sk-lore

[edgy river]

She mentions the plasmafied entities remember her of a similar infection, which is the radiances infection

[blissful harbor]

i hope it’s not a HB

[silk dirge]

i disagree with void shouldnt have been in silksong i just think it needed a special twist to it to make it different from hk

[edgy river]

It's similar for her because of the radiance

[silk dirge]

maybe something with lava

[muted lantern]

The are referring to a different line

[sinful nimbus]

In my home caves, when once this substance was allowed to flourish, I saw similar aberrations. This is wonder tainted strong with revulsion.
This can't be the infection **because the infection's spread wasn't correlated with the spread of lifeblood **

[quartz flicker]

Lifeblood was artificially introduced to the environment of the Wormways, a biome extremely dense with Groms.

[edgy river]

Oh I forgot about this line

[muted lantern]

Plasmium lacking soul and being related to the abyss is very interesting to me, and I hope that gets expanded on.

[stray grove]

You don’t have to be an asshole malenia ignorance isn’t a sin

[blissful harbor]

is it really related to the abyss

aside from the lbb

[sinful nimbus]

What

[stray grove]

Sorry could you put that in bold so I can understand it

It’s not passive aggressive enough

[cedar skiff]

personally i wish it functioned consistently actually the void taking over living bugs was smth i wasnt a fan of

[sinful nimbus]

Discord user discovers emphasis

[blissful harbor]

that’s pretty cool actually

void melds with soul already we know thst

[stray grove]

Maybe discord user should discover changing and growing as a person

[edgy river]

Yeah I feel like what happened in wormways was a sideffect of lifeblood but wouldn't be nearly as bad without the cientist tinkering with it

[blissful harbor]

it’s the same but with the haunting

[silk dirge]

i think it couldve been interesting if they did something with like the lava messing up the void

[muted lantern]

Referring to abyss creature and the location of the lifeblood gate in the abyss

[foggy fractal]

instead of the shade lord we have the lava lord who lavas all over the place

[cedar skiff]

you are right conceptually its a cool exploration i guess im not a fan of the execution? mossbag kinda put it into words in his video actually with it overlapping with the haunting it makes it feel kind of flimsy

[edgy river]

It doesn't tho

Silk takes over bugs. The void in imbued in the silk

[sinful nimbus]

The void haunting makes mechanical sense

What's weird is TK needing to beat the tendrils into submission

[cedar skiff]

i do find it interesting that void and this “plasmium” have a similar effect on the bodies of bugs

[edgy river]

The void bugs is because silken threads are doing their thing just like before act 3, just this time void gets into them as well.

Void alone doesn't do that

[chilly gyro]

Hey, so if plasmium dose that to a person, how the fuck is Jonni still normal?

[blissful harbor]

they had to aura farm before their sister

show her who is stronger

[sinful nimbus]

Joni seems to be more magically linked to the substance

[foggy fractal]

W aura farm

[spark valve]

tk canonically enjoys fighting

[stray grove]

That’s not meant to have any lore implications

[blissful harbor]

“you almost got ripped apart by these little worms they are nothing to me”

[stray grove]

It’s just hype moments and aura

[blissful harbor]

saves her life

[sinful nimbus]

Its in the game cry about it

[stray grove]

TK isn’t even meant to be there it shows up last second with no buildup to aura farm and dips

Be fr

[chilly gyro]

Maybe it was some kinda warlock pact type deal?

[edgy river]

I also watched mossbag video, yes

[stray grove]

Ok?

[heavy gyro]

The lore implication is that the voidheart is not omnipotent

[edgy river]

Ok sorry I didn't intend to be mean

[stray grove]

I’ve been saying this since before the mossbag video

His interpretation happens to align with my own

[cedar skiff]

yeah that does make sense. i think im just not a fan of this layering but void n soul interacting i hope is something that gets explored more

[edgy river]

But like, I think discussing something in the game is fine

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah and

[stray grove]

There’s nothing to discuss

[sinful nimbus]

Its aura farming but what is shown is inconsistent with the lore

That's all

[stray grove]

TK wanted to make an entrance

[edgy river]

We had it on TKs spells before just not within a creature that is not made out of both of them

[stray grove]

That’s not inconsistent

[sinful nimbus]

That's bad framing

Its also baseless

Stop making stuff up to excuse retcons

[foggy fractal]

y'know what will be based ?

sea of sorrow.

[muted lantern]

I'm still waiting for ground level of median emotion. Maybe sky of joy

[foggy fractal]

sky of joy 🗣️

[edgy river]

Sky of joy would go crazy

[muted lantern]

Sky islands would be sick but that wouldn't really work outside of dream realm

[plain gazelle]

i know it's definitely not happening but i would be so happy if it was a genuine water level, like with swimming mechanics

[edgy river]

Does sky even exist in hk

[blissful harbor]

sky islands???

did someone mention rain world??!

[sinful nimbus]

No TOTK

[edgy river]

There is climate. The gods of thunder for example

[edgy nebula]

the humble magnetite ore

[edgy river]

Maybe with a big enough lake, like SoS, it could make clouds underwater

Underground*

[foggy fractal]

🗣️ welcome to the underground

[edgy river]

Like water evaporates and if the ceiling is high enough it makes clouds?????

Then sky islands

[blissful harbor]

anyways to our knowledge, we’ve never seen it

[cedar skiff]

how was the faaall

[blissful harbor]

the nameless town coulddd be, but i’m like almost certain that’s just another massive cave

[sinful nimbus]

Better the comfort of rock above one's head🗣️

[cedar skiff]

i need to come up with a sea of sorrow bingo

its a long time waiting but i have to be able to point and say i predicted this slop

[muted lantern]

But anyway the most conceivable explanation for the void heart retcon is that the void tendrils and the void seeking soul are just involuntary actions like a digestive system. That's at least the best guess to make that scene make sense beyond aura.

[blissful harbor]

yea that’s what i thought since see in the ending for the first time

[cedar skiff]

i mean the void isn’t malicious in nature so i could get behind this

[blissful harbor]

most all the shit in pharloom is void acting on auto pilot

and then TK shows up to put it in check

[edgy river]

What if we get to the top of the world ands it's always just a white liquid called aetherium that's just void but recoloured

[blissful harbor]

don’t ever cook again

[sinful nimbus]

This will be the everbloom in the surface/lands serene

[blissful harbor]

lands serene being the surface is actually peak

[muted lantern]

They should get Jack Black to voice the hollow knight.

[blissful harbor]

and also incredibly predictable

means it’s gonna happen

[sinful nimbus]

We both know TC wouldn't do anything interesting with it 💔

[muted lantern]

By the time hornet gets there the lands serene are gonna be the lands fubar

Or maybe she'll make it so

After arriving

[cedar skiff]

this is copium but i think sea of sorrow will give more karaka lore

and i would enjoy that

[blissful harbor]

on the other side of the map?

they originated from the sea and made their way to the gorge

[cedar skiff]

the water significane

[blissful harbor]

i can see it

[muted lantern]

I do like the karaka, it makes sense the distant remnants of karaka culture might be in what bodies of water remain

[edgy nebula]

always bet on karak lore

[cedar skiff]

exactly

im all in

[ornate pier]

We're gonna have a Saltwater Kai and that's it

Sorry

[cedar skiff]

a journal entry worth billions

[muted lantern]

They will bring back zote for one stupid bit, Mark my words

[cedar skiff]

that single journal entry could be worth one billion lore

[blissful harbor]

honestly i’m surprised SS didn’t have a zote equivalent

[edgy nebula]

which journal entry?

[muted lantern]

Garmond is meant to be, just a more positive version.

[cedar skiff]

a saltwater kai one

[lean temple]

Garmond is the antithesis of Zote

[blissful harbor]

how tf

[cedar skiff]

if that thing were to exist it could imply fun lore

[sinful nimbus]

???

[muted lantern]

I mean garmond also sucks ass at fighting.

[blissful harbor]

i would’ve never got that
and al also how

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway I'm glad that Silksong NPCs aren't clear analogues to the ones in HK

[foggy fractal]

hey guys what's the lore relevance of void tendrils/void in general having four eyes and vgfocus having 4 eyes on each side of head ?

🤔

[blissful harbor]

it’s the desired form of void

[sinful nimbus]

VGFocus is voidy

[blissful harbor]

probably all the AC members thst jumped in

[muted lantern]

The appearance in the curved placement of the eyes reminded me a lot of the abyss creature honestly.

[foggy fractal]

interesting...

