sk-lore

[crystal vapor]

I mean the mask makers don’t seem to have customers and they are on the outskirts of their civilizations

Why wouldn’t a maskmaker be in city of tears or the citadel

[plain gazelle]

they do, dialogue with tipp when you accept mask maker delivery: "A delivery deadly, dangerous, fiercably cold, for old bug up there that does need it much-much! Serves us all he does, so we serve back"

[crystal vapor]

If they are highly praised

[crystal vapor]

Why there then? Why mount Fay?

He could make masks anywhere no?

[plain gazelle]

to be left undisturbed mostly, i would imagine

[crystal vapor]

Why so remote?

It’s like a grocery store in the middle of a forest

Instead of the middle of the city

If it’s so important

Why have one dude do it as well?

Are they hard to make?

[whole holly]

it's not like she is trying to be new heart, but rather create one for Mosslands, she only expresses curiosity

[plain gazelle]

well again, we don't know exactly what the nature of his work is. both mask makers claim to provide masks for the faceless, but we don't know if that's literally everyone at birth, or only some small amount of the population

[crystal vapor]

Hmmm

[honest sun]

i think we have never seen a drunk bug before

[whole holly]

The Moss Druid was originally named the Druid of the Moss Temple, while their quest, Berry Picking, was originally named Mossberry Brew.

[crystal vapor]

Are the fleas drunk

Or is that speed something else

[stray fog]

Hes a workaholic and doesn't like being disturbed

[whole holly]

religious symbolism much:

[stray fog]

Although a lot of characters tell you to go away, as if they're doing some important work

[whole holly]

Mask Maker, Moss Druid both seem uniquelly insane, why does Team Cherry like insane characters

cryptic

[plain gazelle]

moss druid is a bit easier to decipher

[whole holly]

agree, we know what they mean, mask maker is bit harder, mr mushroom is lot harder

[stray fog]

Well have mr mushroom figured out by 2080

[whole holly]

in my opinion, somewhat obvious route is Moss Druid to concoct new heart to resist plasmium infection of mosslands, somewhat similar to how nyleth maintained shellwood and karmelita resisted haunting

[stray fog]

https://tenor.com/view/marmota-cooking-hold-up-gif-5382607284931131048

[whole holly]

i guess it is speculation, kind of , but it will be interesting

[stray fog]

I like the way you combined it with lifeblood

[whole holly]

thanks but i think theory will get popularized, because Plasmified Wormways is literally right there

[plain gazelle]

as far as I read it, the hearts are just manifestations of the "strength" of a kingdom/people. moss druid sensing a new heart forming is evidence that pharloom has a future after GMS

[whole holly]

that is most likely case, hearts are source of strength, that is somewhat obvious conclusion, but i wonder how will literal plant concoction serve moss druid, will she consumei it herself and gain moss heart? or will she give it to someone else

[plain gazelle]

i kind of doubt she specifically has any great part to play, she can just sense the change coming

[whole holly]

after all Mosslands will need strength post act 3 with plasmium and void haunting right next door

[plain gazelle]

she doesn't give off ruler energy

[whole holly]

i mean Nyleth wasn't ruler in traditional sense, since Shellwood is just a forest

she was heart of shellwood, last successors are all figures of strength, Moss Druid being religious figure has potential, i trust her process more that Greyroots

i love healthy lore discussions like these

[inner torrent]

Just me or this looks like that spot in songclave?

Like, the one you go after going down from the room with the steam elevator

[whole holly]

yes, it does

Caretakers Temple

Church or whatever

[stray fog]

It most probably is that spot

[inner torrent]

I always felt that spot was kinda unnecessary and weird spotted, but if it was supposed to be where they placed wishes that would make sense

[stray fog]

It looks like quest boards used to include quests from every town, not just the one it was placed in

[whole holly]

shrine actually

[dull birch]

chat minor question: did silkflies all originate from Whiteward, or is that just the form souls take? Wanted to ask cause I had a theory but this would dispute it.

mainly asking cause Karmelita has silkflies in her arena so it's possible that silkflies are older than whiteward

[crystal vapor]

So does he have regular delivery people? And my point about there being a single mask maker still stands, tho maybe there are more we don’t see, it’s just notable to me

[half zenith]

Fucked up lifeblood lore thoughts: Hornet was around to see the reason why lifeblood was banned from Hallownest, right? Since she has strong opinions about how hazardous the substance is and says she’s seen this before in her home caves.
So- If this was entirely separate from the Infection- I wonder if Hornet’s seen what it does to bugs that consume too much of it

[crystal vapor]

Are there any indications of mask distribution shops or stalls so that bugs don’t need to venture out into mount fay to meet the guy?

It just seems odd this would be so primitive in Pharloom of all places known for automation and whatnot

There should be evidence of logistics for this

[half zenith]

If the wildlife was affected that badly and the substance is clearly some level of addictive at higher levels of consumption…what happened to any unfortunate people that may have gotten caught up in it? Does lifeblood need to be consumed/injected to have harmful effect or is simply being near it enough to be hazardous?

[crystal vapor]

That’s the problem with the silk fly whiteward theory yeah and why it’s presumed they were around for very long time

[dull birch]

ok just asking

I have a theory that Fayforn is connected to the silkflies in some way

[half zenith]

I wonder what offscreen horrors Hornet has seen occur when lifeblood afflicted Hallownest for a time before Pale King presumably stepped in

[crystal vapor]

Why? Just the resemblance or what’s your theory

[dull birch]

mainly due to anatomical similarities, both being called by music, and both being interested in by the weavers

we know that fayforn is rlly important but we don't know why

[crystal vapor]

Hmmm

Intriguing

[dull birch]

the weavers, mister mushroom and mask maker all take interest in it

and the weavenest in mount fay has a ton of big technological advancements (and they built the whole thing because of the fayforn)

[crystal vapor]

Does anyone know if whiteness and paleness have at least a correlation or is there a lot of white stuff that is definitely not pale

[dull birch]

so I personally think it's a higher being but I wasn't sure what it represented

[crystal vapor]

That’s my train of thought as well

I’m trying to think if whiteness is a good indicator of paleness

Or if paleness has no correlation other than everything that is pale is white

[dull birch]

my personal theory is it's connected to soul and thats why it resembles the silkflies and why there's a bunch of soul based weaponry in mount fay

[crystal vapor]

Just that there is tons of other non pale stuff that is white

[dull birch]

i think everything related to paleness is mentioned as "pale" in some form

off the top of my head

[crystal vapor]

Yeah I’m just thinking objects and creatures in game

[dull birch]

pale king, white lady, gms, pale oil, palestag

[crystal vapor]

Like could we assume this creature is pale

Because it’s white

Is soul pale?

[dull birch]

also maybe eva because it mentions sylphs in her power like the pale oil is from sylphean slugs

[crystal vapor]

Like in origin or either what makes a pale being pale is having a ton of concentrated soul?

[dull birch]

most likely

[edgy nebula]

yes

[crystal vapor]

Is there any speculation as to fayforn being any specific kind of bug?

[edgy nebula]

groal describes soul as a swirling pale flame

[dull birch]

most likely a moth

4 wings, fluffy, etc.

[edgy nebula]

we dont know, my bet is a wooly aphid tho

[crystal vapor]

Mm

[crystal vapor]

Hmmm

[crystal vapor]

That’s a good source

[dull birch]

the one thing that goes against my theory is that the driftlin call it mother and they aren't rlly connected to soul or anything

but that could just be because they live on mount fay

[crystal vapor]

Mmm they do look very similar

The horns

The abdomen

[edgy nebula]

we arent really sure if fayforn is a pale or hb

[dull birch]

i think it's at least a higher being for sure

[crystal vapor]

If it’s a pale being maybe these creatures are the sort of Pharlids for it. Are they sentient in any way?

