sk-lore

[lone folio]

That's excatly what they want. It's all manipulation

[viscid ridge]

They never wanted to do it, but saw no other means to try and stop the radiance from mind controlling all of hallownest

[stray fog]

Then just don't do that /j

(jokes aside, I don't want to debate the morality of this)

[lone folio]

Grimm litterly calls the knight the: "perfect tool to prolong the heart of Grimm."

[twin dragon]

grimm isn't a being on its own

he's just the nightmare heart taken form

[viscid ridge]

The act itself is evil, but it had good intentions. Thats why both of them are not just black and white evil or good

[twin dragon]

Depends on your view

if the means justify their goal, then it might seem moral

[stray fog]

Kill a thousand babies to save a thousand citizens is not morally good imo

[twin dragon]

although at the end of the day, they were unsuccesful, and it didn't really make the situation any better

[stray fog]

(Im heavily assuming the number of deaths on each side)

[twin dragon]

so it makes it worse

[misty yacht]

too bad the Hollow Knight was an fake Idgaf'er

[viscid ridge]

Thats fair, but it would also not be morally good for the rulers to let all their citizens die and do nothing to stop it.

[lone folio]

He is also basically the entire troupe

"I know you creature, and the form time shall bring. You may be all and one, clan and master, but this land shall never bear so foreign a king." -white lady talking to the fully fed Grimm child

[stray fog]

The troupe members might be like nymm

[viscid ridge]

Grimm has a lot of similarities to the Hollow knight, also being a god trapped inside a vessel

[misty yacht]

well thats just racist imo

[stray fog]

How does the white lady know about fucking everything bro

The grimm troupe, the steel masters, the everbloom

[twin dragon]

Brumm has a will of his own

[twin dragon]

fucking

inforoots

or she has cable idfk

[stray fog]

My interpretation of this js that the troupe members are physically different bugs that joined the troupe, but the nightmare heart controls them through their masks

[viscid ridge]

My guess is higher beings know more about the state of the world than common bugs. We know they have a sort of world sense ability, like the one the Hollow knight has, and we also see in Silksong that they knew of the Pale Kings existence, even if their kingdoms are so far apart

So maybe higher beings have a list of gods that they know of

[stray fog]

Higher being Facebook

[twin dragon]

This MIGHT be true, brumm is acting completely oblivious to everything if you decide to kick the troupe

and he's unmasked

given what we know of masks it makes sense

though idk how he managed to express a will of his own even when masked

[lone folio]

Yeah but he is still the clan itself

[twin dragon]

before kicking the troupe

[lone folio]

He has the nightmare heart inside of himself which mostly controls the bugs in the troupe even if they have some will of their own

Brumm probably had one of those ebay shellwood masks instead of a pale ore mask

This is why you buy the most high quality masks because otherwise your cult will fail quicker

[viscid ridge]

My guess is maybe he was in the troupe for so long that he started gaining a bit of sentience, so maybe its been so long the magic in the mask started to fade. Its very strange

[visual glacier]

Why is it grimm troupe discussion in sk lore

[twin dragon]

its related to masks

and masks are prominent in skong

[visual glacier]

Ohh

I see

[stray fog]

The original discussion was about which higher beings are not assholes

The nightmare heart was being discussed as a candidate for that

[stray fog]

Its the third least evil imo

[frosty gate]

I mean, we don't even know what it does do we?

It is less of an asshole than others tho

[potent scroll]

I don't think any of the higher beings are bad

But also not good

The radiance just didn't want to be forgotten

[jovial nexus]

I wonder what creatures in Silksong classify as higher beings (excluding GMS)

[stray fog]

The weaver queen probably

[potent scroll]

The pale king did not want to lose his kingdom

And the nightmare heart didn't want to die

[terse warren]

Mhhhh

1. Rad
2. GMS
3. PK & WL
4. Nightmare Heart
5. LoS
6. Unn

You could actually argue WL is a bit more evil for stealing QG

[stray fog]

Exactly the list I had in mind

Radiance and gms have to be swapped

Where would the weaver queen lie in this list (this is probably gonna be purely speculation)

[robust wagon]

Bro we know nothing about weaver queen

(Also what's LoS)

[stray fog]

Lord of shades

[terse warren]

??

GMS got forced to sleep and her Silk was taken from her for millennia I think she has a reason to be angry

Radiance could've made people remember her without making it a deadly infection

GMS however had to keep the bugs Haunted or they'd just put her to sleep again

[terse warren]

No damn clue probably either above GMS or above Rad

[stray fog]

Forgot about that part

[gilded spire]

btw, what event caused the haunting to begin?

weavers leaving pharloom?

[terse warren]

No the Weavers died

And the conductors ruled for generations

GMS just began waking up at a certain point

It's not explained why

[gilded spire]

Damn it troubles me a lot

[unique canopy]

Silk experiments had been so widespread and were going on for so long that everyone in Pharloom had silk inside them, even the skarrs. The Haunting controls them through that silk.

[stray fog]

There was only one architect and one conductor left

So the system was deteriorating

[terse warren]

Whenever an architect dies a new one is made but everyone was too busy being dead

There was only one conductor left cuz y'know

The Haunting

Kinda killed em

[stray fog]

Oh

[terse warren]

The Haunting is recent yes but it didn't begin yesterday

[stray fog]

So it was the other way around

[terse warren]

I assume?

I see no reason for them to start dying otherwise

[gilded spire]

Huh? Okay I’m not so sure about that - what’s up with all the pilgrims then? If they had silk injected into them then they had to be at Citadel at certain point. What’s the point of the pilgrimage then, were they yeeted out of the Citadel?

[terse warren]

No clue

There's probably some lore that talks about it

But

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[gilded spire]

I gotta look into dialogues but I’m fairly certain haunting is simply an ability of the pale being

[unique canopy]

Not just physically putting silk in them, although that was a major part. The air and water being permeated with silk is what caused it to develop in everyone else, including pilgrims who hadn't been to the Citadel, and non-Citadel bugs like skarrs.

"In the air. The water. Everywhere. Inside their shells. Twisted inside. Guts. Tightest around heart. Pulsing rhythm. Sick. Alive. Dead? Something worse. Deeper. Must look deeper."

[gilded spire]

Source of the dialogue pls?

also thanks that explains a lot

[unique canopy]

Marrow lore tablet

[stray fog]

What if they inherited it somehow (idk if that's possible)

[terse warren]

No, Caretaker explicitly says that GMS is able to perform the Haunting due to the Silk seeped deep within the shells of bugs either through it being forced in from Whiteward or it getting passed down from Whiteward

[terse warren]

Yeah the thing is from who

[stray fog]

Whoever the first generation of microplastic holders were

[unique canopy]

Also, dialogue between Hornet and the Caretaker:

H: In the ward down below, I saw it clear, the hollowed husks, and the many torturous implements... machines to instill a bug with thread, that would see their life extended.
C: Aye! That's it, in part! But there's more scale to it than all that. Just think of'em greedily shoving the Silk into their shells, the madness that overcame them, eternal life for mortal bugs! Then think on how long it's all gone on...
H: ...The children born of them, and all the pilgrims after... The Silk has seeded deep into this kingdom's shells, generations deep...
H: No wonder Pharloom's bugs proved such easy prey for that haunted thread. It had only to seek for itself to reach them.
Seems to imply it used to be common for Citadel residents to return to their homes after a pilgrimage, and their children would become new pilgrims. The Haunting brought all the pilgrims into Citadel until all the outlying villages were depopulated (like Garmond's).

Make a pilgrimage -> become part of the choir for X number of years -> get rotated out by a batch of new pilgrims -> return home until the next one

[stray fog]

Real life corporate slavery lore

[twin dragon]

Not really, it is stated that gms's threads use the threads inside the pilgrims as guidance, not directly infected by them

[wise sand]

Still not a reason to kill people + there was clearly a reason they sealed her in the first place

[lusty tree]

yeah she used the silk that the weavers produced to keep herself alive thats why she was sealed

[wise sand]

Also she lowkey had the opportunity to fix stuff wrong with the citadel via the haunting but she kinda just used it to be evil

[desert cloak]

what was the original purpose of the threefold melody? an elaborate quest for "chosen" pilgrims only to be bound by GMS?

or their final worshipping place where they continue to sustain song forever

[lusty tree]

maybe pilgrims had to find the three melodies to become an official member of the citadel?

[twin dragon]

she didn't

[wise sand]

Honestly it mightve just been for weavers and they just lied to make it seem like it was accessible to pilgrims for some reason

[twin dragon]

She's literally THE god of silk

we don't know in what way weavers offered service to gms

[lusty tree]

isn't her silk limited?

