sk-lore

[median monolith]

Snail shamans went into hiding as using soul for combat was shunned

[sterile jacinth]

rad does not have a physical form

[mild adder]

anything sentient that is not made of the void melts in front of the radiance

Literally nothing but the void could fight it

That’s the whole point of the first game

[lone folio]

Well I mean seeing how gms caused a big ass earthquake issue then radiance could do similar so maybe it could of caused more issues

[mild adder]

I feel like you are misunderstanding the context of the two situations

GMS is a physical being in physical reality

[median monolith]

Radiance once again doesn't have a physical form

[mild adder]

Radiance is a diety sitting in a different layer of reality melting anything with a consciousness by overriding it with its own

[lone folio]

Ok but like the knight can bring his nail into the dream world. Like cant PK bring like idk a big ass void bomb to her?

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think it works like that

[mild adder]

No he doesn’t bring anything into the dreamworld it’s his projection

It’s his dream self, when you loose a dream boss you wake up next to it

Same thing

[sterile jacinth]

I also think pk would get absolutely obliterated if he went into a dream with rad

[mild adder]

Yep

[lone folio]

Wouldnt he then also just wake upp?

[mild adder]

He could resist when outside but would melt if he confronted it, that’s why he didn’t

[sterile jacinth]

He might lose his will to hers if he does

[mild adder]

Radiance targets your consciousness, it doesn’t matter if you are in a dream or not

[sterile jacinth]

I’m sure he has a strong mind but if he fought her in a dream I think it would be significantly weakened

[mild adder]

If he was in the same dream as radiance he would just give it ready access to his brain

[lone folio]

Ok then project a kingsmould through and strap a big void bomb to that

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think you can bring void into a dream unless you are made of it

[mild adder]

Could kingsmould survive radiances attacks?

No

It couldn’t

And they can’t do complex tasks anyway

[lone folio]

No but it has the bomb

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think you can bring another being into a dream either

[lone folio]

Wdym?

[sterile jacinth]

You suggested pk bring a kingsmould into a dream to fight rad when I don’t think bringing them there would be possible

[lone folio]

Knight brings 4 Weaverlings and a child with him

[sterile jacinth]

They also don’t possess enough thought to go into the dream themselves

They’re projecting the charms alongside their nail

They’re not real

[mild adder]

Literally just lucid dreaming fight my dude

[median monolith]

This HAS to be ragebait

[mild adder]

Yea

[lone folio]

No I promise you it's not

[sterile jacinth]

The thing pk did was pretty much his only option. That’s what makes it tragic. I don’t think he was stupid I just think he was desperate

[mild adder]

The whole point of the first game is that vessels were the only way to get rid of the radiance

[sterile jacinth]

Yea

[mild adder]

Something that holds the void within itself but is also bug enough to be able to actually be used and function as a memetic hazard container for an angry god

[sterile jacinth]

If there was another option I’m sure pk would have taken it

It’s implied his guilt for doing that is what killed him

He’s not stupid. He just didn’t have any other option

[mild adder]

You also have to remember, while PK used dream magic, the whole “put radiance in a vessel and have another vessel with an awakened dreamnail artifact of the moth tribe, with its will focusing the void actually drag down the radiance into the abyss” wasn’t really on the docket

Because how do you actually do that

[lone folio]

Gentlemen I know my vessel lore and PK depression lore pretty well. I just didn't quite understand why sending a kingsmould with a big void bomb wouldn't work

[mild adder]

Why would a bomb kill the radiance

It literally has to be dragged down to the abyss to be contained

[sterile jacinth]

I just think you can’t physically bring something into a dream. Void is physical. The knight is made of void

[mild adder]

To be fair there are kingsmould in the palace

[sterile jacinth]

Especially after getting the void heart charm

That’s true but they don’t really exist

[lone folio]

You release void on radiance and it starts slashing away at her. The knight does it though it could always be that he's just better

[sterile jacinth]

The knight is special

[lone folio]

Neither does the knights nail in dream realm

[sterile jacinth]

It’s a projection

[mild adder]

Ok, do you remeber the radiance boss fight ?
What happens in the first half?

Radiance gets knocked down and then breaks off and runs away up and above

[lone folio]

Void grabs her?

[mild adder]

Yes and it runs away

[lone folio]

Uhu uhu

[mild adder]

Congratulations, the portal bomb doesn’t work on the radiance

[lone folio]

Damn

I finnaly got an answer that is impossible to defeat

Big void bomb doesn't work because the radiance is a slippery moth

[sterile jacinth]

The knight with void heart is the void bomb

[lone folio]

Now a big void rail gun on the other hand....

(I'm joking)

[lone folio]

Basically yeah

[mild adder]

I think the most interesting part of the whole thing is that void transcends planes of reality

Or can invade them

[lone folio]

Yeah it's wierd how it can just travel through realms with no issue

[mild adder]

Not no issue

It has to try

Like really try

But it can and it needs to have a connection in said realm

[lone folio]

Well it needs a focus thing

[mild adder]

Either ghost

Or connecting to that kingsmould corpse

[median monolith]

Ok this may be a stupid question, sorry in advance, if the everbloom (which is also the delicate flower) is repellant against void, why could the knight hold it during flower quest?

[mild adder]

Because he is a vessel

The void is stored within

[lone folio]

His shell is in the way of the void

[mild adder]

Ghost is basically a bug with sloshy void insides

Neither bug nor void

[median monolith]

Makes sense now tysm

[lone folio]

The black part of the knight isn't his shade it's his bug body

[mild adder]

Some weird bio golem full of pilk, I mean void

[lone folio]

Well kind of

Like 70% accurate

[mild adder]

Well hornet has also black body and she most definitely isn’t void entity

[lone folio]

Maybe

Thk really messes that upp

[mild adder]

And with PV we can see it’s an exoskeleton

[median monolith]

"Hornet is void"

[lone folio]

Like he can just shoot out void tentacles when he feels like it

[mild adder]

It’s just a spell

[lone folio]

That's like him breaking open his body to send an attack

[mild adder]

Like ss dd or vengeful spirit

[lone folio]

Ah

I thought he just uses his own shade for that

[mild adder]

Look at the animation of the upward facing spell

Ghost melts into a void ball and explodes

When it’s upgraded to the void variant

It’s just spells

[lone folio]

I see I see

[mild adder]

I do like that retroactively we find out that PV was taught by the weavers through the rune spell he casts

It’s a very neat callback

[muted lantern]

Oh yeah they certainly have rune magic, though, that just as easily could have been taught by pk, unless its stated only weavers can make runes. Which I'm not sure of.

Tho pk definitely collaborated with weavers and their rune magic, I'm not sure if he could do it himself, maybe he learned it from them/knew already due to his mastery over soul?

[sinful nimbus]

PV's spell is similar but different, it seems more like 2 different soul users came upon a similar technique

[sinful nimbus]

PK metamorphosized and branded himself with a rune egg thingamabob so I would assume that's just something he could always do

[trail wagon]

wjat are the lore implications of my hitless lace 2 run

[sinful nimbus]

Practice for lore accurate hitless Lost Lace since you have the delicate flower

[narrow horizon]

💀

[plain gazelle]

i was actually thinking about this the other day, I wonder if it's another "pure vessel was never fully hollow" moment - they start using rune rage when you get them low HP because you're pissing them off

[fervent sigil]

crests...

defender's CREST

hornet can bind ogrim

[scenic shuttle]

Only if he was dead

[halcyon merlin]

lace is holding back for his girlfriend

[fervent sigil]

no shot the interval between the godhome ending and silksong intro ogrim died

[halcyon merlin]

his

🧠

my nrain

[scenic shuttle]

He survived the infection and everything else I think he will be fine

[fervent sigil]

list of possibilities:

• THK/PV Killed ogrim (low chance)
• White lady killed ogrim (low chance)
• Ogrim oofed himself

[scenic shuttle]

White lady would never kill ogrim.

Never

[trail wagon]

his

[fervent sigil]

yes

close to 0%

[halcyon merlin]

yeah bro lace is male and a child

[fervent sigil]

basically 0%

[scenic shuttle]

He is one of the only ones left form hallownest

[craggy smelt]

his final thought was wondering if something like the legacy of the Great Knights could be passed on, and he leaves behind a statue of the Knight
I sort've wonder if he vanished like Ze'mer? Gone off to live in memory forever...?

[trail wagon]

idk if it's like a bait

[halcyon merlin]

i misstyped

and didn't bother to change his to her

[trail wagon]

did you misstype "male" too? :0

[fervent sigil]

technically lace and hornet are the same

they both have the same voice

[halcyon merlin]

that was just continuing as a joke

[halcyon merlin]

real??

