sk-lore

[craggy smelt]

eva seems like an effort to create a copy of Silk

maybe they figured she'd be a controllable version

[fathom hill]

like how did the weavers even intend to control a god

[craggy smelt]

building one from scratch, ig

[fathom hill]

im guessing that one really was out of pure desperation

[trail wagon]

Do you think it's similar to Lace and Phantom?

[fathom hill]

cuz that seems awfully convoluted and reckless

like the pk killing a billion children just cuz

[trail wagon]

I mean "we have GMS at home"

[craggy smelt]

maybe!
weavers can create life from silk too (weaverlings)

she might've been like a more complicated weaverling or servitor, a living creation

[trail wagon]

who are weaverlings?

[fathom hill]

I actually believe eva to be an ascended sylph slug

[craggy smelt]

the little guys created by the Weaversong charm in the first game

[fathom hill]

like how gms ascended the weavers, the weavers tried the same

[trail wagon]

Well, there's no proof of that

[trail wagon]

are they called that?

[craggy smelt]

I think so
edit - yep

Summons weaverlings to give the lonely bearer some companionship and protection.

[fathom hill]

Sylph slug, sylphsong mainly

weird ass word

sylph

why is it spelled like that

[craggy smelt]

its from mythology, an air spirit

aigh

[trail wagon]

shut

wrap it up

[trail wagon]

how do you get these quotes?

[fathom hill]

also eva is not direct offspring obviously

[trail wagon]

yes

but she is born of "shell and rune"

[fathom hill]

eva does say that the container outside is as well her shell than the form within or something

[trail wagon]

I don't think she is just an evolved bug

[craggy smelt]

the wiki
https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Weaversong

[trail wagon]

no, that's not what I mean

[fathom hill]

but that could be eva just saying she has spent her whole life there

[trail wagon]

Like the way he quoted it in his message

[craggy smelt]

oh, if you want to put it in a quote block, start the line with '>'

bam!

[fathom hill]

I mean yah

[trail wagon]

Thanks :3

[fathom hill]

prolly not totally

the weavers are not in the level of gms

[trail wagon]

how hahaha

[fathom hill]

gms can just create consciousness outta thin air apparently

[craggy smelt]

needs a space after the >

[trail wagon]

a

[craggy smelt]

heeey

[trail wagon]

oh yeah, thanks

this is the most important part of Silksong

the loading screen

I wonder what it is

[sinful nimbus]

empty weaver tomb?

[trail wagon]

I don't think so

[craggy smelt]

looks like bone chapel

or moss town chapel place

whatever it's called

[trail wagon]

yes

But it's not there

This asset can be seen in the cut part of Atla

just went here

[fathom hill]

not the exact same ig

[trail wagon]

Looks important

[trail wagon]

It's above the finger

[craggy smelt]

aaw, weavenest bellway~!

[trail wagon]

yeaah

[craggy smelt]

so this was an earlier version of Weavenest Atla at some point?
I dont recognize anything

[trail wagon]

Welcome back, Isma

[trail wagon]

Yes

[trail wagon]

It's from 2019 I believe

[craggy smelt]

dammit, why they change stuff
i want to play both versions now

[trail wagon]

me too lol

and the old Karak too

[limpid summit]

I been saying this

Of all characters why is she similar to Isma in design

It’s so crazy

[trail wagon]

ACTUALLY

Isma also has six eyes

two pairs of three

[craggy smelt]

oo, pretty

hrmmm...

just had a thought
if we get a Red Memory DLC for the boss rush, maybe you can fight unique bosses based on some of the shit Hornet binds with
crest guys, Eva, etc.

you fought nailmasters after all, continuing the tradition of fighting the guys who teach you stuff

[fathom hill]

Oh it could be

or just put the pintresses in there and call it a day

[silk dirge]

this could be the act 3 door

nope

[stiff fable]

yo what is this and where

I finished 100% but dont remember this

at all

[silk dirge]

thats eva

[stiff fable]

oh dang really

[frosty gate]

Whats the topic now

[trail wagon]

eva

But I will change it

Here's some asset I don't remember

[frosty gate]

What about her?

[trail wagon]

she's cool af

[trail wagon]

and also looks similar to Isma

[stiff fable]

but I thought isma was dead

[trail wagon]

she is

but just something fun

[stiff fable]

oh

interesting

[unique canopy]

What if Isma actually was a Weaverspawn

[trail wagon]

cool idea

but keep it quiet somebody's gonna come and tell that ACTUALLY she's not

[unique canopy]

I mean I don't think it's ever been stated what exactly Isma was, some people were hypothesizing links to Nyleth somehow, so there's nothing directly contradicting the possibility, even though it's speculative

[edgy nebula]

i don't think isma's related to nyleth

they look kinda similar but at the end of the day their only real similarities are plants and white masks

[trail wagon]

Yeah, kinda. And they're also white

[craggy smelt]

I thought she might be mosskin related for a long time
but she might be a 'Seed' like Nyleth, there were apparently more than one

[trail wagon]

I think Isma wans't too important, as the mosskin were created by Unn

[stiff fable]

yeah I was thinking that isma looks more like nyleth

[trail wagon]

Nyleth looks more like a duck tbh

Idk if I'm the only one who sees it

[craggy smelt]

I thought of it as like Isma being an envoy to Hallownest from Greenpath, like someone to represent their interests and keep the peace

[trail wagon]

Yeah, but what I'm trying to say is that she wasn't like a HB or something like that

[craggy smelt]

yeah, nothing like that

[trail wagon]

ohhh i know

she's a swan

[craggy smelt]

I know some people suggest Nyleth is a higher being, I can't make up my mind on that

[edgy nebula]

prolly not

[trail wagon]

I think it makes sense, why not

She might be

[edgy nebula]

itd be weird if every heart was a normal bug and then there was just nyleth

[trail wagon]

Although not necessarily

I mean the fact her heart works for the ritual means she's gotta be pretty powerful

[stiff fable]

I was thinking of the leaf on top of nyleth, it kinda looks like the root on isma's head where u get ismas tear

[trail wagon]

Wdym "normal bug"

[frosty beacon]

they have the argument of basically:
unn = greenpath == nyleth = shellwood, which i don't really like

[trail wagon]

I mean kinda?

Why not

Although nothing really says SHE herself created Shellwood and its inhabitants, her being "the seed" doesn't inherently mean that

[edgy nebula]

every heart we see are normal bugs, just exceptionally strong

[frosty beacon]

yeah ts, they are obviously some of the most powerful non-hb bugs oat, but they are very clearly intended to not be hbs

i'm just thinking

[trail wagon]

not sure about Khann

[frosty beacon]

outside of the pale court, were there any bugs that could match or beat karm/khann in lore

[trail wagon]

I kinda agree

[trail wagon]

is Pale Court an official name?

[edgy nebula]

yes

[frosty beacon]

yes

[trail wagon]

I know it's the name of the mode

Okay

[edgy nebula]

khann is likely a normal bug, just with the power to control coral

we know other karakans can too if they spend enough time in the tower

khann just seems to have an affinity/special talent with it

[trail wagon]

Probably, he didn't create Karak, but he might be a descendant of a being who did

[edgy nebula]

yeah seems that way

[trail wagon]

Because he is their king

[frosty beacon]

born of coral and bad boss fights

[trail wagon]

Although he himself might not be a HB

[frosty beacon]

no mind to think

[edgy nebula]

the lore tablets call him a lord born strong, implying he isnt the first in his line

[trail wagon]

Don't insult ma boi Khann 😠

[frosty beacon]

khann is bottom 10 across both games not sorry

[trail wagon]

It also said born last to rule

[edgy nebula]

there are plenty bugs that could beat him, unless you just mean normal bugs

[trail wagon]

😠

[craggy smelt]

Shellwood is impressive, but yeah I don't know about it being HB scale impressive
Seth also mentions 'sacred seeds' plural, Sister Splinter mentions 'sisters long gone and 'other, sleeping' which could indicate a connection...
Nyleth might not have been the only one, just the first

[edgy nebula]

both games??? did i miss the secret khann fight in hk

actually wait no i cant read

[frosty beacon]

well like, for example, could a normal ass vessel beat khann or karm?

no even bv/lk, just like

a nobody

[edgy nebula]

a normal vessel? probably not no

[unique canopy]

A normal vessel got one-shotted by Hornet Protector, so no

[trail wagon]

I think she's talking about the Weavers, to be honest

I mean SS

[edgy nebula]

the hearts are in a really weird place, it's honestly hard to powerscale them, but we know karmelita is on a similar level to hornet and we can probably scale from there

[frosty beacon]

but you know what i mean, any chars, enemies, bosses, that have a reasonable shot to beat karm/khann, in either hallownest or pharloom, that are not hbs

[trail wagon]

I know gruz mother can't

so probably nobody can

except some extremely strong creatures beyond comprehension like Zango or Flukemother

[trail wagon]

She used to be pretty strong

Yeah, interestingly, we don't really seem to know of any HBs except GMS in Pharloom

I don't count Fayforn because there's nothing that really indicates they are

Also, do HBs always create somebody/something?

