sk-lore

[lean temple]

I'll have to go through the dialogue again

[frosty gate]

I don't believe so, but there's definitely something behind the Mask Makers

[ember river]

Enough talk, Old One. My contract remains. I'll work till caverns' collapse.

Yep

[frosty gate]

A Contract, yeah

I don't know with what

He speaks with irreverence toward the Weavers

That said, he does call himself Mortal

[ember river]

Both mask makers seem very old

[frosty gate]

So he is quite the normal Bug

[ember river]

I mean, nobody would ever claim they are HBs

[lean temple]

Yep he only says contract, which could be his own sense of responsibility

[frosty gate]

Yeah, of course, but calling himself Mortal means he isn't even in the same league as a Vessel

[ember river]

Could be, but contracts are generally agreements

[lean temple]

It's too vague to say conclusively

[frosty gate]

He's not blessed or a creation

[ember river]

Vessels are very mortal

We see a LOT of dead vessels

Weavers are also a divine creation and still mortal

[frosty gate]

Ok, this is

Ok wait stop

[lean temple]

Immortal doesn't mean unkillable

Vampires are immortal yet they can die

[frosty gate]

It does, English is a stupid language

[lean temple]

Immortal means you don't die of natural causes like age

[ember river]

I'm tired of this argument, immortal means something cannot die, immune to death, pretty sure there's another word for not suffering age or disease or whatever

But immortal literally means unaffected by mortality

[frosty gate]

Oh wait actually it does

I HATE ENGLISH

[lean temple]

Everyone does

[ember river]

Wait does immortal have a different meaning than the latin word it was taken from

Bruh

[frosty gate]

It's vague tho
"the ability to live forever; eternal life."

I usally make distinctions because it leads to confusion

[unique canopy]

Blame media tropes for messing with the meanings

[frosty gate]

Hornet and the Vessels are long lived

Everlasting

They can die, just not of age

But they're not inmortal

[unique canopy]

Being ageless is usually called "biological immortality" but they can still be killed. This would be the vessels and possibly Hornet, maybe the higher beings. True immortality is not being able to die of anything ever.

[ember river]

Pretty much yeah

[unique canopy]

I don't think anything in the setting is a true immortal. Maybe Mr. Mushroom.

[frosty gate]

Ageless, that's the word

[mystic fiber]

it's directly powered by a silkfly jar

well not power really, it's in the architect chapel

[ember river]

Nope, but higher beings seem to be incapable of actually dying for good to normal wounds, that's why GMS needs to be either bound, or trapped and not just poked enough with the needle until she finally falls

[frosty gate]

I usually try to divide things like:
Agelessness, Undying and Inmortality, I guess

[lean temple]

Mask Maker also tells Hornet "your higher caste" and she says "I am not my kin"
He's placing her with HBs and she refuses to be part of them bcz she knows the suffering they cause.

[ember river]

Hornet is normally opposed to becoming a HB or trying to become one, but she has a certain biological impulse driving her towards that

[frosty gate]

Yeah about that, I wouldn't be sure if he's talking about Higher Beings, about her "Wyrm" side or about the Weavers

Or all three

[lean temple]

He'd say your legged ancestors if he meant Weavers

However he says higher caste which refers to HBs, as it does with GMS

[ember river]

By the looks of it, Hornet doesn't really hate Wymrs anymore than she does HBs

The rest of them I mean

[frosty gate]

Fair

[ember river]

Or at the very least, Pales, she doesn't actually talk about other gods that much

[frosty gate]

She doesn't talk about Gods at all

[ember river]

Yeah, I just don't want to keep repeating HB over and over

But even then, "higher being" appears like twice in the entire game

[frosty gate]

I know, but still, she doesn't talk about anyone aside WL, PK and Silk

[ember river]

Most of the time it's pale beings

[ember river]

Could you imagine if she actually supported the Radiance?

That would be pretty funny

[frosty gate]

She really doesn't

[ember river]

I know she doesn't

Also she does talk about gods

In the citadel conversation with Lace

[frosty gate]

She's speakin about either Rad or PK

Probably Radiance

She probably does hate Radiance

[unique canopy]

Or both

[frosty gate]

True

[ember river]

She technically never saw the fate of the Pale King, but she definetely saw the Radiance fall

[unique canopy]

With no real connections to the Court until after she was raised by the Weavers and trained by Vespa, she likely would've seen the entire situation as a pissing match between two pale beings, with everyone else caught in the middle

(though it's interesting the Weavers never told her about GMS)

[frosty gate]

She knew he failed

[ember river]

The entire situation of Hallownest being a land of formerly extremely powerful creatures, all of which have wasted away in some capacity can fit in there

[frosty gate]

Weavers likely didn't raise her

Herrah did

At least before she went to sleep

I'd say she was probably raised for a while by White Lady

[silk dirge]

does anyone know what time silksong merch drops

what time did the merch for other games this year drop on fangamer

[ember river]

How is this lore?

[silk dirge]

its something weve talked about here without issue

this is my discussion channel for silksong since i like talking about lore so i ask some unrelated stuff here

[lean temple]

Herrah had minimal time with her as she doesn't even remember her face, and Midwife supports this. She was mostly raised by WL it seems with Vespa as a mentor.

[snow sonnet]

I have no clue but my gut says in 12pm est

[mystic fiber]

kind of a strech but i think it looks sorta similar

[lean temple]

She knows all the HBs of Hallownest failed in some capacity. PK and WL failed to protect Hallownest. Unn failed to protect her creation. The Raidance ultimately fails to free herself and gets killed

[mystic fiber]

to the "mask egg"

[silk dirge]

probably a good guess

[frosty gate]

Hornet with the Weavers in Red Memory and the Hornet with Herrah don't seem the same age

She's a bit taller

So they spent time together

Just not enough

[lean temple]

That's ... what I said

[frosty gate]

Ah mb

[silk dirge]

she learnt how to weave her cloak

[foggy fractal]

shit we should've documented when the other drops happened

[stark ocean]

why does hornet not remember herrah's face when she was literally there to witness the knight kill herrah 🧐

[finite cave]

💔

THEY ARE NOT HIGHER BEINGS

[heavy gyro]

Higher beings aren't even needed

[whole holly]

two pale beings? which ones

[inner torrent]

There are two wrong things here

[unique canopy]

Or I guess Radiance isn't considered a pale being, so a pissing match between to higher beings regardless

[inner torrent]

Imo there are three types of higher beings

Physical
Pale
Dream

Physicals are usually related to forces of nature
Pales have a relation to soul in it's different forms
Dreams usually don't have a physical body

And technically all of them have certain power over the three things

[whole holly]

yes, everybody implies Radiance is Pale Beings whenever they can, which is kind of interesting, she doesn't seem like on at all

[frosty gate]

I don't even know what to expect from Tiktok comments

[whole holly]

that is bad categorization, because Physical ones like Unn dreamt up Greenpath and Mosskin, Unn isn't related to force of nature, it is kind of weird categoriation, nothing against it tho

[frosty gate]

There's just Higher Beings and Pale Beings, we don't know the distinction between the two

There's no other type

[frosty gate]

That was a Mask

All Hornet remembers is the mask

[inner torrent]

Makes sense

[pale narwhal]

so then heres the question:
if higher bejngs arent needed for mortal bugs to be intelligent, why does the desert between kingdoms wipe away all intelligent mind

[whole holly]

i personally would separate Pale Beings as soul based Higher Beings, and Dream, Void, Nightmare Based Higher Beings, being metaphysical and physical is not strictly relevant

[pale narwhal]

my current theory is that Pale beings are not superior to other higher beings just a subcategory.
a specific class of higher beings

[inner torrent]

Same, pale seems to only mean soul related

[pale narwhal]

people keep trying to say that Soul and Pals Beings are inherently linked but i dont see it

[whole holly]

yeah, White Lady is not particularly strong or Pale King

[inner torrent]

It's hard to say for white lady as she seems to suppress her power

[whole holly]

i understand tbh, all of them have connection to it, Kingsoul and GMS being Massive Silk Ball , maybe not Soul Based, White Lady has Flawed connection to Kingsoul which isn't strong connection

[whole holly]

Well, that's also true

[inner torrent]

White lady is literally a life bringer, imo, how is that not soul?

