sk-lore

[lone folio]

No but how would THK be the protagonist

[stray fog]

Its a very popular idea

When it comes to the protagonist of a third game

[unique canopy]

If that happens then the rune focus wouldn't be a starting ability, since it's PV only and not something the infected HK uses. It'd be something learned late into the game, if at all. Starting HK would have a very basic moveset since the infection would be purged and they're missing an arm.

[unique canopy]

It's speculated because of EtV/DF showing what looked like THK leaving the Black Egg, startling Hornet

[stray fog]

A Prosthetic arm would be metal as hell 🔥

A Prosthetic arm made of steel....

[stray fog]

(not my original idea, I got it from the yak guy in this server)

[unique canopy]

More attached to the kingdom, decreed crown princess since her half-brother would be sealed away. Tries to fight to preserve what's left of the kingdom, which leads to hunting down and killing the infected as they begin to show up. When we meet her in the game she still considers herself princess of Hallownest, fighting for its revival, until TK getting the King's Brand finally makes her admit reality. She'd be more possessive of Deepnest considering it part of the kingdom due to her heritage, and would be aloof toward the Hive. She might end up partially trained by the Mantis Lords, due to the truce.

[lone folio]

But etv isnt confirmed to be canon and I doubt they will make any ending the canon one

[cedar skiff]

oooohhh this is fun

[unique canopy]

lol they said the same thing about THK and Siblings endings before Silksong released, if they think they could make a good game out of it then they would

[cedar skiff]

i wonder how her relationship with tk would be after it gets the kings brand in that case

and even anyway

would her resentment for the vessels early on be all the same or maybe even worse

[lone folio]

Also playing as THK is gonna be a bit unfair to the enemies and bosses unless he goes to city of steel then they may have a chance

[stray fog]

Someone theorized that the steel masters would compress thk and makr them weak (playable)

[lone folio]

Like he's a tall void based pale higher being with a nail as big as 3 common bugs with the ability to use soul and teleport around so unless he gets heavily nerfed or if we play as him when he was smol then everything is gonna be either much too easy or everything will be so difficult that silksong will be seen as the tutorial to that game

[unique canopy]

If there's a game where THK is the protagonist then I wouldn't want that simply because we've already had two games of smaller evasive protags, I'd want something that makes them feel like a raw powerhouse.

[stray fog]

They didn't have time to go to any kingdoms when they were small

[lone folio]

Well then we play as an unstoppable monster :/

[stray fog]

Team cherry can pull something off if they really want to make a thk game. They're the ones who make the entire lore anyway

[heavy gyro]

Steel masters are said to be very strong so maybe they'd be an equal match

[lone folio]

Also we have already played as a vessel. Kind of boring if we play as one again no? Like we go from a vessel to Weaver to vessel again??

[unique canopy]

Keep in mind this would be THK post-Infection, without the refined ability of PV. They wouldn't be unstoppable if the player gets too reckless, they should just feel powerful in a way TK and Hornet don't

[lone folio]

I would rather we play as a new kind of bug instead of vessels again

[unique canopy]

More of a traditional action game in terms of what the protag can do.

[stray fog]

If thk is an impure vessel, then could they develop the ability to speak by the end of the game🤔

[lone folio]

Oh yeah we are gonna get to play as a bad postured one armed vessel with a head injury. Hell yeah!

[lone folio]

No vessel is pure

[unique canopy]

This but unironically

[heavy gyro]

Well it would probably be powerless at the start due to some made up reason

Actually it waking up from being infected for too long is already a reason

[lone folio]

That's their entire thing. They were thought of as pure but in reality they were all flawed and would of not worked no matter what pk did

[heavy gyro]

I think the "no voice to cry suffering" is literal

As in they don't have vocal chords

[stray fog]

🔥

[lone folio]

I don't think any bug has vocal cords

[stray fog]

The point was that thk might be biologically incapable of speaking

[stray fog]

Apart from having almost no mind, will, etc

[lone folio]

Yeah that is defently the case

I mean the rest of whatever pk says is kind of inaccurate since no vessel is perfect and they infact do have minds to think and wills to break so who knows maybe they just never get taught how to speak

[halcyon merlin]

i mean

aren't they kinda like hollow inside

because of the void

no way to talk!!

[stray fog]

We never see vessels make any noise vocally

[viscid ridge]

I think theoretically that a pure vessel is possible, but the way to uphold its purity is very shaky

[stray fog]

A baby who doesn't know any languages still makes noises

[lone folio]

Hollow knight scream just not existing

[stray fog]

I forgor 💀

[lone folio]

OH WAIT

[blissful harbor]

thst is Rad’s scream

pure vessel doesn’t scream

[lone folio]

He does?

Does he??

[blissful harbor]

same with broken vessel

[blissful harbor]

it doesn’t, it makes a shockwave but no actual sound

just the music

[halcyon merlin]

yeah

[lone folio]

Oh he doesn't

[stray fog]

Bro screams ultrasonically

[lone folio]

Dang I just remember pv doing the scream animation

But yeah no he just like triggers a song

He screams in orchestra

[pale pier]

higuys

why do gloomsacs and architects look similar

[stray fog]

?

Do they

[pale pier]

NOT

ARCHITECTS

[lone folio]

They have four eyes

That's about it

[pale pier]

wait yes

[viscid ridge]

I think in the normal Hollow Knight ending, that the knight did not learn of loss and love of a father, making it a pure vessel. Even the white lady comments that it doesn't have the same flaws as the hollow knight (which i interpret as not having emotions for anything) but after seeing its past, and seeing how it was abandoned, it became tainted by an idea instilled, but instead of it being love for a father, its sad it got abandoned. So in the sealed sibling, and dream no more endings it was most definitely not hollow

This is very shaky though so dont take it as gospel

[pale pier]

architects melody

[pale pier]

true

[pale pier]

pretty much but this goes in #hk-lore

[stray fog]

We were speculating about a third game

[pale pier]

ohhhhh

woudlthat be

about

[viscid ridge]

I was contributing to the conversation, i just took a long time to type lmao

The conversation changed already

[pale pier]

ohh kk sorry

[heavy gyro]

The knight has a will even before voidheart because of Jinn's comment

[viscid ridge]

Oh what does she say?

[random harbor]

Jinn - General - Refusing trade

...It refuses to trade...? It has a will... all Its own. Can refuse. Jinn will keep waiting... until a gift comes.

@senrisulfr used /npcs merchants name: Jinn category: General dialogue: Refusing trade

Jinn - General - Refusing trade

...It refuses to trade...? It has a will... all Its own. Can refuse. Jinn will keep waiting... until a gift comes.

@theplasma used /npcs merchants name: Jinn category: General dialogue: Refusing trade

[heavy gyro]

Whoops

Someone already sent it

[viscid ridge]

Oh thats interesting

[timber pond]

The steel hearts would definitely fulfill some thematic elements for a third game in this franchise. Alot like how lace,phantom and Second Sentinel do.

[lean temple]

A third game with a Steelheart as the protagonist maybe

[timber pond]

Nah i just mean as NPCS.

[lean temple]

Oh!

[timber pond]

Hornet ain't hollow.

[lean temple]

Well they will definitely be back for Steel Soul Mode 3

[timber pond]

Second sentinel, Lace and phantom all have themes of "what it means to be hollow"

[lean temple]

Unless the Masters are confronted in ss dlc

[timber pond]

With Zis diolouge it would continue that trend.

Because Steelhearts seem to "Lack" emotion

[lean temple]

They have a little emotion but it seems very suppressed

[timber pond]

They are not perceived that way though is the thing.

[lean temple]

Zi does show some care for Sula after she gets the "thought complex"

[timber pond]

If you take Sulas word

[lean temple]

Ik that's why I said that it's suppressed

But they are capable of caring for others

Hell Zi says she wouldn't wish compression on anyone else bcz of how horrible it is

[timber pond]

They would be fitting NPCS For a THK arc if you think about it.

Because he was like that as well

Perceived by others to be hollow ,but it was merely a suppression by the system

Or higher figure

[lean temple]

We'll have to first see what silksong does with Steel

I don't think they'll wrap up the Masters but I hope they don't

It kinda means the end of Steel Soul mode

And we still have Sharpe and gang

[timber pond]

If they are ever going to make another mode for silksong, it would be Silk Soul mode

Wich feels like it would just be Celeste Side B but for the whole game lol

[lean temple]

They scrapped it to further the Steel subplot

The Masters have this overarching presence that's being built up

[timber pond]

The thing is, I dont think they would make the steel subplot steel soul exclusive is the thing. Mabye it would have uniqe interactions. But I doubt it would be exclusive.

