sk-lore

[stray fog]

And the first sinner wears clothes as well

[frosty gate]

They are put to sleep by different means

[frosty gate]

But the Mask works as a seal to not let anyone hurt them

[pale narwhal]

just because they werent born with them doesnt mean they were made just for the dream

after all monomon amd luriem have all their stuff stamped with their masks like it was their personal logos

[lean temple]

They are enchanted with seals (or runes maybe)

[stray fog]

This might be a rune

[frosty gate]

If Quirrel didn't give us the mask, there's a chance we couldn't have reached Monomon

[stray fog]

Makes sense

[frosty gate]

This ties to this line of the MM

"To change a face; to conceal it fully within another... A powerful protection that is, but one with sad consequence.
The original mind is destroyed, though those of striking will may still retain a sliver of that concealed self."

WHAT THE FUCK ARE MASKS, REALLY

[stray fog]

All in one magic device

[lean temple]

"Will you even remember me, child? Could you?...
...A mother... before the mask... before I lay forever in duty.."

[pale narwhal]

do they though?
you can reach lurien and Herrah's corpses by brute strength alone

and when Hornet becomes a dreamer its her normal face that appears on the black egg

[stray fog]

This also explains why brumm was able to resist the troupe

[frosty gate]

They already have their mask

[stray fog]

A new mask doesn't grant full control to the nightmare heart

[frosty gate]

Makes sense

[frosty gate]

Hornet's face is a mask

[stray fog]

This means that the dreamer masks aren't required for sealing a vessel

Which is weird...

[frosty gate]

Like, from all the info we gather, Masks seem to change the personality of people or even control them to an extent

[frosty gate]

Probably extra protection

WAIT

[lean temple]

The corpse is protected with a seal. Only the dream nail can pierce through it

[frosty gate]

Herrah's face in Red Memory

Doesn't it blur the same way Monomon's does when she has no mask

[narrow horizon]

[stray fog]

When is monomon unmasked? I can't find that on the wiki

[frosty gate]

This is before Quirrel gets here

But no, it's not the same

Although the concept is similar

[lean temple]

Her upper half doesn't show at all

[frosty gate]

Not the same in looks, but I think the same in concept

Unmasked they look different

Although Hornet's thing is because of memory

Then why the fuck does Monomon look like that?????

[honest sun]

bullet proof vest

[frosty gate]

Losing it

[honest sun]

why herrah is blue in hk tho

[pastel timber]

She’s hiding behind a seal that only breaks once quirrel does the thing with the mask right?

[stray fog]

Its the uniform of the dreamers or something

[frosty gate]

Monomon has like 4 fucking sealing Methods

[lean temple]

It's a protection spell thing

[frosty gate]

The seal in the Egg is super complex

[honest sun]

oh right

[stray fog]

Herrah just needs deepnest

[honest sun]

shes the teacher after all she knows many things

[frosty gate]

But the protection is the mask

[honest sun]

why weavers are red

[frosty gate]

You can't access her without her mask being there

[stray fog]

The last weaver in hk also wears red

So the hallownest Weavers all wore red

[honest sun]

so we cant take off herrahs mask while shes slept

[lean temple]

No

[honest sun]

wait whos the last

[frosty gate]

Which, if you think about it, kinda means that masks carries the mind of the person

[stray fog]

There's one weaver who stalks the knight and runs away

The only weaver left in hallownest (that we know of)

[lean temple]

And she's never seen again

[honest sun]

they ran from hallownest or theyre arriving to

[lean temple]

Ran away

Back to Pharloom as if it's doing any better

[honest sun]

theres other weaver like things around there, do they count as weavers too

[frosty gate]

I keep saying they probably didn't know all went to hell

[stray fog]

My theory is that they came to hallownest before the haunting began, so they were expecting the citadel to be fully functional when they returned

[frosty gate]

Or they got capture on their way ther

[honest sun]

so hk its a prequel bc they dont know what happenin in pharloom

[lean temple]

It's unclear since it is said Weavers have trouble reproducing

[frosty gate]

That's not a theory, that's just correct

[honest sun]

i can help i mean thats bad, where does it say so?

[stray fog]

Lmao

[lean temple]

Eva and Hornet talking about it being near impossible or extremely difficult for Weavers to have kids

[stray fog]

I was also about to say that they settled in weavenest absolom when they arrived
That was the theory part

[honest sun]

so thats why herrah wanted a child or

[stray fog]

Probably

[lean temple]

They still went back after being all like run as far away from her silken sight as possible. Kinda stupid ngl

[frosty gate]

Oh yeah, I've heard that, can't say I agree

[stray fog]

The grass is greener on the other side ig

[honest sun]

then how herrah had hornet with pk? 1% probability event of happening or

[lean temple]

Unclear. Maybe him being a god we don't know

[stray fog]

Maybe the wyrm genetics boosted the probability

[frosty gate]

No clue, but it seems that Weavers managed to reproduce somehow

[honest sun]

lets go wyms

[stray fog]

That might be why she wanted a child with the pale king specifically, other than the child being very powerful

[honest sun]

especifically............. yeah............

[honest sun]

or maybe because he was the only option or the best

[frosty gate]

That's my theory, but I dropped it because there's more Weavern spawns around so that's weird

[honest sun]

rather than a simple bug

[frosty gate]

It can't have been with a bunch of Gods

[stray fog]

Yeah she could just have had a crush on him

[honest sun]

she wanted is genes

[frosty gate]

Doubt it

[stray fog]

My theory is that they're artifical life made of silk

It makes sense because weaversong consumes soul to make weaverlings

[lean temple]

Herrah had a child as condition to become a Dreamer, we don't know if she would've tried having one if she didn't have to become a Dreamer.

[honest sun]

she was interesed only in the genetic, apart from that she maybe hated him

tsundere

[frosty gate]

Can't be, because they are actually weavers. Silk beings aren't real weavers

[stray fog]

Retcon
/j (maybe)

Not retcon

But inconsistent

[lean temple]

Herrah seems more like a not caring type

[honest sun]

why then they didnt use weaversong charm

[frosty gate]

At this point anything could be a reton

[honest sun]

peak of single mother

[frosty gate]

Who didn't?

[honest sun]

the weavers

[frosty gate]

They did, it was theirs

[honest sun]

oh right

why herrah didnt just have a lot of childs with pk to save the weavers

[stray fog]

Having hornet was probably still a bit hard

Even if the pale king made it easier

[honest sun]

do many coitus playing with the chances to actually born a child

solved

[stray fog]

🔥

[hushed viper]

wait so the reason we get silk from hitting enemies is cuz the bugs of the citadel injected themselves with it and it spread through generations right

what about the non citadel bugs like wildlife and pilgrims how do they also give silk? I guess the ensnaring silk?

[frosty gate]

Pilgrims have silk in them, but the wildlife could be due to the ensnaring silk

[hushed viper]

how did they get the silk in they. .

[heavy gyro]

Silk can probably appear through consumption of silk contaminated food and water

In other words

Microplastics

[hushed viper]

makes sense

[heavy gyro]

It coincides with that lore tablet talking about how silk is everywhere

[hushed viper]

kinda crazy in the effort of trying to get silk all to themselves it ended up slipping through the cracks and end up everywhere

[hushed viper]

wait which one

[dry bridge]

Hornet can probably also get soul and then convert it into silk when dealing with creatures wholly unaffected by the haunting

[frigid belfry]

i just saw glorkish outside of the discord

feels like a meta dream

[heavy gyro]

"In the air. The water. Everywhere.
Inside their shells. Twisted inside. Guts.
Tightest around heart. Pulsing rhythm.
Sick. Alive. Dead?
Something worse.
Deeper. Must look deeper."

