sk-lore

[copper fiber]

if groal was an arthropod what arthropod would they be

[wide dew]

driftlin

[quartz spruce]

Maybe in a future Hollow Knight game we'll fight a literal foot

[stray fog]

Is he not a frog?

He lives in a swamp and jumps

[copper fiber]

they are a frog

[quartz spruce]

No, too many legs. Just frog inspired

[opaque pier]

Meeeh i kinda see the similarity but if the name is that different idk

[stray fog]

Good enough ig

[copper fiber]

well by this logic the mantis lords aren’t mantises, too few legs

[bleak ridge]

Were the conductors evil or something? The entirety of whiteward is pretty incriminating against them

[quartz spruce]

It would be funny if for the third Hollow Knight game we'll finally play the actual Hollow Knight. And the game is scaled up to be even larger because he's a big boi

[stray fog]

Legs are a liberty they can take in their stylized versions of insects

[copper fiber]

we’re not very sure which things the conductors did and which things the weavers did

[quartz spruce]

Which means even bigger enemies. If any bug can take on actual vertebrates, it's probably him

[copper fiber]

but both of them were pretty evil

[bleak ridge]

But the psalm cylinder confirms that the conductors or atleast conductor mizzelo experimented with silk

[copper fiber]

the size of the craws makes sense if hornet is about tarantula sized

[quartz spruce]

I dunno, she seems smaller than the mantids. So THK would be more Tarantula sized I think.

[copper fiber]

I think the craws as crow-like birds that can be as small as bee hummingbirds

[stray fog]

Shes smaller than a queen bee (vespa) and a queen ant

So not a tarantula

[copper fiber]

you know what would be funny
if an area took place in a human-made structure and you saw everything from a bug’s point of view
that would shatter our understanding of the hollow knight verse

[stray fog]

Pharloom is like 1 Minecraft block in size

[copper fiber]

it’s a lot bigger than that but still not very big for a human

it’d be about the size of a medium building

[quartz spruce]

Also craws are also called crawbugs in game and have bug abdomens. So probably not actually birds. Just bird inspired bugs.
Apparently there is a surface, so there's probably vertebrates up there.

[stray fog]

Wait yeah I underestimated an insects size

[quartz spruce]

What would an actual mole be like though

[stray fog]

In the silksong opening cutscene we see bird like creatures in the wastes

[quartz spruce]

Like, are they Hollow Knight's version of a tarrasque?

[copper fiber]

I still think bug just refers to “person considered similar enough to a civilised society” because even snails are considered bugs

greyroot is not a bug

[stray fog]

Bug = sapient and civilized
Beast = having some primal instinct

[copper fiber]

is white lady considered a bug

[stray fog]

And plants are separate

[quartz spruce]

Pretends to be bug though

[copper fiber]

oh yeah and the jellyfish which are not arthropods, molluscs or vertebrates

what even are they I forgot

[heavy gyro]

plankton

[fossil veldt]

cnidarians. They are the second life stage for polyps

[proven mural]

is it possible that bell eater had kids with bell beast

it’s just a theory

because like they had kids bell beast got mad and she ran away and bell eater got mad

idk

theories though

[whole holly]

are they in game?

[fossil veldt]

Back at Hollow Knight, I always thought "beast" was just the name Hallownest gave to the arachnids in deepnest, since arachnids aren't insects. But then in silksong we got things like the Beastfly, so maybe it's just referring to the aggressive, uncivilised nature

[fossil veldt]

don't think so, they're this thingy

[whole holly]

on yeah

[wide dew]

they seem like completely different species

[proven mural]

but like what else could make her have kids

we know shes the last of her kind

the bell eater is too

[fossil veldt]

bell beast might have laid her eggs before her mate died

[proven mural]

oh wait

yeah

that does work

because that mightve attracted the bell eater

[fossil veldt]

yeah, the bell eater always seemed to me like the bell beast's natural predator. I always kinda interpreted it as the bell beast fighting the bell eater to protect her babies

and cuz Hornet is fren now

[proven mural]

i thought that the journal said something about the natural predator thing

[abstract rivet]

On everybody’s soul (not my screenshot)

[fossil veldt]

I thought so too, but I just checked and it doesn't say anything about that

[proven mural]

the bell eater is such a weird species

at least to me

its shell is made of something so hard that cant be pierced

[fossil veldt]

sorry I live under a rock, what is that

[proven mural]

kinda like sports betting

[fossil veldt]

I think it reminds Hornet of the Garpedes form deepnest? Cuz she says they're like monsters from the tales of her youth

wait looking at them side by side they kinda look hella similar

[proven mural]

wait yeah

the garpedes look basically the same

[fossil veldt]

they even got the same four eyes

[proven mural]

and we know the garpedes were kind of going extinct

because of the fact that there were a few fossilized one

s

at least i think thats how it works

[fossil veldt]

bug evolution lore let's gooo

[inner torrent]

Yep

[whole holly]

guys do we see large ancient dead bugs in silksong like we see in hollow knight?

[silk dirge]

yes

you see quite a few in far fields

where sprintmaster is

[whole holly]

yeah

thanks guys

[silk dirge]

theres also the skull cave with the lava gauntlet

[lean temple]

Plenty

[proven mural]

to get the journal entry you needed to go to fossilized garped, obviously it could just be an extremely old one but considering the fact there were barely any throughout the whole map of hollownent (like 25 at most) it could be that they were dying little by little

its just to follow up with theory of bell eater being a garpede, since there was only one it was just a theory it could obviously just be that one traveled from hollownest the pharloom but it could always be wrong

theoryies

[whole holly]

we know Godseekers can Focus thoughts through their Crest, now that we know what crests are , would some crests give us focus abilities, kind of how Architect Crest gives us Craftbind ability, i wonder if we will ever obtain Godseeker Crest in DLC

[proven mural]

isnt hornet a God

[fervent sigil]

half i think

wyrm is a higher being

[proven mural]

she was in the hall of Gods

[whole holly]

partially yes

[past cypress]

Half god, half divinified

[past cypress]

Everyone was in the Hall of Gods

Vengefly King definitely isn't one

[whole holly]

Godseeker defines God in weird way, Massive Moss Charger is God

[past cypress]

Could be that God and Higher Being mean different things

[fervent sigil]

hall of god is like a list godseekers made of beings they think is "a god"

[lean temple]

Not the same kind of crest

[whole holly]

Spiral Focus (Shaman's Ability) and Crest Focus (Godseeker's Ability) interest me but we didn't get unique Ability with Shaman Crest unless you count White Hot energy from nail and Special Bind animation

[fervent sigil]

Its time for hornet to bind the fuck out of a random godseeker

[whole holly]

also yes

[whole holly]

oh, are we sure?

[lean temple]

A Focusing Crest is something on your head that helps you do focusing.

A Crest in Weaver terms is an imprint on your soul, relating to your identity

Very different things.

[fervent sigil]

God is worshipping an indvidual because you believe they created a specific something

like how godseekers think the god of thunder created thunder

correct me if im wrong

[lean temple]

Never stated

We know next to zero about the gods of thunder and rain

[whole holly]

okay, then, other than Godseeker's Crest, what crests do we see in Hollow Knight

[fervent sigil]

we know they worshipped them tho

[lean temple]

The crests on Kingsoul/Voidheart and the ones the soul sanctum uses for focusing

[whole holly]

yeah, i do remember Kingsoul and Void Heart but i don't remember where they are stated to have crests, and where/what is soul sanctum crest?

[fervent sigil]

im still trying to understand what a crest is, i know its like some sort of imprint of an individual

bound within

shit like that

[lean temple]

The soul sanctum bugs have those triplets on their foreheads, they're focusing crests. Kingsoul/Voidheart aren't stated to have them but that's concluded based on their appearance.

[whole holly]

yeah it is basically nature of Bug expressed in Soul imprint

[whole holly]

do we have source for Soul Sanctum one, where is it started/implies

[fervent sigil]

so hornet can also bind a soul sanctum bug

[lean temple]

It is implied since they were trying to find ways to improve their focusing

I believe since they have no normal affinity for soul, they need these crests to be able to focus

[whole holly]

oh yeah, i remember that

[whole holly]

maybe yes, dead one, like Soul Tyrant theoretically but his soul contains Soul of lot of other bugs

[lean temple]

Even volt twisters have them

[whole holly]

i was just thinking about them and how similar they are to Hornet's Silk Spell when equipping Volt Filament

[rain gate]

whiteward was probably meant to be a mirror of soul sanctum actually
bugs using Magic Substance to make them immortal

[fervent sigil]

silk

[whole holly]

yeah , it was more industrious with Warden/ Hospital vibes

[whole holly]

but they get such skill from eating Lumaflies only, weird

[lean temple]

Focusing crests

[whole holly]

thanks that clarifies it

[lean temple]

Where is that stated?