[fervent sigil]

no

i thought makoto koji also voiced lace

[halcyon merlin]

😔

[trail wagon]

Shakra and Nuu are the same person too

[flint juniper]

Vão trabalhar

[visual glacier]

What’s the discussion

[halcyon merlin]

nothing

[fervent sigil]

Possible stuff that will be added in the next DLC:

• Bellhart's secret door next to widow elevator
• The sealed door in bilewater (possibly Pharloom Bay)
• Coral Gorge (dream/memory)
• Steel City (low chance, possibly a dream/memory)
• Grimm troupe (very low chance since we already got a grimm troupe DLC)

[dire lynx]

LION VILLAGE!!!!!

[fervent sigil]

FUCK YEAHHHH

[scenic shuttle]

A godhome of some kind

Obviously

[fervent sigil]

coral gorge is the highest chance alongside the bellhart door

[fervent sigil]

the only reason this should exist, the game needs replayable bosses like HK

[scenic shuttle]

Exactly

[flint juniper]

Vão trabalhar por favor

[fervent sigil]

can you speak english please

[halcyon merlin]

"go to work please" is what he's saying

[fervent sigil]

Este servidor e so em ingles

[halcyon merlin]

ah

grr

what's the sense!! just tell him to speak english in portuguese

[fervent sigil]

i did

[halcyon merlin]

😡

fair enough

[river osprey]

bro is it just me orr-

I have a theory...

A GAME THEORY

[halcyon merlin]

i think its very possible

[viscid ridge]

Its not just you, this theory has been around since the first trailer dropped

[river osprey]

oh

Shakra uses pancakes

shakra's master uses balls

Elder hu has balls and jumbo pancakes

[viscid ridge]

One thing i wonder about shakras tribe tho, is if they are all the same type of bug? Cause shakra and her master seem to be the same bug, but elder hu looks a lit different. So maybe the tribe is not specific to one type of bug if the theory is correct

[river osprey]

Shakra is A hornet/wasp

[viscid ridge]

Thats not confirmed, she looks more like a dragonfly

[river osprey]

hmm

[viscid ridge]

But the specifics of what type of bug she is isn't really all that important

[fervent sigil]

POSHANKA, EDGES SHARP AND SENSES KEEN!

[river osprey]

poshanka

[fervent sigil]

theyre also related to the befly (in face)

thats shakra tho

[viscid ridge]

Does elder hu have any nonsense words like shakra does in her dialogue?

[fervent sigil]

half poshanka half befly

[river osprey]

he grunts when he throws his pancakes

also half the game has nonsense words

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but like in the dialogue box 🤣

[fervent sigil]

i dont see any

[river osprey]

oh

[viscid ridge]

Cause shakra and zemir is very unique in the regard where they use their nonsense words directly in their dialogue

[fervent sigil]

Journal:

Lingering dream of a fallen warrior. Travelled the world tending to those affected by the plague.

Never forget what once was lost, yet do not let it tie you down.

[river osprey]

key word "travelled the world"

[fervent sigil]

Hall of gods:

Dreamborn god of travellers and sages
"I lie dreaming in the wastes"

[river osprey]

he ain't from hallownest

guys

[viscid ridge]

But i think in regards to the journal entry, the world refers to only hallownest, but he probably traveled from another kingdom

[fervent sigil]

does shakra mention anything about "sages"

[viscid ridge]

Not really as far as i can remember

[river osprey]

if silksong did this one thing it would be 10/10

letting you hug the huge flea

[sinful nimbus]

Its Elder Hu not Elder Hu, Wielding Rings smh

[river osprey]

gonna be real guys

this is unrelated but

is it weird that it took me more tries to beat flea dodge minigame than skarrsinger karmelita

flea dodge is harder than lost lace prove me wrong

[fervent sigil]

try using reaper and pogoing/downslash-bouncing the fleas

[viscid ridge]

Thats shakras title, but he probably had a different title when he was alive, or maybe simply elder was his title

[sinful nimbus]

It seems they name stuff like "x wielding y"

[fervent sigil]

His name is just Hu then

[viscid ridge]

And to be fair Elder Hus rings look very different to shakra

They kinda remind me of rosary strings

Like not the currency in ss, like an actual prayer bead string

[sinful nimbus]

???why did we ever come up with the shakra tribe elder hu theory

Seth Shakra Tribe can stay though

[river osprey]

where's the sk meme

channel

[sinful nimbus]

preeeeetty sure hk-meme allows silksong stuff

[viscid ridge]

Similar apearance ig

[river osprey]

Oh

mk

[fervent sigil]

shakra is a traveller

[unique canopy]

Would you say this bug looks like a dragonfly?

[fervent sigil]

though where is the sage part??

[halcyon merlin]

does it breathe fire

[fervent sigil]

listen...

[halcyon merlin]

🤯

[viscid ridge]

The tail, the face and such remind me a lot of a dragonfly. We also see a dragonfly in hollow knight that looks very similar to shakra, with exception to the wings. But as i said i think the specifics of what shakra is isn't all that important

[fervent sigil]

Belfly's hunter journal:
"Thin wings hide a highly volatile belly. Will give its own life to protect its territory."

[unique canopy]

I get that, I'm asking if you would say that the bug I posted looks like a dragonfly

I'm asking because the bug I posted is the adult form of the antlion. What we think of as antlions are the larval form

And seeing how TC still needs to add the Village of Lions at some point

Maybe?

[viscid ridge]

Oh idk it looks like one but something is off about it?

[viscid ridge]

Oh that's really cool, so maybe shakras tribe is the lion village that was talked about way back when

[sinful nimbus]

woahwoahwoah

i didn't know antlions had fly forms

[edgy nebula]

holy shiiiit shakra's tribe being lion village would be so bombastic

[sinful nimbus]

TRUE

[viscid ridge]

It honestly makes a lot of sense if you think about it

[craggy smelt]

whooaaa... fucck....

hmm

I remember a suggestion that Shakra was inspired by predatory wasps
looking at adult antlions, they have a similar shape so maybe...

[unique canopy]

Like the moment Shakra was all "we do not return to our villages when we leave, it is not our way!" I was like "okay so we're definitely going to your village in DLC and doing the whole you're not supposed to come back how dare you violate our sacred traditions blah blah deal"

[halcyon merlin]

her village must suck tbh

[viscid ridge]

Why?

[halcyon merlin]

too many rules like that

but considering its a warrior village i guess it makes sense

[viscid ridge]

But it sounds more like a self inflicted rule. Its not like, "oh when you leave you cant come back", its shakra has changed as a person after going into the wider world and finding her master, so she cant see herself returning back there.

[fervent sigil]

creige is related to the tribe too i think?

specifically related to shakra

[viscid ridge]

He is? Is this based on something he said or just similarities in design?

[fervent sigil]

wait what

was that a needolin dialogue from a random pilgrim?

i swear he said "lost tribe"

oh and also his mask is kinda related to shakra

[unique canopy]

Looking through his dialogue, he seems to consider himself a moorbug, so Greymoor is likely his actual home

[edgy nebula]

all creige cares for is nectar straight from the teat

[viscid ridge]

Cause i dont think anything in his dialogue mentions anything of shakras tribe, only think is his mask looks vaguely like those from the tribe

Or at least the 2 we see

[trail wagon]

no, not just you, me too

[trail wagon]

noooow that's just you for sure

[fervent sigil]

true

we barely know shit abt the belfly

[trail wagon]

yeah

[jagged brook]

so theres this theory that posits that Vessels were born in the Abyss and attempted to escape, with the first successful one chosen as the Hollow Knight. This method worked because the ability to drop Shades and respawn, a byproduct of one's connection to the Void (hollowness), determined which Vessels could survive the perilous climb. The player character, the Knight, is exceptionally hollow because it can drop infinite Shades and managed to escape the Abyss soon after the Hollow Knight did.

wait im in sk lore wtf

[frosty gate]

https://tenor.com/view/made-up-making-things-up-misinformation-spreading-misinformation-lying-gif-5615616319157116451

[timber pond]

It all made up bro

Team cherry Mining through Their brains and skin to pull out bugs:

[dreamy onyx]

the stilkin afaik aren't haunted in silksong

perhaps all the time spent in the polluted water allows the muckmaggots to leech off their silk

[lethal burrow]

(loud incorrect buzzer)

[dreamy onyx]

oop

my bad

[muted lantern]

surprisingly its a rather common misconception

Im not sure why

[dreamy onyx]

probably because how would they get the silk in them

the caretaker and hornet both surmise the reason for the haunting is grandmother silk controlling the bugs through silk that's in their bodies. this silk presumably comes from the weavers

bilewater is notoriously against the citadel

[muted lantern]

well, they live in the citadels waste, and the citadel produces a lot of silk. Silk pollutes the entirety of pharloom's environment, as stated by the crazy pilgrim in the marrow. "In the air. The water. Everywhere.
Inside their shells. Twisted inside. Guts.
Tightest around heart. Pulsing rhythm.
Sick. Alive. Dead?
Something worse.
Deeper. Must look deeper."