[hushed viper]

So basically microplastics if every drop of oil were to come from a singular eldritch entity

[halcyon merlin]

silksong is an allegory to what will happen if the nature stays polluted

[odd yarrow]

Is it just me but was lost lace easier than beating Seth's scores on flea dodge

[halcyon merlin]

yknow

i think she is actually easier than that

[odd yarrow]

Yeah

I spent 4 hours on that game but couldn't beat seth

[halcyon merlin]

the reason we don't have a path of pain is because beating seth score is already the pain

[odd yarrow]

I beat lost lace 4th try

[halcyon merlin]

damn

[odd yarrow]

But the way to get to nameless town is sorta path of pain silksong

[halcyon merlin]

it's too short!

[odd yarrow]

I guess

What about Mt Fay

[frosty gate]

Intersting mechanics, but not enough difficulty

[halcyon merlin]

yeah

[lone folio]

It's like a white palace but easier

Well easier after my first playthrough

I suffered greatly on my first playthrough

[frosty gate]

Really? I thought it was fun

[lone folio]

I wasn't used to the claw line mechanic yet

And the frostbite thing was very annoying when I kept on falling after a failed jump

[frosty gate]

Well that makes sense, I guess clawline is a bit hard to get used to

Idk, I like platforming games so i got it fast.
The hardest part for me was the frozen lakes

[drifting apex]

Are those tiny white dots supposed to be like eyes?

[limpid summit]

Yeah or something like it

[odd yarrow]

Yeah I thinksso

Could maybe be silk

[safe acorn]

Pharlooms void is largely pure due to the lack of pale king within a 10 mile radius of children so probably not eyes so to say but it could just be like bioluminescence

[drifting apex]

The little dots on the picture on the left isn't exclusive to pharloom though. It's the same void tendrils from the abyss in the first game

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

Black beady eyes

[trail wagon]

probably yeah, but I don't think the void necessarily needs eyes at all

I noticed that the FS calls Pharloom "accursed", while the other Weavers call it "haunted". Does this suggest the FS was imrisoned before the Haunting?

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

The haunting is a result of the Conductor's rule who came after the Weavers

[inner torrent]

Gum fact,shakra is silky

[trail wagon]

It's kinda the result of GMS

[inner torrent]

The haunting is by gms but it was allowed by the conductors

[sinful nimbus]

GMS is the source and the Conductors accidentally allowed her to take control by putting silk in everyone

That said the Weavers acknowledge the kingdom as haunted and they also acknowledge Hornet is half weaver which makes me think they're still somewhat aware

First Sinner wouldn't really be aware of the outside world being in a cell and all

[stray fog]

I thought they just expected some weaver descendant to come kill gms

Any daughter

Of a distant land

[cedar skiff]

i dont think they actually acknowledge hornet

[rough rover]

What if the pale king is from pharloom and saw pharloom's abyss and was inspired to create hallownest's abyss from that experience to contain the void

Or something like that

[frosty gate]

Actually i'd say is a cojoined effort of missmanagement on all parts 🤓 👆

No one did a good job

[frosty gate]

I still don't know if Whiteward was or wasn't a Weavenest

I'm unsure

[frosty gate]

I can't tell if you're serious or not

[rough rover]

Im unserious but also stupid

[frosty gate]

Fair

I feel like Whiteward might get a DLC

Probably not

[twin dragon]

Skarrs presumably weren't silked

nor karak shit thingies

[frosty gate]

Microplastics

And even if its not actually the case, i don't think it's ever stated that GMS can only take over people with Silk

[twin dragon]

That's what im trying to say

the haunted just hooks people

[shell roost]

Can i drop a random lore

In the middle of your conversation

[frosty gate]

No (Yes)

[shell roost]

Okie

Just because the Shade lord/ The Hollow Knights shade appears in the ending of silksong, doesnt mean that half of HKs endings arent cannon. Unless silksong takes place imediantly after/ sometime during the events of HK, that means something could have hsppened in between the events of the 2 games

Holy yap

[twin dragon]

No evidence to think that etv or dnm aren't canon

[shell roost]

Idk

[inner torrent]

That's right, the knight can finish ANY ending with the voidheart

[frosty gate]

Actually, there is evidence used to prove which one is canon and which one isn't, but one has to be canon

[inner torrent]

Although, there is two endings that don't make sense, sealed siblings and hollow knight

[twin dragon]

eh, they specifically made shade lord flash to provoke ambiguity

[inner torrent]

And that's because, well, if the knight is free that automatically disproves those endings

[inner torrent]

Team Cherry literally said none is canon

[twin dragon]

That's like saying "The radiance was once a mortal bug but before the events of the first game"

[frosty gate]

Team Cherry said Herrah was a beast and then changed it for Weaver

[inner torrent]

She can be both

[frosty gate]

They also said that ALL ending are canon

[twin dragon]

Weavers are beasts

[inner torrent]

No

But yes, she can be both

[twin dragon]

They're described as beastly sooo

and vicious

[inner torrent]

There is no mention of herrah as a first gen weaver

For all we know she can be mixed.
And even if not, beast can be just an honorary therm

[twin dragon]

hornet is described as half weaver

😭

[frosty gate]

Hornet's commandment specifically states "Weaver in Half part"

[inner torrent]

Irrelevant tho

[opaque jetty]

it depends who is talking cause from say elder bugs perspective for example sure they might be beasts, but to one another they might be handsome

[inner torrent]

Genetics aren't particullarly good in the game

[twin dragon]

Beasts aren't a species of bug

soo

[frosty gate]

Huh????????

[twin dragon]

no, it IS

relevant

lmfao

[inner torrent]

I like to think herrah was somewhat of a "Weaver leader, and when she got to Hallownest she married deepnest king to unify the clans

[twin dragon]

dismissing a piece of evidence by calling it irrelevant is a new low

ngl

[inner torrent]

That's why she is a beats, it's more of an honorary therm

[twin dragon]

oh yeah the infection happened because of elder bug

the radiance is irrelevant

[inner torrent]

I'm just saying herrah can be mixed and hornet can be not at the same time

[opaque jetty]

xd

[inner torrent]

She is a weird bug I wouldn't be surprised if her genetics didn't make sense at all

[twin dragon]

herrah can't be mixed if hornet's HALF weaver

deadass

Weavers as a whole are a mess

their genes got messed up by silk

[frosty gate]

Dude, WHAT

[inner torrent]

Body horror

[inner torrent]

Idk, wyrm genes making stuff or something

Tbh the existence of mixed weavers don't make sense at all to me

[frosty gate]

She would be more Wyrm than Weaver in that case

She's explicitly Weaver in half part

[inner torrent]

How does that even work if they supposedly have bad procreability?

[twin dragon]

I mean appereance wise she is

"wyrm"

ish

[inner torrent]

True

[twin dragon]

since that isn't PK's real form even

[twin dragon]

They kinda just try

even if it sucks to try

they have to

[inner torrent]

It doesn't suck to try

[frosty gate]

We've been trying to figure it out since the game came out

[inner torrent]

Well, a part sucks and the other part doesn't

[inner torrent]

Maybe they learned how to get other bugs pregnant

Maybe that's how hornet born...

