sk-lore

[sinful nimbus]

What?

Hornet says higher beings don't live up to their title, that's all

The exact phrasing she uses is god but she's pretty clearly talking about higher beings

[frosty gate]

We know it's a Higher Being I think, it's just different from VGFocus

Well, VGForm also had the Siblings

For like

A moment

So Followers I guess??

[opal magnet]

Thats why I'm saying the difference between god and higher being
That while something may claim itself a god, few know the term higher being refers to such, and those knowledgeable to know the term rarely have the ego to claim themself a higher being, not just a god.

That is to say, while some would claim those such as Green prince to be a god, those knowing of higher beings would not claim them to be such.

[frosty gate]

Also, someone said something about the Old Hearts a while ago

They're no higher beings, but I feel like they had the potential to be

And that's the point of the OH

[opal magnet]

Yeah
I said that

[frosty gate]

Yeah I just got lost in the other side of the conversation

[opal magnet]

They had a lot of followers/worshippers, and with time and growth could become such.
But GMS cut that chance short

[sinful nimbus]

This sounds more passive aggressive than i meant it mb

[frosty gate]

Yeah pretty much

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not really using god how characters in-universe ise it

[frosty gate]

Which then brings us to the real question

FotF, was that fucking thing a potential Higher Being?

[sinful nimbus]

Higher Beings are like, god gods, like we think of them irl/in general fantasy.

[frosty gate]

Probably yes

[opal magnet]

Ah
So a difference of terminology is our conflict, not meaning.

[frosty gate]

Baby HB I guess?

I still can't process Wisp Thicket honestly, I love the place but it's probably the most uncomfortable I've felt in an area

[opal magnet]

I find it neat, it shows the visible power from worshippers of a thing

[dire lynx]

it doesnt tho? its just a bunch of whisp lanterns

[opal magnet]

And also points to the quantity/quality of worshippers thing, because while there weren't many, they were willing to die to avoid being haunted by the silk, so dedication to the point of dying with their "God"

[frosty gate]

The Firebugs worshipped the FotF

[dire lynx]

yes, but it doesnt have any actual power or sentience, its a big totem with some whisp lanterns attached

[frosty gate]

It roared at us dude

[dire lynx]

Totem and god, built and worshipped by the Burning Bugs.

[frosty gate]

It defended itself

[opal magnet]

This
And phase 2
If it was just phase 1 maybe
But...

Plus even it tries to Kamikaze as it dies

[frosty gate]

That thing was sentient

Not much

But it was

[opal magnet]

Just like the worshippers

[dire lynx]

its an object built by the burning bugs, it is not alive

[frosty gate]

I would like agree with you because I would hate that thing to be alive

But again

It roars

And there is a dead bug inside the fire

[plain gazelle]

i mean, the wisps are alive

[frosty gate]

So kinda living?

[frosty gate]

Hornet doesn't address it, but she doesn't seem to know what they are

[dire lynx]

the whisps are living, not the totem or dead guy inside

they are like void, a unique state of life

[frosty gate]

Okay but what about the roar???

[opal magnet]

I believe its a sort of hivemind with central body
First totem was built, through worship slowly started forming and was able to make wisps
From there, more lanterns were lit with its fire and able to make more wisps

[frosty gate]

Doesn't it even have Needolin Dialogue

[plain gazelle]

yeah it has needolin dialogue, where it talks in plural because it's a bunch of wisps

[dire lynx]

im looking at a video of the fight it doesnt roar, it makes a burning sound like the whisps do when they spawn

[frosty gate]

And the wisps have to be coming from somewhere

That's a different magic

[opal magnet]

After killing the main body its effectively braindead, not 100% dead but close, as the few wisp lanterns left and of course its drop

Mere remnants, soon to fade

[frosty gate]

Fair, but you clearly see it burning more once you kill it's arms

[plain gazelle]

looking at this my theory is that it's a cult sort of making flaming equivalents to silkflies. The bags in their thicket have the burnt corpses of pilgrims, perhaps in a ritual which extracts their soul. The soul then manifests as wisps, similar to silkflies. Father of the Flame is a big totemic collection of wisps, and even visually looks similar to Fourth Chorus, which is a hivemind of silkflies

[frosty gate]

Or not more

[dire lynx]

the whisps appear to have come first, leading the burning bugs to worship. not the other way around.

Many-legged insect fanatically obsessed with flame.

These ones somehow learnt to call and guide the scorching Wisps that share their thicket. Whether through dominance or reverence is unclear.

[frosty gate]

Harder

[frosty gate]

Which brings the question, where the fuck are the wisps coming from

[opal magnet]

Burning soul(s)
Usually formed into silk

Thus why the wispfire lantern burns silk to use

And why it was worshipped, to burn away the silk of the haunting before it could near the followers

[frosty gate]

The wisps itself are said to be born of the flame

I feel like Hornet would point out if these were just burning Silkflies

[opal magnet]

And the flame is borne of
Magic and worship

[dire lynx]

the worship came after the flame, not the other way around

[plain gazelle]

it's not like hornet really knows what a silkfly is either, and I mean more as a parallel, not the exact same process

[opal magnet]

Magic initially
Then worship

[frosty gate]

Well we can only guess which came first to be honest

[plain gazelle]

there's definitely some "Father" that the wisps themselves are worshipping (needolin dialogue for fotf), maybe some entity that got the ball rolling by getting some cultists to produce wisps?

[opal magnet]

Fires do need lots of kindling to start

And for a god that literally burns soul to persist?
Well...
The bodies do make a lot of sense thought of that way

[dire lynx]

that specific dialogue i believe comes from the dead guy inside. see how its different from every other piece?

[ionic basalt]

Maybe burning silk gives it weird properties? Since their idealogy is to burn all things silk

[frosty gate]

I think the FotF came first and then the Wisps started to appear

[plain gazelle]

that makes sense too

[frosty gate]

And then the Burning Bugs somehow learnt to use them somehow

[covert night]

wasnt fotf is a totem built by burning bugs

[dire lynx]

yes

[frosty gate]

I mean, yes, but I mean the magic came from that

From worshipping it

[ionic basalt]

Prob one bug(fotf) led a revolution to burn things? Then after they died they were made into the totem, with the other bugs carrying on the mission

[frosty gate]

I wish I could believe you but BBs have no lore and there's no telling what they did before all this

[ionic basalt]

Well imo its just a cult to burn the silk so

Just a neat thing that happens

[opal magnet]

My understanding is
Wisps could be formed beforehand, but not anywhere near the level the enemy spawners make (as seen with the wispfire lantern)
That magic was focused in a totem to worship as it worked a bit against the haunting and started to form a godling
This fire could then form wispfire lanterns which were fueled in part by worship, and with consistent sacrifices from the followers of the flame, that's how father of the flame was brought to the state seen ingame

[frosty gate]

They are probably new tho right?

[plain gazelle]

I think so, the craftmetal room implies the citadel used to use it as a connection from underworks to greymoor, which would probably mean the cult arose as a response to the haunting

[dire lynx]

the way i see it father of the flame is a flase god, as in not real. the burning bugs created him to explain the magic they witnessed in the thicket

the only people who refer to or suggest his exiastance are the cultists themselves

[frosty gate]

I will have to add that to the Timeline whenever I get there

[opal magnet]

Due to the suicidal levels of dedication of the followers and if sacrifices were equally scaled up to even that of Skarrsinger Karmelita, I believe it could have become a very weak higher being.

As it has around 30 or so followers with a highball estimate, while Karmelita has at least a good 300 or so based off the dream if scaled to the region

[opal magnet]

Which means a TON of sacrifices, at least ~150.