[stray fog]

Hallownest was a land of many gods according to the godseeker so maybe we won't get many higher beings in pharloom in dlcs either

[edgy nebula]

honestly? considering theyre all probably around on par with hornet? im not sure

maybe lace? other than that i dont know of any non-hb bosses that could beat them

[trail wagon]

I don't think all of the Hallownest "gods" are higher beings at all

[unique canopy]

Godseekers are super goofy with their definitions of gods

[stray fog]

True

[unique canopy]

Hi here's two Oblobbles, they count as gods

[stray fog]

But hallownest still had like 5 higher beings

[edgy nebula]

so sad we didnt get to fight the vengefly in the pantheon

[trail wagon]

Obviously these are not higher beings

[unique canopy]

Gorb is highest being! Gorb!

[trail wagon]

There are even husks...

in the background

Obviously none of these are even remotly HB

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Higher_Beings

Good page

[stray fog]

The shade lord is the only exception I can think of

[trail wagon]

Yes

And Hornet in the Weaver Queen ending, at least as far as we know so far

I think it would be really interesting to see an alternative non-cannon timeline with her being the Queen

[stiff fable]

shadelord or void first

[stray fog]

We only see the weaver queen for 5 seconds so not enough information there

But we don't see the shade lord that much either

[stiff fable]

void is a natural force right

[stray fog]

Yeah

[stiff fable]

we dont know where it came from

or who created the voice

void*

[stray fog]

I assumed that it has always existed

[trail wagon]

Probably

[trail wagon]

Most likely nobody

At least as of right now

[stiff fable]

was shadelord born from the void or void is created by the shadelord and then the shadelord rests until someone (the knight) reincarnates as the shadelord

[stray fog]

The oldest civilization that we know of worshipped the void, so they probably didn't create it

[trail wagon]

Yes

Honestly, I hope we'll never know

There are some things about universes like this that don't need to be explained, ever, at all

Like it's really breathtaking to think about who or what might've created the void

[stiff fable]

I cant wait for dlc

[trail wagon]

But I don't think this will ever be explained, and for the better

There will always be secrets

[stray fog]

The shade cloak statue recognizes the knight as the lord of shades so maybe there was a shade lord before the knight

But the ancient civilization is said to worship no god, so if there was a shade lord before the knight, it didn't exist during the ancient civilization

[stiff fable]

ic

or they could just not know about the shadelords existance

cuz it was asleep or smth

[trail wagon]

It only says it after we aquire Void Heart, so probably it was just an indicator of them knowing the Knight has become the Shade Lord

This statue is also called "Higher Being" in the game files

[stray fog]

Yeah I always found that weird

But file names are not canon unfortunately

I think in the beginning team cherry had different plans for what "higher being" meant

That would explain the lore Tablets in kings pass

[trail wagon]

yeah

[trail wagon]

You're right

[stray fog]

The lore tablet in the pharloom abyss says "we higher who see you seeking", and its probably written by the ancient civilization. So that statue could actually be a higher being

[craggy smelt]

or they're just like... above
literally higher up than the Void

[trail wagon]

Not necessarily

I mean yeah, it makes sense, but I don't think somebody calling themselves higher mean they're higher beings, or actually powerful at all by default

I can call myself and my friends some cool ass names to elevate ourselves in our own minds ahahah

[craggy smelt]

higher in this case could also be something like a reference to 'higher thought', bugs above the thought level of beasts
in contrast with the Void, which is described as 'empty', without mind, etc.

hence the ancients wanting it to 'cleanse' them of burdensome thoughts like fear and desire, referenced in the second tablet

[edgy nebula]

mmm coral

[half zenith]

It’s interesting that Hornet never seems to think or talk about what she was doing before she was kidnapped. No mention of Hallownest or who’s in it whatsoever.

Hell, we don’t even know how much time has passed.

Interesting that we may be dealing with the “the narrator conveniently only tells you selective bits of information on a need to know basis” form of unreliable narrator

The devs keeping everything related to Hallownest ambiguous via Hornet’s internal thoughts basically never being shown

She will never trust anyone in Pharloom enough to talk about her tragic backstory in any way other than little slips

[silk dirge]

if sherma or shakra saw red memory theyd go like "WHAT THE FUCK WHO ARE YOU"

[half zenith]

But that’s expected. What I’m interested in is that she has nothing to say about what Hallownest is like now, or who (if anyone) lives in Dirtmouth at the very least, or whether she’s ruling over anything or not, or whether there was even anything left to rule or if she was just traveling this whole time instead. You know, all the stuff fanfics speculate on

[silk dirge]

elderbug is probably dead by silksong tbh lol

[half zenith]

The good thing is, nobody’s hapoy postcanon fics where everyone lives happily ever after have been debunked by canon. The bad thing is, that’s because we have no fucking clue what IS canon

[spark valve]

narrative redeemed

[silk dirge]

elderbug reincarnated as pilby

[half zenith]

Hornet had this awesome life offscreen and none of it is ever relevant to Silksong

The citadel’s war crimes are so all consuming that not even Hornet’s super special OC bullshit is capable of escaping the plot black hole that is GMS’s need for attention

[silk dirge]

i mean tbh id like to think some bugs in pharloom have caught on hornet isnt just some regular bug doing shit for fun

shakra probably has

[half zenith]

Yeah

[silk dirge]

sherma after seeing hornet do a volt filament rune rage in whiteward

bro would be so fucking confused 😭

[half zenith]

We can wave off nobody recognizing her anywhere as “Pharloom is so far away from Hallownest that it wouldn’t matter how much power Hornet has or what her impact was”

[silk dirge]

i mean snail shamans probably know

maybe lace also

mask maker and eva possibly could figure it out

[half zenith]

I’m gonna be honest Hornet figured out the Snail Shamans before I did

[silk dirge]

she literally tells caretaker "i know what you are" so

thats that lol

[lilac hedge]

It seemed weird how they looked void but i didnt think much

[half zenith]

Yeah Hornet’s thought process isn’t being shown at all

[lilac hedge]

Then boom shamans

[silk dirge]

i mean chapel maid probably knew who hornet was at first glance tbh and was probably not saying everything

[half zenith]

All we see is what she chooses to say aloud, or what we are shown when interacting with something, or very occasionally a juicy hunters journal lore entry

[lilac hedge]

She prob saved us for that reason

[silk dirge]

i mean i doubt chapel maid wouldve wanted to be like "ok you just collapsed on the ground here im so sorry but im gonna need you to make this cool ass snare"

[twin dragon]

The bugs known for being shady powerhungy soul users are shady

[silk dirge]

i like how chapel maid acts like she doesnt know shit about the citadel when she knows everything lol

shes probably seen gms tbh

[half zenith]

I’m wondering if Hornet has anywhere to actually go home to or if she was kidnapped out of a hotel room in Disneyland for all we care

[twin dragon]

fucking, deepnest ruins or some shit

[silk dirge]

i mean she doesnt need to rest

[twin dragon]

everyone in hallownest is DEAD anyways

[silk dirge]

so probably she just never had a home

bellhome is one of the most peak things in silksong tho

[half zenith]

No that’s my point, Hallownest is dead and any postcanon headcanons I have do not matter because I feel like the game is implying that there was nobody and nothing left over post canon and all of Ao3 collectively went “That sign can’t stop me because I can’t read!”