[whole holly]

Learned bug that adapted the teachings of the Soul Sanctum into a deadly fighting art. Attacks with bursts of electricity.

Supposedly lives on a diet of lumaflies and spends its entire life fighting in the arena or meditating in seclusion. An odd foe. - hunter's journal

[lean temple]

Oh I thought you meant voltvyrm lol

[whole holly]

...I feel them within me...
...Power...Light...Rage...
...Mind swells...Mind aches...

• Dream Nail Dialogue

[lean temple]

Well lumaflies have some strange connection with soul

And they can be charged

Charged Lumaflies

[whole holly]

yeah

[lean temple]

Something about static electricity

[fervent sigil]

its weird why the teachers archive has charged lumaflies

[lean temple]

Power source

[whole holly]

what is that Godseeker's Item?

[lean temple]

The weathered mask

[fervent sigil]

whos mask

[whole holly]

i wish it served purpose other than being piece of lore and a mask

[whole holly]

Godseeker's

[fervent sigil]

one of the godseekers yes

whats so interesting about this mask

[heavy gyro]

Does the TC interview confirm that the karak desertification was by the citadel and not GMS

[whole holly]

it has Focusing Crest

[fervent sigil]

and other seekers doesnt

go' it

[whole holly]

what other seeker's, what other seekers do you see?

do you mean other bugs?

[lean temple]

Well yeah the "main" Godseeker is the only one whose mask has a crest.

[whole holly]

i guess, and it can be passed down over time and their minds seem to be collective, Weathered Mask Hunter's Journal entry: "Strange mask from a godless land, passed down over time. The design suggests the wearer's thoughts were focused through the crest."

[radiant badger]

Finally started work on my pharloom future map, If you got any facts of the lore that could help me, its appreciated

[whole holly]

what Crests do you guys hope will get in DLC, i kind of Want Druid Crest most

[radiant badger]

Defenders crest

[whole holly]

Pharloom Bay is one of cut contents that may appear in Future

[radiant badger]

I already have a map of that

[whole holly]

wow, that's thought out actually

[whole holly]

what don't you have map of? are you making one of those maps that connect to hallownest?

[radiant badger]

Lmao i've been doing much more

[whole holly]

maybe connect Pharloom to Lands Serene, Blackbarrens, City of Steel and so on

[radiant badger]

Half of those i already have one the image

[whole holly]

Lands of Storm needs to be connected too

[radiant badger]

Gonna

[pale narwhal]

i cant see anything here

its so small

[severe vigil]

Shaw!

[lean temple]

Interested to see how it'll pan out

[lean temple]

Steelheart crest

[whole holly]

i agree,i believe it is most likely what we will get, if we get it

[lean temple]

Passed down over time implies there is a line of "leader" Godseekers. Now i wonder how long they have been around for

And could imply they cannot create new masks and must resort to hand-me-downs of the original

[whole holly]

there seems to be three, one Godseeker in waking world is wearing, one we get and one in dream realm godseeker

[stray fog]

Are the dream realm and physical one different?

[lean temple]

But aren't the waking world one amd dream one the same person?

[whole holly]

i am not sure, honestly

[stray fog]

I don't think its ever clarified

[lean temple]

I think so, since VGFocus interacting with her in Godhome corresponds to it seeping out of the physical one.

They are the same person.

[whole holly]

okay then but that still leaves two

[lean temple]

Who are?

[stray fog]

This

What do you think they'll do for the boss rush in silksong

Lore wise

Godseekers again?

[blissful harbor]

jump into the void to find seekers

[stray fog]

Wait that could actually happen

But that confirms that one of the etv endings is canon

[whole holly]

maybe expand needolin ability to incorporate Dreams, maybe reintroduce Godseekers, maybe introduce equivalent group

[blissful harbor]

well having them show up at all confirms or deconfrims it

[whole holly]

pretty much anything is possible for boss rush

[stray fog]

They could show up after the delicate flower ending. Maybe the flower somehow saved her

[blissful harbor]

they’ certifiably don’t have a physical body after EtV, so if they show up it’s conformation either way

[sinful nimbus]

LOST GODHOME

[whole holly]

i think they will introduce equivalent group, one that uses memories instead of dreams

[blissful harbor]

flower only poofed them after tendrils and void leaked out of her body

i think the body is gone ngl

[stray fog]

I hope they dont

They should keep things universal

[blissful harbor]

memories are dreams tho

[whole holly]

i mean Godseekers would be weird in Silksong, like really weird

[whole holly]

functionally yes

[stray fog]

True
Pharloom has 1 higher being

Hallownest had like 5

[whole holly]

yeah, plus Godseekers work with dreams/essence not memories/silk

[stray fog]

Tc could fix that somehow

By introducing some lore

[whole holly]

equivalent group or expanding needolin ability would fix it honestly, i prefer needolin ability myself

[blissful harbor]

the simplest answer is having hornet use elegy of the deep on herself

sekriro style, she’s her own godhome

[stray fog]

That might have less lore potential than godhome

[whole holly]

yeah, agreed

[stray fog]

Can she even do that? She had to ask the snail shamans to access red memory

[stray fog]

But that memory was also very distant / faint ig

[blissful harbor]

red memory was specifically to get the flower

[honest sun]

wait whats the equivalent of vengeful spirit of thk? one is vengeful spirit and the other is shade soul?

[blissful harbor]

which needed a bunch of power to get

[honest sun]

maybe vessels have different spells from eachother

[stray fog]

True

[stray fog]

Yeah

[whole holly]

unless shaman like group will make her access memory of bosses, Druid? nahh i don't even know, whoever it is needs to know elegy of deep

[stray fog]

The spells we get are from snail shamans

[honest sun]

how did she even got the flower if it was a memory

[blissful harbor]

WL magic

[stray fog]

Thk could have gotten different spells

[honest sun]

mmmmmm void tendrils

[blissful harbor]

and hornet fucking manifesting it with silk somehow, bullshit is what it is

[unique canopy]

Most of the spells you get in HK are from snails anyway, the only ones who share them in HK are your Shades. SK backs this up with Groal.

[stray fog]

Thats not a spell I think

That's just thk using their tentacles

Thk's teleportation could be a spell

[whole holly]

yeah, only confirmed Void spell (as in spell solely made of void) is shard shadow

[honest sun]

could tk do that aswell? maybe thk can do that because he has some kind of void heart

[stray fog]

In dnm, tk slaps the radiance with void tentacles

[blissful harbor]

void flavored soul teleport, like soul master and co uses

[honest sun]

but tk's shells gets obliterated, i guess he could do that with any other boss but he just didnt

or maybe didnt had the power to

[stray fog]

Yeah the only time we see the knight's tentacles is in their shade form

[honest sun]

maybe thk when teleports its justs like a shadow dash but we cant see him

[whole holly]

maybe Moss Druid Succeeds in making Moss heart and we use it with moss druids help to access boss fight memory

[stray fog]

Could be

[honest sun]

bosses sees us doing that when dashing too maybe

[stray fog]

Why moss hearts

[honest sun]

its just perspective

[whole holly]

Moss Druid is trying to create/brew moss heart because they sense other hearts beating, but who knows what hearts it might be

[blissful harbor]

it’s a teleport, dude completely vanished and appears in another spot with no momentum and phases in and out the same way

[honest sun]

if everybody has different spells then how thk does rune rage

maybe its just the same spell but from different soul usages

sinner does it with silk and thk with soul

[stray fog]

My theory is that the Weavers played a role in thk's training

The way you cast rune rage is by binding

And binding is like focusing

And thk's rune rage is their focus

[honest sun]

mmmmm idk, thk is older than hornet, right?

[stray fog]

Idk

Is that known

[honest sun]

i dont think hornet is in her prime form

as thk

[unique canopy]

Everybody doesn't have different spells, TK gets most of them from snails which presumably means those snails had similar spells, and of course Groal gets Vengeful Spirit. It's the source of those spells that's important, none of them are inherently known and have to be taught, so THK/PV's spells were just what they were taught, which wasn't by snails.