[dire lynx]

we just pulling numbers out our ass

[frosty gate]

Leapsong, the game where you gotta make mental leaps to piece out lore

[opal magnet]

I'm trying to lowball the ant population to account for relative size of ant colonies, versus enemy count of the Wisp region

[dire lynx]

i still havent actually seen evidence that higher beings can be created

father of the flame is a scarecrow with magic lamps placed in it

[limpid summit]

TK was sort of “created”

[frosty gate]

I'd say VGFocus but Tk is a special case

[limpid summit]

If anything Eva shows that it’s not a usual thing

Born not made

[opal magnet]

Eva was an attempt at making a higher being but was far too fragile

[ionic basalt]

Well maybe the cult came as soon as citadel bugs came down to graymoor and forced the bugs to collect silk dregs. They might also be residing in the tricket and might be experimenting with wisps beforehand as said above. Their movement to burn all things silk might be them learning the secrets of whiteward(prob not) or just trying to rebel against the citadel
Anyway its just my theory just take it with salt

[dire lynx]

sorry, i should specify from worship

[opal magnet]

Pale king likely could beat GMS by doing basically what happened with radiance but then proceeding to beat the shit out of her

[frosty gate]

Absolutely unrelated but what do you guys think about Forgebugs being hired after the Pilgrimage started and before Architects were appointed

[dire lynx]

sounds right to me

[frosty gate]

The Citadel was probably already big back then and the Weavers were probably relaxing more by this point

I wish I could send a Pic of my Google sheet that's actually readable

[vivid kernel]

What is sk

[halcyon merlin]

silksong

[vivid kernel]

Can you explain silksongs very cool lore

5 sentences is max

[halcyon merlin]

uhh i don't know it all fully

[vivid kernel]

I thought you where a MatPat

[halcyon merlin]

best thing i can try to say is
god give random beings some of her power to make family, says they are her children and divine, which is false, then she for some reason i dont remember wants her powers back from the beings she gave power (the weavers aka hornet species)

then they run away to hallownest

then some of them went back to pharloom

then hornet comes and boom

hope i explained it well

[frosty gate]

Actually quick question, do we think Whispering Vaults was made during the Gilded Citadel or Stone Citadel

[ionic basalt]

Prob guilded

[halcyon merlin]

ah also

the weavers were putting her to sleep with her song

[ionic basalt]

But rhe scrolls should be from stone as well

[halcyon merlin]

which i think she doesn't like

[dire lynx]

the base may have been made during the stone age, expanded during its guilding

[ionic basalt]

A variation of her song? Or a completely different one

[frosty gate]

Took the words out of my mouth

They probably had the space, they just put the things in order when they got Gilded

[halcyon merlin]

oh wait actually idk what that song is exacrly

i think the weavers created it though

[frosty gate]

What song

[halcyon merlin]

that made gms sleep

[frosty gate]

The Choir was made during Stone tho, so it was Choir then Vaults

[dire lynx]

the song they put her to sleep with is different from the one the weavers sung to her before their rebellion

[opal magnet]

Big bug make creatures
Things dislike big bug
Big bug forces 1984 on creatures
Creatures hate big bug
Big bug trapped and sealed

[frosty gate]

Whichever probably

I think this makes sense

[foggy fractal]

the timeline must be a pain to construct

[ionic basalt]

Vaultkeepers as envoy? Can you briefly say where it says that? Or just an inference

[frosty gate]

Its absolute fucking horrendous

It's fun though

[frosty gate]

Yes, it's stated in the Vaultkeepers journal entry

!wiki Vaultkeepers

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Vaultkeeper
Not the correct result? Use !wiki page Vaultkeepers for a direct link or !wiki search Vaultkeepers for a list of all hits.

Hollow Knight Wiki

Vaultkeeper

Vaultkeepers are enemies in Hollow Knight: Silksong.

Health

70/Black-Threaded140

Drops

21
Rosaries dropped with Thief's Mark equipped 39 3-5
Shards dropped with Shard Pendant equipped 4-7

Damage Modifiers

1.1    1    0.8    0.8    0.8

Journal kills

10

Singing

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/File:Vaultkeeper_Sing.ogg

[frosty gate]

High caste bug, responsible for delivering sermons and leading prayer for those beyond the walls of the Whispering Vaults.

[ionic basalt]

Vaultkeepers, alongside Scrollreaders and Lampbearers, were first revealed in a blog post, where their silhouette was shown, and they were described as being in a "tough later game trio who, when in battle, work closely together, covering for each other’s weaknesses."[1] In the final build, these three enemies do not specifically work together, and thus do not cover for each other's weaknesses.
Lol

[frosty gate]

They served as priests as much they were keepers of lore

[frosty gate]

Fake as fuck

[frosty gate]

This was probably still true by the time of the Stone Citadel

[ionic basalt]

Pious isamor might be build a while back as well? But still after vaultkeepers

[foggy fractal]

everyone thought they were gonna be a boss trio due to that statement lmao 😭 only for them to be common enemies

[frosty gate]

Maybe a bit after the start of the Pilgrimage

I'm guessing it's during Stone Era that the Veiled bugs became a thing

The little ones at least

Oh shit I forgot to make a space for the loom thing

Although idk what's up with the Loom still

It was probably the Weavers

[foggy fractal]

in doubt, blame the weavers

[frosty gate]

I can't tell if this is Gilded or Stone

I damn you for this picture Pogseal

It looks like stone painted with gold

You know what? Fuck it, it has to be the Weavers, it's the symbol for the Citadel

[covert night]

where is this from

[frosty gate]

It's a picture of the background of the Cradle

[foggy fractal]

they didn't have the funds back then to get actual gold so they just slapped on gold paint and called it a day 😭

[muted lantern]

this is a lore related question, but i need someone to confirm, do laces ripostes prevent you from using cross stitch? every time i hit her parry, no matter how quickly i hit the button, i can't cross stitch her. if this is true for others and not just a skill issue, this could mean lace has sparred with phantom and knows how to counter the move.

[frosty gate]

I don't know where you got those assets but you're a life savior

IT WAS STONE ALL ALONG FUCK WEAVERS

[halcyon merlin]

i blame the weavers genes for why hornet is not lesbian

[frosty gate]

[sinful nimbus]

I can't do it either

[foggy fractal]

https://mega.nz/folder/nu5GjLxD#JB92f7G2YKa1ms9i6erftw
though efforts to organize everything seems to have stopped on this file, maybe the people who were working on it switched to another file somewhere else

[frosty gate]

I honestly have no idea I think you can't parry it because Laces parry is too fast hitting

Idk if that makes sense

[limpid summit]

How is her attack hitbox wise

Are they just not interacting

[muted lantern]

It seems like it directly pierces the cross stitch parry, even when i get it off and proc the sound effect. my best guess if not a bug is that shes learned to counter phantom, who probably baited out parries to try to parry the riposte

[limpid summit]

Idk that would be a very interesting lore tidbit

I like that

[frosty gate]

Oh if it does that it's a gameplay thing most like

[muted lantern]

it's timing doesnt seem any tighter than the minister riposte which i cross stitch often

[frosty gate]

You are parrying, yes, but Lace attacks so fast and constant that the animation for the cross stitch can't trigger properly so it gets interrupted

Most likely the case

I've seen stuff like that in other games

Now the Loom was stone

[foggy fractal]

🥀 the resemblence is uncanny

🥀

[frosty gate]

But wtf did they use the loom for

So early I mean

[halcyon merlin]

karrrrrrrrrrmelita

[frosty gate]

Unless Whiteward is older than I think it is

[dire lynx]

well, we know whiteward was around during the time of weavers...

[frosty gate]

Yeah, but it doesn't look like Stone right?

It looks Gilded

Too much machinery

[dire lynx]

the original halls of the citadel wouldve also been stone, same as the slab. conductors could easily have gone over with gilding

[frosty gate]

I mean yeah but the surgery equipment and all that doesn't look like Stone

[muted lantern]

even with laces more generous timing on the diagonal riposte it still seems to pierce

[frosty gate]

Even the Silk Syphon room, which is supposedly Weaver tech, looks Gilded

[dire lynx]

gilding can be done after the fact

[frosty gate]

I mean the Syphon is done in metal

[foggy fractal]

hey don't know if this is the most consistent thing, but do void tendrils have 4 eyes most of the time

[dire lynx]

ok?

the citadel was made of stone to be humble, not because weavers didnt work with metal

[frosty gate]

I don't think this was done after

[dire lynx]

look at any weavenest please

[frosty gate]

True, the door to the Nests is metal right?

[dire lynx]

yes, and the floors, and evas iron lung, and the light/mining robots, and the architects, and the weird metal pipes attached to evas iron lung

the plating of gold/rare metal is the hallmark of conductors, not the inherent use of metal itself

see also silkshot for example

[frosty gate]

It would make sense that Weavers just tried to keep things cheap I guess

Well even Isamor is Metal

[dire lynx]

stone building was used to maintain the specific religious image the weavers wanted to maintain. one of simplicity and humbleness (also cheaper)

[frosty gate]

I still think a lot of Whiteward looks too advanced tho

Probably renovated?

