sk-lore

[keen raven]

and pale king claims he's the one who brought the bugs into being civilized

[twilit crest]

Radiance doesn’t seem to have a goal besides just destroying hn. Which I guess adds some weight to your argument

But it doesn’t seem necessarily anti-pk

[keen raven]

gms = control freak
radiance = petty

[frigid belfry]

this channel is so dead

no ones typed here for a day

😔

[wet oriole]

I could but Im shy👉 👈

[dense sphinx]

I DID IT

[dusk skiff]

All I’ve done is watch the mossbag video so I can educate people on that

[cunning veldt]

if the ""ABYSS CREATURE"" found in that lifeblood core charm in the abyss be mentioned, most certainly it will be about if he created or brought lifeblood of a distant land, it would be so peak ngl

[calm roost]

I HAVE A THEORY! What if lace was a onion, look....

[dusk skiff]

I see more of a turnip

[calm roost]

Maybe...

[muted lantern]

Garlic

[gloomy salmon]

Garlic turnip onion croissant

How delicious

Throws up

[quartz heath]

Wasn’t there 2 sk lore channels?

[twilit crest]

I ate one

[quartz heath]

Just based of your name

I would assume

[stray fog]

No

[lusty stratus]

It’s me

[celest marsh]

pantaloons

[thin furnace]

I have a question

This shade here is the Hollow Knight when it was still normal, right? Ive been seeing people call it the player character from the first game and that definetly isnt true i think.

Though, how has the Hollow Knight become the shade lord we see flash a few times?

Are all the siblings (The knight, hollow knight, and all the dead siblings) the same being?

[dire lynx]

it is the player character, their horns just change when they leave their shell

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-gif-23741519

as you can see, the hollow knights shade is very different

[thin furnace]

Oh, I see. its been a long time since I beat that game lol. Mb

[ember river]

That's the Knight, it's the player character from HK

Wait nevermind they answered

[robust wagon]

The hollow knight actually likely isn't apart of the thing flashed on screen in sister of the void, since its shade isn't seen, and because the ending where that thing originally appeared (the embrace the void ending in hollow knight), the hollow knight escapes the black egg temple alive

[still sedge]

Mb

[warm plaza]

I'm gonna be real, in my headcanon, Dream No More is the one Silksong takes place after

I have a couple of problems with the Godhome endings being the true one

1. I think that the final fight taking place inside the Hollow Knight's dream is much more impactful on a storytelling prospective than just "a random statue found in the sewers"
2. I just don't like the pantheons in godhome having a lore because I just see it as a gameplay feature that doesn't really need a story

Plus, I think that the vessels turn into the Shade Lord anyway, even in Dream No More

[stray grove]

Embrace the Void is a terrible ending and there’s no shortage of issues to discuss regarding it

Sister of the Void is ambiguous in which HK ending it follows, I agree with Dream No More being the better of the two canonically viable options

DNM is just the best possible conclusion to the narrative in every way imaginable

[edgy river]

The pantheons do have lore tho, and tons of it

But I agree, I prefer DNM

[viscid ridge]

I personally see Embrace the Void as an AU. It can happen, but Dream no More is a way better ending.

It doesn't mean the lore in godhome is meaningless, but dream no more is better

[edgy river]

I like to think they made Silksongs ending in that way SPECIFICALLY to make both DNM and EtV as valid endings

Silksong is a sequel to both of those at once and i like that ambiguity

Makes all the lore relevant both with and without pantheon

[runic frigate]

Within the Citadel’s calcified crown,
Hornet lunges through the empty air.
Masks scream, mandibles falter,
Sherma’s neck snaps like brittle silk.

One merciless arc of needle and thread
his crowned head is cleaved from command,
tumbling huskward as the hive goes mute,
and Hornet stands amid the buzzing dead.

[dire lynx]

what?

[stray grove]

Well done ChatGPT

[silk dirge]

what are we cooking here

[warm plaza]

I know but I don't really think it needs lore

The lore is cool but I don't like to imagine the bossrush being canon as it's more of a gameplay function

[whole holly]

Hollow Knight is relevant to this day and has lot of replay-ability partly because of Godhome, that made non-linear game even bigger expanse

[steady otter]

just wanted to ask, since the snail shaman here says when he grants the knight vengful soul that it is his special ability then why does Groal in silksong acquire it from a different snail shaman

[gentle aspen]

different shamans can come up with the idea to launch burning soul as a projectile

[whole holly]

why doesn't hornet get soul spells if Groal and Soulmaster have them?

[gentle aspen]

because that’s not how she uses soul

[whole holly]

is she incapable of using soul, what would happen if she somehow absorbed Soul Spell, would it turn into Silk Skill?

[gentle aspen]

I just told you that isn’t how she uses soul, where did you get “is she incapable of using soul from”

Silk is a form of specialized soul weavers can spin

[whole holly]

that is non-specific answer though, like does she choose not to use soul as spell or can she not use raw form of soul?

and what if she somehow consumed shaman soul spell, what would happen?

[gentle aspen]

the answer doesn’t need to be specific because that isn’t the way she was taught to use soul

If she wasn’t taught nor does she have the inborn talent of consuming shaman spells to take them she can’t do it

[whole holly]

talent isn't inborn, Groal and Soulmaster did it, can hornet learn todo same?

[gentle aspen]

why ask a question if you already have an answer in mind

both of those individuals literally warped their bodies and did experiments to be able to use one singular spell

[gentle aspen]

Truth be told I don’t see a point in answering your questions since you clearly want her to be able to use shaman spells

[whole holly]

i do?

[whole holly]

Groal did experiments? i though he just ate the spell

[viscid ridge]

Whats the question

[whole holly]

personally i think it might be transformed into Silk Skill that she can naturally utilize but that's just me

[whole holly]

.

[viscid ridge]

Either Hornet has no interest in using spells, or her silk abilities overrides her soul abilities

My guess is she can probably use soul spells, but prefers to use silk instead

[whole holly]

that is interesting, but it would have been nice to have specific answer, i know i am not only one to have this question

[viscid ridge]

Yeah it would, but i dont think it really adds anything if we knew. But i wouldn't be surprised if she could

[low oracle]

I would say her "nature" as a Weaver would limit her to silk skills only. The reasoning behind this is quite simple. The Pure Vessel can use spells that are implied to come from the Pale King (compare the White Palace and the spells). However there would be no reason for the Pale King to not also teach these spells to Hornet if she was capable of such powers. Additionally, Hornet focuses with silk, not the basic form of soul. I doubt she is doing so because she choses to focus that specific way without reason.

Both could be true, however my argument makes much more sense to me.

Additionally, the vessels and snail shamans are both made of void. They also both use spells. That doesn't explain the spells from the Soul Sanctum or (presumably) the Pale King, but it's another detail worth mentioning. And the Pale King is a higher being, while the Soul Sanctum obviously struggled with their use of Soul ("To achieve a pure focus, is it even possible"-Lore Tablet)

[viscid ridge]

Yeah definitely, amost any interpretation could be true, but i think the most simple explanation is probably true

[heavy gyro]

Snail shamans aren't void

[viscid ridge]

A small correction snail shamans arent void

We see they are actually slimey from up close

More like a black snail instead of void

[stray grove]

Hornet’s silk and soul are indeed described as “inseparably bound, her life force fused with her thread”. So yes, she can only use silk for spellcasting. She is able to absorb soul from other bugs in a similar manner to TK (likely an ability inherited from their father) but her pale shell seems to use this to synthesize more silk rather than dealing with raw soul directly.

That being said, silk is soul, as we are repeatedly told, and there is functionally little difference between silk magic and soul magic (Weavers even have literal soul lasers that they call “silklight” when it’s clearly just soul), and both are capable of generating runes, teleportation, etc.

PK had absolutely no reason to train Hornet, he wasn’t in her life. So that’s not an argument. The reason Hornet uses the spells she does is simply because she was trained by the Weavers.

The Snail Shamans are not Void and the Vessels being Void is irrelevant here as it’s the pale shell that gives them the ability to focus soul. Hornet also has a pale shell, she has the same father and it’s the same ability.

[whole holly]

so if hornet consumed soul spells from shamans, like Groal and Soulmaster did, would she turn them into Silk Skills?

[stray grove]

Probably

Hornet is already capable of using Shaman magic so it’s not a compatibility issue

Both Elegy of the Deep and the runes granted by the Shaman Crest are examples of this

[whole holly]

Shaman Crest/Elegy of Deep is hardly same as Shaman Soul Spells

[whole holly]

what runes?

[stray grove]

I mean, they are lol

[viscid ridge]

Yeah i agree elegy of the deep isn't comparable, but i still agree with the point that she can probably use shaman spells

[stray grove]

Shaman Charm description says it empowers silk skills using runes. These runes can be seen in-game but appear very briefly so it might be better to pull up a sprite sheet, they’re clearly soul though

[stray grove]

I mean it’s soul magic

It’s shaman magic

They do the same thing in the red memory cutscene

[low oracle]

Then tell me about the one in crystal peaks being absorbed in a pretty interesting way. Or you know, the one in the overgrown mound dripping identically to the Kingmoulds (which were for sure made of void).

[whole holly]

it is just tunes that have special effect

[viscid ridge]

It can be explained by the shamans using void. You dont have to be void to use void abilities, like pale king, and the vassels of the steelhearts

[stray grove]

Bell Hermit is dripping too, that’s like facial hair or something. It’s also not identical
The AM Shaman says he’s not Void, and the Silksong Shamans call it a fixation meaning they’re not Void either. The reason the Crystal Peaks Shaman explodes into black balls is because it has black skin, those are snail bits

[stray grove]

They’re not using Void

The HK Shamans don’t use it

They don’t even know what it is

Silksong Shamans have a fixation with it but don’t use Void spells

[viscid ridge]

They know what void is, they just haven't been to the abyss as far as i know

[whole holly]

Shaman Crest is soul imprint which is not same as Soul Spells

[stray grove]

He says he doesn’t know where TK got this power from and describes its essence as having melded with the spell, he clearly doesn’t know what Void is

If he did he’d say “oh that’s void, cool”

Rather than “dunno where you got this but neat”

[viscid ridge]

And i mean 2 of the void spells in hollow knight come directly from the shamans. They definitely dabble with it, but also haven't been to the abyss before, which as of know i think isn't really a problem since we know it can be summoned

[stray grove]

Runes are soul. It might not be exactly the same as spells but it’s still shaman magic

[whole holly]

hornet seems to automatically turn soul into silk

[stray grove]

Did you read the dialogue

[stray grove]

This is true

[low oracle]

If we are agreeing, why do you phrase it like an explanation? In one of my previous messages I quit eclearly explained what silk/soul is.