[dull birch]

i can't think of another reason why the weavers would build an entire weavenest to commune with it

also it's killed weavers before so it's very strong

[edgy nebula]

it's possible it's just a very strong large creature

we know normal bugs can be quite strong, as seen with the last successors

[crystal vapor]

Maybe the idea was to potentially have it combat GMS since they all of their goals seem related to that

[dull birch]

mask maker also states that it's aware of GMS

in some capacity

[crystal vapor]

Hmm

[edgy nebula]

well that just means it's sentient, since khann was also aware of gms

[crystal vapor]

It seems so wild

[dull birch]

wait where was that

[edgy nebula]

wdym

[dull birch]

the khann thing

[edgy nebula]

his needolin dialogue

[crystal vapor]

It’s hard to see this thing as typical for pale beings

Fayforn doesn’t seem the type to ruthlessly dominate

It’s a bit unique if it’s a pale being

Tho maybe underneath that cuteness is a ruthless tyrant

Or hivemind

Or something

Why does it even give Hornet the double jump?

What makes her special?

[edgy nebula]

trusts her and wants gms dead

[crystal vapor]

Mmm

[edgy nebula]

it probably senses her weaver lineage, since we know hornet was kinda prophesied among the last weavers

[unique tangle]

I mean it’s been killing weavers before in the past

So it’s not all that peaceful of a creature

[dull birch]

well i mean

it's probably providing judgement to whoever it meets with

and the weavers weren't all exactly saints

[unique tangle]

Killing them is still a pretty harsh form of judgement

[dull birch]

true

[unique canopy]

Killing pilgrims for food is also what some Weavers did

[whole holly]

she does seem to glow more when she wants to, wiki doesn't document it but yeah

[whole holly]

oh, that's terrible

[plain gazelle]

this could be reading too much into gameplay but I think it's interesting that the ability fayforn gives hornet is the key ability for true ending, and doesn't directly help with actually beating GMS. maybe she sensed in hornet a willingness to remove GMS instead of just replacing her, like the other weavers wanted

[opal magnet]

Hornet is cold blooded

[edgy nebula]

ok

hop on the fayforn wooly aphid theory

[dull birch]

it's also the only traversal ability not gifted by the weavers

not counting drift cloak cause that's just physics

faydown double jump is just straight up magic

@plain gazelle forgot to reply but yeah

[whole holly]

Weavers were desperate to end GMS's Tyranny, they created Eva to replace her, it is not stretch to say Weavers looked to Fayforn because they though she would be powerful enough to best GMS or find solution, only Hornet turned out to be solution after all

[edgy nebula]

im pretty sure the weavers worshipped fayforn pre-revolution

[whole holly]

really? how do we know of that? it seems like Weavenest and Weaver structures were hideouts from GMS

[edgy nebula]

not all of them i dont think, pretty sure they just served that purpose after the weavers found out

plus mask maker implies fayforn wasnt against gms originally so it doesnt make sense the weavers would look to her for help

[whole holly]

plus it is likely they always wanted another power source and to rebel since First Sinner is ancient

[whole holly]

what do you mean implies, is it up to interpretation or?

[edgy nebula]

first sinner is just the first weaver to find out about gms lying

[edgy nebula]

he implies it by telling us he didnt think fayforn to be against her

[plain gazelle]

i think it makes sense that the weavers were trying to get an alliance against GMS with fayforn but failed to convince her

[whole holly]

yeah, i know, Post -FS weaver plans could be building Weaver structures to commune

[whole holly]

me too

[plain gazelle]

half related but i like how every other weavenest except Karn has some kind of plan to deal with GMS, which implies Karn really thought she was cooking with sharpdart

[whole holly]

that is not strict be it is possible, but mask maker doesn't say anything about Fayforn not being against her in past, just that he didn't think Fayforn to be against GMS

[whole holly]

karn is also only one that's burial spire right?

[plain gazelle]

yeah

[whole holly]

maybe Mount Fay was supposed to have Weavenest because Silk Shot and Weaver Servitor Igrim i think

[unique tangle]

Absolom

[plain gazelle]

oh yea

[plain gazelle]

all of mount fay is basically one big weavenest

[whole holly]

oh yeah, i forgot, sad she never was able to make anything out of void, at least laid her eggs there

[edgy nebula]

i wonder why absolom didnt seem to be affected by the void

[whole holly]

i doubt she got too close, i bet she was careful, then we see she was collecting void in jars

how is that possible, i doubt she had Everbloom, maybe tool for Light?

[edgy nebula]

yeah but even breathing in void fumes for too long can kill you, as we see with pk and the guy in the lighthouse

light is possible i suppose

[whole holly]

yeah, but she seems to have preserved herself with spells

i wonder why she never mixed Void and Silk, Void seems to eat soul, Void can be added to Soul Spells, presumably they can be added to Silk Skills too

[blissful harbor]

a big enough lamp will do the trick, we see that with the lighthouse

once it’s not actively trying to tear you apart i imagine it’s be pretty easy to just grab some of it in a container with tubes and shit

[brave frigate]

What do you think is the chance that there will be either a very large DLC for the Steel City, which was never revealed, although they pointed out the existence of steel beetles, vassals and Patrons. Or maybe in 10 years the third part will be released, telling about a prosperous kingdom, and not a dying one?

[plain gazelle]

personally I'd be pretty surprised, steel stuff feels more like just a way to give us a sense of getting a glimpse into a large and mysterious world rather than a big plot thread they want to make a whole game around

[edgy nebula]

i dont think we'll get a super huge dlc about the city of steel or a new game but i think we'll definitely get something

since they confirmed theyre gonna do something with sharpe

[muted lantern]

can't wait to battle sharpe and his twin sibling dulle

[foggy fractal]

wdym by match gms

its pretty clear that Herrah just wanted a child

[plain gazelle]

herrah explicitly says that isn't what she wants from hornet though

it could be she had hornet for that reason and then changed her mind once she actually saw the cute baby but i think that's overcomplicating it a bit

especially since we know it's very hard for weavers to have children, and they consider it a curse, which provides enough motivation for herrah to agree to pale king's plan

[crystal vapor]

Well Hornet being free to choose her own path likely requires the pale kings strength anyway since if GMS was not properly contained she may seek out the weavers and anyone related to them

Which is what happened

[muted lantern]

Honestly its a really heartwarming concept. Herrah having hornet for more selfish reasons, but upon seeing her for the first time, wanting nothing but what was best for her daughters future.

[plain gazelle]

yeah I like the idea narratively

I wonder why none of the other weavers told hornet about pharloom and GMS, since they were all on the be-our-queen train. I guess just to respect Herrah's wishes?

[muted lantern]

Honestly id love to have more memories of herrah and hornet spending time toghether. Nothing would be cuter than a dream battle as baby hornet play fighting with her mom, kinda like how lion mothers will pretend to be injured by their kids bites, or surprised by their ambushes, to encourage them.

[foggy fractal]

could be the opposite
we know that some of the weavers who fled wanted to start anew

[muted lantern]

I imagine if any weaver tried they would get the most murderous mom death stare ever given.

[plain gazelle]

mom was asleep tho

[muted lantern]

Im talking about back before the sealing, when hornet was a baby

I imagine theyd still be afraid of her wrath even after

Honestly I hope we get deeper herrah and vespa characterization, beyond just mother and teacher.

I wanna know about herrahs personality beyond her dreams of motherhood

and more of hornets complicated feelings on her parents

[foggy fractal]

actually I should phrase that better
the reason why none of the other weavers told Hornet about Pharloom and GMS is because these weavers wanted to start anew, which we know is what some weavers wanted based on rune harp dialogue from weavenest cindril

"Flee, sisters. Flee until your strength exhausts, so far you may escape at last her silken sight.

To start anew, to sustain, free of web and service eternal."

[ornate pier]

Did the weavers want to escape pre citadel or post citadel

Web being mentioned here is interesting

[plain gazelle]

I suppose, I thought red memory was more explicit about the other weavers wanting Hornet to be able to defeat GMS but it's just herrah saying "Weaver, guardian, queen... Those are their desires..."