[cedar skiff]

team cherry would NOT write this badly

[blissful harbor]

anyways i think it’s just supposed to give off eldrith vibes

[edgy river]

Charlie day Zote

[muted lantern]

It looks like the top row of his eyes to me

[edgy nebula]

what is vgfocus

[foggy fractal]

void given focus

[blissful harbor]

shade lord

[foggy fractal]

also known as:

[blissful harbor]

end of embrace the void

[cedar skiff]

i love the contrast though like we have at least two npcs in hk that off themselves in comparison to the hopecore that is like shakra

[muted lantern]

Its when the pale king dumped Adderall into the void sea

[cedar skiff]

its awesome

[edgy river]

We're stretching a little bit with this one

[edgy nebula]

oh

[edgy river]

Wait maybe not

[blissful harbor]

can’t wait to fight this in sea of sorrow

[muted lantern]

I mean it is called the abyss creature

[cedar skiff]

this thing looks so silly as a sprite png

[edgy river]

True

[blissful harbor]

revealing it’s a giant butterfly

[muted lantern]

Close enough... Welcome back moonlight butterfly.

[cedar skiff]

and seriously what even is this build

how does one achieve this

[edgy nebula]

his sprite really got smudged so much

[blissful harbor]

trauma and some good hecklers

[edgy nebula]

instead of talking about void we should talk about the significane of kais having steel inside them

[cedar skiff]

do they?

[edgy nebula]

yeah

[cedar skiff]

i didnt know this

[blissful harbor]

kai’s?

whats a kai

[edgy nebula]

steelspine kai are called steelspine kai and spinebeak kai are described as having steel horns

[edgy nebula]

coral tower fish

[cedar skiff]

you are truthful to your title because i always find out smth new about the karaka through you

[edgy nebula]

their bodies even change color as the spikes extend

[viscid ridge]

I love wanting to look at the picture in closer detail and seeing this 🤣

[blissful harbor]

khann was a conquerer
he made sure his army was decked out ofc

[edgy nebula]

join me on february 8th for my presentation on corpora clusters

[edgy river]

I think it's because human polution affected the marine life /s

[blissful harbor]

actually interesting though
if the sos decides to expand on karak, could explain why they have steel

[cedar skiff]

the steel city polluted the rivers of pharloom theory

[blissful harbor]

leading into the steel dlc even more

[edgy nebula]

i cant believ the masters threw their microplastics into karaks water

[cedar skiff]

its a fun parallel to the craws

[edgy river]

TC on their way to confirm how much microplastics the fish have in them

[edgy nebula]

no cause those are just fish

[cedar skiff]

plasmium in sos is an analogy for microplastics

[edgy nebula]

fish with boduies of steel

[blissful harbor]

they still need to protect themselves

[edgy nebula]

true yeah

[blissful harbor]

if your known for conquering other lands, chances are you have a lot of enemies
makes sense to make sure all of your kin are protected

[ornate pier]

Silk is microplastics

[blissful harbor]

actually though

[cedar skiff]

it really is damn

[edgy nebula]

yeah silk is literally microplastics

it's in the air, the water, wrapped around your organs

[edgy river]

Omg it is

[cedar skiff]

silk flies are actually just recycled bottles thats great

[muted lantern]

The worst part of hornet killing defenseless squirms is they weren't even haunted if you needolin them

[blissful harbor]

i really love that line
“Alive? Dead? Something worse.”
to me at least, it makes it feel distinct from the infection

[edgy river]

Yeah and it's just like how in real life when the government will melt their people's bodies to make plastic bottles and put them in another human

[ornate pier]

Squirrms are kinda in the same category as slabflies

Also do squirrms produce silk particles

[topaz estuary]

I’d like to imagine ||carmelita’s heart beats at the same tempo as|| Orinoco Flow

[blissful harbor]

no need for spoilers

[muted lantern]

Most enemies do but these guys don't have haunted threads above them

[edgy river]

Writing in this game is so peak

[ornate pier]

Non haunted enemies don't have silk particles on hit

Gurr and trobbio are examples

[blissful harbor]

let’s not get carried away now

[ornate pier]

And the skrill

[cedar skiff]

ok

you gotta admit

the pen is auraful

[muted lantern]

I'll check

[cedar skiff]

whether it makes sense all the time is debatable

in fact the writing sometimes suffers just because something sounds like cool and eloquent

but its still cool and eloquent

[edgy river]

True

[edgy river]

Doesn't it tho? Other than minor hiccups connecting to HK i think it's fine

[blissful harbor]

very true

but those minor hiccups

[ornate pier]

Yea i love the eloquent style of writing the games use

[muted lantern]

None of the lines of the game ever really gave me much confusion

[cedar skiff]

they are minor for my personal enjoyment but man do they lead to heated discussions here

[muted lantern]

People just like complaining here I think

[blissful harbor]

don’t you!

[edgy river]

Honestly er are very lucky to be discussing stuff like this. And it's usually for fun imo

[muted lantern]

I don't really have any major issues with the games story, I just like to joke

[cedar skiff]

ive seen some fun conversations come out of it so its nice! but yeah things get off the rails

[edgy river]

I don't think Plasmium being mildly different subtracts from the game at all, and its more interesting than how it was in HK imo

[blissful harbor]

ehhh

[edgy river]

It's just fun to talk about

[blissful harbor]

i’m feel like making lifeblood literally infection 2 was a bad move

they could’ve made it more unique

[cedar skiff]

it sucks when subjective takes pour into some convos that are supposed to be objective

thats when it goes to hell

[muted lantern]

Again with the lifeblood dlc coming out I'd probably wait to pass judgment until we like, see what they are actually going for.

[edgy river]

I'm personally very invested in understand why does it look like radiances infection.

It's not reuse of ideas, it seems purposeful, they being attention to it on hornets dialogue

[blissful harbor]

i agree, but i mean base game

[silk dirge]

finished the mossbag video and yeah its good

[blissful harbor]

ofc it’s intentional

doesn’t mean i don’t think it could’ve been more unique

[muted lantern]

Also lifeblood always looked extraordinarily similar to the infection, look at light seeds, and then look at life seeds.

[silk dirge]

rip horsebag tho 😭

[edgy river]

Something makes it similar to radiance infection and I love to have that question tbh. Its more interesting than "why was it a tabu"

[silk dirge]

what did bro do to deserve getting sent to the glue factory 💔

[muted lantern]

He was the evil and intimidating horse he had to go

[silk dirge]

true true

[ornate pier]

I haven't watched most of it yet but from the things mentioned in the descriptions and comments it seems like a bunch of his points weren't necessarily retcons

[edgy river]

I agree

[blissful harbor]

why was it taboo was very interesting
it called into question maybe it was because you were feasting on literal newborns
it was an interesting idea of how the PK functioned and what he didn’t like

[ornate pier]

I should go finish it

[edgy river]

Horsebag deserved it fr fr

[blissful harbor]

now it’s just oh he didn’t want an infection running about

[muted lantern]

He's using the actual definition of retcon that doesn't require contradictions.

[blissful harbor]

or cause of the LBB, maybe something with HB drama

[sinful nimbus]

?

[edgy river]

Retcon just means retroactive continuity

Doesn't mean it is a contradiction to cannon

[muted lantern]

Retcon only really necessitates it adds new information to previously established info.

Not that it contradicts it

[ornate pier]

I mean, the title of the video implies contradictions

[edgy river]

Just that it adds to old canom in retrospect

[sinful nimbus]

That is uh not what retcon means

[silk dirge]

yeah when we talk about it here we talk about contradictions usually

[sinful nimbus]

And what he mentions are contradictions

[silk dirge]

i mean not all of it tho

[edgy river]

It literally is

[silk dirge]

like the stuff at the end of the video isnt really a contradiction of anything

like the pale beings related to soul shit

or the mask shit

which he does make clear

[muted lantern]

adjusted, ignored, supplemented, or contradicted.

[edgy river]

He talks about all retcons including the ones that do break canom

That's why the video is titled that

[muted lantern]

The first half of the video, then he goes on to retcons that don't.

He says as much

[silk dirge]

what sort of retcon is this https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1444829979480428594/1451325920634994859/SPOILER_2025-12-18_13-29-32.mp4?ex=69466cd7&is=69451b57&hm=ff75c004bfcd9a4248a9324d51e2334881010421cbd707cecfdc459fbd17500f&

[ornate pier]

Why is mossbag so insistent on the little weavers being kids?

[sinful nimbus]

I don't really see how that's a retcon

[cedar skiff]

id also argue the thing with hallownest and sapience isnt really a silksong retcon either

[muted lantern]

Ie ancient masks being pale ore is a retcon, but its just additional information we were told before.