[viscid ridge]

I think its more of describing the ancient civilization spell, not the void specifically

[whole holly]

Spell is important distinction

[low oracle]

Runes are whatever they were made from, both silk and soul.

[stray grove]

Shaman runes are soul. Context.

[viscid ridge]

Yeah runes can be anything, i dont think its specific. But it fits with shamans being jack of all trades when it comes to magic.

[low oracle]

The runes in hornets room are silk.

So are the runes of first sinner.

[stray grove]

Not necessarily. If Hornet can use Shaman magic and silk and soul are interchangeable then she should logically be able to adapt their spells into silk skills

[viscid ridge]

We see a lot of soul seals in hk, aswell as silk seals

[stray grove]

Not talking about Weaver runes, why are you responding to a message if you don’t know what the context is

[whole holly]

that was my conclusion as well, but spell is not exact same as crest, even if they both have soul

[stray grove]

I agree they’re not exactly the same

[stray grove]

You know he literally explains how that works right

[whole holly]

i disagree, personally

[stray grove]

TK uses the shaman bodies as a catalyst to merge the spell with its own essence

[low oracle]

Does that count as shaman magic? The crest is not really the same as "magic/spells" directly, and the snare is a tool, not her own ability.

[stray grove]

AM Shaman clearly says the Void for these spells comes from TK

NOT the Shamans

[viscid ridge]

Yeah i know, i just think you are making the wrong conclusions based on the dialogue, but if you interpret it that way all the power to you

[stray grove]

So you agree that’s literally what he says but arbitrarily believe it’s the wrong conclusion

Uhm ok then guess TC just had him lie for some reason

[viscid ridge]

Its not

[low oracle]

The Knight could also simply use its own void together with the void from the Shamans. Otherwise they wouldn't need them to upgrade their spells.

[viscid ridge]

No need to be rude about it

[stray grove]

What's this? My vengeful gift has warped within you. You've twisted it into something... else.

Ohohohoh! I knew it. My friend! You're a marvel. Your essence has melded with the spell.
You must have found a powerful source to transform it in such a unique, expressive way.

[whole holly]

Shaman clearly expresses shock or new reaction to void based spells

[stray grove]

He also says it’s unique

If this is something they were capable of doing it wouldn’t be lmao

Shamans never use void spells you made that up

Even the SS ones don’t use void spells they just have a fixation with it

But the HK ones literally don’t know what it is so

[viscid ridge]

You can think that, but based on what we learned in ss and what we know from hk i don't think its the correct interpretation

[whole holly]

and they opened portal to void, not void based spell directly

[low oracle]

Shamans never use spells??? That argument implies we have an example showing their use of "normal" spells, which we don't.

[whole holly]

shamans are not shown to use void spells

[stray grove]

You can’t just ignore the dialogue because you don’t like it

[low oracle]

Shamans aren't shown to use any spells.

[stray grove]

No?

[whole holly]

but it makes sense for Knight to do so and all the Shamans become fixated on void because Knight's influence, maybe HK shaman spread word? since SS takes place after HK

[stray grove]

The soul spells in HK are all explicitly confirmed to be Shaman spells it doesn’t need to be shown directly

When it comes to Void spells the Shaman expresses surprise describes TK’s essence as having melded with the spell and calls it unique

[low oracle]

Why would you use your own "flesh" (void in my opinion) to use a spell?

[whole holly]

but we can still deduct that they are capable of soul spells since we know shamans are capable of it, same can't be said about void spells

[stray grove]

This is circular reasoning

You can’t use the conclusion that they are Void as evidence for your claim

[whole holly]

where does Flesh come from, knight uses void spells and void is his essence

[stray grove]

Even the SS Shamans describe it as a fixation

Why would they describe the thing they’re made of as their fixation

[whole holly]

i think Snail Shaman fixation comes from Void being Popularized by Knight on accident, maybe they can sense beings capable of spells because we know they can sense soul of other shamans, if knight got spells like shamans, it makes sense for him to be sensed too

[stray grove]

I’m not sure about that

[whole holly]

?

[low oracle]

My evidence is the dead Kingmoulds, the dead Shaman in QG, the Shaman in CP/SSanctum, and their affliction with void.

[stray grove]

I’ve explained why none of that is evidence

And I’ve also presented several pieces of evidence to the contrary

If you’re going to continue to ignore that then this won’t go anywhere

[whole holly]

but not all black streaks and black particles are void though

no eyes isn't void

[spark valve]

Our power's all of soul

[low oracle]

Which were what, except for "Beard looks similar to melted void face, ignoting that the Kingmoulds also look alike."

[stray grove]

Kingsmoulds don’t look alike

[low oracle]

Yes.

[whole holly]

yes as in, yes they are?

[stray grove]

Shamans Void in the big 25 crazy

[spark valve]

Our power's all of soul

What's this? My vengeful gift has warped within you. You've twisted it into something... else.
Ohohohoh! I knew it. My friend! You're a marvel. Your essence has melded with the spell.
You must have found a powerful source to transform it in such a unique, expressive way.

That scream? Ooohh, distorted in such a way...** It's not within the skills of us snails to do such a thing**.
Wherever you draw this new power from,** it's not a place my kind ever thought to look**.

[stray grove]

Yeah those are exactly the same good job everything stating they aren’t Void just goes out the window now

[whole holly]

void tenrils and black clumps that look like beard on hermit are not same, void streaks aren;t enough

[stray grove]

I posted all of this they ignored it

[low oracle]

Not all black things are void, Tiso isn't for example.

[whole holly]

so, in conclusion, we have no hard evidence that Shamans are Void

[low oracle]

Did you look at the Kingmould picture....?

[spark valve]

you weren't joking lol

[low oracle]

We have no hard evidence against that either.

[spark valve]

we do

[whole holly]

pictures looking alike don't change fact that it isn't applicable evidence

[whole holly]

bad argument

[spark valve]

you can't just pretend not to see the hard evidence against it then say it doesn't exist

[low oracle]

Then your argument is just as bad.

[stray grove]

Ok no even if that were true then the burden of proof is still on you

[spark valve]

this evidence can't discount me because I can't read

[stray grove]

It can’t be proven but it can’t be disproven isn’t reasoning

[low oracle]

It can be either a coincidence, or not. One could also theorize that Bell hermit is beginning to decay into its original form.

[stray grove]

Ok actually just pretending not to see the evidence this is hilarious

[spark valve]

Our power's all of soul

What's this? My vengeful gift has warped within you. You've twisted it into something... else.
Ohohohoh! I knew it. My friend! You're a marvel. Your essence has melded with the spell.
You must have found a powerful source to transform it in such a unique, expressive way.

That scream? Ooohh, distorted in such a way...** It's not within the skills of us snails to do such a thing**.
Wherever you draw this new power from,** it's not a place my kind ever thought to look**.

[stray grove]

This is the fourth time ts has been posted bro

[spark valve]

yeah

but like

[whole holly]

i have evidence that Shamans are all soul based, they state it "Our power's all of soul", they show unfamiliarity to void in first game, and describe it as fixation in second game, not every black particle is void, similarity doesn't really change that, no eyes enemy also has black streaks

[low oracle]

I already replied. What if the Knight used its own void combined with the flesh/void of the snail shamans?

[whole holly]

is she void

[spark valve]

then it wouldn't be unique

[low oracle]

She COULD be afflicted by void, but likely only bled/cried.

[gentle aspen]

Hi guys

[spark valve]

just making shit up

[whole holly]

hey

[gentle aspen]

nvm it’s void shaman shut

[stray grove]

Correction you replied to one of the things there by making up some bullshit that doesn’t make any sense

[gentle aspen]

gonna backread

[whole holly]

same goes for shamans for different reasons

[low oracle]

Not all black particles are void?

[spark valve]

I didn't say they were

[gentle aspen]

alright so @low oracle if you keep ignoring evidence I’m going to have to warn you

[low oracle]

Our power's all of soul = Our power is based on soul, as in, spells require soul.

[spark valve]

no it means all their power is soul

[stray grove]

You know what they say about HK fans

[whole holly]

solely in fact

[gentle aspen]

Agaib

If you keep ignoring evidence

I’ll have to warn you

That’s your last chance mate

[spark valve]

'all our power is soul'
'see what they actually mean is only some of their power is soul'

[low oracle]

Sorry for not thinking the exact same way everyone else does I guess? This is a discussion and I pretty clearly stated my opinion on the evidence. So what is it that I'm apparently doing wrong?

[gentle aspen]

You are ignoring evidence and making up reasons for it to not be valid

That’s not a matter of opinion that’s a matter of breaking channel rules

[low oracle]

I'm having an opinion of the way I interpret said evidence.

[gentle aspen]

you are literally taking an iron clad statement of “our power’s all of soul” and going “but what if the shamans are void”

That’s not an interpretation

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not entirely sure this would be a justified reason to warn someone but uh that's not how reading comprehension works

[stray grove]

It’s my opinion that PK actually killed Radiance and the entire first game takes place in her dream

[gentle aspen]

That’s literally just ignoring

[spark valve]

so true

[low oracle]

Which rules am I breaking? I want to follow them, but I don't see where I am doing wrong.

[gentle aspen]

ignoring evidence is against channel rules as I said already

[low oracle]

I'm saying that;
"Our power's all of soul" could mean that all Spells (Spells are their powers) are made of soul/require soul.

[gentle aspen]

And yet you are making the claim that they are void

[spark valve]

except that's not a remotely sane reading and other shit indicates they aren't void

e.g. if they were void tk's spell transformations wouldn't be unique

and mutating spells wouldn't be beyond their abilities

and it wouldn't be a place they never thought to look

this just isn't ambiguous and you not liking it doesn't change what the facts are

[low oracle]

I have a different way of understanding the evidence, which isn't "ignoring", but rather "thinking differently". You don't have to get mad at someone not being completely of the same opinion as you.