[dreamy onyx]

wouldnt the silk be dissolved by the muckmaggots?

maybe its through the exhaust organ

[lethal burrow]

there is a difference between those affected by the whiteboard experiments and those haunted.

Take the ants

I doubt the immortality procedures extended to them

[muted lantern]

Not impossible, but you also have to understand that its in everything in trace amounts, it can be passed down genetically as stated by caretaker, and even burning the body doesn't destroy the silk within, which is why they use cremation to extract the silk from corpses in whiteward. (It seems only the fire of the cultists in the wisp thicket is capably of properly burning it)

[muted lantern]

replying to this

I doubt muckmaggets would go for silk traces.

[lethal burrow]

The thread is more metaphysical anyway I doubt it literally wraps through all the caverns, and if the affected bike goes too far away it like... get pulled tight

[dreamy onyx]

so silk is basically like microplastics

[lethal burrow]

no?

[muted lantern]

Pilgrims are especially vulnerable due to the whiteward experiments, but we see basically every creature in the game is haunted, even all the way into mount fay.

[muted lantern]

It's a comparison im fond of, in the sense of how it permeates basically everything in pharloom

[muted lantern]

they mean by the nature of it permeating everything

[lethal burrow]

The whiteward experiments are not the same as the haunting in general people need to internalize this 😭

[dreamy onyx]

yeah, and especially with the body buildup

[muted lantern]

I mean they arent entirely separate either, the experiments made the pilgrims and citadel denizens especially vulnerable, which we see in how its only those iirc who can be fully resurected by the haunting.

[dreamy onyx]

if they wrote this in 2019 then they hit the nail before there even was a nail

[muted lantern]

The haunting though, afflicts everything, not just the experiments victims and their descendants

[lethal burrow]

yes.

I just wish more people actually made the distinction because everyone acts like all haunting and silk acts like whiteward stuff

[dreamy onyx]

i mean there's like one lore tablet in the marrow that suggests there's more

[muted lantern]

I personally think on account of the silk permeating everything in pharloom, hence why the only creatures we can't really needolin are ones with no silk in their bodies like the guys on the surface, greyroot and bb i think.

[dreamy onyx]

whiteward just gets the privillege of being the most overt use of silk

[muted lantern]

Also shoutout to the time my game bugged and styx lost his needolin dialogue making me question the entirety of that theory

[visual glacier]

What’s the discussion

[muted lantern]

about the reasons for the haunting.

[visual glacier]

Fayforn

[visual glacier]

Gms wants control or power or something idk

[muted lantern]

it's interesting the fayforn is silkless but her kids arent

[visual glacier]

It’s because they are haunted not because they have silk

[muted lantern]

right now i think the discussion is like does trace amounts of silk need to be present to be haunted, i argue in favor of such because we know the entireity of pharloom is polluted with traces of silk, as stated by the guy in the marrow

[visual glacier]

Shakra can choose to or not to sing

[muted lantern]

Are there instances where she doesnt sing when we play?

[visual glacier]

The fight

[muted lantern]

Interesting, why do you think shes unique in that manner?

[lethal burrow]

what do you mean? That's referring to the pilgrims which are also whiteward

[visual glacier]

Because it’s in character

Garmond and trobbio aren’t haunted but do sing because of their personalities

Gurr also doesn’t sing

[muted lantern]

In the air. The water. Everywhere. that part refers to the environment in general.

[lethal burrow]

could you get the full thing? I'm worried there might be missing context I'm forgetting.

[muted lantern]

Not saying you need to be haunted to sing, that wouldnt make any sense, im just saying it needs trace amounts of silk in the body

[dreamy onyx]

this and also pharloom is old asl

[muted lantern]

In the air. The water. Everywhere.
Inside their shells. Twisted inside. Guts.
Tightest around heart. Pulsing rhythm.
Sick. Alive. Dead?
Something worse.
Deeper. Must look deeper.

[dreamy onyx]

which gives the silk plenty of time build up

[muted lantern]

He starts talking about the silk permeating the environment, then goes into talking of the pilgrims

[lethal burrow]

hmmm

[visual glacier]

I’m saying that only haunted bugs are forced to sing

The others choose to

[muted lantern]

I really don't think so, I don't think every npc in the game wan'ts to burst into song at the drop of a tune, it seems very out of character for some imo

[visual glacier]

Like who?

[muted lantern]

I don't think the snail shamans who are clearly in hiding would want to belt out tunes about how they are secretly snails.

[visual glacier]

NPCs like skynx and greyroot sing but with no dialogue, bosses like shakra and Gurr don’t sing in combat

[visual glacier]

Hornet already knows that they are snails

It’s something she knows that we don’t

[muted lantern]

But they don't want her to know that, and she only tells one that she knows that.

and he gets quite upset

Also I don't think green prince is fond enough of hornet to sing for her about his dead lover.

it's the fact that the only creatures who don't react at all to needolin are the ones explicitly stated to have no silk in their bodies.

[visual glacier]

No??

Gurr definitely has silk in his body

[muted lantern]

right, I forget about gurr. he's an interesting case.

[visual glacier]

Also shakra chooses to or not to sing whenever she wants

[muted lantern]

We still get to hear her thoughts, though, when she does sing showing we do have some magical effect on her.

some creatures like lace are strong willed enough to resist unless staggered.

[visual glacier]

My point is that she isn’t forced to sing

[muted lantern]

but again, gurr is an interesting wrench in the matter

[visual glacier]

Encouraged? Maybe

[muted lantern]

Does she sing when staggered like lace?

[visual glacier]

Don’t think so

[muted lantern]

worth checking, that would put her into the strong willed category imo

[visual glacier]

Gurr definitely doesn’t tho

[muted lantern]

Yeah gurr is the real difficult one

still though, I think it's telling that the creatures stated to be silkless specifically don't react to needolin.

[visual glacier]

Who is stated to be silkless?

[muted lantern]

the little guys on the surface

[dreamy onyx]

surface bugs

[visual glacier]

Oh

[muted lantern]

This surface dweller is free of Silk. Its nature remains its own. The monarch's influence must only have stretched below it.

[visual glacier]

I know now that you reminded me

Shakra might have silk since she’s spent a while in pharloom and is from pharloom’s edge? Idk

[muted lantern]

it does feel like an intentional choice, gurr is an interesting case in that hes a mottled skarr, who are resistant to the haunting, but mr mottled skarr himself still sings and we translate his language when he does, so clearly he has silk in his body.

Can gurr be staggered?

[visual glacier]

Yes

Mottled skarr scout sings too

[visual glacier]

I think? Actually not sure

[visual glacier]

Ok he can

[muted lantern]

I will note, we do get needolin dialogue from in his trophy room, that is clearly his thoughts though thats a little different.

[visual glacier]

It’s a thread memory

[muted lantern]

which is why i said it's a little different

though don't thread memories have a silk mirage that picks up? i remember gurrs lacking that, being more akin to the ones we get from corpses.

gurr remains the primary hole in this theory

[visual glacier]

I’m pretty sure his does

[visual glacier]

Ok nvm

[muted lantern]

but it does still have the thread memories long thread in the room, which isnt in corpse dialogue.

so... idk

[ornate pier]

Gurr isnt haunted afaik

No silk particles fly out of him

[visual glacier]

I’m aware

He definitely has silk inside his body tho

[ornate pier]

All mottled skarr seem to resist the haunting

[ornate pier]

The implication is kinda EVERYONE has some silk in their body by now

[visual glacier]

Not skrill

[ornate pier]

Yeah Skrill is a special case because silk never reached the surface

[whole holly]

they likely didn't mean skrill because that's exception not rule

[ornate pier]

Also I do think some bugs just. Willingly sing

The mind reading shit might just be a property of the needolin

[whole holly]

with Greyroot and Fayforn that seems to be case

[ornate pier]

Do wonder why some don't have their thoughts show up? It's weird

Either way I am still quite sure that non haunted characters in general sing of their own will

Even if the magical mind reading stuff is still there, it's never really presented as forced as it is with haunted enemies

[whole holly]

because Needolin isn't enough to make their thoughts appear, if first game everyone was dream nailed and had dialogue, Needolin is downgrade to make silk and song larger narrative forces of Storyline

[ornate pier]

It would make sense though if like

They have silk in them and that's what reveals their thoughts

But the singing is still of their own volition

And I think gurr is a good proof of this

[whole holly]

i agree

[whole holly]

Greyroot and Fayforn seem to have less than regular bugs

it's kinda like Infection which didn't affect all of bugs, some bugs can evade Haunting

[muted lantern]

Okay I got a question, how different do you think each iteration of Grimm is from each other. Are the exactly identical? Do they only have small quirks to set them apart? Or do you think every troupe master is significantly different, the same memories, but a different personality, different appearance, etc?

