sk-lore

[stray grove]

She was a bargaining chip. The terms of the deal stipulated that he’d have nothing to do with the kid

She was a gift to the nest

[gentle aspen]

Again, you’d think there’d be something when we dive into her memories

[silk dirge]

im just trying to say hornet doesnt like pk probably be he didnt spend much time with her

[stray grove]

If she wants to be mad at anyone for preventing her from spending time with her dad it’d be more sensible to direct her anger at Herrah and the Weavers

[quick geyser]

At the very least, Hornet had a hunch. Let ask yourself a question, Hornet is normally a very perceptive person and she has been demonstrated to even know more than she let on. There was no way she didn’t question how the “trap” was going to work, especially knowing they were snail shamans. And when the snail shaman confronts her, she didn’t even deny it either

[gentle aspen]

Neither did her mom, though?

[silk dirge]

i dont think its any of their faults

[gentle aspen]

And both had their reasons for not doing that

[gentle aspen]

Herrah became a dreamer soon after hornet’s birth and PK was busy ruling a massive kingdom and trying to fix the infection

[stray grove]

I mean it kind of is
And she didn’t spend much time with her mother either but doesn’t exactly seem to be mad about that

[gentle aspen]

she wouldn’t hold that against any of them in any meaningful manner

[stray grove]

Her dad didn’t go to sleep for eternity but what he was doing was way more important than Herrah

[silk dirge]

herrah left hornet off with like a nice goodbye

[stray grove]

Her dad was never supposed to be in her life

[gentle aspen]

discord what the fuck is this shit

[stray grove]

She was a gift to the nest

To the weavers

A bargaining chip

[quick geyser]

Knowing her character arc, getting raised by weavers probably wasn’t the best thing to happen

[gentle aspen]

Well PK didn’t know he was gonna die alone surrounded by reminders of his failures in a pretty much empty castle in another dimension

[frosty gate]

Which is why I'm arguing that she doesn't dislike him, she just doesn't care about him since they didn't interact much.

PK probably was too busy saving the Kingdom to move towards Hornet and try to be a parent.

She remembers only the people who cared for her, her mother, her mentor and her foster mother. White Lady probably spend all the time with Hornet that PK didn't spend

[gentle aspen]

Herrah knew she wasn’t gonna be in her life and was promised to be there

[stray grove]

If that’s true then she should be mad at them and by extension her mother for her inability to spend time with her father, not PK
Not that I think that’s the reason she has an unfavorable view of him, but it’s what Pogseal is arguing

[silk dirge]

yeah my wording is just terrible i think this is more closer to what im trying to say

[silk dirge]

i mean the infection is why pk couldnt spend time with her

he was trying to solve that

[frosty gate]

Fair assumption honestly

Now, I personally think that PK would've loved to spend time with Hornet if the world wasn't going to hell

[gentle aspen]

Even then the trap like, worked

[quick geyser]

It would also explain why Hornet decided to take the blame so much

[lapis creek]

idk if abandoned is the right word

[stray grove]

The Weavers also clearly wanted to groom her into their ideal monarch without his influence hence why the terms of the deal were what they were
“Prove yourself more Weaver than Wyrm”

[gentle aspen]

Hornet/Lace’s presence kinda fucked it up

[foggy fractal]

hello joker

[silk dirge]

i love weaver racism

[quick geyser]

What was that wording bro 😭

[lapis creek]

it would make sense if she were upset with him for leaving when there was still a need for someone to watch over the kingdom

[frosty gate]

Mods are back Andy!!! We have laws again!!!

[foggy fractal]

hooray !

[gentle aspen]

that’s how the word is used

[frosty gate]

That also means I can't send more gifts

[gentle aspen]

grooming isn’t only sexual

[stray grove]

That’s how the word is used?

[lapis creek]

game doesnt go into that though she just thinks hes stupid and domineering

[stray grove]

The Weavers wanted to groom Hornet into their ideal ruler, we literally get told as much in Red Memory

[quick geyser]

You know what, my bad. I gotta go check up on my self

Sorry gng

[silk dirge]

i mean tbh hornet probably never truly got to understand pk's perspective

[stray grove]

It doesn’t take a genius to figure that out

[frosty gate]

What Hornet think of her Nature is most likely what she thinks of her Dad, "Something she doesn't want to be"

[silk dirge]

shes born and her kingdom fucking dies shortly after

[gentle aspen]

Hornet would probably be too OP if PK was present in her life

[silk dirge]

and shes just like "alright yeah you didnt give a fuck about me i dont care about you"

[gentle aspen]

the amount of spells

[noble magnet]

Yo, silksong symbolism question

[gentle aspen]

Shoot

[stray grove]

Hornet seems to have forgiven Herrah and WL for being cruel and complicit

She should also forgive her father

[foggy fractal]

imagine hornet with teleport and those nail summons

[silk dirge]

maybe she could get some monarch wings

[silk dirge]

i agree

[frosty gate]

"Oh yeah girl like Rune Rage? I can just teach you that shit, focus a bit here"

[noble magnet]

Given what greyroot represents do you think her weird head shape is supposed to be reminiscent of a uterus

[silk dirge]

this would be cool to have in red memory

[gentle aspen]

first I’ve heard of it

lemme check

!wiki Greyroot

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Greyroot

Hollow Knight Wiki

Greyroot

Greyroot is an NPC in Hollow Knight: Silksong.

Location

Shellwood

Role

Quest NPC

Tasks

Rite of the Pollip
Rite of Rebirth

Gender

Unspecified

Actor

Lauren Koopowitz

Singing

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/File:Greyroot_Sing.ogg

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/File:Greyroot_Sing_02.ogg

[stray grove]

That’s actually a neat observation

[gentle aspen]

Huh

good shit man

[frosty gate]

Hopefully the last 🙏

[gentle aspen]

that makes a lot of sense

[stray grove]

I don’t know if it’s intentional but go off

[silk dirge]

thats crazy

[lapis creek]

oh damn

[noble magnet]

I’m the fuckin innovator

[gentle aspen]

I didn’t even notice that

[frosty gate]

She never blamed them???

[frosty gate]

No???? Once again, she doesn't care about him

[gentle aspen]

I mean based on WL’s dialogue she probably did

[lapis creek]

wl seems concerned that she would think that way

[silk dirge]

i mean i dont think hornet ever blamed herrah

[gentle aspen]

WL’s whole shtick in the red memory is very apologetic

[frosty gate]

But she doesn't

[quick geyser]

Actually, her dialogue with the white lady in red memory prove the opposite.

...Alas... spider's child......For our ways you will think us harsh... You will think us uncaring, unrepentant...And so we must seem, for such is the cost of our wish...
Hornet: You are wrong, Lady...
Hornet: I knew the wish, and the price to achieve it. And now, across these many ages, I have only come to know it better...

[lapis creek]

and thinks it takes a great deal of development for her not to

which means at some point before all her experiences she probably did?

[stray grove]

I mean she cares enough about him to denigrate his efforts

[gentle aspen]

as a child maybe but as of right now she doesn’t

[stray grove]

“I have seen much pain born from their dominion” 🥀

[gentle aspen]

It’d be nice if this wasn’t just towards white lady and was towards both of the pale beings tbh

[stray grove]

“Devotion or destruction these are the only fates my kind allow” 🥀

[gentle aspen]

WL uses “us” a lot

[frosty gate]

It really just sounds like she always understood the wish and that with time she even came closer to it. I don't think she blames them

[quick geyser]

Yep

[frosty gate]

Any of them

[stray grove]

I mean she criticizes PK repeatedly

[frosty gate]

She does it once

[lapis creek]

i think it would have been really interesting to go into hornet's reasons for being upset with pk because she was in the incredibly unique position of both being his daughter and being saddled with the fate of his kingdom. but the insight she gives in the game is on the same level as the mushrooms. he tampered with forces beyond his comprehension. i didn't need hornet to tell me that

[stray grove]

I just listed two other examples

[lapis creek]

not to mention the things that really dont fit with hk

[stray grove]

She even at one point wonders if Hallownest was built on slave labor like ???

that ain’t it gng 😭

[frosty gate]

That's their kind, not specifically PK

That also applies to Queenie

[stray grove]

But it’s not accurate in PK’s case

She’s just talking shit

[frosty gate]

SPECIALLY QUEENIE

[stray grove]

“I’m not like other pale beings”

[gentle aspen]

It barely applies to the two we see

[stray grove]

She says this too btw

[lapis creek]

it just doesnt

2/3 of the pale beings we see are married to one another

[frosty gate]

It applies to the Lady, fuck her she gets too many passes

[quick geyser]

I don’t think Hornet literally have to mention PK for we to figure that she is also talking about him too. The whole dialogue is about how she will save the kingdom using her own strength and not through any other sacrifices. And oh boy, you know who else is also related to the theme of sacrifice

[gentle aspen]

When

[frosty gate]

Queens Gardens was a conquest for no reason

[gentle aspen]

lemme guess queen’s gardens?