[lean temple]

Yeah maybe that's why they cut Sharpe

[timber pond]

Like even if we do Get a DLC it will probably just set them up even further lol

[lean temple]

They're still figuring out how to make it mesh while Steel Soul exists

Steel Soul sets up the Masters being angry at Hornet for letting Sula escape

Which leads to Sharpe and gang, but reconciling it with classic mode is gonna be weird

#sk-help or the wiki are a better place for this question

[dark dragon]

i noticed, wrong chat

[drifting apex]

Are void and soul mutually destructive

[stray fog]

Yes

[viscid ridge]

The frail false higher being in atla

Shes not imprisoned, she is to frail to exist outside her iron shell

So if she leaves she would die

Its because she is able to read peoples crests

[heavy gyro]

What even is a vesticrest lorewise

[viscid ridge]

Probably just a type of crest that doesn't change between crests

Like a part of the personality that doesn't change

[spark reef]

can we save pilby in the game?

[lean temple]

Changing crests itself is likely not something anyone can just do. Hornet's Wyrm side likely helps her to do that

[lilac hedge]

Dont progress in the game

And thats it

[lean temple]

Don't accept skull tyrant wish in act 1

[sinful nimbus]

Yes but he disappears later anyway

[cedar skiff]

hold up his writing is this fire

vesticrests being representative of hornets growth literally and as a character is awesome

[lean temple]

He leaves to pilgrim's rest. Make sure not to let the rhinogrund out either

[sleek lily]

I'm on my switch 2 playthrough and I just noticed there's a dead Underworks worker in top shellwood

[unique canopy]

The spikes and buzzsaws above it look like the Underworks ones, and above that room is the spike and buzzsaw area that leads to Delver's Drill and the left side of the Father of the Flame bell

[sleek lily]

Oh, so it's like the convergence point between Underworks, Shellwood and Wisp Thicket (+ Bellhart)

[sinful nimbus]

The way Shellwood/Bellhart/Greymoor/Underworks transition between eachother is so cool

Same with everything in the bonelands

[unique canopy]

There's a sizable distance between them, but there's also a lot of areas where the distances don't match up perfectly so I wouldn't take this as an accurate depiction of the distance between the two

[sleek lily]

I also love how there are so many bell in the rooms above or below bell stations

[sleek lily]

Wow thank you for this! Do you have a link or is this with debug?

[unique canopy]

https://scripterswar.com/silksong/map

[sleek lily]

Also by the way I discovered pollip hearts are inspired on figs

The description for Pollip Hearts reads: Core of a flower formed around the body of a consumed Wood Wasp.

While wasps have a similar thing going on with figs

[unique canopy]

Thankfully eating figs doesn't cause you to fart poison irl

[sleek lily]

Sooooooo basically Greyroot is asking you for figs

[lean temple]

Finally this was made lol

[regal crow]

Why’s conchflies still around? They’re the only coral tower enemies found in present day

[dry bridge]

there's still a little bit of coral around for them to hang out in even though there's not enough to support the whole nation of karak

[viscid ridge]

Hornet mentions that the sands of karak returned to nature. My guess is that the conchflies were always there, no matter if there was water or not.

[regal crow]

Ahhhhh

[edgy nebula]

karak lore would be so good if we got an explanation for crustcrags in the memorium

[inner torrent]

The one that gives you a bunch of shell frags right

I discovered too in my last playthrough on my bf's laptop

[mint stratus]

I don’t believe bilewater will stay polluted forever with the citadel no longer producing waste

[pale narwhal]

well karak's problem isnt a lack of coral its the lack of water
which seems to be a recurring theme

Karak lost its water
Bilewater's got polluted

[unique canopy]

If Hornet is right then the Citadel tried to artificially grow it hoping it would survive in such a limited environment.

Nature distorted... This bug was born tiny and mild. The Citadel deformed it in futile hope it may sustain.

Its Needolin dialogue might imply that it was subjected to silk experiments in Whiteward too, mentioning "False chambers... long teeth..."

[timber pond]

we need to ask them. Quick, dump water on Karak!

I find it hilarious that we could potentially just solve thier problem if we dump water on them

[mint stratus]

Depends on if they’re super duper calcified or not

[unique canopy]

Dumping water on a desert can in some ways be even more disastrous than drying it up to begin with. The environment has lost the natural ability to retain that water, and new wildlife has moved in to take advantage of the dry and crusty biome which would be wiped out if it went back to being aquatic.

[timber pond]

Nah im just saying dump it on the dudes

[inner torrent]

Do you think gleamflies are stronger than lumaflies?

[narrow horizon]

time to invade

[granite sleet]

time to conquer

[barren beacon]

I am all of me

[narrow horizon]

🔥

[barren beacon]

Can you explain what you're trying to say now

[granite sleet]

o:

[atomic lodge]

yes

[narrow horizon]

Toasted is confused about you saying DNM being canon to Silksong even though Void Given Focus does not appear in DNM

I think

[inner torrent]

What's dnm?

[barren beacon]

I mean The Flash of Void Given Focus can be confusing, so I understand it a bit

[granite sleet]

dream no more

[narrow horizon]

Dream no more, the hk ending

[narrow horizon]

Which is why most people say EtV is canon to Sk while DNM isn't, or at least it's "more canon" whatever that means

[granite sleet]

I think that embrace the void makes more sense

[atomic lodge]

Embrace makes more sense for Silksonh

[granite sleet]

its like wich one makes more sense

Wich in this case it would prob be embrace

[narrow horizon]

[atomic lodge]

It's a little wierd how the canon ending is one that was added like, a year after the game came out, but i still think Embrace is canon

[narrow horizon]

*to silksong

because as i have said several times

all hk endings are canon

[granite sleet]

atp team cherry just does whatever they want

[lethal burrow]

as opposed to zoteboat

[granite sleet]

i dont understand why dyna said that dream no more is more canon

ig

[narrow horizon]

that takes place after the secret ending for obtaining 57^57 score in eternal ordeal

💀

[granite sleet]

i mean you do get a cool background at 57

some how i have 122 procented the game basically beat it in steel soul and gotten almost all achievements and all endings but i cant for the live of my get that back ground piece

@barren beacon so like why do you think that dream no more is canon

[atomic lodge]

how did we get to Eternal Ordeal from which ending is Silksong canon

?

[granite sleet]

zote boat

zote boat

zote boat

also

[atomic lodge]

why did you say it thrice

[granite sleet]

how weak is zote

[atomic lodge]

weak

[granite sleet]

.

[atomic lodge]

that sounds wrong

[granite sleet]

good lord

whatever you get the point

zote boat thrice

as it should be

anyway so we can agee

agree that

embrace the void makes sense

[atomic lodge]

yes

[granite sleet]

yes?

okay

[atomic lodge]

yes we can

[granite sleet]

great

🙏

[atomic lodge]

Dream no more makes sense but i think Embrace makes a little more sense

[narrow horizon]

and as per the original questions, we can also agree that all endings are canon

Correct?

[atomic lodge]

Correct. We are just refering to Silksong

[narrow horizon]

Good

👍

[atomic lodge]

How could we forget about Passing of the Age?

[granite sleet]

oh

[atomic lodge]

im making a joke if you couldnt tell

[narrow horizon]

🍄

[granite sleet]

a grub could beat herald in a fight

[atomic lodge]

i think so yeah

[granite sleet]

it could EAT him

[atomic lodge]

he doesnt look to strong

Mister Mushroom boss fight would be peak

[elfin lark]

So I encountered savage beastly for the first time
Is it even worth to defeat him?

Fly

[narrow horizon]

weird spot to be asking for help, but it unlocks a new crest to use so if you wanna do that sure

other than that you can ignore it until later

[elfin lark]

Optional?

[narrow horizon]

yes, not needed to beat the game

[timber pond]

Well to be honest, I want team cherry to expand on The Hollow Knight Living in Embrace the void. So unless they make a game about idk, the fucking twisted root ending in 2040(😂 ) i would think ETV will be "Cannon" to the rest of the series at this point.

[narrow horizon]

just needed for percent completion and if you want to use beast crest

[narrow horizon]

🐰⏱️

all hk endings are canon

[elfin lark]

I won't waste my time with him atleast for now

[narrow horizon]

but they do not all lead to silksong

they just have different outcomes that we don't know about

but they are still canon

[narrow horizon]

👍

[timber pond]

Im defining "Cannon" by what i can see afterwards. So I'll belive that when Im 60 years old and they make games off of every ending

[barren beacon]

That isn't needed

THK probably got killed by the bugs that kidnapped hornet though, trust

[timber pond]

Why would team cherry even show him living on a clifhanger lol.

