sk-lore

[river yarrow]

so, is this just a completely different place from pharloom and HK1 area? or there is some connection?

[frigid belfry]

implied that this is (somewhat) the true surface, its also similar to the place we see in the quirrel comic

[silk dirge]

thats crazy

these guys have not played silksong

[river yarrow]

ah I see I see, so the bug here is the one who was left behind while all of its friends seduced to go to pharloom?

[inner torrent]

What if Sherma is the god of the pilgrims?

Taken form out of their devotion

He is the real god the citadel has been singing to, taken form out of the desire, out of the hopes of underworks.
Out of the fear pilgrims feel while crossing the blasted steps

[timber pond]

Is this how lace works?

[inner torrent]

I guess so?

[craggy smelt]

the answer must be yes

[silk dirge]

girl became a fucking sheep lmao

[lean temple]

From living plushy to sheep

[silk dirge]

lace is about to lose eva silk privilege

[lean temple]

Is your child spending too much on the couch? Just starve them!

[pliant crag]

Okay, crackpot theory time

Pale oil is said to come from "a rare, syphean slug"

And binding Eva gives you the SYLPHsoul

[frigid belfry]

eva is the pk

[pliant crag]

Sylphs are described as spirits of air, but due to their connection to pale oil I'd rather say they have a connection to soul instead

SO

[midnight zinc]

Nikado Avocado looking ass

[pliant crag]

The weavers tried to make a pale being with their pale-infused silk

Is there a pale slug going around?

Pale Unn?

Perhaps for every higher being there is a pale counterpart

Makes me wonder where the higher beings came from

[lean temple]

That's a bunch of questions we'll never get answers to

[frigid belfry]

grand mother higher

[lean temple]

Firstly it seems paleness itself is connected to soul

[pliant crag]

The last one, most definitely

We do know higher beings have some relation to the dream world

[muted lantern]

just realized you can do this before activating songclave.

hi shaman

[pliant crag]

Also kinda weird we didn't see the dream world in silksong

[lean temple]

OI OHOY

[frigid belfry]

hornet kind of cant access it

we couldnt either till we got dn

[pliant crag]

Unless the memories are just hornet encasing the other guys' dreams with her mind silk thing

[frigid belfry]

its some shaman x weaver shenanigans

it doesnt seem to access the dream world

silk can do fuckeverything in this universe anyway

lost your job? silk

pet died? silk

[pliant crag]

Whiteward mindset:

Yeah hornet summoned the HOLY PALE FLOWER OF LIGHT, THE ONLY THING ABLE TO REPEL THE DARKEST DARK with just her silk

Team cherry pls nerf

[pale narwhal]

probably because it just acts as a conduit for soul and most likely whatever other magic the weilder has

[timber pond]

The dreamnail is like, the last artifact that can really acess it is the thing

Since the moths were the ones who made those and they are like, all dead.

[pliant crag]

Maybe there were others?

[timber pond]

Sure, "were"

[pliant crag]

Perhaps some other higher being came in and made new guys

[timber pond]

But as of now. There is like no way to acess one

Like the one we get is from within a dream

That you only get acess to because you are forcefully banished to it and the seer happens to know a thing or two I guess

[pliant crag]

What if

The next hollow knight game (in like 20 years)

Is zote in the dream world

It just makes sense

[abstract rivet]

how about a new IP

from team cherry

[pliant crag]

Yeah i want that first tho

[viscid ridge]

Im pretty sure there are other dream gods out there, i doubt its something exclusive to hallownest

[pliant crag]

I like the bugs but something else would be fun

[viscid ridge]

Yeah fearless fox

[pliant crag]

Like that fearless fox thing

[abstract rivet]

They would be stripped away the chains of “its just a sequel”

And they wouldn’t have sequel problems

[viscid ridge]

I mean they did say after completing silksong and its dlcs that they are gonna move on from hollow knight

[pliant crag]

Watch team cherry turn the cute game of a fox going through an adventure in the woods to a narrative about the hubris of old gods and the imminent end of everything in this mortal coil

[abstract rivet]

really excited what theyd cook

Let’s meet on the road ahead

[pliant crag]

They did say they might return to the hk universe some time later, but that's like in 20 years so who cares

[lean temple]

Can't wait to find Mister Mushroom there too talking about how everything will perish and he will readjust

[lethal burrow]

That sounds cool as fuck

[pliant crag]

Mr mushroom is the anchor holding the team cherry ip's together

[lean temple]

True

[pliant crag]

Didn't tc make a game about a cat in a desert?

[abstract rivet]

Can they continue with emotionless peasants that don’t show affection or emotion towards anything

[pliant crag]

What if fearless fox takes place there

[abstract rivet]

Hollow Peasant

[pliant crag]

Kinda like how hk started as hungry knight

[abstract rivet]

Instead of Hollow Knight

[past cypress]

I want more HK games because the world is so thought out

[abstract rivet]

Same but ehhh

Like I would be hyped for a third if they went with it

[past cypress]

There's still so much to discover that it feels like a waste

[abstract rivet]

But a new IP is so much interesting

[quartz spire]

was replaying the game recently, and noticed how little white butterflies (silk butterflies?) directing us all thr time, not only in the mist. and then there's the scene where Lace conducting them before our fight in Deep Docks. does this mean she's helping us all the time?.. 🥹 it just changed the whole perspective for me

[abstract rivet]

Maybe they can fill the important blanks

and end Silksong with a massive expansion

Kinda like Godmaster

[abstract rivet]

she lowkey wants to kill you but whatever

cus you’re important to GMS and she’s so rebellious

and is jealous

teenagers these days man

[lean temple]

The only ones controlled by her were the early game ones. The ones in the mist are independent

I believe so at least

[silk dirge]

watch fearless fox be hk universe but scaled up

[quartz spire]

but she protected us when GMS was dragging us into abyss... i think it's mixed feelings

[abstract rivet]

because

it was an act of rebellion

[silk dirge]

shade lord is the size of a pebble the fox steps on

[lean temple]

She's spiting GMS. Everything she does is to spite GMS

[abstract rivet]

I mean Lace did kinda do good and bad with why she saved us

First of all if the plan went as planned

We would die

but no one else would

Lace saved us

So garmonds dead

Pilgrims are dead

Towns are ruined

the areas are in destruction

but we’re alive

and i prefer the second outcome because who cares about garmond and p*lgrims and their towns

[quartz spire]

i think hornet might be her secret crush. and that commitment to kill her is just a suppressed desire to engage in the act of love

[quartz spire]

me...

[abstract rivet]

wha

No not really it’s just to rebel against GMS

she doesn’t want GMS to get what she wants (us)

so she tries to kill us

She really hate da big silk mom

Nothing about affection towards Hornet unfortunately

[frigid belfry]

fanon in a lore channel ggs

[abstract rivet]

cooked

[quartz spire]

i mean the plot is written so it's open to interpretation. especially what considers character motivations. and Lace is multidimensional character, so it's not the only one feeling that drives her actions

[abstract rivet]

I really hate to tell you man but it’s just hatred towards her mother

[quartz spire]

hmm... source?

[lime nova]

Phantom's theme seems to be very similar to the vessel theme from HK

[abstract rivet]

Sealed Vessel has Dies Irea

It’s been there the whole time.?

[lime nova]

True

But that's not really what I was saying

[frigid belfry]

sure, but for any reasonable theory there should be some evidence behind it

[abstract rivet]

Ye Phantom’s like an vessel too

[frigid belfry]

the most accepted reason is lace wanting to rebel against gms

a directly parallel to thk

[abstract rivet]

ye and its the theory that makes the most sense

I don’t think theres any motivations of loving hornet

[lime nova]

The main leitmotif of Hollow Knight, the vessel theme, is very similar to a specific part of Phantom's theme, one sec

[abstract rivet]

I mean i can see why

[lime nova]

https://youtu.be/N8Xr6x92MD0?si=CVJn1Z2Lx8uUV0Dg https://youtu.be/nsOkMtELuag?si=RGOvWmjZjWt-4V77&t=16

At 16s in her theme

[abstract rivet]

tbh Phantom’s an vessel so I can see

[frigid belfry]

the vessels (mainly thk) and the silk sisters have direct literary and thematic parallels to eachother

[lime nova]

Absolutely

Absolutely

[abstract rivet]

but not some hollow one it’s like Grimm

[frigid belfry]

both made for a purpose by their parental hb's

one failed while the other "succeeded"

[abstract rivet]

uh

grimm is also an vessel I don’t think theres someone who fails in his story tho

[lime nova]

Lace believing she's not truly alive

"I have seen others make the same mistake"

