sk-lore

[stray grove]

You just made that up

Mask based control isn’t a thing

[spark valve]

ngl that's kinda disappointing it being the top of a lighthouse you ascend would be more fun

[silk dirge]

ellipse shaped sockets arent a rare thing 😭

[stray grove]

If Brumm was mind controlled he wouldn’t be able to uh quit

[whole holly]

The expanse of dream in past was split,

One realm now must stay apart,
Darkest reaches, beating red,
Terror of sleep. The Nightmare's Heart. doesn't sound like nature of benevolent being

[stray grove]

The reason he had to hide from Grimm is because he was plotting to fuck over the entire ritual

Not because NMH had him on a leash

[silk dirge]

i mean i guess you are ascending it

you only enter at the top tho

[stray grove]

Divine also has autonomy

[whole holly]

but still not positivelly affected

[stray grove]

She’s able to remain in Dirtmouth even after the Troupe has left

[fresh badger]

Ok but does it do anything malevolent

[spark valve]

she got exactly what she was trying to achieve

[spark valve]

I just think it would be cool to access it at the bottom and ascend to a beacon (not the wyrm kind) way above the sea is all

[silk dirge]

it looks like you dock at the bottom and climb or something

[stray fog]

I swear I remember such a dialogue 😭

[stray grove]

The Heart’s ritual might actually be a net positive

Letting nightmares linger around dead kingdoms presumably isn’t a good thing and it does a good cleanup job

[silk dirge]

anyways im excited to see what that new crest will be

[stray grove]

It’s also not hurting anyone so who cares

[silk dirge]

i am almost certain its a crest

[whole holly]

Burn the father, feed the child.

[fresh badger]

Yeah it has the chapel setup

[fresh badger]

Those are both just the NMH's creation, and Grimm doesnt like show any signs of not wanting it

[stray grove]

… the father is its vessel, which it creates itself
The child is also its vessel, which it also creates itself
And both the father and the child are extensions of its own consciousness this doesn’t hurt anyone lmao

[spark valve]

hopefully it's not yet another act 3 crest you can't use for almost anything

[whole holly]

not without negative side effects that are destructive, also cognitive dissonance is not beneficial for you

[fresh badger]

Hell you could theorize each grimm incarnation lives on within the next grimm bc of the one bat transformation

[stray grove]

Skull

[stray grove]

They live on because they are all the heart

[silk dirge]

im mainly excited also to see more outside of kingdom worldbuilding

[stray grove]

We are talking about the same person here

[spark valve]

it's not cognitive dissonance nor have you actually provided any negative side effects you're just making shit up

[fresh badger]

I mena they hold the heart but different experiences shape different beings

Nature vs nurture

[silk dirge]

like any exploration of how the wider world of hk looks like is welcome to me

[stray grove]

All of their experiences are the heart’s experiences

[whole holly]

i said destructive, and grimm ritual is destructive, plus they aren't benevolent

[stray grove]

Grimm and the Heart are the same person

[spark valve]

grimm ritual isn't destructive

[fresh badger]

Who does it destroy

[stray grove]

Grimmchild is also the same person

[stray fog]

It isn't exactly about mind control ig

[stray grove]

All of their experiences are shared

Grimm doesn’t even treat the heart like a distinct entity

[fresh badger]

What about pre-absorbing the heart? The child is an individual

[stray grove]

No it’s still the heart

The Grimmkin are also the heart

[fresh badger]

The grimmkin are different from the child

Theyre bum puppets

[stray grove]

The child is created by the heart as an extension of itself though

It’s not a separate existence

[fresh badger]

The child has no connection to the heart

Thats the whole point of the ritual

Implanting the heart into the child

[stray grove]

The point of the ritual is to feed and replace the active vessel yes

[whole holly]

void seeping out of eyes is negative side effect and Godhome having Void seeping everywhere especially void tenrils which are inherently destructive can be seen in godhom

[stray grove]

That doesn’t mean the child and the heart aren’t connected

They share a consciousness

[whole holly]

Father, he is burned lol

[spark valve]

godhome is fine lol

godseeker mode is after

[stray grove]

It is the father lmao

[fresh badger]

That sounds like internal affairs that dont affect the external world

The troupe and NMH do nothing destructive to the external world

[stray grove]

You are misrepresenting the ritual

Grimm isn’t even harmed

Nobody is

[whole holly]

really, can you provide source

[whole holly]

destruction is not inherent harm, it is destruction

[whole holly]

i didn't specify external world

[stray grove]

But he isn’t destroyed in any meaningful way

His physical body is destroyed and he immediately goes into another one

[fresh badger]

Their internal affairs are irrelevant when talking about how they interact with the world

[stray grove]

This is a bizarre claim

Are you suggesting the ritual is bad because it hurts Grimm

[whole holly]

i didn't specify relevance

[whole holly]

i am not saying it is bad, though

[fresh badger]

Im gonna specify your mom

[stray grove]

dawg

[sinful nimbus]

Banishment frames the ritual as bad because TC hates literally every higher being

[stray grove]

How is it destructive

[spark valve]

most bad faith backpedal ever?

[fresh badger]

Back this convo up

Wasnt the original claim

Nmh and vgfocus evil

[stray grove]

Yes

[whole holly]

Ahh, that creature beside. It would be naive to claim it friend, though you two share a... similarity? It is a distant link, one words would strain to convey.

For it to cling to you now... You've been consumed in the Ritual of that scarlet clan.
In what poor moment they descend upon our ruin. Aid their propagation, if you so choose, but do not renege on the larger task this kingdom implores. - White Lady

[stray grove]

Ok

[whole holly]

it is foolish to claim it friend which wouldn't be case if it was benevolent

[spark valve]

that's not true lmao

[fresh badger]

WL literally says "oh yeah theyre fine you can help them but like please dont waste time you gotta deal with the imminent world ending dream plague"

[sinful nimbus]

What is WL waffling bout bro

Grimm is a friend

[fresh badger]

So all strangers arent benevolent? She's warning TK that the Grimmchild isnt smth that will stick around as a lifelong friend, TK is just being used for the ritual

[blissful harbor]

pretty sure she’s just telling it to be cautious

[sinful nimbus]

Overprotective mother

[stray grove]

It’s funny they still haven’t mentioned the actual dialogue that suggests the troupe might cause harm

[lean temple]

"Best be careful. Assisting them might benefit you, but who knows what suffering it may cause?" -Jiji

[sinful nimbus]

Holy yap

[lean temple]

It goes without saying that literally everyone has a negative reaction to the Troupe

[sinful nimbus]

Not The Knight or Ellina

[lean temple]

Idrc about this whole discussion but you have that to go off of

[sinful nimbus]

Dirtmouth is just a backwater xenophobic town

[stray grove]

“Everyone”

[stray fog]

Idk why the dirtmouth people don't like the troupe

They don't even know what it is

[blissful harbor]

they’re spooky

[lean temple]

Everyone who comments on them, to my knowledge. Feel free to send a Troupe fan dialogue

[stray fog]

Its like me looking at a circus and thinking "man fuck that circus, they're probably evil"

[sinful nimbus]

Elderbug is a moron Iselda is slightly dumb and Jiji is just telling you to be cautious which makes sense

[blissful harbor]

literal nightmare clown creatures pulled up into town one day
i’d be pretty weirded out too

[sinful nimbus]

Ellina

[stray fog]

They don't knew that those are nightmare creatures

[sinful nimbus]

She pulls up and calls Divine a diva and Grimm charismatic

[lean temple]

Can you send what she says

[blissful harbor]

they can tell they have a sinister aura to them

[stray grove]

