sk-lore

[whole holly]

cosmology would be great if expanded upon in Hollow Knight

[craggy smelt]

it's tricky, because too much knowledge will spoil the delicious mystery

[cedar skiff]

i wonder why the concept of the ringing bells weakening gms was scrapped

[unique canopy]

They said they had a mechanic in mind for bell benches that they scrapped for adding needless complexity, so it might have simply gameplay reasons

[cedar skiff]

ohhh i see

it seems weird to me still because strung to serve getting cut seems to have happened late in development and the ending worked with that mechanic in mind

[craggy smelt]

seems like if you follow the basic route, it's really easy to get all of the bells
so the only way to get an ending where you 'miss' bells was to go a harder route, like Sinner's Road > Mist Organ > Citadel
and therefore your 'reward' for going the harder route was a worse ending (Hornet is consumed)

maybe that was part of it

[cedar skiff]

interesting line of thought but i think initially the intended way wasnt locked behind the bells

maybe im misremembering cut content lol

[unique canopy]

Yeah there's an early shot of the grand gate door where it doesn't have the bell locks

2022

[cedar skiff]

anyway another thing ive been thinking about when it comes to gameplay being in tandem with lore is which things are locked behind weaver talents such as clawline

i just came across that one door in deep docks on my replay and wondered about this

[cedar skiff]

also damn the game used to be less saturated

[craggy smelt]

in a case like that, I think it just so happens that a weaver skill allows Hornet access, rather than it being deliberately designed to be opened by a weaver ability
deep docks workers presumably had some non weaver-art related means of opening it

[cedar skiff]

yeah thats reasonable

but i think it still shows that that part of deep docks has a higher importance

[unique canopy]

Clawline does do more than just hook onto rings, it just happens that what it does makes it good for also hooking onto rings

And yeah, Forge Daughter does mention that the mining and excavation work done deeper in is pretty important for the Citadel, though she doesn't care about why

[cedar skiff]

i think its also pretty notable that the diving bell is only accessible by going that way first, there is that door you gotta activate first if im remember correctly. obvious as to why for gameplay pacing reasons but works well with the lore

[sinful nimbus]

still curious about this tbh

The interview still left me confused about wtf they were planning

[frosty gate]

Do you mean the Deeper Docks or the bell itself?

[timber pond]

The Bells probably "Restored" t he surrounding area. The benches aperently had something to do with "crafting" and awakened benches would benefit that in some way. That or the benches also changed the surrounding area in silksoul mode

[frosty gate]

That sounds ambitious

Do we think the Bells were made by the Forgebugs?

The Bell Locks i mean

Actually, better question, when did the make the Gate?

I reckon it had to be after the Citadel has a good amount of people

And the Underworks was probably already in motion

I'm wondering what's the next step in the Citadel timeline

[modern hollow]

prolly rebuilding the thing i think

[frosty gate]

I meant the timeline I'm doing, trying to piece together the events before the game, I didn't specify, mb

[modern hollow]

right yea

apologies

[frosty gate]

Dw

[modern hollow]

i do wonder what would become of the citadel after the events of act 3

maybe turn it into a regular city like the city of tears

[frosty gate]

Probably yeah, rebuild it, bring in all remaining Pilgrims

That would probably mean abandoning Bellhart

[modern hollow]

i wouldnt say abandoning bellhart it would prolly just be a smaller town that it is already

[frosty gate]

I mean, Frey is not going to stay there if clientele is better up top

If she gets there first she can sell fucking houses

Pavo would probably stay, same with the Plimney

[modern hollow]

i still think bellhart would fit its niche as a rest stop for pharloom

[frosty gate]

The Collectionist, i forget her name, would probably meet Cardi

[modern hollow]

kinda like a small town whos known cuz theyre next to a major highway leading into like los angeles

[frosty gate]

True, but I mean, would there be a point to it considering they can use the Bellway?

That's like the first thing Hornet should explain to Pilgrims

[modern hollow]

well the small bell beasts prolly cant pull a tram full of people

[frosty gate]

Big Girly can bring a bunch, she'd have to do multiple trips though

[modern hollow]

we also dont really know much bout them in the first place other than they look pretty similar to those guys in the wormways

[frosty gate]

It's not like there's so many of them anyway

There's like 25 people in what's left of Bone Bottom TOPS

Pilgrim's rest is dead

Bellhart was the only other stop

[modern hollow]

flick can fix it

[frosty gate]

Pilgrim's rest?

[modern hollow]

no idea ask mort

oh wait u cant

[frosty gate]

Mort is very dead

I have a theory that, if we do get an Act 4 DLC, Far Fields will be overrun by ants

And they will be pissed

Unless Gilly comes in clutch and learns to speak Skarr

Same with Greymoor but with the Craws

[modern hollow]

considering the main thing that made the citadel in the first place being gms/the weavers not being here they cna prolly rebuild in time

[frosty gate]

Wdym

[modern hollow]

well the skarr were not fond of the citadel right

and consequently gms

[frosty gate]

They don't really know about GMS, but yeah, go on

[modern hollow]

whos to say karmelita doesnt know?

[frosty gate]

Oh yeah Karmel knows

But she's dead

[modern hollow]

before that

like we dont know too much bout the skarrs really

i suppose

[ember river]

And they're the tribe we know the most about

[modern hollow]

i may be dupid.

sorry

[ember river]

Well I guess verdania

But half of that story sounds made up

[modern hollow]

but i always wondered why karmelita didnt really find an heir to the skarrs

especially with her being old by the time we reach em

could the citadel have made it not possible?

[ember river]

We don't really know when they fell

Maybe the Haunting had already started?

[modern hollow]

did the skarr interact with the weavers at all as far as we know

[ember river]

We don't really know

[frosty gate]

Not that we know of, but there's a Nest in their territory

[modern hollow]

considering karmelita was able to sense that we were the ones that brought the void to pharloom whos to say they wouldnt be able to know about the real purpose of the citadel

[frosty gate]

Oh they probably knew

I have no proof of this, but I think they might've had a truce with the Weavers

[modern hollow]

which prolly explains why the skarr are the only other major tribe besides craws that are still going

[frosty gate]

Another theory, i think craws are just kinda new to this

Like, I don't think they're an old tribe

I think there's a period of time within the Citadel where no events happened for a long while until the Forgebugs were Hired

[ember river]

Neither is Verdania

Apparently the green princes were the first generation of rulers

[frosty gate]

Verdania is considered an Old Heart though, and was harrased by the Citadel

I mean the Craws are even younger

And also unimportant

[frosty gate]

So i'm not sure its comparable

[ember river]

To be fair, it is technically never referred to as an old heart since the shamans only send you to the other 3

Craws were possibly just denizens of greymoor who had their own thing going on

Still subordinates to the ones above

[frosty gate]

All things point to a Mafia

[frosty gate]

That is true, it's really weird

[ember river]

It IS pretty mafia-esque

[frosty gate]

They probably messed with the Farmers and eventually things got organized somehow

I think Craws just evolved

Periodically

[ember river]

Could be

A theory I have is that they were used by the citadel to collect rosary beads

Just as they used the reapers to collect thread

So the bugs that died in the way would drop the beads and they'd give them back up

And that's why they scavenge for rosaries and shell shards

[frosty gate]

Wouldn't it make more sense if they just collected beas for themselves?

There's also no indication the ever worked for the Citadel

[ember river]

Could be that too but what use would they have if they're not actually devout

[frosty gate]

Compared to the Reapers

[frosty gate]

Rosaries still buy you things

Like those shiny metal beaks they got

[ember river]

Yeah, from pilgrims, actual settlers have little use for them unless they're high above

[ember river]

I guess that could come from rosaries

Or shards

Shards seem metallic actually

[unique canopy]

All we know for sure about the relationship between the Citadel and craws is that there's plenty of dead craws in Memorium

[frosty gate]

Aren't they bone?

[ember river]

The pristine cores are metallic and break into shards

[frosty gate]

I was implying they bought the beaks actually

[ember river]

Also Hornet can make metallic tools out of shards

[frosty gate]

True

[ember river]

I find that actually less likely than them just melting the metal beads and forging those themselves

[frosty gate]

They don't look like they have the skill to forge themselves

[frosty gate]

Craws are not that clever

They could've asked them made by some Forgebugs

Also, wait a fucking minute

Crawfather is fucking aware Hornet is Weaver

What is up with these dudes, seriously

THEY DON'T FIT ANYWHERE

[fervent sigil]

hmmmmmm

[frosty gate]

[ember river]

Why wouldn't they be

What is this craw racism

[blissful harbor]

xero too

[frosty gate]

Star will crucify me

[ember river]

Xero was suggested as well

But yeah that bug looks a LOT like the karak soldiers

[cedar skiff]

a lot of sk bugs have similarities to hk dreamers

[ember river]

Wouldn't say a lot but there are a bunch of them yeah

[frosty gate]

I mean, they only scavenge and can't even speak the same language, they're also considered "pests"
I don't think they're too clever

But now I'm reconsidering

[cedar skiff]

a scary amount certainly

[blissful harbor]

i like it, fleshes the world out instead of having a bunch random single member bug species

[ember river]

How do they not speak the same language?