[dire lynx]

yes, ive looked at some images. some areas look alot more "modern citadel" than others

[muted lantern]

Wait wait, you can cross stitch her diagonal riposte, just very tight timing and positioning, mystery solved.

sad, that would have been a neat lore tidbit

[dire lynx]

the area the unravelled is fought in looks to be ungilded stone, possibly what most whiteward looked like originally, compared to some of the other areas

[muted lantern]

YOU CAN DO HER HORIZONTAL RIPOSTE TOO? my life is a lie

[opal magnet]

So is the sky

[dire lynx]

i do think most the silver metals were part of the original construction though, considering the weavenests

...typical weavers creating/causing everything terrible ever

[opal magnet]

Didn't they invent laser guns though

[dire lynx]

that only they can use... greedy weavers dont share whats cool

[opal magnet]

If the weavers survived long enough they could have improved their lamps to the point of being botw guardians (the mountain)

GMS when robot spider army with lasers:

[trail wagon]

ahahahahhahhahahaahaha

[opal magnet]

GMS vs Minigun
What wins?

Bcs based off the sheer power of the silkshot variations, a minigun does.

[sinful nimbus]

Murglin:

The most based Weaver

[opal magnet]

Thats not full auto
This is full auto

[sinful nimbus]

Didn't run away like a coward, didn't seal GMS with mass slavery, didn't try and study the dark arts, she just created a gun

That and whatever Karm was planning

[opal magnet]

Behold, the power of an-
The 14 mm caliber gun:

I just had an idea for the city of steel

[opal magnet]

(Guns, everyone there has guns)

And yes, you can parry the bullets with precise timing bcs rule of cool

[muted lantern]

gms loses a 1v1 to a girl with a tapeworm

[opal magnet]

Full power GMs
Not freshly woken up

[muted lantern]

well we would have to wait for godmaster to know

[opal magnet]

I do not think GMS can survive what is effectively a full auto cannon

[foggy fractal]

she was planning anything ??

😭

[sinful nimbus]

TRUE

Karm started her own Weavenest like a day before Atla figured it out 🥀

Oh its Karn

Wtv

[craggy smelt]

crust king karn

[opal magnet]

Crustsinger Kroal the Kreat

[craggy smelt]

"Karn, how is Sharpdart going to help seal the Grand Mother-" "SHARPDART~!"

[sinful nimbus]

Is Sharpdart even hers though

[craggy smelt]

if not, then there was literally nothing in that weavenest

[opal magnet]

I mean
If they're dead you don't need to seal em

[sinful nimbus]

I mean I guess

[craggy smelt]

and some other weaver just chose it to die in

[sinful nimbus]

But the Weaver shrine is part of the Citadel's plan so Karn must've just revisited her Weavenest later or whatever

[craggy smelt]

she had just gotten thing set up and then the worm migration started

"Well, guess I'll just die."

[opal magnet]

Imagine if the weavers tried to weaponize lifeblood

They might have succeeded at killing GMS

[craggy smelt]

fingers crossed for a new weavenest off in barloom bay/lifeblood spire area

[opal magnet]

sure it'd make a bigger and worse issue
But it would down GMS

[craggy smelt]

would it? I don't know...

pale beings don't seem as susceptible to it as others

instead you got a Plasmified Silk fight on your hands where she regenerates

[opal magnet]

Plasmium takes over mind

So
You'd create a plasmium higher being

As they get overwritten

[craggy smelt]

Plasmified Haunting

I mean, I'm all for it obviously

[opal magnet]

So yes GMS died
Just, there's now a plasmium higher being.
Thus, bigger issue

[opal magnet]

Aka
Radiance on steroids

[craggy smelt]

* everybody do plasmium *

[opal magnet]

And it has regen

[craggy smelt]

hrmm, what if TC tweak the Godhome model

instead of just 3 tiers for health and damage

they also put in a whole bunch of additional modifiers for boss fights

Black-Threading

Plasmium Regeneration

hmm, what else...

[opal magnet]

Muck maggot on hit

[craggy smelt]

yeees, muck maggots

[opal magnet]

9.5 mask attack.

(That one GMS attack, which mirrors the old heart kills.)

[muted lantern]

anyone have any thoughts on the meaning behind the field of white roses?

[foggy fractal]

hype and aura moment for Lace and Hornet

[muted lantern]

on a cursory google search, white roses seem to represent purity and innocence, I think it's meant to symbolize what gms wanted lace to be, and lace shedding blood and attempting to slay hornet in that field is kind of a repudiation of that notion.

[foggy fractal]

what do we think is the significane of void tendrils having 4 eyes

hmmmm void given focus also has 4 eyes on each side... coincidence ?? I think not.

somethings at play here.

[muted lantern]

I don't really think thats comprable, i think the flowers are fairly intentional symbolism. especially considering how out of place they are

[foggy fractal]

yeah I'm just saying shit lmao !

[muted lantern]

oh my bad, i assumed u were trying to do a "the curtains were blue" thing

[craggy smelt]

I bet the flowers are made of silk

woven into blooms

[foggy fractal]

everythings made of silk nowadays 😔

[craggy smelt]

something Lace did in her free time

maybe if she felt lonely

[muted lantern]

they used to be called something fly fields iirc

it would have been so cool if the flowers were secretly silkflies that took form when disturbed

also is taht more flowers on the background pipe?

[foggy fractal]

yes

[opal magnet]

You can visit the light above in act 3
Showing its just more flies
And representing how GMS doesn't really care, despite it seeming like she's looking down

She cares about lace the idea

She does not care about lace the living being

She is willing to sacrifice everything for her idea of lace
But won't change how she acts for who lace actually is

[foggy fractal]

I wonder why theres so many of those faces in that one lava rise section, these things give me the heebie-jeebies ngl

[opal magnet]

Skulls for the skull cave

Worms for the wormways

Bilewater

Fleas for fleatopia

[edgy nebula]

these all bare resemblance to the skull that you blast through from the witch crest room to the marrow, i wonder if there's any lore significance

[muted lantern]

there they are, evil skeleton!

[foggy fractal]

😱

[dense ridge]

Something about them makes me feel they may be related to the Ancient Civilization

In the lava rise section they do get more frequent the further down you go

They also just look like that

[scenic shuttle]

Scary skulls it’s kinda like the birthplace in that way

[muted lantern]

is my discord bugged or is this a blank image

[craggy smelt]

hrm

[scenic shuttle]

I don’t see anything either

Still nothing

[muted lantern]

bros posting the void

[craggy smelt]

bugged, I guess, not copy/pasting

[scenic shuttle]

Lemme see if I can download and see it

[craggy smelt]

take my word for it, they look a bit like shade cloak guy

just a smidge

[scenic shuttle]

Still blank

Weird

[muted lantern]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/hollowknight/images/4/4f/Screenshot_HK_Abyss_07.png/revision/latest?cb=20190213070502

this guy?

[craggy smelt]

heeey

[muted lantern]

he's called chade beast by the wiki, higher being by the files i think

[craggy smelt]

chad beast

[scenic shuttle]

Real

[craggy smelt]

acquired the chad cloak

[muted lantern]

so uh, is it just these guys body shape or do all bugs have internal skeletons

[scenic shuttle]

This guy especially looks similar

[muted lantern]

widow does have a spine ig

[craggy smelt]

either those are skeletal bones (awesome) or their arms just look like that normally (also awesome)

[muted lantern]

Speaking of which since the pins are in widows spine and weavers lack a regular thorax i imagine their spinnerets are on their back

[scenic shuttle]

Yes I would assume that’s why the pins are there

[craggy smelt]

the silk comes out of the arm pits

like spider-man's used to

[scenic shuttle]

I don’t think that’s it…

Idk why

[muted lantern]

is... is that even true????

I don't read enough comics clearly

[scenic shuttle]

Real

[muted lantern]

I remember an artist made comics where hornet was friends with spiderman

[craggy smelt]

he used to have those arm pit webs
and when Doctor Doom or something blasted through them he'd be all 'my webs!'

[scenic shuttle]

And a bunch of other hollow knight character

Also yall tc did say at some point that hornet throws her needle 30 yards

[barren beacon]

Is respawn meachanic Canon

[scenic shuttle]

No

[craggy smelt]

oh nooo...

[scenic shuttle]

16 ft goth mommy hornet is real

[craggy smelt]

yeah, her very first appearance in the original kickstarter

used to this day to try and prove the size of the bugs

[muted lantern]

unlikely, theres some theories about it but they all have their own problems, people says stuff like they have wyrm foresight which is a neat idea but theres a number of issues.

[muted lantern]

.... what height would that make shakra

[barren beacon]

Not confirmed?

[scenic shuttle]

Now think about radiance

[barren beacon]

Alr

[muted lantern]

very little in the game implies the respawn is canon, and there were some changes in the first game that removed text that implied it, so it seems to not be canon.

[barren beacon]

Is it confirmed not canon?