"queen" definitely evokes the Weaver Queen ending but they could also just want a strong successor to herrah after she goes sleep

[edgy nebula]

pre, the citadel itself was made to keep gms asleep so they could think of ways to escape or kill her

[ornate pier]

This reasoning sounds like more for post

[edgy nebula]

why would they have put gms to sleep if they hadnt wanted to escape before

[plain gazelle]

they wanted to be free of GMS, and after all other options failed (including putting her to sleep), they fled

[edgy nebula]

oh yeah in that case that was post-citadel

[ornate pier]

Its kind of confusing

Cause like

[plain gazelle]

although I think it's not super clear if that's the order of things

[ornate pier]

They mention servitude which wouldnt have been a problem if post citadel

But they also mention the web

And I think you can find bellshrine blueprints in a weavenest or smth

[edgy nebula]

where do they mention this

[plain gazelle]

well i think the idea is that "ruling" the citadel is itself a burden

[ornate pier]

Service eternal, close enough

[sinful nimbus]

They directly say they're looking to escape GMS's sight

Also Weavenests in general are pre-Citadel

The point is showing the Weavers different attempts with dealing with GMS

Weavenest Atla being the one who went on to establish the Citadel, you can see a songshrine bell n all there

[plain gazelle]

yeah but it's not clear if all of those attempts came before, around the same time, or after the citadel (the most successful plan)

[sinful nimbus]

Uh, if the Citadel was established they wouldn't need to deal with GMS

She'd have been dealt with

[plain gazelle]

they definitely did not consider the establishment of the citadel to have ended the problem, I think

[sinful nimbus]

Why would they not

There's nothing really suggesting they believed it would fail and left preemptively and if that was the intent they wouldn't be running from her silken sight

[plain gazelle]

well in the conductors' rune harp the weavers say "Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence." <- implying that the act of maintaining the song is itself a servitude, in their eyes

[sinful nimbus]

But that's not what they were running from

[plain gazelle]

also, both the weavenest Atla and murglin needolin dialogue surrounding snare setter/ruined tool say "to keep us free", implying their freedom has already been obtained, and they're trying to maintain it

[sinful nimbus]

Weavenests are not under the control of GMS

That was their freedom

[crystal vapor]

Well would a rebel consider a rebel base or headquarters to be freedom

Probably not

[sinful nimbus]

Why not

[crystal vapor]

Well because it’s a means to an end

Not the end itself

[sinful nimbus]

Keep us free [from GMS], they are free to do whatever in their weavenests

[crystal vapor]

It’s a place to plan not a place to live

[plain gazelle]

that's not really freedom

[sinful nimbus]

But they are free there so that doesn't really matter

[crystal vapor]

Yes but so are rebels in their bases

[sinful nimbus]

They are indeed rebels in their base yes

[crystal vapor]

Doesn’t mean rebels feel they have true freedom

[sinful nimbus]

What you consider "true freedom" is arbitrary

[crystal vapor]

Was Anne Frank free in the attic

[sinful nimbus]

Dawg

[crystal vapor]

I’m just saying

Is that a place to live

Or a place to hide

She could be a Jew unbranded unrestrained from Nazism

[plain gazelle]

we know their power was waning as they stayed in Pharloom, and that GMS has influence over silk. I think it makes sense that they could still feel GMS's influence even as she slept, influence they progressively lost the ability to resist, until they decided to flee entirely

[edgy nebula]

if we consider absolom, both could be true

[crystal vapor]

But being constrained to the attic itself was a restrain

[sinful nimbus]

But that's not what the rune harp says

[crystal vapor]

The Weavenests would probably be considered cages if anything

The only tiny neglected corners of the world they could hide

[plain gazelle]

which one?

[sinful nimbus]

Also as per the Ballador rune harp we know the weavers expected the Citadel to continue indefinitely until someone came along and got rid of GMS for good

[sinful nimbus]

The cindril one

^^^But its inconsistent with another

[edgy nebula]

dont weavers also write a note to murglin as if delivering it to their home

[plain gazelle]

"free of web and service eternal" could just as well refer to maintaining the citadel as actually working directly for GMS, especially since mask maker says weavers would refer to the citadel as a web

[sinful nimbus]

OK but you left out the actually relevant portion of the text

[crystal vapor]

Yeah I think the act of maintaining the citadel itself would be considered still serving GMS

They were still bound to her in a way

[sinful nimbus]

They are escaping GMS's silken sight

Not the Citadel

[crystal vapor]

Their lives still centred around her

[sinful nimbus]

GMS was asleep when they wrote that

[plain gazelle]

right, and I'm saying that even when she's asleep, they are still under her silken sight

[crystal vapor]

Just centred around containing her

[shy island]

is there a reason Herra’s body is different to the rest of the weavers besides “she was made before so she looks different”? Maybe something to do with motherhood? Or perhaps she wasn’t born in pharloom and that changed something?

[sinful nimbus]

Why would they need to escape that and also proof?

[crystal vapor]

There’s speculation she was actually made from a mite

A uh clothmite or whatevs

That she’s not a true weaver or perhaps not a pure one

Perhaps some intermixture

[plain gazelle]

well we see what happens over time when GMS, even asleep, influences silk, you get the haunting

[edgy nebula]

i dont like that theory cause it's lame and stupid and for bums

[crystal vapor]

Why tho

[edgy nebula]

retcon

[crystal vapor]

I think it’s interesting

How does a mite come to lead the weavers

Isn’t that compelling

[foggy fractal]

no, there is no reason besides a retcon as of now

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah because the Conductors (Not in charge at this point in time) injected silk into everyone

[crystal vapor]

It’s like Yasuke, how does a black man come to be a samurai?

[sinful nimbus]

This wasn't an issue when the weavers were in charge

[crystal vapor]

That’s a cool story hook

[frigid belfry]

theory feels like a retcon forced to become fanon

[sinful nimbus]

They explicitly believed the Citadel would work indefinitely

[edgy nebula]

there isnt any real proof for it so it's a headcanon not a theory

[foggy fractal]

nothing that stops tc from explaning it in a dlc though, but I doubt it

[crystal vapor]

“Real proof”

[crystal veldt]

Could gms heighten any other bug like she did with the weavers?? What happens if she heightens something like a crawlid

[plain gazelle]

right but weavers literally have silk in their body already, don't you think they would susceptible to her influence over time as well?

[frigid belfry]

herrah could just look different to look different, simple as that

[crystal vapor]

What constitutes as real proof

[crystal vapor]

We don’t see much distinction in the weavers tho

[shy island]

Tribe of Mites DLC and at the end there’s a Herra bossfight

[crystal vapor]

And we know it’s hard for them to intermix

[sinful nimbus]

No evidence for that and if they believed it was a problem they wouldn't have written the Ballador rune harp

[crystal vapor]

Because of the trouble of birth

[edgy nebula]

in this case some type of text proving or heavily implying her to be a mite, which we dont have

[frigid belfry]

not really, silk only makes it easier for bugs to be haunted, strong bugs are unaffected

[crystal veldt]

.

[crystal vapor]

Text shouldn’t be considered the only kind of proof

In fact text can be more flawed than observation

[plain gazelle]

i'm not sure what you mean by this

[crystal vapor]

There’s propaganda

Opinion pieces

[edgy nebula]

true, but we dont have anything other than appearance

[crystal vapor]

Mythology

[shy island]

I don’t think the type of bug matters, she’s a pale being at the end of the day

[sinful nimbus]

They believed the Citadel would WORK indefinitely

[frigid belfry]

widow even without a mask has very different hips, we also only really see like 3 alive weavers, the rest are memory/dead

[crystal vapor]

Archaeology is often considered a great way to understand history

Outside of texts

For these reasons

[sinful nimbus]

Up until they died they didn't flee

[crystal vapor]

This isn’t exactly archaeology

[crystal veldt]

What would happen if GMS heightened an already semi powerful bug then, like bell clappers

[crystal vapor]

But it is observing the reality

[foggy fractal]

nothing that suggests she couldn't, but we also don't have any other examples to pull from so we don't know what happens

[plain gazelle]

that's not what the rune harp says?

