sk-lore

[frosty gate]

Oh, fair

[lean temple]

Doubt anybody in modern pharloom has ever seen a Weaver

[frosty gate]

But yeah, that's why I think Nameless Town people were the first servants under the Weavers, tasked to sing, which then eventually became conductors

[stray fog]

The Weavers did brainwash everyone about the citadel

[stray fog]

That's probably what they whispered

[frosty gate]

The second ones were the Vaultkeepers, that's for sure

[sterile jacinth]

That would he so funny

Ooh they don’t look like they’re wearing pilgrim shawls that’s interesting

[frosty gate]

@visual glacier Sorry for the tag, it was you or Sumwan
Shouldn't this one say "Depicting the Pontiff"

[sterile jacinth]

I wonder if they predate the citadel

[visual glacier]

No, why do you say?

[frosty gate]

Yeah, that's the other thing, they don't look like Pilgrims at all

[frosty gate]

The hat is bent by the tip

Only the Pontiff's hat is bent

[visual glacier]

True

[frosty gate]

Cardinius is a Vaultkeeper, but his hat isn't bent

[visual glacier]

That’s a pretty minor thing tho

The body is nowhere near the same

[frosty gate]

To be fair, you've seen Vaultkeepers with and without clothes

Cardinius should be like the ones that attack us

They look different

[visual glacier]

Cardinius and pontiff have a unique body compared to the normal ones

[lean temple]

The bent hat seems to represent the Pontiff

[visual glacier]

Maybe

[lean temple]

I assume the statue is the first pontiff

[visual glacier]

I’m not 100% on board but feel free to make a talk page on the wiki

[frosty gate]

I am pretty sure the Vaultkeepers are just bred

Cardi is just how a Vaultkeeper should look as an adult

[sterile jacinth]

It’s a title passed down in sure

[lean temple]

-# "Cardi"😭

[frosty gate]

Ol Cardi dude

My best friend

[sterile jacinth]

That’s so funny

[lean temple]

Cardi V

[sterile jacinth]

My boy Mizzy

Or Bal

[frosty gate]

But yeah, Cardinius is just a very old keeper

He looks the same

[stray fog]

What purpose did the vaultkeepers serve for the Weavers?

[sterile jacinth]

They kept records

[frosty gate]

He just has the long body

[frosty gate]

They were also priests

[sterile jacinth]

True

[frosty gate]

Envoys of sorts

[stray fog]

Why dedicate an entire part of the big 3 for that

[sterile jacinth]

They are the learned scholars that hoard knowledge

[sterile jacinth]

I think knowledge is pretty dang important

They’re like monks. Scholars of their holy texts

[stray fog]

Oh

Makes sense

[sterile jacinth]

Not exactly like monks but in sure they study the religion

[frosty gate]

They also preached to new adepts

[spark valve]

middle management

[sterile jacinth]

I really like the trope of a librarian or scholar that just hoards knowledge. Little book goblin

[frosty gate]

Helped with the deification of Weavers

[stray fog]

Defecation

🔥

[frosty gate]

Now that I've sort this out in a way

Where does The Slab fit in all this?

The Slab needs a DLC

There's so much lore stuff there and no one to give it

[sterile jacinth]

I think it’s partially a control tactic to keep the faithful actually faithful

It could be stone citadel era and the gilded just liked the idea and adopted it

[frosty gate]

Can't be stone Era, if we assume FS was imprisoned by Weavers

That bell is made in bronze

[sterile jacinth]

Pius isamor is copper or bronze

Didn’t weavers lead during stone citadel? I thought that was explicit

[frosty gate]

I still don't like the Stone/Gilded division people have made

There was something in the middle

[sterile jacinth]

Middle? What do you mean

[frosty gate]

Between the Stone Era and the Gilded Era

Gilded is Gold

Stone is nothing

Isamor is bronze

So are many things in the slab

[sterile jacinth]

Could be. Would this be post weaver?

[plain gazelle]

i didn't think stone era meant there's literally no metal, just that it hadn't been made all ornate yet

[sterile jacinth]

I can see it progressing to continually get more and more gaudy

An overhaul right away might have pilgrims questioning doctrine

[frosty gate]

I guess, it just feels misleading in a way

[sterile jacinth]

Stone Citadel has a very nice ring to it to be fair

[plain gazelle]

it makes more sense to divide based on who's in charge: GMS/weavers/conductors/GMS again imo

[frosty gate]

I think I'm going to think about The Slab later, lets not get out of the Citadel core

[frosty gate]

I did this mostly

[sterile jacinth]

It still pretty neatly divides into stone/gilded

[frosty gate]

Isn't Gilded just when the Conductors ruled and that's it?

[sterile jacinth]

I think the slab was built stone era but because it’s so far away from the grandeur the gilded citadel is supposed to present that it doesn’t need to be so gaudy

[sterile jacinth]

I’m more sorting it into architecture, when gms takes over with the haunting it’s still gilded

Gilded as just a word also fits thematically

[frosty gate]

Are we still debating if Whiteward is or isn't a Weavenest? I never can remember what was the conclusion

And that's part of Citadel timeline

[sterile jacinth]

I have never once heard that and I doubt it a lot

I think it was created when conductors found out silk makes bugs immortal

[frosty gate]

There seemed to be similar architecture

[sterile jacinth]

Where?

[frosty gate]

Let me see if i find a picture, it wasn't my theory, some else brought it up and I still think about it

[sterile jacinth]

They might have used weaver tech but I highly doubt weavers built that. I think they would have known the danger of injecting an angry gods silk into your body

[plain gazelle]

the weavers definitely wouldn't be using it as Whiteward but I could see it being reused architecture

[frosty gate]

Oh yeah it was Lore

[plain gazelle]

that's a bit of a stretch to me

[sterile jacinth]

I can see that being the case

[frosty gate]

Cleanliness aside, it looks really similar

[sterile jacinth]

Might be a remnant of stone citadel

Or reused assets

I don’t want to believe the second option lol

[plain gazelle]

i guess it might explain how the clawline burial spire ended up in underworks? was originally left in whiteward which has a direct connection

but all the other weavenests are on the edge of the map, and in Atla's case that's textually to be far away from GMS

[frosty gate]

I honestly think that WW being a Nest makes a bit of sense, I just wish we had something more clear to grab onto

[frosty gate]

Yes, but Atla was also the one that "Won" and made the citadel

[sterile jacinth]

Maybe not a weavenest just the floor plan at least was built by weavers, I’m assuming as part of the original citadel

[frosty gate]

Maybe

[sterile jacinth]

It is way too close to gms to be a weavenest

[frosty gate]

I think it makes sense because who else would know that Silk would make someone long lived

[plain gazelle]

yeah I'd be more tempted to say this is just what the citadel looked like at large and the conductors never bothered gilding it

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah

White ward is also something out of the prying eyes of most pilgrims

[frosty gate]

And the Weavers wanted to make people inmortal to keep them singing

[sterile jacinth]

It doesn’t need to preform as much as the choral chambers

[sterile jacinth]

I doubt the weavers would ever inject gms silk into bugs

That is really stupid considering what weavers know of their mother

I think that was a conductor thing

[lean temple]

I still wonder about the extent of the Weavers' connections to whitewatd

[sterile jacinth]

“Let’s pick apart the prison of the god we’re imprisoning and use it to make our subjects immortal. What could go wrong :D”

[lean temple]

I mean they are harvesting it

Where do you think the Citadel gets their silk

GMS keeps regenerating it

[sterile jacinth]

I know I’m just saying that was a dumb move from the conductors lol

[lean temple]

Oh well absolutely

I misunderstood mb

[sterile jacinth]

And I don’t think weavers would have made that mistake

Say what you will about them but they were not stupid

[lean temple]

They were smart, but being wise is another thing

[sterile jacinth]

Pfft yea true

Conductors had neither

[lean temple]

The silk syphons seem like Weavetech

[sterile jacinth]

All charisma

[sterile jacinth]

Could he reused weaver tech

[frosty gate]

They used Silk to make seals

Seal they used to stop her

[sterile jacinth]

I have no issue with that lol

[plain gazelle]

i could believe that the weavers were already using the silk siphon. they built first architect, right? and they're silkfly powered

[frosty gate]

I don't think it's a stretch to think Weavers didn't fully know what GMS was able to do

[plain gazelle]

but the rest of whiteward is almost certainly a conductor operation

[frosty gate]

I don't know about the rest, but I'm unsure if the First Architects was a machine or not

[sterile jacinth]

Messing with her silk is probably not something they would do

[sterile jacinth]

Could be the case but we don’t know who built the first architect

[frosty gate]

They put her in a Loom and harvested her

[sterile jacinth]

Weavers? I doubt it they have their own silk

[plain gazelle]

Well, since the robot architects are programmed to follow Weaver orders, whichever was the first robot architect was probably made in Weaver times, hence silkflies were already in use

[sterile jacinth]

Aaah ok

Yeah silkfly extraction makes sense

Injection I think wasn’t weavers tho

[frosty gate]

I mean, not for them but like, think about it

Only a chosen few have access to the Cradle

Who else is going to set up a Loom

[sterile jacinth]

I think they know some of how powerful silk can be they weave it

And if that source is their angry vengeful god mother I think they’d steer away from it

[sterile jacinth]

I think that was the conductors

With the loom

[frosty gate]

I have to doubt the Conductors had the nerve

[sterile jacinth]

Their ego is a bit inflated

[lean temple]

Who built the crescent around her cocoon?