[stray fog]

Im talking about the pure Weavers of deepnest

Not hornet

[unique canopy]

Most people assume so because Hornet's conception was the condition for Herrah becoming a Dreamer, which meant the Hollow Knight plan had to at least have been in motion at the time.

[stray fog]

I think their ages are probably similar

[honest sun]

maaaaaybe pk knows many spells or weavers taught him

[stray fog]

Both were born during the vessel plan's execution

[honest sun]

i still think thk is older

ooooor maybe they are similar in age but different psychcally

maybe hornet its just smoll

[unique canopy]

Given how ageless they both are, it's probably a case of like, 809 years vs. 807 years. Practically irrelevant by the time the game starts, but THK is technically the older half-sibling.
And for that matter, so are the rest of the vessels including TK.

[honest sun]

and vessels grow large

[stray fog]

Agree

About the 809 and 807 part

[honest sun]

[stray fog]

#hk-lore message
@lean temple

Why did it destroy the shade lord, but it couldn't handle a 7th void tendril in silksong

[honest sun]

wait acording to that then hornet its the youngest? in an order of THK, vessels/tk and then hornet

[stray fog]

All vessels are of the same age

[unique canopy]

Hornet with the most ridiculous version of youngest child syndrome in all of fiction, casually murdering her half-siblings

[honest sun]

oh right

[stray fog]

Why does that vessel look like it was stabbed with its own nail though 😭

I just noticed that

[unique canopy]

Got parried, was a filthy casual

[honest sun]

it was either weak and hornet took is nail and stab it or

[blissful harbor]

the implication is hornet killed it

[honest sun]

why tho many vessels didnt respawn in a bench like us, they didnt know they could sit

[honest sun]

shes caught........ red handed

[stray fog]

Respawning is probably not canon

[lean temple]

1. Because it did a lot of work in silksong and it can only push back so much void
2. The shadelord was not fully formed yet

[stray fog]

In fact, vessels leave behind a shade when they die

They don't respawn

[unique canopy]

Enough of a will to move around, but they didn't form any regrets?
TK is explicitly special by virtue of having travelled outside of Hallownest and then returned.

[honest sun]

that makes sense

maybe those were void enough to not leave any regret????

[unique canopy]

Maybe by virtue of having seen the outside world, TK developed enough regrets for the state of Hallownest that they returned and are intent on fixing things, which is what manifests the Shade when you die.

[quartz spruce]

So why is Lace humanoid? From a design perspective I kind of see why; it's a hint that she's an unnatural creation made from silk, and her somewhat doll like apparently ties into that. But from a lore perspective, why a humanoid and not an arachnid like the Weavers? How does GMS even know what a humanoid looks like?
The existence of a humanoid construct implies the existence of humanoids in setting. Which implies that GMS has been to the surface and saw some things.

[pliant crag]

Because gms made her in her own image

[blissful harbor]

i mean granny silk herself is humanoid

lace is based off her

[quartz spruce]

She's not though. She has 8 limbs. She just hides 6 of them.

GMS is a spider, not a humanoid

[frigid belfry]

huh? Gems made lace similar to her simply because she wanted a daughter

[blissful harbor]

she can manifest 8 limbs, and saying she’s not humanoid is

look at her

[pliant crag]

Maybe but it's possible she hides them for a reason

[unique canopy]

Bipeds use less energy for movement, which is why humans didn't evolve from 6+ legged species

[frigid belfry]

Her looking like gas does not equal humans existing lmao

[unique canopy]

Logically, being bipedal means more silk efficiency to keep her alive

[pliant crag]

Humans ARE cannon in hk though, dream nail the giant moth statues

[blissful harbor]

they are explicitly from another world

[frigid belfry]

??.

That’s just backer content and an Easter egg

[pliant crag]

It's funny to think it's cannon though

[frigid belfry]

Because there’s a menu in hk doesn’t mean hornet is am omnipotent God who accesses the real world

[pliant crag]

I guess lol

Do you guys think the "surface" is the real surface? If so why are there no stars? Mr. Mushroom mentioned the moon once or twice

[quartz spruce]

Sort of, but not to the same extent Lace is. Once you add the other 6 limbs GMS really does look more like a spider. She even has the bulbous abdomen and thin waist that some species have.
I don't think I've seen Lace manifest another 4 limbs.

[pliant crag]

But why would she hide them then, and where? It's safe to say she preerred bipedal arms for a reason

[blissful harbor]

yea she has spider qualities
she’s the spider Hb, but she’s even more humanoid than lace imo, she has long flowing hair, slender body and human fingers

[honest sun]

yeah,,,,,, her own image.............

[blissful harbor]

Lace looks like her normal form, she was mad win her imagine
that’s like saying grimmchuld doesn’t look like grimm cause he can puff up into a ballon or grow extra legs

[pliant crag]

She wanted lace to be subservient forever, maybe she only gave her 2 arms as a mean of superiority

[honest sun]

shes aa silk spoil

[blissful harbor]

she’s a god made of silk
i don’t think she has to hide them she can just manifest them whenever

[honest sun]

why he doesnt tells us about the surface tho

[quartz spruce]

Maybe 8 limbs were too expensive..
Budget cuts suck.

[pliant crag]

Because he's mr mushroom

[honest sun]

shes a god she can do things whenever she wants dude dont question mommyy silk

[honest sun]

i hate him then

[pliant crag]

Real question is why do gms and the radiance have spears/spikes for legs

[quartz spruce]

Because it looks cool

Artists gonna art

[honest sun]

you want them to beat us up throwing hands?

[pliant crag]

Yes

[honest sun]

ok gms actually uses her hand but

yknow

[pliant crag]

She could use her thighs on me

If she had any

[lilac hedge]

timeout

now

[blissful harbor]

silks legs are scissors, it fits
Rad is fucking weird

[pliant crag]

Wait they're scissors?

[opaque pier]

Hollow knight fans try not to sexualize everything challenge level: impossible

[honest sun]

they both if they want they would just blow you up and end it already

[blissful harbor]

look at them

[quartz spruce]

Yeah, they are scissor blades. Like the ones she summons

[pliant crag]

I only see one balde though

Blade

[honest sun]

yeah..... get guillotined

[quartz spruce]

They aren't actually her legs. More like...fashion accessories. For drip

[pliant crag]

How did she materialise them then?

[blissful harbor]

the fuck is this sprite lmao
don’t think i’ve ever seen it

[pliant crag]

Rad could have used essence but gms is just soul

[honest sun]

its part of her i guess

[blissful harbor]

same way she did herself, just popped up

[pliant crag]

It's just one of her attacks overlapping the sprite

[honest sun]

she cant even close her legs dude what you talking about

literally

[pliant crag]

I think the extra arms are made from silk... it just makes sense

Unless she got them behind her back the whole fight

[edgy nebula]

cant wait for tc to give us the lion village (Full of lions)

[quartz spruce]

I mean, wouldn't her entire body be made from silk? She is the source of all silk. Her hair is silk too. If you bind her you pretty much consume her

[honest sun]

i think mommy silk its not MADE of silk, but she is kinda solid and PRODUCES and has silk inside her

[pliant crag]

Yeah she's even dressed in it

Her skin is black

[frigid belfry]

Silk can do fucking anything in this universe so I wouldn’t question it

Need God flower? Silk

Need immortality? Silk

Need literally anything?

Silk

[blissful harbor]

she’s made of silk

[honest sun]

oh

[quartz spruce]

She doesn't even have "hands" by the looks of it. They are more like 3 fingered claws. Like most characters.

[honest sun]

silksong actually explains why that is a bad idea

[honest sun]

she uses her hands

[quartz spruce]

To be fair, that's mostly because of GMS. No GMS, no haunting, no risk of being an eternal slave to an angry goddess.

[honest sun]

angry mommy

[quartz spruce]

That's how most characters grab you though.

Technically, most characters in hollow knight have "hands", because how else are they going to grab things?

[blissful harbor]

hair

like a normal bug

unless the character is relatively large or wielding a larger weapon, most things have nubs

[quartz spruce]

Isn't that just because they have very small fingers due to the art style?

[blissful harbor]

or they just don’t have any

[quartz spruce]

Larger enemies do seem to have visible claws with which they grab things

[honest sun]

paws

[quartz spruce]

Last Judge for example has 3 fingers.

[blissful harbor]

relatively large character

[twin dragon]

dawg that's soul as a whole

[honest sun]

relatively..........