[abstract rivet]

White Knight

Grey Ghost

Shit really be telling you something

[quartz spire]

i'm not questioning rebellion, but one does not exclude the other—she can have growing feelings towards Hornet, especially after she constantly engages in a battle with us. mixed feelings of love, hate and despair. like between Chun Li and Juri if you familiar with street fighter lore

[abstract rivet]

I feel like silksong’s main theme is choosing your own identity

Sherma changed

Shakra changed its not that strength mattered the most

GMS changed its not power that mattered the most

[frigid belfry]

sure, but the latter at least had some literary evidence

if there was any text that the rest of the community missed that says "lace felt growing feelings" that would be great

[abstract rivet]

shakra went from seeing pilgrims as weak losers and now shes protecting them

Sherma changed from being the goat to being the goats of goats

GMS changed from evil big silk mom to slightly less evil big silk mom that cared for her children

[quartz spire]

it's not mandatory to have a line of text for every hypothesis. you can look at the actions—she kinda guides us to the Citadel and then protects in the final battle. acting very cocky and showing off. there's definitely a certain dynamic between her and us. plus, in HK, Hornet herself has tested the Knight. in Silksong, Lace is sort of Hornet for us being mean, but helping us become stronger

[frigid belfry]

sure again, but an argument is a lot stronger when it is outright implied textually or said textually. visual interpretation is always ambiguous: "he kinda guides us to the Citadel and then protects in the final battle. acting very cocky and showing off." - i now interpret that lace is a manipulator who wants hornets silk because she gains her trust

[timber pond]

I would feel this way if they Didnt make Embrace the Void

Like, every ending ends on a "Open Conclusion" type note

Yeah it dosent explain everything, but it dosent need to

But embrace the void is just like "BRO WHAT IF....?????"

And then you ask "What, What?! WHAT IF WHAT?"

"Uh idk just forget about it"

?????

[frigid belfry]

i just wish we get an amazing third game that explores the steel city with huge reveals that tie up all the major lore points while asking new questions

[timber pond]

YOu cant just what if me and go "yeah, there is no continuation there"

[frigid belfry]

it ties up ancient civ, void, thk, hornet storyline, hallownest stuff, etc

[timber pond]

The thing is ,you Dont even need to Tie up most of those because they are just things that exist.

But THK being alive in Embrace the void is actively a choice they had to do after everything was a neat package

[frigid belfry]

there are alot of un-tied up stuff from those questions that i would love to see answered

[timber pond]

Sure, but they dont ever pose most of it like it NEEDS to be answered.

The Hollow Knight living is the only one thats like "Hmm what will happen?"

[frigid belfry]

yeah this is just my wishing

[timber pond]

It doesn't have anything you can explain or posit after it thats reasonable is the thing

[frigid belfry]

kind of yeah

[muted lantern]

No wonder the courier bugs do the job they do, they can fly with the ridiculous packages they carry

[frigid belfry]

we have no idea what the timeline of ancient civ is, what tf void is, where pbs come from, and there are a bunch of unanswered stuff i cant recall right now

[wise sand]

Gms didn't really change in anyway imo, she did seem to care for her children in some way and she was gonna die anyways so it's not surprising that she sacrificed herself for lace

[lime nova]

Holy shit cogwork dancers is also the vessel theme

[trail wagon]

hey everyone

I know it's probably already been discussed here multiple times

But do you think we're getting a Steelheart DLC for Silksong based on what TC said in their interview?

I don't think it was said that we're getting a Steelheart DLC necessarily, I still didn't even feel like Sharpe was confirmed to be for Silksong, right?

[hearty bolt]

A dlc related to the steel city and their weird mofos, sure

a steel soul-only dlc? absolutely not that'd be insane

[solemn hinge]

It’s probably gonna have a decent amount of Steel Soul exclusive stuff, but the main meat of it wouldn’t be I bet

[muted lantern]

hornet getting called a mite here is really funny if you believe the herrah drapemite theory

[winter scaffold]

@floral jackal

[trail wagon]

ahahahah

[trail wagon]

Me too. I really hope we won't see the Masters in Silksong

[fervent sigil]

any hypotheses of how the knight (void given form) got to hornet in time?

lore begineer x

[mossy jay]

We can see it move very quickly through the Void.

[craggy smelt]

Void fast travel~!

[fervent sigil]

can normal void do that or do u need void heart

[craggy smelt]

for all we know they were already on the way to find out what the hell was going on with the Void getting all riled up from GMS presence

[patent vault]

Can someone explain how Hornet in HK has parry, and can also throw her needle just like Silk Spear, and even has the same Thread Storm ability — but at the beginning of Silksong she doesn’t have any of that?

[frigid belfry]

rune cage + the ones in silksong are superior to the self taught/hive techniques in hk

[frigid belfry]

timelines in this universe are so debatable theres no way to know how much time it took, nor when the knight left, or even where he was

he couldve already been in the abyss below sandsea wastes, or in pharloom, or somewhere else

[patent vault]

She has already left it , and what proves that the cage does that ?

[frigid belfry]

its hard to find the dialogue, but when talking to the chapel maid hornet outright says he has lost her strength and will regain it by the time she reaches the citadels peak

[halcyon fjord]

Do you guys think Vaultkeeper Cardinus (as well as the dead centipede-like vaultkeeper where you obtain the Vaultkeeper's melody) is the same species as Relic Seeker Scrounge (and Thread Raker?). Vaultkeeper Cardinus seems to interestingly be of a different species than the haunted Vaultkeepers we encounter (no idea how their physiology works btw)

[frigid belfry]

yes

they have similar hoarding behaviour too which leads me to believe the citadel used the method to raise judges (indoctrinating one species)

they took whatever species they are and gave them that task

[halcyon fjord]

My guess is that your species determines what task you are assigned. Centipedes are probably vaultkeepers because they can easily reach the higher bookshelves, for example. We also know for sure that flies as a species are condemned to be the wardens and guards of the Slab for past sins

Aka it's not just a gameplay thing that every enemy of one type is X species

[patent vault]

Oh! That could be true; even Hornet's weakness in the beginning might be due to the cage.

[halcyon fjord]

This is backed up by the Relic Keeper also being a centipede, he can reach items in his vast collection easier so he naturally took up the task. And why all pondcatchers can fly - it just makes them more suited for the task

[muted lantern]

Hornet says the cage weakened her and that she needs to regain her strength to chapel maid very early in the game. She has to regain her power and increase it further by visiting the dead weavers

[halcyon fjord]

We know for certain that pre-Pharloom Hornet had Thread Storm, Swift Step, and Clawline at least, who knows how many other abilities she had by the time Silksong takes place

I wish we could use clawline to swing from ceilings like Hornet does in HK though

Ig Silk Soar is kind of that, at least in terms of relating to the capacity we see her use her needle as an upwards grappling hook in the first game

[solemn hinge]

I would personally say she had Sting Shard and probably Needle 1 for equipment

[fervent sigil]

bind, swift step, clawline, silkspear, threadstorm, cross stitch & sting shard (tool)

[solemn hinge]

She def didn’t have Cross Stitch

[fervent sigil]

i’m surprised she doesn’t bind in neither of the HK fights

[fervent sigil]

different version tho

[solemn hinge]

She had a parry but it definitely wasn’t specifically Cross Stitch

[solemn hinge]

Then that doesn’t count tbh

[fervent sigil]

i mean isn’t the powers that hornet has now different then the ones pre pharloom?

well slightly/similar

[solemn hinge]

They probably a little different

[fervent sigil]

they all different true, but what’s not different is that they’re all weaver techniques/abilities

[solemn hinge]

The reason I think she had Needle 1 in Hollow Knight is because Needle 2 says “The blade gleams sharper than ever before” so I don’t think she had that

[solemn hinge]

Aside from Sting Shard but yeah

[fervent sigil]

sting shard ≠ spike traps

though very similar

[solemn hinge]

Okay they do look literally exactly the same

They’re meant to be the same tool

😭

[fervent sigil]

summary:
hornet got caged, lost almost all powers, gets it back by bounding similar & stronger ones from dead weavers (+ some more cool abilities/techniques)

also the “forge daughter = weaver” part was a joke, i think hornet just asked FD to make her one

[frigid belfry]

hornet essentially had weaker versions of her pharloom abiltiies because those were self taught (cross stitch, clawline, silkspear) etc

sting shard is a better version of her spike traps

[solemn hinge]

I’d argue she had a way better Clawline but I agree

[halcyon fjord]

For fun I decided to write up a concept of what a HK Hornet boss fight would look like with her new abilities. Worth noting that Cross Stitch also does 2 masks of damage even though it isn't mentioned