[gentle aspen]

I’m not mad I’m explaining to you that you aren’t following the rules

and it’s disingenuous to go “I’m just thinking differently and you’re just mad because my opinion isn’t the same”

There are many times where I disagree with people here but they actually follow the channel’s rules and don’t claim anger on the part of those they debate

[gentle aspen]

I am well aware of the channel pins

[low oracle]

Look at the fourth bullet point.

[spark valve]

trying to minimod a mod is crazy

[gentle aspen]

You realize this goes both ways yes

[low oracle]

What would the other way look like?

[gentle aspen]

I am treating your ideas with respect, however I am telling you that ignoring evidence isn’t allowed

which you are doing

[low oracle]

Ignoring evidence Having a different understanding of the evidence

[half zenith]

To put it this way -if you walked into a serious Pokémon lore channel and insisted that the ash coma theory was real, that would be blatantly ignoring canon

[gentle aspen]

You are literally reading evidence of the shamans saying they’re not void and going “but what if they are void?”

[low oracle]

I don't even know what you are talking about.

[spark valve]

in no timeline do they say "oh ok I'll stop ignoring evidence" just ignore them

[half zenith]

Yeah please mute this person, they’re deliberately arguing in bad faith

[spark valve]

snail shamans not being void is a pretty settled question leave the channel open for anything else

[versed bloom]

wait i just popped in here whats going on

[low oracle]

The "Our power is all of soul" is something I responded to already.

[half zenith]

I wanna move on and discuss how cool a cut thing would have been

[gentle aspen]

you may do so

[low oracle]

A disagreement being "Rule breaking" apparently.

[hybrid shadow]

Gem Alert

[crimson schooner]

Just argue in a dm not in here

[versed bloom]

what cut thing?

[low oracle]

Do you mean "Strung to serve" ?

[half zenith]

No actually

[low oracle]

aha

[half zenith]

I mean The Gloom zone as a concept. I know it got replaced by Bilewater and the Abyss fills many of the dark zone niches, but -a dark tangle of thorns and purple poison would make for a great Deepnest alike. Idk from the little concept art there is I don’t think the atmosphere can quite be replicated by anything currently existing

[spark valve]

ducts mostly works

the barnaks blending in with environment

[half zenith]

Yeah and they didn’t do anything with it

It could have been an amazing survival horror esque challenge if the zone actually had quests and bosses in it and was bigger than like two parts

But because there’s nothing in the zone it’s just annoying, not scary

I see the potential, but nothing is done with it

[gentle aspen]

potential area?

[spark valve]

it has uh

trash minigames

mister mushroom

the trait of being mandatory because fuck you

[half zenith]

I mean the fact that they made an amazing unsettling scary atmosphere with the Ducts and did nothing with it

But yeah with The Gloom concept, while it’s assets were recycled into individual parts, the atmosphere isn’t quite like anything currently in the game

[sinful nimbus]

And flea bounce

[spark valve]

did I stutter

[sinful nimbus]

Flea bounce is the peakest of the mid

It gets you into that flow state

[half zenith]

I really hope the Ducts gets slightly expanded upon when Pharloom Bay etc etc gets added, because right now there’s nothing in it that truly utilizes its atmosphere

I feel the same about Whiteward tbh -its an abandoned hospital/lab, it has no right being as small as it is

[foggy fractal]

flea minigames are all automatically trash because isn't there

[sinful nimbus]

He lives on in our stomachs 😔

And our nail

needle

wtv

[lethal pier]

whose silhouette is this

[foggy fractal]

random bug with one horn

[cedar skiff]

chill on flea juggle

flea dodge is the evil we should be focusing on

[sinful nimbus]

ngl I was thinking of flea juggle when I said flea bounce

Flea bounce is mid

[edgy river]

Zotes dad

[edgy river]

Which is which

Is flea bounce the pogo one?

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[edgy river]

Oh

It's fine but too easy

I just hate that one where you need to survive but the fleas try to knock you off
Why is it 10 times more difficult than the other ones

But this is the lore channel so... Uhh... I think the lore of the big flea is that it used steroids or whatever

Either that or it is infected by radiances dwindling light

[lean temple]

It's in the Memorium so most likely Citadel fed it to grow it that big

[wintry compass]

that's kinda crazy then how long have the fleas been trapped??

[lean temple]

We don't know. They're travellers so presumably not super long. It's also possible Huge Flea was captured as an "exotic specimen" by the Citadel

Not sure if Haunted memorium bugs captured it or if it was before the Haunting.

[viscid ridge]

Just a random bug, but it reminded me a lot of elderbug for some reason

Cause of the village and everything

[ornate pier]

High Halls

[tight plume]

so broad question: Has there already been discussion about the pale king's foresight in regards to silk songs ending? Basically Previously I had been in the camp that the Pale King flat made multiple mistakes in regards to his plan w/ the vessels. However Hornet gets a pretty good ending. The HK is around to become the king of hallow nest w/ the survivors . The wanderer and the siblings become defacto rulers over the void(and kill the radiance) . This also eliminates the threat the void poises to the kingdoms perpetuity.

It kinda seems like the pale king got absolutely everything he wanted even though on the surface it seems like he failed. The only real cost was his life and the majority of population, but they would have died under the other options as well. Basically it seems like the pale kings kids didn't get nearly as bad a end as we initially thought.

I was previously under the impression the vessels shades lost their little remaining person-hood upon being subsumed by the void except maybe the wanderer. With them all standing behind the wanderer at the sister of the void ending it doesn't seem to be the case. This also means that many of the siblings didn't die and even became immortal.

So ya continuity of government, hallownest gets to continue even if in a new form, an heir, the radiance is dead, and subjectively good endings for his kids.

So my thought is this basically means he was insanely lucky or his foresight works really far ahead.

[muted lantern]

Considering he made a sign that says hallownest is the last and eternal kingdom I don't think he foresaw his kingdom being obliterated.

[tight plume]

true, but if this was a positive end to the radiance situation it doesn't mean he saw it's perputity in the sense of him continuing as ruler.

bascially lore wise I do think the pale king would have seen the situation with the vessels , the HK , and hornet that silk song ends with as a win.

[muted lantern]

Yeah but there's not really a hallownest anymore either, most of the people their are stragglers and outsiders that won't stay long, we see a lot of the residents move on in game too.

[gentle aspen]

lemme give this a read

[muted lantern]

Whatever rises from the ashes won't really be hallownest anymore, since most people remaining don't even remember it

[tight plume]

All you need for a civilization to continue is some survivors and a member of the original government, I think HK counts.

[muted lantern]

I also think everything being pks plan all along detracts from the tragedy of his story. Someone who wanted his kingdom to last eternal, sacrificed everything to save it, and still watched it fall apart.

[tight plume]

sure I mean the situation the PK was in kinda sucked. Maybe it was the best outcome he could come up with?

[tight plume]

sure. THat was my orignal point; I think this is strange that he got everything he wanted even if it was in a different form than implied initially by teh game.

[muted lantern]

What I'm saying is I don't think he did, he hides away the palace in a dream, he wanted his kingdom and legacy to be eternal, now he's all but forgotten but by a few stragglers. His daughter seems to despise him, his other children are all dead. He seems heavily characterized by an immense shame at his choices, despite making them with good intentions.

I generally don't think pks foresight is 20/20 I think he just gets visions maybe. He probably foresaw this plan leading to the radiances death, but not the how maybe.

[tight plume]

he was definitely ashamed. I just don't know what too do w/ the foresight bit in the lore.

[tight plume]

i'd say that's the bare minimum ya.

[muted lantern]

There's many classic tales of kings getting a prophecy of their undoing and destroying themselves in the process. I don't know if that's exactly what happened but it's kinda similar.

[tight plume]

yea that fits well.

It is probably left to interpretation. The whole foresight bit may literally just be discussion fodder by team cherry to leave things more open ended. Did the Pale King intend for the wanderer to defeat the radiance ect. ect.

[muted lantern]

Also I don't think hollow would take up any mantle as a monarch, tk has the kings brand, and hollow if they are alive probably couldn't ever see them self as a leader. The amount of trauma they must have endured I think they would just want a peaceful life.

[tight plume]

the knight is gone gone... I think the HK looked very positively upon the pk and would follow his fathers goals. personally.

he's busy being shade lord.

that's subjective of course.

.... there really is so much open ended stuff in this series 😅

[muted lantern]

Its hard for me personally to see any form of government rise after, there's so few people left, only enough to fill a small town really.

Grimms presence seems to me to say hallownest is truly over.

[tight plume]

when people aren't dying constantly that would probably change rather quickly. HK is immortal or at least absurdly long lived.

[muted lantern]

But these are all just my opinions. Its certainly possible he foresaw everything, given how vague what his foresight is described as, I just don't see it personally.

[tight plume]

I guess I don't see HK leaving hallownest or Abandoning the people he was motivated to protect even if it's 1 town ya know?

eventually I feel like the bugs would just put him in charge after 100 years or something.

[muted lantern]

I doubt they would leave, I just don't think they would take up a position of leadership. They have a long recovery ahead of them (if they are alive, it's still hotly debated whether etv or dream no more is canon) and would need a lot of time to even see them self as a person, much less a leader. Plus the originally royal family name doesn't carry much weight in dirt mouth, where nobody even knows much about the pk

[tight plume]

I thought it was assumed since the HK's shade wasn't in sister of the void ending?

or am I misremembering?

sorry I don't normally come for lore discussions so I might have the various endings munged there.

it's definitely deliberately ambiguous 😕 I also hope for that hype momement.

[gentle aspen]

okay after a read of your thing, no, PK didn’t get what he wanted

The whole point was for his kingdom to continue forever and the death of 95% of his citizens and himself makes it a failure

[tight plume]

I think the issue I have is if that's the best outcome? It all becomes kinda strange when you have a character that can ostensibly see the future. without the vessel strategy he employed basically the radiance kills everyone anyway right? I'm sure he didn't want 95% of his population to die taht's clear.

also is the HK living, the radiance dying, and a small population surving hallownest continuing is actually my question.

It seems like everyone seems to take the opposite tact that no that's not hallownest continuing. I think I lean in the direction that it is.

[muted lantern]

Most of the remaining populace aren't even from hallownest, iirc a lot of dirt mouths residents travelled here, and don't even know much about the kingdom below

As I said, I think if any civilization rises up here, it won't be hallownest anymore.

[tight plume]

My thought is probably rising from the notion that it's a monarchy and HK ruling is defacto the civ continuing. I DO see your point. I don't think we disagree on any substantive facts.