[frosty gate]

"Spinderous Spiderling"
He knows she's Weaver

[ember river]

Same

[ember river]

He also correctly identifies her as the cause for the void strings

[frosty gate]

I mean, most everyone does, that doesn't come as a surprise

But to know she's Weaver

That means this dude knew Weavers

Not personally perhaps, but enough

What does Clattorous even mean

[past cypress]

Clatter

[ember river]

Most people who do have interacted with her before

Which, granted, is most people who don't have thread in their brains

In any case why wouldn't they be able to forge stuff, humans were able to work metals before they figured out how to write

[sinful nimbus]

I love my goat but bro did not correctly identify the source of the void strings

He might be a little bit dense

Do you guys think he locked up Grindle and Green Prince

[ember river]

Well he got the closest thing he could guess

If everything suddenly exploded and the same needle wielding spider showed up I'd also be suspicious of her, not really of a slumbering mad god that I don't even know exists

[ember river]

If he did that'd be hilarious

[unique canopy]

Stupid and probably completely baseless idea: craws are the last survivors of Verdania who locked up the Green Prince because they were that pissed off at what happened.

[frosty gate]

Honestly,f air comparison

[plain gazelle]

isn't pinstress a craw

[frosty gate]

No, or at the very least, we don't know

[plain gazelle]

i mean she looks like a squatcraw, uses its moves in battle, and has their bouncy balloons

[sinful nimbus]

She also sings "caCAAAAW"

They're related species at minimum

Might be the same as the Roachfeeders

[torn heart]

is zote the strongest hk char in your dreams?

[lethal burrow]

what do we make of the idea that Phantom predates the Weavers?

[unborn terrace]

she’s older than lace, and I’d consider lace older than the weavers

[ornate pier]

Lace older than the weavers???? Hello?

[lethal burrow]

what brought your mind to that

[unborn terrace]

I don’t really know, considering she probably isn’t, but I’ve always thought that

[lethal burrow]

at least you're honest haha

[viscid ridge]

As far as i know there isn't really a set timeline for when they were created. They were probably made after the weavers betrayal, considering GMSs dialogue implies that she made them because she felt sad by the weavers betrayel. But phantom on the other hand gets no mention, so she is a strange case. She was probably made after the weavers left aswell considering she and lace had a relationship

[ornate pier]

"Better a child spun frail"
"One to wish our waking"

[viscid ridge]

I think both pintresses are stiltkin, cause they have the same floaty ability as the trappers, and has the same 3 pin attack

And they also are completely black with noodle noses

[plain gazelle]

that makes sense too yeah

I think the simplest, most parsimonious answer with Phantom is that GMS created them after the weavers betrayed her, wasn't satisfied with the result, discarded her, and tried again with Lace. But it's vague enough you can headcanon anything basically

[viscid ridge]

Better a child spun pure than them, better a child spun mad than them

[fervent sigil]

is one, i lwk need to check out all spirit glade souls if theyre canon

[ornate pier]

Therefore weavers came first

[inner torrent]

Meow!

[ornate pier]

At least implicitly

[inner torrent]

There is no point in lace existing before weavers

[plain gazelle]

in particular I think there might be some connection between Phantom and Eva since they have strong parallels with their respective tanks and being frail silk beings, but there's not a lot to go on

[inner torrent]

As there is no point in weavers existing after lace

Such is the cycle of things

Such is the cycle of stuff

Oh, excuse me

[viscid ridge]

My question is why? What made phantom so not perfect that GMS thew her away? That theory doesn't seem right to me at the moment. I think we'll get future lore on phantom and lace cause at the moments its very strange

[inner torrent]

What the hell do mr.mushroom dialogues even mean?

[viscid ridge]

I know thats exactly what i argued?

[ornate pier]

That's what I was arguing too from the start

[lethal burrow]

That makes no sense

[ornate pier]

I lowkey can't read

[viscid ridge]

I am pretty sure his dialogue refers to the new mechanics added to silksong. A lit of it matches up

[lethal burrow]

on the subject of phantom and their abandonment: the journal says that Phantom was tasked with the exhaust organ, but this poses the question.... by who? Certainly not grandmother silk who is presumed to be asleep, and even if conscious would surely not like the citadel or care for its structure enough to assign a daughter to the exhaust. no it seems it could only be the Weavers or the conductors, and from there, the reason for phantoms abandonment seems only clear, in one way or another, knowingly or not, she sided with the citadel as opposed to her mother, sided with the very people keeping grandmother silk caged, and for that reason, I can very much see grandmother silk 'abandoning' phantom (in whatever capacity she's able given her circumstances anyways.)

[inner torrent]

Interesting

[inner torrent]

I feel if grandmother can create phantom she should be able to command her

[viscid ridge]

Mr Mushroom
Ive also been wracking my brain about the new mister mushroom dialogue. To me a large majority of his dialogue seems to correlate to different or new features in Ss that wasn't in Hk.

The 1st dialogue talks about going down, but going up is another thing. Like in silksong we ascend to the top of pharloom, but in Hollow Knight we descend down

The 2nd dialogue talks about long strides and small steps. This i think refers to how Hornet is able to sprint and run fast, while the knight had to take tiny steps to get anywhere

The 3rd dialogue talks about elements. This i think refers to how silksong has a bunch of new elemental environmental hazards (lava, frost, muckmaggots, wind) while in hollow knight we only had acid

The 4th dialogue talks about communication. As apposed to the knight, who had no voice to cry suffering, Hornet can speak

The 5th. This dialogue is very beautiful, but i dont know how to interpret it.

The 6th dialogue talks about the past. I think this is referring to the Red Memory and the Birthplace.And the last dialogue speaks for itself i feel

Heres the analysis i saved if you want to look at it

[lethal burrow]

why?

[inner torrent]

First, I feel creating is way more conscious than commandment.
Second, phantom and lace are supported by silk, so it would be weird if she didn't, although... Maybe that's the reason she is grey

[lethal burrow]

But what about the many things I said, though that you could adress

[viscid ridge]

Honestly its still incredibly weird how GMS was able yo created them both if she was asleep. Hopefully it will get explained more in the future

[inner torrent]

Interesting, I like that, I'm curious of how we will find the mr.mushroom again

[echo moon]

I doubt it will

[inner torrent]

I feel if not gms.
Conductors is the most likely.

Conductors era was when gms started to "Wake up".
And conductors were the ones to create such extreme conditions for pilgrims, I doubt gms would even care about pilgrimage roads

[echo moon]

There’s no reason for GMS to desire these roads

[viscid ridge]

I hope it will, cause its a pretty noticeable hole in the lore at the moment.

[echo moon]

It might be one of those things that we just have to accept

[ornate pier]

I feel that phantom sided with the citadel DUE TO being abandoned. But idk

[tepid mountain]

HK had some noticeable holes that never really got filled too. So I don’t see TC doing much to fix that this time either.

[echo moon]

I personally think that GMS’s slumber was never really a slumber as we think of it

weird sentence but whatever

She’s also able to bring the haunting

[viscid ridge]

Its like the equivalent if in hollow knight they never showed where the vessels came from.

[echo moon]

and I guess this maternal drive triumphs over the song

[viscid ridge]

Like what?

[echo moon]

not to say that I don’t want it to be explained

but I don’t think there’s anything there

while it is a slumber the game portrays it more as a prison

[inner torrent]

Wilksong is definitely less obvious than holllwonknight

Wut Maybe that's because we lack dlc

[echo moon]

I doubt a DLC will explain most of the questions we have now

[tepid mountain]

Like uuuh how Pale King was able to teleport his palace into the dream world. If that’s even what happens. How exactly did Radiance get trapped in the Hollow Knight? How did the Pale King die?

[echo moon]

but it’s definitely too early to be certain

[plain gazelle]

I think I disagree with the GMS "would surely not like the citadel or care for its structure" part. GMS wants hordes of loyal pilgrims worshipping and singing to her, she probably loves the citadel in theory, it's just the song putting her to sleep that she obviously didn't intend and she seems to have basically gotten over that by the time of the game (her haunting completely controls the citadel, and all it takes is hornet shouting at her for her to wake up). According to Caretaker Lace acted as the citadel's protector, and she's explicitly acting to try to impress her mom. So why is it so out of the question that the older, weaker child would get relegated to exhaust organ duty?

[tepid mountain]

How Lace and Phantom were created exactly isn’t super important, so I don’t see them addressing it.

The vessel’s origins are way more important to HK than Lace and Phantom’s exact details, because the vessel’s origins are important to the main character.