[frigid belfry]

id argue the one she used was for story rather than gameplay, hornet can do silksoar from the quirrel comic but wont in gameplay for gameplay reasons

[halcyon fjord]

It would definitely be a much more difficult, but I wonder if she'd be able to beat the Knight canonically with her current abilities

Peak Hornet vs peak Knight

[solemn hinge]

I mean, Hornet only uses Clawline in HK in cutscenes

She never actually uses it in battle

[halcyon fjord]

I'd argue needle throw is technically clawline

[solemn hinge]

6 skills

[frigid belfry]

yeah essentially

[solemn hinge]

It’s more Silkspear

Just kinda like, slow and not as glowy

[halcyon fjord]

In function, yes, in terms of what she's actually doing, no

[solemn hinge]

It’s kind of a shame you can’t technically play with HK Hornet’s full moveset

You’d need 2 Silk Skills and 1 Red Tool slot, which isn’t in Silksong as is

[halcyon fjord]

She's straight up throwing the needle forward the exact same way we do when we use clawline

[solemn hinge]

Okay but she does that with Silkspear too

It’s just less glowy in HK

[halcyon fjord]

HK hornet has Clawline, Silk Soar, Swift Step, Thread Storm, and Sting Shard, which is achievable in Silksong

[halcyon fjord]

That uses silk to empower it, it's not throwing the base needle

[solemn hinge]

Okay but at the same time, Clawline’s most important aspect is the movement

[halcyon fjord]

The needle throw attack is literally identical to clawline, she just doesn't pull herself towards you

[solemn hinge]

So it uh

Isn’t literally identical

[halcyon fjord]

She can use the same tool for multiple different purposes though. Gameplay wise it's not the same but lorewise the attack is not her using Silkspear, it's just her throwing the needle and retrieving it like we do with Clawline

[solemn hinge]

Hmmmm

I still think it’s closer to Silkspear

[halcyon fjord]

Think of it this way: Hornet doesn't throw the needle normally except for as movement in Silksong because she unlocked new tech from the weavers that lets her make her throws stronger by empowering them with silk. She uses the Silkspear technique to replace that old attack, rather than it being exactly the same

In essence she's still just throwing the needle, but it's more powerful than what she was capable of in HK

[solemn hinge]

Yeah, so I’d say it’s close to the move in HK

[halcyon fjord]

Silk Spear is the modern equivalent functionality-wise, I'm just saying that she didn't have the Silk Spear back then

[solemn hinge]

It has the same function, is what I mean

She uses it for the same purpose, whereas with Clawline she uses it for movement

[halcyon fjord]

Yeah

I'd argue the grappling function she uses in cutscenes in HK is also just Silksoar btw

[solemn hinge]

I don’t think a HK-inspired Hornet moveset would be complete without Silkspear

[halcyon fjord]

That is very true

[solemn hinge]

Probably something in between

[copper fiber]

do you think lace ever killed a weaver

[solemn hinge]

Sorta Clawline, sorta Silk Soar

[halcyon fjord]

I think it's just a discrepancy between gameplay and canon. They couldn't give us a total free control grappling hook (would have been cool of they did but I could see that being OP), so we just got up, down, left, and right movement

[solemn hinge]

Yea

[halcyon fjord]

You tell me bro, did you kill a weaver?

[copper fiber]

yes I did

[copper fiber]

every weaver that gets binded by hornet like the silkspear and clawline ones is a weaver I killed

I set up their remnants so that I could lure hornet along a path I wanted her to follow

[halcyon fjord]

Coral Gourge isn't coming. City of Steel is likely though

They mentioned in the interview how Coral Gourge didn't fit the narrative they wanted to have for the game, it was too alive for a dying land

[trail wagon]

Actually ☝️🤓

They still exist in some way inside of Hornet's mind, but they can't have a consious experience, and their consiousness only exists as an extension of Hornet's consiousness

[trail wagon]

I didn't say a word about it coming, I know it won't

There's no reason to add it

[copper fiber]

yes and that consciousness came out of the corpse I turned them into

[trail wagon]

It was pretty clear before the interview too, but yeah

[solemn hinge]

Yeah it’s kinda like Piccolo fusing with Nail

[trail wagon]

I don't think we'll see the City of Steel in a DLC. Most likely we'll see something related to them, perhaps Sharpe and his companions, but I'm sure we won't see the Masters

Or at least I hope we won't, it would be incredibly underwhelming imo

[solemn hinge]

I think having the City itself would be fine but idk about showing us everything about the place in the DLC

[halcyon fjord]

Idk man, I think it would be the perfect place for Sharpe and his companion, plus to learn about Jinn and Zi

[trail wagon]

I think it wouldn't really make sense to place it so close to Pharloom

Unless we teleport there

[solemn hinge]

I’m betting on cutscene fast travel

[halcyon fjord]

I mean, we know that at least one of the part-weaver descendents got taken underneath the City of Steel when they were captured, so presumably it's not too far

What happened to them we don't know

[trail wagon]

it would, it's just that I don't think TC would add like another half of the game

I think the City of Steel smaller than the Citadel wouldn't really feel good enough

[solemn hinge]

I think if they add a City of Steel, it would probably be just an added area, not a whole extra map

[solemn hinge]

Or that yeah

[trail wagon]

What I'm saying, is that I think the City of Steel is expected to be much bigger than they would likely want to add to the game

[solemn hinge]

Perchance

[halcyon fjord]

Why would it be that big? The Steel Soul guys aren't that big of a story element lorewise are they? It could just be one area, Citadel sized at largest, though probably City of Tears sized, with Sharpe and his companions as a boss and some lore about the steel dudes

[trail wagon]

We don't really know if that city of Steel is the same thing as the Spire mentioned by Zi

[trail wagon]

They absolutely are, that's the point

[solemn hinge]

City of Steel is kinda a big thing

[trail wagon]

It's suggested that the Masters who sent Steelhearts are actually immensly powerful creatures

[solemn hinge]

I hope we see a tiny tiny tiny tiny bit of the Masters

Give us like, a blink and you miss hint at them

[trail wagon]

They can make Higher Beings dance to their tune, of course they're a very important part of the lore

[halcyon fjord]

I was referring to the lore found in the Cradle.

Weaver, in quarter part, last of their line, staked to service.
Tracked and taken beneath the City of Steel.
Eight Choristors, twelve Envoys lost to task

[trail wagon]

Honestly I would expect them to be hidden until the last point

[trail wagon]

Again

I already said that we don't know if it's the same place

I personally think it's not, to be honest

Zi talks about some Spire

[halcyon fjord]

What's their lore then, because I haven't seen them talked about?

[trail wagon]

Where she was born, basically

[halcyon fjord]

I wasn't talking about that at all

I didn't say they were related

[trail wagon]

Zi mentions she was sent by her masters to observe and record everything that is going on

If Hornet rejects her wish, she starts talking about how Hornet should be afraid of her Masters

ale It... You would reject the role? Are you not tamed, bound, by Masters?... You would know... obedience is essential.
Recall, the fate of those who defy... Even you higher... Especially you higher...
...Compression... We have suffered it. We would never wish it upon another.

Pale*

[solemn hinge]

Tbh, I think the most exciting prospect for DLC imo is furthering Weaver Queen

[trail wagon]

the first word

[trail wagon]

Like the Weaver Queen ending?

[halcyon fjord]

So are Jinn and Zi both mechanical constructs or something, and Sula and Jiji living inhabitants also from what is presumably some foreign kingdom of steel?

[trail wagon]

Yeah, kinda

We don't know if it's a kingdom, but I think it would make more sense to make it one

Rather than just one city

[halcyon fjord]

Weaver Queen? Who would that be?

[trail wagon]

Unless that city is huge

[solemn hinge]

Yeah, I think it would be interesting to do more with the concept

My only particular idea is for Weaver Queen Hornet to be the final boss of the pantheon-like DLC, since y’know, dreams or whatever

[lethal burrow]

it would be highly odd if the two steel related things are completely unrelated.

Remember that everything in the entire game was done with intent nothing is naturally occurring random coincidence

[halcyon fjord]

Assuming the spire is seperate then it's probably a kingdom. But the spire could very well be inside of the city and it's just a huge fortress bigger than or the same size as the Citadel. Tbf we have no idea how many inhabitants there are there anyway

[timber pond]

Ari Gibson in the recent interview refers to Sharpe as "apart of the strange steel society"

[trail wagon]

I thought about that too, but it's kinda unlikely, I don't think they want this ending to be the true one (I know the whole "no true ending" thing, by "true" here I mean the one that is associated with the main timeline with as much content included as possible)

[trail wagon]

wait

[halcyon fjord]

Wait what? That doesn't make very much sense all things considered

[trail wagon]

do you mean A part or apart?