[barren beacon]

They feel like it

[timber pond]

Just make an MsPaint animation of him getting muted at that pojt

[barren beacon]

Do not question the Mighty Australians

[timber pond]

I just dont buy it

Its like

Anti cope

[inner torrent]

I feel like hornet and knight are actually two faces of the same shell

[timber pond]

What

[narrow horizon]

all hk endings and sk endings are canon because it is a piece of media that exists with alternative outcomes, just because they lead to less things or they lead to outcomes that haven't been explored doesn't mean they aren't canon

[elfin lark]

Were the bug/s the hornet encountered in the last scene the ones who kidnapped him?

[narrow horizon]

prolly nah

[visual glacier]

What

[elfin lark]

I mean her

[visual glacier]

The bugs who kidnapped hornet are envoys

[elfin lark]

So we still don't know who

[timber pond]

Yeah sure I can agree to that. But I just want them to expand on THK because they made that cutscene for a reason that is yet to be expounded upon. Like how the Everbloom was in the flower ending.

[barren beacon]

We literally see who they were

In the first 2 minutes of the Game

[timber pond]

And it makes sense, for it to be ETV again in this case

[elfin lark]

I'm not talking about those

[narrow horizon]

hyper is talking about the end of the EtV cutscene

the bug that approaches Hornet outside of the black egg temple

[barren beacon]

THK?

[elfin lark]

absolutely

[narrow horizon]

he's asking whether that bug is related to the bugs who kidnap her and start silksong

[barren beacon]

I think It's safe to say no

[lone folio]

Honestly that's an interesting idea though I'm not sure about dnm having it's own game since it seems like they made both be canon in silksong. And even if one is Canon and the other isn't what does it change? Either way the knight is in the void and has an army of siblings and he's either become shade lord already or slowly becoming him. Thk is just not gonna show upp since there's nowhere where he would make sense

[narrow horizon]

Yeah lol

[elfin lark]

So even silksong didnt answer our questions

[barren beacon]

It was The Hollow Knight.

The bug that walked out of the black egg temple and Hornet got ready to fight in EtV was The Hollow Knight.

[narrow horizon]

hornet blind as shit for not noticing it leave the BET 💔

[elfin lark]

Is it confirmed? What happened after that? We don't know

[narrow horizon]

UNTIL it was RIGHT THERE in front of her

[barren beacon]

Yes. We don't know. Yes

[elfin lark]

That's what I'm talking about

[barren beacon]

To be fair Vessels can be pretty silent

[lone folio]

Yeah unless they have god inside them then they scream like crazy

[narrow horizon]

this is true but it's clearly making noise and Hornet is an expert hunter and she's kinda just goated in general

too distracted by the funny vines changing color ig

[barren beacon]

probably awe?

[narrow horizon]

maybe she was doing some plasmium to pass the time and clear her head

[barren beacon]

To be fair Hornet MAY Have had used Plasmium before

[elfin lark]

She's old asf I guess

[barren beacon]

She was remiscing about the thousands of mate she had trust

Reminiscing

How the fuck do you say it

[lone folio]

I doubt she would in hallownest

[narrow horizon]

around the same age as the vessels

[barren beacon]

We don't know if she had a rebel phase. Hell she was using Slurs like "Shaw"

[narrow horizon]

exactly

[lone folio]

I still find shaw being a slur halerious

[barren beacon]

Halerious indeed

[elfin lark]

Based on the ending of silksong I wonder how the 3rd game will be

[ornate pier]

Hollow knight silksilksong with lace

[lilac hedge]

Not in hk univrse

[narrow horizon]

zoatboat

[elfin lark]

I can understand what is going on and I can't at the same time

[elfin lark]

Zote is goated

[lone folio]

Oh actually there was a time in hallownest when it wasn't taboo

[ornate pier]

Zoatboat will finally confirm greyroot being zote's mom

[elfin lark]

Could zote survive pharloom?

[lone folio]

Oh no Hornet did blue juice in rebel phase confirmed.. WE CAN'T LET GAME THEORY FIND OUT ABOUT THIS

[ornate pier]

Only if hornet saves his ass

[lone folio]

Yes'nt

[ornate pier]

Like the knight does

[lone folio]

If Hornet is there to save him yes if no then defently not

[elfin lark]

Nah you know nothing about him, he's goated

We will see he's true potential when 3rd game releases

Just wait for 2032

Team Cherry told me

he is the reason for all this

[ornate pier]

If so then this is because of greyroot

Because she is actually his mom

[elfin lark]

He was acting weak.. just to let the knight shine

[narrow horizon]

that's just a loose fan theory

💔

[lone folio]

he was getting beaten by a king vengefly and while it is a pretty big monster it's nothing compared to your usual threat in pharloom. Like if he entered pharloom by himself he would either fall down into moss Grotto and die or he lands on his horns no fall damage and gets picked off by moss mother. If the stone bridge from pharloom gate isn't destroyed he makes his way into shellwood and of he by some miracle makes it past that he gets through bellhart where he's easy prey for someone like Widow and then he gets to greymoor where moorwing kills him. He has no chance of survival

[narrow horizon]

all we know is his weapon is made from shellwood, he's from outside of hallownest, he's weak as shit, and he had a bad relationship with his mother

[elfin lark]

As I said @lone folio

[lone folio]

And then when he is gpz he's actually trying or what?

[inner torrent]

I fear it will probably be linked to no character we know, but some far kingdom that hasn't felt the pressure of pale beings

[ornate pier]

No gng Ari Gibson told me it's real in a dream

[elfin lark]

Man just wait and u will see

[narrow horizon]

prequel about Quirrel before returning to hallownest 🗣🔥

[lone folio]

Well that's not all.. "I'll kill a thousand more...Will that be enough, father?" -zote dream nail dialogue from the colloseum

[narrow horizon]

that has nothing to do with pharloom or greyroot so i left it out

[lone folio]

You left out something important to his lore

[narrow horizon]

mb

[timber pond]

Steel city kidnapping him because of his void nature is all that I can think of that makes sense

[lone folio]

I know deep down that the city will try and capture the knight and then.. Who knows :)

[barren beacon]

Masters vs The Knight gonna go hard

Also Lord I'm so glad there's no more slow mode

[narrow horizon]

🙏

[timber pond]

The only places that make sense are ones that relate to void. Team chery had hornet come to pharloom because of her nature. So the only requirement for a Main chracter thusefar is what thier nature is

[timber pond]

The Hollow knight. Though void given focus fighting the masters would be sick. Even though idk what that would look like lol

Like what bug do you think the masters would be based on

[lone folio]

Wait I just realised that all of the theory about zote being greyroof are just false unless he is a vessel and the root remembers that part of his life when he was in the abyss and saw his father and wanted to prove himself to be better?? Seems far more unlikely them him just being a meme character

[timber pond]

If they aren't just some big shade

[inner torrent]

Do you think we will visit the steel city?

[barren beacon]

We pray that the Masters aren't void

That'd be pretty boring

[timber pond]

I mean team cherry are certainly only giving us points of conflict for it regardless of anyones opinion on it

[timber pond]

It would be interesting if they are actually thier own "VOID given focus" that looks diffrent. Because its a fusion of Acient civilization shades.

Because that would mean AC changed thier philosophy on void

[narrow horizon]

Zote is not a vessel

and does not contain void

[lone folio]

That was a theoratical since I saw it on YouTube once and it's the only explanation that could make sense even though it's pretty stupid

[narrow horizon]

he isn't one

[lone folio]

Yeah I know

That's why I said it's stupid

[timber pond]

Mabye vessels are just how root children look and the only reason they are vessels is because they got that void in them lol

[narrow horizon]

real

[narrow horizon]

what does this even mean 💔

[lone folio]

Afcourse...

It's all root

Everything is root

[celest spruce]

I have a question, when hornet die she back to Life on the Seat in the cano it is Like she would be in the Steel soul every time, she doesnt really die

[limpid summit]

Yes

[timber pond]

Like root children are just little dudes with white heads . Pretty silly but eh I guess I could accept it.

