sk-lore

[lean temple]

Hmm

[ornate pier]

Maybe voiding will be its own special modifier

[hidden crater]

lost nyleth dear god have mercy

[ornate pier]

Or some shit

Not related to ascended

[solemn hinge]

No I mean just for the ones that have it

[hidden crater]

actually what would be the hardest boss to face a lost version of

[lethal burrow]

Somebody should do a randomizer, but every single enemy is savage beast fly

now that's a video I watch

[lean temple]

I wonder what the lore and ending for pantheons would be

[hidden crater]

theres item rando and thats all of the randos i know so far (im behind modding)

[hidden crater]

the ending for p4 is that the hollow knight solves his daddy issues

[lethal burrow]

if it's God seekers again, I bet it would probably be about making them realize they don't have to be such simps to "Gods" and all that. that they can just be on their own.

If it's anything else, then it could be literally anything

[lean temple]

It'd be pretty funny to see Godseekers again. Hornet like "Oh, it's you again."

I do hope they don't show up tho

[hidden crater]

secret cutscene where hornet talks with the knight about how fucking annoying the godseekers are for calling everything "gods" after doing all bindings for every pantheon trust

[fathom pollen]

Does hornet gain silk form the bugs in unnamed town?

[solemn hinge]

I bet she does

[lean temple]

Skrills? Yes

[solemn hinge]

Yeah cause they still have Soul

[lethal burrow]

I can see you somehow being able to access it through the abyss and act three vaguely but yeah I do hope they do something different

[frosty gate]

Godseekers are dead, they can't comeback

[solemn hinge]

Possibly

[frosty gate]

Well, assuming EtV is this ending

[lethal burrow]

Speaking of which what's up with the unnamed town I feel like it's important

[solemn hinge]

Could be DNM tbf

[lean temple]

Surface town whose residents where lured into Pharloom by the Weavers

[lethal burrow]

But why?

[frosty gate]

Ill die on my EtV hill, but that's a boring discussion

[frosty gate]

Slavery

[lean temple]

The Weavers wanted more manpower for the Citadel and stuff

[frosty gate]

They probably gifted them mirrors

[lethal burrow]

But why specifically the nameless town though feels like there was plenty of people below

seems like an awful lot of effort for like 30 people.

It's not even a city. It's just a single town.

[lean temple]

They're not far away from the Citadel unlike the people living at the bottom of Pharloom ig

[frosty gate]

I have a theory

[ornate pier]

I think both are canon but it won't be godseekers eitherway

[lethal burrow]

That seems like an unsatisfying answer, given the narrative significance

[lean temple]

It's just a theory. I don't really know why the Weavers would "choose them" so to speak

[frosty gate]

I think that the Nameless Town denizens are the first things that came into the Citadel

My longshot is that the first Conductors came from there

Same as the Vaultkeepers

[ornate pier]

My idea is pretty rough but it's like there's an aged bug in the memorium (Maybe literally one of the memoria? It could be nice to have an non haunted choir member) who's seen a lot but has a fuzzy memory
And tuning is just helping them remember or some shit
And then when you enter their memories swith elegy Woah it's silk godhome!!!

[lethal burrow]

Maybe the answer is something something orgen sleepers all along

[solemn hinge]

Unnamed Town is the Silksong equivalent of Dirtmouth

[midnight zinc]

It's the silksong equivalent of Hallownest's Crown

[frosty gate]

Which is not wrong, but the purpose is different

[lethal burrow]

but maybe we should consider the narrative reason.

They're both towns at the top of the kingdom this seems like an interesting intentional parallel. I just wonder why it was made.

[frosty gate]

The Town? It just existed there

Before everything

Probably even before GMS came

I don't think no one played a hand on that

[lethal burrow]

But the game was made by team Cherry

The same people who made hollow knight

[midnight zinc]

Source?

[lethal burrow]

they made dirtmouth

And they decided to parallel it in the nameless town

For what reason?

[midnight zinc]

What paralell

[sinful nimbus]

Oh that explains everything

[lethal burrow]

Read up

[frosty gate]

Oh I get what you mean

I don't think there's some crazy parallel honestly, it's just two different towns that were above the caves of the actual kingdom

[midnight zinc]

Yeah I fail to see any significant narrative parallels

[cedar skiff]

i think nameless town is just there to further showcase that a pharloom before gms existed

hence it beint accessible only in act 3

the only thing that fucking confuses me is whatever that needolin is

it being right above gms is sure as hell interesting

[frosty gate]

Which one?

The coprse?

[cedar skiff]

yeah that one

[frosty gate]

What of it?

[cedar skiff]

it just looks weird lol

[lethal burrow]

Doesn't the corpse sort of look like a horn beetle from hollow knight that charges at you

[cedar skiff]

ugly thang

[frosty gate]

Small horn

[lethal burrow]

Isn't that dude dead on the ground like 2 cm to the left?

[frosty gate]

I think so

[frosty gate]

Oh i thought you meant the text lmao

[lone folio]

Yeah he's all rockified and stuff

[cedar pagoda]

guys i got a few questions:
why is the void so pissed in silksong, but was more chill in hollow knight
how does the trap for grandmother silk work?
why did hornet lose abilities she used in hollow knight (silk spear and thread storm)?

[grave patio]

Void was always pissed. You just set it free in Silksong so it could attack

[sinful nimbus]

The void is consuming the haunting

Think of void spells

[frosty gate]

The Void just wants to eat GMSilk, but Silk is resisting because Lace is down with her and she doesn't want Lace to die, so the Void is takin the opportunity to just consume all the soul at hand

Or tendril

[sinful nimbus]

Not really void in its base state just seems to want to be left alone

[ornate pier]

Abilities were lost due to the rune cage I think

[frosty gate]

I don't think she lost them, but I think Silk Spear and Thread Storm in Silksong are not the same as in HK

They might be stronger variants

[frosty gate]

Not really, Void is absolutely harmful

But as someone said here, the Void is not malicious

It's opportunistic

[sinful nimbus]

if you get near it yeah

In Silksong its actively messing stuff up because its taking over the haunting

That's not how it normally acts

[grave patio]

That’s a way better theory

[frosty gate]

I don't particularly think that the Void "wants to be left alone"

I don't think the void can want

[sinful nimbus]

I'm anthropomorphizing it a little yeah

[ornate pier]

Isn't it like void is a force of nature and is inclined to attack whatever comes close

[pale narwhal]

it seems most of the void anger in act 3 is a result of GMS's resistance and her threads being all over the kingdom
also hornet tells us herself she was weakened by the rune cage

[pale narwhal]

it wanted a light off badly enough to corrupt the royal retainer in the abyss lighthouse

[grave patio]

Oh yeah,
Cause it got help from Knight and Hornet to defeat the Radiance and Silk respectively.