[solemn hinge]

I think the idea I gave kinda goes around that issue

[timber pond]

A part of

[halcyon fjord]

Ohhh

Nvm that does make sense

[trail wagon]

oh well, ofc he is, that's quite obvious

[halcyon fjord]

I thought you meant apart lol

[trail wagon]

he is STEEL assasin Sharpe, why would he be separate?

[timber pond]

Yes. And Zi subtly hints to someone hunting down Sula for all time

[solemn hinge]

I think this would particularly work well as a way for Hornet to more completely get over her more conqueror-like impulses

[timber pond]

So through these lose connections i think they all tie back to The city of steel pretty definitely

[raw totem]

Maybe people thought as him and his group as outcast of some sort

[halcyon fjord]

What did Sula do bro, what's the lore behind this quest I haven't done Steel Soul 😭

She summons a void entity but why

[trail wagon]

Yeah, I get that, but it still may not necessarily be the same thing, not completely unrelated, but it may not be THE Steel place, you know what I mean?

[timber pond]

He summoned void and filled bodies with it

[trail wagon]

Yeah, actually

[halcyon fjord]

Why though

Was he just feeling like making an abomination for funsies?

[timber pond]

Because its aperentyl, extremely tortorus to serve the steelheart sand thier masters

[trail wagon]

The boss is called "Summoned Saviour", which I think implies Sula thinks it would save them

[raw totem]

No, it was like a champion/bodyguard

[halcyon fjord]

From the masters?

And those sent to hunt Sula?

[trail wagon]

They mention that the world is dying, so not really sure

[timber pond]

Yes. He describes how he has to stay and watch multiple kingdoms die and thousands of countless bugs.

[trail wagon]

As far as I understood they were sent BECAUSE Sula did that

[timber pond]

And he wants to run away

[raw totem]

From all the responsibilities I think, cause after the fight they leave

[halcyon fjord]

So Zi is a snitch ig.

[raw totem]

In an escaping way

[timber pond]

Zi was built to observe

[halcyon fjord]

Why didn't Zi just tell us to murder Sula though?

[timber pond]

Like jinn was built to trade

[halcyon fjord]

Did they know we wouldn't do it?

Clearly they have no problem having outsiders deal with their Master's issues

[trail wagon]

I mean doesn't seem like it, Zi actually wants Sula to be able to escape. The Masters just know Sula has done what they've done

[timber pond]

Some kind of order of affairs. The steelhearts seem indefrent, but must serve due to thier creation.

[raw totem]

They seem to like or have a bit of appreciation for sula cause after you tell her sula escaped Zi says that its better that way after some thought

I'm bad at using pronouns, im sorry

[halcyon fjord]

Dw I can understand what you are saying

[trail wagon]

wdym

I didn't notice any issues

[raw totem]

Cause sometimes I call someone he or she instead of they

[halcyon fjord]

I think they just mean that they aren't sure what the genders of each of the characters are, which I don't know either for a lot of them tbf

[raw totem]

Idk what pronouns they have

[trail wagon]

Ohhh we don't really know Sula's gender, it's never specified

I think it's fine

[timber pond]

Im calling it right now,Sharpe is likely a terminator type archetype. There are multiple sharpes made.

[raw totem]

For me Zi is Female cause in Spanish She's a she and Sula a He

[trail wagon]

I'm just referring to Sula by "they", since we don't know

[halcyon fjord]

Did Team Cherry do the Spanish translations directly?

[raw totem]

That would be really cool, but I prefer the rival Sharpe tbh

[raw totem]

Idk sorry

[trail wagon]

I would be cautious about translation, because there have been some mistakes

[halcyon fjord]

Well, ig even if we know they are accurate it doesn't tell us whether Sula has a gender or not, because he is used by default in Spanish isn't it?

[trail wagon]

Like in Spanish/French (?) translation it's implied that Green Princes were brothers, which is not the case, they were lovers

[raw totem]

We have neutral gender

[raw totem]

Nah, in Spanish they are 100% lovers

They say couple multiple times

[trail wagon]

Ohh okay, not sure which language it was, but I've heard that

[trail wagon]

Well, in that translation it said both I believe, so it appeared as they were brother lovers ahahha

Which AS FAR AS WE'RE AWARE is not the case

[raw totem]

I went to the wiki in Spanish and Sula is a He apparently

[trail wagon]

Also, I know for a fact that in Russian translation the "Dream No More" ending is translated as "There are no more dreams", basically implying that dreams don't exist anymore

[raw totem]

Tbh, not that I care XD, this all started cause I was having trouble

[halcyon fjord]

I don't think that one's accurate

[lean temple]

Zi says she wants Sula retrieved dead or alive

[trail wagon]

Which I also don't think is the case, there's not really anything that suggests that the Dream Realm is impacted by the ending at all

[trail wagon]

That's like completely taking out of somebody's asshs

[raw totem]

Yeah, but after you let him go she says its for the best

[lean temple]

Yeah at first she says it is to avoid the Masters' wrath, but after Summoned Saviour I think it is inevitable that the Masters are angered

[timber pond]

He would be. Like how SA-X exists as one.

A learning Kingsmould every time a new one appears would be sick

[halcyon fjord]

Onto more important questions, how tf is this the same guy. How does that work, like, at all?

How is he so tall with the robes?!

How does any of that work?

[lean temple]

Standing with legs straight

[halcyon fjord]

How does bro walk with no knees? Where does the cloak/shell go?

[lean temple]

HK logic

[lethal burrow]

i do not

[halcyon fjord]

Also how are these all the same species 😭

[solemn hinge]

Question: how this boy so round

[lean temple]

Don't forget relic seeker scrounge

[halcyon fjord]

There's no way the vaultkeepers are the same species bro, but also the centipede vaultkeeper looks different from the centipede raker guy who looks different from Relic Seeker Scrounge. How many limbs do they actually have? Where do the limbs go??

[halcyon fjord]

HOW MANY LIMBS DO YOU HAVE

[foggy fractal]

who said the generic vaultkeeper has to be the same species as the other guys

[solemn hinge]

The first two look the same (but with a different mask) but the last one is not the same, no way

[halcyon fjord]

But the rake dude and the Vaultkeeper centipede have more arms than Scrounge for some reason

[solemn hinge]

Y’know uh

[halcyon fjord]

I agree, they can't be the same, but idk what bug the Vaultkeeper enemy is supposed to be based on

[solemn hinge]

Millipedes have variable amounts of legs

[lean temple]

Sadly the journal doesn't mention them growing longer or something

[solemn hinge]

Like, as millipedes grow, they gain more legs

It could just be size variance

[halcyon fjord]

That would explain this massive mf

[lean temple]

He was likely very old

[solemn hinge]

Yea

[lean temple]

Vespa or Karmelita situation

[halcyon fjord]

Yeah

Bugs just get big as they age apparently. They never stop growing it seems

Unless you're Hornet

[lean temple]

I wouldn't say all of them

[halcyon fjord]

Not all, but a lot of em

[solemn hinge]

But seriously, I don’t think Vaultkeepers are the same species as these guys

[lean temple]

The ones we see get big are the leaders of eusocial species, Karmelita, Vespa, and maybe Mantis Lords

And the Pontiff

[foggy fractal]

yeah
they just have the headpiece and the rule of vaultkeepers

[halcyon fjord]

Yeah, I agree, but why are only 2 vaultkeepers in particular centipedes is my question

[solemn hinge]

What do you mean

Oh

Well I doubt Vaultkeeping is a species-specific thing then

And Vaultkeepers simply wear the same fits

[halcyon fjord]

Probably

I wanna know what a Conductor looks like

All we have is the headpiece and a sillohuete

[solemn hinge]

We know

[halcyon fjord]

Ig there's the statue

[solemn hinge]

The Unraveled is probably close enough

[halcyon fjord]

Which btw, the statue depicts another vaultkeeper that isn't whatever tf this thing is or a centipede

[halcyon fjord]

I suppose, yeah.

[foggy fractal]

we'll probably never get to see what conductors looked like underneath though, probably generic bug shape anyway

[halcyon fjord]

Black blob with white eyes

The HK classic

How can they see out of those things anyway?

If their eyes line up with the holes on the headpiece they must have some weird ass head shape

[solemn hinge]

I mean

They bugs

[halcyon fjord]

Eye stalks perhaps

[lean temple]

Interestingly Cardinius says that the Vaultkeepers deferred only to the Weavers.

