sk-lore

[silk dirge]

cindril weavers returning would be so funny

[foggy fractal]

nooooo not based :C

[ancient sinew]

The rule of another pale being

[past cypress]

"Freedom" living in Deepnest ain't freedom bruh, there's a reason Australia was a prison

[stray fog]

I am a believer of the theory that the hallownest Weavers are the absolom weavenest Weavers

So the hk weaver would have some void related role

[limpid summit]

His writing is this fire?

[silk dirge]

"ok lets see how they dealt with gms- THEY DID WHAT IN WHITEWARD??!!??"

[wise sand]

Shakra quest is literally just: explore the whole + go to bilewater for a bit

[sinful nimbus]

Why do I need to buy all the maps 💔

[ancient sinew]

So actually I would disagree with Star

[sinful nimbus]

This game has so many rosary sinks

[limpid summit]

Worst retcon ever

[ancient sinew]

Why would the adult weaver need to follow the trend of the oppressed becoming the oppressors when she knew something other than oppression

[stray fog]

?

[ancient sinew]

There would be no need to perpetuate the cycle

[sinful nimbus]

Its back in Pharloom

[past cypress]

First of all the Hallownest Weavers ran away from Pharloom but we don't know when

[ancient sinew]

She would instead encourage Hornet to become a ruler more like her father

[past cypress]

The Weavers could've ran well after they or the conductors took the rule

[sinful nimbus]

Oh my god

[cedar skiff]

see id agree with the “why should things that are important to understanding the story be skippable” but then phantom is literally skippable so what now

[stray fog]

They returned to pharloom when the infection started

So they must not be aware of the haunting
So they went to hallownest before the haunting

[limpid summit]

Phantom and Lost Garmond are both skippable

[cedar skiff]

whenever i remember that i seethe

[sinful nimbus]

They should be skippable because on a second playthrough I already understand the story

[past cypress]

When did they "return to Pharloom" what?

[cedar skiff]

garmond is irrelevant in my mind

[wise sand]

So true king

[ancient sinew]

The Hallownest Weavers returning has probably been retconned

[limpid summit]

Void threaded creatures would probably die like infected creatures right

[sinful nimbus]

They're literally just unwelcome interruptions to gameplay atp

[wise sand]

Oh I'm far behind

[stray fog]

The weaversong charm description says that they went back to pharloom

[limpid summit]

The weaversong description

[silk dirge]

yeah

[limpid summit]

Song of farewell from the weavers who returned to their old home

Or some

[ancient sinew]

They’d have absolutely no reason to return and doing so would contradict the Cindril Tablet

[sinful nimbus]

Everything is a retcon to this channel oh my god

[wise sand]

Bro just play the game

[cedar skiff]

such things are easy to accidentally miss Especially if you arent familiar with the genre and team cherrys philosophy is the game being accessible to casual people. so i can see why they didnt do it

[ancient sinew]

They’re also nowhere to be seen making the only viable explanation that they somehow died on the road

[wise sand]

They're not that expensive

[silk dirge]

which is funny bc theres like dead weavers in weavers den

[sinful nimbus]

No I don't like it

[wise sand]

I never had to grind for them

[ancient sinew]

Which is uh not a very interesting conclusion lmao

[stray fog]

A possible explanation is that they didn't know that pharloom went to shit, and they were expecting a fully functioning citadel when they returned

[sinful nimbus]

What?

[wise sand]

Or anything really beside some bellhome upgrades in act 3

[sinful nimbus]

If someone was concerned about missing important details they wouldn't skip the cutscene

[cedar skiff]

what do you mean what

[ancient sinew]

They left pre-Citadel, they would have assumed GMS was still in power

[cedar skiff]

Ok you gotta to be more evident on what you consider a cutscene

[stray fog]

Do you know about the theory that the hallownest Weavers were those who lived in weavenest absolom after they returned to pharloom

[cedar skiff]

because earlier you were talking about the shakra quest which like

is not a cutscene?

[sinful nimbus]

If it restricts control of my player I don't like it

[ancient sinew]

Unless they somehow had the means to sense what was happening halfway across the world but in that case they would also know about the haunting

[cedar skiff]

im just so contused by this excellent ragebait

[stray fog]

I thought it was pre haunting, not necessarily pre citadel

[sinful nimbus]

Shakra has you playing music for like 30 seconds 💔

[ancient sinew]

It’s pre citadel

[limpid summit]

“I ran into another traveller as I made my way down here. I tried to call out to her as she dashed past but she barely even glanced in my direction. Not an appreciator of maps like you and I, obviously.”

[foggy fractal]

nah that music was fire !

[limpid summit]

So Cornifer just lied

[ancient sinew]

The tablet very clearly talks about running to escape GMS

[limpid summit]

Death of the author

[cedar skiff]

oh no my 30 seconds on speed run dot com

fuck my chungus life

[ancient sinew]

that wouldn’t make sense if GMS was asleep

[cedar skiff]

kai lai lai lai lai lai

[silk dirge]

lai lai lai ooshkado

[foggy fractal]

🗣️

[sinful nimbus]

Its good

[ancient sinew]

No that sounds really dumb though

[cedar skiff]

music is power

[sinful nimbus]

I like the cutscene I just want to skip it

[foggy fractal]

fair

[stray fog]

True

[ancient sinew]

The Absolom Weavenest is implied to be the oldest by far which wouldn’t track

[limpid summit]

For a theory I replayed that music like twenty times

I don’t like it anymore

[ancient sinew]

Also why would they go there of all places

[stray fog]

Wait what

[cedar skiff]

what was the theory

im curious now

[limpid summit]

Seth and Shakra were from the same tribe 💔

[cedar skiff]

ohh

[limpid summit]

I was trying to find similarities in their songs there are none

[stray fog]

Void based gms killing inspired by hallownest

[cedar skiff]

its ok comparing attack sprites has me believe pinstress interacted with the bees

[sinful nimbus]

Seth sings his own theme pretty sure

[foggy fractal]

anyway how did Shakra's master fight
throwing those balls ? we do see a few on the ground and along with dead enemies in the tunnel before

[limpid summit]

Yeah probably

[cedar skiff]

you were bigger than the whole sky

[wise sand]

Source?

[limpid summit]

Guardian memento is also Buddhist just like Shakra tribe motifs

[foggy fractal]

yep

[limpid summit]

It’s that and the attack that’s it

They probably aren’t related

[limpid summit]

I like this

[foggy fractal]

shakra did say that she had some work to do in order to match her master's prime yeah

[ancient sinew]

Forge Daughter says nobody has used the Diving Bell in forever also the Weavenest is in the worst state out of the ones we see and is the only one without functional servitors furthering the idea that it’s been withered by age

[silk dirge]

yeah didnt the weaver spire literally fall

[stray fog]

The hallownest Weavers could have returned a long time ago

Before silksong

Even if they didn't make weavenest absolom, the theory still works if they just lived there

[ancient sinew]

Not only would a ridiculous amount of time need to have passed between HK and SS for this to work but it’s still contradicted by the Cindril Tablet and ultimately the complete lack of evidence means it’s a worthtless theory

[stray fog]

😭

Ill just make it my headcanon

[ancient sinew]

You do you

idk what’s so interesting about the Hallownest Weavers returning to a place they were desperate to get away from and had no reason to return to only to end up living in an abandoned Weavenest at the bottom of the world for no reason and then dying out without leaving a trace

[stray fog]

Another reason for this theory was the similarity between foresight and farsight

[ancient sinew]

There is no similarity though

Farsight is clearly analagous to World Sense

Which is an ability many powerful beings in this universe would appear to have some variation of

Foresight is described as a Wyrm specific ability

[stray fog]

Farsight looks like a wyrm's head, and wyrms have foresight

Farsight sounds like foresight

[ancient sinew]

…

Farsight is also a portmanteau of the words “far” and “sight”

[wise sand]

Ehh

The other weavenests wouldn't have been opened in forever also

[ancient sinew]

As for it looking like a Wyrm’s head I don’t even know what to say

[wise sand]

And the abyss is a pretty harsh environment

[ancient sinew]

Exactly, the fact that those aren’t literally falling apart would imply Absolom is even older…

[silk dirge]

its not really that similar tbh

[limpid summit]

Compression sounds like compress and sun

[silk dirge]

like its probably a coincidence

[limpid summit]

Was rad compressed

[silk dirge]

steel city hydraulic press is my #1 most anticipated thing

i hope i get to fight a 5 axis cnc mill in steel city that would be fire

[rough sandal]

So uh I know this is probably a very original question here

But what's the deal with all the bells

Is it ever elaborated on

[silk dirge]

something with the religion

[rough sandal]

smh

[sinful nimbus]

Song keeps GMS asleep

The song from below the Citadel seems to travel up to it somehow my theory is that the Bellways do that

[rough sandal]

It better be explained in DLC or something

[ancient sinew]

The bells are an aesthetic choice mostly

They serve no real mechanical or narrative purpose

[rough sandal]

It's a bit odd that Team Cherry might leave something as omnipresent as that as just an aesthetic component

Bit disappointing really

[rough sandal]

Yeah that's what I was thinking

Where do they even get all the bronze from lmao

[ancient sinew]

This can be said about much of Silksong

[rough sandal]

💔

[sinful nimbus]

What do you think of my theory Gimmighoul

I think it makes them serve enough narrative purpose

[silk dirge]

i think team cherry is trolling us

[ancient sinew]

Well Pharloom had a thriving metalworking scene due to their proximity to a volcano

[silk dirge]

they sent misinformation to acmi

[rough sandal]

I suppose

[silk dirge]

team cherry sent a map to acmi with a date that map was almost certainly not from

[sinful nimbus]

What if acmi just typo'd it

[rough sandal]

But to make an entire town surrounded by a structure made entirely out of bells??

