sk-lore

[sinful nimbus]

I never knew the Pale King was a shaman

Please elaborate

[terse warren]

The issue is that there is no reason for it to arrive so late other than Aurafarming

Also no, if you tell me the charm "Unifies THE VOID" I don't assume the charm secretly actually means only some specific void

[severe escarp]

so did hornet forget everything about hallownest?

[sinful nimbus]

No

[unique canopy]

You're the one who said it was a new power. Is it or is it not?

[sinful nimbus]

To the shamans it is

[terse warren]

New to the Shamans

[mild adder]

1 fair, power oriented

2 in god home we get descriptions of different forms the knight takes, the Shade lord form is Void given Focus. the phrase "unifies the void" does massive heavy lifting on all the interpetations that the entire void, in the entire HK universe is now unified under Knight's will, which tbh i never interpreted it as that. Its a fair interpretation but to me it always just talked about the unification of Knight's natures and capability of harnessing the void rather than becoming the omnipresent consciousness of the entire void.

3 he didn't need to help hornet with anything until she was actually at death's door, from either game we actually haven't seen void actively venturing out to hunt things on the surface or higher than its layer actually is unless someone starts doing funky stuff with it like PK did with his Kings molds and Vessels and the collector. Hornet also helps the knight once guaranteed and second time in DNM or SS endings

I don't really see the issue myself tbh

[midnight zinc]

Why would it arrive earlier, that’s stupid as hell. Is the knight just supposed to show up anywhere in the world where void is doing something?

And yeah that’s my point, the charm description is a bit confusing, but considering the actual name given to the knight with the VH is “lord of shades”, that makes it pretty clear what’s actually happening.

[sinful nimbus]

The union was stated to be across a single being by Bardoon IE its not merely commands its a literal unification of will

[terse warren]

What the Void is doing is not exactly a very usual thing? A very powerful Pale Being just fell into it I'd say that's plenty cause for investigation lmao

[sinful nimbus]

The void doesn't act under TK's will in Sister of the Void it has to physically beat it up which is 🥴 and very awkward with what was previously established

[midnight zinc]

Which makes a lot less sense if it’s less specific than unifying the siblings, who actually have distinct individual wills of their own.

[sinful nimbus]

The void haunting makes sense mechanically though its just Sister of the Void

[sinful nimbus]

?

[terse warren]

3. Why would the knight not help Hornet with the fight for example? Do they just want her to get hurt??

4. I mean there's not many ways to interpret a sentence are there

[severe escarp]

the knight doesnt show up and save you if your about to die to lost lace though

[terse warren]

??

[mild adder]

yea, like hornet doesn't show up to save the knight in every other situation past getting the void heart
thats becuase canonicaly Hornet always beats the bosses.

[sinful nimbus]

the knight was busy grinding P5 in Godseeker mode or something

[midnight zinc]

Okay and? Maybe that is what caused it to show up. Pharloom and Hallownest are pretty far apart, are you saying it can just teleport to other parts of the abyss? And even if it showed up instantly, it wouldn’t show up wherever Hornet was, like at the time still in the cradle. It would go to the abyss, and we wouldn’t see it while we’re on the other side of the kingdom.

[terse warren]

Except it actually dors obey TK right after when carrying up Hornet and Lace which makes even less sense

[sinful nimbus]

Void teleportation is an established thing

Probably doesn't have infinite reach though

[terse warren]

It would very much go directly to where massive cocoon is yes that is what I think

Which is, y'know, where Hornet was fighting GMS

[midnight zinc]

And that’s where it shows up

[terse warren]

Yeah after the fight is over?

[unique canopy]

TK doesn't show up until after the Everbloom dissolves, so it can be inferred it can mess with identifying what exactly is there. All the Knight can sense is something the Everbloom is blocking it from seeing, and it's only after when it can tell that's actually Hornet that it intervenes.
Likewise with the cocoon, GMS is explicitly trying to use the last of her strength to keep the void out as much as possible.

[terse warren]

Did the guy walk to Pharloom or teleport to Pharloom?

[severe escarp]

ye but she beats the bosses because of her foresight, she would have seen the future where she died multiple times where the knight does show up and save her from lost lace

[midnight zinc]

You’re complaining about a somewhat cliche narrative device, there’s no actual plot holes here, you just don’t like that it shows up to save her at the end. It’s entirely feasible it wouldn’t show up in time to help her fight GMS.

[terse warren]

The Void is very much getting in the cocoon

[unique canopy]

Slowly, and mostly in the form of Lace controlling it

Or it controlling Lace

[terse warren]

Not slowly at all, see Phase 3 of Lost Lace

Masses of Void as tall as GMS breach the cocoon

[unique canopy]

Yes slowly, see phase 3 of lost lace and compare with the entire ocean of void surrounding the cocoon. Is the entire interior of the cocoon completely full of void ocean? No it's not
Hence why I said "trying" and "as much as possible." Because it's a struggle where the void is trying to overpower GMS, and will inevitably win, but it will take time while GMS is still resisting.

[mild adder]

3 why didn't the Knight stay around to chill with his sister and rebuild Hallownest as its one true current monarch? Like i'll break the lore discussion for a bit but its Hornet's literal game, having the Shade lord Solo Pharloom would be funny but it wouldn't really be Hornet's game now would it.
back to the lore, Hornet is a capable warrior and its not like the Knight is omniscient, according to you, he would be omniscient IN the void since its his entire body and mind now, i do not personally see why the Knight would have to be involved in SS until the void part of the game. there is no narrative need to, and the ending we got just further confirms Knight's and his sibling's consciousness, will and personality.

2, well i gave you a different interpetation entirely based on that sentence and what we actually see in the first game. so like iunno what else you want

[severe escarp]

wait true ending is the canon ending right?

[mild adder]

you know that sentence is a really good meme now thinking about it

but which game are you talking about
HK or SS?
Because for HK both DNM and ETV can be canon
though Herah is confirmed dead in SS because if ETV could wake up the sleepers then Hornet would remember her mom's face

as for SS i don't think that Cursed Child or Weaver queen endings are the canon endings, Cursed Child is a bit of a meme challenge run ending and Weaver queen is multiple times through the story reinforced to be the thing Hornet and her Mom Herah don't want to happen
so all my money is on Sister of the void for SS

[twin dragon]

We literally see THK's shade do its own thing instead of being in the void pool

[severe escarp]

im talking about hollow knight and if its the ETV ending it could mean PV is still alive, and im pretty the dreamers die because PV broke through the seal

[sinful nimbus]

There wasn't really a reason to believe THK was separated from the void mind but you could handwave that away with the fact that its imprinted with essence if you really wanted to

Void Tendrils aren't that

[twin dragon]

The siblings don't rlly do that

aside from like

[limpid summit]

I think THK is separated in DnM

[twin dragon]

rising slightly from the void pool

when TK climbs up

[limpid summit]

It might forego its imprint later on

[sinful nimbus]

do what

[twin dragon]

Do their own thing

they act as part of the void

[sinful nimbus]

They have a faded imprint yes

[twin dragon]

while THK is different

[limpid summit]

Yeah but their imprints are weaker I guess

[sinful nimbus]

"Fragment of a lingering will" and their appearance is far less defined

[twin dragon]

THk was still technically part of the void despite all of that

and so are the siblings

[sinful nimbus]

What

THK's shade isn't faded and it has a defined appearance

And I really don't know what you're even trying to prove

[severe escarp]

he is a crackhead now though

[twin dragon]

literally...

[twin dragon]

It's his head and part of his cloak

it's not very "defined" per say

plus, why are we basing it off of appereances?

[sinful nimbus]

Look at THK's shade and then the siblings

[limpid summit]

Well

[sinful nimbus]

The siblings have a far more blurry appearance and their will is explicitly noted to be fragmented and lingering

[limpid summit]

It doesn’t “have” to

[frigid belfry]

whats the argument

[sinful nimbus]

TK aurafarming theory...

[twin dragon]

Just like he never really had to slap away the radiance

as she could've just been dragged down to the void

[severe escarp]

wait why does THK's shade have a crack in his head?