Elderbug is a xenophobic moron
Jiji and Iselda don’t know what they are
Sly doesn’t care
Neither TK nor Ellina has a negative reaction
Even WL basically goes “yeah they’re chill I just don’t fw them” and she’s the only character who even knows what the fuck they are so like, lmao

[blissful harbor]

the point is conveyed even if they don’t know the specifics

[sinful nimbus]

ughghghg

i actually don't know where my WJ is

[stray fog]

Why did she say that

/j

[sinful nimbus]

Sly would probably respect Divine's grindset

The only guy he doesn't like is Nymm because he's poor verbatim

[stray fog]

Yes queen keep shitting out charms ❤️❤️

[sinful nimbus]

'None of my business of course, but I'd be wary of their deals and promises. Keep your nail half-drawn, if you understand me" that's crazy dawg

[fresh badger]

Naw sly is just slandering the competition

Elderbug himself talks about how Sly being the sole vendor with no competitors is bad for the economy there

Sly has a monopoly and he'll do anything to retain it

[sinful nimbus]

Why did people hone onto Elderbug instead of Sly

Does he have too much aura

[stray fog]

What economy is elderbug yapping about
3 and a half people live in the town 💔

[random harbor]

Elderbug - General - After Sly's shop

Oh, what a turn! Our shopkeep's come home. Just wandered back in. I'd hoped for grand tales of his time below, but he seems to remember almost nothing! Maybe it was all too much for him?
If you're interested in his wares, watch out! He drives a hard bargain, that one.
No competition. That's the problem. It's bad for the market. Not that he's complaining.

@mushspore used /npcs misc name: Elderbug category: General dialogue: After Sly's shop

[stray grove]

TK should’ve gotten a house

[sinful nimbus]

Yes please reward me with more mementos

[craggy smelt]

they can take over Grey Mourner's manor once she's gone

[fresh badger]

Myla momento

[sinful nimbus]

Tablet worn with age, containing the lyrics to a folk song rumored to have originated from the Pale Court

[stray grove]

@limpid summit this is your legacy

[sinful nimbus]

Who is that

The skynx nosk guy?

[fading whale]

Do we think the lifeblood lab is what the lifeblood spire from the early concept maps turned into

Or is the lifeblood spire a different thing that could exist or was completely changed/cut

[sinful nimbus]

We see it in the trailer don't we

[limpid summit]

Hi

What’s up in beautiful SK lore today

[fading whale]

Yeah one broken glass spherical room with Frankenstein reference lightning

[limpid summit]

Bro

Bad legacy

[fading whale]

But it doesn't look like a spire exactly, it could be the top of it though

[limpid summit]

This was the weakest part of the theory

The big meaty part is the second verse

Who cares about verse 1

I guess verse 3 is pretty interesting

[stray fog]

From the acmi photos, it looks like a part of the spire

[fading whale]

I'm very hyped for hornet pirate crest

[sinful nimbus]

Why did they put no meta references in Silksong 🥀

Myla and Zote were so tuff

[stray fog]

I think its going to be the alchemist crest

[fading whale]

Eye patch and peg leg tool

No she's going to be a salty sea dog with a hook

[stray fog]

This corpse is probably zylotol's master

If we bind that corpse, we are binding an alchemist

[limpid summit]

Zango a nepo baby

“Take my useless son with you”

[fading whale]

But who came to take him I wonder

I doubt hornet did all that

She wouldn't care

To carry a body across the entire kingdom, plus how would that happen in game

Courrier quest with movespeed debuff

[stray fog]

Don't give them ideas

[fading whale]

If I had to guess it's probably a relative or the same kind of guy as zylotol and zango

But he is in the spire

[silk dirge]

i wonder if we will see coral gorge assets in the ocean

[stray fog]

TEAM CHERRY PLS GIVE US THE CORAL AREA

[fading whale]

I doubt it

They are done with the coral stuff

It turned into the blasted steps cause they wanted to show the beauty that was robbed by industrialism

and it wouldn't fit if it was in the salt stricken seas

[lethal burrow]

crest of the alchemist.

Binding makes you slowly regenerate health

[fading whale]

That would be lame af

[timber pond]

Its Zylotols master

That he mentioned when talking about "Salt stricken waters"

[timber pond]

Its effectively the same

[silk dirge]

LMAO

not my screenshot

but thats crazy

[timber pond]

Did they put the three dreamers masks over that gate in the latest update

[silk dirge]

i think so

it used to just be monomon

[timber pond]

Why tho

[edgy nebula]

so glad they fixed this, it made the game unplayable

did they fix the fountain too

[timber pond]

Like why is that significant

[silk dirge]

the what

[edgy nebula]

the city of tears fountain

[limpid summit]

The three humble monomons

[silk dirge]

maybe idk

i can check rn

[foggy fractal]

omg

actual asset changes in the first hk

in the big 2025

AFTER silksong's release too ?

🙏 we're so blessed

[wheat locust]

what??

[edgy nebula]

originally the doorway had the design of 3 monomon masks because those were the original dreamer designs

they all looked like lurien but with the mask of monomon

[whole holly]

which ending does silksong take place after, does that mean Hollow Knight is alive?

[silk dirge]

playing hk feels so weird now

wheres my sprint 😭

[foggy fractal]

here's an image for reference

[edgy nebula]

in far fields of course

[whole holly]

it is gone?

[stray grove]

Both Dream No More and Embrace the Void are canonically viable

[edgy nebula]

these are the most random characters bro

[modern geode]

You want #sk-discussion , this is the lore channel

[whole holly]

Dryya didn't make it

[edgy nebula]

i get tk, quirrel, silksong, and the dreamers, but oro and elderbug is insane

[whole holly]

is HK alive after those?

[whole holly]

Shaman? lol

[stray grove]

Dryya was originally supposed to be alive and fought as a boss in QG, th rest of them are important NPCs

[stray grove]

Not in DNM

[whole holly]

Zote is important to that bug boss who needs to be fed

[edgy nebula]

zote is one of the least important npcs in the game

[whole holly]

sed

[stray grove]

This is just not true

[whole holly]

Vengefly disagrees

[whole holly]

Zote is failed Vessel, like Pablo

[stray grove]

He has more dialogue and unique interactions than any other NPC in the game

[silk dirge]

yeah they didnt fix the city fountain lmao

that makes sense

they would have to redraw the entire bodies there

[whole holly]

Grey Prince Zote is Higher Being, like Glorious Pablo

[stray grove]

Oh my god

[edgy nebula]

damn, the game is still unplayable 💔

[stray grove]

This fandom has a whole two jokes

[whole holly]

what is second one? Blue Child Joni?

she is Lifeblood Higher being, she got abyss creature addicted, it is her fault

she is also only one not corrupted/bloated/resurrected by lifeblood, pale king was afraid of her, Joni fought hardest against patriarchy of PK

[limpid summit]

Grow up every media has this

Usopp Bidoof

Let people have a little fun

[whole holly]

Thank you for validating this natural and inevitable occurrence

[edgy nebula]

actually, question, if we assume etv is canon, wouldnt that mean the nightmare heart is technically dead and grimm will never visit a kingdom again

or did we not kill nmh

[whole holly]

I don’t think so? Why do you think that?