[muted lantern]

no

[scenic shuttle]

They hardly ever confirm anything

[barren beacon]

Damn

[muted lantern]

its technically possible, theres just discrepancies

[barren beacon]

I guess I'll have to make arguments to prove why it's not

[scenic shuttle]

Go right ahead

[barren beacon]

Thanks SS lore

[scenic shuttle]

Damn

[muted lantern]

lol

[edgy nebula]

we know insects have bones in this universe

[scenic shuttle]

At least some do

[edgy nebula]

hornet says as much in skull tyrant's journal entry and spear skarrs wear tarmite skulls

[muted lantern]

bro imagine having an endo skeleton and exoskeleton, thats gotta be fucking uncomfortable.

[scenic shuttle]

Hornet seems to have an exoskeleton and her shell (head)

[scenic shuttle]

They are biologically incompatible

[muted lantern]

techinically, the bones and spines referred to, could just be the in universe terms for exoskeletons.

[scenic shuttle]

True

[muted lantern]

also i was yesterday years old when i realized clawmaidens were called that because claw is a standin for hand in the text, claw mirror and such. and they are just called handmaidens

[edgy nebula]

thing is we know exoskeletons exist too, many bugs use shell tools

[scenic shuttle]

And hornet has an exoskeleton and shell

[edgy nebula]

also this is a world of bugs, exoskeletons are kinda implied

[scenic shuttle]

Well duh

[edgy nebula]

exoskeleton and shell is interchangeable

[scenic shuttle]

Not exactly because hornets shell is specifically her head

Now the real question is, is hornets horns where her silk is stored?

Because of the silk heart descriptions

[edgy nebula]

im pretty sure her entire body is shelled

[edgy nebula]

maybe maybe not, because of widow we can assume silk is made/stored in the spine

hornet might be different though

[scenic shuttle]

For full weavers at least

Yeah

[scenic shuttle]

By shell I mean her mask

[muted lantern]

Okay, new topic, how many silkflies in second sentinel, most cogworks have one, clappers have 2, and choruses have a lot. It seems the amount is based on how many are needed for the constructs size. Second sentinel, however, is characterized as having more sentience than the others, I imagine more silkflies would contribute to that, since they are souls in reduced forms I imagine more are needed to constitute a full person. Maybe they have more flies in them than their size would require? How many do you think they need?

[scenic shuttle]

Only one because of the twelfth architect

[edgy nebula]

i feel like second sentinel just has one

yeah

[muted lantern]

Twelfth architect only has one?

[scenic shuttle]

Who also only had one and is likely run using a cogworl heart

[scenic shuttle]

When she dies there is one on her head

[muted lantern]

Does anyone have a picture of her corpse? Is the head broken and only one remaining, or was there only ever one?

[scenic shuttle]

Only ever one and her body is in perfect articulation

[muted lantern]

Or their, I suppose we aren't ever given a gender

[scenic shuttle]

Yeah

[muted lantern]

Is that on top of their head? Not really inside it.

[scenic shuttle]

Yeah

She’s dead

It left

[edgy nebula]

cant beleive she's sleeping on the job

so unprofessional

[muted lantern]

I mean, that doesn't really say there was only ever one fly, the head is busted open, and there is one that is lingering.

Could have been more.

[scenic shuttle]

The head is not busted open

It’s just darkened

[edgy nebula]

howd the silkfly get out then

[scenic shuttle]

Could have flown out one of the eyes

[edgy nebula]

we have nothing to indicate the eyes are hollow/open

[scenic shuttle]

They glow with light from the silk fly

[edgy nebula]

yeah they could just be glass

[craggy smelt]

her core piece or whatever fell out also, there's some kind of open spot in her body

[scenic shuttle]

I don’t think a silk fly can break glass

[muted lantern]

So again, doesn't really indicate there was only ever one fly

[edgy nebula]

yeah so howd they escape

[scenic shuttle]

It’s clearly implied to be just one

[edgy nebula]

yeah her pristine core fell out

[scenic shuttle]

Unlike fourth chorus

[edgy nebula]

i wonder why the uh

[scenic shuttle]

Where there was 100s

[edgy nebula]

cogwork clappers have a pristine core too

[muted lantern]

It looks like the faceplate was removed, maybe the architect took its own face off to let their flies free?

Unburdening themselves of the shackle of their task?

[craggy smelt]

crawled out of her core hole

[scenic shuttle]

Wild

[edgy nebula]

fair enough

[muted lantern]

If there's only one fly in secsen, what makes it different, more conscious, it's said to be an intentional part of its design?

[scenic shuttle]

“Core hole”

[scenic shuttle]

It holds the personality of the bug it once was

Like dream essence

[muted lantern]

I mean does it? We aren't really given any indication of that unlike architect

[foggy fractal]

yeah on top of their head
also back on second sentinel, its implied to be just one in their body
we see 4 surrounding them when they are in jar unactiavted iirc ? though it has to be on the first visit ? (need confirmation), as well as 4 surrounding them again just before the fight
these 4 are implied to be the other sentinels

[scenic shuttle]

The silk snare in white ward

[muted lantern]

Ooh now that's a really good catch, I'm convinced.

[scenic shuttle]

There is also the big giant device in white ward that turns weak bugs into silk flies

[muted lantern]

Also omg the sentinels are all still alive as flies??? They could be repaired!!!!!!

We see clappers get fixed

[scenic shuttle]

Sadly no more cogwork hearts

They need the cogwork hearts because of how advanced they are

[muted lantern]

Hornet could make one, given time

She has the architects memory stores

And the raw materials

[scenic shuttle]

Dawg what no she doesn’t

The architect has no clue how to make one

It forgot

It doesn’t even remember how to make its successor

[foggy fractal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f81rKsljZ4M ok its just 3 upon the first visit in the jar, it is definitely 4 though in their fight

[muted lantern]

Do you have the line where it says that, I don't recall that.

[scenic shuttle]

Bringing the cogwork heart to her or the pieces I don’t really remember well

[craggy smelt]

Hornet: What will follow if you pass? Would another take your place?
One cannot. The skill to construct an Architect... That was taken by t-t-time. I am the last-final.

[scenic shuttle]

Yeah that

Thanks

[muted lantern]

That's referring to the architects... Not the sentinels

[foggy fractal]

That heart is an inspired form, conceived by the first of my line for a knight of cog and blade.
In it, I see my predecessor's talent, immense, now lost-forgotten. I could never create-copy a work s-s-so fine.

[muted lantern]

There we are, fair enough

[scenic shuttle]

It was a different line but it was another thing I mentioned

Really sad she has to die

[craggy smelt]

oh yeah, I misread

[muted lantern]

Its nice regardless, to think the flies of the other sentinels linger

[craggy smelt]

andy found the proper quote

[scenic shuttle]

They might have been trapped in that room because the wall to get in there is blocked off till the second sentinal busts through it

[muted lantern]

I like to think the sentinels could be repaired, also we don't even see their hearts missing, they could have just been destroyed in a typical way, and the hearts could be salvageable

[scenic shuttle]

Unlikely because no-one knows how to repair them

[foggy fractal]

you could make the case that someone good enough could be able to figure things out and repair things sometime in the future
but of course that's pure speculation

[scenic shuttle]

Yeah but who’s that good?

[foggy fractal]

that's why I said pure speculation

[scenic shuttle]

Yeah true

[dense ridge]

lol

[eager spire]

pinstresses could help i say

after all were they not designed after them

[scenic shuttle]

To recreate a cogwork heart when she knows nothing about cogwork shit? Only one person could ever dream to maybe be able to and that’s forge daughter

[eager spire]

arent the hearts fine tho ( i have not went to the room in a while)

[scenic shuttle]

We know not

[eager spire]

wait isnt hornet the obvious answer

[scenic shuttle]

And we don’t know how exactly they operate

[eager spire]

she did make cogflies

[scenic shuttle]

She made them with a very clear design of them

[eager spire]

hmm fair

[scenic shuttle]

Forge daughter is the only possible option that could work

[eager spire]

flix the fixer 💀

[muted lantern]

cogflies are a lot less advanced

[silk dirge]

wait a moment

is that pilby

or is it a random pilgrim who looks similar

[visual glacier]

Random pilgrim

That guy can be there while Pilby is somewhere else

[craggy smelt]

pray for pilby

[muted lantern]

can't wait for the lost pilby fight in the dlc

[limpid summit]

I hope he gets like a hat or some kind of different colored horn

[muted lantern]

goth pilby

[limpid summit]

It’s hard to keep track of the pilgrims

[silk dirge]

pilgrim preacher fight

the like one weird ass unique pilgrim npc

hey hes got cat ears

[last elm]

Okay so someone dm me like the lore because I’ve done a lot yet I’m so confused

All I currently know (I think) is:
GMS wanted to create a powerful kingdom and a very powerful child, she tried to create people like Lace, Phantom and Eva but some of them failed then she got angry and went rampant with power thus starting the haunting and they needed someone to stop them so they brought Hornet

[bleak ridge]

Some mistakes here
Gms originally evolved regular bugs to become what we know as weavers but eventually a certain weaver (first sinner) found out that they weren't the biological children of gms and rebelled against her and sealed her

[last elm]

Hm alright

But if I may ask what does Hallownest have to do with this? A lot of the NPCs know who the Wyrm is and it is mentioned a few times

[bleak ridge]

While the weavers were in pharloom they created a society and community known as the citadel and set up multiple cast systems and sub groups (conducters, under workers, architects and etc)

[bleak ridge]

Wyrms don't specifically refer to PK as wyrms are a specific species, also the NPC's who usually know of wyrms are more "aware" of the world (shamans, mask maker, Mr mushroom)

Anyways

[last elm]

Ohh well didn’t the bell hermit mention him?