[lilac hedge]

Bellhart might just be ome of the most goated places

[twin dragon]

hallownest's story is officially over

[thick imp]

so random pop in here but does anyone have any ideas on ||who tortured widow? i think it may have been the citadel bugs after weavers rebelled but haven’t seen an clear theories as of yet||

[half zenith]

To be fair fix it fics have their place and the devs have stated nothing on what happened post canon or what Hornet was doing before she was kidnapped, I’m just being realistic about what the devs intended

This is a metroidvania very much inspired by dark souls and the lore is that everyone you know and love is dead because of this avoidable tragedy of godly hubris. I’m not exactly expecting the writers to go back on that

That’s why we do fix it fics on ao3, lol. So that when canon reminds us we’re in a dark souls universe, we can all collectively ignore that and insert our own headcanons now lol

[timber pond]

It isn't really inspired by darksouls

Its just the metroid dead body ambiance 200 times all over the game

[dapper willow]

Hallownest is dead, but there are plently of bugs left to continue a new civilization

[craggy smelt]

it's time

the Age of the Fluke is at hand...

[dapper willow]

The hallownest sucessor tribes have to unite against the growing fluke horde

Now thats a great future plot idea

[sterile jacinth]

Eugh imagine only fighting flukes

That honestly sounds awful

[dapper willow]

I suppose it is
Could be a plot twist with lifeblood
But I dont want another infection plot in the hk universe

[stray fog]

Isn't flukemarm dead though

Atleast in the godhome endings

Not necessarily in dnm

[dapper willow]

Fluke hermit might become the new one

Or a new one could spring up...

[stuck berry]

could father of the flame (the actual diety not the giant totem) be a higher being or nah

or something intermediate like nyleth

[dapper willow]

Below nyleth

[stuck berry]

we need a proper ordering of higher beings

above would be the pales slightly below are the nightmare heart the radiance and the void and below are whoever can create life

it doesn't make sense to me how unn and nyleth do very similar things but somehow unn is higher

[dapper willow]

Unn shaped the plants out of her dream while nyleth just spread/ planted them

[robust wagon]

Yeah it's the inclusion of dreams that make unn a higher being

[hushed crater]

Also can being be both pale and dream because the radiance was stronger then the pale king even tho pale are higher so it maybe was both pale and dream

[hushed crater]

I think they may have seen the grim troupe (maybe when the waters stoped and khan died) and tried to replacate it's power to some success

[stuck berry]

nah

actually maybe

maybe khann's kingdom was big enough for the grimm troupe to pay a visit after it died

i don't think father of the flame is that closely related to it though

[craggy smelt]

I'm extremely certain Radiance was a pale being

and if she wasn't then yeah, she represents something even higher

considering she brought down a pale being's kingdom

[terse warren]

she was not

[craggy smelt]

sez you

[terse warren]

it is never stated anywhere that she was and we have no reason to assume that she was

[terse warren]

pale beings aren't really a thing that's similar to higher beings

[stuck berry]

yak is racially profiling her

[terse warren]

they're a completely different descriptor

[craggy smelt]

I'm not racially profiling her, I'm just saying all pale beings look alike to me

[stable violet]

why is that

[terse warren]

yak banned

[stable violet]

be specific

i wanna know

[terse warren]

Radiance wasn't "stronger" than the Pale King though

[craggy smelt]

we don't get many mentions of pale beings as a 'higher caste' in the first game, just mostly references to hallownest royalty
pretty much nobody talks about Radiance at all in the first game except Seer, who compares her to PK as both 'lights'

[terse warren]

because they both emit light yeah

[craggy smelt]

and Monomon, who does the same

[stuck berry]

sounds like a reach

she is objectively very bright

that's not something unique to pale beings

[craggy smelt]

also Pale King refers to her as 'blazing kin' in his private notes
GMS is also described as having light

[terse warren]

Lumaflies my favorite pale being

[stable violet]

yeah imma be real if rad was a pale being i feel like we would at least have seer say something like "pale light" but that doesnt happen

[terse warren]

where

[stable violet]

white lady isnt really described as light but yet she is refered as a pale being

[craggy smelt]

memories talk about Silk's 'light eternal' and similar

[terse warren]

Silk is confirmed Pale

[terse warren]

i can't find this

[craggy smelt]

also Rad and GMS have a lot of physical similarities - weird spindle legs, white bodies, crown thing (PK has this too), haloed by their power (light/silk)
they fight the same - waves of blades, floor spikes, screen-filling beams, lots of yelling

[terse warren]

GMS and Rad aren't related at all

also erm

Radiance doesn't even have a physical form

[stable violet]

coincidence doesnt really equal to them being the same thing tbh

[stuck berry]

basing it off of mere physical similarity is really loose

[stable violet]

and i would not say light and silk can compare tbh

[stuck berry]

both zote and the knight look very similar they must be siblings

[craggy smelt]

Widow's memory, I'm trying to find the dialogue
also Khann's memory mentions 'pale light'

[terse warren]

Widow???

What does that have to do with Radiance being Blazing Kin??

[stable violet]

my thoughts exactly

[stuck berry]

i don't see pale beings being antagonistic towards each other personally

[craggy smelt]

sorry, are you asking for references to Silk having light, or for the 'blazing kin' line?

[terse warren]

blazing kin

[craggy smelt]

k, 1 sec

[terse warren]

we have seen like 5 (billion) Pale Beings and all except 1 of them are related by family

[craggy smelt]

White Palace throne room lore tablet

No blazing kin. Only one light shall shine against the dark.
The Wyrm becomes beacon, minds expanded, to yield, to devote.
Eternity in promise and charge in progeny cursed.

[terse warren]

mhhhhhh

could just mean they're both higher beings

[craggy smelt]

Mask Maker describes Hornet's conflict with Grand Mother Silk as being typical of pale beings

Ha! I'm not surprised! It's always the way, aye? Your ancient kind, vying for dominion, and us mortal bugs squashed unseen underneath.
Which encapsulates what went down in Hallownest pretty well

[terse warren]

Not really

considering PK didn't do shit and the moths went to him willingly

[stuck berry]

i always took the vying for dominion part as a reference to higher beings in general given hornet is related to two

[dapper willow]

Hallownest is pretty exceptional to be fair

[craggy smelt]

you don't think the ruin of Hallownest could be described as PK and Rad vying for dominion, resulting in the demise of many mortal bugs?

[terse warren]

anyways this wouldn't be the first time silksong completely contradicts something we see in hk1 soooo

[terse warren]

Nope

[craggy smelt]

I do

[timber pond]

I wonder what bug radiance evolved moths from

[stuck berry]

tiktiks

[terse warren]

Pale King didn't kill Radiance willingly and Radiance was mad because she was left to die

[timber pond]

Bro says "no Balzing Kin, Only i shall be the light against the dark" practically lol

That certainly reads like its wiling

[stable violet]

nah youre on that one alone chief nearly everyone agrees that pk was a saint compared to everyone

[craggy smelt]

Seer: "She called us daughters, called us divine... she lied"

[terse warren]

PK didn't really vie with anyone

He let 5 different pre-established populations do their own thing without conquering them I don't think he really wanted that much competition

[timber pond]

No i agree with Yak. all Pale beings suck.