[blissful harbor]

bro got his hands chopped off it’s ok

[edgy nebula]

quirrel has fingers, hornet doesnt and theyre the same size, tc is just inconsistent

and then you have seth/sharpe who have weird hooks

[quartz spruce]

I guess the enemy has to be at least Last Judge size for the artist to bother drawing fingers.

[quartz spruce]

Or just that

[wheat locust]

whats the topic?

characters having hands?

[quartz spruce]

Why Lace doesn't look like a bug

[honest sun]

still not big

[wintry compass]

I feel like the answer is that every character has hands, it's just that the style is that they aren't drawn necessarily

[solemn hinge]

She isn’t one

[honest sun]

she is not

[wheat locust]

Neither does Phantom though, they were made directly by GMS out of silk

they literally aren't bugs and probably wouldn't look like bugs

[honest sun]

some doesnt need and some just need hands its just that

[wintry compass]

doesn't hornet mention 'strength in claw' in the red memory?

even though she doesn't have fingers

[solemn hinge]

Kinda like how most characters aren’t drawn with mouths, but ones like Grimm for example can do this , so it’s safe to assume most characters have them

[honest sun]

thk screaming mouth

[wheat locust]

I think most have hands, but they don't draw them cuz they just don't

some wouldn't have hands like the flying mantis dudes

[quartz spruce]

I know, she's a silk construct, but you'd think they would still look like bugs. Like how Weavers still have traits that most inhabitants have and how the cogwork constructs look like metal bugs.

[edgy nebula]

im eally excited tc confirmed lion village, sharpe, and the two backer dungeons as coming eventually

[blissful harbor]

weavers were made from existing bugs though

[wintry compass]

i mean silk's a higher being, maybe she made something up

[quartz spruce]

Which lore wise, implies that she was based on something else that's not bug.

[honest sun]

pharlids dont have fingers neither,,,,,

[wintry compass]

silk herself doesn't really look too much like a bug either

[wheat locust]

Well the metal bugs were made and designed by Weavers and other inhabitants of the Citadel
Weavers were evolved from a bug
While Phantom and Lace are entirely unrelated to bugs and were hand made by GMS herself

[blissful harbor]

amazing observation

[solemn hinge]

Hive Knight is another example of this

[wheat locust]

Lore implies she made it herself in an image she had in her mind, maybe even in her own image

[honest sun]

shes just a woman-looking-god, i dont see hornet questioning gms's psyche

[quartz spruce]

Yeah, but wouldn't Phantom and Lace be more spider like, or manifest spider traits like GMS does?

[honest sun]

neither karmelita's

[wintry compass]

yeah, I guess she may have made lace and phantom in her own image, just vauely woman-looking?

[wheat locust]

No? They are made of Silk, they can't produce Silk and are not related to Spiders
GMS isn't even related to a spider and seesm to just be her own thing. Weavers were able to have spider-like abilities due to the fact that they were evolved directly from a spider-like thing

[honest sun]

yeah..... its so according to her image...........

lets go pharloom butts

[wintry compass]

hips...

pixar mom core

[edgy nebula]

lowkey why does lace even have the weird puffy legs

[solemn hinge]

Yeah, iirc the only thing of significance about Weaver Silk vs normal (I suppose like, Pharlid) silk is that it’s infused with Soul or smth

[honest sun]

ooooor maybe she has a fat......

a fat

[ornate pier]

It's because. Poofy fencer pants

[edgy nebula]

sire that is a child...

[edgy nebula]

makes sense actually yeah

[wheat locust]

Yeah I think thats the case

[honest sun]

poofy silk pants

thats it

[quartz spruce]

Maybe the image GMS had was just her with actual legs.

[honest sun]

the lion doesnt concern,,,

[wintry compass]

I wouldn't imagine having a single fused leg is very fun

permanent flamingo mode

[ornate pier]

Ok bro

[honest sun]

and a fat......

[solemn hinge]

She can fly but walking is pretty fun ngl

[honest sun]

if gms wanted she maybe can manifest legs and walk

[ornate pier]

Could gms hop around on it

[honest sun]

but she can fly so why not

[wintry compass]

float I suppose

[wheat locust]

I mean she can fly so, why not flip over and walk on your hands

[quartz spruce]

Like, she saw a cover with a human model on it or a human doll or whatever and thought "man, I wish I had a pair of those, Ima go made a silk clone of me with them."

[wintry compass]

I guess she wouldn't be bound by the laws of physics enough

[honest sun]

she cant get those beautiful hands dirty

[wintry compass]

gms is lowkey gender goals smh

[honest sun]

shes a god dont fuvcking question it

[wheat locust]

She got all the waters of Karak to clean them though

[wintry compass]

average unrealistic transfem gender goals

[floral venture]

😭

Y'all

This is the lore channel

[quartz spruce]

We do see her grow more limbs. I guess she could just sprout some a bit lower? Or maybe it's too awkward when your lower half is a big ball.

[wintry compass]

how gms walks is ESSENTIAL to the lore /j

[honest sun]

HER FAT AHH ID WIDER THAN HER SHOULDERS DUDE AS WELL AS LACE, gms genes peak

[wintry compass]

she grows what

[wheat locust]

what 😭

where

[pliant crag]

how gms walks is ESSENTIAL to the lore /s

[wheat locust]

She never does that

[blissful harbor]

her grab attack

[quartz spruce]

Get hit by her web attack

[honest sun]

her big ahh is important too

[floral venture]

That's like wondering how white lady got to queen's garden 🥀

[solemn hinge]

She does sprout more limbs but I don’t think she is growing them

Just simply like… unhiding them

[pliant crag]

Greyroot can move y'know

[wheat locust]

She most likely used to be able to wal;k, there

[honest sun]

walking

[wintry compass]

maybe she burrowed under

[honest sun]

she walked and then rooted there

simple

[wheat locust]

Either way, I'd say she could spin new limbs

[solemn hinge]

Perhaps

[pliant crag]

What would she look like with legs tho?

[wheat locust]

exactly

[wintry compass]

but where does she get new limbs??

[pliant crag]

Soul magic

[wheat locust]

shes made of Silk right?

[quartz spruce]

There's a cut scene where she just suddenly pops out like another 6 limbs and beats the hell out of you, taking 3 masks of health. Hence why I think she's a spider. Hell, in Weaver Queen after you eat her soul you start getting new limbs too.

[solemn hinge]

GMS? I don’t believe so…? Maybe…?

[wheat locust]

If she is then she could 100% build upon herself

[floral venture]

Greyroot ain't massive

[wintry compass]

Silk is Silkier than before!

[ornate pier]

How does gms exist a being of pure soul
And where do the metal needles come from

[floral venture]

Gms is pale, and the source of silk. Not silk herself

[blissful harbor]

she is

[floral venture]

With what legs 💔

[solemn hinge]

I dunno if GMS is made of Silk herself

[wheat locust]

but like at the end of the game she disipates into Silk when you bind her

[blissful harbor]

same way Rad exists as a being of pure essence

[wheat locust]

like strand by strand

[blissful harbor]

as for the legs, who knows just came with her

[pliant crag]

Maybe the whit lady grew before they placed the seal on her?

[honest sun]

like

[wintry compass]

well, radiance is made of essence, so maybe gms is made of silk

[solemn hinge]

Technically she’s a being made of smth SIMILAR to essence but yeah

[honest sun]

SHE HAD LEGS AND WALKED TO THERE LIKE THE PK WOULDVE AND ROOTED THERE

[blissful harbor]

seems pretty much silk all the way down

[solemn hinge]

Perhaps

[wintry compass]

same thought, lol

[quartz spruce]

Yeah she is. When you bind her she starts dissolving and merges with your silk.

[solemn hinge]

Got it, interesting

[pliant crag]

I think that's more just an effect of binding in general

[wheat locust]

she is only similar, not exactly

[blissful harbor]

same difference

it’s functionally essence

[pliant crag]

Her body is composed of essence but the light isn't

[blissful harbor]

just brighter

god essence ™

[wet shadow]

We don't need to worry about the needles

[pliant crag]

Makes me wonder if all dream higher beings are the same but they just take on different forms

[wintry compass]

also, I have been wondering this for a while, but what eaxctly was white lady's wish in the red memory?
I don't think it's related to the vessels but to hornet

to make a better world?

is that the wish?

[lean temple]

Essence is fragments of light

[honest sun]

so if weavers sing to keep gms slep then............ you could say its like a *silksong...........

