sk-lore

[fresh badger]

Also the marrow is also called like bonelands

And iirc some of those enemies descriptions reference hardened features made of bone

[craggy smelt]

dem bones

[viscid ridge]

There are bugs with bones, and bugs with shells, and soft bodied bugs like slugs. Usually bugs that have shells dont have bones, and vise versa, but bugs that actually have bones in their soft bodies still seem to have bone masks, like the gruzz mother for example. But unless proven wrong i dont think wr have proof that there are bugs that both have shells and bones at the same time.

[graceful grail]

Guys, could GMS used to be the same kind of bug as Zemer??

[craggy smelt]

nah

GMS is a spider

ze'mer is like a cockroach or something

[graceful grail]

No, Pharlids are the spider part right??

[craggy smelt]

she got the right number of limbs

[graceful grail]

I was just about to send this

That dosent mean spider though.

[austere aurora]

does the name pious isamor have any origin in a real language?

[spark valve]

pious is just a normal word

isamor not really

[plain gazelle]

the citadel names are all just italian/latin-sounding to fit with the catholic theming

[frosty gate]

Some of them also use Latin words as gibberish

The Maestros straight up say "Colores"

[dire lynx]

zemer is a flower, no?

[spark valve]

no

[dire lynx]

what makes you say that?

[stray grove]

She’s… just not a flower look at her

[dire lynx]

flip her upside down

[sharp ember]

hear me out:
|| hornet is the pale king!||

[dire lynx]

game theory ahh

[dire lynx]

current day shes wilted

[frosty gate]

She does not look like a flower dude

[spark valve]

this is not a flower

[stray grove]

Lmao

[foggy fractal]

shame

[stray grove]

You could say a flower is one of her design inspirations but her literally being a flower? Uh no

She is clearly a bug

[dire lynx]

she doesnt even have eyes

[spark valve]

she probably does

[blissful harbor]

blocked by her hair

she’s mysterious

[sharp ember]

ooooooh

[blissful harbor]

that’s what the shading implies to me at least

[foggy fractal]

... say that again ?

[dire lynx]

i wouldnt say shes clearly anything, her design is quite abstract

[stray grove]

“Quite abstract” she’s a bug in a game about bugs where everything is a bug she’s just a little weird

Are you seriously telling me it’s somehow more likely she’s a sapient flower

[dire lynx]

nyleth, greyroot, the mushrooms, white lady, isma:

[stray grove]

🥴

[dire lynx]

amazing counterarguement to being pointed to living plants

[spark valve]

except... ze'mer isn't one of them...

[dire lynx]

prove it

[stray grove]

Nyleth and Isma are also bugs

WL is a literal deity

[spark valve]

you can look at her she lacks any plant features and is just a bug

[stray grove]

Nah nah if you look at her upside down her silhouette vaguely resembles a flower

[dire lynx]

nyleth is a plant, isma is debatable

[spark valve]

you just posted a picture of her silhouette upside down and screamed she was a flower she isn't and her silhouette doesn't even look like one

[stray grove]

You know the distinction isn’t as obvious as you make it out to be right

Plant like bugs exist

Nyleth and Isma’s wanderer forms are definitely bug like

[foggy fractal]

who is this return of the king referencing ? perhaps the PALE king ?

[stray grove]

Anyway nothing indicates Ze’mer is a plant

She is just a bug look at her

[dire lynx]

she looks like a white and grey blob

i dont really care what you guys think she is, ive always seen her as a wilted flower, you can see a bug

[blissful harbor]

she always gave me silverfish vibes

[dire lynx]

nyleth wanderer form?

thats something i actually want to see

any proof of that?

[limpid summit]

I thought she was a big nose when I first played

Or like one of those gnomes that’s half beard

[edgy nebula]

no

[dire lynx]

wow

[stray grove]

If you’re claiming she and Isma are similar beings that necessarily means they follow a similar life cycle
Nyleth is described as a wandering seed

The form we see her in is analogous to the form Isma takes in the Grove

She likely had another form prior to that which we don’t see, similar to Isma

But we ofc do see Isma’s, and it closely resembles a bug

[dire lynx]

i said theyre both plants, i disagree with them being the same species

[stray grove]

Nyleth is still described as a wandering seed, not a unique existence

[limpid summit]

Seed could be her title

[stray grove]

She’s not very mobile in her current form and can’t really wander

[stray grove]

?

It’s not capitalized

[limpid summit]

Neither are Wyrm and Root

In some cases

[sinful nimbus]

What cases

[stray grove]

What cases

[limpid summit]

🤖🤖🤖

[sinful nimbus]

How dare

[edgy nebula]

What cases

[limpid summit]

Lower case’s

I just said this

[stray grove]

Also “you too, distant shape”

[limpid summit]

Yeah

distant Shape

[edgy nebula]

i do honestly doubt nyleth and isma are the same species

[dire lynx]

i didnt say shes a unique existance, why put words in my mouth?

[edgy nebula]

similar no doubt, but the only real similarities they seem to share are the mask and creating plantlife

[stray grove]

Bramble... Root... Branch...
Is Nyleth a Root? Or would Bramble or Branch be the more accurate title

[limpid summit]

Arguing in bad faith is beneath you

[stray grove]

“The only similarities are they have the same face and do the same exact thing”

[edgy nebula]

nyleth is probably just a seed, the thing is we cant really tell cause the battle needolin dialogue is all lowercase, for some reason

[stray grove]

She’s not “just” a seed

[limpid summit]

Greyroot and WL

[dire lynx]

are we going to argue that sly has been to pharloom?

[stray grove]

But that logic Isma is also “just” a seed

[stray grove]

Why does it being lowercase matter

Wandering seed means what it says in the tin
Also you too distant shape

[stray grove]

They don’t do the same thing though

[sinful nimbus]

its lowercase to show that she's chill and casual like that

[limpid summit]

They’re sort of analogous

They don’t have to do the exact same thing to be the same species

Wyrms pull bugs into their thrall and have foresight

[stray grove]

But Nyleth and Isma do do the exact same thing

[limpid summit]

No they don’t

Isma creates acid blight

[stray grove]

They explicitly have a magical method of doing the former

[limpid summit]

She doesn’t actually do anything

[stray grove]

Which is unique

[limpid summit]

Why are we gassing her now

Weakest knight

[stray grove]

Oh my god

The grove????

[limpid summit]

It’s one tree

Her

She is the tree

[edgy nebula]

isma makes plants, but nyleth creates species

[stray grove]

She just isn’t as established as Nyleth but she has the beginnings of a unique ecosystem

[stray grove]

She makes plants

[sinful nimbus]

Where is Nyleth's dung beetle

[stray grove]

I don’t think she made the wood wasps and shit lol

They just live in the ecosystem she created and sustains

[edgy nebula]

seth dung beetle confirmed?

[limpid summit]

Barnacle bay

[sinful nimbus]

TRUE

[edgy nebula]

yeah not the wasps, but she made every other white plant thing you see

[limpid summit]

Ogrim in Poop Town would be genuinely good fanservice I would be happy

I would love to see the conversations him and Hornet have

[stray grove]

plant thing
So she makes plants

[sinful nimbus]

That would not be tuff and also they'd butcher his character

[stray grove]

Isma also gives rise to plant species

That isn’t a difference

[limpid summit]

I actually don’t really know why people die on the Isma Nyleth hill

[sinful nimbus]

If TC made Ogrim in 2025 they'd probably give him an arc about realizing PK was an evil king or wtv

[limpid summit]

Nyleth’s appearance looks sort of similar to Isma’s tree form

But that would be her in the past

Isma never looked like that in the past

She had a humanoid form

[stray grove]

Are you dense

The form we fight Nyleth in isn’t her wanderer form

It’s her rooted form 💀

She’s very old

[sinful nimbus]

I'm happy to have another Isma Nyleth believer in chat after yesterday

[dire lynx]

prove a wanderer form unc

[limpid summit]

Prove a wanderer form exists

[edgy nebula]

what if the nyleth statue in the shrine is actually nyleth and she's petrified wood

[stray grove]