Oh I remembered a detail

The spike hooks in the cradle are identical to the ones in Weavers' Den

[frosty gate]

That's actually a perfect question, i was so centered in the loom I didn't even think about the Crescent

[sterile jacinth]

I know it’s so neat

[frosty gate]

The Crescent also doesn't look Gilded

[lean temple]

It's probably old and faded as hell

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t know what the purpose of the crescent is

[frosty gate]

Isn't it part of the loom?

[sterile jacinth]

Doesn’t look to be

[frosty gate]

Well, unless my knowledge falters, Gold can't rust

nor fade

[stray fog]

Its somehow used for farming the silk? No idea how though

[sterile jacinth]

I doubt it

[lean temple]

In one way it makes sense for the Weavers to harness GMS for mass production of Silk. I doubt they injected it though

[frosty gate]

And Gilded means gold

Or covered in gold

[sterile jacinth]

It does

[lean temple]

Although the syphons are odd

[sterile jacinth]

Notably it does chip off tho

[frosty gate]

I think they did, someone had to make up those sugeries and for that you'd need to know a lot about Silk

[stray fog]

It doesn't oxidize, but it can get dirty

[frosty gate]

It also matches with the Weaver's desire to keep GMS eternally asleep

[lean temple]

The surgery being a solely Citadel thing would make sense if not for their use of syphons for what I assume is recycling

[frosty gate]

And what better for that than inmortal dummies?

[sterile jacinth]

Using her super powered silk directly into bugs? Eh seems really ignorant

[frosty gate]

That said, everyone has failed to mention this

[frosty gate]

They weren't particularly clever

[sterile jacinth]

Weavers? One of their most notable features is that they’re smart

[frosty gate]

And I'm a fair loser sometimes so i bring it up myself

[lean temple]

In their time the Weavers were constantly drawing in more bugs, perhaps as the trickle in lessened the Citadel had to resort to immortality?

[frosty gate]

Caretaker dialogue does make it sound like it wasn't weavers

[lean temple]

Was gonna say they never mention Weavers alongside whiteward

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think the pilgrims lessened, I think the conductors got greedy. Both with wealth and with life itself

[frosty gate]

Yes, Caretaker make this whole thing fall apart

[sterile jacinth]

Weavers were terrified of gms. I think they wouldn’t touch her silk with a ten foot pole

[frosty gate]

They did recycle it though?

[sterile jacinth]

They have their own silk I don’t think they need that

[frosty gate]

I mean they can't produce infinite silk

At some point they have to think about options

[sterile jacinth]

Yes but it’s much better than the alternative

They did leave for a reason

[frosty gate]

Also, do you think Silkflies were made with their own silk?

[sterile jacinth]

Could be. It seems more likely to me that they’re made from entire smaller bugs souls

[frosty gate]

True

I still think had a hand on Whiteward though

Maybe not the surgeries

But the rest

Last question about Whiteward is the when

Probably Stone Era

[sterile jacinth]

I think maybe they laid down the foundations and the conductors did conductor things

[frosty gate]

Before Forgebugs came

[lean temple]

Darn Pious Isamor and his stone era

The timeline is so fuzzy istg

[frosty gate]

I hate that propaganda machine

Why the mention though

[frosty gate]

Yes, too much lore and the gaps are too big

I know people disagree, but HK wasn't this confusing

[sterile jacinth]

At first it definitely was lol

Sk is a lot more explicit with the actual story

It just has like more things that actually happened and more forces at play

[frosty gate]

Yeah, but once you piece the story, the timeline is easy to understand

Here we piece the story and we still don't get the timeline

[sterile jacinth]

Omg

[lean temple]

This. Which I believe is bcz Silksong is just bigger and more ambitious

[sterile jacinth]

The rule of pk was probably a lot shorter than Pharloom as a whole

[frosty gate]

I mean yeah

[sterile jacinth]

Also there were less factors at play

[frosty gate]

Less "eras"

[sterile jacinth]

Yes but also less groups

[frosty gate]

Not really? There were a lot of groups, they just weren't that involved

[sterile jacinth]

In hk there’s like pk ofc moths mantises spiders and those are the important ones

Well ofc there’s more I meant to say there’s less important lore impactful ones

[lean temple]

Shrumals mosskin and Bees

[sterile jacinth]

Aah yeah you’re right

[lean temple]

There are 6 main factions pre PK

But like yeah we kinda know the gist of each one

[sterile jacinth]

And in sk there’s a lot and their relationships are more complicated I’d say

Doesn’t help that most of them are way past their prime

[frosty gate]

True

[lean temple]

I mean karak is stated to have ruled half of Pharloom

[sterile jacinth]

Sk is also just a bigger game lol so more stuff is crammed in

[lean temple]

That's insane

[sterile jacinth]

Yea exactly

[lean temple]

All the factions in Hallownest were self contained except the Ancients

[sterile jacinth]

And the snails but they seem isolated and nomadic anyway

[nova basalt]

So what exactly are the Pilgrims and Citadel worshipping? I highly doubt most of them even know about GMS.

[sterile jacinth]

I think it’s the song itself and the salvation it promises

[frosty gate]

So as of right know I've got:

1. GMS makes Phantom (This is absolutely out of my ass)
2. GMS makes Weavers
3. Weavers sing for GMS
4. Weavers get tired and start plotting
5. Five Weavenest are made to plot different ways to deal with GMS
6. Out of the five, only two succeed (Atla and Cyndril)
7. Weavers lure the people of NT
8. First conductors are appointed
9. People preach about the Citadel
10. Vaultkeepers are tasked to Preach to new people and bring them in
11. Pilgrimage starts

[plain gazelle]

I think at first it was Weavers, as seen with the effigies, but the conductors scrubbed them out of the picture and now it's a pretty hollow religion that doesn't worship anything concrete

[stray fog]

Did atla succeed?

[sterile jacinth]

lol there are things I disagree with on this list. This game is so good at being clear

[stray fog]

Because eva failed

[frosty gate]

They have a Warding bell prototype in Atla, so yeah

They made the Citadel

[stray fog]

Oh

Crazy

[frosty gate]

Or at least came up with that plan

[sterile jacinth]

I can try
-Karak
-gms with the weavers
-weavers plot to get rid of gms (build citadel) also no more Karak
-weavers establish religion and the weavenests
-other old hearts sometime around here
-weavers flee, gilded citadel
-gms starts to regain strength, makes phantom. Phantom fails, makes lace

[frosty gate]

You're welcome to, what do you disagree with?

[frosty gate]

Oh wait, let me be clear

FUCK EVERYTHING ELSE IN PHARLOOM

I'm doing the Citadel

[sterile jacinth]

Ooooh ok

[frosty gate]

I'll figure the rest out after that

The Citadel is extra convoluted

[sterile jacinth]

I think it was built by weavers as a trap

[frosty gate]

At first in my timeline I had like all the tribes and stuff

Then realize

[sterile jacinth]

I also think the weavenests were after the construction of the citadel as like labs to test other ways they can possibly kill or keep her contained

[frosty gate]

"I can't do this because I keep tripping on the Citadel shit"

[sterile jacinth]

lol they are a big rock in everyone’s shoe

[frosty gate]

So deleted everything and decided to put the Citadel in order before I go through the rest

Specially because some stuff, like the Karak, are just weird to place

[sterile jacinth]

Yea they are lol

[frosty gate]

I would agree that Weavenests could be after GMS got imprisoned but not after the Citadel

Still, Cyndril kinda disproves that being the case

[lean temple]

Don't Karak say they are last against GMS?

So Verdania likely fell first?

[sterile jacinth]

Ok I’ll try again
-weavers made
-weavers pissed, make citadel as a trap
-gms defeated and put to sleep
-weavers build other stuff cause they’re scared their mother will wake up
-weavers flee
-conductors fuck shit up, inject silk, make it about wealth
-gms starts to regain strength, creates phantom, phantom fails fails, creates lace
-haunting <3

[sterile jacinth]

Gms, not the citadel. It’s tricky

Verdania makes no mention of gms and gp talks about gilded citadel

[frosty gate]

Yes, but Verdania didn't fall before Karak

[stray fog]

How'd you decide between the haunting and lace's birth

[frosty gate]

And the Skarr are still kinda there

[lean temple]

Karmelita cursed GMS specifically iirc, and GP "caught beneath a being pale"

[sterile jacinth]

I think they were around the same time

[sterile jacinth]

Oh really?

