sk-lore

[sinful nimbus]

Just delete yo save file

[silk dirge]

yeah but the game can automatically do that for you

[edgy river]

Omg a game with permadeath as default would be insane

[sinful nimbus]

But its not really to the detriment of the game yeah

[fathom hill]

But also steel doesnt seem to be a priority rn, more like a nugget of extra stuff

[silk dirge]

tc roguelike???

[sinful nimbus]

It just represents the death of my hopes and dreams its okay

[edgy nebula]

goooooooooooorrbbbuh

[sinful nimbus]

Y'know the submarine system would be a good way to bring back dungeons

[exotic pumice]

i dont think steel soul is like, supposed to have that big of an impact. to me it always seemed like "whoever has a steel soul, aka can take the challenge, can attempt this mode" and the steel npcs always seem very "heartless", like they do not have any emotions, they just observe things. i think this is what steel soul is supposed to imply

i doubt they would lock dlcs or smth like that to steel soul

[silk dirge]

the submarine is cool but i still want my fayforn mount

[exotic pumice]

give me the submarine

[edgy river]

Actually no it is much better to have a dedicated mode for that. For multiple reasons

[fathom hill]

it just seem like them expanding a bit on that to get the nerds excited

defo not for the common player

[silk dirge]

i want to be able to fight fayforn and tame it as a travel system

itd be so fucking cool

[sinful nimbus]

Why didn't Hornet just fly the snare setter to the cradle

[exotic pumice]

yep, if it would be for the common player, we would see the city of steel in a sequel lol

[sinful nimbus]

Such as

[fathom hill]

or boss rush

as if those things were to happen

[spark valve]

[fathom hill]

steel boat in bay, believe

[spark valve]

Steel place just being a godhome surrogate would be incredibly lame

[foggy fractal]

right, the backers received their artworks
so you're telling me we have unreleased artwork of those elusive bosses out there, god do I hope to see them one day

[edgy nebula]

i do feel like tc locking two bosses behind steel soul would be a little lame

[trail wagon]

Coral Gorge between Karak and Slab/ Mount Fay, believe and pray

[spark valve]

Having teasers be steel soul exclusive doesn’t mean the thing itself has to be if they add it later

[fathom hill]

depends on how they do it

but the travelling guys with motives

[timber pond]

I mean the assumed city itself is mentioned in Non Steel Soul content

[fathom hill]

sounds a bit like either grimmtroupe or godhome

but who is to say

[fathom hill]

yah

Like it exists in both modes

[timber pond]

Its emesaries that travel

Steel city coild just be a hunkered down place

[silk dirge]

the thing im curious about is if tc wasnt joking around in the article and they actually have 8 more years of dlc content they want to cook

[fathom hill]

Im not sure

[foggy fractal]

they said that ? can't remember the interview that well

[timber pond]

Or that joke in 2017 where they said "hollow knight 2 will be ina bout 10 years" silksong was just a spinoff

[silk dirge]

they said they couldve developed silksong for 15 years

[fathom hill]

in the interview they just said theres years of content (as in theyll be working in it for years since release? dont remember), and that those are ambitious or something

[foggy fractal]

i'm so fucking scared
i'm gonna be out of college and they're still gonna be working on it

[fathom hill]

Theyll be working on it for a while thats for sure

[timber pond]

Its moreso that, they had these ideas and could have kept adding onto it as long as they wanted by decided that the game is complete enough as is

[fathom hill]

im not sure if most of us will even be here by that point lol

[edgy river]

1. You don't have to keep track of whatever counts as a death, considering dream sections don't kill you but sometimes do (white palace). Having this as official makes everyone's challenge the same instead of "deathless" being arbitrary

2. Incentivizes people to give it a try (specially since it has acchievements) and most people wouldn't think of doing that in the first place (I wouldn't have done if it wasn't a intended mode)

3. It adapta stuff that uses the death mechanic. Selling out eggs in HK, the purses effect in SS, etc. If it wasn't official these items would be useless in deathless and it's annoying finding hidden items that serve no purpose when exploring

[timber pond]

The 15 years part was a little bit of a joke but not completely lol

Like "if i don't stop drawing this is going to take us 15 years!" Sort of deal

[spark valve]

If anything it makes deathless more arbitrary

[foggy fractal]

I mean, I've been in this server since 7 years ago, what's another 7 years amiright

[timber pond]

So suffice to say they just have alot of elements they want expanded and it certainly shows

[edgy river]

It's not. Death is whatever the game defines is a death

[sinful nimbus]

yeah why doesn't your HP reaching 0 always kill you 🥴

[silk dirge]

bros gonna remember this channel like its fucking red memory

[spark valve]

Except when the game decides a death doesn’t count

[foggy fractal]

which members are gonna be the 3 queens

[silk dirge]

good question

[fathom hill]

Idk, deathless or permadeath by name alone already throws out a lotta people

[sinful nimbus]

Why are we incentivizing players to do deathless its not like that adds much to the game

[fathom hill]

we have to remember that for some this very well may be their first platformer

locking big content behind that is just like

not according to tc philosophy to have the difficulty be accessible me thinks

it locks you out

[spark valve]

Steel soul doesn’t really have new content anyways, even in silksong it’s just one boss that reuses the same void attacks everything gets in act 3

[fathom hill]

yah

most of it is npcs with very specific lore

[sinful nimbus]

But this time it has the barely telegraphed bulldrome charge attack

[fathom hill]

its for the nerds, not for the game as a whole me thinks

[edgy river]

That's subjective and i personally was thrown off by it until I tried the first time and noticed it actually enhances the game

It tests your knowledge of the games items and planning on how to deal with bosses. Maximizing upgrades before bosses to have the best chance, etc

It's gameplay-wise very different from your first run if you want to have the best chance, since you'll spend most of your time strategizing

[fathom hill]

Not for understanding the story even since they dont do much, just pure lore

[sinful nimbus]

Its literally just overly playing safe

Also its incredibly obvious that what adds to the game is subjective

[spark valve]

It’s not that interesting it just incentivizes you to play like a coward

[sinful nimbus]

"I don't like chocolate ice cream"
"That's subjective" thanks?

[edgy river]

There is no big content locked on it. It's like a few pieces of dialogue on 2 exclusive characters

[fathom hill]

Im saying in the hypothetical that they would put

more special content for steel soul only

Big special content, like steel dlc

[edgy river]

Oh no I don't think they should. Steel soul should never lock out content

[fathom hill]

Ig for me it wouldnt make sense, doesnt matter how much tc may want you to play steel soul

[edgy river]

I agree

[fathom hill]

and i dont think that tc really wants you to play steel soul

[edgy river]

I'm just saying they shouldn't remove it as an official mode

[edgy river]

If they didn't they wouldn't have added it to the base HK game and it wouldn't be an acchievement

[fathom hill]

Ah okok

[fathom hill]

The reason why they added it to hk was im sure for

fan demand, like people asked for such a thing

[edgy river]

The discussion began because people were saying they shouldn't put steel soul as oficial because "if people will do deathless they already can"

[fathom hill]

That philosophy could have changed, but tc hasnt shown anything that resembles it

[edgy river]

Wasnt it there from the start? TC doesn't do much fan demand as well

[fathom hill]

again, the reward for doing steel soul is a boss and some new specific lore

[sinful nimbus]

Well yes not everything needs to be an achievement especially if it doesn't really add much to the experience

[fathom hill]

Back when they actually had a kickstarter

Im sure theres a comment on it somewhere, like when they did amas

[edgy river]

They add or change stuff they have a vision for. People complained about double dmg and they left it mostly untouched, I don't think steel soul is there for fan demand

[fathom hill]

I mean

they did nerf bosses, they did the

binder maggot thing

The enviromental hazards dont do two mask anymore

Saying they are totally sealed to demand is not true

[edgy river]