[silk dirge]

thats possible

[rough sandal]

It looks cool but it doesn't really make any sense

[blissful harbor]

they had too many leftover bells

better put them to good use

[silk dirge]

acmi has an absurd amount of typos lol

[rough sandal]

Maybe it was an economic bubble

That led to the collapse of the kingdom

[edgy nebula]

it makes sense theyd have bellhomes, making music even as you walk around in your home would be crazy

[rough sandal]

Like the ET videogame flop

[blissful harbor]

i like to think the song shrines were like one in a million bells
hence the overproduction

[ancient sinew]

This kingdom appears more advanced in metalwork than my own ever was, in great part due to the natural heat source at its base. Working in such an environment is an impressive feat.

[rough sandal]

They had to bury it in the desert

[rough sandal]

Well that explains it a bit

[rough sandal]

I guess

I haven't stumbled upon any song lore yet maybe it will make more sense down the line

[ancient sinew]

I think it’s terrible but then again your theories often are and I didn’t want to be rude so refrained from commenting but if you’re so desperate for my appraisal the least I could do is be honest

[sinful nimbus]

I'm sorry

[rough sandal]

It's just the contrast between a well integrated public transport system and "uhh... Bells and worms!"

Like ok bro

[blissful harbor]

i think a lot of the actual song shit was cut actually
rip song eater lair
silk takes a much stronger stage light and it’s so ass

[rough sandal]

At least they gave us the Wormways

[silk dirge]

ok theres no way thats a real exchange lol

that message did not read like something someone would genuinely say 💔

but idk either of you super well

[sinful nimbus]

Silk isn't good either

Its just Soul 2

[rough sandal]

That's why I hope it gets elaborated upon in the DLCs

[rough sandal]

True

[sinful nimbus]

Silksongfan's cruelty is very real

[rough sandal]

What is in the world of Silksong does feel much more polished at least

[rough sandal]

To compensate my headcanon is that after the Queen of Weavers ending Hornet uses the power of Pharloom to conquer the Song dynasty and found the Shaw dynasty in China 👍

Better than nothing ig

[timber pond]

Its what happens when you talk about something too much

[silk dirge]

this channel is an allegory for plasmium tbh

[timber pond]

Pepole will take your talk about "retcons" in bad faith and then morph it into a new definition.

Why are you surprised? Take a look around, its happened with every other word in the English diction.

[sinful nimbus]

I never thought about it like that

[unique canopy]

Fandom bubble convinces itself of something that isn't directly stated in the game, then when the sequel comes out anything that contradicts the fanon is called a retcon

[timber pond]

Its simple. Take a step back and think about WHY and for what purpose people say things.

[silk dirge]

like silksong has retcons to our knowledge sure but weavers returning doesnt seem like one to me

weavers could maybe have thought it was safe since a lot of time had passed

maybe they thought other weavers had figured it out

[timber pond]

When you begin to realize hollow knights missing context isn't a "retcon". its just missing context.

Will the context ever be given? No probably not, because thats not what Team Chery is interested in.

[silk dirge]

yeah yesterdays interview basically confirmed what i was thinking

our understanding of lore is very different from tc's

[timber pond]

I wouldn't say that with 100% certainty.

Its more like.... the diffrence between how a dog and a whale view the world

[cedar skiff]

can someone link me this interview 👀

[foggy fractal]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2025-11-28/the-makers-of-hollow-knight-silksong-aren-t-done-just-yet?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSIsImlhdCI6MTc2NDM3Njc1OCwiZXhwIjoxNzY0OTgxNTU4LCJhcnRpY2xlSWQiOiJUNkczNjFLR0NUSDAwMCIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQiOiJCMUVBQkI5NjQ2QUM0REZFQTJBRkI4MjI1MzgyQTJFQSJ9.frzbrfK-Qvq7f4KIROH5Ujhwebk0mVcG_7NDjTEeF5Y&embedded-checkout=true

[limpid summit]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2025-11-28/the-makers-of-hollow-knight-silksong-aren-t-done-just-yet

[blissful harbor]

why is it tryna make me pay to read

tf

[abstract rivet]

TC is doing interviews alot these days

Could this mean something

[lean temple]

They were desperate to escape the infection so there's also that factor

[abstract rivet]

most social interaction they had in 8 years trust

[blissful harbor]

it means they finally have time for them

[timber pond]

And to be fair, I personally, never gave a shit. The games give enough resolution. Except for ETV. Thats why I expect something for The Hollow Knight.

[limpid summit]

Personally I think they should have asked TC about the voicelines missing

Do we think shaw edino git gud will happen during climatic DLC moments

Or are they like the laugh

[silk dirge]

LION VILLAGE(FULL OF LIONS)

[limpid summit]

Fleeting echoes of a jaded hunter

Had never heard of lion village before this interview

I was a fake fan

[blissful harbor]

those are all hornet yelling slurs and insults at TK
which is why she doesn’t in SS

she’s matured

[timber pond]

They said they would communicate more frequently when it comes to DLC stuff in said interview. And it won't be that long.

[silk dirge]

ofc mods deleted the image

cant have any fun here

[foggy fractal]

we still have the lion image though

[lean temple]

The lion? It's still there?

[silk dirge]

oh wait

im stupid

im blind

[foggy fractal]

is she stupid ?

[silk dirge]

yes

[lean temple]

Quick to discredit our great and benevolent mod overlords

Smh

[sinful nimbus]

Famously woke Hornet Silksong

[limpid summit]

So TRUE

[sinful nimbus]

I mean

Better than Daughter of Hallownest ig

[silk dirge]

why doesnt hornet dialog have her lines like other characters

like how shakra says poshanka in her dialog

[lean temple]

Kadestre or smthg

[silk dirge]

vienta

[sinful nimbus]

Sharpe is a void construct so they don't have gender yea? Imagine how tough it would be to get a Gendered Child namedrop from them

[whole holly]

are we sure of that?

[lean temple]

I could've sworn they're gendered

[sinful nimbus]

No I made it up but it was required for the joke to work

[lean temple]

You lied to me

[lean temple]

I still haven't memorised her skong lines I need to get on that

There's EIRA ofc

[whole holly]

oke

[silk dirge]

VIENTA: the greatest champion of today

vs

SHAW: the greatest champion of yesterday

[limpid summit]

“So your journey finally ends, Gendered Child.”
Shakra steps out from the shadows
“That’s Gendered Child Wielding Needle to you…”

[snow sonnet]

1 of every hk character vs 1 billion lions

[sinful nimbus]

i am so glad they didn't bring back the og voice lines I think it would get on my nerves after 7 years of people spamming them

Garama being an exception ofc

[inner torrent]

Grand mommy silk is stronger than people think

[lean temple]

We could've had them remade.

[whole holly]

i mean we all think Steel Hearts are void internally because they are similar to Knight after acquiring voidheart and maybe they have control over void without having inner shade but that would be weird... or interesting

[lean temple]

The new garamas are nice

[silk dirge]

beast mode garama

[sinful nimbus]

Well TK is void before void heart

[silk dirge]

GARAMA

[sinful nimbus]

The masters are probably just higher beings

[snow sonnet]

I want reveal trailer Hornet back of her screaming all the time

[silk dirge]

yeah no this wouldve gotten annoying really fast

[lean temple]

Either that or equivalent in power but not inherently HBs

[limpid summit]

I think the voice lines are good

[honest sun]

wait what if architects made many sentinels to beat gms, can robots get haunted?

