sk-lore

[limpid summit]

Buu and Uub

That was a peak subversion

So many subversions with that group

Cause you’ll meet Nuu and then Styx

And then you think Styx is the Leg Eater

But he never meets Huntress

Then he dies

Nuu’s song sounds like the Greenpath violin

[sinful nimbus]

Close enough, welcome back Old Penitent sings the Conductors Melody

[limpid summit]

What was the consensus on that

Do we still think he’s Romino

[stray grove]

No bruh

[sinful nimbus]

YES

[limpid summit]

How long after assuming the yoke did conductors find out about GMS

[sinful nimbus]

I don't care if it has no evidence sometimes you have to make up lore where team cherry refuses to

[limpid summit]

How did they keep it from the pontiff for so long too

[limpid summit]

I mean it would suck if he didn’t appear in game at all

Considering the role Monomon played

[sinful nimbus]

Haunting I would assume

Also don't say yoke

We use burden in this household

[limpid summit]

I’m not saying crown

[limpid summit]

Wasn’t that really really recent

Did they all just kill themselves in whiteward

[sinful nimbus]

I don't remember anything about that

[young dune]

when does styx die

[edgy nebula]

styx isnt even huntresses species

[edgy nebula]

steel soul

[young dune]

is steel soul more cannon than non-steel soul?

[edgy nebula]

yesn’t

[sinful nimbus]

No but him dying is a subversion nonetheless

[young dune]

́cos in "normal" mode he never dies right?

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[edgy nebula]

dying isnt canon in silksong or hollow knight but confessor jiji still exists canonically so it can be assumed tk still meets her?

it’s weird

we dont really have a confessor jiji standin in silksong though so it can be assumed styx canonically dies

[limpid summit]

I know

But like

I actually refused to believe it at first

I didn’t even notice

[young dune]

im not too convinced
but pretty sure thats not too important cos styx will probably not have any impact on a sequel or sth

[limpid summit]

Steel Soul isn’t more canon it’s just like

A little bit later canonically

We can assume that in normal mode Skynx is just lying in wait

[young dune]

I assumed it was an alternate timeline or sth

[sinful nimbus]

That's also plausible

[limpid summit]

Could be

Ughhh

[whole holly]

what even is Steel Soul mode and how is it connected to Steel Hearts?

[limpid summit]

TC loves their sort of like old characters but not

[frosty beacon]

steel soul ips means nothing lore wise, but yeah, steel souls are automatons created out of steel, made by the steel city

[limpid summit]

Steel Soul mode was just called that in the base game because of Jinn

Also like

Your steel soul because you don’t die

[sinful nimbus]

fym 'but not'

[edgy nebula]

i cant wait to get no extra lore for greyroot and skynx in the dlc and they just be a mystery forever

[sinful nimbus]

Has the #1 skynx nosker fallen?

[limpid summit]

No like in public perception

Imo Nuu is Unn’s daughter Greyroot is a Root and Skynx is a Nosk

But the latter is the only one I can actually argue

[young dune]

is Nuu old?

[limpid summit]

TC is the king of potential NPCs

[whole holly]

Greyroot is Root though but weird one

[limpid summit]

The problem is Greyroot is pretty dissimilar to WL in function and we aren’t given too much of an indication that Root is a species like Wyrm

Besides like if you extrapolate the Grimm metaphor

But I still like to believe it

[limpid summit]

No she’s a kid

[sinful nimbus]

Root just means tree

[young dune]

then why give her as an example

[sinful nimbus]

White Lady is a tree Whispering Roots are trees Greyroot is a tree

And like trees they don't necessarily have to be related

[young dune]

or maybe I didnt understand your sentence

[limpid summit]

Nuu Greyroot and Skynx are all characters that are visually similar to old ones and have some other similarities ranging from superficial to solid

But TC stops short of really telling us what they are

[young dune]

oh Old as in "previous" ?

[limpid summit]

But like Isma is a tree

[limpid summit]

Yes

[sinful nimbus]

No she's a seed

[young dune]

I understood it as opposite of young

mb

[sinful nimbus]

Admittedly Greyroot isn't really a tree but she looks like White Lady who is a tree so she gets to be on the team

[edgy nebula]

wasnt return of the king arguing this and you disagreed with him? /gen

[limpid summit]

I was ragebaiting to piss him off

I do believe Isma and Nyleth are a similar thing

[edgy nebula]

yeah okay

[limpid summit]

Actually that’s another one

[sinful nimbus]

Covers blown 💔

[limpid summit]

Nyleth Isma

But like

It’s very easy to argue otherwise

They aren’t really similar

[limpid summit]

WL isn’t a tree

She’s more like a potato

[sinful nimbus]

Look at her

[edgy nebula]

white lady feels more like mycelium, greyroot feels more like actual roots and petrified wood

[sinful nimbus]

She's got the tree branches n everything

[limpid summit]

Those are roots

They’re going up

[sinful nimbus]

You can call them whatever you like but she's clearly inspired by trees

[limpid summit]

I don’t know what you mean

She’s a Root

Her head is roots her limbs are roots

[sinful nimbus]

Also like

[limpid summit]

She’s fully made of roots

[sinful nimbus]

🥀

[pale narwhal]

greyroot looks more like a parasitic worm than a root

[edgy nebula]

she’s just coiled around herself, but the witch crest room, the crying baby spot, and her house look very root-like and petrified

specifically the corpses she leaves behind

[limpid summit]

She’s got some worm aspects but Higher Beings and their spawn tend to have mishmashed designs don’t they

[pale narwhal]

in fact there are parasitic nematode worms that specifically attack tree roots

[pale narwhal]

greyroot has no explicit connection to higher beings

[edgy nebula]

i wouldnt call greyroot a worm, i feel like she is supposed to mimic a worm or a snake in a few of her animations though

[primal ingot]

Greyroot is a root it's in her name

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but what does that mean

[primal ingot]

I don't know

[limpid summit]

One of Them of course

[sinful nimbus]

💔

Pretty sure it just refers to the actual roots she has dawg

Not everything has to be a faction

Do you think WL only showed up because she knew Hallownest would fall and she's also a dead kingdom scavenger

Along with Greyroot

[limpid summit]

Would a race of Roots not be sort of tuff

[sinful nimbus]

No

WL being a unique entity is the tuffest option sorry man

[pale narwhal]

i mean, grey roots are something trees can get when theyre diseased and infected
dont know if tree worms specifically cause it but
could be greyroot is named after what she does to trees

the thing im stuck on is thag greyroot doesnt branch at all, in stead theyre long and singular

[sinful nimbus]

PK got the pass because dragons are cool and the themes of the game or wtv

[limpid summit]

No it’s not

[primal ingot]

hmm

[limpid summit]

Rejuvenation and childbirth is also a theme

PK and WL as the union of two HB species

[sinful nimbus]

What is bro waffling about

Greyroot doesn't even reproduce

She rebirths herself

[stray grove]

WL and Greyroot have some superficial parallels that are probably intentional but they’re also pretty distinct in most of the ways that matter

Beyond both being magic tree people I’m not sure there’s much to suggest a deeper connection

[limpid summit]

I feel like calling her a witch also sort of like

Downscales her

I don’t know why

It just seems more fallible

[stray grove]

I mean she’s a witch as opposed to a literal deity

What’s a witch to a goddess 🖊️

[limpid summit]

Pilgrims in a mob

Are Fixers like

An extension of Menderbugs

Convergent evolution

[stray grove]

Infected in a mob
What’s a mob to a king (PK)
What’s a king to a god (Rad)
What’s a god to a nonbeliever (LoS)

[stray grove]

Anyway what’s more important than her title is that she has no feats to write home about

She’s a parasite reliant on the shells of other bugs as a means of maintaining her own existence

She doesn’t actually do anything else

[limpid summit]

But that’s like

Pretty cool

Maybe not above all others

But above most people

[stray grove]

It’s not very impressive

Shamans and Weavers are more impressive

[sinful nimbus]

A higher being that only maintains itself through rebirth?