[edgy nebula]

dont we kill nmh after fighting nkg

[foggy fractal]

in godhome or in general

[edgy nebula]

in general, cause you need to kill nmh to gain access to nkg

unless im misremembering the events

[foggy fractal]

yeah no

the whole point of fighting nkg is to perpeuate the ritual and "prolong the heart of Grimm"

something like that

[edgy nebula]

ahh okay

my bad

[timber pond]

Thats because most pepole aren't funny

[timber pond]

Its hard for Grimm to apear again because you also have the Brumm outcome where you DONT fight NKG and THATS what stops the perpetuating nightmare heart

Or mabye it just Frees Brumm idk

Has nothing to do with any ending

[sinful nimbus]

The Nightmare Heart can always start again in another dead kingdom, make a new Grimmchild

[foggy fractal]

can it just spawn in a new grimmchild like that

[timber pond]

Well, if you depends on what you believe.

If you belive Grimm himself is apart of the nightmare heart, sure.

But he could also have been an indavidual who wanted to stay immortal through the nightmare heart

[edgy nebula]

what's four more dlcs

[stray grove]

That’s just not what he is though

Grimm calls the heart his (it’s also referred to as the Heart of Grimm) he calls the Grimmchild his child and he calls the Grimmkin his kin/breed

White Lady also says the Troupe are “all and one, clan and master”

[timber pond]

Meaning they become one when they join. Brumm is proof that troupe members are likely prior indaviduals overwritten

[stray grove]

Brumm isn’t a Grimmkin

Bugs like Divine/Brumm are volunteers cloaked in “forms dreamed” and retain their autonomy even after joining the Troupe as evidenced by Brumm’s decision to end the ritual prematurely or Divine’s decision to remain in Dirtmouth even after the Ritual is concluded

The rest of the Troupe are extensions of the Nightmare Heart

Grimm and Grimmchild are literally the exact same thing and both are vessels created by the Heart it’s been doing this shit to perpetuate itself for ages did you play the game

Grimm isn’t some random bug who joined the Troupe lmao

[sinful nimbus]

Brumm calls Grimm a slave too

[stray grove]

Brumm doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about

[sinful nimbus]

"Retain their autonomy" vro 😭 🙏

[stray grove]

Brumm obviously has autonomy yes

[sinful nimbus]

He's a slave

[stray grove]

Not literally

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah he's a metaphorical slave

Like the maggots

[silk dirge]

brumm has about as much autonomy as slabflies probably

[stray grove]

Uhm no

[edgy nebula]

slabflies have less autonomy

[stray grove]

Brumm literally has the option to leave the Troupe during the events of the game

[sinful nimbus]

'If so, let our chains be broken together!' 🤨

[stray grove]

The reason he was being sus about it isn’t because the Heart had him on a leash it’s because he thought he was doing everyone else a great service by ending the ritual prematurely

He’s an idiot

[timber pond]

I did in fact, play the game. Likely before you did 😂 #off-topic message

[sinful nimbus]

Blud he just wants himself and Grimm to be free

He's not framed as incorrect its framed like a great deed

[stray grove]

Oh sorry sorry 🥶

[sinful nimbus]

We scarcely deserve to be in your presence, Old One.

[stray grove]

If you played the game then you should understand that Grimm isn’t in the same position as Brumm or Divine

[timber pond]

Finnaly star bows before me and my Void Parasitic questions on team cherry's development addled mind

[silk dirge]

ok can we stop with the "if you played the game"

its needlessly aggressive

[stray grove]

Grimm was literally created by the Heart with the purpose of serving as its physical form and Grimm himself doesn’t appear to treat the Heart as a distinct entity

As I already mentioned

[stray grove]

Don’t care

“Grimm could be an individual using the heart to attain immortality” is a goofy take

[sinful nimbus]

I wouldn't go around flexing about playing mid if you ask me

[spark valve]

[sinful nimbus]

Have you played the game is a compliment

[foggy fractal]

what if we go around watching peak instead ? Nausicaa ?

[sinful nimbus]

Nausicaa watchparty in Silksong VC 🗣️

[stray grove]

No no this guy played the game before us we should be more respectful

[foggy fractal]

peak cancelling out the mid

[spark valve]

might be against tos 😔

[spark valve]

wasn't hornet being void once widely accepted

[sinful nimbus]

Rule 3: No Studio Ghibli

Luckily Nausicaa isn't Ghibli so we should be in the clear

[timber pond]

Hard to say. If you beleive the Nightmare heart is some primordial force, Sure. But, i argue Chicken or egg. Did grimm Create the heart or did the heart create grimm? It is equally possible That Grimm was a bug That is equivoqal to Dracula in a sense. where he created a force of evil for power and has become possessed by it.

He is supposed to be Dracula themed and like star says, Brumm Is sort of an Igor slave like chracter

[stray grove]

“Did Grimm create the Heart”

[timber pond]

Could have been created from Dreams through Negative thoguhs embodied by flame

[spark valve]

no the heart made him

the grimms are its spawn

easy question

[timber pond]

Sure but if it isnt a Primordial force, that process had to begin somehwere.

[stray grove]

Clearly not

[spark valve]

I mean it's pretty explicitly stated

[timber pond]

And if the heart was created, then started duplicating Grimm then it would have been made by a living bug.

[spark valve]

but what is it I always say about hollow knight fans...

[foggy fractal]

hi

[stray grove]

Genuinely what are you waffling about

Me when I make shit up

Not only is living forever explicitly stated to be the HEART’S goal it’s repeatedly referred to as being the central power behind the Troupe and Grimm himself doesn’t even refer to it as a separate entity from himself

[timber pond]

Do you believe the nightmare heart is a primoridal force from the universe itself or Created by manifestation from other living things

[stray grove]

It doesn’t matter

NMH’s origins are unknown and irrelevant

[spark valve]

I mean at minimum its current form is the product of the dream split

maybe it itself

[timber pond]

It does In determining if its process was of creation or of simply building on materials in the world before

[stray grove]

Sure but we know literally nothing about that beyond “it happened”

[timber pond]

Creation is building something out of nothing. if something is built, then it uses Foundations Of the world itself to make it.

[stray grove]

The Nightmare Realm in its entirety appears to be an extension of the Heart so I would lean towards it having split itself off so it could do its own thing in peace

[stray grove]

We are talking about a literal deity

[spark valve]

I mean there's kind of a significant drawback to that

[stray grove]

None of the HBs have elaborate origins

In NMH’s case it doesn’t matter

Because what you are claiming is clearly false either way

[limpid summit]

The knight bro

[stray grove]

The thing that makes it a HB doesn’t have an explained origin

[limpid summit]

Yeah we don’t know the source of Soul

We know the knight

[stray grove]

The Heart is a bit of a loner anyway

[spark valve]

I mean yeah but not necessarily by choice

[stray grove]

I mean like I said we don’t know what the circumstances there were but there’s a clear advantage to splitting itself off too

It has far more control over its domain than it likely would otherwise and is probably completely protected in there

[spark valve]

at the cost of needing to do the ritual to not fucking die

there are pros but also enough cons that idk if I'd expect it to be voluntary

[stray grove]

There are pros to the ritual too

[spark valve]

also 'one realm now must stay apart'

must doesn't seem to imply that it was voluntary

it's not decisive but still

[stray grove]

I mean it’s strange that the nightmare realm is completely made of the same patchwork material the heart itself is made of

[spark valve]

is it

the heart itself is the realm

[random harbor]

Hunter's Journal: Nightmare King Grimm

Hunter's notes:
"The expanse of dream in past was split,
One realm now must stay apart,
Darkest reaches, beating red,
Terror of sleep. The Nightmare's Heart."
- Seer

@tammo6424 used /journal name: Nightmare King Grimm text: Hunter's notes

[stray grove]

Yeah exactly

The heart is its realm

This is an important distinction from the other dream based hb we see

Something like this might not be achievable without being cut off from the rest of the expanse