[twin dragon]

They can breed

it's just hard

lmfao

[inner torrent]

Pale king wyrmpreg canon

[frosty gate]

I'm not getting into this topic because it's not relevant and I don't wanna fight this one again, but even then, nothing changes that Hornet is half weaver

Which means Herrah is Full

[inner torrent]

Then the most probably is that herrah's title as beast is honorary

Her husband is most likely confirmed to not be a weaver

[twin dragon]

Im not saying she isn't

[inner torrent]

Starting from the prominent lack of male weavers for what we've seen

[twin dragon]

they're all female

presumably

they refer eachother as sisters

and are gms's daughters

[frosty gate]

There's none

[inner torrent]

Herrah actually probably had a hard time, considering she is a foreign queen

[frosty gate]

Of course he isn't, it's stated in Hk

[inner torrent]

It was probably hard to get the acceptance of deepnest

[inner torrent]

I'm pretty sure there is almost no info about his husband

[twin dragon]

spider-like mfs with soul powers

oh yeah it's so hard

all you can be challenged with are a bunch of lil spider fuckers

since the rest of deepnest we see could be weaver descendants

[frosty gate]

There is enough to know he isn't Weaver

[inner torrent]

Do you think weavers could reproduce with white lady?

[twin dragon]

😭

[inner torrent]

That would explain the little weavers

[frosty gate]

It is now, it was just a retcon

[inner torrent]

Yep

Wyem gens are really powerful

That short king genes turned hornet into a short princess

[frosty gate]

Herrah was never hinted or described to be a Weaver before

[inner torrent]

My theory before silksong released was that wyrm soul affinity+herrah's web production resulted in a weaver

Well, a pseudo-weaver, similar enough to learn from them

And then silksong released and she was called weaver

[honest sun]

micro silk

[young dune]

how does bell beast have a silk heart

[past cypress]

Presumably the silk heart is what trapped it in silk

It just found it somewhere somehow

[barren beacon]

So what did WL mean with her whole speech about the Everbloom

I thought Ze'mer brought them to Hallownest, so how come she knew the Everbloom already

[frosty gate]

Ze'mer was a member of the Pale Court

I don't think it's too weird to think she just gave them to her Queen and King as a gift

The Wyrm is also like

Older than most thing

So he probably knew about it and told WL

[narrow horizon]

Pale Court mentioned???! Unbreakable strength + Mark of Purity + FotF + Unbreakable Heart + Abyssal Bloom at 1 mask 🗣🔥

[lilac hedge]

Brocachinator weavers are all women

[narrow horizon]

that doesn't really mean anything lol

[lilac hedge]

I mean how does hk biology work w women and women cuz maybe i missed it

[narrow horizon]

Quite a few different insects are capable of reproduction without males so it wouldn't be impossible

[lilac hedge]

Maybe they do the process called parthenogenesis of asexual reproductioj who knows

[narrow horizon]

we don't really know with weavers, we just know there aren't any male ones, reproduction is difficult, and that the only time we actually know who the father was in the birth of a weaver was with hornet and pk

other than that we just know weavers are kinda... there

[lilac hedge]

i mean they are pharlids

and we dont know where pharlids come from

but theres big pharlids

so it could mean that some of them lay eggs or something? i mean thats how spiders are born?

[narrow horizon]

i doubt it, asexual reproduction almost exclusively leads to cloning of the parent cell, meaning all weaver children would be identical to the parent. also, if reproduction is difficult for weavers, it'd be weird if their method is completely one sided, and that Herrah needed the pk to bear a child.

[lilac hedge]

so you still think they can reproduce w w lady

[narrow horizon]

i have no idea if they can lol

they MIGHT be able to

we just don't know enough

[inner torrent]

And white lady a plant

[frosty gate]

There are more Weaverspawns, we just don't know how

[narrow horizon]

yea

[frosty gate]

Well time to advance on my timeline

This time for real

Gonna focus on how the fuck did Weavers do things

The rest of Pharloom will be dealt with later

[tender forge]

well, i hope i'm not intruding, but I noticed something: the claw maidens (the silk stealing robots) look alot like herrah in the red memory.

[frosty gate]

I mean

Vaguely

[terse warren]

If anything they have the silhouette of GMS

[frosty gate]

N-No???

[terse warren]

Spiky up top

Makes a triangle

[frosty gate]

I want to see what you're seeing

I have a theory that the first conductor(s) came from the Surface

From Nameless Town specifically

[terse warren]

Gold spiky legs

Same come shape (with the hair)

The hair being kinda a cover for the rest of the body

Spiky top

[frosty gate]

I really wish I could see it

[terse warren]

Damn

[tender forge]

I mean, if gms' hair wasn't so damn floaty maybe i'd see it more

[frosty gate]

Another wall in my timeline, I don't really get when did the Pilgrimage start

There's not much info on the Weavers luring people into the City

The brought the people from the Surface down, yes

And the Sentinels, made by the First Architect, brought bugs from many places to come into the Citadel

And the Threefold Melody is still a mystery

[inner torrent]

Focus??? Like the hollow knight???

[inner torrent]

Imo it was during the weavers reign

[dire sinew]

what is greytoot supposed to represent? what is the meaning of the parasited ending

[frosty gate]

I mean yes it had to, but there's 0 info on how the Weavers themselves got people to come to The Citadel

Unless the Nameless Town was bigger than I think

And there was like a shit ton of people

Actually that could make sense

These dudes have been dead for a while

This would also explain why Maestros, Ministers and Reeds don't look like Pilgrims

[floral venture]

Might be dlc stuff

[frosty gate]

Clappers and Memoria too

[floral venture]

They created a false religion and must have preached it somehow, with the Citadel being the centre of it. With a few people drawn it, it would make sense that it could grow exponentially in popularity if it was popular (and we know it was, look at the Citadel). Also, the Weavers being creations of a Pale being might help their ability to bring people together under a sort of kingdom

That's my take

[inner torrent]

Ok I'm not using witch snymore

[frosty gate]

I mean surely but there's so little info on them actually doing the preaching

Maybe they brought the people of the Town down and then those ones brought other people from caverns?

[floral venture]

Possibly. They only had to gather a few people to kick things off, since those people would undoubtedly do most of the work from then on

So I don't think it would've been that difficult

[frosty gate]

That's true, that also plays into my Conductors come from above Theory

[inner torrent]

Craw father MOWED by reaper crest

Craw memento recollected

Oh, wrong channel

[floral venture]

👍

[frosty gate]

Yeah I was about to say

I'm gonna take a big assumption, Conductors were appointed before pilgrimage began

[floral venture]

Why would they have been?

[frosty gate]

Well they know the Secret so they had to be the first to be appointed and their job was to care for the Choir, not to preach.
The preachers probably came second, which are the Vaultkeepers. Thanks to that preach they probably got people into the Citadel

The gymnastics I have to go through to make a cohesive line of events

[lone folio]

Actually I wonder if Nameless town is the town that pilgrims originate from

Seems like there has been atleast one other person to point this out so I feel like there's a connection

[frosty gate]

Wdym with Originate, like they come from there or like the first people of Pharloom come from there?

[lone folio]

Like where they were originally before being lured down by gms

[frosty gate]

They weren't lured down by GMS

They were lured by Weavers

[lone folio]

I mean that's what dead guy says

Oh nevermind

Dead guy does talk about Weavers

[frosty gate]

"The weaving ones beckon...
Sweet promises whispered...
From depths below...
Friends seduced...
Now only the wind..."

[lone folio]

I don't think I ever got to see that dialogue in game

I either got unlucky or just didn't care that much about what some dead guy has to say

[lone folio]

"Sweet promises whispered" does sound like what the citadel is seen as by the pilgrims

[frosty gate]

I mean, the Weavers probably promised them a grand life

[sleek lily]

Does anyone have a picture to see what bug the Fleas are cooking in their festival if you skip Moorwing?

[lone folio]

Honestly it seems very likely

[frosty gate]

Which is why i think they're conductors

[lone folio]

Not sure why most of them are now trying to climb back upp

[lone folio]

Conducters are pilgrims?