[sinful nimbus]

After she was sufficiently beaten up

[twin dragon]

Im talking about when you actually beat the boss

[sinful nimbus]

Yes

She still needs to be beaten up more idk why that's weird

[twin dragon]

she doesnt?

the void already got close enough

and literally grabbed her

[sinful nimbus]

yeah so

[twin dragon]

there's literally nothing she can do at that point wym yeah so 😭

[frigid belfry]

no lore reason probably just artistic design

[sinful nimbus]

That doesn't mean dragging her into the void would be successful at killing her without us beating the light out of her more

Idk why you assume that is useless

[frigid belfry]

unless you want to argue that containing the radiance literally cracked his essence

[severe escarp]

there has to be since his arm has healed but his crack head hasnt

[twin dragon]

Maybe because it would shred her to tears like it usually does

[sinful nimbus]

What do you think the slapping does

[twin dragon]

Yeah i'd rather slap someone with acid instead of submerging them entirely in it

mhm

[sinful nimbus]

"Why does TK hit her repeatedly with a sharp lash instead of shredding her" those are the same thing

[twin dragon]

slapping someone with acid = submerging someone completely in it

[sinful nimbus]

Also watch the cutscene

She's only dragged down once she's spewing essence the implication of which is that she needed to be sufficiently weakened with the beating before being dragged down

[twin dragon]

She's getting beat with the same thing that

would basically be everywhere

if she were to go down

[sinful nimbus]

So what's the point

Its doing the thing you want it to do

[twin dragon]

she's completely immobile once THK and the tendrils grab her

[twin dragon]

tk always aura farms

sneaky h

[sinful nimbus]

Its not aura farming its just hitting Rad to kill her which yeah no duh

[twin dragon]

instead of doing it in the most efficient way

[sinful nimbus]

Nothing about it is inefficient

[twin dragon]

[sinful nimbus]

https://youtu.be/UmaafVMHZI0?t=445

If it hit her with tendrils from the void sea the result would be the same

[twin dragon]

it would be over a lot quicker

i literally gave you a comparison

[sinful nimbus]

How

[twin dragon]

acid

[sinful nimbus]

But tendrils are more comparable to swords

[twin dragon]

corrosive liquid

[sinful nimbus]

Where the sword is swinging from doesn't matter

[twin dragon]

Still doesn't help your point

since tk could be swinging a single sword

while the abyss a thousand

at the same time

to the same foe

[sinful nimbus]

It cuts her face until it starts disintegrating then drags her down to the void to snuff out the light sufficiently what's inefficient about that

It doesn't need to swing a million swords one does the trick

[twin dragon]

A million swords swinging would be better than one

against one foe

mate

😭

[sinful nimbus]

Me when my opponent stabs me with one sword instead of 2 (Clearly they are aura farming)

[unique canopy]

The void grabbed GMS in the cradle too and look what happened after. And Rad is definitely stronger than GMS, let alone AbsRad.
Like yes they're different games and different circumstances and all that but this is one example of something in SK making something in HK make more sense. Smacking Rad in the face helps more than just immediately dragging her down.

[viscid ridge]

What stupid thing are you guys arguing about?

[twin dragon]

gms shielded herself with a giant cocoon

[sinful nimbus]

Apparently TK killing Rad in DNM is inefficient

[viscid ridge]

Yeah that aint worth my time you guys go ahead 💀

[twin dragon]

Oh so standing in front of your foe and slapping the living shit out of them instead of dragging them down into the razor liquid is not aura farming

you tell me

[sinful nimbus]

It only needs to hit the face

Not sure how the sea would help with that

[frigid belfry]

apparently they are powerscaling gms and rad

[twin dragon]

what

😭

where did that come from

[frigid belfry]

idk i just got here

[sinful nimbus]

GMS wasn't really in the convo

[twin dragon]

we don't do powerscaling here

i think

[sinful nimbus]

we?

[limpid summit]

GMS is weaker than Rad

[frigid belfry]

tf is this then

[limpid summit]

WE do powerscaling

[sinful nimbus]

Coughing baby vs Hydrogen bomb

[twin dragon]

ive got no clue

[frigid belfry]

zote >>> goku

[twin dragon]

TRUE

[unique canopy]

GMS was only brought up as a comparison for why just dragging a higher being into the void isn't the most efficient way without weakening her first

[twin dragon]

elderbug >>>>>>> hk

[frigid belfry]

whats the most efficient way then

[twin dragon]

issue is, the entire radiance fight is TK weakening her

[unique canopy]

Kicking the shit out of her first

[twin dragon]

and so is hornet since she can't really just activate the snare when there's gms actively trying to murder her

[frigid belfry]

baseball, huh?

[sinful nimbus]

What The Knight does is weaken her enough to dispel the light "halo" surrounding her then it sheds its shell because it can now use void and it uses that void to beat the light inside of her until it starts spewing out

[frigid belfry]

gms at the very least could sense hornet was trying to trap her so it makes sense

[sinful nimbus]

The equivalent for Hornet would be beating her up, unraveling her, then dragging her into the void

[frigid belfry]

best way to kill a hb is to still just bring tk

[sinful nimbus]

But its kinda a weird comparison imo these are different beings

[frigid belfry]

silksong is sans \

[twin dragon]

dispelling the "light halo" with seemingly the same void as the one in the razor sharp sea

[sinful nimbus]

Nope

TK dispels the light halo with its nail

[twin dragon]

the big shadow tendril tk has is his nail apparently

[sinful nimbus]

You're thinking of step 2 in which case again where the tendril comes from is irrelevant

[twin dragon]

that's what im talking about my god

😭

[frigid belfry]

when tf could tk do that

void coated nail

[sinful nimbus]

So how is it "aura farming"

[twin dragon]

Didn't i explain it to you quite a few times already?

[sinful nimbus]

Not coherently

Its like saying punching someone with your right fist is aura farming because you could've used the left fist or both

[twin dragon]

I've told you that TK, just standing there, in front of their foe, directly above the ocean of razor sharp tendrils, hitting it with his own for some god damn reason instead of letting the ocean swallow the foe whole

[twin dragon]

Not rlly

It's like punching someone with an acid covered fist

instead of throwing them the entire vat

[sinful nimbus]

What difference would that make

Where the tendril comes from is irrelevant it does the same thing

[twin dragon]

Rad would have not even a slight chance of resisting despite her already being weakened enough

[sinful nimbus]

There's no reason to believe it would make a meaningful difference its just random conjecture

[twin dragon]

this is hella pointless anywyas

[twin dragon]

Im not saying it's bad

but it IS aura farming

[sinful nimbus]

How

[twin dragon]

[sinful nimbus]

It chose to do one method that works in practically the same manner over another one

[twin dragon]

submerging someone in a vat of corrosive liquid instead of punching them with it would make some difference yes

Even if it's in the eyes only

[sinful nimbus]

void isn't corrosive liquid

[twin dragon]

razor sharp liquid

[sinful nimbus]

TK is using PHYSICAL FORCE

[twin dragon]

it would eat rad away in secs

[sinful nimbus]

Where the physical force comes from is irrelevant because there's no reason to believe the void sea is stronger or wtv

[frigid belfry]

to beings made of soul or essence it basically is

[twin dragon]

There's more swords in a sea of swords

[frigid belfry]

which is literally every bug in this game

[sinful nimbus]

Only one sword is needed

Why are you not typing using two keyboards are you aura farming

[twin dragon]

You could slash away at someone doing some tuff poses or throw them into the ocean of swords

both work, but one has aura farming involved

[sinful nimbus]

TK doesn't strike any poses it just gets the job done

Its tuff but its not aura farming

[midnight zinc]

It kinda hits a pose before discarding its shell

That's definitely not aura farming though, people use that term way too loosely

[twin dragon]

He waits for the void to grasp on to rad, instead of straight up pulling her down he waits for THK, then starts attacking

[sinful nimbus]

bro channeling its power 😭

[midnight zinc]

There's a difference between aura farming and just naturally having aura

[sinful nimbus]

ok?

[midnight zinc]

The knight has aura, someone like Grimm aura farms. There's a difference.

[twin dragon]

grimm has aura

[sinful nimbus]

I sure wonder why it would wait for Radiance to be restrained to attack it

[midnight zinc]

What are you arguing exactly?

[twin dragon]

tk has always been aura farming

which is kinda pointless to argue

[midnight zinc]

It's so artificial bro what? He has a whole band and stage crew with lights and a crowd to cheer him on, he's constantly hitting the most extra poses. He's a shameless aura farmer.

[sinful nimbus]

Grimm has reaper crest attacks because he's always trying to reap aura

[twin dragon]

but we gotta keep the steam going in this channel

[twin dragon]

wisp thicket reaper crest evolution confirmed

[sinful nimbus]

Said spectators are the same dude btw

Its all the nightmare heart roleplaying 😭

[midnight zinc]

The knight doesnt even remember who it is, it just shows up in Hallownest, kicks everything's ass without saying a single word, slays god, and then fucking leaves.

[midnight zinc]

Holy shit you're so right

[twin dragon]

The knight doesnt give two fucks

he just flexes the fact that he's a god

[twin dragon]

Self-worship farming confirmed

[midnight zinc]

The only character with aura more artificial than Grimm is Trobbio, but that's because he's just Grimm but with half the sauce and twice the zest

[twin dragon]

He has no spectators

anybody spectating him is dead

[sinful nimbus]

Hornet:

[twin dragon]

meh

Dance partner

[sinful nimbus]

"Do I almost feel fear?" major aura farmer 😭

[midnight zinc]

Hornet is in the middle, she's certainly farming at times but she does have some natural swag

[twin dragon]

Warrior meets unnatural thing that warrior never see and it scare warrior

it comes off as edgy

Edgelords ruined media💔

[midnight zinc]

The character with the most natural aura is canonically the pale king, his aura literally made other people smarter and he was blinding to look at directly. That's unmatched still in the HK univese.