[quartz void]

How the fudge is sherma climbing bro

Currently before ||the last judge||

and this mf just spawns there

Wdym « nothing can stop you » ? I died multiple times just going there ?!

[wide dew]

pure of heart

[quartz void]

i mean sure

He is da baby after all

Cinnamon roll

BUT HOW THE HELL

I have this vision of him just pogo-ing off monsters 😭

Methink she just left the kingdom and got taken

What tells you the game is that close to HK timeline wise anyways

She keeps alluding to her age

And im only in act 1

So my current theory is that it is just a sequel very long after HK

[tight plume]

she was old at the start of HK so I didn't assume it meant that is was far after. The games are fairly close to unrelated so we can superimpose way too much shit on this.

[quartz void]

Hmm haven’t seen this one so fair

[tight plume]

what does full chamber mean? all we know is it's greater than 8 or something?

[quartz void]

How do they know about the seals anyways

Like

Im pretty sure they are close to the seals

oh gos

H

I understood smth

The secret room

In weavers den

There was a seal

For hornet

And at least one alive weaver

That FLEES

AND NO BODIES

OH GOSH

The alive weaver is widow

Trust

[gentle aspen]

not a channel for meme gifs

[frigid belfry]

Enough members of the choir to incapacitate hornet

[gentle aspen]

That’s false

Widow mocks Hornet for being the spawn of those who ran

[quartz void]

True

[frigid belfry]

Weavers shared their knowledge with hallownest

[quartz void]

And how does it ties with this

[frigid belfry]

The black egg and wingsmoulds use runes

Seals included

1. The 3 hk endings canon to silksong are kept ambiguous on purpose, therefore showcasing thk is a no no
2. We have zero idea and anything beyond this is speculation
3. Same as #2

[river osprey]

I wanna see more lifeblood

Ngl someone needs to sue zylotol, its lifeblood not plasmium

[rain gate]

lifeblood in SoS probably

"salty waters at kingdom's edge" or whatever

[craggy smelt]

the name Sea of Sorrow has been hit with copyright issues
will be replaced by the name Seamaster

[cloud dust]

Silksong Lore

[muted lantern]

Is this a bit or fr

Did this happen with godmaster

[limpid summit]

No but it happened with HD

It was originally Hollow Knight Dream Land

[foggy fractal]

aw that would've been sick

[edgy nebula]

stop spreading misinformation, it's being renamed to zoteboat

[twilit crest]

Are mods tripping in here too? Just trying to escape the madness

[foggy fractal]

mods can't be tripping in here because there are no mods here

[twilit crest]

Is joker hydrated

[foggy fractal]

idk he's probably off doing holiday stuff

[twilit crest]

Hydrated with eggnog

[pale narwhal]

Sea of A Little Sad

[foggy fractal]

Sea of Sadness 😔

[muted lantern]

Depends one what you are trying to avoid.

[keen raven]

quite an ironic needolin voiceline coming from this thing

[muted lantern]

Why is he in miss grotto

[muted lantern]

Racist v racist anime duel

[keen raven]

they're haunted, and yet one of the features they retain is their racism 😭

[muted lantern]

Maybe GMS makes people more racist

That's how the haunting causes increased aggression

[keen raven]

makes people racist towards non-haunted

the reason people think the haunting is mindlessness is because they're getting attacked on sight

[orchid pine]

So

When are we gonna talk about Void breaking the 4th wall

[keen raven]

when

[orchid pine]

Act 3 start

[keen raven]

oh

[edgy nebula]

they recognize hornet being racist

[keen raven]

oh yeah

looking back it does kinda look like a "get back" type insult

[craggy smelt]

it's double reverse racism

[keen raven]

after the events of act 3 the flies take over the citadel and declare war on hornet

act 4 real

[spark pine]

Greyroot's dialogue implies that bugs (possibly from bellhart) were helping the parasite with its rituals.

From the doc:"None... none come now. Once times, many bugs. Many. Now none. The final rite... the time of birth approaches..." as well as *
Bug. Only you are left. None more tread here. None.[NPC]:For the rite. The Pollip Hearts. They are needed. Bring them here, for the rite."

Any thoughts on this, as well as why the pollip hearts are significant and both the pollip hearts and greyroot are so tied to shellwood?

I also had the thought that maybe the grey child in bilewater was brought there by traveling bugs/whatever bugs greyroot was using for its rituals

as part of a past "time of birth" ritual

[stray fog]

The needolin dialogue of the witch Chapel is also about forgetting or being forgotten

I don't remember the exact dialogue

And I can't find it on the wiki

[stray fog]

While all other chapels are about remembering

[edgy nebula]

very likely yeah

[stray fog]

So maybe the greyroot stuff was a dying religion

[edgy nebula]

hows greymoor tied to greyroot? other than them both being named grey

[stray fog]

I don't think they're related

[spark pine]

according to the Needolin Locations page on the official wiki, the needolin dialogue for the Chapel of the Witch is "...Ours...
...Forgotten...
...New birth...
...Reborn..."

[stray fog]

Theres a lot of stuff that is said to be grey

[spark pine]

yes that was a typo i meant to say greyroot

[edgy nebula]

ah

[stray fog]

I would like to believe that its a forgotten god

Maybe it was shunned by others because of its parasitic nature

[edgy nebula]

i personally think greyroot was always a parasite, we see the bodies of pilgrims in the background of the chapel

but we dont really have enough on greyroot to say for certain

[stray fog]

They lured pilgrims in, and then they injected them with a parasite
(speculation)

Like a cult

[edgy nebula]

well yeah they offered the rite of rebirth to the naive pilgrims and they instantly die

the only reason hornet doesnt die is cause she's stronger

im honestly curious on why the baby would be in bilewater

[stray fog]

And if the white lady + greyroot theories are true, then how does this tie into the white lady's origins 🤔

[cursive granite]

What if hornet was the daughter of the pale king?

[twilit crest]

Woah there

[edgy nebula]

no i think itd make more sense if she was the granddaughter of gms

[cursive granite]

true

What if Lace was the child of gms?

[subtle rover]

the hornet

[lone valve]

Is the reason why Sinner’s Road is called “Sinner’s Road” is because you avoid the Last Judge, hence, you’re avoiding judgement?

[cursive granite]

Have yall noticed that the cogwork dancers have the same design as the 4th chorus? Like the crown the color.

[dire lynx]

yes, both were created by the architects

[cursive granite]

oh, also what happened to the 12th architect after act 3?

[dire lynx]

her mechanical body failed, so essentially she died

[cursive granite]

oh

sad

but what if you didnt get the crest before act 3?

will you just not get it?

[dire lynx]

if you already have the key you can still use it, if you havent bought it yet she wont die until you do

[cursive granite]

Oh

next playthrough never buying the key

[dire lynx]

it can be any of her shop items btw, as long as she has something to sell she will live

[cursive granite]

ooh

[dire lynx]

if you like architect crest

[cursive granite]

nah i like kinda shaman and wanderer better

[heavy gyro]

Based shaman enjoyer

[twilit crest]

That’s what I figured. I could be wrong

[craggy smelt]

hmm, I wonder what happens to Pebb if you don't buy out her stock?
wiki doesn't say

looks like all her stuff winds up with Grindle, but no word on what happens to her that I could find

[ember river]

She dies in act 3

Or is implied to

[craggy smelt]

I know she gets haunted if you buy her stuff before act 3
but what is her fate if you don't?
I must know

[ember river]

Again, she probably just fucking dies to the cave collapsing

Or gets murked by the thieves

[viscid ridge]

A boulder hits her, and the the snitchbugs steals her stock

[fresh badger]

This sounds so made up 😭

[leaden cosmos]

Had hornet decided to leave pharloom post void would the grimm troupe end up appearing

If i remember correctly they appear to feed on the nightmares of dying kingdoms

[echo vapor]

probably not, since they need someone to take part in the grimmchild ritual

[leaden cosmos]

Oh yeah

Im really curious to what hornet would think of them

We never get to see her reaction to a lot of things in hallownest

[heavy gyro]

Why are there no AC totems in Pharloom

[tardy musk]

Why can't Hornet turn into a worm slinging with spider with grand mommy typa silk and not just a bug?

[stray fog]

Depends on if pharloom would be considered a dying kingdom after act 3

Do all the voided bugs die or return to normal

[eager spire]

makes more sense if pale king was in wyrm form

but he isnt

[tardy musk]

Well right

But genetics is genetics

[eager spire]

yeah but like our understanding of genetics doesnt work in this form

[tardy musk]

Just think you head like a lizard after getting power somehow but your sperm is human yn

[eager spire]

im not gonna think that

better question is

is gms using silk as a drug and introducing it to low income areas

yeah found the old theory

[silver meadow]

Hi everyone Im new here I have drawn some conclusions after finishing Silksong. I don't know if they are accurate, but I imagine that you have all played Silksong. I wouldn't want to give any spoilers.

[solemn hinge]

Anything goes here

[viscid ridge]

Yeah shoot away 👍

[silver meadow]

Ok thank thank you!

[ember river]

GMS is not the CIA

[eager spire]

i dont remember what i wrote but like i dont think i intended on her to be cia

[ember river]

This channel doesn't need spoilers by the way, feel free to assume everyone has 100%'d the game

[ember river]

It's a joke on how the CIA did exactly that

The theory is otherwise pretty bad

And contradicts several established plotpoints

[eager spire]

i mean obviously its a joke

[silver meadow]

Silksong Lore Theory The Phantom, Lace, and the Broken Cycle
After completing Silksong and unlocking the "Sister of the Void" ending, I’ve been reflecting on the deeper narrative threads especially around Hornet’s capture, Lace, the Phantom, and the Grandmother Silk. Here’s my interpretation of the lore, based on in game events and endings.
The Grandmother’s Design
The Grandmother Silk appears to be orchestrating a ritual cycle weaving successors or sacrifices to maintain her dominion over Pharloom. She seeks a worthy heir, someone with both the will and the lineage to inherit or challenge her. Hornet, being half-Weaver through Herrah, fits this role perfectly. I have other pieces, so I'll send them one after the other. I'd love to hear your opinion, of course.