[frosty gate]

Hornet said that, not Gay Prince

[lean temple]

Well he didn't correct her

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think Karak would have accepted the various fractured Skarr tribes as a real threat

[frosty gate]

He also didn't react to it

Or hate her for being Weaver AND Pale

[lean temple]

Karmelita:
All for you, my hunters strong...
...Remember, my children...
...Curse the creature pale...
...Remember the song...

[sterile jacinth]

Interesting

Shit that fucks things up even more

God damn it

[plain gazelle]

I think my preferred interpretation would go:

• Old Hearts
• GMS arrives, starts conquering, uplifts Weavers, her faction starts building the citadel to worship her
• Atla leads the weavers in secret rebellion, hijacking the citadel construction by playing their own song that puts GMS to sleep
• Weavers realize GMS still has influence on them through their silk, look for a more permanent solution
• can't find one, feel their power weakening, decide to run away and leave a few people behind to turn into chozo statues so their descendent might come back and reclaim the throne
• Conductors take over, realize silk can make them immortal, silkify everything
• Haunting

[frosty gate]

No, the Citadel was built to trap her

Specifically

[sterile jacinth]

They left instructions for the conductors

[frosty gate]

I'm impressed no one said nothing about me putting Phantom's creation first

[sterile jacinth]

You said it was out of your ass lol

[frosty gate]

Fair, it's just a cool thought honestly

[sterile jacinth]

I also doubt that I think they were an experiment after the weavers betrayal

[plain gazelle]

yes, but I don't think the weavers made the whole thing from scratch only after putting her to sleep. GMS explicitly wants people to sing for her in worship, I think the early construction of the citadel was under her instructions, the weavers just hijacked it

[frosty gate]

She was asleep after the betrayal

[sterile jacinth]

Daughers betrayed you? Why not make one that literally needs you to survive?

[lean temple]

GP dialogue:
His whole he gave, in desperate trade to see our own caves left safe. His shell and soul became the mould.
So long, I dared not visit… Even as our lands fell to thread and ruin… Instead I wasted, a coward caged, too weak to witness his grace bound in parody so cruel.
Hornet: Take some solace, tall bug. His soul is now free from that shell of iron,** and the fate that befell your lands, this Citadel too has been claimed full by it.**
Aye… Slim consolation, warrior, now that everything I loved is lost…

[sterile jacinth]

Asleep but not powerless

[frosty gate]

I mean, we don't know what she could do while asleep

[frosty gate]

So they fell to the Haunting or so it seems

[lean temple]

What does GMS say in the silk heart cutscenes? In what order does she list her children

[sterile jacinth]

She created lace and controlled like an entire kingdom

[lean temple]

Or to GMS's power🤷‍♂️

[frosty gate]

Mad, frail, pure

[frosty gate]

She's half asleep with the Haunting

[sterile jacinth]

Yes she has more power but she’s not powerless

[frosty gate]

She's fully asleep before that

[sterile jacinth]

I wouldn’t say so

I don’t think you can fully make a god sleep

[lean temple]

Also
Than none
Than none
Than them

[frosty gate]

Did i nail the Mad, Frail, Pure?

Damn

[sterile jacinth]

I think she had enough strength to make another child. It’s what she wants, it’s what she’d put her whole effort into

[lean temple]

Yes

[frosty gate]

I honestly think it had to be before, while GMS was still awake, so she could be properly "discarded"

[lean temple]

Also,
From our Silk... A child born loyal

Mad, frail, pure, loyal

Ugh

[sterile jacinth]

I think you can discard a child even while like at half power

[frosty gate]

Plus, Phantom was tasked to take care of the Organ

[sterile jacinth]

That thing confuses me. I don’t think gms made them do that

[frosty gate]

No, it had to be Weavers

Coaxed her probably

[sterile jacinth]

Weavers?

Interesting

[frosty gate]

Yeah, I think they just said

[sterile jacinth]

Organ doesn’t seem to be stone

[frosty gate]

"You either work and we keep you fed or we let you die of starvation"

[sterile jacinth]

Before the betrayal I don’t think gms had a reason to create another child

[frosty gate]

I think she just wanted children

[sterile jacinth]

I think making one so dependent on her for survival was a reaction to the betrayal

She did but before that she had dozens

[frosty gate]

That's why i think phantom was first

She made a being of pure silk

Saw it didn't work the way she wanted

And decided to ascend some random animals

[sterile jacinth]

Maybe. I doubt it

[frosty gate]

And Said

[sterile jacinth]

Weavers make no mention of another silken being

[frosty gate]

https://tenor.com/view/dropping-the-toy-andy-woody-toy-story-2-discarding-the-toy-gif-18416123041951678616

[dry flame]

hi

hola

[sterile jacinth]

Buenas días

[frosty gate]

I mean, i don't think they care, no one cares about Phantom, not even TC

[frosty gate]

Hello

[dry flame]

hola buenos dias

[sterile jacinth]

True I just think they’d mention phantom if they knew of their existence

[frosty gate]

And then again, who else is going to task the daughter of GMS to play the organ

[sterile jacinth]

Rip phantom you duck up the dime line so bad </3

[frosty gate]

Not even Lace does 😭

[sterile jacinth]

Stretch but conductors. They could have rebelled

[sterile jacinth]

Except that one needolin spot in the organ

[frosty gate]

We killed Phantom and Lace gave no reaction to that shit

[sterile jacinth]

Phantom I mean. As a revenge to their mother they play the organ

[sterile jacinth]

Probably split paths and all that

I don’t know

Lace might subconsciously see her sister as a failure

[frosty gate]

That could be it, but I feel like it could be both

I think it makes sense the Weavers told her to play or die

If Lace could kill all the Citadel, Phantom could've too

Well, most

[sterile jacinth]

Issue with that is the organ does not look weaver built

Lace is mommies special little girl

Phantom is not

[frosty gate]

Not everything has to be Weaver built to be controlled by Weavers

[plain gazelle]

i feel like you can stick phantom literally anywhere you want in the timeline for how little we know about them

[frosty gate]

That said, I'm being absolutely honest

[sterile jacinth]

True I just doubt they’d build the organ to look like that lol

[frosty gate]

The Organ makes no sense in itself

In a timeline

It doesn't fit ANYWHERE

[sterile jacinth]

Double purpose musical instrument and waste management 🔥

[frosty gate]

Yes

[sterile jacinth]

Seriously. I put them after citadel creation and before lace. That is a very long time

[frosty gate]

Honestly I'll keep her as the first attempt of a child

Before Weavers

But honestly, there's nothing supporting nothing

Phantom is a terribly handled character

And I can't defend TC about it

[patent vault]

coincidence?

[sterile jacinth]

Yes

[plain gazelle]

i don't think it's terribly handled to leave characters mysterious/unknown

[sterile jacinth]

Phantom is meant to be forgotten. That’s their whole character unfortunately

[frosty gate]

Unless the character is the first daughter of the main villain and should have a relatively important role

[sterile jacinth]

Thematically I think they’re more like all the vessels thrown into the abyss

While lace is THK

[frosty gate]

I remember the Siblings more than Phantom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Siblings make sense in lore!!!!!!!!!!!!

Phantom fit's nowhere

[sterile jacinth]

I think phantom makes sense but I can understand your frustration

[plain gazelle]

i mean, it's never even stated she's the first daughter

[frosty gate]

She's older than lace

[sterile jacinth]

That doesn’t mean older than the weavers tho

[plain gazelle]

i find her very memorable because she has a kickass fight and sound track

and because she's weird and mysterious

[sterile jacinth]

Yes mist to phantom music is peak

[plain gazelle]

probably

[frosty gate]

Oh yeah, I didn't mean that she was the first in order, I meant before Lace

[sterile jacinth]

I agree with that

Lace acts like a youngest child

[frosty gate]

Honestly going by stereotypes

[sterile jacinth]

Shes a brat but i love her

[frosty gate]

Lace is the attention starved youngest child

[sterile jacinth]

For sure

Phantom is middle child lol

[frosty gate]

Weavers are the rebellious brats as middle childs

[sterile jacinth]

Forgotten middle child

[frosty gate]

And Phantom is theater kid elder child who no one cares about because she should take care of herself

"Wdym you need my silk? Go fetch your own"

[sterile jacinth]

Fuck you kid
throws you to guard bilewater

[lilac hedge]

The other 272627 kids in mist

Be like

[sterile jacinth]

Ugh timeline

Those are probably projections of phantoms pain

[frosty gate]

You know, it also makes sense Weavers forced her to work there because she guards the Citadel that way

[sterile jacinth]

Not actual bugs or bug souls

[frosty gate]

Ugh timeline indeed

This is why i stick to the Citadel

[lilac hedge]

Aint they like gms scrap

[frosty gate]

Nope, they stop once you reach or kill Phantom can't remember which

They also look like Phantom

"Not a bug but a projection of another's will in smog and Silk."