[sinful nimbus]

So true

[twin dragon]

soul glow

literal definition of aura

[sinful nimbus]

If we're going by magic logic though TK canonically has negative aura since characters percieve void heart as an extreme absence

[midnight zinc]

Bro's afterglow centaries after his death was more powerful than every other god in Hallownest

[twin dragon]

TK makes up for that by the fact that he's TK

he's known as THE knight

by the community

which is way more ppl than hallownest housed

[midnight zinc]

That's what makes it more impressive tbh, the knight goes from having an aura deficit (is discarded in favor of its slightly cooler sibling, slips and falls like a goofy back into the abyss, is forgotten) to whooping its siblings ass and becoming the God of gods. All time comeback tbh

[twin dragon]

TK is an isekai character

[sinful nimbus]

HK dreamworks isekai

Tuff

[desert cloak]

i just realized how messed up lace must be in the true ending, with the way she laughs too

literally the only way she can continue existing is by depending on hornet and she realizes that as well..

[lean temple]

She's always been messed up

She was willing to let all of Pharloom fall

[lone folio]

He was like 3 seconds too slow

Imagine if he just knew how to climb faster

[spark valve]

e

[frosty gate]

What conversation have I stumbled into

[silk dirge]

that wouldve been so funny

pk would be like "ok i gotta push one of you off whos it gonna be"

[hexed fiber]

it would be cool if we could use needolin in groals corpse to see bilewater before the cidadel turned it into a sewer

like verdania

[silk dirge]

what if we get a clentaminator from terraria to clean the bile

[hexed fiber]

we would destroy an entire ecosystem

the roaches need the shit water to grow

theres npcs who eats roaches

withouth roaches = dead npcs

[tepid mountain]

Hornet would be unconcerned tbh.

[hexed fiber]

who cares about hornet

[tepid mountain]

I dunno, I was just sayin.

[unique canopy]

Greymoor and Sinner's Road used to be lush farmland, so the bad ecosystem would just be replaced with a better ecosystem

[hexed fiber]

idk the creatures would not pop

like it would be a empty place

[snow sonnet]

<@&283547423706447872> aaaa

[hexed fiber]

stop this s bro

<@&283547423706447872>

[twin dragon]

instead of mid roach meat youd get good roach meat

[hexed fiber]

there woundnt be roaches

[twin dragon]

there could

[hexed fiber]

no i think cus they need water to grow and then the water would be shit again

[twin dragon]

if thats the case better water could mean better roaches

no shit

[hexed fiber]

but the larvae would polut the water

[twin dragon]

the larvae grow there because the water is polluted in the first place

[hexed fiber]

yeah because on the polluted water theres nutrients and on normal water there isnt

[frosty gate]

What's the topic

[misty yacht]

does anyone know if Alchemist Zylotol has different dialogue if you only first speak to him in act 3?

[frosty gate]

You can check all those dialogues in the wiki!

I don't know how to make the bot work

[terse warren]

he doesn't im 90% sure

[frosty gate]

!wiki Zyolotl

[terse warren]

!wiki Zylotol

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Alchemist_Zylotol

Hollow Knight Wiki

Alchemist Zylotol

Alchemist Zylotol is an NPC in Hollow Knight: Silksong.

Location

Wormways

Role

Quest NPC

Tasks

Alchemist's Assistant
Advanced Alchemy

Affiliations

Zango (Assistant)
Unseen Master

Gender

Male

Singing

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/File:Alchemist_Zylotol_Sing.ogg

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/File:Alchemist_Zylotol_Sing_02.ogg

[frosty gate]

I keep messing up his name

It sounds mexican

Well Mayan

[edgy nebula]

sounds like tylenol to me

[frosty gate]

That's cus you don't speak spanish

[desert cloak]

sounds like a medicine name

[lone folio]

"ok uhh... Eenny meeny miney mo-"

[misty yacht]

i think its a play on Xylitol, which is an alchohol sugar

[frosty gate]

Or Axolotl, because he kinda looks like one

[misty yacht]

DBZ ass naming convention

[silk dirge]

"ok you two do a round of rock paper scissors"

would tk or thk win rock paper scissors

[frosty gate]

They would be in an endless tie because no one can think of anything but rock

[edgy nebula]

no mind to play rock paper scissors

no voice to cry "youre cheating"

[lone folio]

"hey I rock!" "NO I ROCK"

[vivid hamlet]

the people in the VC were arguing over hornet's lineage, so i spent an impressive 10 minutes in ms paint to put together this family tree as a visual aid.

[limpid summit]

This hard

[sinful nimbus]

where's GMS's other children 😭

[vivid hamlet]

it's hornet's family tree not theirs... and i ran out of room ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[frosty gate]

Dead

They died

It was tragic

[midnight zinc]

If we're including Sherman as Hornet's adopted child, then the cogflies are her reali children and the bellbeast is her pet

[spring lily]

Why is Bilewater unaffected by void? Any other places as well?

[hushed crater]

Wait really? I full on decided I am not stepping there again

[spring lily]

Add Lace and Phantom

I went to take a look, in case there's places to silk soar, and also to play the elegy to Shakra's master

[inner torrent]

So like, who attacked the other kingdoms?

I know it was the citadel but like, under which reign?

The weavers
The conductors
Or during the haunting

[unreal estuary]

Either the Weavers or the Conductors

There's a chance Verdania was also affected by the Haunting but basically all the kingdoms fell before the Haunting began

[craggy smelt]

even the Void doesn't want to be there

[shrewd geyser]

If i had to guess it was the conductors

[inner torrent]

It would be the most fitting probably

[proper anchor]

I noticed there's a 1st sinner, a 2nd sentinel and a 4th chorus. Is there any hints of like a 3rd character/boss?

[unique canopy]

The main ambiguity is that Khann talks about the pale light, and Karmelita specifically talks about the pale beast, both to reference their enemy "Curse the creature pale" and to reference Hornet. If it was just the un-Haunted Citadel then you'd expect both to talk about the actual bugs and leaders of the Citadel, even if you handwave Khann's "pale light" as referring to the Citadel as a collective whole. But that still leave Karmelita speaking specifically of the "creature pale."

[unreal estuary]

I would argue then that the Pale Creature would refer to GMS prior to the haunting. It is also believed that she did some direct conquering of her own, and the Haunting seems to be more recent than the downfall of these other kingdoms

I may be wrong but I remember hearing that somewhere

[unique canopy]

That being said, there's nothing saying all of the conquests had to have happened at roughly the same time. You could have a gradually expansion under the Conductors before the Haunting drops the hammer down on whoever's left. There's also the interesting question with Nyleth where she's supposed to be the divine source of Shellwood, yet there's still a Weaver spire in a position of veneration in her domain before the Citadel would have expanded.

[unreal estuary]

True, with Nyleth it seems like the Citadel was pretty nice to her and her domain, they were the ones who set up the Shrine and generally seemed to honor her territory as opposed to Kahnn and Karmelita

also the weaver spire was left post-GMS, those were the Weavers who stayed behind to die and wait in the spires after the others fled Pharloom

[hollow ingot]

has anyone brought up how the statue you gain the beast crest from, looks pretty similar to the statue's of the AC.

like this guy look awfully similar

[past cypress]

Different horns, different "mouth", different shell, different number of limbs

The only similarity I see is general body shape and the eyes

[unreal estuary]

fairly certain that the Beast Crest beast is an ancient Beastfly, they look closer in design

[trail wagon]

not really

[terse warren]

Wisp Thicket

[terse warren]

eyes are also going in different directions and the limbs are long on the AC statue

[sinful nimbus]

The black-threading is a voidified version of the haunting ala void spells in HK so you can still resist it n stuff

And Stilkin aren't haunted except for Groal

[terse warren]

so do the stilkin just sing with the needolin cuz they think hornet's music is hype?

[sinful nimbus]

We don't talk about needolin singing

Mottled Skarr

[dawn gyro]

ong fr

[terse warren]

Gurr isn't haunted and he doesn't sing

[terse warren]

he signs because it's a vibe

[unique canopy]

Tons of examples of enemies singing to the needolin even though they're not Haunted, including Karmelita who's song is supposed to resist the Haunting. They just feel like jamming.

[hollow ingot]

you low key right

[terse warren]

p sure everyone that's not haunted signs because it's a vibe

[sinful nimbus]

I never even knew you could get needolin dialogue from enemies until I was told about it because that's genuinely so dumb 😭

[terse warren]

same

[trail wagon]

Is Sinner's Road affected?

[terse warren]

pretty sure

yeah yeah

it is

[trail wagon]

Well, do we mean black threads by "affected"?

All locations are affected by void, as far as I remember, all enemies turn into lost enemies

[terse warren]

no

wisp thicket doesn't

[trail wagon]

yeah, with that one exception

I've heard an intersting explanation, which is that they basically burn the threads and don't have silk in them

[sinful nimbus]

??????????????????????