[silk dirge]

yeah but he mentions it in the video

[sinful nimbus]

Look at em

Yea true

[silk dirge]

yeah

[limpid summit]

Which one

[silk dirge]

and also like that one is just necessary

or else silksong doesnt work

you cant really have a kingdom of non sapient beings

[edgy river]

It literally is it just doesn't break cannon

[sinful nimbus]

In what way is that a retcon

[plain gazelle]

it's retroactive continuity

[edgy river]

It retroactively adds details to already established lore

Present in hk

[sinful nimbus]

No one uses the word retcon like that

[plain gazelle]

mossbag is

[sinful nimbus]

Which is dumb

[plain gazelle]

ok

[edgy river]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroactive_continuity

Also it is explained in the video also it's one Google search away

Also it's used like that when talking about it in writing circled because it's a useful literally device

[cedar skiff]

doesnt mean its not the correct definition

[sinful nimbus]

The definition is stupid

[muted lantern]

"I'm right because I don't like the actual meaning of the word"

[blissful harbor]

what else would they be

i mean it’s in the name

little weaver

[edgy river]

The duality of
"It's wrong because no one uses it like that"

And

"He is wrong for using it like that"

[blissful harbor]

unless they are literally just like
tiny weavers

but that’s dumb

[muted lantern]

Retcon became a buzzword in fandom and people act like it only has negative connotations.

[ornate pier]

Size

[blissful harbor]

we see no tiny weavers in pharloom

why are they hallownest exclusive

[ornate pier]

Honestly it could be either but the game doesn't use. Any age related terms to describe them

[blissful harbor]

and if they were born there in hallownest the exact problem still stands

[viscid ridge]

Are people arguing about the mossbag video?

[ornate pier]

The game usually mentions thta bugs are young if they are juveniles

[edgy nebula]

we know what adult weavers look like so why would they look like that

[sinful nimbus]

It doesn't have to be negative but it usually does entail a contradiction of some sort and using it to mean anything added to previous lore is bizarre

[ornate pier]

Just natural variations in appearance ig

[muted lantern]

The only remotely compelling explanation I've seen for little weavers is theory that maybe the little weavers are weavers degenerating back into pharlid form due to the infection.

[ornate pier]

Herrah still looks pretty different

[viscid ridge]

Still think the little weavers are a smaller variant of weavers, or they are some sort of craft, but i still think the former is more possible

[blissful harbor]

none seen in pharloom tho

the home

[ornate pier]

This is an interesting explanation tbh

[blissful harbor]

imma think they are deep hunters taught in weaver ways

less contractions there

[ornate pier]

That is weird though, that weavers don't vary much in appearance in pharloom

[ornate pier]

Idk i think this is kinda lame.

[muted lantern]

But that's, what the word means, it's not just referring to contradictions but a number of things. Not liking the definition does not change the definition.

[ornate pier]

But it could work

[blissful harbor]

how so

the weavers spreading their craft with deepnest is cool

midwife ever says much of deepenests history was told in their silk

makes sense some of deepenest would go with them

or learn i should say

[muted lantern]

There are different types of retcons

Retcon is just typically used to refer to their most egregious form.

[ornate pier]

Idk the enemies being actual weavers sounds cooler in my head

But this is purely subjective

[blissful harbor]

it makes the least sense tho

[viscid ridge]

More plausible then them being deephunters

[blissful harbor]

why do we never see a tiny variant of weavers in pharloom

why are they hallownest exclusive

[viscid ridge]

They're probably not

[blissful harbor]

when it’s supposed to be very rare for weavers to have kids

[blissful harbor]

well my good sir

i propose you with the simple question
where they at

[viscid ridge]

I think in future content we'll get dome explanation for the little weavers and herrah. Just trust the process

[viscid ridge]

Probably not shown yet

[blissful harbor]

well i find that a very lame explaination, no offense
we have to use what he have now
if he waited for like SS to come out to come up with ideas for lore we’d only be having real lore discussions now

[wise sand]

Its technically not impossible that the little weavers are just baby weavers

[blissful harbor]

with what is presented, little weaves don’t make sense

[blissful harbor]

it’s possible
it just throws into question eva’s line of pregnancy supposedly being a rare thing

[viscid ridge]

My guess is the little weavers variant has ties to the weavenest in far fields, being all about speed and the corridor leading to the secret chamber is very small for any weaver to fit through

[blissful harbor]

cause like
there are tons of them shits

[viscid ridge]

But thats just a theory, so i dont bet on it being correct

[viscid ridge]

Exactly, improbable doesn't equate with impossible, and considering the weavers have been in deepnest for so long, they probably had children

[blissful harbor]

that many tho?

you can find multiple in the same room

doesn’t seem that rare to me ngl

[viscid ridge]

As said, long time in deepnest

[blissful harbor]

they are still children

unless they were born recently

[wise sand]

infection idk

[blissful harbor]

possible, but still
that many?

[viscid ridge]

Not really, hornet is smaller than them, and you have to remember that if they are actually weaver spawn that they are halfbreeds

[blissful harbor]

they all stayed kids long enough for he infection to grab them?

[viscid ridge]

So they probably aren't going to be the same size as the original weavers

[blissful harbor]

actually interesting

deep hunter weaver hybrids

but again, all weavers are female
it’s supposed to be a rare thing to get pregnant
that’s my main thing
like there are just so many little weavers

it doesn’t feel like a rare thing

[viscid ridge]

Again, the weavers have probably been in deepnest a very long time and the thing we don't know for certain that they are weaver spawn, which is why i am more on the weaver varient boat

[timber pond]

Depends on the passage of time and the effort made.

But we will never ever figure out how much time actually passes between events

[limpid summit]

I don’t think the little weavers are devolved weavers or weaver relatives or something

I think they genuinely are just Weaver kids before TC thought of that aspect of Weaver lore

I mean if you count spawnpoints there isn’t that much of them anyway

Like 20-30

God Tamer probably doesn’t canonically have infinite beasts

[timber pond]

Still, If the Standing of hallow nest and its decline have taken Ages and Ages, the likelyhood of having a few Weaver lookingn things which we see around goes up

We also see dead weavers in the Den

mabye they had kids and died right after

In that case, it depends on how Long Events have lasted for. But that is something we can only feel through the weight of Ruins in HK and even then it just gives us a Vauge idea with no particualr length.

So sure, it might be that Team cherry didnt think of it, but they gave themselves enough interpretative leeway so its not totally deniable

[blissful harbor]

how much is a lot to you apple

[limpid summit]

A bushel of apples

[timber pond]

Well i mean, if there were 30 weavers 1 Weaver has 1 kid over trying for like 150 years or someshit, then no it probably isnt alot

[blissful harbor]

that’s a lot of assumptions ngl

[limpid summit]

If your whole gang of spiders only had like 30 kids in a universe where people have kids by the dozens that’s enough to constitute a curse

[blissful harbor]

true actuallyyy

[muted lantern]

Totally possible, however I personally prefer to try to find explanations that are more satisfying in lore. I generally try to give writers the benefit of the doubt that they thought through retroactive explanations for the contradictions caused by their retcons, unless proven otherwise.

[timber pond]

yeah, but you make these assumptions in acordance to how wide of a gap in knowledge you have.

Like how time passed and how the soceity evovled we dont know.

[limpid summit]

That’s fair

That’s why I genuinely think Herrah is a Drapemite

So I guess I can’t be like no you’re wrong

[timber pond]

If the subject has less concrete connecting points, then it can be addressed in the space between. Especially when The length of time in-between events will never be told.

This is why i dont think lifeblood is "retconed" or alot of other Vauge threads are. Because they left enough Space in-between to Fill in any Contradiction if they further expand upon it like we are seeing with SoS.

[muted lantern]

Yeah it's a purely subjective reasoning I understand.

[timber pond]

The Weaver stuff can honestly all be answered if they even give us like a vauge memory of Hollownests's weaver Den Societal evolution.

[wispy drum]

I got a theory what if in the dlc we get a plasmium crest from the alchemist master like our masks are now lifeblood or something like that

[stuck widget]

Very unlikely to happen but it would be cool if there was an npc in Sea of Sorrow based on an immortal jellyfish and it was over a million to billions years old: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turritopsis_dohrnii

I say based since I know other animals other than insects most likely don’t exist in the HK-verse, but still bug like a cool animal like the Immortal Jellyfish. Also I know this isn’t exactly a based lore thing, but I felt like sharing this here instead of the other channels due to how hectic things are there.

[viscid ridge]

Honestly we already have monomon in the first game, but another jellyfish npc would be cool

And i doubt jellyfish are rare in the hollow knight world considering Hornet says its the most simple form of life

[plain gazelle]

silksong itself already has yomama

[viscid ridge]

Yo mama so old her childhood friend is a dickinsonia

[stuck widget]

Still, one based on a real life little god like being (I’m just joking of course) and being canonically way older than any other being in the HK-verse would be cool. Forgot about Monomon though, my bad (and Yomama lmao).