[frosty gate]

Same dramatic pose an all

[inner torrent]

Since the background is black this looks like if phantom had small feet

And short legs

[unique tangle]

i knew that mask looked familiar somehow

just couldnt place it before

[lone folio]

Very much so yes

The two middle dots have a very different position on the skull

And the eye shape, and the size placement and number of mandibles

I have also seen people compare the silksong vengefly dudes to shamans staff which is also a big coincidence

It's just a basic bug skull

[lean temple]

No way TC reuse some assets, shocking.

[red cedar]

why gms haunt pharloom? I haven’t watched the 2 hour lore vid yet so I need a short explanation

[sinful nimbus]

She needs control so she can gather more silk and wake up by getting the Citadel to stop singing

[lone valve]

Was the Shade that appeared in front of Hornet at the end of the Sister of the Void ending the Knight or the Hollow Knight?

[plain gazelle]

the knight

[muted lantern]

the knight, thk's shade is notably absent in the scene

[mild adder]

Mainly so they can keep the ambiguity between DNM and ETV endings

Either way only two endings out of 5 can be canon now
Unless hornet was carrying Ghost within herself this entire time and he was able to leave her body only when she was fully submerged in void with no protection

I genuinely thought that after DNM hornet had ghost in herself since when she “dies” she explodes into darkness before it gets wrapped in a cocoon and when she gets her cocoon back there is a black silluette of her that falls apart on cocoon destruction

I also thought that mainly due to hornet’s weird conniptions she got at the beginning of act 1 and 3 when the edges of screen darken

Sure it could be that she is wounded but it seemed more like something suddenly came over her rather than exhaustion or woundedness

[ornate pier]

All endings are canon, but silksong only follows 2 (Or at least sister of the void does)
And silksong doesn't happen if sealed siblings does
That is how I see it

[mild adder]

Silksong is a sequel, which disqualifies 3 out of 5 endings canon or renders one entirely irrelevant, that is the delicate flower ending

[silk dirge]

all endings can be canon to weaver queen and twisted child if you really wanted them to

only 2 endings are canon to sotv tho

[mild adder]

They can be canon solely for HK standalone but with silk song, they most certainly aren’t

[ornate pier]

Silksong really does not have to follow EVERY hk ending

[ornate pier]

Yeah

[mild adder]

Again, HK standalone, pick your favorite ending

Silksong, only two apply

And no I don’t care about ancient quote from the devs lol

[velvet bolt]

🤔 trying to describe Styx (and maybe also the huntress/her kids? they look similar) but coming up short

what sort of real-life bug does he seem to resemble the most?

[visual glacier]

They aren’t the same jsjk

[craggy smelt]

caribou

[visual glacier]

Styx is wearing a mask

[velvet bolt]

True

[visual glacier]

Also different limb count

[velvet bolt]

🤔

[muted lantern]

huntress could be wearing a mask too, were it not for runt showing otherwise

[velvet bolt]

Body-wise, I’m just trying to figure out what Styx resembles most closely

I was kind of stumping myself

[visual glacier]

Cicada locust or sum idk

[velvet bolt]

Obviously a lot of bugs aren’t based on any one specific bug, but there are definitely some they resemble more than others

[muted lantern]

Shakras most comparable species remains an enigma to me

everyone calls her a wasp but theres just no way

[sinful nimbus]

Antlion 🗣️

[velvet bolt]

I’ve seen a decent number of people compare her to a wasp bc of her abdomen

[muted lantern]

there is an orange one

[muted lantern]

the dragonfly looking tail kills the comparison for me

[velvet bolt]

Although none of the spider characters are really shaped like IRL spiders

giant heads and no visible abdomen

[trail wagon]

☮️ ???

[dreamy isle]

||why was lace laughing after hornet saved her in true ending||

[trail wagon]

Probably she remembered 100+ Lost Lace fight tries

[lean temple]

She's always laughing. That's just her character. She's likely a bit unstable in the head.

[trail wagon]

she's like mentally a child pretty much

[azure shoal]

Is Grandmother Silk biologically Hornets Grandma

I mean if grandmother silk is herrah's mother then yes but idk that part

[craggy smelt]

'biology' is tricky when it involves a divine entity made of magical silk transforming other creatures with her power
but essentially yes, GMS is Herrah's mother, and therefore Hornet's grandmother

[azure shoal]

So hornet basically fights her aunt (lace)

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah

[craggy smelt]

killed her other aunts (widow, phantom)

[stark ocean]

shes laughing at the fact that she only now realized that her mama truly cared for her, after she died

probably

[muted lantern]

Hornets family tree is a goddamn mess lmao

[azure shoal]

...Good point.

[narrow horizon]

Because her favorite activity is ragebaiting hornet

[narrow horizon]

No

Grandmother Silk is not related to any of the Weavers

[azure shoal]

Wait isn't the reason Lace fights hornet because she's jealous

[narrow horizon]

Aggressive ragebaiting

[azure shoal]

Lace ragebaiter

[narrow horizon]

Lace loves ragebaiting Hornet

Her love for ragebaiting Hornet became so powerful she trascended her physical form and astral projected her soul to ragebait Hornet further

[narrow horizon]

Not really

[narrow horizon]

GMS is not a grandmother. She is the Godly Mother, the one who uplifted the base Pharlids into the Weavers by infusing them with silk. Lace is a construct made of silk because GMS wanted a loyal child which the Weavers failed to be. GMS believed that creating life out of pure silk would make her completely loyal which worked in a way because Lace is dependent on GMS' silk to maintain her form. We can see Phantom deteriorated over time after being discarded by GMS. So no, Hornet and Lace are not biologically related because Lace isn't biological and the Weavers aren't literally children of GMS, they were existing lifeforms independent of her before their transformation. Also they do not have a familial relationship so Lace is not Hornet's "aunt". It doesn't work like a family tree. Grand Mother Silk is a mother in the way you would say "Mother Teresa" or refer to Christian priests as "father". Mother is a religious title in this case. She is the Grand Mother not grandmother.

[muted lantern]

i mean the weavers are very much gms's children, at least by gms's standards. just not biologically

[muted lantern]

she is a mother to the weavers, at least she considers herself to be "she called us daughters" and all that

[dire lynx]

as biological as lace is, the weavers were transmuted with the same silk that lace was created from

[craggy smelt]

if you consider Silk's biology to be silk-based, then even the weavers and everything are related in that sense
silkologically

[dire lynx]

Hornet and the vessels arent siblings, because vessels are simply void beings inhabiting the body of hornets actual siblings.

[narrow horizon]

First Sinner states she lied about being their mother

[craggy smelt]

FS considers it a lie, given the Weavers true origins
I wonder how GMS herself felt...

[narrow horizon]

The weavers existed before GMS, they just weren't "weavers." They were Pharlids that were "enlightened" by GMS with Silk, making them Weavers, where they then worshipped her, and she used them as servants and only called them "children" to keep them close

GMS only saw them as tools

[muted lantern]

first sinner believes that, sure, but considering gms's desperation to have daughters she clearly saw different, sinners saying that she lied is in the context of "she called us daughters, called us divine" The thing she lied about is the weavers lacking the true divine heritage of being born to a god, the lie was that they were just common beasts that were ascended, not true demigods.

[narrow horizon]

she makes Lace, a being of pure silk, because she believes that a purely silk being wouldn't betray her like the Weavers did

[muted lantern]

gms hid their true origin from them

[dire lynx]

they were fully transformed by silk, its not like they were simply given awareness like PK. their new bodies only exist thanks to the silk woven into their bodies by gms

[narrow horizon]

They're still the same bugs, just given transformed bodies

[muted lantern]

and completely altered and ascended minds, and newfound magical abilities

[dire lynx]

they arent

[muted lantern]

they arent just some random wild animal with larger bodies lol

pharlids are just wild animals

[dire lynx]

last i checked pharlids cant use silk and dont have difficulty breeding

[muted lantern]

also the silk memory post lace implies she saw the weavers as her children. albiet impure ones.