[bleak ridge]

That's a snail shaman

[last elm]

Oh fr? Wait I didn’t notice that

I only knew the like guy who shouted hey at me in the shrine

And I guess later on the dude that woke me up

[bleak ridge]

There's 4 shamans in the game, 3 of which are alive

[last elm]

Yeah I knew that

Groal ate one or smth

That’s why we had to get it for silk and soul

[bleak ridge]

Chapel Maid, Bell Hermit, Caretaker and the dead shaman in Bile haven

[last elm]

I did not expect that fatass frog to pull out the HK spirit move 🙏

[bleak ridge]

It makes sense considering he consumed a snail shamans power or something

[last elm]

Yup I didn’t know that when I fought him

[heavy gyro]

The weavers sealed gms before they found out about their true origins

[dreamy onyx]

When did he name the Pale King?

[dreamy onyx]

I don't think it's specified, they could've known their origins and that's part of why they sealed her

[lean temple]

Widow says "child of Wyrm and Weaver" but Hornet's lineage could be known by the Weavers of Pharloom in general

[whole holly]

maybe since she is special, she could be know across weaver diaspora and community

so sad that Weavers of Hallownest left for their old home just to be nowhere to be seen, are they dead?

[lean temple]

Likely

[whole holly]

yeah

[lean temple]

Came back to the Haunting

[lean temple]

Possible. Ig they could've seen her as hitting the jackpot on Weaver kids

[whole holly]

i mean Wyrm is special lineage, plus for her Silk and Soul are intertwined, she is sensed strong with Silk too, i wish she inherited Focus ability, outside healing context, because she does not interact with it, it seems Bind and Focus ability are similar

[lean temple]

Well silk and soul are intertwined for all Weavers

But yes she is expecially powerful because of her lineage

[whole holly]

i wonder if Soul Abilities are common for Wyrms , because Kingsoul Charm and general Soul theme surrounding White Palace, while soul sanctum had to extract soul from bugs, Pale King seemingly didn't need to do that

[lean temple]

Hornet: No certainty, but I've a strong suspicion...
They hunt me for my nature. For the Silk produced within my shell.
Ahh ha! Truth, no doubt! In Pharloom, yours is a rare skill, prized beyond measure, to channel one's soul within a thread. Soul and Silk inseparably linked.
It is a skill almost lost from Pharloom. Those old Weavers shared it, but they're long dead now.

It's unknown how much they could shape soul outside Silk, as in pure soul

[whole holly]

yeah, Hornet and Weavers can produce Silk , Weavers are gone seemingly

[stray fog]

Gms can sense weaver descendants in other kingdoms, so she could have also sensed hornet's heritage

[whole holly]

i mean they understood Soul Imprints and named it crests so that is something although they likely weren't multi-natured like hornet

[lean temple]

Yes but point is how Widow learned it, unless she learned from the GMS controlled Citadel

[stray fog]

Widow would be in cahoots with the citadel

Maybe

[lean temple]

I mean they certainly were not. Eva detects them as one strain

[stray fog]

Are there any other characters in pharloom who know that hornet is a half wyrm?

[lean temple]

Mask Maker ig

[stray fog]

Zi

[lean temple]

Zi too yea

[stray fog]

Might be because of the sight

[lean temple]

Almost certainly is

[stray fog]

Does the hallownest mask maker recognize who the knight is?

[lean temple]

Yes

"Such remarkable contrast the Wyrm conceived"

I don't remember if the Shamans say Hornet's nature explicitly or just say Old One

I mean they know she's pale. I don't remember them saying Wyrm tho

Although they could know and just didn't say it directly. Cardinius and 12th Architect know Hornet is part Weaver but I don't think they can make out the other natures

[frosty gate]

You know what, I think I can agree with this, but I still think the Machinery had to be made by Architects and the metalwork done by Forgebugs. Meaning that Whiteward probably started after those two were settled and while the Weavers were still up and running the Citadel.

This does make me wonder about Isamor and when this would locate him. I think maybe the Forgebugs came a lot earlier than I think

All in all, its great help for the Timeline

[frosty gate]

Mainly because yes, Weavers seem to have worked with Metal, but their metalwork looks different from the one done in Whiteward

And the machinery is an Architect thing, too many cogs

I think the only thing Weavers could've made with cogs was probably the Architects themselves

And even then, for that you would need the Forgebugs

So many things were happening as the pilgrims came to the Citadel and while it was being built

[dry compass]

Why was hornet brought to Pharloom even though the citadel collapsed

As we know from the opening intro of Silksong we know hornet was brought to pharloom by GMS we already know the lore thing.

But when hornet arrives to the Citadel in act 2 its already collapsed dead bugs only alive by the haunting.

So how has hornet brought to Pharloom even though the citadel collapsed

Or i could be really stupid and it collapsed sometime in Act 1

[heavy gyro]

The citadel collapsed because of gms

[ionic basalt]

Brought to pharloom to fuel gms

Maybe

[heavy gyro]

GMS is controlling the haunted bugs and tries to bring hornet to herself

[heavy gyro]

Those bugs are controlled by gms

[bleak ridge]

It's just revenge

Gms is pissy about the fact that the weavers rebelled against her and is trying to hunt down every single one in the world

[heavy gyro]

Its also so she can bind their silk

Because if it was just for revenge she wouldn't leave hornet alive in a cage

[frosty gate]

It's both

[lean temple]

She also wants Hornet to see her wake, for some reason

[broken whale]

Is sk before or after hollow knight

[fresh badger]

After

[broken whale]

Before i think right?

Oh

Alright

[fresh badger]

Hornet's abilities from hk got sealed by the runes during her kidnapping

[broken whale]

Why did she get kidnapped aside from being a wyrm thingy

[fresh badger]

Due to being a part weaver

Theres choir commands for kidnapping her, and in the Cradle for kidnapping other part weavers

[broken whale]

Oke thanks

[frosty gate]

I would love more lore on the Bellways honestly

Bellways has so little lore that, in a Timeline, it could've been made anywhere between Weavers hiring Forgebugs and before the Conductors fucked up

[whole holly]

does anyone find it interesting Radiance wanted to eradicate life and Grandmother wanted servitude and loyalty but they succeeded in each others mission, Radiance made more effective hivemind and GMS destroyed life when she was in void

[frosty gate]

Rad never wanted to destroy life iirc

It was all a side effect

[whole holly]

really? i though it was because she was angry

revenge against Pale King worshippers

[frosty gate]

She was

I mena she was angry but what she wanted was to not be forgotten

So she forced everyone to remember her through the Infection

[stray fog]

I thought they were naturally made
The citadel dumped a lot of bells
Then bell beasts started using those as their habitats, and made tunnels

(Im pulling this out of my ass)

[frosty gate]

I wanna believe that, but the but the tunnels are properly constructed

You have Bellways station

[stray fog]

True

[frosty gate]

Meaning that the Citadel used them for transportation

[stray fog]

Bellways are artificial

[frosty gate]

Or maybe the Stations are and the tunnels aren't?