[stray grove]

To be fair the devotion or destruction line is just badly written that’s not actually what it means

[gentle aspen]

that’s not a conquest

That’s literally at most squatting

[stray grove]

The much pain born from their dominion and other MM dialogue is the better example to use here

[frosty gate]

She pushed them out

[gentle aspen]

She didn’t force her way and beat up a bunch of mosskin bruh

[frosty gate]

Because they left

[gentle aspen]

no, she moved in and the mosskin decided “no more go there the pale being doesn’t share our dream”

“Even though she’s a root”

[silk dirge]

i wonder what hornet was defending hallownest from after dnm or etv

[gentle aspen]

calling that a conquest is really weird

[stray grove]

The Mosskin had likely already left the area when WL took over

And the tablet doesn’t imply a hostile takeover

At all

[silk dirge]

did she kill other random ass vessels for fun

[stray grove]

They’re just like “yeah be wary of her gng”

[gentle aspen]

She doesn’t like killing vessels

[stray grove]

“She seems chill but she’s not one of us”

[gentle aspen]

She’d have no reason post ending

[silk dirge]

theres gotta be like one vessel who made it to steel city who didnt get the memo

[quick geyser]

Basically what dead joker just said

[silk dirge]

anyways i am curious what hornet was doing

considering itd be extremely boring

literally nothing alive to hunt

[gentle aspen]

maybe go back to deepnest finally

converse with midwife

see their sibling took their charm and get a little annoyed

[stray grove]

Midwife probably dead bro

[gentle aspen]

We’re not talking about your love life bro

[silk dirge]

"dad said its my turn with the weaver charm"

[blissful harbor]

midwife just fucking dies after dnm
just falls over

[lapis creek]

joker did you change my username to commemorate the return of kirb

[gentle aspen]

I would never

he’s a nerd

[gentle aspen]

Dies just to spite hornet not visiting

“Never visiting grammy”

“I’ll teach her”

[stray grove]

Midwife is an asshole

[gentle aspen]

why does midwife know she’s protecting brand btw

WL makes sense I think

But midwife?

[stray grove]

Maybe Hornet told her

[blissful harbor]

hornet is a jabber mouth

[noble magnet]

Hornet: I’m going to go protect the brand
Midwife: ok

[quick geyser]

Tbh, I’d think it fit Hornet tragedy. There are dialogues implying how Hornet hate being alone for so long

[gentle aspen]

oh maybe after the endings hornet went on a dating spree

[noble magnet]

Midwife and WL both can tell when you dream nail them

Maybe they can just

[stray grove]

TC wrote one good character (PK) then decided to undermine him in the sequel

[sinful nimbus]

I think Midwife can tell from interacting with the Nosks

[noble magnet]

psychically tell where hornet is?

[gentle aspen]

This is insane mc shit

[sinful nimbus]

White Lady was good too

[lapis creek]

at least thk hasnt been assassinated

[gentle aspen]

WL can only sense vessels pretty sure

[lapis creek]

white lady was not that good

[sinful nimbus]

The entire pale family was fire asf now none of them are

[stray grove]

Not even close

[frosty gate]

Let's not say conquest, but pushing people from their land is not cool

[stray grove]

WL is kind of an asshole actually

[sinful nimbus]

Uh huh

[frosty gate]

"Lays Claim"

[stray grove]

As a character she’s not nearly as developed or interesting as her husband

[frosty gate]

"You know this place is pretty it's mine now"

[quick geyser]

Pale king fans when he isn’t relevant anymore:

[stray grove]

“Though once our lands”

[sinful nimbus]

I didn't say she was as good as PK I just said she was good and she serves as a mirror to him anyway

[lapis creek]

it's super obvious that pk made the people of city of tears do land acknowledgments every time they held any kind of event or gathering

[stray grove]

Do not recite the deep magics to me witch

[frosty gate]

"But, my lady, this is the lands of the Mosskin"
"Oh so no one will complain if I just take it right?"

[sinful nimbus]

You clearly don't grasp her character if you dislike her

[stray grove]

I don’t dislike her

Actually I think the lore community tends to hate on her unfairly

[sinful nimbus]

Backpedal

[lapis creek]

shes like b tier at best

[gentle aspen]

okay? Still doesn’t fit the “devotion or destruction” line

[stray grove]

That doesn’t mean I don’t like her

She is an asshole

That’s true

[gentle aspen]

No pale being follows that until Silksong just makes it some inborn urge in their blood retroactively

[sinful nimbus]

No she's not

[stray grove]

Yeah she is

[frosty gate]

Oh, I don't think it does actually, but she is a bit of a bitch for pushing them out lol

[sinful nimbus]

If PK did what she did you wouldn't be saying that

Kinda problematic

[final vault]

What do yall think about adding primal aspids to silksong for april fools day?

[gentle aspen]

Clocked

[frosty gate]

PK didn't even do that shit which makes the whole situation worse

[gentle aspen]

not a lore topic

#sk-discussion

[final vault]

oh wrong channel sr

[frosty gate]

Like wtf PK respected the lands

[sinful nimbus]

WL didn't push em out 🥀

[gentle aspen]

It’d be funny if what hornet ascribed to pale beings was just a weaver thing lmfao

I mean they made the fucking citadel which is actively negative

[silk dirge]

yeah

[gentle aspen]

every time she asked weaver aunties they just lied and said it was because she was pale

[frosty gate]

She didn't force them out, but to go in and say "This is mine now" while knowing your neighbors don't like you is pushing them out

[silk dirge]

did hornet prove herself more weaver than wyrm

what do we think

[stray grove]

WL only feels “some shame” for the part she played in the Vessels’ creation and repeatedly tries to gaslight TK into replacing THK knowing this solution is not sustainable and even continues to push once she has reason to believe TK isn’t actually pure
I’m sorry but someone who doesn’t seem that bothered about sending their kid to get tortured by an evil light god for what may as well be an eternity doesn’t strike me as particularly nice
WL also contributes nothing to the kingdom. She lives in territory that doesn’t belong to her like a… parasite

[sinful nimbus]

wym they don't like her

[frosty gate]

"Doesn't share their dream"

[sinful nimbus]

She's mistaken not malicious did you read her dialogue

[edgy nebula]

what even was greenpath’s dream

to touch grass?

[stray grove]

Even after she realizes she might be wrong she continues to push it to replace THK did you read that message

[frosty gate]

Pacificim and Vegans idk

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah she's foreign that doesn't mean they don't like her

[stray grove]

Why does she give TK Kingsoul

Telling it to go the the birthplace is to satisfy her own morbid curiosity apparently

[sinful nimbus]

Oh I didn't read the full message actually but I saw you comparing her to Greyroot so now idrc troll

[frosty gate]

"Be wary to wander that place" It straight up tells people to not get near her spot

[lapis creek]

i think it would be interesting if the pale beings actually did tend to seek control and be corrupted by power as the game insinuates, and the conclusion was that even if your brain is wired this way you can get past your base instincts and change for the better, as pk did

could be an interesting conflict for hornet

[frosty gate]

She probably doesn't hate her, but it's clear Unn doesn't get along with other Higher Beings

[lapis creek]

but again

[sinful nimbus]

She gives TK kingsoul to help it supplant THK

[stray grove]

Whatever you say Starpengu

[stray grove]

Read the very next message

[sinful nimbus]

That's when she realizes she might be incorrect

[stray grove]

And she still pushes it to replace THK lmao

[frosty gate]

Like WL's arrival to QG made all of the Mosskin in that place move out

[sinful nimbus]

If you played the game you would know her exhausted dialogue changes to her encouraging you to go to the abyss

So no actually

She stops doing that

[stray grove]

“Yeah go find out about the circumstances of your birth then go replace THK anyway”

Is she stupid?