[wintry compass]

also what does 'you may think us harsh' relate to? is it to a raising hornet harshly? or to the vessels?

[wet shadow]

I thought essence was dream material

[pliant crag]

Silklullaby

[solemn hinge]

Can someone pull up the dialogue where it’s said that Radiance is made of stuff only similar to Essence?

[lean temple]

It is

[solemn hinge]

Oh nvm I found it

[pliant crag]

The nefarious 1 billion dead children:

[wintry compass]

also why does essence not appear in silksong even when we enter memory

[floral venture]

I don't think that means she is silk, even then

[wet shadow]

Is it light and dreams at the same time?

[blissful harbor]

/npcs quest name:Seer category:Bringing Essence dialogue:Returning with 2400 Essence

[wintry compass]

I don't feel like that's what she is referring to though

[blissful harbor]

wtf bot

[pliant crag]

Because hornet is cocooning that dream so she can enter

[honest sun]

shes actually sad for the trillion of dead babies i think

[pliant crag]

At least thats my theory

[random harbor]

Seer - Bringing Essence - Returning with 2400 Essence

So much Essence... So bright.... You truly are the Wielder my tribe so long has dreamed of.
The folk of my tribe were born from a light. Light similar to Essence, similar to that powerful blade, though much brighter still.
They were content to bask in that light and honoured it... for a time.
But another light appeared in our world... A wyrm that took the form of a king.
How fickle my ancestors must have been. They forsook the light that spawned them. Turned their backs to it... Forgot it even.
And so this kingdom was born from that betrayal. But the memories of that ancient light still lingered, hush whispers of faith... Until all of Hallownest began to dream of that forgotten light.
Ah, but what's done is done. And so am I. The Wielder has at last appeared and I've held the memories of my tribe for long enough. It is time for us to be forgotten too.
Don't remember us, Wielder. Don't honour us. We do not deserve it...
Aahh... I'm sorry...
Light... Radiance...
I... remember you.

@grimpooper23 used /npcs quest name: Seer category: Bringing Essence dialogue: Returning with 2400 Essence

[wintry compass]

cocooning?

[solemn hinge]

“The folk of my tribe were born from a light. Light similar to Essence, similar to that powerful blade, though much brighter still.” Is the important part

[pliant crag]

I know but if you knew anyone who did it you would think them harsh no?

[honest sun]

say cocooing but change coc with g

[pliant crag]

Typo

[blissful harbor]

it’s functionally essence
behaves like essence, gives her power of all other essence
yes it’s brighter but like saying “oh it’s not essence it’s essence doesn’t really help anything

[honest sun]

she cant be mad to her lovely husband so she just accepts the dead children

[wintry compass]

but I think the harshness here refers specifically to her? not to the vessels

[solemn hinge]

Yeah yeah I’m being pedantic I know

[pliant crag]

I think the pk also felt shame for the entire thing

[wintry compass]

still didn't get what you mean

[wintry compass]

yes, that I think so too

even WL

[solemn hinge]

He definitely did, as shown by uhhh

[wintry compass]

lore tablet outside abyss

[random harbor]

Lore Tablet: Ancient Basin - "Our pure Vessel has ascended"

Higher beings, these words are for you alone.
Our pure Vessel has ascended.
Beyond lies only the refuse and regret of its creation.
We shall enter that place no longer.

@_shush__ used /lore-tablets area: Ancient Basin name: "Our pure Vessel has ascended"

[solemn hinge]

And also uhhh

[random harbor]

Lore Tablet: White Palace - Path of Pain

To witness secrets sealed, one must endure the harshest punishment.

@_shush__ used /lore-tablets area: White Palace name: Path of Pain

[pliant crag]

My theory is that the memories take place in the dream world, but since hornet has the magical silk thing she can use it to materialise herself in the dream world rather than transport herself to it like the knight

[wintry compass]

that's true

[pliant crag]

Like how she uses the silk to create the fragile flower

[honest sun]

she wouldve ended like this if she didnt sealed herself

[wintry compass]

but there's no dreamcatchers

[pliant crag]

Maybe she's keeping them out?

[wintry compass]

in the background either

the symbols

is this the same dream realm?

[honest sun]

to the abyss you go throws vessels to the void

[wet shadow]

Maybe the essence in the background is just the dream nail reacting to being in a dream

[pliant crag]

Or maybe essence is just dream soul so she is absorbing it and instantly using it on her cocoon without realising

[blissful harbor]

no dream catchers cause hornet doesn’t have a way to see them
essence is invisible to TK too until it has a way to interact with the veil with dn (barring dreamers pulling up)
hornet is using soul to get to the dream realm, makes sense she doesn’t see dream catchers

[wheat locust]

back

whats the topic?

[wintry compass]

ohhhh

[solemn hinge]

Someone mentioned this before so I do wanna clarify that the Knight can still see Essence without having the Dream Nail yet, so… maybe?

[pliant crag]

You can get soul from dead dream ghosts

[wintry compass]

oh yeah, the hornet protector cutscene

[solemn hinge]

You can see it with the Dreamers showing up AND in the Lifeblood Abyss room

[blissful harbor]

both cases are due to outside forces causing the realm to interact

[solemn hinge]

Sure it is

[pliant crag]

It seems like it

[blissful harbor]

abyss creature dream nonsense and dreamers tryna fucking murk you early

[pliant crag]

Maybe the knight sees that because they are a physical being attempting to enter the dream plane

[wintry compass]

that's a fair explanation, but not too sure how convinced I am. but it seems like the only likely one

[solemn hinge]

Still, Hornet never gets access to seeing Essence while TK can without even getting Dream Nail

[pliant crag]

Whereas hornet is just silk projecting herself in

Holy typos

[blissful harbor]

nothing forces it on her like TK, a lot less gods in pharloom to even interact with the realm

[pliant crag]

I think fayforn could be a dream being like unn

Also there's mr mushroom

[solemn hinge]

Yes, but even when she is going to the Dream Realm herself, she can’t see it

[wet shadow]

Yeah pharloom's only got 1, that being gms, who is dormant the entire game

[wintry compass]

I think maybe it's the tool that allows entry to the dream realm? doesn't hornet see a lot of silk in the memories she enters?

[pliant crag]

I don't think pale beings can manipulate essence

[solemn hinge]

Unn isn’t a Dream Being, just a Higher Being with an affinity for Dreaming

[pliant crag]

It is stated in game she came from a dream and will return there with the mosskin one day

[solemn hinge]

Wasn’t it stated that she made the Mosskin from a Dream, not that?

[wheat locust]

No, its stated in the Game that the Mosskin and Greenpath came from her dream

Unn is a physical being, not of the Dream Realm

[wintry compass]

i mean given it's the dream realm, maybe it is very malleable to the perceptions of how they enter the realm

[blissful harbor]

she entered using soul, it doesn’t make a ton of sense but i can get behind since she was never aware of the veil in the first place, she can’t see it
i also love the idea the dream realm is subjective to those who view it and spider hornet sees it in cobwebs and shit

[pliant crag]

We see green essence in her room in godhome, godhome essence isn't green

[wintry compass]

so well, uhhh... cultural perceptions of the weavers vs the moth tribe?

[solemn hinge]

I think smth interesting is that Higher Beings usually have some sort of colored Essence when in the Dream Realm

[pliant crag]

Yeah, radiance has a pinkish white, pk has pure white, unn has green, lifeblood guy has blue, etc...

[wet shadow]

Could the essence showing up have something to do with the void in the knight reacting with the dream?

[pliant crag]

There was a cut void essence sprite

It's just a black dreamcatcher

[wet shadow]

Didn't know that

[wintry compass]

the pale king partly can do stuff with dreams

like moving the white palace into the dream realm

[blissful harbor]

WL gives hornet the flower and communicates with her through a memory

they can definitely manipulate essence

[wheat locust]

wait, I just realised he probably used some sort of manipulation of powerful Soul to move it

[wintry compass]

WL also knows when knight dream nails her

[solemn hinge]

Yep, and WL also has pure white I believe

[blissful harbor]

anyone with enough knowledge can

[wet shadow]

So do the snail shamen and seer

[wheat locust]

That doesn't have much to do with Essence manipulation

[wheat locust]

and midwife

[wintry compass]

that's true

[solemn hinge]

Or maybe not? Idk lmfao

[wheat locust]

I think it is pure white

[wet shadow]

Yeah it's white essence

[wintry compass]

essence not being in SK is really curious

it has to be deliberate

[blissful harbor]

it’s cause they wanted pharloom to be less magical

[solemn hinge]

Alr, but yeah I think there is some connection between HBs and Essence color maybe?

