sk-lore

[unique canopy]

If Hornet actually wanted the complete extermination of all of the slabflies then she would've killed the Broodling too, but instead she's actually polite with it. Potentially under the hope that it can spawn a new brood of flies that aren't all universally murderous assholes.

[visual glacier]

There’s only like 5

[olive quartz]

Yes, and I prefer to be gendered. It makes it clear that you're referring to me specifically. Welcome to basic communication

[sinful nimbus]

Not reasonable to get aggressive but definitely something to do in the future

[vestal swan]

I'll be sure to mention you specifically in the future so there's no confusion

[sinful nimbus]

Its not a communication thing (It was incredibly obvious what the message meant) its just preference

[olive quartz]

It was legitimately not obvious to me to be clear

[visual glacier]

“With this one vanquished, I hope to have sped the end for that jail and its distasteful order.” She is not hoping that shit

[unique canopy]

Okay, then why doesn't she want to kill the broodling?

[lapis creek]

hes on a phone we are all tiny to him unfortunately

[visual glacier]

Because she’s dumb

Idk

[sinful nimbus]

Everyone who engages in genocidal rhetoric actively carries out genocide ofc

[olive quartz]

Thank you! You may also choose to familiarize yourself with my preferred pronouns, which are conveniently listed all over my profile, in case you need to complain about me to the other mods again. I doubt any of them will understand who "they" is

[lapis creek]

i mean yeah she does

this is why 'in part' is in the definition provided by the un

a party could commit genocide and then stop without finishing the job they still then deserve to be held accountable

[vestal swan]

I don't click on somebody's profile every time I reply to them, it's not always on everybody's profile either. Sorry I called you a they, there wasn't any specific intention behind it.

[vestal swan]

You just gave me flashbacks to where I saw this argument from somebody and I wish it was on Reddit but it was in this server

[foggy fractal]

we are no better than reddit

[visual glacier]

Obviously hornet is a bad person for trying to genocide the flies

[lapis creek]

fym flashbacks we see this every day when people point out that hornet spared the broodling out of the kindness of her heart

[visual glacier]

They are literally born into slavery

[vestal swan]

Is leaving The brood mother fight an option?

[olive quartz]

You only have to learn them once!

[lapis creek]

i wish it were so

[visual glacier]

The wailing mother is not a required wish

It does give wish points tho

[frosty beacon]

hey so uh

sharpe coming in steel city dlc?

[olive quartz]

can confirm, i did not do wailing mother in steel soul

[visual glacier]

Maybe

[visual glacier]

Yeah fair that fight sucks

[vestal swan]

No I mean like can you literally leave the fight

[olive quartz]

i pretty much dodged anything that didn't give % or a useful upgrade

[visual glacier]

I don’t think so?

[lapis creek]

maybe if you stagger her and beastling call out

[visual glacier]

After you’ve entered

[lapis creek]

idk

[silk dirge]

can you do that lol

[lapis creek]

it might stop you

[vestal swan]

I've only done that in one boss fight but I guess it is possible in some of them

[lapis creek]

i actually dont know if she staggers at all

its been a minute

[visual glacier]

I’m pretty sure she does

[silk dirge]

i mean i guess very few required act 3 boss fights are in places it would work anyway

[vestal swan]

I was going to say maybe she wasn't out to kill them by hunting down the mother, but then again she talks about her sense of smell... She definitely knew where she was going

[silk dirge]

like yeah go ahead and beastling call out of watcher at the edge you gained literally nothing out of doing that lol

[unique canopy]

Nah, arena locks off when you enter.

[vestal swan]

I don't know if logic would consider dream gating out of a fight to be an option of sparing somebody

[lapis creek]

isnt the quest called the wailing mother

[visual glacier]

Yes

It is

[lapis creek]

does she know?

[vestal swan]

Did you have to have a quest for it to show up? I don't remember getting a quest for that

[visual glacier]

You do

[unique canopy]

Yes

[sinful nimbus]

I don't think quest names are diegetic

[visual glacier]

I’m not going to say that hornet was unjustified in killing broodmother but it doesn’t make her intentions any better

[silk dirge]

i mean broodmother is haunted

the problem with the journal entries is shes like im gonna kill all of them regardless of if theyre haunted

[spark valve]

the issues are the intentions not the doing it

[visual glacier]

Exactly

[silk dirge]

like if you said you were gonna kill all haunted enemies but not kill others thats fine bc thats self defense

[visual glacier]

It’s the intention

[silk dirge]

saying youd kill enemies regardless of if theyre haunted or not thats not good

[unique canopy]

Speaking strictly on the wish itself, she accepts a wish to track down wailing sounds from the slab, follows the trail to a burrow, gets trapped in it, and has to fight for her life which includes killing the Broodmother.
She has no sympathy for them after the fact and hopes it'll be the end of them, but she did not start the wish with the intent of tracking down and killing the Broodmother that she didn't even know existed until it started trying to kill her.

[visual glacier]

Yes

She felt accomplished and hoped she had caused their extinction though

[vestal swan]

Yeah but I'm going to blame hornet because her nose can apparently tell lace is made of silk and track through a volcano and she also says they stink

[unique canopy]

If the wish was "we want you to track down the Broodmother of the slab flies whose death will hopefully lead to the elimination of the slab flies as a whole" then that would be a different story.

[visual glacier]

She’s justified in killing broodmother

She’s still racist

[silk dirge]

yeah broodmother is also haunted

that doesnt change her journal entries

[craggy smelt]

Hornet just hates the flies as a goof

[silk dirge]

society if hornet spent her racism towards flies on spit squits and red coral flies instead of slab flies

[silk dirge]

also speaking of red coral flies these are so fucking cursed

[timber pond]

Then the conversation would become would be like "oh So she wants to genocide Mosquitos and crabs, this is incocistent with her chracter because she cares about ecosystems" or some shit

[silk dirge]

bro what ecosystem does putrified ducts have

[timber pond]

The barnaks eat the spit squids and i think the barnaks turn into Duct suckers

but thats just what i see

[vestal swan]

Shitwater and shitair

[visual glacier]

She does not care about the environment

[silk dirge]

the barnaks can get fed something else

i dont fucking care

the only thing worth saving in that area are fleas and huntress

[vestal swan]

What is and isn't haunted seems wildly inconsistent, or I'm just insane

[timber pond]

Then you would be killing an ecosystem

[visual glacier]

I mean not that inconsistent

What’s inconsistent to you

[vestal swan]

Slab doesn't feel like it should be haunted, or judges, or stilkin, or any craws. The only one that shouldn't be haunted that isn't actually haunted is the people playing with fire

[visual glacier]

Burning bugs are haunted tho? Iirc

[sterile jacinth]

Every bug has soul

[vestal swan]

And random ass bosses

[silk dirge]

no

[sterile jacinth]

They’re not

[timber pond]

Everything below Is haunted. that's the Rule established.

[visual glacier]

Damn

[vestal swan]

Hornet cannot manipulate soul like TK does though

And everything below is not haunted

Random forge workers aren't haunted

[sterile jacinth]

Silk and soul are very similar if not the same

[visual glacier]

She can manipulate silk which is a form of soul

[silk dirge]

what

deep docks workers are 100% haunted

[visual glacier]

I’m pretty sure that’s just not true

[vestal swan]

Forge daughter and pal

[timber pond]

Ballow is the only one. and They get huanted when hornet aproaches if they are not already

[silk dirge]

hornet says ballow is the only one with a sane mind

[muted lantern]

Why do you you think they shouldn't be haunted?

[dry bridge]

yeah the whole court of craws thing very feels like it's spelling out that the craws still have a mind to themselves, if they were fully lost to the haunting why would they send a message to hornet yknow

[frigid belfry]

metal v all

[silk dirge]

the slab is right next to the citadel it getting haunted makes sense

[vestal swan]

The two NPCs that help us in the game from the forge, what's the point of haunting the ones that are already working for you would make sense right? Except all of the other already brainwashed and working ones are still being haunted? The resistance group (stilkin) is being haunted etc

[timber pond]

SOme bugs can still aperenlty operate as they would have even if Silk is in thier bones and they are being pulled at by the haunting, Gilly says that the skarrs still resist it.

Its like The bees in the hive in HK

"light farmiliar"

Thier operations don't change much when they are hunted.

[silk dirge]

i mean i dont think gms particularly cares who or what gets haunted

[visual glacier]

I’m confused what the first sentence even means

[silk dirge]

she just wants to ensnare as much as possible and wake up

[vestal swan]

You'd think she wouldn't waste haunting on things that aren't helpful or in her way like the slab, but the forge just has 2 that're still fine?

[visual glacier]

She’s not selective

[silk dirge]

shes just haunting as much as possible

[visual glacier]

Ballow and forge daughter just weren’t ensnsared

[timber pond]

The Haunting Cannot easily ensnare bugs with Strong wills and pepole who are not residents of pharloom

Which are most NPCS you meet

or If they are near the Bells

[silk dirge]

yeah its a question that also applies to uninfected bugs in hallownest

but yeah gms doesnt care who she ensnares

her goal is wake up and bind everything to her

[lapis creek]

bait used to be believable

[silk dirge]

"...Their voices... Their song...
...Their memory...
...Bind their shells...
...Bind their souls...
...Bind them all...
...Raise them... Up...
...To devote... Eternal...
...One mind... One union...