[ornate pier]

HK especially constantly tells you what happened but not how it happened and the specifics behind it

[echo moon]

I think we know enough about the vessels tbh

[viscid ridge]

I mean they are really important though. Maybe not so much phantom, but most definitely Lace cause she is the whole reason act 3 happens

[tepid mountain]

They are important in that they exist, yeah. But exactly HOW Silk was able to do it isn’t.

It would be interesting to know, but…

[viscid ridge]

I would say all these does have their explanations, with exception to the pale kings death, which i think team cherry left vauge for the sake of the story, and its not entirely relevant to the broader story.

[viscid ridge]

Yea

[tepid mountain]

I don’t think the method of the palace’s disappearance is explained at all.

Just that it happened.

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but every higher being we meet in hallownest has degrees of dream abilities, so its not a stretch to think pale king could transport his whole palace into a dream.

Its even incredibly similar to the process of trapping the radiance in the hollow knight

[muted lantern]

Which haunted creatures do you think would survive post sister of the void? The choir and all the citadel denizens seem to be long dead and resurrected, so they'd likely drop dead, but what about the underworks guys, the stillkin, the craws, the skarr, the judges etc, we never see them getting brought back from the dead, so they might still be alive post haunting, I think a few at least of each group would survive being freed from the haunting, but any voided ones would drop dead

[proper plover]

what even are silk hearts and why do they drop from the most random bosses, like bell beast (makes sense ig) Lace 2 (makes the most sense ig) and the URAVALLED like ??????

[visual glacier]

The unravelled makes way more sense than bell beast bro

[proper plover]

thinking of like, bell beast is a pretty much mandatory boss, lace 2 also, but like, the unravelled is just a side boss that doesnt have any other appeareance other than the fight

[unique canopy]

You're not getting it from the bell beast, you're getting it from all the built up silk that was holding her

[proper plover]

and still, why does bell beast gives a silk heart?

[proper plover]

hmm? but then why lace 2 gives a silk heart but not lace 2? is it the place that gives the silk heart?

[visual glacier]

Did you mean lace 1?

[unique canopy]

Because Lace 2 is at the bottom of the Cradle, which is where GMS is and which is filled with silk everywhere. Plus it's weird there's all those white flowers there, when they're obviously not Everblooms.

[visual glacier]

Or it’s because hornet actually beat lace near death

On lace 2

[unique canopy]

That too. Maybe a combination of both

[plain gazelle]

storywise silk hearts are excuses to get a glimpse into GMS's thoughts, so you get one at the start of the story to establish her, one right before you fight her, and a hidden one for bonus lore

gameplaywise you need one silk heart before you get clawline so they don't have to worry about players getting stuck in places without silk, and the only required bosses to clawline are bell beast and widow. widow gets needolin, so bell beast gets silk heart

[visual glacier]

Fourth chorus used to be able to drop one

In cut content

[plain gazelle]

oh i forgot you need fourth chorus for clawline too

without skips

so yeah that also makes sense

[visual glacier]

Last judge too iirc

Nvm I made that up

It was signis and gron that I was thinking of

[lean temple]

I haven't seen anyone talk about this, but WL in Red Memory is pretty big, which contradicts her silhouette seen on the chair in the WP nursery. Is the nursery silhouette not canon anymore or what exactly happened here?

[sinful nimbus]

Size shifter believers eatin good

If only powdered was here to see this 😔

[lean temple]

Could it be a retcon

[sinful nimbus]

I mean its consistent with a theory that's been around for a long time

But yes Silksong is retconslop 🗣️

Add another to the pile

It would've been kinda cool to see WL's small form though

But her large form frames the scene a lot better

[blissful harbor]

i mean she’s still smaller than in HK tbf

[lean temple]

I agree, but it is weird with the nursery, unless she can rapidly alter her size or something.

[blissful harbor]

WL size changing powers have always been real

[lean temple]

She is but she could've grown over time, between RM and nursery it's a rapid and large shift in size.

[blissful harbor]

but really, i think thst interaction just comes at a point further in time
nursery is around when vessels and hornet are born, red memory is teenage hornet hanging with WL after nursery but before cocoon

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but her small small form

Yeah but she still had to fit in the coccoon entrance

[blissful harbor]

cocoon around her

she didn’t enter it

[sinful nimbus]

true...

[lean temple]

She continues to illude us

[dry idol]

Freind me for a hollow knight and silksong gartic phone

[plain gazelle]

I mean the white lady in red memory is aware that she's in a memory, hornet might literally be communicating with contemporary white lady, hence she's at her modern size. Or at the very least, hornet is conflating her modern look with a conversation she had with her a long time ago

or maybe a chair in white palace having a shape similar to white lady's hair doesn't mean she used to be small 🤷

[lean temple]

Maybe but it isn't framed like that, like with Herrah it's clear the memory is foggy bcz Hornet was too young to remember.

[plain gazelle]

crackpot: the red memory of white lady is post-HK ending, pre-pharloom kidnap

like, it happened a week ago

[lean temple]

WP is in the dream realm

How did either of them get there

[plain gazelle]

white lady yoinked it out of the dream realm and started ruling again, clearly

long con complete, she's in charge now

[lean temple]

Implying she just left her husband to die in sorrow and did nothing to console him.

[inner torrent]

Is the pale king as short as hornet?

[lean temple]

He's pretty short

He's around that size ig

He's taller ig

[viscid ridge]

Hes pretty much the same size as Hornet

[lean temple]

Slightly taller

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but thats just the crown, in terms of the length of their bodies they are pretty similar

[lean temple]

Ig so yeah

[viscid ridge]

Like here you can see, Pale King is about 10 units tall, while Hornet is 8. But if we compare the length pf their bodies, they are both about 4 units. So their horns does a lot of the heavy lifting

[lean temple]

Thanks!

[lone valve]

Why is the delicate flower immortal when it's on Hornet but not the Knight? Especially during the Sister of the Void ending, the flower just gives up???????

[lean temple]

Being from a memory I suppose is what gives it the extra durability. And in EtV we see the flower get singed by the Void, so it is implied from then that its power isn't infinite

(Or being in Hornet's feather cloak could've helped idk)

[solemn hinge]

It wears down, doesn’t give up

[lethal burrow]

she is agile

also knight is void

[muted lantern]

Or ze'mer sucks ass at gardening

[lean temple]

"Hornet: I would not seek it in these lands.** I need its power full, and it is too fragile to sustain here long**. I would seek it in my memory.
Caretaker: Oh ho ho! So you'd have us wrench open your soul, to retrieve the fabled bloom? Can such a thing be done?
Hornet: For another bug, no, but I am Weaver enough to attempt it.
Hornet: In the distant past, I knew the flower. My thread still holds its faint memory. If the Everbloom was grasped strongly enough within my Silk, it could be made to manifest."

Its fragility is still acknowledged, and it seems pulling one from memory gets around that?

Also Hornet had to know that it was even possible for a Weaver to pull something out of memory, how?? Who taught her this?

[craggy smelt]

Maybe they're less fragile when they're fresh

taking a thing from your memory and making it real would yield the thing itself

[lean temple]

I mean the newly grown ones in QG still break easily

And thinking about it, Ze'mer's original batch survived the treck from lands serene all the way to Hallownest

[stray fog]

Either the Weavers or the white lady

[craggy smelt]

hang on, I meant something different

like it depends on what land they're grown in

[edgy nebula]

love how dung defender’s there cause we need to know the height of dung defender

[craggy smelt]

they're fragile in Hallownest for the same reason Hornet mentions she wouldn't seek it in Pharloom because they wouldn't sustain in those lands long

[lean temple]

So wait, where do the ones Ze'mer gives come from

Hallownest or lands serene?

[stray fog]

She probably has a garden

She brought a few from the lands and grew them in hallownest

I think

[craggy smelt]

WL mentions she brought the flowers from Lands Serene
maybe there was an original she gave to White Lady (the one Hornet sees in her memory)
and the others were grown in Hallownest

[lean temple]

Which means the originals from lands serene are gone

[stray fog]

This is bothering me now

I can't think of an explanation

[lean temple]

"A sacred flower is the offering. It is a rare, delicate object. One of a kind. You must cherish it, must act as though it were your own heart."
Ze'mer makes it sound like all Everblooms are like this, but again girl brought them all the way from lands serene

[stray fog]

I was always confused about why she glazed the flowers so much if she had an infinite supply

[blissful harbor]

she canonically probably only has one

the average person isn’t gonna complete DF quest first try

[craggy smelt]

or she does grow many of them

because that is very funny

[craggy smelt]

here's the fucked up thing - what if the original flower is gone because Hornet pulled it out of her memory?

meaning Red Memory was also, somehow, time travel

because that's what this setting needs

[lean temple]

Please don't 😭

[frigid belfry]

etv implied the flower's durability isnt infinite + hornets dive literally travels roughly a third of pharlooms height down into the abyss, then partially back up, much more than the single contact with the shade lord

[lean temple]

Yeah that and the Void was really trying to get Hornet. It makes sense the flower gave out

[glossy totem]

this is really stupid but i skipped a lot of dialouge in my silksong gamethrough and im curious - does Lace’s age ever get mentioned? I know like, GMS created her and phantom and all, but im unaware where exactly it is in the timeline

[craggy smelt]

we don't get anything like a definitive age or anything (no numbers certainly), but Caretaker has this to say:

Look of a child and a mind to match, but her's been up wanderin' this Citadel longer'n most. Even in its long silence, way 'fore you came and roused its ire.

likely one of those 'created to be eternally young' situations - perpetually childish, unaging, unchanging, etc.