[whole holly]

i would have better conclusions but i forget HK lore details some times

[dense willow]

Two of the three pale beings we see explicitly have the power to generate soul, and the third seems to be able to metaphorically at least

[whole holly]

she mostly causes Stuff to overgrow, and created vessels, what life are you talking about aside from that, Infection, Lifeblood and being Part of Nightmare Troupe also causes bugs to overgrow or appear larger, other than that i don't know what you are talking about

[pale narwhal]

soul power could just be a generic higher being property though
considering that both Unn and Radiance were able to create life inbued with its own soul. even though moths and mosskin didn't know how to use it outwardly, they still had it

[whole holly]

only one is really explicit, other one is connection between WL and PK, which is lazy connection to soul

[dense willow]

Wdym?

The kingsoul's effect is to generate soul

And gms is the source of all silk

[inner torrent]

Let's remember hornet and lace are also pale beings

Hornet produces silk ergo, threaded soul.
Lace is literally made of threaded soul

[whole holly]

what?

[pale narwhal]

Hornet is still half mortal
Herrah may have been made by a pale being but normal weavers arent Pale like lace is

[dense willow]

Not fully, but true

[whole holly]

GMS creates Silk and that's great connection, PK and WL have Kingsoul and PK has association to soul but that's really it

[dense willow]

Why would Herrah be a pale being?

[pale narwhal]

shes not
thats what im saying

[inner torrent]

I wouldn't really use the words half mortal, specially since like, pale king died, are they really inmortal?

[dense willow]

Oh I didn't see the "made by" mb

[dense willow]

Immortal doesn't always mean "can't die"

[pale narwhal]

but yea
until we get more info on it all im just gonna count soul as a generic Higher Being power rather fhan specific to Pale Beings

[pseudo raptor]

Caretaker or Mask Maker contrasts them with mortals

[dense willow]

Sometimes for example it means you can be killed but don't die naturally

[pale narwhal]

Zi refers to hornet as half pale half bug

[inner torrent]

Interesting

Not only because it confirms you can be half pale, but also because it confirms steel city knows about paleness

[whole holly]

Soul seems to be widely available considering soul totems exist and you don't have to be Higher Being considering Shamans and AC manipulated/used it, maybe them being created doesn't require control of soul since snail shaman says it's everywhere and pulls it from sky or maybe all higher being can at least manipulate it like shamans to some extent

[pale narwhal]

also interesting because the steel city see pale beings (and maybe even higher beings in general) as distinct from bugs

[frosty gate]

Agreed

[dense willow]

Yeah, it could just be that the higher beings we see just happen to also be able to manipulate soul

[dense willow]

Yeah, I agree with this

[rain gate]

and the other question of 'are wyrms a subcategory of a subcategory'

[dense willow]

Or at least not necessarily

[dense willow]

I'd say a different sub category

[inner torrent]

I think that's the clearest

[dense willow]

As presumably the blackwyrm wasn't a pale being

Another thing is that wyrm could just be a race

[frosty gate]

What are we categorizing

[silk dirge]

merch dropped

its just the 3 items they showed tho

[dense willow]

We see that there are "roots" other than the wl, like greyroot (who I don't think is a higher being but ig could be)

[dense willow]

Sad

And we also see worms, but obviously that's spelt different

[pale narwhal]

i dont think wyrms are inherently Pale

[frosty gate]

It is

[silk dirge]

im taking that poster tho

[dense willow]

But it could mean that not all wyrms are higher beings

[frosty gate]

That's unlikely

[inner torrent]

Specially due to blackwyrm

[dense willow]

I don't fully remember bardoons dialogue, but does he confirm they all are?

[whole holly]

maybe, they never have been confirmed as higher being race, just special, and no race we see are all higher beings, White Lady and Greyroot are both roots

[pseudo raptor]

The way he talks is about wyrms in general rather than specifically PK it feels

[dense willow]

Exactly

[whole holly]

how so?

[rain gate]

he does describe the wyrms as having light but never explicitly says pale

[whole holly]

Unn is slug, so is Nuu and Salubra

[pseudo raptor]

Anyway, on the use of 'mortal'
A mortal blow is dealt on a being excluded from the 'mortal bugs'
Fun

[rain gate]

they really just be saying shit in sk

throwing around "pale" and "mortal" all the time

also hey they got rid of the slowmode

🎉

[dense willow]

I think TC must have put thought into it

[whole holly]

that's interesting it could be natural light or higher being race tbh

[dense willow]

I think it's only gms, and possibly hornet who are called pale iirc

[frosty gate]

Wyrms are supposed to be basically Giant things that reshape the world and eat bugs

[rain gate]

oh wait no hes describing the radiance not pk

nvm

[frosty gate]

It would be weird if they weren't all Higher Beings

[whole holly]

that doesn't excusively mean that they have to be higher beings

[rain gate]

also Bardoon seems to distinguish between the Wyrm and the Pale King

[dense willow]

Gimme a sec I need to go read all of bardoon's dialogue

[rain gate]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Bardoon

already there

[whole holly]

not really, it wouldn't be shocking for strong large worms to have influence without being higher beings

[pseudo raptor]

How to define higher being?

[pale narwhal]

they could be inherently Higher. but the pale king beong referred to as the pale wyrm and the white wyrm tells us that theyre not all Pale

[dense willow]

He does also see to attribute the power of foresight to all wyrms

No foresight like those old things.

[rain gate]

also bardoon saying "with its like gone" makes me think that pk was the last wyrm

or close to it

[frosty gate]

If Wyrm is a race and all do the same, that means "dying" makes them change like PK, and PK was a Higher Being

[whole holly]

but that doesn't mean they are all higher beings

[frosty gate]

I don't think it's that deep to think that Wyrms are all Higher if they transform into bugs like PK

[whole holly]

i know that specific case as well

[dense willow]

But I think that's the only reason they would all be higher beings

[rain gate]

i think wyrms aren't inherently Higher, but they give rise to Higher Beings spawned from their corpses

[whole holly]

they could transform like bugs like PK without Higher Being or Pale Being attributes too

[dense willow]

Oh I like that idea

So pk wouldn't have been a higher being before he was reincarnated

Interesting

[whole holly]

like how greyroot wanted be reborn stronger and parasited on GMS and Hornet

[rain gate]

exactly

so maybe greyroot is an "immature" form of Root

and maybe roots are inherently parasitic to wyrms/pale beings... hmmmm...

[frosty gate]

I don't know how they would do so but sure.
This conversation is a stump

[whole holly]

i mean we couldn't know if he was Pale Being and Higher Being before, his corpse certainly is white

[dense willow]

I suppose that would defeat the whole "not all roots are higher beings argument"

So that's why so many people joined the HK discord when silksong released

[warm kraken]

ikr

[dense willow]

Oh wait aren't we not supposed to do memes and stuff in this channel?

[warm kraken]

dont know, i posted it in general

[whole holly]

well clearly not all of them are but all of them want to be reborn as one, maybe wyrms do similar things when being reborn, someone said wyrms eat bugs and reshape world, but that's just theory it needs more evidence still

[dense willow]

Oh good point

I don't know where they got the "eat bugs" bit

[rain gate]

so what I'm gathering from this conversation:
Wyrms are not inherently Higher Beings, but they essentially whalefall in "good" spots, spawn a pale/higher being from their corpse, then that elevates the existing bugs
and Roots tag along on Wyrm bodies, parasitizing off of their power to... i guess grow stronger?

[dense willow]

Reshape the world makes sense at least in the context of pk though, but there is no reason all wyrms would be able to do that

[whole holly]

that's not huge stretch, only one we see turned into hb is pk and he could have been Pale being before given he is referred to as Pale Wyrm as well

[dense willow]

None of this is necessarily true, but as far as we can tell, there is no reason why it wouldnt be

[whole holly]

roots parasite on strong bugs like GMS and Hornet, so not always wyrm because they infect regular bugd just prefer stronger ones

[dense willow]

This is the reason I love HK lore so much

[rain gate]

hornet has wyrm blood so that may be what drew Greyroot to try and parasitize her but yeah maybe they just do that to all pale beings

[whole holly]

they do that to regular bugs as well, just prefer stronger

[rain gate]

when did they do it to a regular bug?

