sk-lore

[lean temple]

A word you gave to bug and beast as they had never dreamed

[barren beacon]

Binding is something all weavers can do right?

[sinful nimbus]

Seems like it

[nocturne mauve]

guys there's something i don't understand about the ||true ending. it's said that in order to keep lace alive she needs a constant sustain of silk, i think that's written in lace's journal entry, and gms is the one sustaining her, but then in the true ending after gms uses all her silk for hornet's silk soar, how is lace being sustained? am i misinterpreting the journal entry?||

[barren beacon]

We don't know

I like to think Lace will just fucking die at some point

[nocturne mauve]

maybe hornet is now using her silk to sustain lace?

that's my only guess

[barren beacon]

I think Lace requires a shitton of Silk to be sustained

[timber pond]

" Gibson: It is interesting working out how you expand an already huge game, to make sure you don’t completely overwhelm new players, because obviously new players will be experiencing the new stuff, very naturally integrated. It’ll just seem like the base experience. Some of that might mean finding ways to hide away the access, because otherwise potentially by the end of the our expansions and developments it would just be gargantuan."

To access godhome equivalent , i gotta jump in the secret wall where i get silksoar and go into an abyssal ocean cavern.😭

[ornate pier]

I just assume hornet will give her a supply

[timber pond]

Sounds like every new secret will be Path of Pain level of diffuicuty to find lmao

[ornate pier]

Without a supply of silk the stuff happening to phantom would happen to lace

Like the greying

[nocturne mauve]

hmm yeah i guess they didn't really think about that when making the ending

or didn't feel the need to explain it

[timber pond]

Ok guys in 1 year

we get news

[timber pond]

I mean assumedly, Lace can get it from the kingdom where it has not exhausted and hornet.

[inner torrent]

Probably hornet will need to sustain her from now on

[nimble haven]

We can all agree that the "village of lions" is probably gonna be based on antlions right

[timber pond]

Probably. Weather or not thats in this game who can say

[inner torrent]

Yeah, now without gms there is technically a lot of silk available

[inner torrent]

!!! TRAPPINCH

[timber pond]

But it seems like they want Dlc to have an "Arc" bEcause hornet can Speculate on the things presented

[frigid belfry]

ggs coral gorge isnt coming back

my dream

[inner torrent]

Damn, I really wanted to sink in coral gorge lakes

[timber pond]

Uness they add a mechanic akin to lords of the fallen where you can transitionn between "realms" but in this case its the past and present

[nimble haven]

Goated pokemon

[nimble haven]

Yh I can understand why they cut for narrative reasons but damn man it looked so cool

[timber pond]

It sounds like they want to keep doing hollow knight but lament that they arent imortal and cant do Both new games and hollow knight 😂

[nimble haven]

"What could possibly stop development time on future games?"
"Uhhhh, dying"

[inner torrent]

Can someone inject silk to Ari gibson please?

[lean temple]

Give those billionaire life extension treatments to TC

With such a small team the workload is gargantuan. Maybe them expanding would make it faster, but the concern becomes the quality

[edgy nebula]

lion village confirmation is crazy

Full of lions

[timber pond]

We are totally getting some kind of Steel related thing before they step away from hollow knight to apply thier view to a new genre.

[nimble haven]

They're geniunely edging us with this info I wanna know about the Steel faction and their relation to void pleaseee 😭 😭 😭

[timber pond]

Also Aperently Silksoul mode would have had the world change based on "awakening" Bench's???

[edgy nebula]

i wish we never got confirmation of the steel city being related to void... it's totes lamebob

[timber pond]

maybe the bells revitalized areas or something

[timber pond]

I mean if JiJi and Jinn were related and Jinn coments on the void, thats sort of the natural expansion of it

also like i said Void is inherently tied to a hollow knight narrative

[edgy nebula]

jiji summons regrets and jinn doesnt comment on the void

i'm just not a fan of every big thing in the universe tying back to void

[timber pond]

But the implication is Regrets and void are related somehow

[visual glacier]

If you mean the bell shrines, then no. If you mean the bell benches, the maybe

[edgy nebula]

i'd prefer a standalone huge civilization or something

[timber pond]

Not everything. But if the chracter is related to it it will be. Which alot of things are

Because it was a ggame about hronet, the void would be involved in some way as confirmed by this intervew, was the plan all along

[timber pond]

yeah, i meant the mechanic whatever it was

[edgy nebula]

yeah it was involved, i just wish it wasnt

itd be more fun if silksong's story was more standalone from hk imo

[timber pond]

They split it they way that they did so it could be both

[visual glacier]

It is, honestly only act 3 is related

[timber pond]

Act 3 is for the dedicated hollow knight fans and defines its nature as a sequel

They say that: That is the intent behind "this game is a jumping on point"

What they MEAN is that "yeah, if you arent as invested it can be standalone" "BUT if you are inherently invested in the core of what makes this "hollow Knight" Then heres act 3"

Essentialy the game gatekeeps the players care about the lore in that way

as Ari said about bilewater "its in the name"

"hollow Knight" will ALWYAS have Void as an important elemnt of the story somewhere.

[solemn hinge]

Yeah, I mean Silksong only has 4 returning characters aside from Hornet, and all of them only have brief moments

[visual glacier]

More than that

[solemn hinge]

I’m trying real hard to think of more

[lean temple]

Mister Mushroom and the 3 queens?

[visual glacier]

The knight, Mr mushroom, siblings, white lady, herrah, Vespa

Wingmould kinda

[solemn hinge]

Okay yeah I will count Mister Mushroom I did forget about him

[lean temple]

Oh yeah TK and the Siblings

[visual glacier]

Shadow creeper and void tendrils if you count them

[solemn hinge]

But I don’t feel like the Siblings count

So I would personally only say 5

[visual glacier]

Pale king by name

[edgy nebula]

if we're counting enemies you also have void tendrils and shadow creepers

[lean temple]

They're like all act 3

Which yeah act 3 is what fully ties the two games together

[visual glacier]

Also void given focus if you don’t count that as the knight

[solemn hinge]

*Also Void Given Focus if you’re wrong

[lean temple]

Ig you have Zi and Sula part of the over arching Steel Faction presence along with the Void, but that's Steel Soul exclusive

[solemn hinge]

Yeah

[timber pond]

https://www.reddit.com/r/HollowKnight/comments/1p3bzuo/desire/

This is what i want. PEAK

[wise sand]

no retcons???

[lean temple]

Welp

[wise sand]

semi related but whats with the hk and hornet head canon

ive seen it a lot recently

[silk dirge]

this is what i always felt

tc knows a bunch of stuff we dont know about

so it all makes sense for them

however since we dont know those things its fair to call out those inconsistencies

[wise sand]

true

[sinful nimbus]

TC said there's no retcons so it must be true

[solemn hinge]

I don’t think Silksong has many major retcons anyways

Some things just conflict because of differing opinions in-universe

[muted lantern]

this debate again....

[wise sand]

the little weavers thing

[solemn hinge]

Yeah that one is a little iffy isn’t it

[silk dirge]

maybe tc just enjoys seeing us fight in this channel so they withheld important info

[wise sand]

unironically yeah

[muted lantern]

i mean theres always the possiblity they have answers for all these things and just neglect to tell us. Leaving things up to interpertation is generally a sound strategy to keep a fandom engaged.

[wise sand]

not in this channel specifically ofc but they do see to like discussion quite a lot

[lean temple]

There are no retcons in Ba Sing Silksong Se

[solemn hinge]

Ba skong se

[lean temple]

Oo that's better

[timber pond]

Speculation on thier relationship in the past

[silk dirge]

RBMK REACTORS SILKSONGS DONT EXPLODE HAVE RETCONS

[timber pond]

perfectly reasonable, since we dont really have anything contrete

[timber pond]

Probably. because they Cut the Other "silk heart looking" sprites, which were likely other cutscenes

[wise sand]

i assumed that pk wouldve prevented thk from interacting with anyone other him and wl to minimize the risks of them becoming unhollow

[silk dirge]

the fabled tc lore bible

[timber pond]

True but we cant know

[solemn hinge]

The issue with Hornet and HK interacting is I don’t think there is a reasonable moment where they could have

[silk dirge]

top 10 most protected items in history

[wise sand]

also thk nor pk show up in the red memory

[sinful nimbus]

Clearly not

[solemn hinge]

Hornet lived with the Weavers until Herrah went to sleep

[visual glacier]

No

[sinful nimbus]

Someone broke in and scribbled on everything to do with Little Weavers

[visual glacier]

He shows up as a platforming block

[lean temple]

Please I'd buy it 🙏

[wise sand]

true

[solemn hinge]

And, I would assume, when Herrah went to sleep, THK was sealed

[wise sand]

true

[solemn hinge]

And we also know that Hornet was probably only at the White Palace after her time in the Hive

[timber pond]

I kind of always intrepreted little weavers as Like Mini constructs with the way they sort of pop into existence

The Description of Weaversong is The only descerpiancy

[wise sand]

they crawl from out of the backgroud

[visual glacier]

I wonder if midwife was herrahs actual midwife

[lean temple]

Vespa mentored Hornet but it isn't mentioned that she lived in the Hive

[solemn hinge]

Interesting

[timber pond]

Probably.