That’s just what we’re calling Isma’s first form

[limpid summit]

“We”

[dire lynx]

whos we

[limpid summit]

You still have yet to provide meaningful connection

[stray grove]

I don’t have to prove that a wanderer form exists

If I can convince you of a meaningful connection the existence of a wanderer form is assumed

And so again

I refer to the striking similarities between Nyleth (and her creations) and Isma, particularly the mask and the grass skirt which are more or less identical

I refer to Nyleth being described as a wandering seed

[sinful nimbus]

I wouldn't go that far

[stray grove]

And “you too distant shape”

[sinful nimbus]

Nyleth's mask melds into her body in a weird way and has more eyes

[stray grove]

The eyes aren’t significant

[limpid summit]

They literally don’t look similar at all I don’t know what you’re talking about

[sinful nimbus]

They are when you're claiming resemblance

[stray grove]

Gahlia also have a different number of eyes to Nyleth

Are you claiming they’re unrelated

Obviously eye number is negligible

[sinful nimbus]

Do you think Gahlia are also wandering seeds blud

[limpid summit]

Neither Isma silhouette head nor her tree head look like Nyleth actually

[stray grove]

That’s besides the point

[limpid summit]

What is this similarity

That’s like saying Unn and Nuu look alike

[stray grove]

The grass skirt and the mask bruh

[sinful nimbus]

Waiter more handwaving please

[stray grove]

Shut up

Don’t make fun of me

I’m new here

[limpid summit]

I understand

[sinful nimbus]

It shows

[limpid summit]

This is a bit of a rough place

You’re going to have to get used to a little jab it’s all in good fun

Also I notice your name is the “Return of the King”

Yet you say you’re new

[stray grove]

It’s a reference to my favorite character

And lotr

But that’s not for this channel

Anyway

[limpid summit]

I’m sorry they really just don’t look alike at all

And it’s not like Isma had some sort of middle stage where she looked like that

Her tree form isn’t vastly different

[sinful nimbus]

Where the heck are Nyleth's arms lmfao

[stray grove]

Not really

[edgy nebula]

how does isma get that pristine trolls haircut

[stray grove]

They both have a grass skirt

They both have the same mask

And their roots follow a similar pattern

[dire lynx]

nyleth mask is a very different shape

[stray grove]

We don’t see Isma dislodge herself from the wall either

[limpid summit]

What do you mean a grass skirt

Those are the petals of a flower

[stray grove]

Flower skirt leaf skirt whatever

[limpid summit]

Dude are you even looking at the same pictures we’re looking at

[sinful nimbus]

Now now now why would they both give the feminine plant characters this design element

[limpid summit]

Same mask grass skirt

[edgy nebula]

eeeehhh it's similar but the eyes are a bit low

[stray grove]

The eyes aren’t significant

Again, Gahlia

[edgy nebula]

im defending you bro

[dire lynx]

i used mine because it shows the top of the mask, which is a different shape

[stray grove]

ik I’m adding to that

The mask is definitely similar idk how you could argue otherwise

[sinful nimbus]

Gahlia aren't wandering seeds

[limpid summit]

Nyleth has a pollenica core a weird little tuft of leaf hair a stringier body a wider “skirt” if you can even call it that

[stray grove]

Ok but like even beyond the resemblance they literally do the same shit

[limpid summit]

IMO the dissimilarities are much clearer

[stray grove]

They are different entities yes

[sinful nimbus]

Also they don't have 6 eyes they have the little tiny fake eyes at the top of the head which isn't really the same deal (Even PK statues have this design element)

[limpid summit]

Wow

[stray grove]

Obviously they don’t look exactly the same

Neither do Greyroot and WL and yet the similarities are likely intentional

[sinful nimbus]

Holy backpedal

[stray grove]

What backpedal

[limpid summit]

Okay

So Roots are a species then

[sinful nimbus]

Sealioning

[limpid summit]

Like Seeds

Right

[stray grove]

Physical resemblance isn’t very strong evidence in the first instance

I mentioned it along with other shit

[sinful nimbus]

Why were you arguing it then

[stray grove]

Because it’s one of many things I listed

[sinful nimbus]

OK let us move on then

[stray grove]

For some reason you focused on that

Probably because you have no refutation for the rest

[sinful nimbus]

Isma turning into a unique ecosystem made her immobile and unresponsive

[frigid belfry]

still waiting for steel dlc announcements at the game awards today

[sinful nimbus]

Nyleth is still kicking

[stray grove]

You don’t know that

Isma is still in the process of molting

[limpid summit]

WE will be playing Fortnite with our Carti skins

[sinful nimbus]

Have you played the first game dawg

[dire lynx]

shes dead bro

[stray grove]

Isma’s still in the process of moving to the next stage of her life though

[sinful nimbus]

I'm so sick of these Silksong fans coming into our channel trying to argue the lore of a game they haven't even played

[stray grove]

Did you read the dialogue

[limpid summit]

Why would Ogrim just up and leave

[stray grove]

No she’s not

[sinful nimbus]

Proof?

[stray grove]

He doesn’t

[limpid summit]

He literally does

[stray grove]

No he doesn’t did you play the game

[limpid summit]

Okay

[frigid belfry]

this is your fatal flaw, all my lore takes are objectively correct, because i am ari's secret account

[sinful nimbus]

Are we looking at Isma in Isma's Grove and thinking "Yeah she'll come back after this guys trust" 🥀

[stray grove]

“I'm so sick of these Silksong fans coming into our channel trying to argue the lore of a game they haven't even played”

[limpid summit]

What happens when you beat White Defender five times

[frigid belfry]

isma is void, end of debate

[sinful nimbus]

Ugh

[limpid summit]

Yeah okay bro

[crystal marsh]

no memes

[stray grove]

So, based on the plants' appearing to be an extension of her original form, her upright position (one unnatural to die in,) and the fact that Ogrim refers to her tear, also a fruit, as a blessing, it is plausible that she may not be dead, and her current position is the result of her merely advancing to another stage in her life cycle in which she grows outwards and takes root as a plant. Also, if there was no plant life present before her retreat to the area now known as Isma's Grove and her incorporation into the area, then the Dung Defender would have little cause to refer to it as a "grove" unless he already knows of her fate. It is possible that Dung Defender is aware of her situation, my evidence being that he calls the area a grove, defends it from all save those who have demonstrated "honour in combat," and recognizes the Knight's having consumed Isma's Tear as her blessing. If, as he says, she judged the Knight to be of good character prior to bestowing the tear, that would indicate that she is still, somehow, alive and conscious within the grove. Furthermore, Isma’s Tear both being retrieved from the plants of Isma’s Grove and not her shell and being a fruit also suggest that the plants which appear to have overtaken her are, in fact, extensions of her body.

[sinful nimbus]

Lmao you sure typed that quick buddy

Is this chatGPT

[limpid summit]

Wow just go and post walls derailing conversation

You sure you’re new here

This has old regular written all over it

[stray grove]

I didn’t write this

My friend did

[frigid belfry]

not a meme

[limpid summit]

“Defends it from all save those who have demonstrated ‘honor in combat’”

[dire lynx]

white lady still thinks dryya is alive btw

[sinful nimbus]

OK let me read it it might take a while due to the lack of formatting

[limpid summit]

Bro left it to the mercy of the Hwurmps

[dire lynx]

is she also growing

[stray grove]

Irrelevant

[limpid summit]

Wdym judged the knight to be of good character

[stray grove]

Like 💀

[limpid summit]

Ogrim is just saying shit bro

It’s fruit from her tree

[dire lynx]

you used ogrims continued guardianship as evidence shes alive

[limpid summit]

It’s gonna grow anyway

[stray grove]

There are many reasons why WL may think Dryya is still alive

[limpid summit]

Oh is her world sense malfunctioning

Cause she does have world sense right

[stray grove]

This doesn’t mean Ogrim’s continued guardianship isn’t compelling evidence

[dire lynx]

its not

[stray grove]

What’s that

[limpid summit]

It isn’t

He literally leaves her

Goodbye isma

[stray grove]

NO HE DOESN’T

WHEN?