[ornate pier]

The knight was because of the voidheart

It didn't really Help defeat silk or anything

[frosty gate]

TK is a special case

[ornate pier]

Ultimately gms dies due to sacrificing herself

[frosty gate]

The only clue we have about this is that it probably just went for its soul

[sinful nimbus]

The lighthouse retainer's dialogue implies a dialogue of sorts took place

[grave patio]

I don’t understand HK lore 😅

[pale narwhal]

still managed to get that light off

[pale narwhal]

mossbag's video can help with that. some of that is speculation but its an interpretation that will help understand

[frosty gate]

Yes, we don't know why it wanted it off anyway, we don't even know if it was the voids doing

[grave patio]

Ok

[sinful nimbus]

Its said to be the sea calling to it

I saw the 🚫 and thought powdered was back smh

[frosty gate]

Been a while since I last saw Metal, yeah

Yeah, Mossbag is cool and all, but he has some stuff wrong

[frosty gate]

If you do end up watching a Mossbag video

Take everything with a grain of salt

It is not the truth

It's an interpretation

[pale narwhal]

i mean we can make an educated guess. the light being on stops the void lake below from reaching up. and i dont see why else the retainer would shut it off if not because of the void

[pale narwhal]

i mean i literally said this

[sinful nimbus]

mossbag's as good a starting place as any

everyone gets some stuff wrong

[cedar pagoda]

oh ok thanks

[frosty gate]

I mean yeah, but we would have to think How the void goes up there in the first place

Plus, Void doesn't seem to care much for that Light since we see Void Tendrils in front of WP remains

[frosty gate]

Yeah mb

[silk dirge]

except me

[frosty gate]

If any doubt comes up though, ask here, we can kinda clarify what we actually know vs how Mossbag interprets it

[solemn hinge]

ESPECIALLY you

[pale narwhal]

i mean, the void is everywhere there
i wouldnt be surprised if trace amounts of it are inside t he stone of the spire

[cedar skiff]

i just noticed, second sentinel has those classic hermes esque wings on their head, and the parallel continues with hermes being a psychopomp (someone who leads souls between an under and an upper world) and the sentinels served as guides and protectors for the pilgrims, pretty cool

me at the silksong dubiously intentional mythological refernces function

[pale narwhal]

should we try and find parallels for more ancient gods

[cedar skiff]

https://tenor.com/view/white-people-white-people-dancing-dancing-meme-white-people-when-gif-27164260

[cedar skiff]

im sure theres more subtle ones

theres a few other ones

[pale narwhal]

Flukemarm is Rhea

[frosty gate]

Then why turn off the light specifically if it doesn't stop it from doing anything?

[pale narwhal]

the light does stop it though?
it stills the entire lake below

[frosty gate]

It chills the Tendrils, yes

But it still went up

And killed the retainer

Presumably while it was turned on

[sinful nimbus]

this is my second day on the server idk what vendetta you have against me

[frosty gate]

Silksong made it weird too because Idk why this happens now

[pale narwhal]

(fertile mother goddess)

[cedar skiff]

i always wonder how many of these references are actually intentional but they just keep piling up to the point where i have to go all in on it

[silk dirge]

caught red handed

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but I only started messaging 2 days ago

[lethal burrow]

You should've stopped messaging two days ago

[sinful nimbus]

This community is so unwelcoming I'm out of here

[lethal burrow]

WOOOOO

[frosty gate]

I can't telll how real this interaction is

[fading prawn]

The lore of hk is art

[silk dirge]

fake af lol

[frosty gate]

Oh fuck that's star

[cedar skiff]

i will compose the silksong mythology references doc one of these days it has to be done

[frosty gate]

Absolutely fooled

[silk dirge]

bamboozled

the big gloombeast strikes again

[cedar skiff]

sk lore irony layers transcends comprehension

[timber pond]

True and real

[pale narwhal]

someone has to
and im too busy making a doc about a different game

[cedar skiff]

i just think its cool

it gives more aura

its all about the aurafarming at the end of the day

[timber pond]

I personally think higher beings and pale beings might have a similar relation to Like , God's and titans from Greek myth but that's just me.

[frosty gate]

I would agree, but I don't think Pale Beings are any Higher than regular Higher Beings

[cedar skiff]

gms and the weavers are basically the titans (singular) and the olympian gods anyway

[frosty gate]

But, to help you add something

Wyrms are Titans

[pale narwhal]

you dont have to say and titans
the greek titans are just gods with a title

[frosty gate]

Higher, Pale Included, are Gods

[timber pond]

They are the older stronger gods is my point

[pale narwhal]

again, titans are gods with a title

[timber pond]

Pale beings feel Like Titans

[frosty gate]

Aren't titans just fucking deities beyond Godhood?

[pale narwhal]

not even that
they only got called titans because of a sacreligious act, and most of them are on level with if not weaker than olympian gods

theyre not even the oldest, the incarnate gods are more powerful

[frosty gate]

Literally concepts rather than elemtns or things?

Chronos is fucking Time

[pale narwhal]

nope. they were just refered to as gods until they overthrew their father and he went all "i curse, for this foul act i name you titans"

[pale narwhal]

no hes not actually

[timber pond]

I know, but my point is that pale beings feel like they hold a similar position to what you describe right here with your own words

Pale beings are gods, but are often older and behaviors line up with Greek myth Titans

[cedar skiff]

really the titanomachy goes more in line with the storyline of the first game but if team cherry wasnt fucking around and made proper distinctions between pale and higher we could have auraful stuff

[frosty gate]

Well f me I guess, I can't remember my mythos

[lone folio]

Pale stag my favourite HB

[frosty gate]

I don't think we need distinctions

[cedar skiff]

but they dont just draw from the greeks

[timber pond]

Kek. Who knows, mabye he's like a lesser deity or something.

[frosty gate]

We would first have to confirm the thing being real

[cedar skiff]

everyone yes EVERYONE in sk lore is going to read the epic of gilgamesh to try and connect it to silksong

[upbeat fog]

After the true ending does this confirm that the knight is not fully hollow by the end of the game

[pale narwhal]

Chronos is only time incarnate in the Orphic tradition where hes made a separate frigure from Kronos titan god of agriculture. in this one hes the father of chaos

[frosty gate]

And not the imagination of a Gaylord on acid

[lone folio]

I was joking 😭 pale stag seems to confirm that any creature can be pale

[snow sonnet]

The knight never was truly hollow even by the first game

[pale narwhal]

yes the homoerotic subtext to Gilgamesh and Enkidu's relationship is relevant to Sheo and the Nailsmith

[cedar skiff]

it’s actually accurate because people deny both

[timber pond]

I simply think its real because it would make sense for hunting that creature to be the "Trial" GP and his lover went through to sit upon the throne. Like a contest for who is more worthy, but then they ended up hunting it together and loving eachother by the end instead

[upbeat fog]

I should of specified when I said the end of the game I meant the end of the first game

[pale narwhal]

anyway if anyone wants me to rant about the greek titans ping me in #off-topic and ill get to it after i shower

[frosty gate]

The hunt being real and the start of their love story? Very cool

The Stag being real?

That's a different topic

[lone folio]

Stag is atleast partially real

[timber pond]

It was real in SOME form

Mabye not as it is in his memory

[lone folio]

It was a pale stag and that's all we need to know

Like I doubt it teleports

[frosty gate]

It could've just been a normal Stag

[timber pond]

It was just an albino animal

[lone folio]

That just seems boring

"ELECT ME AS YOUR LEADER I KILLED A DEER"

[frosty gate]

No, he was already a Prince by then

[lone folio]

"My citizens look at how cool I am I killed a deer"

[lethal burrow]

then why would they remember it as pale?

[lone folio]

Pale stags tale could connect to the mythology stuff. I mean think about it there are so many stories of a hero killing a beast

[frosty gate]

Are we questioning why a dude who can't remember the face of his lover would imagine a regular stag being a deity from a tale he heard as a kid?

[lethal burrow]

yes.

forgetting something and remembering something as completely different to how it was are separate things

[frosty gate]

But we can't trust he remembers it properly

[lone folio]

wait where did you get this from?

i dont remember anything of him just hearing about it

[lethal burrow]

I didn't ask if we could trust him. I asked why he would remember it as different.

And furthermore, why would teamer make it pale like what's the intent there? What was the purpose in that?

[lone folio]

his dialogue seems to imply that he killed the stag and became verdanias leader

"Here, the trail of the stag touched pale... We hunted her, felled her, as none before were able...
Proof it became, of our majesty... mark of our divine right..."