[limpid summit]

As far as that gameplay mechanic yeah she does not canonically revive

[timber pond]

Its either A foresight while she's resting or B it don't happen

[lone folio]

She never dies in canon but the cocoon she leaves behind can be used for lore speculation mainly in discussion about "regrets"

[lone folio]

Could be foresight but then like there's a physical thing in the world that she leaves behind and that's pretty wierd

So unlikely even if she is half wyrm

[timber pond]

Perhaps its something only she can see

Thats all I got lol

[inner torrent]

Zote is void
Hornet is void
Lace is a child

[lone folio]

Otherwise that's like me making a dead corpse somewhere in the world using my imagination

[timber pond]

Lace is void AND a child

[inner torrent]

Both by force

[lone folio]

Hornets secret power is using her imagination to make corpses of herself

[timber pond]

Well she chose to dive into the void tbf

[timber pond]

"Hehe I wrap myself in cocoon"

[narrow horizon]

Zote isn't void.
Hornet is complicated.
Lace isn't reallyy a child? like she is but not really, she was made to look like one and she can't age, but she isn't reallyy a child because she isn't a bug or creature that ages

[lone folio]

It's a joke

[narrow horizon]

she acts like one cuz she's a top tier hornet rage baiter

[sinful nimbus]

"Silk spun child"

Not that deep

[lone folio]

Unlike my next statement: sealed siblings is Canon to silksong

[narrow horizon]

💀💀💀

[narrow horizon]

silk in the form of a child

Not an actual child

[sinful nimbus]

No its a child that was spun from silk

[lone folio]

Nono silk was used to make a child

It's a child of silk

[sinful nimbus]

What kinda mental gymnastics is this she's a creature that was specifically made to never age IE a child

[lone folio]

That's like if Pinocchio was actually just a very child shaped piece of wood instead of a child made of wood

[narrow horizon]

she doesn't age physically because she barely counts as a living thing if we're being fr

[sinful nimbus]

Bro hasn't beaten Lace 2

[narrow horizon]

yes i have 💔

[sinful nimbus]

Did you read the dialogue because its affirming that she's a living person despite her unique creation

[inner torrent]

Isn't lace 2 when lace explicitly says she was faking the whole child facade?

[lone folio]

Then you didn't read

[sinful nimbus]

No it is not

[inner torrent]

It kinda is

[sinful nimbus]

Read the dialogue its on the wiki [[Lace]]

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Lace

[inner torrent]

Indeed a real person, not a permanent baby doll for her mother to play dollhouse

[sinful nimbus]

Children are people

[lone folio]

Also this exists: "A bug born entirely of thread. Much Silk would have been needed to see her sustained. A fragile form of life, but life nonetheless."

[inner torrent]

And people grow

[narrow horizon]

she's a living being, but she doesn't age

[sinful nimbus]

Not creatures magically created not to grow

[narrow horizon]

she stays the way she was created

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

[narrow horizon]

yes

🗣

[lone folio]

And pay taxes

[inner torrent]

Can something that doesn't grow even be considered a child?

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

The game repeatedly affirms that she is one its not deep

[inner torrent]

Omg Dyno leave me alone

[inner torrent]

And also it contradicts it

[sinful nimbus]

How

[timber pond]

Do Pinocchio grow? Because thats effectively what she is.

[narrow horizon]

her form is that of a child but she herself is a living thing that experiences life and ages through that experience, even if her body doesn't age

so she's a child

[sinful nimbus]

Her mind is also still a childs as caretaker points out

[inner torrent]

If she is a child this would also mean phantom is

[sinful nimbus]

Assuming she was created with the same properties yes

[inner torrent]

In no way can her mind be a children one

[sinful nimbus]

Why not

[timber pond]

Like if anything, the lace net shippers should do Pinochiox lace or something💀 (kidding)

[inner torrent]

Because she literally states she is pretending to be a child, ergo, her mindset is not of one, you cant pretend to be a child while being a child

[narrow horizon]

i think that point is stretched a lil, she's definitely beyond the maturity of a child and she absolutely resents her eternal childhood, she seems to be much more advanced than the brain of a child

[sinful nimbus]

She never states she's pretending to be a child you made that up

[inner torrent]

Imo team cherry should have never implemented this whole children stuff

[sinful nimbus]

She never does anything particularly smart throughout the game

[timber pond]

I mean, physical growth is tied to mental growth is the thing. The lost boys and Peter pan stay children and continue to act like them even though time is passing.

[sinful nimbus]

Idk why you'd have to be an adult to do what she does in-game

[inner torrent]

Specially if she was going to make lace have similar aspect to hornet, that was really out of place

[sinful nimbus]

What?

[inner torrent]

What I said, I call team cherry weirdos for even playing with this trend of the child body but 1000 years old thing

[sinful nimbus]

But she's not sexualized

The only people who are weird about this is the fandom

[timber pond]

Finaly something I can 100% agree on

[inner torrent]

The concept itself is gross, just don't do it

[sinful nimbus]

How is that gross

[timber pond]

Ppl made up some ship and we're like "No she cant be a child my shop is ruined!!1!!"

[inner torrent]

Just don't play with the idea of a child body with an adult mind, specially if your protagonist has the same aspect and is an adult

[timber pond]

Is Peter pan or Pinocchio gross?

[unique canopy]

Lace is developmentally stunted enough on an emotional level that whether she's legally 18 years old or not is honestly really not all that relevant to her character. There are more than enough adults like that in real life.

[sinful nimbus]

She doesn't have an adult mind she has a child mind

[inner torrent]

Peter pan and Pinocchio are at least consistent

[sinful nimbus]

She explicitly has the body and mind of a child

[inner torrent]

No adult looks like them

[inner torrent]

And also explicitly not

[timber pond]

Peter pan is an adult acting wildly inconsistently to keep pepole children😭

[sinful nimbus]

No the game is very consistent about this

[inner torrent]

??? No???

[sinful nimbus]

You have never substantiated your claims about the game contradicting this point idk what you're waffling about

[inner torrent]

Well, depends of the version

[timber pond]

In the original book yes

[sinful nimbus]

(Also people with childlike bodies and adult minds exist irl due to certain medical conditions so that's not gross in the first place)

[narrow horizon]

what???

[inner torrent]

Life? You're too generous! This weak, wasting existence. This was not life, just a husk shaped to act as a child.
Hornet: Yours was life, pale one. Do not confuse your unique creation with its absence. I have seen others make the same mistake.

the whole calling her way to act a facade and hornet changing from calling her child to pale one.

[inner torrent]

I feel it's just a plot that doesn't add much to the game and could have been changed very easily

[sinful nimbus]

She explicitly says she's silk mimicking a child so ???

Reading comprehension devil

[inner torrent]

Mimicking

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet continues calling her child too

[sinful nimbus]

Lace doesn't consider herself to be an alive being yes

But she is that's the point of the interaction

[timber pond]

Yeah, like how a robot is programed. Like mabye the robot can evolve to think outside of that at somepoint, but its OG directive shapes who it is

[narrow horizon]

She still calls her a child later, she just said "pale one" here so she wouldn't be referring to her as child over and over when she's trying to prove she has life beyond being a silk toy made to resemble a child

[inner torrent]

Does that even make sense in a game that shows robots with conscious?

[timber pond]

Thats the thing , they can still evolve and change but thier nature is thier nature

[sinful nimbus]

Lace isn't comparable to a robot but robots in this game are all piloted by souls of previously alive bugs

[narrow horizon]

it's not even really part of the plot?? We don't actually know the age of Lace in terms of how many years ago GMS made her (from what ik of) so she could be a child² for all we know

[inner torrent]

Actually we do

[sinful nimbus]

Its a fine character arc about accepting your life's value in spite of your unique traits idk why people dislike it so much

[timber pond]

Like silk can RECORD memories and play them back. So I assume lace is an intricate spell based on the many functions silk provides, similar to whatever reason the paleking used it in kinsmoukd creation as seen in his workstation in white palace.

[timber pond]

True

[sinful nimbus]

Although unlike Kingsmoulds she's an autonomous and truly sentient being

[timber pond]

Alright tell me , what unit of time have you discovered? I sure would like to know lol. Since its a point of contention for putting together events in this series.

[inner torrent]

Because it's very stupid, she is basically a eriol hiraagizawa handed different, the concept won't change from being weird.

[sinful nimbus]

I don't know who that is and I don't care

[narrow horizon]

she is not

😭

[sinful nimbus]

There's nothing weird about it if you don't make it weird

[narrow horizon]

you're stretching the importance placed on Lace's age (basically none)

[timber pond]

Yeah that's why I said I think its a multitude/all of the spells silk can do in one somehow.

[sinful nimbus]

A lot of importance is placed on it

[narrow horizon]

i mean in terms of her being an adult in a kids body or whatever weird shit this dude is trying to accuse tc of

[sinful nimbus]

Well yes no importance is placed on that because its completely made up

[narrow horizon]

^

[sinful nimbus]

Lace is an eternal child in both body and mind

[spark valve]

Lace being an eternal child isn’t remotely problematic in the way silksong treats her

[sinful nimbus]

It'd be an issue if she was sexualized at all

But she's not

[spark valve]

That’s just fans being weird

[timber pond]

Well TBF nothing in hollow knightt is arguably

[narrow horizon]

she just speaks fancy and acts mature because of the world that she exists in, but it doesn't make her an adult or adult-like in maturity

[spark valve]

She doesn’t act mature she acts like a child

[narrow horizon]

in comparison to most regular children*

[inner torrent]

I just feel its not a topic they should handle when they can't differentiate ages through their art style

[spark valve]

It’s handled fine

[timber pond]

Dude that's just every chracter though. They all speak proper.