So perhaps the three Citadel head factions didn't have authority over each other

[barren beacon]

Why is the Belfly's head an exact 1 to 1 to Shakra's head

[lean temple]

Oh yeah and he says demanding something from a Vaultkeeper is punishable by death

[solemn hinge]

It’s funny cause I always see people say stuff like that and it’s usually only kinda close

But yeah it’s just the same face

[barren beacon]

Belfly

[lean temple]

Poshankafly (reused asset maybe? Or just coincidence)

[barren beacon]

Design Choice

[halcyon fjord]

Probably this, for the sake of design consistency

[silk dirge]

shakra is an aged belfly

funny question how do you think it would go over if all of hornets pharloom friends saw red memory

sherma would probably be like "whats a weaver or wyrm and why are they telling you to be more weaver?"

everyone else would just be going insane like

meeting a weaver is like a fucking cryptid spotting or some shit

[sinful nimbus]

Wyrms might be common knowledge

[silk dirge]

that could be true

i want to see a history class at pilgrim spawnpoint village #2 highschool

in any case shermas teacher was probably teaching him misinfo bro thinks greymoor still has food 😭

[sinful nimbus]

Don't worry little moorbug, we've got enough muckroach meat to feed you for your entire life

I don't actually recall him commenting on Greymoor when is that

[silk dirge]

pilgrims rest

"Hoy there! Aren't these fields marvellous? And above us are the bountiful moors, where every pilgrim can fill their belly!"

[trail wagon]

🙁

EVERYBODY THERE'S BEEN A DLC LEAK

[silk dirge]

this dialog is followed by sherma thinking hes karmelita

Hornet: These hot fields are a wonder indeed, but hunters prowl the long grass. Playing your instrument will only alert them to your presence.
Well then, alert them I shall! For where many gather, great songs are sung!

[sinful nimbus]

we're ALL clicking on steel city leaks

[silk dirge]

steel city leak

[silk dirge]

honestly tho this is funny bc it is one example of sherma hinting at stuff later on

[delicate monolith]

What is that?

[silk dirge]

the door you meet sherma at is literally like the only door in pharloom not opened by song

[delicate monolith]

Is that for Silk Song?

[silk dirge]

steel city?

[delicate monolith]

ye

[silk dirge]

its a widely speculated silksong dlc

[timber pond]

Well its not speculation anymore really.

[silk dirge]

based off the cut steel characters who are confirmed to be returning now and a place called the city of steel being namedropped by a lore tablet in the cradle

[silk dirge]

i mean its speculation if we will actually go there

[timber pond]

They called it a "strange , Steel society " in an interview

[silk dirge]

we could end up just fighting sharpe in like far fields or some shit idk

[lapis creek]

they referred to it as side lore i think we might be cooked

[silk dirge]

if im being honest steel masters is probably just william and ari...

[timber pond]

Weavers were also "side lore" lol

[silk dirge]

is adelaide a city of steel

[timber pond]

Also they said they want the dlc to "have more of a story" or be more connected

So even if its side stuff it'll likely be more comprehensive than "she crushes on zote" "go get my fire bitch" and "hey kid you suck shit, Wana try this tuning?"

[lapis creek]

yeah but if it's more connected to the main story it's less likely to be side stuff right

[timber pond]

I don't think that's what they meant

I think its more like " if this DLC has its own plot, it'll be more interconnected because hornet has opinions and stronger curiosities into Specefic truths"

So like if we get a steel city DLC it won't be like "oh and also we added a random new boss to bilewater"

Because it would focus on the steel city or whatever subject the sideplot is based around

[muted lantern]

what if they just add 4 hive knights into bilewater

[visual glacier]

He’s goated so that’s fine

[muted lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/buzzah-hollow-knight-hive-knight-gif-8412578355217910788

[rocky quartz]

hello, im bored, so i went and look at the Abyss

I found that there are presence of snail shells across the abyss, and thought of how the Shamans (also snails) gave hornet the trap that is bound with the void

has anyone discovered the correlations between the snail shells, the shaman, and the abyss? or am i not reading enough lore

[foggy fractal]

those look more like ammonite fossils

[rocky quartz]

speaking of ammonite i have a picture of it

[foggy fractal]

we know that the void is the fixation of the family of snail shaman in pharloom, though they said that they haven't been down to the abyss themselves, besides that we don't really know any further connections between them

[rocky quartz]

they're LYING

the shaman lied to hornet about the trap

we cant trust them

[foggy fractal]

The shamans didn't lie about the trap

they didn't say that there wouldn't be void involved

based on their dialogue it seems like they worked under the assumption that Hornet knew void was involved too, so its not like they withheld information maliciously

[hazy abyss]

bruh they didnt tell her at all, THATS a massive problem, you dont just tell someone to trigger a trap to catch something for it to end up being a massive pit to the endless void n abyss, WITHOUT telling them at all and "assuming" they know

[muted lantern]

In their defense, hornet clearly identifies caretaker as a snail early on, so he assumes hornet knows the whole deal with them. However, since hornet is from hallownest, where the void is sealed by powerful wards, and the knowledge of it is likely hidden. the shamans of her kingdom did not get the same access to the void, and likely did not share the same interests as the pharloom ones. Thus causing her to not know what the other shamans assume is common knowledge.

[stray fog]

Can you send a screenshot

[rocky quartz]

smth like this

[stray fog]

Are those unique to the abyss?

Because they look like generic wall fossils

[muted lantern]

I think these are mainly based on like old fossils of like extinct species and shit. which are seen pretty widespread in hallownest.

[foggy fractal]

sure, but my point is that they didn't lie and can be trusted with their words

[rocky quartz]

true but have you seen coral gorge

its fossils is like those carboniferous worms

while this is ammonite

[pale narwhal]

coral gorge?

[rocky quartz]

yeah

clueless

[foggy fractal]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Cut_Content_(Silksong)/Areas#Red_Coral_Gorge

[visual glacier]

Why is the embed showing the wrong page lol

[foggy fractal]

no idea

[pale narwhal]

considering the pinstress and khann fight it seems less like a cut area and just an early iteration of Karak and the blasted steps

[visual glacier]

That’s exactly what it is

Pal

[pale narwhal]

well then its mislabelled

[visual glacier]

Yeah, I can bring it up with the wiki team

For the cut content page

[narrow horizon]

It's blasted steps + sands of karak in the past

what they used to look like

[jagged bobcat]

is there any traces of old hollow knight and the knight himself in sk?

didnt start the game yet

maybe i should find it myself

[foggy fractal]

yeah go find out yourself, we will tell it to you straight here since this channel has no spoiler rules

[rocky quartz]

honestly

i know coral gorge doesnt look remotely lore related

but it does have such hype moments and aura

it looks so good from the preview

[stray fog]

There are some lore connections

[silk dirge]

i think coral gorge will be mourned forever

i remember it was one of the areas i was determined to find

finding khann all dried up was a moment

i was like "HES RIGHT THERE ITS THE BOSS FROM THE FIRST TRAILER DO SOMETHING"

[tepid gate]

rest in peace king 😔

[muted lantern]

Guys, the pilgrimage used to be sooo much goddamn easier

The elevators that extend from the blasted steps bellway, lead all the way down to mosshome, just above bone bottom. When they once functioned, they probably carried pilgrims most of the way up.

[lethal burrow]

A waterfall probably used to flow down there when karak was around

[muted lantern]

the elevators would allow pilgrims to skip this entire section of the climb.

[lethal burrow]

I don't think so, because the bridge at the start of the game wasn't originally broken

[muted lantern]

the bridge seemed to be only a thin strip in the middle, with gaps around where what seems to be elevator chains dangling from above.

[lethal burrow]

The thing that bugs me is that there's no buttons for it anywhere.
The elevators read like prison cages to me much more

[muted lantern]

the elevators might not have been for pilgrims, but maybe for the easy transport of resources from the docks and their mines.

[muted lantern]

the same sprites are used for most transport elevators throughout the game

[lethal burrow]

Yeah, but all of those elevators have pressure plates or levers

[muted lantern]

they could have been operated from the blasted steps bellway, which seems to be a terminal for the elevators, with them lining the halls and mechanisms within. there could be a room where its operated we don't see like ballows diving bell terminal. The lack of buttons might imply they were not intended for everyones use, but only allowed for specific scheduled transports of things like resources from deep docks or travelling denizens of the citadel, but not permitted for pilgrims.

[slow locust]

I just realized there's rules

sorry

[little bone]

i was just about to steal it 🔥

[jade skiff]

methinks hmm hmmm I mean, widow WAS a weaver?

[jade skiff]

what?