[limpid summit]

Bro

What happens when you beat White Defender five times

[edgy nebula]

i think we should discuss why ogrim goes to sleep for the whole game after you fight him

[limpid summit]

You wake up yap to him he leaves

[sinful nimbus]

OK, as I've already clarified, I agree with the lifecycle thing, so half of this is irrelevant (This is the issue with posting walls instead of engaging with the convo)

The stuff about her still having agency though is nonsense, Ogrim is obviously coping that's the point of his character

[stray grove]

You think he leaves the kingdom???

[limpid summit]

Yeah exactly

He also sleeps like a log

[stray grove]

WHAT

[limpid summit]

Bum ass

[visual glacier]

He’s tired

[sinful nimbus]

WHAT
I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS
NO WAY
SOMEONE DISAGREED WITH ME???

[visual glacier]

The switch was already hit so he has nothing left to defend or something

[dire lynx]

he wakes up after you beat him five times

[sinful nimbus]

The world doesn't revolve around you

[stray grove]

“Guys the NPC whose entire purpose is to provide exposition is lying for no reason”

I will admit I didn’t actually read the wall

But I trust the person who wrote it more than you, sorry

[limpid summit]

Dude you didn’t play the game did you

[sinful nimbus]

When its meaningfully indicated that he's wrong yeah

[dire lynx]

hes not lying, just unaware

[limpid summit]

White Defender is literally us beating the cope out of him

And you have to get Isma’s Tear to fight WD anyway

Without using skips

[sinful nimbus]

Maybe for the better its not very well written

[stray grove]

Why would he be unaware when it’s implied he has an understanding of her life cycle

What does Ogrim there’s no time mean

Does that not suggest she was aware

[limpid summit]

I’m about to die

[stray grove]

Why is she still producing acid

Why did she grow into an ecosystem

[limpid summit]

Death acid

[stray grove]

Why does she have a fruit

[edgy nebula]

crazy how we literally crush ogrim's dreams

[dire lynx]

green prince:

[sinful nimbus]

He knows about the lifecycle but Isma as she currently is is clearly not as active as Nyleth like just look at her

[edgy nebula]

we make the love of his life disappear infront of him and he cries

[stray grove]

Why are the vines extensions of her

You haven’t addressed any of the real evidence

[stray grove]

Nyleth isn’t very active either LMAO

Horner fights her in a memory

[limpid summit]

First he wants to meet PK and the Knights in Hallownest reborn
Then he just wants to protect existing Hallownest
Then he acknowledges Hallownest is dead and promises to save it
Then he just says he’ll see them again

We literally kill his hopes over and over again until he gets real

[visual glacier]

Homer

[limpid summit]

That’s his post fight dialogue

[stray grove]

AppleEgg you aren’t engaging in good faith so I’m ignoring you

Starpengu thank you for being respectful

[limpid summit]

Domer🟢
Domer🔵
Domer🟣
Domer🔴

[stray grove]

Ok guys dead topic

[limpid summit]

I’m literally replying to bobbitt

[visual glacier]

Domer ⚠️

[stray grove]

Let’s talk about something else now

I’m bored

[limpid summit]

Good backpedal

But you’re right

[stray grove]

I mean I already won so yea

What do you want to talk about

[dire lynx]

lol, absolutley not

[edgy nebula]

lets discuss karak

[visual glacier]

What about it?

[stray grove]

Minor spelling mistake

[dire lynx]

khann is tuff

[limpid summit]

Khann is tuff

But he’s gotta be the second weakest heart physically

[edgy nebula]

khann is tuff

[visual glacier]

True

[stray grove]

Based on what

[limpid summit]

I wish his gauntlet was easier his boss fight harder

His coral control is extremely slow

Karm could blitz him

[stray grove]

You do realize the difficulty of the boss fight doesn’t translate to canonical strength

[edgy nebula]

we shouldnt take boss balancing for lore confirmation

[stray grove]

It’s also subjective

[visual glacier]

Idk Pollip heart is pretty weak

[limpid summit]

It’s not subjective

[edgy nebula]

also he has more hp ingame than karmelita so he blitzes her actually...

[sinful nimbus]

7 years and they're still making enemies that just spam projectiles instead of real attacks 🥀

[limpid summit]

He’s slower than Karak Gor

Bum sat on his throne all day

[dire lynx]

game balance does not indicate lore

[edgy nebula]

his army was utterly loyal and faithful to him, surely there was a reason to be

[stray grove]

What are you talking about AppleEgg

That isn’t lore

[limpid summit]

Well he’s stronger than them

Watcher at the edge>>>

[visual glacier]

It’s for his stern stewardship

[stray grove]

Khann held out the longest against GMS AppleEgg

[visual glacier]

His army did

[edgy nebula]

no he died first

[limpid summit]

I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make by saying my whole name repeatedly

[stray grove]

So Karak was the strongest civilization

[sinful nimbus]

Both statements are baseless ultimately

[visual glacier]

How do you know that?

[limpid summit]

But the Skarr held out the longest

Nothing happened to them until the Haunting

[stray grove]

Baseless?

[sinful nimbus]

You provided no basis

[stray grove]

Now none to resist... But us...
Alone... against the pale light...

[dire lynx]

karm fight is set after the citadel was created and nyleth was respected by the citadel

[edgy nebula]

weaver tech above the coral tower where the river would be + him mentioning gms and there being no citadel influence implies weaver influence

it's likely he died before or during the time of the stone citadel

[visual glacier]

Fair enough

[edgy nebula]

prolly ego talking

[sinful nimbus]

Yea the people in karak not everyone in the kingdom (Hello Nyleth!)

[dire lynx]

well, not died, but went into stasis

[stray grove]

No reason to assume this

[edgy nebula]

we know none of the other hearts actually fought against gms

[visual glacier]

Tho imo silkflies in karm is an oversight

[stray grove]

Nyleth didn’t resist

So she’s irrelevant

[sinful nimbus]

I never thought of it like that

[stray grove]

Now none to resist but us means that aside from Karak everyone else fell in line or was forced to fall in line

They were the last civilization that stood to oppose her

Which ultimately led to their destruction

[edgy nebula]

khann was a hardened ruler, alot of his lore points to him dying during the weaver age, i definitely feel like his "None left to resist" line is ego talking and moreso referring to no one actually standing up to her rule, as nyleth, clover dancers, and karmelita never tried to fight her

[keen raven]

damn how big is the citadel
i just noticed there are multiple more layers behind the main structure

[plain gazelle]

or "none left to resist" is referring literally to that room of him and his guards, as the rest of his kingdom had already been conquered

[edgy nebula]

very large

[keen raven]

how the hell did bugs construct this

[stray grove]

If what you’re saying is true then that means everyone else fell in line at the sight of her

Because she was overwhelmingly powerful

[edgy nebula]

labor

[heavy gyro]

Karak fell due to the citadel (what team cherry's interview implies ) so couldn't pale light refer to gms' haunting

[stray grove]

Only the Karaka fought to the bitter end

[edgy nebula]

they never fell in line but never fought against her

[edgy nebula]

good lord what did they say

[dire lynx]

the haunting is recent

[stray grove]

What exactly it refers to isn’t very important

Now none to resist... But us...
This means that regardless of what it’s talking about the Karaka were the last ones doing it

By this point everyone else had been wiped or fell in line that’s the entire point

[heavy gyro]

When talking about why coral gorge was cut, they say it was replaced by blasted steps because of lore reasons about citadel influence

[stray grove]

That sounds like yap

[dire lynx]

devs say something about the lore: "yap"

[stray grove]

Crazy that TC will barf out the horrendous old hearts rewrite and then say it was for lore reasons

I hope they explain what the lore reasons for Seth not making any sense or Hornet killing Karmelita for no reason or Verdania being next to fucking Greymoor despite remnants of it literally still being in its original location are lmao

They can’t just say coral gorge was cut for “lore reasons” and not explain anything

That is meaningless to us

[edgy nebula]

okay i had a read, it seems that way but it could be them saying the weavers/stone citadel did it i hope

i am a gold citadel karak killer denyer

[stray grove]