[twin dragon]

probably worship

[twin dragon]

no

i mean it shouldn't

[wise sand]

Each piece of melody was supposed to known only by their branch of the citadel

[lusty tree]

well then she probably used the silk that the weavers made to keep lace alive instead of herself

[twin dragon]

nope

lace didn't exist when weavers were around

Plus she could js feed her silk yknow

[lusty tree]

well then why the hell did the weavers wanted to escape so bad?

[twin dragon]

obsessive tyranical mother

duh

[desert cloak]

the quest is about traversing each place and learning their melodies though, i mean it wouldnt be as hard during its prime without the haunting

[desert cloak]

i thought it was because of the truth that they weren't her daughters as she told, and weren't divine at all

[desert cloak]

oh yeah

[twin dragon]

that happened after

[desert cloak]

i guess it was another lie of the citadel after all

[twin dragon]

Fs was incarcerated by the weavers

it hurt the citadel's image

[lusty tree]

wasn't the citadel made by the weavers to keep gms asleep?

i thought it didn't exist until gms was sealed and the weavers fled

[terse warren]

the weavers sealed her because they wanted power

they're not exactly depicted as the nicest people out there

also like

she either killed people or they'd put her asleep again, it was clearly self preservation

[wise sand]

I don't think it was just this tbh

[lean temple]

Hornet says she would stretch her soul too thin if she kept up her cocoon in act 3, so it has some limit even if it's extremely large

[wise sand]

She did NOT need to haunt all of pharloom out of self preservation

[lean temple]

And we do see her very weakened

[unique canopy]

There is a limit, but it's vast enough that the only thing threatening that limit is being submerged in pure void long enough for the plot to happen

[wise sand]

+the hunting weavers thing

Also

She killed the karak

And verdania maybe

[near hill]

https://tenor.com/view/silksong-hollow-knight-hornet-garama-guarana-gif-11792020015736795535

[twin dragon]

She's beaten up, weakened, and emotionally stressed to a crazy point

she made a big ass cocoon 2 times, thats prob enough silk to cover pharloom if it were to be stretched

[lean temple]

Point is she can't last forever against the Void

[viscid ridge]

Yeah most definitely, the problem is she would have lasted long enough to completely destroy pharloom.

Before she would die

[lean temple]

Yea

[near hill]

https://tenor.com/view/hornet-hollow-knight-silksong-hornet-hollow-knight-flea-gif-5740879968467871304

[terse warren]

she killed neither

it was the citadel

[viscid ridge]

Honestly its really strange, cause it seems like the citidel is the reason that most of the other tribes died out, but a lot of them mention that the Grand Mother is the reason they are dead.

[terse warren]

it wouldn't be the first time GMS is blamed for something the citadel did

i mean Verdania is 100% citadel but hornet still blames her and GP doesn't correct her

[viscid ridge]

So the krust king probably fell before the citidel was built

[terse warren]

doubt

i think whenever they refer to the "pale light" or the "pale power" they just mean the Silk that is being used by the Choir bugs tbh

[viscid ridge]

I mean maybe there is an explanation. Grand Mother silk probably took control of the citidel to some degree after the weavers left? Because we know the citidel was a lot more humble before the weavers left, only after they left maybe she influenced them to make the citidel more grand

[terse warren]

there is no doubt that Verdania was the Citadel though lol

cuz

yknow

[viscid ridge]

Which led to the deatb of verdania

[terse warren]

the robots

[terse warren]

highly doubt

also the citadel wasn't really humble much

[wise sand]

Ngl I still think she had some influence over the citadel after being put to sleep

[terse warren]

the weavers praised themselves as holy despite knowing they weren't divine

and also

yknow

had slaves

[viscid ridge]

It was. Hornet mentions its function has failed and it has changed to the mask maker, and the ripped out statue of pious isomar tells us how simple the citidel was before it expanded

[terse warren]

which dialogues are you referring to for mask maker

cuz caretaker also specifically says the Weavers wanted to "relish in their false rule" it doesn't sound very humble to me

[viscid ridge]

Just one of the dialogue, i cant recall it at the top of my head but it is there if you look it up

[terse warren]

mhmh

[unique canopy]

GMS was the one who started the idea of the Weavers being her divine children, so while the Weavers happily used that lie when it served their purpose, it started with GMS and it being a lie is what set off the Weavers and especially First Sinner.

[terse warren]

yeah but not what we're discussing

i still think it was the citadel that made those civilizations fall

cause otherwise the point of the game and whole message against pollution kinda falls flat

[viscid ridge]

But that dialogue also isn't the main evidence, the main evidence comes from pious isomar. He tells us something to the extent of, "our citidel is made of humbe stone" or something like that

[unique canopy]

The main thing is Karmelita specifically referring derisively to pale creatures when Hornet shows up and if you play the Elegy before talking to her. She recognizes what Hornet is, and the similarities between her and what was leading the Citadel, rather than a vague "pale light" that Khann talks about.

[cedar skiff]

i personally think many refernce to pale such as pale light could refer to the weavers

[viscid ridge]

And greed and gluttony isn't allowed, which is very different from the current citadel

[cedar skiff]

as an extension of gms essentially but yeah

im on the side of not believing gms was responsible for felling the old hearts

[unique canopy]

I don't think we need to assume that all of them fell at or near the same time.

[viscid ridge]

Maybe the rest she possibly isn't responsible for, but i think definitely she is responsible for the krust kingdom.

[wise sand]

Hornet says "a being pale"

[cedar skiff]

i take everything hornet says about pharlooms past with a grain of salt

[wise sand]

And khann says "the pale light"

[wise sand]

Fair

The green prince doesn't disagree with her tho

[unique canopy]

Nyleth specifically, there was the truce in place with her that resulted in both Nyleth's shrine and a Weaver spire being constructed, but when you go up to Seth you see the bodies of dead chorister soldiers which goes against there being a truce in the first place. So it's likely that truce was put in place while the Weavers were still around, and either forgotten about later when the Conductors were in charge or ignored by GMS when the Haunting happened.

[cedar skiff]

in general it just seems to me that gms always functioned as one who pulls the strings and doesn’t actually engage herself

the weavers would be an extension of her will still (at least before they had her fall asleep)

so the pale references could be about gms, i just think the weavers were the executioners at least

[cedar skiff]

theres a line of dialogue about the citadel making a truce with nyleth

i think its during the snail shamans old hearts quest

[viscid ridge]

Remember that those husks of citidel bugs are probably a different type of rule than it was with the weavers. The weavers probably wanted as much pilgrims to come to the citidel so the song could be sustained, but after they left the conductors probably saw a power like nyleth as heretical

[cedar skiff]

i cant pull it up rn sorry ;-;

[wise sand]

I think it would be odd that the old heart dialogues mention something pale if gms didn't have something to do with their downfalls

[unique canopy]

Chapel Maid: In the heights of the great wood, nestled deep in its roots, vines and branches, find the one who sowed the first seed.
Caretaker: They're the very essence of the place, the nub of it all. Ain't really a bug, to be told, but a powerful presence nonetheless.
Chapel Maid: We'd heard the Citadel once made grudging accord with that creature, sent their servants in reverence, even built a shrine up there somewhere. Maybe it's worth you searching for it?

[cedar skiff]

yeah thanks thats what i was referring to

[viscid ridge]

I think she definitely did, but she probably did it indirectly by controlling the citidel caste with silk.

[unique canopy]

There is a bunch of stone pilgrim decoration near Nyleth's shrine, and a Citadel notice right next to it. But those being stone means the truce was set up before the Citadel became gilded.

[wise sand]

Maybe

I don't think the haunting had started during the time of old hearts tho

[unique canopy]

Here we honour the seed that sprung the wood.
By her grace may all bugs pass safe to join us and our song.
Citadel message inside Nyleth's shrine.

[rotund pulsar]

Are you guys sure the clover dancers are gay and not brothers?