[glossy totem]

so

liike

[craggy smelt]

it's gross to ship her with anyone, yes

[glossy totem]

??

i didnt even say anything that bad

yh

uh

ok

[ornate pier]

It's just that this has been argued about here so much because of the ship that that was what was expected to be said

[glossy totem]

ah

i was curoius because i saw a LOT of art of her and hornet and was like. isnt that a child or

[ornate pier]

It's a ship that's been popular before the release of the game

And some people still hold onto it

[glossy totem]

yeesh

[ornate pier]

Personally I think lace is almost indisputably a child during at least the events of the game

But her status post act 3 ending is what's more up for debate

[glossy totem]

wait is phantoms age mentioned??

[ornate pier]

I don't think it's suggested anywhere

Like at all

[glossy totem]

shes like ROTTING thiufh so i assme shes a ton older

[craggy smelt]

presumably they are older, since they are deteriorating

[ornate pier]

She most likely came first but we don't know what they were made to be

[craggy smelt]

at the very least an earlier model

[glossy totem]

and the have no dialogue too

like all we know about her is from the hunters journal/needolin dialouge

man

😢😢😢

[ornate pier]

Some people would argue the thread memory is phantom talking

[lean temple]

Which one?

[craggy smelt]

I feel it's more likely Lace
Phantom looks like she's in a tank, some means to sustain herself
while Lace is outside visiting her, contemplating stuff

[glossy totem]

im assuming the one in exhaust organ

thwres this little tank you can play your needolin at

[lean temple]

Oh yeah yeah

Well I'm like 99% sure that is Phantom talking

[ornate pier]

I would agree too mainly because it matches up well with lace's needolin dialogue elsewhere

[lean temple]

It makes sense the one talking about fading and breaking is the frail old sibling, although I guess it could be lace? Idk

[lean temple]

That's possible now that you mention it

Hmm, yeah am not so sure anymore.

[ornate pier]

The tank stuff is kinda a point but Eva can talk in a tank. Impersonally believe in it being Lace because it matches up pretty damn well with her needolin dialogue in the cradle

[lean temple]

Why her... Mother...
See me cut! See me serve!
A child, too broken...
I will not fade! I will not take!
See me, your knight...
See me, your daughter...

She spun us to fade vs I will not fade

[ornate pier]

Yesh

Yeah

Could be like a Response to phantom, but I see it as like part of her rebellion against gms

[lean temple]

I think it could be both

[ornate pier]

Also "Why us, sister?" and "Why her, mother?"

[ornate pier]

It really could

[lean temple]

I think why her is about Hornet

Why do you want her more than me, mother

[ornate pier]

Yes I know

It is about hornet

Just similar speech patterns

[lean temple]

Oh nvm yeah

Show me strength, spider...
Forgotten...
Discarded...
Silk stretched thin...
Shell stiffened...
Claws quivering...
Free me from this fading fate...
Free me!

She spun us to fade and fading fate go well together

[ornate pier]

To an extent yeah

It does make more sense for the fading sibling to lament over it

For me it's mostly like the speech patterns lining up

It really could go eitherway, at the end of the day

[lean temple]

And it also lines up with Phantom's unspecified neutral gender

Sister referring to lace

[ornate pier]

Oh boy pronouns stuff

Yes that could be it. But in general, they/them has been used for gendered characters a lot in silksong. It could mean something, or it couldn't

[lean temple]

Yeah. We don't really know

[ornate pier]

Actually better example is something equivalent to this

For example bell beast is they/them in the HJ but called a mother

So this shows that, even if pronouns are left ambiguous, gendered terms can be used

Pronouns don't equal gender too so

[lean temple]

Well it's in the Hornet section

And at that point Hornet didn't know Bell Beast was a mom

[ornate pier]

Yeah that is a point to be made. It seems like hornet is inclined towards they/them especially in the HJ

The upper section has called garmond they though, so unfortunately it's not fully consistent either

I really wish tc was more consistent abt this

[lean temple]

Oof

[lean temple]

Well after thinking on the WL nursery thing some more, perhaps it is possible the nursery wasn't the WL, as in not her in her full being, but rather an offshoot of her from her roots that she used in order to be present in the nursery.

[viscid ridge]

I dont think its an offshoot, i think she can just change size. In hollow knight she hinted that she had the abilty, and in Silksong it was confirmed

[lean temple]

Did she? Can you please show

[viscid ridge]

Hornet explains that if she had the physical flower, it would be useless to her, so she plucks it from her memory, which she says will make it last longer

I think i misrembered some dialogue of her talking about her binding. But its fine, we can still see white lady at 3 distinct sizes. One in the red memory, in her cacoon and in godhome which looks to be her biggest.

[lean temple]

That's true, in godhome she's the biggest likely because she's unbound. But it's never stated that she can just alter her size massively. The difference between Red Memory and cocoon could be time but there's not enough time between nursery and RM for her to grow so large, assuming the growth is gradual.

[craggy smelt]

whooaaaa....

fuuuuck...

I hadn't thought of that, but that's an awesome idea

she can cause all kinds of weird sprigs of herself to pop up from her roots

[stray fog]

Isnt this cut content

[minor belfry]

yeppers

[dire lynx]

it still gives insight to team cherrys creative process and vision

[viscid ridge]

Its a cool idea, but there isn't really evidence to show she can split herself between roots. I think the simplest explanation of her being able to change size seems most appropriate.

[dire lynx]

<@&283547423706447872>

[lean temple]

Are y'all stupid or what

<@&283547423706447872>

[dire lynx]

<@&283547423706447872>

[whole holly]

how do they keep doing it?

[lean temple]

Petition to just permaban anyone who does it

[whole holly]

guys, purely theoretically speaking can Void given Bind exist since Void given Focus does?

could idk there be entity that turns into Void given Bind form after ascension

[minor belfry]

Hornets bind is to wrap silk around her to repair her shell, since it's made of silk

"focus" in the original game just meant focusing, whether to focus soul and heal yourself or for the void to have a point of cohesion

[whole holly]

Bind ability of Weavers and GMS, could Weaver hollowed out by Void or GMS in Void sea become Void Given Bind entity

[minor belfry]

Nope

[whole holly]

it is metaphysical like focus, it is equivalent, since we bind weavers

it is form of knight that achieves ability to unify void to point of becoming Void Entity

[minor belfry]

That refers to literally using silk to take their being with us

we use silk to take their silk which somehow carries the ancestral arts

Void given bind makes no sense since it doesn't have silk

[whole holly]

void threads exist, void given focus wouldn't have made sense since it was only instance of focus having anything to do with void, same could be possible with bind, being that has bind ability and void inside them

[minor belfry]

Void thread and void silk is different

[lean temple]

I don't think Bind works like that

[minor belfry]

void given focus literally means it has a focal point

Void given bind isn't a then

Tjing

Thing

[whole holly]

?

[minor belfry]

Thread is NOT silk

the void threads in silksong leached up the silk strands GMS used to capture rhem

void and silk are different

[whole holly]

focal point was achieved with Kingsoul, made from two pale beings, if Soul can be used to attain focal point of void, and silk is form of soul sourced from pale being , i don't get why

[heavy gyro]

godseeker focus is different from soul focus

[minor belfry]

... because silk isn't soul?

what

[heavy gyro]

focus means like 10 different things in the game

[minor belfry]

Void given a focal point is what we know it means
Godseeker focus is a nice lil double entendre

[whole holly]

it is Void with literal form

[whole holly]

i am aware of that, but aren't void threads consequence of silk being trappen in void and trying to haunt kingdom with Silk

[minor belfry]

...void never had a way out of its cavern before, now it does

That's it

[whole holly]

Silk is another form of Soul though, it is made from one beings Silk, it inherits all properties of Soul

[whole holly]

how so? how can it be explained without Silk playing part in it?

[lean temple]

"The dark leeches up, possessed upon the fallen monarch's Silk"

[whole holly]

all the haunted bugs becoming void haunted bugs

[minor belfry]

If I shove a brick down a slide, is the slide and the brick one thin

G?

[whole holly]

thanks

[minor belfry]

Because they were already connected to her by silk, so the void just piggybacked

<@&283547423706447872>

[minor belfry]

no. Silk and Soul are fundamentally different.