[whole holly]

chapel of witch has ton of dead bugs inside

[rain gate]

oh right

[frosty gate]

"Only one we see turned into HB is pk"
Because its the only Wyrm we see, not all Higher Beings are Pale and of course PK was Pale before. He was THE PALE WYRM but we don't even know what Pale entails

[dense willow]

Also Pavo implies many bugs have been infected in the past

When you talk to him with the baby root

[whole holly]

pale being entails pale higher being, wyrms doesn't necessarily have to be pale being or higher beings

[dense willow]

Interestingly though, iirc, he also implies that very few bugs still go to become infected, but that might just be the haunting

Which would mean that the haunting began within pavos lifetime which is a quite relevant piece of information

[frosty gate]

Pale Lurker

[rain gate]

Roots probably feed off of Soul, and since silk is soul made into strings and most bugs have a bunch of silk inside thanks to whiteward, they are probably just eating them to survive

not enough to sustain a Bud

[dense willow]

I think they're just called that after the pale king

[whole holly]

Greyroot doesn't have needolin dialogue neither does Fayforn

[dense willow]

Bc they were pk's champion

[dense willow]

Interesting

[frosty gate]

Huh????

[whole holly]

Pale Lurker is not Pale Being, or Pale even , just worshiper of Pale Being, which is explained in game so this is very disingenuous

[dense willow]

I may be misremembering

Lemme check

[frosty gate]

She's just worshipper if anything

[rain gate]

if we go off of my "roots eat soul" theory, then Greyroot wouldn't have any silk because they eated it all
and Fayforn doesnt because she never had any silk in the first place

[pseudo raptor]

Neither does bell beast

[dense willow]

Would still explain the name

[whole holly]

if you knew that she is just a worshiper of pale being who has name of Pale , because of worship, why did you use it against my point when it didn't apply

[frosty gate]

Because I want to clarify that something called Pale doesn't inherently mean Higher Being

[dense willow]

I think I was going of off the "for you, for king" dream dialogue, but yeah that could mean worshiper as well

[frosty gate]

The Palestag is another thing that is not a Higher Being, we don't even know if the thing is real

[whole holly]

Pale Being does though, and Pale Lurker is just naming convention, they aren't inherently pale

[whole holly]

another naming convention

[rain gate]

something something irish mythology something something white stag

[pale narwhal]

no I'm just saying i dont reject the possibility of them all being higher
just theyre definitely not all pale

[frosty gate]

Everything that doesn't fit your theory is a Naming Convention?

[dense willow]

That one could be a pale being at least though

Not necessarily, but it is possible

[frosty gate]

This also doesnt still prove that only PK was a higher Being because he was Pale and the other Wyrms aren't Higher too

[rain gate]

also
pale oil
pale ore

[whole holly]

they aren't pale beings though, i am talking about Pale Beings (PK, GMS , WL) which are all higher beings, Pale Lake, Pale Lurker and Palestag have lore/reason of why they are named that way and doesn't automatically imply Pale Being in any way

[whole holly]

Pale Oil is made by Sylphean Slug which may be Pale Being, but Pale Ore dosn't state connection to Pale Being or origin of sorts

[frosty gate]

Some people have said the Pale Ore could be the remnants of some Pale God or something, which is cool, but there's nothing to prove that

[tepid mountain]

Didn’t Ari say that pale ore is connected to the pale beings in some way?

[frosty gate]

Yes

[whole holly]

White Lady is Pale Being and if we use same logic that yall are using to imply that all wyrms are higher beings then all roots should be higher beings too, but that's not case with Greyroot, so lesson to learn is that just because one member of race is Pale Higher Being doesn't mean rest are Higher Beings

[pseudo raptor]

The thing is there’s no Bardoon talking about the power of roots while wyrms plural get something on them, not a direct comparison

[rain gate]

Godseeker

theres Something going on with her

[pseudo raptor]

That’s just talking about WL belonging to some powerful rank, not her species

[whole holly]

wyrms only get confirmation of abilities, not confirmation or implication that they are higher beings, just excpetional, which roots are special abilities of their own too, it is direct enough comparasion

[pale narwhal]

i belive the theory that Pale lurker is named in honour of the Pale King

id believe the Palestag may get its name from its pale glow, reminiscent of Pale Beings while not actually being one itself

[whole holly]

Wyrms are species , Roots are species, Vessels are refereed to as born of Wyrm and Root, what do you mean by powerful rank?

[frigid belfry]

pale is also used to refer to things with a whitish glow and not always in relation to pale beings

we know pale ore is connected to pb's, but palestag, pale oil, etc have no evidence of being connected to pbs

[pale narwhal]

i mean
is it not because that whitish glow is reminiscent of the glow of a Pale Being

[frigid belfry]

🤷‍♂️

[pseudo raptor]

I won’t argue for all wyrms confirmed HBs but there’s no exposition on roots as a whole vs wyrms, so just that thinking maybe wyrms as a whole are HBs is not as far fetched as thinking roots as a whole are HBs

[lean temple]

Something is up with whatever sylphean slugs are. Eva's ability is Sylphsong, and we know she's a failed imitation of GMS.

[pseudo raptor]

I am being nitpicky ig

[whole holly]

Paletouched may be phenomenon but how related they are to Pale Beings we are not sure, Pale Oil is sourced from Sylphean Slug who may be Pale Being

[pseudo raptor]

Pale beings

[rain gate]

we have 2 roots and one wyrm, one of those roots is pale and the other isn't, thats about all we know

[frigid belfry]

mostly speculation though but who knows

[whole holly]

i mean we see 2 roots and 1 wyrm (i don't count descendants of PK) plus statement by Bardoon about wyrms as a whole, i would say information from greyroot about roots is roughly equivalent to information we get from bardoon about wyrms

[lean temple]

Wyrms have confirmed feats, like establishing kingdoms and seeing the future, not something for the average bug. Roots are much more general, and WL is special because she's a root pale HB, not bcz she's a root alone. Being a Wyrm is already impressive on its own. Wyrms are very likely all or at least mostly HBs. And Wyrms are not classed as bugs either (neither are Roots but that's pretty obvious)

[rain gate]

hot take: WL is only pale because PK was
she got her paleness by being a parasite on his Wyrm body

[whole holly]

well, given what Greyroot does and achieves in Cursed Ending is roughly as much confirmed feats as wyrms are stated to have by bardoon

[lean temple]

Greyroot is a parasite witch, not a god

[frigid belfry]

from what we've seen greyroot literally absorbs the essence of the entire being to create an offspring

idk how absorbing "paleness" would work

[pale narwhal]

greyroot could only do that because if Hornet binding GMS' silk

[whole holly]

not my point, point is we have as mostly equal confirmed feats/information about wyrms and roots

[lean temple]

That's arguable. Wyrms are more grandiose beings, and establishing kingdoms isn't in the nature of roots, which themselves are quite diverse. Wyrms presumably all had similar traits to each other.

[frosty gate]

We also know that Greyroot is not a Terraforming creature akin to a titan

[lean temple]

Problem is we also don't know if Wyrms are all Pale or not.

[pseudo raptor]

Yeah I don’t get this

[whole holly]

well sure yes but i am not powerscaling, merely comparing how much information we have about them, and it's pretty much equal, i would say rebirth is as good as superpower as living long like wyrms do, and sapping power from host is as great as impressive as foresight, being large and establishing kingdoms don't really contribute to higher being status

[pale narwhal]

yet those achievements arent truly greyroot's
theyre hornets

whilst we know from Bardoon and Mr Mushroom that all wyrms have foresight and comit acts kf mass colonisation

[lean temple]

Wyrms also subjugate and dominate, pull into their thrall

[whole holly]

@pale narwhal i refer you to this

[frosty gate]

Why should we compare two different species when trying to point out differences between members of the same species

[whole holly]

Roots also dominate in their own way

[lean temple]

Wyrms can also be reborn and shapeshift

[whole holly]

to compare likelihood of Higher Being status which is only seen in one member of each species

[frosty gate]

No? They just reproduce

[lean temple]

I wonder now what the deal was with all the dead titan bugs we find all over the place

[whole holly]

they are reborn in different shapes and roots also are reborn but stronger usually

[frosty gate]

We don't know more Wyrms

[whole holly]

hornet was submissive to parasite, she couldn't heal, dive in abyss and such

[frosty gate]

We know two roots

[lean temple]

She could survive which was a feat in itself.

[whole holly]

but we do know their general description, and greyroot also gives general description when looking at traits

[frosty gate]

Cool so like the Muckmaggots also dominate?

It's a parasite

[unique canopy]

The fact that the commandment to capture Hornet has to specify "kingdom of the White Wyrm" implies not all wyrms are pale.