[wise sand]

The green prince calls the other one his lover

So yeah

[rotund pulsar]

Must have missed this part of the dialogue

The just look twins so I assumed

[viscid ridge]

Yeah they are lovers, theres a lot of dialogue in game saying they are

[sinful nimbus]

Two children born entwined, apart,
Two children marked to rule,
They danced, they sang, proved blades beyond,
But none forgot their birth,
For lovers born on beat exact shall be forever cursed

Born apart so not twins and it calls them lovers

[viscid ridge]

Some people get confused cause they are called twin princes, but this is because they were identical to one another, not because they are brothers

[unique canopy]

It's annoying beause there are translations that called them brothers, but those aren't canon

[wise sand]

Literally doomed yaoi

[viscid ridge]

Yeah remember there was a bit of controversy with some of the translators not doing their job correctly so take it with a grain of salt

[frank dove]

Different translations specifically say they are from the same egg

Most likely you should trust english, but that is why if you were wondering

[lone folio]

Different translations

[sinful nimbus]

Is anyone here fluent in australian i think we could figure it out with the base localization

[frank dove]

Yes I know english is probably most accurate to the lore, I said that is what caused the confusion

[lone folio]

Oh wait

I'm stupid

Oh no

I can't read

Guys forgive me I will banish myself to the abyss

May my illiteracy bother you no longer

Anyways I will go back to analyzing trobbios stage

[timber pond]

Alot of pepole are interpreting "apart" as in the eggs were taken apart an raised separately for a trial to hunt the palestag.

Because I think the peraon who voice acted sherma on the team was French and also did the whole French translation. And bassicaly just likely asked what certain words would translate into

French is one of the words that uses "Egg"

[lean temple]

Is that why Sherma's song sounds like fake French?

Fascinating

[timber pond]

There is a video that interviews shermas voice actor and yes. The person who made the video said it suspiciously sounded like a specefic French children's book nursery rhyme. It was just a coincidence, however , shermas song being a French nursery rhyme was kind of the vibe. so it was very similar to the rhyme the video presenter was refering too.

[lean temple]

The last verse in particular sounded very French-like

[narrow horizon]

these mfs are NOT siblings 💔

i understand people getting confused from different translations but people playing in ENGLISH still try to insist the clover dancers are brothers

[unique canopy]

They're just a couple of bros (figurative)

[narrow horizon]

💀

[past cypress]

Pair of friends

[narrow horizon]

and they were roommates

best buds, even

[unique canopy]

The original dub says they're cousins

[timber pond]

Well, the thing that gets muddy is: some languages (like French as i mentioned) ask team cherry directly for appropriate translation because they were litteraly the ones doing little chracter voices. And if team chery goes "Yeah Egg is good" mabye team chery wrote it wrong in English?lol.

[narrow horizon]

idk i doubt it considering it also calls them lovers

[timber pond]

Or wrote it vague intentionally

[timber pond]

Well "entwined (coma) apart" CAN read like "entwined And THEN apart" as well

Im nither here nor there about it

[past cypress]

Apart clearly refers to born there

[timber pond]

Because green prince and verdania doom themselves anyway lol

[past cypress]

"Born entwined, apart"

[narrow horizon]

counterpoint, lovers

😭

[timber pond]

There is alot of fucked up literature and history out there with royalty, hate to break it to ya.....

Alot of inbreeding

[narrow horizon]

so could be both

[timber pond]

Yeah

[narrow horizon]

still gay either way

[timber pond]

It really dosent mater tbh

[narrow horizon]

🗣🔥

it really doesn't

[unique canopy]

Hornet isn't homophobic, she just hates the Hapsburgs

[wise sand]

i think 25% of the community is lobotomized tbh

[timber pond]

Well, it is kind of fucked up in retrospect, if you consider: 1: The elders saw them born ,saw a bad omen.
2: the elders then took them apart and raised them separately
3: they competed to hunt the palestag.
4:instead of killing eachother so there was one ruller. They fell in love with thier own likeness instead😂 .
5:kingdom falls because Bad Juju

So like they never knew they were siblings in the first place

Or mabye they did and didn't care

Can't know

[frank dove]

I was clarifying, it's perfectly fine

I wrote it kind of weird too

[lone folio]

Nono it's my bad for litterly not reading one more message

[graceful grail]

Should Eva be Classified as a Vessel??

[spark valve]

No

[desert cloak]

you could say she's a.... Sealed Vessel... of sorts..

[misty yacht]

She's an attempt to create an Artificial higher being to usurp GMS

[potent blaze]

do yall think lifeblood counteracts the effects of the haunting when used in moderation?

[viscid ridge]

My initial reaction is no, but id like to hear why you think that?

[whole holly]

well sure, i guess, no user of plasmium is confirmed to be haunted so in that sense sure

[viscid ridge]

Probably, remember the haunting is a result of silk getting stuck in the bugs organs, and lifeblood has the ability to completely replace the internal organs of bugs. So my guess is that in the process of replacing the vital fluids of a bug, it gets rid of the stuck silk.

[potent blaze]

perchance

[whole holly]

doesn't specific charm do that?

[lilac hedge]

Yes but youll probably get infected by lifeblood

Eventually

[humble peak]

I wish they hadn't cut the Learnèd Pilgrim

[terse warren]

english specifically says they were born apart

[spark valve]

if translations have different mutually exclusive semantic content to the original text the translation is just wrong

[humble peak]

translations aside, the text is really fucking weird

“Two children born entwined, apart,
Two children marked to rule,
They danced, they sang, proved blades beyond,
But none forgot their birth,
For lovers born on beat exact shall be forever cursed.”
What does this mean???

It is not baseless to say they were siblings, I'm afraid. You can read "apart" as an adverb modifying "born" but also as an adjective modifying "two children".
But like, fucken, idk

Any other ideas what "entwined" and "born on beat exact" could mean?
You could interpret it as fated lovers/soulmates but why would that be "cursed"?

[inner torrent]

hello

[inner torrent]

it's very phoetic in it's way to write, it definetly can be confusing

But what i see is they are "Soulmates" destined to love each other from the start, but love so great always comes with the worst of the pain, that's why they were cursed.
You can't love comfortably.

[wheat locust]

“Two children born entwined, apart," means they are born apart in matters of time, but their fates and blood is forever entwined
"Two children marked to rule," probably means that they were both marked to rule a land at some stage
"They danced, they sang, proved blades beyond," Means they did grand performances and proved their might with a blade
"But none forgot their birth," Means that no one, even with all their acomplishments, forgot their birth
"For lovers born on beat exact shall be forever cursed." I don't really know, this probably has something to do with the exact character and I can't tell much cuz I can't remember which character it is

[inner torrent]

also, there is a big thing in verdania about a "prophecy" a prophecy of great kings that will rule, this probably could be linked to th<at "Curse" mentioned, it's their faith, to reign and to fall, a community formed by a prophecy will fall once it fails

[humble peak]

What big thing about a prophecy?

[inner torrent]

in lost verdania there are some lore tablets talking about prophecies about the prince and stuff, so that probably would explain the market to rule and the curse

[humble peak]

there's only one as far as I can find, that being the one I quoted

[inner torrent]

oh, really? i played it a while ago but i remember the word prophecy or something in the line

[cedar skiff]

the green princes are a very literal representation of the twin flame belief.

“[] a twin flame is described in New Age and esoteric teachings as the other half of a single soul, separated into two bodies.”

“[] twin flames are commonly presented as destined to reunite, though such union is said to require significant inner development and the resolution of personal barriers.”

[humble peak]

See a similar sort of concept did come to me, but the whole thing with the lover and the cogwork dancers messed me up on that a bit
Like the cogwork dancers are literal twin flames, they explicitly share a soul
which, i guess could be support for your angle, a sort of mirroring there
but, idk, I can't help but feel like there'd be some more explicit dialogue at least hinting to the significance of the situation, one half of the soul taken and split again, in it all? GP just talks about his hubby like any lost lover.

[cedar skiff]

i mean its also implied that their very bond was the thing keeping verdania alive

[humble peak]

is it?

[cedar skiff]

i cant look at direct quotes right now but the events of the game imply so anyway. i mean it literally starts regrowing when the two reunite in death

[humble peak]

I've heard that interpreted more as GP's mourning and refusal to let go was preventing Verdania from regrowing

[past cypress]

is this the full fucking text lmfaoooo nah they're 100% siblings

[cedar skiff]

that does kind of make sense and riff off of what i quoted back there.

“[] twin flames are commonly presented as destined to reunite, though such union is said to require significant inner development and the resolution of personal barriers.”

[past cypress]

I was a mistranslation truther but this is 100% incest, your goat is a fraud I'm aftaid

Afraid*

[cedar skiff]

what makes you say that

[past cypress]

"Two children marked to rule" obviously both princes to the king

"For lovers born on beat exact shall be forever cursed." zero real explanation besides incest being fucked up and taboo

Kinda surface-level to say it's about a literal prophecy/curse when Hollow Knight has always been vague and speaking with metaphors and shit

"Hallownest stands eternal" and then it didn't type shit

[humble peak]

shit

[cedar skiff]

this doesnt hold true when it comes to handling of real world issues

the abortion metaphor is so in your face

so is the underworks capitalism slavery

[humble peak]

is underworks a metaphor?? it's very literal I think

[cedar skiff]

what im saying is if they wanted a portrayal of how fucked up incest is, they wouldn’t have been afraid to make it in your face

well exactly

[inner torrent]

while interesting look onto how royalty works you are forgetting something, they are grasshoppers

[past cypress]

True...