[visual glacier]

I doubt they are identical

[muted lantern]

But how different do you think they are?

[visual glacier]

Grimm has black wings on the outside and red wings on the inside while grimmchild has only black wings

Could be an infancy thing tho

[lilac hedge]

Maybe the red thing in his torso is what colours it later

I mean hes pretty young so we dont know

[solar tapir]

Why do skarr ants have rosaries? Clearly not for trade, trophies maybe?

[muted lantern]

Considering the topic they are discussing in that line is referencing her mask, and masks are tied to ones own identity, the growth line is more referring to a growth as a person and a changing identity.

[viscid ridge]

Mask makers dialogue doesn't refer to physical transformation, more he talks about what path Hornet wants to take with her life. She also is incredibly old, and if we compare her to the pale king they are pretty much the same size

And i think if she got any bigger in the weaver queen ending, its likely due to absorbing GMS, not due to any genetics she has.

I also don't think this is the case, we see a lot of diversity in size with children of the Pale Beings, like Hornet and the vessels, which match very well with mask maker mentioning that not all higher beings develop equally, which could refer to physical apearance as well as power

[chrome saddle]

wsg gng

[viscid ridge]

The Hollow Knight specifically i think is that size because it was trained, but we do see another vessels like the Broken vessel that is larger than the knight as well. Also i believe the reason that hornet undergoes a transformation is probably because GMSs nature completely took over hornet, almost like what the cursed crest does.

But i don't think the process of how the hollow knight got so large is in any way comparable to the weaver queen transformation. I think its size can be eqauted to training and genetics.

[red cedar]

i know there might not be lore of this but what is the lore of nameless town

[viscid ridge]

1 i know i was making a comparison
2 because grandmother silk is a higher being, and Hornet saysin game with every crest she collects she is more and more at risk of losing her own identity
3 i did say like 2 times that it was trained so what is your point?

I realized i misread your last point, but its probably because Pale beings knew the proper ways to raise one of their kind, not because of some otherworldly power needed to make him that big*

Notice how is said i misread it so my bad

So you think that hornet is able to transform like that without absorbing her?

[dire lynx]

lost kin is notably larger than every vessel other than thk

[viscid ridge]

I think there must have been a misunderstanding, because thats exactly what i think too. But i think the way Hornet transforms into the weaver queen isn't compareble to how the hollow knight grows up.

You seem to believe that soul would be able to do such a thing, which it can to some extent with normal bugs, but higher beings like Hornet and the vessels i doubt it would.

Thats why im saying Hornets transformation isn't as a result of the soul she absorbs, but specifically GMS higher being nature.

[hushed crater]

Possibly and maybe the Shermans stay the same because their shells are somewhat like a vessel's shell allowing them to store soul

[stray fog]

It was a settlement on the surface
Slowly, everyone except one person went into pharloom because they were attracted by the stories of the citadel

The last remaining person died

[craggy smelt]

hrmm...

Garamond said his village was lost to Haunting, which isn't exactly what happened to the Nameless Village

I wonder if Garamond could discern the difference though

maybe he regards any influence from the Citadel as synonymous with the Haunting

[whole holly]

haunting influenced nameless village residents to come down to citadel, since residents were gone and last person died, village was lost to haunting

lost village implies either abandonment or residents dying, usually mix of both, nameless village is former village literally lost to haunting

[craggy smelt]

Garmond mentions a 'haunting of thread', while needolin dialogue in the village says

The weaving ones beckon...
Sweet promises whispered...
From depths below...
which sounds more like predation from the Weavers, not the full on Haunting by GMS

[whole holly]

wiki says nameless town, i forgot which is right, maybe British and American variations have different names

[whole holly]

it is still possible that Weavers used their Silk powers to lure residents, effectively haunting, and would explain why skrill try to run from needolin, i think garmond may be unable to distinguish bu i see your perspective more clearly now

plus memento and hut look similar to garmonds hat, shape wise, they both look like cones

since memento is Worn ornament of the Nameless Town high above Pharloom. it is possible that garmonds culture wearing it might connect them

[heavy gyro]

I dont think they can use silk on nameless town residents

but theres a needolin memory so who knows

[whole holly]

i mean they likely did, if not there skrill wouldn't have defense mechanism against needolin by running away, and there wouldn't be memory silk mirage

[frosty gate]

Has no one ever asked TC about why the fuck THK is bigger than TK?

[heavy gyro]

Isnt it because it was raised and trained to prime form

[frosty gate]

No real confirmation of that

[heavy gyro]

Pure vessel journal entry?

[frosty gate]

We see them small then big

[whole holly]

yeah "Chosen vessel, raised and trained to prime form."

[frosty gate]

"Raised and trained to prime form" doesn't specifically say "Yeah that's why he grew up"

[heavy gyro]

It's the implication

[whole holly]

but it says raised and trained which is heavy implication if you consider that grown up form is prime form

[heavy gyro]

It doesnt explain the how it happened but it does explain what happened

[whole holly]

yeah

[frosty gate]

That wouldn't explain why BV is inbetween the two

Despite being just another discarded vessel

[heavy gyro]

BV is a weird case

[stray fog]

What are the sizes of the vessels in nosk's lair?

[frosty gate]

And, despite not being a Vessel, it wouldn't explain why Hornet isn't taller

[stray fog]

Compared to normal vessels

[heavy gyro]

I think pv is tall due to WL genes

[stray fog]

She has a different parent

Cant compare the 2 in this regard

[frosty gate]

Herrah is not short

[heavy gyro]

WL is way taller than Herrah so it makes sense

[stray fog]

I dont think tc thought about genetics that much

[frosty gate]

Still, Hornet is like a third of Herrah's height, she isn't even the same height as Weavers

And PK wasn't that short

[frosty gate]

That makes more sense

[heavy gyro]

Tbf PK and hornet are about the same size

[stray fog]

What if the infection somehow let it grow?
(I don't have any evidence or reason to belive this, its just speculation)

[heavy gyro]

It wasnt infected before the lightseeds came

[stray fog]

Oh

[frosty gate]

Yeah it was just a corpse

[stray fog]

Maybe it ate food

The vessels dont need food

But if they eat it

They grow?

[frosty gate]

Grapes? Stuff it in the Broken Vessel

[heavy gyro]

Vessel malnourishment theory

[stray fog]

Normal sized ig

[frosty gate]

Yeah they look normal sized

[heavy gyro]

The p4 cutscene also shows a bunch of vessels and theyre all the same size

[craggy smelt]

THK grew because of their special upbringing - 'raised and trained to prime form'
TK stayed small because of child neglect

[stray fog]

What did nosk do when these vessels became shades?

Has nosk fought shades

[frosty gate]

I still think it doesn't explain BV and, stretching it, Hornet

[stray fog]

"damnit the child became an eldritch entity again"

[craggy smelt]

BV is around the same size as several vessel corpses seen in the Abyss - vessels come in slightly different sizes, probably just natural variation
Hornet takes more after her dad, I guess

[stray fog]

Ig the size difference isn't that big between tk and bv

[craggy smelt]

there's a graphic about it

somewhere...

[frosty gate]

This is promo art but BV looks a bit taller

HEad is about the same size tho

[heavy gyro]

The real question is why do vessels' head shapes change so much when they grow up

[frosty gate]

Tbh I don't even understand why they have Horns

Their horns look absolutely different from PK's

I hate to look at PK alive so much he looks like a dork

[craggy smelt]

WL's influence maybe
she has all the horns

[frosty gate]

Those are branches or roots or whatever

Not exactly like Horns

[heavy gyro]

PK's horns and WL's branches combined ig

[craggy smelt]

what is a branch, but the horns of a tree

[whole holly]

PKs looks like crown, Root and Crown features combined into proper horns

but i wonder if PK and WL had child and it grew up normally , outside abyss, how would they turn out? would they be higher being? what would they have instead of shade? Soul Silhouette?

would they generate infinite soul? or something like that?