[narrow horizon]

It's a topic you're completely making up

[sinful nimbus]

OK but Lace is called child in the first interaction with her

[inner torrent]

How I'm supposed to take the "body of a child" seriously when she is basically the same shape as hornet

[narrow horizon]

that's what i'm saying

[timber pond]

Even gremlins like benjin and crull speak somewhat properly lol

[wise sand]

Why does everybody keep saying this

[sinful nimbus]

Put the glasses on dawg

[wise sand]

She literally acts the exact same in act 3

[sinful nimbus]

She's clearly a different species

[spark valve]

They make it up

[unique canopy]

Honestly I don't even think she needs to be an eternal child in mind. She's emotionally developmentally stunted with mommy issues, but her lack of development is mostly due to her own hangups. She can mature emotionally, if she tries to.

[inner torrent]

Shakra literally states it, she looks like a child

[narrow horizon]

yes

[narrow horizon]

because she's short

[wise sand]

Bro what

[inner torrent]

Let me check something from her dialogues

[spark valve]

Shakra does not state that lace is pretending to be a child

[obsidian owl]

Do we even have a clue about how she can appear above the abyss water surface, while she says she isn't herself? That almost looks like a Hornet hallucination

[narrow horizon]

hornet is quite obviously not a child in any way

[wise sand]

Are we talking about hornet

[unique canopy]

Hornet does correct her in the first meeting, Shakra calls her a child anyway. But this is unrelated to Lace.

[wise sand]

Hornet corrects her

[obsidian owl]

*Caretaker

[narrow horizon]

he means hornet

[timber pond]

More void fuckery idk lol

[inner torrent]

I'm talking of hornet not lace

[wise sand]

Also shakra stops calling her a child after she gains respect

[narrow horizon]

yeah ik

[timber pond]

Mabye that's how the void interacted with the lighthouse keeper in HK abyss lol

[sinful nimbus]

Could be something like Wraiths and Phantom

[wise sand]

Idk

[sinful nimbus]

This would be kinda wonky in terms of her arc

[narrow horizon]

^

It has nothing to do with hornet looking like a child or being a child

[timber pond]

That too

[spark valve]

There’s also a difference between a character being explicitly wrong and shit like the meta text stating lace is a child

[inner torrent]

It definetly is an hallucination

[sinful nimbus]

She was created to act like a child and then is immediately said to be alive in spite of that trait so walking that back would be like 🥴

[wise sand]

Hornet doesn't call lace a child literally once in the whole game

[narrow horizon]

hornet isn't a child, doesn't look like a child to characters in the game, and has nothing to suggest that she could be mistaken for a child, so trying to make an argument that it's weird for tc to make Hornet an adult "in a kids body" is stupid

[spark valve]

That is the thing she calls her

[wise sand]

Hornet is obviously not a child

[terse warren]

Sad day for Lacenet stans

[wise sand]

Whats even about that

Argument

Oh wait ther3s no slow mode

[narrow horizon]

Aak @inner torrent and whatever shit he's been tryna say about tc being weird for having Lace be a kid

[inner torrent]

Hornet is not a child, his dad is just a short king with strong genes

[unique canopy]

She was life in spite of her existence as a being spun from silk. It's meant to be similar to the vessels being formed from void, hence Hornet's reaction. If she was actually life then she would have the ability to grow and mature, if she's going to remain a developmentally stunted child for her entire life then that by itself would be walking back her being life.

[wise sand]

Hornet and pk aren't even that short

[inner torrent]

They are lol

[wise sand]

They're taller than all the no names we see

[inner torrent]

I mean, shortness and talness aren't technically logical things

[spark valve]

Her being a child doesn’t make her not alive you just made that up

[sinful nimbus]

Take me back to when Caretaker x Churchkeeper was viable 😔

[wise sand]

They are pretty short for named characters tho

[narrow horizon]

Soo... people who are developmentally challenged aren't considered alive because they're not capable of maturing in certain ways?

[sinful nimbus]

Me watching Churchtaker Lacenet and Kitsune theory all leave me...

[inner torrent]

The vessels are alive though

[spark valve]

I didn’t say otherwise

[terse warren]

Me watching Coral Gorge leave me...

[spark valve]

But vessels are also… not the same thing as lace

[sinful nimbus]

This was not life, just a husk shaped to act as a child.
Lace is saying she is not life because she is A) made of silk and B) an eternal child
Both of these are traits stemming from the unique creation Hornet mentions

[inner torrent]

Technically speaking, like scienceful, lace is technically not alive right?

Like viruses, they are technically alive but not scientifically

[sinful nimbus]

Barnacle Bay

[wise sand]

I think its just A tbh

[sinful nimbus]

At least they didn't showcase the Submarines pre-release so that doesn't hurt as bad as it would've

[spark valve]

And hornet’s response is that in spite of that her life is real

[foggy fractal]

Me watching bugpipers leave me...

[spark valve]

It’s both

[wise sand]

Pharloom bay expansion dlc🗣️ 🔥

[sinful nimbus]

This was not life, just a husk shaped to act as a child.

[timber pond]

Nuh uh the cope for that one is stronger.

[sinful nimbus]

why did that spoil

[foggy fractal]

the wizards

[inner torrent]

I'm pretty sure coral forest is coming back

[timber pond]

Don't count on it broski

[inner torrent]

I feel like it will be used as a memory section like lost verdania.

[sinful nimbus]

If its not in 1.0 i don't care tbhhh

the ship has sailed...... heh ehh eheh get it

[timber pond]

did not play HK in 2017

The content is fine to go back to

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah I didn't

[timber pond]

When i did it at least

[sinful nimbus]

I did play Silksong on release year though

[wise sand]

Lowkey i was gonna say something against this but I forgot it so fair

[sinful nimbus]

And HK is uh not the holy grail for smooth 1.0 launches

[timber pond]

I know bro

[sinful nimbus]

That game was rushed and took 2 years Silksong was uh not

[wise sand]

Pharloom bay is real🔥

[timber pond]

What

[sinful nimbus]

What

[timber pond]

It was packaged complete on release

The extra content wasn't really needed from my perspective when I first played it

Same with Skong

[sinful nimbus]

The boss room missing a boss:

[timber pond]

It was just cool lore to me really. Whole area felt sorta extra

But I don't mind extra

[wise sand]

The clearly breakable wall in bilewater that's not breakable:

[inner torrent]

The first dlc was literally a bug fix tho

It was kinda needed

[timber pond]

Not really that was lifeblood which came after grim troupe

Hidden dreams was first

Which added white defender and grey prince

[inner torrent]

Also, a dlc us kinda obligatory

There is no steel city, and that was kinda promised

[wise sand]

God home is gonna be in the bay trust

[timber pond]

No it was not, Sharpe is.

[inner torrent]

Right, still the same applies

[timber pond]

We didn't even know a Steel city existed before release

[timber pond]

2 diffrent things.

Sharpe can technically be anywhere they want him to be

[inner torrent]

The point is there is something promised and is not in the game

Ergo, dlc to add it

[obsidian owl]

No, nothing garantees it will release as a DLC (see... Silksong itself)

[inner torrent]

I mean, hollow knight dlc aren't much of dlc themselves

They were kind of just updates

[obsidian owl]

DLC is downloadable content, so it's just updates with content/gameplay so yes they were

[timber pond]

It was downloadable content

That is definitely what DLC Is

Dosent need to be any more really

[inner torrent]

I think that's a stretch, by that wouldn't any Minecraft update could be called free dlc?

Ok I think I got out of the use of this channel

[timber pond]

The term free DLC was always stupid Regardless. It was mostly updates and DLC is just a gaming buzzword to make paid things feel better to buy lol

[inner torrent]

What do you think home forests bone come from?

[lapis creek]

this is brave tbh

people were already saying they were both snail shamans and given how they work the chance of them all being cousins was reasonable

[sinful nimbus]

I didn't think they were shamans because that's stupid

[inner torrent]

Who is the caretaker tho?

Oh the citadel shaman?

[sinful nimbus]

They looked similar that was enough.... For one to love another so similar to themselves, is that selfless or vain?

[inner torrent]

I wouldn't be surprised if they canonically dated

[lapis creek]

oh wow another hollow knight fan who loves incest

[spark valve]

It happens quite a lot these days

[inner torrent]

They are siblings???

[obsidian owl]

"Down in the mosslands, still clinging to her failed chapel, my sister'll part with her power, if asked kind enough."

[sinful nimbus]

yeah they're siblings

[inner torrent]

I keep my standview though/hj

[obsidian owl]

Bellhart guy is the Caretaker's Uncle, Bilewater's one is his cousin

[lapis creek]

oh my god i thought they were cousins no they are actually siblings

[inner torrent]

Ok I take out what I said

[inner torrent]

Same

[lapis creek]

wait

[inner torrent]

What is this thing with shaman's having big genealogical trees?