[lean temple]

True

[whole holly]

muckmaggots don't use force they just have opportunity to latch on, Greyroot uses force as well but in her way

[frosty gate]

Nothing of this proves that the Pale Wyrm was special in any way other than being Pale

[frigid belfry]

battle of the blackwyrm

i always knew it was zote

[whole holly]

point is there are no good reason to assume that because one member of species is pale higher being, rest would be at least higher being, regardless of species general description and their capabilities, lifespan and traits which don't inherently contribute to higher being status

[whole holly]

well we know he was pale higher being and, Pale and Pale Higher Being aren't same , that's like saying "Nothing of this proves that the White Lady was special in any way other than being Pale" he had Kingsoul and expanded minds of bugs which are unique to him as Pale Higher Being

[lean temple]

It seems uplifting is connected to pale HBs as GMS can do it too

It's interesting that GMS also imparted some of her power in the form of Silk while PK did not. Might be personal choice. GMS wanted Weavers to be her children so she would've made them in her likeness.

[frosty gate]

I'm walking out of this conversation, I'm tired, agree to disagree

[inner torrent]

Greyroot is imo a higher being in potency

[whole holly]

you're welcome to disagree, but i am glad irrefutable conclusion was reached

[frosty gate]

Irrefutable???????????????????
Oh fuck off im walking back in

[whole holly]

well, pale king's equivalent is beacon

[edgy river]

What do you mean pale and pale HBs aren't the same

Do we know a single pale being we are sure is not a HB

[frosty gate]

You are reaching conclusions throught sheer speculation comparing things that are vaguely related, there's nothing irrefutable about what you say, it's literally all speculation

[whole holly]

i mean no one refuted it

[unique canopy]

I feel like TC has their own internal lore document and most of this fan speculation is way off on multiple points.
Or they're just making everything up as they go along.

[frosty gate]

We don't know more Wyrm

[frosty gate]

It's the second option fs

[whole holly]

claim that all wyrms are hbs is just as much speculation if not more

[whole holly]

pale is description, like pale lake, pale lurker which is namesake, they aren't Pale HBs obviously

[inner torrent]

Let's remember there is a pale court

[whole holly]

thank you, that really contributes to my point

[frosty gate]

Of course it's speculation, I never meant it in any other way and I specially didn't claim it was irrefutable information

[edgy river]

The conclusion about Pale Lurker is most likely supposed to be he is related to PK. I feel like saying there are Pale creatures that are not HB goes against what we know about them by hornet herself

"You were normal bugs, caught beneath a being pale.
Devotion or destruction, this is the only fates my kind allows"

[edgy river]

She implies a "being pale" is always very powerful

[inner torrent]

Ok but, your suposicion is that there is only two class of beings

Bugs and higher beings

But there are more than that

[whole holly]

by irrefutable i meant claim that had more ground by far, and no one was able to refute it with another claim, but saying that there is no proof wyrms are all higher beings is just a fact, other speculation and arguments were just met with my counterarguments which had more ground

[inner torrent]

You can be really powerful without being a higher being, hornet itself says karmelita matches her skill

Tbh most higher beings aren't even confirmed

Like the pale king and the white lady

[sinful nimbus]

Pale King and White Lady are among the 4 explicitly confirmed higher beings

[inner torrent]

Well not the pale king, that is confirmed

[edgy river]

I'm not saying that, I'm not even sure Pale Beings are technically part of the category of Higher Being

But that doesn't really matter because the facts are beings that are pale are said to always be powerful/important enough to match higher beings

[sinful nimbus]

From both the Kingsoul description and Team Cherry's AMA comment on higher beings

[inner torrent]

True true

[frosty gate]

What I say is that it doesn't make sense that only one Wyrm, from an Ancient race of terraformimg bug eating titans, can be a Higher being solely because it's Pale. Specially because most Higher Beings are not Pale

[inner torrent]

Makes sense.
But then, the nightmare heart isn't explicitely a higher being

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah same with Unn

[inner torrent]

Yep

Unn is so cute omg, we need a mosskin game

[silk dirge]

slug game

[whole holly]

you misunderstood my point, all Pale Beings we know are Pale Higher Beings, but term pale is used outside that such as Pale Lurker(who is worshiper of Pale Being) Pale Lake which just looks Pale, but other Pale Bugs are descended related to Pale Beings in some capacity but term does exist outside that.

[silk dirge]

what if pale lake implies water is a higher being

ignore how this makes no sense

[inner torrent]

Yo yo, saying all pale beings we know are higher beings is crazy

First of all, hornet doesn't consider herself a higher being yet she is pale

[molten hollow]

Unpopular opinion: All Pale beings are equally powerful

[whole holly]

that's heavily misrepresenting my claim, PK was pale higher being, and bardoon's description doesn't confirm rest are higher beings

[inner torrent]

Nah, lace is in no way as powerful as gms

Or is she?

Can lace produce silk?

[inner torrent]

Ok the pk is a pale higher being

[molten hollow]

lace is not pale tho, no she does not because she is MADE of silk i guess

[inner torrent]

But was the pk pale while wyrm?

[frosty gate]

Yes

[whole holly]

she is described as Pale and Refereed to as Higher but not explicitly higher or pale being, but she is child of pale being

[inner torrent]

Because she is made of silk? If something that's a reason to think she is pale

[frosty gate]

It also doesn't confirm that they aren't

[inner torrent]

You can't be child of pale and not be pale

By that I can say the vessels aren't pale beings

[edgy river]

She is def a higher vring

Where did u get she doesn't consider herself that?

[molten hollow]

Lace is not born of GMS, she is made by GMS, means she is not pale, unlike hornet which is born half pale being making her not a completly a pale being but also a weaver, Half half

[inner torrent]

What's the difference tho?

I don't see much difference in being born from and made from

Is basically the same

[tepid mountain]

Well then all weavers would be pale.

[molten hollow]

No being made of silk is not a reason to be a pale being, if we assume pale beings are equally powerful why is lace weaker than GMS

[edgy river]

Born from carries DNA

[inner torrent]

Weavers aren't made of silk

[inner torrent]

Does gma even have silk?

Not all higher beings even have dna

[molten hollow]

Weavers can produce silk, but aren't made of silk, but lace is neither a weaver or a pale being

[inner torrent]

Look at radiance and nightmare heart

They are pure essence

I stand by lace being a pale being

[molten hollow]

Lace might be a similiar version of a hollow vessel, because she ignores her existence

[inner torrent]

And I stand vessels are also pale

[molten hollow]

Radiance is not a pale being tho

[whole holly]

it doesn't have to, because it doesn't state that Wyrms are exclusively HBs, which is enough to conclude that Wyrms aren't necessarily always higher beings.

[edgy river]

That's a weird question but you got the point

Lace is an artificial creation so she doesn't Cary the status of her mom

[inner torrent]

Sorry I meant If gms even have dna

[molten hollow]

Vessels? They are also born of pale beings, but they are also born of void, Is void a pale being

[inner torrent]

So by that hornet is not pale, as she is born from pale an non pale

[whole holly]

i didn't say otherwise? so how is that relevant to my comment?

[molten hollow]

Yeah that kinda proves my point, Lace and phanton are artificial so they don't hold HB strenght

[inner torrent]

Who said something about hb strength

The discussion is if she is pale or not

[whole holly]

who?

[molten hollow]

Nah she is artificial she is Made of silk, not making silk

Lace

its about lace

[inner torrent]

Not all pale beings make silk/soul tho

[molten hollow]

But they kinda make something, that is what makes them special

[inner torrent]

What does the vessel make? They don't seem to be able to create more soul nor more void

[whole holly]

lace is visibly pale sure, referred to as white knight, but she is not pale being because only pale higher being are directly referred as pale beings

[frosty gate]

"Wyrms, those ancient creature that were all Higher Beings, I am Bardoon and I approve this message"

[molten hollow]

So all wyrms are hb

[whole holly]

"source, i made it up because i was infected by radiance"

[inner torrent]

I think that's ovvious

You can't be a giant bug that destroys kingdoms and don't be considered hb

[whole holly]

no she faked quote

[dawn arch]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1345674737707253830/1376673823189110865/wiggle-cat-wiggle.gif

Oh sorry, is that supposed to be lore?

[inner torrent]

What is even pale even supposed to mean ATP?

Is pale being even a real thing distant of pale?