[stray fog]

Biologically, the child would be similar to pv I think

Except for the void

[whole holly]

i think so too, with less emptiness, like hornet has Silk, they would have natural soul generated within

[stray fog]

Probably

The child will be more pale than hornet

So more soul affinity than hornet

[whole holly]

yeah, it would have combination of Pure Vessel, Hornet and Kingsoul traits i think

[heavy gyro]

I think it would probably be a higher being

[viscid ridge]

Whats the discussion?

[whole holly]

i think we need to see more higher beings in general, and world-building of hollow knight universe should be more fleshed out, stuff like essence void and soul as primal forces

[whole holly]

discussions pretty much over, it was about what if wl and pk's child raised outside abyss and what they would be like

[viscid ridge]

Eh not really. It would be nice to get more lore on them, but we pretty much know most of all there is at the moment

[viscid ridge]

Oh

[whole holly]

i mean lifeblood needs to be elaborated on, as well as Steel Heart masters, sylphean slug, explanation of pale being and implications

Ancient Civilization, shall i name more?

[stray fog]

I like the mysterious way in which lore is presented by tc

It makes theorizing more fun

[whole holly]

well yes but more implications about general lore

[frosty gate]

I wonder at which point of the Citadel the Forge bugs were Hired

During the making of it or after it was stablished

[lilac hedge]

What are forge bugs again

[frosty gate]

The Deep Docks people

Forge Daughter isn't really informative about it

Although she doesn't seem confused by the mention of Weavers

[whole holly]

Loddies and Sprintmaster's Assistant Bugs linda look similar, they both act like they have some goal to achieve, i was also going to mention Zaza but that's obviously different bug, but they are similar sized

[frosty gate]

But she also doesn't speak negatively or positively about them

[frosty gate]

Zaza seems like a special case honestly

[whole holly]

why?

[frosty gate]

I did not realize Loddie's assistant and Sprintmaster did look similar though

[whole holly]

there are no good pictures of Sprintmaster's Assistant, but both Loddie's Tribe and Garmond's Village are gone

[frosty gate]

TC said Zaza could be the brains while Garmond was described as chatty

[whole holly]

there should be wiki page for Loddie's and Sprintmaster's Assistant or actual NPC image of them

[whole holly]

i don't know why it makes zaza special, is garmod zaza's assistant?

sad that Loddie seems to be dead

[whole holly]

no body found though

[frosty gate]

More like a companion, Garmond treats him as an equal

[whole holly]

yeah, i didn't know that was what you mean as opposed to smaller bugs being assistants

[frosty gate]

Yeah I mean, the other assistant bugs are just

Assistants

Garmond treats Zaza as a friend

[whole holly]

yeah but they deserve more love

anyways i got all memento's except, hunter's,not missing much entries tbh

[frosty gate]

Do the assistant bugs even have dialogue?

Needolin?

[whole holly]

nope, neither does zaza, only needolin dialogue, which is mostly same as sprintmaster's and loddie's

[frosty gate]

Zaza does

Someone didn't Needolin Zaza after Lost Garmond

Oh wait, I didn't read it properly

Yeah nvm

[whole holly]

yes, i needolined zaza, i thought you meant regular dialogue

[frosty gate]

Both

But yeah, Zaza is weird

[stray fog]

Can zaza even speak

[frosty gate]

It's never stated he can't

[whole holly]

part of me hopes loddie's not dead, another part of me hopes Sprintmaster Swift dies in DLC

talking about outrunning fate like he has to save pharloom

[frosty gate]

TC said this about the two

"A rambunctious older bug and his noble steed, on a quest to discover a new home. Garmond may be the chattier of the two, but Zaza could be the real brains of the pair."

I absolutely don't get this dynamic btw

"Noble Steed" as if it was a fucking Horse

[stray fog]

Wait isnt the dashmaster the blue one?

Not the sprintmaster

[whole holly]

ye

[stray fog]

Why is swift blue

[frosty gate]

But then goes "Real brains of the pair"

[frosty gate]

He also dashes

[unique canopy]

Don't kinkshame Zaza

[whole holly]

it could just mean garmond is not that smart

[frosty gate]

True

[stray fog]

Someone said that he was inspired by Don Quixote

However you spell it

[frosty gate]

He absolutely fucking is

[stray fog]

And that guy was stupid

[frosty gate]

The Quixote wasn't stupid

He was insane

Literally insane

Medically

[stray fog]

Oh

[frosty gate]

Can't remember if I ever read it, it's been a long time

But everyone knows Don Quijote

[unique canopy]

Garmond's first appearance is in an area with a lot of windmills

[stray fog]

🔥

[frosty gate]

I was gonna say the same thing

[unique canopy]

But unlike Don Quixote, Garmond is actually on a reasonable quest and is actually competent at it, he just overexerts himself

[frosty gate]

Define "Reasonable"

[unique canopy]

Wanting revenge against the Citadel for the devestation of his village?

[stray fog]

I wish we had a comedic character like zote in silksong

[frosty gate]

What devastated his village was the haunting

So he was actually looking for GMS

[stray fog]

He doesn't know that

[frosty gate]

Which was not reasonable

[unique canopy]

Yeah but keep in mind GMS' existence isn't widely known, all they knew was the Citadel.

[frosty gate]

Thank God he didn't

"Don't worry sister, Zaza and I will follow you above"

[frigid belfry]

more of looking for the source of the thing that destroyed his hometown

[unique canopy]

G&Z could take GMS without Hornet, easy

[fathom hill]

i think he did say he would find whoevers responsible directly

I'd have to check though

[stray fog]

How did they know that the haunting was related to the citadel

No other pilgrim seems to know iirc

[frosty gate]

Pilgrims don't even understand the Haunting

[unique canopy]

The Citadel was that horrible that they just reasonably assumed that the latest horrible mess was caused by them?

[stray fog]

Realistic

[frosty gate]

Fair assumption honestly

On another topic, I'm still at a stump about Forge Daughter and the Forgebugs

[cold solstice]

Is gms stronger than pale king

[stray fog]

No idea

[whole holly]

maybe, we never see alive pale king so

[stray fog]

We don't have much information to compare them

[frosty gate]

Also why the fuck does Forge Daughter not mention the Forebrothers

They are her bosses

Technically

[cold solstice]

Prime gms creating creature with superb intelligence out there

[frosty gate]

Or so it seems

WHO THE FUCK IS FORGE DAUGHTER SHE MAKES ME SO MAD

[cold solstice]

Weaver can built an entire civilization

[stray fog]

Pk did that with many more people in hallownest

[cold solstice]

It’s just him

Also average weaver are stronger than average a vessel

[frosty gate]

I mean

The average Vessel is a dead child

[stray fog]

Wr don't know that

[heavy gyro]

Strongest vessel is stronger than strongest weaver

[cold solstice]

The knight and pure vessel are just really special

Random vessel got killed by hornet 1

Which means they are not that strong

[stray fog]

Again, thats a neglected dead fetus

A fully grown vessel (pv) is much stronger

[cold solstice]

We have seen lots of vessel corpse in hk

[frosty gate]

Well this is turning to powerscaling, I'm gonna go suffer with my timeline on my own

[cold solstice]

Strongest weaver is just gms herself

She might be able to create something stronger than her

Like how pk create the knight

[frigid belfry]

gms isnt a weaver

they arent even a similar species

how can we powerscale the pk when we've seen him do nothing combat wise

[cedar skiff]

A collection

Collective

she? refers to herself? as we?

i just had to double check cause maybe it was in the context of her role but like no

“A smith? Hardly so crude! We are Forge Daughter!”

[frosty gate]

Yeah she uses "The Royal We"

For reasons unknown

I'm convinced she is a Queen or princess to her people

[unique canopy]

Royal we because she's referring to her position. She's the latest of a long line of Forge Daughters

[frosty gate]

wdym

[unique canopy]

She says so right after the line that d-side quotes

[frosty gate]

I mean yeah, it's a position but the Forebrothers seem to be the actual overseers of the place

[unique canopy]

A smith? Hardly so crude! We are Forge Daughter! How can a pointy bug not tell?
Ours is the ancient line and honoured role. These docks and lands around are fortunate to have our skills.