...They are ours... Bound forever..."

[sterile jacinth]

I’m sure getting their shells injected with silk just made their minds a lot easier to take over

[visual glacier]

Yeah

[spark valve]

“GMS isn’t that bad actually”
GMS:

[frigid belfry]

hypothetically is there a strict range to how far gms/radiance/pk could extend their influence

[silk dirge]

idk

[visual glacier]

Potentially yeah because of weavenest atla

[frigid belfry]

where is the influence olympics

[silk dirge]

she did get envoys to go super far

[frigid belfry]

id bet on radiance personally

[lapis creek]

<@&283547423706447872> free money from elon

[lapis creek]

you wouldnt understand you dont have kids

[sterile jacinth]

I’m sure influence is hard to get when there’s literally nothing that lives there

(Like past the blasted steps or weavenest Karn)

I wonder if she’s consciously controlling the bugs that hunt weaverkin or if her influence really can go that far

Is there a limit once you’ve been haunted

[lapis creek]

maybe thats why they have the choral commandment

you wake up in the middle of nowhere with 40 of your friends and you go "oh yeah i guess ballador did send us here"

[sterile jacinth]

Did they get re haunted?

Is gms range extended cause they have silk in their shells

[silk dirge]

also speaking of this why is there a silk explosion in weaver queen

[sterile jacinth]

I’d guess just the overwhelming amount of power

Binding a god has got to be a little stronger than Hornet was really prepared for

[silk dirge]

yeah

[frigid belfry]

i assume after hornet becomes a higher being, the rest of gms's essence + creation of a new hb just booms

idk speculation

[vestal swan]

She didn't find a way to waste it like GMS yet

[timber pond]

Aparently the weavers can be "sensed" so who knows

[sterile jacinth]

I’m just wondering if the bugs are still haunted

And if so is it because they have silk in their shells?

[silk dirge]

yes

[sterile jacinth]

Wow gms range for haunting is huge then

[silk dirge]

"In the air. The water. Everywhere.
Inside their shells. Twisted inside. Guts.
Tightest around heart. Pulsing rhythm.
Sick. Alive. Dead?
Something worse.
Deeper. Must look deeper."

[sterile jacinth]

I wonder if it would be similar with rad

[silk dirge]

its probably just silk that comes from her

[sterile jacinth]

Oooh

[silk dirge]

i would imagine silk from a weaver in hallownest wouldnt be able to haunt anyone

[sterile jacinth]

I wonder what would happen if a super infected bug wandered over from hallownest to another kingdom

Would other bugs get infected from that

[lethal burrow]

What's the deal with grandmother herself being asleep because she seems like she's not asleep in every way, except for the fact that she's obviously asleep

[cedar skiff]

this was a scary as fuck lore tablet to come across on first playthrough

iirc its in the marrow so it was like

what the fuck could possibly be happening

wait was that yarnaby who wrote that

[foggy fractal]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Cut_Content_(Silksong)/NPCs#Learned_Pilgrim I don't think so

[unique canopy]

In the finished game it's unconfirmed, but there was a cut wish where someone living in that place would ask you to bring him pilgrim organs to study.
Yeah that guy.

He's still in the game as an enemy with unique Needolin dialogue.

What haunts us?
Song... thread... resonates...
Thread... holds memory...
Whose whispers do I hear?

[craggy smelt]

its a sleeping god though

they're probably still pretty capable even when asleep

[frosty beacon]

i thought this was that random elder upstairs

[foggy fractal]

seems like it

[edgy nebula]

most goated pilgrim, that isnt the covetous pilgrims

[foggy fractal]

again he was supposed to be a npc with a wish, but now is just an enemy

[edgy nebula]

aurafarms in writing form, gets haunted, dies

[cedar skiff]

ah i see im not too familiar with cut content

rip curious pilgrim 💔

[silk dirge]

"thread holds memory" is a cool irl reference bc dont spiders do that irl

they store info in webs

or something like that

[unique canopy]

I hate how much good lore is hidden behind the Needolin. At least with the dreamnail you have a good chance to see it because using it gives you free soul while needolin costs silk with no benefit.

[cedar skiff]

yeah it really pushes your curiosity because a lot of needolin secrets are easy to miss

and you cant get most of the dialogue in full for npcs unless you have enough silk

[visual glacier]

Just look at the wiki or sum

[lethal burrow]

Yeah, but like, why did they only show up when hornet yells at them?

[cedar skiff]

im also still confused about this

the options are like, that it takes a weaver to break the seal but then what about the caged weavers. or maybe she needed to restore her power but how does hornet showing up flip the switch? or is it because she was challenged by another pale being

[visual glacier]

What seal

[cedar skiff]

well whatevers keeping her asleep

[visual glacier]

The song?

[cedar skiff]

seal is just the simplest term to describe it

[unique canopy]

Hornet later describes the cocoon as GMS' protective form, and while it's entirely possible she's just guessing and isn't correct, GMS does spin another cocoon to try and protect Lace from the void, which is where we fight Lost Lace. It's possible GMS is intentionally in the cocoon until she's fully regained her strength and lucidity, and only breaks out when Hornet garamas.

[cedar skiff]

yeah ig

the spell the song whatevs

the power of garama

[unique canopy]

The song has been long gone, according to the Conductor. It's not keeping her fully asleep anymore, but she's still groggy and taking a while to fully wake up.

[visual glacier]

The cradle was designed to keep grand mother silk asleep with a song

Hence the name cradle

[cedar skiff]

okay so what im getting now is she’s actually awake and the cocoon is a protection that breaks when hornet challenges her. so its likely she always operated in this way. “dormant” but pulling the strings. some lovecraftian shit

[visual glacier]

Something like that

There was probably a point in time where she was actually asleep though, still operating

[cedar skiff]

i think her being underwhelmingly weak in combat makes sense then, her whole shtick is controlling from afar

[visual glacier]

Fight difficulty is not canon strength

[cedar skiff]

the choreography is storytelling on its own

[visual glacier]

Khann and his order once held half of pharloom as territory and he’s easy

[cedar skiff]

she literally pulls down rocks in desperation, the attack that does the most damage is when she weaves hornet into her clutches, i think it has some merit

yeah khann isnt that difficult but then again the presumed difficulty lies in his legion that you fight before

[unique canopy]

Go figure, all the bosses in the game that summon waves of adds, and GMS is one where that would be justified lorewise but doesn't

[quick geyser]

Thanks captain obvious

[cedar skiff]

albeit none of that is difficult to play if youre goated

[visual glacier]

How would it be justified? There’s nobody in the cradle

[silk dirge]

canon strength vs gameplay is so funny

canon strength hornet is staying at full health during hhg

and probably takes like 50 hits

[visual glacier]

I don’t think so

Canon hornet got captured by a bunch of envoys

[unique canopy]

Canon Hornet with 70 health masks.

[silk dirge]

i mean she says she thought them clever at first

[visual glacier]

Yeah

[silk dirge]

so probably they set up some sort of crazy trap

[visual glacier]

She said she killed a bunch so I doubt it

[silk dirge]

i mean this is gms intelligence being used shes probably pretty smart

[cedar skiff]

the gms intelligence bluetooth rays reaching all the way to hallownest

it was probably a similar situation as the slab fly trap

[stray fog]

Hornet is strong, but what will she do if 20 bugs jump her at once

[silk dirge]

20 choir clapper gauntlet

without beast crest

i saw someone use beast crest to face tank a bunch of choir clappers

[olive quartz]

so it's strongly implied that lace controlled the silk fly that freed hornet at the start of the game. fourth chorus is controlled by hundreds of silk flies and conveniently happens to wake up the second time we walk past it. could that be lace too?

[ornate pier]

I mean, I think it only triggering after getting the cloak is significant

[silk dirge]

i think maybe fourth chorus recognized drifters cloak and thought hornet was a pinstress

[timber pond]

Fourth Chorus Programed To Look for Floaty red Bug 😂

WHat bug are the pintresses based on again

[craggy smelt]

i go back and forth and how often Lace is controlling silkflies

it makes sense for the Mist

maybe for the rune cage at the start

they also show up in some other places though, so I'm not sure how much is Lace and how much is their own agency

[snow sonnet]

The theory is that they genuienly could be craws

[craggy smelt]

an unholy union twixt craw and stilkin

[timber pond]

I meant IRL bug

[craggy smelt]

oh who can tell

with these fuckin cartoon bugs

[timber pond]

I thought someone found something

[mint stratus]

Unless team cherry says they have a specific bug species in mind I warn against thinking about it too hard, that path leads only to madness

How a wyrm and a plant root can have viable offspring still haunts me

[cedar skiff]

if white lady and greyroot are really the same species then

well

you can imagine

[mint stratus]

don’t do this to me

Have the feeling considering what maskmaker says about hornets growth that pale beings don’t age overtime by natural means

Rather their growth stems from power in some form

[craggy smelt]

it's interesting that he comments on them 'developing'

so any given pale being might not have always had the form and power we currently see them as

we saw transformation with pale wyrm/pale king but MM specifies growth

[hidden crater]

Hollow Knight Silksong has everything but bugs

[craggy smelt]

I did see one bug

I got stuck in the floor

but I got out

[humble peak]

wonderful use of words here thank you

[timber pond]

This thing

it was a Bird pinstress reminded me of lol

[craggy smelt]

i can see it

i love the craw

more bird-bugs

[hidden crater]

What y'all know ab flashbang craw

[craggy smelt]

DLC enemy when

honestly, a 'flashbang' effect might be pretty cool - fill the screen with light flares as a status effect

like freezing or burning, or getting maggotty

doesn't harm you but could make for some tense action

[mint stratus]

Cursed, good job

[olive quartz]

really? i took the mist to be the silk flies acting on their own volition

[lapis creek]

yeah me too

[craggy smelt]

I interpreted that as Lace wanting to give Phantom a duel to the death
especially after seeing that needolin memory of them together

[lapis creek]

although that doesnt make too much sense in retrospect

[craggy smelt]

so she gave Hornet a little help to make it through

[olive quartz]

or maybe not own volition but like. in some sense responding to hornet's magical weaver song

[olive quartz]

huh, i really did not interpret lace as being involved in the whole phantom sequence at all

[lapis creek]

it's a little weird either way cause you either have to explain why the silk flies have this desire or you have to explain why lace never ever speaks of this

theres also the fact that you can do the mist in act 3 when lace is buried but we dont talk about that

[craggy smelt]

shhh

(she sent them before...)