[stray fog]

That possibility makes less sense

[frosty gate]

Yeah

[stray fog]

If I had to guess, the first possibility is more likely

[frosty gate]

I'm gonna pull this out my ass

And use the ol reliable

It was probably Weavers

I have no good explanation for why does BB have a Silk Heart

[stray fog]

Were bells a part of the weaver citadel

Or the conductor citadel

There's the cut content about bell shrines weakening gms

But its cut content

[frosty gate]

The Bells started during Weavers most likely

They made the Shrine Bells after all

Atla did at least

[whole holly]

she and GMS are more similar than i though

[stray fog]

The sheer amount of bells there would have required many generations of pilgrims

So I think its after the Weavers

[frosty gate]

Wouldn't it make more sense that they made bells since the Weavers so that's why there's so much?

Pilgrimage started during Weavers anyway

[stray fog]

Did the bellways always have bells

Or was it just normal tunnels

If its the first possibility, then after Weavers

[frosty gate]

I have no answer on neither of those

[stray fog]

Second possibility = during Weavers

[frosty gate]

Bellways are just

There

We get no clues on how long theyve been there

[stray fog]

Yeah but the amount of bells composing the bell ways would require a long time to gather naturally through littering

[frosty gate]

That's what I'm trying to say, if it's such a long time, it makes sense that it started with the Pilgrimage while Weavers were in power

[stray fog]

If the bellways always had bells, then that means they were made after the shit ton of bells were deposited
So after Weavers

And vice versa

[whole holly]

Weavers and Moths kinda parallels each other, but i wish we knew as much about moths as we do about weavers

[frosty gate]

Ok wait, I'm not phrasing this correctly

Or rather I think I didn't explain the point

[frosty gate]

My point is the Bell making, not the Bellways

[stray fog]

Oh

Yeah bell making started during the Weavers

Im not contesting that

[frosty gate]

The Bellways is likely to be made over time

[stray fog]

I was talking about the bellways

[frosty gate]

I don't think it was always bell tunnels

[ionic basalt]

Maybe discarded bells?

[stray fog]

That's what I think

[frosty gate]

Just what I was gonna say

By Pilgrims during a long time

After the Forgebugs were hired so

Probably first quarter of Pilgrimage era?

[stray fog]

It makes more sense that they were normal tunnels and then they got covered with bells

Instead of the citadel digging through a huge mass of bells, and using that as a transport system

[frosty gate]

Maybe the Bellways were like the Stags before?

We just don't get proof of anything

Honestly, we don't even know if BB is actually a transport

Hornet uses her as Transport yes

But like

It's a beast

It doesn't have a saddle

That's going to take a while to properly be placed, I'll keep it around the end of the Pilgrimage era

Well, not the end end, but near when the Conductors took power maybe

There's no real end to the Pilgrimage

[stray fog]

There are stations, so there must have been a transport system

Crazy theory: bell eaters were the original transport

[frosty gate]

Yes definitely

[stray fog]

Then it makes sense if the bellways were always bell covered

[frosty gate]

Actually wait a fucking second

Hornet doesn't even call BB a way of transport

Like she doesn't say that BB was used as the transport

It's just a big bug that lives in the tunnels

How did these dudes move around

!wiki Bell Beast

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Bell_Beast

Hollow Knight Wiki

Bell Beast

The Bell Beast is a main boss and NPC in Hollow Knight: Silksong. Her liberation allows Hornet to use her as transport across Pharloom.

Location

The Marrow, Bellways

​

Combat Values

Health

150

Damage Modifiers

1    1    1    1    1

Reward

Fast travel via Bellways
Silk Heart

Journal Kills

1

​

Miscellaneous

Gender

Female

Theme

Bell Beast

Singing

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/File:Bell_Beast_Sing.ogg

[stray fog]

Over time, as the citadel deteriorated, less people used the bell eater transport system
Bell eater population reduced
No one ate the excess bells anymore
Bellways became bell covered

New headcanon discovered

[whole holly]

i wish for more Radiance and Silk ship fanarts

[frosty gate]

You know Dhruv, maybe not a transport, but it would made sense if they used the Bell Eaters to make the tunnels

[ionic basalt]

The world is bells theory

[frosty gate]

And then used something else for transport

[stray fog]

"man how are we going to dig these tunnels"
Convenient bell eating bug:

[frosty gate]

Maybe the Bellways were originally just a Bell disposal thing?

[ionic basalt]

Well they disposed from bone bottom to putrified ducts so seems to be a large large area

[stray fog]

Makes sense that they only littered outside the citadel

[whole holly]

guys i have theory, what if reason all weavers are female is because GMS turned all Pharlids into Female, meaning male pharlids became transgender weavers

[stray fog]

Keep the holy place clean

[frosty gate]

It really is a lot of bells

[halcyon merlin]

silksong is woke???

im leaving!!!!

[frosty gate]

There's is a Bellway inside though. Kinda isolated Oi guess?

[stray fog]

Gotta have one access point

[whole holly]

Silksong was to keep GMS asleep not woken

wokesong

[ionic basalt]

We woke her

[frosty gate]

True

That said, bells all the way to the Putrid Ducts?

[stray fog]

They made up the religion, so might as well bend the rules to allow one place to litter bells

For convenience

[frosty gate]

True

Well, hopefully we do get more info on Bellways later

[stray fog]

There was a surprising amount of lore to discuss here

[frosty gate]

To have a proper lore and not a bunch of speculation

[ionic basalt]

The world is bells theory

Dig deep enough

[frosty gate]

A lot of it was speculation to be honest

[stray fog]

Yes

[whole holly]

why do gods love sleeping, like Unn and GMS wake up, this is not the time

[stray fog]

Gms didn't sleep voluntarily

Lol

[frosty gate]

I'm gonna put a pin on the Bellways for now

[whole holly]

do yall think Unn should have started Unnfection before infection as preemptive strike

[ionic basalt]

Heavy weather type sht

[frosty gate]

You guys think Isamor was made by Architects?

[whole holly]

Greenpath has right to defend itslf

[frosty gate]

Although I feel like it doesn't make sense

First Architect made sophisticated shit

[whole holly]

it is meant to be somewhat crackpot theory and also kinda funny

let's rank our favorite HBs guys, rank by lore importance and personal preference

[stray fog]

1. The shade lord

[whole holly]

my fav 1. Unn(she created big part of what became hallownest region) 2.White Lady(seemingly somewhat innocent) 3. PK(he had no choice, he wanted best for his kingdom) 4. Void Entity(stopped infection) 5. Nightmare Heart(cool) 6.GMS(at least she loves her daughter) 7.Radiance(why did she even)

[stray fog]

1. The shade lord
2. The pale king
3. Nightmare heart
4. White lady
5. Gms
6. Unn
7. The radiance

[ionic basalt]

Sorry whats unn lore again? Other than the green and stuff

[stray fog]

She made greenpath by dreaming

[stray fog]

The greenpath regions

4 regions

[whole holly]

what is with unn at bottom, i get that i said lore importance but still, personal preference could have been factor too, unless you like her less than radiance

[stray fog]

I like her more than the radiance, but unn never does anything tbh

[whole holly]

i thought it was Greenpath, Queen's Gardens and Fog Canyon, what is fourth

[whole holly]

oh, you right

[stray fog]

Fungal wastes

I might be wrong about the wastes

[whole holly]

okay, how did you come to that conclusion?

[fresh badger]

Nah ur right, moss chapel

[stray fog]

No idea
I just remember it from when I first dived into hk lore years ago

So I might be misremembering

[whole holly]

when is Unn's cooler cousin Enn gonna show up to Pharloom to tell us that she created every green moss from leaves, and be Old heart of region

i am replaying the game in steel soul mode , shaka refers it as mosslands

[stray fog]

Im going to rank up unn

Shes chill

[stray grove]

PK > Unn > LoS >>> NMH > WL > Rad > GMS

PK is the best character TC has ever written and it’s not particularly close

[fresh badger]

Mosslands is rlly interesting bc moss druid seems to be creating a new old heart from the mossberries

And references the other old hearts (karak, shellwood, far fields)

[stray grove]

Moss Druid is the only mention of them literally anywhere other than act 3 btw 🥀

It’s interesting in a vacuum but it doesn’t stop the old hearts lore from feeling like a jumbled mess of rewrites completely divorced from the greater narrative

[fresh badger]

😭 TC realized they needed a reason for those areas to not just be sandy wastes

I dont like Khann at all

Like tablets refer to him as just being one in a long line of crust kings? But he has the power sustaining the coral crust?

And nyleth drops a whole bunch of seed related stuff thats never explained

Seth thinks about sacred seeds, nyleth thinks about wandering seeds, nyleth sowed the first seed, nyleths creations think about seeds

[ionic basalt]

Whos los bruh

I forgot

[fresh badger]

Lord of Shades

[random harbor]

Dream Nail: The Abyss - Shade Beast - "...Lord of Shades..."