[frosty gate]

So i don't get who's higher in the chain

She also doesn't feel

Important i guess

[unique canopy]

H: How did you come to serve these docks, Forge Daughter?
FD: Sent from our Forgehome we were, at request of those holy bugs above.
H: The Citadel dwellers? The veiled bugs? They order you here?
FD: Yes! An age ago that. Such is duty! We Forge Daughters live to hone the craft, and aid the line.
FD: By the Citadel's patronage, and our long duty upon these docks, our Forgehome would swell in holy esteem.

So they were recruited by the Citadel from their actual home for their skills, while the Forebrothers are mostly concerned with the actual mining.

[frosty gate]

And Ballow doesn't even seem revere her either

[frosty gate]

Fair, but who came first?

Or did they all come as a package deal?

I'm guessing the latter

And the most annoying question is the when

[unique canopy]

Ballow does refer to her as the boss, but he might simply have been assigned as her personal worker.

The annoying part is he doesn't have any real dialogue until act 3 so we don't get to talk to him about how the Docks came about and where its workers are from

[frosty gate]

She does say she was hired by the veiled bugs
Which in other words means it was The Citadel in an already advanced state

I guess it would mean the came before the Architects?

Or before Underworks at least

[unique canopy]

Hornet calls them the veiled bugs, although FD doesn't correct her or express confusion

[frosty gate]

Yeah, she explictly says "The Citadel"

She also doesn't seem confused by the mention of a "Weavenest"

Like "Yeah sure those exist"

And she seems to sorta understand the Tool enough to rebuild it

So she knew Weavers?

I had the appointments very wrong a couple of weeks back, I guess it was Conductors, Vaultkeepers right after, then Forge Daughter a while after, then Architects last

[unique canopy]

Forebrothers are referred to as the oveseers who are responsible for the oversight of the excavations, so maybe Forge Daughter is the actual boss of the whole thing and the Forebrothers are subordinate specifically in charge of the mining. The alternative is that the Forebrothers are actually in charge of the entire thing and Forge Daughter is a specialist recruited for a defined role outside the scope of their organization.

[frosty gate]

I think it would be the former, but I still don't know why she has no dialogue about them

[unique canopy]

The main difference is that the Architects are a defined important role within the Citadel itself, important enough that they have one of the threefold melody. Whereas, while the Forge Daughters were recruited by the Citadel, they exist outside it and don't consider themselves part of it.

[frosty gate]

I mean yeah they're basically mercs

But they still seem to have come before the Architects

[wise sand]

I mean they're just dead posessed children usually

If they grow then they're a lot more powerful than weavers

Its kinda unfair given that weavers actually get to do stuff on their own for the most part

99.99999% of vessels are stuck in abyss til they die

[cold solstice]

Weavers are also very smart

[frosty gate]

[cold solstice]

They create technology and society’s systems

[wise sand]

If every vessel were to be given the same opportunities as the average weaver they'd outclass the strongest weaver imo

[cedar skiff]

it sorta feels like deep docks had to be made early on cause of the existence of the diving bell

[past shuttle]

Got a question here

I think i understand now a good part of the silksong lore, but i still don't get why hornet was kidnapped at the beginning of the game?

As I understand, GMS and Weavers created the citadel, but later on, the Weavers betrayed GMS and sealed her in the cradle, after that, the weavers started creating some kind of religion, that bugs from pharloom had to start a pilgrimage to the citadel, in order to have their holy reward, but it was all a lie, and they were sent to the citadel in order to sing the song that keeps GMS asleep, so the citadel is basically a cage for GMS. After creating those gramophones at the top of cogwork core that are able to play the song, the weavers were no longer in need of the pilgrims, and left pharloom.

After the weavers leave pharloom, they arrive at Hallownest, specifically at deepnest, where they meet Herrah, who becomes her leader. Herrah gives birth to Hornet, but the weavers wanted Hornet to awaken her pale being/weaver powers, so that she can usurp GMS and become the new ruler of Pharloom, so that finally, the weavers can take control of it. But Herrah wants Hornet to choose her own path, not what her lineage wants.

So, years after that, GMS partially breaks out of her seal, and starts the Haunting, using her silk to control the bugs from Pharloom, even taking the dead bugs back to life, then she controls some bugs and make them kidnap hornet from hallownest and take her to Pharloom.

Now the question
Why the fuck would GMS want to kidnap Hornet and take her to Pharloom, if that is exactly part of the weavers plan, she knows Hornet can defeat her and usurp her throne, so why would she take her to Pharloom? It would make much more sense if the Weavers were the ones who kidnapped hornet, but it was GMS

[sterile jacinth]

That was not part of the weaver plan lol. She was kidnapped because gms was getting revenge and sending citadel bugs to capture weaver descendants

The weavers planned specifically against that. They had so many plans and redundancies in place because they knew gms would wake up

Weavers as we know them are dead so gms went after their descendants

What gms did not anticipate was her perfect daughter rebelling against her and freeing Hornet

Lots of plans going south

[plain gazelle]

GMS explicitly wants Hornet's silk. What exactly she wants it for is not explicit. I think it's pretty clear that GMS has been weakened from her long time asleep with her silk being siphoned, and she needs to bind Hornet (or some powerful weaver) to regain her strength. This is basically what happens in the fully animated cut ending, if you haven't seen it.

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think she necessarily needs her silk. I think it’s more out of irrational retaliation than anything

It might make her more powerful but I don’t think that’s the main drive behind it

[frosty gate]

I don't think she needs her silk, but it would definitely speed up the process

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah. I think it’s a factor but just not the main one

also cut content isn’t something you want to use too heavily as a source

?

Ooh

Again I’m not disagreeing I do think it plays a role but I think it’s mainly for revenge

[plain gazelle]

There's absolutely a revenge element / wanting to take control back over her "daughters", though I think the practical power move is more pressing

[sterile jacinth]

Gms is angry and sad and hurt so she’s lashing out

From what we see of gms I think she leads more with emotion than logic, kinda like rad

[plain gazelle]

If GMS was at her peak, she could just create more Weavers like she did before instead of the physically weaker Lace. I think the very name "grand mother" is supposed to evoke her infertility and age, even if pale beings don't age in the traditional sense. She's sort of like the old evil queen trying to get her mojo back from the young princess type of trope.

[sterile jacinth]

The weavers had the capacity to betray her. Lace an phantom rely on her silk to live.

Mods send his ass to soul sanctum

[whole holly]

how is this allowed

[sterile jacinth]

I think it can be both

I think her ultimate sense of being is her status as a mother. I think that comes primary before everything else

Not power not revenge

Holy shit it’s been 30 seconds

What? Getting hacked?

Don’t place the blame entirely on them

Yeah maybe they could have been smarter but they’re still victims

That’s rude

They got hacked :/ not fun

[frosty gate]

Honestly, I haven't downloaded anything weird in ages and I somehow got Pwned, so I'm not sure

I didn't send nothing over here and got my account back tho

But I did send it to a bunch of my dc friends

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah things are more nuanced

It can definitely be annoying but please try to keep an open mind

[frosty gate]

Yeah, same one, but I never got into no link or anything, i mean, we barely have a chance to glance at the images when they get sent here

Had to put 2FA in all my shit

Thought I had it already, turns out i didn't

It actually happened with my Instagram first, though I'm unsure if it was connected or not

That was my sin honestly

Yeah I was affected by a breach in 2024 that I didn't know, but nothing recent

[stray fog]

haveibeenpwned

How did gms wake up when hornet challenged her

She couldn't wake up before that

[craggy smelt]

I think she was able to for a while, she tells Hornet to come and 'witness her waking' in a silkheart memory

maybe she was staying in the cocoon to further build up her power, and chose to confront Hornet with what she had

[plain gazelle]

yeah no need to strain herself while weak when she can already pull all the kingdom's strings from the cradle

[dusky bay]

Is it a coincidence that sherma says at the first door in the game that it will be opened by song
And around midway you start opening doors with the needolin?
I wonder who told sherma that or did he saw a weaver once open a door with a song idk...

[frosty gate]

I can't have seen a Weaver doing it because they're all dead

[languid carbon]

Sinner was alive

[frosty gate]

Sinner is in a coma

And very much trapped in the slab

By 4 seals

[languid carbon]

maybe. im kinda new to this stuff

[frosty gate]

And encaged in metal

[languid carbon]

yea I get it

he was disabled. got your point

[frosty gate]

Widow was alive though

And she can use needolin

I mean, chances of that happening are slim

[languid carbon]

the nerve of sherma to witness that stuff

and not get nailed

[frosty gate]

But it could be a tradition or myth among the Pilgrims

[languid carbon]

amazing

[frosty gate]

I mean, Widow wouldn't care

[languid carbon]

yea maybe. I mean, its all abt song

anyways bro. wanna be frends

???