[wise sand]

she mentions hornet

[solemn hinge]

Still, she was in White Palace after Herrah was sealed

[lean temple]

And Hornet would probably mention that she lived with her, or we would see it

[solemn hinge]

I feel like there isn’t much time for them to have interacted

[lean temple]

That is explicitly stated by Midwife

Oh wait you mean with THK?

[solemn hinge]

Yeah

I don’t really find is feasible for them to have interacted

[silk dirge]

someone once came up with the theory little weavers could be servants of the weavers

[solemn hinge]

Could be constructs too, like the Weaverlings I guess?

[silk dirge]

little weavers dont use magic silk really

[wise sand]

hmm

[silk dirge]

it doesnt glow

[lean temple]

It's funny to think TC have all these explanations that leave us in the dark. Like "Why does Herrah look like that? Oh simple it's because xyz! But we're not gonna tell that to anyone"

[solemn hinge]

Weaverlings are constructs tho

[silk dirge]

theres a cut pharlid looking sprite lol

[timber pond]

I mean IF Pepole can be made out of Silk and if Whitewards Silk animates bodies, Weaverlings might be some kind of silk construct IMO

[silk dirge]

ofc all the explanations are cut

[lean temple]

Yeah I think ik the one you mean

[random harbor]

Midwife - Weaversong - Weaversong

Ohhhh.. Heehee. Been prying about the weavers' home, have you my dear? Quite brazen to pilfer that special charm.
Amazing things the weavers once crafted on their looms; stories, shields, spells. So much of our history was spun upon their spools. Your little friends there are testament to their talents... heehee.
Oh! I do apologise. I've just felt a rumbling down below, in my belly. Just wait right there a moment. Don't you move now...

@_shush__ used /npcs misc name: Midwife category: Weaversong dialogue: Weaversong

[timber pond]

Charms Are the Wishes of Dying bugs arent they?

[wise sand]

i dont think theyre constructs

[lean temple]

The WS weaverlings do seem to be constructs. I believe Hornet references them when talking about Lace?

[timber pond]

Weavers wanted children

[silk dirge]

"pilfer"

damn grindle and midwife are related

[wise sand]

they wouldnt need to hunt

[solemn hinge]

Even just using Midwife’s dialogue, they are

[timber pond]

If charms are teh wishes of dying bugs and weavers wanted children, then its a charm that manifests children.

Found next to two dead weavers

[lean temple]

The description says it was a song of farewell they left behind

[silk dirge]

i think little weavers being servants is a good explanation

[wise sand]

they can be found pretty far out from deepnest + charms need to be equiped to worked

cant be equiped by weavers if theyre all gone/dead

[timber pond]

That Dosent nesseciarly mean that the song was them "leaving" The song could have come from thsoe two weavers before they died

[silk dirge]

the hunter description doesnt seem to imply they can use magic

[timber pond]

"leaving" could also mean death

[silk dirge]

"thin strands of web"

[solemn hinge]

“Amazing things the weavers once crafted on their looms; stories, shields, spells. So much of our history was spun upon their spools. Your little friends there are testament to their talents... heehee.” Weaversong Weaverlings are most likely constructs

[silk dirge]

oh yeah im laughing about this one

[mint stratus]

The weaverlings seem purely spun from silk, which could be an example of the fleeting life spun by silk Hornet had experience with compared to the much longer lasting form of lace

[lean temple]

They left to Pharloom

[silk dirge]

"left hallownest for their old home"

[lean temple]

Yes thank you

[silk dirge]

they fucking died

like idk what weaver was going back to pharloom

😭

bro was lonely

[mint stratus]

I mean fully get that but where else would they go?

[silk dirge]

im joking a lot here but like

[lean temple]

They got murked by GMS on arrival

[silk dirge]

it seems a lot of weavers straight up just died

[wise sand]

they have keep inventory on so they died to get back to their spawn point(pharloom)🔥

[silk dirge]

in the weavers den

[timber pond]

"Im.... going ...home" dies Type Vibe

[solemn hinge]

I don’t think Little Weavers being constructs is out of the question

[mint stratus]

This adds to my lore that weavers were gamers

[silk dirge]

also whats interesting is none of them have burial spires

[inner torrent]

I hate how there isn't a little weaver tool

[silk dirge]

why does first sinner get a burial spire

[inner torrent]

It would be fun ASF to have weaverlings running around around you

[lean temple]

Well they probably thought the Citadel was functioning so it could have been safe to return at least momentarily?

[silk dirge]

but hallownest weavers dont

[inner torrent]

What's a burial spire?

[timber pond]

I think They Buried themselves into some kind of hybenation

[mint stratus]

I miss my kids

[wise sand]

they died pretty suddenly or left

[inner torrent]

The things were weavers are mummified?

[silk dirge]

"oh yeah the citadel is workin- THEY DID WHAT IN WHITEWARD??!??!!"

[wise sand]

they didnt have the time or resources probably

[mint stratus]

Something like that for sure

[wise sand]

also team cherry just hadnt developed the lore ig

[inner torrent]

I suppose that's because pharloom spires are made in the expectation of a savior to claim them

[lean temple]

Lmao

[silk dirge]

why does first sinner get a burial spire is interesting to me

it seems she would not be one to get one

[lean temple]

Maybe it's out of respect?

[silk dirge]

and yet she does

[inner torrent]

Yeah that's curious, In general I'm curious of who put her in the slab prison in first place

[lean temple]

Like yeah she made a mistake but she's still a Weaver so she's shown some respect

[mint stratus]

All the weavers died because they didn’t have the rosaries to bench when they returned to pharloom

[timber pond]

I was alwways under the assumption those weavers Mumified themselves

[silk dirge]

weavers

her cage has a citadel symbol

[inner torrent]

Because, the first sinner should have been looked as a savior for the rest of weavers, she revealed the truth

[mint stratus]

No one likes being told they’re adopted

[silk dirge]

so first sinner is post gms sealing

but conductors 100% cannot do shit with silk runes

so it had to be weavers

[solemn hinge]

Why do we know it wasn’t post-Weaver Citadel again?

[ornate pier]

Because they were all gone and stufr

Or dead in a spire

[solemn hinge]

What

[ornate pier]

The rule was passed down after they left wasn't it

[muted lantern]

I generally am of the mind she was imprisoned by the weavers some time after the citadel was founded, due to claiming the weavers were not gms's daughters and not truly divine, which undermined the weavers percieved right to rule. hence why shes imprisoned for apostasy.

[solemn hinge]

No I mean like how do we know that First Sinner was imprisoned by the Weavers of the Citadel and not the later Citadel that didn’t have any Weavers

[ornate pier]

This is what I believe in too

[muted lantern]

the seals on her chains have the same auras as we find around lights in weavenests, runes and such that are mainly attributed to weavers and not found on modern citadel stuff afaik

[solemn hinge]

I see

[mint stratus]

Mainly the fact that the mortal bug citadel doesn’t seem to have much ability to weave silk

They can perform silk surgery but they don’t seem very good at it honestly

[muted lantern]

Also considering the weavers were the founders of the citadel I imagine only weavers could jail another weaver

[silk dirge]

conductors would also not be able to seal her for sure

she would destroy the conductors

weavers have equal power to her so they could fight back and imprison her

[muted lantern]

especially one who seems to be the eldest weaver, though thats reliant on non canon filenames, its still somewhat implied by her cutscene and her differing appearance making her seem like a first attempt.

[solemn hinge]

That is pretty weird, why would the Weavers do that to her

[unique canopy]

I kept trying to reconcile First Sinner being imprisoned by her fellow Weavers with the fact that she wasn't angry at them but solely against GMS, as well as the likelihood she was Atla and therefore would've had a great deal of respect among her fellows. My conclusion was that she wasn't imprisoned for revealing the divine lie, but that she was completely against the plan of turning over rule to the common bugs and fleeing Pharloom and threatened to bring that down.

[muted lantern]

As i said, she challenged their divinity, undermining their rule.

[solemn hinge]

Hm, I see

[inner torrent]

Maybe the impression was more of a memorial

[solemn hinge]

But wasn’t she the one that started the revolt against GMS in the first place

[mint stratus]

Unclear atm

[solemn hinge]

Am I thinking of a different Weaver

[silk dirge]

we don't know who started the revolt

[unique canopy]

It's why her dialogue is intentionally a riff on the dialogue you get from the spires before binding. She saw the plan as her sisters giving up and letting themselves die instead of continuing the fight.

[lean temple]

Hornet does comment that their technique are crude, notably the Grand Reeds and Choir Clappers

[muted lantern]

The weavers probably revolted altoghether, hence the separate weavenests coming up with their own distinct plans to defeat gms, before they settled on the imprisonment.