Oh

How do I call a mod?

@balmy reef sorry this is my first time pinging a mod, but I think this is like not supposed to be sensed there? Or in any other place

[obsidian owl]

To call all of them you can @ Mods (without the space) but it's not clear if it's what we have to do

[sinful nimbus]

you're supposed to use the entire mod ping yeah

[inner torrent]

Thank you

Our names were always white?

[inner torrent]

Could it be a cultural thing? Maybe their long lifes and special nature's make them develop big bonds with their family

[obsidian owl]

They're not many, so they're related. Probably nothing deep

[obsidian owl]

Also, there doesn't seem to be any big bonds
We didn't have any clue of connections in HK (they seemed to all work in different fields and we see no contact) and in SK the cousin went alone to confront the tyrant of a region, then it took the apocalypse to bring them together

[inner torrent]

That sounds like a very traditional family to me lol

[timber pond]

Snail shamans family is big probably because they are old and ancient

[narrow horizon]

i have returned

did i miss anything stupid

[timber pond]

Wouldn't be surprised if they are Related to the Acient civilization in some way, mabye not directly but they might have existed since those times

[timber pond]

The shaman that's alive in HK mentions all the shamans you visit as cousins, aunts or distantly related

[narrow horizon]

i knew the church lady was a snail shaman since the start, and i was sus of shrine keeper guy for a long while

[narrow horizon]

probably a more special kind of species, with little to no cross breeding, making all of the limited snail shamans related in some way

[timber pond]

Yes, likely because thier shells can hoard and harness soul for spells in some way.

[narrow horizon]

or it could be religious, and they treat all fellow shamans as relatives

[timber pond]

They need to be pure snail shamans for thier spells to work good

[narrow horizon]

we see very few snails

and the ones we do are almost exclusively the shamans

[timber pond]

Yeah because the shells contain soul

They need them shells

[narrow horizon]

so all the snail shamans being related isn't that preposterous tbh

[inner torrent]

Probably both

It was mentioned snail shells have some interaction with spells

Or more specifically spirals

[timber pond]

Hmm mabye Ancient civilization and snail shamans are more closely related than I thought🤔 . The soul totems and snail shells act very similarly in thier purpose

[inner torrent]

They could be what's "Left" from the ancient civilization

[obsidian owl]

Only cases of getting Spells are the Shaman, Soul Sanctum and Abyss Shriek so maybe another similarity

[pale narwhal]

of all the intelligent bugs they do look the most like their irl counterpart

thats probably relevant to their genetic isolation

[pale narwhal]

the fact that the one in hallownest refers to the others the knight finds as specific relations makes me think theyre actual blood relatives

[narrow horizon]

i'm leaning more towards that, as the ones in pharloom do the same, and given how limited and specialized the species is, it's extremely likely for them to be related given how few of them there are

[celest spruce]

I have percated about something

This is a silk Worm, the real meker of the silk

He gets into silk Cocoons tho change his body

He becomes into a Moth

[obsidian owl]

So cute

[celest spruce]

Take your own conclusions

[robust wagon]

Neither hollow knight or silksong base their lore on real world biology

[sinful nimbus]

Well they do but its not really solid evidence

[obsidian owl]

I dream of moths

[obsidian owl]

Do all moths come from silkworms like you showed? Or only unique case

[frigid belfry]

Some elements are, grasshopper types are agile, roots have tree like abilities, beetles are durable, etc

Some hbs embody the bug they are based off

[celest spruce]

No, no all but that is the especific moth that radiance is inspired on

[celest spruce]

I didn't Affirmed anything

[obsidian owl]

That's a new interesting link between Pale beings

<@&283547423706447872>

[quick dove]

Shut up

Bro

[drifting apex]

What is the purpose of the shrine bells

[pale narwhal]

have you finished act 1 yet?

[robust wagon]

Well yeah, but I mean like moths coming from caterpillars

[drifting apex]

Finished the game. iirc caretaker said it was to lure bugs to them but not sure

[pale narwhal]

before the last judge fight its explained that the 5 bell shrines on the route to the citadel act as locks
door wont budge if the bells arent rung

[drifting apex]

So every bug whos on their way to the citadel had to ring it or something?

[inner torrent]

Hornet is going to evolve into a moth

Moths basically are winged cute tarantulas

[edgy river]

I think it's kinda like that yeah. The bells are all in the intended path to the citadel

[unique canopy]

Bell shrines create a rest spot for pilgrims, and the bells themselves resonate across the lands to guide pilgrims on the right path. And yes the five outside the Citadel unlock the Citadel gate. There's plans for the bells in one of the Weavenests so the Weavers came up with them, it wasn't a system the Conductors added after the handover.

[pale narwhal]

id they want to get in via Grand Gate yes
thats why those two were just stood outside waiting and got crushed by Last Judge

[inner torrent]

Do you think they killed or like

Last judge just didn't care if someone died while she purged the evil (hornet)

[pale narwhal]

the two pilgrims? yes

[edgy river]

Was the elevator after last judge ever intended to go up to choral chambers. Or would it always send them straight to underworks and them select a few of the ones in underworks to join the citadels choir?

[inner torrent]

I don't remember if they welded weapons or smth

NGL I felt bad for them

[pale narwhal]

it seems that they weren't meant to go up, yet many did. most likely a path in the z axis somewhere that hornet can't use

[edgy river]

I mean during the weaver phase. Like they needed bugs to hold on the song, but I'd imagine they needed way more bugs to keep the citadel itself running

So it would make sense to me if the reality was that the intention was always Pilgrimage → Underworks → Citadel

Every bug is thrown out in underworks and the few that somehow make it up to the citadel hold on the song

[pale narwhal]

yet none of the bugs in the underworks resemble pilgrims at all, and most of the ones above have direct parallels.

[edgy river]

Yeah that is weird

But the elevator, at least when hornet gets there, is clearly meant to go downwards

[edgy river]

That is very weird, never thought of that

There is also the fact that Sherma and tons of other pilgrims make up to the citadel regardless, probably through other path we can't go??

[pale narwhal]

plus the reality of the underworks would be something id keep away from the bugs tricked into thinking theyre fulfilling a higher purpose with their song

[unique canopy]

There are a couple. The one with the long brush resembles the pilgrim with the long staff, the one with the brush looks like the pilgrim that just jumps at you, pretty sure they have the same "uhUUH" voice line

[pale narwhal]

also that, yes.
Sherma went through grandgate simce they were at the blasted steps but makes no mention of the underworks at all

[unique canopy]

These guys

[edgy river]

I don't think the reality of the underworks really downs on people there. People in the underworks seems to be fine with it and hope for the day they'll go to the citadel

[edgy river]

There is technically the path through the scales and the hidden wall ig but that seems like a stretch

[edgy river]

Oh yeah they're definitely these pilgrims, ur right

[pale narwhal]

and the prisoners are glad to be in the slab
just because it hasn't dawned on them doesn't mean you can safely assume it never will.

there's no way the weavers would have just gone "oh yea no let's just assume they're all brainwashed enough before ever seeing foot here to not notice"

[pale narwhal]

but i think this is the detail that seals the deal

[edgy river]

Not noticed what? For the ones who get to the citadel, their prayers were answered and the ones who are still below didn't have enough faith

[edgy river]

Either way, there is a separate path some pilgrims take, like everyone in Songclave

But my original question was this. Is the elevator who is currently rigged to go to underworks, always meant to go there (and people who got to the citadel managed to do it anyway, like the pilgrims in Songclave)

Or was it supposed to go up and got rigged after they built the automatic song machine in Cogwork Core

[pale narwhal]

oh yea no there's literally nowhere for it to go upwards

[edgy river]

Humm

Interesting

So it seems even in when weavers were doing things, that one elevator was always set to underworks and the pilgrims who got to the citadel used a different path

Team Cherry and secret paths that clearly have to exist for the story to make any sense but the player is not allowed to see them, name a more iconic duo

[pale narwhal]

the way shakra is always using the z axis to move around

[lethal burrow]

Way the vessels escaped the abyss through the Z axis

[edgy river]

"how did the pilgrims make up the citadel" is the new "how did the vessels escape"

[pale narwhal]

also the view from Lurien's tower supports the whole z axis thing cos like
those are normal building

[silk dirge]

i mean literally any cutscene does

[narrow horizon]

vessels are stuck in the 2d and hornet mocks them for it

that is until hornet is whisked away to Pharloom and loses her spacial awareness

[muted lantern]

were the elevators in blasted steps meant for use by pilgrims? it seems like a luxury the citadel wouldn't typically afford to them. they are the same kind of elevator as in the shellwood right? so presumably they used to function

[edgy river]

I don't really like using the Z axis for explanations

When it's smth we don't get to see

[lethal burrow]

They sort of look like cages

[edgy nebula]

the z axis is great, it's the only way we know what couldve happened to conductor romino

[edgy nebula]

dont they share the same sprite that other elevators that hornet uses do

[muted lantern]

arent they the same design as the ones in shellwood that carry us?