[olive quartz]

lace never speaking of phantom at all is a legitimately odd choice to me. you'd think killing her sibling would trigger some dialogue in the cradle

[craggy smelt]

saving it for Act 4~!

[olive quartz]

WAIT idea. what if the silk flies aren't actively controlled by lace, but she placed them there to guide her through the mist to the exhaust organ

she has demonstrably been there before

[craggy smelt]

I figure she'd probably just take the Citadel VIP elevator to get there

[lapis creek]

i feel like she might have access through the citadel yeah

[olive quartz]

oh fair forgot that exists lmfao

[lapis creek]

although it's locked

[craggy smelt]

she hasn't visited in a while

[olive quartz]

it is also behind like a rock wall

[gloomy widget]

maybe she hasn’t been there for a while

[craggy smelt]

she's not the best family member

[olive quartz]

anywho thoughts on fourth chorus being lace's doing?

[craggy smelt]

pretty sure it was seamstress

[olive quartz]

not disabling fourth chorus initially, why did it reactivate when hornet passed through a second time

[craggy smelt]

aah

I think that was just a coincidence

[olive quartz]

i think it makes some amount of sense that after trying and failing to kill hornet in deep docks lace would try again with a Giant Robot

[gloomy widget]

but if the robot could just turn back on, why didn’t they just send it after the seamstress again?

[olive quartz]

lace has no reason to go after the seamstress

[gloomy widget]

true

[lapis creek]

i feel like she would just fight herself tbh she delights in battle

[craggy smelt]

i wish they hadn't taken the strings off it, it'd be cooler if it was a big puppet

[blissful harbor]

the pin on top (presumably keeping it powered off) was removed, it was intentional

[olive quartz]

removed before hornet returns?

[craggy smelt]

it's still there when it reactivates, it just going flying off

now, if it had been pulled off by a silken string, then that'd be something

for now, it just really seems like coincidence

or Hornet's proximity, maybe Seamstress spiked it and then steered clear

yuck, a bug on my screen irl

[olive quartz]

it is pretty funny to imagine seamstress tiptoeing away while hornet is gathering spine cores to reactivate the giant robot to trap her but i mean. Why

[craggy smelt]

as a goof

[olive quartz]

i mean that suggests by itself that it had been previously disabled but some other influence has reactivated it yeah?

i think it's reasonable to draw a distinction between the silk flies just doing their usual thing (as in the automatons in cogwork core) and the silk flies being conducted by lace

[craggy smelt]

dunno, there's not even really the slightest indication of another influence
maybe it was just proximity - Seamstress spiked it to disable it and just never went close to it again (she never took her pin back after all)
then Hornet triggered it by getting too close
maybe the Silkflies within sensed an enemy, or were weakened and had to recover (who knows how they work...?)

[olive quartz]

i would also note that the other choruses in the cauldron seem pretty deactivated until hornet plays music, when their eyes light up in the same way as fourth chorus's do (although they don't move, presumably due to being restrained in their little chambers)

[hidden crater]

I once had a dream where fourth chorus would follow you if you tried to do the skip

[craggy smelt]

follows you back to Bonebottom

"Pilby, nuuu-"

[hidden crater]

Imagine being so mad that you got skipped so you follow your target across the entire god damn land

[dense willow]

Possibly BC hornet now has the cloak with spines, similar to the pinstress's and (presumably) seamstress's cloak

[dense willow]

This is the kind of misinformation that would be very funny to tell new players

[opal magnet]

Ok so
Based off crest here's a crazy idea:
A mask is a way to impose a crest upon yourself, as crests as tied to identities, mindset, etc.
It's why the Grimm troupe is controlled and seem to lose their memory upon losing masks;identity lost.
And heck, with that, game over makes a ton of sense too: if you lose your identity fully and are even a bit void...

[visual glacier]

I think the “void” you see from hornets cocoons are her regrets

[opal magnet]

Yeah
Hornet just falls apart to silk
The Knight however....
It does make perfect sense

[visual glacier]

Idk what your point is supposed to be with the game over thing

[opal magnet]

Moreso with the knight, how the void is a sort of absence of emotion
And identity

[visual glacier]

That’s not really how the void works

That’s pale kings perception of the void

[opal magnet]

In its effects it seems to be
To those that lose themself in its vicinity

[visual glacier]

Void can wreak havoc on bugs soul

[opal magnet]

Which is caused by usually, the whirlwind of emotion in the void
And thus loss of self, succumbing to void

[visual glacier]

What

[opal magnet]

Not completely gone, since the void retains, but a mere shade of what was.

[visual glacier]

What is your source for this

Shades are unique to vessels

[opal magnet]

Well of course
Those without godhood (higher being) pieces within, do become consumed by it

[visual glacier]

No

Higher beings can be consumed by void

[opal magnet]

However a further theory I have is that they still have shades, just aren't strong enough to materialize them
The void is made of something after all?

[visual glacier]

The void is made of void

That’s all we know

Something about regrets

[opal magnet]

Afk, I'll be back in 4 hours when I think of a counter

[visual glacier]

Bad theory overall 1/10

Find more evidence

[lethal burrow]

...military power is not the same as personal ability, Alexander the great might've been good at what he did, but I don't think he could kill a hippo

[visual glacier]

Yeah

[timber pond]

This is a pretty interesting dialogue

[visual glacier]

Where is this? Shaman chapel?

[timber pond]

you can get dilouge from each crests prior barer if you play needolin

For shaman crest, it seems, They are obsessed with Hoarding Every kind of power.

you can also hear Whispering when you play it

[visual glacier]

Yeah also wtf are those recipes

[timber pond]

I think "Flickering Flame" Is some kind of recipe that Results in Wisps.

[visual glacier]

Perhaps

It makes sense considering the hunters journal entry for wisps but we have so little information about both parties involved

[cedar skiff]

do you happen to have the dialogue for the other crests

im curious now

[visual glacier]

hollowknight.wiki/w/Needolin_Locations

Go wild

[cedar skiff]

oh awesome

i thought itd be under crests

[visual glacier]

The reapers are the former farmers of greymoors fields

Btw

[cedar skiff]

its fun to have more lore on that

the farmer crest

[solar badge]

Why does hornet call mr mushroom a herald?

[honest whale]

why hollow knight is hollow

[cobalt coyote]

He was called the herald in hollow knight too

[solar badge]

Yeah but why

[timber pond]

Because he heralds an ages end

"he would not care to see anything else"

I think hes so long lived, that he only cares about the "journey" each world goes through only when in conflict

[whole holly]

guys i have theory about Palestag

it is Cloverstag touched by Pale Being, but which one, GMS, White Lady and Pale King are ruled out so we have too start looking at unconfirmed Pale Beings

it could be Fayforn , it gifts creatures and Faydown cloak and fayforn fluff texture looks like Palestags fluff

[whole holly]

vague visual similarities are there

Palestag tail does look like Fayforn's texture tbh

i admit theory is flawed because of incomplete evidence, but it is interesting explanation of why Palestag is Pale Touched, when other evidence comes up Theory will either be confirmed or denied, like if Palestag was touched by actual Pale Being and if Fayforn is Pale or even Higher Being, right now it is closest explanation we have considering GMS , WL and PK couldn't have "Paletouched" it, but Fayforn is closest contender for another known pale being if we don't include Sylphean Slug but neither of them are confirmed

[eager ermine]

so u think tc just made the shade lord flash for a lil during sotv to kinda keep dream no more and embrace the void both semi canon

[pearl thunder]

all endings are fully canon

[heavy gyro]

Not all are canon to silksong which is what that message is about

[pearl thunder]

All are canon to silksong

[heavy gyro]

THK and sealed siblings literally cannot happen

[eager ermine]

but how would the knight in shade form pull up if the knight is also containing infection

[whole holly]

compared to normal cloverstags

[pearl thunder]

wdym "pull up"?