[stray grove]

Uhm no

[sinful nimbus]

Uhm yes

[stray grove]

She doesn’t suggest an alternative does she

She doesn’t tell TK to just fuck off and do whatever it wants

[sinful nimbus]

I literally talked to her yesterday

[stray grove]

She still wants it to supplant THK

[sinful nimbus]

No she wants it to investigate birthplace

[stray grove]

If you have dialogue suggesting she changes her mind post VH provide it

[frosty gate]

I believe she does, or at the least implies you should do something different, let me check

[stray grove]

And do what

[sinful nimbus]

Oh my god

[stray grove]

Birthplace isn’t an alternative to replacing THK

It isn’t a solution

[sinful nimbus]

Void Heart is

[stray grove]

She says “if you want you can have a look there”

[stray grove]

She never says this

Her post VH dialogue isn’t “oh wow you can go kill Rad now”

If you talk to her again she tells you to fuck off

(And replace THK)

Again there is nothing suggesting she changes her mind lmao stop making shit up

And even if she does it’s not like she provides or even alludes to an alternative solution

[sinful nimbus]

proof?

[stray grove]

So that’s just not helpful

[sinful nimbus]

Her exhausted dialogue changes

She doesn't keep telling you that

Have you read this it would save us both the effort https://docs.google.com/document/d/11gCJHxij2CaFlWmWpBu8sAthiC_gkSDFazN4vzsmgBE/edit

[stray grove]

Show me what it changes to

[stray grove]

Please stop

I don’t want to read a doc

[frosty gate]

She tells you to replace THK, then tells you to investigate the Birthplace and after acquiring VH she seems to be put off. She doesn't tell you to replace the Vessel, she says that the fate of the Kingdom is now on our hands

[stray grove]

It looks like shit anyway

[sinful nimbus]

OK I'm booting up HK rn to talk to her with Void Heart

[edgy nebula]

just go to the wiki you buffoons

[lapis creek]

hollow knight fans can't read!!!!!!!

[stray grove]

She says that the first time you get VH

[edgy nebula]

this sidequest is stupid

[sinful nimbus]

I don't trust the wiki

[edgy nebula]

isnt the wiki lead by sumwan who helped with the voidheart doc that you used though

[sinful nimbus]

I'm approaching WL! Get ready

[stray grove]

That doc looks like shit anyway

[sinful nimbus]

Arguments about to crumble

[stray grove]

Oh my god

Shiver me timbers

[frosty gate]

Oh that's a good Doc

[stray grove]

What?

It sucks ass bruh

[edgy nebula]

the most toxic argument ive ever seen in my life

[stray grove]

What’s good about it

[sinful nimbus]

You haven't read it genius

[stray grove]

Yeah I have

[quick geyser]

I’ve seen worse tbh

[stray grove]

I think the author is a moron

[sinful nimbus]

Reading entails comprehending the text not skimming over it

I'm in WL's room rn

[stray grove]

I’m so scared

[edgy nebula]

whatd she say

[sinful nimbus]

Read it and weep

[quick geyser]

I don’t even know what they are arguing lmao

[stray grove]

Although the following is only speculation, it may be considered that Kingsoul costs five notches to equip, and is therefore the ‘heaviest’ charm in the game, whereas Void Heart is ‘weightless’. This can be taken to symbolise the figurative ‘weight’ of Pale King and White Lady’s regret in having conceived the Vessels. The Knight is no longer being burdened with that ‘weight’ after it is able to come to terms with the conditions of its birth.

Gng what is this 🥀

Is this the “good” doc

[foggy fractal]

sorry video won't load

[stray grove]

Ok?

[sinful nimbus]

I win

[stray grove]

How does this contradict what I said

That’s the same dialogue I just referred to lmao

[sinful nimbus]

She doesn't encourage you after that

The exhausted dialogue changes

[stray grove]

She makes no indication that she’s changed her mind

[quick geyser]

What’s bad about this, literally analyzing details

[stray grove]

She says the future belongs to you now

[sinful nimbus]

Read??????

Yes because there's a choice between prolonging the stasis or ending it

[stray grove]

Her personal preference is unchanged

Or rather she makes no mention of it

[frosty gate]

This is usually how things turn with Star in the conversation, although usually Star is on the toxic side, this is a nice turn of events

[stray grove]

Would it not be more reasonable for her to actually acknowledge the alternative

[sinful nimbus]

It can be inferred

[quick geyser]

Well the line had to do a lot with TK character and HK message in general but I won’t talk much here

[sinful nimbus]

Do you need her personal view on what decision she prefers spoonfed to you in the dialogue where she tells YOU to decide

[stray grove]

Maybe the author of that stupid doc would agree with you given they also “inferred” some nonsense about the charm notch cost symbolizing the burden (lmao) but I’m not going to fall for it

[sinful nimbus]

That's irrelevant to my point back on topic please

[stray grove]

Yeah? So WL herself is still an asshole

[sinful nimbus]

Based on what

She literally corrects herself 🥀

[stray grove]

She wasn’t ever sure to begin with

And admits she had no real way to assess purity

[sinful nimbus]

HK fans when character flaw

[stray grove]

In fact the baseline assumption should be that they’re all impure

[quick geyser]

Genuinely don’t see the problem with that. Some good analysis right there, I’m eating so good rn

[sinful nimbus]

She's wrong then she changes her mind and becomes good

[stray grove]

It’s a superficial analysis

[frosty gate]

She also doesn't know there's another option, she only learns that through the Void heart

[stray grove]

Do you just agree with anyone who uses a lot of words where a few would do

That doc arrives at nothing of value

It’s just yap

[frosty gate]

When the words are nicely explained, well, yes.

[quick geyser]

Oh wow, I’m getting information in a doc that is quite literally analyzing the kingsoul and Void heart! How surprising

[stray grove]

Ok let me rephrase

What do you find good about the doc

My understanding is that most of them were unnecessarily long/contrived and contained inaccurate information

[lapis creek]

kirb i like your arguments but i think you should make more scathing personal comments about the author

[stray grove]

I just don’t think it’s sensible to post a doc in the middle of a conversation first and foremost

That just derails actual discussion and frankly puts people off

This doc is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand too

It never makes any mention of WL changing her mind post VH or whatever

[sinful nimbus]

No it didn't

You kept talking

Why are you getting upset on a hypothetical user who hates docs behalf

[stray grove]

It’s not a hypothetical

[quick geyser]

Narratively, shouldn’t it implied so? Before acquiring the void heart, we can only pursue 1 ending that being the knight replacing THK. Acquiring the void heart, as you’ve know, is how TK confronts its own birth and decided to break the fate that was placed on them upon birth (to be a vessel). When white lady said something along the line “The future is yours now”, from a writing perspective, it basically a way of saying “You’re free from your destined fate and can now pursue a better path”

[sinful nimbus]

Exactly

[sinful nimbus]

Yes it did, no one got put off from the discussion

Only one derailing things is you

[frosty gate]

Also, I personally agree that White Lady, while good, isn't a saint since again, I don't think Queens Garden is particularly a good thing she did. That's the only thing I argued about, idk where THK came into the conversation

[quick geyser]

Oh and don’t treat me like starpengu, I am by no mean trying to be offensive 😭🙏

[stray grove]

you twistriker and nameskaga have not yet explained the relevance of that to me

Why did you just post an irrelevant poorly written doc in the middle of a discussion

What was your motivation

Did you want me to stop to go read it and come back

That’s absurd

[sinful nimbus]

Since you didn't understand what Void Heart represented yes

[stray grove]

If you have a counter argument you shouldn’t need to rely on a doc to make it for you

If you want to teach me about VH’s symbolism you could just tell me

[sinful nimbus]

And I don't mind a break from talking to you either

[stray grove]

I don’t care for the doc

[quick geyser]

I don’t care about the doc, don’t hold me to the same standard bro

[sinful nimbus]

Yes but it was already written for me

[stray grove]

Then why did you jump to its defense when I criticized it

You could have kept that to yourself

For the record I’m not trying to offend either

I just don’t appreciate Starpengu’s constant dismissals

So forgive me if I seem a bit on edge

[sinful nimbus]

"Why do you care when someone says something obviously wrong"

[stray grove]