[ember river]

I always thought the consensus was that the themes of the game were of motherhood

I doubt GMS would forgo her rule willingly though

[silver meadow]

Her capture from the Black Egg in Hallownest may not have been random. It feels like a deliberate act a summoning, not a kidnapping. The ceremonial silk bindings, the silent procession, and the cage all point to a ritualistic intent.

The Phantom and Lace’s Guilt
The Phantom (Phandom/Needolin) seems to be a failed heir perhaps a previous candidate who was meant to "rise" but instead fell into the Abyss. Lace’s dialogue before the Phantom fight reveals deep regret
You were meant to rise. I was meant to follow."
This suggests that Lace once tried to protect or guide the Phantom and failed. The Phantom may have been a sister, a friend, or even a reflection of what Hornet could become if she succumbed to the same fate.

Lace’s Redemption and the Butterfly
Lace initially tests Hornet, much like Hornet tested the Knight in the first game. But her role evolves. She sees in Hornet the same spark she once saw in the Phantom and this time, she refuses to fail.
The white butterfly that frees Hornet from her cage at the start may have been sent by Lace. It’s a silent act of rebellion, a thread of hope. Lace’s journey becomes one of redemption: helping Hornet break free, survive the trials, and ultimately escape the fate that claimed the Phantom.

The Abyss and the Broken Cycle
In the "Sister of the Void" ending, Lace sacrifices herself to save Hornet taking her place in the Abyss. But if you’ve completed the right quests and carry the White Flower, Hornet plays the Silken Lute, and Lace is pulled back from the darkness. Together, they break the cycle.
The Grandmother Silk is consumed by the Abyss not in rage, but in silence. The threads unravel. Pharloom is freed.

Sherma’s RoleFrom Pilgrim to Priest
The Silken Priest, who once sought to bind Hornet as a "Gift," represents the old order blind devotion to the ritual. But if you help Sherma, he replaces the Priest at the end. Not as a captor, but as a guardian. His journey mirrors Hornet’s: from passive observer to active liberator.

Final Thoughts
Silksong isn’t just about escaping a kingdom it’s about escaping a legacy of sacrifice. Hornet doesn’t just survive she saves. Lace doesn’t just test she redeems. And Pharloom doesn’t just fall it blooms.
Let me know what you think. Did anyone else interpret the Phantom or Lace differently? I’d love to hear your thoughts.

[fresh badger]

Holy yap

The silk bindings arent ceremonial they sealed off all of Hornet's abilities and crippled her

Phantom never encountered the abyss?? What lace dialogue before Phantom?

What silken priest wanted to bind Hornet? Do you mean the Caretaker?

[silver meadow]

sorry for that, for my report but I would love to share the conclusions I drew, of course I have others with the NPCs I met and the Herald from the first hollow knight I met, the opium, so sorry if I got tired.

[marble oasis]

All of these simply point to the fact that it was premeditated and arranged, which we know it was

[fresh badger]

opium 🤤

[silver meadow]

Yup

[spark valve]

The caretaker is gms’s enemy

[marble oasis]

Phantom is Lace’s sister

They are both Silk construct children of GMS

[silver meadow]

before the phantom there is a dialogue with Lace with him as a memory in a room

[spark valve]

Made to serve her not replace her

[spark valve]

That’s phantom not the caretaker

[marble oasis]

Also what’s this about the Caretaker trying to bind Hornet as a gift?

[fresh badger]

That needolin area is Lace and Phantom, with Lace lamenting their role with the "Why us, sister" dialogue?

[ember river]

The Caretaker wanted to destroy GMS

He never had any intention of replacing her, and was disappointed when Hornet stated that was her primary option

[silver meadow]

Overall, regarding the priest, as I call him the Caretaker, I thought he was corrupt, hence what I mentioned above are of course my own conclusions from my own perspective.

[marble oasis]

Do you mean the snare trap?

[silver meadow]

Yes

[ember river]

He wasn't a priest

At any point

He was a snail shaman hiding amongst the citadel caste, but he was never alligned with the citadel

[gentle aspen]

hey guys

[fresh badger]

hey chat

[spark valve]

The purpose of the snare is to kill gms, not capture hornet for her

[silver meadow]

actually interesting

[marble oasis]

I think you’ve got a good point about Sherma being the opposite of the Caretaker but rather its that the Caretaker didn’t actually care about any of the bugs, despite posing as a leader, whereas Sherma actually did his best to care and protect for his fellow man

[silver meadow]

Hi

[ember river]

Wait how didn't you realize if you completed act 3

[gentle aspen]

I mean to be frank if he didn’t care he wouldn’t have given us the silk and soul quest

or gated us

[ember river]

I thought the Silk and Soul quest set that pretty clearly

[marble oasis]

He fucking mad when we bring them all to his doorstep

[heavy gyro]

He wanted to see what void would do

[gentle aspen]

me when change happens

[spark valve]

Caretaker is curmudgeonly but does seem invested in the well being of the crowd in a lot of dialogue

[marble oasis]

Snails are cruel and heartless creatures incapable of caring for others

[ember river]

Caretaker begrudgingly helps the people at the first shrine, but he helps them nontheless

[marble oasis]

His people strung up thousands of pilgrims and used them in sick experiments

They’re no better than the Whiteward

[ember river]

Technically they're worse

The whiteward actually succeeded in extending the lifes of bugs and curing ailments

[marble oasis]

Yeah whiteward at least tried to extend their lives

[gentle aspen]

[ember river]

They succeeded in doing that

[gentle aspen]

There’s no way you’re gassing up whiteward

no genuine way

[ember river]

They literally fucking did it

[marble oasis]

Get ready pal

[ember river]

It's not up to me

[silver meadow]

probably something happened with the translation maybe above or my English is not that good, I went to the action thirty abyss i.e. Hornet saved Lost Lace so after finishing I also did the Herald mission sorry if my English is not that good

[gentle aspen]

you realize the whole purpose was to stop people from getting off work right

[ember river]

Sure you can say I'm glazing them if I don't mention that they sold their minds to an elder god

[marble oasis]

We’re almost at the point of Silksong’s life cycle where people are going to say the Citadel did nothing wrong

[spark valve]

The snails aren’t their ancestors

[gentle aspen]

you realize their “extended lives” are completely scuffed when you look at the silked husks?

[ember river]

Yeah and to keep the ones in charge in charge no shit

[gentle aspen]

how do you genuinely look at the fucked up results of whiteward and go “yeah they at least did a good” they didn’t

[ember river]

those are the most extreme examples, most people had their life extended

[ember river]

I didn't say good holy shit

[marble oasis]

Those are just the failures

[ember river]

I said they were better than whoever sacrificed tenths of pilgrims to make spells

[marble oasis]

Most every bug in the Citadel had Silk in them

Caretaker says this

[gentle aspen]

yeah which is the reason the haunting was as successful as it was

[ember river]

We literally see a conductor not be an abomination and have his life extended

[marble oasis]

To be fair

We don’t see him

The first dreg husk also looked normal behind that curtain

[ember river]

He was sane enough to have a normal conversation

though I guess we don't see how sane the dreg husks were

[marble oasis]

So was moss druid

No not her

The guy from hollow knight

Moss prophet

[gentle aspen]

yeah and he points it as a bad thing

[marble oasis]

Oh so you’re going to believe the Snail?

[ember river]

No shit they were selling their minds to a vengeful god

[marble oasis]

To be fair they didn’t know about the vengeful god

[ember river]

I just said that the whiteward experiments were technically better than the guys sacrificing people to make spells

[gentle aspen]

He literally paints the act of shoving silk into their shells as a bad thing

[marble oasis]

They weren’t even good spells

[ember river]

We... don't know

[silver meadow]

asking a question about Caretaker was a snail in disguise, that is, because I am still trying to understand some things.?

[marble oasis]

Yes

[ember river]

How can you play through act 3

[marble oasis]

He was a Snail Shaman

[ember river]

And not know caretaker is a snail

[marble oasis]

That’s why his head was so big

[ember river]

He's the thin one when you meet the 3

[silver meadow]

After completing a lot of missions, I did the Caretaker mission of the snail priest. Anyway, he was supposed to set a trap, but in reality it was a trap to send Hornet to the abyss. However, this opens the way to the abyss. After the main boss is completed, Lace appears to take Hornet's place, hence the battle with Lost Lace.

[ember river]

No

you got it all wrong

[marble oasis]

It was a trap to send GMS to the Abyss, she tried to bring Hornet down with her (Hornet would have been able to get away otherwise), Lace saved Hornet

[gentle aspen]

No, the trap was meant to kill her but since GMS grabbed onto Hornet, she would’ve gotten dragged into there

[ember river]

The trap was indeed for GMS, the idea was to send her to the Abyss, which would kill her for good, but Hornet was quite shocked by the shaman actually daring to summon the Void, and GMS used that opportunity to grab Hornet as well, dragging her down to the same fate.
Lace intervened, and in her words, saving Hornet was her rebellion against GMS for giving her a life she hated

[marble oasis]

Alright you guys seem like you’ve got this good night

[silver meadow]

After the battle with Lost Lace, if you play music, Lace appears, so Hornet takes her and they manage to escape the abyss, at least that's what I saw happen later.

[spark valve]

Hmph. Beastly words, them. Finely spoken, but beastly all the same.
I just pray you don't bring any more unneeded pain down on the heads of these gormless little pilgrims...

Caretaker, I bring supplies from the town of bells below the Citadel.
And badly needed they are, miss bellringer. Ain't much finding or foraging happening with this mob, what with them choir types all stalkin' about the chambers beside.
Take some beads for your effort, miss bellringer, and know this sad lot'll be survivin' a little longer thanks to you.

All your work, and look! They keep arrivin'. It's bugs aplenty up here now. Hapless, weak, but alive they are!

It's a sorry settlement you've summoned, miss bellringer, and a blasted bother for me. Not sure we have anything to offer 'em... Not even hope.

[silver meadow]

Yes and then Hornet save Lost Lace

[ember river]

Huh?

After the battle with Lost Lace hornet leaves and the Knight saves them both

[silver meadow]

indeed appears as a shadow and saves both

What I said above is that after the battle, Hornet takes Lace and then they are saved by Knight, sorry I didn't mention it in full, I took it for granted, so yes.

[silver meadow]

yes, I hear many players who support your version in general, that's why I wanted to mention my own perspective, I hope nothing was lost in the translation, as I said above, my English is not perfect, thank you all for answering me, I appreciate it.