[viscid ridge]

Honestly an immortal jellyfish higher being would fit pretty well with the sea next to pharloom

[stuck widget]

Hell, maybe an eel god of lightning would be awesome (only in my dreams of course, but at the very least I hope the Sea of Sorrow dlc really delves into the unique haunting beauty of the deep sea using real weird animals like the immortal jellyfish like I mentioned).

[viscid ridge]

But honestly thinking about the oldest type of organism in the world, they probably weren't very smart, truly just living off of instinct, untill the ancient civilization came into being

[viscid ridge]

A eel wouldn't really fit but i see the vision

[stuck widget]

An eel inspired bug like creature at least, if that can work.

Okay, maybe large isopod npcs

https://tenor.com/view/isopod-isopod-pet-giant-isopod-giant-isopod-pet-isopod-cute-gif-3489078453437852338

[viscid ridge]

I have no doubt that a lot of the new npcs will be crabs and shrimps and such

We even have mollusks and barnacles already if the area in the old trailer is still the same

I mean we know mollusks exist, or at least existed in the world, sk seeing them wouldn't be a surprise

[cloud mesa]

what new areas r yall expecting in the dlc? i’m 90% pharloon bay (or whatever it will be called) will be added but island? underwater stuff? pirates????

[stuck widget]

Something I found when looking up Hollow Knight crabs🔥 https://www.reddit.com/r/HollowKnight/s/ygwGwtCDnk

I hope we get to meet pirates

Oh, and I definitely feel like there could be some lovecraft mythos inspiration as well

[cloud mesa]

ooo i didn’t think of that but that makes so much sense!

[viscid ridge]

One of the islands i think looks like a gloom repurpose, and one i think maybe be a broken ship

[stuck widget]

Unrelated but I love that your pfp blends in well with the overall layout of the site lmfao

[stuck widget]

Bro thinks he’s Gilly

[cloud mesa]

i rlly rlly want hornet to get a ship

[viscid ridge]

She will, the thing she stands in front of is a ship

Or submarine

[stuck widget]

Even perhaps, the ever elusive…Zoteboat

[limpid summit]

I would expect the poop village from the trailer and maybe some kind of like tide pool area

They could do some interesting biodiverse enemies with that

I mean the HK DLCs didn’t really add much in the way of areas

So what can we guess

[viscid ridge]

I think honestly most of the enemies will be crab themed

Maybe some barnacles will be area hazards

[edgy nebula]

i want a giant barnacle boss

let me sketch something up

[viscid ridge]

Honestly im pretty sad that the leech enemies got placed in the void, cause they honestly fit in more in a ocean biome than the bloody abyss

[stuck widget]

Real. Well, at least we can still have Antarctic scale worms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eulagisca_gigantea

[edgy nebula]

okay nevermind im bad at making designs, but a barnacle boss would still be rad

[limpid summit]

A barnacle boss like a barnacled bug or a barnacle itself

[edgy nebula]

either

i was thinking bug with a barnacle for a head

[ornate pier]

Barnacle pirate captain mayebe

If we consider the barnacles are like the guys

Shown in the trailer

[agile surge]

am i allowed to link docs? cause i have a lot to say about the bell beast and i dont want to clog up the chat

[edgy nebula]

it could bare resemblance to stalking devouts as a cool callback

[limpid summit]

That’s so tuff actually

I really like it

[edgy nebula]

tyty

[viscid ridge]

Idk who to credit but i saw these crab designs years ago and i think its gonna resemble these

And i like the concept of using hooks as weapons so i hope to GOD that its gonna be the case for the bugs of the bay

[foggy fractal]

looks like tidetale stuff

[foggy fractal]

the humble ari's sketchbook:

[edgy nebula]

the anomalocaris and duel wielding crab are tuff as shit

[viscid ridge]

Please please please add hooks to the hollow knight weapon variety 🙏🙏🙏🙏

[edgy nebula]

im surprised they didnt add hooks with the pondcatchers

[graceful grail]

Since GMS is a pale being and so is PK, that means they’re related? Or is pale being just a title?

[foggy fractal]

pale is an actual descriptor of their being, but as far as we know they aren't related

[graceful grail]

It’s just when the snail shamans are talking to hornet they say that GMS was one of her pale KIN

[foggy fractal]

gms created weavers and a weaver had Hornet

[graceful grail]

Is the radiance a pale being?

[edgy nebula]

no

[foggy fractal]

nah

[graceful grail]

Are we sure, how do we know for certain?

she seems just as pale as the rest of the pale beings

[foggy fractal]

afaik she's never described as pale
plus her light is different from beings that are pale, hers is more yellow/orange

[graceful grail]

That’s because it’s the color of essence.

[ornate pier]

Essence varies in color a lot

[graceful grail]

It just seems like the pale beings are very much linked to the powers of the world

PK - Soul
Radiance - Essence
GMS - Silk

Maybe there’s something connecting them all

[foggy fractal]

true, its sometimes pink

[stray grove]

Radiance isn’t a pale being
Pale beings are connected to soul. Silk is repeatedly called soul and both GMS and PK are associated with it

[graceful grail]

Got it, pale beings are associated with soul

[ornate pier]

I mean the dream nail can collect soul

[stray grove]

Not even just pale beings, the attribute pale seems to denote soul

[ornate pier]

So there might be a weird link there

[graceful grail]

True

[stray grove]

Essence can be converted into soul

It can also be transmuted into physical matter

That’s not a strong connection

[graceful grail]

The first sign in hollownest says we higher beings can focus. Or something close to that

[stray grove]

That’s not talking about actual higher beings

PK is buttering up his subjects

Focus your soul is obviously a meta reference to TK’s focus but in universe it’s “work hard get rich”

[foggy fractal]

🤑

[stray grove]

“Focus your soul and you will achieve feats of which others can only dream”

He’s not telling his citizens to literally focus soul or saying they’re literally higher beings

[graceful grail]

Really, I thought those signs only lit up for higher beings

Because it said higher beings, these words are for you alone

but I guess if he was calling all the citizens higher beings… I think that’s kind of weird though

[stray grove]

They’re welcoming people to Hallownest so no. Also TK and Ellina can read them and neither are higher beings

[graceful grail]

TK would count as one i think

[stray grove]

I also don’t think it makes sense to assume there was a mass exodus of higher beings coming to Hallownest

[stray grove]

It’s not

TK does become a higher being but it doesn’t start as one

After it obtains Void Heart it’s said to have “evolved beyond that Wyrm”

And given it also kills Rad and unifies the Void (a strength before unseen) it makes sense to call it one at that point

At base not really, it doesn’t have the feats to put it “above all others”

[graceful grail]

I would rather think there was a max Exodus of higher beings going everywhere in the world. otherwise, where did they all come from?

[stray grove]

There aren’t that many of them

[graceful grail]

We’ve only been to two kingdoms mind you

[stray grove]

Where they originated isn’t important

[graceful grail]

Might be soon

[stray grove]

No there aren’t that many of them, Hallownest was an outlier because it had four

Godseekers call it a land of gods

[floral venture]

The lore tablets speaking of literal higher being at the lore of Hallownest seems unlikely to me, though something like the lore tablet outside of the door to the Abyss could be. It's tricky imo

[stray grove]

In Pharloom only one monarch’s claws ever grasped the kingdom

Meaning there was only ever one

[graceful grail]

Most kingdoms probably have one. There might be a higher being in charge of every kingdom.

[stray grove]

It’s not that complicated higher beings doesn’t even refer to the same thing in universe

[limpid summit]

Sometimes it does

[stray grove]

There’s no way that can possibly refer to higher beings because again Ellina and TK read it and it’s absurd for PK to have been expecting a bunch of HBs to walk into Hallownest

[limpid summit]

But it’s like how we can use god in different contexts irk

[floral venture]

The lore tablet I mentioned would mean nothing to the common bug, though

[stray grove]

The abyss one isn’t important

We’re talking about the KP tablet

[graceful grail]

Have you considered that PK is the HB that went into hollownesst??

From the radiance perspective, PK was literally a parasite.

[stray grove]

That’s entirely besides the point

PK wrote the tablet

He also founded Hallownest

[graceful grail]

He founded his own kingdom, but there are plenty of other kingdoms in hallownest that suffered because of this.

[stray grove]

idk why you’d assume they all share a common origin

[floral venture]

Yeah, it makes sense that one would refer to bugs in general, but the same starting lines are used for the other lore tablets as well

[graceful grail]

It would be more unlikely for it to be otherwise.

[stray grove]

What?