[dire lynx]

impure because of their betrayal, not their origin

this is like someone arguing Adam is dust because God made him from it lmao

(place bets on lacenet shipper)

[ornate pier]

Crazy we have all this discourse for an incredibly mid ship eitherway 💔

But I wouldn't go around branding people as stuff unless it's clear

[ornate pier]

About this, FS does seem to be alone on this. The weavers call eachother sisters all the time

[quick geyser]

Occasional lacenet discourse 💔

[narrow horizon]

wha

oh forgot about this chat mb

nah i'm not a lacenet shipper, i think they're cute together but not romantically

[quick geyser]

Considering that Sherma also refers to other pilgrims as “Sister, brothers”. I think the term sister is a bit more nuanced than that

[narrow horizon]

i just don't think it's accurate to say Lace is related to Hornet, or any of the Weavers for that matter

[ornate pier]

Its very interesting to me

There's a Silk relation but nothing biological

But then lace is entirely not biological

[narrow horizon]

yeah

and our knowledge on Silk and how it works in terms of making things related is fetchy at best

we just don't know enough about anything really 💔

[edgy nebula]

id say the weavers are like gms's adopted children, it isnt far fetched to say it

[ornate pier]

Yeah

FS disowned her

[opal magnet]

Theory: Flea brew and similar alcohol (like greymoor) lasts much longer for normal bugs. Because stronger relation to the status of higher being improves basically all specs including regen and resistance, this is why hornet is effected basically none by the alcohol, and it wears off so fast.

[ornate pier]

This is also how Brewified Grishkin works

It can be pretty damaging to regular bugs

[narrow horizon]

Yeah but they all rebelled against her and fled Pharloom

so i doubt any of them see her as a mother figure now lol

[opal magnet]

Like plasmium!

[ornate pier]

Also the weavers seem to have imprisoned first sinner so there's also that whole ordeal

[edgy nebula]

yeah but theyre still her children because of the silk augments to them id say

[ornate pier]

They were basically reborn

They were pretty much completely different individuals as pharlids

It's very nuanced and interesting

[quick geyser]

I don’t think we should treat silk relation the same as biological relation. Wouldn’t that just mean every haunted bugs in general are related to Weavers and Lace in the same way that they are biologically related?

[opal magnet]

Silks effects are shaped by intent

[edgy nebula]

it's different for weavers cause their biology was elevated by gms

[quick geyser]

Actually, since most of the bugs of Hallownest were elevated by the pale king beacon, are they all related in the sense that they are biologically related?

[opal magnet]

All silk skills use silk but have drastically differing ways the silk manifests
Further its usage as a grappling hook and for healing shows even more usages.

[ornate pier]

It could be argued silk is a more physical thing (Though as soul it kinda isn't) than his beacon

I guess soul is somewhat physical

[opal magnet]

Silk is simply a manifestation of soul, and this format of manifestation is due to the heavy influence of a higher being (GMS) in the land.

Most likely soul could be used for the same effects without manifesting it as silk, but there isn't a reason to, as it still works in full as silk.

There is still distinction as it is still a form, though that more ties into the Soul tyrant vs the Unraveled

[dire lynx]

pale kings beacon elevated bugs intelligence, it doesnt transform them into an entirely new organism and integrate itself into their physiology

[quick geyser]

You know what, that a fair argument

[dry lake]

Do I understand correctly that weavers nature is infulenced by silk thus they are some kind of "demigods".

[stray fog]

They are very strong, but not demigods

They don't have any divine heritage

[dry lake]

So Hornet is the only one able to produce her own silk?

[stray fog]

All weavers can do that

Probably weaver descendants as well

[dry lake]

I tought that its a uniqe abillity of divine beings.

[dire lynx]

correct

[whole holly]

i wonder if shamans will get expanded on in similar way, mystic abilities don't seem to develop naturally and we know that Higher Beings can create and significantly alter existing life, change their environment drastically

Shamans, Vessels, Weavers seem to store large amount of soul without bloating or negative effects(Silk for Weavers) Silk is outlier since it is more compact and we don't see same kind of effects on regular bug, but Groal, and Soul Master both are bloated after consuming shaman spell/soul, unlike Vessel, and i think Hornet and maybe other Weavers should be able to do the same to extent, i think hornet can use Soul Spells if she really wanted to

plus Shaman Crest is adapted for holding more Silk Spells

something is up with Shamans and i don't know what, like they generally help us solve problems, but in Silksong we found out they are somewhat deceitful, Weaver's can be too, both of them help us in their own ways

[inner torrent]

The only results of "Silk bloating" we have seen are the Whiteward enemies

[whole holly]

well yes, i addressed that too

[inner torrent]

I'm curious about how different silk skills are to spells

Because for example, rune rage and pale nails are way too similar to pure vessel spells

[whole holly]

are you comparing silk skills to soul spells or silk spells

[inner torrent]

Uuuh...

I think, soul spells?

[whole holly]

oh you are comparing silk spells to soul spells, skills are needolin and clawline abilities

[whole holly]

well, since Silk is made from Soul, it propably inherits it's proterties and people are saying that Weaver's trained Pure Vessel in Spell casting

[inner torrent]

It would make a lot of sense, also a lot of hollow knight/pale king related places has the same binding seal hornet has in the weavers cave in deepnest

[whole holly]

pure vessel may not be able to create silk but he can probably bind/focus it and utilize it

[inner torrent]

I'm very curious if a vessel would be able to focus a crest inside themselves

[whole holly]

well, all crests bugs we see have soul imprint, hornet uses it to bind crests, vessels would probably be able to focus it

[inner torrent]

That's highly interesting, I'm curious of the effect it would bring, I'm pretty sure it would affect their "Emptiness" as crests contain memories and identity, it could make the vessel develope a personality very skin to the owner of that crest

[heavy gyro]

Binding power seems to exclusively be a weaver ability, its just hornets wyrm heritage also allows her to have multiple crests

[inner torrent]

Yeah, probably a weaver wouldn't be able to hold multiple crests, instead of directly acquiring one, they would probably fuse with it's own crest

That would be interesting for a game idea, like there are only 2/3 crests, and once you collect one it infused in your original crest and you can't get another after that

[whole holly]

i wonder if Weaver like hornet could hold Soul Spells like Groal and Soulmaster do without getting bloated

[heavy gyro]

She probably has higher resistance to the bloating like with lifeblood

[whole holly]

what about Weaver or other Part Weavers, what about Eva honestly

i want Soul Spells unlocked for Hornet, she seems capable enough

[pale narwhal]

i imagine that any soul spells she got would be distorted by silk

[whole holly]

due to her nature, i would say that's possible

i want her spells to be upgraded like knight's are, not with Void or Volt, but something like her own essence

[inner torrent]

Hmm, I don't see how that could be, maybe just an increase, like Silk spear getting a range upgrade, thread storm sucking In and out enemies to keep them in the storm zone, cross stitch increasing hornet's hitbox so it's easier to use, and sharp dart uh, doing two dashes? Although that could be seen as a "Worsened" version for some people.
This could work very well as a "Weaver Crest" with two Silk skill slots

[heavy gyro]

Sharp dart with less delay

[inner torrent]

Yeah, and instant sharp dart could be peak.
Rune rage could be very benefitted, maybe by a reduction in its slow usage?

Or by adding a new big rune around hornet that mimicks pure vessel's pure focus attack

[stray fog]

Making some of the runes follow enemies around

[whole holly]

i think we will just get another spell helper tool and that's fine tbh, something like injector band but for spells

[inner torrent]

<@&283547423706447872>

Mods, we call upon your help to get rid of this offenders of faith

Or something like that

[whole holly]

is it scam again?

[inner torrent]

Yep

[frigid belfry]

all weavers, most presumably weaver descendants, and gms are able to produce and control silk

[inner torrent]

Maybe even lace

Although probably not

[whole holly]

lace only demonstrated of directing silkflies

[inner torrent]

I was saying as she can drop a silk heart, but thats probably more of a "Culmination of herself" than something she lost

[whole holly]

i mean bell beast also dropped a silk heart

[dry lake]

Hornet is not a demigod, she is three-quartersgod!

[pearl thunder]

where did you get 3 quarters from

[whole holly]

maybe by weavers being somewhat divine by ascension, but she also binded eva, hornet is pretty close to being god, at least with powers she attained, she is ever closer to godhood, at least over half

[pearl thunder]

i mean it depends how you define god

[inner torrent]

Let's not use the word god

And instead higher being

[pearl thunder]

by godseeker standards she’s a god

[inner torrent]

Yep

[pearl thunder]

the game uses the word god more than it does higher being

[inner torrent]

Hornet at the end of the game is basically almost a higher being, three silk hearts, multiple silk skills, multiple facets of personality and identity thanks to the crests.
A whole set of abilities due the silk skills

[stray fog]

The weaver queen is probably a higher being

[whole holly]

most likely

[stray fog]

She absorbed and replaced gms

[pearl thunder]

I wouldn’t say she’s a higher being, since honestly her powers are pretty weak outside of combat

[fresh badger]

Do silk hearts even count for anything

[inner torrent]

Yep, I'm curious of what would have been hornet's decision after turning into the weaver queen

[fresh badger]

Like she implies she used to be able to passively regen silk before the rune cage iirc

[pearl thunder]

She’s amazing at combat, sure, but beyond that she can’t do a whole lot

[stray fog]

Iirc those are just hornet regaining her pre existing weaver power of making silk

[inner torrent]

What about her song?