[heavy gyro]

there have been like 4 scams already and no mods have arrived

[whole holly]

bad analogy, it mischaracterizes my point

[minor belfry]

The two of them don't become one thing, they're just piggybacking

[heavy gyro]

no? silk is a form of soul confirmed by materium entry

[whole holly]

yeah, Void feeds on Soul and Silk

[minor belfry]

is it?
Nows probably a bad time to admit I never bothered with the materium

[heavy gyro]

silk's properties also line up with many of soul's properties

[whole holly]

i am aware, but silk becomes functionally part of void, i never said they were same thing though

[minor belfry]

anyways, back to this:
...not particularly? It's just that the void is able to climb up the silk and have an easy pathway into the bugs, but maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean.

I just remember her two dialogues for weaving into cloak and leaving

[whole holly]

i mean your explanation isn't mutually exclusive to mine

[minor belfry]

how is it functionally part of void? I don't really understand what you mean

[lean temple]

It's confirmed many times, in the materium, when talking to Seamstress and by TC in the post E3 blog post

[whole holly]

Voids aren't naturally threaded, until they consume Silk, and inherit it's properties

[minor belfry]

in my defense I hate seamstress

[minor belfry]

So you mean how the void leaches up with the thread so that it's essentially one thing (thread and void)?

yeah I was gonna say I think the void just uses silk as a medium

[whole holly]

back to this, Silk has all of traits of Soul, and Void given Focus requires void heart which needs kingsoul, charm with infinite soul

[minor belfry]

I think that's flawed logic
Just void heart results in the knight shade thingy

The Shade Lord requires the Godseekers to attune with it and increase its power, thus focusing on it and the name

[whole holly]

i also said Void and Silk, are functionally same, regardless of how void uses silk, silk is not separately visible

[heavy gyro]

yeah void heart just results in void given form

void given focus needs godseeker attunement

[whole holly]

i already said in analogous situation

[minor belfry]

wdym?

[whole holly]

if all needs of Void heart are met but with Silk as medium instead of infinite soul charm

but can void be given property to change it's form by silk, or Vessel(adjacent or equivalent) with Bind Ability

yeah, i previously did address that

[minor belfry]

Void heart requires the Kingsoul, since it represents the Vessels

[whole holly]

guys let's just imagine if Vessel had bind ability and silk(doesn't matter why or how) and did all the steps knight did (to become Lord of Shades and Ascension to Void Given Focus) could same occur to that Vessel and become Void given bind

[whole holly]

Kingsoul represents two pale beings relationship

how so? they have Bind ability instead of Focus ability, hypothetically

[minor belfry]

And the void heart is a charm born of God and Void

[minor belfry]

Because the focus ability isn't relevant

It's not the Knight's focusing soul, it's the Godseekers focusing on the Knight

[whole holly]

is that confirmed?

[minor belfry]

...yes?

[whole holly]

source?

[minor belfry]

It literally states that attuning to a god increases its power

[minor belfry]

The entirety of Godhome.

The godseeker, the godtuner, the pantheons, everything.

[whole holly]

that's not explicit confirmation that it is Godseeker's Focus that results in Void Given Focus form , since Godseeker's Crest can Focus thoughts, unlike knight innate focus which is broader ability

[minor belfry]

The knights innate focus does nothing.
Not even once is focus required to create the Shade Lord on the Knight's part.

It is canonical that the Godseekers focusing on a god makes it stronger, which is why the Attuned arenas exist.

[stray fog]

Its probably th godseekers doing the focusing, because if it was the knight, why was godhome required to make the shade lord

[whole holly]

how so? Godseeker can only focus thoughts

[minor belfry]

Void given focus is ONLY possible when the Godseeker is focusing on the knight, and we directly see the Godseeker watch the knight.

[minor belfry]

Source?

[whole holly]

Strange mask from a godless land, passed down over time. The design suggests the wearer's thoughts were focused through the crest. Weathered mask

[minor belfry]

because I find it incredibly hard to believe team cherry wrote all that and then decanonized their own writing

[whole holly]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Weathered_Mask

[minor belfry]

And where do you get that it only focuses thoughts, or that the thoughts don't matter for the Shade Lord?

[whole holly]

well, i have more explicit source

[stray fog]

Technically godhome is like a thought

A memory

Dream

[minor belfry]

which are?

[whole holly]

thoughts in only thing that's confirmed, we can't assume anything else since it will be baseless

[minor belfry]

"baseless" point to ONE time the knight focusing creates the shade lord

Even ONE

[whole holly]

i meant source , lol, since you didn't have source

[stray fog]

Theorizing requires slight assumptions

Atleast for hk

[whole holly]

Sister of Void Ending, presumably

[minor belfry]

What does the Godseeker "attuning" do? We explicitly see that the attuning increases power of the beings.

[minor belfry]

Sister of the void doesn't have the Shade Lord and the knight also doesn't focus. Are you okay?

[lean temple]

Well, it flashes on the screen

It isn't "there"

[whole holly]

not entirely unsubstantiated ones, then it is not theory but hypothesis

[minor belfry]

wdym flashes on the screen

the Shade Lord is the monstrosity created by Embrace the Void

[lean temple]

VGFocus flashes on the screen during SotV

[minor belfry]

the Knight's shade is the thing we see in Sister of the Void

[whole holly]

1. yes it does 2. it doesn't have to be visibly heal focusing

[minor belfry]

wait am I tripping

when did that flash on

hang on lemme go rewatch the cutscene

[whole holly]

and who is to say that Void Given Focus is named because of Godseeker's focusing and not Ascending/Attuning Knight's innate ability(including focus)

[minor belfry]

"it doesn't have to be visibly focusing" focusing is incredibly visible, we literally see soul manifest around the knight, that's how it works. Also, literally two messages before that you criticized unsubstantiated theories.

[minor belfry]

Because we never once see the knight focus to create the Shade Lord.

not even a SINGLE time

But we know that the Godseekers focus increases a being's power, and we see the Godseeker staring at the knight in p5

[whole holly]

but he is ascended, along with his ability to focus and unify void under it's will

[whole holly]

not all focusing is visibly only heal focus(dreamers and infection too) and shaman's spiral focus is

[minor belfry]

Your claim is directly saying that the Knight's focus creates it.
I'm saying show me a single time it focused to create the Shade Lord.
Nothing else off-topic. You made a claim, show the evidence

[minor belfry]

Every time the Knight focuses in-game, which is THREE times (dreamers, healing, and containing radiance), we see very visible particles and the knight assumes a very obvious stance. It doesn't do it during EtV because it's not the knight focusing.

[glossy sail]

Could Hornet have used the soul in that snail shaman for herself?

[viscid ridge]

The shade lord is still bery mysterious. I doubt that it is exclusive to godhome. Void given focus implies that the shade lord is void given a singular identity, instead of being split between the shades.

[bleak ridge]

We literally see the godseekers make beings such as the radiance and the hollow knight stronger/reach their peak lmao why is so ridiculous to say they did the same with the knight

[minor belfry]

I said that and Nika said "we only confirmed that they can focus thoughts, not anything else" and criticized it for being "baseless theory" and then whips out this bullshit

[stray fog]

Groal and the soul sanctum bugs used other people's soul, so it is possible
But idk if hornet knows how to do it

[minor belfry]

Presumably since Hornet is a Higher Being she can channel silk through her pale king side but )I believe) we never see her do it

soul not silk

[whole holly]

Radiance is attuned into Absolute Radiance, Knight is attuned into Void Given Focus, godseeker focuses yes but Godseeker focuses their peak form, that is still theirs, it just means knight in his peak form is Void given Focus, that doesn't mean Focus isn't his, Godseeker ascends Knight's innate abilities his ascended Focus is Void given Focus.

[stray fog]

She knows how to extract soul from enemies she hits, but idk about the liquid soul that the shamans have

[minor belfry]

Listen to what I'm saying, not what you think I'm saying.
Show me a single screenshot from Embrace the Void of the knight focusing. Even one.

[viscid ridge]

Soul is silk, but i think either Hornet doesn't use soul cause she doesn't want to, or her being a weaver overides her need to use soul.

[minor belfry]

the knight DOESN'T focus. The Godseeker DOES. The knight ISN'T confirmed to be able to do that. Godseeker IS.

What's more logical: that the knight does something that it can't do and also we don't see it do it, or the Godseeker CONFIRMED to be able to do something that we SEE it doing to the knight is the one responsible?

[bleak ridge]

The knight is a lost godseeker theory

[minor belfry]

I mean, silk and Soul are the same thing but in different forms

[bleak ridge]

They're relative basically

[minor belfry]

please I've been ragebaited enough today 💔

soul is the soul/life force of a user, silk is the excretion of a bearer's soul

I think at least

[bleak ridge]

Interesting theory but what if the shade lord is void

[whole holly]

i think everyone is misunderstanding me

[bleak ridge]

Nvm that seems absurd

[viscid ridge]

Butter in solid form and butter in melted form essentially

[minor belfry]

pretty much

[bleak ridge]

Smooth comparison

[minor belfry]

Then could you kindly state your argument in bullet point form in one message instead of contradicting yourself?