Acchievements are supposed to be extra challenges by their own name. Locking achievements out on hard content is fine and it's not like it's "kill 999999 enemies"

It's actually challenging and not just annoying

[fathom hill]

They are not to yield easily, sure

[sinful nimbus]

"Never die" is artificial difficulty

[fathom hill]

For example, the game is difficult, they have advice to explore more, get items and come back later stronger

That is already a philosophy that drives the game to be more accessible, rather than just "try again until you make it"

[sinful nimbus]

I'd rather dev resources were spent on literally anything else instead of this lazy 'difficult' mode

[edgy river]

That's why I said "mostly", they follow criticism that they find reasonable and agreed with

[spark valve]

The silk soul they advertised

[fathom hill]

Anyways back to steel soul

[sinful nimbus]

Yeah it wouldn't be nearly as upsetting if they didn't advertise something more interesting only to walk it back to what they admitted to not shake things up a whole lot

[unique canopy]

I highly doubt many resources were spent adding code that said "if die, delete save"

[foggy fractal]

sorry I ate all the silk so they had to use steel again

[edgy river]

Steel soul probably took not even a day of work. Maybe the sprites and dialogue for the exclusive chars are where most of the time goes into

[fathom hill]

As i said, who knows if tc philosophy on steel soul changed at all but we dont know that

but steel soul for tc doesnt seem high priority rn

[cedar skiff]

the way steel soul isnt even challenging for the average achievement hunter anyway because anyone sensible would just save quit near death

[spark valve]

It just doesn’t matter

[fathom hill]

its a treat for the fans that are really into the game and want a challenge or whatever, not an "intended" mode by any means

[edgy river]

Which is good it shouldn't be!

Steel soul is a nice hard challenge for those who want it that is officially supported because it is easy to do so

Shouldn't be more than that, but there's no reason for it not to be there

[cedar skiff]

i mean its just content from hk besides additional story

[sinful nimbus]

They could've done a million better things in less than a day of work presumably

[fathom hill]

thats why i think tc wouldnt really care if you play or not steel soul, since if you are a common player you wont miss much

[sinful nimbus]

Like fixing their shellshard economy

[fathom hill]

Yah yah

[spark valve]

TRUE

[cedar skiff]

shellshards shouldnt have limits problem solved

[sinful nimbus]

That doesn't solve the issue of needing to grind if you get stuck on a boss

[edgy river]

If they wanted to do that they could have they didn't have a launch day for 7 years

I think TC just want us to suffer from poverty or smth

[spark valve]

It would be as easy as just not costing shards to repair after dying

[cedar skiff]

eh for me on first playthroughs the issue was the limit

[edgy river]

The rosaries as well Pharloom is BROKE

[sinful nimbus]

and removing any shellshards you gathered before death

[fathom hill]

use your silk skills

[silk dirge]

i mean they already do it for multiple very significant bosses

[fathom hill]

these people i swear

[silk dirge]

it wouldnt be a stretch to add at all

[sinful nimbus]

??

[spark valve]

Yeah just do it for everything

[fathom hill]

why are you relying on tools for combat

didnt ur mum teach you to be responsible

sorry im being mean

[sinful nimbus]

"Why are you engaging with the mechanics of the game"

[spark valve]

Why are you using a combat mechanic for combat?

[sinful nimbus]

They axed the 3 spell system for this I'd prefer for it to be good

[fathom hill]

no, why are you engaging with only one of the mechanics of the game

[sinful nimbus]

I didn't say I never used spells you made that up

[spark valve]

Why are you assuming that’s what she’s doing

[fathom hill]

I always assume

[edgy river]

As much as I don't like the shell system, I think they specifically didn't want that

Resetting the state after death is kind of the default strategy so if they didn't do that it's def intentional

[spark valve]

Intent can be bad

[edgy river]

Its bad

I hate it

[cedar skiff]

maybe they need to balance the expense a little bit more because some of these tools do so little that the refill if you die feels worse

[edgy river]

I just don't think it was lack of time or anything like that

[fathom hill]

I dont understand the shard problem

[edgy river]

There are so many tools you can try out and you won't because if u die you can't use anything

[unique canopy]

They just need to make the magnet work on shards and change the physics so they don't bounce into spike pits. It's not shard costs that's the problem, it's how pointless it is to actually kill enemies or find caches unless they're actual shard bundle items you can pick up.

[cedar skiff]

early game id rather save up my shards until i get actually good tools but the damn limit

[spark valve]

You can buy shard bundles infinitely

[edgy river]

Trying new strategies against bosses is de-incentivized which is not good

[spark valve]

This is what makes the limit good

[cedar skiff]

also shards are the most unrewarding thing for exploration and theres so many of them

and again if you’re full its like

ok so i just explored for nothing

[fathom hill]

You already have to grind a bit for rosaries to buy other stuff

[cedar skiff]

thanks man

[spark valve]

That is true the reliance on shards as rewards sucks ass

[fathom hill]

maybe the rosaries problem still hasnt been fixed totally?

i do miss a lot money drop after gauntlets

[edgy river]

The limit would be fine but I'd like to see a world where shells maybe are not even currency. Just "You have X shells and refills on bench"

Like Dark Souls bottles and stuff like that

[fathom hill]

Idk, the system isnt perfetc but its not terrible

[foggy fractal]

btw how many geo chests were in the first game and how many are in silksong ? I only remember getting like one rosary chest

[sinful nimbus]

I think the currency is fine to incentivize actually engaging with enemies

[fathom hill]

I never had problem with the tools nor the people ive seen play

[edgy river]

Then you'd be incentivise to use your tools instead of hoarding and then getting stuck in a boss and using it all up and then having to grind more

[fathom hill]

tools are the most atomic option me thinks, to use sparingly

[spark valve]

Neither is that common tbf

Having to use a core combat mechanic sparingly is lame

[unique canopy]

Oh yeah, make gauntlet enemies drop their normal rosaries and shards, they can do that too. Maybe code it so each individual enemy only drops them once for when you die mid-gauntlet if they're concerned about death farming.

[sinful nimbus]

Rosary economy is made infinitely worse by the godawful death run mechanic

[cedar skiff]

idk i dont find the tools super fun to use anyway. theres some fights where it really feels like they want you to use them but hornets base kit is so much fun on its own

[unique canopy]

That's far less of a problem than it was in HK so it's a non-issue

[timber pond]

If enemies dropped rosaries in arenas pepole would just accumulate more the more they die. Shards is fine though

[spark valve]

At least the cocoon silk restoration is fun but they could’ve just had your rosaries remain when you die

[cedar skiff]

rosary economy is ok because of the option to make the strings

[fathom hill]

specially at the start, with low rosarie count to buy bundles and low tool dmg

[timber pond]

Also guys we now sound like #sk-discussion

[foggy fractal]

me when I have to grind a silksillion rosaries just to use my tools, very awesome gameplay !

[sinful nimbus]

Not really

[cedar skiff]

or not make but like

[unique canopy]

Literally mentioned that in the second sentence of the message you replied to.

[fathom hill]

yah this aint lore

[sinful nimbus]

Stringing rosaries adds nothing to the game it just removes some of your money for no reason

[cedar skiff]

you get strings from exploration a lot

not using those saved my ass often

[fathom hill]

just game ranting

[sinful nimbus]

Sorry lets move to lore ranting

[edgy river]

I logged 3 times today and haven't seen people really discussing lore 0 times lol

[fathom hill]

the best type of ranting

even more unemployed core

[edgy river]

GMS bad or smth

[timber pond]

Cosing only one drop of rosaries even after death is weird. IDK how hard that is.

[cedar skiff]

stringing them yourself yeah but getting them as rewards

you just keep them strung until you actually need them

[trail wagon]

Where is the light coming from?