[eager ermine]

like it appears to save hornet in sister of the void

[heavy gyro]

Yeah it was probably left ambiguous to make them both plausible

[valid coral]

Arguably THK could be canon only to Weaver Queen

Hornet could be referring to PK in the "gods can fall" dialogue

[eager ermine]

That would be pretty symbolic

[stray fog]

If one of the endings has the knight showing up, that means that the knight is not in the black egg during the events of silksong, regardless of whether the knight shows up in weaver queen or not

[valid coral]

In a save where you just don't continue to act 3 the knight could either be in the black egg or post DNM

[eager ermine]

the all endings are canon thing is just a Reddit comment from tc like years ago right

[valid coral]

Schrodingers vessel

[eager ermine]

they might’ve change their minds

[heavy gyro]

Hornet would probably know that the knight would fail, so it would be weird for her to just decide to not return to hallownest when she has the chance

So thk ending is unlikely to be canon

[pearl thunder]

In THK and Sealed siblings, if the seals are broken, it's possible TK could then go on to kill the radiance

[valid coral]

The reasoning still checks out in my mind

[stray fog]

That would imply that some event during act 3 freed the knight from the black egg

But that's not true as far as we know

[valid coral]

GMS would immediately be on her ass

[heavy gyro]

It's baseless

[pearl thunder]

it's the simplest explanation that reconciles TC's statements on HK ending canonicity

[valid coral]

I'm not implying that, I'm just saying that for Weaver queen (and twisted child) there is nothing that outright disproves THK as being a valid ending

-# a statement that was said 8 years ago in a reddit AMA so fuck if I know

[heavy gyro]

That statement was before godmaster, and all endings can be canon just not to silksong specifically

[cedar skiff]

the thing is etv sucks and dnm doesnt

[valid coral]

Silksong can be a continuation of DNM, ETV or THK

[pearl thunder]

i would agree with disregarding the statement if it was impossible to follow all endings, but it's reasonably possible without a whole lot of gymnastics

[valid coral]

I don't see the sealed siblings continuation though

[eager ermine]

or the embrace the void flower ending is canon and the white lady just somehow gave the everbloom wit shadelord in it

[cedar skiff]

silksong continuing after etv would arguably weaken some aspects of silksongs story

[stray fog]

Yeah but team cherry isn't making a multiverse, so its not like each silksong ending will have its own canon hk endings

[valid coral]

Through your actions and progressing the story you choose one of those endings to be canon to your save

[heavy gyro]

Id say that the knight defeating the radiance after THK ending is doing a lot of gymnastics

[valid coral]

It's less so "this is canon to x and this is canon to y" more so that both endings can be canon to this specific ending

In reality it's up to player interpretation

[pearl thunder]

I mean not really, if it's freed it's not unlikely it would continue on its journey to defeat the radiance

[stray fog]

What I'm trying to say is that if the knight appears in the abyss in just one ending (Sotv), that means that they were in the abyss for every other ending too, we were just not told that because there was no reason to do so

[valid coral]

Good point but I still think the ETV, DNM ambiguity is intentional

[stray fog]

I agree on that

[heavy gyro]

DNM ETV ambiguity unfortunately means no playable THK probably

[stray fog]

Weren't they freed from the black egg in etv

[pearl thunder]

thk was, yeah

[past cypress]

THK attacked the Knight due to the Radiance, it's likely the same kind of aggression/control happened to the Knight

[pearl thunder]

That's because the radiance had begun to degrade THK's mind, that wouldn't be the case with TK for a long time

[past cypress]

Honestly I think Weaver Queen being a Knightless scenario kinda fits. Hornet doesn't do all the helping needed for Silk and Soul because she's still as emotionally distant as in Hollow Knight before the fight in Kingdom's Edge and their talk in Deepnest

[past cypress]

And a long time would be needed for someone to break them out

[pearl thunder]

I mean not really

the seal breaking bugs from pharloom could show up shortly after, there's nothing preventing them

and the time between when THK originally sealed rad, and the time of the game is enough for things from when THK was sealed to be called "ancient"

[past cypress]

What seal breaking bugs

[pearl thunder]

The ones seen in the SS trailer, and the beginning cutscene of the game

That breaks the seal on the carriage hornet is held in

[pale pier]

is skarrsinger a higher being

[cedar skiff]

the silkflies?

that was almost certainly lace who has shown an ability to conduct them

[past cypress]

And those have no reason to free TK

[azure yew]

no, just has a comparable level of power

[terse warren]

Hornet says that "In her prime her skill could match mine" but even then Hornet isn't a higher being except in WQ

[azure yew]

fair. similar power to a half-higher being

[terse warren]

I don't think that's a real term but

It renders the idea

Only HBs we see in this game are GMS, WQHornet and Lord of Shades

Maybe whatever the Twisted Child becomes in the ending

[stray fog]

It absorbed Hornet and gms so its gotta be a higher being

[terse warren]

Not necessarily

[stray fog]

Its likely

[terse warren]

We don't know what the Bud actually does

For all we know what hatches from the roots isn't a higher being but 500 Wardenflies

[craggy smelt]

Hornet would hate that

[terse warren]

Hornet would hate if even a single Wardenfly was aided by the birth of whatever the Twisted Child is

[pale pier]

lol

twisted child is grey root right

[frigid belfry]

like a child thing

we dont know how roots work exactly

[silk yew]

is white lady same as greyroot?

[frigid belfry]

implied similar species

[pale pier]

so is the white lady like

a pale version

[lilac hedge]

When white lady injects you with a parasite

[frigid belfry]

probably

[frigid belfry]

not all roots have to be parasitic in nature

[silk yew]

my headcannon is that all weavers used flying sword thingies(first sinners,gms) and the ones widow used are the ones shes stabbed with

dam this chat is dead

[silk yew]

yup

i mean gms has different ones

[frosty gate]

What's the topic today?

[silk yew]

damn

[craggy smelt]

Sinner's blades are real, they glow with runes and silk when attacking and then drop to the ground

kinda like Silk's blades

they're as real as anything in that fight, at any rate

[fossil ledge]

The difference seems to be that Widow's nails are imbued with runes, while GMS' nails aren't

[dapper willow]

I have a hunch that Hornet might be biased against pale beings but I just can't prove it yet

[swift oracle]

whats the difference between pale and regular higher beings again

[dapper willow]

They glow white

[swift oracle]

Is that it

[pearl thunder]

yep

[solar badge]

Is mr mushroom a god or is he just invincible

[unreal estuary]

Probably just invincible, or like the other shrumnal characters he can't be hurt on his cap

He's also never been in active combat so perhaps he can be killed

[solar badge]

But i mean he still can die if not invincible of old age

[unreal estuary]

yeah

but he's probably like Hornet, someone who isn't fully a higher being but is incredibly long-lived

[vestal swan]

He says that everything else dies around him and he just moves on instead

By his own words he's immortal

[solar badge]

Thats creepy and cool

[vestal swan]

And both characters have hit him without him taking damage, although it wasn't intending to hurt him in either case they basically just slapped him

Caps and shells may fall to dust but Mr mushroom readjusts
(Caps and shells being normal mushrooms and bugs)

[solar badge]

Dang well thanks

[vestal swan]

Also he has a track record of showing up at like literally the worst time for a kingdom and he always survives and moves on

[solar badge]

I think i remember hornet saying smth abt him bringing destruction to wherever he arrives

[vestal swan]

I don't remember that but she was wondering how he always knows when stuff is going to end and he basically says he can see a bunch of the possibilities of the here and now and predict what's going to come based on it

[solar badge]

Makes sense

[unreal estuary]

"Hornet: As one who has seen so much, tell me simply, do you believe my efforts in vain?

Me? Certainly you can ask, but I cannot provide good answer. I've no mind for outcomes. Always my vision is too clouded by the present."

he actually kind of says the opposite of that, he can't predict anything because he's too busy looking at things

[vestal swan]

Yeah but he knows something's going to happen he just don't know which one

He shows up when shit's going down

Like he knows something is happening thats going to change the region

[craggy smelt]

she's pretty uncharitable towards her father, and is reluctant to take over GMS' role even though it's appealing to her in some respects
and she speaks of pale beings unfavorably with Green Prince

[vestal swan]

Kind of funny though, that she doesn't seem to have this attitude towards White Lady, who of the king and queen was the one to just move in and take territory of somebody else

[limpid summit]

I’m of the mind that he is a higher being

[stray fog]

Mr mushroom is like the watchers in marvel

[limpid summit]

He doesn’t fit the other particulars entirely but the only actual qualification for a higher being is existing above all others which he does

[craggy smelt]

I can see why she might have hard feelings towards Pale King - seemed like he wasn't very involved in her life
absent father, wasn't there for her or her mother, etc.

[limpid summit]

Like tc purposefully kept the definition vague so if they introduced a HB without like essence or followers they could still call it one

[vestal swan]

Yeah but her complaints are inconsistent because it's about his void robots being bad when they actually did their job

[vestal swan]

Like Nyleth
And they still unexplored lifeblood creature that is still equally possible something that was just feeding on it from the beginning

[limpid summit]

Nyleth
Alright brother slow down

I’m kidding

Who knows maybe

[craggy smelt]

her uncharitability could stem from her resentment towards him
also she does make those comments after she just saw the Void blow up an entire kingdom, she might have doubts about anyone's ability to really control it

[limpid summit]

She’s treated differently than the other hearts for sure

[stray fog]

I've asked this question in this channel before, but what's up with all the chapels?