What’s obviously wrong

[sinful nimbus]

Scroll wheel is free

[frosty gate]

I mean the Doc explained a about the Void heart and what it represented which was what Star was trying to convey

[stray grove]

Star could have just said that instead of posting an unnecessarily long and poorly written doc mid convo

Also the discussion wasn’t about VH’s symbolism

[quick geyser]

I’m not entirely defending the doc. It just that when you commented this, I was under the impression that you thought this part was bad and incorrect analysis (Which I don’t think so)

[sinful nimbus]

did bro not read it was about WL's VH dialogue

[stray grove]

Yeah I think that part is pretty egregious

There’s no way that’s a serious analysis

This isn’t 7th grade English

[sinful nimbus]

Which you so eloquently explained with "gng what is this 🥀 "

Can you explain what's wrong with it

[stray grove]

Well forgive me for thinking that anyone who read it would arrive at the same conclusion

[sinful nimbus]

I think its a beautiful interpretation

[stray grove]

Are you getting paid to promote this doc or something

[frosty gate]

I didn't need to read it to come to the same conclusion, I just think it was a nice interpretation

[stray grove]

“Care to explain what’s nice about it”

Maybe I’m missing something

I’m willing to admit I can be wrong, unlike Star

[sinful nimbus]

"Everyone who likes a thing was bribed"

[quick geyser]

The analysis convey what it needed to, we don’t have to use big words to seems professional here

[sinful nimbus]

Why are you so accusatory dude 😐

[frosty gate]

The one time Star isn't in the wrong, dear God. I don't even know why you two started arguing

[sinful nimbus]

The one time?!

[quick geyser]

Eh you know what I’m out

[stray grove]

Let’s make it the only time

I’m out too

[frosty gate]

[stray grove]

Debating Star is exhausting

[sinful nimbus]

Go take a nap then

[stray grove]

Hopefully next time we can talk about something less contentious

[frosty gate]

It really is, but this is the one time where I don't think it had to be exhausting

I really don't get why this got so heated

[stray grove]

Well, I’m sorry

I’m sorry for critiquing the doc so harshly too that’s not fair to the creator

I’m sure they’re a lovely person

[frosty gate]

I don't have a patting emoji but I'd use it if I had one

[viscid ridge]

What did you guys discuss?

[frosty gate]

At this point I'm not sure

[sinful nimbus]

We were talking about White Lady's dialogue until Mr. The Return of the King turned it into an insult slinging fest

[stray grove]

The convo’s over. Let’s leave it there

I’m sorry if I offended anyone. Let’s change the topic

[frosty gate]

This wasn't even Silksong related lmso

[stray grove]

I mean it was HK related

I think it’s appropriate to talk HK lore here

It also started as a SS convo

We were talking about Red Memory

[sinful nimbus]

Speaking of how much do you think Hornet's memory of White Lady is accurate

WL doesn't really seem to understand the Pale King's glow very much (Like Hornet who presumably scarcely saw him) and Hornet can't remember her face

[stray grove]

Why would you say that

[viscid ridge]

How do you mean?

[lapis creek]

maybe this explains why the flower behaves so differently

the everbloom has never been this strong and hornet just happened to remember it that way

the shamans were whispering between themselves to keep the placebo effect strong

[frosty gate]

I'm going on the usage of Memory in other media so I'm guessing WL can only know what Hornet kmows

The Memory WL I mean

Which means, I think it as accurate as Hornet remembers her

[sinful nimbus]

just a question man

[viscid ridge]

Idk what you guys are actually referencing, cause i think maybe you didn't get you point clearly across 😅

[frosty gate]

The question is, how accurate is Red Memory white lady

I don't think there's much points to get across

[sinful nimbus]

I'm proposing that the White Lady in Red Memory isn't really an accurate depiction of her real self and beliefs

[viscid ridge]

But thats a silly question then isn't it?

[viscid ridge]

How so?

[frosty gate]

Which would make sense, its only an accurate depiction of what Hornet saw

Not a depiction of how WL was actually really like

[sinful nimbus]

RM WL claims that PK had no other method of resisting the void Hornet also can't remember her face (Like Herrah)

[frosty gate]

To be fair, we also don't know other methods

[sinful nimbus]

Also her dialogue is a Hornet glazing fest

[blissful harbor]

i mean WL talks to her through the memory, seeing her current form and knowing she’s in a memory
seems to me it’s literally WL using dream magic shit

[frosty gate]

Except those fucking flies at the lighthouse

[sinful nimbus]

Huh why

[blissful harbor]

fym why

[sinful nimbus]

PK himself also glowed

[viscid ridge]

But as far as i know the everbloom is the only way to resist the void, i doubt there is anything that says there was something else? Unless im misrembering

[frosty gate]

Some people think that, I'm not sure that'd be the case

[sinful nimbus]

I'm asking why you think that

Why wouldn't it just be another memory

[limpid summit]

The text box changes from abstract memory to a conversation

[blissful harbor]

Reach forth, child grown strong. Wrest it from this remembrance. Burn yourself free from our sad fate...

this line in particular

[limpid summit]

It’s pretty clearly a sequence break

[frosty gate]

Wait there's a change in the text box?

[sinful nimbus]

Well yes Hornet is confronting a memory

It reacts accordingly

[blissful harbor]

why would a memory acknowledge it’s a memory

[sinful nimbus]

Because Hornet does

[blissful harbor]

wouldn’t she just go…with the memory

[limpid summit]

...Alas... spider's child...
...For our ways you will think us harsh... You will think us uncaring, unrepentant...
...And so we must seem, for such is the cost of our wish...

This is all WL saying to young Hornet like

You’ll grow to understand your conception and hate us

[viscid ridge]

So am i getting this right, are you saying that pale kings glow is able to resist the void like the everbloom does?

[silk dirge]

where did the pale outfit go

[sinful nimbus]

Wym

[gentle aspen]

yeah

[silk dirge]

does hornet just have like a closet back in hallownest with all the fits

and she just only wears one dress

[frosty gate]

Depends on memory bs the use. In some media, interacting with a Memory will make that memory relatively sentient and it will act accordingly to what you remember of them

[limpid summit]

For her you become... who knows clear our desire, and has seen full the darkness beneath our house, I would show you the gift...

[viscid ridge]

Cause thats not accurate is it? Its never said that the pale king could do that?

[limpid summit]

So this is self glazing

“WL would totally say this” thinks Hornet to herself

[frosty gate]

Yes

[gentle aspen]

we quite literally see a lighthouse filled with lumaflies and a lens stop the void from thrashing

PK is a god of light

[sinful nimbus]

But that's what light does

[gentle aspen]

He gives off light passively

[frosty gate]

What Johnathan mean is PK himself, not other means like the Lighthouse

[gentle aspen]

read what is being said

a lighthouse can do it

A god of light who gives off light can do the same

[sinful nimbus]

He also owned that lighthouse

[frosty gate]

Yeah I just

Hate that Lighthouse so much

[sinful nimbus]

TRUE

[frosty gate]

That fucking Lighthouse is just

Impossible to retcon

[viscid ridge]

Idk what you're all on about personally, this is really some lackluster evidence for a power that has never been mentioned 💀

[stray grove]

I agree John

[blissful harbor]

lumaflies were eating everbloom

[limpid summit]

He glows

[sinful nimbus]

PK glowing is pretty established

[frosty gate]

There's proof, it just still a weird theory

[limpid summit]

Stag says he’s heard this and he’s talked to stags who likely drove passengers who met PK

[frosty gate]

I don't vibe with that theory

[limpid summit]

Emilitia corroborates him

[viscid ridge]

By this logic the void shouldn't have been able to kill the radiance, or gms, and maybe pk if you believe the void killed him

[frosty gate]

But the lighthouse makes it IMPOSSIBLE to deny

[silk dirge]

did pk get a presidential convoy or some shit

[limpid summit]

We beat Rad’s aura down

[silk dirge]

secret stag service

[blissful harbor]

different scenarios

[limpid summit]

Her light aura repels the void in the first phase

[sinful nimbus]

Indeed the void can only touch Radiance after the light surrounding her is dispelled

[limpid summit]

Yes

Hidden station and distant village

The stag is like

Wtf we never came here

[silk dirge]

i meant like

[sinful nimbus]

Go watch a video of the Radiance fight and pay attention to the weird circly thingy that surrounds her