[edgy river]

Because

1. It makes hornet Lorewise really stupid, the player doesn't exist in the lord so she just can't go there because?
2. You can explain anything with it. People teleported? Secret paths. How did Pale King died? Idk maybe there was an assassin in another room we don't get to see because of the Z axis

If it's smth we actually know for certain exists or we can see through the Z axis is fine, but when it isn't it feels like a cope out

[edgy nebula]

tc just wants to make a 2d metroidvania, i dont think it's anything to think about too hard

[sinful nimbus]

Assassin theory has been around for a long time and now that we know the Steel Masters will jump you for meddling with void its perfectly plausible

[edgy nebula]

she does use the z-axis anyway, when entering buildings like the chapel of the reaper or her bellhome

[visual glacier]

Player is canon

[edgy nebula]

why would chara make the knight do all that

[visual glacier]

True

[muted lantern]

But yeah they seem to be elevators in the blasted steps, they are the same design as the ones that are in shellwood

just rechecked

[foggy juniper]

maybe the ones in blasted steps are used to move prisoners from the marrow jail to the slab

no idea of what purpose it has if its not that tho

[stray fog]

Is the marrow jail located below those elevators?

[muted lantern]

maybe they were just elevators? i mean i don't see any better way the pilgrims could have gotten up

[muted lantern]

not even close

[foggy juniper]

not really but its in the vecinity of the hole i guess

[stray fog]

What if the climb wasn't so miserable at first

[pale narwhal]

i mean we dont need the Z axis for that pale king one. hes been dead for years, the assassin can just leave

[edgy river]

I think the knight is the (roaring) knight at this point

[muted lantern]

but even with the elevators being broken, pilgrims like sherma lumble and tall pilgrim make their way up, maybe they are just really good wall climbers? I don't generally like z axis as an explanation but it can be often the case in hollow knight map design

[edgy river]

Same name can't be coincidence

[pale narwhal]

and in Karak

well, the one that it has but still

[foggy juniper]

i dont think sherma used the elevators considering he mentions the judges

unless he backtracked to the bench to rest a bit

[muted lantern]

im not saying he used the elevators, since they are broken as of now.

[edgy river]

It was only supposed to show how you can excuse anything you want into the Z axis. I don't think assassin's are that bad of an idea for PK death but I do think it's way less likely than the void from the kingsmolds

[muted lantern]

I was saying that even without elevators they seem to make it up

[foggy juniper]

ah yeah, its weird

[muted lantern]

im wondering if they just climb it?

groups of pilgrims are called a climbing troupe

[edgy river]

I feel like hornet specifically mentioning that PK was a fool for trying to make void do his bidding is as close as we'll get to confirmation

[stray fog]

Would a little amount of void have killed the pale king

Unless he didn't fight back because he lost hope (hallownest was basically dead)

[pale narwhal]

theory is less a violent outburst and more a slow poisoning

[muted lantern]

my main doubt with the void killing him thing is theres no tear streaks

[edgy river]

It's unlikely but maybe the grand gate scales room secret passage? They could maybe get on top of each other to climb to the scales?

Id assume they did after hornet so the elevator would be broken so there would be only a hole there so they wouldn't jump

[stray fog]

Do tear streaks always appear?

Tears are weird in these games

[sinful nimbus]

Depends on how you died to the void

[stray fog]

They appear in a lot of places

[muted lantern]

thats the grand gate elevator, im talking about the ones we climb on in blasted steps

[edgy river]

You mean to get to Blasted Steps?

[muted lantern]

no... the ones in blasted steps

[pale narwhal]

well the bug with the love key had them
and the guy in the abyss lighthouse

cant think of anyone else who died of exposure

[edgy river]

I think they climbed, they are pilgrims. Their whole deal is to make their journey through threatening terrain

[pale narwhal]

there are dead pilgrims in the side rooms after all

[edgy river]

The journey up to the citadel is full of weird inclines and walls we need wall jump for. So they have to know how to jump/climb or they are dead (which is the case for most, only a few survive to get up there)

[unique canopy]

Hornet is just too embarrassed to admit she never learned how to use a climbing rope

[stray fog]

She has a grappling hook anyway

[muted lantern]

Are pilgrims allowed to use climbing tools? or do they have to barehand climb?

they can't use weapons, but they are allowed bells and walking sticks it seems?

[unique canopy]

As long as you don't use it as a weapon maybe

[muted lantern]

tell that to the hiker pilgrims

though i suppose thats likely due to the haunting

[unique canopy]

Well we don't see any old pilgrims as choristers iirc

[muted lantern]

I mean I think we are missing a good few types of generic pilgrims in the choir so im not sure if thats a fair judgement

[drifting apex]

Then do those bells deactivate after a while? Bcs if one pilgrim activates all of them and there's a second pilgrim who also wants to go to citadel and just starts his journey he will have to activate them again?

[unique canopy]

Nothing confirmed one way or another, they stay open throughout the game at the least because obviously it would be annoying to have to reactivate them. They might need to be manually deactivated which might have been one of the reasons Widow was in Bellahrt but that's speculation.

[upbeat fog]

I found what moorwing is based off of

[narrow horizon]

A cats rotten turd

[upbeat fog]

Moor goldfish they have its eyes

[muted lantern]

we don't even see its eyes though? they are wearing one of these

[upbeat fog]

The fishes eyes are bulging out like moorwing and its name is black moor I’m just saying it is likely to have inspired this especially because I found this at a local pet store

[muted lantern]

but moorwings eyes don't bulge out, its a falconry hood, thats not part of it's body

theres a bulge around the eyes on hoods like that as to not irritate the birds eyes

[stray fog]

Does "beast" in "bug and beast" have a specific meaning or is it just used to refer to non-insects (mushrooms, snails, etc.)

[atomic widget]

Could they be the equivalent of animals in this world?

[trail wagon]

THAT'S LITERALLY what I've been thinking. Finally, somebody has noticed it

[trail wagon]

aren't beasts just immensty powerful bugs?

Hornet is also referred as a beast at least once

[muted lantern]

beast is used in a lot of instances in this game, referring to herrah and her folk, as well as to grand mother silk.

I do think it does imply some primal nature

[atomic widget]

Weren't the weavers beasts before they became bugs. As in them being Pharlids

[trail wagon]

I think it means powerful, violent, merciless

maybe implying some primal behaviours too, yeah, but I don't think all non-sentient bugs are considered beasts by default

[atomic widget]

I think it means beings that are more controlled by their nature and primal urges. Beings that are animalistic rather than having self control

[upbeat fog]

It is literally called the black moor

[muted lantern]

that genuinely doesn't mean anything, with this logic it could just as easily be based on a moor frog or a moorhen.

plus the moorwing has nothing even remotely fish like in it's design, its much more comprable to a bat or some kind of raptor if we are comparing to a non bug creature.

and to clarify, by raptor i mean the type of bird

[upbeat fog]

I just looked up moor it isn’t helping my case but moor mostly likely talking about how greymoor was before it became a city

[muted lantern]

It used to be a forest most likely, like wisp thicket, as its structures are made out the same wood present there, and the lack of them now is probably deforestation due to the construction. the use of the term moor is probably used the likelyhood that it used to be farmland it is now entirely uncultivated and likely polluted.

[upbeat fog]

I mean hear is a picture of a moor and that lines up with what you said

[storm ice]

what would happen if hornet were to try and bind void?

[stray fog]

Why herrah though

Unless the theories about herrah being a different kind of weaver are True

[muted lantern]

Why is she called herrah the beast you mean?