[trail wagon]

?

[sinful nimbus]

why so inconsistent on the blackthreading

[trail wagon]

wdym

what is that?

[sinful nimbus]

Health values for normal/voided enemies except 3 don't get voided for like no reason

Or do these ones even show up in Act 3 at all\

[terse warren]

they do show up

[trail wagon]

idk maybe it's to not ruin the speedrun idk

[trail wagon]

zamn voided enemies' HP so huge theyre almost bosses

[steep ridge]

the only exceptions just seem to be small fly guys but then why are cogwork spines affected

[terse warren]

the first moss mother has 120 hp

[steep ridge]

[trail wagon]

and cogwork defender 110

[steep ridge]

cogwork defenders are crazy

[snow sonnet]

Specifically to annoy you a bit more when filling out the journal in act 3

[steep ridge]

trolled

[unique canopy]

Voided Grand Reeds have more HP than Lace 1

[trail wagon]

Poor Lace

[trail wagon]

does the fact the FS is naked at the beginning of the fight mean she used to be naked but is shy and dresses up when Hornet comes

[foggy fractal]

I mean yeah I would be embarassed too, and if I had the ability to weave clothes on the spot I would

[trail wagon]

Lol me too

[sinful nimbus]

aura farming

[lone folio]

What if first sinner just wants to look pretty

[trail wagon]

hmm interesting theory, but where is the evidence??

[misty yacht]

source?

[muted lantern]

My house just got turned into bilewater

[oak raptor]

She wanted to look good in the last fight.

[trail wagon]

wdym did somebody throw up maggots

[muted lantern]

Sewage line backed up

Or something

But house got flooded

[oak raptor]

Now I'm wondering, have pipes ever burst in the citadel?

[muted lantern]

I think a lot have actually

The broken showers are in citadel right?

I imagine without phantom the exhaust isn't vented either

[oak raptor]

Yes, it's part of the citadel.

[oak raptor]

now I have a strange headcount that the phantom blocked the pipeline in an attempt to rebel, and the entire citadel was left without hot water, haha

[spark valve]

Phantom is doing her job the waste is getting expelled it’s why bilewater is the way it is as well as the mist

[humble peak]

idk if the exhaust organ is the same pollution that tarnishes bilewater, it just seems to be some kind of magic steam

i think that what blights bilewater comes from above through the ducts

was probably some kind of sewage system or something

[prime scaffold]

If i never open the door what happens

[humble peak]

He just disappears lol

[unique canopy]

He gets past it eventually

[craggy smelt]

"Try and enjoy your relaxing spa now~! Aahhhahaha~!"

[dry bridge]

I think exhaust organ manages the underworks' exhaust, not the water of the citadel. That gets dumped out up in the putrefied ducts I believe.

[prime scaffold]

I never found this mperson again when i went to act 3, i only found them twice

anyone know what happened to it

[trail wagon]

Hey, guys, am I the only one seeing it as the same thing?

[foggy fractal]

looks like weaver architecture to me

[trail wagon]

Oh, nevermind, I was thinking it was the same thing as this

[trail wagon]

Yeah, agreed

[frigid belfry]

we know both structures were built by weavers so yeah

[frigid belfry]

they are still there, a bit more hidden though

[trail wagon]

Yeah

[graceful grail]

Why does this have the word Vessel on it??

[trail wagon]

does it?

[graceful grail]

I think

[visual glacier]

What

[trail wagon]

No?

[visual glacier]

It doesn’t

[trail wagon]

This is the first one:

In silence your voice,
In darkness your form,
We higher who see you seeking,
Our shells yearn for your embrace.

This is the second one:

Erase our fear,
Eliminate our desire,
To suffer no more,
Void, cleanse us.

[graceful grail]

Thats a different one im sure

[visual glacier]

There are only 2

[trail wagon]

There isn't one saying anything about vessels in Silksong

As far as I remember

[graceful grail]

I will be back in an hour

[visual glacier]

Ok

[trail wagon]

But even if there is, it doesn't say anything about the vessels from HK

[heady drum]

Hey guys,
Im trying to map out past Pharloom, based on the info ive found, the best era i could depict would be between the eras of Grand Mother SILK & the weavers giving the citadel to the common bug. Mostly because I have no idea what could be in the upper-middle area before the citadel of stone.

Some other things of note:

• ive included the scrapped barnacle (pharloom bay) since i assume it was scrapped because it wasnt needed when the map got overhauled. it makes sense that it wouldve originally been there before they accounted for the citadels presence destroying everything
• I couldve interpreted this wrong, but the tall and large cages alongside green prince being imprisoned implied to me that the original purpose of sinners road was to be the ancient version of the Slab for the citadel of stone & greymoor.
• The slab was removed cause without the Citadels expansion & sinners road being the old prison, it has no need to exist.
• Bellhart was removed because I assume it was only built once the Citadel became very well known. It would have no reason to exist this early on from my pov
• The marrows, deep dock and far fields have been combined to the lava fields. I imagine before the bug bodies formed the foundation and deep docks being constructed by the citadel that it was just a large area of lava, moss and tall grass
• The abyss was cut out because the only reason Pharloom gained access to it was because of the construction of deep docks which this map predates.
• Underworks could be cut out. In my head, thats the last remaining architecture of the citadel of stones design, but i figured id include it anyway.
• the areas on the edge that are unnamed are simply other paths leaving Pharloom. I assume the world of hollow knight is structured like giant stagways or ant tunnels cause otherwise this confuses me. Maybe Wyrms dug them out while travelling? idk

If you have any criticism, questions or noticed things ive forgotten. please let me know. this

[graceful grail]

Weavnests??

[heady drum]

they could be on the map. tbh i just left them out cause they are pretty small areas

[visual glacier]

Why did you include the bay

[unique canopy]

We know the Slab was made pretty early because First Sinner was the first imprisoned there

[trail wagon]

Not really

[prime scaffold]

So whats the lore here, what happened to HK again

[trail wagon]

She might be imprisoned by GMS after most Weavers fell

As the FIRST who sinned

[visual glacier]

Became void given focus/ form

[frigid belfry]

confirmed that either dnm, etv, or etv + flower is canon, and that tk is not hollow

these are the definitive conclusions

[trail wagon]

what is connected to Far Fields and why?

[trail wagon]

we don't know if etv+flower is canon

[heady drum]

to me it made sense that it wouldve been there at one point. it got scrapped im pretty sure like the skarr bone castle and coral gorge; it didnt make sense with the lore. e.g. coral gorge being beautiful while being next to the citadels pollution makes no sense.

[trail wagon]

we don't know the properties of the flower

[prime scaffold]

ngl but he looks kinda fat

[trail wagon]

It probably is actually, we'll likely see it in the DLC

[frigid belfry]

heavily implied all it does is repel void, and we know its possible, not that it is definitively the only canon

[unique canopy]

I have my own theories about that, but regardless he said the map was supposed to be before the Conductors took over, so the Slab would've been built by then anyway.

[heady drum]

that bottom bit on the right? in the weavenest there in the hidden section you can see a window looking out to blowing winds like howling cliffs and other entrances. unless ive misunderstood that, i assume thats another exit to the wasteland

[visual glacier]

It’s not canon though, all we know is that there is salt water east of bilewater with kelp

[trail wagon]

It might also destroy it (?) anyway, it MIGHT be cannon, you said it was confirmed, I belive

[heady drum]

i assume she was imprisoned because of other weavers. unless i missed something, i dont see why the weavers wouldnt free her if she was the one that told them the truth of their existence and wanted to rage against SILK

[trail wagon]

I don't know why this period would be considered Pharloom's prime though

I think the Citadel has polluted "palewaters" pretty early on

[visual glacier]

Pharlooms prime is pre weavers probably

[trail wagon]

Yeah, so she was likely imprisoned when nobody could save her anymore, so that would mean she would be imprisoned after most Weavers have already fled/died

[trail wagon]

Agreed

[trail wagon]

Yeah, because there was no Citadel

[trail wagon]

Yeah, it's just that you mapped it as an area, and I don't think it ever was a region of Pharloom, it was always an exit to the wastelands most likely

[trail wagon]

Well, we don't know what happens if the void is inside of something that has this flower btw

[visual glacier]

Void is so mysterious

[trail wagon]

ETV+flower looks like the flower just wiped off both the Godseeker and SL

[trail wagon]

Yeah, that's for sure

[visual glacier]

One of the most random things about void is it just being nonconductive

[heady drum]

my reason for this was because of green princes imprisonment. He was imprisoned after SILK appeared in Pharloom. Afterward, he was imprisoned in sinners road. This wouldve been early on, altho idk if it was self imprisonment or the conductors doing something about it tho so this could be pointless.