Karak is very old and died a very long time ago

The haunting is relatively recent and it makes little sense to attribute their fall to it alone

The Khann dialogue would also be incoherent because… there are other bugs who resist the haunting and… aren’t dead

[sinful nimbus]

Who invited this guy

[edgy nebula]

yeah, on the surface it seems like the conductors simply harvested it for water but there's little evidence of the citadel destroying karak, no citadel bodies or nothing

[stray grove]

Address me

[dire lynx]

maybe pale light is just referring to the weavers, after all everyone thought they were truly divine

[edgy nebula]

that or gms

[stray grove]

Pale light is obviously GMS

Please be fr

[edgy nebula]

my theory is gms ordered the weavers to cut off the water supply from mt. fay

[sinful nimbus]

The Return of the King, we're all here to talk about the lore of our favorite game. If you don't like it you'd probably be better off voicing your frustrations elsewhere

[dire lynx]

the devs said it was the citadel, so it cant be

[edgy nebula]

we see weaver influence right above the coral tower, its very likely imo

[stray grove]

They didn’t say that

[edgy nebula]

could simply be stone citadel, or they could be referring to how the citadel has now taken over blasted steps after karak's fall and worsened it even more

[dire lynx]

even if stone citadel, gms is going nap time

[stray grove]

No that’s literally what that means

They said that it would be out of place to have a lush welcoming area in the midst of dead and/or dying lands that had been exploited by the citadel

In no universe is that explicit confirmation that Karak fell to the Citadel

“The beautiful lush world went against the narrative we were trying to tell”

[sinful nimbus]

The point is kinda that the Citadel kept doing what GMS was doing anyway

[stray grove]

The point is it would be out of place

That’s it

Idk how you could take this to mean citadel destroyed Karak

[spark valve]

The insidious memorium karak environs

[edgy nebula]

fucking hate those crustcrags

[stray grove]

Those guys are still alive though

Even in their original habitat

[spark valve]

It means that shit didn’t dry up pre citadel

Since the citadel was able to nab some

[edgy nebula]

i suppose with enough resources the coral could be kept, but the crustcrags being there is a paradox

[stray grove]

But they’re still around even after it dried up

[spark valve]

Yes

[stray grove]

Karak isn’t completely devoid of life

So it could have dried up and they nabbed what was left

[edgy nebula]

we know coral can continue to grow

[lapis creek]

wtf kirb is back

my activism worked in the end

[stray grove]

Coral does continue to grow

[edgy nebula]

it's possible that's why theres a citadel bench in karak, for workers to rest while harvesting coral

[stray grove]

The actual organisms that were around back before Karak dried up aren’t seen in memorium

Only the ones who are still there

So, it could have dried up pre citadel

[edgy nebula]

except for the crustcrags, which are crustcrawlers bred to be larger

crustcrawlers straight up arent in current day karak

[stray grove]

Yes the point is that the Karaka civilization was destroyed pre citadel

Obviously the entire ecosystem didn’t collapse overnight

Karak drying up is implied to be the result of Khann’s death

Not the other way around

[muted lantern]

look at my homie taking a snooze after the gauntlet, he reminds me so much of siegward from dark souls 3

[open quarry]

These very interesting discussions seem to contain quite some disdain and anger behind the words. Makes me sad and hope that's not always the mood of the room

[muted lantern]

what even happened

[hasty nacelle]

Garmond when it comes to saving the day

[muted lantern]

His ass was so useless in the gauntlet but i love him

[hasty nacelle]

https://tenor.com/view/lbj-gif-13596181858079823880

I wish I had him when I did it

[muted lantern]

Garm deserves one good victory before act 3, even if it made my nohit of hhg harder

then again im to lazy to go unlock shakra for it

[silk dirge]

look what arrived

[visual glacier]

Can we get a zoom in on the fleas

[silk dirge]

sure

[edgy nebula]

this is so ass theres no karak…

[visual glacier]

They cute

[silk dirge]

lmao why does the national park poster actually fit in with this

[ionic basalt]

Not the picture of 2 sniping bugs

[silk dirge]

one of the organizations im in on campus had a paint night dinner and i somehow became goated at painting just for that

it came out a lot better than i expected

[hasty nacelle]

Where did you get that from?

[silk dirge]

fangamer

[hasty nacelle]

W

[silk dirge]

https://www.fangamer.com/collections/hollow-knight-silksong/products/silksong-poster

[hasty nacelle]

I kinda want to get those pins cause I have the knight ones

[silent plume]

hornet is half weaver

8/2 = 4

[craggy smelt]

and pale king had no legs, so... math checks out

[silent plume]

no but im talking about limbs in general

[foggy fractal]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1346289074947883031/1430544968304431168/G3UKfRyW8AgaE0p.gif

[frigid belfry]

silksong didnt win best story we must riot

[silent plume]

how do weavers not break their necks on accident like just look at those massive spherical heads?

[foggy fractal]

y'know f1 drivers and how they have to train their necks ?

yeah weavers do that too

[edgy nebula]

their heads are hollow

[craggy smelt]

the sphere's a mask, it's just a big light empty shell
look at widow's comparatively tiny noggin

[craggy smelt]

put the Radiance in there

[edgy nebula]

what is this, some hollow knight?

[foggy fractal]

what are we ? some sort of silk song ??

[craggy smelt]

oh right, the game awards have awards, not just trailers

did e33 win? I need to play that...

[silent plume]

guys

whats the moral

[hasty nacelle]

Me too I could actually beat that game

[silent plume]

of silksong

[hasty nacelle]

We love dominant women

[silent plume]

especially shipping them

[hasty nacelle]

https://tenor.com/view/tiger-tiger-woods-big-dog-salutation-what-up-gif-2478767235926945002

[silent plume]

lowkey

i wonder what happens

if you actually stuff a person

full of silk

[craggy smelt]

they become immortal
but also get possessed by an angry spider goddess

just like in real life

[silent plume]

ok going to eat some silkworms now

[hasty nacelle]

They explode

[silent plume]

wait a second

is silk still silk

[craggy smelt]

that's how you get your rosary beads back

[silent plume]

if its inside of a silkworm

do silkworms have like liquid silk in them?

[craggy smelt]

basically, yeah
all the crap used to actually make silk

proteins and whatever

[silent plume]

is the silk in silk song spider silk?

[craggy smelt]

hah~!

Spider silk is primarily made of large, fibrous proteins called spidroins

'spidroins'

[silent plume]

lace is a spider guys 100% proven

[hasty nacelle]

So she’s perfect for hornet

[silent plume]

lol i got like a 10 silkworms as a pet back in elementary school

but i was kinda a idiot back them

so the survival rate was 7/10

[edgy nebula]

well no cause theyre related and she's a kid

theyd probably be good friends though

[hasty nacelle]

Shit my fault

Unrelated but I’ve always wondered if karmelita’s eyes are permanently closed or she just likes to have them closed

[edgy nebula]

all good

[edgy nebula]

it's probably just a design quirk since im pretty sure she can see

[hasty nacelle]

Well I’m sure hornet cares about her enough to take her with when she left the abyss (unless she needed to or something)

[hasty nacelle]

Still my favorite tho

[edgy nebula]

yeah im sure theyd probably travel together or keep in touch since theyre family and in the events of silksong theyve gone through alot together

[hasty nacelle]

I’m hoping with the dlc we can see what happened since the ending or something like that

[frosty gate]

God I beg for an Epilogue DLC with Hornet and Lace fixing Pharloom

Let Hornet get the crown of fake idgafer

[craggy smelt]

just in time for the Steel Society to swoop in and fuck shit up

again

[hasty nacelle]

What if quirrel pulls up

[bold eagle]

he can’t he’s dead

[hasty nacelle]

He can’t die

[limpid heron]

It's mentioned that a significant amount of time has passed. Bet most of the HK cast is.