[limpid summit]

I wouldn’t mind the fan service ones being one time fun lines like when Hornet says “nawo” or whatever while knocking on Yarnaby’s door

That doesn’t come out anywhere else

[silk dirge]

apparently trobbio has like 77 voice lines

[rough sandal]

The fact that there was absolutely zero "shaw" is a crime tho

[sinful nimbus]

the heck is nawo

[rough sandal]

0/10

[snow sonnet]

And Hornet has less

[silk dirge]

yarnaby

when you knock on the door

NAO

[limpid summit]

“Get out here”

[whole holly]

well yeah, but i meant all steel hearts as whole like Steel Seer Zi, Steel Assassin Sharpe

[sinful nimbus]

iirc jinn says TK is similar to her masters not herself

[limpid summit]

Yeah

[silk dirge]

masters probably can control like steel or some shit

mfs are probably like 100 axis cnc mills or some shit

[sinful nimbus]

What if they fought exactly like Crust King Khann

[whole holly]

maybe if Steel Hearts are made of void it would be easy to masters to control them ig

[whole holly]

that's what i imagined

[foggy fractal]

probably lmao

[unique canopy]

Cog Core robots get haunted

[foggy fractal]

and they will summon lasers and shit like that one bug guy in coral

[silk dirge]

doesnt the sharpe assistant we see in reveal trailer look kinda like khann

[whole holly]

umm, what?

[foggy fractal]

limbs are similar but that's about it

[whole holly]

guys what are your favorite Old Hearts/Last Successors, mine is Nyleth, i don't know why but i love her screeches

[stray fog]

Karmelita

[silk dirge]

khann

[stray fog]

Goated OST

[whole holly]

makes sense i like her song

[silk dirge]

karmelita is the popular girl

but khann is cool

[snow sonnet]

Karmelita my queen

Khann my king

[whole holly]

that too, i love area inside memory

[stray fog]

The coral area is so beautiful

Its a shame it had to be redesigned for story and aesthetic reasons

[whole holly]

reason why i love Nyleth is that she is similar to Unn, in sense that she serves similar role to storyline, and i like her design as well as her shrine, Shrine Guardian Seth was super cool

[lean temple]

Karms, by far. I never would've expected I'd like her this much.

[whole holly]

Isma, Unn, Nyleth aren't expanded upon lorewise, i want to know about Plant Species Isma and Nyleth are part of, i love Plant gods honestly i want Next Game to have Plant Higher Being as Final Boss, i am tired of having amazing concepts as side characters

[limpid summit]

Khann has the most aura and Karmelita is the most interesting

I don’t mind the princes and Nyleth is eh imo

[whole holly]

i see why you think that

[limpid summit]

Bringing Phantom to Khann in the epilogue

[whole holly]

i disagree about Nyleth, she is interesting in her own way

[stray fog]

The prince was good because he came with an entire new region

[cedar skiff]

brining phantom to plot relevance in the epilogue

[whole holly]

i feel same way about Nyleth

[limpid summit]

Fair I think there’s interesting elements of her but I just don’t like what they did with Seth

He has very little lore

[whole holly]

i want Lifeblood Higher Being to be Plant Being, it makes too much sense, or Butterfly, i am saying this because some People seem to believe that Abyss Creature is not real Higher Being behind Lifeblood

[whole holly]

i can understand that

[limpid summit]

I was hesitant to speculate but I think the lifeblood infection means that’s the direction TC wants to go yeah

We’ll see how that plays out

[blissful harbor]

the abyss creature head could easily fit on a butterfly

[snow sonnet]

Honestly I like his little story post-fight but I feel like he def suffered from the act 3 rewrite

[whole holly]

i get that, personally i think Abyss Creature seems to be connected to ancient civilization, since ancient huge bugs in AC wanted to turn into shades and had connection to void, Abyss Creature seems to have commitment issues lol, given his body is black but eyes are blue

[whole holly]

personally i want protagonist to be Grimm

[blissful harbor]

lifeblood infection is an excuse to have a lifeblood vessel show up somewhere

lifeblood spire gonna go crazy

[lilac hedge]

broken vessel but with lifeblood would go crazy

[lean temple]

This also means there's a theoretical origin of Lifeblood still unknown, if it isn't Abyss Creature

[lean temple]

Zango wasn't that great of a fight

If they make better Lifeblood fights then sure

[stray fog]

Lifeblood looks cooler than the infection

[lean temple]

Although it seems Vessels are immune

[blissful harbor]

a dead vessel, ala broken vessel

[sinful nimbus]

I'd

[stray fog]

The infected vessels got infected because they weren't completely hollow

So a non-hollow vessel could also be infected with lifeblood

[sinful nimbus]

I don't know what I wou ld do

[lilac hedge]

I mean lifeblood is like in early stages of infecting ppl now, so if it took over we could see more stuff

[blissful harbor]

yk its gonna happen star

[sinful nimbus]

I think I'd cry

[lean temple]

I don't think I can do a purity discussion rn

[stray fog]

Lmao

[blissful harbor]

i don’t think lifeblood even works like that

doesn’t seem to be dream based

[lean temple]

Vessels are Void inside. They can't really be plasmified

[blissful harbor]

seems more like a literal infection this time

[lean temple]

It plasmifies your vitals, which Vessels DO NOT have

[stray fog]

Then how can the knight use lifeblood at all

[blissful harbor]

they have something akin, that’s how lifeblood core works

[lean temple]

Something with their shell

[blissful harbor]

it’s changed the knights vitals to lifeblood

[cedar skiff]

i hope the lifeblood infection doesnt focus on the bugs and their minds but instead focuses on how it affects and takes over the ecosystem because

1. i dont want another infection storyline
2. itd go well with what the games established themes

[lean temple]

HK ecology tldr: everything wants to kill you

[lean temple]

What vitals? The Void?

I know that's what it says

[blissful harbor]

or whatever is left in the shell

[lean temple]

It just doesn't make sense

[blissful harbor]

maybe some of the void

[lean temple]

Act 3 plan b, inject the whole Abyss with lifeblood

Given TK can hold an infinite amount of Lifeblood masks it's safe to say they are immune to its effects

They aren't really biological entities either

[frigid belfry]

team cherry confirmed mossbag is wrong and my lore views are objectively right

i always knew hornet was void

[lilac hedge]

what did mossbag get wrong im to lazy to watch his vids

[lean temple]

They didn't specify anythinf

They just don't like lore videos which present things in very solid, factual manners

Their view of the lore is less rigid amd more malleable

They've even said they sometimes disagree on the lore.

Basically their view of the lore is different than most of the community's.

[timber pond]

They didn't say he was wrong. They just said they like pepole discussing it over something being presented as a solid fact

So bassicaly what we do in here lul

[lilac hedge]

ohhhh

[frigid belfry]

they mentioned reading yt comments, so theres a 100% chance they read these channels

@sinful nimbus watch out

[timber pond]

They said they actually like looking in the comments of mossbags videos instead of watching them

[lean temple]

Team Cherry notice us 🙏

[lilac hedge]

ari gibson watchin sk lore losing his mind be like

[silk dirge]

hunters prowl the long grass

[stray fog]

Im actually ari gibson's alt account

[lean temple]

They could be any one of us

[lilac hedge]

i knew it

[stray fog]

Therfore, all of my theories are the truth

[timber pond]

They did indeed once upon a time when I asked them. But who knows if they do now. Priorities are diffrent

[sinful nimbus]

They have lurked during every slabfly discourse

[silk dirge]

i think silksongfan is actually team cherry only team cherry themselves would be fans of silksong

[timber pond]

Like, when this server was a fan server instead of an "official " one or whatever they looked at our discussions

Me and the like, 10 other people

[frigid belfry]

uncdox

[timber pond]

Look man, William just loves a good swamp ok. Who can blame em?

[cedar skiff]

they wouldnt disagree with me if i made lore videos because id be correct

also

[cedar skiff]

i wonder what heated discussion took place in that studio for so much finished content to be cut

[stray fog]

I just noticed that your pfp isn't a savage beastfly in its lava arena

[timber pond]

I personaly think they would like that Philosophy of hollow knight video that got made recently

Because the presenter comes to 5 diffrencmt conclusions

[cedar skiff]

😭

[frigid belfry]

for every conclusion we come to on team cherry creates 6 more

[cedar skiff]

i cant wait for floorless savage beastfly

[timber pond]

Most of them don't matter to be fair

[lean temple]

Oh can you send a link?