[heady drum]

i mean i did this to all the exits cause i wanted to see how they looked on the map

[timber pond]

I personally Think The Ravenous Tentacles Might be Devolved shades after The Ancient Civilization threw themselves in. Or The opposite, in the masters. Who knows

[visual glacier]

Why are you capitalizing random words

Also the shades are a vessel thing

[timber pond]

The AC had a Concept of "shades" As seen in the arcane eggs "No will...No Self....shade"

[visual glacier]

What

That proves litterally nothing

[timber pond]

Not saying that they had a definitive way to make them, but it seems to be some kind of aspiration

[timber pond]

Its the only mention of the word shade outside of the journal or the pale kings writings

[visual glacier]

The ancient civilization uses a ton of different words for void/darkness

Shade is just one of those

[heady drum]

shade could also just be referring to the darkness, e.g. black, dark, void etc

[trail wagon]

Gotcha

[timber pond]

They already have words for that though that are separate. They Also just simply call it void. The arcne egg is perscribing some kind of Goal and naming that Goal "shade"

[trail wagon]

maybe they wanna become shades

Erase our fear, Eliminate our desire, To suffer no more, Void, cleanse us.

[visual glacier]

The goal is to have their desires cleansed by void

[timber pond]

It sort of seems like that was thier Goal if you put hte two tablets together with the arcane egg

[trail wagon]

They wanna become brainless

[timber pond]

And they think "becomeing a Shade" does that. But they, in hindsight, might be wrong

[visual glacier]

The form of a shade or sibling is exclusive to vessels

[heady drum]

could be. the pale king needed a inspiration at some point that gave him the idea of the hollow children in the first place. maybe the king saw something deeper in the abyss before it got buried under skulls n whatnot

[timber pond]

Then why Do they prescribe "Shade" as a Goal in the arcane egg. Not saying the "shades" as we know them from the vessels are the same thing, but it is likely the origin of where the pale king got some ideas about the void

[trail wagon]

The Weavers could've also told him about it

[heady drum]

this is true

[trail wagon]

They have used it in Pharloom

Or at least learned about it

We don't know if they actually used it*

[visual glacier]

Just another word for the darkness man

[trail wagon]

Actually

[timber pond]

Yes, another State of the Darkness.

[trail wagon]

Wasn't it suggested that the void kills?

[visual glacier]

No just a synonym

[trail wagon]

If regular bugs are exposed to it

[timber pond]

Well i dont know if its stated, but one can assume

[visual glacier]

It wrecks the soul

And eventually presumedly kills

[trail wagon]

It doens't seem to be the case anymore, at least not the way it was thought previosly

Because in act 3 it just takes over the bugs

[visual glacier]

That’s a mixture of the void and the haunting

[heady drum]

they did do research on void too in absolom, but idk if they ever tried making void beings besides that note on them giving it focus. theyd have no reason to because their threat was Silk, not RADIANCE, who affected the mind in a different way. i think they wanted to use void as a weapon instead but stopped when they saw either how dangerous it was, or they couldnt contain it

[stray fog]

Lace isn't haunted but she gets corrupted instead of directly dying

[heady drum]

wasnt it because void tained all the strands of silk which was already affecting the mind of bugs?

yea

[trail wagon]

yes, but still

[visual glacier]

She’s made of the same things of the threads

That’s why

[trail wagon]

it doesn't kill them instantly

[timber pond]

Also synonyms can be used to prescribe different purposes that are not succinctly the same, but are of similar source. "Shade" can be Many forms of Moulds As designed by different factions throughout the ages.

[visual glacier]

The only void beings we know were created were made by the pale king

[trail wagon]

btw, that's interesting

How does void leave Lace?

[stray fog]

Hornet beats her up

[visual glacier]

Think of her like a sponge

[stray fog]

That apparently undoes the corruption

[visual glacier]

Hornet is squeezing out every drop

[trail wagon]

Ohh, she's made of silk

[heady drum]

theres also summoned savior, altho idk how to describe that case. its not like its sentient, more so just a natural disaster given a body

[trail wagon]

but it doesn't work with other bugs?

[trail wagon]

I don't.. like this.. analogy..

[visual glacier]

It’s something to do with the vassals and masters and steelhearts, we don’t have enough information about them

[heady drum]

yea

[stray fog]

The other bugs were too week to withstand all that

[trail wagon]

It's like a void mass but flying

[trail wagon]

prolly

[visual glacier]

Anyway summoned savior is just tendrils wrapped around some corpses presumably

[trail wagon]

.

[heady drum]

i think it says that in the journal entry as well

[trail wagon]

also

I've mentioned that already

[stray fog]

Is the vassal thought that the summoned saviour could defend her against the masters, wouldn't the masters be weak?

[visual glacier]

Not the same

Void masses are specifically black threaded

[timber pond]

Yes, that we know of. But im certain he situated his palace in the depths where the AC dwelled for a reason, what with all the Lost Knowledge on arcane eggs and artifacts. If he could read Arcane eggs, then it would make sense As to why The Climb out of the Abyss monolouge he has , so eerily reflects the Tablets in the silksong abyss like a mirrior. this was a great video for inspration on this idea i have.https://youtu.be/t_-6Bvl41ds

[visual glacier]

Yeah I’m aware

He thought the vessels could be pure because of the writings of the ancient civilization

[trail wagon]

insightful, I've watched it

[trail wagon]

well, SIMILAR

[visual glacier]

Yes similar

[stray fog]

The ancient civilization also knew about shades

[visual glacier]

Lord of shades is the knight

After getting voidheart

[trail wagon]

Yeah, this parallel is 100% intentional

[stray fog]

Yeah but why would I call it the lord of shades if I didn't know what a shade was

[trail wagon]

There's no way they literally thematically repeat the same thing in both texts

[visual glacier]

Probably some prophecy shit

[trail wagon]

Yeah

[visual glacier]

Idk

[trail wagon]

Wdym?

I think the AC wanted to achieve something like Shade Lord state, but prolly never did

[stray fog]

That possibility is even more interesting

I want to make a new headcanon based on this

[timber pond]

Yes exactly! Im just symply saying the way They Used the term "shade" might have similarly aplied to some other Existence prior to the vessels creation. If this is true, Then the AC might have been entirely wrong. and that is what predicates my theory of "The masters might be shade Adjacent" or some kind of Combined AC entity that did not end up "devoid" like they wanted.

[visual glacier]

Blackwyrm is void wyrm

I’m just kidding guys don’t kill me

[trail wagon]

okay puts silkshot back

[trail wagon]

Are you talking about the Steel masters?

[stray fog]

(I already have one)

[visual glacier]

The masters are related to void but there really is not enough information yet

[trail wagon]

Honestly, I've always thought about their obsession more in a poetic and philosophical sense, like they wanted to achieve complete peace - no thought, no will

[visual glacier]

And the vassals might’ve been chosen by the masters because of their ability to summon void

[frigid belfry]

steel masters sound interesting as hell for a third game

[trail wagon]

I don't care if it's cannon btw, in my mind it always will be, it's cooler

[visual glacier]

I need more fayforn and steel lore

[heady drum]

id be suprised if they werent dlc or the third game

[frigid belfry]

they actively police and hunt higher beings

[trail wagon]

Again, are THE masters the ones Zi and Jinn are talking about?

[frigid belfry]

fucking hell

[visual glacier]

Yes

[trail wagon]

I'm almost certain they are gonna be there

It's the best grand finale

[frigid belfry]

hollow knight: steelwyrm or sum

[trail wagon]

The masters obsessed with the void vs THE void HB (Shade Lord)

[visual glacier]

Steel assassin sharpe is 100% coming to a team cherry game as a boss in one way or another

He’s a backer boss

[stray fog]

The steel masters have potential to be the strongest force in that universe

[visual glacier]

Powerscaling unseen characters, what is this? One piece?

[frigid belfry]

now im curious how strong the shade lord is once we get the steel masters in somewhere

[heady drum]

granted we got no info on them yet, but i feel like the city of steel is studying other kingdoms to know what not to do instead of just surveying like some diving gods or whatever. thats why they are still around as a living kingdom.

which is the purpose of vassals

[frigid belfry]

they have enough power to police the use of void and then hunt hb's and pb's

[timber pond]

Nahs it would be Hollow knight: Steel soul.

[trail wagon]

It would be hilarious if it takes 7-8 more years to finish the third game, and the backer will finally see his character in a Hollow Knight game, 18-19 years after he made a donation

[frigid belfry]

pretty powerful id say

[visual glacier]

Source?

[timber pond]

IF you Decline Zis wish

[trail wagon]

Zi's dialogue

[stray fog]

The entire game is in steel soul mode

[frigid belfry]

"Pale It... You would reject the role? Are you not tamed, bound, by Masters?... You would know... obedience is essential.

Recall, the fate of those who defy... Even you higher... Especially you higher..."