[sinful nimbus]

Which wouldn't be necessary if they removed the annoying corpse run mechanic

[spark valve]

Uuuuh hornet is evil seth is incoherent

[trail wagon]

And here

[fathom hill]

silkflies

[fathom hill]

silkflies

[trail wagon]

judging by the angle, it comes from the window

[sinful nimbus]

HK's universe is filled with unexplained ambient light just don't question it

[fathom hill]

yah

[silk dirge]

random light source hb

[sinful nimbus]

Weakspots in the veil between the dream realm or something stupid

[fathom hill]

where does the shellwood light come from

[trail wagon]

Whaat? We were discussing weavenests when you were here literally

[cedar skiff]

the humble silk eater

[trail wagon]

alrightly

[sinful nimbus]

Silkeaters are a limited resource

[spark valve]

The need for the game to not be a black screen all the time

[cedar skiff]

id get the complaining about the mechanic if there didnt exist several ways around it in the game

[trail wagon]

What did you say everybody had to warn be about you?

[fathom hill]

lore

[cedar skiff]

the only thing that sucks is your spool being tied to it

[sinful nimbus]

They're bandaid "fixes"

[fathom hill]

we in the lore channel

lore and gameplay may intersect sometimes though

[trail wagon]

you're kinda chill

[sinful nimbus]

I criticize the game a lot

[fathom hill]

I love when that happens

[cedar skiff]

tbh this screenshot puts into perspective how massive that fucking citadel is damn

[trail wagon]

ohhh okay

[fathom hill]

the me thing, not the star thing

[edgy river]

True, 1 time

[fathom hill]

bad timing

[foggy fractal]

nah she's not just kinda chill, she's ice cold ! 🥶 I'm freezing in this channel

[trail wagon]

nah

[sinful nimbus]

Smallest SS room

[edgy river]

The citadel is kings full of light and reflective surfaces

[sinful nimbus]

Everything feels so grand

[trail wagon]

it was a long ass heated discution what are you talking bout

[edgy river]

Probably a different room

[trail wagon]

yeaaah

[fathom hill]

actually yeah what are those things in the bg?

[cedar skiff]

i meant like in game, its hard to really pick up on the grandeur with the limited view you have at all times so the panorama screenshots make it all a little crazier

[edgy river]

Wait do y'all consider the slab part of the citadel?

[sinful nimbus]

The scales?

[trail wagon]

this is probably the biggest room in the entire game

[fathom hill]

what is concealed in the z axis we dont know

[sinful nimbus]

They're representative of judgement I think

[trail wagon]

They look like windows

[fathom hill]

just shapes and light?

[trail wagon]

oh yeah, agreee

[spark valve]

The biggest room in the game is bonebottom’s

[sinful nimbus]

Don't forget Pharloom Bay's

[spark valve]

In the game star

Bay is fake

[foggy fractal]

no !

it has to be real !

it has to !

[trail wagon]

depends on what you mean

if you're talking vertically or horizontally

[fathom hill]

meters square i pressume

[sinful nimbus]

these buildings?

[fathom hill]

oh could be

[sinful nimbus]

Like its a window you can see the outside through

[trail wagon]

but still, if you rotate bone bottom it's smaller than Mt. Fay

[fathom hill]

what are those

houses? more windows?

[trail wagon]

Btw

Silksong takes place in Canada

[fathom hill]

celeste reference

[sinful nimbus]

Miscellaneous buildings I think

[trail wagon]

Correct

[fathom hill]

yah yah

[trail wagon]

yaah

Omg I just realized

[silk dirge]

has this gotten celeste mountain review'd yet

the review for irl celeste mountain are really fucking funny

[fathom hill]

considering how its an area of a game, and not like the name of the game (also tc hasnt really confirmed that its based on the real thing)

im guessing way less people would even know or

would brush it as coincidence

im gonna check tho

[trail wagon]

There are three towers in the Citadel

We only see one properly

[silk dirge]

one of those is probably memorium

[edgy river]

I was thinking about First Sinner. And her name implies there had been other sinners, are there other weavers that were locked up (or maybe killed/exiled?) or would the other sinners be everyone else in the slab?

And if it's the second, would that mean whatever FS did was the first ever crime committed during the ruling of the citadel?

[trail wagon]

my friend spent 9 hours

[fathom hill]

how do you see this ones again

[trail wagon]

yes, but still

[fathom hill]

google has been so weird lately i swear

[foggy fractal]

the citadel logo is based on gms' cocoon right ? I thought it was based on the weavers playing the harp or smth before but that conflicts with the lore iirc ? I don't remember exactly why though, some timeline shenanigans

[edgy river]

What is the one in the right?

[edgy nebula]

she”s the first sinner, the first to commit sin and be locked up, not the first weaver sinner

the sinners after her are just the penitents and the slabflies

[fathom hill]

It could be, the religion was made by the weavers

[trail wagon]

Trobbio background

[fathom hill]

so maybe they put both their image and gms, to represent themselves in the citadel

[trail wagon]

Yes, it was probably the cacoon

The cacoon is in a similar harp too, if you noticed ahahha

[fathom hill]

oh really?

[edgy river]

I meant the right tower

[fathom hill]

i mean gms liked the harps

[trail wagon]

quite literally

[fathom hill]

how are we not sure this infraestructure was made by the weavers though

like the complex itself

[edgy river]

I think GMS prison was based on the harps the weavers used to play in

[fathom hill]

but again gms also has like

metallic limbs so

whats up with that

[edgy river]

Actually no, they're different

[fathom hill]

and she did like harps

[trail wagon]

What do you mean? We are sure it was lol

[trail wagon]

It would be a genius symbol

Putting your abuser in a cage inside of what they used to abuse you with

[fathom hill]

the harp part

[edgy river]

Yeah it would make sense for them that the prison of song was in the shape of the instruments they used to have to play

[fathom hill]

looking part

[trail wagon]

Like "you made us play these harps? Now play it yourself"

[fathom hill]

I thought you were implying that the harp looking thing was originally part of gms coccoon

[trail wagon]

Oh, idk, not sure if it's reaaally relevant

[trail wagon]

ohhh

[fathom hill]

and not like, something added after

[trail wagon]

now I'm not sure what you mean by what you think I meant lol

[trail wagon]

Ohhh gotcha

[fathom hill]

and i said, oh but gms does have some metallic parts, and she did like harps for some reason

so maybe?

but most likely the weavers doing

[trail wagon]

Idk, maybe they did actually imrison her using this thing and then wrapped in a cacoon

We don't really know

Like tied her up or whatever

While she was asleep

We're not given any specifics of how it happened

[fathom hill]

yah

the citadel timeline is already something confusing

[trail wagon]

There's also a bunch of harps in the Cradle

[fathom hill]

yah yah

the weavers were made originally to play music for her apparently

cue the widow memory

[trail wagon]

Well, that's for sure

We know that

But what is somewhat unclear is that why would they be this high up

Does it mean the Cradle existed before the Citadel?

Or like some part of it

[fathom hill]

i mean

maybe?

[trail wagon]

And then they just built new stuff on the basis of what was already there

[fathom hill]

there must have been some space for gms and her daughters up there

[trail wagon]

yeah, that's right

[fathom hill]

maybe done by the same weavers by petition of gms

[whole marsh]

The cradle itself seems to be separate from the citadel. I imagine it existed before.

[trail wagon]

prolly

We can also agree Greymoor used to be underwater?

[whole marsh]

Are those supposed to be barnicals?

[fathom hill]

do we know why widow is fucked up like that yet

was it the whiteward guys

[trail wagon]

I'm sure they are

I mean I live close to the ocean

These things are very common

yeah

Plus they're only at the bottom

[whole marsh]

Not officially. There’s a few theories. The 2 most likely imo, are that the other weavers did that to her since they were rebelling against GMS and she was still loyal. Or she did it herself as an act of devotion and to separate herself from the other weavers who were rebelling.

[fathom hill]

but the maskless thing seems to make her more devoted somehow no?

[trail wagon]

There is a CUT cutscene where the Weavers break her face and...