[solemn hinge]

I see

[lean temple]

Wait so the Weavenests were made pre-lulling to sleep?

[solemn hinge]

I mean

[lean temple]

I guess they were to escape her gaze weren't they

[solemn hinge]

After they lulled her to sleep I assumed they just kept to the Citadel

[mint stratus]

I’m personally still unsure if first sinner would’ve been bound by gms or by the weavers
I haven’t looked too deep into it myself, leaning towards the weavers

[unique canopy]

I forget if it's Eva or a Needolin dialogue but yes, they were made to keep from being watched by GMS while they planned

[mint stratus]

Yup! Weavers all were hunkering down trying to throw spaghetti at a wall plan wise to try and get one that sticks

Either that or they realized that she was imminently waking and panicked

[inner torrent]

The citadels have very different uses

For example, far field weavenest is most likely made to train speed so they can escape pharloom properly

[mint stratus]

Also map

[lean temple]

Seems to be the case

At least eventually they realized they had to gtfo

[mint stratus]

I honestly think that they could’ve been used both times by different weavers

Like initially pre citadel, but those who stayed re-used them later

[inner torrent]

Yep, weavenest atla feels like pre-lulling imo

That's why it's the most farthest from the cradle

[lean temple]

And the biggest at that

[unique canopy]

If the infrastructure's already there and locked behind a needolin door, then the Weavers might as well have kept using them after GMS was put to sleep

[lean temple]

But it also has both Eva and the Snare Setter

I don't remember which nest has the bell shrine blueprint too

[inner torrent]

Snare setter is in weavenest atla?

I thought it was weavelight

[mint stratus]

They’re both there!

[lean temple]

Weavelight is there too

Atla is kinda packed

[mint stratus]

Biggest nest for sure

[lean temple]

Bell Shrines blueprint too

It seems the bottom area collapsed though, where weavelight is and all that stuff.

[silk dirge]

atla

[lean temple]

Yep, found it :D

[cerulean lantern]

why no shaw in silksong D:

[lean temple]

Soon

So I feel there is some contradiction with how the Steel Masters are presented. Jinn claims they don't seek order, and yet their faction is extremely rigid and ordered, they are quick to punish with notable cruelty anyone who breaks rules, for example they supervise the usage of void and punish rule breakers, and they have a whole city and society they rule. Seems like order to me ngl. Before skong I thought they were anarchists but now idk what their goals are.

[craggy smelt]

Jinn's reacting to the King's Brand, which she says she cannot acknowledge, so she might be trying to convey that the steel masters have different intentions than the pale beings - whatever they want, it isn't the order that someone like the Pale King imposes on the world

Zi makes some kind of similar remark, about how it's important to obey the masters, even/especially the 'higher' caste

[lean temple]

But Hornet says the same about Pale Beings, "devotion or destruction"

Which is also how the Masters work, loyalty and obedience or cruel punishment

[craggy smelt]

so far though they don't seem to want the same kind of expansive encompassing rule as pale beings

I can't shake the idea that they're a kind of balancing force - they can threaten the pale beings, and they also restrict usage of the Void, keeping both forces in check
Pale White, Void Black, Steel Grey

so, it's not 'order' they seek in that they don't want pale beings to dominate, but they also wouldn't want the Void to swallow everything

[lean temple]

I do like that theory but the "Not order, not order they seek" goes against it

[inner torrent]

Maybe they meant they don't seek to bring order to other kingdoms

[craggy smelt]

it depends on what Jinn means

[lean temple]

Wait so it seems they favor the existence of a Lord of Shades, which reigns in Void. That could strengthen the not wanting Void to run rampant theory

[muted lantern]

Can you clear out sandcarvers with bombs or do they just respawn

[lean temple]

Respawn

[craggy smelt]

also Jinn remarks that the Knight, once they've become the Lord of Shades, reminds Jinn of the masters

(really hope steeLC touches on that..._)

[lean temple]

That is true but the exact similarity is unclear. Maybe it's just mastering your nature, or something else we don't know

[lean temple]

God me too

[cerulean lantern]

WAIT. WHAT IF HORNET SAYS SHAW BECAUSE SHE IS TRYING TO SAY SHAWARMA BUT KEEPS GETTING CUT OFF

[lean temple]

Anyway, the keeping balance theory seems like a good one. The only problem is the whole order thing, but it could be the Masters have their own definition and concept of the types of order they like and don't like.

Which actually does make sense since Jinn's remark is reacting to the King's Brand, showing the order imposed by a Pale Being.

[muted lantern]

"Shaw" is actually a very hurtful anti-vessel slur, hence why she only uses it in the first game when shes fighting a vessel.

[cerulean lantern]

yeah

so she was actually trying to say shawarma

but kept getting cut off

so she stopped trying in silksong

https://tenor.com/view/think-emoji-thonk-meme-gif-11987870

[timber pond]

The stiltkins say Shaw sometimes...

[muted lantern]

They are high as balls on bilefumes and see vessels everywhere

[cerulean lantern]

STILKINS ARE RACIST

I KNEW IT

[timber pond]

So i think shaw is Just an aggressive combat slur

[muted lantern]

the moorbugs also say it

well, specifically the guys with bolas in moor and sinners

[timber pond]

NExt your gona tell me "Adilo" is R-18

[unique canopy]

They share voice lines with the stilkin trappers for some reason

[cerulean lantern]

its adino

not adilo

https://tenor.com/view/stoobid-steven-he-dumb-you-so-stoobid-gif-21984392

[unique canopy]

Also pretty sure the choir flying bell throwers say it too, although theirs is more like "shaAaAww"

[timber pond]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1236319380057624658/1382948709087842395/20240210_004012.gif

[cerulean lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/ok-boomer-the-office-old-man-michael-scott-gif-15530652

[timber pond]

The thing about the masters is, that they can deny even pale beings and higher beings. So that narrows down what they can even be

[unique canopy]

Complete stab in the dark but, what if the steel masters are themselves void beings in steel vessels?

[timber pond]

"Shades"

[unique canopy]

I don't even know if I want to call them shades, even that seems too limiting

[timber pond]

AKA The ancient Civilization Jumped into the void. MAde themselves into something else. Its not "emptiness". Regret. Much regret. Quickly Deny, Deny them the void, deny them the pale. Deny world.

[craggy smelt]

that'd be pretty neat~!
I'd wonder how they came about, and if they have any connection with the Ancient Civilization
Ancient Shades, or Ancient Vessels

[unique canopy]

Like if the ancient civilization jumped into the void, obviously that means the void was there first.

And that's what took form inside steel

I'm talking that ancient and primordial, moreso than even the ancient civilization

[timber pond]

Well that is something we cannot know

[unique canopy]

Like I said, complete stab in the dark

[timber pond]

The "Steel" itself comes from something else

[unique canopy]

(pun not intended obviously)

[craggy smelt]

I prefer the AC to be the oldest and most mysterious thing of all, with even the steel society not knowing what happened to them
but I'd hope for them to have knowledge of the ancients - more arcane eggs, stuff like that

[timber pond]

This "Home Rock"

[lean temple]

Could it be Pale Steel?

Or some similar alloy

[frigid belfry]

Survive my gauntlet

[timber pond]

Whatever it is, it comes from a 🪨

The answer to life is Rock

[lean temple]

The word used is rock of the home spear

[lean temple]

Well the Masters are seemingly very long lived, having remained the same between HK and SS, and likely being much much older still. They could have achieved immortality

[muted lantern]

Does anyone know what the naming scheme is for pilgrims?

[lean temple]

[Adjective] Pilgrim

[muted lantern]

I mean the named pilgrims like Sherma and pilby, and maybe the bellhart residents. Are their names from a particular culture?

[lean temple]

Oh my bad lol

[silk dirge]

it depends

[lean temple]

Unsure. The only derived name in HK I can think of is Salubra from the word salubrious

[silk dirge]

pilgrim enemies are all over the place

[timber pond]

This "home Spear"

[silk dirge]

you have pilgrim hulk on one hand and covetous pilgrim on the other

npc pilgrims are consistently [adjective] pilgrim tho

[timber pond]

The Answer to life is , Spear?

[muted lantern]

I'm looking for like a culture of origin for the names of pilgrims like Sherma, pilby, plinny, Pavo, etc.

[craggy smelt]

Pebb

(lotta P names...)

[lean temple]

Mort.

[muted lantern]

Do these names have a single country of origin or is it all over

[lean temple]

"The name Sherma is believed to have roots in Hebrew, deriving from the word "sherem," which means "to be free" or "to be liberated"

[silk dirge]

SHERMA IS JEWISH

I KNEW IT

[lean temple]

Free from what tho?

Sin? Haunting?