[mossy heron]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/909058509302280222/940513162669752370/image0-3-1.gif

[whole holly]

1.Void given Focus is named VGFocus because it is knight imagined in his peak form, 2.Godseeker does Focus thoughts but that doesn't confirm they give away focus ability to void like candy, Godseeker doesn't give Absoluteness to radiance, Rad is just focused into thoughts that way

[mossy heron]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1248022608390393888/1309163778151022652/togif.gif

[minor belfry]

okay so

1. Entirely wrong. It's names void given focus because it's the void with the Godseeker's focus, which helps attune it to its more powerful shade lord form
2. We literally fucking SEE the Godseeker focusing on the shade lord for the ENTIRETY of pantheon 5, do you have amnesia

[mossy heron]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1103064804182216734/1104118951266504724/kfc.gif

[viscid ridge]

Bro wtf is this 💀

I alsi noticed the thing on widows chest, but i think its just armour like what sharpes or the coral bugs. But i dont think their related i think its just a popular armour design

[stray fog]

A popular idea is that its for the pins in her back

[viscid ridge]

Why?

[lean temple]

Normal Weavers don't have it, so it could be a surgical implement

[stray fog]

Nah shes void

Thats why

[whole holly]

1. not definitively proven, godseeker does focus but nothing confirms VGFocus is though solely godseeker's focus 2.she is just there she isn't visislby focusing soul or essence like knight is

[lean temple]

Yknow the more groups in this theory the less coherent it will be

[lean temple]

Typically armor is more than a single small thing on your chest

[viscid ridge]

I think the shoulder pieces are under the rag, but this is just a theory so don't take it as fact.

But i think its more plausible than the steel heart theory 😅

[whole holly]

Widow could just have regular cloth over her head, idk

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, chad 'its just some armour theory', or sigma 'widow is void and has a steel heart theory' lmao

[lean temple]

I feel an obligation to point out that Steelheart is what Jinn and Zi are, not what the little gem in their chest is called

[viscid ridge]

I know i never argued that

[lean temple]

Yeah I just needed to correct it for the audience

[viscid ridge]

Ok?

[whole holly]

i hope we meet Masters

[whole holly]

yeah, people do use it in overlapping sense

[lone folio]

Maybe it's related to the pins

Maybe they get lodged into the metal thing so they don't fall out

Otherwise Widow could probably just pull them out and bind heal

[whole holly]

does Mr Mushroom have lore implications (that we can decipher or reasonably infer)

[stray fog]

One of his dialogues in silksong is widely believed to be a reference to Celeste

[whole holly]

that's interesting

[stray fog]

One in hk is a reference to hungry knight

[whole holly]

i mean when he is talking to Fayforn seemingly, is enitire dialogue about Celeste?

[stray fog]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Silksong/comments/1oce684/a_case_for_the_hollow_knight_hk3_speculation_lore/

This theory explains mr mushroom's dialogue

And a lot more

[lone folio]

He meditates and has visions and likes to go to different places

[stray fog]

Hes an observer

And a herald

Who goes to kingdoms during the passing of an age

[whole holly]

i know but can his words be deciphered and what does it say about lore,i read that reddit article, Mr Mushroom is linked to Fate? but is he part of mushroom clan? is he character for breaking fourth wall?

[lean temple]

He seems mostly indecipherable

[stray fog]

Hes from the mushroom clan

[stray fog]

Only a few dialogues have been deciphered

[lean temple]

And "might be omnipresent" according to TC

[stray fog]

Its hard

[lean temple]

Or they are spawned from him

[stray fog]

Also, who is mr mushroom heralding to?
He talks to like 2 bugs in silksong

[frosty gate]

Mr Mushroom makes some winks to other TC games, but in Lore, he's still very indecipherable

[lean temple]

Anyone who knows him I guess.

Hornet knows that his presence means great change or calamity (I forget the exact word) will happen

[stray fog]

Passing of an age

[lean temple]

Hornet: So, the Herald visits this land too...
Hornet: If he is here, now, then great change or a savage end is inevitable. He would care to see nothing else...

"Great change or a savage end is inevitable"

[frosty gate]

Yeah, that's still the Passing of an Age

[lean temple]

...I know

[stray fog]

Whatever mr mushroom is referencing is lost media 🙏

That fucker just spews random bullshit

[iron rapids]

Rs

[whole holly]

guys i have question, where is pinstress after we fight her at mount fay?

[heavy gyro]

she stays there

[whole holly]

stays where? can't see her anymore

[heavy gyro]

She just lies on the ground iirc

where you fought her

and you can talk to her again and she says the same thing

[whole holly]

not really , i mean she really isn't there where i fought her

wiki says "After Hornet has both completed Fatal Resolve and found Brightvein, Pinstress leaves Mount Fay and is absent for the rest of the game. "

[viscid ridge]

She seemingly travels somewhere else after fighting her

[heavy gyro]

Weird, she stayed there in my playthrough

[viscid ridge]

I initially thought she was going back to seemstress after fighting her, but she seemingly travels out of pharloom

[whole holly]

just hoped she was somewhere in game

[heavy gyro]

Maybe it was before i went to brightvein

[whole holly]

did you visit brightvein?

[viscid ridge]

So next game is gonna be Hollow Knight: Pins and Needles

[heavy gyro]

Yeah but late

so i guess thats the answer

my bad

[viscid ridge]

She only stays there till you discover brightvein, cause she is the only bug who gives the clue of it

[whole holly]

sad, we should get adventures of pinstress comics, kinda like Quirrel

[inner torrent]

So why does fayforn hates gms?

[whole holly]

source?

[inner torrent]

Maskmaker

[whole holly]

ok thanks

[inner torrent]

He states since hornet got the fayforn cloak it means fayforn is in favor of the destitution of the silk mommy

[hearty hinge]

Not the words mask maker uses

it's along the line of fayforn throwing its lot with hornet and presumably this meaning it recognizes things gotta change

[whole holly]

"I'd not have guessed her so opposed to our threaded monarch, but then she too must have sensed the wretched state of things, and the harsher change to come. " Fayforn literally wants stuff to change and doesn't lile GMS influence and works against it, like Old Hearts and FotF

[viscid ridge]

Maskmaker says she does

[viscid ridge]

My guess is that the fayforn probably nows that the weavers and her don't have the best relationship, so she instinctively sides with the weavers

[lean temple]

Why would she side with them out of anyone. Maybe she just sees GMS as a bad guy

[viscid ridge]

Because the weavers and the fayforn have a deep relationship, but i get what you're saying

[lean temple]

Idk how deep their relationship went, it seems they wanted to commune with her for some purpose

[oblique rampart]

If lace is made from silk why can't she use it?

[viscid ridge]

If a person is made of flesh, why can't they use it

[oblique rampart]

Uhhhhhh makes sense

[viscid ridge]

Exactly, then you would die

[inner torrent]

Do you think phantom rips her own silk when she uses clawline?

[pale narwhal]

beating someone with your own ripped off arm

[serene hill]

killing green prince was an act of kindness and ppl shouldn't feel too bad about it

im actually very surprised that there was so much outrage over this that TC had to patch in nature regrowth after killing him to make people feel less bad

i always viewed it as letting him reunite with his lover in the afterlife, and letting him reminisce on the happiest time of his life before we put him down

he would only be miserable if he continued living. what else was there for him to live for? he had no home or partner to return to

[inner torrent]

I was sad about verdania, not about the green prince

[serene hill]

im also sad about verdania

[fresh badger]

Nailsmith moment

Nailsmith wanted to die bc he had no purpose after making the pure nail but guess what he found sheo

[ornate pier]

Green prince is too devoted to his partner to find someone else methinks

[fresh badger]

Ngl its crazy to justify straight up murder like gp doesnt even ask to be killed? Bro couldve moved on once he finished mourning

[serene hill]

so true

[serene hill]

its been like idk centuries, he'd never move on

[ornate pier]

It's an odd case to me

He was going to be miserable but was killed against his will

And he was specifically resisting hornet's intrusion into his memories and stuff

[serene hill]

its not morally perfect but it doesnt make hornet homophobic or evil

[serene hill]

only before they fight

[ornate pier]

I don't think anyone ACTUALLY thinks hornet is homophobic for this

[serene hill]

when ur just walking around in verdania hes chilling

[ornate pier]

Ig hornet kinda ticked him off by commenting on verdanias fall

[viscid ridge]

Its crazy that some people actually do 💀

[fresh badger]

Like unironically it do be a lil weird for her journal to be insulting about his choice in partner

[ornate pier]

Ts dude never heard of great conchflies lesbian theory

[hasty ginkgo]

The verdanians are an intelligent species. I dont think the conchflies have that level of intelligence

[fresh badger]

So intelligence = cant love a member of the same species?