[inner torrent]

hollowknightverse royalty is VERY inconscistent to how royalty works in real life

[past cypress]

Not really? A lot of ppl didn't see it

[cedar skiff]

the average hollow knight fan still he/hims the knight we’re overstating the intelligence of these people here

[past cypress]

We don't really see a ruler die and be taken over by their child so we don't know if it works like that

[past cypress]

True...

[inner torrent]

i mean, if they did it kinda counters what we have seen before, like the weird relationship between hive knight and vespa considering they are son and mother

[humble peak]

I agree the abortion idea is a lot less in your face than the fucking underworks, though

[cedar skiff]

i mean yeah in comparison to that absolutely

[past cypress]

That's cuz Underworks is a central theme of Silksong, it can't not be in your face

Same goes with motherhood and shit

All the central themes of HK are always obvious cuz they're central

But something like the abortion sidequest can be more vague and allegorical

[cedar skiff]

but yeah i think green princes are just an incredibly incredibly dramatic in depth portrayal of the classic soulmate trope

[past cypress]

I'll have to read up on Verdania lore tablets to see if there's anything else

Not rn tho

[humble peak]

The one I posted is the only one

[inner torrent]

i kinda hate how people seem to still force into the belief that gms and weavers are somehow related

[cedar skiff]

“For one to love another so similar to themselves, is that selfless or vain?”

they aren’t directly related

[humble peak]

Only other text is the signs on one of the puzzles

[cedar skiff]

its just like.. fucked up adoption

[inner torrent]

right? because if so, why would it be odd they are so similar?

[past cypress]

I do find it interesting how Memorium says "Destined to forget" or something like that which quite literally happens with GP forgetting how Verdania looks

[inner torrent]

all twins are similar to eachother, that's kinda what makes them twins

[past cypress]

Like they aren't just destroying the outside kingdoms they're straight up making them unrecognisable and demolishing any memory of them

[inner torrent]

wait, whois gp?

[past cypress]

Green Prince

[cedar skiff]

i fear the clover dancers storyline just goes bar for bar with the rooted in spirituality concept of a twin flame

were never even shown their deeper origins

[past cypress]

Karmelita remembers her theatre or colosseum or whatever that place was, Khann remembers his tower and GP can't even remember his own fucking house

Like it's all very surface level

Maybe it's just gameplay

[cedar skiff]

for all we know they could just be grasshoppers born in different places who met at a gay bar in pharloom and gave birth to verdania

[past cypress]

But the "destined to forget" and GP needing to "recollect" the memories makes me think otherwise

[humble peak]

where are you getting this from?
did I miss something? hold on

[inner torrent]

i don't think verdania was originated by gp and gp2

[past cypress]

Red Memory is a full-on walkthrough of various memories, while every other time Elegy is used it's a small area

It can't even be Hornet specifically focusing on the boss cuz Green Prince doesn't even fight you until you almost completely fill in Verdania

[humble peak]

Our capital, built grand... The seat of our sovereignty... slipped from my mind...
Why does it fade? Why can I not recall that sacred place?
alr I'd never seen this dialogue lol

[inner torrent]

is sad to know hornet doesn't remember her mother's face

[past cypress]

Yeah that's the point of the little orbs around Verdania

Collecting them builds back GP's memory

[humble peak]

GP is such an asshole lol

[inner torrent]

supossing it isn't just an excuse to not show herrah's face because tc didn't think of herrah being a weaver soon enough

[cedar skiff]

nah i think its effective writing

ari wouldnt miss out on an excuse to fill another five sketchbook pages or so

i also think green prince forgetting could just be caused by him lacking his other part

gay break up induced dementia

assuming lovers born on beat exact is just fancy wording for soulmate the cursed in question could literally just mean that if they separate everything falls apart

i am really trying to wrap my head around verdania lore

[past cypress]

Could be tbh

To be fair if it was about incest they probably wouldn't show them peacefully resting together in modern day Verdania

[twin dragon]

correct

and it did fall apart

Some heavy old heart lore is locked behind some optional ass sidequest

While nyleth has NOTHING

why is nyleth a thing

[cedar skiff]

nyleth is shellwood

i had a compelling thought about nyleth this morning but i forgot so

i think nyleth maybe is supposed to show how the ecosystem naturally comes to be. i guess she’s just rehashed unn. its a bummer she doesnt have as much depth as the other 3

[unique canopy]

I think the point of Nyleth is to show that there was a time when the Citadel could co-exist on friendly terms with the surrounding civilizations, and at some point during either the gilded age or the Haunting they lost that.

[inner torrent]

now that you say it, if you read as if, soulmates are destined to when ended, curse.
instead of lovers are destined to a cursed ending.

[inner torrent]

when the weavers were reigning instead of the conductors

[unique canopy]

It's really fun contrasting the two Shellwood shrines

The one for Nyleth is asking for its benevolent protection so pilgrims can reach the Citadel safely

The one under the Weaver shrine is saying it can't murder and eat the pilgrims anymore

[cedar skiff]

how kind

[inner torrent]

me when i'm not shellwood plantfood: Thank you ms.nyleth

[twin dragon]

Yeah, and she isn't really a "ruler"

She's also seemingly not mentioned anywhere in shellwood except in her own shrine zone

there's no foreshadowing that she'll be a thing

since her shrine is locked behind act 3

[cedar skiff]

i think shellwood just being a normal ass in universe forest down to the name by all means kinda works well with this weirdly enough? its just the ecosystem working its way and nyleth is basically just a manifestation of that

[twin dragon]

Im not arguing with that

it's just that nyleth's kinda there

almost unrelated to shellwood

[cedar skiff]

yeah its sorta outta place that out of all the hearts she has no beforehand foreshadowing

[twin dragon]

Like they gave GP all this stupid questline for it to be optional content

[cedar skiff]

really feels like verdania should have been the required heart

[twin dragon]

Yeah

[wise sand]

Mods, pin this/j

[wise sand]

Huh

[past cypress]

I'd like to think Nyleth being cut off from the rest of Shellwood via the Underworks is worldbuilding

[twin dragon]

It would be fine

if it had any actual impact on shellwood and actually explained

[inner torrent]

gms relationship with weavers may as well just be a metaphor for foster abuse

[twin dragon]

I can see that

Though we don't really know what gms did exactly to be this bad

[limpid summit]

Question

So the Grub Care Instructions is dubiously canon right

There’s that thing about “snail tales” where grubs singing has restorative properties

(Grubsong)

Now that we know concretely in SS that shamans were doing crazy shit stringing up pilgrims can we assume they were also doing experiments on grubs to try and study a new application of soul

[inner torrent]

the most popular theory is slaving, pretty similar to what she does with the haunting, using her authority as the "creator" she convinced the weavers to adorate her (supposedly this should help gms in a way?)

[twin dragon]

we know that worship boosts gods

[limpid summit]

Is howling wraiths made of grub soul

[twin dragon]

why the fuck is there a purely white pic

[inner torrent]

that's interesting, as the grubfly elegy actually gives you the same attack as the shaman crest

[twin dragon]

also when did shamans mention doing shit to pilgrims?

[inner torrent]

it's a white png that forceturned into a jpg with white background most likely

[limpid summit]

The spell recipes in SS have some dead pilgrims

[lone folio]

In their recipes

[inner torrent]

same, when did that happen?

[twin dragon]

true

[limpid summit]

It’s howling wraiths nubbie

[lone folio]

"five pilgrims left to dry" or something

[twin dragon]

Harvested for soul obv i doubt theyd

fucking eat them

[wise sand]

In the area you get shamans crest

[unique canopy]

Flickering Flame
Five masks swirled soul, brought and broiled.
Four stones rage-baked, crushed powder coarse.
Three shells fresh from pilgrims fallen, to contain and age.

Anguished Aura
Eight masks hard, swirled soul enraged.
Twelve aknids flat, all juices strained.
Six pilgrims living, hung long to drain.