[frigid belfry]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89bJWBmInBQ&t=1387s&pp=ygUacGhpbG9zcGh5IG9mIGhvbGxvdyBrbmlnaHQ%3D

[cedar skiff]

those interviewers werent asking the right questions

wheres lace age discourse and green prince siblings?,

[frigid belfry]

they probably asked some stuff ari/william just didnt answer

[silk dirge]

why is hornet racist

[lean temple]

Tell us now what makes Pale Beings different

[timber pond]

Sharpe was the only one that mattered

[stray fog]

They probably won't drop lore so directly in an interview

[cedar skiff]

so what is a fathomless being

[frigid belfry]

they shouldve just asked me the questions, ari told me in a dream that i was correct

[cedar skiff]

honestly

i wish they had asked about the change for green prince death

i would have loved to hear what the thought process was and what drove them to the decision, whether it was the online responses to the fight or them themselves realising oh shit this is missing smth

[timber pond]

Its ussualy the later.

Except for that multibinder change for muckmaggots

[unique tangle]

I still can’t believe TC’s plan for act 3, true ending was always just to complete enough random side quests

I don’t believe it

[cedar skiff]

i think it makes sense storywise but the quests could have had more engaging gameplay mechanics rather than just collecting stuff for example

[unique tangle]

It had weird diegetic implications tho

For Hornet to get true ending she must learn to…

Be a good person? Actually help people out?

[cedar skiff]

its not about that

its not that hornet needs to learn to be selfless she needs to go out of the way to learn about pharloom and its residents

[frigid belfry]

its moreso of rejecting her biological nature of a pale being, and learning to overcome her views on being a bystander in other's suffering

[cedar skiff]

rather than going straight to its crown to find out about her own capture

[unique tangle]

Her character arc is her learning to actually be a helpful and nice person?? Only then can she get true ending

[stray fog]

Yeah

[frigid belfry]

kind of

[cedar skiff]

and so she grows fond of the kingdom which drived her to protect it

[stray fog]

Hornet is not a morally good person tbh

[frigid belfry]

thats the point of the story

[unique tangle]

It’s a weird roundabout way to go about it

[frigid belfry]

not really imo

[cedar skiff]

it doesnt simply boil down to her “learning to be nice”

[unique tangle]

Not exactly

[cedar skiff]

thats a really shallow way to put it

[unique tangle]

The story isn’t really clear about it

[frigid belfry]

multiple elements point time and time again that hornet has not been the best person in the world, but strives to be better

[sinful nimbus]

more silk and soul hate ❤️‍🩹

[frigid belfry]

she outright kills people (albeit in self defence) but its still murder in a sense

[silk dirge]

i mean in order for act 3 to make sense you need to establish hornet actually cares about pharloom instead of just wanting revenge at whoever captured her

it makes sense to me

[cedar skiff]

exactly

[sinful nimbus]

you debunked yourself in the same message

She's not doing anything wrong

[frigid belfry]

?

[stray fog]

Self defense is fine I think

[unique canopy]

She explicitly points this out if you try to leave in act 3. Her mission is over, but she's grown to care enough about Pharloom that she doesn't want to doom them to the void, especially when she's partially responsible for it

[frigid belfry]

there are ways she could avoid the kills she does, im simply saying she isnt morally perfect

[silk dirge]

yeah

[unique tangle]

There’s no acknowledgment of Hornet completing wishes leading to her becoming more fond of the land or its citizens or such. There’s no acknowledgment of Hornet being a bad person, she’s also equally guilty in act 3 with the princes and karm and lifeblood as she was prior.

The reading that it’s actually about such is an external reading.

[frigid belfry]

????

did we play the same game

[cedar skiff]

theres no classic good or bad moral dilemma within hornet, if anything its more about the two sides of her nature that drive her to different desires anyway

[cedar skiff]

bro did not read dialogue

[frigid belfry]

hornet outright says she becomes more attached to this lands inhabitants and will not watch another kingdom fall

[sinful nimbus]

I mean Caretaker dialogue is there but yes she's still a bad person in Act 3 and that's an issue

[dawn sluice]

heck it even starts before act three with the requirements for silk and soul needing a bunch of donations and nice favors

[cedar skiff]

hornet morality discourse and nobody has brought up slabflies yet

this channel is washed

[frigid belfry]

not that again

[unique tangle]

In a very throwaway sort of dialogue she says so but it’s barely acknowledged

[sinful nimbus]

Its not relevant but Hornet is a genocidal moron yeah

[frigid belfry]

??????????

[silk dirge]

slabfly discourse rabbit pointing to clock image

[frigid belfry]

she says this in the climax right before fighting ll

[dawn sluice]

mistaken genocidal moron is better then being genocidal moron on purpose

[unique tangle]

Her saying she’s grown attached does not align with how she actually acts in act 3 nor how the game portrays her in act 3

[frigid belfry]

river did we play the same game bro😭

you might have downloaded songsilk

[unique canopy]

If I'm personally not paying attention then it's "throwaway," the game needs to respect my personal lack of an attention span

[sinful nimbus]

Me when my hand slips and I accidentally write into my journal that eugenics would be ideal

[cedar skiff]

throughout act 3 hornet still is growing fond of pharloom. her initial drive for saving pharloom from the void was purely guilt but by the end she desires to see its people thrive

[unique tangle]

I’m saying it doesn’t actually align with what we are presented ingame

[dawn sluice]

does this happen often for you WITHOUT the hand slipping part?

[unique tangle]

She can say she has become fond of the land and its people but time and again she doesn’t display that

[cedar skiff]

?

[silk dirge]

i mean yeah act 3 has sillies but i think tcs intent was for hornet to care about pharloom

they just fumbled

[cedar skiff]

She displays that not only through helping them but literal outright statements from herself

what are you waffling about

[dawn sluice]

the 19 quests for silk and soul

[sinful nimbus]

?

[unique tangle]

Her ending in act 3 is just her fixing her mistake in act 2, pharloom is still stuck in a terrible system, lifeblood is on the horizon and the citadel hasn’t been resolved

Her saving lace and ending the void plight does not present Hornet as actually caring about the land and its people

[frigid belfry]

i dont know how we dont conclude hornet cares about pharloom's inhabitants

half of the game is her going out of her way to help people

[cedar skiff]

“ I share your hope, Sherma. Remember though that whatever is built next belongs not to the past, but to you.
Hornet: Your instincts are strong. Let it be those that guide you, rather than any reverence toward a kingdom's corpse. “

[silk dirge]

how is the citadel not resolved?

[stray fog]

How can she singlehandedly fix the system

[silk dirge]

the cycle of oppression is broken

[frigid belfry]

citadel is dead, gms is gone, no more haunting

[silk dirge]

she killed the source of it

[unique canopy]

She doesn't display that she cares about bone bottom pilgrims when she helps them out and donates to build up the settlement
She doesn't display she cares about bellhart when she helps them out and donates to build up the town
She doesn't display she cares about the songclave pilgrims when she helps them out and donates to build up the area
She doesn't display she cares about the fleas when she finds a large majority of them and locates a peaceful area for them to finally settle where they're not surrounded by threats
She doesn't display she cares about Pharloom when she spends an entire act finding a way to save them from a problem she created even though she outright states that she has nothing to personally gain from doing so

[frigid belfry]

the bugs in it will wake up and eventually rebuild themselves

[frigid belfry]

thanks for having literacy

[silk dirge]

lifeblood we can talk about

[dawn sluice]

what citadel?

[silk dirge]

but with gms gone i dont see how the citadel is a problem anymore

[dawn sluice]

and over half of the people inside it

[unique tangle]

The citadel ran on regardless of GMS

[cedar skiff]

“I have survived the fury of your land. I have borne its barbs and its blades, and I have seen wonder behind its dangers. I have survived the fury of your land. I have borne its barbs and its blades, and I have seen wonder behind its dangers. I have survived the fury of your land. I have borne its barbs and its blades, and I have seen wonder behind its dangers.”

[silk dirge]

most of the citadel is dead

they are only running off of the haunting

[cedar skiff]

ok why is it just the same thing 3 times

[sinful nimbus]

You left out the best part

[frigid belfry]

I have survived the fury of your land. I have borne its barbs and its blades, and I have seen wonder behind its dangers.