[hasty ginkgo]

Im simply saying that was most likely hornets interpretation

[fresh badger]

I think thats even worse than homophobia 😭

[hasty ginkgo]

Hornet is a psychopath. Who knows why she writes what she writes

[fresh badger]

True !

[serene hill]

i dont think hornet is being intentionally rude here shes just asking a genuine question to herself

[ornate pier]

Hornet is a racism and homophobia!

The racism stuff is genuinely smth to be debated though I think. Slabflies debate never end

[serene hill]

she's actually very kind and empathetic

i dont like slabflies and neither should u

its not comparable to real life racism

i think 'hornet is racist' discourse comes from the same exact ppl that think the witches crest quest is a metaphor for abortion

[ornate pier]

OK but like they're slaves in a way and hornet wants them to stop breeding

Wonder why she didn't kill broodling

[serene hill]

nurture can surpass nature

[sinful nimbus]

Witch crest is a plotline derivative from Alien

Alien is well Alien so yeah the witch crest abortion thing might just be an unintentional reading stemming from that but it could also be intentional

[sinful nimbus]

?

[serene hill]

maybe she wants broodling to grow into her own person and reject the purpose she was bred for

[sinful nimbus]

??

She says the slabflies should stop breeding after saying she hates their guts multiple times the intent is very clear

[hasty ginkgo]

Shes a spider

spiders eat flies

[sinful nimbus]

The exact wording she uses is "The less these GRUESOME bugs breed the better"

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet doesn't eat slabflies now does she

[inner torrent]

Do you think we will get to see lifeblood spire in the pharloom's bay dlc?

[sinful nimbus]

Its not a predator prey relationship she's genuinely just genocidal

[serene hill]

hornet too was a child with expectations of who she should be forced on her

[hasty ginkgo]

Prove it. Maybe hornet does it after saving pharloom

[inner torrent]

<@&283547423706447872>

[serene hill]

kill yourself

[sinful nimbus]

Burden of proof would be on you

[inner torrent]

To he stabflies attacked hornet tho

[serene hill]

why should hornet have to be nice to ppl who put her in a cage, kidnapped her, and stripped her of her clothes and belongings

[hasty ginkgo]

She hates them if you dont get kidnapped as well

[sinful nimbus]

because genocide.... is bad... even if you were wronged by some people

[ornate pier]

The whole thing is you can get to the slab without being captured and the entries remain the same

[sinful nimbus]

Not a hard concept to grasp is it

[inner torrent]

They still attack ger tho?

[sinful nimbus]

There just isn't a justification for saying that stuff

[hasty ginkgo]

Everything attacks her

[inner torrent]

So I think is justified for her to hate them

Also hornet is not that genocidal, she let the broodchild live

[sinful nimbus]

Well they are haunted and also slaves so they aren't exactly responsible for their actions even if they were it wouldn't be an excuse for Hornet to wish death upon all of them

[serene hill]

the bugs were bred to be cruel and nasty and punish innocent people

[stray fog]

Me when Im only 99% genocidal

[sinful nimbus]

You can advocate for genocide in your journal while also not actively carrying it out

[spark valve]

The slab flies aren’t evil by nature their actions are due to a role forced upon them

[serene hill]

i think ur taking things too literally. its like. twitter level reading comprehension

[sinful nimbus]

So does the fault lie with the slabflies or does it lie with the people who enslaved them

[inner torrent]

But also most "monsters" in real life surge like that

[sinful nimbus]

???

There's literally an entry where Hornet acknowledges they are slaves and says she doesn't feel bad about that

"too literally" is there a figurative meaning to that?

[hasty ginkgo]

i am genocidal toward:chiggers, fleas(irl), mosquitos, cockroaches, stinkbugs, worms, beetle, arachnids

all bugs

[inner torrent]

I mean, people usually don't feel sad about their perpetrator's messed up pass

[stray fog]

Mosquitoes lowkey justified

[inner torrent]

I would get it if hornet was just a distant watcher

But she is literally being constantly attacked

[sinful nimbus]

Maybe not a flex

[hasty ginkgo]

I hate bugs irl

[serene hill]

acab

[sinful nimbus]

"Yeah guys here are all the animals I want to kill" 🥀

[hasty ginkgo]

Especially cockroaches

[inner torrent]

I think we need to recognize the world hornet lives in

[stray fog]

😭

[ornate pier]

Eh I don't think killing irl bugs is morally wrong

[serene hill]

do you take everything super seriously

[ornate pier]

They're not really autonomous

[sinful nimbus]

???

[ornate pier]

And there's trillions of them

[inner torrent]

Uh

[sinful nimbus]

What are you waffling bout dawg

[ornate pier]

They have very simple brains

[inner torrent]

I'm sorry for what I'm going to say

[ornate pier]

Like the size of pinpricks

[inner torrent]

But bugs brains aren't that much simpler than animal's

[hasty ginkgo]

i cant tell you all the times i have woken up at night and a cockroach has been watching me

[ornate pier]

Bugs are animals you mean tetrapod ones probably

[serene hill]

i know bugs are necessary for the ecosystem and yadda yadda yadda i still hate them and want any near me dead

[ornate pier]

The brains are also not as centralizeds

[inner torrent]

Sorry, yeah, mammals mostly

[ornate pier]

None should be driven to extinction

[serene hill]

did i say dat

[ornate pier]

Bug conservation of likemspecies is extremely important

[ornate pier]

No I'm just trying to make my point clearer

[sinful nimbus]

Senseless violence against animals is wrong there's not much about the brain that can change that

[hasty ginkgo]

There are so many it doesnt matter i how many i crush

[inner torrent]

I think we should replace mosquitos with cogsquitos

[ornate pier]

Bht like killing a few that get into your home to me while I try to avoid it, it is not morally wrong to me

[inner torrent]

They are just as annoying as real mosquitos but we have to pay taxes for them

[serene hill]

if there is a cockroach in my room i legitimately cannot rest easy unless i know for certain it is dead

[stray fog]

Thats great man 👍

[ornate pier]

Like I'm chill with spiders but my brother hates them
I don't kill them but let him kill them without issue

[stray fog]

👍👍

[ornate pier]

Cockroaches are pretty gross yeah

[hasty ginkgo]

Violence against bugs is justified. They can attack you. Break into tour house, eat your food, give you diseases by sucking out you blood

[serene hill]

id feel safer with a bear in my room than a centipede no matter how irrational it is

[ornate pier]

I think I only really dislike cockroaches and mosquitoes

[whole holly]

rename sk-lore to sk-morality

[sinful nimbus]

Most animals can do that

[ornate pier]

Sometimes it's just excuses but yes killing those harmful to you should not be much a problem

Especially for something which only is kind of concious

[serene hill]

killing a bug that invaded your personal space out of fear is way different from going out of your way to kill random bugs on the brink of extinction lol i dont think anyone is actually doing the latter

[hasty ginkgo]

I have a gun. Bugs are to small. Other things arent. Also worms

[sinful nimbus]

Heck if anything bugs are less likely to eat your food like I've never seen a spider eating anything other than other bugs because duh

[ornate pier]

I try to avoid killing without reason

[hasty ginkgo]

ribbon worms, tapeworms

[ornate pier]

Spiders get such a bad rep

They don't do shi

They're helpful actually

[serene hill]

centipedes are a okay as long as i never see them or feel them or hear them and they stay away from me 🩷

[hasty ginkgo]

I still hate the way the crawl

[ornate pier]

I barely see centipedes

[whole holly]

yeah, but Hornet is a physiologically weaver and wyrm, i doubt she deeply cares about bugs let alone perpetrators, plus altruism is not where HK Games shine

[hasty ginkgo]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vIK7oqvVpyY

[serene hill]

its a miracle that hornet isnt meaner and crueller considering her upbringing and heritage

[whole holly]

"prove yourself more weaver than a wyrm"

[ornate pier]

Anyways none of this applies to slabflies cause they have people brajns

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet learning to care about Pharloom bugs is kinda a whole thing

Ahh. Know you distort the order of things, Old One. It is a rare want of your caste to serve us mortal bugs.

[hasty ginkgo]

Shes only 15% genocidal

[ornate pier]

Freshfly journal entry still kinda crazy

[serene hill]

do you know what genocidal means

[ornate pier]

"They should stop breeding"

I'm not fully set on it but I think this is a valid point to be discussed

Of hornet being racist towards slabflies

[sinful nimbus]

Scabfly is the worst because its not even a "Haha bugs" joke Hornet just flat out says she doesn't care for their slavery 😭

[hasty ginkgo]

Yes the want to eliminate an entire specues or race

[spark valve]

TC probably wasn’t trying to write her as genocidal but they did it’s a bad couple lines

[stray fog]

Hornet saying that flies should be genocided is the equivalent of us saying that for neanderthals

[ornate pier]

Oh yeah especially egregious one

[ornate pier]

Yeah I don't think anybody thinks this was intentional

[serene hill]

bugs arent comparable to real life people

[ornate pier]

THEY ARE IF THEY ARE SAPIENT

[spark valve]

In hollow knight they are has the concept of fiction escaped you

[ornate pier]

THEY DO NOT HAVE THE MENTALITY OF IRL BUGS

[hasty ginkgo]

Yes

[ornate pier]

I'm crine

[hasty ginkgo]

i should start a campaighn to wipe most bugs from the planet

[serene hill]

shut up

[whole holly]

well yes she wants to save civilizations of pharloom, but she does not feel strong enough altruism or empathy towards bugs, she does have personal connection to some and she also cares about Pharloom, not every one living in it, she does change, but not that much

[stray fog]

Omg guys free money!!?