[wintry compass]

really?

how come

[wheat locust]

Probably

[wheat locust]

because it literally is

[solemn hinge]

It decidedly has a more mechanical vibe to it

[wheat locust]

They use Machines and sound manipulation, they don't utilise magic and those who do are deranged or fucking lazy

[wet shadow]

Pharloom's only got one higher being, who likely doesn't have the ability to interact with dreams as much bc she's asleep

[wintry compass]

that's true

didn't notice that

[blissful harbor]

pretty sure they actually mentioned in an early interview how they wanted pharloom to be more physical
i’ll try and find it

[wet shadow]

Also there are no lingering dreams around pharloom because a good portion of the bugs got turned into silk flies in whiteward and shoved into robots

[wintry compass]

yeah, and the themes are more physical too, I think
HK is about coming to terms with your past and
SK is about a lot more tangible things like organised religion, religious capitalism and motherhood, ig

maybe tangible is not the right word

but yeah

[blissful harbor]

fucking horrible quality but you get it

[ornate pier]

I mean I assumed there are but hornet just can't see them

Cause.

No dream nail

[wet shadow]

No freaky lifeblood god to pull you into one either

[solemn hinge]

I’m still iffy on TK only being able to see Essence because of DN but yeah

[ornate pier]

I mean that's how it's shown ingame

[blissful harbor]

i mean it’s literally what causes them in game to be able to see it

[wintry compass]

maybe... dream world is socially constructed 🤓

[solemn hinge]

I mean, other than the two times where it doesn’t

[wet shadow]

And no one in silksong is actively trying to force an entity into another plane of existence

[solemn hinge]

And I guess you can brush those off as being forced but idk man

[blissful harbor]

wym you guess
that’s what they are

both cases are an outside forces causing Tk to enter

[solemn hinge]

They are but I don’t think that would make TK see Essence if it normally couldn’t

[wintry compass]

but ig she means she's doubtful on that being the cause of being able to see that

[wet shadow]

Those being dreamers and freaky lifeblood beast

[blissful harbor]

what makes you think that
it literally normally cant

[wintry compass]

this is interesting

[solemn hinge]

I don’t know maybe the two times it does

[blissful harbor]

ghosts don’t exist until nail, dream roots are inactive

[blissful harbor]

did i just enter a fucking time loop

[wintry compass]

I wondered what made them decide to have the random bullshit go weapons, but this makes a lot of sense

[solemn hinge]

I’m just saying maybe they have limited access to it by default

[sharp glade]

why do the stilkin and the pinstresses look similar? could they be related?

[wintry compass]

the spells are also more physical, like spears, threads, the most magical being rune rage

[solemn hinge]

I’m not saying that your thing is wrong but I don’t know if it’s necessarily right either

[wet shadow]

It's soul magic enforced upon physical objects thus creating a spell(minus rune rage)

[solemn hinge]

Pale Nails I think would also be excluded from that?

Not sure tho

[wintry compass]

also what the fuck are 'glowy orb things'

[wet shadow]

Yeah that too

[solemn hinge]

Unless Hornet makes the Nails with Silk, I can’t rlly remember the animation for it

[wintry compass]

yeah, but you get that from GMS ig

[wet shadow]

It makes sense that you'd get a purely magic spell from gms, but why first sinner?

[wintry compass]

the weavers could cast runes from silk

they developed most of the seals we see in HK

[blissful harbor]

weavers were known for their magic

[wet shadow]

Makes sense

Is first sinners fight in a memory or in the physical world?

[wintry compass]

memory

you wake up rather than die

[wet shadow]

I thought it was physical because you still lose shards unlike in every other memory fight

[wintry compass]

huh didnt know that

[wet shadow]

Plus first sinner could have just beat you within an inch of your life and then healed you

[blissful harbor]

trying to use an item gives you the “cant use an item in a memory” prompt

so like, game treats it as a memory

[wintry compass]

why does she fight you though

[blissful harbor]

she’s mad

gotta get that last lil anger out before binding yourself to this weird ass hybrid who stormed your grave

[wintry compass]

and why is she the only weaver spire or whatever they are called, that fights you

[wet shadow]

I saw it as a test of strength

[wintry compass]

that's kinda what I thought too but I wanted to know if I was making that up

[pliant crag]

She is testing you

[twin dragon]

the rest dont even gaf that hornet eats them😭

I mean they probably sealed themselves in those positions for that one purpose

[twin dragon]

The knight and zote look similar, therefore zote is a vessel

[grand inlet]

Testing us just to give us the worst silk skill in the game ✌️

[stray fog]

Their fighting style is also similar

[sterile drum]

Hey, I just joined the server recently because I need to rant about something that has triggered and kept me up awake at night. Its about Phantom. Or rather her exact relationship to GMS and Lace.
People talk about how she is made from Silk and Lace and her see each other as sisters
And conveniently ignore one massive detail that throws everything off: Why the heck is she running the Citadels Fume Organ?
Everyone seems to assume that she was created by GMS the same way Lace was and then abandoned/Send away to run the Fume Organ. But here is the part where things fall aparat for me. WHY exactly would GMS do that? Send her own daughter to operate a key part of the citadel I mean. The citadel whose entire purpose it is to keep GMS asleep and contained. A sleep that GMS wants to desperately wake from. It makes no sense. If anything (and if she had that level of control over her daughters) she'd send her to dismantle the exhaust and any other part of the citadel Phantom could get her hands on. Then there is also the needolin location. The glas tank, which seems to have at times contained Phantom. Why would there be a convenient tank like that? I doubt GMS organised it for her, she doesnt seem to have that level of control over the haunted bugs. They usually just mindlessly continue doing, what they were doing when they were uninfected.

So this has been bugging me for ages and I came with two possible theories. And one of those makes a lot more sense to me than the other. The theory is simple: while Lace and Phantom are both silk beings and at least Lace considers Phantom a sister, they werent created under the same circumstance. The only reason I can think why Phantom is where she is, is because unlike Lace she wasnt created by GMS intentionally. She must have been created by the conductors using GMS. The citadel bugs already used silk for everything: medicine, running their automatons, enhancing their soldiers. Why wouldnt they try to create a Silk being? And when they were disappointed with teh results, they send Phantom downstairs to the most reclusive corner of the citadel. Thats why she runs the organ (on their orders, which would make a whole lot more sense than on GMS's orders), thats why she has the tank and it would even explain why she uses a mask: a tradition only practiced by bugs. Lace for example does not use a mask.
Then eventually Lace finds her, recognises her as a another Silk life form and considers her a sister. And sure the needolin dialogue uses the term "We", but this could just as well be Lace seeing the desolate state her sister is in and projecting her own plight and fears onto her in that moment. We never even know what Phantom thinks about lace or GMS etc. We only know she preferred a death in battle over the slow decay she was going through.

[blissful harbor]

the tank dialogue specifically says “she spun us to fade” though
idk how that would fit

[sterile drum]

projecting her own plight and fears onto her in that moment

just because Lace says that doesnt mean that this defacto was how Phantom was created.

Lace might not even know how exactly Phantom came to be.
In that scene Phantom might not even be responsive

I can wrangle with that a whole lot more than the asinine idea that GMS send Phantom to run the organ

additionally its never explored why GMS would abandon Phantom to begin with. She loves Lace. More than anything. Despite her being frail (reference: the silk heart dream dialogue after Lace 2)

so what could Phantom have done to warrant this treatment?

There are more holes in this narrative, than there were in me after fighting Lace 3.

[lyric widget]

yeah you have some good arguments. personally I do think it's pretty undeniable that it was Grand Mother Silk who created Phantom, but it's mostly that it's unclear when exactly she did this. I don't think Grand Mother Silk sent Phantom to the Exhaust Organ either, this doesn't make a lot of sense. it's possible that Phantom was created while the Citadel was still functional, Grand Mother Silk has a certain awareness and power even while being asleep. Lace was made even though she was still sleeping as well. so I guess to me it's possible that Phantom was created very early and then the Citadel caste sent them to the Exhaust Organ

[brisk oriole]

That is an interesting theory however I am not sure that the Conductors had that level of power I think that silk flies may be the height of what they can do.