[stray fog]

Yes

[muted lantern]

I presume shes pretty brutal, or it's a title she inherited when marrying the king of deepnest.

or both

[stray fog]

Would that even be possible

[muted lantern]

She'd probably die

[stray fog]

To bind something, I assume it's gotta be a living (or formerly living) thing

[upbeat fog]

Or become lost

[stray fog]

Because binding = absorbing the things nature

[stray fog]

Assuming that it is possible, I think hornet might get hollowed out

[muted lantern]

Hornet sucks up the forbidden black spaghetti and dies instantly

[stray fog]

A void crest would be cool

Although it isn't gonna happen

[upbeat fog]

Hornet being the pale king’s daughter may have some resistance

[stray fog]

If becoming lost is an intermediate phase (between being normal and being dead), then her becoming lost (like gms and lace) makes sense

[upbeat fog]

To be fair for them to become lost they were dunked in void

[stray fog]

Garmond was corrupted without the haunted threads and without the abyss

Void is airborne or something

[wise sand]

Beasts are non-sapient bugs for the most part

Especially strong ones

[pale pier]

does plasmium originate from dreams

perchance

[stray fog]

According to my headcanons, yes

[wise sand]

Ig there's herrah but that probably has something to do with how Hallownest viewed the citizens of deepnest idk

[heavy gyro]

Garmond probably had a bit of silk in him

[stray fog]

Damn microplastics

[pale pier]

garmond has soul in him no?

and ive heard some people saying silk comes from soul

[stray fog]

Not necessarily in the form of silk

Weavers, their descendants, and gms can spin soul into silk

The rest of the bugs of pharloom got silk injected into their (or their ancestor) 's bodies by the citadel for experimentation

[upbeat fog]

We know void was airborne from looking at the abyss from game one

[twin dragon]

He got haunted

Silk eventually took over him

After running around and killing haunted stuff

[stray fog]

Do threads appear

[twin dragon]

When you hit him yes

Also lost garmond isn't the same as lost lace

[stray fog]

When you play the needolin after the boss fight

[twin dragon]

not sure

does he react even?

[stray fog]

Do such threads appear when hitting the surface cockroaches

If so, then those threads are just hornet collecting soul

[twin dragon]

They don't, neither they do when hitting shit that isnt haunted or a silk-related being

but when hitting lost garmond they do

If it wasn't by the black thread, he would be just plain dead

[stray fog]

So ig he doesn't sing because he's dying

[twin dragon]

Yeah

I mean he's also black threaded

The void doesn't really respond

[visual glacier]

Black-threaded enemies can sing

[fathom pollen]

Doesn't the fact that voided enemies have twice as much health(or take half the damage) basically confirm that the knight would take 1 mask of damage if he was in pharloom?

[pliant meadow]

What? No?

[stray fog]

The knight has only 1 parent in common with hornet

So its not perfectly comparable

[fringe hemlock]

when Eva is approached with lifeblood she calls it "the forbidden blood"
but how does she know what it is?
did the weavers comeback from hallownest and tell her about it?
not only that, but what it feels like
like she would be able to sense its nature but not what it feels like or that its the same blood she learned about from the weavers(if it was them), mean not only did she learn about it from somewhere but also encountered one of its afflicted before and also some context that that was the lifeblood

[stray fog]

Maybe lifeblood was in pharloom in the past too and zylotol is stupid

[misty yacht]

Its not even really if it was, but in what form?
cause it had to be in pharloom for Zylotol's master to find it, but i think this is pretty good evidence that the weavers had something to do with it

[stray fog]

If anyone knew about it, it was the Weavers

[misty yacht]

the fact Zylotol thinks its a new discovery means it couldnt have been a huge deal in its past

[fringe hemlock]

it would have some pretty wild implications if it WASN'T the weavers

[arctic cliff]

So many kingdoms…

[fringe hemlock]

Because if it wasn't the weavers, Eva knowing it as "blood" would mean it being called blood isnt just a Hallownest thing, but in someway truthful to its nature!

[stray fog]

Zylotol thinks its a new discovery so he or his master must have named it plasmium

[misty yacht]

Well it does replace you're vital fluids so that's probably where the blood name would come from

[fringe hemlock]

That is for sure the case.

[fringe hemlock]

still, that lends to the idea Eva has witnessed or at least been in close exposure to a bug who was experiencing some of the transformational side effects we see in the wormways

[misty yacht]

not necessarily close exposure, since she could sense Hornet's fight with GMS, there was likely a lifeblood incident that involved at least 2 bugs in Pharloom

[lone folio]

maybe there was a small outbreak of lifeblood once in pharloom and the Weavers just told her about it or brought it down into their Weavernest to experiment on it?

[misty yacht]

that would imply lifeblood existed in Pharloom before the Weavers flee'd to Hallownest, i think its more likely one of the Weavers returned from Hallownest bringing some samples

[fringe hemlock]

could be that lifeblood is more common in the world of Hollow knight than we first thought. maybe it doesn't even orginate in Hallownest?

[stray fog]

The potential lifeblood higher being was in hallownest

I say that its a higher being because it appears in god home

[fringe hemlock]

i mean lots of non-higher beings appear in god home

but i do think its a higher being

[stray fog]

The lifeblood one has its own room in godhome

[lone folio]

That's what I'm thinking

[fringe hemlock]

true, but it could be just for the Abyss Creature and not the lifeblood itself, like maybe its just affected but lifeblood

[lone folio]

We will see once we get to the lifeblood dlc or when we get pharloom bay which is presumably where it came from in pharloom

[stray fog]

I want to believe that lifeblood is a universal force

But I also want to believe that the abyss creature is a higher being

[lone folio]

My gut is still telling me that lifeblood hb is a butterfly

[stray fog]

Same

[lone folio]

Some sort of anti radiance

[stray fog]

My headcanon was that they're siblings or something

[lone folio]

Unlikely but they are related with everything we get to know about lifeblood

[misty yacht]

the abyss creature could be a butterfly, we only see its head so it could look like Grol the Great also...but butterfly is still on the table

[stray fog]

Hallownest is the land of gods or something so that could explain why the lifeblood higher being would be in hallownest

[lone folio]

Yeah but until the dlc we are (maybe) getting we don't really know

[lone folio]

Well it only ever appears in dreams

[misty yacht]

i like the idea of a sun x moon kinda thing
like the abyss creature is found near the void, its sort of like the moon in the night, light in the abyss but simply a reflection of the sun which is the radiance

[lone folio]

Another connection to radiance perhaps

[stray fog]

🔥

[stray fog]

There are soooo many connections

[lone folio]

"There is an echo also of other infections I have witnessed. I wonder at the meaning of it all... or if I am perhaps imagining similarities where there are none." even Hornet points out the similarities

[misty yacht]

also butterfly as the moon and moth as the sun is fun cause usually you'd imagine it the other way around

[fringe hemlock]

its interesting because they kinda do it differently though
radiance enters your mind, and then your body
whereas lifeblood enters your body and then your mind

it doesn't seem like just thinking about lifeblood is enough to cause it

[stray fog]

I wonder why the lifeblood creature was hiding from the godseekers

[misty yacht]

i mean, we dont really know what it was doing

[stray fog]

Either it was hiding or the godseekers didn't notice it

[misty yacht]

all our information on it it that it is a PNG of a black head with blue eyes, and its filename is Abyss_creature

[misty yacht]

i mean, all speculation, but i think it has the ability to pass as a dark passenger of sorts in a bugs mind

[lone folio]

Maybe they locked it away

Maybe they knew what kind of risk it could bring to their godhome

[misty yacht]

like, in both the abyss and godhome you need to meet a requirement to access it
could be like the radiance in bugs minds except instead of flowing out of it freely, it is more subtle in its manipulation until its ready to fully take over

[stray fog]

They have the radiance though

[lone folio]

Oh yeah they do.. Maybe they don't know what the radiance can do? I mean that's prime radiance she doesn't even use her infection at all

[stray fog]

The access requirements can hint towards it not wanting to meet people (and hence, hiding from the godseekers)

[misty yacht]

yeah thats what im thinking

[stray fog]

Are unn and the shade lord the only higher beings who aren't assholes

Maybe even the nightmare heart

[misty yacht]

grimm seems chill

[stray fog]

Although its got a very villain-like name

[twin dragon]

the nightmare heart legit sucks away the life of dying kingdoms

[misty yacht]

yeah but it seems to really be going outof its way not to build kingdoms to worship it (as seems to be higher being nature) to extend its power and life
he just goes to kingdoms that are already dead to harvest their nightmares

[twin dragon]

White lady also doesn't seem like the biggest asshole

[lone folio]

Well jiji has some interesting things to say about that..

"Hmm. A fierce host has settled nearby. Did you summon them? I find their smell... unsettling.
Theirs is a scent of distant places, unfamiliar even to me.
They have a strange look to them, gaudy and intimidating. Perhaps you suspect they hide their true appearance? You'd be right. They favour projection over truth, shrouding themselves in forms dreamed.
Best be careful. Assisting them might benefit you, but who knows what suffering it may cause?"

[twin dragon]

Btw, i doubt that we'd have a grimm dlc since pharloom is basically gonna get revived after sotv

maybe

[lone folio]

They are just acting

[stray fog]

She killed too many babies to be a good person

[misty yacht]

yeah but i think she might have some bias about the guy who comes only to dead kingdom to claim their death, coming to your kingdom and reaping its death

[lone folio]

The Grimm troupe wants to look friendly and fun to draw you into their ritual

[twin dragon]

The grimm troupe is basically the nightmare heart, it's vessel and a few participants

[viscid ridge]

You have to remember both her and the pale king deeply regreted killing them. It hurt her so deeply that she literally chained herself up

[misty yacht]

i mean it seems quite consensual with the Knight