[whole marsh]

I’ve been wondering wtf these things were for so long, but not it seems so obvious lmao

[fathom hill]

Oh so it is the weavers?

[trail wagon]

Yeah, it makes sense

[fathom hill]

wasnt just like one sprite

[trail wagon]

we DON'T know

Just to make it clear

It's a CUT cutscene

[spark valve]

She is devoted and her mask was removed
That doesn’t mean she’s devoted because her mask was removed

[whole marsh]

For real? Is it on YouTube? Or only mentioned in the code?

[fathom hill]

yah of course

im asking if in the cuit scene is it the weavers

[trail wagon]

I believe there are only sprites for it

[fathom hill]

Im only guessing now why is she in operation yet then

[trail wagon]

The mask changes the bugs' personality

So it might be the case

[trail wagon]

It doesn't, but might xp

[fathom hill]

I believe that if you strip away someone mask they become more feral (thus, "crazy" by thinking bug standard)

so the thing that persist is instinct

[trail wagon]

Yeah

[whole marsh]

Could have been locked up and broke out recently. But I think it might be because GMS is close to waking, so she’s preparing for that (using bellhart as an offering for example)

[fathom hill]

but we also have feral bugs with mask so who is to say

[trail wagon]

Like the FS

[fathom hill]

yah yah

[trail wagon]

She doesn't really act all that different compared to Widow

[fathom hill]

yah but tbf first sinner does maintain some

she even makes herself a dress to fight

also its a memory and after being locked up for who know how much, she in a weird state of mind

[trail wagon]

Snails in the Abyss?

[fathom hill]

yah

[trail wagon]

I know it's not the same

[fathom hill]

weird aint it

the snail shamans tell you they dont worship the void specifically im sure

no wait, i think one does in hk

[trail wagon]

It's likely they're related to the Ancient Civilization

[fathom hill]

idk if in ss

[fathom hill]

yah yah

[spark valve]

They’re not related to the ancient civilization

[foggy fractal]

we've seen the same architecture in hollow knight, we can't really say anything because all we got is "these two things look similar"

[fathom hill]

I mean

[trail wagon]

why?

oh

[trail wagon]

why?

[fathom hill]

some of these do look awfully similar

maybe not the ones on the walls though?

these just look like ore formation or something

dont know me rocks

[spark valve]

Snail shaman says abyss isn’t a place his kind ever thought to look, even if pharloom snails did it means snails are not categorically connected to it and don’t have any origin there

Plus we see ac bugs they aren’t snails

And there’s nothing connecting them whatsoever

[fathom hill]

could it be weird to be different sects

[trail wagon]

oh, sure, they're not void

[fathom hill]

i need to check the ss dialogue

[trail wagon]

that's 100%

[trail wagon]

they use the void trap

[fathom hill]

cuz the snail shaman in hk does tell you that

[spark valve]

They’re not connected to it in origin whatsoever

[trail wagon]

no, I didn't say

ohh sorry

[fathom hill]

but also the ones in ss told hornet that she must have had a hunch that they would use void

so idk

[trail wagon]

I should've phrased it better

sure, they're not void and weren't born in the Abyss, that's 100%*

[spark valve]

They have nothing to do with ac

Zero connections

They don’t even worship void the way ac did

[fathom hill]

What exactly do we know of ac

[lethal burrow]

what do we think

[trail wagon]

about what

[fathom hill]

im guessing the bug in the walls

[trail wagon]

I mean

This statue represents the Pilgrims

Giving offerings, apparently

[lethal burrow]

These architecture is right there and I am wondering about what you think of it and who could've made it or it has anything to do with anything because it's all over the place and it's mysterious

[fathom hill]

Ah yeah

[trail wagon]

all of the are related to pilgrimage

[fathom hill]

There does seem like they have a

plate kind of thing theyre holding

[lethal burrow]

even the ones karak architecture is built on top of and the ones build in verdania?

[fathom hill]

could be

[lethal burrow]

Oh, those are definitely pilgrims for sure but I just question if they weren't carved into pre-existing architecture, considering how old some of the other stuff seems to be at where it's located

[fathom hill]

just looks like rock to me

they made pillars and put stuff there

[trail wagon]

Verdania is the weirdest, because it should've existed before the Weavers, and perharps even before GMS

[trail wagon]

TC probably were lazy ahahha

[lethal burrow]

there's plenty of different looking rocks though. It's all about styles and all that.

[trail wagon]

I agree

[lethal burrow]

there's the golden pedigree of the Citadel, the weird metal of the Weavers, the coral of karak, and bamboo of the moors, and bone of the ants, everything has their own building styles and stuff, but who does the stonework belong to exactly?

[trail wagon]

I would propose this

Perhaps the Citadel stole their style

In fact there is a proof they did steal some things. It's clear that some automotons are inspired by some bugs

Like cog workers' attack looks a lot like bone flies' attack

[lethal burrow]

but who is the "their"

[fathom hill]

colonizers always do

wouldnt be farfetched to think

[fathom hill]

all we know is that the things depicted are pilgrims

now, did they see the pillars and decided to claim them

or did they make the pillars and put them there

cuz in karak it could be? they did colonize eventually

[craggy smelt]

isamor describes the early Citadel as unadorned stone - that could have been their earliest style, simple stone

[lethal burrow]

well karak built its architecture on top of crumbled versions of these pillars, so it's at least least older than them, and they also exist within verdania...?

[trail wagon]

Agreed

[trail wagon]

Verdania's

[lethal burrow]

so would this imply karak is younger than the citadel?

[trail wagon]

I mean

[trail wagon]

No

What I'm saying is that Verdania had some architecture style, and they built the first column. The Citadel continued building them in other parts of Pharloom. The Pilgrim statues were used much later, it's purely the Citadel's invention

Karak has been colonized by the Citadel too

[craggy smelt]

maybe the bugs that became the Citadel pilgrims had earlier holdings that the Weavers wound up co-opting for the early Citadel

[lethal burrow]

yes but karak built on top of the pillars they would've had to have come after

[trail wagon]

Another option is that it's actually the Coral Gorge civilization's architecture, and they just built it everywhere

[lethal burrow]

But it does look very different, which is odd

[fathom hill]

Its possible that karak died shortly after the citadel put themsleves there cuz of the water redirection theory thing

[craggy smelt]

there is some reference to them ruling half of Pharloom iirc

Snail Shamans: In their prime, they and their order held half of Pharloom under hardened claw.

[trail wagon]

Wdym Karak is "built" on top of the pillars?

[fathom hill]

unless karak died first and then they took the water

[trail wagon]

Are you talking about the pink plants?

[lethal burrow]

Look in the top middle of this image

[trail wagon]

Oh okay

Again, perhaps it's their architecture

[whole marsh]

Original religious structure from before the gilded age (citadel, rosaries, living in excess, gold trimming on everything, etc.)

[trail wagon]

I think the easiest and most plausible explanation is that TC were lazy and didn't want to draw different assets for different locations and just got away with using the same assets

[trail wagon]

To be brutally honest, I think that's the case

[craggy smelt]

all lore must be over-anaylzed

[trail wagon]

But I agree

[fathom hill]

i think they mean that they were there before everything

like an extra old civ or something

[trail wagon]

That's why the reason why Silksong's colors are more saturated is because Hornet is not void and the Knight is, so their vision is different, and when GMS screams in Act 3 saturation drops to the HK level

[whole marsh]

Pious Isamor talks about a citadel of stone. I imagine that’s part of that/the path leading up to the original citadel

[fathom hill]

since the pillars are all the same even in places not touched directly by the citadel

or as said, the karak ones seem to be constructed over those

but again for me it just looks like rock

[craggy smelt]

ancient civ like pillars, if those structures in the abyss are built and not natural
but I don't think they were as widespread throughout Pharloom as they were in Hallownest
otherwise we'd find soul totems everywhere

(I wish we'd found at least one...)