Lore tablets from the Ruined Citadel

[lone folio]

Anguished aura 🔥

[inner torrent]

guess the soul scholars werent that wrong about they ideas to collect soul power lol

[twin dragon]

Noone of those mentions the void btw

[inner torrent]

shaman's seem to be more efficient tho

[limpid summit]

That’s true I always sort of saw that as coincidence idk there’s no grubs around

Maybe it’s indication that spiral snail focus and grub focus (?) are similar in some ways

[twin dragon]

focus?

afaik thats hb exclusive

[inner torrent]

that could be

[limpid summit]

Not entirely

I mean like it’s just a word they aren’t all the same

But Godseeker focus and spiral focus

[inner torrent]

focus is just really odd

[limpid summit]

It’s like mask

Not all masks are the same idea

[twin dragon]

It's not the same focus then

it's not "focus"

[limpid summit]

Godseeker focus is the only vastly different one

[twin dragon]

Im assuming not the focus of imbuing soul into one's shell

[limpid summit]

Spiral focus is also presumably that

[twin dragon]

what the fuck is a spiral focus

[inner torrent]

so basically, in hkverse, spirals are a very efficient shape to use soul

[limpid summit]

Soul Eater shaman corpse (?) mentions a spiral focus

[twin dragon]

Yeah we don't have much on that

[inner torrent]

that's why shamans have spiral shells, that's why the soulcatcher/eater and the shaman stone has spiral patters all around, etc...

[twin dragon]

and it could rlly just be a way to focus soul, not the "focus" that higher beings have

since hbs can absorb shit?

for some reason

with their focus

[limpid summit]

Huh

Idk I feel like that’s not a hb trait

[twin dragon]

We don't rlly see non hbs use it

[limpid summit]

It’s just a thing some of them have that’s stronger than the mortal application

[inner torrent]

focus is just a very overall therm ig

[twin dragon]

Yeah focus can mean a lot of things

but im referring to the healing mechanic

[inner torrent]

wait

but

[lone folio]

Soul sanctum and godseekers:

[inner torrent]

first sinner can focus

[twin dragon]

Yeah she's "hb"

[inner torrent]

well, "bind"

[twin dragon]

bind is silk focus basically

i'd say

[inner torrent]

yep

[twin dragon]

Not the same thing

[lone folio]

It's all focus

[twin dragon]

weavers are basically mutated as semi hbs

idfk

[twin dragon]

so is focusing on an enemy in a gauntlet idfk

thats not what im talking about

[lone folio]

No the magical kind of focus is what I mean

[twin dragon]

Yeah it's not "focus"

not the healing mechanic in both games

[lone folio]

Godseekers have "focus" weathered mask description says so: "the design suggests the wearers thoughts were focused through the crest."

[twin dragon]

that's not the same thing

the godseekers arent binding soul to their shell

nor absorbing shit

[lone folio]

Why's that the only kind of focus? Why can't someone focus thoughts? Your telling me the only focus is related to soul and the player characters?

[twin dragon]

gms can "bind"

THK also focused at one point

PV's attack is also focus

[lone folio]

So you just mean the healing and binding mechanic?

[twin dragon]

Yeah...

Well not necessarily healing

since PV focused soul on runes

[lone folio]

Oh well I thought we were talking about the entire "focus" thing

[twin dragon]

in one of his attacks

but soul/silk focus bs

[lone folio]

So what you are telling me is that focus is when a character stands still and focuses soul?

[twin dragon]

it's referred to as focus/bind

that's the focus im talking about

focus can mean a lot of things

not that everything thats named focus IS focus

[inner torrent]

how differnt are spells from focuses?

[twin dragon]

Focus prob focus souls into the user

instead of viceversa

[inner torrent]

but the focus pv uses goes to the outside

same with the rage runes hornet and fs use

[twin dragon]

The runes could be coming from inside him

like it forms a ball of them around PV after all

[inner torrent]

hmmm that could make sense

[twin dragon]

And for like focus/bind

smt smt soul or silk is part of the being

since the hbs or similar that have it are the gods of soul/related to it

[lone folio]

What about snail shaman focus?

[twin dragon]

we dont rlly know

its one dream nail dialogue

[timber pond]

Thier shells are thier focus, and that focus creates uniqe spells it seems.

[lone folio]

So we have two kinds of focus which are separated by if bugs are gods or not?

[timber pond]

Godly bugs can probably just do it themselvs

Non god bugs need "something"

Like godseeker, snail shamans ect

[lone folio]

Soul sanctum want to achieve "pure focus" is that also a coincidence?

[twin dragon]

Not the same kinds of focus

[twin dragon]

They probably wanted to replicate it

or smt

idfk

that's my take on it

it might not be hb exclusive

fuck knows

[lone folio]

Oh but they probably refer to the soul kind of focus.. So we have 3 kinds of focus

No two kinds of focus. Focus used by pale hbs and focus used by masked bugs

[unique canopy]

Multiple definitions of "focus" are crashing into each other causing confusion imo

[lone folio]

I feel like they are all related but idk

Kind of silly to use one word for a couple of different focuses. Causes great confusion if anything

[sinful nimbus]

Grubsong was foreshadowing casting spells through magic ❤️‍🩹

Does Eva's singing also gather soul

[muted lantern]

Hey so i just realized, I originally assumed things like bb and greyroot having no needolin text implied they didn't have any silk in them to make us understand their thoughts, but it seems styx has none as well? and i doubt he's lacking traces of silk considering his diet of silkeaters.

[twin dragon]

they just dont respond

needolin doesnt really need silk to make ppl sing

[muted lantern]

It even makes wild animals sing and translates the thoughts of bugs whose language we don't speak, and the creatures we play the song for still are singing, we just don't get any text for them.

the only bugs it cant make sing are those without silk in them like the ones on the surface

[twin dragon]

Some just either chose to or cant react to it

idk

[twin dragon]

You can get garmond and shakra's text

when they sing

iirc

[muted lantern]

yes?? what point does that make, they both are from pharloom and thusly have traces of silk in them

[inner torrent]

music, the prime language

[twin dragon]

Not rlly? not necessarily everything has traces of silk just because they're in pharloom, shakra's presumably in very far pharloom territory

and garmond could be from the surface town

but that's baseless

[inner torrent]

probably shakra and garmond has silk

[twin dragon]

Ok, even then, no strand connects to them when singing

[muted lantern]

well we know explicitly that creatures without silk in their shell don't get affected by needolin, like the bugs on the surface.

[terse warren]

i mean

Gurr has no silk in him

[inner torrent]

silk is itself in the air they breath, in the prey the hunt, even in the water

[twin dragon]

they sing out of sheer will

[muted lantern]

the strand only exemplifies haunted bugs

[unique canopy]

Garmond definitely has silk, his entire town got depopulated due to the Haunting and that is explicitly why he's storming the Citadel

[twin dragon]

They choose to ignore it or just run away scared

it's not like needolin forces shit to sing unless haunted

[inner torrent]

let's remember silk is to the haunting what dream is to the infection

[muted lantern]

bugs can't choose to ignore it, do you think enemies choose to pe paralyzed and sing for us in the middle of a battle?

[twin dragon]

someone like trobbio would

plus most of the things that sing with us are usually sparring

[unique canopy]

Yeah and there are multiple examples of pilgrims we see who are normal and lucid at first, and later become Haunted enemies

[terse warren]

I mean...

[muted lantern]

literally every boss will sing... including the ones explicitly trying to kill us, what are you arguing

[terse warren]

Burning Bugs

Stilkin also aren't Haunted

[muted lantern]

groal is

[twin dragon]

maybe because most of them are related to silk in some way?

[terse warren]

Ok? doesn't change that the Stilkin aren't and they still sing

[twin dragon]

and not every boss sings

usually because they don't gaf or are void

[inner torrent]

there is one boss that won't sing i think

[terse warren]

Gurr

[muted lantern]

ya gotta read the convo above, not saying you need to be haunted to sing, you need to have silk in your body, which every bug has, as said by the pilgrims writings in the marrow and implied by snail shaman

[terse warren]

The Stilkins sing and they aren't Haunted

[muted lantern]

fixed a typo

[twin dragon]

they also presumably dont have silk in them

[terse warren]

And Burning Bugs straight up don't have silk in them for sure since they can't even be corrupted by the black thread

yet they sing anyways

some of them unironically just vibe

like trobbio

[muted lantern]

i accidentlally left out the word not, what i said was "Im not saying you need to be haunted to sing, just to have silk in your shell"

[lilac hedge]

I mean wisp is feared by like everything

[muted lantern]

as i was arguing earlier

[terse warren]

doesn't change the burning bug argument

[twin dragon]

wisp's whole thing is not being touched by GMS's influence

[inner torrent]

i think we are forgetting that the elegy has power itself

it empowered gms by the flashback of the widow

[muted lantern]

does anything in the game say they have no silk in their shell? every bug in pharloom has it, even with them burning the silk dregs, the one bug explicitly stated to have no silk is also one of the few that doesnt react to needolin

[terse warren]

I don't see why the black thread would just not touch them otherwise

[inner torrent]

well it's kinda because of that, they burn the silk,but, technically,the burning may just be burning the silk in the air, the one that connects them to gms

[muted lantern]

black thread only touches the haunted

[inner torrent]

they maybe still have silk in their organs, is just, disconnected

[unique canopy]

I'm not sure if not being black threaded can be counted on to discount something from having silk in it or even potentially Haunted. To use the most extreme example, Wraiths don't black thread and they're literally made of ethereal silk in the air.