Why would higher beings, an incredibly varied group of entities with very little in common with one another all have a shared origin

[stray grove]

That’s just to indicate they’re the same type of tablet

The higher being tablets have a few quirks other tablets don’t

[graceful grail]

Silk and soul are as connected as it gets

[stray grove]

both PK and GMS are pale beings yes

But beyond the connection to soul nothing indicates a meaningful relationship

Other beings like snail shamans also have a connection to soul

[floral venture]

👍

[stray grove]

Soul is also literally just life energy

Every living being has it

[floral venture]

I understand why the KP tablets would be glazing common bugs but some of the other ones don't need to, that's my only qualm

Seeing as the average bug probably wouldn't see them

[stray grove]

I mean the abyss one is basically a warning

It’s telling anyone who comes across it accidentally to fuck off

[floral venture]

True

[stray grove]

“We shall enter that place no longer” 🥶

[foggy fractal]

tuff !

[floral venture]

Yep that makes sense to me now

[stray grove]

The door is also locked so like

It’s the equivalent to barrier tape

[floral venture]

I also just remembered the tablet in the black egg, which doesn't start with that line, which makes sense because nobody is meant to be in there lol

[muted lantern]

So can the silk sisters use silk skills? Phantom has cross stitch and lace has that circle attack and the other one where she leaves exploding trails behind her when she leaps in her second fight. The first two seem like they could be chalked up to extreme speed but the lace jump with exploding trails seems explicitly magical.

[olive fjord]

i assume so

[half zenith]

I saw a theory about dlc stuff that we’re getting a Frankenstein’s monster homage and that zylotol’s master was attempting to use lifeblood for ill advised necromancy… if that’s true thatd be awesome

[marble oasis]

I thought so too but Phantom’s cross stitch doesn’t use Silk like Hornet’s and Lace’s bubbles are just slashes

[muted lantern]

the circle attack maybe, but the trails she leaves behind i don't think so. but id have to look again at the lace 2 fight

also how do we know phantoms cross stitch doesnt use silk?

[silk dirge]

i mean maybe

but the problem is

thats literally them using themselves

[marble oasis]

I checked, I thought they were explosions but they’re just slashes like the big circle attack

[marble oasis]

different vfx to hornet’s

[silk dirge]

phantom it makes sense

shes going all out in a final battle

lace idk

[marble oasis]

Hornet’s has like a thread effect whereas Phantom’s is just movement

[muted lantern]

Phantom is actively trying to kill themself, and its not like lace is much better off in the suicidal ideation department

[silk dirge]

i wonder what would happen if hornet bound lace or phantom

i mean she already does bind a silk being that being gms

so maybe it wouldnt really change anything

other than what regular binding does

[muted lantern]

do you mean the little twirly line that pops up for a frame after the parry? does phantoms not have that?

wrong reply

[muted lantern]

replying to this

[muted lantern]

Drastically worsened mommy issues probably

[marble oasis]

Yes, and during the actual counterattack

[muted lantern]

I guess hornet didn't even absorb the skill from them, she learned it mid fight to copy them, so the lack of silk use would make sense

[marble oasis]

yeah all other silk skills are “bound” but cs is “learned”

[muted lantern]

Also did we ever get a consensus on who the speaker is in the exhaust organ thread memory? from what i recall the composition of the scene implies it's lace but i've seen people argue otherwise.

[craggy smelt]

I say Lace

the pod is like Eva's, gives me the impression that Phantom was retreating into it periodically to sustain herself as part of her degradation

her recuperating while Lace waits outside seems to be what's most obviously going down

so it's Lace's pondering while Phantom recovers

[muted lantern]

Thats generally how i read the scene, especially with lace posing how she is, like shes the one lamenting.

[edgy nebula]

i dont really see phantom talking to lace there, she's clearly incapacitated, it only makes sense for lace to be talking

this channel is so dead

[muted lantern]

I mean most of the broad strokes of the lore have already been discussed, it's just the minor details now

[sinful nimbus]

Real answer Silksong fell off 🥱

So sad

[limpid summit]

Eh

#hk-lore from 2020-2023 was still mostly kicking

Problem is we just don’t get enough characters

There were still revelations sure but a lot of it was regulars dealing with kooky characters

And discussions of purity

I think we’ve got a ways to go

[sinful nimbus]

UNBAN TRELLIS ‼️

Also bring back silksongfan. I didn't like them but they made the channel a lot more interesting

Not banned just inactive

Powdered is gone too

[edgy nebula]

what even happened to powdered

banned? demoted? quit?

[stray grove]

Who the hell are you

[sinful nimbus]

Just left

[edgy nebula]

well they seem to still be in the server

but that's a bummer

[sinful nimbus]

They aren't in the server pretty sure

[edgy nebula]

hum

[stray grove]

There was nothing to say bro

lore regulars making shit up so they have literally anything to talk about half a decade after the game’s release

[sinful nimbus]

TRUE

Do you remember the guy who kept making up wacky PK and WL powers

[ancient sinew]

Honestly you’re the reason I don’t talk here anymore

[edgy nebula]

damn

[sinful nimbus]

Wow

[ancient sinew]

I still lurk sometimes but why should I bother talking if I’m just gonna get insulted for it

[sinful nimbus]

Victim complex goes crazy

[ancient sinew]

It’s the worst feeling in the world to want to share an interesting idea with people and immediately get shut down for it

It makes you feel small and stupid and contributes to a toxic environment

So that’s why I left

[sinful nimbus]

Oh like you shut down skynx nosk?

[ancient sinew]

That you felt the need to include your personal feelings about me in the above message says enough

I’m not entertaining this. Bye.

[sinful nimbus]

I was saying I enjoyed your company

Ugh

[edgy nebula]

the drama in sk-lore gets real

[stray grove]

It’s true that the more people with new ideas we turn away the more unwelcoming and toxic this channel becomes

[foggy fractal]

aye how about my company

[sinful nimbus]

always 🗣️

[foggy fractal]

💯

[stray grove]

Anyway this leads nicely to what I was about to say

The Nightmare Heart, like many HBs, has several titles

The scarlet heart, the terror of sleep, the heart of Grimm

I’d like to focus on the last one

Grimm refers to the Heart as belonging to him, an extension of himself, which makes sense given the troupe is both clan and master

But the heart is also both realm and ruler

So what I’m getting at is what if the Heart calls itself Grimm

The reason Grimm introduces himself as that is because that’s the name he chose for himself

Nightmare Heart is just a title

[sinful nimbus]

This isn't a new idea

[stray grove]

He calls the heart the heart of Grimm because in his understanding Grimm encompasses more than just the heart itself

[edgy nebula]

isnt this just a topic for #hk-lore

[stray grove]

It also includes the entire nightmare realm and the troupe

[sinful nimbus]

I enjoy this interpretation yes

[sinful nimbus]

Grimm has a reaper crest

[stray grove]

Others like WL only care about the heart because it’s the literal heart of the troupe (and the nightmare realm)

[sinful nimbus]

That's probably his last name

Grimm Reaper hahahahahaha get it

[stray grove]

But Grimm’s understanding of himself transcends that

[edgy nebula]

well yeah we know grimm is a farmer in his free time

[stray grove]

I mean yeah

Crests are just RPG classes

[edgy nebula]

but that doesnt relate to nmh

[stray grove]

Grimm is a reaper, he reaps kingdoms

And he has the moveset

TK is a wanderer

[stray grove]

Oh really? I’ve never seen it before haha 🤣

[edgy nebula]

reaper crest is called that because it uses the harvesting definition of reaper, as a callback to how greymoor was a farmland, that’s also why it sweeps like a scythe

[stray grove]

Yes the reapers in SS harvest silk but this could be extended to Grimm who harvests dead kingdoms

It’s not like harvesting silk is farming in the traditional sense either

The Grim Reaper also uses that imagery, but it reaps men instead of grain

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah as far as I can tell user "AppleEgg" invented the theory

.

[stray grove]

WHAT

they didn’t elaborate

[turbid grove]

what if silksong is actually about hornet and not crickets

[limpid summit]

You tell em

[foggy fractal]

har har har I get it !

[frozen hornet]

Thoughts?

[sinful nimbus]

Cool idea

Doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of evidence for it but it fits with what we see

[stone herald]

it fits with what we see, but i dont think its likely that TC really took the cosmology of HK into much account

and if they didnt then its a theory with no real predictive power

[sinful nimbus]

I mean you have to assume planets have a core of void or something yeah

I prefer the idea that its just infinite caves all the way through although that's equally baseless

[frozen hornet]

Then why does Grimm have our galactical supercluster in his tent 😭

[craggy smelt]

and yet, totally based

[sinful nimbus]

true...

[craggy smelt]

also this weird thing is happening to me, where you never hear a term your whole life, then you start hearing about it all the time

in this case it's 'eyeball planet'

which was not what I thought it was at first, let me tell you

while they're cool enough in their own right, the image of living on a planet-sized giant eyeball will forever remain a favorite in the playground of my mind

but I'm against any view of holloworld being some boring round ball planet like our dumb world...