[trail wagon]

they're natural i'm pretty sure

[whole marsh]

The ones in the abyss are waaaay bigger and look very different

[trail wagon]

these, right?

[craggy smelt]

yeah
pillars of the world

[trail wagon]

yeah, they're natural I think

[whole marsh]

I suppose the stone pillars could be from whatever came before GMS and the 4 ancient rulers we get hearts from.

[fathom hill]

most possible

[whole marsh]

I need to do a run through while intentionally paying attention and taking notes to see if that makes sense

[fathom hill]

some of these are quite literally just the same drawing

they needed pillar, they made pillar

[craggy smelt]

ancient pilgrims
worshippers of like dirt, or something

[fathom hill]

pillar_asset_1

[trail wagon]

Also, incredibly important question. WHAT PREY???

[craggy smelt]

What have you got?

[polar fiber]

creepers? only other thing

[fathom hill]

yah prolly creepers

[whole marsh]

Has to be shadow creepers. The big one has void in its belly. So that could be from eating a bunch of them

[craggy smelt]

they just wait for anything to come along
however long it takes
Creepers don't need to eat, these might not either

[trail wagon]

They're probably not very good food, based on the fact they dont eat, drink or sleep...

But anyways

[trail wagon]

How do you know it does?

[whole marsh]

Hunters journal notes, and it literally spits void goop at you

[trail wagon]

Wait

[lethal burrow]

with eight year development, I don't think that's very plausible but if you still wanna think that
then let me reframe the question by instead of asking what team Cherry meant when they put these in the game, instead asking what these pillars could possibly be from an in world perspective that makes any sense

[trail wagon]

Are you talking about Gargant Glooms?

[whole marsh]

I’m taking about the big snoot monster that spawns the smaller sucky guys

Sorry I wasn’t clear lol

[trail wagon]

I thought you were talking about big shadow creepers (charges)

[trail wagon]

It's actually intererting, because it doesn't say they don't DRINK

[fathom hill]

good soul battery though

both games

[trail wagon]

They spit gloomsacs too

[lethal burrow]

True but then, what of it being in places that have no business being like that? idk

[craggy smelt]

the first game's version does

[whole marsh]

Speaking of void lore, this is a really good video that covers all of this

https://youtu.be/t_-6Bvl41ds?si=2ks20Cn7RHxyt_vL

[craggy smelt]

yeah, that's a good one

[fathom hill]

oh i had it recommended for a while but never got myself to watch it

ill do it now, dont have much else to do

[whole marsh]

Sands of Karak was conquered, Verdania, might have been neutral with GMS for a while.

[lethal burrow]

I don't trust any lore video that has "explained" or "complete" in the title or thumbnail

[trail wagon]

Honestly, I don't think we should necessarily overanalyze every single aspect of the game. Yes, it took 8 years of development, but I'm pretty sure the reason why it didn't take 15 years of development is because they used some shortcuts and simplified everything as possible. There's nothing to be ashamed about, in fact I wouldn't have noticed these pillars if you didn't mention

[trail wagon]

Watched

[trail wagon]

Not necessarily, it has some interesting insights

[lethal burrow]

if you look at the image, you'll notice that karak built their stuff on top of the pillars not the other way around so the conjuring explanation does not check out

[whole marsh]

Why don’t you just watch it and and come to your own conclusion after

[lethal burrow]

it could be nothing or it could mean everything. We'll never know unless we look. And even if it is nothing, it's still fun to try to form connections, so I don't get why we shouldn't.

[lethal burrow]

because I'm a mortal man with finite time

[trail wagon]

I mean geniuenly, I'm more than sure it's just to save time. I didn't even notice they were the same. It's all context dependant

[craggy smelt]

if the karak ruled half of pharloom at one time, maybe it was the top half?

[sinful nimbus]

I don't trust any lore video unless its from El Chiefo

[whole marsh]

Skill issue

[lethal burrow]

ok bro whatever

[trail wagon]

If you play close attention you can see that in the first game there are like 3 or 4 areas with almost identical assets. The only thing it means, is that we're underground and it looks similar because it does

[foggy fractal]

the person that made is Gurr the father of Gilly ?

[sinful nimbus]

yes 🗣️

[craggy smelt]

it makes sense!

[trail wagon]

WHAT?!

[lethal burrow]

An asset being a rock is different from a pillar

[trail wagon]

She is clearly the daughter of Gargant Gloom and Mask Maker

[sinful nimbus]

While us fools were constantly bickering about Lace's age and Phantom's gender El Chiefo decided to actually PAY ATTENTION TO THE GAME and craft a brand new theory of his very own that shook our understanding of two characters.

[fathom hill]

gilly is void?

[sinful nimbus]

mossbag could never

[fathom hill]

literally

[trail wagon]

I agree. There might be some lore reason for that too

[lethal burrow]

should talk about grayroot zote again

[trail wagon]

holy crap

[trail wagon]

I can't

I will cry

😭😭😭

[fathom hill]

phantom gender discourse is so new i actually missed it

[lethal burrow]

it is a tragic story 🫣

[fathom hill]

its always something new with yall

[trail wagon]

Gruz mother is a HB btw

[sinful nimbus]

Phantom discourse has been going on for like two months

[trail wagon]

HJ refers to Phantom as 'they'

[fathom hill]

I literally couldnt fathom the extent some would go for it though

[lethal burrow]

they is an Omninoun though

[trail wagon]

Lace refers to Phantom as 'sister'

[whole marsh]

Doesn’t lace call her sister though?

[lethal burrow]

Or maybe the other way around

[fathom hill]

rather what i saw here was like "oh yah its kind of confusing"

and that was it

[trail wagon]

yes

[lethal burrow]

(probably not)

[polar fiber]

we dont know its lace

[fathom hill]

people actually have a whole agenda on the topic

crazy

[trail wagon]

perhaps

[fathom hill]

oh please dont start on this topic

[trail wagon]

[fathom hill]

fuckkk

[trail wagon]

oh wait you're right

[whole marsh]

I hadn’t considered that, I suppose that’s possible

[trail wagon]

we don't actually know

[polar fiber]

i mean its most likely lace, but its never said it is

[sinful nimbus]

You weren't there for the vessel gender agenda

[trail wagon]

me too

[fathom hill]

Oh i was

[trail wagon]

vessel genda agenda

[fathom hill]

but the knight does actually have confirmed by tc pronouns

[trail wagon]

anyways

[sinful nimbus]

OG

[trail wagon]

let's not pls

[whole marsh]

Phantom being stuck in a tube to regenerate silk to extend her lifespan is giving strong Prometheus and Pandora vibes from Mega Man ZX

[sinful nimbus]

That got me muted one time

[trail wagon]

their prolly

[whole marsh]

GMS is Master Albert

[sinful nimbus]

Big Oronge thinks its a meme or something

[trail wagon]

I would just stick to the confirmed pronoun

[fathom hill]

phantom is in this grey area cuz idk

[trail wagon]

whish is "they"

[frigid belfry]

idk it kind of confuses me, a literal corpse animated by a substance has no gender

[fathom hill]

gender and sexuality seem to be a funny topic

[trail wagon]

that's the only time they're referred to by any pronoun

[lethal burrow]

well, what else are we gonna talk about? this?

[fathom hill]

homo-sexual underground vibes

[polar fiber]

where?

[fathom hill]

why we obsessing over this are we dumb

[sinful nimbus]

Its funny

[fathom hill]

Reddit im sure

one of the amas

[trail wagon]

agreed

[fathom hill]

or well, tc said the interpretation was valid

[sinful nimbus]

Lace age is kinda like vessel purity too so really nothing ever changes

[trail wagon]

We were talking about something interesting

[spark valve]

TC confirmed vessels are genderless

[trail wagon]

and you brought up this :c

[fathom hill]

literally

[fathom hill]

Im sorry

[trail wagon]

pls let's nooot

[fathom hill]

i thought some would be more civil abt it

[spark valve]

Explicitly stated and yet people still whine about their fanon being wrong?