[crystal vapor]

Mmm perhaps

But Widow def looks more Weaver than Herrah (lol)

[sinful nimbus]

"These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence"

[edgy nebula]

it's weird cause herrah's design was also retocnned

[sinful nimbus]

If the Citadel stopped working that wouldn't be true

[crystal vapor]

How so

[crystal veldt]

How could herrah and PK crossbreed anyways
Can pale beings fuck anything

[plain gazelle]

yeah as in, maintaining her sleep requires you to work your whole life and sucks

[crystal vapor]

Same species

Technically

[edgy nebula]

she doesnt have the big belly anymore

[sinful nimbus]

so her sleep would be maintained 🥴

IE no issue

[crystal vapor]

Or magic stuff

[crystal vapor]

Really?

[pale narwhal]

or maybe it wasn't a retcon and the memory image of her was literally just her head and nothing else

[crystal vapor]

Maybe she just got fat idk

[plain gazelle]

except there clearly is an issue even when she's asleep, that's the whole point of the game!

[frigid belfry]

many species in the game do that, also pk being a hb probably makes the "weavers have trouble giving birth" thing easier

[edgy nebula]

yeah let me find an image

[frigid belfry]

her body is different lmao

[sinful nimbus]

The issue is that she haunted bugs so they stopped singing so she could wake up

[shy island]

Am I then only one that feels a lot of parallels between ss and Bloodborne? Like white ward is basically the Research Hall, Silk is the old blood, etc

[crystal vapor]

Which is why taxonomically they aren’t actually different species s

[sinful nimbus]

So not what the rune harp describes

[edgy nebula]

here

[crystal vapor]

Species are defined by not being able to create fertile offspring with other species

[crystal veldt]

Fair nuff then
What if pale king and GMS fucked then, would they birth a full higher being?

[sinful nimbus]

Where they believe the song will keep going indefinitely

[crystal vapor]

So unless Hornet is infertile

[frigid belfry]

there were definitely some inspiration choices, even from the original metroid

[crystal vapor]

Or there’s magic in play

They are technically the same species

[frigid belfry]

basically yeah genetically, but hb status isnt always genetics, look at pure vessel lmao

[pale narwhal]

or maybe we're just not seeing all of her body

[frigid belfry]

look at the image above

we kind of do

[crystal vapor]

Speaking of genetics and intermixture

[crystal veldt]

Who's mind control would be worse to succumb to? Radiance or gms

[shy island]

aren’t vessels kind of higher beings? Both parents are + they got void goo in them + they can read lore tablets

[frigid belfry]

radiance easily

[edgy nebula]

weavers can reproduce with many other species if we take the cradle cages into account, eva also says weaver reproduction is very painful which doesnt mean anything unless they cant reproduce with other species since weavers are all female

[crystal vapor]

I have a theory that many bugs in this world have less legs than they would in the real world because of intermixture with worms

[ornate pier]

Applying real world definitions and laws to a magical bug game where shrimp have wings

[crystal vapor]

It’s all we have sometimes

It’s loose inspiration

Not exact

But that’s something

[ornate pier]

The definition of species is also extremely controversial and debated irl

[crystal vapor]

I don’t get why lol

It seems very simple to me

[frigid belfry]

basically genetically they should be, but all (who knows how many millions/thousands/billions) vessels arent hb's definitely, being higher constitutes some sort of presence and status, genetically vessels are pb, but hb status they (mostly) arent, id personally argue tk and thk have reached that level

[crystal vapor]

Like the most simple taxonomical classification

[crystal veldt]

Could pure vessel take on lost lace?

[ornate pier]

Because there's a ton of nuance to it

Like organisms that asexually reproduce and etc

[frigid belfry]

literal god top 3 in canon who sealed another god for who knows how long, versus a voided plushie

[crystal veldt]

Who's top 2 Nd 1 then

[crystal vapor]

Oh

I see

Ig when you move beyond animals it probs becomes more complex

But for our animal purposes it seems simple no?

[ornate pier]

Even then there are animals who reproduce asexually

[frigid belfry]

id argue nkg and shade lord/rad, we have nothing on the pk and wl combat wise

[crystal vapor]

What

Really?

[ornate pier]

Yeah

[crystal vapor]

zamn

did not know

cool

[ornate pier]

Even some vertebrates do it

[crystal veldt]

Would pure vessel be able to take on GMS then

[ornate pier]

Like some lizards

[crystal vapor]

holw cow

[frigid belfry]

one on one yes

[crystal vapor]

thats p cool

weird tho

I love that this game is about bugs because bugs are so weird

so alien

[crystal veldt]

Damn.. these pale beings are lowk BUMS...

[crystal vapor]

They can do so much with how they work in real life

And make the game super creepy and bizarre

Is Green Prince supposed to be a mantis btw?

I made a funny comment on a youtube video that he is gay because female mantises eat the males

[ornate pier]

I think so yes

[crystal veldt]

I always took him as like a grasshopper or sometbing

[crystal vapor]

Cool

[crystal vapor]

Mmm that could make sense

[ornate pier]

Recently I learned if this game was anatomically accurate like karmelita and green prince's hearts would look more like sausages than anything

[crystal veldt]

Whos the most powerful out of all the old ones lorewise

[crystal vapor]

I like the conjoined heart its cool

[crystal vapor]

I'd assume probs the uh coral guy

[crystal veldt]

Crust king Kahn?

[crystal vapor]

He ruled like half of Pharloom at one point yeah?

Is that said by the snail shamans?

I think

[frigid belfry]

grasshopper or some mantis species

[frigid belfry]

karmelita one on one, but ckc and his army in total

karmelita was stated by hornet to rival her, and literally delay gms haunting just with her voice

[crystal veldt]

If every great old one took on ABSRAD would they stand a chance

[crystal vapor]

Karmelita being able to slow the haunbting is still weird to me

Doesn't that mean like higher being status?

How could she otherwise?

[frigid belfry]

just really powerful normal bug

look at sly

[crystal vapor]

This is magical tho

Not just physical

Like her song has power

[frigid belfry]

soulsong

[crystal vapor]

hmmm

[river osprey]

the shadow creepers migrated to pharloom

lol

[ornate pier]

Song is powerful in this world

[frigid belfry]

game is called silksong after all

[crystal vapor]

That kind of thing of giving a sort of life to lesser beings feels very higher being to me

[ornate pier]

Point of the shadow creeper is

No matter where you are

If you go far down enough you will find them

[river osprey]

ik

[crystal veldt]

I still don't get why hornet was kidnapped by the citadel mfs
Can someone explain that to me

[crystal vapor]

Why do people think the bugs in this world evolve like in our world?

[crystal vapor]

For her silk

[ornate pier]

Gms wanted to use her for something, presumably wanted to bind her power or use her silk

[crystal vapor]

strong with silk she was sensed and gms wanted silk

To make her more powerful

[river osprey]

She's a weaver, weavers are really rare and she needed silk

[crystal vapor]

Also likely emotional

[crystal veldt]

Couldn't she just get the first sinner or something lol

[crystal vapor]

First sinner is dead

[river osprey]

CHAT

[crystal vapor]

You fight her in a dream

[crystal vapor]

Ye?

[crystal veldt]

OHHHHH

[ornate pier]

A memory but yes

[crystal vapor]

Yeppers

[river osprey]

SINNERS ROAD IS CALLED SINNERS ROAD BECAUSE IT'S THE ONLY OTHER WAY TO THE CITADEL WITHOUT BEING JUDGED BY LAST JUDGE AND THE JUDGES

[crystal vapor]

Indeed

[river osprey]

I realized that

[crystal veldt]

Aren't there runaway weavers in hallownest?? How could she sense hornet and not them

[crystal vapor]

Mind of a higher being in chat guys

[river osprey]

why not widow

[crystal vapor]

Can you give me sentience?

[trail wagon]

omg

[crystal veldt]

Pins on her back made her silk useless

[trail wagon]

This was the last conversation I participated in

[river osprey]

oh

[trail wagon]

And now when I came back it's this again ahhaha

[crystal vapor]

Widow is likely a slave to GMS

One of the last if not the last loyal weaver

[trail wagon]

Actually 🤓 ☝🏻

She's prolly somewhat alive still, cause Hornet can hear the whispering, plus there's some text, which to me sounds like something they would be whispering

[river osprey]

what if there was racism in hallownest

[crystal vapor]

Some sort of weird magic mummy then

[river osprey]

"Go back to pharloom you stinky weaver!"