[lethal burrow]

that's not a meme tho it's genuinely plausible that widow got her carpet from the fayforn

[muted lantern]

plus i don't see why they'd just dangle prisoners around like that not just in the blasted steps but all along the route through the entire kingdom. when they have the slab, plus if it was a prison i think wed see more corpses in there, when theres only a few in spots where it looks like the elevators dropped and killed the bug inside. (the slab also has a specific model for their cages which are similar, so I don't know why they wouldnt use that for the model of the elevators in the central gorge)

[lethal burrow]

Fair enough

[muted lantern]

Im trying to check all the wardenfly cages to make sure they arent similar

[lethal burrow]

you've convinced me. If they were really prison cells, there would be more bodies.

[muted lantern]

I remember seeing the wardenflies kidnapping stillkin in the cages, i don't remember if the cages looked like the elevators.

forgive the blurry ass image, but these cages seem similar but a lot smaller

but all the blasted steps ones are much more square like the shellwood elevators

[lethal burrow]

I wonder why they stopped the cages though

Elevator, I mean

was it simply disrepair? I figure they would've wanted more hands for the underworks at the very least.

[muted lantern]

theres also cages like this in the slab, but they seem to be the same, just with their tops flattened for gameplay purposes.

but i cant find any elevator style ones

[muted lantern]

I imagine disrepair, with the haunting I imagine deliveries stopped being of import, nobody was expanding the city anymore, nor did gms need to feed her subjects.

plus pilgrims dying in their climb only serves to benifit her.

[twin dragon]

gms had no control over the citadel

it would have needed to benefit the conductors

due to the seemingly gilded and overdecorated look of those cages

or elevators

wtv

[muted lantern]

It was the choristers that brought hornet to the citadel, servants of the citadel, who are explicitly stated to be serving grand mother silk. None of the game would have happened if gms didn't have influence over the citadel.

[twin dragon]

She wouldn't have made any renovations

plus the haunting is relatively recent compared to literally everything else in the citadel's history

[twin dragon]

they only serve her due to being haunted

"serve"

[muted lantern]

yes? thats what im saying

you said gms has no control of the citadel, the haunting gives her control

[twin dragon]

She still really doesn't have control over it

the citadel went silent

she isn't doing anything with it

as she should since its made to keep her asleep

[muted lantern]

Shes using the citadels forces to kidnap hornet, but idk what anything ur saying is going against what i said which was that the elevators fell into disrepair because theres no one but the haunted to maintain it, and gms has no reason to influence them to do so.

[twin dragon]

Makes sense i misunderstood you

i js woke up give me a break💔

[muted lantern]

lol

all good

[visual glacier]

Yeah common misconception, most people think Joe is controlling the citadel

[muted lantern]

Joe mama?

[visual glacier]

You caught me

[whole holly]

soon Plasmium God will be controlling citadel, hopefully

[whole holly]

and Rebuild post act 3 Pharloom

weirdly enough i don't think we will see Lifeblood Higher Being in this game , because it looks like Team Cherry is trying to expand story to have it's own narrative, it spans across two games and i think third game might be about it

[dusky badger]

why does she look depressed?

[neat scroll]

Tired and in pain more likely

[muted lantern]

She's been holding off hordes of voided bugs from destroying bellhart. She's exhausted

[dusky badger]

makes sense

[cunning drift]

hi i just thouth of this but phantom is in the exoust organ but when you leave it there are silk eating maggots but phantom is made from silk so grandmother silk send her there to die

[lethal burrow]

I don't think grandmother silk was involved in sending her anywhere

[visual glacier]

They were probably charged by the citadel to work there, it’s not stated whether they were surrounded by maggots on purpose or not

[lethal burrow]

it feels intentional

[whole holly]

i feel like Steel Assassin Sharpe is going to be like Lace combat wise

[whole holly]

it is clear that he serves masters who may just be Higher Beings

[craggy smelt]

I wonder if it will be that straight-forwards

they're clearly powerful

and there's more than one

I like the idea that they're a group of beings who have figured out various sorceries and techniques that enable them to do what they do, without strictly being higher beings

[whole holly]

That’s really interesting concept, but you are describing groups akin to weavers and shamans, masters are likely stronger than that

[lethal burrow]

I wonder how it would fit the theme of gods in the shackles of bugs

[shadow rampart]

https://tenor.com/view/silksong-hollow-knight-hornet-garama-guarana-gif-11792020015736795535

[visual glacier]

Stfu bruh

Nobody wants to see this gif in every channel

[shadow rampart]

😔

https://tenor.com/view/nuggetand-cat-car-cat-meme-cats-gif-13549128190129307854

[craggy smelt]

yeah, I'm really just trying to picture something different than a powerful god-being in charge of everything

having multiple masters is already a departure from that

besides Hallownest, it doesn't seem like HBs work together very often

if there was some cabal of bugs(?) who were just on a whole other level, to the point where they can threaten pale beings, I think that would be neat

[craggy smelt]

a delicious reversal of the natural order of things

[visual glacier]

“Besides hallownest” and it’s the only place with multiple higher beings that we’ve seen

[craggy smelt]

I mean more the kingdom, where Pale King and White Lady were united

Unn was off doing her own thing, Rad clearly wasn't on board, etc.

[visual glacier]

Rad is the only straggler

The rest were fine

[lethal burrow]

my question is what's so special about steel?

[visual glacier]

Even unn was fine with pilgrims way

[craggy smelt]

fine, but not like actively working together as a group is my point

the Masters are mutliple, and running the same steel society

Unn and Pale King and White Lady and Lifeblood Guy weren't part of a collective group working to the same goal

[craggy smelt]

Pale White, Void Black, Steel Grey

balancing force, yo

[lethal burrow]

What does that make grey root then?

[visual glacier]

It lasts

[craggy smelt]

secret Steel Master

[heavy gyro]

Stone will break and steel shall rust

[craggy smelt]

MM taking shots at steel society

[snow sonnet]

We shall travel to the city of steel and retrieve the steel heart

[whole holly]

we know that there were shades left from ancient civilization, ancient bugs becoming shades, maybe masters are shades or attained power in similar way, they want Chaos, Void is Chaotic by nature, if they are Shades in Steel Shell that would make sense for me personally but them being capable of "compressing" higher beings is really weird and difficult to explain

[random harbor]

Jinn - General - Listening again

...Its body, so soft... Fragile... Inferior built. Not like Jinn.
Jinn, does not take... hurt. Jinn shall last.

@glorkishjames used /npcs merchants name: Jinn category: General dialogue: Listening again

[lethal burrow]

how will we retrieve it?

[snow sonnet]

Elegy of the deep the original steel master

[visual glacier]

👆

[lethal burrow]

no dumbass, we're going to steal it

Come on I was setting you up for an obvious pun

[craggy smelt]

I do wonder about 'Ancient Shades'...
them being Void would also explain how they could threaten pale beings, pbs hate that stuff

[whole holly]

yes, even relying on First Light, which is either Everbloom/Delicate Flower or something else

[visual glacier]

I feel like people speculate too much on that egg, it’s a broken text and for all we know shade is just another word for void/darkness/emptyness ect

[whole holly]

it makes sense of why they are similar to knight and try to control bugs manipulating void

[heavy gyro]

sharpe is void confirmed

[lethal burrow]

I think compression is likely putting the higher beings in a magic trash compactor until they become or are inside the white gems, then they stuff them in what are pretty much robots

[lethal burrow]

Sharpe is void and the game is void of sharpe.

ICIC

[whole holly]

they are maybe referring to being hollowed out by void, which would makes sense with "void cleanse us" sentiment

[craggy smelt]

I think given how the Abyss tablets and the Arcane Egg reflect Pale King's spiel in the Abyss Memory, the idea of 'Shades' and 'Vessels' is pretty similar

[visual glacier]

Yeah but it’s still too specualtive imo

[whole holly]

they may be physical in nature

[visual glacier]

Just the mention of the word shade isnt enough

[whole holly]

but Knight does have confirmed Shade and it makes sense Ancient Bugs becoming Shades, Sibling Shades, meaning is most likely same

[visual glacier]

Maybe they are talking about the concept of the shade as said in the hunters journal, yk the black stain thing, leaving their regrets as they clean themselves

[stray fog]

I think compression is not literal compression, but they are compressing / reducing them to a lower status
Maybe by turning them into non-higher beings

[craggy smelt]

there's also the other bits 'no will, no self'
and the ancients wanting to cleanse themselves of emotion and undesirable elements
just like what PK wanted to do with the vessels

[whole holly]

and other in-game lore also supports it

[visual glacier]

Yes I agree with this theory

Just the word shade isn’t enough evidence though

[whole holly]

exactly, exact method and goal

[whole holly]

but other lore does suggest it too, though, that's not only basis we have.