Like who are they worshipping there

[vestal swan]

It still comes off as someone who didn't pay attention, like yeah the void can destroy stuff, PK didn't use it to destroy stuff and he didn't have his kingdom destroyed by void either. It's like did hornet play the first game?

[limpid summit]

Probably not like a uniform thing let’s see

Wanderer reaper and beast right

Chapel of the beast might have been like worshipping the elder Beastfly corpse as like a nature thing

[vestal swan]

The broken one at the beginning of the game might have been void related or just a snail shaman controlled temple based on learning spells
Wanderer, honestly no idea weird concepts to have a chapel for that
Reaper could be like a religious figurehead kind of thing, maybe they had some authority
And what egg said about beast tbh

[craggy smelt]

almost like she's being unfair towards PK because of unresolved resentment towards him
like some kind of flawed, emotional character instead of a perfectly rational and logical one
(which is gross)

[limpid summit]

Is the wanderers chapel the one in bonegrave

Maybe it was like worship of the pilgrimage before they set out

[stray fog]

I still don't feel satisfied with that explanation, but I don't have any better ideas either

[vestal swan]

Yeah it just doesn't fit because she's like a bajillion years old and that's like the kind of stupid resentment you would think a teenager has, like oh my God my dad is so dumb all his void robots suck! Meanwhile they're doing their job perfectly fine she just doesn't get to hang out with him. Also she comes from an ending where the first games kingdom was put to rest, she didn't get the message to let go

[dapper willow]

They seem to be about remembering the dead of certain peoples
If the needolin dialouge is anything to go by

[cedar skiff]

???

[stray fog]

What if the reason for her thinking the void constructs are stupid is that they're the reason for the pale king's death, as theorized before

[vestal swan]

They aren't

She might not even know what his current state is, she never has that conversation with TK in the first game

[stray fog]

I forgot that Hornet can't go to the white palace

[cedar skiff]

its almost like silksong is her coming to terms with her standing guard over a dead hallownest for god knows who long and the resentment for her father and his plan that built up over that time. you just dont let go of all that after such a long time just because it finally solved itself thanks to basically a miracle

[craggy smelt]

might be a little bit of self-recrimination going on, considering she just inadvertedly blew up pharloom with a Void nuke

[stray fog]

You're right

[cedar skiff]

this also

yall see hornet too one dimensionaly 💔

[dapper willow]

I like that interpretation

[craggy smelt]

even after a billion years, Hornet retains
-her love of fuzzy things
-daddy issues

[cedar skiff]

“...Indeed, spider... So much pain you must have passed to speak our hope so simply...
For her you become... who knows clear our desire, and has seen full the darkness beneath our house []”

[vestal swan]

But she stops doing that in the first game when she decided to help TK? Do we think she still stayed there protecting it from Invaders and doing nothing else?
The point is she's supposedly hanging on to this because of resentment for her father not taking care of her? That was the earlier idea anyway. Because while his plan was stupid it wasn't messing with void that fucked it up. And as far as we know nobody told her to go protect the kingdom and hunt down vessels, she took it upon herself to the best of our knowledge, it certainly wasn't him who ran away that told her to do it

[cedar skiff]

i dont see where the resentment for her father is because he didnt take care of her part is coming from, could you elaborate?

[vestal swan]

And if it was white lady that suggested it that just leans even more into the unbalanced hatred of pale things

I don't either somebody else said it not me

[cedar skiff]

ohhh

[vestal swan]

I'm saying there's no real reason for her to have weird resentment towards her father, and especially to discount his accomplishments when they were neither the problem or failures (throwing shade at the void robots)

Vessels didn't work but they didn't make it worse

[stray fog]

Maybe she hates him because of all her siblings that he killed
(this is not implied anywhere though)

[craggy smelt]

I was speculating that some of Hornet's uncharitability towards Pale King might stem from his absence from her life
it isn't stated in game, but it wouldn't be the first time in fiction such a thing has happened

[olive quartz]

assuming hallownest has been dead for longer than it was ever alive, hornet probably hardly remembers hallownest at its prime, or if she does at all it'd be as a blip

[mild adder]

from her conversation with pale lady it doesn't seem she hates him
the worst we know is her calling him a fool for thinking he could control the void

[vestal swan]

That suggested by white lady in the first game and by the second game's events becomes even more possible

[cedar skiff]

i think theres a lot in silksong that suggests that despite being old and wise hornet has still opportunity for change. (ex. mask maker,
chapel maid)

you have to imagine that hornet stood guard over hallownest for ages just for the infection to be solved in such a short timespan for her. then she was (implied anyway) shortly after taken to the kingdom that she apparently has this weird connection to.

i think hornet built up a lot of resentment for the pale king over the time hallownest was infected because to her the plan had basically failed. it only worked out of nowhere after a very long time. in silksong she works through that. and the exchange with white lady/red memory in general is a turning point.

[olive quartz]

yeah idk where the idea of weird resentment comes from. hornet seems to have a gripe with anyone who tries to harness the void

[vestal swan]

Hornet joining the steel troupe option

[mild adder]

the convo with White lady convinced me she does not hold resentment to any of her parental figures and actually understands what they were gunning for and just going "i know your game, and i will do it too, but my way."

[olive quartz]

consider that the journal entry for the wingmoulds is gotten in red memory, which heavily involves the snail shamans, who damn near destroyed pharloom trying to use void

[craggy smelt]

you lose a few million siblings in sacrifice to it in a failed endeavor and suddenly you're all resentful

[cedar skiff]

her facing the void is also symbolic of her accepting the other side of her familial ties

[olive quartz]

LMFAO theres also the 'my father tried to harness the void into his own children'

that alone would justify it if she showed any resentment. which she hardly does

[cedar skiff]

“[] that void with which our family is forever linked.”

[mild adder]

i just want to remind everyone, from the first game, Hornet does not seem to be having any form of attachment to the vessels

she actively hunts them and kills them

[cedar skiff]

theres a lot to be nitpicked about hornets characterisation but her arc is executed near perfectly

[vestal swan]

Something something pity for vessels

[olive quartz]

...and then she saves us from ash for no reason

[craggy smelt]

I will say that her largely negative view of the Void does clash with a line in the first game about it giving her hope for change

[cedar skiff]

it takes real talent to write a good character arc for an immortal character that has already lived lifetimes

[mild adder]

someone didn't play the game

[vestal swan]

There's also the part where she agrees with mask maker that ignoring the potential of eating GMS she is about to change, and if she doesn't eat GMS there's still another change in the future possible

[olive quartz]

hornet is shown coming to respect the knight specifically over the course of hollow knight

[stray fog]

The knight already got so far into the path to usurping thk that it would be undesirable for it to die just like that

[olive quartz]

and tbh probably the other vessels by extension

[craggy smelt]

I wonder, if things follow up from ETV, does Hornet have any idea what role the Void or TK actually played in Hallownest?
as far as she knows, TK goes missing, the Infection vanishes without explanation, and then Hollow Knight stumbles out and surprises her

[vestal swan]

You would assume she would investigate since thk came out of the door behind her alive and uninfected

But there's just a few gaps that make it seem like she doesn't know shit about it

[olive quartz]

or in DNM the knight's shell cracks and for all she knows it is dead

[mild adder]

HOrnet helps the knight because he is the best chance to fix things, sure she might have come to respect Ghost
but there is literally nothing to indicate she cares about the rest of them.

[limpid summit]

No and that’s what Summoned Savior implies EtV is canon she probably can guess as she has some dialogue about accepting the void within yourself

[craggy smelt]

Hornet: What happened? Explain!
Hollow Knight: ...
Hornet: ...shit.

[cedar skiff]

another underrated thing in the mask maker hornet conversation is that she asks of him to read her. its pretty interesting

[craggy smelt]

at least in that case, she probably has some inkling that the Knight and the Void played a part, it was all right there with her in the egg

[olive quartz]

fair

[cedar skiff]

like those mask makers must have some crazy ball knowledge if hornet explicitly ask for a reading of her when she has denied many characters before that to pry

[stray fog]

The void was leaking out of the godseeker in a seemingly violent way so maybe the void did something that drew hornet's attention

[vestal swan]

Yeah weird mask maker sight is basically reading souls, I wonder if that's something you can be aware of and like hide like being read by the dreamnail

[olive quartz]

i interpreted mask maker sight as reading crests

or i mean. Masks

[vestal swan]

Well crests aura and soul ( not the energies) souls are all basically the same thing

Also essence but we don't get any more essence in this game so

[cedar skiff]

theres barely any characters that resist needolin too that shit mogs dream nail

[dapper willow]

I wish we got essence 😔

[cedar skiff]

me when i trek back to hallownest to force midwife to sing me a little song

[vestal swan]

Except for its ability to break the veil being super weak

[craggy smelt]

hornet mentions essence as a component of crests, but I'm not sure if that's dream essence
it isn't capitalized
but Hornet doesn't capitalize void either a bunch

it bugs me

[vestal swan]

See the thing with it is I don't think you can really resist the needolin, it's resonating with the silk and the silk could be carrying memories, like most of the silk isn't even attached to the creature's mind you know, because silk has sold in it and soul can carry weird ass information from all kinds of sources

[dapper willow]

Hornet is the kinda gal who would call you __f__red.