She can call onto the memories of the kingdoms, I think that's quite a powerful ability outside battles

[fresh badger]

Is it tho

[stray fog]

I think her weaver/gms/pk nature would dominate
So, she would control everyone in pharloom like gms did

[inner torrent]

Yep, I'm curious how many silk hearts she used to have.
She clearly had a very different crest as she holder three silk spells

[stray fog]

Still not higher being material

[inner torrent]

But definetly potential

[whole holly]

pure vessel was trained and nurtured into really strong vessel, they are probably quite close to higher being status, hornet at the end of game could be similar

[pearl thunder]

Pure Vessel is pretty far from being a Higher Being

their abilities are basically just combat related

and they're pretty small scale at that

[inner torrent]

He literally contained a higher being inside

[pearl thunder]

they didn't really do a whole lot in that process

[frigid belfry]

weavers are not hb descent

they were uplifted

[whole holly]

we don't actively see abilities of all higher beings, so that's not reliable argument, higher beings can vary

[frigid belfry]

when i genetically modify a rat to give it hands, is that rat then part human?

no

[whole holly]

i am aware and that doesn't change point at all, i specified ascension

[pearl thunder]

rats already have hands

[stray fog]

There are a lot of powerful beings in hk, but higher beings are separate

[frigid belfry]

more dextrous appendages in this context

[frigid belfry]

yeah, but arent divine

entire point of fs's speech

[whole holly]

if it has human hands by human genes yes they are part human, weaver physiology changed to resemble gms abilities

[stray fog]

Weavers are strong but not divine

[frigid belfry]

they changed to produce silk and gain sentience, one could argue for silk, but fs implies heavily they arent of hb lineage

[stray fog]

The first sinner explicitly says they aren't divine

[pearl thunder]

how are you even defining "divine"

[whole holly]

Divine is pretty subjective anyways, they do have higher being - adjacent features given by higher being, they are not her children

[stray fog]

Higher being

[pearl thunder]

then they aren't, in any way shape or form

[inner torrent]

Higher beings aren't a species, they are a state

[stray fog]

Or descendants

[whole holly]

ascension makes them equivalent in my opinion, partially holding powers of higher being

[stray fog]

They aren't those either

[pearl thunder]

so are moths divine? or mosskin?

[inner torrent]

The state of "Higher being" isn't even a DNA thing, as for example the vessels themselves aren't higher being despite having pure higher being dna

[stray fog]

Im on your side

[pearl thunder]

they're both direct descendants of a higher being

[frigid belfry]

then the moth tribe is divine then

[inner torrent]

I think moths are pretty divine, Mosskins not, but isma looks to be somewhat divine

[whole holly]

ascension made them equivalent of descendants, given power they have given by GMS

[stray fog]

They aren't descendants
Like the Weavers, they were created by that higher being. They aren't their biological children though

[inner torrent]

Moths have great powers over the dream realm, and have longevity, that strikes me as divine

[stray fog]

Maybe this conversation is way too subjective

[whole holly]

you guys defined Divine as higher being , which hurts my point , that doesn't explicitly define Weavers as higher beings

[inner torrent]

Weavers aren't higher beings

Altough, they aren't normal bugs either

They are more in an in-between, more close to bugs imo

[whole holly]

that was part of my point actually

[inner torrent]

Hornet would be more in the perfect middle, and at the end of the game she would be closer to higher beings

[pearl thunder]

being a higher being is a boolean property, so them being a bit more notable than normal bugs doesn't mean much of anything

[inner torrent]

Idk, for example

Nyleth can do stuff higher beings can

Although in less scale

[stray fog]

We barely know enough about nyleth

To decide if she's a higher being

[pearl thunder]

PK walks around, random moss crawler #324823974 can also walk around, they must be a higher being!

[stray fog]

(she isn't imo)

[whole holly]

exactly what i mean, weaver heritage contributes to her power as well as wyrm heritage, when she gains abilities or binds crests and eva as well as ascends it increases her proximity to higher being, without being in one

[inner torrent]

Created Shellwood from nothing, just as Unn created the green in hallownest.
Although it's much less scale as nyleth only created Shellwood.
Unn created 4 complete biomes

[pearl thunder]

creating stuff out of dreams isn't really all that notable, it happens fairly often with charms in HK, scale is an extremely important factor

[whole holly]

i don't think it is binary as that, weavers are in proximity power wise to GMS(relative to regular bug) but not higher beings

[pearl thunder]

the latter is non sequitur to the former

[inner torrent]

Yep, scale is very important, that's why they are called "Higher" they create massive stuff

They work on big scales

[pearl thunder]

"creating massive stuff" isn't an inherent feature of a higher being

[stray fog]

Like the shade lord

[pearl thunder]

Any power that places them well beyond all other bugs, is indicative of a higher being

[whole holly]

scale contributes to my point that i think it is spectrum of divinity and one end of spectrum is Higher Being status, which arguably can be attained by somehow absorbing powers of higher being or bugs in proximity to it

[inner torrent]

Grimm feeds on a whole kingdom fall
Unn gave life to a third part of hallownest
Shade lord can cover hallownest under their darkness, and so can radiance under her light.
The pale knight gleam can give all hallownest focus so they ascend to intelligence.
The white lady can extend her roots through long realms, and probably, become massive big.

[pearl thunder]

what even is the point of discussion here? yeah weavers are more powerful than normal bugs, but aren't higher beings, applying an arbitrary term like "divine" to them is pointless and meaningless

[stray fog]

Yeah we're just arguing about definitions now

[inner torrent]

I just think weavers are in an in between point

[pearl thunder]

Which makes them not a higher being in any way shape or form

again, you can't sorta exist above all other bugs, it's an inherently boolean property

[inner torrent]

Yeah but no one really said they are higher beings

[whole holly]

where exactly is line, like i said it is spectrum of divinity and reaching height of spectrum gives someone higher being status which game implies can be attained

[inner torrent]

Just that their closeness can support to hornet in her assencion to higherness

[pearl thunder]

it's said in Hk somewhere, i can go pull the exact quote if you want, just gimme a minute

[stray fog]

So we're all agreeing? But also disagreeing? 😭

[whole holly]

if it is where is line?

[pearl thunder]

lemme go get the citation, one sec

[frosty gate]

What's the topic?

[inner torrent]

Kinda

[stray fog]

Its not good rn

[inner torrent]

We aren't sure I think, lol

[frosty gate]

I see a colored name today, that's a weird sight

[whole holly]

game mentions both higher being and divine in proximity to each other, it implies that divinity is spectrum with higher being status is most divine in power scale

[stray fog]

The original discussion was about whether prime hornet is a higher being, but now the discussion is very convoluted

[frosty gate]

It's that bad?

[whole holly]

yeah but our points are mischaracterized as suggesting weavers are higher being when we never claimed that

[stray fog]

"higher nature is a spectrum" vs "higher nature is a boolean"

[inner torrent]

I go for higher nature is a spectrum

[whole holly]

i believe Higher Being isn't binary rather a place on spectrum since it can be attained

[stray fog]

Im on the boolean side

[whole holly]

game seems to heavily suggest that

[inner torrent]

If higherness is binary, how comes non higher beings can destroy higher beings?

[unique canopy]

"Higher being is string theory"

[pearl thunder]

why does this matter?

[inner torrent]

The string higher being theory

[inner torrent]

It comes to the whole premise of "Being Above everything else"

[pearl thunder]

being a higher being has nothing to do with inherent resilience

[stray fog]

A rabid dog can bite a human and kill them

Are dogs higher than humans

[inner torrent]

Higher beings can weaken, would that mean they have lost the higher status?

[stray fog]

A brain eating amoeba might have been a better analogy

[inner torrent]

Maybe?

[whole holly]

step by step mind you

[whole holly]

bad analogy, in that specific case dog is stronger than human but i don't see how term higher is applicable

[stray fog]

The point is that defeating a higher being doesn't mean that you are higher than them

[whole holly]

that is not point we are arguing against, nor does it invalidate any of our arguments

[stray fog]

Im replying to this

[inner torrent]

I'm moreso talking about how complex can be the rank of what makes a higher being higher

For example, pale king although had influence over a large area, didn't have himself big power attributed, at least not that we have seen

[whole holly]

game implies divinity is relative, and higher status can be reached by attaining skills and divine power, Weaver Queen Hornet and Cursed Ending parasite confirm that, so does knight with Voidheart/Void given Focus Ending, and it was not binary occurrence, it was gradual(which implies spectrum) ascension to higher being status

[stray fog]

I feel like there is no clear answer in this debate

Ill just agree to disagree

[stray fog]

Hornet's ascension wasn't gradual

The knight's was

[pearl thunder]

the knight notably has a single moment that makes them a higher being

the acquisition of the void heart

[stray fog]

The knight ascended over the course of a pantheon, but hornet ascended in a few seconds by binding gms

[whole holly]

we can agree that GMS was largest step she had to overcome, but she was in proximity to her power wise when she binded crests, eva weavers

[whole holly]

knight with void heart isn't higher being unless he unlocks various forms his shade has

[pearl thunder]

the knight at any given moment could express its will over the void, the only reason they don't is gameplay

[inner torrent]

It's a bit gradual, but way less than the knight's

[whole holly]

her binding eva implies this most, since eva is divinity mimicked

[stray fog]

The question is, does becoming stronger mean becoming slightly higher?