Where Rad is akin to a living idea the Heart is a sentient realm

[limpid summit]

Why are NKG’s horns longer

[stray grove]

Ultimately it’s impossible to know exactly what happened here but I also question what force could have permanently split off NMH in this way

It’s not like it’s imprisoned or exiled or whatever the Godseekers are still able to get to it and it can allow people like TK into its realm

[limpid summit]

Probably PK

You’d like that wouldn’t you

[stray grove]

No

I don’t agree with making up powers

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah why would PK have dream powers that's moronic

[stray grove]

Everything I’ve ever said about PK has had a basis in the established canon

[limpid summit]

Do Grimm have their own personality before being overwritten by becoming the vessel

[stray grove]

Who knows

[limpid summit]

Like WL only says clan and master after our GC has NMH in it

[stray grove]

My headcanon is that they’re all slightly different because the Heart likes to role play a lot

Like this Grimm is a Troupe Master the next one could be a Mafia Boss or some shit

[foggy fractal]

i didn't know the heart was chill like that

awesome

speaking of mafia

are we getting guns

[stray grove]

We already have guns

[sinful nimbus]

What if the next one is a haughty thespian

[limpid summit]

Youse gots ta collect the flame

[stray grove]

So true

[limpid summit]

Why is NKG called twisted

He isn’t evil

[sinful nimbus]

Brumm:

TC thinks NMH is evil pack it up🥀

[stray grove]

It’s forced out of its natural shape

[limpid summit]

Is that ludonarrative dissonance

I feel like I misuse that when I say it

[stray grove]

You’re misusing it now

[sinful nimbus]

No its narrative dissonance

[stray grove]

The Heart isn’t evil there’s nothing in the narrative to actually suggest that

[spark valve]

there's no narrative dissonance

[sinful nimbus]

Why does Brumm say what he does

[spark valve]

the heart's quest for immortality is also a distortion of nature

[sinful nimbus]

All of Dirtmouth thinks bro is evil and even a member of his own clan does 🥀

[limpid summit]

I mean even if you agreed to go work for an enigmatic dream god and you got your mind wiped

You might wake up and be like

This guys totally evil I didn’t agree to this

[stray grove]

Characters arriving at the wrong conclusion based on the information they have in-universe isn’t narrative dissonance

[sinful nimbus]

Its bad framing

[stray grove]

No it’s not

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah it is vro

[spark valve]

he doesn't even have the wrong conclusion people are just misconstruing it

[limpid summit]

Theirs is a scent of distant places, unfamiliar even to me.

[spark valve]

hollow knight fans amirite

[sinful nimbus]

Brumm gets a happy ending and isn't portrayed as incorrect 💔

[limpid summit]

Why does Jiji say this if “her” people are also dead kingdom leeches

[half zenith]

Thought: new grimm calling Hornet “auntie” just to bother her

[sinful nimbus]

"Grimm is a slave" cmon dawg

[stray grove]

Well he kind of is

[sinful nimbus]

You can't be fr

[stray grove]

Grimm is a slave to his own ritual

[limpid summit]

“Radiance..are you too infected”

[stray grove]

He’s forced to perform the ritual otherwise he dies

So he’s definitely a slave in a manner of speaking lmao

[sinful nimbus]

That's a bad way to frame it

[stray grove]

No it’s not

It’s consistent framing

[limpid summit]

So does he think he’s killing NMH by breaking its chains

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah it is dawg he's doing what he wants to keep living

[limpid summit]

That falls flat if he’s just straight up wrong

[stray grove]

What Grimm is doing is not natural

[spark valve]

it's almost like
the game
regards death as a freedom

[limpid summit]

But does NMH die

Maybe

[stray grove]

The view HK takes is that death is a form of purification

[sinful nimbus]

wrt to the vessel project yes

Which is uh a bit different

[stray grove]

No

That’s the main theme of the game

[limpid summit]

This was the only way to save you from the cursed threads

[spark valve]

the troupe is like explicitly called out as doing something parallel to the vessel project

[stray grove]

There are a lot of examples of this bruh

[limpid summit]

No I wouldn’t say so

That’s not the main theme

[stray grove]

I’m not having this meaningless debate

[limpid summit]

Nailsmith’s plotline is the complete opposite for one

[stray grove]

…

[sinful nimbus]

Yes but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a character to attempt killing Grimm for that

[spark valve]

nailsmith's death wouldn't be the natural end

[sinful nimbus]

Like Grimm isn't doing any harm so anything about him distorting nature or wtv is just yap

[spark valve]

the point of hk isn't that death is inevitable so just go die it's about trying to prolong things beyond their natural end inviting more suffering or whatever

[stray grove]

“yap” when it’s the main theme of the game

[sinful nimbus]

The troupe doesn't invite suffering

[limpid summit]

But GT would be a weird way to handle this

[sinful nimbus]

Grimm seems perfectly OK with what he's doing

[stray grove]

HK fans complaining about the writing after going out of their way to ignore every single theme

[limpid summit]

Brumm isn’t concrete in his logic

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not an HK fan don't call me that

I'm insulting its writing

[limpid summit]

Divine eats leg eater but that’s like just her

The troupe is simply there

[spark valve]

then you should be able to read 🥀

[sinful nimbus]

I read it I just don't like it

[stray grove]

That doesn’t mean it’s a good thing

The narrative doesn’t frame it as a good thing

Grimm is a slave

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but it is a good thing dawg

What ill comes from it

[stray grove]

No it’s not

It’s not natural

[sinful nimbus]

Name a bad thing about it

[limpid summit]

To what

[spark valve]

the thematics don't have to perfectly match the diegetic stuff it can be regarded as like existentially and inherently bad for the troupe to be doing it in the grander context of hk

[edgy nebula]

is this what i think it is? are we reskinning slabfly discussion

[limpid summit]

His/NMH’s own desire to live

[stray grove]

To the ritual

[sinful nimbus]

Are you pulling an appeal to nature dawg

Crazy work

[stray grove]

I mean that’s what the game says

[sinful nimbus]

ts has got to be bait

[limpid summit]

The game also says you are flee of blemishes

[spark valve]

the game is bruh

[limpid summit]

Characters can be wrong

[sinful nimbus]

So narrative dissonance..

[limpid summit]

Or at least not be taken at face value to misconstrue themes

[stray grove]

Brumm’s actions are wrong and he may be lacking the full context but his conclusion isn’t

[sinful nimbus]

And its not inherently bad bro won't even live forever

[stray grove]

It’s almost like that’s why it’s bad

Attempting to live forever is a distortion of the natural order

[sinful nimbus]

Why is it bad for bro to extend his life for as long as possible

[stray grove]

The game says don’t do that

[sinful nimbus]

"distortion of the natural order" 🤓

[stray grove]

Just accept death

It’s inevitable

[limpid summit]

Isn’t that more about ruling though

This land will never bear so foreign a king

[sinful nimbus]

Accepting death doesn't entail not living for as long as you possibly can vro

[stray grove]

No

[sinful nimbus]

Does bro think he's vespa

[limpid summit]

No one calls out Mister Mushroom for living forever

[stray grove]

But this goes beyond simple measures to extend one’s natural lifespan

[limpid summit]

Can’t the man live life to the fullest

[sinful nimbus]

Grimm is perfectly happy

[lapis creek]

kirb's 3 alts talking to each other:

[stray grove]

And here’s the 4th

[sinful nimbus]

Maybe they shouldn't have made him completely jovial in all his dialogue and dreamnail dialogue if they wanted this to be such a big existential threat

[spark valve]

ad hominemmaxxing

[lapis creek]

shut up 5

[limpid summit]

This channel is a ritual

[spark valve]

shut up 3

[stray grove]

That’s not the point????