[muted lantern]

burning the silk certainly protects them from the haunting, but snail shaman says explicitly that the silk in bugs shells is passed down generation to generation.

[twin dragon]

Void doesnt reach em there probably

idk

[lilac hedge]

Garmond was haunted all this time?

[inner torrent]

wraiths are controlled by phantom, though

[muted lantern]

he became haunted, bugs become haunted all the time.

[twin dragon]

Garmond could've been haunted along the way

[inner torrent]

probably they aren't connected to the haunting

[twin dragon]

after fighting haunted enemies for so long

[inner torrent]

so yeah, the only moment they would "lose the silk" would, funny enough, be when they immolate

[twin dragon]

There's also no effect when they stop singing or they start singing

[lilac hedge]

Also why does the surface memento fall when you specificlky play the needolin

[twin dragon]

since haunted or silk related bugs have a lil silk pop effect

[muted lantern]

theres silk strands there iirc, so probably it was held back by those

[lilac hedge]

I doubt there is a the surface

[muted lantern]

you doubt there is a surface? or was this a typo

[lilac hedge]

I doubt there is even silk on the surface

[twin dragon]

FATHER OF THE FLAME has a needolin dialogue btw

[lilac hedge]

Since gms couldnt reach there

[muted lantern]

i remember there being a strand that indicates where to play needolin.

[twin dragon]

Yeah

those are prob silk memories

[lilac hedge]

They probably used that “break only when half wyrm half weaver child comes to the surface and plays needolin glue” that sherma sells

[muted lantern]

father of the flames hunters journal entry explicitly states he wasnt completely immolated yet, and hornet was the one that finished the job, therefore he still had silk in his body.

again, doesnt disprove the point

[twin dragon]

The silk would've burned up before the body

cmon

[muted lantern]

ah yes your internal organs are always the first thing to burn when set on fire

lol

[lilac hedge]

Skin epidermis muscle organs bones i think it goes like that

[twin dragon]

its not like your body can handle being burnt a lot more than literal threads

Anyways im gonna sleep

gn

[muted lantern]

the magical threads from a god that can cut through steel?

In the air. The water. Everywhere.
Inside their shells. Twisted inside. Guts.
Tightest around heart. Pulsing rhythm.
Sick. Alive. Dead?
Something worse.
Deeper. Must look deeper.

the silk is inside people, around their heart. to get rid of it you'd have to fully immolate the body, which is why its part of the thicket bugs belief. the burning of silk outside is a preventative measure.

All that aside, my one curiosity is that despite reacting to the needolin, there are a few unique bugs that don't give us needolin text, for greyroot i assume she has no silk in her shell to play off and is choosing to sing, also possible for the bell beast, but for styx he must have silk in his shell? he literally feeds on silkeaters? though he is a bit of a strange kind of creature.

wait wait

just did it again and now he has needolin text

maybe my game was just bugged?

disregard my point

[narrow horizon]

Trobbio just goated ofc

[muted lantern]

I needolined him for like a minute lol

and now hes doing it after he prepared his first morsel

[humble peak]

burning silk is a little weird because aren't they burning the bodies in whiteward and retrieving the silk after?
or did I get that from some secondhand source that misinterpreted something?

[frigid belfry]

they use the soul of aged bugs to create silkflies, and burn the corpses to be sent out out the exhaust organ with the rest of the waste

[humble peak]

no not that, bugs that died in surgery and stuff

lemme get the text

[frigid belfry]

Yeah that’s them

[muted lantern]

I don't remember the text where its said but i remember that somewhat, though if true it would lean into my point that youd need a throurough immolation to actually destroy the silk, and the bug would burn before the silk did.

[humble peak]

Mh, no I think it was a misinterpretation

Surgeon's orders.

"Devout has succumbed during Silk suture. Refuses to revive. Sin committed. Permit no rites.

Husk marked for cremation. Retrieve dregs."
Doesn't necessarily sound like the burning is done before the retrieval

[muted lantern]

hmmm

[humble peak]

no that's something else
bugs who are old and can't work anymore are turned into flies
bugs who jus fucking die are scorned and burnt

[frigid belfry]

Yeah the husks mentioned are corpses after silkfly extraction

[humble peak]

no??

[frigid belfry]

Yes their corpses are burned afterward, the entire body doesn’t become a silkfly

Pretty sure

[humble peak]

read the text
"succumbed during Silk suture"
"Sin committed. Permit no rites."

[ornate pier]

No I'm pretty sure the husks are specifically burned to retrieve the dregs
Mortician journal entry says this I think

[humble peak]

becoming a silkfly was meant to be a "noble" thing, it's so you can continue serving eternal
this commandment is about bugs who die during regular life-extension surgeries

which was sinful
dying is illegal, as we know

because if you're dead you can't serve

[muted lantern]

could you grab the text you refer to?

[lilac hedge]

Tf you gonna be charged with when you are dead lol

[ornate pier]

First part of morticians journal entry and some of their needolin dialogue

Give me a sec

[humble peak]

Altered servant of the Citadel's Whiteward, responsible for the cremation of husks and the recycling of Silk from their shells.

Again it's not super clear?
Might be two separate tasks

"preserved through flame"

[ornate pier]

Yeah the needolin dialogue definitely suggests it's the same task

[muted lantern]

Okay so yes its really hard to burn silk then

which makes sense because burning silk flies are still alive

[humble peak]

burning silk flies?

[inner torrent]

probably silk doesn't burn with simple fire?

[humble peak]

oh the wisps?

[inner torrent]

there probably is something special in wisp thicket fire

[muted lantern]

ye

[lethal burrow]

if dying is illegal, and how come your sins are forgiven after you die in the slab sometimes? Is it illegal or is it not what's going on?

[ornate pier]

Is this a theory that wisps are silkflies

[inner torrent]

it's so similar to real religion lol

[lethal burrow]

They look exactly the same

[frigid belfry]

That’s the fun part, they aren’t, it’s more of a lie to keep you in jail

[lethal burrow]

One's just on fire

[inner torrent]

i mean, they kinda are? but also no

[muted lantern]

depends on how good you were doing at penance before they killed you in the torture machine i guess

[inner torrent]

silk is alive, let's remember that

[ornate pier]

Dying in the citadel specifically maybe

[humble peak]

well bugs sentenced in the slab are like, ig those ones they want to die
if they're trying to keep you alive then dying is illegal
but if they don't like you anymore then they don't gaf

[inner torrent]

silk is soul, and soul is life

[frigid belfry]

I think it’s that the white ward burned corpses they extracted silkflies from

[muted lantern]

after gms is consumed by the void, do yall think all the silk powered machines would stop working? or would the remaining silk continue to function

[lethal burrow]

not all silk is soul I don't think.

[humble peak]

the silk we see in the game is

[lethal burrow]

even covering the elevator in deep nest?

[inner torrent]

soulless silk is just web

[frigid belfry]

Eventually yeah since there’s no one else in pharloom that can create silk

[humble peak]

different game

[lethal burrow]

Red memory

[humble peak]

hmmmm

[muted lantern]

i mean would all the currently available silk vanish

[humble peak]

I don't see why it would

Lace is fine

[muted lantern]

aside from silkflies, do cogworks run on silk?

[frigid belfry]

Probably not, all the silk isn’t tied to gms’s essence

[inner torrent]

like not all dreams are tied to radiance

[inner torrent]

probably.

[humble peak]

rad wasn't the "primal source of dreams" though

[inner torrent]

good point

[frigid belfry]

Some run on silkflies (you can see them upon death)

[humble peak]

all*

[inner torrent]

do hornet cogflies work on silk?

[humble peak]

oh those idr

[inner torrent]

it has a cord key, or whatever is the name of those motorized toys thing you have to twist

[lethal burrow]

Doesn't cost any silk to use

[humble peak]

I don't think we're ready to consider the implications of Hornet's cogflies

[lethal burrow]

What implications

[muted lantern]

i did say aside from silkflies lol

[humble peak]

They don't seem to, I don't think

[humble peak]

how they work, do they have ethically-questionable components inside of them

all other cogwork automata run on literal souls
and the cogflies do sing when you play the needolin

[muted lantern]

every cogwork comes prepackaged with a built in orphan mulcher. Fazbear approved!