[foggy fractal]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Unnamed_NPCs_(Hollow_Knight) apparently we have an unnamed npcs page for hk

is there enough unnamed npcs in silksong to warrant a page I wonder

[craggy smelt]

Unnamed Silksong NPCs all get their own pages

like 'Humble Pilgrim'
https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Humble_Pilgrim

[foggy fractal]

I would say those are named

the game shows us those titles

[craggy smelt]

what about
https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Unnamed_Skarr

[foggy fractal]

I would count that

[craggy smelt]

are there that many truly unnamed NPCs? put me on the spot and I can't recall any

do the beaslings count?

[foggy fractal]

nah

[craggy smelt]

oh, they also have their own page anyway

[foggy fractal]

Beastlings is an actual name the game calls them

[craggy smelt]

but what are their individual names?!

[foggy fractal]

no idea lmao

[foggy fractal]

[sinful nimbus]

He has a name

[craggy smelt]

'henrick' apparently

[sinful nimbus]

Exactly

[craggy smelt]

I hope they're sapient, like grimmsteeds

[limpid summit]

How many animals are just dudes who choose to act like that

[foggy fractal]

no idea

[limpid summit]

Like can Zaza actually talk

[sinful nimbus]

Judging by the fleas...

[limpid summit]

True

[craggy smelt]

I was disappointed that Zaza didn't just full-on talk like a regular person, I thought he would with the line about him being the brains of the duo

[sinful nimbus]

Zaza got done dirty

So did Garmond

[lapis creek]

didnt that line also say he didnt talk

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think TC knew what to do with them

[craggy smelt]

just don't respond to Zaza's quest
finished the game, end the haunting, Garmond lives
just like Myla and the Infection

[lapis creek]

zaza needed to be a master strategist

[foggy fractal]

trueeeeeeeee

[sinful nimbus]

You know better than that...

[limpid summit]

I would have actually been pissed off if Zaza started speaking in full sentences after Lost Garmond

Like bro YOU save him

[foggy fractal]

epic fail

[craggy smelt]

I don't know shit

[limpid summit]

Do you guys think Zaza will get a continued story in DLC

[lapis creek]

yes

[sinful nimbus]

No

[lapis creek]

he will drown himself

[craggy smelt]

if you go back later, is Zaza just forever sitting next to Garmond's body?

[sinful nimbus]

No fleshing out the characters. Not ever.

[limpid summit]

Actually yeah what happens to both of them

[foggy fractal]

yes

[craggy smelt]

he either need to die there or get adopted by some new friendly NPCs and move on

[foggy fractal]

Zaza sitting next to dead Garmond is the final state for him

[bleak ridge]

Or adopted by us into our bell homes, trust

[craggy smelt]

sure, Lace can look after him and learn to love

[limpid summit]

Zaza... let us just rest a little... and then we’ll be away...

[sinful nimbus]

Like when stitch speaks english

[limpid summit]

So wait

You can genuinely like

Just not do anything else in act 3 meet him 3 times and kill him and he just sits there until you beat LL

Like if you wanted to torture yourself you could even do it before Bell Eater

How does he stay alive that long

[bleak ridge]

Because he's garmond

[limpid summit]

Garmond made up his backstory and pretended to die so we would feel bad

[craggy smelt]

you mean his death state isn't triggered if you don't talk to him?

I'd say that's just oversight

[limpid summit]

You can either fight LG by meeting him a few times or everbloom right

Like you can meet him 3 times before even talking to the snail shamans

[bleak ridge]

You needa complete void masses quest iirc or Everbloom

[coarse forge]

Question whats stronger a pale being or a higher being

[craggy smelt]

tricky to answer, since some pale beings are also higher beings

but pale beings, also called the 'higher caste', generally seem to top the world's power hierarchies

the Pale King of Hallownest seemed more powerful than, say, Unn, who was a higher being but not a pale being

[coarse forge]

Ok so is grand mother silk a pale being or a higher being?

[craggy smelt]

both

[coarse forge]

Ok so is pale stag a higher being or a pale being?

Pale being right

[craggy smelt]

not sure they're actually either one?
They are described as a 'stag touched pale', so they might just be an entity granted power by a pale being - I don't know
but they don't seem to be a higher being

Hornet would be an example of a pale being who isn't a higher being, though she has the potential to become one

[coarse forge]

Got it so how many higher beings do we see in silk song

Or pale beings

Cuz is nuu a higher being

[craggy smelt]

I think Silk is the only full-on higher being

unless you count what Hornet turns into in some endings

(Weaver Queen, Cursed, etc.)

[coarse forge]

Got it

Another question is nuu a higher being?

[craggy smelt]

as far as pale beings, there's Silk and Hornet
many people consider Lace one, since she's made from Silk's power

I definitely don't think Nuu is a higher being

they're just some weird little creature

[coarse forge]

Think about it they seem awfully similar to unn and there Giant appetite is like a baby higher being

[craggy smelt]

they're a little slug or snail creature, but there are slugs that aren't gods like Unn (Salubra from the first game is also a slug)

some creatures are very odd, but not necessarily higher beings

greyroot, bardoon, mask maker, etc.

they are said to be young though, so who knows what they might mature into...

[coarse forge]

Fair another question how do the old hearts have more hp then gms?

[craggy smelt]

gameplay

[coarse forge]

Is it game play reasons

[craggy smelt]

you could maybe make a case for GMS not being at full strength because she had to wake up early to fight Hornet

[coarse forge]

Got it

[coarse forge]

Fair but she is still a higher being

[craggy smelt]

yea

[fierce anchor]

But is Zote a higher being?

[dense ridge]

He would be if not for the mysterious force keeping him grounded all the time

[hushed viper]

Ye, i mean its kinda weird why would a weaver be named Hornet if she has nothing related to bees

[craggy smelt]

one of the rare lower beings

[stark ocean]

🔥

[stray fog]

Hes THE lowest being

[edgy nebula]

karak lore

Karak was a thriving landscape, fresh water flowed from the river at the top of their Coral Tower and their prophesied king ruled over his people, with his strength he was able to conquer around half of Pharloom, until Grand Mother Silk came.

With Grand Mother Silk's power, she elevated Pharlids into Weavers, and gaslighting them into being utterly devoted to her. With this new revelation, Crust King Khann likely felt either fear for his kingdom and rule, or true fear for the people of Pharloom. He sought to bring down Grand Mother Silk.

It is likely Grand Mother Silk knew this, as we see her "silken sight" mentioned a few times throughout the game. After this some time likely passed, with Crust King Khann becoming aware the other Successors wouldn't try to directly attack Grand Mother Silk with him.

Soon, however, she sent her kin to attack. We aren't sure what exactly happened, but it is likely the Weavers scoured Mount Fay and froze Karaks water source, in time drying the kingdom, leaving it to be forgotten by the rest of Pharloom, despite the rich history surrounding it.

i originally wrote this for a huge copypasta about loving crust king khann but its lowkey pretty fire so im posting it here

[stray fog]

You really are the #1 karak discusser

[edgy nebula]

i work hard to be worthy of my title

[dreamy onyx]

do we ever see the interior of the cogwork core?

the journal entry for the cogwork clappers mention them being made to ring the bells and cymbals in the depths of the cogwork core

[edgy nebula]

we see giant psalm cylinders in the background and in the architect's melody room, it can be presumed there are other instruments aswell

[dreamy onyx]

i think its an interesting part of the worldbuilding

this area that we can't go to

I think its in 3D, so like on the planes we cant go to because the game is 2d lol

[orchid pine]

What are we talking about?

[tired rampart]

lore

[craggy smelt]

we finished, though

all the lore is done

[viscid ridge]

I think the bells are somewhere we can't access, but they are there

[ionic basalt]

Smt like the bells for cogwork heart?

[cloud zodiac]

Pretty interesting, thanks for you answer but this make more question...

But I am curious what was the resson the acting silk mommy like this, I mean you said Phantom placed maggot water, but why ? Seems so low chance because Mommy was not satisfied with the outcome what became Phantom due can't produce (need silk to sustain herself).

Also i though she is make the mist with her pipe organ when she playing on it.

So you say Phantom and lace became born after the weavers are left or died ? (there is some black spot on my mind at that time.)
Or they left because of these two would be the "replacement" ?

There is a part that i not really understand, So Mommy make the Weawers from that little spider creatures with her own silk. (can be see a short scene after you dance with First shinner.

Than when they are was made, Mommy told them about they are divine being... So why the weavers wanted to put Mommy in a deep sleep.