[ornate pier]

Imo the hunt is real but the stag was just an albino one or some shit

[frosty gate]

"Fabled first Cloverstag of Verdania's wilds. Commands the grass and leaves to aid its attack."

Fabled

"Myth made real in memory. The creature seemed completely at one with the flora around it. Did it ever truly exist as I have seen it?"

Myth

[safe gorge]

contains spoilers:

||question i have is, you get Rune Rage from first sinner, and says its an deadly forgotten weaver skill, how can pure vessel do something similar to that? is there a connection there or was it copy and paste?||

[frosty gate]

You can remove the spoiler tag, it's a safe channel

[lone folio]

this is the one channel where there is no need to spoiler tag anything

[safe gorge]

oh

[halcyon merlin]

copy and paste probably

why would there be a connection to those 2

pure vessel is just focusing

[safe gorge]

they look extremely similar

it's like almost the exact same attack

[halcyon merlin]

yeah i think the only difference is that rune rage is kinda random on where it appears

[lethal burrow]

pale beings are pretty much super powered albinos anyway

[lone folio]

thats not what i was asking about. i asked about the fact that he heard about the pale stag in a tale as a kid

where did you get that from?

[lethal burrow]

hornet is not informed on the subject of old verdanian folklore

[lethal burrow]

well the first sinner invented making runes out of silk.

and the Weavers were involved in the vessel project..

So make any connections you want there?

[halcyon merlin]

were weavers really involved?

[twin dragon]

It couldve js been pk and his soul bs

[frosty gate]

Fables are usually told to kids

[twin dragon]

like soul runes

[halcyon merlin]

other than making the seal

[twin dragon]

and shit

[halcyon merlin]

and herrarh being a dreamer

[lethal burrow]

yup you can find the seal of binding in the Weaver nest

[twin dragon]

So weaver magic powers were indeed canon after all

[lone folio]

so your saying that everything he says in the memory is a lie

[halcyon merlin]

hmm yeah i think what you said was wrong though

[frosty gate]

I don't see why else would it be called a Myth and a Fable

[halcyon merlin]

like

i dont think they were involved at all with PV being like that

[twin dragon]

They made the seals i think?

[halcyon merlin]

so its just copy and paste!!!11

[twin dragon]

somewhere mentioned

iirc

[frosty gate]

I'm saying the Palestag being real isnt a sure thing

[twin dragon]

palestag better not be a real thing

[lone folio]

i mean if he doesnt remember his own lover then clearly his lover was an imaginary friend (im joking)

[cedar skiff]

its actually this

[halcyon merlin]

true

[pale narwhal]

well they served Herrah and she was involved so probably

[frosty gate]

I can't understand how could he remember a fucking random stag and not his life long lover that he's aching for

[halcyon merlin]

yeah my bad

i meant as like

specifically involved with PV

like his training

which made him strong like that

[frosty gate]

Also, someone said something about it being Pale was relevant or something

Pale things seem to be special? Kinda? Not really?

[lethal burrow]

Well, I don't see why they would make it pale

[lone folio]

also the way the word "fabled" is used seems like its reffering to it as "yeah we think it was THE first stag" extra things about it to make it seem cooler or just misinformation passed down through generations

[frosty gate]

Because Pale is the color of G O D S

The Pale Wyrm

GMS is also Pale

Who knows what else is out there

Pale seems to be related to some important meaning

Control or strength maybe

[lone folio]

why does everyone assume that everything pale is a god

[opaque pier]

Pale menderbug

[frosty gate]

Not everything Pale is a god

Didn't say that

[halcyon merlin]

because so far everything pale we have seen is a god

[frosty gate]

I said Pale seems to be important for some reason

[frosty gate]

Lurker

[lethal burrow]

:/

[halcyon merlin]

i just appeared

[frosty gate]

Pale Lurker I mean

[lethal burrow]

i don't

[halcyon merlin]

is this rune rage??

[halcyon merlin]

ah

[lethal burrow]

Look at the answer I originally gave and rethink your life

[halcyon merlin]

is it actually pale

[twin dragon]

yes but not the rage part

[lone folio]

isnt this statement just saying that pale things are gods though

[halcyon merlin]

what does this even meam

[frosty gate]

Pick a Fandom you have 3 different quotes in your bio dude 😭

[twin dragon]

its a rune

its a fucking rune

[lone folio]

sylphean slugs:

[halcyon merlin]

[twin dragon]

pale ore = god

[frosty gate]

I exaggerate, but I don't mean everything Pale is a god

[halcyon merlin]

clearly

[halcyon merlin]

so it is rune rage

[lethal burrow]

lace is a god?

[twin dragon]

no

[frosty gate]

But Pale things seem to be relevant

[twin dragon]

its a rune

[cedar skiff]

pale rosary necklace = god

[halcyon merlin]

is she considered a pale being

if she was made by gms

[lone folio]

thats a bit far fetched

[halcyon merlin]

with her silk

[lethal burrow]

she is called pale being and pale child

[lone folio]

pale lurker on the other hand

[lethal burrow]

and is pale

[twin dragon]

PALE LURKER IS GOD

2032492325

[halcyon merlin]

i really don't remember it

[frosty gate]

Pale Lurker is so annoying

[twin dragon]

Pale air is also god air

[lethal burrow]

good reason for another play through

[frosty gate]

It's the top 1 reason Pale conversations lead no where

[halcyon merlin]

why is phantom black then hmmm

[twin dragon]

thats why gms rejected phantom

[halcyon merlin]

already doing one but yeah im skipping all text

[halcyon merlin]

true...

[lone folio]

this has gone a bit out of control

[frosty gate]

Wdym

[halcyon merlin]

pale oil

[lethal burrow]

What would you like to talk about then?

[lethal burrow]

pale slugs

[frosty gate]

Oh no, I didn't mean that like in a bad way

[halcyon merlin]

slugs god

[frosty gate]

It's just that the Pale Lurker is a stump

We can make theories about the Pale all day

[cedar skiff]

team cherry uses pale for the sake of aura

[frosty gate]

But then you say "Wtf is Pale Lurker" and everything falls

[cedar skiff]

its why we have 3 variations of worm in the games

[lone folio]

we have went from actually cool lore to.. pale lurker...... it may be my fault for mentioning it but it was for a lil joke

[frosty gate]

Because Lurker has NOTHING RELEVANT TO IT

[craggy smelt]

pale fangirl

[twin dragon]

john pale

[cedar skiff]

neither does pale rosary necklace

you cant even confirm it being made of pale ore

nothing says it is

[halcyon merlin]

pale lurker > drops a key > you can use it to enter godhome > you fight pure vessel > he's pale > pale lurker

[cedar skiff]

checkmate sk lore

[frosty gate]

Oh dw, it's still kinda serious ngl. Pale has a meaning to it, but then Pale Lurker doesn't

[cedar skiff]

also idk i just like the idea that pale is the in universe terminology for divine

[halcyon merlin]

i figured it out

[cedar skiff]

divine child for lace lowkey has fucking aura too

[halcyon merlin]

i mean that could very well be her title too if tc wanted

[craggy smelt]

pale refers to the most powerful divine beings in holloworld, except for when it doesn't

[halcyon merlin]

it would make sense

[twin dragon]

except that most hbs arent pale

😭

[halcyon merlin]

nuh uh!

[lone folio]

thats not quite right either

[halcyon merlin]

here's my counter argument!!