[inner torrent]

when enemy coglies die

do they spawn silkflies?

[muted lantern]

I don't think their eyes are even lit, presumably they don't function without the conductor bug guiding them, similar to how hornet uses them. silkflies are used for independant cognition presumably

[visual glacier]

They don’t

Confirmed

[inner torrent]

that would explain why you have to twist that thing when you use them

[muted lantern]

the citadel uses silkflies like fazbear entertainment uses the souls of dead children

[inner torrent]

when there so much how can someone resist?

[muted lantern]

NOOO IM SORRY STYX....

i didn't think it was breakable...

also has anyone noticed this pretty substancial pilgrim encampment in bilewater? do you think they actually tried to take this path over the blasted steps?

[unique canopy]

There are a bunch of the stone pilgrim carvings in the lower area along with a bunch of Sinner's Road cages and the Bellway, so yeah probably.

[inner torrent]

probably those come from before bilewater was so poisoned or so dangerous

[lethal burrow]

i'm inclined to believe they're just mechanical because hornet can make new ones from scratch without any flies or silk

[lilac pond]

Did TC ever confirm whether Sherma is an innocent child or a naive adult?

[humble peak]

I think he's an innocent adult

[lilac pond]

Wait, wouldn't your name be more lore THAN there seems?

Or is it old english then?

[muted lantern]

Imagine running flom blasted steps and trying to get to the citadel through sinners road, bilewwater, and the mist. talk about out of the frying pan

[lilac pond]

Just climb to the putrefied ducts and enter through the Memorium

[muted lantern]

theres a locked gate blocking them, you have to go through the citadel end

theres 2 actually

[lilac pond]

Yeah, just joking, that would take some sequence breaking

[lilac pond]

One of them is locked behind double jumping, isn't it?

[muted lantern]

yes that too but not what i was refferring to

theres a locked path to putrified that can only be accessed from putrified, and a path to memorium that can only be accessed through memorium

[lilac pond]

I suppose you could climb mt fay without clawline and get into wisp thicket

[inner torrent]

you can actually

[muted lantern]

I don't think any of these are any more accessible to pilgrims...

[inner torrent]

extremely annoying tho

[lilac pond]

I thought the locked path was from the bilewater side

[unique canopy]

There's another one on the ducts side

[lilac pond]

Speaking of secrets, I only learned today there was a shortcut to Styx this whole time

It would have made getting back to him so much easier

[unique canopy]

If you enter through Bilewater you can only go in the area where the Huntress house and Apostate key are.

[lilac pond]

Ah

[inner torrent]

now that i think about it, poisoning bilewater was probably done on purpose

in order to avoid pilgrims to skip through it

[humble peak]

don't bother, they have some strange justification
I don't understand it but whatever they mean is intentional

[lethal burrow]

indulge me. what do you think old English "then" is?

[dry bridge]

Given there's a ruined citadel toll bench all the way up in bilewater I'm of the mind that there may have been a second proper way into the citadel in ages past but after they started dumping waste into bilewater it got used less and less and eventually that second way was completely sealed off

[muted lantern]

the mist seems to be part of greymoor? there are dead moorbugs at the entrance, the construction materials and architecture are the same, and it uses a lot of the moors traps

[dry bridge]

Sinner's road is a sub-area of greymoor IIRC

[lethal burrow]

sinners Road pretty much used to be part of the region that used to be comprised of greymoor, sinners road, and wisp thicket

[muted lantern]

ye but the mist is in bilewater

[dry bridge]

it's where the roach farmers are and where they keep prisoners of greymoor (as opposed to the slab's citadel prisoners)

[lethal burrow]

it's in sinners Road.

The exhaust organ is in bilewater

[inner torrent]

why the organ so tired

[lethal burrow]

It's old

[pale narwhal]

the fact that people told me to do this when i was struggling with last judge is actually insane

[lilac pond]

I think the word than originated from the old english then

[pale narwhal]

apparently they did used to be the same word

[muted lantern]

im still struggling to decide whos the speaker here, id assume its lace as phantoms in the tube, but honestly dialogue wise it fits a little more with phantom, the one who talks a lot about fading.

[sinful nimbus]

Lace is subject to the same fate of fading eventually

"Why us" not "Why me"

[muted lantern]

what im saying is phantom is more known to be talk about the fading, it being present in their needolin dialogue, the text implies phantoms the speaker to me, but the poses imply its lace speaking

[sinful nimbus]

Lace empathizing with Phantom and dissing GMS is pretty in character

[muted lantern]

why is phantom in the tube anyway?

is it like their dramatic vampire coffin?

[sinful nimbus]

Sustains her silk or something

[muted lantern]

i guess it's kinda like evas chamber

can phantom even talk from in there?

[sinful nimbus]

Would be kinda wonky

[muted lantern]

Also, i saw someone online saying mossbag called the green prince and his lover twins, but i don't remember ever seeing him do that in his vid, was op just hallucinating or can someone else corroborate that

[sinful nimbus]

He calls them twin princes

Doubt that's supposed to be literal

[visual glacier]

He does

[muted lantern]

oh yeah that doesnt sound like its meant to be interperted as siblings

[timber pond]

Implications from discarded sprites imply that she is sleeping in there

[sweet shale]

cut content is not canon

[timber pond]

My theroy is that: when she's sleeping in the organ its stopping her from disappearing/disintegration

[timber pond]

True but cut content in the past has given us implications of what is currently,actually going on for a chracter

[visual glacier]

Are you talking about the organ sleepers rn?

Because that whole thing was 100% scrapped

[timber pond]

Prime example is the hollow knights cut dreamnail diolouge

[timber pond]

I know the sleepers themselves are scraped

Im simply saying it just makes sense that phantom is sleeping in the tube

If that was the developers intention throughout iterations

[visual glacier]

Doesn’t fit lore discussion if it’s just a headcanon with no proof

[timber pond]

The hollow knight was still later proven to care about his father even though his dreamnail diolouge was cut, and that's a much further leap to have made

[visual glacier]

That’s not even a leap

Also vessels are genderless

[timber pond]

I don't think ita that far of a leap to say that phantom is sleeping

[timber pond]

I still think THK was raised in a masculine way tbh. But whatever sure.

[visual glacier]

Thk is genderless

[timber pond]

Yes but it never states what it wants "ITS" identity to be

[pale narwhal]

i think cut content can be considered as pseudo-canon
which is to say, accepted unless contradicted

[visual glacier]

Bad take

[sweet shale]

tf does “masculine way” mean

[pale narwhal]

because they're not supposed to want

[timber pond]

The pale king raised THK like his own son

Simple as

[sweet shale]

why son specifically

[pale narwhal]

but, Hornet is explicitly referred to as the Gendered Child
meaning that the rest are not gendered

[sweet shale]

does it ever say son

[timber pond]

Idk, because he taught THK from his own experiences, ways of fighting , mannerisms ect?

[pale narwhal]

like? thats his actual child. not like

[visual glacier]

Why son tho?

Shakras master/honorary mother taught her

[graceful grail]

ZoteBoat update - sprites need attention.

[sweet shale]

i doubt PK was that hands on

[visual glacier]

Damn he’s fast

[timber pond]

Because if the pale king raised him as a father, and he had no other parental figures. He would develop masculine mannerisms and stature.

[muted lantern]

bruh what does that even mean, they were raised as a mindless object. if you consider that masculine i worry for you.

[visual glacier]

Do you think masculinity=male gender

[pale narwhal]

and? their magic spells they use were taught to them by the all female weavers.

[timber pond]

Clearly they were taught to at least fight and bonded to some extent as seen in path of pain. So I don't belive that.

[sweet shale]

i would think it was raised equally by PK and WL

[muted lantern]

what about any of those things is masculine inherently

[sinful nimbus]

Well that's a pretty clear metaphor for toxic masculinity

[timber pond]

Im saying the ways in which he was taught by the pale king, likely were.

[muted lantern]

what does that even mean

[sinful nimbus]

Getting King's Brand (a gendered term despite being a non-gendered vessel) is symbolic of becoming a man

[sweet shale]

like i dont know why yall assuming WL was completely absent from THK’s life

[muted lantern]

taught to fight masculinely?

[sweet shale]

because it was the brand of the pale KING

[visual glacier]

It’s the kings brand because it’s the brand of the pale king

[sinful nimbus]

Media literacy is dead

TK claims the KING's Brand yes

[timber pond]

In a way the pale king knows how. Unlike a weaver would or something. And the pale king is pretty masculine in my eyes.

[sinful nimbus]

It marks it as KING

[pale narwhal]

so are you going to tell me any girl raised mostly by a father counts as a man?