[trail wagon]

She talks about compression of HBs

[visual glacier]

Zi is fucking terrified of them

[frigid belfry]

zi directly says her masters tame and bound pale beings

or higher beings

[visual glacier]

Also hornet is JUST higher not a higher being

[timber pond]

She is still More Pale being than Most

[visual glacier]

No she doesn’t

[trail wagon]

Honestly, at first I thought she was talking about HBs being innately prone to punish those who don't do what they want, and Hornet would know that as the one who is partially a HB and has interacted with other HBs throughout her life

[frigid belfry]

kind of does

at the very least they tame and bound those with hb lineage

[trail wagon]

One of my favorite dialogues in the game, I literally get goosebums when I think about how powerful these bluds are

[visual glacier]

She assumes everyone is bound by the masters because that’s all she knows

[frigid belfry]

"especially you higher"

doesnt sound like it

[trail wagon]

Not pale beings, yeah

[frigid belfry]

zi is pretty aware and even considers the thought of escaping her masters

[visual glacier]

She says the fate of those who defy, she doesn’t explicitly say it’s being bound

[trail wagon]

BTW

Guys

[visual glacier]

She is obviously scared of a fate of what would happen if she defies the masters

[frigid belfry]

"Pale It... You would reject the role? Are you not tamed, bound, by Masters?... You would know... obedience is essential.

Recall, the fate of those who defy... Even you higher... Especially you higher..."

[visual glacier]

She doesn’t say the fate is being bound

[trail wagon]

I think there's some sort of hierarchy, where basically each steel "seer" gets a regular bug similar to Jiji and Sula

[frigid belfry]

she outright says those like hornet are bound by her masters

[stray fog]

Still, they do something bad to higher beings

[visual glacier]

They are called steelhearts btw

[heady drum]

also the note on how the vassal is being hunted to be killed after touching the dark. maybe they want a monopoly on void (assuming the assasins have void traits). or simply using the void for selfish reason like the vassal did is a sin to the masters. idk

[visual glacier]

She literally doesn’t but I’m done with this topic

[edgy nebula]

never noticed how zi and jinn have similar horn things

[trail wagon]

As much as I want to believe they are actually this powerful, I would also like to point out that it might be an exaggeration, because Zi is just terrified of her masters, maybe they're not THAT powerful, and she is just too scared

[trail wagon]

I've heard that, but where does this name come from?

[visual glacier]

Sula dialogue

[trail wagon]

Both Sula and Jiji summon the void, so I think it would make sense to draw a parallel between them

[trail wagon]

Oh okay, I missed this specific part

[visual glacier]

Jiji is definitely jinn’s vassal

[heady drum]

100%

[stray fog]

Vassal < confessor < assassin < seer

[trail wagon]

Yeah, it seems like void is considered some kind of an abomination

[trail wagon]

What?

[stray fog]

Hierarchy

[trail wagon]

Ohhhh

[edgy nebula]

pretty sure confessor jiji is also just a vassal

[visual glacier]

Jiji is actively defying the masters in classic mode

[trail wagon]

I think Jinn and Zi are in the same position

[visual glacier]

Confessor isn’t part of the higherarchy

[trail wagon]

Yeah, Jinn says she has a friend she would give the rancid eggs to

Despite the fact she hates them

It's probably Jiji

[heady drum]

was there ever any dialogue on why they wanted rancid eggs?

[visual glacier]

Zi is a seer, she’s like surveiling pharloom

[trail wagon]

Although Jiji is not afraid of summoning TK's shade for some reason

[visual glacier]

Food

[heady drum]

makes sense

[trail wagon]

Maybe they are very hungery

[stray fog]

Confessor and vassal are pretty different titles

[trail wagon]

"no cost too great..."

[visual glacier]

Again, she’s actively defying the masters

[trail wagon]

Better being bound by the masters but full then being free but starving I guess

[trail wagon]

Yeah, kinda

[heady drum]

i reckon jiji is also tainted by the dark, albeit in a less direct way. i think steel is the trope of powerful force that cannot intervene but just watch. Jiji is actively interfering but isnt running away or rejecting her role

[stray fog]

If a confessor was a different post altogether, then her summoning void wouldn't count as defiance, because she might be allowed to do that

[trail wagon]

I think there might've not been enough Steelheart lore at the time when they added these two to the base game

[trail wagon]

What I'm saying, is that Sula will be punished for interacting with the void, which makes me think Jiji might be too, or perhaps the difference is that one is not allowed to do that simply becase they're of a "lower class", if it makes sense

[heady drum]

i think its this too. there wasnt gonna be a pharloom originally either. then it expanded and they made it.

[stray fog]

Like how delicate flowers are called ever blooms in silksong

[edgy nebula]

jiji doesnt summon void, she summons regrets

if you say regrets are void then youre saying hornet is void

[unique canopy]

It's entirely possible that Jiji had training and permission to do so, while Sula is tarnished because of their untrained and sloppy recklessness.

[trail wagon]

I think they did want Pharloom to be a separate kingdom from the very beginning, as the 2017 map sketches show that the Citadel, Greymoor and the Marrow (Bone Forest) were already there

[visual glacier]

Actually, we can look back on some of jinn’s dialogue and see some interesting connections

[trail wagon]

She summons TK's shade which is..?

[edgy nebula]

that's tk's lingering regret

[trail wagon]

I don't think they are. It's THE everbloom

[edgy nebula]

because shes summoning regret

[trail wagon]

THE Everbloom is different from just A delicate flower, as far as I understand

[visual glacier]

“...It refuses to trade...? It has a will... all Its own. Can refuse. Jinn will keep waiting... until a gift comes.” This is probably referencing her being controlled or “bound” by the masters rather than her knowing the purpose of the vessels

[trail wagon]

Yeah, agreed, although I get an impression that any regular bugs under the rule of the Masters are not allowed to interact with the void whatsoever, but might be misinterpretation though

[trail wagon]

I did recently. But I forgor ahahha

[stray fog]

So she's like a therapist who helps people deal with their regrets

Different from a vassal

[trail wagon]

I've always thought it was because she is surprised TK has a will of their own because they're void

[edgy nebula]

that isnt related to regrets though

[visual glacier]

Yeah that’s what the fanbase assumed before silksong, I haven’t seen anyone make the connection I just did but I doubt that I’m the first

[trail wagon]

What are you talking about? TK's shade IS void, Jiji summons TK's shade, so void

[trail wagon]

It might be both, but I don't think Jinn doesn't have a mind of her own, in fact she has an opinion on rancid eggs

[stray fog]

This would also imply that she offered her services as a confessor in dirt mouth (before she went to sleep)

[trail wagon]

Ohhh okay

[edgy nebula]

she says she summons regrets, we never see regrets mentioned again iirc, other than hornet's lingering regret when she dies

[trail wagon]

Yeah, it's also interesting because it's not really clear why she's there

[heady drum]

could just be because of the 'narrarator' of each game. hornet would know what the flower is called because she was living in hallownest before its collapse. the knight was in the abyss or outside the kingdom during this time, and didnt hear the name. that or its simply the devs wanting to name it something other than delicate flower

[edgy nebula]

im pretty sure jiji summons whatever that is, and tk's shade is a side effect

[visual glacier]

She does, she just doesn’t have much control over her life. She’s constantly questioning her purpose and saying it must just be to serve

[trail wagon]

I think she is just talking about shades, just a fancy putting

[trail wagon]

I mean, kinda similar to Lifeblood/Plasmium

[stray fog]

Could be

[trail wagon]

TK got the flower from Ze'mer who literally brought them to Hallownest though

[edgy nebula]

if she summons shades then 1. thats really stupid because the vessels are a species exclusive to hallownest, and 2. that doesnt make sense cause she's summoning the void

[heady drum]

yeah exactly. same thing but different name

[heady drum]

may have forgot this detail

[trail wagon]

It can be interpreted both ways I think

[trail wagon]

1. They're void, which is not exclusive to Hallownest
2. Why?

[edgy nebula]

steel city bugs get hunted down for summoning void

[trail wagon]

I mean Plasmium is what Zylotol/his master came up with, so it's not an official name

[trail wagon]

What?

[trail wagon]

Where did you get that from?

[visual glacier]

She’s actively defying the masters

[edgy nebula]

that's the entire plot for the vassal lost quest

[heady drum]

Masters hunting the vassal for touching the dark

[trail wagon]

We were discussing it previously, it seems like Jiji is not a regular bug

[trail wagon]

But we've discussed it above and came to the conclusion she's not just a Vassal

[trail wagon]

I don't think her summoning TK's shade is canon at all

[heady drum]

yea lowkey kinda forgot we just had this conversation

[edgy nebula]

confessor jiji doesnt seem like she's on the run at all

[heady drum]

i also think its entirely gameplay based

[visual glacier]

Because jinn isn’t there to watch her

[stray fog]

This too

[trail wagon]

Because cannonically the Knight would just die, they cannot kill their own shade because they wouldn't have control over their body. If you die for the second time in front of your own shade there will briefly be two shades visible which is obviously not canon either

[edgy nebula]

she mentions jinn in her dialogue iirc, or atleast implies her

[heady drum]

knightosis

[visual glacier]

She doesn’t, she does mention the masters though

[trail wagon]

Yeah

[edgy nebula]

doesnt she stay she's still under their influence though

also i do feel like we're getting a bit off the rails from the original convo

[trail wagon]

I don't think there's an easy way out of servitude

[trail wagon]

Why?