[visual glacier]

Other lore like what

[whole holly]

what Crust King Yak and Me have been saying

[visual glacier]

Be specific

[craggy smelt]

it's not just the word 'Shade' in the arcane egg

[visual glacier]

Is it also the word goal?

[whole holly]

this

[lethal burrow]

then that's an odd word choice and it doesn't count for the weird white glowing gems

[stray fog]

Which gems?

[whole holly]

this too

[visual glacier]

"...No will... No self... Shade..." this could be interpreted so many ways, maybe them talking about void just not using the word void

Could also be something about lord of shades who knows

[stray fog]

It can't be much more directly implied

[lethal burrow]

actually, the gems look more murky and black than glowing, but they still look prominent and important

[stray fog]

Team cherry doesn't do it so directly

[whole holly]

but term does also apply to Vessels, same process is implied as what happened to vessels if that was their goal

[visual glacier]

Maybe their “regrets” become a shade when they get “cleansed”

It would make sense

[whole holly]

Lord of Shades unifies Void under it's will, so kind of confusing, No Will, No Self, Shade makes Ancient Civilization and Vessels too similar for it not to be actual shade

[visual glacier]

I just don’t think there’s enough evidence

[lethal burrow]

Maybe it's like Rain World

[stray fog]

Why do they have mouths

Weirdos

[stray fog]

No spoilers pls

[visual glacier]

It could say “when the ancient civilization bugs get cleansed, they become a form similar to the shade and siblings”

[stray fog]

That kinda dialogue will never happen in hk

[visual glacier]

It is much more direct though

[craggy smelt]

yeah, I don't think they'll be that explicit

[lethal burrow]

ok.

I'll only say that there's some parallels

[whole holly]

i mean you can think that but it can't be more direct, lore tables states common traits between Vessels and AC, it is weird to assume Shades for Vessels means different thing for each

[visual glacier]

I just showed an example of how it could be more direct

[stray fog]

You can spoiler mark it. Its fine

[heavy gyro]

Maybe PK got the idea for vessels from the AC

[stray fog]

That's what I believe

[visual glacier]

That’s the popular theory

[whole holly]

but it couldn't be more direct in relation to hollow knight universe lore

[craggy smelt]

the egg dialogue, and especially the second tablet really make me feel like it

Erase our fear,
Eliminate our desire,
To suffer no more,
Void, cleanse us.

(so cool)

[whole holly]

maybe

[stray fog]

Yeah this is what I was trying to say

[whole holly]

yeah

[craggy smelt]

PK didn't have any original ideas

[visual glacier]

It definitely could, each arcane egg is said to contain ALOT of info so it could be unrelated

[twin dragon]

The abyss has no will of its own, it only has the instinct to destroy shit

[craggy smelt]

our particular egg is almost indecipherable its true

[whole holly]

why wouldn't vessels and Ancient Bugs be similar they document same process vessels have gone through

[whole holly]

i am aware, it has basic nature/properties, unless given Form or Focus

[visual glacier]

Vessels were likely inspired by the ancient bugs, I don’t think the pale king intended on anything to do with the shades considering the way kingsmoulds die

[twin dragon]

As for why TK slashes the tendrils in sotv...

I have concluded to the answer that...

Tk is just fucking mad

[stray fog]

Not this again 😭 /j

[twin dragon]

I gave the answer it shall not be discussed further

[whole holly]

well, yes they have different goals, one wants vessel with shade intact and other wants to achieve shade state

[visual glacier]

You state that confidently because you have already accepted a theory as a fact

[lethal burrow]

||hollow knight ancient Civilization is doing with void what Rain World fans thought Rain World ancient civilization was doing with void|| It's very funny.

[visual glacier]

It’s possible, there’s just not enough evidence

[craggy smelt]

I wonder... if the steel hearts turn out to be Void in there, was PK trying to duplicate them when creating the Kingsmoulds?
and moved on to the concept of the vessels/Shades

[craggy smelt]

I never really got into Rain World but it keeps coming up
guess I'll look into it at some point...

[visual glacier]

Maybe? Probably not because there’s 0 evidence

[whole holly]

some people think that creatures/tendrils in are the Shades from AC

[twin dragon]

They kinda just apply the liquid on themselves

[stray fog]

He must have known about the steel masters

Because hornet knows about them

[twin dragon]

in one way or another

talking abt both ancients/benefactors and void civilazations

[craggy smelt]

PK didn't have any original ideas
probably stole buzzsaws from city of steel

[visual glacier]

It would mean that the shades did infact still have a will

[stray fog]

The tendrils are void choosing a form

So it doesn't work out with that theory imo

[whole holly]

well, it is most likely case, they talk about Shade at the end of sentence, game heavily implies they either want to have or become shade, but fact that they were being hollowed out/cleased by AC, is documented and basically confirmed to be same as vessels process

[stray fog]

I wouldn't call it basically confirmed

[visual glacier]

The siblings are the void inside the dead children of the pale king and the white lady hanging on because of their will

[craggy smelt]

so, what I think about the whole 'no will' thing
I think it's not meant to be literal, but it means the removal of Dream Essence
because shades & siblings don't have any - so it's as if there is 'no mind to think' etc.
and why they appear 'Empty' to certain beings (like Radiance)

[whole holly]

Weavers do say that, Void Tendrils are Void given Form, Shades are Void given Form basically

[visual glacier]

How do you know that shades don’t have essence? You can’t kill them

[twin dragon]

They dont have a will per say

[lethal burrow]

I'm more talking about the purpose than the physical application

[twin dragon]

nor a mind

[visual glacier]

They definitely do

[blissful harbor]

they do

[whole holly]

me too, they have no individuality, not meant to be no sense of self or literal void liquid

[stray fog]

Do they have dream nail dialogue? (I forgot)

[twin dragon]

which shades

[random harbor]

Hunter's Journal: Sibling

Description:
Fragment of a lingering will.

@glorkishjames used /journal name: Sibling text: Description

[blissful harbor]

they’re literally described as a fragment of a lingering will

oops

[twin dragon]

oh

I mean

they do

but so few of it

[visual glacier]

They don’t, they get defeated the same way when you use it

[stray fog]

The will vs no will shit is genuinely confusing

[craggy smelt]

if you hit them with the dream nail, they are instantly defeated and don't give any dream nail dialogue (unlike something like Collector)

[whole holly]

still implies Will reduction

[twin dragon]

it's basically non existent

[blissful harbor]

well yes, it’s a fragmented

[visual glacier]

It’s existent tho

[blissful harbor]

that’s what that means

[twin dragon]

Very very few of it

[whole holly]

i am aware

[twin dragon]

They're basically at the point of decay and becoming one with the void

[visual glacier]

It still exists, it’s still relevant

[twin dragon]

They don't show capacity to have a will that's significant enough

[lethal burrow]

Would you believe Rain World has ||a void sea beneath the world and an ancient civilization that tried to escape life and reincarnation with it and also there's something called Void Weaver||

[visual glacier]

Significant enough for what?

[twin dragon]

For them to counteract the voidheart or do anything that differs from usual void shit

[visual glacier]

Why would they do that?

[twin dragon]

fym why would they do that

because they have a will

[visual glacier]

I agree that they probably don’t have the will to resist the void heart, unlike the collector

[twin dragon]

if they had enough of it

[twin dragon]

Or THK

[craggy smelt]

sounds like they were just ripping off Hollow Knight
a game that came out one month before
loser devs! weak!