[limpid summit]

It’s not unimpressive

It only needs one dude

[sinful nimbus]

Unheard of

[limpid summit]

NMH needs a ton of dudes

[stray grove]

No

NMH only needs itself

[limpid summit]

Well idk

[stray grove]

It’s not reliant on anyone else

[limpid summit]

Weavers were fading

[sinful nimbus]

And a dead kingdom

[limpid summit]

Greyroot is not

Why did no one else just get the parasite removed

[stray grove]

Because Yarnaby was considered a quack and cast out

Also most bugs do get parasitized weren’t able to resist it

[edgy nebula]

i mean, she is a witch

[limpid summit]

Literally would have never been to Hallownest if not for us

These bugs’ role in the Troupe is to save NMH by drawing it to dead kingdoms

[stray grove]

I don’t think Hallownest was its only option

It’s an opportunist

[edgy nebula]

she transfers her consciousness (i think) to an accursed child and places it inside of unsuspecting goodhearted pilgrims, some very evil witchcraft

[limpid summit]

No but imagine if all those guys befell similar fates

[stray grove]

Oh my god

Completely unrealistic

[limpid summit]

No??

[stray grove]

NMH has no shortage of manpower nor is there any shortage of dead kingdoms

[limpid summit]

You don’t think dead kingdoms are dangerous

These troupe members are risking their lives

What if they die before they set up the giant conspicuous lantern

[stray grove]

Most probably aren’t

[limpid summit]

Ok

[stray grove]

Unless you’re trying to tell me most dead kingdoms fell as a result of a zombie mind plague

[limpid summit]

Tell that to steel assassins hunters snitchflies chroniclers relic seekers Roots

[sinful nimbus]

2/2 kingdoms so far its not looking good

[stray grove]

Dude like most of these factions aren’t even combative

[limpid summit]

It’s the only thing TC knows how to write

We can logically assume every dead kingdom has one

[sinful nimbus]

How did the scout even die

[stray grove]

Ok I concede on the basis that TC are bad writers

But let’s be fr

NMH and Greyroot aren’t comparable

[sinful nimbus]

Well NMH has the Reaper Crest which is weaker than the Witch Crest Greyroot has

[edgy nebula]

grimm has the reaper crest cause back in the day he owned a large farm actually

[sinful nimbus]

He is knowledgeable about agriculture

Like the moorbugs presumably would've been...

Father of the Flame???

[edgy nebula]

im the average team cherry fan, trobbio and the burning bugs are related to grimm!

[stray grove]

The former holds complete dominion of an entire section of the dream expanse functioning as essentially an extension of its own body and can split its consciousness across dozens and dozens of bodies individually capable of harnessing powerful nightmare magic as well as freely cross the veil as well as cloak mortal bugs in forms dreamed and unlike Greyroot its rebirths do not depend on it parasitizing lower life forms

[edgy nebula]

i do honestly wonder who wouldve run the greymoor farms

would it have been the burning bugs?

[sinful nimbus]

Probably just high ranking moorbugs

[limpid summit]

Cave in

[stray grove]

Greyroot does one thing

NMH has like ten powers

[sinful nimbus]

Does it need food what happened

[limpid summit]

I mean there are strong HBs and weak HBs

GMS only does one thing

[ornate pier]

The burning bugs seem disconnected from everything else

[stray grove]

Each of which is infinitely more impressive than Greyroot

[stray grove]

Incorrect

[limpid summit]

Probably

It’s a bug

[stray grove]

GMS is still far far stronger than Greyroot

[sinful nimbus]

Wait ew

[stray grove]

Even the old hearts are more impressive and they collectively are barely as strong as a single HB

A “weak” one at that

[sinful nimbus]

Why doesn't NMH use regular grimmkin for the scouting

[stray grove]

Greyroot does not hold a candle I’m sorry

[stray grove]

I mean it might

[sinful nimbus]

It didn't for Hallownest

[stray grove]

But Grimmkin could be limited by range or something

[edgy nebula]

we dont have a powerscaling for greyroot, we dont know how strong she is

[stray grove]

They’re dreams

[sinful nimbus]

Does it just show up in someones dreams and tell them to construct a lantern

[stray grove]

We can draw a pretty reasonable conclusion

[limpid summit]

I think it recruits

[stray grove]

To claim that Greyroot is a HB or approaches that level of power is simply asinine

[limpid summit]

Brumm could have done the same job

I imagine Trobbio will join up in DLC

Unironically I believe this will happen

His story isn’t over

[sinful nimbus]

Meh sure why not

[stray grove]

Grimmchild recruits Trobbio

[edgy nebula]

not really? we only see her when she is presumably rather old, and she takes hornet by surprise, we cant accurately scale that

[sinful nimbus]

Reaper crest upgrade

[stray grove]

I mean we can

[edgy nebula]

i’d say she’s like, a little weaker physically than hornet though due to the power she’s amassed and whatever witch shenanigans she does

[sinful nimbus]

Why wasn't hornet on guard

[stray grove]

Greyroot doesn’t do anything else she just sits there and waits for someone to get parasitized

[limpid summit]

She was reminded of her mother

[edgy nebula]

idk greyroot looks like her adoptive mom probably

[stray grove]

She trusted Greyroot for some reason

[sinful nimbus]

moron

[stray grove]

I mean Greyroot helped her before

[limpid summit]

Yep

[edgy nebula]

yeah

[stray grove]

In any case Greyroot isn’t physically strong

[limpid summit]

Lowkey Greyroot does give the best tool in the game

I’d trust her

[sinful nimbus]

🤨

[stray grove]

Hornet very easily breaks out and the twisted bud isn’t actually capable of taking over thanks to her resilient shell

[edgy nebula]

she probably is decently strong, we see babyroot absolutely mog guardflies

[stray grove]

Babyroot is at that point bound to Hornet’s lifeforce

[limpid summit]

Prime Greyroot is likely strong

[stray grove]

Even Hornet who is only half HB is capable of resisting her for an extended period of time

[sinful nimbus]

Her neck gets snapped

imo you shouldn't be able to look up and down for the rest of the game to account for that

[stray grove]

I mean she’s not injured

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah which breaks my immersion

[limpid summit]

I guess she bound it back together

Wouldn’t it be funny if THK immediately focused back its broken arm

And crack

No lasting injury

[sinful nimbus]

No

[limpid summit]

Aww

[stray grove]

A HB like PK or hell GMS with more control over their lifeforce could probably just kill the parasite outright

[sinful nimbus]

Its spellcasting arm is from its father and the crack is like mental damage or something

[stray grove]

Not that Greyroot would even be able to implant them

[limpid summit]

Greyroot could do it

You don’t think Greyroot could implant GMS

[stray grove]