[edgy river]

I feel like the best interpretation of the lore is the one that follows what we know and extrapolate what we don't with enought evidence. Simply saying "it's not stated" really doesn't help much because there is an infinite amount of stuff not stated in the games.

It's not technically stated that there aren't Pale Beings that are normal bugs
But Pale is consistently used to define stuff of high-caliber. All Pale Beings have a big position of status and controls other bugs, Pale Ore and Pale Oil are miraculous substances that create the most powerful weapons and the Pale Lake is a beautiful place of peace that can house the fleas who've been traveling so much

The word "Pale" is clearly meant to have significance in the gamed worlds being used only for stuff that is seen in high-regard. So it's a safe extrapolation that Pale Beings follow that logic and are always very important and powerful bugs, even if not explicitly stated

[whole holly]

wyrms are just really unique and ancient like Fayforn, they have unique traits but only way to be higher being is for game to confirm it guys, one member of species being pale higher being doesn't make rest of species higher or pale being, given that Greyroot is neither, and being huge and ancient just makes you exceptional like Fayforn is, i refuted both arguments of making wyrms higher beings

[frosty gate]

"Since the character doesn't say it it means it isn't"

Thank God, I almost thought Herrah was a Weaver

[whole holly]

it means that there is no proof or basis and claims are speculation which is refuted

[edgy river]

Same with Wyrms, the text heavily implies then to be powerful enough to always create kingdoms so why would they NOT be HB?

[inner torrent]

The problem is

Pale kings higher being is stated to be because he is a wyrm, not because he is pale

[edgy river]

If you want only what is stated you just read the games dialogue. Lore talk is meant to extrapolate

[molten hollow]

Yeah kinda

[edgy river]

Extrapolate based on evidence tho

[whole holly]

because other powerful bugs have created kingdoms without higher being status(Khann, Karmelita), other bugs are huge and Powerful (Fayforn)

[molten hollow]

What evidence? The only thing we actually have is that all the pale beings we've seen are pale

[inner torrent]

Uh that's kinda fake tho?

[frosty gate]

It means that we don't know anything at all about Wyrms beyond the Pale one and that just because a character doesn't come out and say that all Wyrms are Higher Beings, it doesn't mean that they aren't

[edgy river]

And the game "not saying it isn't" really isn't evidence

[inner torrent]

Karmelita and Khan didn't create kingdoms

[frosty gate]

Those are Tribes

[inner torrent]

Pharloom was created by the weavers

[molten hollow]

Kingdoms? Karmelita did not do neither did khan

Pharloom is a kingdom, it has many tribes

[whole holly]

i am arguing evidence isn't enough and presenting counter evidence

[edgy river]

The mantises created a tribe

Without a HB

It's common

[molten hollow]

If karmelita made a kingdom lets just assume the mantis is a kingdom not a trib

[whole holly]

my point is that that's not sufficient, if you are going to make claim based no evidence then it can also be refuted without evidence

[inner torrent]

Tbh I can't compare wyrms and fayforn

There is no normal bug that equals the size of the wyrms, not even an eight part of it

[frosty gate]

You were the one who made a claim about Wyrms not being Higher Beings at all, I just said it would be weird if it weren't

[whole holly]

well sure but it still sheer size doesn't make higher being, i was comparing wyrms with fayforn because they are both ancient

[molten hollow]

But wait isn't GMS a wyrm? Doesn't her crown ressembles a wyrm

It may be, and may also be false

if its false then why, show evidence

[mystic fiber]

okay so how does a memory locket expand hornet's crest

[molten hollow]

this is the lore one tho

[mystic fiber]

i just couldnt think of how

[inner torrent]

Its like eating the brain of someone to expand your mind

[whole holly]

i mean nothing implies that they are and Evidential Burden is on positive claim, which is claim that wyrms are higher beings

[whole holly]

Crust King Khann was King without Kingdom? why isn't territory other Rulers ruled kingdom? they are territory with ruler and isn't that enough for kingdom?

[mystic fiber]

Khann once ruled half of pharloom according to snail shamans

so he did have a kindom in some way

[inner torrent]

Hornet is not a higher being imo

[molten hollow]

Maybe he was a king before Weavers entered pharloom, but if weavers Pharloom existed before Khann then its not a kingdom

[whole holly]

Verdania was Kingdom, which furthers the point of Wyrm's trait of establishing Kingdoms isn't sufficient of higher being status

[whole holly]

yeah, but it was at some point like Verdania

[inner torrent]

I mean

[blissful harbor]

shes definitely not
best way to describe her is a demi-god, even if that isn’t a thing in universe

[inner torrent]

Wyrms were never stated to be the ones to make kingsoms

But that they like to

[frosty gate]

They just conquered the people in a cavern.
Wyrms MAKE caverns

[molten hollow]

what about the blackwyrm, does that ring any bells? is it a pale being or is it not

[whole holly]

i am aware of that, but that doesn't refute my point, which is wyrm's traits aren't enough to put them at higher being status since they non-higher being can have ability and desire to establish kingdoms

[blissful harbor]

it’s a single line from ogrim, theres nothing else to go off of

[whole holly]

again, abilities due to sheer size aren't really are argument for higher being, it's just physical ability which doesn't contribute to higher being status

[inner torrent]

Are splinters plant life? Or just bugs that mimic plants

Same to the green princes

Because, they are usually described as bugs, but when the die vegetation flowers from them, how does that works, is not literal?

[blissful harbor]

wyrms have foresight, and probably all gave sentience granting capabilities (speculation)
id say they would all qualify as Hbs

[edgy river]

Want evidence?

Wyrms are giant bugs, like absurdly giant and have the hability of foresight
"Don't mistake. I am not a wyrm... Ohrm... Too small, I am. Too many limbs. No foresight like those old things."

Wyrms always create long lasting kingdoms and civilization
"Wyrms pull bugs into their thrall, till ages pass and kingdoms fall"

Worms seen to be ancient beings with very long lives that usually don't die, instead, transform
"This ashen place is grave of Wyrm. Once told, it came to die. But what is death for that ancient being? More transformation methinks. This failed kingdom is product of the being spawned from that event."

Higher beings are beings "above all others" and the one and only wyrm we know is explicitly a Higher Being
Reddit AMA answer
https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/6rvds8/we_are_team_cherry_the_developers_of_hollow/dl8567s/

God-like creatures usually are higher beings
"perhaps in special instance? though usually the god-like creatures are higher beings." (Developer note before Godmasters, the word "god" did not have the current meaning in HK lore)

So, our assumption is: a giant, absolutely huge bug which always creates kingdoms and maintain them until they fall, have the ability to see the future and revive as a new form after death are part of the "god-like beings" of this world

You assumption: they aren't...

[blissful harbor]

would be hard to rule over bugs if they were all just instinct driven beasts, id imagine they all could do what Pk did to a degree

[inner torrent]

I think all wyrms are hb is obvious

Pale king state of higher beingsy is more linked to his past as wyrm than to his paleness

[frosty gate]

Place your cheek im gonna kiss you

[blissful harbor]

pale is an indicator of soul use

usually

[molten hollow]

Wyrm does not equal high being

[lilac hedge]

we never got to iselda stretch her legs...

[molten hollow]

How could the Five knights defeat the blackwyrm if wyrms are higher beings than bugs, or are higher beings not as powerful

[lilac hedge]

ya want me to highlight it

[frosty gate]

Actually yes, that seems to be the case

[inner torrent]

Yep

[silk dirge]

and we got silk now

[blissful harbor]

we have no clue what the blackwyrm was
could be the name of a place

[inner torrent]

As hornet said, even gods can die

[whole holly]

i spent my entire time refuting each of wyrm's traits as enough to make higher being and you regurgitated already refuted points

[inner torrent]

Omfg where is the entrance to the vaults????

[lilac hedge]

cogwork core

[inner torrent]

Oh

[molten hollow]

She said they can die, but not by anyone

[edgy river]

My point is all the evidence points to Wyrms being HB even if not explicitly stated.

Ignoring it because "it's not 100% proof" is only valid if you have enough evidence that they are not

[blissful harbor]

there are so many flaws with your thinking, battle doesn’t assume whatever the blackwyrm was died, could’ve been repelled
i’m not entirely convinced it even was a wyrm

[whole holly]

they meant specific ones, but very deliberate not to Highlight Root as it would disprove your own claim since Greyroot is a root, if referring to entire species it's wrong it can only refer to individual wyrm and root in HK

[blissful harbor]

theres zero mention of it anywhere , which you think if they fought a fucking wyrm

there would be more mention

[edgy river]

We don't even know if the battle of the Blackwyrm was against a wyrm

[frosty gate]

We... simply don't know.
PK is called "The Wyrm" or "Pale Wyrm", so there's a chance the Blackwyrm wasn't specifically a Wyrm itself.