[craggy smelt]

vying for dominion doesn't entail one of them is evil, just that gods doing god stuff can have grave consequences for mortals
Hornet isn't evil, but she and Silk are both pale beings in conflict and that meant a bad time for Pharloom

[terse warren]

that could very well have been written once radiance's light turned into the infection, since we know the moths went willingly

[terse warren]

Vying for dominion means they're competing for it and as I already said PK very much didn't do that with groups of people that DIDN'T have a Higher Being to protect them so I don't see why he'd do it specifically for Rad

[stable violet]

pale king was no were near evil as gms if at all

[timber pond]

True but we cant Prove that because again: no time measurement.

[terse warren]

1. No they don't

2. Yak isn't saying that, Yak is saying Rad is Pale

[terse warren]

Arguably GMS is pretty tame

compared to Rad especially

[dapper willow]

Now thats just crazy

[timber pond]

Pale beings oft have a behavior of Pulling bugs into thrall under them, and often this leads to dire consequnce.

[heavy gyro]

That's the characteristic of wyrms

[timber pond]

So by that metric i agree that Radiance IS a pale being in some capacity, and that pure pale beings, often suck

[craggy smelt]

but you don't think Rad coming in with the Infection trying to take over and destroy everything, with PK trying plans to thwart her and maintain his rule, could also constitute two entities vying for dominion, even in the broadest sense like what Mask Maker is referring to?

[timber pond]

Why Does GMS and radiance do similar things via thier own methods then?

[terse warren]

PK's rule led to dire consequences because Rad was a bitch, and GMS's rule led to dire consequences because Weavers were bitches

[terse warren]

Rad wasn't vying for dominion she just wanted to kill everyone for revenge and PK was just trying to not let people die

[stable violet]

she still definitely terrible

[terse warren]

Ehhhhhhh

let's say PK on the scale is a 0

and Rad is a 10

GMS is like a 5

6 at most

[timber pond]

It seemed there were some consequnces before, and You could also argue that The pale King Coing made Gods Being forgotten inevitable. Sure he let them be, Because you could even say he assumed they would be forgoten anyway if he were to last.

[terse warren]

90% of the bugs the Haunts she does so because otherwise she'll be forced back asleep and yeah it's kinda mean to mind control people but at least in this case most of the bugs she hurts were hurting her previously

[heavy gyro]

They just can, and since not all wyrms are pale, even non pale beings bring bugs into their thrall

[craggy smelt]

I think you have an overly narrow definition of what the term 'vying for dominion' can refer to
I don't think Mask Maker would have look at that situation and said 'nah, this isn't what I was talking about at all'

[terse warren]

i mean in that case you're kinda just assuming what PK was thinking

Unn was there and they had a deal so I don't really see PK being hostile to other HBs

Like the mosskin stayed loyal despite PK being there so not much forgetting went on there

[craggy smelt]

last thing:
you find a piece of pale ore in Radiance's statue, and pale ore is said to have some connection with pale beings
proof positive right there

[terse warren]

ok even then this one mask maker dialogue isn't proof that Rad is pale

[stable violet]

halfway evil is still evil

[timber pond]

But their teritory was encroached on Via queens gardens ,slowly but surely.

[terse warren]

let a girl have some fun

smh

she just overreacted a bit cmon

[terse warren]

Nosk is a Pale Being confirmed

yknow since he guarding some Pale Ore

[stable violet]

anyways if pk was vying for dominion or whatever i dont think he wouldve negotiated with any of the greenpath inhabitants considering that you know, unn is a higher being still very much alive

sick

but alive

[craggy smelt]

also the Grubfather

[south estuary]

smallll lore trivia
i might be stupid for not realising this earlier but the spit squit and swamp squit most definitely share a common ancestor with the squit, or being direct mutations of the squit. they seem to gather in areas with high amounts of water given putrified ducts and bilewater, the only difference being that the regular squit feeds off of nutrition from moss while the other two feed directly off of water. how they ended up at the far end of pharloom will probably never be anwsered though

[craggy smelt]

oh and Seer has one!
that's like two pale ore from Radiance related stuff
one could be a coincidence but two? come on

[timber pond]

Well hes not really gaurding it. They are just sitting In those suspicios eggs

[terse warren]

you see how the statue thing doesn't really connect then

[timber pond]

Eggs that are near the abyss...

[terse warren]

The Blacksmith knows how to use pale ore therefore he MUST have some relation to Pale Beings

[terse warren]

Vessel eggs do not look like that

source we literally see one in the abyss

and it's way smaller

[timber pond]

Sure but They are very similar of arcane eggs/Whatever the black egg temple is (probably a big arcane egg)

[terse warren]

and?

the abyss isn't related to Pale Beings if not from PK

[timber pond]

Pale Beings and The Acihent civilization might have some kind of primordial connection, since The Everbloom, emitting a pale light can resist the void. Even white lady says that Thier family is connected to it, even though she might just be talking about the vessels.

[terse warren]

she's just talking about the vessels

also we don't really know enough about the everbloom to say anything

[timber pond]

Still everbloom Is a "pale Light"

As described in HK

[terse warren]

Also the everbloom being the only light that can repel the void is a retcon 🥀

[craggy smelt]

the ancients carved masks from pale ore, so they were able to find some
but that stuff does manage to get everywhere

[timber pond]

Normal light can quell it, But cannont peice it is the thing though

Like it can tickle the surface but not go under it

Also That lighthouse uses Some kind OF Lumafly

[terse warren]

"The only means we possess to resist that void with which our family is forever linked." idk man it seems to me like every other light doesn't really do shit

[terse warren]

Lumaflies shine brighter than PK?

[craggy smelt]

i wonder if a big lighthouse would have been enough to solve pharloom's problems
or if the Void is a bit harder to subdue when it's really provoked

[timber pond]

Well yeah no shit, if a pale being jumps into the void, or anyone who isnt a vessel for that matter they are gonna die if they hold simply a measly lantern

[terse warren]

Pale Beings emit extremely strong light that repels the void

lol

or at least they did

but silksong said nuh uh

[timber pond]

ITs a matter of dergee

They can probably "Resist" it for like 30 seconds if completely submerged

[terse warren]

If a bunch of lumaflies can, so can PK

[timber pond]

Thats probably How GMS had enough time to make a cocoon

But like , they will be consumed if they stay too long

[terse warren]

then the everbloom isn't the only way they have to counter the void

[timber pond]

IT can surive in it much longer

And actively repells what are essintialy Piranhas lol

[terse warren]

still believe that rather than the everbloom hornet should've just gotten a pale light emanating from her to repel the void

[terse warren]

The lumaflies do so as well

[craggy smelt]

what if all those lumaflies were made from the Everbloom...?

[timber pond]

They Merely quell the surface

If you toss one in it will probably die

[terse warren]

if you can swim in it, it's not just the surface

[timber pond]

Vessel is an exception

[terse warren]

no they are not

as long as the void isn't unified, they are treated by the void like any other being

they are attacked and killed

[timber pond]

I do not think a normal bug could survive swiming in the void if you shone light on it

[terse warren]

what was the point of the lighthouse then

[stable violet]

me when i cant get shade cloak because lighthouse light wont repel void because of a silksong retcon: :paleagony:

[timber pond]

To stop it from rising

[terse warren]

it's not like PK was the only guy to do down in the abyss

[terse warren]

TRUE

[stable violet]

seriously though of all retcons that one is so stupid

[pliant meadow]

Mfs will call anything a retcon 😭

[terse warren]

?? the lighthouse has been off for who knows how long it doesn't look like it's risen much lmao

[timber pond]

Then why is the lighthouse keeper dead? certainly dosent look like he ever left his post

[stable violet]

you get lost in it at times could say you get lost in a sea of void

[terse warren]

PK literally repels the Void with his own light and apparently no he didn't, the Everbloom is the only way to counter the Void so the lighthouse just never existed ig

[terse warren]

??

Because the Void told him to turn it off and then maybe presumedly killed him

so like

[timber pond]

HE turned it off and was killed by the void thereafter.