[frigid belfry]

me when i lie

[cedar skiff]

three times for it to get through to the people in the back

[unique tangle]

Ye and the pilgrimage still continued even despite then

[cedar skiff]

i can never tell when youre being real

[silk dirge]

i mean that is debatable

what actually drew pilgrims to the citadel

i think gms probably had some lure

[stray fog]

Brainwashing and promises of a golden citadel

[unique tangle]

The holy promise of sorts, the whispers of the weavers whatever they were

[sinful nimbus]

I flip a coin before typing all my messages if it lands on heads I write it if it lands on tails ChatGPT writes it

[unique tangle]

It wasn’t GMS she was asleep and not apart of how the weavers ran the citadel

[silk dirge]

yeah true

but i dont think saying the citadel is still a problem is correct

[unique tangle]

Whatever the weavers used to attract the pilgrims still goes on even after the citadel fell and barred its gates

[cedar skiff]

pilgrims will still come to the citadel but they wont like die

the tradition will eventually die out

[silk dirge]

yeah

[unique tangle]

Even after generations of the citadel being closed pilgrims still went

[cedar skiff]

oh my god i never knew about this lace related dialogue

“Sister, sister! Let me confide in you! As I ascended the Citadel's chambers to reach this place, I swear I heard the laughter of a child!
Wasn't much more than an echo, and I confess me fear's been playing awful tricks on me... and yet that voice still keeps ringing in my head.
Surely though, no bug so young and lively could survive within those heartless halls?”

“I swear I heard it, sister... That laugh! It almost sounded like they were enjoying themself...”

[unique tangle]

So will it actually be stopped?

[silk dirge]

i mean stopping the pilgrimage is like kind of a small thing compared to just generally freeing pharloom

[frigid belfry]

eventually, the weaver/citadel architecture will decay and there will be no more indoctrination, it'll take a while, and any pilgrim who reaches wont find some holy ground but a settlement in songclave

[unique tangle]

The pilgrimage is what’s causing so much death in pharloom tho

Pilgrims keep coming and they keep dying

[unique canopy]

The Citadel as a whole is not a problem, at the absolute most there might be a problem with remnants of the upper caste wanting to assert authority over everyone else but that's a big maybe. The last Conductor is dead, the Vaultkeepers are only interested in maintaining the Vaults, if anything the Citadel being shut down would be more of a problem because there's all that cogwork tech that won't be properly maintained.

[unique tangle]

Pharloom’s citizens are its pilgrims

Freeing pharloom should take into account the pilgrims

[silk dirge]

i mean the rest of the state of pharloom is absolutely the fault of the people on top

whether that be gms, weavers or conductors

[dawn sluice]

what we learned about the knight: theyre just like Grimm, a vessel who comes to kingdoms that got absolutely wrecked and still have some semblance of life inside

[silk dirge]

i feel like then that is up to sherma and the gang

hornet has removed the power structure

now pharloom can be rebuilt as something better

[unique tangle]

The power structure that attracted the pilgrims was long gone before Hornet even arrived tbh

[unique canopy]

With the Conductor dead and the Vaultkeepers voluntarily isolated, the closest thing to a leadership figure for the pilgrims will be the Caretaker of Songclave. So either people actually listen to the pure-hearted child who wants everyone to be happy, or they don't listen to him and it's all anarchy anyway instead of the Citadel leadership imposing their will and indoctrination on the pilgrims.

[silk dirge]

the root of it was gms so not really

[unique tangle]

The weavers were gone and Ballador is the only tensing conductor and he’s been sick for a long time

[cedar skiff]

why does this random pilgrim think lace is a child? are they stupid?

[unique tangle]

There is no actual power that’s drawing more pilgrims in other than the lingering promise of the citadel

[dawn sluice]

at least he isn't sick anymore

[timber pond]

The silk itself is what made the pilgrimage dangerous. If pepole are not controled by it, then they can start to deviate.

[cedar skiff]

gms doesnt have the range to attract bugs anyway

[silk dirge]

sure but how compelling of a story is that

[unique tangle]

Yea but GMS wasn’t what was actually drawing bugs in

[silk dirge]

thats just unbrainwashing pilgrims

that isnt very interesting

[unique tangle]

She was the cause of everything but she’s not what’s causing the system to keep going as it is now

[timber pond]

The system is litteraly broken though

Like it cant run anymore even when pilgrims get there

There is nothing to make them run anything.

[silk dirge]

like idk how you would make telling pilgrims not to do a pilgrimage interesting

[dawn sluice]

how much of the discussion here is
"silksongs story sucks"
"no it doesn't"

[unique tangle]

There’s still the ants, the lava, the judges, the worms, and all the other wild beasts

But at least pilgrims won’t attack each other ig

Or get haunted themselves

[silk dirge]

all of those are dead lol

[timber pond]

Ok sure but those aren't the citadel?

[silk dirge]

they were haunted

now theyre dead

[timber pond]

Like those things will kill anyone regardless lol

[cedar skiff]

exactly what point is being discussed here

[unique tangle]

? No being haunted does not kill tou

[silk dirge]

except like lava

[cedar skiff]

im kinda confused

[timber pond]

Like that's just pharloom having a dangerous climate

[silk dirge]

i would say it depends but someone who is fully haunted i would say is gone

[timber pond]

The actual institution of the citadel won't do anything anymore

[unique tangle]

The ants aren’t, the judges are but nothing is making the judges stop

[timber pond]

Sherma can lead pilgrims who end up there now anyway

[sinful nimbus]

The Citadel was dismantled I dont think it will be long before people realize "We don't have to do this"

[unique tangle]

Where does it say that?

[unique tangle]

The citadel was dismantled long ago when it fell to silence

And even then no one realized they should stop

[silk dirge]

its something that just makes sense lol

[timber pond]

Depends on if you think they are puppeted by silk or just brainwashed. Again, they might deviate now that ther is like, no one to put armor on the squirms andshit

[sinful nimbus]

You understand how that's different from Hornet literally collapsing everything right

[timber pond]

It will heal in time

[silk dirge]

theres that lore tablet in the marrow about how silk takes over a body

[sinful nimbus]

Like even the faithful pilgrims recognize the Citadel is gone, they didn't do that before

[silk dirge]

i feel like thats pretty good indication once your haunted your gone

[unique tangle]

No one’s putting armour on the squirrms that’s just their hardened shells

They just grow up pick up a mallet and shield and go out bashing in pilgrims heads

[timber pond]

The message in thier chamber litteraly says the citadel guilds them

[unique canopy]

Bellhart residents suggest otherwise, they were still alive after Hornet freed them and Pavo gives an explanation on what it's like to be Haunted

[silk dirge]

ok but bellhart was weird

[unique tangle]

Yea guide them in a metaphorical sense

[silk dirge]

they were strung up in a way different than others

[unique tangle]

They’re already basically programmed to kill from birth

[cedar skiff]

the citadel brainwashing goes deep but i think sherma being reality checked throughout the game itself is to show that after the system is dismantled people will realise the lies

[sinful nimbus]

Pavo says most of the haunted residents died

[silk dirge]

yeah

[unique tangle]

All they have to do is grow up and go out and do that programming

[timber pond]

Ok so, even if you are right, there is littearly no one to tell them "go bash pilgrims heads" anymore. Like at all.

[unique tangle]

There hasn’t been for generations

[silk dirge]

if you read this and think haunting doesnt kill idk what to say
"In the air. The water. Everywhere.
Inside their shells. Twisted inside. Guts.
Tightest around heart. Pulsing rhythm.
Sick. Alive. Dead?
Something worse.
Deeper. Must look deeper."

[unique tangle]

And yet they still do it

And believe in it

The citadel has been dead for generations

[timber pond]

What you are suggesting then is that its thier nature to just go bash things? Sooooo its natural?

[unique tangle]

But the squirrm still believe in the holy duty and go out to bash in pilgrims heads

[unique canopy]

If the Judges are doing that because they think it's their holy duty then it's actually easy to repurpose them by simply telling them their holy duty is something slightly different, like bashing in wild beasts to protect the pilgrims, now that the Haunting is over

[sinful nimbus]

It would've been as easy as making some rubble crush the sign informing the squirrms

[timber pond]

Like sherma can probably just go tell them to stop at this point

[silk dirge]

yeah

[unique canopy]

Probably, especially since the Judges already know he's pure

[timber pond]

Since they never attacked him

[silk dirge]

making the pilgrimage stop is not a compelling story lol

thats what im trying to say

[unique tangle]

Ending generations of suffering is a pretty compelling story

[silk dirge]

yeah which you do by killing gms

[unique tangle]

Actually tackling the system

[timber pond]

The system is GONE

[unique tangle]

GMS was not apart of the pilgrimage system

[timber pond]

Like she did do that

[unique tangle]

How do I make the more clear

[timber pond]

It was litteraly the foundation

[limpid summit]

What epilogue society will have the Fluke Hermit esque “good one” character

Or is that Broodling

[unique tangle]

Killing GMS does not end the pilgrimage, the pilgrims were going and kept going regardless of GMS

[timber pond]

Liek everything to do with anything was founded on GMS

[limpid summit]

Imagine Hornet talking to a squirrm

[unique tangle]

And regardless of the state of the citadel

[limpid summit]

Killing GMS will likely slow the pilgrimage to a halt eventually

[unique canopy]

The pilgrimage wasn't a system. People can go on pilgrammages for any reason. What happened to the pilgrims at the end of that pilgrimage was the system of the Citadel, and the Citadel's system has been almost completely dismantled at this point.