[cedar skiff]

“he”

[halcyon merlin]

there's a gazilion vessels

they are all pale

[twin dragon]

not hbs

[halcyon merlin]

[cedar skiff]

tbh misgendering the vessels is enough for me to completely disregard any opinion you have

[halcyon merlin]

im not going to consicously remember to use the correct pronouns for them

[twin dragon]

i js call the knight THE knight

[cedar skiff]

the biggest telltale sign for not reading dialogue

[twin dragon]

The has too much aura

[halcyon merlin]

💔

[halcyon merlin]

it does

[pale narwhal]

it feels more specific
all the Pale things shine with a Pale light
the radiance isnt pale because its brilliant and blinding
but all the pale things have a specific soft glow

[frosty gate]

Yes

[twin dragon]

the "light" comes from the fact that they flare with soul

they're related to soul

[pale narwhal]

why not? it takes zero effort

[cedar skiff]

i mean divinity is often associated with some sort of glow

[twin dragon]

except white lady the fuck does she even do

[halcyon merlin]

clearly the "higher beings these words are for you alone" disproves that

[halcyon merlin]

because im used to say "he" for everything

[lone folio]

i call the knight he/him since thats just natural to me for some reason. if there is a character of unspecified gender my instinct is he/him, i feel like this has something to do with my language as i have seen other people from my country do the same thing

[cedar skiff]

like generally speaking

[twin dragon]

part hb doesn't mean entirely hb

[halcyon merlin]

😔

[twin dragon]

Like are weavers hbs?

to you

[halcyon merlin]

why would they

[twin dragon]

they can also "focus"

[lone folio]

every single bug in the ancient civilization is an hb

[lean temple]

They are bugs

[halcyon merlin]

can they

[twin dragon]

Yes

bind is silk focus

[halcyon merlin]

no i mean

is it like confirmed all weavers can focus

i thought first sinner was just goated

[twin dragon]

Fs can focus

[pale narwhal]

literally every strand of weaver silk is infused with Soul

[viscid ridge]

First sinner can focus?

[twin dragon]

and widow is a decaying hunk of flesh that cant even user her silk..

[halcyon merlin]

bind

same thing

[frosty gate]

Rune Rage

[halcyon merlin]

she heals herself and has her rune rage skill

[twin dragon]

gms can focus aswell

[halcyon merlin]

well fair enough

[frosty gate]

Binding is just a different way of Focusing

[lethal burrow]

what if I told you pale things were related to soul

[lean temple]

Shamans can focus but what is this convo even about

[cedar skiff]

i wouldnt say widow is decaying

[viscid ridge]

Just cause rune rage looks a lot like the pure vessels attack?

[halcyon merlin]

it wouldn't be too far off i guess

[cedar skiff]

thats very mean to say about a kind old lady

[halcyon merlin]

you're forgetting she can also heal herself

[frosty gate]

No way

[frosty gate]

Not that we know

[viscid ridge]

Yeah but thats a weaver binding technique? Focusing and binding both use soul, but they are different aren't they?

[halcyon merlin]

sorry

im not

[frosty gate]

It's the way that its done thats different

[halcyon merlin]

going into that argument

for the 500th time

focus and binding

[lean temple]

Sorry what?

[frosty gate]

I don't think using Magic is equivalent to focusing

[halcyon merlin]

focusing isn't really the same as manipulating soul no?

would you say soul master/groal is focusing

[lean temple]

They have a spiral focus, they can focus soul

[viscid ridge]

But there is stated in Hollow Knight that shamans can focus tho

From the wispering roots

[lean temple]

They have focusing crests on their heads

[halcyon merlin]

is it

eow

roots

[halcyon merlin]

being honest i have no idea of what is a focusing crest

[lean temple]

Godseekers can focus their thoughts. Idk what y'all are trying to prove here

[halcyon merlin]

clearly silksong and hk lore sucks!!!!!

[frosty gate]

We don't know what that is

[twin dragon]

Focus means a lotta things

[frosty gate]

I mean if you take it as a fact that they can focus suit yourself

[twin dragon]

BUT what focus usually is referred to is the in game healing mechanic

[frosty gate]

But we don't really know that's what it meas

[viscid ridge]

Groal and the soul master has a sort of gem on their head that creates some sort of artificial focus, while shamans, higher beings and godseekers to a degree can do without it

[twin dragon]

basically being part soul

i think

since it restores you when you sniff soul

[viscid ridge]

Or maybe a better way to describe the godseeker masks is some form of the same thing that Soul master and groal does

[twin dragon]

focusing thoughts doesnt really have to do anything with soul

it's probably the stupid ass thing thats boosts hbs in the pantheons

due to worship

or some bs

[lethal burrow]

If somebody focusses and they have a thing on their forehead. It's a focussing crest.

[twin dragon]

idk godseeker lore is weird

[cedar skiff]

am i fucking crazy or is crest just the weaver term for soul

is soul ever dropped in a weaver context

[viscid ridge]

I just bring it up, cause godseekers so has a focus spot in the middle of their masks, which kinda relates to the other ones

[twin dragon]

silk

[lean temple]

Weaver crests are an imprint on your soul, like an identifier of sorts

[twin dragon]

Crest is one's nature

basically

[cedar skiff]

silk isnt actually soul though its just an expression of it

[twin dragon]

it is soul

just woven into strings

its still soul nevertheless

[viscid ridge]

Probably, there seems to be differences, but its not very defined. Cause soul itself has an identity, crests also are a identity, and masks provide an identity. So its all very vauge

[cedar skiff]

yeah it is man ur right

thanks eva for fucking my perception of crests over with just one line

[twin dragon]

you kinda just steal others natures

masks seem to hide natures

instead of embracing them

Like gms has no mask

neither does lace

But pk does

[frosty gate]

Does he?

[twin dragon]

I mean that's a mask

a biological one but a mask still

that one dialogue with hornet n mask maker

kinda implies it

[timber pond]

Its probably like the diffrence between Your respritory system and Digestive system. They probly intersect in function to keep everything running, but have distinct purpose.

[cedar skiff]

“Lady... Incredible... Your nature is so unlike a mortal bugs. Yours is malleable, transitory.”

“Mask Maker: A complex visage, perhaps, yet still to my sight it looks unresolved.
Hornet: If you see a transitional state, it is one I have accepted.”

how fun

[cedar skiff]

oh thats a good way to put it

[timber pond]

Like bro pepole bleed soul in this universe

Everyones blood is white

iff you aint got some virus

[frosty gate]

I want to take this moment to say that Mask Makers are insane while wearing the mask

[timber pond]

Pale beings are like , big blood benders

[frosty gate]

Or just out of it

Which I think it's important

[cedar skiff]

so crests would just be personalised soul

doesnt the knight basically just bind those shaman corpses

i mean its not binding

but its a similar process no?

[timber pond]

Thier "sight" likely makes it hard to work. Imagine being able to see everyone's Perceived identity at once all the time lol

[twin dragon]

They're more so imprints

or things

wtv the fuck witch crest is

[lean temple]

Which is probably why they live isolated from everyone else lol

[timber pond]

He takes thier "Soul" they stored up

[frosty gate]

Not just that, Hornet implies Mask Maker is out of it while making masks

[timber pond]

But unlike snail shamans, mask makers have an acient custom that many recognise it seems

The Courier Bugs coment on this saying that his service is esential

[lean temple]

Seemingly. At least it is known that Mask Makers possess "the Sight"

[timber pond]

Well mabye the comon bug dosent know that, But can recognise the performance of the masks they make

[lean temple]

Yea

I was gonna say "some" bugs know about their sight, but scrapped it

[timber pond]

I think the mask they put on themselves is equivalent to them Drugging themselvs

[frosty gate]

Agreed

[lean temple]

It acts to suppress the Sight so they can actually concentrate on carving

I do think working with masks is what causes them to develop the Sight, which is like an ability to "read masks" like one would read palms.