[sinful nimbus]

The point is bad dawg

[limpid summit]

Assisting them might benefit you, but who knows what suffering it may cause?

Jiji literally is making 0 sense

[frank dove]

Guys I'm looking forward to pharloom bay music tbh

[limpid summit]

You can do ritual without inspiring anything in Brumm or killing Leg Eater

[frank dove]

I rly love the trailer music

[limpid summit]

Yeah who knows indeed

[frank dove]

If that motif is a full song it's going in top 10 from the whole ost

[stray grove]

The Heart’s entire existence is dependent on a ritual specifically designed to artificially prolong its life even if Grimm is “jovial” he’s a slave to the ritual which is a distortion of nature

[sinful nimbus]

Don't care

He's happy he gets to live

That's good

Shut up about the themes they don't apply unlike in the beautifully written base game

[limpid summit]

Hive Knight is an expert thematic boss

[sinful nimbus]

Me when I have to name a single DLC with any good lore

No he's not

[stray grove]

The themes don’t have to match perfectly

[limpid summit]

He dies we kill him

That matches with the main theme of the game

Everyone must die

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah they do or else it doesn't make any sense

[limpid summit]

Except TK and MM

[stray grove]

Any literate person should be able to notice the incredibly obvious parallels between Grimm and PK

[limpid summit]

???

You mean Grimm and THK

[sinful nimbus]

Oh my god its not always about PK

[stray grove]

Heart and PK whatever

Same thing

[frank dove]

Nuh uh

You're saying pk is going to go get rebirthed

[stray grove]

The point is both attempted to extend something beyond its natural end

[frank dove]

As a vessel

[frank dove]

Oh

I'm dumb nvm

[limpid summit]

Greyroot

[sinful nimbus]

Yes and one... failed and also caused suffering as a result of that (THK)

[stray grove]

Silksong is a different game with different themes

[sinful nimbus]

Grimm hasn't failed yet and is completely chill

[edgy nebula]

then why does greyroot also do that

[sinful nimbus]

Why are we just meddling with the ritual because of muh themes

[stray grove]

That’s not the point bruh

[limpid summit]

What do you think are is main theme

[stray grove]

Centralizing power is bad

[sinful nimbus]

Me walking up to grandma on life support and pulling the plug because she's a PK parallel (She distorts the natural order)

[stray grove]

But both games have a different view of death

[limpid summit]

So Hornet is justified in chastising PK

Alrifht

[stray grove]

She’s not chastising him

[limpid summit]

Daughter of Hallownest is WL’s Hallownest

[sinful nimbus]

So Hallownest wasn't a net positive?

[stray grove]

Hornet isn’t saying PK was a bad guy or a bad king

Oh my god

[sinful nimbus]

I thought centralizing power was bad

[stray grove]

That doesn’t mean it can’t have positive effects

In the long term it leads to ruin

[sinful nimbus]

OK so it was a necessary evil

[frank dove]

That is the 3rd game's plot

[sinful nimbus]

Or was PK wrong to create Hallownest?

[frank dove]

Ye

[stray grove]

No that’s not what she’s saying

[frank dove]

He was chillin as a worm

[sinful nimbus]

At least you're honest

[frank dove]

😜

Oop wrong emoji

[sinful nimbus]

Who is she

[frank dove]

😉

[sinful nimbus]

You said centralizing power is bad

Is it a necessary evil or was PK in the wrong

[stray grove]

Do you know how to read

[sinful nimbus]

Dodging the question I see!

[cedar sandal]

I be fr
this looks like ragebait and you are the fish

[limpid summit]

No PK never did anything wrong

He probably had a legislative branch we don’t see

Just like his maggot racism doctrines

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think King is ragebaiting he just has delusional ideas about the Pale King

[stray grove]

Hornet is saying that irrespective of what a pale being does or what their intentions are their very presence in an area will lead to these outcomes one way or another

[limpid summit]

She obviously must include herself in this right

[sinful nimbus]

OK but you said centralizing power was bad

Answer the question

Did PK do a bad thing

[stray grove]

Centralizing power is bad yes

[sinful nimbus]

So he did

[stray grove]

PK can’t be blamed because he can’t control that can he

He can’t stop himself being a literal deity

[cedar sandal]

whats the convo

[sinful nimbus]

He decided to establish Hallownest

[stray grove]

Also uh yes PK was hubristic

He was ambitious

[sinful nimbus]

He didn't have to centralize power and bind the lands beneath him in Hallownest

[stray grove]

He did

Because he’s an all powerful wyrm

[sinful nimbus]

OK so he did a bad thing great!

[sinful nimbus]

He's inherently bad, is what you're saying?

[limpid summit]

Sometimes some checks and balances can be nice so you don’t make stupid decisions

[gentle aspen]

I’m going to ask you to not twist people’s words in order to fit your agenda

[stray grove]

In the sense that pale beings naturally will become centralizing powers yes

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not twisting any words that's the natural conclusion

[stray grove]

That doesn’t mean he’s a bad person or a bad king

[gentle aspen]

no

doing a bad thing doesn’t make you an inherently bad person

that’s like, the definition of twisting things

[sinful nimbus]

I see, thanks

[lapis creek]

is a person bad if their nature predisposes them to doing a bad thing

[sinful nimbus]

I only asked if he did a bad thing

[lapis creek]

are they accountable for the effect they have on others

[stray grove]

No

[cedar sandal]

While it is a pale beings nature to dominate, its not justification.
We don't look at murderers and go "oh its their family nature" and don't give out punishment.
Nature can be fought against, like Hornet did by setting up the trap with the snails.

[gentle aspen]

and then you asked if kirb said he’s inherently bad

[sinful nimbus]

As in is this bad thing he did inherent to his nature yes

[gentle aspen]

I mean

[stray grove]

This isn’t the point

[limpid summit]

Yes

People aren’t judged in a vacuum

[gentle aspen]

Hornet can be argued to dominate through other means

[sinful nimbus]

Um

[gentle aspen]

Also she objectively didn’t think too hard about what she was doing with the trap as the shamans state

[cedar sandal]

She knows when its time to fight against her nature and do the right thing.

[gentle aspen]

It’s also weird to bring up murderers in this case when that isn’t an equivalent thing

[sinful nimbus]

The goal isn't really to punish criminals per se it should moreso ensuring they don't commit crimes again

[lapis creek]

i agree with this, people should attempt to change for the better but it's a philosophical question that's not really at the core of the discussion

[gentle aspen]

For one, fictional universe
two, not the point of prison (or at least it shouldn’t be the point)
three, murder isn’t some inherent need embedded in someone’s DNA either

[cedar sandal]

The point is that you can't blame your actions on it just being your nature

[sinful nimbus]

I mean PK kinda can in this case

[cedar sandal]

shit comparision I know

[sinful nimbus]

What's he supposed to do, kill himself?