[silk dirge]

secret service

but stags

if pk was travelling around

[sinful nimbus]

GMS also doesn't really glow ala Rad or PK but the void has a tough time killing her too

[gentle aspen]

void in the former was united and still wasn’t able to definitively kill the radiance until her halo was gone
he wasn’t killed by void

and yes gms was killed by void but she also was in the middle of a void sea and held off it killing her for a prolonged period of time

[limpid summit]

Star can we spin back to WL though

[foggy fractal]

her aura 🥶

[sinful nimbus]

Yea

[gentle aspen]

it isn’t some headcanon “weird theory” it’s just how stuff works

[stray grove]

I’m not comfortable revisiting that topic

If you would respect my preferences I’d like not to

[gentle aspen]

you were not being spoken to

[limpid summit]

Who are you

[frosty gate]

Based on what we know, the only theory that I can come up with is that PK "glow" Is just him using a shit ton of soul to push the Void back and with it the managed to clean the Abyss

[stray grove]

But I would like to be included in the current conversation

[limpid summit]

I don’t really care

[sinful nimbus]

worked

[stray grove]

I don’t think there’s any need to be rude

There’s a convo currently ongoing and I would like to be included

[gentle aspen]

If you do not want to participate in a particular conversation then don’t

[viscid ridge]

This is some next level mental gymnastics lmao, i wanna see where it goes 🤣

[frosty gate]

I mean yeah, I just don't vibe with it because it doesn't make sense what WL says with what PK would hypothetically be able to do

[stray grove]

ikr John it’s hilarious

But they seem to want to go back to an earlier topic

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not comfortable with you involving yourself in the conversation. Please respect my preferences 😇

[stray grove]

Instead of actually explaining

[gentle aspen]

Mental gymnastics is when you read dialogue and what is being said

[viscid ridge]

I can see that 🤣

[gentle aspen]

it’s not even reading dialogue you can see this phenomenon happening

and it is very unappreciated to mock people in this manner

If you can’t have a respectful conversation there’s no purpose for this discussion

[stray grove]

I have trouble with reading comprehension sometimes

[sinful nimbus]

We know

[stray grove]

I would appreciate it more if you could explain to me exactly what you mean

[sinful nimbus]

Trust me we know

[gentle aspen]

this applies to you as well

stop

[sinful nimbus]

Ugh

[stray grove]

There’s no need to be rude…

I’m acknowledging my shortcomings

[sinful nimbus]

Ok The Return of the King, what did you have trouble understanding?

[limpid summit]

Star if Sheo can recognize he’s being attuned WL can recognize she’s in a memory right

I think it’s the same sort of principle

[sinful nimbus]

Ya

[viscid ridge]

Yall this is absolutely hilarious 🤣

[frosty gate]

Okay you just taking the piss, Star has been fucking unbearable plenty of times in this channel and she never gets a warning, cut some slack

And some others too

[frosty gate]

First time I see Kirb talk

[gentle aspen]

I literally just told her to stop

god

[frosty gate]

Wasn't the comment direct to Kirb?

[gentle aspen]

Literally fucking read what I said

It’s right there

I fucking reply pinged her with this and she acknowledged the verbal warning

man screw this im outta here

[frosty gate]

Oh I missed that, God I miss my pc

My bad chief

[stray grove]

Guys I think we got off on the wrong foot

Let’s all take a step back

[sinful nimbus]

I'm sorry

What did you have trouble understanding about the theory?

[stray grove]

@viscid ridge and I weren’t clear on the powers you were assigning to PK

Specifically him having the ability to passively repel Void

[frosty gate]

Not a good day in Sk lore

[viscid ridge]

Dw it happens like every second day 🤣

[frosty gate]

Oh I know this is the only channel I use

[stray grove]

Hahahaha

[limpid summit]

I think he would probably have Delicate Flowers in his workshop if there wasn’t some other means of repelling the void

Not limited to his own established glow

[stray grove]

This isn’t a very compelling argument I’m sorry

[limpid summit]

That’s a matter of opinion

[stray grove]

He also wasn’t working with vast quantities of Void

[blissful harbor]

still hard to work with a jar of the jar is tryna swipe at you

[stray grove]

And the Void he was working with he was imprinting or binding with runes

[limpid summit]

Was LKB working with vast quantities of void

It was just one void creature

[limpid summit]

It would have to be unbound for him to bind it don’t you agree

[stray grove]

That was an already imprinted void creature whom he spent a vast amount of time with

[limpid summit]

You don’t think PK spent a vast amount of time among raw void?

[stray grove]

No

[limpid summit]

Some scientist he must have been

Downscale

Not only is he a terrible father and a mass murderer but no respect for the scientific method

[stray grove]

I think the Void in the palace was either securely contained or being used for a construct

[stray grove]

I don’t think he was spending most of his days frolicking in the stuff like the LKB was

[blissful harbor]

aren’t there just buckets and jars of the stuff in his workshop

[stray grove]

Yes but that’s securely contained

[limpid summit]

Do you think the void came out of the sea securely contained

[stray grove]

There isn’t just void spilled across every wall and carpet

[limpid summit]

He would have had to securely contain it

[stray grove]

It’s in one specific area of the palace

Far away from him

[stray grove]

Not him personally

And that still eliminates the time element

[frosty gate]

WL's dialogue saying the only means to resist the void was for sure a terrible calamity

[limpid summit]

So he sent his retainers?

[blissful harbor]

the way i see it

[limpid summit]

He sent regular bugs to go deal with the toxic death substance

[stray grove]

Who were perhaps provided with a means of repelling the void

I don’t think there’s anything to indicate PK was responsible for personally collecting it

[limpid summit]

That seems unwise

[stray grove]

He wasn’t personally tending to the lighthouse

They were obviously being exposed to it one way or another

[limpid summit]

I don’t recall any Retainer corpses in the workshop

[frosty gate]

It's just terrible, it doesn't make sense

[limpid summit]

Or living ones

[stray grove]

Why would there be corpses there

Do you think they dropped dead as soon as they finished making the delivery

Or are you deliberately taking my words out of context

[limpid summit]

Do you think they carried around delicate flowers everywhere they went

What if they fell and dropped them

Whoops they’re dead

[blissful harbor]

it’s the only way to like
actively resist it
like, we see with etv it can banish it…to wherever if necessary, and it leaves you completely unscathed

[stray grove]

I think the pale king delegated the task of collecting void for his experiments to his servants just as he delegated the task of operating the lighthouse to them

He was obviously comfortable with them in the abyss

I don’t know why this is where you draw the line

[blissful harbor]

so like, other lights can calm it but only the everbloom can truly resist it
yes it doesn’t make sense
the retcon doesn’t make sense fight ya mama

[frosty gate]

There could be two ways I guess? Repelling it and just calming it?

[sinful nimbus]

Okay, let's break it down!

Firstly, The Pale King is established to glow numerous times in game:

• Eternal Emilitia notes that he glows bright, believing his glow to be superior to the Everbloom's
• The Old Stag reports a rumor that he glowed so bright it hurt to look at him
• Monomon describes him as "Kinglight", contrasting him with the Radiance which she refers to as "Oldlight"
• Seer describes the Pale King as a light and compares him to the Radiance
• The Pale King himself describes Radiance as his "blazing kin"

Secondly, Void is established multiple times in game to be pacified/repelled by light

• The Void sea is rendered passive by the Lighthouse in The Abyss, operating off of lumafly light
• In the transition to the platform phase of the Radiance fight, she loses her 'light halo', allowing Void Tendrils to grab onto her. However, once she regains it, the Void Tendrils let go until the end of the fight. It is only until the end of the fight where you *dispel the halo once more can the tendrils latch onto Radiance and finish her off *
• The Moulds used to create Wingmould/Kingsmoulds utilize glowing white soul, although this is a bit more tenuous

Now, read up and take note of the bolded text, do you see how the Pale King's light is repeatedly compared to that of the Radiance's, which is established to be able to repel void?
From this, we can conclude his light is analogous to the Radiance's, and therefore can presumably repel the void in the same manner. This is corroborated by the Pale King referring to Void as the "power opposed [to light]" in his workshop

Does this help clear it up for you?

[stray grove]

I’m sorry this looks AI generated

The first and last lines scream ChatGPT

[grizzled summit]

Hey there fellow silksong players

[stray grove]

Hey!