[lean temple]

It likely is some sort of myth based on actual music doors. It just happens that the fact got mixed with fictions probably from being passed around so long.

[plain gazelle]

i mean it's more likely to be connected to the Grand Gate door than weavenests, since that's the end goal of the pilgrimage and all the pilgrims seem to know you need to play music to open it

[vivid kernel]

The pale king is in love with gms

[lean temple]

Good point

[frosty gate]

Can we talk about how many locks did they put on this shit?

Weavers were paranoid

First the Bells to open the door

Then the TFM

[stray fog]

Tfm?

[frosty gate]

Then the seal they put on GMS

[frosty gate]

Threefold Melody

[stray fog]

Oh

[lean temple]

It isn't about paranoia. It's about rooting out the weak, so only the most devout and committed, ie the most brainwashed and obedient, made it to the Citadel

[stray fog]

I thought it was like a password to let only the upper management of the citadel access the cradle

The melody

[frosty gate]

I was talking about locks they put on GMS honestly, but yeah

[frosty gate]

I think it is, otherwise it makes no sense

Even so, I think it's weird that the statues ask for it

Or rather, they ask a Pilgrim to give it

[lean temple]

On GMS it makes sense for it to be extreme caution, since yknow, Higher Being and all that

[frosty gate]

It's only fair, locks upon locks

[stray fog]

Its a facade so that noone questions it

If the elevator had no statues telling you to get the melodies, that would raise a little bit of suspicion about the elevator's existence

the pilgrims will hear about the melodies and focus on getting them (which they probably won't), instead of questioning the elevator's purpose

Idk pilgrims are stupid

So they might not think allat

[frosty gate]

I mean, i don't think they think that hard about stuff

[lean temple]

I don't think many Pilgrims if any actually managed to get up to the cradle

It just seems like a final herculean task to keep you preoccupied

[stray fog]

Yeah

[frosty gate]

It doesn't seem like none did

[lean temple]

And like the Vaultkeepers were very miserly with their melody

[frosty gate]

No corpses or anything

I hate to say it, but the whole pilgrimage thing reminds me of this one WH40K story a friend told me about

[stray fog]

They might have sent someone up to harvest silk from the cocoon or something

[stray fog]

Although there is a ventrica to the cradle so why use the elevator at all

Unless the elevator was built before the ventrica

[viscid ridge]

You have to remember there was easy transport via the ventrica tubes untill it was recently closed, so i think in the beginning there were a lot of bugs that made it there, but not recently as the citidel fell apart

[frosty gate]

Probably the case

[lean temple]

Maybe the ventrica was built after, plus they did decommission them cuz of accidents

[frosty gate]

I can't remember if the Ventrica had a lever or a broken wall to enter the Cradle

[lean temple]

Broken wall iirc

[frosty gate]

It was a wall right?

If that's the case, it makes no sense they used Ventricas to get there

[lean temple]

You can go to the terminus pre cradle but it's walled off

[viscid ridge]

I have a feeling that the ventrica was originally there, designed by the weavers for easy transport, but i dont really have any evidence for it

[frosty gate]

Probably a building mistake

[lean temple]

It is advanced which could mean Weavers, but it could also have been an innovation of the Architects

[frosty gate]

Honestly, I'm unsure which came first, both seem new

[stray fog]

Was the steampunk stuff made by the Weavers or the architects?

Weaver tech has a different theme

[frosty gate]

Both, kinda

Weaver tech is probably not for the public

That or the Conductors wiped it, which I don't think is the case

[viscid ridge]

I think the using of steam was always there, because the whole cradle and tubes around the citidel use those pipes

[frosty gate]

The Architect stuff is probably just cheaper to make

While I'm on the topic

Do you think the Forge Daughter, and therefore, the Forgebugs, were hired before the First Architect was appointed?

[viscid ridge]

Honestly probably, i think the forge daughters is mainly responsible for all the ironwork in the citidel.

And we see the first architect also has the same bronze design, so maybe the weavers and the forgedaughters helped eachotherto build them

Or atleast the first one

[lean temple]

"Hornet: How did you come to serve these docks, Forge Daughter?
Sent from our Forgehome we were, at request of those holy bugs above.
Hornet: The Citadel dwellers? The veiled bugs? They order you here?
Yes! An age ago that. Such is duty! We Forge Daughters live to hone the craft, and aid the line.
By the Citadel's patronage, and our long duty upon these docks, our Forgehome would swell in holy esteem."

[frosty gate]

I think I know the answer to this, but where do we see the First Architect?

[lean temple]

No mention of the Weavers

[frosty gate]

BUT

If you go a bit higher

[viscid ridge]

Their all in that little hole in the chapel remember. And they all look the same, so i don't think they're design ever changed

[frosty gate]

Hornet mentions Weavenests, and for some reason Forge Daughter has no reaction

Which honestly, doesn't mean much

But it can either be "Idk wtf that is and we're not gonna ask" or "Why of course, I don't need extra info because I already know it"

[unique canopy]

The Weavers are still known with all the spires around, and the weavenest doors are mostly out in the open. The Weavers themselves are thought to be all long dead (which they were aside from Widow) but it wouldn't be strange to hear "oh yeah I stumbled on this old Weaver den and found this"

[frosty gate]

There's a HUGE gap there because of that dialogue and I can't close that gap

[lean temple]

Yeah the implications are vague

[stray fog]

She might have thought "yeah those fuckers probably lived somewhere"

[plain gazelle]

Yeah weavers haven't been forgotten the way GMS has, they're just not revered anymore and a bit mysterious. Even Shakra is like "oh yeah i've heard of those guys" and she's not even from Pharloom

[frosty gate]

Unless I make a huge a assumption and put a rug over the gap

[unique canopy]

Like, Shakra knows about the Weavers and her village is so far on the outskirts that nobody from it is Haunted. She just thinks that, again, they're long dead ancient beasts, but they still existed, so the idea of an old Weaver den wouldn't sound strange.

[lean temple]

Interesting that both 12 Architect and Cardinius are seemingly bound to serve the Weavers, while Forge Daughter has no reaction nor does she seem to realize Hornet is half Weaver

[unique canopy]

What you said is why I think the Forge Daughters came after

Back when the Citadel was run by the common bugs, they set up the Docks and hired the Forgebugs because all the rocks and metals being excavated were needed for the cogwork machinery

[viscid ridge]

I have to add that shakra is from pharloom. Her village is somewhere on its edge

[stray fog]

Most everyday bugs dont realize that hornet is a half weaver

She doesn't have six eyes or something

[lean temple]

What I meant is that those who served the Weavers recognize Hornet's lineage

[unique canopy]

While true, this also means the Architects and Vaultkeepers had a much closer relationship to the Weavers than the Forge Daughters did, that they could still recognize even a half-Weaver so many years later

[plain gazelle]

Forge Daughters are basically enserfed contractors I wouldn't expect them to be personally bound to weavers in the same way the Citadel's highest ranks were

like they could have been brought in during Weaver rule/construction and it still could have all been done by middle management

[frosty gate]

My theoyr, and the only way I can close that gap, is that Forgedaughter does't care

She's a merc

You hire me i work

I don't care who you are

[lean temple]

Possible

[frosty gate]

But it's still weird the lack of recognition

The other assumption I have to close that gap is simply that there was long time between the Weavers setting the Citadel and the Forge Daughter getting hired

At the point the Weavers wanted to hired FD, they didn't do it themselves

[plain gazelle]

well, this specific Forge Daughter is just the last in the line, right? she's probably not particularly old at all

[frosty gate]

They did what they do best

Let someone else handle it

[unique canopy]

There is one important thing that needs to be addressed with Deep Docks and the timeline though, and that's whether or not the diving bell is the only way to bypass the lava, or if there's another path into the Abyss, because of Weavenest Absolom

[frosty gate]

There has to be another entryway

[stray fog]

Yeah

[frosty gate]

That bell was not made for Weavers

[stray fog]

Also, the ancient civilization probably came to the abyss before the diving bell existed

[plain gazelle]

I wouldn't be surprised if the weavers got spooked by whatever they stirred up in the Abyss and flooded the path leading there with lava

[frosty gate]

AC could've been there before there was even lava, we don't know

[unique canopy]

If that were true they wouldn't have left the spire down there

[frosty gate]

I don't think that's the case honestly, but it'd be funny if it was

[lean temple]

"Before Pharloom's birth" definitely

[stray fog]

It seems less likely to me

[viscid ridge]

I think the lava was probably always there, but the AC weren't as prevalent in pharloom cause its void sea is a little smaller than the one in hallownest and there are also metions in HK that something about hallownest is special

But the diving bell is definitely a weaver exclusive thing, after AC

[frosty gate]

I said that as an exaggeration, i don't really know

[frosty gate]

I have to say this, that Bell was not made for Weavers

[stray fog]

Who else goes to the abyss though

The dock workers could have gone there for exploration, but they wouldn't go there repeatedly

Just go once, see that there's "nothing", come back

[frosty gate]

I want you to look at this

[sterile jacinth]

My theory is it was the gilded citadel trying to see what’s up with the abyss and then realized that was a stupid idea and stopped

Probably because there was a weavenest there

[frosty gate]

I want you to

Imagine

A Weaver sitting there

Entering it

With their big ass head

[sterile jacinth]

It’s not weaver architecture. They likely had a different way to the abyss

[stray fog]

Makes sense

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, but i honestly think it was. I dont see what the deep dockers were gonna do with the void. My interpretation is that the docks were built for the weavers by maybe the forge daugters and they requested a bell for diving deep.