[trail wagon]

no why

[sinful nimbus]

I'm happy you found Gurr Gilly to be interesting

[trail wagon]

I don't think you did

[foggy fractal]

does the pain ever end or merely transforms...

[trail wagon]

and I'm not mad

[fathom hill]

Oh?

as i said, normally when i was here and someone brought it up

[sinful nimbus]

They deleted the livestream because they realized the error of their ways

[trail wagon]

you are silking me to death

[craggy smelt]

so where's the Greywyrm, is the question

[fathom hill]

normally it would be like a comment or two, not like sides weird discourse thing

Like who cares bro

[trail wagon]

I'm daing

[sinful nimbus]

I cares

[spark valve]

They’ve said it outside of that plus there’s the gendered child stuff

[sinful nimbus]

that's not about gender gender 🥱

[fathom hill]

theres way more interesting phantom lore that is unexplored than what their gender is

[sinful nimbus]

Also its Ari's word against Graig's

[fathom hill]

like literally why does it matter

[lethal burrow]

I think that's a song of ice and fire character

[fathom hill]

you care abt a lot of stuff

[craggy smelt]

he can't have kids though
that might be a spoiler

[lethal burrow]

people can't even understand that grandmother silk wasn't the one that put her in exhaust or I don't think they're ready for her lore

[trail wagon]

I have a proposition

[fathom hill]

rarely interesting stuff

[sinful nimbus]

I don't care about anything what's the point of all of it man

[trail wagon]

Let's only refer to character by the known pronoun and call it it

Phantom is only ever referred to as "they"

[fathom hill]

I always was confused by this

[foggy fractal]

hey... don't say that... I'm here... you're good ol pal Andy...

[sinful nimbus]

God bless

[fathom hill]

Was lace and phantom made after the weavers rebelled no?

[spark valve]

Lace refers to her as her sister and GMS exclusively has daughters phantom isn’t comparable to vessels

[lethal burrow]

why did you type this like needolin dialogue

[fathom hill]

given the better child spun pure than them dialogue

[trail wagon]

Just to make sure, where was that confirmed? I haven't looked into their lore at all

[frigid belfry]

her notes imply she was "tasked" to the exhaust so i wonder who it was

[lethal burrow]

He doesn't need to be confirmed it just makes an extremely little sense based off of everything in the game hold on a second. Let me get the copy paste.

[craggy smelt]

I doubt a silkborn would take orders from anyone but Silk

[lethal burrow]

on the subject of phantom and their abandonment: the journal says that Phantom was tasked with the exhaust organ, but this poses the question.... by who? Certainly not grandmother silk who is presumed to be asleep, and even if conscious would surely not like the citadel or care for its structure enough to assign a daughter to the exhaust. no it seems it could only be the Weavers or the conductors, and from there, the reason for phantoms abandonment seems only clear, in one way or another, knowingly or not, she sided with the citadel as opposed to her mother, sided with the very people keeping grandmother silk caged, and for that reason, I can very much see grandmother silk 'abandoning' phantom (in whatever capacity she's able given her circumstances anyways.)

[sinful nimbus]

(who are only genderless through a mistake )

[fathom hill]

thing is the gms being asleep is weird on itself

why are there empty cages in the cradle

[lethal burrow]

✅

[trail wagon]

I mean they can be tasked by GMS

The same way Lace is

[fathom hill]

who is sending these people to capture weavers, if not gms

[lethal burrow]

are they

[lethal burrow]

Why would they be?

[trail wagon]

who

[lethal burrow]

The person whose name is in the message I responded to

[trail wagon]

Why not?

[spark valve]

GMS is sending people to capture weavers

[trail wagon]

When were they created?

[fathom hill]

then how did gms make them if gms was asleep

[spark valve]

Haunting

[fathom hill]

she obviously is not totally asleep is my point

[lethal burrow]

lace I can understand keeping the citadel silent at least is in grandmothers's benefit but why on earth would she have any reason to keep and maintain the place that's keeping her bound? Grandmothersilk wouldn't want that.

[fathom hill]

yah

[lethal burrow]

I asked why not when??? your statement makes no sense at all

[fathom hill]

So why wouldnt gms be the one that sent phantom there

if the whole argument is "she was asleep"

[trail wagon]

Why does the Organ keep her asleep?

[trail wagon]

I need to clarify it

[lethal burrow]

Is English your first language genuine question

[spark valve]

Why would GMS send phantom to the exhaust organ

[trail wagon]

There's no statement

[lethal burrow]

correct, I meant to say question

[trail wagon]

no

[craggy smelt]

definitely her - Hornet's journal re. enovys:

Bugs like these crossed the caves to bring me to Pharloom. I cut down many before my capture. Then I had thought them minded and cunning. Now I see the singular will that haunts them all.
Her influence may not be absolute, but even a sleeping god is still a god

[fathom hill]

the organ is not fcor that im sure

the organ is there to keep away pilgrims from the elevator via the mist

[trail wagon]

I was asking whether we know when Phantom and Lace were created

[sinful nimbus]

The organ expels exhaust

[trail wagon]

And if so then when

[spark valve]

No it’s there to manage exhaust

[sinful nimbus]

It also creates song which travels up through pipes to presumably keep GMS asleep as well

[fathom hill]

yah exactly

[spark valve]

It’s the exhaust organ

[fathom hill]

could have both uses

[trail wagon]

Isn't it there to generate steam for the Citadel?

[fathom hill]

the mist is there for something

unless its like a consequence of the exhaust

[spark valve]

The mist is a byproduct

[fathom hill]

im not sure

[trail wagon]

Isn't the exhaust literally steam?

[fathom hill]

why is it called sinners road then

[lethal burrow]

OK, here is my stating of everything since there's confusion

We do not know that grand silk tasked either of the silk children to do their tasks, the silk children were created after the Weavers rebellion as far as we are aware.

Even in the case, that lace is being tasked to keep the citadel silent, at least that task makes sense and aligns with grandmother silks motives.

The exhaust organ on the other hand by contrast does not serve any function to grandmother silk it. In fact, instead helps the citadel stay functional, which is the exact opposite of what grandmother silk wants.

The exhaust organ is for exhaust, think of the exhaust on a car.

[fathom hill]

did the pilgrims figure out they could go through there and got that reputation?

[spark valve]

Because pilgrims don’t go that way

[sinful nimbus]

Nah the steam is unwanted

Mournful creature tasked alone to expel the Citadel's choking refuse

[spark valve]

It’s the road away from the citadel

[spark valve]

There is no path to the citadel before hornet she breaks walls

[fathom hill]

which is it

[craggy smelt]

they're meant to go through the front door

[spark valve]

Also pilgrims wouldn’t cheat the system

[lethal burrow]

there are the little judge God seeker pole things in bilewater so it seems like at some point that was also a path to the citadel maybe? Or at least that was an idea at one point.

[trail wagon]

I still don't know if there's any clear connection between GMS being asleep and the exhaust

[trail wagon]

Okay

[fathom hill]

i meant as in the pilgrims figured it out, but since its a backdoor not intended, they called it sinners road

but prolly not, as said it was sealed

[fathom hill]

what is there?

show me photo pls

[trail wagon]

I didn't agrue that Phantom necessarily was, I was just asking why wouldn't that be possible

[lethal burrow]

The citadel keeps grandmother silk asleep, or at least that's it primary purpose.

People are trying to say that grandmother silk is the one that has tasked phantom at the exhaust organ.

I'm saying this makes no sense

[lethal burrow]

I will retrieve it at this very moment

[trail wagon]

I'm not entirely sure what the purpose of the Exhaust Organ is, and how we know if it is what some people say it is

[sinful nimbus]

Phantom's journal entry

[fathom hill]

I wonder if the exhaust organ is like a

blindspot for gms influence

[spark valve]

Mournful creature tasked alone to expel the Citadel's choking refuse.