[visual glacier]

Thk isn’t a shade

[twin dragon]

in dnm he is

are we deadass

[visual glacier]

And working together with the knight

[twin dragon]

It's doing his own thing

[visual glacier]

Also

[twin dragon]

it would be in the void pool

[whole holly]

they don't have will in sense that bugs do, they have fragment of will reduced of void, and maybe no will was exactly what AC was trying to achieve and viewed it as not having will

[twin dragon]

They have a fragment of whatever will they would have were they not voided

[whole holly]

but not to extent that AC can perceive, their understanding of will was likely material sense of self

[twin dragon]

AC were trying to free themselves of sin idfk

its weird

[craggy smelt]

the removal of Soul and Essence, the qualities that make a bug a person
Life and Dreams

[visual glacier]

Zote doesn’t dream

[blissful harbor]

what makes you think void removes essence

[whole holly]

but it would make sense it that's what they perceived as not having will

[stray fog]

The ancient civilization could have been wrong about the "no will" part too

[blissful harbor]

if anything it does the opposite

it like readily combines with it

[twin dragon]

Essence is what makes up one's mind

iirc

[whole holly]

exactly, or they perceived shades as having no will, even it that's technically not true

[blissful harbor]

yes, and given enough time
like vessels and collector, it will start to combine with the mind of whatever bug

not erase it

or kill it whatever

[twin dragon]

Having almost no will would be similar ish to having no will

[craggy smelt]

in some cases, but Shades show a lack of it, as opposed to void beings like the Collector that pulled Essence from another bug's mind

[blissful harbor]

well yes kill it but not the mind

[whole holly]

mind removal removes capacity to have essence

[twin dragon]

You just repeated what i said

[whole holly]

i was agreeing with you

[blissful harbor]

wym shades show a lack of it?
they’re faded imprints ofc they do

[stray fog]

I feel like whenever you mention void having no will, people are gonna jump you with "it has some will", regardless of what the original point was about

[lethal burrow]

By the way, I think it was deduced prior. That essence is partially comprised of soul in some capacity.

[twin dragon]

They're part of the void pool in dnm, they act exactly like the void, are led by the voidheart

[twin dragon]

The void as a whole it doesn't

[whole holly]

maybe that's void's nature to feed on it, hence why kingsmoulds and collector have essence and soul to some extent as vessels as well

[blissful harbor]

that doesn’t contradict what i said

[twin dragon]

it seems to actually suck off the will out of things

[twin dragon]

They don't show any significant sign of having a will

they don't do anything

[blissful harbor]

i don’t think you understand what i’m saying

[visual glacier]

It has some form of mind control at the very least

[whole holly]

yes, they are functionally lacking will

[deft wagon]

What would you call the houses in which the Pinstress resides? Would it be accurate to call them ‘hot-air-balloon houses’ or would that type of structure be called something else? Since in the game files certain portions of the sprites used for those houses are referred to as umbrellas

[twin dragon]

Yeah, since the void is seemingly led by instinct

[visual glacier]

Balloon houses or something

[whole holly]

hut seems witchy, maybe lair?

[twin dragon]

Balls

[stray fog]

You get the point

Sometimes the discussion of will vs no will is not even needed, but it starts and derails the whole conversation

Not saying that it is needed or unneeded right now, its just something I've noticed

[twin dragon]

People usually jump to vessels

but they're not the same

Anyways this is the 383883th time that a hk lore thing has been discussed in ss lore

That channel is dead so

[blissful harbor]

who knew two games in the same universe would share lore

[stray fog]

It was originally involved the pharloom abyss lore tablets and egg too

[snow sonnet]

In reference to how silksong has 0 lore compared to tons of hk lore

[twin dragon]

Silksong's abyss lore is mostly hk lore for obvious reasons

[whole holly]

plus AC is involved with both games

[stray fog]

True ig

[twin dragon]

We discuss the foundation of the lore, doesn't mean there's less😭

[stray fog]

There's less left ambiguous, that's for sure

[twin dragon]

and "tons of hk lore" is mostly ambiguous bullshit

as it's straightforward when it isn't ambiguous bullshit

[stray fog]

They mentioned a lot of stuff just once in hk and it never got concluded (deepnest's king, the nightmare realm's map, battle of blackwyrm, etc.)

[twin dragon]

They don't elaborate on any of that

Silksong has city of steel shit BUT we might see updates with lore shit related to it

[stray fog]

And its not something that's only mentioned once or twice

There are multiple steel tidbits

[blissful harbor]

pretty much confirmed with sharpe coming back

[twin dragon]

Doesn't have to be the city doe

But i rlly fucking hope it is or else im storming Tc

[whole holly]

where is City of Steel mentioned multiple times other than Weaver being captured under it?

[stray fog]

The steel masters are mentioned

Compression

Vassals

Their relation to void is implied

[blissful harbor]

the actual city is only mentioned there afaik, the rest is about the masters and Zi/sula

[craggy smelt]

i think we'll go to steel city

and live there

it'll be our new house

[snow sonnet]

I don't think city of steel will be dlc
However Sharpe and his folks will be used for further setup

[whole holly]

yeah, i thought that would be answer

[stray fog]

I wonder where hornet lived in hallownest

Was she homeless

[whole holly]

me too

[blissful harbor]

they come in for pharloom bay dlc

[whole holly]

maybe she was "kinda homeless"

[blissful harbor]

she wandered around

[craggy smelt]

hell yeah

[whole holly]

that's also likely where alchemist found Lifeblood, Lifeblood Sprite or something like that in cut content, i wish we also saw Caravantina

[craggy smelt]

lifeblood spiiiiiire

[stray fog]

What's that

Caravantina?

[craggy smelt]

you take a submarine to get to it

caravantula

[stray fog]

You take a zoteboat

[craggy smelt]

a zotemersible

[blissful harbor]

from the name sounds like an alternate fleatopia

[stray fog]

I still don't know

[craggy smelt]

caravan tarantula, the original fast travel NPC

[stray fog]

Spider riding spider

[craggy smelt]

some kind of spider guy, silkless, would've gotten caught up in silk in a couple of places

replaced by Bell Beast, I guess

caravantina sounds like a mobile halfway home

[wide dew]

to me it seems to have been more like a side fast travel system, like the ventrica are

[stray fog]

Also why is there a ventrica straight to gms

Wouldn't want pilgrims to go there, right?

[craggy smelt]

it was for citadel personel only

[wide dew]

there is a lever that you can only open from the GMS side as well

[stray fog]

Makes sense

[whole holly]

guys what actually is Fayforn?

[wide dew]

a bigger form of the driftlin

[whole holly]

now that i think about it, Driftlin don't have needolin dialogue and neither does Fayforn

[wide dew]

driftlin do have needolin dialogue

Glidey! Glidey! Glidey!
Mother, mother, gleam so brightly...
Lightly, lightly, oh so lightly...
Drifty, drifty, oh so nicely...

the "mother" is probably fayforn herself

[lethal burrow]

a bird

[whole holly]

i didn't know that, that's interesting, fact that their mother gleams is interesting and would suggest Fayforn is higher being, since she was Glow but do we see it?

[wide dew]

just gleaming alone doesn't make someone a higher being

[whole holly]

she isn't "just gleaming"

[wide dew]

what else is she doing

[whole holly]

she seems to be ancient, mr mushroom was talking with her

[wide dew]

mister mushroom talks to hornet as well

[whole holly]

sure but Hornet is also unique in her own way

[wide dew]

i don't think "mister mushroom talking" is related to higherbeingness

[whole holly]

Weaver's were interested in Fayforn and built passages and a tuning fork into the mountain for the purpose of communing with her.

[whole holly]

i think it is

[wide dew]

that seems to just indicate her being powerful

things can be powerful but not quite the level of a higher being

e.g. crust king khann

[whole holly]

well she may be higher being, i am not saying she undeniably is though

some things just suggest it, that's all

[copper fiber]

I like to think groal is a frog and crawfather is a regular sized bird because I like the idea of a spider becoming strong enough to slay vertebrates

[wide dew]

spiders do actually do that irl

[copper fiber]

exactly

I really wish fayforn was a bird but she’s confirmed to be another large moth apparently

[wide dew]

confirmed by what exactly

[copper fiber]

I don’t know but apparently it is

if it’s not then I’m going to headcanon it as a dove

[heavy gyro]

It doesnt even have a beak

[wide dew]

compare

[copper fiber]

many of the bugs are not scientifically accurate

[copper fiber]

this one doesn’t have legs

[wide dew]

yeah and the eyes are different slightly but the body markings are the same

[copper fiber]

I see similarities in the head though

[wide dew]

and the horns

well i suppose that's on the head

[dusky bay]

In hollow knight the lifeblood insects look like the orange ones from the radiance
So does that mean plasmium can infect like how the radiance infection was going?

Since in hollow knight enemies mutated like the ones in wormways

[quartz spruce]

Nah, Groal's a bug. Too many legs and wings to be a frog. He's just a frog like bug just as the Craws are bird like bugs.

I have to say though, not sure I like the departure from bug designs in silk song. It doesn't really feel consistent with the first came.

[copper fiber]

bug doesn’t really mean much because hollow knight misclassifies many, many animals as bugs

“bug” basically means “person”

[dusky bay]

Lifeblood is a parasite

[quartz spruce]

Well, that's in common parlance too. When people say bug, they aren't referring to the order Hemiptera. They mean any small terrestrial arthopod, which includes spiders. Which aren't even insects.

[opaque pier]

Whats their name again?

[copper fiber]

I still want groal to be a frog because it’s nice to think about