[frosty gate]

It's not just that

"I had the desire to hear you lucid, Maker, though you may protest."

Lucid implies this dude is not on his right mind while wearing a mask

Perhaps the masks bound them to service?

They seem to only care about masks while wearing theirs

They don't speak much

But once you drop their masks, the spit information

[lean temple]

Perhaps so

[frosty gate]

Mask Makers are

Somehow

Extremely important

For the bigger lore of the world rather than the regular events of the Kingdoms

[lean temple]

It's interesting to ponder. Would the city of steel need a mask maker? Considering Steelhearts and vassals don't seem to wear any.

[honest sun]

can pure vessel beat gms?

[frosty gate]

Perhaps they killed theirs

Mask Makers don't seem to be appointed by people in Kingdoms

But by something grander

[lean temple]

Not really answerable

[twin dragon]

DO NOT

discuss that

its powerscaling

stupid AND boring

unless its zote my king

[lone folio]

Zote mid diffs moss grub

It's a tough match for sure

[silk dirge]

massive moss grub > gms

easily

also apparently the different journal entries for vaultborn depending on when you release them got implemented

[frosty gate]

The fuck

[silk dirge]

they get automatically released in act 3

so the journal entry is different now

[frosty gate]

Is it this one
"These bugs have been driven out of their vault's recesses by Pharloom's black collapse. They are a nuisance, and I have only myself to blame."

[silk dirge]

yes

[lethal burrow]

What's some questions We don't have answers to yet.

[silk dirge]

someone probably needs to test it

but i saw a post saying that got implemented

[silk dirge]

whats up with the memorium crustcrags

[lethal burrow]

huh

[silk dirge]

bobbitwyrm summoning ritual

[frosty gate]

This opens the possibility of the Flies entry being changed

Star's utopic dream

[lethal burrow]

Since when

[mint stratus]

I wonder if there would be enough creatures stored on the memorium, that if the biomes were to be restored to some extent, could be reintroduced

[silk dirge]

last update apparently

[lethal burrow]

Does anybody have a screenshot of the differences?

[silk dirge]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Silksong/comments/1p5fatw/vaultborn_have_a_different_hunters_journal_entry/

[lethal burrow]

slab flies is intentional since it wasn't changed pog

[frosty gate]

Unlikely, but possible probably.
Or at least it would be possible if the breeders of the Memorium weren't dead

[mint stratus]

They’ve been dead for awhile and the creatures and flora seemed to have survived so far?

[proven mural]

so about the cut ending for gms in silksong what if since we know that gms was stuck in the cocoon for so long what if she was in a weakened state or not her final form maybe in a dlc you can fight a void-influenced gms and if you beat her you unlock on a new area with that form of gms from the cut ending its just a theory but it might work

[twin dragon]

gms binds hornet

[arctic cliff]

Guys

[twin dragon]

that's the cut ending

why did it get cut

who the fuck knows

[proven mural]

its just a theory

because gms turns into like a new form yk

[arctic cliff]

It’s confirmed by cut animation

Gms grabs Hornet

[frosty gate]

In a controlled enviroment

I don't think you can reintroduce them to real nature

[proven mural]

that doesnt disprove my thing though

[silk dirge]

probably didnt want an ending where you straight up lost

[frosty gate]

Plus, Verdania is still dead

[arctic cliff]

It’s not similar to the other TC posts

[silk dirge]

notice all the hk endings are like neutral at the very least

[spark valve]

I mean the non vh endings are pretty not neutral in the long run

[silk dirge]

yeah but theres none where you straight up like

[midnight agate]

Where do I post theories about things that aren't related to hallownest or pharloom (or are equally related to both but focus mostly on something else)

[silk dirge]

lose

[arctic cliff]

Twisted line from Hamlet

[lethal burrow]

I don't think there's really anything else to be found out about the story

[muted lantern]

So is the gourmand just like a wild animal? His needolin dialogue makes it seem so.

[sinful nimbus]

He's just living in the moment

Pure bliss

[sinful nimbus]

This channel functions as the all encompassing lore channel too

[midnight agate]

Oh bet

[wise sand]

here

the hk channel is for people stuck in 2024

[midnight agate]

Fair enough

Here's some random city of steel ideas because the entire theory can't really fit in the picture (also this isn't finished yet)

Graphic design is my passion

[craggy smelt]

...bright...

[lethal burrow]

Why is it carrot color?

[midnight agate]

Idk

[mild adder]

Carrotsong

[midnight agate]

City of carrot

[dire sinew]

just got sister of the void ending and like wtf. why is tk there

is it because hornet is now void and now under tk's control? is tk just plot armor

[muted lantern]

Well, they are in the void after the 2 main endings of the first game, they showed up to help their sister.

to save her from the void

[dire sinew]

how did tk know hornet was there

[sinful nimbus]

sensed a disturbance in the void or something

[dire sinew]

what was that talk about retconning that i saw like a month ago

[dusky flume]

lore

[dire sinew]

is it the 3 queens thing

[muted lantern]

well, with the void heart, the void is united under the bearers will. The whole void is basically under their control now. though they cant control the tendrils entirely, i see them as like a digestive system that acts involuntarily. Once the delicate flower ran out and hornet got touched directly by the void, ghost probably sensed her presence when the flower masked it before.

[muted lantern]

People generally think herrah wasnt originally intended to be a weaver

[sinful nimbus]

There's a few retcons 3Q is among them yeah

[muted lantern]

due to her design and some other text in the game

[dire sinew]

what was the deal with 3q in hollow knight again

[sinful nimbus]

There wasn't one

[dire sinew]

no deal?

[muted lantern]

It was a aspect of hornets story that was never implemented in the first game, though even back then the devs said it might still be the case. but it's clearly implemented differently

[dire sinew]

i thought that we somehow came to the consensus it wasnt true

[sinful nimbus]

Hive is isolationist and Hornet's fighting style isn't really bee-like yeah

Its technically possible its just kinda 🥴

[dire sinew]

there are other ones?

they changed the shadow creeper eye texture for one

[sinful nimbus]

Well they aren't infected in SS

[unique canopy]

Hornet's backstory, which wasn't actually put in the game itself and was only in her character concepts, was that she was born to Herrah, raised by White Lady, and trained by Vespa (or vice versa I forget), both to explain her name (Hornet from the bees) and to emphasize her as an allegorical representative of Hallownest as a collective whole instead of just one tribe or kingdom. The end result that was canonized in Silksong is that she was raised partly by the Weavers and partly by the Hive, trained by the Hive, and only showed up to the Pale Court after.

[sinful nimbus]

The only real other bad retcon is the Lifeblood infection thing imo

And TK needing to beat up void tendrils

[inner torrent]

ok guys I have a theory

What if herrah is void

[dire sinew]

i thought it was kinda funny how in hollow knight tk taking 1 damage destroys the flower but in silksong u can get beaten up by lace and nothing happens

[dire sinew]

can u reeducate me on this too :cute emoji:

[inner torrent]

That's because fayforn wings are op, they keep the flower from any damage

[sinful nimbus]

Lifeblood uh infects things now

Didn't do that in HK even though Hornet says it did

The reason I dislike it is because it kinda takes the Lifeblood lore in a less interesting direction since we already have the Infection/Haunting and also it makes Hornet complacent in its spread in the Wormways

[inner torrent]

Actually

I think we always knew the lifeblood could infect bugs

[sinful nimbus]

From where

[inner torrent]

Although, I don't see how hornet would be complacent of the spread of it in worm ways, considering that is completely dependant of time not in her actions

[sinful nimbus]

She never really bothers to warn Tylenol and even goes so far as to help him with his experiments

[inner torrent]

When we find the tombstone of Joni we discover something, she is completely made of lifeblood in her insides

[sinful nimbus]

We don't discover that

[inner torrent]

Yes?