[gentle aspen]

then make the point without the added things that obfuscate the point

[stray grove]

PK was well intentioned and made more or less every correct decision, in the context of HK’s narrative his attempt to resist nature is nevertheless framed as a bad thing because the main theme of HK is that death is the inevitable end of all things. That doesn’t mean he’s was a bad person for trying or that Hallownest wasn’t a net positive
In Silksong Hornet references Hallownest’s ruin in the context of that having been the result of PK centralizing power, which is the main theme of that game. That’s not to say he was “inherently a bad person” either it’s saying that centralizing power will inevitably lead to these kinds of outcomes one way or another

[lapis creek]

three, murder isn’t some inherent need embedded in someone’s DNA either
this is part of the hypothetical

[gentle aspen]

the hypothetical they posited

which had irl whatever

[lapis creek]

ideally we have free will and we're not predisposed to creating kingdoms or doing violence

[gentle aspen]

who tf is we

[spark valve]

Even if centralizing power can lead to bad outcomes there’s still a difference between someone like pk and someone like gms

[lapis creek]

people in real life

[gentle aspen]

bro is a homunculus who doesn’t have free will

[stray grove]

PK really had no way to avoid centralizing power is the thing

[timber pond]

Hollow knight is the one way, silksong is the other

[stray grove]

You can’t blame him for that

[spark valve]

It’s one thing to be hubristic it’s another to be a tyrant

[lapis creek]

but if a person or character did have it "in their nature" to do something bad then it would be on them to act against their nature

[stray grove]

PK isn’t doing “something bad”

[lapis creek]

whether you choose to blame them is up to you

[stray grove]

His existence is inevitably leading to bad outcomes irrespective of what he does

[cedar sandal]

question, why is centralizing bad, I was not in the convo

[stray grove]

That doesn’t mean he can’t do good

Hallownest was still a net positive

[sinful nimbus]

Well morality begins to break down in scenarios like that but again the goal is to minimize the potential harm they can cause not punish them anyway

[spark valve]

PK’s causal relationship with infection doesn’t inherently convey moral responsibility

[cedar sandal]

It is.

[limpid summit]

Were Galien and Markoth pre infection

[cedar sandal]

But pale kings wrong doings(whatever they are idk the convo) is his fault, and nobody elses

[stray grove]

He doesn’t really have any “wrongdoings” to speak of

That’s not the point Hornet is making

[sinful nimbus]

I can think of one wrongdoing

[stray grove]

PK isn’t morally responsible for what ended up happening to Hallownest and part of the point of his character is that he kind of did everything possible to prevent that from happening

[cedar sandal]

I agree.

[stray grove]

Like you can’t point to any one moment and go “if PK hadn’t done that then Hallownest would be fine”

The point is that it was inevitable

[spark valve]

You can but that action isn’t something he did with the ability to predict the negative outcome

[stray grove]

Even if he hasn’t done that Hallownest would have fallen anyway

[spark valve]

So it’s weird to consider him morally responsible

[limpid summit]

Why do you think he made so many eggs

[stray grove]

His was an impossible goal

[spark valve]

The thing was making Hallownest

[gentle aspen]

probably a multitude of reasons

[lapis creek]

if he hadnt built hallownest then less people would have been subjected to eternal torture

[cedar sandal]

bugs give birth in mass

[stray grove]

I mean yeah lmao

Fine

[cedar sandal]

and prob cause if one failed to get out of the abyss then there be another

[spark valve]

Yes but the one culpable there is the eternal torturer

[lapis creek]

it would have been a better outcome but it's a weird path to go down

yes

[limpid summit]

I mean I think he was looking for the one he saw in his pantheon 4 foresight

That seems like enough

[gentle aspen]

first time working with biological matter so he’d assume it might not take

WL probably breeds a lot, it’s one of her things

general variation

[gentle aspen]

😐

[limpid summit]

If you see a vessel front and center with specific horns

Bro

???

[gentle aspen]

I should shave my head bald and become a monk

[spark valve]

Like I said being the cause of something doesn’t necessarily make you morally responsible for it

[stray grove]

Hallownest was also still a net positive

[limpid summit]

😐 off the bat is crazy work

Tell me you don’t think that’s a good theory

[foggy fractal]

?

[spark valve]

Eh I mean there was a point where it was

[limpid summit]

What is general variation

[spark valve]

Prior to infection it was a net positive

[lapis creek]

the worst consequence he really could have predicted was hallownest eventually being destroyed

[gentle aspen]

Different bodies/horns whatever

[limpid summit]

But he didn’t even choose a big one

[lapis creek]

in which case his actions are either zero-sum or good because they improved qol for thousands of people

[gentle aspen]

anyways no I don’t think PK saw pantheon 4 with foresight

[stray grove]

I guess the infection has lasted longer than the kingdom prospered

[gentle aspen]

That’s unsupportable

[spark valve]

Which due to his character flaw of hubris he thought was an impossibility

[cedar sandal]

Now we are getting philosophical
Is existence a mistake if it lead to suffering

[lapis creek]

while the kingdom lasted

[limpid summit]

Way to misconstrue my epic awesome theory as slop

[primal plover]

Why is he ball

[gentle aspen]

suffering is half the point

[limpid summit]

You’ve totally heard it before

[gentle aspen]

I didn’t misconstrue it I literally restated what you said succintly

[gentle aspen]

yes and then I disagreed with it

[limpid summit]

Pantheon 4 CUTSCENE

[stray grove]

Apple don’t derail the convo thanks

[limpid summit]

On what grounds

[gentle aspen]

It basically presupposes godhome as the singular canon

[limpid summit]

Who is this new user

[lapis creek]

even if he believed it was possible for hallownest to fall it's hard to argue that he shouldn't have built it, for the reasons above

[gentle aspen]

and assumes how his foresight works

[limpid summit]

What in the world

[stray grove]

I mean yeah obviously that’s silly

[limpid summit]

It does?

[cedar sandal]

also we really don't know pks foresight ability

[limpid summit]

Well yeah I suppose

[gentle aspen]

of course it does

[limpid summit]

But there’s nothing we know about his foresight that I’m going against

[gentle aspen]

yeah because we know nothing about it

[lapis creek]

unless the risk of increased suffering is reason enough not to build something

[stray grove]

Irrespective of how his foresight worked there’s no universe where he foresaw that him creating Hallownest would lead to its eventual destruction with any accuracy

[limpid summit]

It’s not unsupported I don’t have to prove his foresight works like that for it to be a solid theory

[cedar sandal]

yeah

[cedar sandal]

No actually spit your shit

[gentle aspen]

Okay then prove that’s a valid theoru

[limpid summit]

Holy shit thank you

[gentle aspen]

You can’t just say shit and then be confused when there’s pushback

[limpid summit]

Okay

[gentle aspen]

You haven’t supported anything

[stray grove]

This AppleEgg guy has been dropping a lot of nonsense theories over the past few days are we sure he deserves to be here

[limpid summit]

It would allow him to extrapolate logically that he should use his offspring and Void in some way to counter Radiance

[gentle aspen]

how

[limpid summit]

He’s surrounded by weird looking dudes that look like him, they look up to hear Rad scream and then void consumes everything

It would also motivate him to be a little on edge about void

Leading to the harness lore tablet

[gentle aspen]

said weird looking dudes also look like kingdom citizens but slightly off

[limpid summit]

It is opposed to Rad but could deny Time

[lapis creek]

him creating hallownest leading to its eventual destruction is the default option, it's more or less conventional wisdom that nothing lasts forever and that if every other kingdom fell so would his. everybody realizes this except for a handful of people, pk included. it doesn't take rocket science to predict this. at the same time we have to acknowledge that it's not wrong to build something that eventually collapses

[limpid summit]

A father always knows

[lapis creek]

because then you couldnt build anything

[gentle aspen]

an equally plausible response to this would be for him to just take citizens and put them in the void with this logic

or that you know

[limpid summit]

I’m sure if Pale King looked at a vessel he would not see a normal ass dude

[gentle aspen]

he doesn’t even have to do anything

[lone folio]

And then he missed the part when the knight is going absolutely fucking berserk on the radiance. He just scrolled a bit too quickly through his ForeTube

[gentle aspen]

They’ll just crop up

[limpid summit]

True

[gentle aspen]

that isn’t what they’re talking about

[lone folio]

I replied to the wrong message by accident

Woopsy daisy but you get the point

[cedar sandal]

As a PK glazer
I am so delusional that I claim that pk actually has seen everything that will happen in the hk universe.
He knew making the vessels was important not just to defeat the radiance but also to unify the void so the void could sav Hornet in act 3 ending, oh and Hornet was important cause he knew she save pharloom.
5d chess my absolute goat.
Oh and any future kingdom saving in future entries by xyz is also planned by him.