[whole holly]

game doesn't confirm that so i am going to take this at grain of salt, since Godseeker Ascension Process is what game confirms

[stray fog]

I don't think so personally

Shes just getting stronger

[pearl thunder]

if you're only relying on explicit information, you're going to be missing most of the game's lore

[whole holly]

becoming stronger isn't related to becoming more divine

[blissful harbor]

i mean it does, it expresses its will over siblings it comes across

realistically, it could call void and tear apart any boss
but thst doesn’t make for a fun game nor a good story

[whole holly]

i am only relying on explicit information in this argument, because we have to reach conclusion

[stray fog]

But you said that hornet binding weavers, crests, etc. Was her journey to gradually become higher

[pearl thunder]

those two statements are non sequitur

[inner torrent]

I mean, isn't higher and stronger synonym?

[whole holly]

Ascension plays important role clearly, since he only expresses Void given Focus form when winning against Absolute Radiance

[blissful harbor]

well yes, void given focus is different from TK after void heart

[whole holly]

yes, but becoming stronger would be obtaining ancient masks

[blissful harbor]

it’s like saying Rad isn’t a HB because Absolute Rad exists

it’s just them being enhanced

[stray fog]

Higher beings are strong, but do the increases in hornet's strength over the game mean that she is becoming higher?

[whole holly]

which confirms that ascension plays role in knight's godhood

[whole holly]

how so

[pearl thunder]

absolute rad is the ascended version of the radiance

[blissful harbor]

it doesn’t, it’s enhancing whats already there
that’s how godseekers focus works

[whole holly]

we can come to reliable conclusion if we use as much explicit information as possible

[blissful harbor]

the explicit information in question:

[stray fog]

Tc doesn't do explicit information

[pearl thunder]

voidheart explicitly grants TK control over the void,

An emptiness that was hidden within, now unconstrained. Unifies the void under the bearer's will.

[inner torrent]

I would say it depends

Sometimes, it'd not just pure strength, but It comes with certain, increase in her whole being, like silk hearts

[whole holly]

enhancing what's already there objectively does contribute to higher being status

[blissful harbor]

not if they are already a Hb

[inner torrent]

Just for example, just getting a needle upgrade or even just getting spells and silk skills is probably not necessary making her higher, but just stronger

[pearl thunder]

TK is already a higher being, you can't become a more higher being

[inner torrent]

Buth sylphsong gives me more highering than strongering

[blissful harbor]

Tk is a HB already, godseeker doesn’t turn them into one with her focus

[frosty gate]

Wtf is a Boolean

[stray fog]

Dichotomy

Only 2 outcomes

[inner torrent]

When is TK a higher being tho?

[stray fog]

Yes or no

[blissful harbor]

when they get voidheart

[inner torrent]

Hmmm

[frosty gate]

No

[pearl thunder]

true/false

[blissful harbor]

when they gain (almost) complete control of the void

[blissful harbor]

wym no

[pearl thunder]

bro literally said "nuh uh"

[frosty gate]

Or well, let me sit on it first

[blissful harbor]

we are directly told after voidheart TK has surpassed Pk, a HB
only definition of HB is “those that exist above all others”

there is no reading where TK isnt a HB

[pearl thunder]

oh btw where is that stated? i can't for the life of me find it

[blissful harbor]

bardoon

[frosty gate]

Yeah yeah I agree with that, I was to hasty to say no

[stray fog]

Bardoon the goat

[blissful harbor]

Ohhhmmmm... Tiny thing... It evolves beyond that Wyrm. Such union in a single being. A strength before unseen. Would it too challenge nature? It could perhaps defeat it.

[frosty gate]

I think Higher Nature is either a yes or no

[pearl thunder]

I meant the bit about the definition of a HB

[stray fog]

So only a few of hornet's actions make her higher
This is why im on the boolean side

[blissful harbor]

ohhh, it’s TC old ama

[random harbor]

Developer comment: Higher Beings

According to William Pellen, Higher Beings are creatures in the world of Hollow Knight that exist above all others.

Source

@irohlikestea used /dev-comments source: Reddit name: Higher Beings

[pearl thunder]

there we are

[safe dock]

guys, the fact that the first sinner's prison has the citadels logo mean that she was imprisoned after the citadel was created?

[frosty gate]

By Weavers, yes

[whole holly]

if you can't become more higher being, knight evolving beyond higher being doesn't make sense, this is bad faith argument and mutually exclusive points

[loud moon]

I imagine that Hornet calling Bell Beast "Heeya" is some sort of nick name for it.

[frosty gate]

The VGFocus is above Higher Beings

[stray fog]

You can become higher, just not through a spectrum
Instead, through one or 2 actions

[pearl thunder]

being a higher being is just a title, denoting that you have power above all others, doesn't mean you have achieved all the power that can be had

[safe dock]

so they found out GMS was lying because of FS and then imprisoned her after the revolution? poor FS

[frosty gate]

Not really, it's kinda complicated

It seems she got imprisoned because Weavers built the Citadel under the impression that they were divine

And if FS says they aren't, the facade falls down

[blissful harbor]

not really
TK is able to do more shit than Pk could with its powers in the situation there are in
it can actually kill Rad, it’s evolved beyond PK and is functionally stronger than him
being stronger than another god doesn’t make you “more of a god”

[whole holly]

knight's higher being capabilities is still expressed gradually even after he acquired voidheart which is reason ascension still plays part in Godhood, since Void Entity is God of Gods but knight isn't referred to that way

[safe dock]

hmm i thought Citadel was built with the purpose to put GMS to sleep since the beginning

[pearl thunder]

what does "higher being capabilities" even mean, there are no abilities inherent to being a higher being

[whole holly]

scale of their innate abilities, which also is expressed in hornet gradually

[frosty gate]

That doesn't change. They did that, but they also said they were divine

[pearl thunder]

what even is your argument? since power exists on spectrum, a title denoting power has to exist on a spectrum?

[frosty gate]

To the bugs of the Citadel

[whole holly]

they that invalidates your point saying Knight is HB after acquiring Voidheart, since knight evolved beyond HB when they acquired Voidheart, but they aren't more of god, how so?

[inner torrent]

I would like to say it's the same thing as hornet defeating gms

[whole holly]

maybe read my previous arguments

[blissful harbor]

they’re stronger than PK
being stronger doesn’t mean you’re more of a god

[inner torrent]

But actually, I just realized, hornet defeating gms is actually what makes her a higher being, because she doesn't only defeats her through brute strength, she needs to bind her, which indeed makes hornet a higher being

[safe dock]

yeah, but it wouldnt make sense for them to go against GMS if they didn't know the truth i think
i thought the order was like FS tells her sisters GMS lied -> they are mad and decide to put her into slumber -> creation of the citadel

[blissful harbor]

silk isn’t less of a HB because she got fucked by void

nor is Rad

[pearl thunder]

they aren't beyond a HB, they're beyond a single example of a HB

[inner torrent]

Void is basically higher

[frosty gate]

It would make sense if you just assume Weavers are brats and they got tired of serving their Slave owner mother

[inner torrent]

But without being

[whole holly]

so you are saying that Knight only became physically stronger than HB, then how can you assert that Voidheart makes him HB if it makes him only phisically stronger than HB

[frosty gate]

If you don't go by this assumption then it doesn't make sense that FS is imprisoned by Citadel under the sin of "Apostasy"

[pearl thunder]

voidheart doesn’t make TK more powerful than HB, it makes it more powerful than a higher being

[safe dock]

that's a good reason too lol
didn't think about this other possibility

[inner torrent]

I'm not sure if voidheart actually makes the knight a higher being

[pearl thunder]

then you don’t understand what exactly the voidheart does

[lethal burrow]

tis the truth

[blissful harbor]

it’s not just physical strength, it gains complete control of the void
a substance capable of consuming gods
it becomes a HB because by definition, it makes them more powerful than a specific one
which going by the definition of them, makes them a HB themselves

[inner torrent]

Ok it gives the knight "Control over the void"

[safe dock]

yeah that's what i was so confused about

[frosty gate]

Yeah, it's fair, mainly becausse certain possibilities are just not clear or stated

[inner torrent]

But is control over the void actually enough to make someone a higher being?