[crystal vapor]

There almost certainly canonically is

I just gotta think

[river osprey]

and maggots

[trail wagon]

Yeah, and interestingly, there used to be a special mode for Judges, they wouldn't attack you if you haven't killed a single bug to get to the Blasted Steps

[crystal veldt]

Why does hornet need to relearn skills like silkspear and threadstorm in ss?? I get she was weakened but how did she just stop being able to use them

[crystal vapor]

The flies in the slab are punished continuously for something done a very long time ago

They don't even remember what they did

But they still punish all of their offspring

Interestingly even Hornet seems to hate them

[river osprey]

I imagine because of the new baby broodmother in the slab, it would be better

[crystal vapor]

I wonder if it has to do with her Weaver blood

[river osprey]

once you kill the broodmother a weirdly cute tiny uninfected broodmother appears

Saying she wants to lay eggs

[crystal vapor]

Horney doesn't seem into letting them restore

[crystal veldt]

Actually I just realised I have no idea how weavers work
How do they gain silk from hitting enemies??

[river osprey]

she doesn't say anything against it

[river osprey]

they turn soul into silk

[crystal vapor]

Silk is fused with soul in some way

So probs the same way as the Knight

But it gets generated as silk

Silk is a manifestation of soul

Instead of pure soul

So hit enemy - get soul - produce silk - use silk

[crystal veldt]

So why doesn't GMS bind or something then

First sinner and hornet can

Why can't she

[stable violet]

what is your definition of bind

[crystal vapor]

Maybe she’s saving her silk for attacks

[crystal vapor]

I presume healing

Cuz first sinner heals

First sinner is more physical

I think GMS just swipes as a physical attack

Otherwise she’s manipulating giant pins

Or laying silk to trap you

Creating spikes falling rocks

Maybe GMS was legit just not even familiar with Hornets game. What scenario would GMS need to heal other than fighting a half pale being like Hornets

GMS might’ve just easily cleared most of her opponents in the past

Without needing to heal, so maybe it’s just not in her fighting style

[stable violet]

idk the reason but my conclusion is that gms is stupid and forgot

[crystal vapor]

Amazing lore

Actual canon lore for Pale King and the void

Pls let my worm interbreeding creates less legged bugs headcanon be real

[stable violet]

at some point you kinda have to accept that anything that doesnt make sense could be chalked up to just game design/loophole/or something that wasnt thought through

[crystal vapor]

That’s no fun

[stable violet]

for example how radiance can even exist to begin with is a loophole

[crystal vapor]

We lore enthusiasts always try thinking about absolutely everything

Before declaring bad writing

[crystal vapor]

Well she’s in the dream world

[stable violet]

its hard to think that when there are also some users here that are known to shut down any form of speculation

[crystal vapor]

It’s like a different dimension

[crystal vapor]

I know right I had this person shutting down legit everything I speculated cuz I don’t have 101% evidence m

[unique canopy]

Considering First takes longer than a multibinder just to heal 10% of her health, maybe GMS can't heal reliably, and Hornet's improved healing comes from her wyrm heritage

[crystal vapor]

Like this isn’t science class

[stable violet]

or in my case i say something, im told im wrong, months later, they say the exact same shit that was my point before completely forgetting i first made the point to start with

[ornate pier]

It's not actually the dream world

[crystal vapor]

Could also be that it’s not percentage based

[ornate pier]

It's a memory, which works differently and relates to silk

[crystal vapor]

But rather total health based

[crystal vapor]

But you access via dream nail

Not elegy of the deep

[stable violet]

also that isnt what i mean, her weakness is to be forgotten, she made the moth tribe to avoid being forgotten, the loophole is how the hell could she exist if there was a point where moth tribe didnt exist

[ornate pier]

There's no dream nail in this game?

You get forced into the memory through unknown means

[unique canopy]

First actually has 76 more HP than GMS (???????) so it wouldn't make too much of a difference.

[crystal vapor]

Well I don’t think the origin of higher beings is a loophole

[stable violet]

we could speculate that her powers worked differently in the past but that is equally as valid as saying that she was spawned by a separate being and thus she made the tribe, in either case we dont know

[crystal vapor]

That’s like saying the Big Bang coming from nothing is a loophole

Our reality exists cuz of a loophole where nothing created something

[stable violet]

except we know how the big bang formed

[crystal vapor]

How

There was nothing before

[ornate pier]

It also says Cannot use items within a memory if you try to use one during first sinners fight. It's a memory you get forced into, not a dream

[stable violet]

there are literal dozens of videos explaning how the big bang happened

[crystal vapor]

I’ll look one up

[stable violet]

but in laymans terms, its because of quantum physics

[crystal vapor]

Quantum physics is so confusing bruh

[stable violet]

dont ask me how quantum physics works, that stuff is unironically a pain in the ass to understand yeah

[crystal vapor]

Lol

[spark valve]

Memories are dreams

[ornate pier]

I assume radiance was known before the moths but not that widespread

[ornate pier]

Works differently in silksong

[spark valve]

They really don’t work differently

[ornate pier]

The memories are related to silk in some way

The dream realm isn't involved

[crystal vapor]

Basically what I’m saying is that I don’t need to understand the beginning of these gods when our understanding of the real world “god” or big bang is so complex and theoretical anyway

[ornate pier]

So it's different

[spark valve]

Yes it is

[ornate pier]

It's literally not

[spark valve]

It’s essence in silk

[ornate pier]

Essence doesn't show up anywhere?

[floral venture]

Why am I seeing quantum physics being brought up in this channel?

[ornate pier]

It's just some weird property of silk

[spark valve]

[[Seer]]

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Seer

[crystal vapor]

We talking about how the Radiance could exists without the moth tribe which it itself created

It’s a chicken or egg situation

[ornate pier]

Wtf would the seer have to say about silksong

[spark valve]

Go read the dozen times she calls memories dreams

[floral venture]

Memories ≠ dreams

[spark valve]

Memories are dreams

[ornate pier]

The dream realm can have memories yes but the memories we see in silksong do not involve the dream realm in any way we know of

[floral venture]

Dreams are defined in the first game, they're a result of the Radiance

[ornate pier]

It's always related to silk

[stable violet]

personally i just think radiance came to being likely from a similar manner to how the nightmare heart formed but really i dont have proof of that, i just like to follow the "the correct answer is likely the simplest one"

[ornate pier]

Essence doesn't even appear anywhere in silksong

[spark valve]

Yes they do they behave identically

[sinful nimbus]

huh?

[ornate pier]

It's more so the opoosite

[ornate pier]

Not really

There's no essence in the memories

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not really sure how they behave differently

[ornate pier]

You can't see essence anywhere in silksong

[sinful nimbus]

Whats different is aesthetics

[floral venture]

How so?

[sinful nimbus]

Radiance is made out of em

[spark valve]

There’s no visible essence in the abyss memory either that’s a dream

[ornate pier]

I'm not really talking gameplay

[sinful nimbus]

Neither am I

[ornate pier]

Memories in silksong are never related to the dream realm in any way it's shown as some weird property of silk

[floral venture]

?

[spark valve]

Silk contains essence

[sinful nimbus]

When you beat her up she explodes into essence she's also described as a light

[spark valve]

Things that contain soul often do that e.g. Kingsmould mould

[sinful nimbus]

It doesn't really need to explicitly relate to the dream realm when the dream realm is the universes established magic realm relating to all mind stuff

[ornate pier]

I feel this is making an assumption, no?