[timber pond]

So it rose to kill him

[terse warren]

he turned it off because the void was telling him to

[timber pond]

Like its going into the kingsmould

[pliant meadow]

I think what WL is saying is that pale light is the only thing that can repel the void. Also obvs that's not true

[terse warren]

so clearly the void didn't need the Lighthouse to "rise"

[terse warren]

WL is referring specifically to the Everbloom when she says it's the only defence they have against the Void

[timber pond]

Well, Light certainly quells it to a degree, so it helped

[terse warren]

so the Pale King's light and the lighthouse repelling the Void just aren't a thing anymore

[terse warren]

????

[pliant meadow]

Omds I'm done

[timber pond]

The tentacles Go below the surface of the Raw liqud When the Light shines on it

[terse warren]

ah it's not related to the rising

[timber pond]

The Liqud and the tentacles are Celarly Shown as 2 seprate thing sin silksong

[terse warren]

i misunderstoof what u said

[terse warren]

says a thing
sees counter-argument
gives up

[timber pond]

Its like an ocean Of Phrianas geting shoved below the surface

[terse warren]

ok but the piranhas want to kill the vessel so it's not just quelling the surface

[timber pond]

The tentacles are speceficaly what is resisted

[terse warren]

it's pacifying the whole coean

[timber pond]

Yes but the light is pushing thsoe tentacles down below where they could reach the vessel on the surface. But it likely wouldnt work the same if someone were to bring a big light under, they would just overpower it

Thats what everbloom is for

[south estuary]

also on the topic of common ancestors, its also likely for the tiktik and mawling, and the aspid and aknid to share common ancestors respectively. the tiktik and mawling seems to share the same white outer shell, made out of metallic features, sharing the ability to cling onto platforms. the aspids and aknids can really just be connected purely by their designs, but their demeanor is definitely different. the aspid shoots out infection from their large stomach, which was also probably caused to become larger due to the infection. while the aknid uses their mandibles and charges straight into pilgrims. we can assume that the aspids just grew out their mandibles due to only using them to spit out infection as their way of fighting instead of using direct force, but idkk if the infection outbreak lasted a longer time b4 the knight came to the point of the aspid directly growing out their mandibles but idkkkkk

[heavy gyro]

Yeah aknids were originally aspids

[stable violet]

wait did the void lighthouse talk just abruptly ended?

dang

[terse warren]

yeah

[stable violet]

i was about to ask if its to stop the void from rising why didnt it rise when it got turned off

[terse warren]

it doesn't stop the void from rising actually

since it was able to talk to the lighthouse worker to tell em to turn it off

[stable violet]

then ig it was just to keep that pool from going rabid but the phrasing about the everbloom shit makes it weird still

that and well void in hallownest was nowhere near as violent compared to silksong

[pliant meadow]

Well that's because it didn't have a pale being teleported directly into it

[stable violet]

thats also like only 1 example of that happening so for all we know doing that on any higher being can result in that

but that isnt my point either

the point was how it was summoned in silksong and clearly pk did mess with void before yet nothing of that violence happened

[terse warren]

The Void was agressive because it was trying to eat all the tasty soul from GMS's strings

[drifting apex]

Can silk flies exist naturally?

[pliant meadow]

We don't know

[edgy river]

I would assume not but idk

Can SILK even exist naturally (without a weaver/GMS)

[drifting apex]

Silk flies are everywhere in pharloom even in karmaleita's memory

[edgy river]

Oh yeah that karmelita memory is weird. Idk how silk flies got there

Maybe GMS herself made silkflies before the citadel? Or maybe silkflies can be natural, or maybe it was just normal flies in karmelita memory ig??

[edgy river]

I mean i think the void couldn't rise physically with the lights on it. Like, with tentacles and all that

But there were void outside the void sea as well (the siblings)

[stray fog]

I thought that it was to keep the void calm (so that the pale king could collect it and use it)

[edgy river]

If the void in the kingsmolds dissolved over time and now there is void gas/stench in the kings room, i wouldn't doubt the same happened to some of the thousands of shades

[edgy river]

That is an interesting view point. He didn't really care about leaving it on and maybe he just forgot the guy there after he ended the experiments?

[stray fog]

Idk why he left the guy there tbh

[edgy river]

I always assumed it was to make sure the lever isn't pulled out by any external force (siblings or if any intruder finds kings brand maybe)

But realistically what would that guy even be able to do to?

[stray fog]

Why would the lighthouse being active be so important

🤷

[edgy river]

I mean the stench of the void seems to be the main issue?

Void gas seems to be almost up to the city of tears during HK

[pearl thunder]

In that one shaft, yeah

[wicked fossil]

Hey does anyone know what role Ministers served for the Citadel? Hornet mentions in their Hunter's Jounral entry that they were never built for combat

For Maestros, I can assume they prolly guided the choir in their singing

[heavy gyro]

Does the mask maker also sense that great change will happen like mister mushroom?

[drifting apex]

Wait what? Where? I don't remember anything like this

[hidden river]

Here a theory: Cogflies are powered by souls, because they have the same eyecolour as fourth chorus.

[twin dragon]

This actually happens in hk aswell

fucking

3 hours late

[twin dragon]

Hornet built them herself

I mean maybe she could've put in silkflies but we don't see those in the room i think

[hidden river]

How are they powered then

[twin dragon]

silk

idfk

[dawn gyro]

I meeaannn silk is described as a manifestation of soul in a way in the materium so its possible hornet creates them using some silk, it would also explain why the cogflies sing

[hidden river]

Good Idea

[stray fog]

Are silkflies released when cogflies die?

[twin dragon]

Dont think so

[dawn gyro]

Iirc no

[stray fog]

Then they're just normal robots

Without silkflies

[twin dragon]

or they kamikaze with the cogfly fr

[stray fog]

The pale king made kingsmoulds so Hornet probably learned to make robots from there

[twin dragon]

Doesn't make sense

Hornet is shown to be naturally crafty that's it

Kingsmoulds have nothing to do with clankers

[dawn gyro]

Kingsmoulds are a sort of vessel for void in a way, an unstable one but one nonetheless

[vernal harness]

Moulds are void poured in armor and shell

[twin dragon]

They seem to imprint the king's will

to actually do their shit

[vernal harness]

Everything that was around pale king got like +200% knowledge and thats why pure vessel grew emotions too so its no shock that the moulds were good protecters

[twin dragon]

Meh

i dont think PV necessarily grew emotions because of that

because PK was an actual father figure

[vernal harness]

But him banishing himself into dreams wouldn't make sense then

[twin dragon]

And i don't rlly think that would affect the void

[vernal harness]

He banished himself so an actual pure vessel could be made

[twin dragon]

No?

That happens after PV is sealed pretty sure

or before

idfk

i forgor

[twin dragon]

And even then

he still cared about him

or partly

like the lil cutscene thing

after path of pain

[vernal harness]

I dont say he didn't.
His fathership, his presence that marked the people of hallownest and his knowledge is what made pv have emotions

[twin dragon]

He had that

intellect boost

[vernal harness]

And future sight too right?

[twin dragon]

that doesn't rlly correlate to him transporting his entire palace into the dream world

[twin dragon]

Obscure bardoon dialogue but yeah

[vernal harness]

He found out about the radiance and made a vessel to seal it but... when it was time for everything to settle down and be fine, he noticed that that hallownest no matter what will go to doom

He almost knew it was impossible to save hallownest, a kingdom that has fallen to the radiance, he wouldn't just run away for no reason, he sealed away himself in a world so that maybe a pure vessel could walk the grounds of hallownest

This is my biggest theory

But it could be wrong

Afterall its just a theory

A hollow knight theory

[twin dragon]

Eh

He's dead by that point

or he ran away fuck knows

And his foresight was malfunctioning anyways if he was thinking that whoever had the best climbing skills is the purest one

He literally sealed off the abyss he didn't expect anything to ever exit it

[midnight zinc]

We have no reason to believe his foresight played a part in the specifics of his plan, in fact the only thing we can say with some confidence that his foresight did show him was that Hallownest would fall eventually, which makes his actions even less excusable.