[sweet shale]

king has historically been relatively gender neutral

[muted lantern]

so being raised by a single father makes you a man??

[lapis creek]

yes

[sinful nimbus]

??

[lapis creek]

kingdom is gender neutral

king not so much

[sweet shale]

oif it has been historically men who took up the title women could be kings

[timber pond]

No. But in the case of the vessels, identity is imprinted onto them and learned in that way. In my eyes.

[sweet shale]

yeah i agree with you but this is a strawman

[muted lantern]

I don't think theres anything to imply thats how that works

[lapis creek]

interesting hypothetical but unfortunately there was a mother figure like right there

[pale narwhal]

you need new eyes then

[timber pond]

There is nothing else that defines them otherwise

[sweet shale]

legitimately

[sweet shale]

WL?

[muted lantern]

wl wasnt present iirc

[timber pond]

Do we ever see white lady raise a vessel?

[sinful nimbus]

idk why you'd assume they are using the word in an archaic sense here

[sweet shale]

where is this implied

[sinful nimbus]

Especially when immediately after White Lady brings up gender when talking about King's Brand

[lapis creek]

theres like a nursery and everything

[sinful nimbus]

"It faced the Gendered Child?"

[sweet shale]

bc white lady was more of a concubine than an actual equal ruler

[sinful nimbus]

??

That's not relevant at all

[muted lantern]

didn't she retreat to hide away because of the grief of sacrificing her children? i don't imagine shed want to stick around to see them, even if she was in te palace still

[lapis creek]

is it even true

[sweet shale]

she raised hornet

at least partially

[muted lantern]

we were talking about thk

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet says she can't claim King's Brand presumably because she's the gendered child (a woman)

[sweet shale]

but hornet was after thk

[lapis creek]

what

[visual glacier]

When does she say that?

[timber pond]

When i first saw this ,my thoguht was and is: that they simply cannot reproduce and are undeveloped. Therefore genderless in that sense

[sinful nimbus]

Well she says that the mark is only reserved for "one like you" which probably means its genderless state

[muted lantern]

gender has nothing to do with reproduction

[sweet shale]

hornet was created out of necessity to bind THK

[sinful nimbus]

And King's Brand is TK coming into its role as a healthy man

[visual glacier]

It’s her duty to protect the brand from vessels, only letting a strong one claim it

[sinful nimbus]

Not really relevant

[lapis creek]

star cant keep getting away with this

[pale narwhal]

she never says she cant

[sinful nimbus]

I clarified what I meant a bit further down

[lapis creek]

what about thk's giggly girly flirty charm

[timber pond]

In the context of the way they use it in this bug world it does in some cases. Like how Hornet only sees potential partners as "Mates" they are using these words in a more traditional sense. The vessels would have had a gender if the void did not stunt the eggs and fill them out with void.

[sinful nimbus]

What would "one like you" mean if not genderless

[lapis creek]

a vessel

[visual glacier]

??? Obviously a vessel

[sinful nimbus]

What's that have to do with King's Brand

[lapis creek]

what would hornet do with king's brand

[sweet shale]

thk is obviously a manly man with 58 guns and a monster truck

[lapis creek]

why would she want to claim it

[sinful nimbus]

You can't unironically tell me the brand that marks you as KING has nothing to do with gender

[visual glacier]

They can return to the abyss ig

[muted lantern]

to go into the abyss and die instantly

[pale narwhal]

or the fact that The Knight is 0% mortal bug
while hornet was born to a mortal mother

[lapis creek]

she already knows what the vessels are

[visual glacier]

It’s the mark of the king, specifically the pale king as pointed out by serveral NPCs

[sinful nimbus]

TK being ungendered is a deliberate detail

[tepid mountain]

Because it’s the authority as King that matters, not the gender of King??

[sinful nimbus]

And it marks the ungendered TK as king yes

[lapis creek]

she has already claimed responsibility for the maintenance of hallownest

[tepid mountain]

Like what.

[sinful nimbus]

Its not the Monarch's Brand

They chose the word KING

[timber pond]

I actualy agree. But white lady could also be refering to vessels tho

[lapis creek]

yeah because it's the symbol of the pale king

[tepid mountain]

Because it’s the brand of the Pale KING.

[sweet shale]

doesnt have the same ring now does it

[random harbor]

Jinn - General - Listening after acquiring King's Brand

...A King, the tiny It becomes. Jinn knows that mark, but cannot bow.
Jinn's masters are other... minds other... Not order. Not order, they seek.

@glorkishjames used /npcs merchants name: Jinn category: General dialogue: Listening after acquiring King's Brand

[sinful nimbus]

Which TK takes the responsibilities of yes

[unique canopy]

A being that's a vessel of the void which allows it to last inside the Black Egg (something which Hornet says she can't do for long and she passes out if you take too long after she GET GUDs THK) and capable of uniting the void to actually destroy Radiance instead of resealing it, neither of which Hornet can do regardless of either of their genders.

[sinful nimbus]

Hence becoming a man

[visual glacier]

There are female kings all throughout history

[sinful nimbus]

idk why you'd assume they are using the word in its archaic sense

[timber pond]

Those are called queens...

[sinful nimbus]

Like c'mon that can't be a good faith argument

Kings are dudes

[sinful nimbus]

They chose to affirm that the intentionally genderless protagonist becomes king

[sweet shale]

well TECHNICALLY both tk and thk have wills so they can identify as male

[visual glacier]

I mean they used the king title, not the queen title

[sinful nimbus]

yes yes yes

Exactly

TK is genderless and has to become a man by taking responsibility of the kingdom

[timber pond]

So they chose to be more of a man?

[visual glacier]

No

They just used the king title

[lapis creek]

what exactly do you mean by become a man here

[timber pond]

Man I can agree with star on something😭

[sweet shale]

we understand how this is misogynistic right

[tepid mountain]

This has to be bait, there’s no way.

[sweet shale]

star has a history of bait

[sinful nimbus]

In the same way Aragorn represents positive masculinity

[pale narwhal]

we've literally had female kings in real life

[lapis creek]

whos aragorn

[timber pond]

Bruh

[sinful nimbus]

Google it

[lapis creek]

no

[muted lantern]

what has this conversation even turned into

[sweet shale]

no way

[muted lantern]

are we still on the thks gender?

[timber pond]

Dude ever heard of Lord of the rings?😭

[sinful nimbus]

Aragorn is a lord of the rings character and has pretty widely been celebrated as a masculine icon

[tepid mountain]

Oh, that’s Star?

[lapis creek]

you need to be able to tell me what you mean by this without some kind of analogy you cant possibly have been thinking about aragorn the entire time

[sinful nimbus]

I don't

[sweet shale]

i think since they have a will they can identify as whatever they want

[sinful nimbus]

I haven't baited for months

[sweet shale]

this is what history means

[lapis creek]

yes i just dont know how it supports this point

[timber pond]

Becoming a King is a Masculine identity

It is not a negative thing

[muted lantern]

at this point its a boy who cried wolf situation lmao, people are always gonna assume you are baiting

[sinful nimbus]

The Knight becomes a masculine icon (king) that embraces good ideals and its emotional nature instead of trying to repress it deep down like The Hollow Knight did (Which is representative of toxic masculinity)

[sinful nimbus]

Well I can't control the beliefs of irrational actors

[visual glacier]

The knight is genderless

[sinful nimbus]

That's a deliberate detail yes

[visual glacier]

That much is 100% canon

[sinful nimbus]

Because it only becomes a man during the events of the game

[muted lantern]

every character in hollow knight is genderless, only hornet has a gender, clearly, shes the gendered child.

[sinful nimbus]

Oh and you say I'm baiting

[visual glacier]

It’s obviously a joke

[sinful nimbus]

But this is a serious discussion channel

[timber pond]

They cant understand that a genderless chracter can lean more toward being a man or woman depending on what they chose😭

[pale narwhal]

no

[muted lantern]

you do realize that line was a joke my brother, obvs everyone is not genderless

[pale narwhal]

why cant you accept that a character can be called a king and still be genderless

[pale narwhal]

the whole point of the vessels is that they dont choose

[unique canopy]

If there's hard evidence of that sure, but "king automatically means male" is historically incorrect.

[sinful nimbus]

Why would you put a genderless character in your game and then have it gendered in a story crucial moment

[lapis creek]

i wouldnt say the knight literally becomes a man even though it rejects some traits associated with toxic masculinity

[sinful nimbus]

That can't be an accident

[pale narwhal]

see: king Mary of hungary

[muted lantern]

didnt say you were, just that peeps are gonna believe you were lol

[lapis creek]

in a literal sense it remains genderless from beginning to end