[lone folio]

Guess they like got lost while trying to find the citadel since it was just a bunch of rocks

[frosty gate]

No, I mean the people from up top, Town people aren't really pilgrims

Pilgrims come from below

[lone folio]

Is there an npc that discusses their origins at all?

Like pilgrim origins?

[lilac hedge]

Someone in bone bottom

Ion remember

[lone folio]

Maid?

[lilac hedge]

Maybe

Maybe it was pilbyu

Maybe

Idk

[lone folio]

I'm gonna go check in a bit

[lone folio]

But like the Nameless folk are just one to one pilgrims

Just without their signature and stylish garbs

[inner torrent]

I sometimes think if conductors are actually real

[frosty gate]

They don't look alike at all. Look at the corpses in the Pic I sent

[lone folio]

Yeah those look like pilgrims

They just have different horns that's all but we get to see the same horns on other pilgrim enemies

Guy on the very left has the same horns as the pilgrim hulk

[frosty gate]

I'm low on battery but let me get to my house and recheck Pilgrim pictures

Even if that is the case, it doesn't really matter

Pilgrims are descendants of Citadel folk

[lone folio]

Not that much but i find it pretty neat

[frosty gate]

Buncha inbreds too probably

[lone folio]

Uhhhh

Maybe

Though this does only apply to some pilgrims

Unless thr Nameless town also had the worm folk and the guys with a proboscis

okay looking at pilgrims without their shawls the only one that fits the nameless dudes is the hulk

and the bell thrower also has the same body as one of them

but that one has the horns of the hulk

but the flying one has the floppy antenna

this is very odd

[compact sage]

what do you think a hollow knight 3 could be about?
I’m not sick of silksong just yet but I can’t help but imagine 💀

[inner torrent]

If steel city doesn't get a dlc, probably steel city kingdom

[lone folio]

oh whats double wierd is how one of the choir bugs has a body design similar to the Groveller

[muted lantern]

It will likely be a separate story in the same world, since the devs have stated they want future games to stand alongside hk and silksong and be able to be played in any order.

[lone folio]

what the hell is going on with the pilgrims

[muted lantern]

but they have not confirmed a sequel.

[muted lantern]

I think theres just a few variations for shell patterns by common bugs.

[lone folio]

maybe

maybe the pilgrims have a large variaty of body patterns for some reason

[compact sage]

they DID deliberately choose to say ||“To Be Continued” at the end of the Mr. Mushroom ending||

[timber pond]

I mean, it would make sense that they would be about the Three primary siblings thematicaly

[muted lantern]

Considering mr mushrooms meta stuff and referencing other games, it may just be saying mr mushroom will appear in future tc games

[blissful harbor]

i have a strong feeling mr mushroom will appear in any TC game
not just HK

[timber pond]

I feel like they will make it a trilogy though and then move on

[compact sage]

hopefully

[small gate]

A countdown to a new entry will probably only start like a year after all the dlc for silksong is released

[compact sage]

because I got every achievement in SK within the first week 😭

[small gate]

So give it another 10 years for anothwr game

Give or take

[inner torrent]

Wait... What if the next protagonist is Mr mushroom

Or a fungus

[timber pond]

He won't ever be one because his perspective is always "in the now"

[small gate]

Anything bipedal would do

[timber pond]

That dosent really drive a plot

[small gate]

I doubt a game around the hollow knight would work, but i really cant think of an alternative

[compact sage]

I would hate that 💀

I’d like a prequel

maybe how Hallownest fell
idk

[small gate]

Imagine if this time around its not a pale being

And just some random fuckin root

[timber pond]

Why tho

THK finding his place in the world after he's been used up sounds awesome

[floral venture]

How Quirrel started out could be good, we don't know a whole lot about Monomon either

[timber pond]

Also fits with the consistency set by silksong

[lone folio]

going back to hallownest seeems boring

[small gate]

It would, im just thinking of the scope

THK is huge

And i doubt theyd cop out and just size up every other bug

[timber pond]

Then it would be tall or deep chasams for rooms. Instead of cramped hallways in HK and long ones in silksong

[small gate]

For every room?

[timber pond]

It would be interesting

[small gate]

I dont see how to do that without feeling like youre walking on nothing

[inner torrent]

What if the next protag is a pale being but it was infected by a cordyceps fungud

[timber pond]

Climbing walls

[inner torrent]

And that connect us to Mr mushroom

[timber pond]

Idk guys , I dont think they are going to focus on a character that isn't relevant to vessels and stuff.

[inner torrent]

I actually don't think we will retake anythink surrounding the vessels

[timber pond]

Because the meat and potatoes is in thier physicality

And origins

[inner torrent]

The vessel and pk theme is already over

[timber pond]

Not really. Its reflected in silksongs chracters

[floral venture]

If we follow the first game's pattern, Lace is the main candidate for another game lol

[small gate]

Theyre very over

Hornets thing is about origin and her place in a world that existed before her

The vessels were just a part of it

[timber pond]

Lace is a reflection of them, second sentient is a reflection of hornet. Ect

[inner torrent]

The problem is lace would be way too repetitive

[floral venture]

Ik ik

[small gate]

Yeah i really dont wanna play lace

[timber pond]

That main reflection will persist in "Hollow Knight"

[small gate]

In all honesty

[floral venture]

I think Quirrel could be cool, personally

[timber pond]

The chracter must come to terms with a hollowness in some sense

[small gate]

If we get a main character thats recurring from the series, we probably havent met it yet

[timber pond]

And there must be a foil

[inner torrent]

Nah I don't think so

The only hallownest character I think we could get is the hollow knight

[floral venture]

It could always be an entirely new character too, in a whole other place

[small gate]

Yeah thats not really the point

[floral venture]

We're all forgetting Zote 😔

[floral venture]

Hornet barely meets this requirement

[timber pond]

Pharloom is about hornet coming to terms with her indefrent stance. And correcting what she could not do in the past

[inner torrent]

Zote, funny enough have the most probability

As he was planned as the third playable character

[timber pond]

It can be an emotional story about what it means

[small gate]

Hollowness is a cool thing and part of the theming, but HK is a lot more about roots and the places you occupy than it is about the not-being and not-belongingness

[floral venture]

But that's nothing about being hollow?

[small gate]

Thats not it at all

[timber pond]

It is about that struggle.

[visual glacier]

William said they like keeping his background mysterious so idk

[floral venture]

😭

[small gate]

Shes never indifferent about anything in the game other than some npcs living or dying

And shes not indifferent to pharloom or hallownest

Like, ever

[floral venture]

But still not able hollowness

Struggle, fine

[timber pond]

She is indefrent to pharloom much throughout act 1, and only comes to see its value somewhere through act 2 really.

[floral venture]

Uh, no?

[small gate]

But shes not

[floral venture]

Why does she do anything in Pharloom then, lol

[small gate]

She specifically chooses to see what pharlooms all about instead of leaving right away

[timber pond]

She actively says she only does things for the reward to flick in the beginning

[floral venture]

Her wanting to help Fleas is a big giveaway that that isn't true

[small gate]

Thats for characters wishes

Shes not santa claus, doing things for the rewards like, fine

Pharloom is another thing entirely

[timber pond]

She only wants to answer the question of why they brought her here. Not exactly an intrest in the pepole themselves until it becomes intertwined with her goal.

[visual glacier]

She saves haunted bellhart with no guarantee of reward

[lone folio]

They are fluffy. Also Hornet is shown to only do something when there's a reward like with the ladybug pin throwing competition when she only does it for a reward

[small gate]

Well, yes, but thats before she understands the nature of the haunting

Thats still not being indifferent, its the difference between being mugged in the street and going after them only to realize the people are fucking zombies

[lone folio]

And in Act 3 she helps the kingdom because it's her fault that it's collapsing

[floral venture]

I'll have to find the exact quote but I'm fairly sure that she says she enjoys finding fleas

[timber pond]

Yes that's what Im saying. She dosent care and devlopes care throughout the game due to the nature of the situation.