[silk dirge]

bro is going to do massive tikkun olam in act 4

my goat

[silk dirge]

the fate of other pilgrims maybe

[lean temple]

"The name Pavo primarily means "peacock", derived from Latin and associated with beauty and pride"

Makes sense

[silk dirge]

first result for pilby is silksong wiki lol

[lean temple]

Some names were likely made up

[silk dirge]

your telling me no one irl names their kid pious isamor

[lean temple]

"The name Pilby does not have a widely recognized origin, but the name Filby, a similar-sounding name, is a habitational surname from a place in Norfolk, England, likely derived from an Old Norse personal name and the word for "settlement". Pilby is also known as the name of an NPC in the video game Hollow Knight: Silksong. Some personality interpretations of the given name Pilby suggest it is associated with idealism and a desire to help others."

[lean temple]

It's an ai overview so take it with a grain of salt lol

[silk dirge]

mine said pilby might be derived from pilgrim

which i could see

[lean temple]

Pondcatcher Reed is pretty self explanatory

Imagine a miner being named "Ore" lol

Interestingly, Zi in chinese means graceful, and it can mean child (child of steel, eh?). Jinn also means silver in Japanese I think. Hmmmm

And the Steel language sounds like it is tonal (like chinese), at least that's an observation I've heard.

[edgy nebula]

i cant believe the steel city is actually just asia

[muted lantern]

Perfect name for a cat who lives in a church.

[lean temple]

We'll see if the next Steelheart we see has an Asian derived name

[muted lantern]

So why was hornet named such anyway

Since hornets aren't bees

[edgy nebula]

dont bees suffocate wasps if they intrude in their hive? what if vespa mockingly named hornet that because she was too cocky

[lean temple]

3 queens seems the most likely explanation now

[craggy smelt]

hornets and bees are a type of wasp

and the bee queen was named Vespa (wasp) after all

[craggy smelt]

I kinda like the idea of Hornet running away from Deepnest after Herrah went to sleep, then sneaking into the Hive to explore and getting found and adopted by Vespa

[muted lantern]

I heard something about hornets invading hives irl, which might make its so it could have been a joking nickname vespa gave to her on account of them being isolationist and hornet being the exception. Maybe the name just stuck.

[craggy smelt]

what if 'hornet' is a generic bee term for 'intruder' and it wound up sticking...?

I love that so much

[muted lantern]

Yeah I think this is the headcanon I'm gonna go with

[solemn hinge]

Funny cause Hornet and Vespa technically have the same names

[muted lantern]

Because it's cute to think Vespa gave hornet a funny nickname and it became so core to her identity that she kept it.

[muted lantern]

Vespa means wasp no? Not hornet

[solemn hinge]

Yeah but hornets are wasps

Wasps aren't nexessarily hornets tho

[lean temple]

We need an entomologist in here

[craggy smelt]

all hornets are wasps

but some wasps are bees

also, did you know all ants are also wasps?

so much shit is fucking wasps

[lean temple]

Phylogeny :D

[muted lantern]

Are the skarr based on fire ants?

[lean temple]

Seemingly

[solemn hinge]

That's what "red ants" are

And the Skarr are preeetty red

[lean temple]

"The red shells"

[frigid belfry]

sounds like a slur lmao

[muted lantern]

So based on actual fire ants, the wingless ones are all female no? The males in a colony are usually the winged ones, so that would be last claws and the winged skarr.

Mottled skarr is a ex last claw no? Does he have wings?

[lean temple]

Nope

Neither does Gurr iirc

[muted lantern]

Hmmm, interesting, guess it's not like the real world fire ants then

Tho isn't it largely believe mottled is a last claw?

[lean temple]

Also don't know about mottled being a last claw

First time I've heard this ngl

[edgy nebula]

he has a similar head wrapping but entirely different cloak, is also a little smaller iirc

[muted lantern]

That aside, gurr is a good point

Though I guess it's possible mottling makes them lose their wings, but that's a baseless assumption

[heavy gyro]

Bees aren't wasps

[lean temple]

There's that little mottled skarr that gives curvesickle too, so it isn't unique to males either

If we're assuming the others are female

[edgy nebula]

we dont know the mottled scout's gender i dont think

[muted lantern]

Skarr scouts are children iirc, so it's possible they hadn't grown in wings yet, but this theory doesn't seem likely anymore anyway.

[lean temple]

They are "young" ig

[lean temple]

Hornet calls him sir

[muted lantern]

That and the filename.

Which isn't explicitly canon

[lean temple]

Oh? What is it

[muted lantern]

But i think it gives insight into what the devs mean by young.

[muted lantern]

Bone_hunter_child iirc

[lean temple]

Hm

Karms is still laying eggs?

[muted lantern]

I'm not sure if she's the mother of them all, it's only said she United the tribes

[unique canopy]

Ant queens can live an insanely long time, relative to the rest of their colony

[muted lantern]

Implying there were prexisting tribes

[stray fog]

Why is widow called widow?

Is she named after widow spiders?

Or did her lover die

[stark ocean]

likely because she was a weaver but she lost her ability to make silk

i feel like widow here could also mean something like losing something important

in like a metaphorical way

[heavy needle]

Would you rather turkey pale being or turkey flavored dung beetle

[wintry plinth]

Apparently there was an interview that confirmed the return of sharpe?

So that's nice at least

[jaunty dagger]

I can't wait for lion village

[foggy fractal]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2025-11-28/the-makers-of-hollow-knight-silksong-aren-t-done-just-yet?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSIsImlhdCI6MTc2NDM3Njc1OCwiZXhwIjoxNzY0OTgxNTU4LCJhcnRpY2xlSWQiOiJUNkczNjFLR0NUSDAwMCIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQiOiJCMUVBQkI5NjQ2QUM0REZFQTJBRkI4MjI1MzgyQTJFQSJ9.frzbrfK-Qvq7f4KIROH5Ujhwebk0mVcG_7NDjTEeF5Y&embedded-checkout=true&leadSource=uverify wall
yep

[jaunty dagger]

The village full of lions

[solemn hinge]

No fr what is that

[visual glacier]

Antlions probably

[timber pond]

I mean we have craws

[wintry plinth]

Thanks dssdn

[timber pond]

What if they make a weird design that is like antlions and actual lions

Cursed

Cause like you could argue that Craws are both Crows and horseflies or something

[wintry plinth]

I know this custom map for steel dlc is fanmade, but seeing something of this scale would legit be insane

[slow locust]

guys guys

like

what tf are you doing

[timber pond]

Interview.

[jaunty dagger]

Don't even get me started on Velvet Ants.

[narrow horizon]

or, perhaps

it's her name

💔

[stray fog]

Why

[narrow horizon]

why is dung defender's name ogrim

why is hornet's name hornet

why is herrah's name herrah

[stray fog]

It would be weird to name yourself "girl with dead husband"

[narrow horizon]

but it's not weird to be named "angry wasp lookin thing"

it's just a cool name

it doesn't need a meaning

also, she's a weaver, which are based around spiders

black widows are prominent spiders

[stray fog]

That's what Im thinking too

[narrow horizon]

it could have a meaning but we don't know lol it could also just be a sick name that tc thought was cool

[dry bridge]

Well, she's also the last of the first, iirc, and the only one still loyal to GMS (who is in the orb and limmited in activity) it's not exactly a dead partner, but there's parallels in there I think.

[slow locust]

it's like bitch i trained you daughter let me choose her name

and called her another spelling of her name

also bluesr is speaking in sk discussion coff

[timber pond]

I mean i sort of think the apeal of hollow knight is that both things might be true. at least for me. its cool just cause, but that simple reason leads to a Depth we can never know.

That 2 hour philosiphy video about the first game breaks down that concept really well

[craggy smelt]

I love those things.

[muted lantern]

It would be really funny if it was a play on words, like shes a widow because she lost her mate, and shes also a black widow in the sense shes a spider and that the reason her mate is dead is because she ate them.

[stray fog]

Black widows do that?

Crazy

[muted lantern]

female black widows are known to eat their mates, though people think its more common than it is.

but its a super popular concept in pop culture, so i imagine that would be the basis of the joke if that was the intent.

[stray fog]

Wait is this why black widows are named black widows irl?

[muted lantern]

no clue, possible

[jaunty dagger]

Yep, the males are free loaders so it's justified 😊

That's why Hornet kills the Green Prince.

[heavy gyro]

Wasps, ants, and bees are in the same order but that doesn't mean ants or bees are wasps

[foggy fractal]

how does thk know how to teleport, seems void related given the vfx and sprite change where their head is turned black

[lean osprey]

this is outdated, we used to classify them in the super-family vespoidea alongside wasps but phylogenetic analysis puts them outside that group and hence no longer vespoids like wasps

taxonomy is an absolute mess

[dusky bay]

So is blasted steps coral groal-

[silk dirge]

wait a minute isnt sands of karak a literal australia reference

with how the great barrier reef is dying

[craggy smelt]

boo

curse the inevitable progress of science

are termites still a type of cockroach?

(they better be...)

