we are not bringing back mantis lords trained thk type points

[cedar skiff]

thank you it was difficult picking a stock image that embodied my vision

[marble oasis]

Needs more matpat

[twin dragon]

And yet murdering the only ones who could actually try and stop the infection is a good thing

[sinful nimbus]

If she can murder them they aren't strong enough to take on THK yes

IE they'd only worsen the situation

[twin dragon]

I dont think theyd even reach anywhere near the seal if they cant get past hornet

[cedar skiff]

i think with the context of silksong hornet murdering vessels is more indicative of how she feels towards pk and the plan

it being an expression of her bitterness is more interesting to me than self defense

[marble oasis]

She probably thinks THK is the best to ever do it

If they can’t contain Radiance anyone else to try is just going to be worse

[cedar skiff]

what the fuck is she even defending herself from those vessels were all clearly weak bums that cannot compare to the vessel we play as

[twin dragon]

As pengu said shes testing em

But murder seemed unnenecessary

[frigid belfry]

wasnt it stated somewhere that vessels have the instinct to replace the failing thk

[twin dragon]

I could say she views the vessels as objects but i dont have much on that

[marble oasis]

They’re dead already who cares

[frigid belfry]

I may be misremembering but this would semi-justify the murder

[marble oasis]

Ones who left Hallownest were drawn back by its cry

[frigid belfry]

If hornet had not killed them, they would’ve endangered thousands to come by being faulty

[marble oasis]

Or the leaking light

[twin dragon]

There are 3 fucking dreamers AND thk

[cedar skiff]

it wouldve been funny as hell to see a vessel corpse in the blasted steps

[frigid belfry]

🤷‍♂️

[twin dragon]

They are NOT coming near the black egg

[cedar skiff]

incredible discourse fabricator

[marble oasis]

Could you fucking imagine if in one of the thousands of body bags in Bilewater there’s just a Vessel

[twin dragon]

Also how did thk get to the wastes in the first place?

Tk mb

[cedar skiff]

honestly considering the amount of shit ari had to draw and how many likely accidental parallels there are to certain hk bugs, its really surprising there isnt an accidental vessel lookalike

show me that damn sketchbook already

[marble oasis]

There’s probably a route out of the Abyss to Deepnest considering we see the most Vessel corpses there

[twin dragon]

Vessel corpses are almost everywhere

Iirc

[marble oasis]

He probably did make some but they noticed it and didn’t include them

[cedar skiff]

yeah

[marble oasis]

Five in Nosk’s lair, Mothwing Cloak Vessel and BV

[twin dragon]

Even then thats deepnest

Not the surface

[marble oasis]

Yeah but getting out of the Abyss is the hardest part

[cedar skiff]

it would have been an excellent silkpost to fabricate a fake vessel corpse in the background of like fucking bilewater

[marble oasis]

From there the path is simple

[twin dragon]

Tk seemingly went through greenpath to reach howling cliffs

[twin dragon]

I mean they all died

So no its not simple at all lmfao

[marble oasis]

Airplane with red dots

[cedar skiff]

i wonder if any of the vessels ever got to interacting with residents

i dont think any dialogue apart from hornet implies such

[limpid summit]

Yeah Hunter has seen them

TK is probably just more sociable

[barren beacon]

Could Greyroot be connceted to WL? Their eyes are similar

[muted lantern]

They seem to be a similar sort of creature, though white lady seems to be some kind of pale version of the species. Kinda like how pk is a pale wyrm? idk, thats just speculation.

[barren beacon]

Thanks

[muted lantern]

They are both roots, but wheter thats like a single species or just like a type of creature is uncertain.

[twilit crest]

Ok😭

I doubt the setting of the game would’ve been even remotely as treacherous without the church

Gms didn’t build the blasted steps yk

[narrow horizon]

the villain, as always, is industrialization and the various stages of capitalism in society

[chrome lintel]

That reminds me of the zote is greyroot's son theory
White lady's offsprings are similar to zote

[narrow horizon]

also hot mom goddesses

[jade terrace]

Wdym by hot mom goddess?

[narrow horizon]

[jade terrace]

oh you mean grandsexy silk?