Even if she did GMS would just kill her immediately

[sinful nimbus]

GMS is a higher being only for the narrative

She doesn't count

[stray grove]

GMS’ entire body is made of silk

And silk is soul

She has full control over silk

She could just kill the parasite or tear it out

[edgy nebula]

gms’s only feat is getting her kids to destroy khann

what a fraud

[stray grove]

She’s also literally tearing the kingdom apart in act 3

[sinful nimbus]

Its not a very strong kingdom

[stray grove]

Also the haunting is a pretty major feat lmao

[limpid summit]

Okay I know the point of the game is that it’s essentially all the same

[stray grove]

Not as far as HBs are concerned but compared to Greyroot? Be fr

[limpid summit]

But who actually hurt who

[sinful nimbus]

The haunting got handed to her on a silver platter

[limpid summit]

Khann: GMS
Nyleth: Conductors
GP: Conductors
Karm: Age

[stray grove]

The beings who sealed her received their powers from GMS in the first instance

Every weaver feat is an indirect GMS feat

She also had world sense she can also spin life from her silk

[sinful nimbus]

OK? The weavers aren't allat

Also this means she sealed herself

Loser

[stray grove]

I agree that GMS is pathetically weak compared to the other HBs yes

[edgy nebula]

if a super weak scrawny guy has a super strong son does that make him super strong

[stray grove]

I mean that’s just a false equivalence

The Weavers use silk magic derived from GMS who is the primal source of silk

[sinful nimbus]

The weavers had the smarts to actually utilize their abilities lmao

GMS chucks rocks at you in her fight

[stray grove]

.

But the fact remains that she was a big fish in a small pond

[edgy nebula]

i honestly didnt realize this
Gms’ fight couldve been more unique

[stray grove]

Compared to Greyroot she’s still very powerful

Don’t compare them

One is a bottom feeding parasite the other is a deity

[limpid summit]

I think I know why FS is a memory rather than a physical fight

[sinful nimbus]

How important is FS inventing runes

[limpid summit]

Pre act 3

[stray grove]

FS didn’t invent runes bruh

[sinful nimbus]

Because like I feel like it would be tuff if GMS used runes

[limpid summit]

Could Hornet not have just convinced FS to fight GMS

[sinful nimbus]

Silk runes

[limpid summit]

FS could have killed her

[ornate pier]

Runes are weaver invention, are they not

[stray grove]

She was the first to weave silk into runes yes

No

PK had rune magic too

[edgy nebula]

well idk, maybe gms couldve sensed first sinner’s ability and used it for herself

[ornate pier]

It is weird that the pure vessel can do that

[stray grove]

Wingsmoulds also have a rune etched shell

[ornate pier]

But werent there implications that the deepnest weavers helped with some shit as part of a deal

Idk

[cedar skiff]

why do runes have to be weaver exclusive

[stray grove]

They don’t

[cedar skiff]

fs could just have figured out a way for weavers to do it with silk

💭

[stray grove]

The FS entry clearly says that Atla was the first to weave silk into runes

It doesn’t say every use of runes ever can be traced back to her

It doesn’t even say other weavers can’t have arrived at the same technique independently

She was just the first

[ornate pier]

Are we categorizing the Seals as separate from runes

[cedar skiff]

also its funny that its the most lore hyped up silk skill and the most useless one in gameplay

[stray grove]

I mean yes

[limpid summit]

Who is Atla bro

[stray grove]

First Sinner is Atla

[limpid summit]

Yap

[stray grove]

Ok

[sinful nimbus]

ughghg

I heavily dislike how rune rage/pale nails are just regular soul spells instead of silk

[cedar skiff]

i forgot about pale nails holy shiy

[sinful nimbus]

Feels like Silk doesn't really have its own identity

[stray grove]

ALL of the spells are “regular soul spells” except for fucking gossamer storm bruh

[sinful nimbus]

Don't forget Silkspear

[stray grove]

So true

[limpid summit]

Pale nails is hornet reinventing GMS’s powers using her Wyrm side

[sinful nimbus]

And clawline

[limpid summit]

She refuses to accept her Weaver side anymore

It’s a hint towards daughter or Hallownest

[stray grove]

Silkspear is such an interesting application of silk magic fr

[sinful nimbus]

Cross stitch should've had Hornet like pulling herself back to the enemy with silk over and over

[cedar skiff]

cross stitch should be base kit like clawline honestly

[stray grove]

https://tenor.com/view/spiderman-spiderman2099-miles-morales-spiderman-across-the-spiderverse-fight-gif-24030596

[cedar skiff]

it doesn’t do that much damage for the effort required

[sinful nimbus]

Well if it dealt damage coming back it'd be cool

[cedar skiff]

why isnt binding gms arm just hornet getting the ability to pull down rocks at will

[limpid summit]

How do Hornet and bv jump so Hugh

[edgy nebula]

if weavers store/create their silk in their spine and hornet makes hers in her head, what do we think she inherited from pk to get that? assuming it’s stated she makes her silk in her head, i dont know if it’s directly stated anywhere

[sinful nimbus]

TRUE

[cedar skiff]

Lend me some strength boulders… this is cursed hornet were up against.

[mighty kraken]

true but you could also use it for the purpose of avoiding an attack rather than for just damage

[stray grove]

She just makes it inside her shell

[edgy nebula]

why does it even give her pale nails actually, gms doesnt even use silk nails

[stray grove]

As in inside her body

[edgy nebula]

gms uses scissor blades

[sinful nimbus]

they aren't even nails they're needles 💔

Worst spell OAT

[cedar skiff]

some application of the 3 mask damage attack would have been cool

[stray grove]

TC running out of ideas for spells so they just make the last two spells reskinned PV spells

[cedar skiff]

timing based like cross stitch

[stray grove]

Not to mention the three that were part of Hornet’s base HK moveset

[cedar skiff]

let hornet rip something to shreds but ig beast crest takes care of that aura department

[stray grove]

Which spell is actually new

[sinful nimbus]

Sharp Shadow

[stray grove]

So true

[sinful nimbus]

Sharpdart has the weeb afterslash effect thing

Is this aura

[limpid summit]

Impact frames

[cedar skiff]

hornet mimicking her siblings how wholesome

[mighty kraken]

silkdash or what ever its called is new

[stray grove]

Yeah but she hates her dad

[limpid summit]

What are the shade gates actually

This got me thinking

[stray grove]

And that’s his spell

[limpid summit]

Did they activate later or something

[mighty kraken]

yeah

[limpid summit]

Why did PK allow void to just billow at random points

[sinful nimbus]

What did Markoth do to get locked up behind a shade gate

[cedar skiff]

i dont think by the end of silksong she resents pk anymore

[stray grove]

He killed a lot of people

[sinful nimbus]

Hallownest's first serial killer

[stray grove]

No I mean he literally did

Read his dialogue

[edgy nebula]

she resents pk in the red memory though which is basically the end of the game? And there isnt much to change her mind about him

[sinful nimbus]

I know but busting out the shade gate is crazy

[cedar skiff]

in the red memory? is this about the journal entry?