After this was the main goal the citadel or not ? I mean about they made different roles of their hierarchy Like - Conductors, Keepres, Architects, - Choir - Under-workers - pilgrims /pilgrimages.

The choir needed to learn a song that they keep mommy in slomber but they not know what they doing only the Conductors knew about Mommy right ?

After when Cogwork are being build the chior not need to learn the song, because do the job...

So First Shinner is being punished because they knew the truth the weavers are not really divine, but how she know that, She was the first who is being made ?

Also Widow is Loyal to mommy, (also get punished) but she is still in life as a last weavers who stayed in Pharlom.
So she actually had time to interact with Lace and Phantom.

That i don't get what was the main problem between the Mommy and Weavers ?

Also i have in time problem like how the ruler-sip is old i mean Widow is still alive while Conductors are being passing.

Also there is different wavenest like Wavenest Atla which are made by named Weavers right ? Are the Citadel was build at that time, or it being build later.
Why the weavers not satisfied with Eva ?

If i know porperly before Mommy was other " Ruler in Pharlom (or outside of Pharlom) like Crust King, Skarrsinger Carmelita, Green Prince, Nyleth...

Probably there is might time dalay between this ruler, like Carmelita is still alive in present, Crust king and Nyleth are not.

I also know the citadels was already builded in the time of Green Prince due the pactum they made about Verdania and the Cogwork Dancers (clover Dancers)

If there would be a "Lorebook" with illustration about the whole stuff or early sketch from the dev, i would definitely buy it. ( which actually would be useful a script of storyboard for an animated series ir movie. For some reasson i really interested the epilogue of Pharloom, More like the happenings, how the putrified duckts and Bilewater be toxic, Where the whater goes from sand of Karak,

Why Verdania is lost, What actually they wanted in Memorium

How Bellheart was maded to reach evry place in pharlom
||(early game Bellhart has a much bigger) ||

[terse warren]

Ok so

Weavenests were built before the Citadel, as they were trying to find ways to replace GMS, and they did that in the Weavenests because they were far away, and so she couldn't see them there.

They weren't satisfied with Eva because she was extremely fragile, and had to live her life in a tube.

The other Rulers of Pharloom aren't the ones we fight (except Nyleth), the ones we fight are their descendants. Their Kingdoms actually lasted until the Choir bugs took over the Citadel most likely, at which point the pollution starting to hurt them.

[terse warren]

Bilewater and Ducts are toxic because Phantom is using the Organ to shove the waste from the Citadel into those areas, there's no water in Sands of Karak due to pollution, Verdania is also lost due to pollution, Bellhart doesn't reach every place in Pharloom, it's just a small city made by people who gave up on the pilgrimage

[dreamy onyx]

There's no indication of when the other Kingdoms fell

It could've been before the Weavers left the Citadel, it could've been after

Also the Weavenest's have no indication that they were built before the Citadel, they were likely built while simultaneously

Or at least with an overlapping timeframe

[terse warren]

They were built far away specifically so GMS wouldn't see them though? What's the point of building them far if she asleep lol

[terse warren]

Weavers left before the Citadel was made, the ones that made the Citadel stayed and died

[dreamy onyx]

Well they also have tablets about fleeing Pharloom and they did that after they built the Citadel

[cloud zodiac]

Also strange when you just reach the Cardle you just yelling to Mommy, and she is awoken.

But how not the cogwork's song is keep her asleep, is it still functional.

[dreamy onyx]

I'm inclined to believe they were trying to contest GMS rather than escape her while she was awake

She still has considerable influence when she's asleep

[terse warren]

We know 100% that Nyleth and GP were during the Choir rule, and the other two likely were as well due to age and due to the museum and also due to the message of the game being about pollution

[terse warren]

They did not

[terse warren]

It's not functional, because everyone is Haunted and can't play

[terse warren]

They weren't trying to "contest" her they were trying to imprison her that's made pretty clear in Weavenest Atla

[dreamy onyx]

They wanted to usurp her, no?

When they realised her sleep wouldn't be eternal they were looking to contest her

That's the whole reason of Eva

[terse warren]

They always thought her sleep was gonna be eternal

As we can read in the harp runes

[dreamy onyx]

Okay then why did they flee

[terse warren]

they fled before they put her asleep I've said this twice already

[dreamy onyx]

No? They put her to sleep and then they fled

If she wasn't asleep she would've hunted them down, like she does in the current day

[terse warren]

The ones that made the Citadel clearly stayed there and died

[dreamy onyx]

The minute she became the source of the Haunting she went after the remaining Weavers, even in her sleepened state

[terse warren]

Doesn't mean they didn't flee?

[terse warren]

There's no evidence she did so immediately?

Also it's most likely that she went after the Weavers because her Silk supply was dried by the constant exploitation of the Citadel, and she wanted to absorb them to get more Silk for Lace

No reason to hunt them before that

[dreamy onyx]

They did flee, but they built the Citadel first. They stuck around long enough to start the Choir set up to lull her to sleep

Then when the Conductors took over, they made the Core so they didn't need Pilgrims to sing

[terse warren]

Why would they flee though

[dreamy onyx]

Because the moment she woke up she'd be pissed

Her own children basically imprisoned her

[terse warren]

But they explicitly thought her sleep was gonna be eternal

!wiki Rune Harp

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Rune_Harp

Hollow Knight Wiki

Rune Harp

Rune Harps are tradable items in Hollow Knight: Silksong. Strung with silk runes inscribed by the Weavers, they can be deciphered after selling to Relic Seeker Scrounge.

Effects

Can be sold to Relic Seeker Scrounge for  210

Type

Tradable

Source

Weavenest Atla
Far Fields
High Halls

Max held

3

[dire lynx]

Last words of the Weavers.

"Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence.

We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."

[terse warren]

NEVER TO CEASE

NEVER TO SILENCE

[terse warren]

Tyvm

We shall die, not we shall flee

[dreamy onyx]

They died outside of Pharloom

[dire lynx]

we shall wait

[dreamy onyx]

Why do you think the only Weavers captured are of x-part?

Most of, if not all the Weavers are dead

[terse warren]

No??

You still haven't replied to the quote btw

Why would they flee if they thought the music would last Eternal?

[dire lynx]

because the cindril weavers fled before grand mother silk was lulled to sleap

[terse warren]

The Choir ruled for generations after the Weavers died, I don't think there was even the slightest doubt about the eternity of the song

[dreamy onyx]

I don't think it's ever explicitly stated that the Weavers fled separately

[dire lynx]

only one group of weavers have been hinted to have fled

[dreamy onyx]

I don't know, why would they flee?

[terse warren]

Because they didn't like GMS's rule

Which I'm pretty sure is actually stated explicitly in Cindril?

!wiki Weavenest

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Weavenest

Hollow Knight Wiki

Weavenest

Did you mean:
• Weavenest Absolom - A sub-area of the Abyss
• Weavenest Atla - An area connected to Moss Grotto
• Weavenest Cindril - A sub-area of Far Fields
• Weavenest Karn - A sub-area of Wormways
• Weavenest Murglin - A sub-area of Bilewater

[dire lynx]

Plea of a Weaver from the furthest edge of Pharloom.

"Flee, sisters. Flee until your strength exhausts, so far you may escape at last her silken sight.

To start anew, to sustain, free of web and service eternal."

[dreamy onyx]

The wiki states that they fled because they didn't like her rule, but that was after she was lulled to sleep

They realised she'd always have the true power over Pharloom, and neither the Weavers or the Conductors' false claim could contest it

[terse warren]

I was thinking of another quote

[terse warren]

Thx again

[terse warren]

No?

[terse warren]

????

They literally believed themselves to be gods???

[dreamy onyx]

!wiki Weavers

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Weavers

Hollow Knight Wiki

Weavers

The Weavers, also known as the first children, are an all-female tribe of sapient arachnids native to Pharloom. They played an influential role in that kingdom and in other lands such as the kingdom of Hallownest.

[terse warren]

"So far you may escape her silken sight.

Free of web and service eternal."

1. If she's asleep, and they think she's never waking up, no reason for them to worry about her sight.

2. If she's asleep, they're not serving her, they're the ones ruling.

[dreamy onyx]

Is it not the state of the Citadel, rather than whatever system was devised before?

[terse warren]

Sorry I don't think I understand what your sentence is trying to say?

[dreamy onyx]

The web they're escaping from is the Citadel, not the system in place before it

[terse warren]

The wiki isn't a source btw

[terse warren]

Idk dawg

They had SLAVES

[dire lynx]

service eternal is obviously referring to having to play the harps for gms forever

[terse warren]

I don't think they were the ones in servitude

[dire lynx]

like we see in widow cutscene

[terse warren]

I'm p sure the harp cutscenes is them trying to put her to sleep tho

[dreamy onyx]

Okay but Ballador states

"Now, in our Citadel's silence, we share their truth. Only one monarch's claws ever clutched this kingdom, though we raised our voices to cry otherwise."