[bold eagle]

yes he can

[hasty nacelle]

Yes I know

[bold eagle]

😔 ✌🏽

[dense ridge]

Where is this mentioned? I keep hearing about it

I did also get that impression when I played, but I honestly can't remember why

[edgy nebula]

many characters call hornet old one

i dont think we see hornet called old at all in hk

[dense ridge]

That seems more related to her nature than her age

[dense ridge]

She's older than the guy called "Elderbug"

[limpid heron]

Combination of details that point to that being the case. Can't point to a specific thing.

[dense ridge]

What are a few of them?

If you have time

[frigid belfry]

||hornet calling herself old to shakra, hornet stating she has had multiple mates in her journal which she outlived, hornet saying her youth has passed a while ago to shakra, hornets voice being slightly deeper and a lack of usage of "shaw" etc||

[limpid heron]

Order issued by the Citadel. The once gleaming seal has worn with time.

[dense ridge]

Only the last two of these are really convincing. The others could easily have also been true in HK

[dense ridge]

This one makes sense

[limpid heron]

Here's the one for Hornet's capture

Decree of the Citadel, dirty and worn.

[frigid belfry]

yeah, which is why this theory isnt that substantial

[dense ridge]

Oh so they changed it for that one? Wouldn't that imply that it was a more recent order, then?

[frigid belfry]

theres also the theory that quite a lot of time passed during her captured transportation

like a LOT

it makes sense considering the envoys were at slow walking pace from hallownest to pharloom over the sandsea wastes and other biomes

[limpid heron]

It's worn and dirty. Doesn't scream recent.

[dense ridge]

Yeah but the fact they removed any mention of "worn with time" seems to imply that it is more recent than the other commandments. Besides, they just traveled through the wastes. Of course it's dirty.

[dense ridge]

It can't have been that long considering her captors were mortal bugs

[limpid heron]

Hornet is deconditioned from sitting immoble. Binding skills is a quicker path to get muscle memory back.

[frigid belfry]

possible, but the haunting could have extended their lifespans/workload ability

[dense ridge]

True, but could they have been haunted outside of Pharloom?

[frigid belfry]

she wasnt deconditioned but outright drained of her skills by the rune cage

[limpid heron]

Both lol

Physically and magically

[frigid belfry]

yes, i cannot find the exact text but i am 100% sure her journal says her captors were under a "greater will"

this was discussed around a week ago in this channel

[dense ridge]

I suppose even if not their lives could have been extended through other means like the Whiteward silk surgeries

[limpid heron]

Whiteward's initial experiments were on lifespan extension. There's got to be a sweet spot of not becoming a deformed monstrosity but living longer.

Hence, the Pinstresses are still kicking.

The two surviving ones

[ornate pier]

Journal and dialogue with seamstress

Gms haunting seems to be able to persist far away once it's already happened

[graceful grail]

Same race, but gms is all silk now??

[foggy fractal]

we don't know, I mean there's nothing stopping team cherry from making that canon but for all we know they could just be totally unrelated as well

[graceful grail]

Their face is very similar, and the hair.

[foggy fractal]

yeah yeah we know

[limpid heron]

The only sinilarity is long white hair

[graceful grail]

And the face

[limpid heron]

That's a reach

Silk is more of a spider.

[muted lantern]

um isnt that second image from a mod?

[limpid heron]

It does.

[muted lantern]

bc zemer looks pretty different in canon iirc

[limpid heron]

Her ghost doesn't look that way

[edgy nebula]

she doesnt look like gms much at all

she has long hair(???) and that's kinda it

[foggy fractal]

yeah, given what we do know its a good estimation, though her body could've been more rounded like how we see her in game

[edgy nebula]

also i dont think ze'mer is made of silk

[foggy fractal]

no lmao

[limpid heron]

Her antenae are missing in the image too

[foggy fractal]

I think what 7heman is trying to argue is that gms was once the same species as ze'mer
but then became the silk higher being at a later point

[muted lantern]

the only difference i see in the silhouette is she seems to be standing, where we can see her legs and the ends of her cloak

and less droopy

[foggy fractal]

5 great knights have so much aura

[muted lantern]

both images have her antenna, you just cant see them if you click because the first images ones match the black backdrop

[limpid heron]

Ehhhh, no. Grand Mother Silk is a spider.

[muted lantern]

Not really

[mighty oyster]

Maybe but she doesn’t look like a mantis

[edgy nebula]

oh yeah, i dont think so, their only real similarities are just the long hair and maybe a jawline of sorts

[graceful grail]

Zemer isnt a mantis…

[limpid heron]

She is. Remove the decorative bit, with her arms out, she's a spider.

[muted lantern]

what does this have to do with anything? neither are supposed to be mantises.

[mighty oyster]

I thought they were?

[muted lantern]

her girlfriend is a mantis, she isnt

[edgy nebula]

we have no clue what ze'mer is and thats really funny

[dense ridge]

She's a flower

[limpid heron]

We've got many examples of bugs and plants reproducing with eachother. (sentences that would be batshit out of context)

[dense ridge]

I was joking I don't really think she's a flower

She definitely looks like one though and I bet that was intentional

[edgy nebula]

if i had a nickel for every time a bug and a plant were in a relationship in hk id have a weirdly abundant amount of nickels

[limpid heron]

It's oddly fitting? Given the real world role of insects.

[dense ridge]

PK pollinating the Abyss

[limpid heron]

Might be why the void has the thorny vines now.

Pale King and White Lady left parts of themselves in it.

[dense ridge]

I think it always had those

[graceful grail]

We dont rly know zemers anatomy

[dense ridge]

We can safely say it isn't that

[cunning veldt]

it is that wdym

[mighty oyster]

She could be Zote

[covert night]

😭

[muted lantern]

3 zote in a trench coat

[craggy smelt]

I heard her described as a dish cloth once, that was pretty funny

[muted lantern]

zemer is made of dryer lint

[hidden crater]

What the fuck is this

[muted lantern]

vitruvian ze'mer clearly

[solar tapir]

What if she has eyes under her... Hair? Cloth?

eeh? eeh?

[muted lantern]

what if it's just one big eye

[solar tapir]

no thanks

[stray fog]

I just realized that greyroot and the white lady have similar eyes

<insert white lady greyroot theory>

[solar tapir]

and they are both roots

[stray fog]

And they both breed (kindof)

Greyroot spreads its parasite

White lady spreads her seeds

[midnight zinc]

I mean they’re clearly meant to be reminiscent of each other, the root connection is clear

How one of them is a pale being and the other isn’t if they’re both roots is still not clear

[stray fog]

And we don't know shit about the white lady's origin

That's why I like this theory

[midnight zinc]

I don’t know if it’s much of a theory, more like just an observation about their similarities

[solar tapir]

They can be different species of roots

clearly are

[midnight zinc]

I don’t know if “species” is the right word here, specifically because the white lady’s uniqueness is her pale nature, we’d have to assume there’s a whole species of roots that are all pale beings

I think she’s just particularly unique

For whatever reason

[solar tapir]

I mean not all roots in universe is parasites

[midnight zinc]

Why some gods are pale and others aren’t was already unclear, but now that we know some members of a species can be “normal” bugs that aren’t divine and some of them can be pale beings, that just creates more questions

[solar tapir]

even if its not pale

[midnight zinc]

We only see two roots though, Greyroot and WL

Again, her non parasitic nature might be because of her pale nature

[craggy smelt]

Blackroot when

[midnight zinc]

Whenever we see the Blackwyrm probably

[solar tapir]

still does not deny the fact that not all roots needed to be parasites

[stray fog]

Pale king is the only pale wyrm, but I'd consider all wyrms to be of the same species

On an unrelated note, I want to point out that most higher beings don't have names

Except unn

Names like "the radiance" are only used in boss fights, but no character ever calls her the radiance iirc

[heavy gyro]

The seer calls her the radiance

[stray fog]

Oh

[random harbor]

Seer - Bringing Essence - Returning with 2400 Essence

So much Essence... So bright.... You truly are the Wielder my tribe so long has dreamed of.
The folk of my tribe were born from a light. Light similar to Essence, similar to that powerful blade, though much brighter still.
They were content to bask in that light and honoured it... for a time.
But another light appeared in our world... A wyrm that took the form of a king.
How fickle my ancestors must have been. They forsook the light that spawned them. Turned their backs to it... Forgot it even.
And so this kingdom was born from that betrayal. But the memories of that ancient light still lingered, hush whispers of faith... Until all of Hallownest began to dream of that forgotten light.
Ah, but what's done is done. And so am I. The Wielder has at last appeared and I've held the memories of my tribe for long enough. It is time for us to be forgotten too.
Don't remember us, Wielder. Don't honour us. We do not deserve it...
Aahh... I'm sorry...
Light... Radiance...
I... remember you.