[spark valve]

Nope

[ornate pier]

Never really said anywhere

[floral venture]

It does

[stable violet]

at some point you also have to kinda make assumptions but thats just me

[floral venture]

Nowhere does it explicitly state any of this

[ornate pier]

It could just be that memories are part of the dream realm but silk can also contain them seemingly

[spark valve]

Silk contains essence

The substance of thoughts

[ornate pier]

Cause to me otherwise the memories in silksong would probably have been related to the dream realm we know of

[spark valve]

They are

[sinful nimbus]

Memories being made out of essence is established by Seer's dialogue

[ornate pier]

The memories in HK aren't silkrelated

[sinful nimbus]

It'd also be the baseline assumption if that wasn't true but I digress

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah cuz you don't access them with a silk spell...

[floral venture]

Is essence not inherently linked to the Radiance, though? /genq

[spark valve]

It’s not

[ornate pier]

It's the other way around

[sinful nimbus]

Radiance is a dream being who has a lot of control over dreams that's about it

[floral venture]

👍

Seems reasonable with silksong's memories then, but it's also entirely plausible that silk works memories differently imo

What's to say that this isn't a product of the silk of GMS specifically?

[ornate pier]

I guess silksong memories being essence inside silk could work but I don't think it's concrete

[sinful nimbus]

Whats to say that in the first place

[plain gazelle]

i was under the impression it's all the dream realm, hornet just has to access it differently because she doesn't have dream nail

[ornate pier]

Because ik essence doesn't always show up in the dream realm but it is just fully absent in silksong

[sinful nimbus]

Why are we making unnecessary assumptions instead of going along with the franchises established magic system

[floral venture]

Gotta keep an open mind

We don't see essence in the game at any point, so we can't say anything definitely

[sinful nimbus]

Keeping an open mind only entails engaging with ideas not agreeing with them

There just isn't any reason to agree with this AFAIK

[floral venture]

Yep, hence why we're making assumptions, to answer you

[floral venture]

There's no mention of essence in the game

[sinful nimbus]

But there are mentions of things made of essence

[plain gazelle]

do you mean the actual little dreamcatcher-like sprites from HK?

[ornate pier]

Yeah

Which is essence

[plain gazelle]

because the Knight also doesn't see any essence, or anything dream related, until they get dream nail. Hornet doesn't have dream nail, so we can't say how much of it could be floating around pharloom

[floral venture]

That logic is flawed. You could argue that anything made of essence is present through this, which isn't true

[ornate pier]

You'd think if you're getting pulled into the dream realm which is probably all essence you'd see it floating around

Either way

[sinful nimbus]

What

[ornate pier]

Ik it doesnt always appear floating around but like

[sinful nimbus]

You could argue that but it'd be absurd and wouldn't line up with the evidence unlike what I said

[floral venture]

"There are mentions of things made of essence" doesn't mean that there are

[sinful nimbus]

Uh

You know I'm talking about memories right

[floral venture]

Yup

[sinful nimbus]

Which are made of essence according to Seer's dialogue

So they are made of essence and therefore essence is in silksong

What's hard to understand

[floral venture]

There is no essence shown in silksong 😭

[sinful nimbus]

OK but there doesn't need to be for us to know its there

[spark valve]

hollow knight fans can't read

[floral venture]

Throwing insults definitely adds to your point 👍

[floral venture]

My main issue here is that since silk is derived from GMS, a pale being, why should it have to function with essence? I'm not saying it doesn't. Your argument is fair, I respect it, but I'm just curious as to why it has to be essence

[sinful nimbus]

Why does that change anything though

Silk is just soul which was already established to be able to hold essence in Hollow Knight so I'm not sure how the properties of silk or its source would change anything

[floral venture]

As far as I'm aware, pale beings have the ability to hold some influence over the minds of lesser bugs

[spark valve]

no

[floral venture]

It does? Could you explain that please?

[floral venture]

Is that just PK?

[sinful nimbus]

But... how does that change anything

[spark valve]

it's a wyrm thing gms is not a wyrm

[sinful nimbus]

GMS also elevated the intelligence of the weavers tbf

[stable violet]

Pale king elevated the minds of bugs, not control them

[spark valve]

that's not the same and it's not a continuous effect

[sinful nimbus]

wym

I mean I guess

[spark valve]

gms doesn't have a general mind altering presence like wyrms

[plain gazelle]

are we talking about the origin of silk or whether the memories in silksong take place in the dream realm like in HK

[floral venture]

fair point

Whilst we're on the topic of dreams and memories, I do have a question; in the red memory, how come Hornet speaks to the White Lady in the present tense?

[ornate pier]

Some people think some higher being psychic phone call shit is going on

And I like that theory so that's what I think

She could just be like talking to the memory tho or something

[floral venture]

So it could be her talking to the WL in real time? Neat

[plain gazelle]

I take it as an indication is that White Lady is powerful enough, and as a pale being is capable enough of navigating the dream realm, that even the memory of her is aware that she's in a memory. Sort of like how some of the godhome bosses' dream nail dialogue indicates that they're aware of what's going on

[craggy smelt]

I say 'yes'
Hornet's perception of Essence seems to be the ethereal silk strands you see in memories/needolin areas etc.
it's just how she interprets Essence, instead of the dream catcher wheelies we see in the first game

[frigid belfry]

Silk is said to just be the bearers soul in the maternium

[sinful nimbus]

Where did the whole dream catcher nickname come from

[frigid belfry]

An objective point of view says it’s that, so yeah

[sinful nimbus]

Oh nvm google is free

[floral venture]

👍

Thanks

[frigid belfry]

There is the theory that the while lady was literally communicating to hornet via hb bullshit dream stuff

It has some validity, but we don’t know for sure

[floral venture]

Are there any other explanations?

[craggy smelt]

magic

[frigid belfry]

Hornet could just be experiencing the memory in a 3rd person view. Like if you had a dream and you reminisced about the time your friend talked to you, he would talk in present tense because it happened at that time

[craggy smelt]

White Lady was foreseeing the conversation and talking to Future Hornet
Past Hornet at the time was like 'wtf are you talking about, is the queen having a stroke?'
No, I like Brungo's view, that even the memory of a god has a kind of presence and agency of its own

[floral venture]

True, and that does make sense since it's the only part of the memory where she speaks

[craggy smelt]

there's no spoiler restrictions in lore

beware

[frigid belfry]

Most intelligent Sk-lore enthusiast

[ornate pier]

Holy shit it's the citadel

[crystal vapor]

I think it would be so dope to see more of the wastes in dlc, another game, or at least another comic

Maybe it’s just the wastes are boring and that’s why they don’t utilize them much but idk I love the scale of the surface. Most things can’t have that much scale in a cave but with the wastes you can have legit dead massive gods that make up hills and mountains, caves in of themselves I just find it so cool

And with how Silksong is kinda expanding the world even beyond Pharloom with little hints of other civilizations out there, the wastes are the great bridge between them all

The wastes are what most of the world is and learning all about that would be so dope

I wonder if the few bugs that are sentient out there are maybe not so much like the Grimm Troupe but rather completely practical non religious bugs

[pale narwhal]

we could always get the story of the weaver in eighth part that was found there

[crystal vapor]

Hugs that have created their own culture separate from any higher being

[crystal vapor]

That could be cool

Idk it’s like there could be a weird sense of community in the chaos of the wastes and everybody trying to survive

In contrast to the complex political conflicts that often exist in the civilized caverns

[craggy smelt]

it would be very cool to see a region in-game based on that original HK concept art

[crystal vapor]

It’s just a ton of common bugs from all over with their ancestry somewhat lost

[crystal vapor]

This is so dope

Shockingly extremely bug like art in a weird way lol

Like as in super creepy

Usually the bugs we see that are meant to be creepy aren’t even as creepy as this

Maybe it’s just the artistic direction

[craggy smelt]

they're drawn much more realistically than what's typical

this was a very early piece ofc

[crystal vapor]

I like to imagine most bug faces underneath their masks are somewhat realistic but I think that’s probably been disproven somewhere

There’s this widow fan art that I saw recently on Twitter that kinda encapsulates this

And Herrah fanart

I know Team Cherry sometimes wanted to add things specifically to be unsettling

Like they tried making charms in Hollow Knight unsettling in some way by having them fuse with the shell in some weird way

They seem to have had a lot of loose concepts like this

[ashen ferry]

what do they mean to be continued in the shroom ending

[craggy smelt]

that Mister Mushroom shall return...