[twin dragon]

Foresight is just weird

you also obtain it from a lore tablet in the black egg..

[twin dragon]

If you could see or predict the future, you'd sure use it for planning

[unique tangle]

That’s worldsense

Not foresight

[twin dragon]

mb

[midnight zinc]

Except we don’t know how extensive his ability was. We don’t know if he could do it on command or if visions came to him randomly, we don’t know how many things he could see, we don’t even know for sure if he saw Hallownest’s fall, but it is possible (see giant mushroom in Fungal Core dreamnail dialogue).

[azure rivet]

pale king vs gms who wins

in a game of supersmashbros

[twin dragon]

depends on the main

[midnight zinc]

In smash? I feel like GMS would be a Bayonetta type character, so she’d stomp. In the lore, the Pale King almost certainly wins. It’d be the craziest fight we’ve ever seen in the games though.

[unique canopy]

GMS can control three characters at once, so PK would definitely get stomped on numbers alone

[azure rivet]

pale king is maining snake

also in lore honestly would the pale king curbstomp?

what combat ability does he have/

[twin dragon]

he has infinite soul

but gms has infinite silk

[midnight zinc]

He was the one who trained the pure vessel, so he can probably do everything it can, but like ten times more powerful. Mind you, the afterglow of the pale king AGES after his death is what drew the Godseekers to Hallownest, not the Radiance’s infection or any other of the gods in the area. He can generate infinite soul in his shell, that’s pretty OP.

[stray fog]

Some wyrm magic shit

[twin dragon]

I mean the knights trained PV

afaik

[stray fog]

Wait does the pale king even have hands

[midnight zinc]

What, who told you this

[twin dragon]

not sure

it just lingers in my memory

[midnight zinc]

Why would he not? His king form is that of a normal bug

[stray fog]

Gms is pale, but the pale king is pale, and a wyrm on top of that

Pk solos

[mighty swallow]

pk is stronger than gms

[twin dragon]

soul glow

[stray fog]

We never see his hands

[midnight zinc]

They knew about the vessel, but only that one. They might’ve helped train it in combat but I’m not talking about its skill with a nail, I’m talking about the insane soul spells it uses that rival the radiance in power.

[stray fog]

/j

[twin dragon]

what

how do you know it rivals the radiance

lmfao

[midnight zinc]

Have you fought the pure vessel?

[twin dragon]

why are we powerscaling

Yeah?

i radded all the bosses

in lore it's not even close

is it because it deals 2 masks..?

[midnight zinc]

I’m not talking about its ability to challenge her on a godly level, you can’t power scale things like the infection, I’m very clearly not talking about that

Where do you think it learned to do all of that? Hegemol’s fat ass was not teaching it to teleport and create magic seals from thing air

[twin dragon]

Yeah but in no way those soul spells could rival the radiance

I mean

Pale king def could

if we actually saw the extent of his powers

[frosty gate]

Sorry, are you saying PK could deal with Rad?

[stray fog]

Why didn't the pale king throw hands with the radiance

[twin dragon]

No

we're powerscaling again

[unique canopy]

I like to think PK's foresight was something like, he could see that Radiance would be defeated by one of his spawn, but didn't foresee that it would happen after the fall of his kingdom and his chosen spawn being unable to do it themself. But that's speculation, not real lore.

[frosty gate]

🚪🚶‍♂️

[twin dragon]

No real lore

since we just know he had foresight

and nothing else

[frosty gate]

I like to think his foresight is shortsighted, if that makes sense
He can't see the far future, just close events

And never about ultra revealing things

[azure rivet]

hmm soul seems more powerful ngl

[azure rivet]

ic

he's probably most powerful with his followrs

he buffs the iq of things around him right?

[stray fog]

Yes

[safe dock]

what would be the reason GMS wanted the silk from the Weavers? i thought she could produce unlimited amount
or was it just out of rage for the betrayal?

[twin dragon]

They're essentially the same or very similar

[twin dragon]

She needs to recover strength

[azure rivet]

makes sense

[frosty gate]

It seems she was weakened after she got sealed, somehow.

[twin dragon]

The tune seems to actually have weakened her

[safe dock]

i see

[twin dragon]

since the cocoon's a distress response

she does the same when she's in the abyss

[frosty gate]

We really don't know that, we know she can make a cocoon for herself, but that's about it

[stray fog]

A cocoon is also what the weaver queen built as soon as she was born

Maybe it's a natural instinct

[twin dragon]

I really doubt it that the cocoon was part of the melody

it would make sense she would make one for self preservation

And she seems to break out of it just fine

[safe dock]

well the citadel symbol is the cocoon, so probably GMS put herself in there because she was falling asleep with the song

and she also makes a cocoon to defend from the void so it looks like she does it in self defense, yeah

[frosty gate]

I don't know, I'm not too sure about it.
What I'm kinda sure tho, the reason why she probably weakened was because they were harvesting her

She is in a loom after all

[twin dragon]

If anything they harvested the silk from the cocoon itself

It could be part of her

[safe dock]

what is confusing for me is that both hornet and maskmaker say she's asleep, but she's also controlling pharloom with her silk

[twin dragon]

as we see in the abyss

[twin dragon]

That's the haunting for you

[safe dock]

hmmm true

[frosty gate]

It seems to be the case then

[twin dragon]

she's basically projecting her will with strings

[twin dragon]

Or maybe not

since it basically fucking

explodes

when she emerges

[safe dock]

yeah but she's the one controlling the silk to make the haunting, no?

[twin dragon]

Yeah

[frosty gate]

Maybe it just goes back to being her silk? Idk

[mighty parcel]

Why do bugs make the pilgrimage to the citadel? Like, what do they hope to accomplish?

[twin dragon]

I don't think thats the case

[stray fog]

In her sleep, she can't physically do much, but she can do the haunting stuff

[twin dragon]

she seems weakened enough

[stray fog]

Golden city

[twin dragon]

Make bugs sing

[mighty parcel]

From the pilgrims' perspective

[twin dragon]

or well

become holy

or sm shit

propaganda

[safe dock]

weavers promised them good things and stuff

[stray fog]

They believe its the most important thing in their life

[frosty gate]

Doesn't it seem like the Strings come from inside of the cocoon?

[mighty parcel]

thanks

[stray fog]

Because religion

[twin dragon]

Not rlly to me

Is that like

the cradle

but with 90% of it gone

[frosty gate]

Which dialogue you mean with MM?

[frosty gate]

Yeah, the Cradle is a Vertical map

So far perspective screenshots look like that

Since there's nothing to the side

[twin dragon]

I mean actually

[safe dock]

i see
is there a reason of why the haunting didn't start before the weavers left? like, it was her silk inside a lot of them

[twin dragon]

the cocoon might be her "hair"

after the exits it

[frosty gate]

She was fully asleep

[twin dragon]

And its all combed up in the abyss

[safe dock]

"A system, or a web they'd likely call it, a way to keep their mother sealed in slumber, and themselves free to lavish in their false rule."

[frosty gate]

I mean, that's kinda in past tense, it already happened

[twin dragon]

We kinda see this

Right after it breaks

big silk dregs falling

[safe dock]

yeah but there's also hunter's journal entry that says "Heart of the Haunting, long lulled to slumber and desperate to wake."
the "desperate to wake" is in the present, so she's still asleep

[frosty gate]

Half asleep, at the very least

[twin dragon]

she's asleep still

[frosty gate]

But not fully is what I mean

[twin dragon]

Maybe

I mean yeah she's waking up

enough for her to manifest her desires into the haunting

[frosty gate]

Exactly, but when the Weavers were there, she was fully asleep

[twin dragon]

No shit

[safe dock]

i see
she was waking up just because everyone eventually wakes up or did something went wrong with the citadel's plan?

[frosty gate]

Or so I want to believe because otherwise nothing makes sense

[twin dragon]

She was asleep during the weavers rule yes

and for a while during conductor's aswell

[frosty gate]

The Conductors did something stupid, that's all we know

[twin dragon]

They kinda just

made up castes

[safe dock]

where is it stated?