[lean osprey]

i actually have no idea

i wasnt even aware of that

yea its a similar situation where we were wrong in a different way, genetic testing revealed they're actually a eusocial cockroach which we didnt know

so you still have that one

i really do hate taxonomy

[stark ocean]

[past raft]

pilgrimage evil 👍

[knotty dome]

Guys quick steel assasins theories?

Or what might come out of the dlcs

[dire lynx]

lion village

[craggy smelt]

they're coming to punish Hornet for Void Crimes

[fossil veldt]

Yall I need to know because I feel like I'm going crazy.
Has anyone else noticed the Radiance crests in Greymoor and Sinner's Road? I have seen literally no one else point it out and I feel insane

[craggy smelt]

you mean pointy stuff like this?

[fossil veldt]

yeah

[craggy smelt]

I think it's just pointy

[fossil veldt]

In HK, the radial design of Radiance's crest appeared exclusively in places related to radiance, so it seemed weird to see it in pharloom

[stray fog]

Just a coincidence imo

[fossil veldt]

ok, just hear me out a sec

so this is radiance's crest

now, you can tell me this and the gate at sinner's road are just similar and unrelated

but you CANNOT tell me this guy's staff doesn't look exactly the same

[quartz spruce]

If I understand the story correctly, isn't everything the fault of the Weavers? The whole religious caste and citadel system was created by them, not by GMS. GMS just wanted her spider children to sing to her. She didn't create an industrial hellscape. The only thing GMS was guilty of was the Haunting, and again, that was because the Weavers betrayed her and locked her away.

[peak harbor]

depending on how you perceive it, the weavers definitely were the direct cause for most of the terrible things happening within pharloom. what instigated them was their desire for freedom from gms, though; we don't really know much on the relationship between gms and the weavers, so we can only base how she may have treated them on how they reacted to her

[fossil veldt]

I'm pretty sure the Weavers created the concept of the citadel and the religion behind it, as a trap to keep GMS asleep. I think it was the Conductors who created the whole class division, the working class in the underworks, and the silk experiments in the whiteward, taking advantage of the religious trauma created by the weavers.

[dire lynx]

weavers were involved in whiteward

there are silkfly lamps in weavnest atla

[peak harbor]

interesting... team cherry typically uses visual motifs very particularly, but i genuinely cannot tell why they'd choose to include the radiance's motifs for sinner's road and some staffs ingame specifically

[fossil veldt]

I don't think so? Because why would they want to make bugs inmortal. That would just make the citadel unsustainable. The whole concept of pilgrimage was their way of keeping new bugs constantly joining the choir

[quartz spruce]

Apparently as Higher Beings weavers also have a drive to rule. So they probably had an innate desire to usurp GMS. According to the Caretaker, anyway. Even Hornet seems to agree with him

So it might not even necessarily be that GMS was a tyrant (at least, before the events of the game). Just that the Weavers wanted a kingdom of their own.

[fossil veldt]

Weavers aren't higher beings tho? At least, I don't think they are. First Sinner explicitly said GMS lied about them being divine. So they're probably way stronger than a regular bug, but not higher beings

[peak harbor]

i'm not sure that's where it stems from? the tone i got from my playthrough was that hornet's desire to rule came from PK / her descension from pale beings, er wryms in this case. not the weavers

the weavers DID want her to strike down GMS, but i don't think this is an 'instictual' desire per se and just the desire born of whatever GMS was to them as a ruler

[quartz spruce]

Part Higher Being. Hornet observes the same thing. "Dominance, it seems, is baked deep in my blood"

[dire lynx]

there are silkfly lamps in weavenest, therefore they were

[fossil veldt]

I think GMS had a fundamentally wrong concept of motherhood. She called the weavers her daughters, but she lied about their origins. She wanted to keep her children close, eternally singing to her, but refused to let them go. And I think it is implied that, when someone (like First Sinner) refused to worship her, she would retaliate (in First Sinner's case, locking her up forever).
So the weavers felt betrayed and trapped, and so, they put GMS to sleep and took over Pharloom

[fossil veldt]

I think Hornet's Higher Being part comes from the Pale King

[quartz spruce]

Whiteward was created during their rule and it involved Silk experimentation, which the Weavers were experts at. They most likely had a hand in creating it. Makes sense I suppose; the entire point of the Citadel was to lure Pilgrims to sing eternally, to ensure that GMS stays locked aware. If you can keep them alive longer through silk, that means more singing.

[peak harbor]

that's the take i got as well. though i wonder the extent of how she may possibly have mistreated them, or the lack thereof - was she a particularly controlling god, or did the weavers simply want to be free of her?

[quartz spruce]

Yeah that's fair. Apparently that's why the First Sinner betrayed GMS; she worked out that their existence was a lie.

[quartz spruce]

Probably a little bit of both. Lace desperately wants her mother's approval too, and poor Phantom was discarded because she was a flawed creation.

If Silk is a manifestation of GMS's soul, wouldn't Weavers possess some traits of a higher being? They literally have a fragment of a god within them.

[peak harbor]

yea; it's a shame that we can only extrapolate from what we learn of her throughout our playthrough and how she treats lace & phantom. i do hope we get a dlc at some point exploring GMS in her prime, or how she was in the distant past

[quartz spruce]

So if you think about it, Hornet is mostly god; she has a part of GMS and a part of a Wyrm in her.
Which means that Ghost is mostly void, being part Wyrm within a void body.

Light and Dark, basically

[fossil veldt]

yeah, but in its original concept, the Citadel was a place with very humble decoration, where bugs had very sparce meals and resources. I think the Weavers did this because, if bugs got to live in luxury there, it would be unsustainable. It was the conductors who later made the citadel luxurious for the chosen few, at the expense of the bugs in the underworks and the lands around the citadel.
Which brings me to my point, if bugs kept coming to the citadel, and the ones who came there became inmortal, wouldn't it just become overpopulated? Wouldn't it be a backfiring decision?
Besides, I think the whole point of the whiteward was that the conductors filled themselves and the bugs in the citadel with silk, which later made it easier for them to fall to the hunting. They literally brought their own downfall

[fossil veldt]

I actually never noticed that I might have to look into it

[quartz spruce]

Where is the fluff about the Conductors? I can't find much about them. Other that they are one of the caretakers of the melody and seem to be the managerial class?
I know that the Unravelled appears to be a conductor, but that doesn't really say much other than everyone ended up down there.

[peak harbor]

that's true! hornet does become a god in her 'bad' ending. actually, when you think about it, it's interesting how the ideal ending for HK has the knight ascend (or maybe descend) to becoming one with the void, while the ideal ending for SS has hornet choose to remain semimortal, turning away from her godly desires

[quartz spruce]

That's not the bad ending though. She becomes a tree in her bad ending.
So Light, Dark and...wood?

[peak harbor]

that's the second bad ending, of a kind. though the one where she becomes a god, i'd argue, is also rather terrible

[fossil veldt]

The conductors were the main rulers of the citadel. They were entrusted with that rule right before the Weavers fled Pharloom (after they realized GMS would inevitably wake up eventually). You can get most of the info about them from Conductor Ballador's dialogue, and the thing about the difference between their rule and the original structure of the citadel comes from Pious Isamor's lines

[quartz spruce]

What even is the Parasite? I don't think it's a Void Entity, as it doesn't seem to have any traits with it. Apparently it's scary enough to make even a weaver AI panic.

[dire lynx]

Eva is not an AI

[peak harbor]

the parasite seems to be related to the white lady, being a root as well. we know very little about roots save for the fact they may be related to the everblooms

and the parasite seems to not be of the same species of root as the white lady

i mean

[quartz spruce]

I mean, she's basically an AI. Disembodied voice in a machine.

That sort of thing

[dire lynx]

shes a living thing that cant survive out of her iron lung, essentially

[quartz spruce]

Oh. Fair enough then

[fossil veldt]

Eva isn't a machine, I think she was an attempt by the weavers to create a god that could fight GMS. But she was born too frail, so the machine she's trapped in is actually what keeps her alive

[fossil veldt]

yup

[peak harbor]

is it possible she's also silk-based/born like phantom and lace?

[fossil veldt]

probably

[quartz spruce]

Yeah that makes sense. It would be logical for Weavers to attempt to recreate the arts of their creator.

[fossil veldt]

but she's probably not made purely out of silk, because then she would need a constant supply of silk to keep her alive, like phantom and lace. I think she was made mostly from the weaver's silk runes? We know those are not a power of GMS but rahter a craft created by the weavers themselves. Which would explain why Eva came out so frail

[peak harbor]

that makes sense, especially since most of our interactions with the weavers involve silk runes/skills

[fossil veldt]

which reminds me, @dire lynx where did you find those silkfly lamps in weavenest? Cuz so far, I've only seen the rune-powered lamps

[dire lynx]

screenshot

@fossil veldt

[fossil veldt]

damn that's true

I still don't think the weavers made the whiteward, cuz of my point about the citadel overpopulation. Maybe the weavers were experimenting on common bugs before they left Pharloom, and then the Conductors used the results of their research? We know the weavers had a pretty bad reputation, so it's possible

[dire lynx]

i wouldnt be suprised if eva was created in whiteward, she refers to herself as "a child of weavers" and the weavers call her "the despised child"
they couldve been experimenting on pregnant weavers with silk and such to create a more powerful form of child

[fossil veldt]

Ok, but that brings a question. What the hell were the weavers getting pregnant by? Can they even reproduce by themselves?