[narrow horizon]

grandsexy silk 😭

[jade terrace]

Or the white lady?

i mean they r both hot mom godesses

[narrow horizon]

true but she not a villain

[jade terrace]

hhhhhmmmmm

[narrow horizon]

radiance

[jade terrace]

[narrow horizon]

not a mom

but like

[jade terrace]

radiance is a moth god

wait no

goth

god + moth

how are they a mom

i dont remember the radiance having children

OH.

now i get what u mean

[narrow horizon]

😭

[pale narwhal]

a villain would be more apt.
GMS is one villain, The Citadel itself and the Weavers that built it another

[pale narwhal]

Flukemarm

[marble oasis]

Moths

[jade terrace]

im dumb xd

[noble reef]

do we know exactly what the modelled or motteld skarr (no idea how to spell this dang word) are

[muted lantern]

Skarr with some kinda of disease or skin condition thats seen as a curse by their culture. It also seems to protect them from the haunting.

Also it's mottled

[noble reef]

well it's most likely not a disease or skin condition if it protects them from the haunting ain it?

yea the other non-mottled skarr may call it that, but who says they tried to like, research it, they just banish these guys and call it a day

[muted lantern]

We don't really know, we just know that they have these marks on their shell, and arent affected by the haunting at least as far as we know, it could not be inherently related to the mottling but more that that they are outcasts who werent caught up in the haunting like the main tribe. We just don't know. It could be some kind of curse, but we really don't have much information.

[noble reef]

true

unfortunate, it seems interesting tbh

[muted lantern]

Might be expanded upon in dlc

[noble reef]

hopefully

[regal crow]

What’s the story with the bellhart curse? Is it slow possession by silk?

[muted lantern]

It's a targetted curse by widow, seemingly pulling them into the hivemind whilst also paralyzing them.

[regal crow]

Ahhhhh

[stray fog]

New skong cutscene

Check dsn

[craggy smelt]

it's reeeal

[oblique rampart]

They aren't children

[stray grove]

Children means offspring

[marble oasis]

The folk of my tribe were born from a light. Light similar to Essence, similar to that powerful blade, though much brighter still.

They’re not eternal children like Lace but they were created directly from Radiance

[stray grove]

GMS also at one point considered the Weavers her children and those aren’t eternal children either

The Mosskin call Unn their mother and were created via a similar mechanism to the Moth Tribe

[oblique rampart]

They are like made from the light of radiance or essence

[stray grove]

So it’s not inaccurate to call the Moths Radiance’s children

They were created by her and from her

[oblique rampart]

That is yes but there are not her real children or offspring

[stray grove]

By that logic GMS’ “children” aren’t real children either

[oblique rampart]

Also how were the mosskin spun into the real world from unns dream

[stray grove]

The same way she made all of Greenpath

[oblique rampart]

Like how

[stray grove]

The same way Radiance made the Moths

[marble oasis]

They simply walked out of the dream

[oblique rampart]

Unn can't control essence can she?

[marble oasis]

Maybe

[stray grove]

Evidently she can

[stray fog]

Aren't there green dream particles

[stray grove]

She created an entire ecosystem from her dreams

[oblique rampart]

She made them using essence

[stray grove]

She has green essence yes

[stray grove]

The Mosskin were also made from essence

When they crossed the veil they became flesh and soul

[oblique rampart]

In lake of unn?

[stray grove]

In Godhome

[oblique rampart]

Cuz were already in a dream of godseeker

[stray grove]

Godseeker essence is gold

[oblique rampart]

She can't control essence can she?

[stray grove]

Clearly she can

Unn created an entire ecosystem from her dreams

That would require some degree of “Essence control” would it not

[oblique rampart]

It would

Aight I get it

Why did the weavers sealed gms?

[marble oasis]

Seer literally says they weren’t born from Essence

[oblique rampart]

When does she?

[marble oasis]

.

“Light similar to Essence” means it wasn’t Essence

[craggy smelt]

she says 'Light similar to Essence, similar to that powerful blade, though much brighter still.'
so to the extent that Radiance is not exactly like typical essence, it's that she's much brighter - some exceptionally bright and powerful variety
she sheds Essence when you beat on her, and when she's ripped open it's all light inside

[marble oasis]

Yes but my point is they came directly from Radiance

[craggy smelt]

'born from a light' is a condensed description of what happens, it can well accomodate the idea that they were created from her dreams, like the mosskin

they could also be said to be 'born from Unn'

we know Essence can become Soul, that dreams can become real things, even in small ways (charms, etc.)

gods would be doing a much more powerful version of that - making living beings from their dreams