What’s up

[grizzled summit]

I have noticed something

[sinful nimbus]

Pardon me, but I don't really take kindly to you discounting the hard work it took to type this up by accusing me of using generative AI, especially when you could see me painstakingly typing it for over 10 minutes 😒

[lilac hedge]

Even if its not ai it definetly looks like it lol

[blissful harbor]

thought we were past walls

[stray grove]

This response also reads like it’s AI generated lol

[sinful nimbus]

This is because generative AI was specifically trained to mimic formal speech, yes.

[stray grove]

Who calls it “generative AI”

[sinful nimbus]

What do you call it?

[stray grove]

Dead Internet theory

[sinful nimbus]

Also this isn't lore

Please address the points I made, thank you.

[stray grove]

Nah, don’t feel like it

[gentle aspen]

What did you notice?

[stray grove]

Thanks for taking the time though

[sinful nimbus]

Ugh

Your welcome for the time, The Return of the King

[gentle aspen]

*You’re

[sinful nimbus]

I can't with this right now

[gentle aspen]

I apologize

[grizzled summit]

You know the guy who you look for in the A Vassal Lost quest ?

[stray grove]

Yeah

Her name is Sula

[lapis creek]

the italics really did it for me

i love your attention to detail

[frosty gate]

The let's break it down does sound like Ai but I do acknowledge my guy glows

[grizzled summit]

I noticed he weirdly looks like the NPC Jiji from hollow knight in dirtmouth

[frosty gate]

But, dumb question right, maybe is it because the guy carries an Ever loom everywhere?

[foggy fractal]

instead of saying let's break it down, we should say let's get down to business 🗣️

[stray grove]

That’s right!

[sinful nimbus]

Thank you!

[blissful harbor]

they’re both vassals

[frosty gate]

Hence why he glows

[stray grove]

Sula and Jiji are both vassals

Hence their similarities

[gentle aspen]

why would that be the case

[sinful nimbus]

That would be kinda strange with Emilitia's dialogue

[gentle aspen]

the guy is a light himself

[grizzled summit]

Wow thanks for your clarification !

[random harbor]

Emilitia - Reacting to items - Offering Delicate Flower

What a curious specimen. Hah! Though even its pure aura is no match for the light of our dear King.
Keep your faint flora, bug. I've enough of my own to tend and surely you'd agree that mine are far finer.

@kingoclowns used /npcs misc name: Emilitia category: Reacting to items dialogue: Offering Delicate Flower

[edgy nebula]

is it ever actually stated that jiji is a vassal

[stray grove]

Thanks Dead Joker this convinced me

I concede that the Pale King glows

WL’s SS dialogue is definitely strange in light of this haha!

[gentle aspen]

she shares the same masters as jinn

[stray grove]

(See what I did there?)

[gentle aspen]

Yes you’re very clever

[stray grove]

But the lighthouses are also shown to repel void all on their own

[edgy nebula]

yeah but couldnt she work some other job

i dont think jinn ever calls jiji her vassal

[stray grove]

So it seems more reasonable to say it’s a retcon, or more accurately an inconsistency

[gentle aspen]

who said jinn’s the vasee

(i don’t know the proper term)

[frosty gate]

I mean I'm just throwing spaghetti at a wall here honestly, not much of a theory. The guy is light because people refer to him as such, but what if he has an everbloom on him and that's why they see that glow

It is a stupid argument and I'm less than willing to defend it honestly

I just had that thought

[edgy nebula]

rotk is calling jiji a vassal, presumably to jinn

[frosty gate]

Or maybe its both he glows and the Everbloom also boosts the glow or something

[sinful nimbus]

Hmmm, I don't like accusing the devs of putting a retcon/inconsistency in the game unless there is no other explanation

[stray grove]

What other explanation is there

[sinful nimbus]

That's why I proposed that the White Lady we meet isn't an accurate portrayal

[frosty gate]

Which they did often in this game

[gentle aspen]

if it was a glow boost why would emilitia insult the everbloom by saying it can’t even measure up to their god king

[stray grove]

Hmm, I don’t like accusing the devs of putting an expositional NPC with misleading dialogue in the game unless there is no other explanation

[frosty gate]

First, fuck Emilitia.
Second, I will not argue to defend my theory but that is a weird interaction. "The first light" glowing less the a Pale Being?

[limpid summit]

It’s a lighthouse

[gentle aspen]

man fuck the first light bullshit bro

[foggy fractal]

true !

[frosty gate]

Agree I HATE EVERYTHING RELATED TO THE EVERBLOOM

[gentle aspen]

it’s a fucking flower that breaks in a puddle of void doing the singular thing it is made to do

first light is too much aura for that fuck ass flora

[foggy fractal]

epic fail

[gentle aspen]

it’s a night light at best

[stray grove]

It’s a different kind of light, it doesn’t have to be brighter

[frosty gate]

Most sense spoken for an hour at the very least

Fuck I hate everything related to repelling the Abyss

[limpid summit]

What if WL is just being schizophrenic as she’s know to do (pertinant) and she actually meant to say worst light

[foggy fractal]

maybe

[frosty gate]

I agree this would be the case

[sinful nimbus]

It makes the world feel more alive for characters to get stuff wrong, y'know? It also fleshes out Hornet's character, she's never seen the Pale King and frankly doesn't like him, so her memory validating this belief makes perfect sense, while also tying into the theme of not really being able to remember the past ("...But to recall these words, in time so far... Will you even remember me, child? Could you?...")

[stray grove]

This makes no sense from a narrative standpoint

[frosty gate]

Oh shit

[gentle aspen]

that only really works when there’s reason to doubt in universe

[frosty gate]

She wasn't crazy by this point I think

[stray grove]

Why would TC just have an NPC give inaccurate information without indicating that or correcting the misconception

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not entirely sure Team Cherry prioritizes narrative over worldbuilding 😅

[gentle aspen]

compare WL in the first and second game

[stray grove]

Also Silksong is rife with inconsistency

Many such cases!

[gentle aspen]

First game she does say wrong stuff but it is clearly because of misconceptions about vessels

[stray grove]

She also admits her mistake and corrects it once she has reason to

[gentle aspen]

in the second game it’s just said face value and supported by dialogue gameplay and narrative

[sinful nimbus]

There is!

[gentle aspen]

there’s nothing there to assert she’s lying or wrong here

[stray grove]

You took the words out of my mouth

The functionality of the everbloom supports her dialogue

[gentle aspen]

it just seems like the second game decided to change the story behind the delicate flower

[sinful nimbus]

Did you read the wall I sent earlier?

[gentle aspen]

for some reason a lot of unrelated people also know what the everbloom is and what it does

[frosty gate]

Agree if the WL of RM is just a memory of what Hornet herself saw in WL, then it makes sense she would be wrong since the memory would only have the knowledge that Hornet has

[sinful nimbus]

If you want to analyze it from a writing standpoint, I understand, but I like to approach the story from the lens of "How can I make this work and fit within the world?"

[gentle aspen]

if I am to assume the shamans are pharloomian and haven’t immigrated/emigrated elsewhere they just know of the flower’s existence and think it’s some myth

[sinful nimbus]

And I mean its not like the alternative would be satisfying writing, either.

[gentle aspen]

it didn’t have this mythic reverence in the first game

WL just says “I didn’t make that, came from lands serene. Wouldn’t keep it close if I were you.”

And then in the second game she says its “our family’s only defense against the dark, the first light” like it’s the pope

It just clearly seems like they decided to go in a different direction with it

[limpid summit]

I dont think they should have had this first light come from this random knight

Why would they contextualize it like that and then go over it it makes the flower seem so disconnected

[frosty gate]

That doesn't make it any more satisfying honestly. But honestly, I really dislike Everbloom discussion because it all feels unsatisfying

The conclusion of the Everbloom debate at the end is that TC most likely changed the vision of what they had in mind about the Flower

Which, in a way is cool, but when you leave it vague and unexplained

It just makes room for a lot of vague debate with different interpretations to different sources

Trying to give it an explanation in-game, which is what Star seems to be trying to do is nothing crazy honestly

Yes, TC changed their minds and sure it doesn't make sense

But what if we made it make sense?