[sinful nimbus]

We discover that she has a magic artifact that transforms your insides into lifeblood which is uh different from Lifeblood infecting stuff naturally

[inner torrent]

Not the Joni's charm

Joni's corpse

[sinful nimbus]

Not really sure what you're talking about she's just surrounded by Lifeblood

[unique canopy]

In HK it infected and altered the fluids of the body, but not the physical structure like we see in the Wormways creatures.

[inner torrent]

Huh, I thought there were vines connected to her

[unique canopy]

Also no lifeblood zombies in HK like Zango

[inner torrent]

I mean, if your whole insides are made of lifeblood I doubt that would be good for you in any way

[tepid mountain]

I don’t even understand why TC made Hornet talk about knowing that the lifeblood infects things. Would make so much more sense if she didn’t know, better explaining why she helps with the experiments in the first place.

Her knowing doesn’t really add anything.

[inner torrent]

I mean

You can just, not do it

[unique canopy]

Because it's not described as a negative in HK. It's taboo but we're never explicitly told the reason for it, there's some underlying drug abuse allegory, but for the most part the actual usage of lifeblood is universally good in HK.

[tepid mountain]

But you CAN do it, which means Hornet canonically does it.

[inner torrent]

I mean, if it's taboo I think it's for a reason.
And technically it remains the same in silksong

Lifeblood itself is not bad, it's overuse is, planting it everywhere is just the same as planting any other plant species where it doesn't belong

[subtle plaza]

Arent things that are a taboo percieved as inherently bad?

[sinful nimbus]

Saying Lifeblood is taboo is like saying dipping your face in acid is "a bit of a taboo" as Salubra puts it

[inner torrent]

That's called, invasive species

[lethal burrow]

hornet canonically walks back-and-forth for 20 hours

[sinful nimbus]

Taboos are social customs

[inner torrent]

Lifeblood is not bad itself

[tepid mountain]

Not comparable.

[inner torrent]

Bugs are just dumb

Xolotl is basically a crazy scientist

[sinful nimbus]

This quest and its associated dialogue isn't canon because I said so

[inner torrent]

Do you don't think xolotl is a crazy scientist?

He is basically doing the same the conductors did with silk

You just shouldn't put stuff in your body without experimenting with it first

[sinful nimbus]

I don't know where the idea that he wouldn't listen to reason comes from

[inner torrent]

Even the soul scholars knew that

[sinful nimbus]

It also doesn't change the fact that Hornet literally helps him

[lethal burrow]

Come on coward stand by your words and be specific next time

[sinful nimbus]

He does experiment with it

[lethal burrow]

don't make statements if you don't believe in them

[inner torrent]

Because he literally doesn't?

Wow what

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah because Hornet never tries reasoning with him in the first place

Go read the dialogue its on the wiki

[inner torrent]

This is just a lore discussion guy calm down

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not upset

[lethal burrow]

you will never convince star of anything they're just gonna hate the game in discriminately. Their mind is stuck in cement

[lethal burrow]

You seem pretty upset right now

[sinful nimbus]

I like Silksong this is just a 🥴 aspect

[lethal burrow]

I doubt you

[inner torrent]

Can we please just don't be mean to each other 👉👈

[floral pecan]

[sinful nimbus]

Also even if I didn't like Silksong that wouldn't be an excuse to not engage with the ideas

Just kinda a blatant insult

[unique canopy]

Personally I have no problem with Hornet going "eh, not my problem if it helps me" -> "okay shit now it is my problem" in post-game DLC
...if it wasn't for the fact that it would just be a repeat of act 3 "okay shit this void crap is my fault and I need to deal with it god dammit."

[sinful nimbus]

We also don't have post-game DLC atm

[inner torrent]

Highly unlikely! The grey and barren soil of the mainland could never produce something as singular as this, and that is undisputable fact. Plasmium was first discovered by my master at the farthest edge of Pharloom, hidden deep in salt-stricken waters. I brought it to these caves under her direction, to study how it flourishes in a foreign place.

Now! To my work I must return! Unless you have further interest in my precious Plasmium, or chance upon my truant assistant, kindly leave me in peace!

[tepid mountain]

But she didn’t even know helping Axalotl would benefit her.

[inner torrent]

Let's accept it, he is a bigot

[sinful nimbus]

And then hornet gives up and starts helping him yes

She's complicit

[inner torrent]

If you want to get out of the hole stop shovelling first

I mean, Ig she could have killed him, but I don't think that would have done much

[sinful nimbus]

She never tries to inform him of the negative side affects

That's like the most basic thing she could do along with not helping him

[inner torrent]

He doesn't even believes she has seen lifeblood

[sinful nimbus]

So?

[inner torrent]

So she knows nothing by her point of view

[lethal burrow]

If I wanted to blatantly insult you, I would just blatantly insult you

[sinful nimbus]

"This stuff is called uranium"
"Nope I discovered it myself go help me gather it"
"OK fine whatever"

[inner torrent]

"Oh I actually know about this, I may recommend be careful as"
"no you didn't shut up"

[lethal burrow]

I don't have enough respect to not insult you to your face

[inner torrent]

Also like, lifeblood seems to be very easy to manage

Specially as unlike the haunting and the infection

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet doesn't manage it

[lethal burrow]

@sinful nimbus did miquella plan for mogh to kidnap him

[inner torrent]

The, uh... Expansion? Doesn't have a mind behind

[sinful nimbus]

"Pharloom shall quickly learn the curse of this substance"

I'm not familiar with Elden Ring lore sorry

[inner torrent]

Is really animalistic in nature, and that makes it easy to deal with, just don't consume it and everything will be fine

[inner torrent]

I mean yeah, there's not much she can do tho

[tepid mountain]

She could not help him.

[sinful nimbus]

Animals can't do that

[inner torrent]

She doesn't have a giant firethrower to burn it all

[inner torrent]

Cordyceps

[sinful nimbus]

Me dumping a bunch of plastic into the ocean but its OK because the turtles can just not consume it

[lethal burrow]

https://tenor.com/view/auburn-basketball-auburn-charles-barkley-charles-barkley-gif-13532820411571798780

[inner torrent]

Tongue eating parasytes

[sinful nimbus]

So its not easy to manage

[lethal burrow]

Hornet never plants anything

[inner torrent]

Most like seeing a big company throw plastics to the ocean and not doing anything

[lethal burrow]

She only extracts it

[inner torrent]

Kinda what most of us do

[lethal burrow]

If anything, she's removing it from their environment

[sinful nimbus]

Its seeing one dude littering in a pond and not saying anything and even helping him

[inner torrent]

Yep, it's basically the same as using plastic bags

Again, she did try, but he is clearly not approachable

[sinful nimbus]

She doesn't try

Go read the dialogue

[inner torrent]

I literally showed it to you

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah but you didn't read it

[inner torrent]

"If you're not interested in helping me, shut up and go"

[sinful nimbus]

She never informs him of the adverse side effects of Lifeblood

[inner torrent]

That wouldn't do anything

[sinful nimbus]

And then she helps him

That's bad

[inner torrent]

You need to know when your throwing rocks to the air

[sinful nimbus]

Why not

[inner torrent]

Because he doesn't believes her

[sinful nimbus]

That's not an excuse to throw in the towel and help him

[inner torrent]

The best she could have done was ending his pain soon

Ig

[inner torrent]

It kinda is? You have to put yourself before others

[sinful nimbus]

What

[inner torrent]

That's basic mental health

[sinful nimbus]

No its not

[inner torrent]

If doing something won't bring nothing good neither to you nor to others don't do it

[unique canopy]

Hornet's character arc at the end of act 2 and throughout act 3 is literally all about not doing this

[inner torrent]

She had something to do with the void and silk tho

[sinful nimbus]

You kinda made up the detail that Tylenol isn't open to reason

[inner torrent]

Lifeblood is completely pharloom's own problem

[sinful nimbus]

She has nothing to do with the haunting no

She's just another victim

[inner torrent]

She is a weaver

[unique canopy]

To the extent where you can go to one of the edges of Pharloom in act 3 and she'll go "well my mission is done and I have no personal risk if I leave, but I don't want to because I should help the people harmed by the void I helped summon"

[tepid mountain]

But she’s not GMS.