[olive quartz]

it is really funny that hornet is only ever able to enter specific strong memories and only then using a magic song some shamans taught her. while the knight is just going around tearing through the veil between dreams and the waking world with abandon

[vestal swan]

Magic crowbar versus a very specific screwdriver

[cedar skiff]

yeah id imagine mask makers reading is also some soul bullshit then

[heavy gyro]

Does Mr mushroom sing to needolin just because he can

[cedar skiff]

even though he describes it as looking at the mask

i know what youre doing.

[vestal swan]

Well givin his ability to basically see a bunch of possible events he might have just been waiting there to see if you were going to show up and play music with him and the bird

[stray fog]

The old penitent's singing seems to be consensual too

[craggy smelt]

mr M thinks in rhymes, he takes any chance to sing

[vestal swan]

I mean most of these creatures are full of or coated in silk and it's resonating with the needle music, I would say for some of them it's like they're being freed for a moment but like in the lace fight it's like she's being tortured because she's made of the shit

[cedar skiff]

i find it interesting the void tendrils do react to needolin but playing it against lost lace doesnt do shit

[vestal swan]

It's like taking control of the puppet strings not really reading stuff passively

[dapper willow]

I think all the npc's just sing because they want to

[cedar skiff]

pavo sings his ass off all the time anyway 💔

[vestal swan]

Skynx, I don't know what's wrong with him though

Either he's really bad at singing or he's got silk in places that hurt him when she plays music

[dapper willow]

she has her earplugs in

[craggy smelt]

their reaction is more like getting pissed off
I wonder if the Void hates music as much as it does light...?
if its as much silence as it is darkness...

[cedar skiff]

i think since lost lace is supposed to parallel the hollow knight fight anyway it makes sense

if only we had cut lost lace needolin dialogue 💔

[vestal swan]

I mean if you had magical strings inside you suddenly vibrate with the power of music I think you'd be a little annoyed too

Is there any needolin from that fight

Imagine we got GMS apologizing to lace the whole time

[cedar skiff]

i think the wordless act of apology works really well. im just fiending for any extra lace characterisation

[dapper willow]

team cherry add more lace dialouge in dlc

you don't even need to do anything
She already shows up at a lot of different places
Just add more text

[cedar skiff]

tbh that encounter if you skip the deep docks fight should happen always with unique dialogue

[vestal swan]

Well if we get act 4 she will be alive to talk

[heavy gyro]

Wouldn't gms' hair resonate with needolin if it was silk related

[dapper willow]

YES

[vestal swan]

I wonder if lace would be considered tainted by the steel city, it wasn't on purpose

[dapper willow]

she is too strong for the needolin

[vestal swan]

I mean she's literally always controlling silk, I think stopping her hair from resonating with a tiny one string guitar is not hard

[cedar skiff]

if you backtrack to the abyss in act 4 you should be able to get another silkheart 🤔

[craggy smelt]

that is a question I have - are the Steel Assassins just coming after Hornet for Void crimes, or is all of Pharloom in their crosshairs?

[vestal swan]

But that silkheart will be at the bottom of the lake, and probably absorbed by a random tendril or TK since they like to eat things and turn it into their own abilities

[heavy gyro]

Why isn't the steel city targeting hallownest for void crimes

Jinn is doing nothing

[craggy smelt]

not yet

[vestal swan]

Cuz PK's already dead sharpe killed him

[frigid belfry]

whats terrifying is that zi says they "hunt" higher beings

ggs for the third game

[cedar skiff]

it floats up like a little peeble

[frigid belfry]

street tiers doing 3 masks

[vestal swan]

She doesn't say higher being she just says higher which doesn't necessarily mean higher being it could just be anything above a normal bug like a shaman

[frigid belfry]

"those higher" almost always refers to higher beings

[vestal swan]

It could just mean anything above a non-speaking beast too

[craggy smelt]

she describes hornet as half-bug half-higher

[cedar skiff]

that last part though me when i boot up hollow knight after beating silksong and can suddenly puppeteer elderbug

[craggy smelt]

and pale

[frigid belfry]

implied they hunt those with hb lineage

[vestal swan]

!wiki zi

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Steel_Seer_Zi

[frigid belfry]

"And you... a creature in half... Pale It... Bug It... old... stubborn... alone... You too are observed. "

[craggy smelt]

Recall, the fate of those who defy... Even you higher... Especially you higher...

[dapper willow]

That pretty nuts tbh

[frigid belfry]

she mentions hornet being observed, and then calls out hb's specifically

[craggy smelt]

steel masters can humble pale beings, they police void usage...
grey beats black and white

[frigid belfry]

city of steel will be a nightmare

[dark osprey]

Random .ss quention
Is lace a women?or are they genderless?
Cuz i think they are meant to be read as a women figure,but they are artificial life like vessels (which are characterized as genderless) and Made entirely out of silk

[vestal swan]

She says you higher/ half pale separately
She does not call her a half higher

And again this context could just be separating her from my mindless beast, why would you bother punishing a beast for disobeying

[frigid belfry]

made to be a daughter (by gms)

its hard to assign silk a gender though

[vestal swan]

GMS had an obsession wanting daughters so she made them specifically to be daughters

She mutated as far as we can tell only female weavers as well

[dark osprey]

I think conscience Is good enough to assign them as women tbh
I had forgotten that detail.which dialogue shows that?

[heavy gyro]

Always bet on steel wyrm

[ornate pier]

Lace is like definitively female phantom is unknown and controversial

[frigid belfry]

grand father steel

[dark osprey]

Wait,does that apply to weavers as well?did gms go around only ascending female bugs?

Or does she just have the power to ascend a bugs gender?

[frosty gate]

What's the topic again

[frigid belfry]

what exaclty gms did to the pharlids she ascended

imo it sounds like she just ascended female pharlids

no indication of gender change

!wiki widow

[oak meadow]

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/Widow

Hollow Knight Wiki

Widow

Widow is a main boss in Hollow Knight: Silksong. Her defeat grants the Needolin ability, and completes the SAVE: The Threadspun Town Objective, freeing Haunted Bellhart.

Location

Bellhart, accessed through Shellwood.

​

Combat Values

Health

360

Damage Modifiers

1    1    1    1    1

Reward

Needolin
Breaks the curse ensnaring Bellhart.

Journal Kills

1

​

Miscellaneous

Gender

Female

Voice

Lauren Koopowitz

Theme

Widow (Phase 1)
Widow 2nd Phase (Phase 3)

Singing

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/File:Widow_Sing.ogg

https://hollowknight.wiki/w/File:Widow_Sing_02.ogg

[dark osprey]

Yeah ig that makes More sense

[frosty gate]

I mean, to know if that was the case we would have to know if Pharlids were all female or not. I don't think it's that relevant

We don't even know how they reproduce

They could be asexual for all we know

[craggy smelt]

like those lizards

[cedar skiff]

the only weavers i could see being male are the ones that are weaver in part

[stray fog]

Are there any irl spiders that use parthenogenesis

[vestal swan]

The only things I can think of are like flat worms and I think one type of scorpion

For bugs anyway

[frosty gate]

Didn't research much for this but i found the "Triaeris stenaspis"

Although people are apparently not sure of it

[stray fog]

Ig she only ascended female pharlids

That makes the most sense

[frigid belfry]

was the pale stag real?

and did its death actually cause the fall of verdania

it doesnt seem like the citadel did anything

[sterile jacinth]

They polluted the water sources Verdania relied on (bilewater)

Verdania died a slow painful death

[unique canopy]

The other prince trying to make a deal to prevent their collapse also meant the land was without at least one of its princes for leadership, and who knows when Green was captured.

[zenith quartz]

Hey genuine question how did the Weaver knew hornet is going to make it

[sterile jacinth]

I’m thinking their despair with the land dying also sort of made its death faster so it was like a vicious cycle

[unique canopy]

But either Verdania collapsed under his sole leadership, or he was taken prisoner soon after and they collapsed due to having no leadership

[stray fog]

Which weaver?

[zenith quartz]

Weavers

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think they did. They threw a ton of things at the wall grasping for a solution. They wanted Hornet to free them and Herrah told her to do what she wanted. Hornet just happened to run into gms

Their desperate plan ended up working. Too late tho. Most of them are dead

[frigid belfry]

they didnt lmao

[zenith quartz]

I mean they helped us a lot

[unique canopy]

The plan was for them to scatter until somebody was strong enough to challenge GMS, with the dead Weavers remaining behind to offer their powers to whoever that somebody was. The Hallownest side wanted Hornet to be that person, but from the Pharloom side, they had no foreknowledge that it would be Hornet, just that it would be someone.

[frigid belfry]

they hoped their plan of creating a weaver/hb hybrid would work someday

eva was their prototype

[sterile jacinth]

Yea their plan worked out somehow

[stray fog]

I think the weavers wanted Hornet to become the weaver queen

• one of the desires of the weavers was "queen" according to herrah
• the weavers said that they hoped someone with enough strength could liberate them in the future
• why else would they offer their ancestral arts to hornet

[sterile jacinth]

I’m sure the hallownest weavers were pretty dang stoked that Herrah got a deal to have a child with wyrm heritage

[zenith quartz]

Daughter of hollownest isn't as daughter of distant land?