[small gate]

And going "well. This cant be good. Can i do something about it?"

[lone folio]

Oh she defently does

[timber pond]

A fight against a hollow indefrence that other chracters in the series want to solve thier problems instead

[floral venture]

But she could absolutely leave at that point, she evidently cares if she stays

[small gate]

I understand what youre saying but "throughout the game" is a bit disingenuous when she says as much at the first time she meets lace

Like by the time she says shes interested, we, the players, are already very interested

And trying to puzzle it together

[lone folio]

She grows to care yes but through act 3 she repeatedly says that she needs to fix the mess she created

[small gate]

Its not a big reveal its par for the course

[timber pond]

It is gradual for diffrent specefic things. She only cares about the sense of community, a good deal into helping bellheart im pretty sure.

[floral venture]

Which she says out of care for Pharloom, at that point. She says that she doesn't want another Hallownest to happen

[lone folio]

Which would be a sign of caring..

[mild adder]

Hornet actually knows she is a playable character and is just gaslighting the player

[lone folio]

Huh she really does care

[small gate]

Thats my ppppoint

[floral venture]

This is slightly off topic, but I really enjoy Hornet being able to speak

[visual glacier]

Gives her so much personality

Also all the “sir” and “madam” really help us not rely on team cherry tweets for gender or something

[floral venture]

It really does, and her dialogue is great too

[silk dirge]

true i was really curious about the gender of the fearful pilgrim until hornet called her madam

[floral venture]

I'm partway through Act 3 rn (one heart obtained) and this by itself has been goty worthy imo, and easily my favourite part of any game

[visual glacier]

I mean people like Zote and elderbug, who were only given a gender in the fucking manual

Actually Zote had the whole price thing nvm

[visual glacier]

Prince

[silk dirge]

dont say you like act 3 in this channel or you will die 😭

[mild adder]

Tbh you can tell what zote and elder bug are by their voice

Also shape

[floral venture]

Hornet talking to the ghost or whatever of Lace was neat

[visual glacier]

That’s not concrete

[floral venture]

Lol idc what people say

[mild adder]

Act 3 is good

[small gate]

I MUST know the pronouns of the bug people or i will DIE

[visual glacier]

I’m a wiki editor and I’m genuinely ashamed that we had the voice actor as a source for little fool’s gender for a while

[silk dirge]

"hunters prowl the long grass" in this channel being starpengu and the gang

theyre cool and they do have good points but they cant stop me from liking act 3

[timber pond]

Act 3 is good but I wish every heart was verdania instead

[visual glacier]

Starpengu and “good points” In the same universe

[floral venture]

Act 3 is tough, don't get me wrong. Very tough. But the lore is brilliant imo

[mild adder]

I just assume whatever I want depending on the voice and shape and even then majority of the time I don’t care

[silk dirge]

https://tenor.com/view/ss-sk-skong-silk-song-gif-6069929492524291916

[timber pond]

To be fair, form does matter in this universe to define your mind as indicated by masks so that's not entirely incorrect.

[mild adder]

Tbh I wouldt even say it’s that much harder with all the tools you have at your disposal, people are just supremely adept at not using them

[timber pond]

https://youtu.be/89bJWBmInBQ?si=4dgZFmclLn5G8DKF good video for anyone interested

[floral venture]

For real, the majority of people complaining about difficulty are not making use of the pressure op tools we have at our disposal

So all in all, goty candidate is well deserved

[timber pond]

Its because most of silksongs upgrades are skill based and active. So its not as accessible for everyone

[mild adder]

And it’s not just tools it’s all the movement and attack options like claw line and different crests etc

[compact sage]

I mean I’d enjoy seeing it all at its peak

[mild adder]

Practice is available to everyone

[floral venture]

The entire combat system is skill based

[timber pond]

I know, im just saying that's why pepole don't like it.

[floral venture]

You just have to practice lol

Like with any game

[mild adder]

“I don’t like when I need to learn how to play the game”

[timber pond]

Well in hollowknight, alot of charms you don't have to do anything to get a benifit

[mild adder]

Why do these people play video games again lol

[timber pond]

So that's the main diffeence

[mild adder]

I went from HK straight to silksong, and honestly the entire game is just iterative upgrade on pretty much everything hollow knight did imo

[timber pond]

Silksong requires more brainpower

[floral venture]

That's fair. Silksong is a sequel though, and we did expect it to be more difficult. I still think that, with practice, anyone can get used to tools

[floral venture]

Yep

[timber pond]

Yeah I know

But the pepole on the hype bandwagon didn't lol

[floral venture]

Yeah

Can't please everyone

[mild adder]

This is why you don’t listen to the lowest common denominator

[timber pond]

It would be Cool if a THK game had a sorta middle ground based on his history. Diffrent armors and diffrent mechanisms for a prosthetic arm sounds fire

[mild adder]

It’s the Fromsoft cycle
Fromsoft releases a game, normies cry it’s too hard, get filtered, game is generally agreed to be good and gets more popular which attracts more normies, rinse and repeat

[mild adder]

I have hard time imagining playing as lanky bro, like what would he even do lmao

If he survived dude is kinda lost without much direction

[muted lantern]

god I hate the term normies

[charred nimbus]

specially considering that people who use it for games are snowflakes who wants to feel special in somethin in their life and don't want for the one thing they actually like to be enjoyed by people

[muted lantern]

I... also hate the term snowflakes...

lol

[charred nimbus]

LMAO

Fair

[muted lantern]

But yeah I agree the term normie is super gatekeepy

[charred nimbus]

People just think they need a small buble on their life

that's why soulslike enjoyers are so damn annoying

they don't want for their bubble to blow up

😛

[muted lantern]

Soulslikes are great, but sadly the fandom has a lot of issues with elitism.

[solemn hinge]

Istg it’s literally every day with this shit

[charred nimbus]

If it was twitter they could've got a death threat for calling Phantom a she

[solemn hinge]

Honestly I think theorizing or headcanoning that Phantom is they/them is fine but people gotta accept that it being she/her is kinda more likely

[charred nimbus]

Oh, i have no problem with people theorizing on Phantom being a they/them, i'm just gonna call out that there is alot of people literally insulting people and forcing this on other people

Just because they don't follow them

It's weird

[solemn hinge]

It’s just so baffling that people can be met with such overwhelming evidence and go “…nuh uh…”

[visual glacier]

Is said “overwhelming evidence” just a thread memory where it’s ambiguous who’s talking?

[solemn hinge]

Okay I was actually talking about Lace age there

[visual glacier]

Oh

[solemn hinge]

Phantom is pretty iffy I won’t lie, I don’t blame ppl for thinking they’re they/them

[visual glacier]

There’s a line that’s a pretty decent arguement against child lace but I’ll admit it’s iffy

"Life? You're too generous! This weak, wasting existence. This was not life, just a husk shaped to act as a child."

[frigid belfry]

i watched that one it was very enjoyable

[muted lantern]

the thing with the lace age argument, is that people can try to find other interpertations for some points within the game, however when looking at the whole picture of each differing piece of evidence of her being a kid it takes a lot of mental gymnastics in entirely different directions to explain away every single line.

[timber pond]

Phantom is in a tube. It would make sense that its to delay her decay. Idk i just don't think it makes sense for phantom to talk through the tube.