...Lord of Shades...

@mushspore used /dream-nail area: The Abyss name: Shade Beast - "...Lord of Shades..."

[ionic basalt]

Oh

Ic

[edgy nebula]

why is this bad in your eyes? /gen

i think it's cool and adds some lore to karak even if it is irrelevant

[fresh badger]

It just doesnt logic in my head

The old hearts are the source of these lush environments and iirc their power actually isnt passed down so how is Khann the source of the coral when he's just one in a long line of crust kings

[spark valve]

the power is passed down and they aren't really the origin of the environments

Bell Hermit: Pharloom was not born of that monarch, Old One. Power existed in these lands even before she bound them beneath her.
Bell Hermit: Grnk. Seek the old hearts of our kingdom and the last successors to bear their strength.

[edgy nebula]

yeah, they influence and protect the flora but the environments can flourish without them, as said by hornet to gilly after she kills an old woman

[spark valve]

I mean no that's not what happens with karm

with karm the environment is just gonna die, hornet is saying something else can come after

[edgy nebula]

ahh my bad

[spark valve]

they inherit a power that sustains the region but that power isn't the thing that creates the region it's something that like generates later

like moss druid trying to become a heart, the moss area does already exist it's just about where the power is or some shit

[lean temple]

I was trying to note down all the different sins and their numbers, but I noticed "the Fourth" seems to denote two sins? Or the sinner became sick after idk.

"Penitent, Second of the Fourth.
Guilty of the sin of dissonance.

Penitent, Fourth of the Fourth.
Guilty of the sins of infirmity, sickness."

[stray grove]

One is second of the fourth the other is fourth of the fourth

[lean temple]

Yes but I thought the first one denotes the number of the sinner and the second the number of the sin

Unless I'm misreading what these numbers mean. Because FS is the "First of the First" which makes sense "the first to commit the First Sin"

[stray grove]

The first number denotes the number of the sinner and the second number denotes their generation (x children)

[hazy adder]

whats that huge skeleton in far fields?

[stray grove]

It’s an ancient bug skeleton

[lean temple]

How does that make sense with "twelfth of the first"

[hazy adder]

isnt it a little too big?

[stray grove]

Well that’s in reference to the first children

Widow is the twelfth of the first

She isn’t guilty of the first sin

Because under that reading the first sin is apostasy

[lean temple]

Well the only other sin not granted absolution is apostasy

And idk how we concluded Widow is that sinner btw

[stray grove]

Of the first is only otherwise used for FS and first children is the term used to describe the Weavers so everything else should be formed under that understanding
Absolution not granted means this sinner isn’t dead unlike every other
Casting is in reference to widow’s punishment, she has metal inserted into her

[stray grove]

And the twelfth of the first’s sin is unnamed

And the punishment is also different

[frosty gate]

I wonder if the power comes with a story of how their kingdom got fucked up by a Pale Bitch

[stray grove]

So irrespective of who that actually is it clearly isn’t denoting the same exact sin

[frosty gate]

Because the Old Hearts, despite being the "sucessors" implying they aren't the OG monarchs, they have an awful lot of info

Wouldn't it make sense if they're the sucessors of the Power, but that doesn't mean thst there were more sucessors after GMS appeared?

[lean temple]

Why should the first be the Weaver here specifically when everyone else also has numbers. And why would the Citadel capture Widow? When would this even happen?

[frosty gate]

Meaning the Rulers have always been there and are the sucessors of the Power, but they were there before GMS came in

[lean temple]

This also means ten other Weavers were taken into the slab, right?

[frosty gate]

What are you talking about what the hell did I stumble upon

[stray grove]

The Weavers were the ones to imprison FS. They were probably also the ones to imprison Widow, because she was clearly at odds with them
But even if it wasn’t the Weavers she was clearly captured and mutilated at some point so this point isn’t up for debate
Everyone else has numbers but X of the First only refers to a Weaver who are, again, the First Children

[stray grove]

No

It means widow is the twelfth of the first children, as opposed to the second of the fourth children or the second of the second children. We don’t know exactly what the number denotes but everything should be formed under the understanding that the weavers are the first

[lean temple]

Well I am not convinced of this understanding of the numbering system

[frosty gate]

I'm betting my ass on The Second being the Conductors

[frosty gate]

Which understanding is this?

[stray grove]

The First of the First is FS. A Weaver
The Weavers are the First Children
idk what else you think it could mean

I’ve explained to you why it can’t be the number of the sin

[lean temple]

If Widow is the 12th of the 1st children who are the other ten? And why is she 12th? That's what I meant when I said if 10 other Weavers were slabbed as per your interpretation

[stray grove]

Why is FS the first
We don’t know who the other ten are

It could be the order they were created or whatever

[frosty gate]

Why would there be other Ten Slabbed Weavers?

[stray grove]

We don’t know and it doesn’t matter really

[spark valve]

it could be rank it could be age it could be any number of things

[stray grove]

Weavers 2-11 don’t need to have been slabbed either

Rank 1 was slabbed and rank 12 was slabbed this doesn’t say anything about the others

[lean temple]

Were the Weavers even still around by that point

[frosty gate]

Its also not rank, it's the enumeration of their birth

[frosty gate]

Which point, m

[lean temple]

I mean FS got her own burial shrine

[spark valve]

by the point weavers were being locked up? yes yes they were

[stray grove]

We don’t know and it doesn’t matter

[stray grove]

Given they’re the ones who slabbed FS and mutilated Widow, yes

The first children were alive at the time when the first children were being imprisoned because when the weavers left/died there weren’t any of them left to slab

[spark valve]

died

they didn't leave

[stray grove]

Left as in left the citadel

And subsequently died yes

[lethal burrow]

i'm doing a silksong trivia quiz tomorrow!
-# Around 2 PM PST

Let me know if you want to get pinged for that!

[tight anchor]

Everything was fine until citadel came

[spark valve]

nah everything was kinda never fine

even before gms karak sucked

[foggy fractal]

is everything fine after sotv ?

[spark valve]

I mean it's... probably better than it has been?

if only because no faction would be intact enough to take over

well

just hope the stilkin don't recover fast enough

they would be worse than anything that came before

[foggy fractal]

uh oh

well ok groal is dead so it should be fine right

[spark valve]

perhaps

[tight anchor]

RAAAAAH FEEL OUR HATE SHITADEL SCUM

[foggy fractal]

dw sherma will figure things out and build an actually good citadel

[stray grove]

Not worse than GMS

[spark valve]

I mean probably worse than gms

[stray grove]

Devotion or destruction ahh

[stray grove]

Well they’re not as bad simply due to being far more limited

[spark valve]

even if that was meant to be read as gms deliberately imposing that stilkin only allow destruction

[stray grove]

There’s only so much damage the Stilkin could do

[spark valve]

bro has not read the conversation 😭

context is MISSING

this is hypothetically after sotv if they could fill the power vacuum

[stray grove]

I mean yeah even then I don’t think they’d be worse than anything that came before

They’d probably do their shit for a while then die off or get overthrown or something

[sinful nimbus]

Fill your hearts with hate, for power has now been claimed, and with it we shall punish 🗣️

[stray grove]

Yeah but that’s just yap

The Stilkin can’t actually do that much on their own

[spark valve]

currently they can't

[stray grove]

I mean no matter what happens they’re never going to approach the might of the prime citadel let alone GMS and the Weavers

I also don’t know that they’re necessarily worse even then but my point is they’re just far less limited in the amount of suffering they could inflict

Stilkin upscale?

[viscid ridge]

My question of the day is what is up with Grand Mother Silks "legs."

Its clearly a prosthetic, but that begs the question, why exactly couldn't she have normal looking legs like her daughters, and if its not supposed to act as legs, what exactly is its use?

Also i want to point out its coloration, which is the same sort of gold or bronze that is found all around the citidel and its architecture. So did the weavers build this thing for her? Why? And why so late in the timeline? Did she have it beforehand?

I wanna hear yalls thoughts on it?