@theplasma used /npcs quest name: Seer category: Bringing Essence dialogue: Returning with 2400 Essence

[dense willow]

What do people think of the idea that the first sinner led the rebellion against gms but was taken prisoner by the conductors shortly after handing control of the citadel over to them and choosing to stay behind, possibly so that they could harvest her silk, I'm basing this of the fact that the entire slab seems more rooted in the way the conductors ran the citadel, as a way to control bugs and keep them obedient through religion, and both her cell and the rest of the slab is gilded which based on pious isamor's dialogue, likely only happened after the conductors took control

[wispy drum]

Alright this gonna probably sound like shit but hear me out

Hornet did not defeat the hollow knight in the godhome delicate flower ending there's no way the hollow knight even survived for more than a minute

As you can see the infection works like pus it infects parts of your body and doesn't leave without a fight causing damage

So because of this after the infection died so had he as well

And the delicate flower ending for godhome still makes sense because the shade lord could have been transported to Pharlooms void

Feel free to point out any holes in this I always appreciate feedback

I also know the image I used isn't canon but the infection still works relatively the same

[dense willow]

I think if it was able to survive making it to the edge of the black egg temple, it could probably survive for longer, I also doubt they would actually end up fighting now that thk is uninfected

Neither would have a reason to attack the other

[dire lynx]

the hollow knight is made of void and so has no organs or real shell/skin to be disrupted. I agree regular bugs at his stage would die, but due to his unique biology it isnt as much of an issue.

[dense willow]

Yes

[wispy drum]

It's a bit foggy around that if vessels are bugs or not

[ionic basalt]

Constructs of void made to look like bugs ig

[wispy drum]

Here's a more accurate image to show the differences

[dense willow]

Thk was created to withstand and contain the infection, even if it didn't achieve this as perfectly as pk would have hoped, it can still do so to an extent, which I think would be enough to allow it to survive after the infection withers away

[dense willow]

It only starts doing the infection attacks after taking a good amount of damage from the knight though

[wispy drum]

But still even if you take that all into the argument I don't think the hollow knight's physical form survived, I do think his void form did though

[dense willow]

In this ending,, it would have been dormant and bound up until the infection was destroyed

[twilit pecan]

But they aren’t normal bugs, they are void constructs, as been said earlier, they are also pare pale being which could increase their durability(? I’m not sure if it’s the right word)

[craggy smelt]

the vessels are basically undead, if they aren't killed outright by damage I don't think they'll suffer and bleed out like normal living things
if THK hasn't already died from the damage done by the infection, I don't think they're going to
(they just need a little Soul to focus...)

[wispy drum]

The idea of them being semi higher beings is a good point but I think the void makes that well, void the vessels are basically just empty shells of children corrupted with void

[craggy smelt]

god babies, hollowed out and turned into suits for the Void
Soul of Wyrm, Soul of Root, Heart of Void

[wispy drum]

Yeah that's what I was trying to say thank you @craggy smelt

[dire lynx]

wait gorb, can you say the iconic voice line pls

🙏

[craggy smelt]

also given how crazy TC got with Silksong, we have to consider the craziest possible ending - THK lives, and is back in Hallownest wondering what the hell happened to Hornet

[dense willow]

_______ with gorb

[craggy smelt]

"Say the line, Gorb!"

[dense willow]

This is what I like to believe is canon

Here me out, third game we finally play as the hollow knight

[craggy smelt]

Hollow Knight 3: Hollow Knight

[twilit pecan]

I would love this

[dense willow]

Precisely

[craggy smelt]

the world has to get bigger still to accomodate them

[dense willow]

Or they just call it "the knight"

[dire lynx]

and we have it set in city of steel, seeing how big jinn and zi are it could work

[ionic basalt]

Imo vessels are just void given form, they at most lose their physical shell and become useless, but the void itself prob just returns

Ok atp idk what im saying anymore

[dense willow]

Yeah, their size would be ridiculous if you played on the same scale as hallownest

[craggy smelt]

no, sorry, but my theory is going to happen - the Steel Society kidnaps Hollow Knight and brings them to the City of Steel, then gives them a new steel arm and turns them into a Steel Knight
Hornet fights them in the City of Steel DLC as the true final boss

[dense willow]

The winter knight

[craggy smelt]

no, that's pretty much correct - when 'killed', the Void within the vessel is released as a Shade, and they seem to gather down in the Abyss with the rest of the Void

[ionic basalt]

He might be gorb

[dire lynx]

thank you king

[craggy smelt]

getting back to this before I forget, I think this is correct - First Sinner seems like she discovered the nature of the Weavers (given her having memory of one being created) and this eventually led them to rebel against her
it makes sense that she would be targeted as a priority prisoner by the Citadel once Silk started up the Haunting and took over

[dense willow]

Cool, the other theory I've seen a lot of people go for is the one mossbag said where the weavers imprisoned her for spreading the information that they weren't divibe which could cause the citadel to collapse, but I like the first one a lot more

[dire lynx]

the citadel was using grand mother silk as a silk source, so i dont see why they would want first sinner

[craggy smelt]

yeah, I really buy that myself
I don't think the Weavers origins would have been in danger from being revealed if they were the only ones who knew about it
and I'm not sure it really would have made much difference to the bugs who worshipped them anyway

they might not have targeted the weavers until Silk started to influence them
(though who knows, they wanted silk for their life-extending procedures in Whiteward)

[dire lynx]

the pilgrims worshipped the weavers like they were gods, i dont think that they would appreciate the information that they are not getting out

also, with the way the story of the slab flies is painted it seems like a much more ancient service than the conductors

also the old penitent who came from the surface

[craggy smelt]

the pilgrims honored the weavers for what they did - I don't know that the details of their origins would really have made a difference
and even if they did, I don't see why First Sinner would have cared about informing them - there isn't any sign that she was out preaching the truth to the pilgrims to try and make them turn away from Weaver worship
if anything, the Weavers wanted the pilgrims for the Citadel precisely to keep GMS bound, which FS would have been the mastermind of

there's a partially built bellshrine in Weavenest Atla, iirc

[dire lynx]

Old penitent:
Drawn down... blessed call...

Surface needolin:
The weaving ones beckon...
Sweet promises whispered...
From depths below...
Friends seduced...
Now only the wind...

[dense willow]

Yes, the weavers drew in the pilgrims

Most likely with song

But like yak said, there is a partially built bell shrine in weavenest atla, suggesting atla (first sinner) was a part of this

[dire lynx]

the old penitent who is in the slab is from the nameless town and the flies debt is old even to him

[dense willow]

Ah, I see your point

[dire lynx]

and bell shrines were created to weaken GMS

[dense willow]

This is based entirely of cut content

[dire lynx]

it is still something that team cherry had in mind while making the game and writing lore

[dense willow]

It could be that the old penitent was drawn into the citadel by the weavers but wasn't imprisoned until they left

And the flies didn't necessarily work as wardens for all of their debt

[dire lynx]

the flies had still been in servitude for so long that their sin had already been forgotten by the time he was locked away

"A sin long forgotten, but so grave that their offspring and the offspring of their offspring carry the guilt with them still. To serve here is their only hope of absolution."

[dense willow]

Hmm

[craggy smelt]

the Weavers handed off the Citadel to the Conductors eventually, but we don't know the timeline - plenty of stuff could have happened between the Citadel's initial creation and the Conductors taking over, like the slabflies stuff

[dense willow]

Alternatively, the slab could still have been in use by the weavers, most of it is relatively unguilded, but the cell for first sinner looks much more conductor-citadely

[dire lynx]

ive just had another look at the room, are those her needles sticking about?