Plus the actual memory thread starts moreso from where lace is standing

[timber pond]

I think alot of pepole wouldn't like it because it implies that mental state is influenced by physical. But I find that what is compelling about these games

[solemn hinge]

Eva does actively talk from a tube, but I do agree

[timber pond]

Context that's diffrent really.

Eva has some kind of Tech sustaining her and allowing that likely

Exauhst organ? Probably not lol.

[solemn hinge]

I suppose…?

[timber pond]

It also just makes sense that its Lace talking because what is said lines up with her thoughts throughout the game

We know almost nothing about phantom other than she wants hornet to best her

[muted lantern]

I'm fond of they/them phantom, and it's not impossible, as there are they/them users who are comfortable being called sister, but I think it's likely lace calling phantom sister not vice versa.

I don't think it's confirmed tho, especially with hunters journal using they/them for many characters that are gendered otherwise.

Mistakenly said don't think it's likely

[timber pond]

Well yes, this game uses they them like it was used in prior English diction between 16th-19th

[muted lantern]

When I meant the opposite

[solemn hinge]

I mean, it’s still used that way

[timber pond]

I know but its definition changed to wider features

Like every dang thing in the 21st century that confuses my old man soul

[visual glacier]

Idk why it’s so hard to accept that phantom’s gender is ambiguous and in lore discussions we should only use they/them because that’s the only way they are canonically referred too

[solemn hinge]

I can agree with that, but there are also ppl who are WAY too stuck up about it

[ornate pier]

Though I do agree they/them is the safest option, I don't think there are any "corrections" to be made if something is unconfirmed

[visual glacier]

While in this situation I sort of agree, that logic is actually horrible for lore discussion

[ornate pier]

Yeah in terms of lore I suppose so

[frigid belfry]

it is though, sly outright implies this, and basic reasoning confirms this, bugs that are physically stronger retain more of their mental state, or are unaffected by psychological attacks

why would people disagree?

[visual glacier]

I mean bretta was in the same situation as sly

[ornate pier]

They did specifically remove her infection eyes later though didn't they

But not the cloud

Which is weird

[floral venture]

I do wonder how Bretta survived, considering how weak her mind seems to be

[frigid belfry]

elderbug says she wasnt down there for too long, unlike the rest of the bugs

[ornate pier]

Ah

[frigid belfry]

the infection took time (as we see with myla) to take over a bugs mind fully

if one were to retreat to an area free of it before being overtaken they should theoretically be fine

[visual glacier]

Also emilta never got infected, maybe that’s just because she doesn’t dream though

[craggy smelt]

everyone she hates is dead or a zombie, she has everything she could ever want

[sinful nimbus]

i open the channel and this message is front and center 🥀

[silk dirge]

LMAO

anyways that dialog is really funny sherma thinks he skarrsinger karmelita 😭

[muted lantern]

I largely agree, tho I understand why the sister line can make people have different views on it

[inner torrent]

Hello

[dire lynx]

hello

[inner torrent]

The end of silksong is almost depressing

The weavers are now almost extinct

And altought hornet Weaver them free, there is basically no member of them to enjoy that freedom

[visual glacier]

Hornet might not be the last weaver in part

[sinful nimbus]

But its literally impossible to refer to a woman with she/her pronouns as they/them

Clearly the gender is ambiguous

[craggy smelt]

nah, Weavers are like vessels now
there could be any number of them all over the place

[inner torrent]

Good point

[craggy smelt]

all weaver OCs are canon

[inner torrent]

Lol

I have one

[craggy smelt]

right on

[sinful nimbus]

1/4th weaver with diminished silk thats impractical in direct combat but can be used to create a giant silk mecha

TC please hire me

[craggy smelt]

3rd game protag - the Weaver from Steel City

took down all those reeds

[inner torrent]

A son of Deepnest which is more Beast than Weaver, although he carries a Needle his posture is more of a Beast than that of a Hunter.

[frigid belfry]

is that weaver we saw in deepnest still alive

we still have zero idea how much time passed between hk and hks but realistically they wouldnt have died

[craggy smelt]

no idea

we don't know when the bulk of the Weavers left Deepnest to return to Pharloom, or what happened to them

but this one seems to have stayed behind instead of going with them - who knows what reason

[silk dirge]

what if the deepnest weaver is cindril

honestly would make sense

the weavenest is named after her so she was probably the first one to say "we need to run the fuck away" meaning she would also probably be very hesitant to return

[craggy smelt]

they need to add a weavenest somewhere, like a DLC area, somewhere really hard to find

then you open it and go in and it says 'Weavenest Herrah'

and you're like 'whooooaaa.....'

'fuuuuuuck....'

[lean temple]

Star had that idea for Weavers' Den

Doing some DLC to mesh the two games together would be nice but I heavily doubt HK will get new stuff after all this time.

[craggy smelt]

then it's a dumb idea and I hate it

[lean temple]

Amazing

[craggy smelt]

no, what they should do it update Herrah's appearance in HK to match Silksong

'there was never any retcon, whatever, fuck you'

[sinful nimbus]

But that would throw out my theory that she's a Nosk

Hence Hornet's malleable nature

[lean temple]

"You saw nothing"

[craggy smelt]

I think that's from her dad's side

[lean temple]

Yea

Wyrms are known shapeshifters

[craggy smelt]

my headcanon is that Herrah thought becoming a Dreamer was like going into hibernation
so she gorged herself and got really fat, like a bear

[lean temple]

It's not that she's just fat, her morphology is very different

Drapemite Weaver theory is better imo

[craggy smelt]

that's just what happens when weavers get fat

[lean temple]

Their leg structure changes and they grow an extra pair of limbs

[ornate pier]

I assume cindril is the one in deep docks cuz swift step

[sinful nimbus]

Weavenest Cindril's entire schtick was leaving Pharloom so that seems unlikely

[ornate pier]

I mean, she could've just been guiding the others

[craggy smelt]

she was inventing shoes to leave faster

running was her thing

[sinful nimbus]

Why would she stay

[ornate pier]

The same reason all the other mfs stayed I guess

[craggy smelt]

she was gonna use the shoes to catch up

[sinful nimbus]

They planned to deal with GMS in different ways

[ornate pier]

To give hornet strength or whatever
Actually why were weaver spires built

It's not like weavers have some foresight

[sinful nimbus]

Cindril was part of the "Run from the kingdom" group not the "Shoot GMS" group or "Trap GMS" group

[halcyon merlin]

foresight like that item that lets you see completion ong

[ornate pier]

Oh fuck farsight

[uneven trench]

fr fr

[sinful nimbus]

They were hoping someone would come to kill GMS for good so the eternal song would stop being necessary, according to the Rune Harp Ballador holds

[ornate pier]

Actually good point

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet in particular wasn't planned for idk where that idea comes from

[ornate pier]

Idk I feel like swift step and weavenest cindril are too linked for it too js be a coincidence

[ornate pier]

Is the message that shows up like a psychic thing

[sinful nimbus]

Its just addressed to a half spawn of a distant land which like no duh

The "one of silken strength" they hoped to come would have to be a half weaver from outside the kingdom, they wouldn't need foresight for that

[silk dirge]

i feel like its definitely some telepathy shit considering first sinner

[ornate pier]

Yeah now that I think of it it's not hornet specific at all

[silk dirge]

daughter of a distant land i could see

half spawn of a distant land sounds directed

almost like an insult tbh

[ornate pier]

We already know there were a bunch of other hybrid weaver descendants

[silk dirge]

yeah but they were like 1/4 or 1/8

idk first sinner seems especially directed at hornet

the other ones are generic

[solemn hinge]

Cool? Good points? Star?