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think queen was necessarily their plan just her defeating gms

[unique canopy]

The "daughter of a distant land" could've been any Weaverspawn according to the plan, from any land, because the Weavers were fleeing everywhere. The ones who remained in Pharloom had no foreknowledge who that daughter wouldd be or where they came from.

[sterile jacinth]

Honestly I think weaver queen would present different problems

Yeah. Desperate plan they really hoped would work out

[stray fog]

Why did herrah specifically want a wyrm child if she didn't want to impose any expectations on Hornet. Couldn't she just have had any child

[unique canopy]

Unless you want to say that the Weavers all bound in the spires are the Weavers who left Hallownest to return to Pharloom, but that would be unsubstantiated headcanon.

[sterile jacinth]

Who knows. Maybe she changed her mind once Hornet was born and realized she didn’t want her to be a pawn for her scheming sisters

[stray fog]

I saw a post that had figured out who all the weavers in the spires were

[frigid belfry]

hard for weavers to have children, so perhaps a hb male could make it possible

[sterile jacinth]

Hard but not impossible

I’m sure the other weavers were very excited about hornets birth

Also there’s a theory that the little weavers are spawn of weavers and the native deepnest spiders

[zenith quartz]

So they just want a Weaver to return or a new one to stand for gms?

[sterile jacinth]

I think they just want gms gone

They can’t afford to be picky

[stray fog]

They wanted gms gone while they were alive
They didn't account for gms hunting them down

[sterile jacinth]

I wonder if gms noticed the mummified weavers and if she does why doesn’t she seem to care

[frosty gate]

You mean the burial spires?

[sterile jacinth]

Yea

[frosty gate]

They're dead, what was she going to do

[sterile jacinth]

Destroy the spires

[unique canopy]

I think the Weavers who remained knew it would take long enough that they would be dead. Those spires are pretty deliberate, and the clawline one ended up having the Underworks built around it and partially collapsed.

[sterile jacinth]

I wonder if she knew they existed

[frosty gate]

I don't see the point to it, I don't think she didn't know their existance but she probably didn't care

[sterile jacinth]

Ok yea fair enough

[frosty gate]

It's God's dilemma thing, or whatever is it called

[unique canopy]

If she was able to sense them then she would've known they were already dead and wouldn't seen any point messing with the graves. If she wasn't then all she'd know, if anything, is that there were Weaver effigies in various places around Pharloom, and again she likely wouldn't care.

[frosty gate]

She seems to see a lot of what Hornet does and has control over Pharloom so it could be she's somewhat omniscient/omnipotent

[frosty gate]

Exactly

[stray fog]

She can also sense weavers and their descendants

[frosty gate]

But she doesnt seem to care about some stuff

[unique canopy]

The dead are useless to her. Stone statues are useless to her. Hornet is neither dead nor a statue.

[lone folio]

Probably yeah

[spark valve]

there was a pale stag but it wasn't like what we see

[lone folio]

Atleast in some way

[twin dragon]

Red memory kinda indicates that they knew she'd get hunted down eventually

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah. They’re desperate. Throwing shit at the wall

[spark valve]

red memory doesn't indicate they anticipated the events of silksong specifically, just that hornet would be a target for her powers

[twin dragon]

That's what im saying

[twin dragon]

The weavers that were in charge of the citadel seemingly hoped that the citadel would keep gms sealed forever

however, that doesn't entirely solve their issue

[sterile jacinth]

They knew it wouldn’t work forever

[lone folio]

Oh where do we get to know that?

[twin dragon]

they still have the burden of the maniac silk mother god being alive

[spark valve]

they specifically thought it actually would it wasn't just the ideal outcome it was the one they thought was attained

[twin dragon]

Yeah

They still had the burden of gms existing

[sterile jacinth]

Mostly just context. Still/bilewater is a huge source of water

And present day Verdania is dry

[lone folio]

Ah

[twin dragon]

The citadel on god did everything

or almost everything

[sterile jacinth]

Fr

[twin dragon]

since most regions are connected to it in some way

[edgy nebula]

didnt do shit to karak

[twin dragon]

Maybe it did

maybe it didn't

we dont get enough info to know

[spark valve]

the nefarious vile crabs in memorium:

[edgy nebula]

damn those fucking crabs…

[twin dragon]

big coral

[sterile jacinth]

I think the stone citadel being built stopped their water sources

[twin dragon]

Eh

bilewater was specifically polluted seemingly by the organ

[edgy nebula]

not sure if the stone citadel had any water

[sterile jacinth]

I’m talking about Karak

[twin dragon]

which i assume didnt exist until the high caste took over and industrialized it

Maybe

khann talks about "pale light"

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah for sure

[twin dragon]

so it could've been the haunting or gms

[edgy nebula]

i feel like the weavers simply stopped the river flow, didnt do anything with it

[sterile jacinth]

I did not consider the haunting

[edgy nebula]

i dont think the haunting did anything to the river

[sterile jacinth]

Yea

[cedar skiff]

i still believe it was the weavers who did khann

[cedar skiff]

despite the pale light dialogue

[sterile jacinth]

Same

[cedar skiff]

yeah that one

[sterile jacinth]

I think it was the weavers through gms

[twin dragon]

Haunted bugs are still sapient to some degree

[twin dragon]

Couldn't

[spark valve]

resisting the pale light doesn't mean that gms is the one responsible for the fall, it doesn't even necessarily mean he was fighting her directly given how the game treats the citadel as an extension of her rule even when it's acting to seal her

[cedar skiff]

that to me just means that they were the last of the old hearts to fall to gms/the citadel

not that gms felled them

so what tammo just said

[twin dragon]

Which is not true

[edgy nebula]

my guess is that the weavers went up to mt. Fay and diverted the naturally occurring lava from where the river was coming form, just freezing it

[twin dragon]

since verdania fell during the haunting

[cedar skiff]

the citadel is treated as an extension of gms when it comes to verdania too

[sterile jacinth]

No one really knows about gms

[cedar skiff]

we dont know this 💔

[edgy nebula]

Could very well be ego talking, since no other hearts actually tried to directly fight gms anyway

[twin dragon]

It could be referring to haunted citadel bugs

[spark valve]

why would there be lava there

[frosty gate]

Wdym by an extension

[twin dragon]

We lwk do

[edgy nebula]

There are lava sources in mount fay

[twin dragon]

gp mentions pale light a lot and cogwork dancers are a thing

[spark valve]

verdania probably fell before the haunting

[vestal swan]

We go inside mount Fay, there's no lava

[frosty gate]

How could it have been during the Haunting if the Cogwork dancers were made to prevent such thing

[twin dragon]

oh yeah freeze lave

that works

[cedar skiff]

the humble memory crystal theory

[spark valve]

where?

[twin dragon]

He could've made the deal before the haunting

[edgy nebula]

freezing the water dawg

[twin dragon]

and gms fucked over verdania after during the haunting

[frosty gate]

It was before, of course, you said during

[twin dragon]

i did?

[frosty gate]

.

[twin dragon]

Yeah it could've

and most likely did

[edgy nebula]

in the bench room

[twin dragon]

gay prince 1 didn't necessarily sacrifice directly before verdania got nuked

[cedar skiff]

i dont think thats lava though

it seems to be just a torch

[sterile jacinth]

I read it was in the process of getting nuked

[spark valve]

is that a lava source or is it just a fire for warmth

[lilac hedge]

Isnt that just to warm you its more like fire

[cedar skiff]

unless theres other matching lava sources

[frosty gate]

GP specifically sacrified himself to make the Cogwork Dancers, which was before the Haunting

[twin dragon]

Yeah that happened

[edgy nebula]

I thought it was lava? I think there are more instances of it in the same room, ill have to look

[lilac hedge]

Not every single game mechanic gotta have lore under it

[frosty gate]

Cogwork Dancers were made to keep the song going

[twin dragon]

after that, when the haunting DID begin, verdania fell

[sterile jacinth]

It was falling for a long time

[vestal swan]

It just looks like fireplaces built into the wall, there's one right beneath the gondolas

[cedar skiff]

if verdania fell during the haunting how come green prince is just imprisoned in sinners road and not haunted too

[twin dragon]

Fuck we know

[spark valve]

it seems more likely that they're coals brought up from deep docks than actual lava

[edgy nebula]

Damn yeah youre right it’s just a fire

[lilac hedge]

Maybe he locked himself up

Cuz he was depressed idk

[cedar skiff]

holy fire

[lilac hedge]

Aint nobody know

[frosty gate]

"Aye... and glorious they were, in their time. Pharloom's end approaches, but my caves, these caves, fell to fate long before."

This heavily implies it happened before the Haunting

[sterile jacinth]

He’s too prideful to fall to the haunting

[edgy nebula]

not sure then

[vestal swan]

They also have these at the top of the slab to keep them warm

[cedar skiff]

always bet on memory crystal theory

[vestal swan]

Never

[twin dragon]

That is referring to the void

[frosty gate]

Because both Princes left

[cedar skiff]

always 🔥

[sterile jacinth]

Weavenests were probably built after gms was asleep

[twin dragon]

"Even as our lands fell to thread and ruin"

[vestal swan]

That's not about void???