[frosty gate]

It probably had to do with the Cogwork Core

[twin dragon]

and like some of them sang while some of them were working their asses off or chilling in the big ass spa that is the high halls

[twin dragon]

They kinda changed the citadel's purpose

The cogwork core was made to automatize the melody pretty sure

but was never finished

[safe dock]

i thought cogwork was also planned by the weavers since it is part of the threefold melody

[twin dragon]

as the architects had worse capacities than their predecessor

[twin dragon]

Im rlly not sure about this

[frosty gate]

I can't remember

[twin dragon]

They basically lived lavishly

[frosty gate]

Yeah I mean, I guess its kinda enviromental storytelling, they grew negligent after the core was "Finished"

[unique canopy]

If not the entire melody then at least the Architects', because the Architects themselves had a harder time remembering things with every subsequent iteration

Our melody? I r-r-recall! Yes! There was melody, once, but its sound... that I possess no longer...
T-t-t-too long I have worked. From my mind-vault, the imprint has f-f-faded. With many things it is like this... remembrance, dimmed...
But you m-m-may hear it, still. At the height of our core, there is means-s-s-system, near complete... Constructs old-built to sound our song. They need only be set to functional form.

[twin dragon]

It could've been only the architect's melody

What about the cogwork clappers doe

[safe dock]

i feel like Architect's Melody and the song that kept GMS asleep are different things, so this wouldn't be talking abt the lullaby

[frosty gate]

Ballador says:
"The mantle of rule, claimed greedily from Pharloom's fading first children, those bitter Weavers... it was yoke, not crown."
So the Weavers left the to their own devices and the Conductors fucked it up by playing kings

[twin dragon]

They are part of it

else they have no reason to exist

[safe dock]

we don't see this bells, thats true

[frosty gate]

I've said that the TFM is just to ascend and not the song that keeps her sleeping

[tepid mountain]

Maybe different parts of the Core play different parts of the whole melody? The top handles Architect, the “depths” handle another.

[twin dragon]

Could be

[twin dragon]

They could be part of the lullaby

they only let you in once you know TFM for a reason

[safe dock]

is it a possibility that the conductors betrayed the weavers?
i mean, it doesn't seem like ballador liked them with this line

[twin dragon]

The high caste didn't after they realized what they've built the citadel for

[safe dock]

to block the pathway to GMS?

[safe dock]

yeah

that's what im thinking

[safe dock]

i dont think they would let any pilgrim ascend since it seems anyone could just go up there and wake her up like hornet did

and pilgrims sang the lullaby

[heavy gyro]

It seems she woke up because of hornet specifically

[tepid mountain]

Could each pilgrim sing only part of it? And only those who know all parts could ascend?

[safe dock]

if the TFM was part of the lullaby, i think anyone who knew the lullaby could ascend, right?

[safe dock]

that's a possibility as well

i just find it strange that the mechanism to play the architects melody was unfinished

[safe dock]

i think it was because she challenged her

[twin dragon]

I mean TFM is split among the high caste

so if anyone would ascend there it would be someone of importance

[frosty gate]

Nah, the Weavers willingly left them alone

[twin dragon]

I think TFM is part of the lullaby

[heavy gyro]

Well if it was that easy to wake her up then she could've just sent someone to wake her, so it's likely that hornet has to do something with it

[safe dock]

members of the choir ascendet at least. im just now realizing this

[frosty gate]

I don't really think it's part of the Lullaby, that would defeat the purpose of it all

[twin dragon]

how so

[frosty gate]

Those are the ones GMS sent after Weavers, so it doesn't prove much

[safe dock]

hmmm

[safe dock]

but how did they get up there?

[frosty gate]

Why would you put your secret password that will bring you up to the Citadel's greatest secret in a lullaby that everyone would listen because they need to sing

[tepid mountain]

Possibly only a weaver is skilled enough to play all three parts of the melody, so the weavers put that system in place to ensure that only a weaver could ascend and see GMS.

[twin dragon]

The lullaby could be split up

[frosty gate]

Through the same means probably or some hidden ventrica we can't see

[twin dragon]

Why would they make a melody just to give some pilgrims access

[frosty gate]

3d world and all that

[heavy gyro]

Some citadel bugs must have ascended though to harvest silk

[tepid mountain]

Yeah that’s true.

[twin dragon]

It could've been mechanical

[frosty gate]

It was probably mechanical, with help of the Weavers maybe

[tepid mountain]

Were the Weavers harvesting GMS silk though?

[safe dock]

my problem with that is that, like you said, this was the citadels great secret
it wouldn't make much sense to exist a method of going up there despite the TFM

[twin dragon]

Maybe

We don't know

pretty sure

[safe dock]

i think they didn't need to do that, they could generate silk from their shells, no?

but after they left, the bugs needed more because weavers weren't there to provide it

[twin dragon]

It wasn't a secret

[unique canopy]

You mean like the Ventrica that's literally right next to the Cradle?

[twin dragon]

it's literally the citadel's sigil

TFM could be a passkey for authorization to go there for maintenance or some shit

[frosty gate]

Absolutely no one except 3 people in the entire city know of GMS

[safe dock]

yeah but it isn't clear that this sigil is GMS asleep
at least i just found this out when i got there

[frosty gate]

Probably but that doesn't explain how they got those cages inside ventricas

[safe dock]

i thought the whole purpose of the citadel was keeping GMS in slumber and no one except conductors and pontiff knew what the song was for

[twin dragon]

of gms

they didn't really know there was a god inside

they just prayed

[safe dock]

but they prayed for the weavers

[frosty gate]

No one knows that there was something up there

[twin dragon]

Nobody initally knew

[twin dragon]

They knew the cocoon was

[frosty gate]

Ok, I'm gonna start being pedantic, where is this stated?

[twin dragon]

But they didn't know what exactly it was

[twin dragon]

It's literally their sigil

Common sense

[safe dock]

but you can't figure out what the sigil is just by looking at it

[frosty gate]

That proves nothing, where is it stated that they knew there was a Cocoon with a Loom there

Specifically in the Cradle

Behind a Sacred Melody

Kept by the 3 most powerful people in the Citadel

Where no one but the Weavers go

[twin dragon]

There would be people going up there to collect silk

unless the loom is automatic

[safe dock]

and i think the Vaultkeepers Melody was known by no one except pontiff so it can't be part of the lulaby as well

Cardinius states that if im not mistaken

[frosty gate]

Where is this stated, we don't see anything that signals that people were up there harvesting silk

[neat scroll]

Sup lore masters. What lore will we discuss today

[twin dragon]

The cages with the envoys in the cradle

though that could be haunted minions

[safe dock]

the only thing that keeps me confused is the memory of the choral members being up there

like how GMS managed to get them up there?

[frosty gate]

Cages specifically sent by GMS during the Haunting, when everyone was dead or dying

[unique canopy]

Not necessarily a cocoon specifically, but the TFM display says that the Citadel's divine heart is up in the Cradle. And the Citadel experimented on considerable amounts of silk in Whiteward. Not silk from bugs, because they also experimented on infusing silk into bugs first, before harvesting that silk in later generations, so the initial batch of silk would've needed to come from somewhere.

[safe dock]

what is the TFM and if ppl from the citadel knew about the GMS's cocoon existance

[twin dragon]

TFM would have no reason to exist if that wasn't the case

or if it wasn't part of the lullaby

the architects would have zero reason to make it automatic

[neat scroll]

Well the snail shaman def knew

[twin dragon]

I rlly doubt that tfm was around when weavers were

[safe dock]

yeah but before the haunting

[neat scroll]

Hmm

[tepid mountain]

How would snail shaman know even during the haunting?