[lilac hedge]

i didnt highlight root because i just wanted to show wyrm mate is not that deep

[edgy river]

Maybe they fought in a dead Wyrms she'll or smth and Blackwyrm was the place of the war, we really do not know and don't have evidence to assume

[molten hollow]

And the fact hornet defeated GMS, we don't have an actual statement that anyone defeated any wyrm, We only know the blackwyrm was defeated by the Five knights and the pale king, and that the Pale king was defeated by the Void

[lilac hedge]

and also they didnt specify which wyrm they just said wyrm so its not like it couldn't be the whole species

[molten hollow]

So this make void even higher than all higher beings

which void also defeated GMS at the end

[frosty gate]

Greyroot literally made a parasite to latch onto a Halfwyrm to then consume a fully fledge Higher Being
Whatever she is, she's not normal

[molten hollow]

of act 3

Is void a god? Nobody has proven that its killable, they only found the delicate flower as a seal

[frosty gate]

That goes without saying

[inner torrent]

And not even that

[whole holly]

Evidential Burden is carried by person making positive claim, i already presented counterarguments to your arguments, i don't need evidence to refute claim never proven

[inner torrent]

Because the battle of blackwyrm isn't even stated to have been won neither that the enemy was killed

[whole holly]

sure bro, that's totally it

[frosty gate]

In times like this one learns to appreciate Star while in character

[whole holly]

same applies to root which is disproven, if they were all wyrms it would be plural

[blissful harbor]

it was won, pretty sure ogrim calls them glories

[molten hollow]

they did win indeed

[inner torrent]

Oh

[silk dirge]

why is weapon durability in hk and silksong so funny

how did pv's pure nail break

[blissful harbor]

it’s been in there for ages

[silk dirge]

like a pure nail should not be able to crack like that 😭

[lilac hedge]

yes lol? why do you have the need to overthinking it that much

[molten hollow]

The pure vessel's nail was there for probably decades

[whole holly]

because you used it to make wrong claim

[silk dirge]

it somehow still has the pure nail design on it tho

i wonder if you could just repair that with shell shards or some shit tbh

[blissful harbor]

if shell shards could act like pale ore

[inner torrent]

Maybe even mileniums

[molten hollow]

what does that even have to do with lore typa shit

[spark valve]

The comparative qualities of the materials would make me suspect otherwise

[silk dirge]

yeah

[spark valve]

The finest metal plus uh some bones

[silk dirge]

but i wonder how pv would go about repairing that

[lean osprey]

is it just me or is grandmother silk resisting the void and maintaining the haunting after getting the shit kicked out of her kinda crazy

[blissful harbor]

more pale ore

[lean osprey]

is gms in the goat discussion 🤔

[silk dirge]

the nail is already a pure nail tho

theres nothing more to add to it

[frosty gate]

It honestly is, woman too angry to die

[silk dirge]

it has the pure nail design

[spark valve]

Uuuh depending on nailsmith’s fate it might not really be possible

[molten hollow]

no she kinda just a side chick in the discussion

[lean osprey]

all like 5 seconds after waking up too

[silk dirge]

pv learns nailsmithing

[inner torrent]

Gms is stronger than radiance imo

But that's probably more because she is in the physical world

[molten hollow]

neither are stronger, both we're beaten the shit out of by the void

[inner torrent]

So she is already in her "Realm" unlike radiance which was fighting a different realm

[molten hollow]

Nah Radiance lwk more powerful because she penetrates the dreams

[blissful harbor]

repairing is different than adding

[inner torrent]

Imo gms is better as she takes control of the body

The body is ultimately, over the mind

[molten hollow]

makes the job even easier for the radiance, why did the pale king have trouble fcking with the radiance

[lean osprey]

gms seems to have more direct control to me, and an easier time establishing control

radiance does a whole thing she lowk doing way too much

[molten hollow]

Radiance doesn't exist in realm but it exist in minds tho

[inner torrent]

Shit there goes my 200 rosaries

[silk dirge]

the only reason im having this discussion is i dont like perfect weapons being able to break and age 😭

like where is hornet in 500 years going to find more pale oil

[molten hollow]

200 rosaries? you poor af i would spend 200 for less

[molten hollow]

uhhh don't you think this infinite land of waste doesn't have a single pale ore innit?

[silk dirge]

its wastelands i doubt it

[inner torrent]

Next game will be a farm game where hornet harvests sylphean slugs

[molten hollow]

that would be a good idea, is this team cherry's server? Hit them up with this banger

[edgy river]

Wait until TC release a P2W grind-heavy game where you play as a underworks pilgrim trying to get to the citadel

They'll make so much money

[frosty gate]

Next game will obviously be Stardew Valley in Hallownest but we play as THK

[fathom hill]

at this point just release the dating simulator

i have more faith in that

[molten hollow]

I hope they let us play in a game as THK, that would be so good tho we finally get to live as the main story character

[frosty gate]

Loam Clicker simulator

[molten hollow]

Bet they already started working on the 3rd game

[fathom hill]

Hollow knight: hollow knight

[silk dirge]

nail upgrade would be so funny for that tbh

[fathom hill]

Prolly not, but who is to say

[silk dirge]

like you just find some random metal to forge into the pure nail

[fathom hill]

they've said they're planning on concentrating on ss for now

[silk dirge]

and boom all set

[fathom hill]

but also they have another ip not cleared yet so

who really knows what is happening there

[molten hollow]

bet they are "polishing" the DLCs

[pale narwhal]

watch it be another case of dlc getting too big to not be a 3rd game

[fathom hill]

would you imagine

they planning on a lace dlc

as if those thing happened

[molten hollow]

a dlc where you play as lace during the weaver's time

[fathom hill]

would mess the timeline a bit

But the hornet dlc thing happened cuz they really wanted to have another character as playable

I'm not sure if it will happen the same this time with silksong

they'll prolly stick to one game one protagonist this time

[inner torrent]

Welll

The idea was to have three playable characters ...

[molten hollow]

we are getting 2 more games then

[silk dirge]

prediction

hollow knight: steelheart

[molten hollow]

for what tho

[silk dirge]

city of steel

[molten hollow]

What will you play as? lurien the watcher

[silk dirge]

we dont know

possibly another hornet game

[frosty gate]

THK hopefully

[molten hollow]

not a good idea tho, would be lame af

[silk dirge]

but steel city i think is either going to be a big dlc or even another game

[lilac hedge]

another hornet game would be ass bro

[inner torrent]

What if we play as grimmchild

[lilac hedge]

im already tired of her character

[silk dirge]

how would that work

bro is massive

[frosty gate]

It works in two ways

[molten hollow]

Bro is massive....... That could be an excuse so that they make an even larger map for a larger game for THK

[frosty gate]

1. Risk of Rain style, full hordes of enemies

2. Creatures made of Steel that can take a hit

[silk dirge]

anyways a thk game would be really funny tbh

bc thk already has a pure nail

it just needs to get fixed up a little bit

[inner torrent]

Also, steel characters are massive so

[lilac hedge]

thk game wouldn't make much sense if it was in its pv form cuz the point of hk games are to build up your character with abilities and progress on your own and pv already has allat

[tepid mountain]

Could be a “gets kidnapped” kinda thing again.

[frosty gate]

Well, there's something to be said about this

You can't damage steel

Not with nails or needles

[silk dirge]

yeah

also a thk game would confirm etv

[lilac hedge]

etv?

[silk dirge]

embrace the void

[lilac hedge]

spells and ez

[frosty gate]

Hornet somehow lost Thread Storm while trapped in a cage

[tepid mountain]

ETV is already confirmed. Like all of them are.