[limpid summit]

I think he’d know that void would just kill them

[stray grove]

“As a PK glazer”
I don’t need to read any more everything you’ve said is correct

[gentle aspen]

then why did he die

[limpid summit]

Wdym he doesn’t have to do anything

He thinks Void will just kill Rad on its own?

[stray grove]

Apple stop shitposting

[limpid summit]

TK and THK and all the other Vessels are consumed by the Void wave

[gentle aspen]

the point was to save his kingdom

The kingdom just falls

[spark valve]

PK had foresight but it seems to be limited given that there’s stuff like the throne room tablet which makes incorrect predictions and can be ruled out as propaganda or something

[cedar sandal]

to get a new body and make a new kingdom from which even new saviours take birth and save millions more. ggs.

[limpid summit]

If he was in that position he would understandably be scared

[gentle aspen]

I don’t think he’d be very good at 5D chess

[muted lantern]

Was the slavery necessary for his plan

[gentle aspen]

He doesn’t have a new body though

He’s just dead

[stray grove]

What slavery

[limpid summit]

The power opposed?

[gentle aspen]

Hallownest is gone

[limpid summit]

I mean he says force that could deny time

Doesn’t mean it will

He just prepares for the worst

[cedar sandal]

will rebuild now

[lapis creek]

propaganda?

for who?

[gentle aspen]

no?

[limpid summit]

And seeing the p4 cutscene would prepare him for thr worst

[gentle aspen]

he’s gone

the kingdom is filled with zombies

it isn’t getting rebuilt

‘S dead

[lone folio]

Kingdom is filled with rotting corpses and a fading beacon of intelligence

[gentle aspen]

Anything that grows in its ashes won’t be Hallownest

[spark valve]

The region can recover but PK’s kingdom is dead and gone

[cedar sandal]

was
is fixed now
has surviors
his spell is still activate so new bugs can migrate and get a mind.

[muted lantern]

"Weakest members of the kingdom of Hallownest. Generally looked down upon and forced to do menial labour."

[gentle aspen]

it doesn’t have survivors from his kingdom that can realistically rebuild

There’s like

[limpid summit]

“Oh I’m surrounded by dudes that look like my offspring, check out that one specific one”
“Oh here’s Radiance screaming and a void wave coming up to swallow everything”
Wakes up
“Eureka! My offspring are the key somehow and Void is the power that can kill Radiance. I’d better be careful since it might harm me and my eternal kingdom as well”

[gentle aspen]

5 hallownest people still active

[limpid summit]

Not to toot my own horn but I think this is my best theory

[gentle aspen]

“I’m surrounded by dudes who look like my offspring”

[cedar sandal]

land still has his blessing tho

[gentle aspen]

he didn’t have kids how would he know that they look like his kids bruh

[muted lantern]

Also despite his disapproval did pk do anything about soul sanctum, I genuinely don't remember

[gentle aspen]

“But the king…he opposed everything I did!”

[limpid summit]

If you saw a future vision of fifty dudes wearing your fit and looking like you

[gentle aspen]

“Wearing your fit”

[cedar sandal]

my goat allows free will.....

[spark valve]

Forgot the deprived me of my immortality line or whatever

[gentle aspen]

this is a stretch and you know it

[spark valve]

He does but he also didn’t allow murder while he was still around

[gentle aspen]

that line kinda succinctly lays out he opposed him continuously

[muted lantern]

Soul sanctum was murdering people in secret and pk let it happen, foresight my ass he knew it was happening, same with the maggot slavery

[stray grove]

That they were “generally looked down upon” means it wasn’t an explicit institution
“forced to do menial labour” means they were forced to do the shit jobs nobody else wanted

Maggots were systemically discriminated against, they were not slaves. This is not something PK could realistically have done anything about so idk why it’s being brought up

[gentle aspen]

No they didn’t

[gentle aspen]

he was stopped until PK disappeared

[foggy fractal]

His jealousy... his madness... by standing against me he robbed me of my immortality!
Now the King and his Kingdom are dead... but I... will live forever.

[gentle aspen]

Again, these are beings that LOOK LIKE RANDOM KINGDOM BUGS

[spark valve]

Sure sounds like he opposed the sanctum

[stray grove]

Like yeah the maggot shit is bad but what was PK supposed to do

[gentle aspen]

It’s a bit of a leap to go “yeah man those are my kids”

[stray grove]

Joker you’re barking up the wrong tree

[gentle aspen]

He should’ve made them actual slaves

[limpid summit]

Yes they look like average Joes but that doesn’t mean every single common bug looks like them I think he’d get wise if he saw a ton of basically identical dudes

[stray grove]

This isn’t even the main problem with Apple’s theory

[gentle aspen]

I mean one of them stole his knight’s body

[stray grove]

If it can even be called a theory

[spark valve]

I mean this is a bad argument even Hunter can distinguish them as not normal

[stray grove]

Yeah

[limpid summit]

Yeah come at me with good arguments

I can take it

Probably

[gentle aspen]

hunter has hindsight after staring and hunting for eobs

[muted lantern]

Idk fam he's a god king whose worshipped by his subjects, I think he could do something

[limpid summit]

If not I’ll just pretend I was joking the whole time because that’s what I do right

[gentle aspen]

a single glance ain’t gonna do much

[limpid summit]

According to you

[cedar sandal]

Wait

[stray grove]

Do you know what systemic racism is

[muted lantern]

Pk didn't care because he was busy with bigger issues

[cedar sandal]

I need to bring up something weird

[limpid summit]

How many common bugs you think PK has seen

[gentle aspen]

at least 2

[cedar sandal]

Pk took birth when he came out of the wyrm carcus right

[limpid summit]

Yes

[gentle aspen]

He’s most likely seen a good amount of actual vessel corpses too

[muted lantern]

Yes, and as a immortal god king, you have control over said systems

[gentle aspen]

Birth what

Control?

[limpid summit]

Wgat

[spark valve]

Those systems are often implicit

[gentle aspen]

that’s not how systemic racism works

[lone folio]

The same blessing that's eventually going to dissappear. His beacon will only last for so long because it's just the afterglow of it that remains. I doubt his broken corpse is gonna last forever

[gentle aspen]

the system isn’t “oh yeah btw we’re adding racism to the next patch”

The system is social

[cedar sandal]

so he was a new born

yes?

[stray grove]

If you know what systemic racism is then you should also know it’s something that can’t be eradicated by any one person no matter who they are, even “an immortal God-King”

[limpid summit]

Joker do you think WL assumes we’re a common bug when we walk in

[cedar sandal]

I mean
that god king can legit change the mind of the bugs

[stray grove]

Anyway this is a backpedal

The maggots weren’t slaves are we moving past that

[gentle aspen]

WL can sense vessels dude

[spark valve]

Having an uplifting magical effect doesn’t necessarily mean he can like go in and pluck out biases

[limpid summit]

Why did this dumbass king create racist bugs I’m crine

[cedar sandal]

Very important thing please listen

[limpid summit]

Dung Defender also recognizes us as an offspring of PK

[stray grove]

Also it’s weird to assume PK literally wasn’t doing anything to help

[muted lantern]

My point being if God can come down in a fantasy world and tells his worshippers to stop doing something, it's a little different than real world systems of oppression. He's their God, they worship the ground he walks on.