[silver meadow]

I would like to hear your version. I generally like to see other people's perspectives, and I would appreciate it.

[ember river]

your interpretation is disproven by the game itself

The dialogue contradicts it

[sage hornet]

hello can i talk about predictions for the next game here?

for a possible next game after silksong

[coral falcon]

I reckon we're gonna get a Lace story either next game or a future DLC

[silver meadow]

At what points is it considered that what I have learned is contradictory to what I have mentioned, of course, that is why I want to hear your perspective and that of any other player. If I did not understand something well, I like to see the other version, that is why I am asking the question.

[ember river]

Nah, we'll get "Hollow Knight, this time you play as the actual Hollow Knight" for sure

[ember river]

Right after Hornet escapes the Citadel after nuking it with the portal to the Abyss, she calls the Caretaker reckless for trying to use the void, but she doesn't call him out on supposedly trying to kill her or use as an offering or whatever.
The dialogue with Lace at the Abyss confirms that she wasn't an offering either, she just really wanted to die to piss GMS off.

Additionally, when Hornet DOES usurp GMS is when she completely ignores the Caretaker and goes straight to bind GMS

[sage widget]

what are you guy's theories on who broke hornet out of the cage at the start of the game

[whole holly]

Me thinks we will play as Grimm

[whole holly]

Silkfly

[sage widget]

you dont think anyone was controlling them?

[coral falcon]

Lace iirc

[sage widget]

i think its probably lace but i dont really see any evidence correct me if im wrong tho

[whole holly]

Lace , possibly

[sage widget]

i remember team cherry said they wanted to keep it a mystery

[coral falcon]

And we will never know

[silver meadow]

It makes sense to me what you say about Lace, that it wasn't intended as an offer or anything like that, your perspective is interesting, but my question is, if I understood correctly, I hope Lace was entirely from within, so there's a chance it was created correctly.?

[ember river]

What do you mean from within?

[silver meadow]

sorry for my English I wanted to say that Lace is made of silk right so it was created? from what I understand

[sage hornet]

well here are my predictions on the next game: I been seeing a trend for a while between Hollow Knight and Hollow Knight Silksong, this trend being that Hollow Knight takes place in a fallen kingdom of Hallownest and Silksong taking place in the collapsing kingdom of Pharloom. What I can see from this is that the next game will probably take place in a thriving and corrupt kingdom. As for the kingdom name I can see it being the City of Steel as there have been multiple references to it. The theme of the game could be the corruptness of society. We most likely will get Hornet or Lace as our protagonist. Hornet could be the protagonist because I'm not sure if she is going to stay in Pharloom forever. Lace could be the protagonist because she lives at the end of the events of Silksong, but she is a being made of silk, meaning she is very fragile (bet, triple damage next game), so she could be captured like Hornet to be transported to the City of Steel. I'm not sure about how the healing mechanics would work for Hornet and Lace, the only thing I'm sure about is that it will be based on fencing. For Hornet I am not sure due to the enemies in Silksong being possessed by silk, which forces them to attack Hornet, and in turn allows her to harvest silk to bind and heal her wounds, but now with Grandmother Silk gone there is no silk to bind with meaning she has to make her own silk, but usually she can only make 3 strands of silk (4 with weavelight) at a time which doesn't meet the need for 9 strands of silk to bind, meaning that there could be no healing mechanic the new game. Lace on the other hand I have no idea how she will heal because she probably will not be able to heal.

(I'm not rewriting this absurdly long paragraph into to go along with the convo)

[ember river]

Yes, Lace was created by GMS as her loyal, obedient daughter after the Weavers turned out not so loyal and obedient

[sage hornet]

people casually ignoring the paragraph that i put time and effort into making🥀

[ember river]

I ignore every future game prediction

[sage hornet]

[ember river]

But from what I read a lot of it sounds like terrible design, like commonplace 3 mask hits

[sage hornet]

its a joke

[ember river]

Which by the way, the 2 mask hits here don't mean Hornet is weaker than the knight

[sage hornet]

I never said she was in the first place

[ember river]

Then why do you complain that people don't read a long ass paragraph in the lore channel and take it seriously

[sage hornet]

cuz me being a stupid idiot

[heavy gyro]

Lace would play too similarly to hornet imo

I think THK being the next protagonist would make sense considering the City of Steel's dislike of void, and it would mean each main sibling got their own game

But this is pure speculation

[silver meadow]

In fact, I understood it correctly up to this point, just to summarize in relation to the ending of Sister of the Void, it is believed that the vicious circle is essentially broken, combining that the grandmother between, practically does not kill the Hornet but neither does the Hornet become her successor in this ending at least, essentially for this reason I interpreted some things in my own way in what I mentioned above, also a question, do you think that some endings are simply left to the interpretation of the players?

[ember river]

Huh!?

What vicious circle

Also the endings are pretty closed, both here and in the original

[silver meadow]

Very interesting prediction, I agree that Hornet will probably have a leading role, but what is your interpretation of the ending of Hollow Knight Silksong?

[sage hornet]

I'm actually not too sure on my depiction of it even though I have seen it many times

As much as I think Hornet is going to lead Pharloom to a better position, I also think Lace might do it instead

[silver meadow]

I think there is a succession, that's why I say the cycle is broken with the real end, at least that's what I concluded, in this sense I call it a vicious cycle, you understand.

[sage hornet]

Actually not that you mention that, I think of it as the weavers being free of a curse

that GMS cannot control them anymore

[limpid summit]

An end to the cycle isn’t a bad way to look at it

SS is about oppressed people being oppressors

GMS to Weavers to Conductors and even smaller cases like Groal and the Slabflies

Freeing Lace breaks the cycle

She won’t perpetuate violence

[silver meadow]

I can send you my version in DM. I would like you to tell me your opinion of course if you want. I would like you to tell me if what I understood is partly correct or if I understood some things wrong 🤔

[sage hornet]

I feel like your view on the ending is kind of not correct due to Hornet being the only weaver to fight against GMS and winning so it would not be a cycle. It is more like the weavers fled Pharloom to make the perfect weaver which was Hornet to fight GMS and end her rule over the weavers. That's what I could interpret anyways.

[ember river]

GMS never intended to relinquish power, she never intended for her children to succeed her, only to obey her unconditionally

I feel like you've just built your own headcanon without paying attention to the actual text ingame

[sinful nimbus]

Describing it as a vicious cycle is apt

Oppressed becoming the oppressors type of deal

[silver meadow]

completely acceptable and logical I agree with what you say, however I thought of it as a circle because I thought that before Gms logically there might have been someone else in her position, in that sense I said it, however I heard Poles say that she is a deity what do you think about this view?

[sinful nimbus]

Its always just power transferring to a new person and them doing the same old stuff with it

Caretaker: It's feelin' almost time, eh, bellringer? You and her who waits up there. That fated meeting won't hold forever... Ready to make your play, to oust one ruler and claim her place?

Hornet: I'll not deny some part of me desires that outcome... Dominance, it seems, is baked deep in my blood, as too, no doubt, for the one up top. And yet, another part resists... A part, over time, I find myself siding with more... That part wishes not to claim a monarch's mantle, rather it would see my freedom regained, and this kingdom's bugs unshackled from their pale chains.
Caretaker: ...Remarkable idea you're speakin' there, bellringer, a world cut free. Not a wish I've had much cause to hope on, serious like... but I ain't so surprised to hear you speak it.
For all your helpin', I been seein' it clearer. You've still got the monarch in you, alright, and the glare of a Weaver, but the ambition... that's wild different from both.

[sage hornet]

GMS is a higher being, Hornet however I believe is a demi god

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[sinful nimbus]

She started the whole ordeal

Pharloom was not born of that monarch, Old One. Power existed in these lands even before she bound them beneath her.

That's why she's referred to as the one true monarch, she's the one who centralized power

[sage hornet]

Hornet was the first to actually challenge GMS, the weavers set her up to be able to neutralize GMS and free them from her.

[silver meadow]

I may have interpreted some things in my own way, yes, misinterpreting some facts, I don't disagree, but because some things are not fully explained, maybe I overdid it, but I like to delve deeper, okay, that doesn't mean that my interpretation may be correct or valid, of course, that's why I like to see other players' versions.

[ember river]

Thing is most of your arguments kinda spiral out from misinterpreted dialogue that tells us actual facts

Such as the weavers being the ones looking for a replacement for GMS

Wvich can be gathered from Eva and a couple logs

[sage hornet]

Tbh I kinda skipped the dialogue

I was more hellbent on killing stuff

[spark valve]

weavers weren't trying to replace gms with eva they were just trying to reproduce

I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task.
Hornet: I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.
Hornet: Are you too an attempt to defy that cruel constraint?
A flawed attempt. A life spun from rune and shell, sustained only by its cage. My thoughts may mimic a Weavers, but my senses are my own.

[silver meadow]

To clarify something first, the ending I got, like all of us when we released the game, we clearly understood the obvious, at least the official events that are mentioned and no one disputes them, I don't want to dispute the events as they occur in the game, of course, that's understandable, it's just that maybe my conclusion was removed according to the context, maybe it was more my theory about some thoughts I had while playing and after finishing, maybe I wasn't positioned correctly from the beginning, that doesn't mean that my interpretation is correct with some more assumptions that I made, thanks for the answers, I appreciate it

[ember river]

Eh, fair, though I'd still attribute it a dual purpose, considering most of the weapons devised against GMS did come from Atla

[silver meadow]

I guess it has some connection to twisted bud🤔

[whole holly]

Rune Harp found in Weavenest Atla: "Hide her deep, the despised child, our shame shown in shell of iron. She is a wish cast vain, divinity mimicked in form too frail."

[spark valve]

the weavers considered themselves divine and eva states she was made to mimic weavers

[whole holly]

wish cast vain wouldn't apply to them reproducing

[spark valve]

yes it would

[stray fog]

Did they consider themselves divine or did they only tell people that they were divine

[whole holly]

it doesn't make sense with all the instances of weaver descendants

[spark valve]

both

[spark valve]

none of them are in pharloom

it does make sense

[whole holly]

they did find out they weren't though, maybe before they made eva? since First Sinner seems more ancient tomb than Weavenest Alta

[whole holly]

how is that relevant

[whole holly]

elaborate

[spark valve]

fs being jailed for saying they weren't divine implies disagreement amongst weavers lol

[silver meadow]

question is there a chance that Eva is some kind of deity who uses GMS itself to serve her own purposes;

[spark valve]

they... believed it was a vain wish... because... they never... knew..... that it was possible.... when they wrote the tablet

[spark valve]

no

[stray fog]

Why would they hide her from gms, who apparently dispises eva, if she wasn't meant to be used against gms

"Hide her deep, the despised child, our shame shown in shell of iron. She is a wish cast vain, divinity mimicked in form too frail."