[frosty gate]

THK has been trapped in the Egg for ages

[silk dirge]

once thk gets out it just needs to farm some soul to heal its arm back

[lilac hedge]

she didnt even keep one of her stingshards 💔

[frosty gate]

I don't think it would be weird for them to just not have their proper strength

[silk dirge]

and then basically everyone in its way is cooked

[frosty gate]

Imagine we get a fucking steel arm

[silk dirge]

i doubt it

thk can focus

that probably would repair its arm

if it healed

[frosty gate]

We don't know if that's how it work

Like yes it heals but like

We've never seen it regrow a limb

[silk dirge]

i mean that just seems to make sense tho

[frosty gate]

I can't say it doesn't, but I wouldn't count on it

[silk dirge]

also i just realized something funny

hornets health scales depending on if shes in a duel or not

[frosty gate]

Also because I just love the thought of THK having a Steel Arm

[silk dirge]

bc like you lose all your health to shakra right

but you dont die

versus another enemy you would

powerscalers begone

[blissful harbor]

that’s just shakra not killing you

it’s a duel not a fight to the death

[silk dirge]

i mean yeah but whats the difference

is it like a killing blow type deal

[blissful harbor]

or hornet just falls to the ground and shakra gives up, calls a truce we don’t see

tons of ways to not kill someone in a sparring match

[frosty gate]

The difference is that Shakra doesn't deal a killing blow, but she still knocks you out

Another enemy will go for the kill

[silk dirge]

anyways all im saying is that damage is not drawn but it is pretty clear to me you could definitely heal up

thk could probably fix up its mask also

[frosty gate]

Ok, I have no real prove, but i actually doubt he could fix his mask without a Mask Maker

[silk dirge]

i think its a lot of gameplay vs lore stuff bc canonical hornet probably never gets that low

[frosty gate]

I think I'm more willing to die on this hill than the arm

[silk dirge]

nah

what makes a mask different

[blissful harbor]

the crack is probably permanent

it’s on the shade too

[silk dirge]

its basically just a face

[frosty gate]

The crack is in the Shade

[blissful harbor]

it’s a mental scar, from Rads bright ass light
i doubt it would be able to just fix it like that

[frosty gate]

That might as well be permanent

[silk dirge]

ok yeah that is kinda weird tbh

[frosty gate]

"No mind to think" my ass

[silk dirge]

how does thk regrow its arm in dnm for its shade is my question

[blissful harbor]

arm rotted off physically
could probably heal

[silk dirge]

im just gonna headcanon thk kept the crack bc it looked cool

[lilac hedge]

it does?

[silk dirge]

yeah

[sinful nimbus]

I think the crack is representative of the mental trauma

[lilac hedge]

isnt the crack on his head just the rad tryna escape

or sum

[silk dirge]

i feel like in a thk game the crack healing could symbolize something idk

but i dont think theyd do that

bc it means they need to redraw all sprite sheets

[blissful harbor]

it keeping the crack is more symbolic imo

even if it could heal it, shows what it went through, keep thk cracked

[frosty gate]

VOID ARM

[silk dirge]

it gives thk aura

[frosty gate]

I honestly just want them to not have the arm because it would look really cool

[lilac hedge]

what if he just used some cogwork shit mecahnical arm hornet builds

lemme cook chat

[blissful harbor]

they were left out of sotv fot a reason

[silk dirge]

anyways the only question im still wondering about is how thk repairs its nail

[blissful harbor]

pale ore

[silk dirge]

maybe it could just do some soul shit

pale ore is probably related to soul in some way

[blissful harbor]

also like if it can use its spells again, it hardly needs a nail ngl

[silk dirge]

i mean its nail is probably needed for some of its spells

like the nails from the ground

also i already bought this poster https://www.fangamer.com/collections/hollow-knight-silksong/products/silksong-poster

it looks so good

[lilac hedge]

i mean 24 dollars for a big paper is kinda wild but since its hk

[silk dirge]

i mean think of it kinda like buying a painting

i imagine its a pretty high quality print

plus some of the money probably goes to tc

[lilac hedge]

it better be 3d for that price

[twin dragon]

lwk aura poster but this shit better simulate exploring pharloom irl for the price+

[cedar skiff]

damn so mosshome is really getting its own heart

[twin dragon]

what

[cedar skiff]

the only good thing hornet inadvertently does for the ecosystem

i was just looking back ag moss druids crack visions

[silk dirge]

moss druid boss fight

[cedar skiff]

the needolin is rly what got me

“Beat beat beat!
In coral, in shell...
And why not here?!
Beating, beating...
The world's rhythms...
In branches, in fields!”

[twin dragon]

so basically

"why no heart : ("

[twin dragon]

mr mushroom spoke

[sinful nimbus]

err moss druid is a they

[twin dragon]

moss druid is moss druid

[cedar skiff]

I didnt make the image

[twin dragon]

And i will refer to moss as such

[cedar skiff]

But i they them

anyway moss druid dialogue might be worse than mask maker

they need to stop waffling about

they (plural)

[twin dragon]

Thank thee

[upper copper]

What type of bug are the conductors based on?

[twin dragon]

Eh

we've never rlly seen one without the cape

[cedar skiff]

“When you wake they shall see your truth,

A beast's nature bare to all.”

“...Our nature... [] ...Come, child... Witness our waking...”

these parallels man

maybe romino was cooking

[twin dragon]

Interesting topic: Why does gms refer to herself as them

In the silk hearts dialogue

[cedar skiff]

i also wonder about this

[twin dragon]

It could be all of the weavers she's bound to herself

[frosty gate]

GMS She/Them

[twin dragon]

Or yk, anything else really

[cedar skiff]

i actually fuck with that idea… a fucked up collective

[twin dragon]

Like aint no way

[cedar skiff]

ive seen a cartoon execute a similar concept of the big bad being a collective of the kingdoms smartest (and unfortunately most evil) minds

[twin dragon]

it's NOT that

[twin dragon]

Gms is one thing doe

she's like hornet

lots o natures within her

[opal jasper]

im currently looking through the sourcecode of silksong and I found this

havent seen anyone talk about this

[cedar skiff]

is gms maybe just primal as hell as the manifestation of a concept

[opal jasper]

curious whether vampiregnat is moorwing or something else

and it just went unused

[twin dragon]

It could be

since its related to the graymoor caravan in the code

[cedar skiff]

the shade lord is also a manifestation of void basically but also several entities but also one at the same time and ughh

[twin dragon]

Piloted by TK apparently

[inner torrent]

Hornet is to silk what knight is to void

[cedar skiff]

It seems that these kind of entities are driven by the most primitive of instincs

I mean gms whole shtick is just wanting obedient children

And i guess worship

[inner torrent]

If hornet decided to bind gms she would have become a higher being like in weaver queen ending imo

[cedar skiff]

the knight rallied the void just to save hornet

and gms fought the void back just to save lace, not even giving a fuck abt the kingdom

Its like base instincts

[dry bridge]

it's probably a flag for the alternate moorwing location in act 2

[twin dragon]

Though gms's redemption as a whole kinda confuses me

[cedar skiff]

or rather very feelings driven

[twin dragon]

Like she very clearly created lace for her own benefit

just like she apparently did with phantom and the weavers

but all of a sudden she loves lace?

[inner torrent]

Saving void saved the kingdom tho

[cedar skiff]

i dont think its really a redemption

[twin dragon]

She literally ends up helping hornet escape

WITH lace

And she made the cocoon to protect her

[cedar skiff]

It just shows that despite sucking so fucking much at her job of being s mother she still loves her daughter and is only able to prove it in the most drastic situations

[inner torrent]

Gms is actually better than radiance

[cedar skiff]

Its kind of a franchise thing that small feelings are expressed at worldly expense

[twin dragon]

Though she made lace obedient and unable to grow

[inner torrent]

She is haunting so she can strength herself and be free.
Radiance just wants to be stronger

[cedar skiff]

Simply a creator caring for its spawn led to the (in pharlooms case almost) collapse of a kingdom

[twin dragon]

With the purpose to seemingly wake her up

somehow

As the silk heart dialogue implies

Like she's made to be a tool

[cedar skiff]

well shes still a control freak fucking sucking at being a mom

[twin dragon]

why would she care

[cedar skiff]

We dont have the context to fully confirm this but i like the theory that the reason shes so “harsh” on lace is because the citadel had forced phantom to work in the exhaust organ and gms saw that as betrayal because she “”worked”” for the people keeping her asleep

[cedar skiff]

why does the pk care for thk if its just a tool to seal the radiance

[twin dragon]

she def didn't see shit

she couldn't

[inner torrent]

How did hornet get a silk heart from the bell beast?