[fleet lichen]

I'm still wondering why Hornet was brought to Pharloom it's literally the main question

[dire lynx]

the dialogue that is in that cutscene:

Our mother... true...
Our light divine...
Wake... Wake... Wake...
Glory to you...
Devotion to you...
Spin... Bind... Punish...
Of the first... the last...
We hear you!

[terse warren]

Mhhhh alr mb then

[dreamy onyx]

In the Strung to Serve cutscene, it seems GMS binds Hornet to herself

[dire lynx]

wait, thats the cradle dialogue

[dreamy onyx]

I'm assuming it's a way of bringing more power to herself

[terse warren]

Damn dawg

It's almost as if

And hear me out

Ballador is actually alive during the Haunting?

Rather than dying many many generations before it like the Weavers did?

Im pretty sure that when Romolus founded Rome, he didn't foresee the fall of the Senate at the hands of Julius Caesar

[dire lynx]

ballador says it himself, only thanks to the haunting is it now clear that gms was the only true ruler

[terse warren]

She wants more Silk to keep Lace alive

[fleet lichen]

And how did Hornet get her Silk powers?

Did she just always have them

[terse warren]

From her mom which was retconned into being a Weaver

[dreamy onyx]

Herrah's a Weaver, and Weavers can spin silk from soul in their shell

[fleet lichen]

Ohhh

I see

Okay thanks

[dreamy onyx]

The timeline is muddy though.

If Weaver's left before GMS was asleep, why does nobody else even mention GMS. Surely they'd know of her, or there'd at least be some mention.

[dire lynx]

do you mean in HK?

[dreamy onyx]

Silksong

How many characters mention GMS? I know the Shamans do

And obviously Lace does

But you'd think if she was awake when the Weavers fled, somebody else would've known.

[dire lynx]

not all the weavers fled, only the ones in cindril did

the atla weavers stayed and eventually died of old age

[terse warren]

Why would they?

[dreamy onyx]

because there's a giant fucking goddess above your land lmao

Wouldn't she want to be worshipped directly

[terse warren]

How does the Weavers fleeing from Pharloom imply people in Pharloom knowing about GMS??

[dreamy onyx]

because if they fled when GMS was still awake, wouldn't somebody else know about her?

[terse warren]

You basically just answered "why not"

[dreamy onyx]

Alright let me try something else

Can you tell me what you think the timeline is from the birth of the Weavers to the Haunting?

[terse warren]

Also the Pilgrims who completed the Pilgrimage were allowed into the Cradle and assumedly saw GMS, I don't know why you're making her existence out to be a secret?

[dreamy onyx]

They could've been, but they wouldn't make it. Hornet mentions as such in her dialogue with the Twelfth Architect.

"Have you climbed our c-c-core, and woken the voices of my l-l-line?
Hornet: I have, maker. Clearly it was a climb never intended for regular bugs, and fair fortune that the skills gifted within your lands allowed my ascent."

[terse warren]

Regular bugs as in your average joe

Hornet is referring to the skill needed to complete the climb

[dire lynx]

i have to agree with sky here, cardinius says that only the head vaultkeeper was ever allowed to hear their song.
the idea of the pilgrims being allowed to go to the cradle was probably just a way to get them more invested in serving the citadel

[terse warren]

I mean, I assume if one was able to reach the head vaultkeeper, that cylinder would be their reward

[dreamy onyx]

Considering Hornet is a Weaver and the Twelfth Architect is an Architect, I assume they meant any Pilgrim

[dire lynx]

"Only our pontiff, lived long and low within our vault, they held the melody, jealously, covetously... A learning for the highest Vaultkeeper, and them alone."

[dreamy onyx]

It says the Head Vaultkeeper was the only one allowed to hear it

Nothing about the Pilgrims

[terse warren]

Weaver birth
Weaver don't like GMS
Weavers make various Weavenests, all with different ways to contrast GMS
Some try to trap her, some try to fight her, some look into the Void, some just run away
The Weavers that remain put her to sleep with the song, but since it's hard they go to the surface and lure bugs from Nameless Town to help them
The bugs become slaves
GMS probably makes Phantom and Lace around this time while she's still not fully asleep
They start building the Citadel to keep her trap and keep the song going
The Weavers die out and pass the torch
GMS starts waking up
Haunting
Events of the game

[terse warren]

Fair point

Even then, I don't see why the Weavers fleeing implies other bugs finding out about GMS

[dire lynx]

the weavers covered up the existance of GMS so they could be worshipped as gods themselves, thats why they locked up first sinner when she started saying the weavers arent divine

[dreamy onyx]

The way I saw it, the Weavers never spoke about competing factions of those who fled or those who stayed. It seems as if they acted as a collective

The ones who stayed remained so as to help the daughter of a distant land, aka a descendant who could have the power to free theme

[terse warren]

shrue

[terse warren]

They don't have to be competing factions

They're just different groups

Not necessarily competing

[dreamy onyx]

There's still no mention of it at all

[terse warren]

The different Weavenests?

[dreamy onyx]

I don't see how that proves anything, I saw them as a collective effort more than individual research

[terse warren]

Maybe yeah but it still doesn't take away from the fact that some of them fled

And there's no reason for it to happen after the Citadel

For reasons already stated

[dreamy onyx]

I simply don't see a reason for it to be before the Citadel

To be fair the timeline is intentionally vague

[terse warren]

Because they didn't like her rule?

And because it makes no sense for it to be after?

[dire lynx]

because its explicitly to escape "service eternal" which was only a thing before the citadel for the weavers

[dreamy onyx]

In my eyes, the cutscene after Widow is them worshipping GMS, then they realise her rule is ass, so they begin to imprison her with song, aka the Citadel and bringing in the Choir, pilgrimage and all that.

Service eternal in their eyes is the song and the knowledge that she's only dormant rather than dead. So they build the Weavenests to research ways to counteract her

When all else fails, they flee. A few stay behind to help any descendant they may have, but they pass their rule off to the Conductors and get the hell out of there

[dire lynx]

the weavenests were built to try and destroy her, eventually leading to the plan of sleep after so many other failed attempts

[terse warren]

Except it's not service at all

They were WORSHIPPED

[dreamy onyx]

Conductors do their shtick, then the Haunting, yada yada

[terse warren]

They had SLAVES

[dire lynx]

the choir were functionally slaves to the weavers who basked in false glory

[terse warren]

I mean the Wardenflies are also just straight up slaves

[dreamy onyx]

Wasn't the Choir the thing that kept her asleep

[terse warren]

The Choir are people

[dire lynx]

the pilgrims let into the citadel are the choir

[cloud zodiac]

I found this short animation might it worth for mention.

||https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNQdOxmJtw4|| I think its cool.

[terse warren]

This is lore channel, not discussion channel

[cloud zodiac]

It is releated to Lore,about skarmelita.

Also probably explain the time delay that we talked earlier.

[craggy smelt]

hee, skarmelita

[dreamy onyx]

I'm just not convinced of the timeline because there's no mention of the Weavers leaving in groups

[craggy smelt]

Widow refers to Hornet as the spawn of 'those who dared to flee', suggesting there are others who did not dare

[dreamy onyx]

I mean she's the last one

[craggy smelt]

there's also the rune of routes in Cindrill, showing multiple paths away from Pharloom

[dire lynx]

because the others died of old age waiting in the citadel

We shall die, and wait, and pray, that one may come of silken strength enough to weave us free."

[terse warren]

Well it's a fan animation so not really

[dreamy onyx]

I think it's vague enough for any interpretation

This is my interpretation, you can have yours

[craggy smelt]

this one confuses me, because of the first bit talks about the Citadel and how it was intended to be maintained forever by lesser bugs
but the last bit implies that the Weavers still saw themselves as not being truly free

maybe they figured they'd never really be safe as long as GMS was alive?

[cloud zodiac]

Probably not etalon, but interesting the animation maker also connect the earlier ruler, like in my thoughts. Of course not mean anything.

[terse warren]

Because they're assholes and they think "boohoo my life is so hard ignore all of my slaves doing all the work for me and worshipping me boohoo"

[dire lynx]

the only cool weavers were herra and widow, change my mind

maybe first sinner

[craggy smelt]

it's a really cool fight

[terse warren]

FS had anger issues tbh

[dire lynx]

true, but she did stand up to the bullshit of the other weavers

[terse warren]

I mean she did seek like she had no issue being worshipped until she found out that she wasn't holy

So

Ehhh

[dire lynx]

thats why fs is a maybe and the other two are certain

[terse warren]

Tbh we know next to nothing about Widow so who knows