[sterile drum]

the core automatons run on Silk. And the second Sentinel does too and that things is hella advanced. I dont think its impossible for them to at least try. And clearly the endresult was not to their liking (assuming we stay within the context of my theory)

[brisk oriole]

That's true

However phantom's mask could also be an explanation. If the citadel caste had a mask made for phantom they could have over-written phantom's identity and thus could control phantom. This could have happened after gms was put to sleep.

[sterile drum]

that is true

that fits in with what Sumwan suggested

and has precedence in HK lore

[brisk oriole]

Yeah take this quote from mask maker. To change a face; to conceal it fully within another... A powerful protection that is, but one with sad consequence.
The original mind is destroyed, though those of striking will may still retain a sliver of that concealed self.

[sterile drum]

only minor downside to that idea is that when you meet her for the first time she has her mask off next to her
But it is possible that the effect persists even when the mask is temporarily removed
Then again the Knights shade was attacking the knight every time it was freed from its mask (cause you died)

[lapis creek]

i don't think it's a huge issue that phantom works for the citadel, it makes sense for her to want to contain gms especially since lace also hates her

we don't really need the mask to explain why she would work with the citadel if they have this common interest

[brisk oriole]

True

[lapis creek]

also yeah she seems to remove it somewhat often

[brisk oriole]

I mean gms did create phantom and phantom is dying so it would make sense

[sterile drum]

that, funnily enough is my second theory I mentioned at the start of my post.
But also it feels to me like things fall into place better, with the other theory.
If she was working the organ to contain Silk, then that clashes with her desire to die a good death in battle. If she truly wants to make sure GMS doesnt wake, then she can not afford to die. She would have to keep working as long as she can.
Also Lace never shows any real attempt of rebellion on that level and we know she despises her Mother. So why isnt Lace doing something similar? or am I missing something tehre. I dont really remember her early game dialogue

[lapis creek]

i think it's close enough that lace drags gms into the abyss

[sterile drum]

to be fair I looked through Laces dialogue and needoline thoughts and it paints the picture that Lace thinks GMS cant be challenged.

so I think that part is void

[lapis creek]

If she was working the organ to contain Silk, then that clashes with her desire to die a good death in battle. If she truly wants to make sure GMS doesnt wake, then she can not afford to die. She would have to keep working as long as she can.
a solution to this could be that, as long as she is alive, she wants to stop gms, but she doesn't really care about the longevity of the citadel if she is dead

i think she was created intentionally by gms because we have no evidence that the conductors could accomplish something like this by controlling her, and then she decided to work with them and this is the task she ended up assigned to

[sterile drum]

but that is another thing
Phantom is powerful. Very much so. The conductors couldnt think of a better use than have her operate the organ? And Phantom would agree to that? There would have to be something better for her to do in that scenario, right?

[spark valve]

Worth noting whoever was sending her the silk spools in the exhaust organ would have leverage

[lapis creek]

also true!

[brisk oriole]

Yeah good point

[inner torrent]

Damn, damn, famn

Has someone seen the released beta maps?

Bellheart treatment was so unfair

[lapis creek]

another thought i had was that if they need the weavers to be considered divine in order to run the place, it makes sense that you would shove gms' actual daughters in a far corner where nobody sees them

[lapis creek]

she's not that powerful

last judge is similar and they have her guard a door

[floral venture]

She's powerful enough to challenge Hornet whilst severely weakened

[sterile drum]

more powerful than any bug they had available. Like what could possibly stand up to her that the Conductors have available? The sentinels maybe

but I cant think of much more than that

[lapis creek]

where would you have put her if you were in charge

how many other talented organ players do you know

[floral venture]

😭

[inner torrent]

I think phantom and Lace just don't make much sense lorewise

Probably due to the extreme Lore changes during the creation of silksong

[marsh sky]

GMS saw phantom playing the piano well and sent her to ts 💔

[inner torrent]

Punishing the teathre kid

[marsh sky]

Phantom literally is the embodiment of the forgotten middle child

[inner torrent]

Which is funny because she probably IS the middle child

[sterile drum]

anyway, Im through. I think I made my point. It drove/Drives me utterly mad that no one ever even tries to adress that point at all

on another note

what do you people think was the exact purpose for which Hornet and other weaver offspring were weavernapped to Pharloom?

[sinful nimbus]

More silk

Hornet: I have seen their Citadel and its state, and I have strong suspicion...
They hunt me for my nature. For the Silk produced within my shell. Not for themselves but for the one atop it all.

Lace and the haunting both require a lot of silk so her needing more production makes sense

[inner torrent]

Silk extraction prov

[fervent sigil]

i will inject silk into my bloodstream

[inner torrent]

And for hornet, it was most specifically to wake up gms

[sinful nimbus]

?

All silk she can get her hands on contributes to her awakening, Hornet isn't really unique

[inner torrent]

She is a demi god unlike other weavers

And in the beta ending we see gms changes her form after absorbing hornet

[lapis creek]

she needs to awaken before doing that

[silk dirge]

my theory is consuming a weaver is like obtaining a silk heart for her

so she can generate infinite silk but she cant do it all at once shes like hornet in that she can generate a certain amount that once used will regenerate again

[sinful nimbus]

GMS never absorbs Hornet?

Hornet absorbs GMS

[silk dirge]

where did i say she absorbs hornet

my wording might be unclear

[sinful nimbus]

Not talking to you

[silk dirge]

oh

[sinful nimbus]

I agree with your statement

[lapis creek]

yeah they referenced the cut ending

[silk dirge]

cool

[lapis creek]

i assume she is trying to absorb hornet in snared silk

[silk dirge]

yeah

[lapis creek]

which is why lace says she has denied gms hornet's silken strength

if that's even really lace

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not confident that would change her form like it does in the cut ending

[silk dirge]

imagine shade lord was in control the entire of act 3 and was just trolling hornet for fun

bro could have the lace projections to spread misinformation

[lapis creek]

agreed but it would give her a certain amount of power

[silk dirge]

thats totally something tk would do

known misinformation spreader

[lapis creek]

oh they did reference a form change

[silk dirge]

(literally cant speak so cant spread misinfo)

honestly i am curious what gms does after cut ending

[sinful nimbus]

Yes but probably in the same manner other weavers do

[silk dirge]

like congrats you woke up and absorbed hornet

now what

surely those few extra pilgrims you haunted will be useful

[lapis creek]

slabfly rehabilitation

[sinful nimbus]

❤️‍🩹

[silk dirge]

gms should take the form of the cat ear pilgrim

literal catperson

[foggy fractal]

these guys are so goofy

[silk dirge]

"these guys" literally only one in the game

i think my favorite pilgrim enemies are the OOH AAHs in the citadel

theyre cute and silly

[foggy fractal]

I'm speaking about those with the cat ears in general

[silk dirge]

oh lol

[ornate pier]

Do we know what caused the mass deaths of the citadel bugs?
It's probably not old age, cuz of the whiteward shit
And the haunting doesn't seem to kill, it seems to do infact the opposite

[silk dirge]

lace

she killed most of them

[ornate pier]

Oh yeah that makes sense

I swear bro I considered everyone other than lace

[silk dirge]

"One to keep far from she was, least for us mortal sorts. Look of a child and a mind to match, but her's been up wanderin' this Citadel longer'n most. Even in its long silence, way 'fore you came and roused its ire.
Might'a seen herself this place's protector, keepin' it clean and quiet as she did. Course quiet meant most crossin' her path found a painful end from her pin.
I'd be sayin' thanks for the slaying, but with all the other husks now awoken and enraged, a bug's chances ain't grown by much. "

[lilac hedge]

Why does bro have 4 legs

[foggy fractal]

which one ? this one ?