[craggy smelt]

looks like them

[dire lynx]

perhaps at some point she escaped and was locked up again, during the conductors reign?

[craggy smelt]

could be she put up a fight

[dire lynx]

i still think the weavers did the initial locking up, though this detail is quite interesting

[ionic basalt]

Prob they didnt seal her with the runes before?

[craggy smelt]

maybe weavers like Widow, in service to GMS, played a part in it
I still don't find it plausible that First Sinner would make any efforts to endanger pilgrim worship of the Weavers, when her ultimate effort to cage GMS relied on pilgrim power

[dire lynx]

widow appears to have been the only weaver in support of gms

Eternity... Alone...

[craggy smelt]

then maybe it was her backed up by one hell of a Citadel Chamber team

[keen pollen]

Hot Take: Lugoli´s butt can one-shot absolute radiance. 😉

[ionic basalt]

Powerscalers work 🗣️

[dire lynx]

lugoli butt does 2 contact damage, how much does radiance

[keen pollen]

I mean, Lugoli’s butt might as well be the birth place of the void. I don’t think the radiance got much of a chance…

[ionic basalt]

Might be onto something here

[hushed viper]

Just watched a vid ab how the godseelers might've passed the surface over pharloom but this made me realize something

Was Dirtmouth in the surface or was it in a bigger undergroumd cave i dont remember

[halcyon merlin]

hornet would take 4 damage to any 2 damage source in hk

🔥

[hushed viper]

Does that meam Pharloom is weaker cuz they'd deal 1 dmg to the knight max or does that mean Hallownest is far stronger

[halcyon merlin]

that means hornet durability sucks

no wonder she almost died from that little fall in the start of the game

[stray fog]

It looks like its on the surface

In hk's opening cutscene

When the knight arrives in hallownest

[halcyon merlin]

he should be technically in howling cliffs during that cutscene

[stray fog]

We see a shot of dirtmouth in that cutscene

[halcyon merlin]

at the end of the cutscene doesn't he juml

jump

then the game starts with him falling in king pass

im just saying this

!!

[stray fog]

https://youtu.be/5rgw9mL2OOw

[halcyon merlin]

yeah

but true it should be on the surface

[olive glen]

I loved the part in the lore when GMS said: "Ough I'm silking it!" And silked all over the place

[stray fog]

It looks like they can see dirtmouth from that point, but to get there, they have to jump into king's pass first

[halcyon merlin]

well she is truly silking all over pharloom

[stray fog]

I think I figured out why there are no geo deposits in pharloom

Hallownest had geo because it was barren long enough for bugs to fossilize there

Pharloom doesn't have that because people still live there, and if they see a dead body, they'll clean it up. So no fossilization

[lean temple]

Shell shards are similar to geo. Pharloom doesn't have "geo" because they don't value fossils as currency. Fossils still exist.
"Geo: The currency of Hallownest, made from fossilised shells of various forms."
"Shell Shards: Hardened fragments of shell and bone, used in the crafting of tools and traps."

[real plank]

gurr

[lean temple]

Shardillard: Devious ambusher that poses as a fossil.

[olive glen]

Yup

[hushed viper]

the fact that this is actually what happened

[frigid belfry]

Means hornet is weaker, after all she is only half hb, while the knight is a hollowed out full hb. Yet the main reason double damage in ss exists is because of balancing so the game isnt too easy. Hornets healing system is far better and more versatile than hk’s. Mathematically if most bosses/enemies did one, you could face tank their attacks and just spam hit, and you wouldnt lose health assuming you get 3 hits for every 1 damage you take.

Shortened its both game design and lore wise hornet is weaker than tk

[hushed viper]

tbf true but i feel like the better healing is FOR the more double damage instead of the other way around

[frigid belfry]

Personally because of how we see ss’s elevation, I think dirtmouth is inside one huge underground cave. My evidence for this would be numerous statements in pharloom of an actual surface that we literally see (it’s also brighter that dirtmouth), and the abyss depth. Hornets statement that the abyss/void is below all things implies its elevation would be somewhat constant. I just think pharloom is one giant underground mountainous structure based on its lava at the bottom and numerous cliff/peak like structures at the top. Unless the abyss in hallownest was miles above pharlooms dirtmouth wouldnt be the same elevation as the surface.

[bleak ridge]

Mechanically aside we have to consider the fact that hornet was HEAVILY weakened by the time she entered pharloom because of the rune cage, and also the fact that unlike the knight who's related to possibly 3 higher beings, hornet is only half higher being and seems to be more weaver then wyrm aswell

[bleak ridge]

And by the time she reached areas like the citadel, the enemies were already pretty strong

The other thing is that unlike hallownests mindless enemies, the enemies in silksong were trained and actually sophisticated plus maybe buffed by GMS' silk

[bleak ridge]

The abyss we saw in HK wasn't really "The Abyss", most of it was blocked off by the millions of empty vessel shells

[frigid belfry]

Void sea

[paper willow]

what was the meaning of the sister of the void ending?

[bleak ridge]

That's still probably just void creeping out as we see it do multiple times

[bleak ridge]

Wdym necessarily by meaning?

[frigid belfry]

Tk isnt hollow, the vessels in the abyss likely aren’t aswell, hornet narratively ties up her story saving pharloom and lace, rejecting her pale being nature. Hornet learns to stand for a kingdom and it’s people, and goes back on her previous “sentinel” behaviour

There are better analysis’s above this is kind of a throw away one

[paper willow]

okay, so why does hornet look like she's in for another hell lot of trauma when lace laughs?

[bleak ridge]

Shock I presume

[frigid belfry]

Unlikely, it’s the exact same void sea we see in pharloom, no mentions in text even imply the hk abyss was higher than normal

[frigid belfry]

I would describe her look as contemplation

More of surprised this all worked out, satisfied it did

Lace of course is her lax/indifferent and jolly nature

[bleak ridge]

I don't think so, her laugh seemed more like a coping method for what had just happened

The mother she resented so much sacrificing herself and hornet who she was insanely jealous of saving her from the doom she brought upon herself seemed ironic

[frosty gate]

What's the topic?

[frigid belfry]

little discussion on hornet's durability, difference between geo and shell shards, hollow knight universe geography, abyss height across hn and pharloom, and the narrative meaning of sotv

[frosty gate]

So the usual

Except of the SotV discussion what's that about?

[frigid belfry]

the meaning of hornets stare as above

i interpreted it as contemplation and relief

[frosty gate]

I think she's just overwhelmed

Like, she's just staring at nothingness like "Holy shit so that's what happened back in Hallownest"

[heavy gyro]

Why does the architect statue sing the conductors melody

[ionic basalt]

Bellador sings it badly 😭

[halcyon merlin]

its all nosk situation

[midnight zinc]

She just looks overwhelmed. She has the adrenaline from an insane fight to save the kingdom, almost died in the void, then was saved when the knight came out of no where. It’s a lot to take in that she’s fine and succeeded I bet

[frosty gate]

Does it?

[heavy gyro]

Yeah

And the conductor statue sings something completely new

Not even the architects melody

[bleak ridge]

I guess an oversight by TC? I can't really think of any lore related reason as to why it would be like that

[frosty gate]

I gotta check now, wait

[analog sandal]

which is the best video for lore?

mossbag, gingy, lorebrarians, etc

[craggy smelt]

haven't seen gingy

the others are fine, lorebarians strikes more of a serious tone than mossbag, if that's what you're into

[analog sandal]

i see

[craggy smelt]

they all have their speculative bits, but you'll get the whole general story

[remote flax]

?

?

[sinful nimbus]

No lore video is going to be 100% accurate I'd recommend just jumping into any to get the broad picture

[frosty gate]

It's all guides of the lore with a bunch of speculation, so check someone of a youtuber whose voice you like and after, check what he said there to what's true here. We speculate a lot too, but at the very least we call out each other on bullshit

On real time too

If you want lore unfiltered, you can always check the wiki and make your own interpretation

The general story is hard to miss, it's the little tidbits that are hard to pinpoint

[hushed viper]

Quee Vespa warned ab her pursuers

"People who are after her nature"

Which nature were she referring to tho?