[spark valve]

the weavers despise her not gms

though gms probably would despise her if she knew she existed

[whole holly]

does "..." make your point right? also how can you assert the timelines?

[stray fog]

The dots indicate pauses in the sentence🤷

[whole holly]

mimicking Divinity likely applies to GMS's divinity, since Eva and GMS are mostly made from silk

[spark valve]

A life spun from rune and shell, sustained only by its cage. My thoughts may mimic a Weavers

[whole holly]

that's not what i am asking, but why was it necessary...

[spark valve]

I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task.
Hornet: I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.
Hornet: Are you too an attempt to defy that cruel constraint?
A flawed attempt.

[stray fog]

True

But why did the Weavers despised eva

[spark valve]

she was a failure and they saw her as shameful

"Hide her deep, the despised child, our shame shown in shell of iron. She is a wish cast vain, divinity mimicked in form too frail."

her failure is a reminder that they can't reproduce

[stray fog]

Another L for the Weavers

Its their fault, not eva's

[frigid belfry]

eva was essentially a proto-hb made to be the one of the ”silken strength”

[spark valve]

it's almost like there's a motif in here about mothers selfishly wanting their children to be something

[silver meadow]

yes, that's right, the way you put it

[whole holly]

Eva's thought may resemble weaver's but she clearly implies that's where similarities end, she is not biological child, Eva mimicking Weaver wouldn't make as much sense as her divinity mimicking GMS, their intent was to have child and divinity(weaver's wouldn't have substantial motive to mimic their own divinity rather than GMS's, unless you are going to imply that them mimicking divinity and having child was same motive which needs evidence)

[spark valve]

she's an attempt to circumvent their inability to reproduce normally and weavers have a motivation to do that which is explicitly why they made eva

I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task.
Hornet: I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.
Hornet: Are you too an attempt to defy that cruel constraint?
A flawed attempt. A life spun from rune and shell, sustained only by its cage. My thoughts may mimic a Weavers, but my senses are my own.

it's not complicated or ambiguous why eva was made

[stray fog]

The divinity part is the only thing stopping me from switching to tammo's side

[whole holly]

Rune Harp found in Weavenest Atla: "Hide her deep, the despised child, our shame shown in shell of iron. She is a wish cast vain, divinity mimicked in form too frail."

[spark valve]

the weavers believed that they were divine, fs disagreeing doesn't mean the weavers changed their minds on that given that fs was you know locked up for saying it

[stray fog]

I thought she was locked up so that she doesn't snitch on the Weavers

But the Weavers being delusional also makes sense (probably even fitting for their character)

[whole holly]

sure but they were also well aware of GMS's divinity, it can't explicitly be attributed to weavers

[spark valve]

if only eva conveniently had dialogue saying that she was an attempt at weavers reproducing and that she mimicked a weaver

oh wait

I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task.
Hornet: I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.
Hornet: Are you too an attempt to defy that cruel constraint?
A flawed attempt. A life spun from rune and shell, sustained only by its cage. My thoughts may mimic a Weavers, but my senses are my own.

[stray fog]

Yeah Im on the side of her being just a child now

No anti gms weapon

[spark valve]

the eva sprite even straight up has a weaver body type

[stray fog]

One more thing,

Sylphsong and her reading one's nature are not really weaver abilities

Those might be higher being things

[whole holly]

how does that cancel out opposing arguments? and how can we prove their motive was explicitly reproducing and not mimicking divinity(how are you going to assert it's only weaver divinity?)

[spark valve]

we can prove it because it's stated that that was the motive

burden of proof is on you that it's not actually that

[whole holly]

this was not addressed with counterarguments, specifically this part : weaver's wouldn't have substantial motive to mimic their own divinity rather than GMS's, unless you are going to imply that them mimicking divinity and having child was same motive which needs evidence

[stray fog]

Its about which motive has more evidence to back it up

[whole holly]

both motive's are stated

[spark valve]

sylphsong is facilitated by her being fully made of soul, the sight is also presumably a soul ability and non hbs have that (eg mask maker)

the only stated motive is reproducing making a fake god to kill or replace gms isn't stated

[stray fog]

We don't know for sure if its the sight or just something very similar

[whole holly]

there was two motives stated, divinity mimicked in form to frail

[spark valve]

which applies to reproducing

[whole holly]

how so?

[stray fog]

Weavers being "divine"

[spark valve]

Lady, you mistake. What seems a cage is as much my shell as the form inside.
I was born within this space. To leave would be my death, an uninspired end, though one I've sometimes wished would come.
I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task.
Hornet: I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.
Hornet: Are you too an attempt to defy that cruel constraint?
A flawed attempt. A life spun from rune and shell, sustained only by its cage.

she is a flawed attempt at mimicking divinity (reproducing) because she is a form too frail (sustained only by the cage)

[whole holly]

divinity is reproducing?

[spark valve]

hell mimicking divinity could apply either to her being a weaver (therefore divine) or the act of motherhood itself

[stray fog]

Mimicking divinity (Weavers) is reproducing

[whole holly]

weaver's aren't only divine species in Pharloom

[spark valve]

they are as far as weavers are concerned

they also don't have to be

for the statement to make sense

at the end of the day there's a clearly stated motivation for making eva, you're just making stuff up to post hoc rationalize a misinterpretation of the text

[stray fog]

Eva generating infinite soul would make sense if she was meant to be a replacement for gms (since gms is pale)

[spark valve]

she probably doesn't actually generate infinite soul sylphsong is just a bunch of it

[silver meadow]

also how do you explain the appearance of the Herald in silksong he appears if you do his mission at any ending but I don't know, he's one of the strangest NPCs 🤔

[whole holly]

you mean mimicking a child of weavers(divine species?) if so why did her unique abilities materialize, such as Sylphsong and Insight of Nature, which would make her more failed mimic of GMS rather than Weaver abilities/divinity which don't reach that potential

[spark valve]

gms has neither of those abilities

[stray fog]

The point still stands

• Sylphean slugs are related to paleness (through pale oil)

[spark valve]

weavers are descended from a pale being the connection doesn't mean eva was supposed to be one

[stray fog]

That's the thing I'm still not sure about

[whole holly]

what did i misinterpret, my main challenge to your point is that how can you assert that divinity only applies to weaver's and why doesn't her abilities mimic weaver's as result?

[lean temple]

He's there to witness the age pass, whether by freeing Pharloom or by having it destroyed. He observes the passing of every age

[spark valve]

she's supposed to be a weaver but she isn't literally the same as them it's really not that weird

also weavers having an existing term for crests means they could perceive them the sight could just be a weaver ability

[limpid summit]

Eva was not built to replace GMS or anything but she was built during GMS’s time

[stray fog]

And hornet is the only pale weaver (descendant) we know of, so eva being sylph-related makes sense if she was pale

[limpid summit]

But it’s as Tammo says

[whole holly]

GMS can also make Silk to similar scale of Sylphsong presumably and sense Weaver's

[limpid summit]

The dialogue frames her as an attempt to circumvent the curse

[spark valve]

they're all pale in the sense of being derived from gms

eva is just not an elevated bug she's made purely of silk

[spark valve]

don't want this to just get glossed over

[silver meadow]

yes ok I agree, but beyond that I want to say it doesn't foreshadow anything more in that sense?

[limpid summit]

IMO he does

[lean temple]

He's doing his own thing mostly

[limpid summit]

“Stone will break and steel shall rust”

It’s debatable but I think he’s foreshadowing a conflict with the Steel Masters

[lean temple]

His dialogue can be interpreted to mean whatever you want

[limpid summit]

That’s the great change that is coming

[stray fog]

As the #1 steel city fan, I approve of this

[spark valve]

great change has already come he might just come back for steel whatever if another age ends there

[foggy fractal]

are you really the #1 steel city fan ?

[lean temple]

Or he's just reiterating how he'll always readjust as everything else falls and dies

[stray fog]

Yes

[foggy fractal]

😱

[lean temple]

True

[limpid summit]

I used to be the #1 sharpe fan but now I’m the #1 Skynx Nosk fan and you can’t be two things at once

[stray fog]

I want to be ancient civ and steel city fan, but steel city is cooler

[silver meadow]

yes, I really liked his dialogues and since the first Hollow Knight, I don't know, he always gets something extra out of me.

[whole holly]

i mean, now that i read tammo's comment, i did gain more insight, they mostly wanted a child and mimicking divinity as byproduct of process most likely, but divinity can apply to Weaver's and GMS's since they are both divine, they talk about mimicking divinity which is specific compared to mimicking weavers, this was probably intentional and it could apply to both GMS and Weaver at same time

[spark valve]

Though maybe not yet, not this present, hmmm? Maybe in a future far, when your actions might hail me so again?
even says so himself

[limpid summit]

I mean far future I don’t know

That probably isn’t within the scope of the game

[plain gazelle]

for the record i'm with nika on the eva thing, I think she's meant to be one of the ways they tried to supplant GMS, but ended up too weak for the job

[limpid summit]

He’s just blankly being like haha you come with great change don’t you

[spark valve]

that is not what her purpose explicitly was

[lean temple]

They both have silken sights ig

[spark valve]

I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task.
Hornet: I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.
Hornet: Are you too an attempt to defy that cruel constraint?
A flawed attempt. A life spun from rune and shell, sustained only by its cage. My thoughts may mimic a Weavers, but my senses are my own.

[plain gazelle]

i mean by definition any child of a weaver is an attempt to overcome the curse of not having children, that doesn't mean she wasn't made for a specific purpose in mind

[whole holly]

divinity itself probably broadly applies to both GMS and Weavers

[whole holly]

dual purpose is feasible

[spark valve]

ok so you're just making up some random second purpose that isn't supported whatsoever

[whole holly]

that's a quote we already provided counterarguments to, that you haven't addressed

[spark valve]

and eva doesn't decide to mention at all when asked whether she was an attempt to defy their curse

[spark valve]

no you didn't

[whole holly]

dual purpose isn't feasible? and GMS isn't divine?