[safe dock]

true

[frosty gate]

That's not something we can know honestly, the timeline is messy

[twin dragon]

all bugs were equal

as pious isamor claims

so the high caste wouldn't have existed

[unique canopy]

Some were more equal than others

[twin dragon]

we dont know that

i doubt the weavers would allow that anyways

plus tfm statues are all gilded n shit

[frosty gate]

But that somewhere was not accesible by common bugs plus its currently debated if the Whiteward Silk experiments were led by a Weaver or the Conductors

[twin dragon]

Def conductors

[frosty gate]

Not this shit again, i'm not doing this isamor conversationg twice

[twin dragon]

They're the ones arming people

[safe dock]

i think it was created by them simply because of the fact Pontiff heard it and didn't tell anybody

[twin dragon]

Thats lowkey what is stated

[twin dragon]

It could've been the case

[frosty gate]

It's propaganda

[safe dock]

i have no idea, same with maskmaker

[unique canopy]

I don't think it needs to be accessible by common bugs, just the ones that were trusted enough by the three leaders.

[safe dock]

but i guess they just figured it out

[twin dragon]

Made by the weavers

all of it was controlled by the weavers at that point

[frosty gate]

I'm not even sure those guys were up there, maybe the Conductors but not the other, idk

[twin dragon]

there's nothing telling us to believe otherwise

[safe dock]

but no one knew the Vaultkeepers melody

[frosty gate]

Im honestly not sure, I'm kinda inclined to think it was Weavers

[safe dock]

without it, you can't ascend

[twin dragon]

They seem to be the ones training and arming bugs with silk

aswell as extending their life

Like during the weavers rule they wanted the pilgrims to sing

and sing only i think

[unique canopy]

That just emphasizes the point. Of course the Weavers would want propaganda that emphasizes common bugs are all equal under the Weavers. They rebelled against GMS, so they wouldn't have wanted common bugs to rebel against them. But once they entrusted the Citadel to the common bugs, they wouldn't have cared how the bugs organized themselves as long as they didn't mess with the system that kept GMS asleep.

[twin dragon]

Exactly

[unique canopy]

But when they did entrusted the Citadel to the common bugs, they would've needed leaders who would be able to govern the common bugs to ensure the common bugs didn't mess around, hence the Conductors.

[twin dragon]

im arguing that all bugs, were indeed equal during the weaver rule

they even promoted the "excess is sin" narrative

[twin dragon]

we don't have much info on that

the bugs could've organized themselves into what they are rn

or picked a few to become leaders

[unique canopy]

If the Weavers fled without doing anything maybe, but they specifically entrusted the Citadel to the common bugs, and it was the Conductors who eagerly took the role of leaders. If they cared enough to set up the common bugs to maintain the system, it would be nonsensical for them to just leave everything in anarchy, because that would risk the bugs messing things up and setting GMS free (which eventually happened anyway).

[twin dragon]

Yeah

"the common bug"

kinda implies still that they were just that

[twin dragon]

They were already organized, as vaultkeepers seemed to exist

and i don't think architects are part of the hierarchy

[unique canopy]

Part enough that they held a third of the melody and were entrusted with keeping everything running

[frosty gate]

"Sisters, spiders, the burden is passed. These simple bugs shall bear it full. Never to cease. Never to silence."
"Only to a first child, must a Vaultkeeper defer."
"Then on your r-r-request, Bug-Red, as directive demands, for Pharloom's first children, a-a-a-and our kingdom-eternal, I shall serve. I shall c-c-craft."

My dude

[twin dragon]

Im talking abt leadership only btw

[frosty gate]

Those are the leaders

[twin dragon]

The melody can perfectly be something that came after

[frosty gate]

Explicitly saying that they only respond to Weavers

[unique canopy]

If you acknowledge they already had a hierarchy, then the propaganda was basically for new pilgrims at the bottom of the totem pole, not established choristers, because the established Citadel leadership upper caste already existed.

[twin dragon]

Not necessarily

[safe dock]

it can't because of pontiff

[twin dragon]

they could be servants with a specific purpose

[twin dragon]

so?

[safe dock]

who gave him the melody? only the ones who knew the truth about the citadel

and he was the only one who knew Vaultkeepers Melody

it must've been a weaver who gave him the cilynder

[twin dragon]

The melody didn't necessarily reveal what the citadel's purpose is

He isolated himself after he realized what was going on

[safe dock]

"Something within the melody, or the words"

[twin dragon]

actually nvm i take that back

[safe dock]

lol

[twin dragon]

So, if the melody did indeed actually reveal the truth

[safe dock]

but yeah
all this things make me confused on what is the purpose of the TFM

[twin dragon]

does it mean it could be part of the lullaby

[safe dock]

i dont think so because if it was, more people would know the Vaultkeepers Melody

because they had to sing it, at least the other keepers

and most bugs didn't know the truth

(that it was a cage)

[frosty gate]

What do you mean not necesarilly???
First Dialogue is from a Rune Harp found on Ballador.
Second is Cardinius saying that he only obeys to Weavers
Third is Twelfth Arch saying that, BY DIRECTIVE, she must obey Weavers

Those 3 are the factions of the Citadel and ARE the leaders

[tepid mountain]

Maybe Pontiff only started keeping the melody to himself after he discovered the secret?

But before then, more people knew it.

[twin dragon]

Obeying the leaders of the citadel doesn't mean they have to be leaders themselves my guy

[tepid mountain]

Also, why would the weavers hide the citadel’s secret in a melody that wasn’t part of the lullaby?

[twin dragon]

most pilgrims did

[twin dragon]

and they all died out

as cardinius states he hid a long time ago iirc?

someone fact check this

[tepid mountain]

Surely Pontiff discovered the secret because the melody was part of the lullaby spell, yeah?

[frosty gate]

Nothing says that, we only know he has it hidden

[safe dock]

What would make them not share it with others?
Cause Vaultkeeper Cardinius didn't know the Melody, and I think he's as old as Pontiff

[twin dragon]

Plus the architects mechanized theirs

and for what?

if it isnt part of the lullaby

[frosty gate]

✋ 🤚

[safe dock]

that's the question
main theory is to only allow who knew the 3 parts of it to ascend and collect silk from GMS (or take care of the cradle)

[tepid mountain]

Is he?

[trail wagon]

He's probably dead in HK 😭

[twin dragon]

For all we know they were in service to the weavers

[frosty gate]

Not as old, but he knw the Pontiff

[trail wagon]

By the time tK gets to the BG

[frosty gate]

Yes and each led their faction

Well, not the Architects really, they're special

[safe dock]

well he talked to him while he was alive

[frosty gate]

But Pontiff was leader of the Vaultkeepers and Conductors leaders of the Choir

[tepid mountain]

But maybe he only knew them after they discovered the secret and started hoarding the melody.

[frosty gate]

And we know Weavers left them the Burden so they could live quietly

[twin dragon]

Doesn't mean they had much authority over the other bugs aside from doing their purpose

which would be guidance

[unreal estuary]

The Potiff was stated to have hidden the melody away. Before the reason he didn't share it with others because it was supposed to be a part of the pilgrimage, but the Pontiff discovered 'something within the words' as Cardinius says so he hid the melody in his secret room

[twin dragon]

but its not like they enjoyed the lavishness after the weavers fled

[frosty gate]

Guidance?

[twin dragon]

You could see the pontiff as the one making sure everything is organized as it should be

And the conductors same thing for the choir

[frosty gate]

So they were Leaders of the bugs of the Citadel each in their proper faction

Left by the Weavers

[twin dragon]

They could've just gotten ordered by the weavers to lead after their departure

but not before

that's what i think

[frosty gate]

Weavers did not lead the Choir nor did they do Vault keeping work. They set these systems and put leaders there so that they wouldn't have to do that while they ruled

[twin dragon]

No shit?

im not arguing against that lmao

Im saying that nobody lived in lavishness during the weaver rule, and didn't have nearly as much authority as they did after they took the ruler mantle

[distant vessel]

I like the silksong lore

But I really cant figure out gms lore

[twin dragon]

comes to pharloom

challenges a few kingdoms i think

makes weavers

gets sealed off

[distant vessel]

Ik