[trail wagon]

There were several original convos lol

[edgy nebula]

this isnt about regrets/void anymore

[trail wagon]

😅

[visual glacier]

Hornet literally calls jiji scurrilous and scheming

[trail wagon]

was it about it initially? 😅

[stray fog]

New headcanon

The ancient civilization went on to establish the steel order. That's why the steel masters are so experienced with / involved with void

[trail wagon]

skurry

[edgy nebula]

yes that's why we were talking about it

[trail wagon]

They might be tied to each other, yeah

But honestly I get a feeling the Masters oppose the void rather than worship it

[heady drum]

it could also just be they are a bit relaxed or something along those lines. I assume Jiji was there for a long long time since shes watching hallownests dead kingdom. meanwhile the other vassal hasnt been there as long and is watching it still in the process of dying

[trail wagon]

Or they might want to use it for their own gain, but in a different way from what AC would do

[visual glacier]

Maybe the steel masters just discovered an abyss and used the ancient civilizations writings to control it

[trail wagon]

Are you suggesting the Masters wouldn't actually punish Jiji and Sula is overreacting?

[trail wagon]

Maybe

I mean honestly pretty much anything related to the Masters are pure speculations, we don't know shi about them except that they exist

[visual glacier]

And they are related the void and have the means to make steel hearts and control bugs, whether through actual mind control or manipulation

[heady drum]

i think its moreso Jiji is a senior and is still doing their job, so they have more wiggleroom if this makes sense. Sula actively tried to run away and defy the masters. and the kindgom sulas watching isnt even dead yet

[stray fog]

Maybe the ancient civilization learned something about the void that caused a change of heart in some of them, and those individuals went on to become the steel people

(pure speculation and headcanon)

[trail wagon]

Yeah, that too

[timber pond]

Bro came to the same conclusion i did🔥

[trail wagon]

I don't think it would necessarily matter in terms of what is and isn't allowed

[trail wagon]

I mean, it's interesting, I like i t

[timber pond]

I dont they "the Steel people' nad "the Masters" are the same

[heady drum]

they could have more control because of the nature of their own bodies is different. i couldve misread it in the steel soul mode, but arent the steelharts made of growstone?

[trail wagon]

pepole

[visual glacier]

They aren’t confirmed to be

[stray fog]

Im talking about the founders of the steel civilization

[trail wagon]

Where does it come from?

there is some stone in Zi's room btw

[heady drum]

Zis dialogue when giving hornet the growstone as a reward for the quest

[trail wagon]

wouldn't it make sense for them to be made of steel though?.. 🤓

[heady drum]

i mean in hollowknight, wood isnt actually wood but is something called shellwood

growstone could be another term for steel

[timber pond]

@stray fog

[heady drum]

idk

[trail wagon]

Zi shall accept the happening... shall pray the Masters still see her loyal... and Zi too will share the hope... that her vassal lives long unbound.
A small gift for you, pale It... for the thought, complex... rock of the home spear... and of Zi's birth. May it aid your further action in this land.

[trail wagon]

Not really confirmed they're MADE of it

[trail wagon]

hmmm

perhaps

Also, "home spear"

Steel Spear sound cool

Also

Watch long... Record clear... Remember... Bound by purpose... Bound by ore... Forever... ...

Could pale ore have something to do with them too?

[heady drum]

to me, home spear sounds like a name for a giant mound or mountain thing. the growstone is just a fragment ripped off it.

or its the city of steels equivalent to the cogwork core

idk

[trail wagon]

Would be cool

[edgy nebula]

i dont think so, we dont know if theyre talking about pale ore there

[trail wagon]

yeah, but still

their color is kinda pale

[heady drum]

their color is also kinda steel

[trail wagon]

some intersting observation

[trail wagon]

say that again

[mint stratus]

I assumed it was from roots, so in a way was wood? or at least a highly durable plant fiber

[edgy nebula]

like some kinda.. steel heart...

[heady drum]

could it be how they communicate with the masters? like this is how the masters know whats going on without being there. unless they have dream powers

[trail wagon]

I think that's just a coincidence though

[trail wagon]

I mean most likely, it doesn't seem like they have a clear connection

and also doesn't seem like they move too much

[visual glacier]

Zi is a surveillance system

[trail wagon]

Would be weird for them to just record all their shit and then return to the masters a couple of thousands of years later with a full notebook of everything that has happened in the kingdom

[stray fog]

🔥

[heady drum]

could just be because of how long theyve been there, or the weather. kinda like watcher at the edge being stuck till you interact with them

[trail wagon]

I think the Watcher is actually watching the edge

[trail wagon]

They're like a guardian or something like that

[heady drum]

maybe. i just assumed they were there for so long they went numb. dont they only fight once you hit them or play music

[trail wagon]

Zi is supposed to observe, and I don't really get how exactly she would be doing it by sitting in a cave..

[trail wagon]

oh yeah, Zi is

[mint stratus]

Perhaps the knowledge of rune making allows for cultural or use distinction, while retaining core similarities that allow it to function?

[trail wagon]

idk honestly if I was a designer in TC I would just create cool looking runes

So they would look epic and mysterious

They may not necessarily have to mean anything at all

you can kinda connect it to this too

[mint stratus]

The middle bit of all the runes resemble a tuning fork to me honestly

[trail wagon]

hmmm

It might actually make sense

the one who makes the rune atunes themselves to some aura type magical atmospheric uckery

[heady drum]

didnt godseekers do this too?

[trail wagon]

Btw....

I just realized...

[trail wagon]

Looks somewhat similar, especially the shape

[mint stratus]

Wait where did the second image come from?

[trail wagon]

it's some fan art, I copied it from Reddit

Radance thighs???

[mint stratus]

The literal giant tuning fork on mount fay

[trail wagon]

yeah, that is

[trail wagon]

I mean technically that's how it works, it also amplifies Hornet's needolin shredding

In the past couple of days I've learned more about HK then I've ever known thanks to this server

[mint stratus]

The obsession with attunement really makes you think

[trail wagon]

😭

[cedar skiff]

my expanded attempt at connecting pinstress to the hive.

join me on the next episode where we will ask ourselves if the craws beaks are actually hivesteel

[trail wagon]

of course she existed before the Citadel brochacholington

[cedar skiff]

for all intents and purposes this is purely smoking crack

[trail wagon]

She says the Citadel asked Pistresses to help them

[cedar skiff]

well yeah i feel like itd be important to mention on this professional graphic

[trail wagon]

They literally copied their attacks and used to design the Second Sentinel

[mint stratus]

I have decided this is funny enough to go next to my belief in “pale king is definitely zote don’t ask for evidence just trust me”

[cedar skiff]

hey i have evidence

[mint stratus]

I fully support you

[trail wagon]

I mean all of this is pretty sound, expect the attack comparison, I think it's just a basic attack a lot of characters do

[cedar skiff]

thank you. it’s difficult going two months with no new silksong content.

[cedar skiff]

is it? i didnt bother doing further digging

[trail wagon]

buckle up, there's 6 years and 10 months more

[cedar skiff]

i wanted to find vespa hornet attack similarities and found nothing 💔

[mint stratus]

They are also both women

[trail wagon]

I'm sure Hornet learned that from Vespa

[cedar skiff]

oh yeah that is the one

the parry aura farm stance

[trail wagon]

I don't think Hornet does it ever again though

[cedar skiff]

holy fucking shit

[cedar skiff]

its after parrying

she does it against phantom too

[trail wagon]

She only learns it when defeating Phantom 😭

[cedar skiff]

after cutscene tied parrying more specifically

[trail wagon]

Although there is an attack similar to Vespa in Phantom cutscene

[cedar skiff]

okay well this is her memory though so id assume she knew that before anyway

[rotund surge]

She remembered it!!!

[trail wagon]

That would be a cool detail though

[rotund surge]

Now that you talk about it parry is the only skill we dont bind

[trail wagon]

idk

[trail wagon]

not really similar

[cedar skiff]

its basically the same parry cutscene thingy in both so yeah i think battling phantom had her relearn it

[trail wagon]

Yeah

[cedar skiff]

thats cool af

[mint stratus]

They don’t call her the gendered child for nothing

[cedar skiff]

the gender of hallownest

[trail wagon]

Why does Hornet look like that here 😭

[trail wagon]

Am I the only one seeing it?

she looks like a jumping goat

or a sheep

Or palestag 👀

alr I gotta head out

[mint stratus]

WE SHALL CONTINUE YOUR WORK 🫡

[visual glacier]

Fast ban

Good job mods

[mint stratus]

I didn’t even comprehend what was posted before they gunned it down

[visual glacier]

Same old

[mint stratus]

Hey could we link vespa wielding a type of needle to this theory?