[edgy nebula]

yeah

[cedar skiff]

i always felt sort of iffy about where the journal entries fall timeline wise although for this one itd at least make sense to take place thereafter

[limpid summit]

Does the backer lore doc refer to moths as pacifists

[sinful nimbus]

She had a lot of time to think backtracking to the abyss after Red Memory and she came to the revelation that she actually loves him and she wants to be his daughter

[limpid summit]

I like how two people had the exact same idea to make a warrior version of the pacifist tribe

And TC just had to go uh okay

[stray grove]

This is the problem with letting backers design characters

Two out of the three members of a supposedly pacifistic tribe wielded weapons

[limpid summit]

Markoth would have been marginally tiffed if thistlewind didn’t exist

[sinful nimbus]

Just add two more moths or something

Problem solved 🥱

[stray grove]

I mean more moth ghosts would have been cool yes

But backer area

[sinful nimbus]

Thistlewind is where we learn of the pacifism anyway right

[limpid summit]

Yes

Well the markoth top text

[sinful nimbus]

Why'd they add that detail then 💔

[mighty kraken]

does anyone have any zote theories

[limpid summit]

Only member of his tribe to take up a weapon

[limpid summit]

Yes

[edgy nebula]

greyroot is his mom

[stray grove]

Don’t shitpost

[limpid summit]

When we dream nail him in CoF he says go away lest I humiliate you further

He lost

The DN is supposed to truly lay thoughts bare

[sinful nimbus]

There's no rule that it has to be all backer characters tbf

[stray grove]

He’s delusional

[limpid summit]

He’s schizophrenic and hallucinating

[stray grove]

What

[sinful nimbus]

What the heck is Karina

[stray grove]

Who

[edgy nebula]

who??

[limpid summit]

The moth looking ghost

I remember a few of the names

Dr chagax

[mighty kraken]

who is greyroot

[sinful nimbus]

She counts as a moth surely

[stray grove]

She’s a member of a “distinguished species”

[edgy nebula]

https://tenor.com/view/silksong-hollow-knight-hk-greyroot-pollip-gif-2859278079664756013

[sinful nimbus]

Any victory against death will always be temporary.... 🗣️

[mighty kraken]

o ok

[edgy nebula]

im using a gif cause im too lazy to search up an image

[stray grove]

She also says she’s not seen another like herself for the “longest time”

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah mid

[edgy nebula]

also that’s a shitpost theory and likely not canon

[sinful nimbus]

If they made her a moth and added one more the problem would be solved

[limpid summit]

She’s lowkey almost more similar to Trobbio

[mighty kraken]

i think zote is a failed vessel that escaped

[limpid summit]

Still very dissimilar

[edgy nebula]

what if it’s cause she has no eyes /gen

[limpid summit]

But I think butterflies could more easily be called a distinguished species

[mighty kraken]

maybe same as the ghost but went a different wauy

[stray grove]

She has eyes

[cedar skiff]

this might as well be a tagline for silksong

[sinful nimbus]

Black streaks are often an indication of tears rather than blood

[cedar skiff]

put that in your pipe and smoke it

[limpid summit]

After the fight, Trobbio only plays dead. If Hornet moves away, then returns to him, he can be seen throwing himself to the floor to quickly resume his act. He cries out if Hornet smacks him after seeing him play dead.

[edgy nebula]

i mean, it’s a little ambiguous

[limpid summit]

Bro what

She’s such an asshole

Why would TC let her do that

[sinful nimbus]

It is a difficult thing to explain simply...

[cedar skiff]

i cant get behind this

[edgy nebula]

i cant believe hornet is a warcriminal

[cedar skiff]

trobbio should have given more citadel lore buried under his nonsensical acting

[sinful nimbus]

back in my day Trobbio was an NPC 👴

[cedar skiff]

i honestly would have found it cool if he gave like a performance on some of its history

[edgy nebula]

i feel like trobbio giving citadel lore would be a bit weird, he’s arrived to the kingdom rather recently, no?

[edgy nebula]

ok this would be epic nevermind

[cedar skiff]

is this implied anywhere

[sinful nimbus]

no indication of how long he's been around afaik

[edgy nebula]

add more cutscenes in the form of exposition dumps

[limpid summit]

Imagine if instead of disappearing into the background Ogrim fell into the dung in front of you and you could just torture him

[cedar skiff]

i always saw him as like the guy that took care of entertainment back when the citadel was bustling

[limpid summit]

I feel like he just got here

[edgy nebula]

i couldve sworn it was implied he was a recent occurrence

[limpid summit]

He doesn’t have any citadel garb

[edgy nebula]

i dont think he worked in the citadel though

yeah

[cedar skiff]

well hes also a gay useless theatre kid so

[sinful nimbus]

Ogrim would block the attacks while laughing jovially

[cedar skiff]

ohohoho

[limpid summit]

doma doma

[edgy nebula]

akomera

haaaahhhhh

[cedar skiff]

it kinda just made sense to me consistency wise because we encounter other infrastructure parts of a kingdom thats got it good like the huge kitchen. whos to say they didnt have a little jester

bread and circus type shit

[limpid summit]

Master of the Stage, the Brush and the Voice
Uhhhh??

[edgy nebula]

motherfucker is not master of the brush

[cedar skiff]

trobbbioooooooooo

[sinful nimbus]

What if Tormented Trobbio hit this pose during the start of his fight

[sinful nimbus]

The theories this spawned 💔

[edgy nebula]

we all thought seth and trobbio were gonna be related somehow

[sinful nimbus]

I was always a doubter

[limpid summit]

Going back in time and telling everyone about Nyleth

[sinful nimbus]

Stage and Brush are capitalized too its just saying he has a lovely singing voice

[cedar skiff]

“Despite not being haunted, Trobbio still willingly pauses mid-battle to sing if the Needolin is played.” Bros just happy to be here 😭

[limpid summit]

If I had a nickel for every character with a name ending in -yleth who annoyed a fanbase

[sinful nimbus]

The voice is Isma's sister also Void Garmond is canon and all your theories are wrong goodbye

[limpid summit]

How did he actually do that to his wings though

[stray grove]

@spark valve

[edgy nebula]

his wings are fully transparent and the stage lights shine through creating color

[limpid summit]

Oh word

[edgy nebula]

no probably not

i have no clue

[cedar skiff]

they voided garmond cause they couldn’t bring themselevs to void the actually likeable and relevant reoccurring npc (shakra)

[edgy nebula]

that’s the best idea i can come up with

[limpid summit]

This one chose to embrace the doom to come. I shall not share such easy surrender.