[pearl thunder]

With absolute certainty, yes

[frosty gate]

It's enough to kill one

[whole holly]

guys even if we discard my existing examples of hornet and knight's ascension, Higher Beings inherently vary by power and some bugs inherently exist closer to HBs by having adjacent power

[inner torrent]

Specially, when still has individuality, as seen in the no more dreams ending

[lethal burrow]

"The Weavers built the citadel under the impression they were divine" means they built it thinking they were divine, since in the sentence they are the ones under the impression.

[pearl thunder]

yes, not every HB has the same power level, what is your point?

[frosty gate]

I mean, they did think they were divine when they weren't

[frosty gate]

(And we are not even sure about that)

[lethal burrow]

How do you even quantify a power level?

[pearl thunder]

we are absolutely certain that not every HB has the same amount of power

[sinful nimbus]

See: GMS

[lethal burrow]

The radiance does seem stronger than unn

[whole holly]

then how can you assert that if they are capable of consuming gods at will and destroying them they are equal, if they are inherently stronger, you are doing mind tricks to convince yourself that Higher Being isn't spectrum when examples you guys use places HBs on different parts of spectrum of divine power scale

[whole holly]

it contributes to scale/spectrum theory, if you read past points you wouldn't be asking that question

[heavy gyro]

If every HB has different amounts of power, then being a higher being is not a boolean, because it implies that some higher beings exist above other higher beings

[frosty gate]

I don't know, that's why I don't think its fair to quantify this

[inner torrent]

I don't know, specially as again, the shades are still they self, they aren't really under the knight's power

[frosty gate]

We barely see Higher Beings do anything

[lethal burrow]

calm down

[inner torrent]

Until the knight becomes the shade lord

[whole holly]

?

[lethal burrow]

Here's the real question is the life blood higher god stronger than the gods of thunder and rain?

[blissful harbor]

???
ive been saying TK with voidheart is stronger than PK
void is stronger than any HB pretty much, that’s it’s whole thing
and wym mind tricks lmao

power is a spectrum yes, but you either are a Hb or you aren’t

there isn’t a spectrum for that

[inner torrent]

We know nothing about the gods of rain and thunder so...

[lethal burrow]

We know some things

[blissful harbor]

we know they were losers who died

[whole holly]

i am not arguing against that, HB status can be line over spectrum, once you get past that power you are higher being, which is entire point you guys are arguing against

[inner torrent]

Yep

[pearl thunder]

they aren't equal, but they all bear the same title

[pearl thunder]

that is quite literally the exact thing me and senris are arguing

[frosty gate]

Ok, can i get a clarification on who is arguing about HB status being Yes or No and who says HB is a spectrum?
Just you know who to disagree with

[pearl thunder]

i'm pretty sure at this point we're agreed, Nika just did a poor job of properly describing their stance

[frosty gate]

And the agreement is?

[pearl thunder]

Power exists on a spectrum, with HB status being a "line" on that spectrum that you achieve

[stray fog]

So a boolean

[heavy gyro]

HB is not a spectrum, but when people say half higher being, they just imply that the character has half the power of a higher being at the minimum threshold

[whole holly]

it isn't boolean means there are no in-between space there is not proximity to higher status, which also implies it can't be achieved gradually by ascension, which is what you originally meant

[pearl thunder]

Correct, the power is a spectrum, but the status of being a HB is a boolean

[stray fog]

I thought it was about their heritage

50% weaver 50% wyrm

[pearl thunder]

it's boolean in the same way a threshold is boolean, you can be close to the set point of a threshold gate, but that doesn't make the output of the threshold gate non-boolean

[frosty gate]

That technically would make hornet 75% higher being

[stray fog]

And 100% void

[frosty gate]

112% Void

[whole holly]

do we even know where line is though, Godseeker isn't sure until we achieve forms and Bardoon says we evolved beyond wyrm, he may just be talking about nature/heritage, it isn't direct confirmation

line at least to characters of game is subjective

[frosty gate]

Wait, going back to TK being a Higher Being, do you think that status was temporal? I know it sounds weird

[whole holly]

i think it was gradual ascension to status, if you mean temporary no, i don't think that

[stray fog]

Temporal as in physical?

I don't understand

[lethal burrow]

I think they mean temporary

[stray fog]

Even then, why would it be temporary?

[whole holly]

neither do i

[frosty gate]

I mean that TK had the status for just a while

[stray fog]

They become the lord of Shades so its gotta be permanent

[whole holly]

we see Void given Focus/Form in SotV, wdym

[frosty gate]

There's something different between VGForm and VGFocus and I can't quite place what is is.
Why is it that VGForm, the form TK uses to kill Radiance with THK, just receeds back into the void after killing her
Meanwhile VGFocus, used to killing Absolute Radiance, stays arounds

[blissful harbor]

i mean, focus likely goes back to the abyss too
different scenarios

TK in dnm exited the dream immediately and went to the abyss
VGFocus, they had to exit godhome first
no reason they wouldn’t go back to the abyss though

[frosty gate]

Focus literally bursts out of Godseeker and we don't know what happened after that

[whole holly]

yeah, in both cases likely not temporary

[frosty gate]

Form just seeps back into the cracks of the arena

[lethal burrow]

well, it doesn't seem to stick around going by God seeker mode

-# perhaps they do a transformation sequence and they can go back-and-forth

[frosty gate]

I mean, the way it gets out is way more violently

[fresh badger]

Guess why theres no corpse of THK in DNM....

[blissful harbor]

when youre a giant goo monster like 100x the size of the doorway youre tryna squeeze out

[frosty gate]

The Masks should at least be there

[fresh badger]

Its not!

[blissful harbor]

i’m ngl ion think there is a non violent way to exit

[frosty gate]

Which is weird!!!!

[fresh badger]

We see a zoomout of the entire temple and its just hornet and tks shell left

[fresh badger]

Its consistent with etv!

Hell in dnm dont we like see void surrounding the whole black egg before crushing it

I need to rewatch the cutscene

[frosty gate]

I need to rewatch, I cant remember

[blissful harbor]

it surrounds the egg then explodes

[lethal burrow]

Wait, are we only now discovering that the Hollow night could've survived in every ending?

[fresh badger]

https://youtu.be/u-9AhZJrk_g?si=GfmxMFCszmMs31K1

[frosty gate]

Oh yeah it does

[fresh badger]

Bro wait this shit funny as hell 😭 when Hornets waking up from passing out she does the worm

[blissful harbor]

TK protecting hornet and its own shell but letting THK get blown up

they certainly have a favorite sibling

[blissful harbor]

didn’t even invite them to SotV

[frosty gate]

I still find the difference between VGFocus and VGForm odd

I need real answers from TC I'm tired of speculating

[heavy gyro]

VGfocus is stronger

[frosty gate]

That's for sure

I wish EtV wasn't that big of a cliffhanger

[heavy gyro]

Etv is weird because the implication is that vgfocus is evil

But its clearly not

[frosty gate]

I would disagree but I don't remember my first impression about it

And it would be a lie if I told you i didn't get that impression, when now I know it isn't

[tawdry viper]

Screaming crying throwing up because ||the Hollow Knight and Lace are two sides of the same coin||

[fresh badger]

EtV is just bait after bait

Portraying VGFocus evil
Portraying Hornet as throwing hands with a cripple amputee

[tawdry viper]

||
One born in darkness, doomed to hold the light. The other born in light, doomed to hold the darkness. Both born to gods who took their agency. One doomed because he loved his father, the other doomed because she hated her mother. One whose father sacrificed him for their kingdom, the other whose mother sacrificed their kingdom for her. And then, at the end, one finally got to die and the other finally got to live||

[frosty gate]

You can talk with out spoiler tags

[tawdry viper]

https://tenor.com/view/freedom-gif-14887144685173519659

[fresh badger]

Tfym lace is doomed to hold the void in a way comparable to thk and rad??

[tawdry viper]

Sure it's not a direct comparison but I really loved the callback

[unique canopy]

||And then, at the end, one finally got to die||
||And then ETV/DF happens||

[unique tangle]

Lace is doomed to hold the void in way comparable to how a labubu dropped in muddy water holds muddy water

[tawdry viper]

Lmao that's so real

Yeah I think what I'm glad about and what I should've phrased better is how hornet saved her from that fate

[peak mauve]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/586931790208434203/1444952928786976789/fleapetting.webp

[sterile jacinth]

I’d like to think hollow is still alive in some of the endings

[bronze patio]

Guys maybe silksong was the friends we made along hollow knight

[craggy smelt]

the ETV one

[sterile jacinth]

Oh yea

[craggy smelt]

welp

[whole holly]

i wish we had more explanation for First Light/Everbloom/Delicate Flower, how is it that strong or repel void?

[tawdry flare]

It’s directly opposed in nature to void or something (it’s antivoid)

[craggy smelt]

that's a big question, certainly

presumably we have your basic Light/Dark fundamental force cosmology going on

[whole holly]

yeah, i think lands serene might have force that repels void