[limpid summit]

The citadel is silent and the choir won’t keep going

[silk dirge]

killing gms allows something new to be built in pharloom

[limpid summit]

Because the entire maintaining of the song is what builds her tomb

[unique tangle]

GMS is tangential to the pilgrimage yes it was started to bring in pilgrims so they could sing to keep her asleep but that system has been gone for generations

[timber pond]

Sure, but just like how over time that pilgrimage started BECAUSE of GMS it will end because ther is no longer a foundation and anyone who would perpetuate that foundation is fucking dead. And only Sherma remains.

[limpid summit]

I mean it’s still there it’s just not the express reason for the pilgrimage

But without the core underlying function of it the pilgrimage will cease

[unique tangle]

No pilgrim has been journeying up to the citadel to for the purpose to join the song in generations and they keep going for other reasons

The pilgrimage is not related to GMS

[limpid summit]

The pilgrimage is for the citadel as an icon

But when the citadel falls silent for the last time due to GMS’s death it won’t perpetuate

[timber pond]

Ok. But like. Why cant the pilgrims who got there and saw what happened in act 3, and WHO LIVED because second sentinel protected them, just like: go inform other pilgrims???? 😂

[limpid summit]

It may for a bit it’s not like the world will spread immediately

But it’s not just gonna keep being business as usual

[silk dirge]

anyways what im saying is stopping the pilgrimage is only one aspect

like the rest of pharloom is still ensnared

you didnt really free a lot

[unique tangle]

Maybe yea, that’s the part which I think would’ve been good for the game to address tho

[limpid summit]

I think the obstinance of the fleas to accept that the world isn’t going to end is part of that

It’s hard to make immediate change in systems of belief

[timber pond]

Thats not team cherys style. That want you to come to your own conclusions on that sort of stuff

[unique tangle]

Thanks Ari Gibson

I didn’t realize you were in the chat

[timber pond]

Just go read the interview they did like yesterday

[unique tangle]

Yea I feel like that aspect goes unanswered

[limpid summit]

I mean we’re getting an epilogue act for sure

[unique tangle]

Generations of deaths caused by the system and its barely given the time of light in the story, Hornet defeats the big bad, saves her family and then just ends the game

[limpid summit]

I think with the servants moving in the pilgrims will be forced to accept change

[timber pond]

In my opinion, the only thing that actually dosent have a soft open ended conclusion is Embrace The Void. Everything else can be explained away with rabbit hole lore speculation.

[unique tangle]

I did and just cause TC states they like the lore to be open to debate has nothing to do with just story telling

[silk dirge]

i dont think its a stretch to say gms was luring pilgrims in after she took over

[timber pond]

Did you do the last conversation with sherma when you have the everbloom?

[unique tangle]

Since they obviously still like

Told a story

Despite wanting the lore to being open to interpretation

[silk dirge]

her goal is to bind everything to her and wake up

luring pilgrims seems pretty lined up with that

[sinful nimbus]

Go read what TC says about their writing it proves their writing is good

[timber pond]

She places most of this responsibility on sherma because she has to leave for an undisclosed reason. And sherma seems very willing to go around and fix it

So like that's that really

[unique tangle]

Yea and? I found that bit unsatisfying

[timber pond]

Its a fitting end to shermas arc, which displays the pilgrimage of pharloom

[unique tangle]

We spend the game witnessing the citadels cruelty and extended effects even after the citadel has been long gone and we don’t directly address any of that

[timber pond]

So like the pilgrimage you actually care about and see starts and ends with him anyway?

[silk dirge]

i mean its pretty easy to imagine how with gms gone its going to be easy to build a better society which doesnt have an insane pilgrimage

[timber pond]

Does it need to be really?

[unique tangle]

I think from a storytelling perspective it should’ve been

If were to believe Hornet is growing to care for the land and its people then I definitely think it should have been

[silk dirge]

i mean what would you do for that

[timber pond]

I personaly don't think it needed to be. Its just filler at that point.

[silk dirge]

have sherma say he's going to build a giant sign saying "dont come here anymore" at bone bottom

[unique tangle]

You say that as a joke but that would be better

Than like

The nothing that gets done by Hornet ingame

[timber pond]

Its all very subtle. And it wouldn't be hollow knight if it just said "im hornet and now I love pharloom my bestest feeidny boy sherma!!!"

[unique tangle]

Sure why not, do some menial wish that helps free current and future pilgrims from the false promise of the citadel that has been luring generations of pilgrims to their deaths

A big sign would be a step forwards and better than nothing

[silk dirge]

my point is tho that none of this would be possible with gms ruling still

[timber pond]

Helping sherma be a leader will inevitably do that down the line anyway. If someone disagrees with hornet , she is often indefrent to the outcome anyway because thats just how her life happened.

[silk dirge]

if you want a dont come here sign thatd be like

epilogue dlc

[unique tangle]

If you still think that then we’re going in circles

[silk dirge]

which fair enough to me

[unique tangle]

Again GMS is not what’s luring in pilgrims

The weavers started the pilgrimage with their whispers

[timber pond]

Sure its the promise.

But now the pilgrims have shermas promise

[unique tangle]

Those whispers continued into a promise that was carried on by the conductors

[timber pond]

So like

[unique tangle]

GMS doesn’t factor into that considering she was asleep the entire time

[past cypress]

The protagonist warming up to the citizens is a major plot point in both games and it feels like everyone misses it ong

[silk dirge]

except she probably wants pilgrims to bind to her

[limpid summit]

I remember arguing with someone who thought GMS was genuinely emitting a psychic lure throughout the entire citadel’s history

[unique tangle]

“Probably” yeah where

None of the pilgrims mention a lick of GMS

[timber pond]

You cat like the pilgrims cant be taught to do anything for themselves

[unique tangle]

Other than Pavo who was haunted

[timber pond]

Which is proven flase with sherma

And now sherma will teach everyone everything else in time

Same with Gilly and pavo

And shakra

[unique tangle]

No im saying they CAN and we should help with that

We should help with ending the generational suffering

change the pilgrims and their ways

[silk dirge]

thats not relevant to what im saying tho she probably wants to haunt pilgrims so she can use them to keep people coming in that she can haunt and then bind to her

[timber pond]

Hornet has bystander syndrome so she wouldn't do it.

[unique tangle]

Yeah

[timber pond]

Team chery base these things off of "what would this chracter think and how would they act"

[unique tangle]

And that’s why I dislike that aspect of this game’s story

[timber pond]

That is just hornet

Like litteraly

Its her chracter flaw

That definedls her character

[unique tangle]

It tries to paint Hornet as caring for pharloom but she fundamentally doesn’t help change the system

That’s where the disconnect is for me

[timber pond]

She teaches other bugs how to though

Because she is not equipped to do that sort of thing

Because that's just her nature

[silk dirge]

this is where we are going in loops lol

[unique tangle]

She’s the strongest bug in the land I’m sure she’s equipped enough

[timber pond]

No you don't get it. She is equipped to be a WARRIOR not A LEADER

That is her life experince and therefore her nature

[unique tangle]

Yeah I’m not expecting her to stay and lead pharloom

That doesn’t mean she can’t find any part to play to help resolve the kingdoms issues

[timber pond]

She gives sherma the mental faculties and gilly the idea that he and his fellows needs to plant thier own seeds

She helps enough by gathering the shit people need

Everyone else in the comunity does the rest

[silk dirge]

as long as gms still is in control there is no rebuilding is what im trying to say here

[timber pond]

Hunter gatherers do the dangerous bit. Thats enough.

[unique tangle]

Yea it would’ve been cool if some quest like that occurred in act 3

Where sherma has Hornet help resolve the issues with pharloom

[silk dirge]

yeah sure hornet can build a sign but haunted bugs could destroy it

[timber pond]

You can do couriers rashers and get diolouge from each encampments though

And making that required at that point, from a gameplay perspective has no point

[silk dirge]

i mean whats stopping another skull tyrant coming in or some shit

[timber pond]

Shakra

Probably

[silk dirge]

a lot of the aggression of bugs in pharloom is the haunting

[unique tangle]

Gameplay wise maybe it would’ve felt simple

But story wise I think it would’ve had a huge impact

Particularly for Hornet

[timber pond]

But you can do those things in game with the rashers anyway. And THEY DO have diffrent diolouge in act 3

[unique tangle]

The rashers are not what’s resolving the issues with the pilgrimage and what’s causing so much death in pharloom

Why are we bringing them into the equation

[timber pond]

Oh my god. That is not an issue hornet herself can deal with. That is a systemic issue that heals over time.