Dude what did he even do

She hates him

I thought he’d be a funny npc

[stray grove]

TC voiding Garmond after being unable to come up with literally anything interesting to do with the character

[cedar skiff]

its his cosplay be kind

[edgy nebula]

imagine trobbio is actually just really easily influenced and he got depressed from hornet’s evil aura

[cedar skiff]

its a character moment like that one convo with second sentinel

[sinful nimbus]

You ever get to a point in a game where its so stupid you have to question if its a dream

[limpid summit]

She’s so mean

Why can’t we talk to him at all

He just hides

[limpid summit]

Have I told you about my silksong dream

It was awful

[edgy nebula]

can i ask an irrelevant lore question

[sinful nimbus]

Is it worse than Act 3

[limpid summit]

Yes

And yes

[sinful nimbus]

Share

[cedar skiff]

hits the gay theatre performer because shes bored and kills the gay bugs for fun. i think we need to have a serious chat about hornet

[edgy nebula]

why is hornet’s voice so normal if she’s a weaver

[limpid summit]

Wdym

Like not raspy

[sinful nimbus]

She inherited the smooth voice genes from PK

[edgy nebula]

every weaver we’ve hesrd growls and hisses and hornet is comically normal

[limpid summit]

Actually how would she do that

[sinful nimbus]

This proves he doesn't talk with soul btw

[limpid summit]

Didn’t we agree he maybe used soul to talk

Oh well I guess you’re right

He’s got a smooth voice

[edgy nebula]

maybe it happens with age cause every weaver we see is really old

[cedar skiff]

in universe text to speech

[edgy nebula]

but hornet is old too…

[cedar skiff]

hornet doesnt age like weavers though soo

theyre normal bugs while shes a demigod

[sinful nimbus]

Freaking MM tablets have the soul speech sound effect too 😭

[limpid summit]

I had a dream that you could go into the wastes in act 3 and walk for 20 minutes until you reached an area called “Hell” that was basically like Birthplace in that it was entirely made of husk corpses and the sky turned red
Then a Head of Zote fell from the sky and cracked open to reveal a tall lanky shapeshifting boss named “Nozt” that was like a Nosk Zote

[sinful nimbus]

I don't want to let go of that theory

[limpid summit]

I think this was the night after I argued really hard about Skynx Nosk

[stray grove]

What

[edgy nebula]

my humor is so terrible im laughing from this

[sinful nimbus]

This is so tuff

[cedar skiff]

nosk is such a good plot device for subtle characterisation so i am just a little sad about one of those things not making an appearance in silksong

[sinful nimbus]

Nosks can fly so they could hypothetically introduce themselves like that

[stray grove]

Team Cherry if they were good writers

[edgy nebula]

nosk is so weird

[limpid summit]

Nosk is so awesome

[cedar skiff]

optional boss and depending on which act you fight it in it shapeshifts to a different person from hornets life hold on let me cook

for example post lace cradle let it be then knight, shit maybe pk aurabait with it or something like that

its potential man

[edgy nebula]

very evil beast that reads your mind and takes your face, no one wrote about this? weavers get on this spin us a story

[stray grove]

You know I made a Nosk DND race

[limpid summit]

Why don’t we get an awesome unzombified Nosk boss that shapeshifts at will

No I didn’t know that

That’s cool

[limpid summit]

I wonder if they like do some false Hydra shit

Like hunter is very nondescript

[stray grove]

I made a lot of HK DND races

Do you want to see

[limpid summit]

Yes

[cedar skiff]

winged nosk taking on hornets appearance in godhome will forever have me imagining how it could be utilised in similar ways sighhh

[edgy nebula]

you know i was gonna ask if because of winged nosk nosk shapeshifting it’s body was canon but i remembered it just does that in the regular fight, nevermind

[limpid summit]

I really wish we got to see the heavy fool’s face

It would give us an idea of conventional attractiveness in HK

[sinful nimbus]

1/100 easteregg where its helmet breaks upon death

[pseudo raptor]

Her voice pitch is not that far off from the little weavers’ shriek I think

[misty peak]

I finished my first run on silksong

now I have a damn question

lace speaks about how she was created straight from silk without a container for her “soul” can the same be said for her sister phantom?

[stray grove]

Yea

Though grey with age, their frayed form suggested a being strung from Silk, one who welcomed a decisive end in combat over a slow decline.

She spun us to fade... She spun us to break... Why us, sister? Why us?

[ember river]

Because she's also a wyrm

[smoky oriole]

is wyrm a worm

[ember river]

A very, very large worm with godlike powers

Easily the largest bug IIRC

[smoky oriole]

thanks

[stray grove]

Not a worm

[stray grove]

Also this isn’t necessarily true, longest maybe but there are bigger corpses seen in Silksong

[spark valve]

I mean hard to really say since we don’t know exactly how big either the wyrm or the bonebottom things are

[stray grove]

Worms are lowly creatures, like Flukes. Wyrms are literal deities with the ability to see the future who grant bugs sapience and give rise to civilizations

Wyrms and worms are two distinct things in universe

[spark valve]

Still reaching for flukes post wormways

[stray grove]

Oh lmao

[spark valve]

Groms or whatever they’re called are worms

[stray grove]

I guess flukes are only worm-like

So groms or whatever are probably a better example

[spark valve]

Probably

[stray grove]

Anyway I’m also not sure what this has to do with Hornet’s voice

PK’s voice is also not normal lmao

[spark valve]

Hornet doesn’t talk in soul whispers

[stray grove]

Yeah but someone asked why Hornet doesn’t sound like the Weavers and the response was “because she’s also a Wyrm”

When it’s probably because she’s not old (also TC didn’t think about it)

[spark valve]

Does widow even sound weird

[stray grove]

Her voice is all raspy and shit

[spark valve]

Well she’s mutilated anyways

And specifically her face

[stray grove]

Yeah but all the weavers sound similar

[spark valve]

The other ones are corpses

[stray grove]

It’s weird how weavers have another head inside their head but I won’t question that

[spark valve]

How does first dinner sound

Sinner

[stray grove]

First dinner

[spark valve]

Not a slabfly I promise

[limpid summit]

Exactly the same

Right

Isn’t it the same exact voice lines

[spark valve]

If so then they probably just didn’t think about it

[stray grove]

Yeah

[limpid summit]

Exists only to mess up mask discourse

[stray grove]

They also have the same boss theme laziest devs oat tbh

[limpid summit]

Maybe it’s just like the skin

Widow has a skinless head

[stray grove]

ew

[limpid summit]

In retrospect these claws do look like Weaver faces

I wonder if that was evolutionary or if they like cut holes in them

[stray grove]

I mean I guess she was mutilated and made an example out of it’s not supposed to be pretty

[spark valve]

There’s also shit like midwife

[stray grove]

I wouldn’t put it past the weavers to skin one of their own

[spark valve]

Like imagine if midwife had those plates removed

[limpid summit]

When do we think this happens

True

[stray grove]

Midwife is the better example

[limpid summit]

Why is midwife on villains wiki

Everyone gotta eat

[stray grove]

Devout “masks” are forelimbs

[lone folio]

Could be either

I would think it's the second option personally

[ember river]

I mean, not a worm in the HK world but still a worm-like being from our understanding

[lone folio]

Seems a bit more likely

Also it makes them more connected to Herrah

[stray grove]

I mean I would argue otherwise but regardless it’s a bit misleading to describe Wyrms as worms when those are distinctly very different things in universe

[ember river]

Eh, fair

[stray grove]

The only “worm like” quality they have is a long limbless body

[ember river]

They are burrowing creatures of titanic size and even greater power

[limpid summit]

It’s a shame they never like crawl upside down like deeplings

[ember river]

That's a better definition

[stray grove]

Sure

[lone folio]

Doesn't Grimm mock the pale king with the term "worm"?

[stray grove]

That’s a metaphor

[lone folio]

Metaphor for what?