Blasphemous

[silk dirge]

i know im not a sinner im the entire road

[lean temple]

Stealing that

[inner torrent]

Imo, GMS has the upper hand if radiance ever tried to overtake pharloom

[silk dirge]

stealing something that was already stolen damn

[muted lantern]

Its like robbing the British museum

[silk dirge]

LMAO

[solemn hinge]

Ehhhh

I mean I get it but idk if GMS has the means to access Rad

[muted lantern]

Is the memorium basically the British museum in the form of a zoo?

[solemn hinge]

It’s a preservation spot

[silk dirge]

tbh now that i think about it sinners road probably means that everyone there is a sinner bc they ran away from their citadel assigned duties in greymoor

[inner torrent]

I don't think she needs it

[muted lantern]

Preserving wildlife from all the nations they wiped out

[silk dirge]

the whole alternate route to the citadel thing seems wrong to me

[solemn hinge]

What

[inner torrent]

Gms has something radiance doesn't, and that's a lack of need on bugs

[silk dirge]

i highly doubt phantom was just letting random ass pilgrims get into the citadel

[solemn hinge]

Okay yes but can GMS access Radiance to kill her

[muted lantern]

I think it's called that because it's a prison, or at least used to be. The roach keepers seem to be helping to feed all of greymoor so I think they are simply aligned with the moors

[inner torrent]

Gms doesn't need bugs that believe in her to exist, and we know she lacks much importance to them, she can just direct a massive suicide in deep docks and no more bugs to remember radiance

[muted lantern]

Are we powescaling higher beings again?

[silk dirge]

the cages are for muckroaches

[inner torrent]

I don't think gms is stronger than radiance

[silk dirge]

its a muckroach farm

not a prison

[solemn hinge]

HOLY WRONG

[muted lantern]

They also use it for people, like green prince

[inner torrent]

But gms is in her Realm, it's obvious to me she would won

[solemn hinge]

Rad does NOT need bugs to remember her to stay alive

[silk dirge]

green prince is the only non muckroach we see caged

[solemn hinge]

She would just prefer to be remembered because it is in her nature

[silk dirge]

its possible he caged himself and gave the key to a roachkeeper

[muted lantern]

But I don't think sinners road is opposed to the citadel, they feed the greymoor.

[inner torrent]

I mean, she can survive and resurrect, but she still needs to be remembered to have a dominion over the physical world

[silk dirge]

they are

they ran away from their duties in greymoor

its said somewhere

[muted lantern]

When is that said?

[copper fiber]

could eva be an eternal child like lace

[inner torrent]

After all, the radiance needed her image to be remembered in order to start de infection

[solemn hinge]

I suppose so yeah

Though she will ALWAYS be remembered by whatever Vessel she is inhabiting

[muted lantern]

Maybe, though it's more likely referring to her as a child of weavers, since that's how she refers to herself.

[inner torrent]

That seems to be "Spawn child" like when they call hornet Wyrm child

[silk dirge]

i remember it somewhere im looking rn

[copper fiber]

what makes you think that

[muted lantern]

Because I'm pretty sure sinners road is the food source for the greymoor. They farm roaches because greymoor is no longer a food producing farmland.

Plus sinners road bugs appear in greymoor

[inner torrent]

Because it is talking of her as a child of weavers, making certain emphasis in her origin than In the child itself

[silk dirge]

yeah i think you are right but its mainly a muckroach farm

i just dont buy the "alternate route" theory

[solemn hinge]

It is an alternate route iirc

[silk dirge]

i highly doubt its an intended one

no pilgrim is passing phantom

[muted lantern]

I mean yeah I don't think pilgrims were intended to go through exhaust organ,

Though they seem to have tried to pass through bilewater

[frigid belfry]

no?

[solemn hinge]

I kinda assumed they went thru putrified ducts

[solemn hinge]

Omfg can we stop this misconception

[frigid belfry]

rad is directly described as a dying light when shes forgotten

[solemn hinge]

Radiance just really wants to be remembered because it is in her nature

[copper fiber]

but they just say "child" not "weaver child"

[frigid belfry]

at the very least being forgotten heavily weakens her

[solemn hinge]

Source

Source, please

[inner torrent]

She literally dissapeared?

Like, she didn't go mad, she DISSAPEARED from shallownest for years, for centuries and maybe milleniums

[muted lantern]

You guys want my guess? I think sinners road used to be a prison, but was repurposed to a roach farm around the time greymoor was repurposed for silk recycling.

[solemn hinge]

She was just in the Hollow Knight?

[inner torrent]

No, before that

[solemn hinge]

She was trapped in the Hollow Knight, that’s it

Oh yeah, the Moths that had the only means to access her abandoned her

[inner torrent]

Before the first infection, Radiance dissapeared, she was forgotten, even by her children the moths, and she wasn't able to do nothing.

[solemn hinge]

She was uh

Notably able to do something

Like, the infection

[inner torrent]

The infection, but we know that was provoked when she was remembered

[solemn hinge]

Yeah but she wasn’t weakened

[inner torrent]

There's a reason for radiance's statue to exist

[solemn hinge]

She was just shut out

[inner torrent]

Tbh I don't see the difference, maybe she was still as powerful in her domain, but the important was her power out of her domain

[silk dirge]

i dont think so tbh

green prince was caged by a roachkeeper

[solemn hinge]

The important thing is that she wasn’t weakened or dead

[silk dirge]

i think he probably asked a roachkeeper to cage him

[solemn hinge]

And would not have died if she was fully forgotten

[silk dirge]

it seems like a self imposed imprisonment

[inner torrent]

I think vanishing radiance from pharloom would be a solid victory for Gms

[solemn hinge]

Fair enough

[inner torrent]

But at the end of the day, a fight between two higher beings in similar positions is destined to nothing

Pale King failed for his preoccupation on the kingdom and it's citizens, he would have never dared to take extreme measures and "Cleanse" the kingdom

[solemn hinge]

Yeah he was based for that

[muted lantern]

Gp was more recent imprisonment, I'm more talking about the infrastructure there seemed to be originally intended as a prison.

[inner torrent]

Or the obvious decision which was to leave hallownest, tbh I don't see what was so special about those lands

[silk dirge]

what makes you think so

[solemn hinge]

The thing is, his plan did work for a LOOOOONG time

[silk dirge]

all of the spikes and stuff seem meant for muckroaches

[inner torrent]

Ig you're right in that

[frigid belfry]

“Hold something in your mind and it lives on with you, but forget it and you seal it away forever. That is the only death that matters.” - seer describing how memories work .. .I WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN... and LIGHT CANNOT BE CONSUMED”- radiance dn dialogue (while this isnt super convincing, the tone isnt something that would be if being forgotten was simply a wish or will “but memories of that ancient light still lingered … until all of Hallownest began to dream of that forgotten light.” -seer HEAVILY implies the radiance existed due to the memory of her still existing radiance is a memetic being, moreoever, shes the only hb we see that has no physical form and lives in the dream realm, the same realm described by the seer as consisting of memories

[solemn hinge]

He could have been alr dead when the Infection started leaking

[muted lantern]

I just don't think he'd be alive if he was stuck in there long enough to starve

[solemn hinge]

Oh so this is a metaphorical death

The only “death” that would matter to Radiance would be being forgotten

It’s not a literal death, but it would feel the same for her

[silk dirge]

yeah but he wasnt imprisoned by the citadel there

[inner torrent]

Eeeeh, I feel that's a stretch, radiance is a dream, she IS metaphorical

[solemn hinge]

Okay not true

Radiance is real

Because the Dream realm is a real place

[inner torrent]

She is real, like all essence and memories are

[solemn hinge]

It’s just a different dimension

[inner torrent]

But she is also subjected to way different laws than other characters that depend on the physical world

[solemn hinge]

That is true but what evidence we currently have says that she would not die if forgotten

Especially considering there must have been a point where no one knew her

[inner torrent]

Not much evidence against it to be honest, I think most evidence point into her dying by being forgotten than her surviving it

[solemn hinge]

No

God, can Powdered stop being on hiatus so they can explain this far better than I have

Uhhh @barren beacon are you any good at Radiance lore

[barren beacon]

What

Why am I the next option after Powdered 😭

[solemn hinge]

Just asking

[barren beacon]

What exactly though

[solemn hinge]

If she dies after getting forgotten

I know Powdered says no

[barren beacon]

I mean no, Seer explicitely says they got Locked away

Not died

I suppose you could say "Locked away forever" might as well be death

but we have no proof she would actually die

[solemn hinge]

Yeah it’s like a metaphorical death

[barren beacon]

[tepid mountain]

It’s kinda different than an actual death. Because if she’s ever remembered again, she would be unsealed. Even if she was totally forgotten beforehand.