[dire lynx]

they can, its just insanely difficult
was born within this space. To leave would be my death, an uninspired end, though one I've sometimes wished would come.
I am unique, you see. My mothers shared the curse of their tribe, to conceive a child is a painful, near impossible task.
Hornet: I know the curse well, Eva, for I am also its victim, and spawn of one who managed to overcome its limits.

[fossil veldt]

wow, never saw that dialogue. Wait, but if Eva said she was "born within that space", wouldn't that rule out the theory that she was born in the whiteward?

[fossil veldt]

still, that only says that it's possible for the weavers to concive, but it doesn't say anything about them being able to reproduce with eachother. They probably still need other types of bugs to do that

[dire lynx]

the chamber couldve been moved

[fossil veldt]

I think that's unlikely. And even so, the architecture of the whiteward looks very much like Citadel architecture, and nothing like weaver architecture.
Except for maybe the Silk Syphoon, which might add plausibility for the theory of the weavers inventing the process of creating silkflies, and the Conductors using that to mass-produce them

[dire lynx]

silkflies are also in karmelitas memory, they were already widespread historically. weavers for sure were doing the silkfly stuff, the conductors and architects just started using it for the automatons

[fossil veldt]

the skarr tribe did exist during the reign of the conductors tho, didn't it? It only fell due to the haunting, which happened long after the Conductors had started experimenting in the whiteward

not saying the Weavers weren't producing silkflies while they were in pharloom, they probably were. But I think the Skarr using them for illumination could have happened before or after they left. And considering how weavenests were sealed and could only be opened by weavers, I think it's more likely that silkflies spread after the weavers left.
But like I said, it could have been either way

[dire lynx]

the weavers also probably built the architects

who are powered by silkflies

[fossil veldt]

actually yeah, that makes sense

so the weavers probably did create the Silk Syphoon

I'm still not sure about them making bugs inmortal tho, I still think that was a conductor thing

[hearty bolt]

are the collectable fleas all like very young ones oor

since they dont talk

they dont seem to be pets or a flea subspecies

[inner torrent]

Is Bilewater an official name or a nickname shakra/hornet came into?

[inner torrent]

And a mechanic heart

[fossil veldt]

I would say yes, because Mooshka keeps calling them "little ones". Then again, it seems Mooshka, Varga and Grishkin did not actually know the fleas in Pharloom before they joined their caravan, and I'm not sure if the huge flea is fully grown or just a really big kid. So I wouldn't discard fleas having varying degrees of inteligence

[hearty bolt]

wasn't the huge flea mayhaps a memorium experiment

[inner torrent]

Probably, like the big mossgrubs

[fossil veldt]

could be

or maybe they just captured it and kept it in the memorium precisely because it was abnormaly big, idk

[abstract rivet]

to those who say sharpe would be cut

lets go gang

[stray hearth]

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-nightmare-king-grimm-edit-gif-6244953607213386862

[quartz spruce]

Does anyone else find it darkly amusing that Pharloom, a kingdom created and ruled by spiders, was intended to draw in insects to provide sustenance for an even bigger spider and also feed the spider capital? I find that funny as hell.

Like, the country even has webs everywhere

[river yarrow]

can anyone explain this? I have used needolin, yet still not understand

[quartz spruce]

Pharloom is literally one big trap for bugs

[lilac hedge]

gurrs victims

just what he hunted

[river yarrow]

so they're no one? just gurr's targets?

[lilac hedge]

just enemies in the game bru

last claw grand reed, craws etc..

[river yarrow]

okay2, thank you

[lilac hedge]

and you were the next one btw thats why theres an empty spot

[quartz spruce]

Act 3 sounds wild. I should get around to getting there

Eventually. After my backlog

Should do Twisted Child first for the cheevo though.

[inner torrent]

I FUCKING KNEW IT

[inner torrent]

Damn, pharloom is an spiderweb

[quartz spruce]

Pharloom is Australia.

Bilewater was clearly based on Team Cherry's daily commute

[twin dragon]

She was created in the weavenest atla

among other failed ways to get rid of gms

[inner torrent]

Could you imagine if Eva was successful?

Maybe with the use of void

[twin dragon]

What

why

void has nothing to do with this

[lean temple]

Eva is a mock Pale Being why would they use void

[twin dragon]

She was most likely intended to bind gms

The void is smt that the weavers seemingly didn't dare to touch past one weavenest

[lean temple]

The one wise thing they did

[lean temple]

Even Hornet can't do that (without consequences) so that plan was a bust

[twin dragon]

hornet CAN bind gms

she literally DOES

[lean temple]

GMS overpowers

[twin dragon]

no

it's hornet

[fossil veldt]

Yea but void is known to be pretty damn powerful. And also pretty damn efective at consuming gods.
And void beings don't really need any nutrients or anything to sustain themselves
If it weren't so unstable and impossible to control, the weavers could have used void in Eva's creation, which might have made her less fragile
Or meybe not, who knows

[twin dragon]

but left ambiguous but presumably hornet

[lean temple]

That's not "Hornet" anymore

[twin dragon]

the inverse happens in the cut ending

[twin dragon]

it is hornet

just

probably changed

a lot

[lean temple]

Yes, so not the Hornet we know anymore

[twin dragon]

Also we see in the cut ending gms literally binding hornet

and it doesn't have the same result

[lean temple]

Well, it's cut

[twin dragon]

still

[twin dragon]

It still IS hornet though

not gms

[lean temple]

Her desires for dominion were probably put into hyperdrive because of it

Arguably it isn't our Hornet anymore

[twin dragon]

Yeah but even if hornet absorbed a thousand natures she would probably still be hornet

hornet with the parasite is STILL hornet

[lean temple]

She is hesitant to bind Eva

[twin dragon]

a very changed hornet now with gms's nature

[twin dragon]

Because eva would lose her consciousness

and not be a living thing anymore

[lean temple]

Hornet: I am sorry, Eva. I cannot grant you this. At least, not yet.
Hornet: Yours is a mind strong and strange. That union could prove dangerous to my identity.

[inner torrent]

No?

[lean temple]

"My identity"

[inner torrent]

That was a discarded ending

[twin dragon]

yeah, her identity

[inner torrent]

And in that ending gms BIND hornet

[twin dragon]

even if it could change hornet would still be hornet

Weaver queen hornet still has part of hornet's nature

possibly

we dont know

[lean temple]

That's what I'm saying man. It is Hornet just not OUR Hornet anymore

[twin dragon]

Gms doesn't overpower her

[inner torrent]

Yep, although the excess of silk product of her transformation would probably destroy and kill lots of citadel bugs, she would still be herself, just maybe more adept to instincts higher beings have

[twin dragon]

hornet maybe embraced her nature, but it's still hornet

she probably would keep her traits albeit more power hungry

[inner torrent]

It's not less hornet than child hornet

[lean temple]

Hornet is opposed to dominance and rule

It is less Hornet, yes.

[inner torrent]

But change is part of nature.
Child hornet is quite different to actual hornet

[twin dragon]

But hornet overpowers gms

to take her nature

not viceversa

also if hornet does that she fell to her wyrm/weaver instinct anyways

[inner torrent]

If something silk would overpower her, because gms identity is just not there anymore

[lean temple]

We don't know what GMS's intentions are, and it is clear her power still fundamentally altered Hornet

If the word overpower isn't accurate, then alter is better. GMS's power alters Hornet fundamentally

[twin dragon]

Not her power, but nature

hornet absorbs her very being

[lean temple]

Who knows what would've happened to Eva in this case

[inner torrent]

Probably similar, it's funny, if Eva was successful, she wouldn't have been much different to just create another gms

[twin dragon]

She puts gms under her basically

[inner torrent]

Although, maybe this time more akin to the weavers

[twin dragon]

She would've been more grounded

she doesn't transform into gms, she might get powerhungry but she would prob be more constrained

[inner torrent]

Yep, like a pet god for the weavers, who knows if their relationship would have worked after it.

[past cypress]

Hornet says multiple times that binding Eva could be dangerous because Hornet could literally lose her mind, that's exactly what happened with binding GMS. If Hornet overpowered her it wouldn't be a bad ending and she sure as hell wouldn't subject Pharloom to more bullshit

[terse warren]

"multiple times"

once, in passing

"Hornet: I am sorry, Eva. I cannot grant you this. At least, not yet.