[ashen ferry]

breh

[craggy smelt]

it happened in the first game too

[ashen ferry]

in lacesong

[craggy smelt]

blech

[craggy smelt]

some bugs don't even have faces under their masks, apparently
speaking of unsettling concepts

[strong gorge]

im always intrigued by that one specific weaver whom we met in the original hollow knight game. she just dipped as soon as lil ghost saw her

[floral venture]

Who?

[honest sun]

remind me, are vessels pale beings or are literally ''vessels''? they have void inside them or they ARE void inside?

[craggy smelt]

they are the Void within, the Shade
the 'pale' part of them is the shell of the pale child the Shade animates

[muted lantern]

their shell is pale but they are mostly just imprints of void inhabiting dead shells

[floral venture]

I find it difficult to really consider them as truly Pale tbh

At best, they're part-pale

[honest sun]

pk made the vessels at his workshop and then throw them to the void right? or????????'''

[muted lantern]

no, he put the egg into the void and they hatched there

after the void seeped into the egg

[strong gorge]

in weaver's den in deepnest. the knight meets a weaver but she runs away as soon as we see her

[craggy smelt]

constructs like Wingmoulds etc. were made in the workshop

[muted lantern]

the thing you dreamnail in birthplace to get to void heart is the egg knight hatched form

[floral venture]

Are you sure? I don't recall there being any

[strong gorge]

im 100% sure. I've had 3 different walkthroughs and it has happened everytime

[craggy smelt]

it's true

[strong gorge]

and no one really talks about it

[floral venture]

I've never heard of this before. That's actually fascinating

So there is a live Weaver left, that wasn't captured?

[muted lantern]

at least as of hollow knight

who knows if shes still alive

[floral venture]

That's insane??

How have I never heard of this

[honest sun]

did hornet even fighted thk in that ending or something????

[honest sun]

yea ive seen her but no one talks about it

[floral venture]

A whole ass Weaver

😭

What

Why do they run?

[honest sun]

its right there alive and kicking why don they talk about that

[honest sun]

mmmmm maybe because they think we r about to oblitare them or smth

[floral venture]

Tbf, do they do anything at all?

[floral venture]

True- 😭

[honest sun]

no they just run offscreen

idk if we can kill it

[floral venture]

Ah, that's probably why

Shade soul. Hm

Probably does nothing

[honest sun]

ive seen her in my playthrough too but ive never though about trying to kill her

maybe we cant

[floral venture]

I'd assume we can't

I've never seen her

[real torrent]

I've 100%ed silksong but

I feel like I understood a fraction of the lore

[honest sun]

just watch 1h lore video and youll know and then forget tomorrow

i did the same with hk lore

[floral venture]

The lore is really good imo

(I say, as I'm fixated)

[strong gorge]

its extremely good

[honest sun]

im still waiting for this im CRAVING IT

[floral venture]

Fr fr

[craggy smelt]

pretty normal for hollow knight, really

[timber pond]

Well,its a little less esoteric this time around and more of "History erasure".

The Weavers bassicaly spun a web of lies that permates throughout pharloom in layers

Think of silksong like a big "Iceberg" List that you descend(ascend) down as you go further into the game

Hallownests history wasnt necessarily erased by active factors, but more of just a slow passage of time. we can clearly see each tribes history independently.

While silksongs is Layered.

Because The weavers tried to erase each other and it seems other factions would actively Vy for dominance.

[trail wagon]

Is the knight the older sibling of hornet or younger

[frozen hornet]

iirc Hornet is the youngest

[frigid belfry]

eh we technically dont know

the vessels could have been born before or after the dreamer project

its more likely that the vessels are older though

[foggy fractal]

tbf a lot of it is left intentionally ambigious or just not told, mostly the origin of things, for example: where did higher beings come from ? or why is there a dream realm ? stuff like that

[swift needle]

I have a theory where all higher beings other than the void come from the lands of serene cuz of the everbloom having a "pale light" and ze mer literally being pale.

[foggy fractal]

that doesn't explain non pale higher beings

[wheat locust]

Non pale beings and essence beings exist too
Plus Grey Mourner could literally just be pale because she's dead, she isn't fully alive and kinda just evaporates after you grant her last wish

[lean temple]

Since when was Ze'mer pale in any way

[wheat locust]

She's light grey

That's on the scale of Pale

[wheat locust]

And some parts of her are white

[lean temple]

So is Greyroot

[wheat locust]

Hes dark grey

[lean temple]

Doesn't mean she's a pale being

If one is a pale being it will be stated. The only ones we've seen are either gods or descendants of gods, and Ze'mer is neither.

[wheat locust]

I never stated she was

[sinful nimbus]

Grey Mourner is alive

She just oogways after her business is done which is standard fantasy stuff

[wheat locust]

I just said she was Pale

[wheat locust]

Pale ≠ Pale Being

[lean temple]

My bad. Usually when we say pale we mean PB yknow

[wheat locust]

Yeah

[edgy nebula]

team cherry says theyre gonna have a bossrush style dlc.. surely these are the two unused dungeons from the kickstarter

[craggy smelt]

are we sure they haven't already made content that constitutes a 'dungeon?'

I think of Soul Sanctum as basically a dungeon

maybe the Hive too

was there any detail about them besides 'dungeon?'

[edgy nebula]

dungeons with a unique theme and boss at the end iirc

we know coral tower was one of the dungeons so we can imagine the others to be similar

so we dont really have any others like it i think

[craggy smelt]

yeah, I would look at Soul Sanctum and Hive as dungeons in that sense

maybe the Ancestral Mound

[edgy nebula]

does hk have the same setting where you see backer credits under the names of bosses as silksong? if so we'll know if the hive or soul sanctum were dungeons

[foggy fractal]

no

that's a new addition that appeared in silksong

[limpid summit]

oh word?

Who has that

[dire lynx]

who has what?

[muted lantern]

girl what are you even doing

I had no clue she could even appear here

[unique canopy]

At least Grindle's honest about looting the dead

[foggy fractal]

by that if you mean which bosses has the credit under their namecards its karmelita and khann, the setting also will credit Seth

I can't find any screenshots rn but in seth's case it would be
By Seth Goldman
underneath his namecard in the bottom left

[muted lantern]

Is trobbio not a backer character?

[foggy fractal]

no, trobbio is named after his va at the very least, could be that he designed it too, but it is not because it is a backer character

[visual glacier]

He isn’t

[muted lantern]

His naming scheme is very in line with backer characters in the spirits glade which is why I assumed he (as in named after the person who created them, which seems pretty frequent if you compare the spirits glade characters and the backers who made thems names)

[foggy fractal]

fair enough

[limpid summit]

Oh chill

That’s awesome

I think they probably let Matt contribute to Trobbio for free

[solar tapir]

Why do scar ants have rosaries? They are do not trade with anyone.

Trophies?

[tawdry flare]

do you want them to not drop rosaries

[solar tapir]

What

I wanna know why they are drop it

[muted lantern]

does anyone have the cut post widow lace dialogue?

[limpid summit]

Here?

Wow

I didn’t know there was so much cut dialogue

[muted lantern]

ty

[limpid summit]

They’ve probably collected it and use it as currency cause it’s shiny or something

Or as trophies

They likely don’t really see the religious aspect of it

[muted lantern]

we know at least one skarr who trades in rosaries, so its possible they use them as currency too, the citadel is so dominant that other cultures adopte their currency for convienience and trade

[solar tapir]

hmm

trophies and currency at the same time

ok

[whole holly]

hey do you think vessel could trap GMS in it's own body similar to Radiance?

[stray fog]

Gms exists in the physical world

So no

[whole holly]

it is exclusive to dream living higher beings? i though vessels could absorb forces like soul essence and therefore silk

[craggy smelt]

maybe

when TK seals the Radiance, they hoover up all the Infection gas and juice as well

just shlroping it all down

I don't see why they couldn't do that with silk also

like a big mess of psghetti

[hushed crater]

They can probably seal all her silk making her useless but she still would have some body left I think

[whole holly]

yeah i think that too

[dire lynx]

<@&283547423706447872>

[twin ocean]

Guys, i have a theory..