[lethal burrow]

The exhaust organ is supposedly responsible for the state of bilewater so it can be assumed it's acting as an exhaust pipe of sorts for the citadel and pushing all their grime and bile out to the side

[fathom hill]

since lace apparently used to hang out there

its full of silk though

[craggy smelt]

Hornet opens one path, but there could be others off-map, or ones open in the past
there's tunnels into the bilewater area and similar - the idea though is that it's not the proper path to the citadel, so going along it would be sinful

[trail wagon]

Alrighty, got it. The HJ entry it calls it "the Citadel's choking refuse"

[fathom hill]

ik that

[lethal burrow]

presumably, at one point, this would've been used by Phantom to stay alive, idk

[trail wagon]

I still don't see how exactly it keeps GMS asleep

[fathom hill]

yah for sure

[trail wagon]

At least not directly

[fathom hill]

im sure thats the reason why the sirens mist ladies thing absorb silk

[lethal burrow]

because it is supporting the citadel which keeps grandmother silk asleep. It's keeping the citadel up and running or at least in a more functional state than otherwise.

[trail wagon]

But is she currently fully asleep?

[fathom hill]

but also how such a spot with so much silk lying around just escapes gms

maybe cuz its just not tied to the ceiling?

ill check the scenery

[lethal burrow]

no but the point is not how much it helps the citadel the point is that it doesn't make any sense for grandmother silk to station her daughter there in any capacity regardless.

[trail wagon]

GMS is kept asleep by the song. The existence of the Citadel doesn't seem to inheritanly keep her asleep by itself

[craggy smelt]

I wonder if Silk wants to keep some aspects of the Citadel running?
not the cage part, but maybe she likes the church aspect?

[lethal burrow]

because even if it wasn't doing anything at the current moment, I doubt, grandmother silk has love enough for the Citadel to ensure it's functioning good

[trail wagon]

I mean doesn't GMS use the Citadel's powers now too?

[sinful nimbus]

Nearly everything related to the Citadel is music themed because that's what keeps GMS asleep

"We sang your chains...
Divine Silk..."

"Now, in our Citadel's silence, we share their truth. Only one monarch's claws ever clutched this kingdom, though we raised our voices to cry otherwise"

[spark valve]

What is the full name of the citadel

[foggy fractal]

Citadel of Song ?

[lethal burrow]

Maybe, but you would have to build a case for that I think

[spark valve]

[trail wagon]

Yes, Citadel of Song. It doesn't mean she doesn't wanna use it herself too

[trail wagon]

Hunting down the Weavers?

[fathom hill]

who do you propose put them there then? the weavers?

[lethal burrow]

There's no indication that the city that was made to play a variety of songs other than the one big one

[fathom hill]

i mean there must be some devoted weavers left after the rebellion, but wasnt gms asleep

[craggy smelt]

she does want to bind bugs to her will, and the Citadel functioning provides her a steady stream of followers

[fathom hill]

or am i messing up the timeline

[lethal burrow]

did you see my original copy paste? I basically believe it was either the Weaver's and conductors, as I think the silk children came into being when grandmother silk was still asleep

[sinful nimbus]

The Citadel has many tunes inside it

[lethal burrow]

Or at least Phantom came into being then

[sinful nimbus]

Psalm Cylinders, Phantom's Organ, the things the choir sings, etc

[lethal burrow]

i'm not denying that, but those aren't his primary purposes is what I'm saying. There's no indication that you could swap out the big song that's keeping grandmother silk asleep for another song is the point.

[trail wagon]

There's not really any indication there's enough song to keep GMS asleep. Why would she wake up when we get to her? We don't really destroy anything in the Citadel, we don't stop its operation either

[craggy smelt]

Silk seems like she'd have enough power and influence to just tear the place apart completely if that's what she wanted
she can shoot silk threads through solid stone and raise corpses

[lethal burrow]

That whole situation is very weird no matter what angle you look at it from or interpretation you have

[sinful nimbus]

Well what I'm saying is I think they all help to keep GMS asleep

[trail wagon]

Yes, I agree, I'm not saying it's clear :p

[sinful nimbus]

But I don't think you could remove threefold melody yeah

[lethal burrow]

Even the one at the Bellway

[fathom hill]

Im saying that for the weavers case the timeline doesnt match

but the conductors im not sure

[sinful nimbus]

Plausibly

[trail wagon]

Still, I don't see why Phantom's task cannot be possibly given by GMS

[sinful nimbus]

The bellways might be to carry song throughout the land

Not sure why else it would exist tbh

[trail wagon]

I still find it plausible

[fathom hill]

also not all song keeps gms asleep im sure, just some of it

[trail wagon]

I mean quite literally, the Weavers DID sing to her before she was put to sleep

[fathom hill]

makes sense why would gms want the citadel specifically to be silent

but the organ could be unrelated

[fathom hill]

yahh

gms did like music, just the citadel turned that against her

[trail wagon]

"... for her light... eternal... our song sustains..."

[fathom hill]

also something something its a punishment to put a silk being in a space surrounded of muckmaggots

[trail wagon]

It doesn't seem like this SONG was what put her to sleep

[fathom hill]

why would phantom choose to be assigned there out of all places

[trail wagon]

Who else would send Phantom there? The Weavers? Wasn't the initial purpose of Phantom to actually free GMS from the Weavers? Why would they listen to the Weavers?

[fathom hill]

The weavers prolly not since the timeline doesnt match in my eyes

since when lace and phantom were created it was after the rebellion

the conductors maybe? but why

[trail wagon]

To be honest, it's pure speculation, but I thought both Lace and Panthom were created after the Weavers

[lethal burrow]

Photo shown

[lethal burrow]

more evidence to the theory that grandmother silk knew about the construction of the citadel, but didn't know about its purpose I suppose

[fathom hill]

ah yeah

[fathom hill]

Yahh

[lethal burrow]

The Weavers did rule for a time after the rebellion though

[fathom hill]

did they?

but while gms was asleep no?

[lethal burrow]

A random silk creature spawns out of nowhere, might as well position in a place surrounded by silk eating maggots tucked away in the depths of the Citadel Nobody will know about.

[lethal burrow]

yes.

[fathom hill]

The ones who fled were before or after the rebellion

[lethal burrow]

Unclear and currently debated

[fathom hill]

then gms wouldnt have done silk daughters

unless she made them while asleep

[lethal burrow]

maybe she would've had them while she was asleep, they could've been subconscious for all we know

[fathom hill]

that would be dumb

i dunno abt that

[lethal burrow]

I take the position that the daughters came before the haunting started, but I guess I could see it the other way

[fathom hill]

No, the daughters prolly were made before the haunting

[lethal burrow]

What do you think of the screenshot though and when it's implications could be?

[fathom hill]

the haunting is said to be a recent thing

[lethal burrow]

Where is it said to be recent?

[fathom hill]

but the caretaker says lace been there a long ass time

[fathom hill]

Some of the pilgrims me think

Or the snail lady at the beggining

lemme check

[trail wagon]

Also, what's with my English? 🙁

[fathom hill]

hes being mean

ur english seems fine by me dw abt it

[lethal burrow]

it's not the quality of your written English it's your ability to understand my words that prompted me to ask

Didn't mean any disrespect

[fathom hill]

im quite sure someone says something like, the road gotten dangerous lately or something

I always assumed it was recent generation wise

flick i think?