[silk dirge]

no

the pilby looking ones

[foggy fractal]

why not

[silk dirge]

these guys

[foggy fractal]

haha I killed them

[lilac hedge]

What if hes an undercover spider

[foggy fractal]

idk you tell me

[ornate pier]

The winged pilgrims sound so pathetic

And idk why

[fervent sigil]

the one in pilgrim rest is the saddest

[sterile jacinth]

What about those flying ones in high halls

Hmmmmmm

[ornate pier]

Which ones

[sterile jacinth]

Oh right uh the ones that can party

Parry

Not the ones that have Cogflies

[lilac plume]

Oh choir clapper

Jk

[inner torrent]

What the hell is that

[foggy fractal]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Pilgrim_Preacher

[inner torrent]

Ig you could be right, as in that ending she is directly binded, while there it seems like she is going to be unsilkened

[lilac hedge]

It has 4 legs its an spiderr

[inner torrent]

Oooh, it's an npc, not an enemy

[foggy fractal]

erm... spiders has 8 legs 🤓

[inner torrent]

That explains

I feel like belhart was hit too hard by the cuts of content

We literally know NOTHING, about bellhart, is just a random city that happens to be made of bells

Where did those bells came from? Why did pharloom make so mant bell? Why is there no explanation to this stuff

Even the sprites don't make sense

Why bellhart entry through greymoor has lights coming from it? There is literally nothing lightened up after it

[sinful nimbus]

atm it seems Bellways are just a way to carry up song to the Citadel to help keep GMS asleep

Bellhart is just a town fashioned out of the bellways or something idk

And tbf doors in HK have always been lit up

[unique canopy]

Bellhart was a town founded by pilgrims too scared to make it up to the citadel, so they decided to make it a stop for other pilgrims. Providing services to those other pilgrims allows them to delude themselves into thinking they're performing something of value, and not hiding out of fear.
According to the bell hermit at least.

[inner torrent]

I wish bellhart wasn't so reduced from it's original form, but ATP that's never happening as it's already a very established piece of the map

[pliant crag]

Are these 2 the same species? If so why aren't there any of the second ones in Hallownest?

[inner torrent]

Interesting

[inner torrent]

Oooh, is hard to say actually

[ornate pier]

Why would they be the same species?

[pliant crag]

Maybe the second one is what's under the shell?

[inner torrent]

Oh wait you meant same species?

No, most likely not

Just similar

[marble roost]

Hello, i'm new in this chat.

I not talk very much inglish.

[pliant crag]

Post memes in the memes channel

[marble roost]

I can draw

[pliant crag]

Also wth is the guy on the left

[pliant crag]

Post it in the art channel

[lilac hedge]

So sad when i got to act 3

[pliant crag]

Rip in pieces

[marble roost]

Ummm, What do they want me to draw?

[lilac hedge]

Fatass muckroach i guess

And sentient one too

[ornate pier]

Why would he be a muckroach

[lilac hedge]

Pointy nose idk

[pliant crag]

PK WAS IN PHARLOOM CONFIRMED?!?!?!?
SOMEONE CALL MOSSBAG

[ornate pier]

Cannibalism isn't unheard of for bugs though but like

[floral venture]

?

[pliant crag]

Why would he be sentient

[ornate pier]

If he was a muckroach he'd probably just be farmed like the others

[pliant crag]

PK gives bugs sentience

[ornate pier]

Oh and that

He has no reason to be sentient

[marble roost]

Draw pharloom,ok.

[floral venture]

It's not an ability exclusive to him

[pliant crag]

Yeah just wyrms in general

But the bugs of pharloom seem to have developed naturally

[ornate pier]

Probably

[pliant crag]

Maybe the PK just took advantage of the surface's mind-altering effects?

[ornate pier]

Definitely a lot of bugs had developed sentience before pk arrived in hk

[floral venture]

I personally think PK just lied

[ornate pier]

Like the mantises I'd assume

[pliant crag]

Mantises, spiders, mosskin (but those were made by unn), the shrumal clan (probably made by mr mushroom), etc...

[pliant crag]

I do think he lied about being the "only" kingdom

[floral venture]

I think bugs can gain sentience around some form of higher being in general, not just him or pale beings

[ornate pier]

What IS up with the shrumal clan and Mr mushroom

A creator link j think is unlikely

Because tc says he only really wants to observe stuff

[pliant crag]

Mr mushroom creates mushrooms near his lore tablets, some of these grew mobile and sentient

[ornate pier]

Hmmm

[pliant crag]

And mr mushroom probably didn't even notice

The question is why they left kingdom's edge

[floral venture]

For other falling kingdoms

[pliant crag]

I meant the clan, why did they travel to the wastes? And why are there other mushrooms there?

And I'm not even gonna mention the amblooms and fungoons

Prob just another species

Maybe there was another lore tablet in the wastes

My "s" key has got to be broken bro

[mossy cradle]

does it state exactly how long the time has been in hk/ss, like "years" or "2 months" or smt like that
if not then does ts mean that hornet could be like a month old in ss due to bug ages irl
-# i only post useless theories that benefit nobody

[inner torrent]

I don't think do

We have seen some insentient races can develope sentience in some of its members, like flukes

[ornate pier]

Every fluke except the fluke hermit is infected

[blissful harbor]

flukes aren’t the best case tbf

[ornate pier]

I'm pretty sure fluke hj entries also talk about how they're not fully mindless

So I'd say they're like cavemen normally, primitive but sentient, but as usual the infection gets rid of that

[pliant crag]

I just hope sly is alive, oh, and elderbug too

[marble roost]

Hello

This is my draw

I really not coloring my draws

Oh

And, i don't draw too much

And i have errors 😔

[frozen hornet]

wrong channel?

[sterile drum]

I dont know. Like for all we know ages might have passed beween HK and Silksong. Hornet is a very long lasting creature

[inner torrent]

Lofeblood is actually good in theory

If you think about it lifeblood is just defending from those who hunt it

[halcyon fjord]

Hornet is centuries old

"To pair with another is a base instinct, and one that brings some bugs great joy. I once sought similar union, but of my own mates none could match my lifespan."

[silk dirge]

hornet is almost the oldest non hb character

somehow green prince is older than hornet

[halcyon fjord]

She presumably shares the same lifespan as other Pale Beings

[silk dirge]

which i would assume to be immortal to dying by old age

[halcyon fjord]

Wait how do we know this?

[silk dirge]

timeline stuff

[halcyon fjord]

Nah, the Pale King seems to have died to old age

[silk dirge]

green prince was prince of verdania before gms i assume

before gms there are no weavers

[silk dirge]

i believe he committed suicide

theres no real evidence on what actually killed him

[blissful harbor]

how did you get that

[silk dirge]

but i think thats the most likely

[blissful harbor]

old age is the least likely thing, dude planned to rule his kingdom forever

dying of old age wasn’t on the table for him

[floral venture]

We have no idea how PK died, at all

[blissful harbor]

offing himself seems to be the most likely imo

[halcyon fjord]

There's no visible injury on him or weaponry near him. He shows no signs of infection or void. Nobody would have been able to reach him. He likely died of exhaustion/succumbed to age due to using an immense amount of power to move the White Palace to the dream dimension

[silk dirge]

i mean i highly doubt stabbing himself would lead him to die

[pliant crag]

There are void particles in the throne room

[inner torrent]

Idk, remember that the kingdoms were attacked in the last government by the conductors, not by the weavers

[frigid belfry]

Me when i ignore the entire void tainted room

[pliant crag]

And numerous dead kingsmoulds

[silk dirge]

i would imagine committing suicide for him means he did something special

instead of straight up stabbing himself

[floral venture]

Can Pale Beings die of age?

[ornate pier]

Why would he die of old age his daughter is immortal

[blissful harbor]

or he just chose to die

[blissful harbor]

doesn’t seem like it

[pliant crag]

I don't think so

[blissful harbor]

Hbs in general, seem to be immortal

biologically

[floral venture]

Additionally, why would he commit suicide?

[inner torrent]

Doubt it

[silk dirge]

immortal to time

[blissful harbor]

wym why
all the shame he felt with the vessel project

[silk dirge]

but other shit can kill them

[blissful harbor]

everything he did was for nothing

[pliant crag]

It was the void, somehow it leaked in

[ornate pier]

Shame ig

[blissful harbor]

his kingdom fell anyways

he had to run away, literally

[silk dirge]

bc he felt he failed

[halcyon fjord]

If it was suicide why would the Kingsmolds be dead is the question. No cause really makes sense unless the Pale King or something killed the Kingsmoulds. Kingsmoulds are made of void, so we can rule infection and void out.

[floral venture]

I doubt he felt shame

[blissful harbor]

???

[pliant crag]

Or maybe all of his dead kids

[blissful harbor]

did you play the first game with your eyes closed, his shame in the act is a major plot point

[silk dirge]

he made a massive sacrifice and it failed

[ornate pier]

It is stated he regretted it

[silk dirge]

he felt massive shame

[blissful harbor]

“wyrms great shame”

[pliant crag]

He was very upset but had to do it

[ornate pier]

The lore tablet outside the abyss

[blissful harbor]

“beyond lies only the refuse and regret of its creation”

[ornate pier]

Exactly