[spark valve]

Agriculture

[limpid summit]

He says “worm and root” “fallowed” the land

Like they cultivated it for NMH by causing its fall

[stray grove]

Also the significance here is that in this metaphor the worm is actually a Wyrm it’s not saying worms and Wyrms have any meaningful connection otherwise

[spark valve]

It’s wordplay

[stray grove]

Wyrms being called that is already a bit of a play on words and yes

[lone folio]

I mean its still somewhat of a connection between the two. Not a big one but still something (as in between wyrms and worms)

[stray grove]

It’s just wordplay it’s not hinting at any deeper connection

[lone folio]

I wonder if we will ever get to see another wyrm

[stray grove]

They’re all dead

[lone folio]

Atleast a corpse

Or a mention of one that isn't the pale king

[stray grove]

I mean it would be questionable writing imo but TC are bad writers so they can do what they want

Steel city DLC will have a compressed steel wyrm let’s go

[spark valve]

Blegh

[stray grove]

I say this because Wyrms are pretty significant and to just have a random Wyrm corpse like it’s saying “a Wyrm was here” would be goofy

[limpid summit]

Don’t you mean Wyrdplay

[stray grove]

Also PK is cool please don’t sully his memory anymore thanks

SS has already done irreparable damage

[limpid summit]

Send 20 billion Geo to a useless kingdoms edge tram

[stray grove]

It’s not useless but I’m not revisiting that discussion

[limpid summit]

Either he began encroaching on the Hive’s territory and didn’t disable the tram once they said no

Or he randomly started building after

Waste of funds either way

Maggots are dying

[stray grove]

“Waste of funds” he’s the king bro

[limpid summit]

Okay?

[spark valve]

Bro think he false knight

[lone folio]

Maybe but still I would like to see or hear of atleast one more wyrm dude somewhere

[stray grove]

I mean it’s implied they’ve all been dead for quite a long time

PK was the last wyrm and even he’s ancient history atp

[ember river]

Where would they even go if not to expand the kingdom?

It's like asking a ruler to build more housing and then complain because he built the roads for the neighborhoods first

[ember river]

Aren't they kind of extinct?

[stray grove]

PK was the last member of his species… guy can’t catch a break 😔

My poor king… he shone too brightly in the end

[ember river]

The flame that brights twice as bright lasts half as long

[lone folio]

I don't want an alive wyrm like I would be more then happy with a wyrm corpse or a mention of a kingdom made by one and how that kingdom was like. Like idk an ancient kingdom that collapsed a long time ago that was the built over by the city of steel? Like I just want to see a non pale wyrm because our only glimpse into the wyrm species is with magical PK who got lucky awesome genetics. (and anything but blackwyrm actually being a wyrm)

[ember river]

Blackwyrm being an actual wyrm would make me mad

[lone folio]

The name blackwyrm itself being the name for a wyrm would make me quit HK forever (I'm joking)

I would perhaps be fine with it being a battle with another wyrm kingdom

[ember river]

I wish it was just the Pale King being pissed off at some pretender claiming to be a wyrm and sending the knights as a hitsquad

[lone folio]

Lord fool...

[sinful nimbus]

The way I'd go about it is the blackwyrm being a mythical king in like a fairy tale or wtv

[lone folio]

Imagine if he proclaimed that the big bug corpse was his wyrm form

[ember river]

Yeah, some ruler of legend or something

[lone folio]

But then what would the conflict the white defender mentions be about?

Did he fight a fairytale??

[sinful nimbus]

Named after something in a fairytale

[ember river]

I'd guess it was an actual battle that just identified with a prophecy or whatever

[sinful nimbus]

Its battle of the blackwyrm not battle against the blackwyrm

[ember river]

The Pale King had foresight, he probably spelled some prophecies or something

[craggy smelt]

some marauding bug warlord with delusions of grandeur

[sinful nimbus]

I mean yeah it could just be a PK opp

"I hate this white wyrm so I will call myself the black wyrm"

[lone folio]

It's funny how such a presumably unimportant lil mention is debated so much

Just because it has "wyrm" in it

[smoky oriole]

alright thanks man

[foggy fractal]

sooooo tuff

[ember river]

It's arguably one of the most relevant words to the setting considering how influential those things are

[graceful grail]

How do you know he was the last one?

[foggy fractal]

"This falling ash is moult. The Wyrm's corpse decaying. Endless. Rmm... Serene. Sad.
With its like gone, the world is smaller." - Bardoon

[edgy nebula]

kingdoms edge probably stinks

[sinful nimbus]

That doesn't say he was the last wyrm although I don't think that's implausible

You could argue 'No Blazing Kin' refers to other wyrms instead of the Radiance

[foggy fractal]

where is this no blazing kin dialogue from

[tawdry flare]

This reads to me more as all wyrms being dead not necessarily that PK was the last one

[sinful nimbus]

White Palace lore tablet

No blazing kin. Only one light shall shine against the dark.
The Wyrm becomes beacon, minds expanded, to yield, to devote.
Eternity in promise and charge in progeny cursed.

[foggy fractal]

🗨️

[sinful nimbus]

Is that a sun rune

Theory over pack it up 🥀

[edgy nebula]

the long rune next to it looks a little like a wyrm

[foggy fractal]

Theory is back

[craggy smelt]

Blazing Kin could be wyrms, but I think Radiance is more plausible - both she and PK are described as 'lights' by Seer and Monomon

they're compared as similar beings multiple times

we're only speculating on whether other wyrms count as 'lights'

(blackwyrm doesn't sound very bright... one way or another)

[stray grove]

Uhm

[stray grove]

“With its like gone”

[stray grove]

Blackwyrm was probably not a Wyrm

[craggy smelt]

which means they would have to be pretty dim to go around calling themselves one

[dense ridge]

You keep saying this

[stray grove]

I mean not necessarily, we don’t know the context behind the name Blackwyrm and it might not even be a person but assuming it is it’s a fine title for someone to announce their opposition to the white wyrm

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah all wyrms have transformed so what

[stray grove]

I mean that’s technically possible but a pretty goofy interpretation imo

[sinful nimbus]

But TC are bad writers so they can write whatever they want

[stray grove]

So true

Can’t argue with that!

[edgy nebula]

are you two like twins or something

[sinful nimbus]

Ew

Like I'd want to be twins with that guy

[stray grove]

Anyone who has an appreciation for the pale king is cool in my book

[dense ridge]

Ok it's a meme I get it

That's actually pretty funny

[sinful nimbus]

Is it

[dense ridge]

Yes

[dense ridge]

The Return of the Pale King

[stray grove]

We should be calling him the white king really

In HK he’s referred to as the white king the same number of times he’s referred to as the pale king

[spark valve]

corporate wants you identify the difference between these two pictures ahh

[stray grove]

He also lives in the white palace with his wife the white lady and his most loyal knight is the white defender

[sinful nimbus]

Anyway

No blazing kin. Only one light shall shine against the dark.
Wyrms are all gone. I'll be the last one
The Wyrm becomes beacon, minds expanded, to yield, to devote.
I start Hallownest
Eternity in promise and charge in progeny cursed.
I have to kill my kids to make it eternal

[stray grove]

Silksong calls Hallownest the kingdom of the white wyrm

[spark valve]

because there's such a big difference between pale and white

[sinful nimbus]

OK who wants to start calling him the white king

[stray grove]

Ok the no blazing kin line obviously refers to rad because that’s the context

Why is he randomly talking about the other wyrms

Also blazing

[timber pond]

Hmm kin 🤔

[sinful nimbus]

Cuz he's the last wyrm dawg

[stray grove]

Rad is blazing

[spark valve]

so is star apparently

[stray grove]

That’s not relevant in the context of the tablet though

[sinful nimbus]

Its talking about the history of Hallownest

[timber pond]