Hornet: Yours is a mind strong and strange. That union could prove dangerous to my identity."

it's not about overpowering

Binding someone is literally taking a piece of their identity into yourself

[cedar skiff]

jesus christ man

that does not look healthy

[terse warren]

weavers really were so nice to each other uh

[past cypress]

You think?

[silk dirge]

me when i get my face ripped off

[wary plover]

Wait wtf There's a needle stuck inside forth chorus?

It looks like the pinstress's needle

[solemn hinge]

It’s from the Seamstress

From memory, the Fourth Courus was sent to take care of the Seamstress by the Citadel, and she beat it up

[blissful harbor]

widow getting that clockwork orange on steriods

[wary plover]

Omg

And she unsealed it to test hornet?

[solemn hinge]

Uhhh something like that

Or it awakened when it saw a Pinstress’ cloak

[lone folio]

no it just reactivated

it probaqbly detected seamstress because hornet was wearing a cloak made by her

[solemn hinge]

Yeah for one reason or another it reawakened

[lone folio]

it woke up after realising that the main character of silksong is in the game and that means that the game came out

you see chorus is a hardcore gamer

[solemn hinge]

Yeah the Pin is still there

If the Seamstress wanted to test Hornet, the Pin would have been removed I bet

[inner torrent]

Damn what's happening here?

Is that a sprite in files?

[solemn hinge]

Yea lol what is that from

[inner torrent]

Actually

The weaver queen ending is supposed to be a "Who knows what will happen" ending

Just as the endings where the knight focuses radiance.
In this case is supposed to be an ending where we don't know if hornet's nature will remain, or she will become just another higher being in seek of control

[tepid mountain]

It’s a possible recreation of a scene using cut sprites.

[inner torrent]

Interesting

[stray fog]

Yeah tc said that in their recent interview

Weaver queen is supposed to be ambiguous about whether it is good of bad

[lilac hedge]

when did that happen bru

[sinful nimbus]

To a player who hasn't gotten to Act 3

Hornet's interaction with Caretaker before Silk and Soul confirms its bad

[silk dirge]

i do think the idea of just letting people leave off at the normal ending if they want to is fine but like idk who actually did that

more people have done sotv than dnm according to steam achievements

[lean temple]

Wait what?

[sinful nimbus]

Silk and Soul has got to be in the top 10 list of worst video game choices ever

TC when they have to shoot all replayability because uh some players don't want to get true ending or something

[lean temple]

That's crazy. DNM is 20% and SotV is 27%

[spark valve]

HK probably has a lot more people drop early

[stray fog]

I also thought that it was bad but then tc said it wasn't in their interview

[sinful nimbus]

they didn't tho?

[sinful nimbus]

This is specifically about players who haven't gotten to silk and soul

Which is when the game explicitly confirms its bad

[stray fog]

True

The general vibe of the weaver queen cutscene also seemed negative imo

[wise sand]

I felt like I had gotten the bad ending when I did weaver queen

[silk dirge]

tbh idk how i wouldve done silk and soul

bc you have to have the player complete a lot of wishes for it to make sense hornet wants to reject weaver queen

[wise sand]

??

[sinful nimbus]

Silk and Soul killed my grandma ok

[spark valve]

It could’ve just been that

[wise sand]

How does silk and soul affect replayability

[sinful nimbus]

Having to do a bunch of monotonous and tedious side quests is laaaame

[wise sand]

Not really

[sinful nimbus]

Also double jump is mandatory which is entirely arbitrary progression should be dictated by map design in a metroidvania

[wise sand]

Its mostly stuff you do naturally

[stray fog]

I wish there were less gathering quests

[sinful nimbus]

I don't "naturally" do Crawbug Clearing

[wise sand]

I did

[silk dirge]

i feel like the main important quests for silk and soul are sherma and shakra

[stray fog]

Or atleast the amount of items to gather should've been lower

[silk dirge]

the other ones arent needed

[wise sand]

Isnt that literally progression being dictated my map design

[sinful nimbus]

No

[wise sand]

You need double jump to get to groal anyways

[sinful nimbus]

No you don't

Skips exist

[cedar skiff]

random thought i think its interesting how close weaver queen is to thk as endings and all, hornet practically sealing gms within her only for that to be bound to fail anyway (kinda but also not)

thus i can make lace’s “its you she wants is it not?” another parallel to thk because in this case hornet would be the perfect vessel (more accurately perfect inheritor of gms but yeah)

[sinful nimbus]

Silk and Soul invalidates those harming replayability

[stray fog]

Intended skips or speedrun strats?

[cedar skiff]

me at the bullshit pure vessel lace parallels function

[wise sand]

Speedrun strats

[stray fog]

(I know that skips aren't exactly unintended)

[sinful nimbus]

It doesn't matter

[silk dirge]

what skips to groal still exist

[sinful nimbus]

The point is the way the game is designed doesn't facilitate skips, intended or not, which harms replayability

[silk dirge]

beast crest got patched

[wise sand]

Those are basically glitches atp

[sinful nimbus]

Hollow Knight was designed in a way where you didn't need double jump to 110% the game and get Dream No More

Because it doesn't arbitrarily lock stuff behind getting double jump for no reason

[cedar skiff]

silksong has way better replayability than hollow knight

[wise sand]

Dont you need double jump to do stuff in act 3

[spark valve]

silksong has better replayability due to crests but the act framing is whatever

[wise sand]

Its probably just to prevent somebody from softlocking themself

[sinful nimbus]

Which is poor map design

[silk dirge]

the only thing i can think of is its possible to get softlocked in the abyss but im not sure if thats true

[unique canopy]

Imagine a methodical exploration-based game that isn't designed around speedrunners skipping 90% of it, clearly bad design

[sinful nimbus]

Silksong replayability isn't really all that in comparison to Hollow Knight I'm afraid I spent like 95 hours before going to modded

[sinful nimbus]

So, Hollow Knight

HK was designed in a way where the average joe is going to get double jump but if you don't want it you don't have to grab it and that made for a cool challenge and the skips gave it a lot more replayability

[silk dirge]

anyways yeah thats the main problem with doing anything with silk and soul is that whatever you do it needs to make sense hornet rejects weaver queen

[wise sand]

Be so fr the double jump requirement affects less than 1% of players

[whole holly]

Pharloom is way more linear than Hallownest, but i think it's meat to be

[silk dirge]

idk how you could do that with just map design tho is the issue

[sinful nimbus]

And if they didn't want you to skip it they could've made the map design not allow you to skip it instead of an arbitrary quest unlock that isn't communicated to the player

[stray fog]

I wouldn't have questioned hornet rejecting that ending even if the requirements were a lot lower

[cedar skiff]

pharloom being linear is very much tied to its story too

[sinful nimbus]

It affects me

[cedar skiff]

not being able to complete the threefold song without the weaver techniques is kinda the point

[silk dirge]

yeah that makes sense

[sinful nimbus]

Silk and Soul isn't friendly to challenge runs

[wise sand]

Are you a speedrunner?

[sinful nimbus]

Or casual play since you need to do a bunch of filler quests

[silk dirge]

i mean like i think its fine bc true ending in hk required collecting essence

[wise sand]

They're not even really filler

[sinful nimbus]

No but I was looking forward to challenge running the game

[heavy gyro]

Starpengu try not to grasp at straws challenge

[whole holly]

yeah, it is intentional

[silk dirge]

so if there were less quests required it would be fine

[unique canopy]

But you just said that kind of map design is bad because not having skips negatively affects replayability

[wise sand]

Bro just wants a boss rush with some exploration inbetween

[whole holly]

it adds challenge to challenge runs

[sinful nimbus]

The map design DOES have skips you can pull off actually

Silk and Soul just invalidates all of that

[wise sand]

Its literally the difference of one item

[stray fog]

I thought I was the only one who found it to be linear

Story aside, I wish it wasn't linear. That's the fun part of the first game

[sinful nimbus]

Silk and Soul isn't map design its a quest with arbitrary unlocks that aren't communicated to the player

[wise sand]

Idk i got it without help besides knowing that act 3 exists

[cedar skiff]

the thing is you have many ways to tackle the linear progression

[unique canopy]

Rewarding a player for exploring in an exploration-based game is "arbitrary"

[cedar skiff]

you have two ways to enter act 2

[silk dirge]

my main issue with silk and soul is fleatopia

why does fleatopia exist

as a requirement

[cedar skiff]

?

ohhh

[heavy gyro]

Ig for it to make sense in act 3

[cedar skiff]

i thought you were hating on my goat fleamaster mooshka

[sinful nimbus]

Well metroidvanias reward the player with abilities unlocking new portions of the map not with new quests yes

[whole holly]

me too tbh

[stray fog]

It rewards completionists

[silk dirge]

shakra and sherma make sense

they need to be in specific spots for act 3

fleas are immortal theyll be fine lol

[cedar skiff]

fleatopia is hopecore

[unique canopy]

Formulaic game design is bad and kills creativity

[past cypress]

Those aren't vague tho. The Knight will fail eventually, that's a guarantee. Hallownest is stuck in a cycle of being 90% dead

[whole holly]

i am completionist, i like Silksong more than Hollow Knight, gameplay wise at least

[silk dirge]

how tf did fleas traverse ducts

or get up blasted steps

[sinful nimbus]

In this example the formulaic game design is far superior to whatever Team Cherry was trying to pull off

[silk dirge]

these mfs are built different

[abstract rivet]

are they?