She does the most she can with sherma, gilly, shakra fucking TALKING Tto random pilgrim bloke a in songclave when they appear in act 3.

[unique tangle]

No it’s not? Just like all those joke statements before about Hornet building a sign or breaking the judges sign to there is something she can do

I’m sure TC could have put in some quest to show that Hornet genuinely wants to help the future of pharloom

As you said she’s got too much bystander syndrome

[silk dirge]

sure but my point is all of those things would have to be an epilogue dlc

[lean temple]

She does show care, she wants strong bugs like Pinstress to be around who can help with rebuilding.

[timber pond]

She could have left in act 3 bro. She litteraly STATES her obligation is to the pepole. Lace even loads that she can just ficking pack up.

[unique tangle]

And that’s just where I think the game doesn’t really work on the story level

[timber pond]

See another one

She convinces pinstress to teach pilgrims to defend themselves

[silk dirge]

gms being gone is a prerequisite for anything relating to pharloom becoming better

[unique tangle]

For sure yeah

Tho in act 3 GMS is mostly out of the way so I really wish Hornet could’ve done more

[silk dirge]

yeah so thats what im saying then

[timber pond]

Her trauma and station in life prevent her from changing all too much. But she knows they need help. Throughout the game and act 3 she convinces the bugs to help eachother. What more can she do bro???

[silk dirge]

it sounds like your on the same page here

you want an epilogue dlc

[unique tangle]

Maybe if TC could show that in the epilogue that would work

I just wish they could’ve better conveyed it in the actual game

Is all I was looking for

[charred radish]

shes a bit busy making sure the world doesnt end

[unique tangle]

I don’t mind an epilogue about it

But I dont want to bet on it even existing

[timber pond]

I mean if we are here talking about it, they did enough.

[unique tangle]

She goes on a side quest in act 3 to help find some girls doll

Run laps with a goofball

And play carnival games

[lean temple]

She's scrambling to save Lace to end the Void apocalypse she doesn't have much time

[charred radish]

that is true

[timber pond]

Those are things that help the residents? WHILE being FAST about it? That seems like care to me.

[unique tangle]

She could have had time to fit in a quest that would’ve helped better the future of pharloom

[silk dirge]

i feel like all the act 3 sidequests can be explained as like "hornet needs to become stronger to face lose lace"

[lean temple]

Saving lost lace is the thing that makes Pharloom even have a future

[unique tangle]

Its not one or the other??

Why does she only need to do one

[lean temple]

One is much more urgent

[unique tangle]

How does a quest for Hornet to help end the pilgrimage interfere with saving lost lace

[timber pond]

She dosent. If cannon hornet is hornet that does everything in the game, she makes deliveries all the time too.

[unique tangle]

Like I said Hornet goes on numerous random side quests in act 3

[lean temple]

Dismantling the socioreligious system is gonna take more time and need much more planning

[unique tangle]

Urgency is not an issue TC had in mind

[lean temple]

The pilgrimage is already over. The Citadel is in ruins

[unique tangle]

The pilgrimage kept going even when the citadel was in ruins generations ago

[lean temple]

Those states do not compare

[unique tangle]

Nvm we’re going back in circles again this was explained awhile ago

[lean temple]

The Citadel is literally falling apart

[lapis creek]

it is a difficult thing to explain simply

[timber pond]

Except guess what? The pilgrims THIS TIME can go back down out of the citadel and tell everyone what they saw and what happened. When every other time, pepole went up there and NEVER came back. As chapel maid says at the start.

[lapis creek]

presumably the reason is that stopping the pilgrimage doesnt give you any mask shards

[unique tangle]

She goes on like 8 memento side quests in act 3

I’m sure she has the time

[unique tangle]

Yeah that’s the only thing preventing Hornet from doing it in the end

[lapis creek]

what would she have to do though

[unique tangle]

TC didn’t make a quest for it to give Hornet a reward for it

[lapis creek]

realistically

what is the deliverable

[timber pond]

A pice of paper that says "Citadel BAD"

[unique tangle]

Realistically something simple, maybe sherma has Hornet help deliver the word

Having Hornet it first would be a good way to go about it too

[timber pond]

Like you yourself advocate for, the pilgrims of pharloom are stubborn and will only change with what they see and exprince with thier own two damn eyes

[lapis creek]

thats not necessarily true

[timber pond]

Heck evrone in pharloom is so stubborn, that it seems pointless to spread any word

[lapis creek]

they had never seen the citadel and yet their lives are built around walking up to it

they're clearly under an illusion that's the whole point

[unique tangle]

I think Hornet should at least try

[timber pond]

Yeah, and that illusion can be broken when they just simply see it after the game is over. Or sherma just invites them into his club

[lean temple]

Even Sherma still holds on to the Citadel's holiness after seeing Whiteward

[unique tangle]

Give her some quest to help slowly break the promise of citadel that’s been leading so many pilgrims to their deaths

[timber pond]

She does with Pilby arguably. And even zylotol

[unique tangle]

A step forwards is better than nothing

[lapis creek]

it makes sense that hornet wouldn't have the time for this kind of societal change in act 3

[timber pond]

But zylotol says "Lol no this is my original Blue Gatorade, cant exist anywhere else"

[lean temple]

Side quest where Hornet makes every pilgrim in Pharloom deconstruct from their religion, easy stuff

[timber pond]

And she's like "ok fine have it your way man"

[lapis creek]

i think this works better as a criticism of the pointless sidequests in act 3 than it does as an argument for why hornet should have also done xyz

[silk dirge]

most of the quests hornet does in act 3 are to get enough strength to fight ll i think

[lapis creek]

well it's true that there are 8 mementos

[timber pond]

Well, its also to check up on everyone to make sure thay haven't died

[silk dirge]

i dont think canonical hornet is 5hp volt filament threadstorming ll

[unique tangle]

That doesn’t matter all it would’ve required is putting a mask shard reward behind a hypothetical quest that would have Hornet help end the system

[silk dirge]

oh yeah those are a problem sometimes

[unique tangle]

Maybe move the mask shard from gilly’s random side quest

[silk dirge]

gurr is cool tho

[lapis creek]

the flea memento and the heart 4 memento are particularly egregious

[silk dirge]

oh yeah

[unique tangle]

Yeah but aren’t we talking about the urgency of act 3?

[lapis creek]

some of them are fine

saving garmond is ok

mister mushroom is ok

[silk dirge]

craws is cool

[timber pond]

What and just do a quest that's like "Hey pilby remember those conversations we had? IDK man spread the word of freedom!!" Team cherry would never do something on the nose like that

[unique tangle]

Hornet goes out of her way to kill some random ant dude and fetch a child’s doll

Just cause Gilly is holding a mask shard hostage ig

[lapis creek]

yeah these extra quests undermine the urgency of act 3 and an arc about ending the pilgrimage would make that worse

thats like a postgame thing

[unique tangle]

I think it would’ve fit into the themes of act 3 better tho, what better time to convince pilgrims that the citadel is a false crumbling lie

[silk dirge]

yeah i feel like seth memento would probably work better postgame

[unique tangle]

Than during the time the citadel is actually crumbling before everyone’s eyes

[silk dirge]

as a like "lets celebrate"

flea festival otherwise is fine bc its for a pale oil

[unique tangle]

Would be better than doing carnival games for 3 hours

[lapis creek]

i think immediately after would still be better

theyll remember what happened

and they won't be in immediate danger

[unique tangle]

The problem is that there is not “after” rn

I think a hypothetical epilogue would be cool

[lapis creek]

sure but in universe doing it afterwards is better

or just have sherma do it and hornet be uninvolved

and just see sherma going around pharloom talking to people

[cedar skiff]

juggling my fleas is vital for gameplay and story progression

[unique tangle]

But what we have in the current ingame time doesn’t allow for this to occur after

[lapis creek]

why does it have to occur in the game

[unique tangle]

Cause this discussion started as a result of discussing Hornet’s character

[silk dirge]

my main problem with an epilogue even if itd be cool is that stuff like that should usually be up to your imagination

[unique tangle]

I think Hornet should’ve actively played a bigger role in saving pharloom

As in like resolving it’s systemic side

[silk dirge]

i think the only really egregious thing in act 3 is lifeblood tho

that will probably make more sense with lifeblood lab whenever that gets added

[lean temple]

Pharloom bugs would know better how to reshape their society

[unique tangle]

What does that have to do with Hornet helping

I’m not saying Hornet has to lead or run the new society

We already have that with weaver queen anyways

[cedar skiff]

the way they spoke about dlc interview basically confirmed that they arent focusing on like.. post act 3 dlc

i just want more lace and shakra content please speed i need this

[unique tangle]