Which I feel like is the point of the statue.

[barren beacon]

I am so offended you pinged me after Powdered wasn't available lmao 😭

[barren beacon]

Yeah that's why I said you can only apply it to a certain extent

[solemn hinge]

Sorry 😭

Idk I trust you with these things

[barren beacon]

A FUCKING PIKMIN DIED BECAUSE I WAS TYPING HERE

FUCK

Okay ima go now

[inner torrent]

This is kinda what I mean

[solemn hinge]

SHIT

[tepid mountain]

The Radiance claims another victim.

[solemn hinge]

Didn’t know they had Weavers in Pikmin, badass

[drifting apex]

Was it the weaver's idea to extract silk from gms's cocoon and use it for all kinds of things including the whiteward experiments?

[frigid belfry]

ehh whitewards whole ideal was to extend the life of citizens slaves by inserting silk in them, which would pass down genetically, and to create silkflies to power automatons from aging bugs, the weavers definitely had a part in the latter (silkfly lanterns in weavenests), and likely in the former during the creation of the citadel

[drifting apex]

But wouldn't extracting silk from the cocoon make it weaker? I mean if they extract silk from it the cocoon gets weaker so the day of gms waking up gets closer? Unless that's not how it works

[tepid mountain]

That’s assuming that the cocoon is the thing keeping GMS asleep.

[solemn hinge]

Doubtful, imo?

Like I get the thought process here but why wouldn’t they just use their own silk?

[drifting apex]

🤷

[frigid belfry]

the cocoon isnt the thing keeping her asleep

essentially her cradle functions like a giant rune cage

and is constantly supplanted by song

[drifting apex]

Hmm

[frigid belfry]

we still dont know what the fuck the cocoon is

its implied it was created by gms and not the weavers

[drifting apex]

Probably because they had some kind of limit to how much silk they could produce in a time frame

[solemn hinge]

Hmmm

[inner torrent]

So that's where silk came from?

[drifting apex]

The citadel extracted it from the cocoon

[cyan heart]

Lost lace so ez

[frigid belfry]

silksong "fans" after saying that ll was a bad final boss because it wasnt another large aura and hype merchant hb they couldnt beat up (they hate thematic elements and storytelling):

good job though

[visual glacier]

The only thing I don’t like about lost lace is that it’s the third boss fight with lace

[strong abyss]

I mean it fits

[visual glacier]

It just feels redundant yk

[strong abyss]

I think lost face suited the story of silksong reallly well

[lean osprey]

idgaf about fighting this mf for the third time in a row

[visual glacier]

I’m just saying gameplay-wise it’s boring

Story wise it’s good

[inner torrent]

I'm NGL, I'm pretty sure we are still getting as a final boss in dlc a mega silk momyy

[strong abyss]

fair, would something like radiance/gms be better? big and no collisions

[frigid belfry]

https://tenor.com/view/silksong-hollow-knight-grand-mother-silk-gif-13952615901513641049

[silk dirge]

once you taste tammo's first sinner final boss idea you cant go back to not thinking about it

i think the idea was something like first sinner is involved with the soul snare

and she gets corrupted by power and takes gms place

thus the theme of cycles of power

[craggy smelt]

if you're going to have First Sinner as the final boss, have her be the villain from the start

in fact have her control the Haunting - GMS is bound and used as a source of silk, a victim

[inner torrent]

Yeah, ATP just add a lever to make gms become Super gms

[craggy smelt]

you get up there and FS is orchestrating everything

[silk dirge]

i mean i feel like you have a good start

weavers and conductors werent originally villains

they became villains bc of stuff

this would work well with first sinner over enraging and becoming the villain

[strong abyss]

bug capitalism

[craggy smelt]

Weavers turned against GMS for reasons that are still pretty nebulous
but once they took over they were hardly any better

[drifting apex]

Did the conductors knew of the existence of gms?

[craggy smelt]

they created the Citadel to ensnare all of Pharloom and manipulate bugs into keeping their prisoner under wraps so they could rule

[silk dirge]

they were slaves to gms i think is a good argument

a lot of stuff indicates that

[craggy smelt]

there's mentions of them growing to find her gaze burdensome, yes

FS's anger seems to be fueled by her being lied to about their origins

[silk dirge]

theres mentions of weavers being stuck in "web and service eternal"

[craggy smelt]

sure
GMS doesn't have to be innocent by any means
but if you want First Sinner as a villain, having her using GMS as a tool for her own schemes would also be a more original departure from how the Infection in the first game worked

this time the mind controlling HB isn't actually the one really behind everything

[silk dirge]

the theme im going for here is cycles of oppression

[inner torrent]

Something like what the widow was doing?

[craggy smelt]

yeah

[inner torrent]

Guiding the haunting, but in this time more than guiding the First sinner is actually... Weaving it

[craggy smelt]

I think having the abused take over and become the abuser would also speak to a cyclical theme

[silk dirge]

yeah thats what im going for

[craggy smelt]

pulling all the silk off of GMS, almost torturing her bound god for her power
then you have the question of whether Hornet should let GMS free and what that might entail, or take over as her jailer
that would evoke the first game a lot, for better or worse

[silk dirge]

the motherhood theme is cool but is only really act 3 tbh

so i would want a more consistent theme

so have like cycles be the main theme with motherhood as a secondary but still important one

[solemn hinge]

Ehhhhh

Moss Mother, Broodmother

Phantom

[silk dirge]

i mean those are kinda minor

phantom isnt

but moss mother and broodmother dont make it like the top theme of the game

[craggy smelt]

you never found Phantom Junior?!

[silk dirge]

as opposed to like

cycles of oppression

wtf are my fingers doing

[solemn hinge]

Oh and Huntress

[silk dirge]

me when i type complete nonsense

[inner torrent]

And eva

And the bell eater

[silk dirge]

idk if eva is really motherhood

[inner torrent]

And karmelita and nyleth

[inner torrent]

More exactly daughterhood

[silk dirge]

a lot of those are kinda stretches

karmelita and nyleth isnt really motherhood

[inner torrent]

Come on karmelita is literally the biological mother of the skarrs

[craggy smelt]

bell beast has babies

[inner torrent]

I get nyleth

[solemn hinge]

All of those are act 3 tho lmfao

[inner torrent]

But that's mostly because nyleth is just Unn But flower

[silk dirge]

anyways my point is also those are kind of side things tbh

the relationship between lace and gms only becomes a super big deal in act 3

its definitely prevalent in act 2

but its not the top theme

[solemn hinge]

It’s a recurring theme of the game

[inner torrent]

Yeah, the only thing we get about them in act 1 is the dialogue in the organ

[solemn hinge]

But it’s the focus in act 3

[silk dirge]

yeah thats the issue ive heard