[frosty gate]

That's probably her regular form, I don't see a reason why we would think the Weavers built it for her

We never see her before this so idk

Other possibility is that GMS took things from around her and built that

Why would she do that? Idk

Looking hots

[limpid summit]

I would believe that GMS sort of coalesced as a mostly Silk being and then drew the gold stuff to her to complete the look

She doesn’t really need actual legs she moves around by levitating herself

Who knows

[lethal burrow]

i'm doing a silksong trivia quiz tomorrow! it will be in #sk-discussion
-# Around 2 PM PST

||also let me know if you want to get pinged for that!||

The quiz will have some lore questions

[frosty gate]

I mean, they aren't even legs

It unifies at the bottom so you can't walk with that

[blissful harbor]

it kinda looks like a stinger to me

i’ve had it in my head since i saw her grab attack, like you put her in a spider position, she becomes like a weird spider scorpion thing

[ember river]

If the stilkin managed to become the primary faction of pharloom that'd be a genocide like none have witnessed in the setting

[ember river]

It's the same tonality as her arms, why wouldn't it be natural

[wary pivot]

I think hornet is a bug

[viscid ridge]

Thats fair, but considering the arms and the legs completely detach off her when hornet binds her makes me not think they are part of her completely silk body. Im just wondering why she would have need of prosthetics. It reminded me a lot of how phantom substitutes her face with a mask after it unwound, but i don't think the primal source of silk could have such a problem?

It maybe ties into silk trying to steal silken strength from weavers or something idk

[viscid ridge]

I also thought that, those legs look a lot like her needles, so maybe she just twisted it into something useful or something

[frosty gate]

I don't se the usefulness of that thing honestly

[viscid ridge]

Thats what im saying, why would she want that? 😅

[stray grove]

She’s a literal deity and has atypical biology

[viscid ridge]

Maybe its some sort of spindle? But we never see her use it like that, but it doesn't look like it can be used as anything else unless im wrong

[stray grove]

I wouldn’t call her anatomy into question

I mean beings in this universe often have strange anatomy but this is going to be especially true of an entity like GMS

TC just thought it looked cool ™

[viscid ridge]

I know i know, it just seems a weird contrast you know. Honestly most of my questions would have been thrown out the window if the color of those parts were black like other ancient weaver structures

Cause if she always looked like that it would be strange so idk

[stray grove]

She’s a strange creature

[frosty gate]

GMS just wanted to look pretty

[viscid ridge]

Eh i guess. But im calling a recolor when we see her in a flashback or something. Something is up with those, i just can't prove it yet

[frosty gate]

You know what I can't fit in the Timeline? The Judges

I don't know when those come in

Probably after the Bell Shrines were installed?

Talking about Bell Shrines, throwing this out there, they were most likely made by the Forgebugs

Weavers told them how to do it and the made it

But Weavers put the seals

[viscid ridge]

Its either when the weevers built the citidel, or when the conductors were in charge

[frosty gate]

Considering their coloring I think it was during Weaver

They're more like bronce right?

[viscid ridge]

My guess is the conductors cause at the moment the bells doesn't seem to have any major influence on the citidel

[frosty gate]

What do you mean the Bells don't seem to have a major influence

[viscid ridge]

We know the weavers designed them, but idk if they had any greater role

[frosty gate]

They are the entry

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but in the weavers age they were a lot more lax and let everyone in. The citidel wasn't even so grand back then. The whole religion seemed to have gottan out of control when the conductors and the vaultkeepers got into power

Made everyone increasingly zealous

[frosty gate]

The Weavers didn't let everyone in

The Underworkers are right there

And the Bell Shrines are made by Weavers to keep them out from the Gate

And only the most devoted ones could pass

[frosty gate]

At the very beginning, yes, probably

But they installed those bells there for a reason

[viscid ridge]

Why would the weavers keep people out? That would be incredibly stupid

[frosty gate]

To add to the religion, to make it seem like an exclusive club and make people think they wanted to go in

Why would they have the bells otherwise?

[winter scaffold]

Because then it wouldn’t be as enticing

[frosty gate]

The Gate is straight up Weaver stuff

[winter scaffold]

I would know

I think i made it

[frosty gate]

Maybe

[viscid ridge]

I guess but that seems incredibly unnecessary.

[winter scaffold]

And for game building

Oh wait this is lore channel

[frosty gate]

It could also just be for Stronghold

The Gate is by the border with Karak

The tribe of berserks

[foggy fractal]

berserk ?

[frigid belfry]

the entire point of the citadel is to generate and maximize music production to keep gms asleep

have an unreasonably hard goal in mind that requires this "faith" to maximize song production from the pilgrims

if all pilgrims had relatively easy access to the citadel then there would be little song apart from the choir

[edgy nebula]

the weavers wouldnt want sinful pilgrims entering and spreading untrust and unfaith

[lethal burrow]

Underworks is probably post Weavers

[edgy nebula]

actually no that's a terrible argument im stupid nevermind

[frosty gate]

First Architect made Sentinels for the purpose of kidnapping people and putting them to work

And the First Architect was either made or appointed by Weavers

[mighty kraken]

hi i have so many questions

[lethal burrow]

first architect made the Sentinels, and one of the tasks the sentinels performed was bringing people to the citadel.

Everything beyond that is your presumptions

[mighty kraken]

can someone explain the events prior to hornets arrival

[lethal burrow]

There's a lot so be more specific

[mighty kraken]

such as lace and phantoms creation

gms intentions

[edgy nebula]

lace and phantom were created to be new children for gms, to be perfect, phantom wasnt perfect but lace was

gms wants bugs to be in her hivemind i think

[limpid summit]

GMS created the Weavers to sing her praises but they turned against her

[mighty kraken]

oh ok

[limpid summit]

At some point we don’t know when Phantom was created and “discarded” and then Lace was

[lethal burrow]

Grandmother silk made them and they were made after the Weavers.

The Weaver's betrayed grandmother silk, grandmother silk wants dominance and she also wants daughters.

The dialogue you see when you get the silk hearts is direct dialogue from grandmother.

If someone disagrees feel free to point it out

[lethal burrow]

I don't think lace was perfect

[frosty gate]

Well, rereading the Dialogue, I agree my point is not that big of a deal, still, I have no reason to believe Underworks was made after the Weavers died

[mighty kraken]

also why were the weavers kidnapped and brought back to the citadal if gms created lace to replace the weavers

[edgy nebula]

yeah my bad, purer than the weavers

[lethal burrow]

there is a Weaver shrine in the underworks in the lava and it's not even built into the structure. It's just very weird place for that. It looks like it was built around the Weaver not the other way around

It's where you get claw line

[frosty gate]

It makes more sense if it was under construction during Weaver time and finished by the time they died

[lethal burrow]

that is a good question.

There is not a agreed-upon answer as far as I'm aware

perhaps to wake her up, perhaps for Lacey's benefit because she's a silk being that needs silk.

idk

[stray grove]

A gleaming order, clockwork sentinels, so impressive-majestic in function they were charged-b-b-bound to the highest holy duty. Long before the c-c-creation of the core, the sentinels ventured, even beyond these walls, to see all bugs brought-forced safe to serve the Citadel

[limpid summit]

We aren’t sure - perhaps GMS needed to sustain Lace, maybe she was just bitter and wanted to kill thrm all

[lethal burrow]

That doesn't contradict what I said.

You're presuming they were forced to work in the underworks and not forced to sing the song

[stray grove]

Oh is that what you were responding to

Eh. “Putting them to work “could mean either

[lethal burrow]

ye

[lethal burrow]

In isolation, I agree, but I think there's stuff throughout the game that points towards one as opposed to the other

[mighty kraken]

also another question is does anyone know anything about nameless town

[limpid summit]

Yes

The original Citadel workers were lured from places like the town

[lethal burrow]

The Weaver's drew people down from there

[limpid summit]

By the Weavers

In order to keep the Citadel going

[lethal burrow]

it feels like it should have more significant than that because like... the pilgrim system...

Feels weird to have both if they're just the same thing

[limpid summit]

Wdym

[lethal burrow]

But different

[limpid summit]

The pilgrimage came as a result of the Conductors deifying the Citadel itself by gilding it

[frosty gate]

I keep forgetting about that one, I got nothing. I Jesus what does it fucking take TC to give me a proper DATE in this shut

[lethal burrow]

how do you explain pious isamore than

[stray grove]

We’re told that the sentinels were active “long before the creation of the core”, which is of course what the slaves in the underworks were being used to build so I would be inclined to agree

[limpid summit]

They didn’t need to lure bugs if a culture pressuring them to come was already in place

[stray grove]

What I mean is the message you responded to wasn’t specific either

[limpid summit]

They may have sugarcoated their whispers as divine pilgrimage

[lethal burrow]

So like an online game where there needs to be people playing it for people to be interested in buying it, so they got some initial people to play it so it would look more appealing

[stray grove]

AppleEgg what are you talking about

[frosty gate]

What of it?

[limpid summit]

Yeah pretty much

[mighty kraken]

wait so are the things in the mist gms failed creations

[stray grove]

No Phantom made those