What if. (first one is hk spoiler)

[cobalt coyote]

Wow this will change silksong lore forever

<@&283547423706447872>

[dire lynx]

<@&283547423706447872>

[flint radish]

nuu is god

[visual glacier]

Mods slacking wtf

[shy island]

is fayforn a higher being?

[visual glacier]

Not as far as we know

[frigid belfry]

we dont know, but its possible

in some translations they are diretly referred to as the "cause of the snow"

[stray fog]

If I had to guess, she isn't one

[frigid belfry]

in english its "heart of the frost"

[visual glacier]

Mistranslation probably

Doesn’t matter either way

[stray fog]

Don't the birds in mt fay refer to their mother? That mother could be fayforn

[visual glacier]

Yeah

Probably

[stray fog]

Maybe she's just a grown up version of those birds

[visual glacier]

Very similar

[stark ocean]

fr

[sonic sleet]

why does last judge make same noises as grand reed

[stark ocean]

theyre probably just similar

[dry lake]

Do we have any lore explanation on how is crust king Khann able to control the coral growth?

[lean temple]

Bcz TC reused the VA's voicelines

[bleak ridge]

0.2/10 game

[sonic sleet]

Its funny they made 2 separate voice actors make same sounds

[lean temple]

It's the same VA. They reused her lines

[stray fog]

She voices so many characters btw

In skong

[lean temple]

Yeah

[sonic sleet]

But grand reed has a male VA and last judge has female VA

[lean temple]

Where does it say Grand Reed has a male VA?

[sonic sleet]

Nowhere but sounds grand reed makes are definitely made by a guy

[lean temple]

The "bano" line is just copy pasted from Last Judge

They could have multiple VAs

[long warren]

yall what's the timeline for skong rn im thinking it's

1. gms arrives
2. weavers
3. Weaver rebellion, first sinner imprisonment
4. those remaining create the citadel pilgrimage system and in-state the conductors?
5. the rest leave or die off
   (sometime around 4 or 5 silk from the cocoon is used as fuel in stuff like whiteward and others)
6. haunting begins, gms takes basic control
7. creation of phantom and lace?

[sonic sleet]

6 and 7 should probably switch places

[bleak ridge]

Iirc the citadel was set up by the weavers before they left as said by conducter balladors dialogue?

[long warren]

8. hunting of weaverkin

[long warren]

? how were they made by gms?

[sonic sleet]

phantom is older than lace so it means they weren't created at the same time so it's kinda hard to tell exactly when they were created

[long warren]

true, but i do think they were made during the haunting bc I dont see them roaming pre haunting pharloom

perhaps phantom was made during the earlier stages of the haunting while lace was during the period where the haunting was similar to the current pharloom we see?

id assume the silk taking over bugd was gradual , especially with that one conductor mask that's in the sand

qall of text spam

https://tenor.com/view/text-gif-25230823

[sonic sleet]

I think phantom was created some time before haunting while lace was created when gms was almost in full control

[long warren]

hmm

actually that might be true esp with phantom (controlling?) the exhaust

[pale narwhal]

Lace also makes me wonder how concious GMS was despite being alseep

[long warren]

which we know was definitely pumped into pisslands eventually

[long warren]

more than the dreamers id assume

being even more conscious as more silk was pulled out of the cocoon for whatever purposes the citadel needs

[bleak ridge]

Phantom was created some time before the haunting and was discarded somewhere around the time lace was created maybe?

[long warren]

I wonder did phantom help kr follow the citadel?

we see her working in the exhaust pipes redirecting thr fumes

[bleak ridge]

Probably neither lel she's probably working against her will considering her needolin dialogue is something like "free me"

[sonic sleet]

also another weird thing is that karmelita and green prince are assumed to lived in familiar times but for some reason green prince holds up very well while karmelita is very old

[long warren]

huh never knew that

[long warren]

sinners road taking care of him well

[bleak ridge]

Karmalita is probably just exhausted from constantly singing to her people and difference in species also is probably a factor

[long warren]

perhaps crull n benjin should be listened to

[bleak ridge]

Maybe the muckroaches taste pretty good

[long warren]

who has dialogues about phantom

does gms or lace have any?

[bleak ridge]

Surprisingly I don't think anyone directly has dialogue about phantom which is strange

[long warren]

hear me out

phantom is weaver made.

[sonic sleet]

she is forgotten and discarded so no one talks about her

[bleak ridge]

Not even indirectly actually, even the Devs neglect her

[bleak ridge]

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[long warren]

hence the shitty craftsmanship compared to lace and why she's bound to work for the citadel

[bleak ridge]

You'd think Groal would have dialogue about phantom considering she's basically what caused Bilewater to collapse

[long warren]

maybe wait for the next dlc b4 the crackpot stuff tho

[bleak ridge]

Phantom is void

[sonic sleet]

Groal does not known anything about phantom he just knows that citadel is dumping their wastes to his home

[long warren]

I mean, does he have any idea what's going on with the organ? wouldn't expect him to know any specifics

[long warren]

nice bio

it's groovy

perhaps never glooby

[bleak ridge]

Both true points I suppose

Still the exhaust organ is in Bilewater you'd think his people would atleast have some idea on where the waste is coming from and tell him

[sonic sleet]

you can't get this from a twisted bud

[sonic sleet]

the mist is blocking the way to the organ

[bleak ridge]

Oh yeah that's actually valid

[trail wagon]

Are fleas dogs of pharloom

[halcyon merlin]

if fleas are dogs is hurting the pervert guy animal cruelty

[bleak ridge]

Hurting all of the bugs would count as animal cruelty tho

Are we the villain

[halcyon merlin]

it's self defense

most of them are trying to kill hornet

[bleak ridge]

Those baby sinner dudes beg to differ

[honest sun]

Has gms ever talked to us? just in silkhearts?

[honest sun]

What is those bugs with spike all around were just trying to get close to hornet but ended up hurting her so she just kill them

[halcyon merlin]

are you talking about the moss ones?

technically well yeah they should be trying to kill hornet in a way

if they are affected by the haunting

[honest sun]

oh yea

[sonic sleet]

what is even purpose of underworkers they use mostly cleaning tools in combat so im guessing they are cleaning machinery under the citadel but my question is why they are doing that the entire place is dirty anyways

[lean temple]

Before the Haunting it's likely they got some actual cleaning done. They also have wrenches and things to fix the machinery

[bleak ridge]

They probably powered certain machines as well as seen with Loam

[lean temple]

Perhaps yea

[sonic sleet]

the thing is that there are many robots that could do what underworkers did

[lean temple]

Slave labor is cheaper

[bleak ridge]

Idk maybe they required too many resources to build on a mass scale

[bleak ridge]

This too

[sonic sleet]

so basically all of this is metaphor for current state of artificial intelligence where instead of robots doing hard jobs and humans doing creative activities it's opposite so in the end humans are forced into labor knowing now they could be easily be replaced by ai

[frozen hornet]

The game was in the making before this AI shit was thing so I don't think so

[sonic sleet]

silksong predicted rise of ai then

[frozen hornet]

Nahh

You're overthinking it

[honest sun]

How big is gms in Hornet units?

Or radiance units

[lean temple]

Like 4 or 5 Hornets I think?

[pale narwhal]

too much dirt can clog up machines and stop them from working

[sonic sleet]

that kinda makes sense automated workers are too worth to be used in such dirty place so they send down bugs that can live there (barely but still )

[pale narwhal]

they dont care about the dirt on the walls eiither
just whatever gets into the machines

[wintry compass]

tbf the logic of machinery and capitalism existed before AI did

silksong depicts that really well

it's not AI in specific, more the way in which labour and machinery exist in today's world

but it describes AI quite well

cuz AI is well, not that different from the way this stuff has worked in the past, only kinda more expansive

[frozen hornet]

Pharloom isn't really capitalist anyway, it's more of a command economy

You can have terrible working conditions under any economic system. It's not exclusive to capitalism.