Idk, Everbloom discussion is tiring and unsatisfying all the time

Some of the lore discussion is just as tiring a lot of the time, since things are left so damn vague, you can only make speculate to tie things together, but not always will people agree

But in the end, yall need to chill and agree to disagree

That's how I've been able to deal with some discussion here without wanting to murder someone

[foggy fractal]

nooo don't murder me :C

[frosty gate]

I've never disagreed with you Andy, the top argument defuser

[foggy fractal]

yay

[silk dirge]

guys whats the lore of this character why are they on top of the citadel in my silksong poster(i just want to post this cool ass poster again)

i wonder if theres any cool hidden details in here

[frosty gate]

I see Lace is a bit Lost up there

[silk dirge]

the pilgrim you find in the bone bottom station is in here for some reason

kinda random character to include lol

but i dont care

this poster is so good

[frosty gate]

I don't see them, do you mean Fearful?

[silk dirge]

i think so

[foggy fractal]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1346289074947883031/1430544968304431168/G3UKfRyW8AgaE0p.gif

[silk dirge]

yeah this guy

[foggy fractal]

one could even say that she's a Lost Lace ?

y'know speaking of fearful pilgrim, its the moment I saw her that I realized "wow I'm really playing silksong after all these years"

[graceful grail]

Are the clover dancers effectively the same person?

[frosty gate]

No

They're two different dudes

Equally gay

Who look similar

Or the same, probably the same species or whatever

[frosty gate]

But GP 1 and GP 2 are different people, there's evidence to support this

(Evidence being, Cogwork Dancers)

[plain gazelle]

hubby probably just looks ghostly in the clover dancer fight because green prince can't fully remember him anymore

[foggy fractal]

no, green prince and his partner are different people
cogwork dancers was however, made with just the soul of green prince's partner

Green Prince: "The dancers… they were the last free act of my partner ... His whole he gave, in desperate trade to see our own caves left safe. His shell and soul became the mould."

Hunter's journal: "Two cogwork bugs, and yet the soul seemed singular?"

[gentle aspen]

two different people with entwined lover souls all that sappy shit

[edgy nebula]

clover dancer's journal entry says "To love someone so similar to themselves, is that selfless or vain?" but that could just be her talking about their appearance

[opal magnet]

I think I just realized something
Radiance infection looks like lifeblood but orange
What if rather than lifeblood looking like radiance, radiance gained control over some lifeblood to spread her infection?
And thats why the most infected areas look lifeblood infected

[opal magnet]

The reason this is here is because
The act 3 lifeblood infection certainly shows that lifeblood without radiance control is able to infect on the same level but FASTER than the radiance

Broken Vessel gives some extremely strong evidence for this

[opal magnet]

Yep
Radiance just reused Lifebloods natural ability to infect, thus the similarity few realized due to the ban.
Near all areas infected without lifeblood nearby are just the creatures and some plants.
Pale king anti-drug laws accidentally nerfed radiance.

[sinful nimbus]

Lightblood

[limpid summit]

N*noso returning to wormways in act 3 must have felt like Einstein discovering the theory of relativity

[frosty gate]

Oh we talking Lifeblood now? Nice

[limpid summit]

I do appreciate how lifeblood infection is much more physical

At least it isn’t literally just infection

I hope if LBB is connected it’s more of a species or byproduct of a Lifeblood infection rather than some kind of ruling HB

[frosty gate]

This might be a dumb question

But why is Nightmare Heart so different?

This kinda just occurred to me

Nightmare Heart is one hell of a different HB

[sinful nimbus]

Well I mean the only thing that connects higher beings is that they are deities

There can be weird ones and its not out of place

[plain gazelle]

yeah I was gonna say pretty much every higher being we've seen has operated pretty differently, the common thread is just wanting to have lesser bugs to worship them

[frosty gate]

Yeah but they are all kinda... Physical, you know what I mean?

[sinful nimbus]

Not Radiance

[frosty gate]

NH is the only one who uses an "Avatar"

[sinful nimbus]

That's NMH's solution to the same problem Rad faced

As in existing in the dream realm and all that

[frosty gate]

But the Heart has followers no?

Radiance used the Infection because she was losing hers

And she didn't use an Avatar or anything, she was throwing hands herself

[sinful nimbus]

The hearts followers are its own creations that are stated to in actuality be extensions of itself

With the exception of Divine and Brumm

[frosty gate]

I do not remember any of this

[sinful nimbus]

You mean the Grimmkin?

White Lady says the troupe is "all and one, clan and master"

They are also all just nightmare essence ghosts

[frosty gate]

Jesus I absolutely forgot all this bs, never mind

This dude has two actual followers and a bunch of miniselves?

Well, 4 counting the things that pull the tents

[sinful nimbus]

We taught this chimpanzee to understand Grimm Troupe lore and he hanged himself

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[dire lynx]

grimmsteed

[frosty gate]

That's really cool, I completely forgot about the Trouoe working that way

I remembered the Ritual and all that

I forgot all about the Kin

[sinful nimbus]

Nightmare Heart spectating Nightmare Heart dancing in front of the Nightmare Heart so it can grow the Nightmare Heart

[dire lynx]

and clapping for itself lmao

[frosty gate]

That does answer my question, although the heart is still fucking weird in comparison.

You are right tho, all HBs work differently

[frosty gate]

This is just a fucking Brandon Sanderson reference I hate reading Cosmere books

[opal magnet]

There is a higher being thats a giant fish somewhere

[sinful nimbus]

The other weird thing about the heart is that its implied to be sort of a manifestation of the entire nightmare realm

Deepest power... the Heart...
Scattered lands... Nightmare binds all...

One realm now must stay apart,
Darkest reaches, beating red,
Terror of sleep. The Nightmare's Heart

S tier Higher Being

[halcyon merlin]

hollow knight beach episode

[plain gazelle]

it seems to have a much lighter footprint than other higher beings though. swoop into a dying kingdom, suck up some nightmare energy, move on.

[sinful nimbus]

See that's why its the goat

It only cares about living for as long as possible and roleplaying with itself

[frosty gate]

Yes, honestly I think it's the coolest one

And it seems the only successful one at keeping itself going

Without pissing off any randos

The Wyrm could never

[sinful nimbus]

It pisses off Elderbug

[frosty gate]

Go to sleep grandpa

[sinful nimbus]

Ellina stops by and calls Grimm charismatic though

[frosty gate]

Or actually don't it's probably the worst time to sleep

[sinful nimbus]

It also becomes homies with The Knight

[frosty gate]

I do wonder, if we got Grimm Troupe in 2025 for Hollow Knight

Would it have its own ending?

I imagine Cursed ending from Silksong but with Grimm child taking over the Infection

[sinful nimbus]

Wouldn't really warrant one imo

[frosty gate]

Which would be BADASS

[sinful nimbus]

We have a cursed child ending because the bud messes with bind and they kinda had to give an explanation for what would happen

[frosty gate]

Fair enough

A man can dream tho

[halcyon merlin]

grimmchild takes over the void

[limpid summit]

Could the Troupe even come to Pharloom in act 3

[halcyon merlin]

i don't think so

[limpid summit]

Grimm doesn’t enter Hallownest till way after it falls but is that just because the big guy didn’t light the lantern early enough

[halcyon merlin]

it isn't really considered a dead kingdom is it

[frosty gate]

Oh yeah I kept saying, the Heart is weird, it's the only one that doesn't have a proper body and uses and avatar.

The rest of the HBs are themselves you know? They're not the Heart or the Brain or whatever, they have their own presence, it's weird

The Heart always felt more ominous that the rest of HBs

[limpid summit]

Does NMH have to wait a little bit for a kingdom to fall

[frosty gate]

Like it's part of a bigger thing

[halcyon merlin]

it has to contain nightmare essence for the ritual

because of how hallownest is now it had that esence

essence

[frosty gate]

I believe that's what it's said, yes

I feel like the Troupe could come and Hornet would pay them no mind tho

I feel like she wouldn't be the type to indulge in the ritual

[plain gazelle]

with how they justify most of hornet's actions it would be pretty consistent for her to just say "okay, if i agree you help you you'll fuck off out of this kingdom and give me a power up, right?"

[frosty gate]

"A reward you say?"

[halcyon merlin]

technically the grimm troupe isn't doing anything wrong

[frosty gate]

Well, yeah

They kinda just feast on misery?