[spark valve]

hollow knight fans can't read

[limpid summit]

Eva was made around the time where weavers would be chafing under GMS its not founded in evidence to assume that she was made for that regard but you could extrapolate that it was all towards gaining greater autonomy for themselves

But she was never supposed to be some ultimate weapon

[whole holly]

this is counterargument you are ignoring

[spark valve]

being able to reproduce would be more autonomy yes

that's not a counterargument lmao

[limpid summit]

You gotta stop dropping the ult

[plain gazelle]

no, i'm referring to the fact that she's "a wish cast vain, divinity mimicked in form too frail."

a wish cast vain meaning: she did not fulfill the purpose we created her for. if their only goal was to have a child they succeeded, albeit one constrained to live in a tank, so clearly they wanted somethign else from her. divinity mimicked makes much more sense to be GMS than talking about themselves. AND she's found in Weavenest Atla, the place dedicated to a bunch of attempts to overthrow GMS

[spark valve]

it's correct every time

[spark valve]

they would not have succeeded because she's too frail to exist outside the shell which she says and says is the reason she's a bad attempt

[foggy fractal]

no no dropping the ult as soon as you have it is viable/efficient

[spark valve]

Hornet: Are you too an attempt to defy that cruel constraint?
A flawed attempt. A life spun from rune and shell, sustained only by its cage.

[plain gazelle]

you don't have to keep copy and pasting the same text I read it 🙂

[spark valve]

all evidence to the contrary

she is a wish cast in vain because she was a failed attempt to reproduce

eva says why she was a failure and it is in fact the same reason the harp says it's a wish cast in vain

too frail to exist outside of the shell

[sinful nimbus]

Weavers believed themselves to be divine

That's what divinity mimicked means

Anything other than what Eva explicitly states she was made for is baseless

[spark valve]

no see nyleth is also considered divine so that means maybe eva is an attempt at making a nyleth

[whole holly]

an argument or set of reasons put forward to oppose an idea or theory developed in another argument. tammo's argument : she's an attempt to circumvent their inability to reproduce normally and weavers have a motivation to do that which is EXPLICITLY why they made eva my counterargument: how can we prove their motive was explicitly reproducing and not mimicking divinity(how are you going to assert it's only weaver divinity?)

[spark valve]

we can prove it because it's what eva says the motive was do you know what the word explicit means

Hornet: Are you too an attempt to defy that cruel constraint?
A flawed attempt. A life spun from rune and shell, sustained only by its cage.
this proves it

[plain gazelle]

I mean this is clearly not going anywhere because there's like two relevant lines of dialogue and we've both already read them

[spark valve]

evidently not

if you were to in fact read them

[sinful nimbus]

Reading requires comprehension

[spark valve]

that would be helpful

but that does not seem like it's going to happen

[plain gazelle]

ok

[edgy river]

Wish we got more perspectives on Eva that wasn't just herself

[spark valve]

eva even says that the differences between her and weavers are what created distance between them which only makes sense because she was in fact an attempt at creating weavers

[whole holly]

i meant there to this point were no argument's provided on why Eva's divinity only mimics Weaver's and not GMS's

[spark valve]

the fact that she wasn't identical to weavers creating a rift between her and them is in fact evidence of what I'm saying

[whole holly]

this is point that needs to be addressed to reach conclusion

[spark valve]

it has been

many times

[sinful nimbus]

Sylphsong is because she's a being made entirely of silk

The sight is likely a default weaver ability

[spark valve]

or if it isn't the fact that eva has it and the others didn't made them dislike her, in which case she wasn't meant to have it

[whole holly]

GMS and Eva can sense nature as well, Sylphsong resembles GMS's scale of making silk rather than Weaver's, given glowing crown/symbol and GMS's crown resemble each other

[spark valve]

gms created weavers who created eva out of their silk which they got from gms

gms sensing nature is something you just made up

[sinful nimbus]

GMS can likely sense nature too, yes

However we know Eva was made to mimic the weavers and not GMS because Eva says as much
Therefore only one conclusion is suppored by the text

IE her mimicking GMS is baseless

[spark valve]

she mimics gms insofar as weavers do

[plain gazelle]

Again, she's by default an attempt to defy the curse of having children, because she is a child of weavers. The question is why the weavers were trying to make a child out of what seems to be pure silk/soul, in the depths of their secret lab where they were trying to figure out ways to overthrow GMS, while stating that she is an attempt at mimicking divinity, when we already know they have ambitions to have one of their own replace GMS because their final hurrah in pharloom was to die and hope some descendent would come along powerful enough to overthrow her, and then be upset when she turned out too frail. It really doesn't seem like much of a stretch to say she was meant to be capable of replacing GMS

[whole holly]

Eva explains what Soul Imprint is, which they know unlike Weavers, she has divine knowledge beyond weaver's to the point where she says Crest's are outdated Weaver Term

[spark valve]

they were trying to make a child out of silk because that's the method available to them

[sinful nimbus]

How else would they make a child

They can't breed

[edgy nebula]

topic?

[spark valve]

eva's purpose

because even the most explicit shit has to be a big thing

[sinful nimbus]

I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task.

[edgy nebula]

isnt it implied to be to overthrow gms

[spark valve]

no

[plain gazelle]

(yes)

[edgy nebula]

huh

[spark valve]

her purpose is as a means of weavers reproducing

I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task.
Hornet: I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.
Hornet: Are you too an attempt to defy that cruel constraint?
A flawed attempt. A life spun from rune and shell, sustained only by its cage. My thoughts may mimic a Weavers, but my senses are my own.
Over time, that difference brought only distance between us.

[edgy nebula]

mmm

herrah really the only good weaver mother damn

[sinful nimbus]

But its not practical to do

As elaborated by Eva they opted instead to try and create a weaver through runes and artificial shells

An "attempt to defy that cruel constraint"

[spark valve]

nobody is saying it is

arguing with nobody

[sinful nimbus]

Those instances are exceptionally rare

[whole holly]

Eva mimicking divinity and her saying she is weaver's attempt at having child are separate contexts, especially since weavers have children, which would conclude that Weavers never tried to have child biological way to significant extent/or biological children were no divine and got straight to making Eva

[whole holly]

what about little weavers

[spark valve]

weavenests are primarily places to hide from gms they did everything there that they wouldn't do when gms can see

[whole holly]

and Weaver's wanted kin that could overthrow GMS and weave them free

[sinful nimbus]

Those are weird in the context of Silksong revealing that Weavers breeding successfully is very rare

[plain gazelle]

in addition to everything else, i mean - look at it

[spark valve]

eva is made from silk sourced from gms that is not evidence she's supposed to be a new gms

[whole holly]

we don't know exact extent of rarity, just that is it near impossible and difficult

[spark valve]

eva's actual form doesn't even have that and is clearly closer to a weaver's

[sinful nimbus]

OK? That doesn't change that Eva was made because they are in fact rare

[plain gazelle]

i mean correct me if i'm wrong but i don't think that halo shows up in any other silk/weaver related creatures. it's just GMS's halo and eva's

[sinful nimbus]

They couldn't create her through copulation

[whole holly]

but Little weaver's then persist to discredit that point

[sinful nimbus]

Its a pretty clear retcon

Little Weavers were created before ANY weaver lore

[whole holly]

but why not try to overcome difficult birth rather than getting straight to creating eva

[sinful nimbus]

They don't even use silk infused with soul

[whole holly]

this point is still persistent

[sinful nimbus]

What?

[spark valve]

who says they didn't lol

[sinful nimbus]

They didn't think it was feasible to create a child that way its very explicit

[spark valve]

they knew it was a cruel curse so they probably tried 💀

[sinful nimbus]

.

[spark valve]

eva was also created before the citadel and before they realized that ruling wouldn't be allat

so before they would want to be woven free

because they thought they would be

[plain gazelle]

i don't think the timeline is at all definite enough to say she was created before the citadel

[whole holly]

they wanted to be free from GMS control though, she was made in Weavenest, which she wouldn't have to be if they were free to do so

[spark valve]

ok so you know you're bullshitting with the one to weave us free stuff

[spark valve]

it is

she remembers her mothers building the traps from which the citadel would be born

[sinful nimbus]

They were making traps to seal GMS after they sealed her ofc

[plain gazelle]

well this is gonna be a whole timeline discussion which i don't really wanna have lol

[sinful nimbus]

Team Cherry are truly masters at telling vague lore

[stray fog]

Sylphsong is the only problem with eva having nothing to do with gms

[spark valve]

yes it's so vague whether stuff that's a part of the citadel's containment being developed there suggests when the place was used relative to the construction of the citadel

[spark valve]

she doesn't have nothing to do with gms she just wasn't made as a replacement for her

[stray fog]

Then why sylph

[spark valve]

weavers are gms's spawn using magic they inherited from her to create eva

[limpid summit]

Spirit

It’s like saying like pale or mask or soul

[spark valve]

and yes eva is made entirely of soul

[frigid belfry]

soul shenanigans considering what sylphs are irl

I doubt eva would make the needle sharper

[stray fog]

I know
Im saying that sylphsong suggests that she was meant to be a higher being

[whole holly]

why does she know more about weavers about crests, even calling it soul imprints

[spark valve]

you just made that up

weavers know what crests are

[frigid belfry]

she was, or at least meant to mimic the weavers who saw themselves as divine

[blissful harbor]

doesn’t she say that the term crests comes from weavers

[spark valve]

yes

[edgy nebula]

yes

[blissful harbor]

doesn’t seem like she knows more, not like we have a lot of living weavers willing to use their crazy eyes on us

[gentle aspen]

no
You’re right but you’re gonna get a big head from all these yes’s

[blissful harbor]

too late

[whole holly]

you can't read, i am saying she knows more since she calls crests: old weaver terms, she is more knowledgeable about Crests

[spark valve]

no it just means she's recognizing hornet using a weaver term

[blissful harbor]

speaking of which
do yall think eva would have swirl eyes like mask makers and mr mush

[spark valve]

weavers having a word for something complicated doesn't literally mean they don't understand it

[gentle aspen]

no

[edgy nebula]

maybe

i feel like her sight is didferent from the sight

[foggy fractal]

a big head like a weaver's head ?

[edgy nebula]

since mask maker doesnt comment on horner’s crest at all