[inner torrent]

She has silk, she has the weapons to take it on.
And the void is directly part of her dault

But with lifeblood, what can she do?

[tepid mountain]

Not help the scientist that is foolishly experimenting with it.

[inner torrent]

Open a construction company to cover up the worm ways like pale king did?

[sinful nimbus]

Not be complicit in the destruction of an ecosystem

[inner torrent]

There's no time for that

[sinful nimbus]

Its literally as simple as informing the dude of the risks and then pissing off

[inner torrent]

Again she doesn't have nothing to do with the lifeblood expansion

The lifeblood seed was already planted

And we see it's impossible to take it off by brute force

Wait

SHE DID ADVICE HIM

Sir, you are in a disturbing state. This substance sprouts from within your shell. Time will see it consume you entirely. Would you seek aid?
No... No... Assistant... you are confused. A wonderful thing, we become. The Plasmium, our great research... We have progressed.
The research must continue. Soon... I shall become a source.

SHE LITERALLY OFFERED HELP

[unique canopy]

That's only in act 3

[inner torrent]

Yeah? When there is a problem to deal with

[sinful nimbus]

She knows about the problem beforehand and does nothing

[sinful nimbus]

She helps with his experiments

Even after he becomes plasmified 🥴

[inner torrent]

Also

Have you considered hornet can decline?

And like, you can pass the game without accepting his wish

[sinful nimbus]

"This quest and all the associated dialogue isn't canon because I said so"

Good argument

[inner torrent]

It's like saying hornet is bad for not helping the huntress

Wow hornet, you killed a mother that's fucked up

[lethal burrow]

ah star, classic strawmaning.

Gotta love it when you're up to your old tricks

[sinful nimbus]

How is that a strawman

[inner torrent]

Wow hornet, you let defenseless creatures all around pharloom trapped and did nothing to help them, that's fucked up

[sinful nimbus]

The fact that Hornet can decline is irrelevant to the fact that this is canon

[lethal burrow]

Do you know what a strawman is?

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[inner torrent]

This is not canon tho?

I mean it is

But also not doing it is canon

Every option in silksong is canon

[frigid belfry]

". In rhetoric, a strawman is the misrepresentation of an opponent's argument to make it easier to attack."

[inner torrent]

And the three endings are too

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet can canonically be complicit in the destruction of an ecosystem and that reflects very badly on her character

[frigid belfry]

i wouldnt say she was complicit, but a bit too passive

[inner torrent]

Again that's not her fault

She can be complicit of the destruction of a man

[sinful nimbus]

But she is complicit in it

[frigid belfry]

she did warn zylotol that plasmium was dangerous and not that great, but its not on her to actively stop him

[inner torrent]

But the lifeblood was already planted before she got ther

[sinful nimbus]

So

She still helps him knowing he's only going to use it for messed up things

[sinful nimbus]

She doesn't warn him

[inner torrent]

Ig the best she could have done was killing him just in case he tried to plant more lifeblood

[sinful nimbus]

She says "I've seen this before"

[inner torrent]

But he isn't the type to get his hands dirty as he is always in seek of assistants, so I think it wasn't that necessary

[lethal burrow]

bingo

[sinful nimbus]

I didn't misrepresent anything

[unique canopy]

The only explanation that doesn't make her look selfish is that she takes his word at face value that it isn't the same lifeblood she saw in Hallownest until act 3 makes it clear it was all along, but that still makes her naive and probably dumb.

[inner torrent]

Neither did i

I just mentioned there are other conditions to consider

[fathom hill]

we having the lifeblood discussion again

[sinful nimbus]

Which is irrelevant

[lethal burrow]

there isn't room for nuanced discussion of actions and morality in this channel. only star saying the game is bad

[sinful nimbus]

I didn't say the game was bad

But the games bad

[inner torrent]

Or that she just expected him to be not that dumb

[sinful nimbus]

I hate Silksong its the worst game I have 100 hours in

[lethal burrow]

[lethal burrow]

It's your version of League of Legends

[inner torrent]

I mean be for real, there is no such thing as an "Absolute medicines"

Medicines are poisons

And poisons are medicine, there is a reason in old times the word for one was the word for the other

[unique canopy]

But given Hornet's character arc through the game it's still pretty obvious that she was selfishly only considering the possible reward and its ability to help her in her own personal mission and didn't consider the consequences until her character development kicked in and she decided to start reaping what she sowed.

[inner torrent]

True ig

[fathom hill]

hornet literally goes through an evolution between the acts, act 1-2 hornet doesnt give a shit abt pharloom by that point

this is clear since we in act3 the dialogue is different

[sinful nimbus]

Which is kinda crazy character assassination icl

[lethal burrow]

Now we're cooking with gas

[lethal burrow]

Shut up

[fathom hill]

like

[inner torrent]

It isn't

Hornet isn't even a bug from pharloom

[fathom hill]

hornet coming to care abt pharloom is like a whole ass arc for her

[inner torrent]

She literally was kidnapped

[fathom hill]

star have you played the game

[inner torrent]

Also can we talk about her mental health?

She has been passing her whole life taking care of a whole kingdom about to collapse

[lethal burrow]

they allegedly have 100 hours

[inner torrent]

Why does she have to take care of another

[fathom hill]

how

master ragebaiter dawg

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet being apathetic and evil is character assassination yes

[fathom hill]

master baiter if you will

[lethal burrow]

presumably by typing on the keyboard that they have that many

[sinful nimbus]

She also still chooses to help him in Act 3 though

[fathom hill]

[inner torrent]

She is a person too, why don't blame xolotl for being a fake scientist

[lethal burrow]

By that point it's too late so she might as well get whatever benefit she can since the result won't change either way

[inner torrent]

She is literally a hunter from deepnest??? Trained by VESPA

[sinful nimbus]

HK fans learn you can critique something you enjoy

[inner torrent]

Daughter of the PALE KING???

[sinful nimbus]

Yea?

[inner torrent]

She doesn't have very good examples

[lethal burrow]

star hates red memory so I don't think you're gonna get much by going down this route

[fathom hill]

but you dont enjoy ss

you literally say it every other day

[frigid belfry]

hornet is void, the knight is pure, the pale king is the hollow knight, the theme of the game is nothing and hornet is horribly written with zero character dvelopment, hornet cannot be a flawed character because flaw = bad, i have 2 songillion hours on this game

[sinful nimbus]

Whatever you say

[fathom hill]

its ur words

[lethal burrow]

Still lower quality bait than stars output

[inner torrent]

Let's follow vespa's example.
By her phylosophy it's pointless to go against nature, so to her it wouldn't have a point to go against gms or against lifeblood

[frigid belfry]

cant live up to the goat

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet wasn't apathetic in the first game neither were any of her examples (Not that Vespa was involved in her backstory in the first game)

[inner torrent]

Or herrah's example, queen of deepnest, she would probably have killed zolotol to avoid him from doing dumb stuff to the environment

[sinful nimbus]

You know I'm being facetious right

[fathom hill]

?? she was though

she also goes through an arc in the first game

[sinful nimbus]

"Silksong is bad" is literally the most obvious joke in the world

[fathom hill]

she bonds with the knight

its like her whole thing

[tepid mountain]

I feel like dismissing legit criticism of the main character of the game as “they just hate the game,” isn’t very productive.