Which is surprisingly harmless

[plain gazelle]

to be fair white lady implies that ruling a whole kingdom isn't totally out of the question for NMH's ambitions

[frosty gate]

You'd think the God called NIGHTMARE HEART who's avatar is Grimm and has a whole Halloween theme would be more evil

[plain gazelle]

"I know you creature, and the form time shall bring. You may be all and one, clan and master, but this land shall never bear so foreign a king."

(which is an ironic thing to say coming from someone who married a foreign king)

[sinful nimbus]

Bear as in bear a fruit

She's in denial about Hallownest being dead

[frosty gate]

As in bear a child

A Grimmchild

[opal magnet]

This gave me a very cursed thought for a few moments, related to The White Lady

[frosty gate]

Which is really sad because she probably knows it's dead better than anyone

[frosty gate]

... I'm listening...

[crystal marsh]

that doesn't necessarily mean what you think it does

[crystal marsh]

it's more or less this

[plain gazelle]

i feel like that's a hard reading given she is literally staring at and talking to proof that the land has born the child. surely it makes sense to be "bear" as in "tolerate"

[sinful nimbus]

That would also work

Point is its not really ruling Hallownest or anything

[crystal marsh]

i mean, her opinion means jack shit

[frosty gate]

And it doesn't try to

[crystal marsh]

what matters is TK's choice, not her opinion

it can choose to either support the Troupe/Heart, or banish them

[frosty gate]

Which again, it's weird, wouldn't it try to take over the Dream realm with Rad dead?

[crystal marsh]

no, because Radiance isn't the ruler of the dream realm

[frosty gate]

Unless it really doesn't give a shit

[crystal marsh]

the dream realm and nightmare realm, while once the same, are now 2 different planes

[sinful nimbus]

Dunno why it would care

[crystal marsh]

it's very unclear if an equal to the Heart exists in the regular dream realm or not

[frosty gate]

No but like, it's the main deity inside of it, if she's dead it's FRS

[sinful nimbus]

NMH really doesn't do much other than prolong itself and like Serrara pointed out its in an entirely different portion of the dream expanse

[crystal marsh]

there's many beings with connections to the realm and Radiance isn't the only one with dream powers

[sinful nimbus]

Rad was the top dog of Hallownest's dream realm tbf

[opal magnet]

The giant fish
(Whale)

[frosty gate]

I know there are plenty, I just say that Radiance is the top of the dream realm in Hallownest at the very least

[opal magnet]

Radiance has max range based on memory
We don't know this for sure

[tawdry flare]

Unn was the goat though

[crystal marsh]

what do you mean by "top"

[opal magnet]

900,000 meters away, John Dreammaster, the true master of the dream realm, ascended during the Heinen era

[sinful nimbus]

Unn's ONE (1) feat had her conked out for generations dawg 💔

[tawdry flare]

She’s just too merciful

[frosty gate]

That's true, but to pass the chance to just takeover? What a goat

[opal magnet]

If only we knew the process to ascend a normal bug to higher being besides killing/absorbing an existing higher being

[sinful nimbus]

TK did it

[opal magnet]

They were anything but normal bug

Born of 2 gods

[sinful nimbus]

Neither is Hornet tbf

They're both pretty magical

I'm doubtful your average joe could become a higher being

[tawdry flare]

Hornet is born of 1.5 gods so

[frosty gate]

I honestly don't know what to say. She's basically the one in the Dream Realm putting everyone into a dream state through an infection

[opal magnet]

Yeah
Difference is
Child of gods infused with god^2
Child of gods

[tawdry flare]

She could probably pull it off with enough soul

[sinful nimbus]

This doesn't matter really

[crystal marsh]

HB status isn't something that genetics can carry

[sinful nimbus]

Where you draw the line is pretty arbitrary they both became higher beings through different methods

[opal magnet]

I'm taking like
How do we ascend a bug like Sherma
Or Skarrsinger Karmelita

[crystal marsh]

it's an intangible quality

[frosty gate]

Im fully convinced its about the followers

Enough followers could make a bug a HB

There has to be some exceptions tho

[frosty gate]

Correction, not followers perse

People who fear or are devoted to you I guess??

[sinful nimbus]

Power level isn't really indicated to be related to your number of worshippers, especially for the average joe

[opal magnet]

That
Makes a lot of sense
Seems there is a factor of "quality /dedication" of followers due to small count for nightmare heart
But for the dream things makes sense, all of the dream bosses but green prince have such, while green prince had many and absorbed power from feats and ruling

[plain gazelle]

i think it's a fundamentally different form of life

higher beings i mean

[frosty gate]

The Wyrm was powerful even before being King, just because it's a terraformimg mythical creature

[dire lynx]

then why arent the old hearts higher? they certainly have more followers than the nightmare heart or white lady. gms was powerful before she had her weavers

[frosty gate]

I mean not really the power level but all the HBs share the fact that they need followers in some way or another

[opal magnet]

Borne higher vs on the path to becoming such

[sinful nimbus]

Not WL or GMS

Neither does Rad

[frosty gate]

Ok, I really don't get GMS

[plain gazelle]

well it's shown that they innately desire followers, only for NMH is it suggested that it's for sustaining itself

[frosty gate]

Rad had the moths

[opal magnet]

Thats why they were able to resist her power and thread

[dire lynx]

unn also wasnt worshipped and already had power enough to create greenpath and the mosskin

[sinful nimbus]

Yes she needs to exist in a dream one way or another but worshipping being necessary or wtv isn't indicated

[frosty gate]

Wait actually, GMS does need followers

Or at the very least wants them

That's why she made the Weavers

They're there to praise her

WL makes no sense though

[sinful nimbus]

I think it would be weird to chalk that up to an innate quality of her being instead of her being an awful person who constantly needs validation and loyalty

[opal magnet]

Followers boost beings, and can make bugs higher with enough.
Losing them may weaken a higher being but a higher being once achieving such status cannot lose it.

[plain gazelle]

WL married into her followers

[frosty gate]

I don't chalk it down, I'm a number one hater of both GMS and Weavers

[sinful nimbus]

White Lady wanting/needing followers is fairly baseless

[frosty gate]

But she did want them to Pray for her

[sinful nimbus]

PK was the main center of worship

[plain gazelle]

yes, for white lady it's just coming up with something to fit the pattern of all the others, and with hornet's own words (that pale beings desire domination)

[frosty gate]

Rad had the Moths
Unn the Moss
NMH the Grimmkim I guess? Which is him role playing as others
GMS made the Weavers
PK made a whole kingdom

[opal magnet]

In a fistfight (no powers) pale king solos radiance

[frosty gate]

Who am I missing

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet's words are peculiar and not really consistent with what we see in Hollow Knight so I'm not entirely sure what to make of them

[dire lynx]

gods of thunder and rain had the godseekers

[sinful nimbus]

But that is how WL is framed in Silksong I'd agree

[frosty gate]

So it seems

WL has no followers and she doesn't want them either

Which again it's weird

Maybe Roots work differently?

[sinful nimbus]

Lord of Shades seems to fit the bill of a "godlike being" and "existing above all others", which is how Team Cherry defined higher beings

[opal magnet]

Seemingly if we got nearly all of pharloom to worship one being (not just like, worship and be followers of), that being could be ascended to higher being

[sinful nimbus]

Which is to say I don't think it makes sense to generalize them beyond being deities

[plain gazelle]

well WL's whole theme/element is domesticity and reproduction so it makes sense for her means of acquiring followers being marrying into a huge kingdom and having lots of kids

[frosty gate]

LoS also has Followers

[opal magnet]

There is a difference between a god and higher being

[sinful nimbus]

Does it

[frosty gate]

I don't think it wanted them tho

[dire lynx]

the thing with all these though is that they already had their power before being worshipped

[opal magnet]

As said, many beings claiming themself a god fail to live up to such

[sinful nimbus]

Team Cherry described them as godlike entities and that's clearly what they are, so not really (Godseeker uses the term in a unique context that isn't relevant to the current conversation)

[frosty gate]

I mean, the Godseeker made the first mistake of boosting it, after killing them it's just the Siblings I guess

[sinful nimbus]

That's only in ETV

[opal magnet]

A higher being within the hollow Knight cinematic universe is a god, but a god is not exactly a higher being
This is per hornets dialogue about living up to the title

[frosty gate]

True, I have no answer about DNM to be honest