[cedar skiff]

unlikely seeing as the cindril weavers fled likely before the construction of the citadel

[vestal swan]

That's about everybody being conquered by the silk spinning God

[cedar skiff]

so before gms was asleep

[sterile jacinth]

Where did you get that

[cedar skiff]

i said likely

[twin dragon]

Silksong fan lliteracy test

[cedar skiff]

i was about to follow up saying theres no exact pinpoint evidence anyway

so im just building theory on theory

[lone folio]

They have something to do with that one elevator upp to the cradle

[twin dragon]

Yes, that's exactly what im talking about

no shit

im saying what twin said is referring to the collapse of pharloom due to the void

[sterile jacinth]

More evidence points towards the weavenests being built post stone citadel

[twin dragon]

Esp since that dialogue's from act 3

[twin dragon]

I'd say they were built before

they have a shit ton of things that were supposed to be used to steal gms

[sterile jacinth]

There’s some needolin dialogue that’s like “keep her sleeping” or smth

[twin dragon]

plus we see an early prototype of the bell shrines

[sterile jacinth]

That can still work post citadel

[vestal swan]

Is both talking about the current state of things and how his kingdom fell long before, I don't get why void is being brought up specifically though? I mean yes act 3 shenanigans but he's not talking about the cause here?

[frosty gate]

I also feel "Thread and Ruin" could refer to any period.
If anything, Verdania could've finished falling with the Haunting

[cedar skiff]

bad news “Take some solace, tall bug. His soul is now free from that shell of iron, and the fate that befell your lands, this Citadel too has been claimed full by it.” i guess verdania did fall to the haunting heartbreak 💔

[spark valve]

that's just about destruction

[vestal swan]

I don't think Verdania survived to The haunting

[lone folio]

Their needolin dialogue talks about "the golden threshold" which I think is reffering to the elevator. Honestly considering that they are in that room protecting the elevator and the fact that there are so many grand reeds infront of that room indicates that pilgrims werent allowed to be there or only high status pilgrims were.

[frosty gate]

I don't think it lived much longer after both Gays left

[vestal swan]

They had a drawn out altercation with gms but I don't think it took that long

[cedar skiff]

see the thing is the cogwork dancer truce was likely upheld by the citadel

seeing as they upheld the truce with nyleth also

[frosty gate]

The fate is absolute destruction and the death of its people

[frosty gate]

They literally didn't

[sterile jacinth]

They tried to preserve Verdania you can see it in the memorium

They didn’t do a good job obviously lol

[spark valve]

the citadel didn't necessarily intentionally destroy verdania themselves they could have just not intervened to help

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah that’s my thought

“Oh your water supply is drying up? That is… too bad. We’re not upholding our end of the deal? Well sucks to suck doesn’t it”

[cedar skiff]

it was invasive and they had to remove it

well had to

but i guess they just didnt know they cant fuck with ecosystems

[sterile jacinth]

Wdym invasive

[cedar skiff]

“[] Verdanian environment exceeded - Destined to forget."

id have to get footage but im pretty sure you can see it ingame too iirc

[sterile jacinth]

That doesn’t necessarily mean that their destruction was deliberate. I read it more as it died too fast and sort of slipped through their fingers as they tried to save it in vain.

They’re like oh no, how could this have happened while not really caring at all

[cedar skiff]

tbh the reason im all in on the invasive thing is because of the fact it starts regrowing from the green princes corpse rapidly. just kinda lines up neatly

[sterile jacinth]

If it isn’t effective, then why don’t we see any evidence of it in Graymore?

Is invasive

[frosty gate]

Memorium is a zoo, it's build for entertainment, not out of respect

[sterile jacinth]

Yeah, that’s true. I just feel like if they hated it so much then it wouldn’t have its own dedicated spot there.

[frosty gate]

Why would the Citadel hate them?

[cedar skiff]

whatever they did to get rid of verdania in the first place must have been effective as fuck

[sterile jacinth]

It could be red that way

[ornate pier]

I mean the goal seems to also be preservation

[cedar skiff]

ive seen the idea float around that gms pulled down the caves down similarly to how she pulls down the boulders in the cradle and verdania was just buried

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think it’s invasive. It has its own little section in the memorium and hasn’t overtaken any of the other things. Plus, it just seems native to that area.

[cedar skiff]

but i dont knowww

[echo moon]

Take away the homosexuality and Verdania will fall apart

[ornate pier]

It seems to have spread outside though

[sterile jacinth]

Barely.

[olive quartz]

Containment fails. Memory lost. Excise outer. Maintain inner.
Shellwood stasis sustained - Remember.
Marrowlands stasis critical - Remember.
Verdanian environment exceeded - Destined to forget.

[sterile jacinth]

If anything, it’s a very delicate ecosystem

[ornate pier]

Like the verdania spikes are covering like half the first room you enter

[frosty gate]

Yes, a Zoo preserves an animal, but it's not the same as a Nature Reserve or a Wildlife Sanctuary

[olive quartz]

'verdanian environment exceeded'

[sterile jacinth]

I read that as the environment, failing and them sort of giving up on trying to fix it

Ignore the random comma

[ornate pier]

I feel like it spreading out of control still lines up with what we see ingame

[olive quartz]

environmental failure through.... exceeding?

[frosty gate]

"Exceeded" seems to imply that it went out of its regulated bounds

[ornate pier]

I don't think all those verdanian spikes are supposed to be there

[sterile jacinth]

That’s true. I don’t think it’s invasive tho

[vestal swan]

It does seem like it's growing into the hallways and has taken over like an entire quarter of the area

[frosty gate]

Invasive is a strong word, but it seems like it's really easy to spread it

I don't know the word for that

[olive quartz]

invasive

[vestal swan]

Is the failure that they fail to contain it when they were still around? Kind of weird to think they can be overrun by plants that aren't being controlled by something

[sterile jacinth]

I mean for that area specifically yes. Because it’s not really meant to grow there. But for Verdania I think it’s native

[silk dirge]

i think what happened with verdania in memorium is that verdania is full of warriors so even the simplest bugs there resisted

[cedar skiff]

i agree but im gonna crackpot theory here that verdania in the memorium symbolises the reasoning for verdanias destruction by the citadel. we know the citadel fucked with the ecosystem, verdania likely didnt fit their image and thus they erased it off entirely. of course theres the cogwork dancers issue and the variation in dialogue when it comes to the actual culprit so im going off of the assumption that it was the citadel who was responsible for it, pre haunting

[ornate pier]

It's native to verdania yes

But it seems to be growing out of control to an extent within the memorium

[olive quartz]

we're saying the verdania plants are invasive in the foreign habitat of the memorium

[frosty gate]

Which, mind you, doesn't happen with the other enclosures

[ornate pier]

Like half the room you first enter has verdanian spikes

[vestal swan]

the babies were born ready to throw hands

[olive quartz]

invasive is a relative qualifier, nothing is invasive in its natural habitat

[frosty gate]

The Cabbage Warrior Babies

Crackpot theory, is there a chance Verdania spread in Memorium because of how close it was to Cogwork Dancers? The land recognizing its ruler and all that

[cedar skiff]

the clover stags low diff the mossgrubs

[olive quartz]

ooh

[cedar skiff]

that would be fire ngl

[frosty gate]

It literally is right there

[vestal swan]

I think the plants are spreading in that direction

[ornate pier]

Why DOES verdania seem to inherently recognise its ruler though

[sterile jacinth]

Ah ok

[cedar skiff]

the gay soul that has the ability to grow land

[olive quartz]

verdania does seem to kind of grow out from its rulers

[frosty gate]

And Verdania only regrows after both Gays are there

[ornate pier]

Oh yeah gay power

[olive quartz]

^^^ like literally out from their bodies even

[vestal swan]

I'm trying to remember the map in my head but the Verrania stuff grows down and to the right? Is that towards the cogwork fight

[sterile jacinth]

I think something growing is tied to powerful bugs in the area everywhere

[frosty gate]

Old Hearts power or whatever. It seems like the Old Hearts are tied to the land very deeply

[sterile jacinth]

Like with far fields and Karmelita

[frosty gate]

Which is why I'm really convinced that the fucking Druid has a heart somewhere in the Grotto

[ornate pier]

It's so funny to me

[sterile jacinth]

I think lands mirror their leaders

[olive quartz]

verdania doesn't grow down oddly enough, and the mosslands seem to be growing down and out of the memorium themselves

[ornate pier]

Nyleth is like the most environment focused old heart and when she died

GENUINELY nothing happened to the ecosystem

NO SPECIES we know of went extinct

[sterile jacinth]

The splinters

[ornate pier]

All that happened was shellwood became less safe for pilgrims and such

[sterile jacinth]

Invaded

[ornate pier]

I feel like the splinters were already there

[olive quartz]

they weren't, they were invasive

[ornate pier]

Which is why one of nyleth's attacks seems to reference them

[sterile jacinth]

I don’t think Nyleth would have been too fond of them

[ornate pier]

They just took over when nyleth was gone

[ornate pier]

I don't think this is stated anywhere?