[whole holly]

i am annoying at fact that Deepnest had a king of higher caste long dead and we don't see him

[serene hill]

promoting crypto to gay hollow knight fans as if we have jobs

[hasty ginkgo]

Maybe shell have a better arc in the dlc

or Zoteboat

[serene hill]

you dont think hornet has a good character arc??

[whole holly]

i mean she does care in endings

[sinful nimbus]

She doesn't really want to save the slabflies like she does for the rest of Pharloom

[serene hill]

if hornet didnt care she'd leave pharloom in act 1

[sinful nimbus]

And I don't think the intended reading of her character is for her to be completely apathetic regarding social issues like slavery

[stray fog]

Gms would kidnap her again

[serene hill]

she wouldn't complete wishes or listen to peoples problems

[ornate pier]

Hornet has a good character arc, it's just that the slabflies are a weird and frankly odd exception to it

[hasty ginkgo]

I didnt say that. Its just nowhere near the quality of say... Jean valjean

[serene hill]

who is jean valjean

[whole holly]

i do, it is mostly about her nature, fighting destiny, but endgame hornet is not 180 degree shift of hornet and that's okay

[hasty ginkgo]

Point made

[serene hill]

hornet in act 3 if it was good: together we are silk song

[hasty ginkgo]

read

book

[whole holly]

well, she was kidnapped by them, trauma probably prevented her from thinking rationally and she only had animosity towards them

[stray fog]

"lace this isn't you"

[sinful nimbus]

But she does not display the same feelings to the Citadel's caste which captured her at the start of the game, and she still despises them if she is not captured

[whole holly]

she has great character arc, but she still maintains her negative traits, which is okay self-acceptance and flawed characters are okay too

[hasty ginkgo]

Also act 3 hornet: i murdered the queen of this land, and the one sustaining it. For fun. If you get skarrsinger karmelita last

[ornate pier]

I can get the citadel caste because they are opressors

[serene hill]

i didnt read one book therefore im illiterate

[sinful nimbus]

The game doesn't call Hornet out on this either

[inner torrent]

If I was hornet i would have just destroyed pharloom so gms couldn't control anyone ngl

[ornate pier]

But I feel like ballador is there to show they were also kinda victims in a way. Idk

[whole holly]

difference is she was in sh*thole naked, maybe minor difference to you

[sinful nimbus]

So as an intended character flaw it falls flat, the only thing it does is make people view the slabflies as disgusting wretched monsters as you can see if you scroll up

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not sure why that would matter

She comes from a "all nude" kingdom

[ornate pier]

There is no nudity taboo in the hollow knight world gng

Hornet casually removes her cloak talking to seamstress

[hasty ginkgo]

Les miserables is a classic work of literature from 1862 i would reccomend anyone read it. At least the abridged version.

[stray fog]

Hornet being naked is more like having your backpack stolen

[sinful nimbus]

Her cloak also has sharp spines

[stray fog]

I dont think bugs care about clothes

[ornate pier]

They don't yeah

Majority of bugs don't wear clothes

[serene hill]

its obviously not the intentional path, you're supposed to do her as one of the three, but since you can get a secret third heart, they kinda had to make dialogue to address this

[stray fog]

And the caretaker ran naked from songclave to bone bottom

[whole holly]

she was in fragile and vulnerable state, and she was in nasty fecal matter, plus she really cares about fair fights, very intensely, that might make difference as well, she was captured unfairly.

[hasty ginkgo]

Why do they all wear clothes then?

[spark valve]

They don’t

[serene hill]

quirrel should be censored for nudity

[ornate pier]

Almost none of them do?

[hasty ginkgo]

No. We dont need to censor quirrel

[sinful nimbus]

Yes its unpleasant but again you could apply much of this logic to the choir captors

[whole holly]

yeah, she is from bug culture with bug standards , of course human standards don't apply to her, neither does morality

[hasty ginkgo]

All the pilgrims and the citagel bugs

[stray fog]

Those are like uniforms

They're repping the citadel

[hasty ginkgo]

Which is a form of clothing

[ornate pier]

Pilgrims the probably the biggest example yes but they're like one group

[serene hill]

sorry but this image is what comes to mind

[sinful nimbus]

And the framing of these entries isn't "Hornet is at an all time low that she can't even think clearly" you are clearly meant to root against and even dislike the slabflies for being gross

[ornate pier]

And they don't seem to care much abt going without it

[stray fog]

They don't feel ashamed when naked, but they can still wear clothes

[whole holly]

Choir was not successfully imprisoned, hornet being hunter she is might have animosity against jailers.

[ornate pier]

Look at like every husk in say hollow knighf

No clothes

[inner torrent]

Quirrel is naked

[serene hill]

as i said before, acab

[hasty ginkgo]

Yes

[ornate pier]

Shakra doesn't wear armor or anything that's her shell
I think this also applies to garmond other than the gold bit but idk

[hasty ginkgo]

no need to censor quirrel

[hasty ginkgo]

I dislike the slabflies. I have to play the whole slab whenever i want to fight first sinner

[whole holly]

hollow knight games should be 18+, after what lore i heard in chat

[ornate pier]

Dung defender, quirrel, the husks, cornifer

Many examples

[stray fog]

That's how games work

[serene hill]

the baby broodling was allowed to live because she has the potential to grow into someone who surpasses the purpose she was bred for and doesnt attack hornet or steal her clothes

[hasty ginkgo]

Why. We havent even talked about politics

And takes baths

[sinful nimbus]

Are you saying she would say the same things to the choir if she was successfully captured because I find that doubtful

Again these entries are there captured or not

She just doesn't like slabflies

[spark valve]

She was successfully captured she doesn’t say it

In fact she’s always captured by the choir and not by the flies

[ornate pier]

Also even then the choir committed atrocities and the slabflies are slaves

[spark valve]

Her getting captured isn’t why any of the entries are the way they are because, and I know this is hard to understand, that doesn’t have to happen before getting the entries

[whole holly]

like i said and i have to say again, she is from bug culture with bug standards , of course human standards don't apply to her, neither does morality or logic atp

[spark valve]

The choir are also slaves

[hasty ginkgo]

Morality is an illusion

it never existed

[whole holly]

not really no

[hasty ginkgo]

#killtheslabflies

[ornate pier]

Kinda ig

[sinful nimbus]

HK bugs are all anthropomorphized and senseless violence and a lack of empathy are obviously going to be frowned upon even in universe

[serene hill]

the slabflies help perpetuate a system of oppression and punishment, they're the ones who take joy in capturing 'sinners' and making them repent for all eternity, even if they are partially victims themselves

[spark valve]

Star they pulled the ‘morality doesn’t apply to this setting’ card to ‘genocide bad’ you may in fact be wasting your time

[sinful nimbus]

They are brainwashed slaves so yeah

[serene hill]

are cops also brainwashed slaves

[sinful nimbus]

No

[hasty ginkgo]

i think this conversation isnt getting anywhere

[sinful nimbus]

Kinda an easy question

[stray fog]

But genocide?

[spark valve]

Cops and slabflies are not the same

[sinful nimbus]

Slabflies are brainwashed slaves so they aren't accountable for their actions, cops aren't so they are

[hasty ginkgo]

How about we switch the twisted bud

[serene hill]

she didnt even commit genocide

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah she advocated for it

[stray fog]

She thinks its desirable

[serene hill]

in that case then almost every character cant be held accountable

[spark valve]

Oh you’re so close

[sinful nimbus]

Well yes most people you encounter are haunted

[ornate pier]

Yeah I do admit I think the slabfly case is nuanced in that they do this willingly but were brainwashed

[spark valve]

So close to understanding the basic concept of silksong’s narrative and why the citadel works the way it works

[sinful nimbus]

Man I wish they put an NPC in the game illustrating that everyone in Pharloom is a slave to the system

[ornate pier]

But like they don't like their situation either

[whole holly]

if star is going to pull, that nudity doesn't bother bugs card, in universe where bugs aren't all that against murder, yes irl morality is inapplicable here

[ornate pier]

"Why was I born in the filth?"

[sinful nimbus]

Maybe they could call everyone a slave or something

[hasty ginkgo]

Okay. Maybe we switch before it gets super political. To the twisted bud

[ornate pier]

Are you talking about ballador? Or the old penitent