Another win for radiance is pale being @craggy smelt 😎

[stray grove]

Also what does only one light shall shine against the dark mean

[sinful nimbus]

He wants to make an eternal kingdom cuz he's the last one

[stray grove]

Is this a Bob the Hollow alt

[sinful nimbus]

Last wyrm to create a kingdom

I'd expect you to be more open to interpretations that agree with your own

[stray grove]

🥴

[spark valve]

even in your analysis it wouldn't be that it would be being the last wyrm kingdom alive

[stray grove]

^

[timber pond]

You can look back at my message history and see that I surpass whoever you are talking about in time on this server lol

[sinful nimbus]

Same difference really

[stray grove]

No

And that’s still a stupid interpretation

[sinful nimbus]

GOOD argument

I never thought of it like that

[spark valve]

it's true that the wyrm becomes beacon line is out of place if you read the whole thing as about defeating rad but eh

[stray grove]

He’s talking about the vessel project the objective of which was to seal rad who is described as blazing and also his kin in the sense that they’re both lights it makes no sense to start yapping about the rest of his species

[sinful nimbus]

Exactly

Its about Hallownest as a whole

[stray grove]

I mean

[spark valve]

it could also just be the rationale

[sinful nimbus]

The vessel project is framed as ensuring its eternity

[stray grove]

The beacon line is saying that with rad out of the picture his beacon won’t have anything interfering with it

[sinful nimbus]

The tablet as a whole isn't about that

[spark valve]

I mean not... really?

it's just describing the founding of the kingdom

which sort of makes sense given the next line talking about eternity in promise

[stray grove]

Its placement there isn’t that strange though

[sinful nimbus]

So the preceding line is about before that

His motives

[spark valve]

it's a little odd

[stray grove]

Not necessarily

I beat Rad > I’m a beacon > my kingdom lasts eternal thanks to my sacrifice

[spark valve]

but he was a beacon before beating rad

kinglight

[stray grove]

Yes but the beacon is the reason he has a kingdom in the first place

[sinful nimbus]

Why do you think Blazing Kin has to be about Rad

[spark valve]

I mean

blazing is sure a word to use

[stray grove]

I don’t think it’s weird to refer to the beach here

Beacon

It’s the reason any of this even happens

[sinful nimbus]

He reportedly hurt to look at

If his kin glowed it wouldn't be weird

[spark valve]

sure

they are both lights

pk and rad

[stray grove]

Other Wyrms could conceivably be “lights” in the same abstract sense

They all do the civilization building shit

Or more accurately the unity shit

[spark valve]

in fact they probably are

[stray grove]

They all have beacons so yeah

But calling them blazing would be strange

PK’s light isn’t blazing in this context blazing mean uh pissed off and burning everything around it

[spark valve]

I mean I agree that it more likely refers to radiance but in the hypothetical where it's about other wyrms the context isn't a problem that way

since you could just read it otherwise

[stray grove]

That PK was a beacon before sealing Rad doesn’t change that the effects of his beacon (to yield to devote) were being obfuscated by her
“Only one light shall shine against the darkness” means that with her out of the picture his light will be the only light which logically follows into “the Wyrm becomes beacon” since he’s describing the effects of his own unopposed light

It’s not meant to read as a sequence of events

[sinful nimbus]

Yes that is a valid interpretation I just think it can also be read in this way

[stray grove]

Yeah well I think your interpretation sucks

Sorry I’m not compromising anymore

It makes infinitely more sense for it to refer to Rad than for it to refer to some random Wyrms we’ve never seen using an inappropriate adjective

[sinful nimbus]

Facts don't care about your feelings

[dense ridge]

Is this argument about the term "blazing kin"?

[sinful nimbus]

We don't need to see wyrms for it to make sense nor is it incorrect to refer to wyrms as blazing

[stray grove]

The fact of the matter is there exists a likelier interpretation that makes more narrative sense (and is more appropriate give the context and PK’s character) than the suggested alternative

[stray grove]

Go and google what blazing means then come back and tell me what you think it means in this context

It referring to other Wyrms would be a bizarre choice

[spark valve]

letting the benst out is crazy

[dense ridge]

I mean, it could also being referring to Gorgeous Husk. We just don't know

[sinful nimbus]

Comparing the wyrms light to like a blazing fire wouldn't be weird

[stray grove]

Yes it would

[sinful nimbus]

They hurt to look at

[stray grove]

A blazing fire is dangerous and all consuming, burning brightly and fiercely

[sinful nimbus]

Devotion or destruction...

[spark valve]

The danger part doesn’t have to be implied in the text you’re begging the question

[sinful nimbus]

These are the only fates their kind allow

[dense ridge]

Not even in reference to wyrms

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah it is

[stray grove]

Sure that part doesn’t matter but the word otherwise makes far more sense to be used in reference to Rad

[spark valve]

Literally 100% of PK’s character is not believing this 😭

[sinful nimbus]

Well its in reference to pale beings which all wyrms presumably are

[stray grove]

I was explaining to Star what the image of a blazing fire evokes

[dense ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/family-guy-clapping-in-tears-gif-12272922

[stray grove]

Since she seems to think it just means something bright

[sinful nimbus]

Then why did TC type that into their keyboards

[stray grove]

That’s what HORNET thinks

[spark valve]

Because hornets stupid

[sinful nimbus]

Their beliefs about PK clearly don't align with King's

[pine flax]

the content of the tablet is directly pertaining to the rivalry between PK and Radiance, other Wyrms aren't relevant

[stray grove]

Also the devotion or destruction line is completely taken out of context

[spark valve]

Also PK’s flaw is hubris he’s wrong

[sinful nimbus]

It also is just talking bout Hallownest though

Also hi vurse

[stray grove]

If you want something to complain about complain about the MM dialogue

[pine flax]

Hey Star! and welcome back kirb

[stray grove]

The GP dialogue doesn’t mean that

Hello Vurse

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah it does

[stray grove]

No it doesn’t

It’s just badly written

[dense ridge]

Right because TC are bad writers

[sinful nimbus]

She says verbatim that pale beings only allow devotion or destruction like wym

[stray grove]

Now you get it

[sinful nimbus]

I think its nonsense but that's what it says

[stray grove]

Hornet isn’t actually saying “the only options a pale being will give you are to die or fall in line” bruh

[sinful nimbus]

But that's what she says

[stray grove]

She’s talking about the downstream effects of their rule

[spark valve]

star you're taking it out of context

[stray grove]

Verdania FELL IN LINE

It still died

[spark valve]

verdania fell in line and it wasn't destroyed by her

[sinful nimbus]

In which case Pale Beings aren't "allowing" anything nor is there a choice between the two options

[stray grove]

It’s not a choice no

And no it’s not a decision they consciously make it’s a consequence of their rule

[sinful nimbus]

So uh its wrong

[spark valve]

no it's figurative

[sinful nimbus]

Of what

Like the narrative consistently frames the pale beings as being at fault

[pine flax]

which by extension is a consequence of their entire existence to begin with

[spark valve]

for centralizing power not for being evil in their own right necessarily

[stray grove]

Not in the way you’re claiming?

The narrative is more concerned about the centralization of power yeah

[sinful nimbus]

Which is cool but not what this line is talking about

[spark valve]

but it is

[sinful nimbus]

If it was the words would be different

[spark valve]

Hornet: The heart of a graceful lord. In its taking I was able to witness his caves and kingdom as once they flourished.
Hornet: A stunning sight. Unique. All gone... Lost to the pale monarch... and the system to keep her caged.