[gentle aspen]

because he was literally

[cedar sandal]

can we stop refering to white lady as WL
i KEEP READING IT AS WOMEN LOVING WOMEN

[gentle aspen]

nvm

[limpid summit]

Uh huh

[lone folio]

Not our fault

[gentle aspen]

people ascribe deity to rulers all the time

racism still exists

[stray grove]

People aren’t just going to immediately let go of implicit biases as soon as he says something that’s absurd

[spark valve]

He’s not babysitting them and again systemic stuff is often implicit people don’t know they’re doing it

[gentle aspen]

he also can’t like, remove the racism thoughts in their heads

[sinful nimbus]

He can haunt stuff

Haunting racists is ethical

[gentle aspen]

he uplifts minds and allows them to have higher thought

[spark valve]

If a god descended today right now and said ‘don’t be racist’ nothing would change

[gentle aspen]

most racists don’t think they’re racist

only hardcore racists do

[stray grove]

Also it’s weird to assume PK didn’t do that

[limpid summit]

Kirb where are those profound issues you were talking about

I’m still waiting

[lapis creek]

i think it's a decent point to make

[sinful nimbus]

Where you getting the second w from 🥀

[gentle aspen]

not when free will exists

[sinful nimbus]

Wait until you hear about the MLs

[stray grove]

I’ll get back to you later we’re on a different topic rn

In the meantime if you could summarize your theory’s key points for me that would be helpful

[cedar sandal]

I don't care about Yaoi its all g

[floral venture]

What have I walked into? 😭

[gentle aspen]

Question

He saw a large number of his offspring

[lapis creek]

by exercising his authority pk wouldnt be able to cure racism but he may be able to reduce specific undesired behaviours

[gentle aspen]

why did he only choose one

[spark valve]

Which he may have done anyways

[limpid summit]

Because THK is standing front and center

With a very specific horn pattern

[lapis creek]

true

[gentle aspen]

So is the player character

[lone folio]

I mean knight is there aswell

[stray grove]

I mean it’s weird to assume he did literally nothing

[muted lantern]

I think it's ridiculous to say pk is completely powerless to stop an entire species from being forced into labor. By the kingdom whose laws he controls

[stray grove]

I’ve been saying this

[limpid summit]

PK is where the knight would have stood

[sinful nimbus]

So you think Verdania deserved to die? Wow

[gentle aspen]

Why?

[limpid summit]

Or he just saw THK first and didn’t look back I dunno

[stray grove]

You are now taking that journal entry out of context

They weren’t forced into labor

[gentle aspen]

why is PK suddenly taking the knight’s place

[spark valve]

Bro matpat was wrong

[foggy fractal]

matpat

[gentle aspen]

har har har har har

[foggy fractal]

freddy ?

[limpid summit]

The knight wakes to see THK standing in front of them

[lapis creek]

i think some people may be compelled to reflect on what they do if they were told it is specifically wrong by somebody they believe is god

[gentle aspen]

that doesn’t answer my question

[grizzled summit]

I came here with no context
Safe to say I don't understand

[limpid summit]

This is the vision

[lone folio]

Ok

[gentle aspen]

Why is the pale king’s foresight being done from the perspective of the Knight

[lapis creek]

religious authorities do have an influence on how people behave

[limpid summit]

The knight is the one waking up the vision isn’t top down

[stray grove]

The point is most of this shit is implicit

[gentle aspen]

because the player character is the one viewing it yes

[spark valve]

they don't know that's what they're doing

[limpid summit]

Because from a meta point of view it’s hinting at Absrad and VGFocus

That’s the point of the cutscene

Why would PK be there

[gentle aspen]

doesn’t explain anything about why PK is taking the knight’s place

[lapis creek]

luckily jesus is here to tell them

[spark valve]

most contemporary racists don't think they're racist and wouldn't honestly acknowledge that upon reflection

[gentle aspen]

You just asserted this was his foresight vision

[muted lantern]

Especially when they literally have provable godlike powers

[stray grove]

People’s implicit biases aren’t going to evaporate overnight because a god told them to stop being racist

[muted lantern]

And completely monarchical power

[spark valve]

he would say it, they would go 'oh ok I'm all set' and go about their day

[gentle aspen]

implicit racism isn’t removed because god says “don’t be racist” this was already addressed

[wheat locust]

whats the topic?

[stray grove]

That also wouldn’t really solve the issue

[gentle aspen]

You’re retreading old ground

[stray grove]

PK probably did do that in any case

[spark valve]

most racists would agree that racism is bad they just don't know that's what they are

[lapis creek]

it's not like the god is saying "stop being racist" and they're like "phew thank god that's not me"

[stray grove]

It’s weird to assume he did literally nothing

[limpid summit]

In the GAME bro

It’s a representation of his foresight vision

He would have been there in the actual vision

In the game it’s to hint at absrad

[wheat locust]

What is?

[spark valve]

it's why racists get defensive and angry when they're called racists, they think they're being called something they aren't

[gentle aspen]

you assumed he took the knight’s vision in said cutscene

[wheat locust]

Absrad? what 😭?

[gentle aspen]

also didn’t you earlier say PK wasn’t there

[stray grove]

No actually that is what would happen

[limpid summit]

What

When???

[gentle aspen]

you’re making a lot of unsupported assumptions here

[stray grove]

Most racist people don’t know they’re racist

That’s what systemic shit is

[wheat locust]

Can I hear your whole theory?

In like a paragraph

[limpid summit]

It’s disingenuous to attempt to poke at my wording

Yes

[stray grove]

Game theory didn’t die for ts

[gentle aspen]

PK’s foresight was the pantheon 4 cutscene and that’s how he came up with the ideas for vessels and how he chose THK

That’s his whole theory

He can give details but that’s the main thesis

[wheat locust]

What 😭
PK just knew Void was "the Power opposed" and he needed a somewhat living being to contain the Radiance so he made the desperate decision to sacrifice his children imbuing them with Void to contain the Radiance and save the people

or am I wrong?

[stray grove]

Yeah Grimpooper I recommend you don’t listen to anything AppleEgg says

[gentle aspen]

The guy most likely had worked with void prior and was aware of most of its function

[limpid summit]

The canon explanation for the P4 cutscene is that this is PK’s foresight, with him taking TK’s place
Multiple bugs he can logically assume to be his children behind him
The radiance roaring above
The void roaring below
THK front and center
It seems perfectly vague enough for him to extrapolate and come up with the Vessel project as well as fear Void (the tablet), and seems like the sort of vague vision trope you’d see in media though this isn’t actually evidence

[stray grove]

Everything they type out is nonsense

[stray grove]

Baseless

[limpid summit]

@gentle aspen ad hominem

[wheat locust]

Yeah, as seen in his workshop

[stray grove]

I don’t even have to attack the theory

[gentle aspen]

?????????

[stray grove]

You have no evidence

[wheat locust]

silence with the Latin

[limpid summit]

He said I only speak nonsense

[gentle aspen]

okay man you’re just trolling then I haven’t insulted you once

[limpid summit]

He’s a meanie

[gentle aspen]

bum

[stray grove]

The only reasoning here is “it’s vague I guess”

[silk dirge]

ok wait this theory cooks but theres like

[lone folio]

Why does he take tks place

[silk dirge]

no evidence for it

[lone folio]

I still dont get it

[stray grove]

Actually that’s not even reasoning it’s an assertion that reasoning isn’t necessary