[frosty gate]

I just think it was to get below the Lava to find more minerals and found the Abyss by mistake

Dock workers just want minerals

They don't know what's down there

[sterile jacinth]

It’s gilded citadel architecture and that popped up after the weavers left

[frosty gate]

"We dug too deep" type shit

[stray fog]

They would have stayed away after seeing those tendrils

[plain gazelle]

No one does, miss! Them's who used to dive're all long dead, or cursed ta half life. An' there ain't no bug left alive's been brave or stupid enough to try... 'til now, at least.

Implied that at least the last of the people who used the diving bell were regular bugs, since they're now haunted (half life, I assume)

[frosty gate]

And they did!

There's no corpses

[sterile jacinth]

Abandoning that was probably one of the smartest decisions the citadel made lol

[frosty gate]

And the bell is abandoned

Guarded by the two overseers who probably said "Fuck that shit" and closed it off

[stray fog]

Reasonable reaction

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah lol

One of their only smart decisions

[frosty gate]

https://tenor.com/view/gordon-freeman-half-life-half-life-2-smoke-smoking-gif-10286882637165944395

[sterile jacinth]

I think the mods will kill you for that

[plain gazelle]

barnaks built the diving bell confirmed

[sterile jacinth]

(Gifs aren’t allowed lol)

[stray fog]

I wish this channel wasn't so strict

1 message is not harming anyone

[frosty gate]

Mods only pop here when the scam pic appears

[sterile jacinth]

I prefer more serious and analytical conversations over like memes

[frosty gate]

The Gif thing was metal being here mostly all the time

[sterile jacinth]

Some mods chat on here pretty regularly tho

Yea

[frosty gate]

I haven't seen Metal in a month at least

[sterile jacinth]

I’ve been pretty inactive so I wouldn’t know

[frosty gate]

I pop here at least once a day, I haven't seen Metal in a while

[stray fog]

Same

[frosty gate]

The other one was Pale King, or Pale Being, can't remember

Pale something

Haven't seen them either

(They also don't kill you, they just delete the gif)

Well, I think I may have finally come to a conclusion

Conductors came first
Then the Vaultkeepers
Then, a parentesis for the Forgebugs
Then Architects

That would mean, i guess, that Sentinels only brought slaves

And that they didn't bring people for the Choir

I guess that would also explain why Pilgrims and Underworkers don't look alike

I'm gonna go with that

Next wall, the fucking Slab

[lean temple]

Idk to me it seems Conductors came last

For one the Vaultkeepers only answered to the Weavers

[stray fog]

Nvm

[lean temple]

Conductors only got the full leadership after the Weavers fucked off

[spark valve]

After they died out

[frosty gate]

It wouldn't make sense because they need someone to sing while they set the rest of things up

[spark valve]

Conductors came last other than maybe the architects, they just took over from the weavers who were dying out in Pharloom

[lean temple]

They have Pilgrims for that. And I doubt the individual Conductors mattered much for singing

[frosty gate]

The Conductor lead the Choir and know the lie

No other bug in the Citadel knew about the Lie

[lean temple]

The humble Pontiff

[frosty gate]

To be fair he found out after a while

The Conductors got told

It would make sense the Conductors came first, got told about GMS, and got told to lead a Choir

[lean temple]

After they learned it from Weaver relics?

[frosty gate]

Wdym

[spark valve]

Vaultkeepers started under the weavers

[frosty gate]

The Rune Harp?

[lean temple]

Yes, the one Ballador took

[frosty gate]

Romino came first and he knew too

[frosty gate]

Unless you mean that Harp was first found by Romino and passed down

I think the Weavers just told them the lie

[lean temple]

Why would they tell them?

[frosty gate]

I was waiting for you to ask that

[lean temple]

"Hey guys we're all liars and pissed off a god who could wake up and kill y'all any second. Bye!"

[spark valve]

they probably didn't tell them

[frosty gate]

My biggest theory is that the Conductors and the first people in the Choir came from the Nameless Town

[spark valve]

they just said to keep the music going which is all they needed to know

[stray fog]

They have to now handle gms, but in return, they get to be the kings of pharloom

[lean temple]

False kings crowned by other false queens

The Weavers just threw their burden on them and dipped

[stray fog]

Does it matter if their subjects don't know that they are false kings

[frosty gate]

This is the thing that makes the most sense.

[stray fog]

Why?

[spark valve]

the nameless town bugs did become weaver servants yes

[stray fog]

But why specifically the conductors?

[spark valve]

conductors were weaver servants until they took power

[stray fog]

I know, but whats the reason behind believing that they became the conductors, and not any other servant

[spark valve]

they didn't just become the conductors

[lean temple]

"The mantle of rule, claimed greedily from Pharloom's fading first children, those bitter Weavers... it was yoke, not crown.
Now, in our Citadel's silence, we share their truth. Only one monarch's claws ever clutched this kingdom, though we raised our voices to cry otherwise.
Would you see her, pilgrim? Up there at our Citadel's crown? Reach those heights we'd hoped to hide and bow before this land's true ruler."

"In our Citadel's silence", meaning they didn't know what they were getting themselves into when they took power.

[spark valve]

it means now that their power is gone that doesn't inherently mean they didn't know what they were doing

mask maker is the one that says they didn't know what they were doing

[stray fog]

Maybe this relates to our cradle elevator discussion earlier

The threefold melody is a filter to hire new people to become the next in line for the big three of the citadel

[lean temple]

Still led by the Weavers

[stray fog]

It seems obvious now that I said it

[frosty gate]

Well, the Nameless Town needolin dialogue states that the Weavers, specifically the Weavers, lured them down with empty promises

"The weaving ones beckon...
Sweet promises whispered...
From depths below...
Friends seduced...
Now only the wind..."

To come down from Nameless Town, you are forced to go through the Cradle, so the people had to see GMS sleeping and instead of lying, they said that was a God and that they (The Weavers) defeated it. That would solidify the image of Weavers being divine in the eyes of commong bugs.

The Conductors themselves were tasked only to lead a Choir to keep her asleep, they were directly under Weaver rule as servants. Once the Weavers left, they quickly declared themselves as leaders to keep their status of importance.

[spark valve]

yes it was the weavers' design that they would continue keeping the song playing

which is what mask maker means by that

[stray fog]

Im adding this to my headcanons

[lean temple]

It isn't that they declared themselves leaders, they gave them the rule

[spark valve]

the weavers didn't leave they died

[frosty gate]

I want to be very clear about that Needolin Dialogue, "Weaving ones beckon" is 100% the Weavers, and lets also add that these were the only ones in the game that were recruited directly by weavers

[stray fog]

The only nameless town bug we see has a very different body type compared to the conductors

[frosty gate]

True, mb

[lean temple]

Even Grindle calls them "horrid whisperers" or something

[frosty gate]

That doesn't mean they tried to personally recruit him, it just means he didn't like them

[frosty gate]

You mean the corpse?

[stray fog]

Yes

Ig there's no reason to assume that everyone in the nameless town was the same type of bug

[frosty gate]

We see different corpses on the way up, these were probably on their way down

Plus, we still don't know how the Conductors look below the mantle

[stray fog]

Are those roots growing on their corpses 🤔

Or are they tied down

[viscid ridge]

Roots

[frosty gate]

Roots, they've been dead for a long time

[frosty gate]

They could be three skarrs in a trenchcoat for all i know

Wish we could see them

[frosty gate]

That doesn't mean they tried to personally recruit him, it just means he didn't like them (I replied to the wrong person)

[lean temple]

I know I meant it in like that's a reputation they garnered