Her nature of being a demigod in general

Or her nature of being a weaver

[craggy smelt]

probably the Weaver side of things, the Weavers were definitely being pursued

wouldn't surprise me if Herrah told her

maybe they had some agreement where she would look after Hornet

"Raise my kid after I'm gone."

[hushed viper]

I thought that too but how would she know?

[hushed viper]

Maybe

But that would mean she knew GMS would send people to get her

[frosty gate]

I don't think that's what it would mean

It just means that she is going to be pursued for her Weaver Nature, but not just by GMS

[hushed viper]

Makes sense

[frosty gate]

Weavers are proficient at rune making, or so it seems

And they are really good at seals

PK worked with them

[hushed viper]

But who would not only know ab the prominance of the Weavers but also bold enougj to get them

[frosty gate]

Whoever has a fucking Weaver "Staked to service"

Which was the City of Steel iirc

[hushed viper]

GMS is the only one that does that

Right

[hushed viper]

O

Also

[craggy smelt]

the weaver 'staked to service' was found beneath the City of Steel, but we don't know exactly what it means

[frosty gate]

I mean, it's very clear she was being used or that she was working under some sort of regime

[hushed viper]

It prob mean they had to work for something/someone and is secluded

[frosty gate]

What we know about Steel masters and the City is that

You either work or you die

You obey or you die

You respect or you die

[hushed viper]

1984

[frosty gate]

So Staked to Service pretty much means she was being worked to death

Ah yes

Compression

I read that dialogue and all I can picture is that Anime death machine thingy

[edgy nebula]

i just picture a trash compactor

evil wall-e crushes his cockroach friend and he turns into a steelheart

[unique canopy]

There was an old Power Rangers show where the gimmick for beating the bad guys was flash freezing them so they could be shrunk down into a miniature cryo storage device.

[craggy smelt]

steel hearts are mechs for tiny pale beings

[quick geyser]

One thing I’m curious about Shakra is her relationship with her actual biological mother

Shakra and her mentor was obviously so close with each others that Shakra considers her master to be a mother as well

But the thing is, she said “more by far than the bug who bore me”

This implies that Shakra and her biological mother has a not-very-beautiful relationship
Shakra mommy issue

Will we ever have any new information on this? I doubt but it fun to talk about

[stray grove]

You should ask Team Cherry that

[craggy smelt]

maybe she and lace can have some interactions if there's ever an Act 4

[frosty gate]

ACT 4

THERAPY

[silk dirge]

i wonder if shakra had a similar relationship to her mother as hornet had with pk

aka nonexistent

[frosty gate]

I lied Lace, we're not fixing Pharloom, we're taking care of those mommy issues

[frosty gate]

Probably

[quick geyser]

Does he know?

Some people have pointed out that despite PK and Hornet having literally zero screen time or any lines mentioning them together, they actually have a lot of parallels

[frosty gate]

What?

I mean, that doesn't mean they spent time together, Hornet probably loathes those parallels

[frigid belfry]

Shakras tribe was stated to value battle honour and strength over emotion and bonds

Her relationship with her mother was probably similar

[quick geyser]

That is true, it doesn’t necessarily imply that they spent time together. But think about this, Hornet was raised in the white palace, and the PK, despite seemingly cold, couldn’t even success in raising THK to be hollow. So I think they did have some kind of relationship

[gentle aspen]

Add another to the pile

[stray grove]

The regrets just keep piling up

[gentle aspen]

If they had a relationship it was either so thin it was basically non existent or Hornet didn’t like it

either wag

[silk dirge]

anyways someone pointed out once that the reason shakra thinks hornet is a child is probably bc hornet doesnt have any injuries or marks on her

[gentle aspen]

sh

[silk dirge]

since she can basically just heal them off

this is the dialog you get after shakra knocks you out in the fight

[frosty gate]

She was raised in the Palace, yes, but it's unclear if she did spend time with PK or not. She does spend time with White Lady and that's something we know, they probably just had a relationship of "seeing you around" rather than "Let me try to be you father"

PK was in the middle of trying to save an entire kingdom while going crazy because of the things he had done. He spent time with PV, yes, but because it was his duty

[stray grove]

She thinks she’s a child because of her small stature

That seems fairly obvious no

[silk dirge]

i mean i think hornet not having lots of marks from enemies could also be a reason

[stray grove]

I’m not sure why you would assume someone was a child simply due to them not having any obvious injury

[frosty gate]

I'm not a personal passenger of the "Hornet hates the King" train, but I find the thought funny, even if not Canon

[gentle aspen]

well she clearly doesn’t like the guy based on the comments with the wingmoulds

and his total absence from red memory

[silk dirge]

i mean i would assume for shakra marks from enemies are treated as a sort of like marker of age

it makes sense for her

like a marker of experience

[quick geyser]

The reason why PK relationship with Hornet is so unclear is likely because it fitted with how PK character was written

[stray grove]

This is an unnecessary assumption

There exists a far simpler explanation

[frosty gate]

She only calls him a fool, which to be fair, he is, anyone logical enough would say the same if they didn't want to ride that Wyrm d

[silk dirge]

i mean it can be both lol

[frosty gate]

You can call someone a moron while also thinking he's an alright moron

[gentle aspen]

he wasn’t foolish though, he just didn’t have relevant information

and what she calls him a fool for doesn’t even make sense when its tied to a wingmould of all things, a nigh perfect example of controlling the void

[frosty gate]

Pretty much yeah, but I think it's okay that it's unclear and I personally think they just didn't have time to either get along or dislike each other. Hornet repeating her dad's issues is pretty much a take on Generational issues

[quick geyser]

At the very least, I do think they have interacted multiple times, and it likely that Hornet picked up a few traits from him (Whether it is because of genetics or because she learned from him)

[stray grove]

No reason to think so
You are asserting that Shakra’s culture use visible injury as a marker of age, which is frankly a pretty stupid metric and also baseless, and that she applies this metric to everyone she meets, and therefore assumes Hornet is a child
This is unnecessarily contrived

[frosty gate]

I'd say it's both, the little interactions are stuck to her even if she doesn't care much of him

[silk dirge]

i mean i just think its an interesting observation that makes sense

[stray grove]

I don’t think it makes a lot of sense though

[silk dirge]

i mean would you expect a child to be marked by combat

[stray grove]

She could also just be a competent fighter

She could also be a non combatant who only recently took up a weapon

What’s your point

[silk dirge]

hornet healing shit is cool

idk

let me have my theory

[quick geyser]

I think the comment is also Hornet projecting herself. Because she also meddled with the void to an extend

[frosty gate]

I mean, I think it's just a remark on how she doesn't believe the void can be used and controlled fully. Since you know, she's going through all the shit she's going right not

[quick geyser]

It complicated

[stray grove]

Hornet doesn’t seem to have a favorable opinion of her father but this doesn’t necessarily mean they interacted a great deal

We don’t know the extent of the interaction

[frosty gate]

And honestly, I would like to see more development on that note. I want to see why she thinks him a fool

[stray grove]

It’s just aura farming

[silk dirge]

i feel like hornet feels forgotten by pk

[gentle aspen]

probably but it really should be more clear

[gentle aspen]

why would she care

[frosty gate]

Well, to be fair, it was the snails who were foolish

[stray grove]

They weren’t

[silk dirge]

i mean pk's favorite child was probably pv

[frosty gate]

A lot of things In the Journal should be more clear honestly

[stray grove]

I don’t think Hornet would envy PV of all people bruh

[gentle aspen]

Again, why would she care and why would that matter

[stray grove]

She pities the Vessels

[gentle aspen]

PV was born and raised to be a thing not a person

Why would she be jealous of them

[frosty gate]

I doubt she cares

[silk dirge]

thats not what i was trying to say

[gentle aspen]

hell half of Silksong’s themes are not going the path you were born to be or whatever

[stray grove]

Why would Hornet feel “forgotten”

[gentle aspen]

if she cares about PK’s affections she sure doesn’t show it