[lethal burrow]

If you could get the dialogue, that would be dandy

[fathom hill]

im checking as i speak

[trail wagon]

Ohhh

[trail wagon]

Okay, no worries

I don't think it's a language problem, most of my questions and confusion came from me not understanding the connection you're making

Especially with the purpose and function of the Exhaust Organ

[trail wagon]

I don't think it's that recent to be honest

There's not really anything indicating that to be frank

[fathom hill]

Mmm

[trail wagon]

Sooo

[trail wagon]

You didn't respond to anything I said

[trail wagon]

About GMS not inherently willing for the Citadel to stop operating

[lethal burrow]

I think she could've wanted it to keep operating. I hadn't considered the idea so I didn't have anything to say. I don't know what specific capacity she's hoping to keep it operating at though. Considering her hard feelings about the Weavers I would assume she would have a detain for the citadel after knowing it's true purpose that exists on a emotional level, and would therefore want to not keep it running, even if it might be more practical

[fathom hill]

Ok i found one of the dialogues i thought of

but it doesnt really say much

just that the pilgrims dont really know the nature of the haunting

[trail wagon]

Yes, I understand that, but still. It's clear she IS currently using the Citadel. She does order the Weavers captured

[fathom hill]

they just think its people going mad randomly

[cyan heart]

How does hornet access her memory using the old hearts? How would she even need them

[trail wagon]

Whose dialogue is this?

[fathom hill]

Unless its another dialogue im not finding, maybe i just made it up

[fathom hill]

pilby

[trail wagon]

It's some old ahh cool ahh magical ahh magic secret spell

[trail wagon]

Ohh gotcha

[silk dirge]

i mean i doubt pilgrims could comprehend the idea of higher beings

[cyan heart]

Why couldn't the stilkin tribe fight back the waste that was being poured into their land

[fathom hill]

Yah in part

[silk dirge]

they tried

[fathom hill]

but i think its cuz the ones in bone bottom just hasnt started yet

[cyan heart]

Oh

[silk dirge]

they didnt have much of a chance

[fathom hill]

they think its the normal status quo pilgrimage, like before the haunting

[silk dirge]

thats why groal ate a shaman

[lethal burrow]

you know how you can play the song you silk, and it makes the memories appear? Silk appears to be connected to memories or at least have the capacity to do stuff with them, so because hornet is half Weaver she can use the power of the old hearts in a ritual to manifest an object from her memory

[cyan heart]

Ok

[dry bridge]

The old hearts are presumably connections to powerful long-lived people and allow for the use of that power, which the snail shamans will consume let hornet go into the red memory

[trail wagon]

No he didn't

[trail wagon]

We can find their body

[silk dirge]

he drained the shaman or smth

stole their power

[fathom hill]

also ig the people of bellhart also are ignorant of what the silk controlling minds thing is?

[craggy smelt]

drank part of their Soul maybe

[fathom hill]

havent checked that one though

[trail wagon]

It's not clear how exactly they extracted Shaman's soul, but he definitely didn't eat them

[spark valve]

What were they gonna do about it

[trail wagon]

Sorry for being picky ahahhaah

You probably didn't mean that

[trail wagon]

Throw them to the muckmaggotness

[fathom hill]

"My name is Hornet. It is good to be properly acquainted at last" this one lol

[dry bridge]

stilkin are not as numerous or deadily as the citdel's army. we can probably assume that they did try and paid heavily for it, leading to their modern guerilla tactics

[fathom hill]

dig at shakra

fr

[trail wagon]

Not entirely actually. Pavo tells us about what it feels like

It's very interesting btw

[craggy smelt]

Pilby lives
(pray for act 4)

[trail wagon]

It seems the Hauting works the same way Radiance's infection does, like a hive mind

Pavo heard thoughts that weren't his, as he says

[silk dirge]

i wonder wtf pilgrims thought act 3 was

there is 0 fucking way a pilgrim knows about void

[trail wagon]

It's interesting that none of them seems to actually consider that the Citadel's actions have anything to do with it

[craggy smelt]

yeah, Silk's dialogue during the Unraveled silkheart sequence talks about it
'binding them all' into one mind, etc.

...Bind them all...
...Raise them... Up...
...To devote... Eternal...
...One mind... One union...

[trail wagon]

yeah that too

[fathom hill]

I meant it as in like

they dunno the extent of it like through the pilgrimage

[trail wagon]

Oh, that's right

[fathom hill]

they just say what it felt to them cuz widow did it

[trail wagon]

Yeah, they don't seem to know much about their world

[fathom hill]

for them it could as well be a random one time instance

but also they dont question much either

[trail wagon]

Good servants 🙂

[fathom hill]

literally

[fathom hill]

Oh interesting

I wonder if that is proof that the haunting may have happened before the weavers

or she just decided thats her plan now with the haunting

[hard river]

I like moss bag

[craggy smelt]

I think after
Radiance also allowed her direct creations free will and seemed content with that, until her betrayal

then she went hive mind on everybody

[fathom hill]

yah could be just

higher being modus operandi

[trail wagon]

I like mr mushroom

i wanna see him next to me

[fathom hill]

petiness makes them want to make hive minds for some reason

maybe to not let that happen again

actually most likely its to not let it happen again

couldnt control lace though

[craggy smelt]

I wonder how pale king would've done things if he'd won...

[trail wagon]

Isn't it kinda similar to GMS?

[craggy smelt]

yeah, I was just pointing that out

[fathom hill]

prolly keep on the kingdom as normal?

[trail wagon]

that's right 🙂

[fathom hill]

he thought it would be immortal so

[craggy smelt]

yeah, i guess his problems weren't brought about by his subjects betraying him like Silk and Rad

[fathom hill]

Im sure pk cant die (of old) or any higher being for instance

so maybe he just thought of being a forever ruler

[fathom hill]

yah

maybe the reason why gms didnt put lace in the same hive mind state is cuz

the fact that she is heavily implied to just be neglectful af

like she didnt care to check her mind a bit and see how resentful she actually was?

did she try to pull a homelander by maintaining her having attention issues and thought that would be strong enough or something

[trail wagon]

he was just kinda dumb

he didn't listen to Vespa

[trail wagon]

he died because of the void prolly

[fathom hill]

yah

but he prolly cant die of old

[trail wagon]

Oh btw, I just realized

[fathom hill]

i think not even hornet can

unless her separating herself from mortal bugs is less literal

[trail wagon]

The Weaver mummy in the Abyss fell

[craggy smelt]

well you can't spell Void without old
oh wait yes you can nvm

[fathom hill]

VOlD

[trail wagon]

you can't spell Crust King Yak without True King Of Karak

[craggy smelt]

has anyone tried staying down there after you get silk soar to see what happens? does the Void eventually pull you in?

[trail wagon]

I haven't

I've gotta try

[foggy fractal]

iirc the void comes up and you get hit, and then you respawn on the same platform and it allows you to try again, basically like a rewind

[craggy smelt]

figures

[trail wagon]

I believe it might be the case, I don't remember

[fathom hill]

like in the other sections were you have to ascend

the lava sections do that too

[trail wagon]

What is the lore impication of this sprite?

[craggy smelt]

if I could change only one thing about Silksong
it would be that final lava ascension
where the lava rushes up to the very end and then just suddenly stops

I would have some kind of eruption or something at least

[fathom hill]

floor sweeper

[fathom hill]

would have been cool

[trail wagon]

brass_0012_bg_level.png

[fathom hill]

kinda looks like pablos hammer razor thing

[craggy smelt]

citadel bits

[sinful nimbus]

they just making up razors now

Back in my day we spammed hitchens and occams razor and it was all we needed

[craggy smelt]

next kingdom will be shaving themed

more scissors, razorblades

[fathom hill]

steel city

[craggy smelt]

my god

[craggy smelt]

now I want it more than ever

[fathom hill]

look similar

[trail wagon]

hahahah

[fathom hill]

gms made the weavers, weavers made eva

[trail wagon]

Hairy caves? 😭

[fathom hill]

also the pale beings are kind of connected too in ways

[trail wagon]

Massive Father Hair

[craggy smelt]

clean-shaven

[fathom hill]

with the pale oil

which may have some connection with eva as well

plus something something eva was supposed to be a god

actually question, what would have happened if the weavers plans with eva succeded?