[whole holly]

story feels like it's missing something

[cedar skiff]

flea powerscaling

[sinful nimbus]

Mindlessly meandering around until you get a quest isn't fun

[lilac hedge]

they cooked moorwing, you think they cant kill normal enemies

[stray fog]

Strength in numbers

[wise sand]

Silksong does both

[silk dirge]

i mean these guys are insane lol they get around like crazy

[unique canopy]

Exploring in an exploration-based game is "mindlessly meandering"

[wise sand]

I like the quests tbh

[whole holly]

i can't relate to that experience

[whole holly]

me too

[silk dirge]

like fleas mustve found some crazy side routes

otherwise i have 0 idea how they got where they did

[lilac hedge]

they just fly there mate

[sinful nimbus]

Most of Silk and Soul isn't "exploring" its grinding monotonous quests

[inner torrent]

It depends of it being hollow or not

[unique canopy]

I unlocked Silk & Soul blind on my first playthrough because I ... played the game and explored and did things. Imagine actually playing the game, what a concept.

[inner torrent]

And that's basically impossible to know, although, winged nosk may disprove that

[abstract rivet]

You know this game is 3D depicted 2D right

[silk dirge]

yeah

but its funny

[wise sand]

Stuff you should've done anyways tbh

[whole holly]

which wouldn't have happened if player explored

[abstract rivet]

so they could’ve find a way that our dimension of playing cannot make a path from

[inner torrent]

Yep, the pins, naking pilgrims

[sinful nimbus]

But I did explore and I still had to do it

Also I'm specifically talking about REPEAT PLAYTHROUGHS

[heavy gyro]

Skill issue

[wise sand]

I just did quests as they came up for the most part

[whole holly]

agree

[unique canopy]

On repeat playthroughs you already know the requirements and can do them as you go along

[cedar skiff]

just because the replayability isnt catered to how you like it doesnt mean its bad

2/10 ragebait

[past cypress]

Which it isn't

[whole holly]

yeah and barely had to do anything for silk and soul

[stray fog]

Most of those quests aren't monotonous

The only ones that are like that are those where you need to gather 25 choirbugs' clothes, pins, etc.

[sinful nimbus]

Which is still boring yes

[abstract rivet]

I agree with Starpengu I think locking act 3 behind fetch quests is silly

[sinful nimbus]

So Crawbug Clearing... which is mandatory

There's also Shakra's quest which is literally just an unskippable cutscene

Also mandatory

[silk dirge]

yeah sherma and shakra are fine as requirements imo bc they need to have their quests finished for act 3 to work

[past cypress]

You can get this one for free from a single stroll through Craw Lake

[whole holly]

and priceless, it adds to replayability actually

[silk dirge]

idk what they were cooking with fleatopia as a requirement tho

or crawbug clearing

[sinful nimbus]

I don't really have much reason to go through craw lake after a single visit

[whole holly]

i agree with that honestly

[abstract rivet]

I agree that sherma and shakra quests shouldve been done but I dont know why we have to complete fetch quest for towns thatll get fucked

[stray fog]

That isn't boring
You track shakra and get some lore

[sinful nimbus]

That's not engaging gameplay

[abstract rivet]

For finding fleas i’ll still do it so who cares abt that

[sinful nimbus]

And I don't "get some lore" on a second playthrough

[abstract rivet]

yeah its a chore on second playthrough

It hurts replayability

[silk dirge]

i feel like a skip cutscene button would be good for silksong

[stray fog]

True

[abstract rivet]

We love this game but it’s not perfect sadly

[sinful nimbus]

They made one they just don't use it arbitrarily

[abstract rivet]

Just like every piece of art

[sinful nimbus]

Want to skip the fakeout ending? No. Want to skip the fakeout credits? No. Want to skip out the pseudo cutscenes at the start of Act 3? No. Want to skip the Beastling cutscene? No.

[whole holly]

i agree, we should see substantive changes to towns improving

[sinful nimbus]

Want to skip the 6 minute memory sequence? Nope. Also have fun backtracking to the final boss arena

[past cypress]

Oh no 20 second unskippable cutscenes in my 20 hour game

[sinful nimbus]

Why is the Diving Bell cutscene unskippable

[limpid summit]

That rush when you discover peenis isamor

[spark valve]

pious

[sinful nimbus]

Its not a welcome addition yeah

[past cypress]

No I think it's peenis actually

[unique canopy]

Replays should let me skip bosses because I already beat them on my first run

[sinful nimbus]

Its literally not that hard to put a skip option somewhere in the menu

[abstract rivet]

It doesn’t matter that much thoo

[unique canopy]

Also they should let me skip entire areas since I already explored them in a previous run

[limpid summit]

I didn’t get much lore on my second run besides like steel soul stuff

[unique canopy]

Just let me skip everything

[limpid summit]

Star complain complain complain

[stray fog]

How can story related stuff work with replayability though

Its not like the story is gonna change every playthrough

[silk dirge]

why does diving bell cutscene exist at all thh

[abstract rivet]

silksong lacks cutscenes anyways it has low amount of it

[limpid summit]

Enjoy your 10 second lace cutscene

[sinful nimbus]

A skip button

Why is story even taking priority over gameplay

[abstract rivet]

fr

[past cypress]

The ONLY annoying cutscene is all the Moss Grotto stuff. HK had me outta there in a minute

[unique canopy]

Give me a button at the start of the game that skips ahead to the end credits, this is definitely a good change that would add to the replayability of this game

[past cypress]

💀

[cedar skiff]

truth nuke!

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-silk-song-silksong-hollow-knight-silksong-hollow-knight-hornet-gif-16905623178320602894

i need more of this peak

[sinful nimbus]

You understand how there's a difference between wanting to skip gameplay and wanting to skip cutscenes right

[ancient sinew]

uh… mods?

[silk dirge]

https://tenor.com/view/ss-sk-skong-silk-song-gif-6069929492524291916

[sinful nimbus]

Because skippable cutscenes are basically a standard atp idk why Silksong is so behind

[abstract rivet]

literally not what he said

but ok

[past cypress]

Cutscenes are gameplay if you're a true narrative enjoyer

[cedar skiff]

exceptional gif wow

[abstract rivet]

Yes bro the diving bell cutscene is so much enjoyment for a narrative enjoyer

I don’t mean that I agree with him

[cedar skiff]

its pretty

[abstract rivet]

But what do u mean gng

[limpid summit]

What role do we think the adult weaver would have played in Silksong

[sinful nimbus]

The credits added so much to the narrative 😍

[past cypress]

True...

[stray fog]

Which one?

[past cypress]

We already have adult weavers

[unique canopy]

Bad gif, game would be improved if you could just skip that boss completely and get the reward for free

[limpid summit]

The HK one

[past cypress]

Are you talking about Midwife?

[limpid summit]

We only see one living weaver and she’s insane

[past cypress]

She isn't a weaver iirc

[silk dirge]

bro what

[limpid summit]

No the Weaver’s Den weaver

[ancient sinew]

What’s the point of asking this question

[stray fog]

My guess is that she died

Because gms didn't capture her as far as we know

[ancient sinew]

How are we even supposed to answer this

[limpid summit]

Ok gimmighoul fan

[sinful nimbus]

I'll answer it dw

[ancient sinew]

No genuinely

[stray fog]

If its unanswerable, its not like it will hurt to ask it

[limpid summit]

Thank you star

[ancient sinew]

The Weaver’s Den Weaver does nothing in HK it’s just there

[limpid summit]

Well it runs away

[ancient sinew]

What possible role could it serve

[sinful nimbus]

Keeping in like with the themes of the oppressed becoming the oppressors I think the Adult Weaver would encourage you to get the Weaver Queen ending

[limpid summit]

And looks at you

[heavy gyro]

It's the same person talking to themselves btw

[stray fog]

Sorry for discussing lore in the lore channel bro 🙏

[cedar skiff]

lets talk about how in a lot of folklore and mythology the sun and moon are lovers and what that implies for radiance and gms instead

[sinful nimbus]

It could hang out in Weavenest Atla or something before the Snare Setter

[ancient sinew]

What the fuck are you talking about

[limpid summit]

You really think I’m that guy

[past cypress]

GMS isn't da moon tho

[cedar skiff]

i mean

pretty damn close symbolism

[heavy gyro]

Yeah its obvious

[limpid summit]

This might be interesting considering GMS was all this Weaver would have known

No Weaver rule, no hint of Conductors

That would be her only option

[ancient sinew]

… no

She did know something else… freedom