DLC feels weird to place in the current Act structure

[silk dirge]

i want hornet to try explaining her lineage to her friends

[unique tangle]

Putting more content in act 1 or 2 feels like it could bloat those too much

[cedar skiff]

they were like

[lapis creek]

idk if this is really that kind of game

[cedar skiff]

talking about how to hide access to dlc

[unique tangle]

Especially when act 3 is already so tiny in comparison

[cedar skiff]

because accessing it accidentally on a first playthrough would make it feel bloated

iirc

[lapis creek]

i like the idea of weaver queen being a bad ending and hornet having to find a way to not become part of the systemic problem

[silk dirge]

yeah

[lapis creek]

would have been even cooler if the hallownest weavers were actively trying to put her in there

maybe if it was why she was born

[silk dirge]

i feel like having herrah be a sort of contrast to gms would be fine for that

which she already is

[lapis creek]

and if she struggled with the horrible things she increasingly found herself having to do, like destroying beautiful ecosystems and killing her friend green prince

[silk dirge]

my idea for act 3 would force you to sacrifice coral gorge

am i evil

[unique tangle]

The disconnect is that it feels like TC were trying to say something about it

As you journey you see all these bugs unfairly bound by the religion and the citadel, forced to work forever for ludicrous reasons

You see the aftermath of the citadel and how it has committed terrorism on the civilizations and ecosystems around it

You find pilgrims dead everywhere en masse also due to those false promises not even aware that the citadel has long been dead and that they’re all toiling away for nothing

And in the end you do… next to nothing about it. You tangentially help resolve the problem but you don’t directly interact with it or directly face the the issue and I think that’s where my issue lies

[silk dirge]

actually idk if killing khann in the real world would end coral gorge

[unique tangle]

But anyways I’m done with that discussion, time to talk dlc

[lapis creek]

i think it would

maybe not immediately

[timber pond]

Hornet probably has to leave because the Steel pepole have likely figured out that she played a part in void perpetuating where it shouldn't.

I imagine Sharpe is going to be like terminator

In the sense that he is mass produced.

Or rather for a more aprt comparison, like Mr X from reident evil.

[unique tangle]

I mean coral could be like shellwood hypothetically

But given how it seems like it all crumbled so easily then probably not

[visual glacier]

New interview pretty much confirms that coral gorge is not coming back

[lean temple]

I think a neat twist would be that the Masters secretly favor Hornet winning. Maybe they align with her ideologically in some way.

[fringe cloud]

Guys are Weavers divine or not because GMS did create them

[silk dirge]

not

thats the whole point of first sinner

[lean temple]

They're not different from the other bugs made by HBs

Although they made themselves out to be divine so they could rule

[silk dirge]

could bugs elevated by pk control soul

the kings pass tablet seems to imply they could focus

[lean temple]

Considering most of Hallownest was, no

Otherwise they'd all be Soul Sanctum soul wizards

[timber pond]

Have you played metroid fusion or dread? I personally think an "SA-X" moment with sharpe would be sick as fuck.

Imagine you kill him, and think he's dead. He visibly dies. But then later in the plot, much like hornet does to the slabflies he just jumps from the ceiling onto hornet and does like 4 masks of damage in an ambush. You are confused. And ten another one shows up. Sharpe is an army of Moulds who are all connected.

This would make sense as to how the masters can. Pursue anyone and everyone.

[lean temple]

I do think there are many assassins, idk about Sharpe being a model

[timber pond]

Because Sharpe is not an indavidual assasin, he is an army

[timber pond]

I think sharp is the main one. With varied steel hearts on the side in supporting roles

[lean temple]

There could be like Sharpe, just not exact copies

[silk dirge]

we should discuss what hornet is making out of craftmetal

i highly doubt shes just making a few tools with such a rare material

my theory is shes making a mold for tools

[timber pond]

I personaly think the masters have a sharpe mould like how the kingsmoulds are made.

[pliant crag]

Steel collector sharpe

[lean temple]

It'll be great to learn just what exactly the Masters' relation with Void is and how they use it

[frigid belfry]

just finished reading the tc interview and its hilarious

[pliant crag]

I wonder what they do with all the info they get from the steel seers

[timber pond]

I think its a tool they want to monopolize tbh.

[pliant crag]

Where can i read it?

[frigid belfry]

its some bloomberg link, but i also found it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/HollowKnight/comments/1p995ct/the_entire_interview_of_team_cherry_by_bloomberg/

[pliant crag]

And more so how the seers even GIVE them the information, do they just disappear for some centuries and come back after?

[pliant crag]

Thanks

[lean temple]

Thing is they don't go after the Pale King, nor the Weavers in the Abyss, and no trace of them with the Ancients either.

[lean temple]

Magic relays maybe

[pliant crag]

Maybe they want to control it and the vessels/shade lord are trying to stop them

[lean temple]

They seem to like the Shadelord if anything "My masters would be impressed"

[frigid belfry]

tc wont show up to goty because they are too busy working on dlc, they intentionally made bilewater annoying, and they wish to communicate more in the future, and this game's dlc will be big, tc is also not that good at their own game which completely debunks the "they didnt playtest the game" theory, also the dlc will likely include some elements of refighting bosses since they liked that

[timber pond]

Mabye they did but we just dont know

[lean temple]

Jiji and Jinn are chill

[pliant crag]

Or maybe they would be impressed by the shade lord's ability to unify some of the void, because they seek to do the same

Hornet did say nobody ever succeeded in harnessing the power of the void, and the snail shamans are a prime example of this

[lapis creek]

isnt it pretty explicit that the masters don't seek order as the knight does

[frigid belfry]

makes me wonder how strong they are

[timber pond]

Well the seers are just observers as we see. Vassals might be like researchers or something? Assasins don't show themselves.

[frigid belfry]

they had decent relations with the citadel

[pliant crag]

They can summon void and use it as weapons and soldiers

The vassals are likely a race with ties to the void that the steelsouls enslaved

They probably use them to summon void for their craft

Idk why they accompany the seers tho

[lean temple]

Jinn is specifically a trader, strangely enough. And doesn't have the farsight rune Zi has over her, so she doesn't appear to be a Seer.

[lean temple]

They seem most like assistants or helpers, hence the name "vassal"

[timber pond]

Well. Then mabye Hallownest traded with this steel civilization?

[lean temple]

Hornet does know a few things about them, so maybe

[timber pond]

And if thats the case, who's to say the wingsmloulds and kingsmoulds aren't exported?

As in the armor

[lean temple]

Or the opposite

[timber pond]

Imported is what I meant lol

Imported to hallownest

[lean temple]

Oh no worries

The steel society doesn't seem to interact with other civilizations in that way though.

[timber pond]

We don't know if they dis or not

[lean temple]

For whatever reason, the Masters are watching over several lands and maintaining a presence there.

[timber pond]

Like you said Jinn trades and Zi observes

So they send a trading Steelheadt to hallownest an observing to the other?

That implies diffrent relations

[lean temple]

My little theory is that Jinn and Jiji were sent specifically to help a vessel on its way to becoming Shadelord

Since that is an outcome the Masters favour

As for Pharloom perhaps they are interested to see how Hornet will overcome the Citadel and GMS

[timber pond]

What do they want to pour shadelord into a glass and drink him or something?

[lean temple]

Not sure but maybe they like there to be a being that can reign in the Void

[timber pond]

I think mabye they just saw the weavers as dangerous if not observed

[lean temple]

The Masters punish haphazardous use of Void, so having a being that can control it around seems favorable.

Jiji and Jinn could've also been sent to keep an eye in case Pale King accidentally causes a Void catastrophe, though I don't think that's the case, at least not the main reason for sending them.

[craggy smelt]

making a new Steel Master?!

[lean temple]

Perhaps they themselves are Lords of Shades...

[craggy smelt]

Castlevania Lords of Shades

[frigid belfry]

fraud masters doing allathat talking and no actions

zero feats

sherma negs >>>>

[lean temple]

Compression

"Especially you higher"

[frigid belfry]

zi's brainwashed

masters are zote level

[lean temple]

Hilarious idea

[frigid belfry]

ari told me in a prophecy

[craggy smelt]

now, I wonder if this means pale beings are especially vulnerable to Compression, or especially likely to be targeted with it for defying the Masters

[lean temple]

It seems it is a punishment for defiance

Or it's meant in a "even your like are not safe from the Masters"

Although I wonder where Hornet learned about them. Did she press Jiji and Jinn for details? Or did PK and WL tell her

She has interacted with Jiji and Jinn before at least.