[craggy smelt]

there's a couple of mentions of them finding her rule burdensome, wanting to escape her gaze and be free of her
we don't get a lot of specifics
the First Sinner seems to resent her for lying about the Weavers' origins

[stray grove]

Oh come on

She’s talking about Radiance

Radiance literally gives off turns into and explodes into essence particles

[barren beacon]

Radiance is similar to the Dream Nail

They likely can keep essence within them just like Dream Nail does

[stray grove]

The blade of the dream nail is also made of essence

[barren beacon]

"Similar to"

[stray grove]

That’s not a meaningful distinction

[barren beacon]

Surprisingly Radiance apparently is even brighter

[stray grove]

In universe essence only refers to the fragments of light dreams and memories are composed of

But the things described as similar to it in this dialogue all behave the same way and have the same properties

So we just call them all essence

[marble oasis]

I still think it’s a meaningful distinction to say they were born out of Radiance than to say Radiance formed them out of Essence or something

Like that gives them a closer relationship

[stray grove]

That’s what people mean when they say Essence in this context though

Radiance made them from her Essence

[marble oasis]

Yeah but I mean they’re her children rather than her creations

[stray grove]

They’re both

In universe the moths never call her a mother nor does she call them her children so creations is arguably the more accurate term

I don’t mind calling them children as they’re “born” of her and the Mosskin who have a similar relationship to Unn refer to her as a “mother” but ultimately the distinction is rather meaningless

When you’re a literal deity capable of creating life the line blurs anyway

[marble oasis]

Clearly the children see meaning in it when First Sinner hates Silk for lying about it

[stray grove]

GMS did consider them children and in magically altering their DNA using her own lifeforce one could argue she was right in a manner of speaking
The issue isn’t that she considered them children (as fucked up as her understanding of motherhood may have been), it’s that she lied. She told them they were her divine children (which she probably believed) and kept the truth of their creation from them. They also had plenty of other reasons to be unhappy with her but that’s besides the point

In any case the circumstances of the Moths’ creation are never explained and they and Radiance are never established to have a familial relationship like GMS had with her children

Even the Mosskin don’t really interact with their “mother” and it’s certainly not unheard of for people to refer to themselves as the children of a creation deity (even irl)

The difference is GMS wanted like, actual dolls to call daughters

Her entire identity is built on her being a mother figure

[oblique rampart]

Bro I said from radiances light or essence

[oblique rampart]

But we know radiance made them right?

[stray grove]

They were born from her light whatever that means

You could interpret it as deliberate creation which is what most people do, it could also mean they appeared spontaneously

[oblique rampart]

But do we have any idea how did they died out?

[stray grove]

Not really but the kingdom is in ruin and most people are dead

It’s been a very long time

[hoary oracle]

so all the siblings in the void and vessels that escaped had different horn styles, but the nosk we fight looks exactly like the knight

im just wondering if theres multiple veseels with the same horns

because of that

[marble oasis]

the normal nosk we fight stole our face

winged nosk is when he starts poking around on our memory

[stray grove]

It does that during both fights, that’s how it hunts

The reason it copies TK in the first encounter is either because at that point TK had no emotional connections for Nosk to exploit so it just defaulted to stealing its face or Nosk was too weak to read TK’s mind and needed the boost from Godly focus

[stray grove]

There are but it’s just because TC is lazy

[hoary oracle]

oh

[stray grove]

In the P4 cutscene there are like five Vessels

They’re all copy pasted

[fresh badger]

Nosk isnt a corpse wearer, its a shapeshifter

[stray grove]

And in the Birthplace too

[hoary oracle]

ohh

[marble oasis]

do you have to do second hornet before nosk?

[heavy gyro]

Yeah because its p5

[stray grove]

For regular no for Winged yes

[whole holly]

it doesn't seem like they had children

[terse warren]

late reply but i've never seen the second theory and i highly doubt that's the case

most likely it's the first one, TK had no real feelings for anyone if much feeling at all so nosk just copied it rather than hornet in fight two, which tk does clearly have a bond with by the end/silksong

[stray grove]

I listed both explanations because they’re both canonically viable, if you prefer one over the other that’s fine

[terse warren]

i mean it's not like TK has such a great mind to be deciphered

so i don't really see how the second one would work

[whole holly]

i kinda wish hornet got things like Weaversong in Silksong, since Knight sees more of weaver's accomplishments than hornet kinda, not including silk skills and Eva, i mean Weaver Tools