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

Verdania's destruction had jack to do with them not devoting themselves to GMS

[spark valve]

she's saying those are the only outcomes not that it's a choice

[stray grove]

It goes without saying that death is the inevitable fate of all things in this universe but the point of Hornet’s line here is to absolve GP of his inability to take the throne by drawing his attention to the fact that he was under the thumb of a higher power

[sinful nimbus]

Its presented like a choice

[spark valve]

but it's not

[stray grove]

Yeah it’s not well written whatever

But it’s clearly not actually a choice

[spark valve]

the context is her telling green prince there was nothing he could have done

she's saying there wasn't a choice

[sinful nimbus]

Sure

[spark valve]

and her point isn't that pale beings are mean and say follow me or die it's that the existence of that kind of power leads to these sorts of outcomes one way or another

[stray grove]

“You were at the mercy of a god there’s nothing you could have done it’s not your fault”

[spark valve]

she's saying gms simply being in pharloom doomed verdania

which it did

[stray grove]

I mean these outcomes are inevitable regardless but yes the point is to absolve GP of his guilt

[sinful nimbus]

I can concede that's what TC meant but at the end of the day that's not what they wrote

[stray grove]

You can complain about the line being badly written

[spark valve]

in context it absolutely can be read that way

[sinful nimbus]

If you ignore that it sounds like a dilemma

[spark valve]

If you ignore context literally no sentence makes sense

[stray grove]

“If you ignore the context it means something else”

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah sure

[spark valve]

if your criticism is contingent on removing it from the context then you don't even have a case that it's confusingly written

[sinful nimbus]

The wording is really bad though be fr

[stray grove]

I don’t like it either

[spark valve]

it's badly worded

[stray grove]

Because TC are bad writers

[spark valve]

you have to like stop and think about it for two seconds for the pale beings are mean reading to be wrong

and you know hollow knight fans

[stray grove]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again if you want something to be mad about the Mask Maker dialogue is probably more offensive

[foggy fractal]

hi hollow knight fan here

[spark valve]

I'm so sorry you never learned how to read

[frigid belfry]

wtf is it this time

[stray grove]

“I’m not like other pale beings” 💀

[sinful nimbus]

I am not my kin, maker 🗣️

[stray grove]

Hornet is literally a white savior who thinks she’s not white

[sinful nimbus]

"savior"

[frigid belfry]

?????

[spark valve]

why is this true

[frigid belfry]

how did we get to pseudo-racism lmao

[foggy fractal]

holow knight :D

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah King don't be racist

[stray grove]

What

How is that racist

[sinful nimbus]

Well its not racist racist its pseudo-racist

[stray grove]

So true bestie

[foggy fractal]

what does racism have to do with silksong lore ? oh wait

[frigid belfry]

they just went in a giant circle lmao

back to the slabfly debate

[foggy fractal]

all roads lead back to slabfly discourse

[pine flax]

the reason she thinks this is probably because she doesn't desire a throne like other pale beings she's come across

[spark valve]

until she does

[pine flax]

like previously iterated, its the immense power that they innately hold that's the issue

[stray grove]

Hornet fits the trope since she’s a white person (pale being) portrayed as aiding “mortal bugs” from hardship despite being driven by self serving motives (e.g. Plasmium sidequest, the activation of her evil genes (you can’t make this shit up)) and she’s clearly biased against shit like the slabflies despite being presented as altruistic ultimately suppressing local agency and when all is said and done everyone else is helpless without her but when MM literally goes “oh wow what an honor your kind normally don’t lower themselves to assisting the common folk” she goes “I’m not like other white people”

[spark valve]

spitting

[sinful nimbus]

At least the other MM from the first game has a fire wyrm callback line

If any other could come to understand that state, Wyrm child, I suspect it may be you... 🔥 ✍️

[stray grove]

I am not my kin, Maker. I have seen enough pain born of their dominion. As much as I may, I choose to stand apart.
🥶

[sinful nimbus]

ew not that one

[foggy fractal]

wait did they really say 🔥 ✍️

[sinful nimbus]

I actually like MM aside from this interaction though

[pure turtle]

Ngl, I never seen Caretaker interacting with Sherma at all

[stray grove]

They don’t interact

Most NPCs don’t interact with one another

[sinful nimbus]

Your mask... It reads clear enough, Old One. Watcher, hunter, monarch even, though you may reject that station.
A complex visage, perhaps, yet still to my sight it looks unresolved 🗣️

[pure turtle]

Yeah, that’s why we never seen him making Sherma a new caretaker despite them never interacting with each other which is weird.

[stray grove]

I don’t like how he calls Hornet Old One she doesn’t deserve that title

[sinful nimbus]

So true

Shamans also call her that is that just a common in-universe term or something

[stray grove]

Yeah but like Old One has aura I don’t care that she’s literally old

Wyrm child is better

[pine flax]

they should call her unc

[pure turtle]

Hornet is like young here

[stray grove]

She’s not

[sinful nimbus]

I didn't expect you to take kindly to Hornet using the wyrm's likeness

[pure turtle]

I think Caretaker called Hornet bellringer at first

[stray grove]

I mean it’s accurate, and it should be acknowledged that her power is derived from the wyrm

[silk dirge]

since when did pale being = white people

[stray grove]

The weavers contributed fuck all I hate wyrm erasure

[sinful nimbus]

Barely...

[stray grove]

They’re literally white idk what to tell you

Also PK and WL are colonizers

And GMS is a colonizer and a slaver

[pure turtle]

The Weaver decided to killed GMS after she treated them like shit

[sinful nimbus]

"Though our strength is born of similar source" 🤓

Why is she lying

[pure turtle]

Yeah, don’t know why

[dire lynx]

prove yourself more weaver than wyrm 🤢

[silk dirge]

i mean not really tbh he did nothing anywhere close to what gms did

[stray grove]

That was a joke

PK isn’t actually a colonizer

[pure turtle]

“Wyrm killed my mother”

Grandma, precisely

[stray grove]

But he does loosely fit the white savior trope

Not as much as Hornet

[silk dirge]

i was hoping it was a joke

[pine flax]

it must have been in TC's intention whether subconsciously or not to antagonize pale beings while characterizing Hornet as the altruistic exception, I don't think you can handwave it with bad wording in every case

[silk dirge]

no one does the pale being = white people comparison unironically

[pine flax]

Not to say that's not also at play

[stray grove]

Yes which is why I think the MM dialogue is better used as the example of that since it’s pretty clear in context that the GP dialogue is just Hornet trying to absolve him of guilt

But the issue isn’t that pale beings are malicious

It’s that centralizing power is bad

Which is what they do irrespective of their intentions

[spark valve]

oh yes they do

[pine flax]

agreed. it seems TC confused themselves and lose sight of that during the writing process, so that message ended up quite watered down

[silk dirge]

anyways i may be cooked im on the verge of writing a comparison document between the citadel and an rbmk reactor😭

dont ask anything about this it doesnt make sense anywhere but my brain

[stray grove]

As you may have gathered I’m not the biggest fan of this game’s writing either

[pure turtle]

Somehow, pale king is a “saint” compared to GMS

[sinful nimbus]

?? ..is this real??