[frigid belfry]

if hornet killed zyolotol im convinced he wouldve argued that hornet is evil

[inner torrent]

The literally first interaction with hornet is she in front of the corpse of one of her siblings SHE KILLED, and aiming for her other sibling

[fathom hill]

[inner torrent]

True

[sinful nimbus]

I'm not opposed to her having an arc but her being cartoonishly apathetic is bizarre writing

[frigid belfry]

zylotol wouldve continued researching and messing with plasmium no matter what hornet says

[fathom hill]

wym

[lethal burrow]

To someone who is blind, there is no such thing as light I suppose....

[lean osprey]

shes like unwaveringly diligent isnt that the opposite of apathy

[lethal burrow]

Maybe it's you that sucks at interpreting things

[sinful nimbus]

She's killing the vessels for the greater good of the kingdom not for her own selfish desires

[lethal burrow]

Maybe it's that you're really really bad at it

[fathom hill]

shes both not apathetic, but at the same time cartoonishly apathetic?

am i reading wrong

anyways the lifeblood thing

[inner torrent]

The other examples are white lady and pale king
White lady: Reproduce with him or smth
Pale king: Bind gms and take care of everything with your haunting, but since your cool it's okay

[frigid belfry]

schrodingers song

[sinful nimbus]

She's cartoonishly apathetic when it comes to the lifeblood fiasco

She's fine in like 99% of the other cases

[lethal burrow]

she doesn't care so much that she goes through the effort of helping get rid of it before it fully grows

[sinful nimbus]

She doesn't do that

[fathom hill]

it makes sense for hornet to not care abt the consequences of it, since she will be gone anyways. Its through the game she comes to learn to care about pharloom and its people, by the point of act3 though its quite late for her to do anything abt the infected wormways

[lethal burrow]

It's literally the first thing she does they even give you a unique tool. Did you do the quest line?

You should really do it if you're gonna talk about it because I don't think you did

[inner torrent]

Yep that's true

[fathom hill]

it makes sense she would do it in act 1 and 2

[sinful nimbus]

As part of the scientists plan who's entire goal is to spread lifeblood all around the wormways

[inner torrent]

Also, I think we have to consider about lifeblood rights

[fathom hill]

you could argue its her seeing the effects of plasmium by that point, and thats why she is worried but yknow

[lethal burrow]

This is what you get for only looking at the text on the wiki and not actually doing the quest line in the game

[fathom hill]

technically she knew what would happen, she just didnt care yet

[blissful harbor]

she’s actively aiding the dudes research

[inner torrent]

Lifeblood is animalistic, it's not a planned infection/haunting to overtake a kingdom, is just nature making it's course

[lethal burrow]

Does that contradict what I said?

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[fathom hill]

hornet does draw a comparison though

[inner torrent]

Who gives right to go around killing lifeblood? Who says that's the right thing to do?

[sinful nimbus]

It still overall helps the spread of lifeblood

[unique canopy]

Even in HK she admits she's cold and her main soft spot is her mom. Her desire to help the Knight amounted to realizing it was possible to sever Radiance completely and stop the Infection for good, which was still self-interest. Being utilitarian to the immediate concerns of common bugs in a foreign land when she has bigger problems to deal with, especially when she realizes early on that said problems are caused by a higher being, isn't character assassination.

[fathom hill]

though she also admits she may be seeing connections where there isnt

[inner torrent]

Okay and why that's bad?

Because it's probably very beneficial to the lifeblood

[sinful nimbus]

This is an absurdly out of touch thing to say

You know we try to remove invasive species irl right

[lethal burrow]

I swear, star sniffed some vaporized gnome blood and got super high because they're not making any sense whatsoever.

[inner torrent]

I'm just saying between Blue fungus and a crazy scientist I would probably side with the fungus

Is kinda the smartest of the two

[lean osprey]

if i was hornet id probably stop giving af after the 8000th thing goes wrong too tbh

[unique canopy]

Hornet herself literally describes why the spread of lifeblood is bad

[sinful nimbus]

The scientist is spreading the lifeblood its not a choice between the two what

[inner torrent]

No, it describes why it was bad to deepnest

[fathom hill]

lmao that too

hornet has other things on mind rn

[lethal burrow]

Why do you think it's such a heinous horrible writing mistake if she's apathetic anyway

[fathom hill]

even by act 3, where she does care

[inner torrent]

Is a roach evil for eating a pilgrim?

[sinful nimbus]

Its hard to empathize with an evil character which the game expects you to like

[fathom hill]

apparently she's both not apathetic and yes

[sinful nimbus]

This isn't about Lifeblood being evil its about it being harmful to the surrounding ecosystem

[fathom hill]

like

[blissful harbor]

you can see for yourself why it’s bad

[inner torrent]

Ok pharloom is very harmful to the surrounding ecosystem

[fathom hill]

me when character cares abt some things more than others

[lethal burrow]

star... did you forget what nuance is?

[fathom hill]

character assassination or something

[inner torrent]

The citadel kinda destroyed 3 very important ecosystems

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah the Citadel is bad that's the entire point

[inner torrent]

Should she destroy the citadel then like in the Queen Weaver ending?

[sinful nimbus]

She doesn't destroy it in the weaver queen ending she takes control over it and performs the same actions

The Citadel stops working after Snared Silk and yes that's the right thing to do

[lean osprey]

if i was in a situation where a kingdom was being torn apart by an ancient eldritch force right after being in the thrall of an otherworldly god and someone asked me to deal with an invasive species problem id probably kill them

[sinful nimbus]

Its not a nuanced subject

[lean osprey]

shes acting like a realistic character tbh

[inner torrent]

So killing Sherma ok then

[lethal burrow]

Don't feed the trolls

[sinful nimbus]

Introducing invasive species to ecosystems being bad is a very straightforward take

[lethal burrow]

Don't feed the trolls

[lean osprey]

and not some outrageously altruistic monolith

[sinful nimbus]

What?

Sherma isn't polluting anything

Also no one advocated for murder at all this is a bizarre argument

[inner torrent]

He supports the citadel working views during the first act

That's kinda enabling them

[lethal burrow]

Think for a moment that you're not correct and maybe you'll learn something you didn't know before

[blissful harbor]

who knew propaganda works

[fathom hill]

sherma takes part of the system he's in and is spreading the pilgrimage to fellow bugs

[sinful nimbus]

He's a cog in the machine of an evil system

[inner torrent]

Like hornet

[sinful nimbus]

You should focus on the system instead of the cogs that's why we don't murder everyone who goes to a Walmart

[sinful nimbus]

No Hornet isn't part of any system

Tylenol is one actor who she decides to help

[inner torrent]

She doesn't help them, again

[sinful nimbus]

He's also a complete stranger

[lethal burrow]

she's part of the life blood system. You hate so much and want to remove from the game because you hate the game and you think hornet is evil and therefore a bad character because the game is horribly written according to you and you're always right and everyone else is stupid according to you and the game is bad.

Allegedly

[fathom hill]

the comparison kind of falls when you consider hornet to be an outsider ig

[inner torrent]

She helps zolotl to self destruct but she never helps lifeblood to spread

[fathom hill]

Hornets whole thing is that she also does stuff that arent like urgent

[inner torrent]

She just doesn't have the tools to stop it

[fathom hill]

like playing dice, or donating

[inner torrent]

And she has more important stuff to do