[twin dragon]

I mean i don't rlly think he did

Pk just treated thk better

ish

[cedar skiff]

she somehow made them while asleep bro she definitely saw shit

[twin dragon]

enough for thk to manifest some feelings

[cedar skiff]

hey or maybe she made lace childlike so lace remains attached

[twin dragon]

she's somehow controlling the entire kingdom while asleep

[twin dragon]

Yeah

[cedar skiff]

https://tenor.com/view/sealed-vessel-hollow-knight-pale-gif-22099849

[inner torrent]

Did lace and phantom ever communicated with gms?

[twin dragon]

Probably from the silk in which BB was trapped in

[cedar skiff]

There is at least some pride for it

also i dont think lace was a tool

[frosty gate]

I still don't know why

[cedar skiff]

i dont think thats what the dialogue implies

[twin dragon]

It could imply one that actually remembers and cherishes gms

[cedar skiff]

I think “One to wish our waking” is expressing bitterness towards how the weavers kept her asleep

[twin dragon]

Could be, but gms has been an asshole to all of her children

so she just treats the one semi perfect child

Or maybe she learns to accept that even if lace betrayed her and hated her, she's still her child

[inner torrent]

Lace, phantom and widow birth is really weird

Like, when did they exactly appear?

[cedar skiff]

“Better a child spun pure than them” is the only part that’s slightly confusing

but i think its just abt how lace is pure silk and the weavers werent

[inner torrent]

I think she means, better a child created of silk-

Well, that

[cedar skiff]

yep, but it implies that her upkeep really does take lots of effort for gms

[twin dragon]

A child purely out of silk that doesn't rlly have other desires

[silk dirge]

isnt it "better a child spun mad"

[cedar skiff]

Its both

and frail, also

[inner torrent]

Is the mad child phantom or lace?

[frosty gate]

"Better a child that is forced to obey me than them"

[twin dragon]

lace

[inner torrent]

Or both

[frosty gate]

Lace

[cedar skiff]

i think mad is lace

[frosty gate]

Technically both

[silk dirge]

mad might be phantom

[cedar skiff]

actually both apply to both

[twin dragon]

phantom is lwk chill

Plus the silk heart from lace, refers to lace

shocker

[inner torrent]

Wait, so bell beast was silked?

[twin dragon]

Idrk how the hell did it end up there

[frosty gate]

She begs for Hornet to kill her

[inner torrent]

She was being silly and got trapped

[frosty gate]

I don't know how is she chill

[twin dragon]

yeah well she's miserable as hell

and she isn't rlly laughing and jumping around

nor childishly envious

without even knowing what mother actually wants

[inner torrent]

Could lace and phantom get silk skills?

[frosty gate]

Phantom has the Parry

[twin dragon]

It would prob cripple them

[frosty gate]

So I guess?

[twin dragon]

since they can't rlly generate silk

[twin dragon]

The parry phantom uses isn't really a silk skill

doe

[inner torrent]

Phantom also used a clawline like attacl

[twin dragon]

True

[inner torrent]

But maybe she just knows how to actually reuse the thread

[twin dragon]

or, yk, she's going to die

but she'll die with a blast

phantom can't just beg for death

she has to aura farm

[frosty gate]

It's considered one when you use it

[twin dragon]

Yeah

weird

though the vfx for phantom's parry are gold ish

indicating that she's using her pin

[frosty gate]

I mean, so does Hornet

[inner torrent]

Why some hornet attacks are goldish?

Her needle is white, not golden

[frosty gate]

Lace also uses Silk

Techincally

Or is it just during Lost Lace?

Can't remember

[cedar skiff]

does phantom even ever mention gms

hold on

[frosty gate]

Nope

[inner torrent]

What attack exactly?

[cedar skiff]

damn she doesnt

[inner torrent]

The orb like thinks imo look like a silk skill

[upper copper]

“She spun us to fade”

[frosty gate]

The multiple slashes she does before she pounds the ground

[frosty gate]

I keep forgetting about that interaction

[cedar skiff]

that’s likely lace speaking

[inner torrent]

I think I got what they meant with lace and phantom not being pale beings

[cedar skiff]

phantom seems to be asleep in the tank

[inner torrent]

They aren't really beings at all...

[cedar skiff]

anywho i wish we got more of phantom and lace

[frosty gate]

We need more Phantom and Lace

[upper copper]

It’s like they are both some kind of hollow knights

[cedar skiff]

generally i wish we got to see more of lace confiding in someone

generally generally

more lace

and phantom yes

[inner torrent]

Lace and phantom duo fight would be peak

Something smreally well thought

[frosty gate]

It will happen, you can trust that

[cedar skiff]

one can only hope…

[upper copper]

What’s the deal with brightvein?

[inner torrent]

I think is interesting how powerful music is in hkverse

[cedar skiff]

ok since the pantheons in hk spell out mask what the hell would the equivalents spell out in sk

[inner torrent]

With what?

[cedar skiff]

silk

[frosty gate]

Brightvein, the thing in Mt Fay

I have no idea honestly, no lore on that

[upper copper]

Weird small area nobody cares about. I mean it looks pretty and it has a big magnetite ore. Could it be bigger than we saw?

[frosty gate]

It's called "Vein" I doubt it is

It's just like a crack in the ice

[cedar skiff]

im the number one mourner of the fact that phantom isnt even required for true ending

[upper copper]

Call me crazy but the PoP equivalent is probably gonna be near brightvein, like in Celeste where we enter its core

[cedar skiff]

i mean yeah cool metanarrative detail for the discarded child but also oughh

[inner torrent]

I didn't knew HK pantheons spelled domething

[frosty gate]

She's so discarded she's not needed to finish the game lmao

[upper copper]

I think the pantheons in sk would spell out a 5 letter word, because we will have alot more bosses

[cedar skiff]

im surprised there hasn’t been much discourse around lace dropping the term fathomless beings

another one to the pile of ambiguous god describing terminology

[inner torrent]

What's fathom?

[upper copper]

I’m more surprised there hasn’t been discourse on the fact lace killed innocent ppl for no reason

[pale grove]

im not. when we first meet her she gives off the vibe she kills people for fun

[cedar skiff]

i forgive her

she must’ve met trobbio and decidedto keep him alive so all is well

[visual glacier]

What’s the discussion

[cedar skiff]

just talking about lace

[pale grove]

lace is a monster

[cedar skiff]

its a fancier synonym for understanding/conceiving something

[frosty gate]

The reason was free GMS

[inner torrent]

Basically a therm for crazy

[frosty gate]

Not justified

Just the reason

[inner torrent]

Tbh if I was a pale being I would probably just go around killing bugs

Are spool fragments physical or ethereal?

Like does hornet carry a spool or is engraved on her shell

[frosty gate]

It should be ethereal

[twin dragon]

Sherma straight up hands out one to hornet doe

in whiteward

Hornet prob binds them to her shell

[frosty gate]

Ok, correction, I don't think Hornet is a lunatic imagining it

[twin dragon]

idfk

[frosty gate]

Yes

Thats what i was gonna say

[twin dragon]

the amount of shit that hornet just sniffs

is wild

[frosty gate]

YOLO

[inner torrent]

I noticed there is an increase in bugs with hairy extremities in this game

[stray hearth]

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-nightmare-king-grimm-edit-gif-6244953607213386862

[visual glacier]

Tuff 🥶

[inner torrent]

What if Seth was the first bug to be haunted, but instead of being haunted by the gms, he was haunted by the weavers

[frigid belfry]

huh

[inner torrent]

So Seth was presumably given to protect nyleth by the weaver's citadel, so what if they put silk inside him to control him in order to take care of nyleth sanctum as long as her memory perdured.
That would explain why he is like "Controlled" and out of himself, and also why he is somewhat inmortal to aging

[ornate pier]

Isn't the implications that it's some nyleth magic shenanigans

Idk

[inner torrent]

Good point

[unborn terrace]

How was knight holding the everbloom

[blissful harbor]

with their hand

but seriously, their body is shell, the flower never touched the void inside of them

[frosty gate]

We don't know enought about Seth or anything Nyleth related to make much assumptions I'm afraid

I just assume that Hornet hit him really fucking hard and now he's amnesic

I like Seth a lot as a boss

But I hate how little everything related to him there is

[lapis creek]

we are too busy with hornet

[sinful nimbus]

I'm starting to think this Lace character isn't a good guy...

[snow sonnet]

Caretaker best character in the game that acutally tells us stuff

[snow sonnet]

I miss "The Voice"