[cedar skiff]

speak of the needle a lot of characters just seem to be familiar with that weapon type lol

the bees have aura and influence

[cedar skiff]

it almost looks like shes on all 4s

😭

tjose little bug legs always look strange

[mint stratus]

To be fair one of her parents has six limbs, and the other is a wyrm

[mint stratus]

What’s with the grok photos??

Are those bots or?

[viscid ridge]

i dont know how to prove it, but im like 99% sure these surface guys were supposed to be in Pharloom bay

Cause they look more like their supposed to float on water than they look like they are flying. Their wings are basically useless

[young dune]

whats the explanation for hornet reviving when dying

[viscid ridge]

That should be considered as a gameplay quirk, but if you want a lore explanation its probably a form of foresight

[young dune]

where does the cocoon come from

[viscid ridge]

Honestly no idea, thats why dying isn't really considered canon. Same with the shade in HK. Its just a gameplay exclusive thing, doesn't really have a bearing on lore

[young dune]

I wish they made it look a way that could be explained

[cedar skiff]

the common theory is that she doesn’t actually die

its her “foreseeing” a death

which is why she wakes up startled on the bench

[young dune]

I get that but it doesnt explain the cocoon, does it?

[cedar skiff]

gameplay mechanic i guess

[viscid ridge]

Just there for the sake of gameplay. Either that or the shade and cacoon is connected to "regrets" like we learn in the first game

[shy dome]

I may be stupid but I genuinely don't the fact that (act 3 spoilers just in case) ||the void, the one that kills everything on sight, just randomly chose to keep lace alive, only cover her in void and control her, without even knowing hornet was going to come save her, it just kept her alive and that's so weird honestly to me||

[viscid ridge]

To be fair, the reason Lace is alive isn't because of the void, its because of her Mother keeping her alive. If GMS wasn't there, Lace would have probably died faster than normal bugs, cause she is made entirely of soul.

[gilded spire]

Yeah about that, what are the connections we know between the nature of silk and soul? How much do we know?

[prime scaffold]

Btw did this guy actually die or where he go

[edgy nebula]

he’s alive in act 3

you fight him in a quest and once you defeat him if you come back into the room and wait a bit on the edge he’ll be peeking out from the floorboards and get scared and go back in once he sees you

[heavy gyro]

Silk is made from soul

Silk also seems to be destroyed by void

Unlike soul

[viscid ridge]

They are the same, but silk is a bit more versatile than soul. Soul is mostly used to create bursts of energy and the likes, while silk can be turned into runes that can create a ton of different effects. I am just not sure what the exact difference is, because there seems to be a ton of seals in Hollow Knight that looks like silk runes, while also seeming to be completely made of soul, like the wyrm corpse seal, white lady's seal, and the abyss seal. So maybe soul can only be turned into shields, but silk can be turned into other types of spells aswell

[viscid ridge]

Soul also gets destroyed by void, it says that void seeks out soul to devour or something of the sort

[heavy gyro]

Wingmoulds are a mix of soul and void and they somehow coexist together

Maybe it's pk magic idk

Maybe void can choose whether to destroy soul or not which would explain silk void threads too

[viscid ridge]

Honestly the collector and the moulds may have some soul, but i think they are maybe just void that have wills imprinted on them. I'll have to do more research cause im rusty on that side of the lore

[heavy gyro]

Wingmoulds are said to have a "tortured mix of soul and void"

In silksong journal entry

I guess the "tortured" implies that this mixture is unstable so yeah maybe void does destroy soul

[viscid ridge]

I think that void corrupts soul before destroying it, like its in the process off devouring it. We know in the first game the void was able to meld with soul via the howling wraiths

[heavy gyro]

[viscid ridge]

Yeah, i think maybe uncontrolled void destroys soul, but in some circumstances like the moulds and spells it can coexist

[heavy gyro]

Yeah probably

[drifting apex]

what was the sin committed by the first sinner?

[visual glacier]

Apostasy

“Penitent, First of the First.
Guilty of the sin of apostasy.
Penance by constriction.
Absolution denied.”

[drifting apex]

was she prisoned by the weavers/the citadel before it was handed over to the conductors?

[visual glacier]

Presumably the weavers but we don’t know for sure

[drifting apex]

i thought the weavers didnt like gms why would they punish someone for rebelling against her

[visual glacier]

Keep the illusion up or keep her from spreading the word about the weavers not being holy

[drifting apex]

hmmm

did the bugs of the citadel know of and pray to gms?

[visual glacier]

Not as far as I know

[severe escarp]

why doesn't hornet use soul to heal

[visual glacier]

Silk is way faster

Also she’s naturally produces silk from soul

Like without controlling it

[severe escarp]

oh

[viscid ridge]

She does, she just uses it in silk form

And i think that Hornet is able to focus to a degree, but she either doesn't like to use it, or due to her only being half pale being she isn't able to use it as easily as the vessels

[stray fog]

Hornet has a focus

[viscid ridge]

I know she does, the mask maker also mentions she has, but there is a reason she doesn't use soul even if she has godly focus

[fervent sigil]

is phantom female or non binary

[sudden bison]

most likely female, otherwise Lace wouldn't call her "sister"

[plucky flume]

hey just beat silksong and got the ending. So is hornet the new grandmother silk? Is this a good ending. Does hornet become something similar to shade lord?

[sudden bison]

i assume you got the Weaver Queen ending?

[plucky flume]

Yes

[heavy gyro]

It's a bad ending

[plucky flume]

Why is it a bad ending?

hornet gains a lot of power no?

[heavy gyro]

Yeah but she loses her identity

And becomes a new tyrant

[sudden bison]

yeye

[plucky flume]

Oh so it's not her anymore?

[sudden bison]

then again, the entire citadel was immediately covered in silk the moment Hornet bounded GMS

[plucky flume]

like did she lose her mind to the silk or smth

[sudden bison]

pretty much yea

she pretty much gave in to GMS's instincts as a higher being, as a result/consequence of binding her crest

[plucky flume]

ah

so she didn't realize this would happen before binding of course

[sudden bison]

however, i can suggest you another point of view that will explain said ending further

before fighting GMS, try fulfilling the wishes on all 3 towns (Bone Bottom, Bellhart and Songclave)

[plucky flume]

I'm decently sure I did all the wishes?

I haven't checked bone bottom in awhile though

Though maybe me not exploring putrified ducts has something to do with it?

[heavy gyro]

Yeah u gotta explore that

And talk to the fleamaster

[stray fog]

@plucky flume you are likely to see spoilers in this channel

[fervent sigil]

ouch sorry

[stray fog]

?

[fervent sigil]

spoiled

[stray fog]

Spoilers are allowed here

I was just warning xray

[fervent sigil]

so is there only 3 endings (+mushroom ending)?

[stray fog]

Yes

[fervent sigil]

also idk if we count strung to serve

[plucky flume]

ohk

[lone folio]

It's cut but it got kept in the game for some kind of reason so it shouldn't be counted in but it can always be used for speculation even if it's not canon to the story

[meager summit]

Here’s why Hornet was brought to pharloom: So, bc the Weavers used silk, it influences Grandmother Silk so she can drive the bugs insane . Soon, she starts hunting down every single Weaver. Bc Hornet is part Weaver (bc of Herrah) so she was brought to Pharloom to end her.(for good.)

[inner torrent]

So now that gms is in the void and the void supposedly isn't attacking pharloom
Do you think the bugs still have the effects of silk extending their lives?

[solid yoke]

this might be a really really dumb question but why does hornet get silk by hitting enemies? atleast in hk we knew that soul was an integral part in every bug that was latent in most but i think i might've missed something in silksong about silk because afaik, hornet only has silk in her shell, and if thats the explanation then idk why she has to hit enemies to get it and heal and do her silk skill stuff she basically would have infinite silk in her reserve

[livid frigate]

She does have silk regenration in her body(from the silk hearts), but its not enough ig. From what I understand of the lore, in the past silk was injected into bugs. So their descendents across pharloom all have silk in their bodies. The haunting could be another reason.

[solid yoke]

but if thats the case then she shouldnt be able to get silk from hunters march since karmelita has made the ant tribe people somewhat resistant to the haunting

[livid frigate]

Btw is wisp thicket related to the Grimm Troupe from Hollow Knight in anyway?

[livid frigate]

But arent the ants still haunted? Iirc she got old n cant protect the ants anymore

[solid yoke]

oo good question

[solid yoke]

but snail shaman mentions that karemelita did make them resistant to it

[livid frigate]

Now that u mention it, it also doesnt make sense that we get silk from abyss creatures

[solid yoke]

• theres a small wind up animation

for like

pilgrims

like you know the thing where the silk like gets into the pilgrims before they stand up

i dont think i ve seen a single animation like that for the people in hunters march

[livid frigate]

I think thats the reanimation process of dead corpses

[solid yoke]

yeah

maybe